2011 MacBook Pros Confirmed To Crash Under Load

sammcj writes "2011 MacBook crashing under heavy load?... you are not alone. While trying to figure out what was wrong with my fancy new MacBook I soon realized that the issue is very widespread."

Comments

Well of course

[Dunbal]

You get what you pay for. Oh wait. Defend this one, Apple fans.

Re:Well of course

[mikael_j]

Do you want a list of Dell models that my employer has concluded have design flaws or do you just want to fling mud at Apple? (here's a hint: Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple).

Re:Well of course

[WrongSizeGlass]

You get what you pay for. Oh wait. Defend this one, Apple fans.

This is a 'Crisitunity' for Apple. They never do a good job addressing these things which is surprising considering they do such a great job with pre-sale marketing & PR.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, not to be impolite, but I must ask.
Are you sure you can?, won't your MacBook crash while handling such a huge list?

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Difference being you don't pay £1000 for the spec included in a £400 Dell. (Sadly, not an understatement)
I have an iMac and it's great - the hardware is fantastic. However I expect it work perfectly and have been tested very thoroughly.
I have a machine that plays Crysis on full graphics sat next to it that cost a little under the price of the Mac. Stupid.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Pre-sale marketing & PR gets the sale (i.e. money).
Everything else doesn't matter. The people will buy whatever you sell them and keep buying, even if it doesn't work.

Re:Well of course

[mikael_j]

Oh, I've never owned a Macbook. My only portable machines at the moment are a Lenovo Ideapad and a Dell Precision M4440 (the Ideapad being the reliable one, the M4400 seems to enjoy having random drivers crash).

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Not every company has the balls to charge 2k for 1k in hardware, and 1k in software that is built off of free software... that then freezes under load.

Re:Well of course

[mjwx]

You get what you pay for. Oh wait. Defend this one, Apple fans.

This story is false and any evidence to the contrary merely coincidence.

Further more, we are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

At least with Dells you only pay like half or a third of the price of a MacBook...

Re:Well of course

[mjwx]

Do you want a list of Dell models that my employer has concluded have design flaws or do you just want to fling mud at Apple? (here's a hint: Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple).

As long as you provide a list of Dell models that did not have problems of this magnitude.

Then provide a list of Apple models that have had serious design flaws and compare it to the list of those that haven't.

Dell release 20 or so laptop models or more a year, Apple releases 3, the price of failure is higher for Apple because they have not diversified as much as Dell.

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

Difference being you don't pay £1000 for the spec included in a £400 Dell. (Sadly, not an understatement)

Oh? Which £400 dell has a quad core sandy bridge i7 in it?

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

To an extent, yes, every manufacturer has released machines with hardware problems. However, the "Apple Tax" is supposedly justified by machines with premium engineering that "just work". This sure sounds a whole lot like a serious cooling problem, something that's simply unacceptable for a midrange laptop that costs $2k

Re:Well of course

[thetoadwarrior]

Last time I went and customised a laptop to have everything my macbook pro like a lit keyboard and bluetooth (yes Dell considered that an extra) it was reach the same price. Once I would buy the same sized SSD from another company to replace the hard drive it would have cost the same if not more and it still would have been in a shitty plastic case rather than a nice aluminium case that is dead silent and cool something you won't get from a dell.

I'm also willing to put good money it won't run as long as the macbook on its battery.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

It only freezes when people are holding it wrong. If they would just use it properly there is no problem. But, just to be nice guys, Apple will give people a free "cooling case" if they call in with their problem.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not do much real work on your Macbook Pro if you consider it dead silent. Sure it is, while browsing the web. Try compiling or doing any graphics intensive games. Spins up quite loud.

Re:Well of course

[danbuter]

So you were just trolling?

Re:Well of course

[amiga3D]

Apple has made lemons before, actually called Road Apples. From time to time they do make mistakes and of course when you charge a premium for hardware it's inevitable that you'll catch a lot of grief when you mess up. They tend to be slow to admit mistakes too. When they finally realize it's inevitable they'll bite the bullet and fix the problem but in the meantime it can be ugly. If I bought a laptop for 2 grand and it choked on video transcoding and other processor intensive stuff like these seem to be doing I'd pitch a bitch too.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

having a 2M+ UID is worse than posting AC

Re:Well of course

[philj]

Having read the linked thread, it looks like it's an ATI graphics card driver problem. You can still ssh into a machine that has "crashed under load".

Re:Well of course

[amiga3D]

Cheap Dell's are a roll of the dice. I've got a 1545 that works flawlessly now that I wiped the malware off that it came with and installed Ubuntu. Not bad for 400 bucks.

Re:Well of course

[Dunbal]

You don't get a sandy bridge i7 in a Mac for 1000 pounds, either. Your point?

Re:Well of course

[nOw2]

That's not my experience with the unibody machines. Thermals on the 2009 MBP 15" are really good - yes, full CPU will get the fans up to 6200RPM but I'm really very impressed overall. It takes a lot to get them to spin up and even then they're nice and quiet considering the RPM they're doing.

Contrast that with the plastic bodied ~2007 MacBook - I found that the single fan would spin up high at the slightest provocation and be louder than the two in the MBP for the same RPM.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a hint: Every manufacturer hasn't a cult following, unlike Apple

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple release its share of hardware with problems, it's inevitable really. I was bitten myself by a problem with the EU version of the AppleTV 2 a while back, it inverted colors randomly when connected to some TV models of some particular brands (it's since been fixed.) The problem with Apple is that they work behind the scenes on a fix but they don't communicate that to their customers at all and they'll rarely admit to any kind of problem in public. This is frustrating but they do actually fix their problems which is more than can be said for some other manufacturers.

Re:Well of course

[Patch86]

Dells are cheap mass-produced trash- you get what you pay for, and no less than you expect.

If you pay nearly twice the going rate for a premium product, you might expect it to be somewhat closer to flawless. You expect your £100k Bentley to run perfectly, while you might forgive the Chevvy Matiz given away free with your Happy Meal for breaking down every time it rains.

Yes yes, I know, oblig.

Re:Well of course

[Posting=!Working]

Go ahead and make that list. I'll make my own list here. Alternatives when you need a new laptop and all your software is for Mac and Apple's manufacturing and/or design has serious flaws:








...and I'm done. How's your list coming along?

Re:Well of course

[realityimpaired]

Considering that you can get a laptop with a quad core i7 in it for under $2000 CAD, a year ago (when I bought mine), I would not be surprised to find a desktop in the 400 pound range that has an i7 in it. Since I'm not shopping for it at the moment, I haven't looked at current pricing.

Re:Well of course

[roachdabug]

From what I've heard, being a "premium" Apple engineer is not so fun... You hear a lot of things like, "The outer metal band HAS to be the antenna, I don't care what the problem is, just make it work!"

Re:Well of course

[Culture20]

I like Dell because their support actually listens to me. "the cooling fan died" is met with a question of whether I need a technician or just the part. When I call Apple and tell them that an iMac overheats to the point of locking up, they call me a liar and hang up "if it doesn't turn off, its not overheating" Oh, really, then why is it locked up and so hot?

Re:Well of course

[petermgreen]

Note: since the GP quoted in pounds i'm using UK prices from both dell and apple.

A £999 inc VAT and shipping (closest price in this list to £1000) macbook pro comes with a 13 inch screen and a 2.3GHz dual-core Intel Core i5. Unfortunately the model number wikipedia lists for the CPU doesn't seem to match up with anything on intels website but assuming the turbo is similar to the models that straddle it it would have a max turbo with all cores active arround 2.8 GHz. If you want a 15 inch machine with a quad core (there is no option for a 15 inch with a dual core or a 13 inch with a quad core that will set you back £1,549.00 inc VAT and shipping)

Comparing to dell it depends what you compare with. If you compare to the 13 inch vostro 3300 with an i5-480M then a machine with similar specs (older processor family but higher clockspeed so probablly overall similar) is £559.00 plus VAT and shipping which will put the total arround £700. OTOH if you compare to the 15 inch vostro line (in PC laptops 15 inch models tend to be cheaper than equivilent 13 inch models) then things get cheaper still.

So the GP was exaggerating a bit but still there is a fairly steep premium for apple hardware and this is compounded by apple's very limited selection which means you often end up buying far more than you actually require.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like how Ferrari's are prone to electrical problems, or how Lamborghini has recalled models due to a fuel pump problem ? Every company has problems sometimes, get over it.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but Dell makes lots of models. Apple tends to focus on a few flagship products, so their inability to get them right is a lot more worrying, as an indicator of internal quality controls. Hence, geek interest in the failure. Of COURSE we're familiar with the idea that products sometimes have issues. That's not the point.

Re:Well of course

[paiute]

From what I've heard, being a "premium" Apple engineer is not so fun... You hear a lot of things like, "The outer metal band HAS to be the antenna, I don't care what the problem is, just make it work!"

Yes, because I always tell my CEO how our products are going to look and work.

Re:Well of course

[Patch86]

Super-cars are different. They earn their stripes by being stupidly high-performance, but suffer because they push the technological boundaries.

To bring Ferraris into our analogy- they'd be like paying 10 times the cost of a Dell Inspiron, but getting a machine with 10 times the high-performance hardware. Which is not how it works with Apple- there you get the same hardware, but allegedly superior build quality and user experience.

Re:Well of course

[snkiz]

Where have I heard that before?? Oh ya "it only drops calls if you hold it wrong..."

Re:Well of course

[mother_reincarnated]

Nobody buys a Ferrari or Lambo to get an ultra reliable sports car. Nor do they buy them to get an easy/comfortable to drive car.

Maybe a more apt comparison would be an Acura to a Chevy.

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

1. The CPU you chose is significantly slower than the sandy bridge i5 in the MacBook – they may have the same name (in that they're both i5s), but they're completely different archituctures – what you're doing is like comparing a CoreDuo to a Core2Duo. Anyway, with that in mind, lets use the highest end CPU the vostro can have –the i5 560m, which is still slower than the MacBook Pro's
2. The graphics card is massively slower – this is one area where sandy bridge made an enormous improvement. You can equip the vostro with a GT310m, which is still slower than the HD 3000 in the MacBook Pro (it's roughly as fast as a GT320m).
3. The battery life on the vostro is about 3 hours -litterally half that of the MacBook Pro

With that in mind, and the fact that the dell now costs £999 and is still slower, and still has less battery, no, you've not come close.

