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Immaculate Conception In a Boa Constrictor
crudmonkey writes "Researchers have discovered a biological shocker: female boa constrictors are capable of giving birth asexually. But the surprise doesn't end there. The study in Biology Letters found that boa babies produced through this asexual reproduction — also known as parthenogenesis — sport a chromosomal oddity that researchers thought was impossible in reptiles. While researchers admit that the female in the study may have been a genetic freak, they say the findings should press researchers to re-think reptile reproduction. Virgin birth among reptiles, especially primitive ones like boas, they argue may be far commoner than ever expected."
This can only fuel the cult of Raptor Jesus to unimaginable new heights.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Isn't this what happened in Jurassic Park?
If i remember correctly, the last time this happened it didn't end well.
If women get their hands on the secret behind this, it could be the end for men
Immaculate conception != virgin birth.
A lot of people make the mistake of equating "Immaculate Conception" to the virgin birth of Jesus. Actually, it refers to the birth of Mary (mother of Jesus) being born without Original Sin. What the author is referring to is the Annunciation, which is the virgin conception of Jesus within Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception
This is not what Immaculate Conception means. The Immaculate Conception is the conception of Mary, not of Jesus, with the idea being that Mary is conceived without original sin so as to make her a proper vessel for Jesus. Then again, since snakes don't have original sin, maybe every snake conception is immaculate.
Two WW chromosomes. In mammals, we have X and Y chromosomes to determine sex—but in reptiles, fish, and of course birds, the norm for a female is ZW, and the norm for a male is ZZ. This brought to you by Tilde R: Helping Those Who Hate RTFA.
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Asexual reproduction isn't the same as virgin birth.
For all we know, that snake is a slut.
okay, so I don't really want to be a pedant, buuuut... Immaculate conception is birth without sin, that is without the blemish of original sin. What you're talking about here is virgin birth. common misconception (no pun intended). Nothing to see here, please carry on
First Spielberg/Chrichton makes movie Raptors 6ft tall before they find real ones, now female lizards can spontaneously reproduce?
Someone should be asking those guys about their reality-altering machine.
-Matt
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It's not immaculate conception, it's a virgin birth. They are different. Immaculate conception means born without original sin (as in Mary was born without original sin and thus Christ was too). If you want more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception
I know this is a common misunderstanding but it is incorrect. I'm not Catholic, I've just been corrected about it in the past and thought I'd pass on the knowledge.
I always wondered where telemarketers came from.
Also direct links to the study are here and here(pdf). The paper is "Evidence for viable, non-clonal but fatherless Boa constrictors" by Warren Booth, Daniel H. Johnson, Sharon Moore, Coby Schal, and Edward L. Vargo.
Raptor jesus..
So she is the immaculate conception, she was not born of a virgin, she was a virgin.
Jesus was born of a virgin.
What could be simpler to understand? For crying out loud people! This is GOD we're talking about!
Life, uh... finds a way
That is all.
Why can't we let people believe whatever they like? It's not like a little religion has ever hurt anyone.
That Mary may have been a boa constrictor after all
Henry Wu: You're implying that a group composed entirely of female animals will... breed?
Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way.
welcome our new immaculate boa overlords (or shall I say overladys?).
And it's actually fairly common in the insect world. Worker bees, for example, lay unfertilized eggs (which, as always, give birth to "drones," or male bees, the same as when the queen lays unfertilized eggs). But for bees, this is almost certainly a throwback to millions of years ago, before the current roles were set in stone -- as drones are incapable of fertilizing non-queens, and workers wouldn't be laying if there were any queens in residence. The modern day outcome is A Bad Day, though in years gone by, it was probably quite the neat survival mechanism. Ants and others also have similar stories. Reptiles? Reptiles do do weird stuff -- e.g., some frogs can change gender, perhaps even at will -- but parthenogenesis is a new one on me. Fun time to be a he herpetologist, and not just because of Harry Potter!
A more thorough article (with better grammar) is available at BBC News.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
For what it's worth, immaculate conception isn't unheard of in humans: http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1979/03001/Pregnancy_in_a_True_Hermaphrodite.14.aspx
Last time this sort of thing happened, I remember it didn't end well for the fellow. What was his name?
Oh well. Good luck, baby snake.
The Boa Jesus is Born!
I for one.. ah, fuck it.
they should cross these with a pig, so we can get 18' of pork ribs that self reproduce!
Virgin birth and talking snakes? Where have I heard that before?
Table-ized A.I.
Yet more proof of creationism. Just look at the word parthenogenesis. It's got the word genesis right in it!
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Interesting tidbit: The vast majority of known snake species are capable of swimming. Get a snake washed out to sea, let it drift between islands on flotsam, and with this mutation, a lone female is suddenly capable of being the foundation of a new population in a new ecosystem.