Re:Well of course

[Antisyzygy]

My HP laptop hasn't crashed once, and I have done scientific computations in Matlab on it that take up about 80 percent of the RAM and both processor cores at 100 percent.

Re:Well of course

[Antisyzygy]

Pirate the same software for a new PC and if you are caught say that since you own the original license and its not installed on a Mac you are legal?

Re:Well of course

[Antisyzygy]

Wrong. Other manufacturers fix the problems before they become problems or communicate with the people that it is a problem and fix it after, even if that means recalls or refurbishment. Apple has such a huge ego they think that you are one of their little peons and you should be grateful to even own one of their products.

Re:Well of course

[Nocuous]

Whoosh!

Re:Well of course

[snkiz]

blow me

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

While there are sometimes design flaws in individual computers that cause some crashes, the dirty little secret is that the cpus/chipsets often cause crashes. There is really no reason or time for the manufacturers to do a thorough job debugging their chips. So long as the hardware crashes don't occur that often, the average person will not be able to separate them from the windows crashes and Microsoft takes the blame for all of them.

So if you need a computer that doesn't crash often, you can't purchase anything based on a pc architecture. And since their switch to Intel, that includes Apple.

The real secret to high reliability is to have multiple cheap machines so that the odds of them crashing all at once are pretty slim.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because I always tell my CEO how our products are going to look and work.

Actually, at every successful company I have ever worked at, this IS how things go. A successful CEO does not dictate things that are outside their expertise.

Re:Well of course

[socsoc]

If you've ever used an Inspiron and a Mac, you'd know that the hardware itself is much better on the Apple product, in addition to build quality.

Re:Well of course

[517714]

It's not really a problem or Apple would have deleted the thread from their forum. Is that a defense of Apple?

The correct statement, BTW is, "You get what you pay for, ... or less."

Re:Well of course

[danbuter]

I wasn't the original AC in this post. And why is having a high UID bad? I just never bothered to sign up until recently. Or is it a matter of your epeen is bigger than mine?

Re:Well of course

[Stumbles]

I don't see how you could be modded insightful because your not. Insightful would mean you see that Apple products are perceived as high quality. Which you quickly shuffle them off to the same lower level of quality as Dell. For Apple at one time in their past that might be true. Since they switched to "commodity hardware" their quality is not in that same category. In fact it seems since that switch they now have the same quality issues as Dell and everyone else. Your "insight-fulness" is also blinded by the high dollar cost of their products versus the "cheap stuff", ie Dell and others. A $2000 product should not have such a common and mundane problem as overheating when the Apple-ologist's insist it is well worth the cash layout.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI drivers are craptastic, the X11 ones worst of all. Even their Windows drivers reliably crap out with some apps in particular situations.

Only product in recent memory where I look forward to driver updates hoping for a crapload of bugfixes (in vain) before they end of support it. Particularly bad in my case as it's a notebook -> only expensive replacements also likely needing a custom heatsink.

Re:Well of course

[pandrijeczko]

SSH? You mean a fanboi stooping so low as to resort to the dirty, filthy command line?

Wonders never cease...

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

I'm waiting for someone to figure out what the real problem is before I pass judgment. It might be a design problem for Apple or it may have nothing to do with Apple. There's a list of serious of problems that have plagued PC makers for the last several years. The nVidia chip problem: Apple replaced boards even if out of warranty. I think Dell and other manufacturters had to do the same. The exploding battery problem: There was some serious ragging on Apple until practically all laptop manufacturers started to recall their batteries because the problem originated with their common supplier: Sony Battery. Just last month, PC makers might have to delay some product launches because of problems with Intel Sandy Bridge chipsets.

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

Wrong. Other manufacturers fix the problems before they become problems or communicate with the people that it is a problem and fix it after, even if that means recalls or refurbishment. Apple has such a huge ego they think that you are one of their little peons and you should be grateful to even own one of their products.

Really? You mean how Sony somewhat shifted the blame of their exploding batteries onto Dell saying that it was somehow Dell's designs that exacerbated the problem. Dell and Apple recalled the batteries before Sony did. In the end, Sony had to recall batteries from many different laptop manufacturers.

Re:Well of course

[Nocuous]

I don't provide sexual favors to the mentally retarded.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Toshiba laptops are notorious for having problems like this. Every single one I've used has throttled, rebooted or shut down outright due to poor thermal design. I've also seen the problem in some HP laptops, but to a much lesser extent.

I have never had a heat problem with Dell or Acer laptops unless they were neglected and allowed to build up tons of dust over a long period of time.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and an unsuccessful hardware design is often the product of an engineer with no user input as to usability.

Re:Well of course

[Hognoxious]

Since when has insisting on a fundamentally broken antenna design been a usability issue?

Re:Well of course

[Auroch]

I wasn't the original AC in this post. And why is having a high UID bad? I just never bothered to sign up until recently. Or is it a matter of your epeen is bigger than mine?

Without a big epeen, how will I know how relevant your posts really are?

Re:Well of course

[Hognoxious]

They used to just work. Now they only just work.

Re:Well of course

[mikael_j]

for us trolls uids are very useful.

• uid below 100 000 - Jaded veteran, no luls from trolling
• uid between 100 000 and 800 000 - probably trollable
• uid between 800 000 and 1 800 000 - trollable
• uid above 1 800 000 - most likely a fellow troll

Re:Well of course

[erroneus]

Actually, I would like to see this list.

And I agree, every company has issues with their machines. Dell and Apple are not manufacturers -- they are designers who send their stuff out to be manufactured by pretty much the same companies in the same plants.

So when Apple people say "they aren't expensive, they are better" this reminder need to come up until they finally understand there is essentially no difference in quality because they all come from the same manufacturers. The only difference will be in the design which doesn't seem to affect the reliability as much as the manufacturing.

Still, I am primarily a Dell customer and I would like to see the list. (I am a customer and a fan, but I am not blinded by my fanboyism)

Re:Well of course

[davester666]

Well, if you work at Dell, you probably don't want to get in the CEO's face about it, but it doesn't seem to of any interest to him how Dell's products appear or how ergonomic they are.

Re:Well of course

[Americano]

the price of failure is higher for Apple because they have not diversified as much as Dell.

So if Apple adopted Dell's "run it up the flagpole, and see who salutes" hardware strategy, they'd have Dell's vast profit and valuation?

Wow. I'm sure they'll get right on destroying their business and profit margins in a rush to the bottom, now that you've suggested it.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

MacBook Pro 17-inch
Intel "Sandy Bridge" Core i7 2.2GHz
4GB DDR3 SDRAM
AMD Radeon HD 6750M 1 GB GDDR5
17" 1920x1200 16:10 aspect LED backlit display
750GB SATA hard drive @ 5400 RPM
DVD burner
Illuminated keyboard
----
$2500

vs

ASUS G Series G73SW
Intel "Sandy Bridge" Core i7 2.0GHz
8GB DDR3 SDRAM
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460M 1.5GB GDDR5
17.3" 1920x1080 16:9 aspect LED backlit, 120Hz 3D display w/3D glasses
1TB (500GB SATA hard drive with Hybrid SSD x2) @ 7200 RPM
Blu-Ray burner
Illuminated keyboard
----
$2000


Superior hardware in bold.

Re:Well of course

[Americano]

450 posts, many of them responses, or follow-on posts from users who already posted of their problems, and we conclude that this is a "very widespread issue" affecting each of the millions of units shipped each quarter, rather than the more reasonable conclusion, that some people are bound to get faulty hardware when you ship a couple million units in a quarter? Defend that, statistics fans.

And here's the thing: if your system is borked, they will repair it. The repair service is quite good, and if you're still under warranty (and you are, if you have a "2011 Macbook"), then they will repair it.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why the hell do you masturbate so damn much boy! Your momma is worried about you!

Re:Well of course

[revscat]

I am not jaded, you worthless peon. I've just seen it all before and it makes me completely SICK.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Winner! That didnt take long. I was waiting for a post like this. Its always someone else's fault, never Apple's.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

2+2=5

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

Yep, the 17" MacBook Pro is very poorly priced, and I wouldn't try to argue that it was well priced. That doesn't mean that the 13" and 15" aren't reasonably priced though. This discussion though was over whether you could get a £400 dell that matched a £1000 MacBook Pro. At the moment, it seems you can't even get a £1000 dell that matches the £1000 MacBook Pro.

So basically – your comment is entirely off the topic of the thread.

An aside – I'd most definitely hand the MacBook Pro the win on the screen there. You've basically given the asus the win because of a gimmick, the MacBook Pro meanwhile has a higher res screen that doesn't have it's quality crippled by having to do 3D too. The G73SW is also twice as thick as the MacBook Pro, twice as heavy, and has a battery that lasts half the time, so it's not a one way street. Personally, I wouldn't even put the two machines in the same category... One is a glorified desktop with a screen attached, the other is a real laptop.

Re:Well of course

[SuperTechnoNerd]

I have always considered Apple Computers nice looking pieces of furniture.
After all, function follows form.. Right?

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

Apparently you can't read:

I'm waiting for someone to figure out what the real problem is before I pass judgment. It might be a design problem for Apple or it may have nothing to do with Apple. There's a list of serious of problems that have plagued PC makers for the last several years.

Re:Well of course

[willy_me]

The thing about computers is that when you pay for the newest, highest performing technologies you open yourself up to getting burned. Sometimes it takes time to spot all the problems and release a perfect product. This applies to all manufacturers. There is a reason why some people always wait for v2.0.

It's funny that some of those cheap laptops are so reliable. The hardware has gone through extensive testing because it has been on the market for the past year. Performance typically sucks, as does the build quality - but they run surprisingly well. Manufacturers charge more for performance and build quality. And on all their products, regardless of the targeted market segment, they attempt to maximize* reliability. It's just harder to do this with newer technologies.