While not advantageous to individuals, this female-only birth trait would be a powerful force in mass extinction events, as it leads to a diverse set of multiply adaptive groups being formed, each specialized in a different direction for a different ecosystem niche. If a meteor equivalent hits, and all the rules of living change to some degree, you have a greater chance of having some in the right niche to survive.
The downside is if female-only births become too common, you stand a chance of losing genetic diversity in the smaller groups - so it being in the background like this, only occasionally popping up makes sense for a species that might have gained benefit from it in more ancient life cycles.
Ryan Fenton
"Virgin birth among reptiles, especially primitive ones like boas, they argue may be far commoner than ever expected." commoner = a peasant more common = correct YES I am aware I need to get laid.
If it had feathers they should definitely name it Quetzalcoatl
You're implying that a group composed entirely of female animals will... breed? No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way.
Ian Malcolm knew this in 1989.
Facts take all of the premium out of arm waving - T. Reynolds
should that be "more common"?
That's all I got.
Or is it more common?
You can't take the sky from me
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Brings new credence to the theory of Raptor Jesus.
Really?
You can't take the sky from me
Many lizards reproduce photogenically as a quick Google or wiki search will show any interested party. Less common in snakes, it is true. Boidae are hardly primitive reptiles, but they are relatively primitive snakes. The news here is that this particular individual appears to be a switch hitter, reproducing both sexually and asexually.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Glad this only works with reptiles. Otherwise imagine the masses of children from asexual lonely /. users browsing pr0n. On second thought, don't.
If anyone's thinking about cloning any dinosaurs, may this be a warning.
As the story's tag notes, the Immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus. Next time, samzenpus, aim for the slightly higher hanging fruit when going for the cheap pun.
The Immaculate Conception was the conception of _Mary_ conception so that she would not be burdened by Original Sin, leaving her a suitable vessel for her to carry The Christ Child. It's "Mary _of_ the Immaculate Conception, or _who_ _was_ immaculately conceived.
That isn't even my mythos, but it always amazes me how many people don't have the first clue about the facts of their own. Wasn't there a post here recently that said the people who know the least about faith are the faithful, or maybe it was that the people who know the most about religion were the atheists and agnostics.
So by one view all animals are immaculately conceived since animals don't have original sin. By another the poster is simply wrong. By all views this is kinda a non-story.
The snake suffered or gave example of androgenesis which is a completely different thing all together.
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Many lizards reproduce photogenically. A quick Google or wiki search will show any interested party many examples. Snakes are not primitive reptiles as the story says, but boas are relatively primitive snakes. The story here is that this individual appears to be a switch hitter, reproducing both sexually and asexually.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Whoever tagged this 'welcometojurrasicpark' is my new hero.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Doesn't this just prove that not only did Jesus exist as the Only Way (tm), but that he was immaculately conceived as well, from some type of half-woman-half-reptile asexually-reproducing demigod?
Systemd: the PulseAudio of init systems
So we finally know the truth: Jesus was an asexually-reproduced reptile man of some kind, with genetically-imbued magical powers derived from his innate chromosomal oddity.
Systemd: the PulseAudio of init systems
More Common Also First
Where's the fun in that?
In the beginning, there was null.
Although science may gasp at immaculate conception in a snake Christians have it from an authoritative source that Virgin births in human females has happened at least once.
Fine Jeff you were right. But I still refuse to believe your next claim about hacking alien computer systems with a Macintosh.
Isn't there a species of lizards which are entirely female? They don't exactly reproduce asexually, if I recall, since they apparently need lesbian lizard sex to trigger the weird baby-lizard making process.
Is that a technical term?
The game.
Through advanced simulations we have found what this baby will look like in 5 years
Monstar L
I don't think "Immaculate Conception" means what you think it means. It doesn't mean getting pregnant without having sex.
Isn't there a species of south american lizards that's entirely female? The don't exactly reproduce asexually though. They need some dry-humping action to get the process started.
1) virgin birth != immaculate conception
2) why the completely unnecessary religious reference? It looks like yet another attempt to insert flamebait in the summary.
Immaculate Conception was Mary, not Jesus
It has nothing to do with "virgin birth".
refers to Mary being born free of the original sin, not the virginal conception of Jesus.
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the Virgin Birth of Christ. The Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary without the taint of Original Sin.
Learn to spell: nickel, missile, lose, solely, amendment, speech, kernel, probably, ridiculous, deity, hierarchy, versus
Mary was a snake! It's obvious!
1) immaculate conception != virgin birth
2) why have an unnecessary and irrelevant religious reference at all? It looks like an attempt to put flamebait in the summary (again).
On your knees, you heathen!
Mary the mother of Jesus was a snake.
This is quite amazing.
Essentially if the female is unable to find any mate in this year's mating season, it still have the option to reproduce regardless. There is a penalty of having exactly the same genetic code, but I guess it is a much better option than dying without passing any genes at all.