*sometimes the cheapest computers will have to compromise reliability for price but most brand name computers will try to avoid doing so because it tarnishes their brand.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

The ASUS display is larger, true HD widescreen aspect and 120Hz. That's why it's better. I'm not sure why you think having a higher refresh rate "cripples" it. Also, for a gimmick 3D sure has taken off in a huge way.

The 17" Macbook is 15.47"×10.51"×0.98", the ASUS is 16.60"x12.80"x0.80". How is that "twice" as thick?
The 17" Macbook Pro weighs 6lbs, the ASUS 8lbs. How is that "twice" as heavy?

How are you measuring battery life? Sitting idle or running full tilt?

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, Precisions are hardly the cheap Dells.

Re:Well of course

[Khyber]

"Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple"

I used to work as an Apple repair tech, at Flextronics.

I don't know how it is now, but not even 6 years ago 2/3 of the machines off the line were failures and needed refurbishing.

Apple managed to keep it quiet with a ton of bullshit.

I'm not aware of ANY manufacturer besides Apple with that shitty of a manufacturing record.

But that's what happens when you had your stuff manufactured in Guadalajara, Mexico.

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

The ASUS display is larger

You mean, the ASUS display has larger pixels making it look more blocky. I'll take a smaller display of the same resolution *any* day.

true HD widescreen aspect

Aka, lacking 120 vertical pixels that the MacBook Pro has.

120Hz

Only when running in 3D gimmick mode.

ASUS is 16.60"x12.80"x0.80"

1.8"

The 17" Macbook Pro weighs 6lbs

5lbs.

How are you measuring battery life? Sitting idle or running full tilt?

Reviews show that mostly idle the MBP lasts 7.5 hours, the ASUS lasts 3.5 hours. Under heavy load, the ASUS lasts 1.5 hours, the MBP 4 hours.

Re:Well of course

[Kryptonian Jor-El]

You can't explain that to these people

Re:Well of course

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

SSH? You mean a fanboi stooping so low as to resort to the dirty, filthy command line?

Wonders never cease...

A stupid comeback about "fanbois" using a CLI in reply to factual evidence that the whole story is just plain wrong?

Nope, absolutely no surprise here. Exactly what was expected.

Re:Well of course

[MagusSlurpy]

Also, for a gimmick 3D sure has taken off in a huge way.

There's a difference between "taking off in a huge way" and "being forced to buy a 3D screen because it's the only 1080p upgrade available." That's like saying OBD-II was responsible for all the cars sold after 1996. Hell, every car had it! That shit was awesome, brah!

Re:Well of course

[slimjim8094]

Hilarious. You know, because OSX shits all over the command line, unlike Windows.

Oh wait, never mind. Damn near all of the OS is configurable from it. And it's a real shell (bash) and utilities, not cmd.exe. Hell, they even have an X11 server on the install disk.

Call me a fanboi if you'd like, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a powerful Unix machine that most of my favorite Linux software runs without modification on - and then not have to fuck with it to keep it working.

Re:Well of course

[realityimpaired]

If I'm spending $250,000 on a car, I'm going to be pretty pissed if it stalls the first time I try to open up the throttle.

And there are supercars that are *very* reliable, and even some that're designed to be useable in your daily life. Ever drive a 911 GT or Carrerra before? On a par with a top end Lambo or Ferrari, but also designed to be used in your daily life. There's several other supercars out there that're designed to actually be used by normal people, and that's not even touching on to the race-bred cars from companies like Subaru, Mitsubishi, Acura, Fiat, Saab, etc... My 2011 Subaru Impreza was actually *cheaper* than a similarly equipped Ford (and I couldn't get a similarly equipped Chevy), and it'll still do 0-100km/h in a hair under 5s, and while it's electronically limited to 185km/h, it'll actually go almost 300km/h if you disable the limiter.

Similarly with computers... there's significantly better equipped performance options than anything Apple has, and a lot of them are cheaper. In a laptop, the margin narrows significantly, but in a desktop formfactor, it's astonishing how much Apple are willing to charge for something you can get significantly cheaper elsewhere. And you don't even have to build your own for that.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Under heavy load ... the MBP [lasts] 4 hours.

Unless it crashes.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, the ASUS display has larger pixels making it look more blocky. I'll take a smaller display of the same resolution *any* day.

Blocky? Seriously? Even on my 18.4" laptop 1920x1080 looks razor sharp. In fact, the pixels are sometimes too small when working on images. On my 42" HDTV 1920x1080 still looks great.

Aka, lacking 120 vertical pixels that the MacBook Pro has.

AKA no black bars in films and a significantly higher FOV in games without vertical image stretching. I'll take a real widescreen aspect over a sort-of widescreen.

Only when running in 3D gimmick mode.

There is no such thing as "3D mode". The 3D effect works by rapidly alternating frames in sync with the glasses. The refresh rate can be set to anything the display supports at any time. This means a maximum 60fps for 3D films or games and 120fps maximum for 2D films or games.

1.8"

I was wrong about the dimensions. They're actually smaller than I thought at 16.3"x12.6"x0.74".

5lbs

6.6lbs

Reviews show that mostly idle the MBP lasts 7.5 hours, the ASUS lasts 3.5 hours. Under heavy load, the ASUS lasts 1.5 hours, the MBP 4 hours.

The 17" Macbook Pro has a 95whrs battery and the ASUS has a 74whrs battery. That is significant, but it's certainly not going to last anywhere near twice as long with both machines running under the same load.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... if it's not related to smcfancontrol as someone said but load-related, I think ifixit.com said something about heat sink paste being spread unevenly, too much or something and bad QA and they were wondering if any negative effects would show up somewhen... whatever.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a machine that plays Crysis on full graphics

Liar.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

The nVidia chip problem: Apple replaced boards even if out of warranty.

This is a damn lie. When my mothers Macbook pro that was known to have this issue died, and was proven to be this issue, Apple wanted to charge me more than the cost of a new macbook pro to fix it. Ebay board to the rescue.

Re:Well of course

[russotto]

Macbook Pro 17": 6.6 pounds ASUS G Series G73SW: 8.48 pounds.

Re:Well of course

[flappinbooger]

Do you want a list of Dell models that my employer has concluded have design flaws or do you just want to fling mud at Apple? (here's a hint: Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple).

Hold on now, that's not the same thing. No other manufacturer of consumer electronics has such furiously loyal customers and touts such a flawless and refined user experience.

Couple that with the recent flaws with the iPhone4 and this is becoming silly.

Any cellular phone -> 1 purpose, make a phone call. Tell me how any company can release a phone that is so defective that massive amounts of people won't be able to do that one thing.

What do many MBP customers do? Video and graphics. What's the one thing a MBP or any computer do? COMPUTE! Hard! 100% load for days on end if required. The iPhone 4 was a black eye to Apple. This is a slug to the other one. They are very publicly losing rep, and if Teh Steve ascends into the clouds, I have concerns Apple will only be a withering peel of what it once was.

Disclaimer -> I think the Al unibody MBP's are no doubt one of the sharpest and nicest looking laptops ever, with stunning screens.

Re:Well of course

[SCPRedMage]

Only for very large values of 2.

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

Blocky? Seriously? Even on my 18.4" laptop 1920x1080 looks razor sharp. In fact, the pixels are sometimes too small when working on images. On my 42" HDTV 1920x1080 still looks great.

But you don't sit 2 feet away from your TV ;).

I was wrong about the dimensions. They're actually smaller than I thought at 16.3"x12.6"x0.74" [asus.com].

odd... this says 1.8", so does this, so does every single page on google in fact other than Asus's site, and this along with every other picture of the machine shows it being about 5 times thicker than a VGA port – i.e. 1.8". My guess is that Asus accidentally listed cm when they meant inches (they list 1.8cm). You also underestimated the Asus's weight btw – it's 8.5lb.

The 17" Macbook Pro has a 95whrs battery and the ASUS has a 74whrs battery. That is significant, but it's certainly not going to last anywhere near twice as long with both machines running under the same load.

Assuming that the machine's power management firmware is equal, and the efficiency of the components used is equal. Judging by the reviews which all get very similar results, I'd say these assumptions are false ;).

Re:Well of course

[Tumbleweed]

The cutoff for 'jaded veteran' is 100,000?! I'm not sure what that makes me, but I'm sure it isn't good...and I waited a long time before signing up for an account.

Re:Well of course

[future assassin]

But what Mac Joe user will know what SSH is?

Re:Well of course

[thetoadwarrior]

When gaming yeah it whirs away away and gets quite hot near the top half of it but it never crashed and the fan doesn't spin constantly. It'll spin up for a couple minutes and the go off again. I don't have any useful amount of experience on older models but the 2009 model takes a beating quietly. Part of the silence is the fact I have an SSD so the only think that can make any noise is the fan.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

But after a while the SSH session locks up and even TOP dies.

Re:Well of course

[jo_ham]

So those posts in the linked thread of the "widespread" (about 400-500 cases) problem posting that Apple have said "send it in and we'll refund or replace it" are what then? Aberration?

Clearly this is some thermal problem with the CPU halting to protect itself, which crashes the machine.

Hopefully they'll be able to fix it, or determine why these machines are the ones failing - which could be why they want them back.

In my experience with Apple tech support, including time at a former job, they were always very good. They even shipped me a free GigE card for a PowerMac G5 when the on board port was refusing to play dice with the switch we had while they had a new machine put together, just so we wouldn;t have to take the current one we had "off air" and lose productivity. I thought that was a nice gesture. (They of course, replaced the logic board in the PM G5 under Apple Care too).

That's not my only experience with them, but one of the ones that stands out beyond the much ore normal "send it n, we'll repair it for free - if it still doesn't work we'll replace it" exchanges.

Re:Well of course

[jo_ham]

You'd be surprised. The Terminal is one of the most useful apps on my Dock. You soon get introduced to the potential power of bash if you read OSXHints.

The bigger problem would be that while I know that I could SSH in, I'd have to enable it, since SSH is off by default. Something to do with "security" or somesuch thing. But I wouldn't know about that, would I?

Re:Well of course

[R3d M3rcury]

and then not have to fuck with it to keep it working.

Unless you decide to deal with video. Then you have to find another computer that you can use to ssh into your Mac and either do a clean shutdown or figure out what's causing the problem. But, hey, that's not "fucking with it."

Re:Well of course

[pablo_max]

When you need to keep rebooting on the mac, how is the dell slower? I guess a 486 would be faster in that case ;)

Re:Well of course

[LurkerXXX]

I have to disagree with you on the screen.

I'll take a 1920x1200 17" screen over a1920x1080 17.3 any day of the week. That 10+% extra height comes in handy for a lot of the stuff I do. 3D is a fad as far as I'm concerned, so no bonus points for me. All just IMO. People's preferences are going to vary. Just saying the screen thing isn't something that everyone is going to agree is superior.

(Note: Not a fanboy. I haven't bought an apple product since the apple II e)

Re:Well of course

[pablo_max]

I am sure that 3D will no longer be a gimmick when Apple releases a 3D notebook.
Apple fanboys are amazing.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

*shrugs* I guess we could sit here all day nitpicking. In my original post my only intention was to put forth a list of specs, not really to say which computer was better for everybody.

I'll just say that, personally, I find the ASUS to be the better value with features that I am more likely to put to good use.

Re:Well of course

[beelsebob]

*shrugs* I guess we could sit here all day nitpicking. In my original post my only intention was to put forth a list of specs, not really to say which computer was better for everybody.

Right – the point is that thickness, weight, battery life are all equally valid specs. Ultimately, they're so divergent that it puts the two machines in entirely different categories (desktop replacement, or laptop). It's totally fair enough that the Asus is the machine for you, but to suggest that because it would suit you better that a machine in a totally different category is over priced is an invalid argument.

It would be like me saying "I find the MacMini a much better machine for my needs, and it's only £600, therefore a £1200 gamer rig with 3 graphics cards is overpriced."

Re:Well of course

[IsThisNickTaken]

I see what you are saying. At the same time, the company that takes the money from the customer is responsible for delivering a quality product. If Apple has a quality problem that has a root cause of a problem with one of their suppliers (Nvidia, Intel, Sony, etc.), Apple still has a quality problem. It is their job to qualify their suppliers and the components they supply. I have a 2006 Macbook Pro with an ATI Radeon X1600 card that overheats that Apple has not addresses adequately in my opinion. I can use it if I crank up the fans to 6000 RPM and don't do anything GPU intensive.

Re:Well of course

[DurendalMac]

It may not even be the ATI driver specifically, but the Intel/ATI video card switching. I've seen a lot of reports of WoW crashing on the new MBPs, and turning off auto-switching seems to greatly alleviate the problem. Hopefully it's something that a firmware/software update will fix shortly.

Although how they don't manage to catch this crap in testing is beyond me.

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

According to this article from Apple themselves, Apple will replace your MacBook Pro board even today. The specific issue is with the nVidia 8600M GT. If you had another nVidia chipset, it didn't not fall under this recall. If you sold your MacBook Pro and it had this problem, then someone else got the benefit of this recall.

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

Apple has the responsibility to test their suppliers products but are you holding Apple or any manufacturer responsible for things that they could not have tested nor foreseen? For example, it was my understanding that over time, the Sony batteries would fail in a certain way which led to the fires. However it would take years before the conditions were right. While Apple and Dell probably tested their batteries, they didn't design a multi-year test. Apple at this point should address the problem quickly. If it's hardware, offer quick repair or replacement. If it's software, let consumers know how soon they can expect a patch.

Re:Well of course

[Zlotnick]

Natalie Portman + hot grits will come back in style eventually. Imagine a beowolf cluster of Natalie Grits.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheap Dell's what are a roll of the dice? Oh, oh you meant "Dells".

Re:Well of course

[paiute]

Yes, because I always tell my CEO how our products are going to look and work.

Actually, at every successful company I have ever worked at, this IS how things go. A successful CEO does not dictate things that are outside their expertise.

So at every company you have ever worked at, you personally told the CEO how things were going to be?

Re:Well of course

[Draek]

Call me a fanboi if you'd like, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a powerful Unix machine that most of my favorite Linux software runs without modification on - and then not have to fuck with it to keep it working.

Really? the whole "not [having] to fuck with it to keep it working" thing doesn't seem to have worked so well for the submitter.

Re:Well of course

[Kyusaku Natsume]

Aside the first batch of CRT iMac I don't remember seeing another piece of Apple's hardware manufactured in Mexico. What I remember is that a friend that also worked in Flextronics told us that Apple sent there all the equipment that they were refurbishing. I will not defend the shitty pay or workplace conditions of electronics factories here in Guadalajara, but I doubt that manufacturing quality were that bad considering that Flex has many more customers beside Apple.

Re:Well of course

[Billly Gates]

Hopefully then a quick driver update will fix the issue.

Re:Well of course

[Falconhell]

I am just as happy with the build quality of the Dlel Latitude E6400 I am posting on as any mac I have used.

As a 30 yo hardware veteran I know what to look for. Aplles superiority is purely cosmetic, all othe rclaims are just dreamin.

Re:Well of course

[Khyber]

We got boxes of logic boards for the G3 iBooks with sand in them. About 40% of those boards were bad.

Open up most any 72-74 series iBook and look at the bottom right of the top of the logic board. Manufactured in Guadalajara, Mexico is stamped on pretty much every one I've ever replaced.

Oh, and let's not get into the issue of system images for each individual piece of hardware. If a set of 72-series iBooks came from one school, it had 10.2.7 on it. If the EXACT SAME MODEL of iBook came from another school system, it got 10.2.8.

Compatibility problems to ZERO END.

Won't ever touch an Apple product after that ever again, not unless Jobs himself personally pays for me to visit their manufacturing facilities and can assure me that I won't be getting a piece of garbage.

Even then, I'm only going to pay HALF of what they're asking, because I know it's not worth what they're charging in the first place.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple managed to keep it quiet with a ton of bullshit.

Business as usual for Apple, just the good ol' Reality Distortion Field.

Re:Well of course

[Cederic]

Aka, lacking 120 vertical pixels that the MacBook Pro has.

AKA no black bars in films and a significantly higher FOV in games without vertical image stretching. I'll take a real widescreen aspect over a sort-of widescreen.

Wtf? You're seriously trying to argue that losing 10% of your screen real-estate is a good thing?

Shit, even if (and it's a pretty big if) the FOV is better for FPS games, it sucks donkeys for RTS games, it's crap for normal PC use, it makes it harder to read documents and.. well, I'd take 1920x1200 over 1920x1080 every single time.

A tv I never plan to use as a computer display, sure, 16:9 makes sense. Any computer output, 16:10 is better.

Re:Well of course

[GigaplexNZ]

You don't have to own a Macbook to legitimately claim that Apple aren't alone with hardware issues.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

So everyone is buying Apple products now because Apple makes lots of profit? That's a good excuse.. Sure, my new MacBook Pro doesn't work right, but its ok because Apple is making tons of money off it!

Re:Well of course

[tivoKlr]

You can't explain that to these people

This is NOT offtopic. My post may be redundant but some mod needs to fix this.

Re:Well of course

[Wild_dog!]

AC jumps the gun again...hhahahahahahaha.
I wish I could mod you up more than 5.

Re:Well of course

[mjwx]

So if Apple adopted Dell's "run it up the flagpole, and see who salutes" hardware strategy, they'd have Dell's vast profit and valuation?

But they are already doing that, without passing on the savings to their customers.

A few days of load testing would have confirmed this issue before the consumer had even known the product existed.

You see, this isn't the first time Apple has had a serious issue. Macbooks have a history of overheating.

Wow. I'm sure they'll get right on destroying their business and profit margins in a rush to the bottom, now that you've suggested it.

Why would they when hopeless fanboys such as yourself would keep buying no matter what was wrong with the product.

Re:Well of course

[Wild_dog!]

A friend was just telling me today about his 1999 ibook that is still working just fine. And I have several working machines from the 90's and beyond which have had zero problems. In fact, I have never had to send one in for repairs and neither have any of my friends or relatives. Apparently we are just the lucky few. I just retire them after they become too outdated. Still fun to play around with though.

Re:Well of course

[ckaminski]

I remember a batch of 50 Latitudes where I had to replace every keyboard and every motherboard before their 3year warranty expired. Every single one of 'em.

I also had about 40 GX desktops built on 9/11 all blow their power-supplies.

Re:Well of course

[Wild_dog!]

Yeah for rationality in the discussion. I wonder if the folks who write unkind things might take it back if the issue is really not apple specific. Seems like this has all happened before with a battery issue which turned out to be not apple specific either. People sure like to pile on.

It could be an apple problem or maybe not. I just think it is funny how the apple haters come out of the woodwork with bad tidings.

How many of those who despise apple have ever owned an apple machine?

I have owned many different systems since my first Atari 800 and most have been great (IBM, Amiga, many self built machines and a slew of mac products as well). There have been a few machines with some glitches (my shuttle box for example) like this and most of the time there is a work around to fix the problem once it is identified.

Re:Well of course

[ShadowFoxx]

Agreed. Readinig about the error however I'm hoping it's not a heating issue reguarding chassis enginering. With the added speed and power of new model under the same chasis design... even the old one ran hot pushing the bubble without having major issues. If it's something that can be fixed with firmware or operating system update that would be great. I really want to buy one of these but I'm not going to until this issue gets resoleved. I might have to settle for one of the new sandy bridge HP's or an m17x which are less portible.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't provide sexual favors to the mentally retarded.