At the same time if the male is available, she can make use of all the advantages of extra genotype permutations that comes with sexual reproduction. It really is a win-win!
This raises the question though: Since it is such an advantage, why is it so rare to in nature to have the ability to reproduce asexually and sexually? Wouldn't evolution favor species that can reproduce with less obstacles?
The article says that the snake gave birth to a litter of all female snakes, only with a peculiar chromosomal makeup -- WW instead of ZW (female) or ZZ (male).
What I wonder is what the significance of WW is versus ZW, since YY in human terms isn't viable.
I also have to wonder what good this is in nature if all such snakes can produce are female offspring. On at least the surface -- unless asexual reproduction is common -- this be a seemingly not-so-useful adaptation in terms of survival.
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
I wonder.. Immaculate you say? Untainted conception? That headline begs hype! When asexual is what one means, asexual is what one must use. :| Bah!
Geekism is your _only_ God!
Wasn't this part of the premise of Jurassic Park? Nature finds a way.
getting to be a bit everydayish........don't you think. Wonder how the revivalists are gonna handle it?
A closed mouth gathers no foot.
The "immaculate conception" refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary, and has nothing to do with virgin births.
Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.
people poo hoo'd Jurassic Park for show this!
Thank god that human females cant do this yet, otherwise none of the lucky few on here would ever get laid.
...first post? There must be a mistake.
Do not attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by incompetence.
In Catholic Theology, the Immaculate Conception doesn't refer to the Virgin Birth of Jesus, but to the conception of Mary without original sin.
I guess it's possible that these baby boa constrictors are especially sinless, but you probably won't be able to decide on that issue by reading Biology Letters.
I notice that this article is slowly working it's way down the homepage without even a First Post - perhaps all you men feel slightly inadequate now there's proof that yes, we women can do without you! Cue Anonymous Coward's relentless troll-biting and the silent army of female-hating Mods! GO!
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I notice that this article is slowly working it's way down the front page without even a first post - perhaps all you men feel slightly inadequate with this proof that, yes, we women can do without you! Cue relentless flood of Anonymous Coward biters, and the silent army of woman-troll-hating mods... First "Rachel is a snake" comment get's modded redundant 'cos I've already pre-empted you! GO!
This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
There goes my mental model that all snakes are evil sinners! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception
I seem to recall reading about this many years ago. Not seeing anything on the web older than a few days though. As I recall it only happens under certain circumstances relating to the age of the snake and specific environmental factors including availability (or lack?) of food, temperature, humidity(?) etc.
Anybody else hear this before?
Cue Anonymous Cowards relentless biting and the silent army of woman-hating mods... GO!
First person to call Rachel a snake gets modded "Redundant" - cos I've pre-empted you this time!
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I know no one actually cares, but the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Virgin Mary, which was accomplished through the usual means, but was free of Original Sin. It is not the virgin birth of Jesus.
sic transit gloria mundi
Immaculate Conception is a whole 'nother thing than parthenogenesis. Has everything to do with (not having) Original Sin, and nothing to do with the messiness of sex leading to conception.
IT WASNT!
- I'd prefer not to.
Praise be to Boa Jesus!
RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
The Immaculate Conception is the Roman Catholic teaching that God kept Mary from having original sin and a sin nature from the beginning of her conception.
The Virgin Birth refers to the Christian belief (of all stripes) that Jesus was conceived while Mary was still a virgin.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The boa then proceeded to test the fences, looking for weak spots.
Wonder if this happens in humans too. Prob the female wouldn't be believed in that case though.
First Post! Wait a minute..... I think something is wrong.....
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Chaos theory at work, ladies and gents. You were warned.
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
This is why I love science as much as I do: if not for science, we wouldn't have learned that real virgin birth happens in serpents.
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Wow. I've never seen a story go dead like this on Slashdot.
Server problems, or just a boring story?
Surely somebody can come up with something witty and biblically snide. Snakes? Immaculate conceptions? I mean, come on!
I for one find the idea of snakes creepy, and self-replicating snakes even creepier. Brr.
Reptiles suck.
-FL
and jesus was the son of the devil?
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Virgin birth of a serpent. That's gotta count for something.
http://news.discovery.com/animals/boa-constrictor-virgin-birth.html http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/e0l98/a_boa_constrictor_has_a_virgin_birth_resulting_in/ saw this on digg a few days ago
I don't know much about biology. But can anyone explain why so few animals exhibit asexual reproduction? Has it "just not happened", or are there factors that make it unlikely for particular instances of it to be successful, or is it a suboptimal way of doing things in terms of continuation of a species?
It might be technically correct, but "far commoner" is just bad writing.
That's virgin birth, not immaculate conception. Immaculate conception is what the story tells how Mary was born: no original sin. I'm not even Christian and this is clear to me.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
I believe the term you're looking for (and finally spit out in the last sentence) was "virgin birth." Immaculate conception is something else entirely. Specifically, it's the uniquely Catholic doctrine, developed as part of the cult of the Virgin Mary over the past 500 years (finalized only about 100 years ago), that Mary was conceived without sin. God put a kind of "sin shield" around the egg as it was being fertilized apparently, and so she was born without the taint of the original sin (i.e., "immaculate"). Catholics would claim that she was thus made fit to bear the son of God. This whole notion is rejected by Protestants (Martin Luther explicitly argued against the growing importance of Mary in Church mythology back in the 16th century). Again, bottom line: immaculate conception refers to MARY's birth (without sin), not Jesus's (without sex), and is not a part of non-Catholic Christian doctrine.
Look, I'm no partisan for organized religion, but if you're going to throw around religious terms in an effort to make a story seem more interesting, at least use the right ones. <BiffTannen> You sound like a damn fool when you say it wrong.</BiffTannen>
Of course, given the role a snake played in the creation of the original sin, a boa constrictor being born immaculately really would be news!
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Stupid title. Immaculate Conception does NOT mean virgin birth. The former (a member of a fallen race being free from Original Sin from conception) is a metaphysical concept that cannot be observed empirically. The latter (a female giving birth without having prior sexual intercourse) may, in fact, be observed empirically.
Sorry for the irrelevant comment. Anyway, interesting article!
- Francis Ocoma
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Stupid title. Immaculate Conception does NOT mean virgin birth. The former (a member of a fallen race being free from Original Sin from conception) is a metaphysical concept that cannot be observed empirically. The latter (a female giving birth without having prior sexual intercourse) may, in fact, be observed empirically.
Sorry for the irrelevant comment. Anyway, interesting article!
- Francis Ocoma
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If parthenogenesis is occurring, it's hardly conception, is it?
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
Immaculate conception doesn't refer to the virgin birth (of Christ) but rather the doctrine that Mary herself was born immaculate (free from original sin), which has no implication of virgin birth whatsoever.
This may sound like a grammar nit, but I found it really distracting to read "commoner" in the summary. Although "commoner" can technically be used as an adjective, it is strongly discouraged due to the potential for confusion with the noun "commoner" which in some sentence constructions can function as an adjective with a somewhat different meaning. For example:
"The commoner dress of the era was rags."
This can be read in two ways:
Hence you should always prefer "more common" over "commoner" for the comparative form of "common". For consistency, "most common" is also preferred to "commonest".
Just to get back on topic, I'm not sure why people would be surprised by this. Parthenogenesis has been observed in a number of reptile species. The interesting thing is the chromosomal oddity, which was that the sex chromosomes were inconsistent with those normally seen in sexual reproduction. (In snakes, females have two different chromosomes, while males have two of the same sex chromosome; in this case, the children formed by parthenogenesis had two of the opposite chromosome---a combination previously observed only in fish and amphibians.) Interesting, odd, and so on.
I'm not clear why this particular finding suggests that parthenogenesis is more common than previously imagined, or at least not significantly more. It's just one more reptile species that can be added to the better part of a dozen previously known to reproduce in this way. I think if it were a lot more common than previously believed, then we would already know that reptiles could exhibit this chromosomal combination. The fact that we didn't know this before actually suggests to me that it is much less common than previously believed. Maybe I'm missing something.
BTW, is this really the first post after almost three hours? Yikes. I guess the love of science really is dead in the world. :-D
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News? Come on, we knew this already from Jurassic Park!
Daphne dear, I think we should do an inventory of the terrarium.
The Virgin Mary never thought her spawn would be Bind-on-Account.
Raptor Jesus will return!
Don't think the Virgin Mary ever thought her offspring would be Bind-on-Account. Makes you wonder what would have happened to organized religion if someone had already conceived (terrible pun, i know) the morning-after pill (aka. swift punch to the stomach)
http://www.myths.com/pub/comics/smbc/comics/20080303.gif
"Researchers have discovered a biological shocker: female boa constrictors are capable of giving birth asexually. But the surprise doesn't end there. The study in Biology Letters found that boa babies produced through this asexual reproduction—also known as parthenogenesis—sport a chromosomal oddity that researchers thought was impossible in reptiles. While researchers admit that the female in the study may have been a genetic freak, they say the findings should press researchers to re-think reptile reproduction. Virgin birth among reptiles, especially primitive ones like boas, they argue may be far commoner than ever expected."
really?
Virgin birth != immaculate conception
Virgin birth = conceived without sex
immaculate conception - conceived (by sex!) without the taint of original sin
According to traditional (Catholic) Christian beliefs, Christ was born of a virgin, and MARY (not Christ) was born without the taint of original sin ... quite a few years earlier.
So the two terms refer to two totally distinct events: the immaculate conception occurred a generation before the virgin birth.
I am anarch of all I survey.
Had to say it... after all if Jesus was immaculately conceived, maybe Mary was actually a boa constrictor!