No, but your Mom did and now the rest of us have to put up with you.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo, dawg, your command of written English is truly poor.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes there will be a bunch of ragging and you know what it may not be apples fault at all. But I have to ask would the non technical people who run over to apple who flaunt how much better their mac is and how it never crashes compared to their windows machine ever take the time to consider that it might have been a 3rd party application or unstandarized hardware and so on. You spend 2000 on a laptop from apple and you think you're ammune those types of comments and you get this smug glow you. So users of other computers(I refuse to call them PC users because the MAC is just as much of a PC as a Dell these's days besides the bios) are sitting their being insulted by MAC users because they bought a 400 dollar dell laptop and they now have a 2000 dollar laptop that suprise runs better than the 400 dollar special at the corner store.

So yeah when something like this happens it's not so much that most of the people around here think it's apples fault and jump on that bandwagon(there are some but they are silly) it's the people who want to point out "hey that computer is just a computer and not fairy magic".

Apple isn't magic they are just as likely to have problems as any other PC and that's what people want to say.

Re:Well of course

[.tekrox]

My world of mud for mod points!

Re:Well of course

[Americano]

A few days of load testing would have confirmed this issue before the consumer had even known the product existed.

Provided it's an issue with the design, and not simply a bad batch of thermal paste, logic boards, or some other component. Again: 450 posts (many of them are follow-ups from users who already posted, so that doesn't even necessarily mean 450 *units*) in one apple discussion thread, out of several million units shipped does not suggest a "widespread issue" - there is, as yet, little-to-no evidence to support the assertion that this is a "very widespread" design issue.

But you knew all that already. Really, it's just fun to get your hate on, isn't it?

For a bunch of 'scientific' people who like to poke fun at anybody who questions evolution or espouses intelligent design or creationism, I'm constantly amazed at how easily flamebait articles and titles such as this manage to get taken with a shred of seriousness here. Of course, "A small number of 2011 MacBook Pros have been found to be defective" doesn't generate the ad impressions that a good piece of flamebait does.

Re:Well of course

[Jon Abbott]

I'm guessing it makes us extremely jaded. Considering many of my posts these days contain the phrase "get off my lawn", I can't blame the parent poster. ;^)

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

"Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4"

This makes no sense. You misunderstand some (or all) of the concepts here.

Re:Well of course

[xrobertcmx]

Ahhh, HP, now there is a company that has made me some serious support money. From 04 to 07 I think every HP laptop must have died. Now the Dell Precision workstations I've encountered from '06 have held up far better than I would have ever believed. Personally my late 2009 MacBook Pro 13.3 has encoded several dozen movies at 100% CPU load for about 40 min each and not crashed once.

Re:Well of course

[xrobertcmx]

You are, just about every Apple laptop I've owned has gone in once. After that 0 issues.

Re:Well of course

[xrobertcmx]

Dell, the people who almost weekly ask me about the DVD tray when I tell them the video is bad? Apple on the other hand has repaired everything I have sent them, and replaced my battery out of warranty. After a serially unpleasant email about an issue I had last year, the guy on the phone made my appointment at the store and followed up twice. I am not buying another one because of the whole app store nonsense, and to be honest KDE on whatever distro I'm using today gives me the user experience I want, but I can't fault there support. That and the graphics on the 13.3 are a worse joke than the last go round.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Larger FOV is better for all game types because it allows you to see more area. With 16:10 aspect, it's like having a perpetual zoom right in the centre of the screen.

For films, well, I hope you enjoy black bars that take up that precious 120 pixels. You may as well argue that 4:3 aspect is better because you can get more vertical resolution out of it.

There is a very good reason that multi-display setups are almost always oriented horizontally. That same reason is what makes 16:9 better than 16:10.

Re:Well of course

[Kwiik]

I'm pretty sure that's why mikael_j avoided actually making the list

Re:Well of course

[the_B0fh]

one of these days I must go look up my 2000+ ID. And like you, I waited a long time before signing up.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, twice! C'mon, snkiz, give him another opening. I love this.

Re:Well of course

[cthulhu11]

Sure, you just have to go back in time to before the crash and turn on sshd.

Re:Well of course

[spindizzy]

In my extremely jaded way I'll point out that you left out the crucial element; your Natalie Portman must be petrified. Even nostalgia trolls aint what they used to be. I still think this new-fangled accounts on /. is a passing fad...

Re:Well of course

[Wild_dog!]

Bummer. Good to hear about zero issues afterword. Have you had to just return one outright, are the machines replacements, or just your original machines refurbished?

Re:Well of course

[Wild_dog!]

2/3 of the machines? Really?
Sounds like the plant should have been shut down and the manager fired if that was the case.
How many millions would have been thrown away if 2/3 of the machines coming off the line were non-functional?
Are you certain of your numbers?

Re:Well of course

[DurendalMac]

In all likelihood, it is an Apple problem, probably drivers or firmware. Regardless, it'll probably be fixed within a few weeks.

This (and price, of course) is why I wait to buy refurbs from the online Apple Store if I'm eyeballing a specific model. Just like new, same warranty as new, but a good deal cheaper, and by the time refurbs show up, the kinks like this are probably worked out.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want a list of Dell models that my employer has concluded have design flaws or do you just want to fling mud at Apple? (here's a hint: Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple).

1. Nobody cares what your boss has decided to call a design flaw.
2. The quality of Dell's computers is irrelevant. But just for the record, we would like to see your list of Dell laptops which are marketed to the same audience and have a similar price point, and which have design flaws which cause them to simply stop working any time you try to use it to do more than play Solitaire.
3. If Steve Jobs shits all over your face, it's not OK even if Bill Gates pissed in your mouth.
4. To answer your question, yes he's here to fling mud at Apple. He made that clear. He asked you to defend them. We're still waiting.

Fucking fanboys. Steve doesn't love you, stop sucking his dick already.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

The GX280 is renowned around here for its ability to suddenly stop working due to PSU failure.

It seems at any given point in time Dell has at least one or two models in production that are extremely prone to failure of a specific component, it'd be hilarious if I wasn't working for a company that uses exclusively Dell machines and for some reason has managed to pick every year's "lemon"...

Re:Well of course

[qubezz]

How many people that have computer lockups on this relatively new Apple computer actually have the technical acumen to recognize and reproduce the symptom, recognize it as being a serious design flaw, and also find that particular thread on that particular forum on this particular Internet, register for the forum and post their experiences? I'm guessing the ratio is about 1:1000 or so...

If you want another idea of how Apple stonewalls and denys a manufacturing defect in a product line, have a look at this forum. 128 pages of posts about delaminating yellowing LCD screens on 27" and 21.5" iMacs. Apply similar logic: How many grandma computer owners actually recognize their computer screen isn't supposed to be tinged pink and yellow and would go to that particular internet forum and not just read but also register and post there?

Does it not strike you as disconcerting that the manufacturer of a product pushes a $349(!!) extended warranty for their own product before you get out the door of their company store either?

Re:Well of course

[Tumbleweed]

I'm guessing it makes us extremely jaded. Considering many of my posts these days contain the phrase "get off my lawn", I can't blame the parent poster. ;^)

I resemble that remark! I also find myself using, "And I would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those pesky meddling, kids!"

Re:Well of course

[teg]

Assuming that the machine's power management firmware is equal, and the efficiency of the components used is equal. Judging by the reviews which all get very similar results, I'd say these assumptions are false ;).

And for this purpose, also the OS. The Macbook Pros have a significantly better battery time running MacOS X than Windows.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure but only apple fans so fanatically claim their products are superior quality and worth the 3x or 2x money compared to others.

Re:Well of course

[pkphilip]

The Apple Macbook Pro 17 costs (USD 2578/- with anti-glare screen and display port adapter for VGA)

Here is a laptop which has similar or better specifications than a Apple Macbook and an excellent support service. You can checkout reviews of Powernotebooks for an idea about the quality of service they provide. NOTE: I am not associated with them in anyway. I have heard very good reports though.

Not a Dell, but better (for approximately USD 1749 or about than GBP 1077.50). Check this out:
http://www.powernotebooks.com/configure.php?special=924

If you configure it with the following specs it comes to about USD 1595/-. If you are too lazy to read the article, I have given the specs below:

17.3” Full HD 16:9 Wide screen (1920x1080) LED-Backlit Display with Super Clear Glare Type screen vs 17" 1920x1200 Anti-glare on the Macbook Pro 17
nVIDIA GeForce GTX 460M 192bit w/1.5GB GDDR5 vs Intel HD Graphics 3000 on the Macbook Pro 17
Intel® Core i7-2630QM (2.0~2.9GHz, 45W) w/6M L3 Cache - 4 Cores - 8 Threads,
8GB (2x4GB SODIMMS) DDR3/1333 vs 4GB on the Macbook Pro 17
750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM (16MB Cache Buffer) vs 750GB SATA 5400 RPM on Macbook Pro 17
Integrated 802.11 b/g/n wireless LAN + Bluetooth V3.0 + HS Combo Card
Windows 7 Premium (with CD)
3-Year Labor 1-Year Parts (Year 2 & 3 Labor by PNB)-Lifetime 24/7 DOMESTIC Toll Free Support. vs No apple care plan on Macbook Pro (you can purchase a 3 year Apple care plan for 349.. the advantage is that you get international support unlike in the case of Powernotebooks.com)

In case you missed it - there is domestic toll free support in the US for the lifetime of the product with Powernotebooks.

So all in all a wonderful deal if you are in the US. Again, I am not associated with this company in any way, shape or form. Just pointing out that there are far better deals than buying a Macbook Pro.

Re:Well of course

[pkphilip]

Noticed an error in my post - it should read:
If you configure it with the following specs it comes to about *USD 1749/-*. If you are too lazy to read the article, I have given the specs below:

Re:Well of course

[jedidiah]

I guess we all have varying standards for procrastination.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I never knew that Apples weren't mass produced.

Are they hand-build by teams of artisans working in the timeless Venetian computer-building tradition? Or could it be that they are also cheap mass-produced trash, but the expensive kind?