There might still be hope for the slashdot crowd!
So, this is proof that Mary was actually a Boa Constrictor?
Oh, and FP, I think.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
Didn't they watch Jurassic park?
Martin
Whilst both absurd concepts, they are not the same thing. The immaculate conception was something invented by the catholic church to plug a loophole in the story about a mere human giving birth to a god.
Immaculate conception is not the same concept as virgin birth. If the original sin of Adam and Eve have tainted all births since Genesis, consider what the serpent's offspring have had to deal with.
To the religious minded it may be even more inconceivable that a snake be born without sin than without a father.
Do Boa Constrictors really labour under the burden of Original Sin?
Interesting implications if it turns out to be possible in humans too!
Another child left behind.
"Commoner" is somebody not of the gentry.
OTOH, cool story, half-clones. Almost like an egg cell divided and then recombined somehow.
... This is absolutely fascinating. However, I suppose I might as well be the person to point out that while this is a virgin birth, it's not an "immaculate conception" since that apparently has do with a Catholic doctrine regarding Mary being born free of original sin.
We now return you to your discussion of snake genetics.
for Raptor Jesus.
I know the fine article mention virgin birth, by why mix in immaculate conception ? Just name the article "parthenogenesis in boa Constrictor". Why mix in christian myth with biology ?
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interesting and all, but the headline is nonsense. immaculate conception refers to Jesus' mother being herself born free of original sin.
The debate about whether Boas have original sin is theological and not biological.
...you might want to read up on the immaculate conception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception#Common_misinterpretations
...you might want to read up on the immaculate conception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception#Common_misinterpretations
The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary (a child conceived without the taint of original sin). The Virgin Birth refers to the birth of Jesus (a child born to a virgin). They are not at all the same thing. You are approximately the 6,696,844,874th person to get them confused.
For those wondering about the calculation:
6,697,254,041 - world population (from Google)
- 409,166 Catholic priests (source)
- 1 (me)
---------------------
6,696,844,874
Komodo Dragons are capable of parthenogenesis as well apparently.
sudo mount --milk --sugar
Komodo dragons are capable of parthenogenesis as well apparently.
sudo mount --milk --sugar
Komodo Dragons can also reproduce by parthenogenesis.
sudo mount --milk --sugar
Considering what young females of our species tell their moms, virgin birth in humans is not a rare thing either.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
In Catholicism, the Immaculate Conception of Mary (Mary being conceived without sin) is NOT the same as the Virgin Birth of Jesus(Jesus being conceived without an earthly father).
In Catholicism, the Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived without sin) is NOT the same as the Virgin Birth(Jesus being conceived without an earthly father).
He told me the Bible was all lizard people
Apparently Komodo Dragons are capable of Parthenogenesis as well.
sudo mount --milk --sugar
The word that should have been used is parthenogenesis, not immaculate conception. The two are NOT the same.
Immaculate conception is the belief that Mary was protected by God from original sin when she was born, that Mary did not have a sin nature, and was, in fact, sinless.
"Female boa constrictors are capable of giving birth asexually" - Shocker indeed. I thought snakes laid eggs, rather than giving birth.
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Virgin birth among reptiles... they argue may be far commoner than ever expected
It's been established scientific fact for over a decade and a half that anything with reptile DNA can reproduce asexually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park_(film)
Extremely interesting. What the summary doesn't point out is that the boa had in fact mated with multiple males before this virgin birth, so in fact it could have used the traditional method too. I thought animals only did this when they had no access to sperm.
Jesus was the snake all along?
The son of God was actually born to a snake?
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no
Does this mean Jesus Christ was Slytherin?
</pedant>
Oh, I'm being eaten
By a boa constrictor,
A boa constrictor,
A boa constrictor,
I'm being eaten by a boa constrictor,
And I don't like it--one bit.
Well, what do you know?
It's nibblin' my toe.
Oh, gee,
It's up to my knee.
Oh my,
It's up to my thigh.
Oh, fiddle,
It's up to my middle.
Oh, heck,
It's up to my neck.
Oh, dread,
It's upmmmmmmmmmmffffffffff . . .
Shel Silverstein
"Commoner"?! - You mean "more common". I guess you'll tell me that 'commoner' sounds betterer....
I'm trying to understand what in TFA means that the snake was born without original sin. It's been a while since I read the Bible, but I seem to remember somewhere near the start that the snake was cast out of the garden of eden for being a bit of a git and had its legs removed. A snake without original sin would therefore have legs.
Can we just say asexual reproduction when we mean asexual reproduction, and leave misquoting the Bible to Christians please?
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I guess this explains why there are so many mothafuckin' snakes on this mothafuckin' plane.
Make America grate again!
Comments not working on slashdot?
You couldn't be more wronger!