Re:Well of course

[jedidiah]

...yes. You could own a few Mac Minis instead. [snicker]

Re:Well of course

[Cronock]

From my personal experience, items received from flextronics have usually been in worse condition then when they left. We used to have our laptop tech tear down each one received and fix all the unattached cables, stripped/missing screws, and improperly seated cards. Yes, it was that bad. Apples DOA rate is not anywhere near what you are suggesting. Sure, issues come up from time to time but that happens with any manufacturer. Batteries, capacitors, multiple kinds of defective gpus: these are things Apple didn't cause but affected their products, and they've replaced under warranty or REP. Apple has had plenty of self-caused issues too, but you're way you of the water here.

Re:Well of course

[jedidiah]

Many of us have personal firsthand experience about these matters. Those that don't will rightfully point out the pricing disparities between Apple and the rest of the industry. The inevitable result of all of that is to once again deny personal firsthand experience and continue the self delusion that an nv320 in an Apple is somehow different than one in a Dell.

This situation once again demonstrates that there is nothing "magical" or "premium" or "luxury" about Apple gear. It's the same generic spare parts in a "trendier" case.

When you whine about "haters" you sound like someone from the Family Research Council.

Re:Well of course

[jedidiah]

> You can't explain that to these people ...because we're the ones that have actually used both Dell and Apple kit. YOU aren't.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

HP has their HP Pavilion dv7t Quad Edition Laptop on sale for $1249.99 - 30% off code NB739862 = $874.99 with free shipping.

Specs:

        * 2nd generation Intel Quad Core i7-2630QM 2.0GHz
        * 6GB DDR3
        * 750GB HDD
        * 17.3" 1600 x 900 diagonal HD+ HP BrightView LED Display
        * 1GB Radeon HD 6490M GDDR5 Graphics
                    o HDMI
                    o VGA
        * Blu-ray player & SuperMulti DVD burner
        * WiFi N
        * 6-Cell Lithium-Ion Battery
        * Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

Optional Upgrades:

        * 1GB Radeon HD 6770M GDDR5 Graphics, HDMI, VGA [+ $25.00]

Re:Well of course

[tiedemann]

My HP EliteBook hasn't crashed once either since I got it 7 months ago. I do some heavy stuff on it including gaming. It's more of a desktop replacement than laptop but still, "it just works".

Re:Well of course

[Wovel]

What pricing disparity? I am serious. Show me another similar spec, similar hardware, same weight and dimensions, for significantly less money..

People always make this lame argument, no one ever provides a link...

Apple does not control 95% of the over 1k laptop market because all the people who buy laptops in that range are morons..Quite th

Re:Well of course

[cbiltcliffe]

I'm pretty sure it makes you something along the lines of "grumpy old bastard."

I'll get off your lawn, now. :)

Re:Well of course

[cbiltcliffe]

Natalie Portman + hot grits will come back in style eventually. Imagine a beowolf cluster of Natalie Grits.

I don't know...I think I'd rather a beowulf cluster of hot Portmans. :)

Re:Well of course

[Wovel]

The difference is that Apple will make it right and in a relatively short amount of time. Dell might make it right eventually if there was a safety issue or court mandated recall.

Re:Well of course

[Wovel]

The iphone4 is the number one selling handset (not just smartphone) of 2010. I would imagine there were more minutes of phone conversations on iPhone 4s than any other handset sold in 2010. Maybe it can actually make phone calls and antenna gate was just a load of crap.

Oh Snap, the facts are getting in the way again, sorry.

Re:Well of course

[cbiltcliffe]

Hey, my four year old loves Scooby Doo. And I'm not talking about the new movie. I mean the old animated series from decades ago.

Re:Well of course

[Antisyzygy]

Yep. Funny how Apple fanboi's always say other manufacturers make crappier products and that's why Macs are worth the extra 50-100 percent markup when there are innumerable counterexamples to this stupid claim. My HP ultraportable has great battery life, its thinner/lighter than the Macbook pros, and its made of aluminum. Its sturdy, boots fast, doesn't get hot, and doesn't crash. It also cost about half the price of the cheapest Macbook pro.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

What can you not configure from cmd.exe?

If you want a scripting/batch framework, try Windows PowerShell. It's much more powerful than Bash. The funniest thing about your post is that you utterly fail to realise that you can use Bash or better yet, tcsh in Windows.

Re:Well of course

[Americano]

Many of us have personal firsthand experience about these matters.

Are you seriously suggesting that "anecdote" is the singular form of "data"? Unless your title is "elected representative, people with firsthand experience with these matters," then you're engaging in hand-waving and are full of shit. Vague assertions that "many of us" (most of whom we could probably find posts here indicating that they have never owned, and would never own, an Apple product) know something about this without any more evidence than a link to the single support forum post don't cut it.

I notice that you don't address the actual point of my comments in your haste to chime in. Please explain for us, if you would be so kind, how ~450 forum posts reporting an issue in what is likely to be millions of units shipped in Q1 of 2011 constitutes evidence of anything which may be correctly termed a "very widespread" flaw with the *design of the laptop*? The summary and the headline are nothing but FUD, and you know it.

s/2011 Macbook Pros/New model of Android phone/g in the summary, with the same evidence - a link to a single thread containing a couple hundred support forum posts - and consider whether you'd uncritically accept that article & headline as being accurate, rather than sensationalist?

Re:Well of course

[Americano]

Does it not strike you as disconcerting that the manufacturer of a product pushes a $349(!!) extended warranty for their own product before you get out the door of their company store either?

No, why would it strike me as "disconcerting"? Warranties are huge profit generators for companies that offer them - if they lost money on the arrangement, they wouldn't offer the warranties. I find it no more disconcerting that Apple offers one than I do that every car manufacturer in existence offers the same style of extended protection plan, or that most computer manufacturers offer the exact same style of add-on warranty.

What I learn by being offered a "3 year extended warranty" is that the piece of kit that I'm buying is designed to last - and can reasonably be expected to run - for at least 3 years without any major issues. Extended warranties are "repair insurance" - many people buy them because they provide a little peace of mind - if something goes wrong, you know you have someone who will repair the issue for you. If you're comfortable fixing your own hardware, or you simply don't want to spend the money, then there's no need for it - I'd rather it be offered as an add-on, instead of having the cost built into the price.

Re:Well of course

[jon3k]

Apple Macbook crashing makes front page on slashdot. Every other wintel laptop crashing doesn't even get a passing mention at the water cooler.

Boy, do I feel like an idiot for owning a Mac (core2duo macbook air).

Re:Well of course

[jon3k]

So you're telling me that a laptop that's CNC machined out of a single piece of aluminum is more expensive than one made out of plastic? I think we should alert the press of this shocking development.

Re:Well of course

[lpq]

Um, but w/Dell, you have a choice of 100's of different machines or alternate vendors that will all run the same programs. With Apple, how many competitors do you have to the MacBook Pro?

If a vendor gets too bad a track record -- you switch and all your applications still run fine -- but what do you do on an apple platform?
You're stuck.

That's the big difference.

Re:Well of course

[scot4875]

Except the issues you've listed are all things that took time to discover. It seems like any rudimentary burn-in/load test would have caught this issue before it ever even went into mass production.

--Jeremy

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not talking about the components inside, they're referring to the quality of the enclosure and the software that runs on the machine. In both cases they are correct, it is of higher quality.

Re:Well of course

[jon3k]

cellphones are only used to make phone calls? you're either an idiot or the worst troll ever.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Weird. I just tried launching bash from the run gui, but it's not working. Oh well, at least I could do this from cmd.exe

find / -name "bash.*"

Oops. That didn't work either. Hmmm. Okay:

tcsh

Geez. WTF. I thought you said I could do this from Windows. Oh. I see. You mean by installing a bunch of other packages. Which means that you can do this with ANY machine, not just one that has been modified to appear to be more Unix-like.

The funniest thing about your post is that you utterly fail to realise that you can do all those things with a default install of OS X.

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

3D has taken off in a huge way? What planet do you live on? Care to come back in a year and show us all how badly 3D has failed (again).

The fact that anyone is remotely entertaining the notion that an Asus laptop is somehow superior to a MacBook Pro is kind of funny too. Isn't this kind of like that Buick lover who cites the newest studies showing Buick brand as well as Mercedes/Daimler Benz? As if anyone with a shred of automotive engineering credibility is going to think a Buick is anywhere near a Benz....

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

Initial quality surveys consistently put Apple at the top. If you want to limit Apple hardware to just computers with "serious design flaws" then I'd say, one...in the last 20 years (the toaster looking one)?

Yeah the iPhone 4 thing is known as was burning up wireless extenders a few years ago, but other than that, you can't seriously cite a history of serious flaws in Apple gear, can you?

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

Macs are lost on people like you who only see individual trees where there is a forest. (How's that for hippy/gay mac-hipster speak for you?)

A computer (and therefore its pricing) is far more than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, they'd all cost the same...surprise, go to Best Buy, and all the generic cheap crap from Lenovo/HP/e-machines/whoever, are indeed all pretty much the same price, because they use the same lowest grade components. Apple doesn't do this. Just check the power supplies. My e-machines powersupply (250w) died after two months of adding a 3d card. I picked up a really nice one for $70 (500w, nice cabling, well constructed). Is it really worth shunning a nice $70 power supply and jamming a cheap ass $20 one in there to lower the price by probably $10? Why not spend a little extra so it doesn't blow up and I don't have a negative attitude towards your product?

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

Indeed unacceptable in a $2k machine. But of course this is going on good faith that there actually is a widespread problem and not just a few outliers. Additionally, there is no trending in this direction either.

In other words, nothing to see here.

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

Except you lose credibility trying to use Bentley in an analogy about quality.

Re:Well of course

[stewbacca]

I've owned probably 15 Macs in the past 20 years, and I've never purchased the extended warranty, nor have I ever needed it. ONCE, I had the wrist wrest part of my intel Macbook replaced for free after the warranty expired because Apple recognized it as a lemon problem systemic to all first generation intel Macbooks. And ONCE I got a whole new motherboard AFTER the warranty expired on a G3 233 PowerMac, because of faulty clock-speed controller/design. I got a G3 300(i think), out of it for free.