I watched a doco last night where Stephen Fry claimed female Komodo Dragons were capable of virgin births.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
And apparently female boa constrictors are able to be born without original sin too (what Immaculate Conception really talked about; Virgin Birth is a separate idea).
Written by a commoner.
We meet again.
The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, the mother of God. This was not a virgin birth. The doctrine of the immaculate conception states that Mary was conceived w/out the stain of original sin. I would suggest you change your headline.
You assume that (non-human) animals have sin. I know of nothing in Christian theology that indicates that they do.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
From the BBC article: "In such species, all known examples of babies that are the product of parthenogenesis are male, carrying a ZZ chromosomal arrangement."
But from the MSNBC article: "One other interesting fact about these snakes is that if the offspring can reproduce sexually, all offspring they produce will be female," Booth said. "They are genetically incapable of producing male offspring. Only by their female offspring can males be produced again."
Doesn't that contradict each other?
Snakes are probably the best candidate you can find, for an animal that does have it. A bit more deserving than newborns actually, don't you think?
One that hath name thou can not otter
I thought that referred to Jesus being born without sin rather than to Mary being a virgin.
Which is quite ironic given the part the snake plays in the garden of eden...
It's all crap anyway because at the time it was fairly standard practice for children born out of wedlock was to claim that they are the children of a God. There was a whole societal mechanism for this centered around certain temples.
According to the modern bible the conception was immaculate at least in part because there was no sex and thus no sinfulness. But saying that there was no father is a well-established way of saying you don't know who the father is. Jesus was a bastard (as per the fucking book, but only if you read it in the sense of the times) and not a literal child of God. He only claims his godhead in the works of Paul.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This prooves that like Komodo Dragons, conceiving child with or without complements of other supplementing Hosts, would prove all Life is a redundant Caste System.
If only a Female is available and no male around, then becomes a woman to conceive a male embryo without foetus stage. ... that's why we have Slashdot.
If a Female and Male are around, then becomes a woman for the male to deposit and complement to an foetus
If only a Male is available and no female around,
I don't mean to go off topic but dude, get a DNA test. If it were your son, would you want him to be fatherless because of you?
how is babby formed?
You totally missed his point. His point was that the article describes asexual reproduction (i.e. virgin birth), but the headline refers to immaculate conception - which has little to do with virgin birth.
In the biblical sense, immaculate conception was a full generation before the virgin birth. Not 9 months!
If it were your son, would you want him to be fatherless because of you?
I think it is easy to conclude that millions of American men have said "I don't care". The ones yelling "It isn't mine!" instead of "lets get a DNA test" are prime candidates.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
This is probably why there was so many dang anacondas and boas in that movie Snakes on the plane! They just kept reproducing.
And it only took them one thousand eight hundred and some odd years to determine this to be the case. Kudo's to taking the time to get it right.
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854[31]
>I'm not Catholic
Heck, I was raised without religion, and have been an atheist as long as I have known what it means, but I know what immaculate conception really is.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
"Then again, since snakes don't have original sin..."
Mmmm, I recall a snake being instrumental in creating the fucking original sin in the first place.
So god snapped his fingers and mary was born without sin? One can only wonder why he didn't do so for an entire generation of humans.
Unfortunately most "believers" don't know much about their doctrine nor about their bible.
Would you be so kind as to quote chapter and verse on this immaculate conception doctrine, please?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
It was probably quoted from an idiocratic Tea Party member.
They seem to have their own version of the English language and spelling.
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
Didn't Jeff Goldblum predict this happening in the movie? "Life finds a way" ?
This is why you NEVER mix dinosaur DNA with frogs! "We won't make those same mistakes again." "Of course not, you'll make a whole new set of mistakes!" (The second film had some magnificent sarcastic dialog).
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
As you probably know, Roman Catholic "doctrine" doesn't come directly from scriptures, but it's mediated by tradition and Magisterium, i.e. dogmas are essentially whatever the Pope decides must believe.
Of course controversial scriptural sources are cited to support this dogma, but like anything theological or mariological (!), they're essentially mental masturbation.
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Your disbelief is as irrational as you claim believers' beliefs are. There's no way of knowing if, in fifty thousand years of homo sapiens, a human was born through parthenogenesis. This time it's a reptile and thought impossible, a couple of years ago there was a whale born without the aid of a father and that, too, was thought impossible.
I suspect that parthenogenesis in most species is very rare, but may occur in all species given enough time.
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That just depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I'm sure many fundamental Christians would agree with you but I think think some radical Islamist might twist that as "One of the many lies upon which most of the infadels belief system is based".
I mean, a sensationalist headline is a sensationalist headline, but I don't think they were -entirely- in the wrong for using it in the headline. It was the easiest way to convey the idea (Asexual reproduction) without confusing it with what everyone would think of if they had simply said Asexual reproduction (Growing 2 of everything and then splitting).
Well, to be fair, a female XX chromosome pair cannot produce an XY egg....
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The idea that sex == sin is ridiculous since God basically told people to go out and have loads of sex. Directly.
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You mean the whole "Go Forth and Multiply" line?
I don't think he specified Asexually or not, or who knows, maybe he just wanted us to work on our Mad Minute Math skills.
Then again, since snakes don't have original sin
According to the book, snakes are the origin of sin.
Inducing man to have original sin does not give snakes original sin.
Only Roman Catholics believe in this doctrine.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
You assume that your post is on-topic. I see nothing in it that indicates it is.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Thank you! I came in, hoping this was pointed out. It grates on me ears (or whatever it is it grates when you hear the words you are reading).
Right now Michael Crichton is regretting that whole "frog dna" thing and Jimi Hendrix, Winston Churchill and Copernicus are getting tired of hearing about it.
Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
This is a Roman Catholic doctrine that is not supported in the bible. It is an interesting data point in the constellation of Roman Catholic prejudices because it violates doctrinal prinicpiles mentioned throughout the Bible, contradicts the spoken and written words of the prophets, and invalidates, to some degree, the stated mission and objective of Christ's trip to earth. It also belies a heavy handed attempt by the RCC to, as it is oft accused, manipulate the text and meaning of the Bible to denigrate women in general.
The mechanics of Original Sin do not require Mary to be free from sin to conceive Christ. Original Sin was created by Adam, as he knew exactly what he was doing when he ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree. He chose the woman, and disobedience, over God, and in doing so abidcated his authority over the woman and his responsibilies to her and for her. Since then Original Sin has been transmitted to all humanity from our seminal father, Adam, and is continually passed on through the male. The premise that Christ was born from a woman without a human genetic father frees Him from the inheritance of Original Sin and allows Him to live a sinless existence on Earth.
Elevating Mary to a sinless state implies that women bear an additional burden of sin that the text does not state. Consistency in the Bible is maintained without the additional papal decree of MAry's Immaculate Conception. One can only guess at the motivations of the RCC for adding this point, however many view it as an attempt to, once again, lay blame at the feet of Eve for Original Sin thereby imputing an illegitimate guilt debt to women that can be exploited by the church.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
There was something wrong with the comments last night, and all the people posting the Immaculate Conception != Parthenogenesis things didn't see each other's comments. They don't need the karma hits of all of these Redundant mods.
...I think some radical Islamist might twist that...
Just shows exactly how little you understand religion in general and Islam specifically.
Islam does not view the Hebrew bible or the Christian's "New Testament" as anything other than revered holy scriptures which prelude their book, the Qur'an. Muslims follow an even stricter code of nutrition than we Jews do for the exact same reasons, whereas Christians actually deviate from God's original laws to make up their own. Even the crazy Wahabbis do not ignore the fact that Jews and Christians have elevated status among the non-believers, they are actually misinterpreting a very different set of Qur'annic rules which are political in nature rather than having to do with faith and obedience.
Wars happen when ignorant jackasses make up shit to drive their own political agenda. Bin Laden didn't just use religion as an excuse the way George W. Bush did- he was actually following his twisted convictions. If you think Bush's "religion" is any less dangerous, you've got a lot to learn about reality.
Except that according to the Koran, Christians are not infidels.
Like every religion, Islam has it's radical extremists who pick and choose whatever parts of their holy scripture serve their decidedly less than spiritual agenda.
That's what I assume Bluefoxlucid meant too.
God also said you shouldn't "spill your seed in vain" which is where the "Catholic church vs. masturbation & condoms" nonsense comes from. So it's not like he commanded us to have orgies or various other possible interpretations of "have loads of sex." The point was exactly as you said- to multiply and fill the earth.
As for the "sex == sin" thing, that's not a Jewish notion- but rather all about denying the rejection of pleasure. Again- thank the Catholics for that ray of sunshine. The Hebrew bible contains a lot of restrictions (e.g. adultery, bestiality, anal- if you read it that way) but I can't think of a single place where it says you're not allowed to enjoy it when you aren't practicing something forbidden.
Back to multiplying- given how we've pretty much overpopulated the planet already and infant mortality is dropping even among the poorest nations, it's obviously time to reinterpret all those laws under modern conditions. I'm wouldn't advise holding one's breath until this new pope does that, nor for the more conservative Rabbis in my own faith to realize having ten children today is morally wrong.
Bravo, whoever you are, AC... I AM a follower of Christ and, while I am not a bible scholar, both my father and brother are. Parent comment is an exquisite description of the confusion at hand regarding 'original sin' and 'immaculate conception'... and the origins of these doctrines within Catholic history.
If you read the bible it is pretty clear why, God is a bit of a dick.
"Immaculate Conception" is not a phrase that appears in the Bible, and even if it was, misusing it, unless the misuse was in a purported quote from the bible, wouldn't be misquoting the Bible.
The mistake here is making an reference to inapplicable Catholic doctrine, not misquoting the Bible.