I don't think Apple is as gracious anymore, given there stronger presence in the market place, but those two acts alone, and of 20 years of this sort of experience, I'll generally pay extra for their stuff. Who knows, maybe it took them 20 years to set me up, now they'll just sell me crap for the next 20?

Re:Well of course

[jon3k]

I don't know if there's anything left to defend. Talk about much ado about nothing. I'm just glad to know that Apple hardware performs so well that when one of them has problems it's so bizarre it makes the front page of slashdot.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

snkiz, you must be retarded. you keep talking to yourself.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

They both do the same thing. I paid $2500 for a Geo Metro and put an additional 150,000 miles on it in 11 years. I parked in the parking garage right next to my co workers that had various BMW and Mercedes in that 10 years. All of the best engineering in the world on those cars didn't make a damn bit of difference as all of their cars and my car made it back and forth to work everyday and was used for all of our errands. Please explain to me how the BMW and the Mercedes were better and how the engineering changed anything? I can tell you that they were 20-30 times more expensive to buy and maintain.

Re:Well of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you missed all of those 3D movies at the theatre, the 3D Blu-Rays, 3D games and the Nintendo 3DS. Whether you personally like it or not is irrelevant when the masses do.

Your response is backed by absolutely no facts. Specifications are hard facts. All you present is some fanatical opinion that Apple somehow has better build quality. Never mind that Apple products are produced in vast, cheap quantities in China. I'll take a product that is made in Taiwan over one made in China any day.

Re:Well of course

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Hi Jack

The bug is fixed. Via Software update. Gee, don't you wish all hardware problems were that easy to fix? In such a short time?

Re:Well of course

[aiht]

What pricing disparity? I am serious. Show me another similar spec, similar hardware, same weight and dimensions, for significantly less money..

People always make this lame argument, no one ever provides a link...

Apple does not control 95% of the over 1k laptop market because all the people who buy laptops in that range are morons..Quite th

Typing too fast on a new Macbook there, perhaps?

Re:Well of course

[UnknowingFool]

You would think so. You'd hope that they tested it on the same exact hardware that customers got. However there may have been slight variances in hardware/software which no one thought would be a problem. For example if it is the video chip, did ATI make the exact same ones as they sent to Apple for testing? They may have been engineering samples too. ATI may have thought that the slight changes they made to the production ones should not have been enough to cause a problem. However Apple also made slight changes to the software that they didn't think mattered either. But the two combined causes problems.

Re:Well of course

[pandrijeczko]

Why not just do "which bash"?

Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Gordonjcp]

How is this in any way newsworthy? A two-line description linking to an ad-heavy forum post about how computers sometimes don't work well when you have a lot of heavy processes running isn't really "News for Nerds".

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

Yes, yes it is. I'm running a table with a single-core Pentium 4, 512Mb of Ram, Intel 945gm graphics and Windows 7 on a 60Gb hard drive, and I expect it NOT to crash. Slow down, maybe,churn, make me frustrated (lol), but I haven't seen computers crash and burn without reason (like faulty drivers, hardware fault) for at least 5 years.

So this IS news for nerds, fanboi. As in, it's news when a computer company with margins like Apple lets its customers down in the name of profit, and nerds (who buy computers) need to know about it. News for nerds.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, talking about how one of the world's most overhyped companies with the most zealous fanboys produces a lemon of a computer that crashes when being stressed is totally not "News for Nerds".

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Gordonjcp]

I'm guessing you're not running your P4 isn't stuffed into a cheap Chinese laptop with an expensive sticker on the front?

My point still stands - people buying crappy cheap commodity hardware shouldn't be surprised when it has problems. No amount of groovy industrial design can make up for a dodgy Foxconn motherboard that's as crap as a Chinese motorbike.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Hazel Bergeron]

Clearly you have low expectations of your computing system. What is your primary platform?

You should try a VAX running VMS in 1985. VMS has had fine grained per-process resource limits since forever and degrades very gracefully. And overheating? My MicroVAX also makes an excellent space heater, but that doesn't seem to bother it.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[anomaly256]

Dude please, Chinese motorbikes are awesome. They just keep going and going.. I saw one there being held together with chicken wire, wood planks, and grass rope and still kicking along fine. I'd like to see a macbook do that!

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

It's a Toshiba Satellite R10 tablet, not a "table" as I mistakenly typed above, and it is VERY slow, but it, like all the other systems I have owned for maybe 10 years+, including my 800MHz Pentium 3 server box (running since 2004 with nary a glitch!), it just doesn't crash and "burn" like stuff used to. It doesn't matter who made it and when, if it works it's great and if it doesn't, then it's not. Apple's markup should allow for a rigorous quality control setup, but obviously in this case Apple has missed the mark.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[WrongSizeGlass]

Dude please, Chinese motorbikes are awesome. They just keep going and going.. I saw one there being held together with chicken wire, wood planks, and grass rope and still kicking along fine. I'd like to see a macbook do that!

As I'm sure you're aware, all Mac compatible accessories including the aforementioned 'chicken wire, wood planks, and grass rope' are specially designed for enduser delight and are therefore priced accordingly.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

Too late. Running away hasn't helped you - and it won't help me. You're at -1, hun. Oh well, bring on the flamewar. Next, they'll be calling me a fat bitch (which I'm not).

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[thetoadwarrior]

I'd say it's more newsworthy because my macbook pro is one version before the 2011 and I can put it under quite a load. To the point I get concerned with how hot it feels but since I'm gaming I find it hard to quit. Anyway, it's never crashed. If the new macbooks are crashed over heavy use then there is probably a flaw somewhere which needs to be resolved.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[thetoadwarrior]

Who is talking about Dell computers?

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[StripedCow]

Problem is, my cellphone outperforms a VAX in terms of FLOPS, even if it crashes once a week.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

A female nerd on slashdot? Did it snow in hell today or something? I must hit that...

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[DarkOx]

See that is the parent posters point! If it had not been for the fact that some part of the bike failed none of that chicken wire and wood would be there. The parts from the OEM were so poor that wood and chicken wire do it better.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[dimeglio]

Ladies, lets not get all emotional about some old hardware. Just return the Mac BookPro and get a new one - problem solved.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Hazel Bergeron]

I would, but VAXen were discontinued in 2000.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Dunbal]

Ad heavy forum post? There is not one single ad on the website (which happens to be the official Apple support forum) or in the posts I saw. You sure you clicked the right link?

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

All I see as a forum discussion, so who "confirmed" it exactly as per the story tile, Netcraft ? That sort of thing used to be considered trolling around here.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[BrokenHalo]

Hey, my Burroughs B3700 was a stupendous space heater back in 1976. If the aircon went out, we had about 40 minutes to stop all our batch processes before the temperature hit 55 degrees C...

[Affects Yorkshire accent:] Them were the days...

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[snkiz]

Must be a typo, there are no women on the internet

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Raenex]

My point still stands- people buying crappy cheap commodity hardware shouldn't be surprised when it has problems.

No it doesn't. Bash commodity hardware made in China all you want, for the most part running a computer under load will not cause it to lock up.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Antisyzygy]

My HP laptop has never crashed or frozen under load. It slows down, sure, but thats to be expected when you are using 80 percent of the ram capacity and 100 percent of both processors for scientific computations. The fact that Apple products do is hilarious to me, because its one more thing that smacks the fanboi's in the face. Apple fanboi's are the biggest pricks I have ever had the misfortune of coming accros. Its time they realized that other manufacturers offer the same or better over Apple and STFU about how great their Mac is. "It just works", yeah right.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the word VAXen was discontinued in 1985.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[stabiesoft]

I call and raise you a 1999 P-II 400 MHz 512M system that still is running along with its brother 450MHz P-II 1G box. I've changed out the hard drives, but both are like the energizer bunny. They just keep going and going. I use one as a file server and one as a 32 bit old linux porting machine.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Gordonjcp]

Sorry, when you said "table" I thought you meant as in database table.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Gordonjcp]

I've got a MicroVAX II sitting in bits that I really should finish, but VMS is so much nicer on the Alpha.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

The proper solution here - assuming there is an actual problem - appears to get an old one.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear, hear! Cut off the dumb bitch's tits!

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Guy Harris]

Well here's my opinion on this Apple overheating situation:

On second thought, never mind. (runs away from AppleFans wielding the -1 mod stick)

Well, if the fans in the Apple machine were working, rather than just wielding the -1 mod stick, maybe it wouldn't be overheating. None of the fans in my MacBook Pro have ever moderated an article; if the fans in somebody's Mac are moderating articles, they need to get the Mac fixed.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Too late. Running away hasn't helped you - and it won't help me. You're at -1, hun. Oh well, bring on the flamewar. Next, they'll be calling me a fat bitch (which I'm not).

Errm, honey - he has no mods on that post. He's at -1 by default because that's one of his many sock puppet troll accounts. In fact, you can bet your money he made that post just for the "Apple is evil - And I'll get modded down for saying it" Karma Whore tactic.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

But we can conclude that you're a lonely attention whore from the fact that you're desperately calling attention to the fact that you're a female, and "not a fat one, either," online, in a forum dedicated to an industry that has a misogynistic streak a mile wide, in a discussion that has absolutely zero to do with being female in tech, or being female on the internet, or being allegedly non-fat and allegedly female in any way.

Man, that's so on the nose that you know she's not going to reply to you. Well done.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Wild_dog!]

ah.... Alpha was a nice machine. I almost touched one once.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[anomaly256]

Name one product where after market accessories aren't superior to the OEM ones! :P

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[ifiwereasculptor]

Dude please, Chinese motorbikes are awesome. They just keep going and going..

True. The brakes do nothing.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

Because my last decent, on-topic troll resulted in a stream of fat bitch on the internet trolls, that's why. So I thought I'd save AC's time... lol... YHBT...

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

I call you, and raise you the clients in that particular office - Pentium 233s with MMX and 128Megs of RAM - and original 5-10gig hard drives, with 10/100 network cards added in the last 5 years!

Windows 2000 Pro is a great client OS if properly locked down and firewalled / firefoxed - heh heh I just coined a pun! (is that a pun?)