So, what happens when the offspring of this snake breed with a male? What DNA is lost in a female-only "clone" type reproduction?
It's all just chemistry. Do we know enough to know that an X chromosome can't become a Y chromosome? There are only four "letters" in the DNA code.
Free Martian Whores!
Hell, most people still think Jesus was crucified through the palms.
Such as myself. Over the past week, I've been researching the differences in doctrine between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity. The JWs currently believe the stake on which Jesus was crucified didn't have a patibulum (crossbeam) and that Jesus instead died with his hands over his head. I came across numerous anti-JW sites, including one page mentioning studies on cadavers showing two holes in the bone structure of the human palm that are strong enough to hold up the body's weight.
There are four base pairs arranged in sequences that ravel and unravel according to enzymes in the cytoplasm. These sequences open in strips called "Genes" which themselves attract complementary base pairs to produce miniature copies of DNA strands (copies of genes) which are called "RNA." The RNA goes into some kind of node thing I forget what it's called.. it's basically a giant zipper mechanism that attracts amino acids and protein fragments (chains of amino acids) to assemble proteins.
There are only two values in binary code. Can a 15 megapixel image of Brittany Spears' vagina turn into a copy of Basket Case in high quality Ogg Vorbis? ... sure, if you have a carefully constructed file to XOR it with, and a determined process to do so intentionally. The code on the X and Y chromosomes is not a slight truncation or alteration; these things are completely different.
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Raptor Mary?
Sand's overrated... it's just tiny little rocks.
Snakes are probably the best candidate you can find, for an animal that does have it. A bit more deserving than newborns actually, don't you think?
I thought all it said was that it was Satan in the form of a snake, and not an actual one? Poor bastards got their legs removed for something they didn't even do... musta been one hell of a costume.
If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
You're forgetting about the first generation.
If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
Widespread misunderstanding of catholic mythology. Immaculate conception is the conception of a human being within its mother WITHOUT the stain of original sin. The goddess virgin mary, mother of jesus was the only case of immaculate conception i am aware of. But of course, all reptiles are born free of original sin, is it not so? that is why they do not need to have a religion.
True, but consider your statement "Can a 15 megapixel image of Brittany Spears' vagina turn into a copy of Basket Case in high quality Ogg Vorbis? ... sure, if you have a carefully constructed file to XOR it with, and a determined process to do so intentionally".
It comes down to the Infinite monkey theorem. Homo sapiens has been around for well over fifty thousand years; not infinity, but a damned long time in comparison to a human lifetime. Yes, the odds are against it, but it may be that the odds are against life itself. We certainly haven't found any indication of it anywhere but Earth yet.
Free Martian Whores!
since snakes don't have original sin, maybe every snake conception is immaculate.
Wait.. wasn't a snake behind the whole "go ahead and eat the fruit, Eve" idea? No free passes for snakes on Original Sin!
No, it doesn't work that way. You asked if an X chromosome could become a Y chromosome. What you are asking is if strawberry jello can become solid gold. Yes there's a path; no it doesn't happen without a ton of energy input and intentional control. They are not similar and there is not a killswitch mechanism that trips over such a change.
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"Two or three years ago it was just another snake cult, now... they're everywhere." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082198/
It's not like abrahamic areas managed to avoid directly associating some animals with "evil", one way or another. See: cats; or water animals without scalds (what else can this be about if not some ancient evil?)
One that hath name thou can not otter
Do we know enough to know that an X chromosome can't become a Y chromosome?
While that's highly unlikely, it's also a "straw man" that's not at all necessary to the discussion.
It's well known in medical circles that humans and other species sometimes produce XX males and XY females. The details of how it happens aren't quite known yet, but there's some evidence in the scientific literature.
It's true that XX males and XY females tend to be intermediate in their secondary sexual characteristics, though they are often within the "normal" range.
There have been a few disputes over this in professional sports, mostly cases of XY females who are physically larger and stronger than the typical female. When their genetic makeup is discovered, people often try to get them barred from professional sports on the grounds that they're "not really female". So far, the courts have upheld their rights to compete, on the grounds that if you have female reproductive organs, you're legally female, no matter how big or strong you might be. (And there are XX females that are large and strong, too.)
(Anyone know of a case in which an XY female was successfully barred from sports competition? I'd think it has to have happened, but I don't recall reading about it.)
In any case, even if Jesus was parthenogenetically produced, and was an XX male, it wouldn't imply any sort of magical effect was at work. Such things happen in a number of mammals. It also happens in birds, but their genetics make XX individuals male and XYs female. Thus, domestic turkeys are known to occasionally hatch from unfertilized eggs. They are always XX, and they're male. (So maybe Jesus was actually a turkey? ;-)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
is now the serpentarium.
Just... ugh. Could you possibly know less about what you're talking about?
Sure, I could know so little that I won't even log in to produce a record.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"