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm guessing from your "OH HAI GUISE I IZ A GURL!" non sequitur, you probably did much the same thing when you were modded troll previously, and thus attracted the trolls because you posed out for the attention.

Pro tip: If you single yourself out, you will be singled out. We can't see you, and really don't care what you look like, or if you're a girl. If you have something relevant to offer, offer it. Don't piss and moan about how you were modded after the fact, as if the fact that you have tits means you should be exempted from bad or unfair moderation.

Re:Has Timmeh lost his mind?

[webmistressrachel]

No, actually I didn't. The previous troll was a well-constructed, succint reply to a dumb, rednecked comment about gender, and it didn't mention anything of the sort. And it was responded to in the fashion I described in the post you were trolled by - an attempt to use my gender to imply that I couldn't possibly have administered a virus-free Windows server on a top-level .org domain for 6 years with no trouble whatsoever, ever.

But thanks for playing.

Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[unity100]

Apple does products that 'just work'.

dont dare say anything in contrast - else endless legions of applebois will talk smack to you and prove that those apples didnt crash.

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a feature! Anyone running that many processes obviously needs to take a break.

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[mijelh]

So true... recently a friend of mine asked on Facebook for advise on buying a new computer because hers was always giving her problems. Many people advised her to buy a mac. She then asked if macs have no kind of problems, crashes or malware, and people unanimously answered "not at all".
As I used a mac at work for many years, I wanted to add my two cents, and I commented that macs, as every computer, do have problems, malware and security issues, but are in general great computers. Surprisingly I was crucified by the applebois, even though I provided links to every issue I referred to (most of it directly from apple.com), and even though I said apples are great computers. They will accept not even the least criticism. It's a religion.

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[Anonymous Coward]

most people are religious thinkers, even if they haven't been indoctrinated to believe in god.

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[R3d M3rcury]

Apple products "Just work" until they don't. Then the fanbois fall back to, "Hey, every company has problems."

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Great empircal evidence. Have you any more?

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[stewbacca]

Not to be a trollish ass, but I'm still waiting on that Mac malware....been running one flavor of MacOS and OSX continuously since 1987 and I've got zero malware and using zero antivirus software.

I just blue screened my Win7 PC in less than 6 months under normal use with some sort of virus, and that's with the Norton AV that came with it running on top of the supposed good Win7 security.

I know, one anecdote, but my life is full of this same anecdote every couple of years and every time time I buy a gaming PC.

Yeah, maybe I suck at getting stuff online without getting viruses, but you know what? When I get the same stuff online from my Mac, I don't get the viruses.

Re:Oh come on !!! Give them a slack !!

[mijelh]

How can you be so confident that you have no malware not having and antivirus? Also malware!=virus.
But let's go back to the topic: I know no virus in the wild right now for Mac OS X, but you can bet I see malware on macs quite often. This week for instance I found this: http://ithreats.net/2011/02/25/rat-blackhole/, and also reports on jnanabot (a multi-platform trojan) say that roughly 16% of all infected computers are macs. Of course, when I show this to appleboys they just go: "bah, you just made up those numbers" or "that trojan doesn't really work with mac" and on and on (Of course, pointing out that apple wouldn't have "security updates" if there were no "security issues" doesn't help)
So that's when I have to bring the heavy stuff: Until this september there was a vulnerability allowing a remote attacker to access your shared folders(similar to the issue of windows sharing C$ by default, if you remember that). If you haven't updated, have a link here: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1105
An here there's no possibility for bullshit: you can try it yourself.
One of the biggest issues is that denying a problem makes it impossible to solve it. False sense of security is the main problem in itself, and I know a thing or two about false sense of security: I use linux ;)..
One example of this:you can easily go to shodanhq.com, search for "Apple Embedded Web Server" (the one used by Mac XServers), and chances are you are going to find some SERVERS using default passwords, so you can access them with no problem: http://www.elladodelmal.com/2010/11/tengo-un-xserve-y-te-comparto-mi-raid.html ( in spanish, but google translator is your friend ;)
Cheers

The Great Debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Commence Mac vs. PC debate starting in 3...2...1...

Re:The Great Debate

[WrongSizeGlass]

Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.
PC: Hi, I'm a PC.
[Mac slows down and starts to crash]
Mac: Hey, what's happening to me?
[PC reaches over and starts tickling Mac]
PC: Stop crashing yourself! Stop crashing yourself!
Mac: This isn't supposed to happen! What's going on?
PC: Been there, done that. Get used to it.
Mac: Save me Stevie Won Kejobsie, save me!

you are loading it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

whait a minute, you are loading it wrong.

Re:you are loading it wrong

[semi-extrinsic]

Wait a minute, you're holding it wrong.

FTFY

2011 MBP a stinker?

[Manip]

First we had people pull them apart and report poor build quality, then we had complaints over the insane price of components in Apple's store, and now we have the machines freezing up? I'm all for people spending a little more and getting a higher quality machine but Apple needs to keep up their end of the bargain.

What does Apple have to say one the build quality concerns? The last thing they need is to be considered no better than HP, Gateway, and Dell. Overall I don't think laptops are built "fit for purpose" and haven't been since the IBM days (although business laptops are better). I love all the Dell laptops with 2 hours battery life out-of-the-bx in particular, very useful concept...

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[moderators_are_w*nke]

The Santa Rosa one I have was bad as well. I've got through 2 GPUs and now it has a habit of locking up with the screen flashing every now and then.

My old Powerbook G4 was awesome though, I think the move to Intel may have been more of an exercise in cheaper manufacturing than technical excellence.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[nOw2]

First we had people pull them apart and report poor build quality

One report of some internal untidiness! One!

I love all the Dell laptops with 2 hours battery life out-of-the-bx in particular, very useful concept...

I've had a couple of MBPs pass through my hands in the last year (one new and one refurb, zero defects) - both came fully charged which I thought was a nice touch.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[thetoadwarrior]

My macbook pro easily meets the 7 hour battery life they've claimed (mine is one version before the 2011), it's almost always nearly as cool as when it's off, it's dead silent, starts up and is at a functional desktop within 5 seconds and yes it looks better with it's metal case than some cheap plastic one and it's thinner than what I'd get from Dell. Despite being thinner things like the lid feel much sturdier than a Dell and it comes with everything. THere are even small touches like being able to check the battery life without even turning it on.

I can't vouch for their newest model. It may be utter shit. But having gone through the process of pricing up laptops to get everything I have in my macbook it would cost nearly as much or more in some cases. Part of the reason for this is it seems to be nearly impossible to get an SSD in a laptop which seems retarded but you're looking at quite a big bump up in the price to add the equivalent sized SSD into a Wintel laptop.

Again even if you do get all those things it will still be in a cheap plastic case, it will almost certainly still be thicker, run warmer and louder. I don't think it's any surprise a lot of developers can be seen with Macbooks even if they aren't running OS X. The hardware is quality and it's built in such a way that you end up with something that resembles what a laptop should be rather than some big ugly plastic thing that gives you back pains carrying it around.

People need to take a break from their anti-apple circle jerk and remember that the newest macbook features brand new technology in it like Intel's Thunderbolt. It is just as likely that can cause problems even if you're not actually plugging anything into the port. One thing Apple does do that many other companies don't is adapt new technologies sooner and as a result are more likely to get bit in the ass by something going wrong. One of two things will happen. It can be resolved in a short period through software or maybe the 2011 models will just be notorious for being rubbish and smart people will pass on them and wait for the next iteration where the issue may not exist.

Alternatively they could have had a bad batch of components. It happens to everyone. Just look at how many companies that were affected by Sony's shitty laptop batteries. But of course some people just like to hate on things they can't afford.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Lifyre]

I tend to agree with you especially when it comes to 90% of the offerings out there. That said I bought from a smaller company that me and my friends have had good luck with for a few years and have been impressed with the material and build quality I got for newer parts and lower prices than I could have gotten from the big guys.

If you want a laptop that is solidly built and has decent battery life (I get more than 4 hours of real use) perhaps you should start looking for a reputable smaller builder.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

"fit for purpose"

I wonder how many people know understand that little gem.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an Apple addict and became one after Lenova, in a drive for cheaper prices, destroyed the T-series Thinkpads formerly from IBM. I couldn't find a PC laptop that was of decent quality (I have a Dell business line now at work that is so-so) so I bought a MacBook Pro and Mac Air and have been pro macbook sense. When I need to do some .NET programming I just use a virtual machine. Other than that and the single worst default file manager I've ever seen on an OS I couldn't be more pleased.

That said, If they're having problems then Apple needs to fix them and this is where Apple sometimes falls down (i.e. "just don't hold the phone that way"). IMO their products generally are better build quality and better designed. With the exception of their consumer goods they aren't particularly innovative but they tend to perfect the design and use of existing technology very well. Unfortunately when problems occur they treat their customers like cult members who shouldn't question the leader (and some fanboys deserve that characterization). Fortunately it is rare in my experience that they have any "serious" issues that I can't work around in some way (see I drank the cult kool-aid...or maybe I just can't find anything else that's any better)

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[TheRaven64]

To counter your anecdote with mine, my G4 PowerBook went through four logic boards (I think - a lot. I lost count) while it was under warranty. One replacement was DOA (wouldn't even turn on), GPU died on one (screen corruption everywhere once it got slightly warm), and on the others the solder around the SO-DIMM slots was problematic so it would develop a loose connection to the RAM when it got warm (known problem, but once the warranty expired I just lived with only being able to use one RAM slot).

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Antisyzygy]

My macbook pro easily meets the 7 hour battery life they've claimed

So does my ultra-portable HP with aluminum chassis and 7200 rpm hard drive (Apple sticks with 5400 rpm or sticks their long barbed wiener up your butt for an SSD upgrade.)

But having gone through the process of pricing up laptops to get everything I have in my macbook it would cost nearly as much or more in some cases. Part of the reason for this is it seems to be nearly impossible to get an SSD in a laptop which seems retarded but you're looking at quite a big bump up in the price to add the equivalent sized SSD into a Wintel laptop.

Bullshit, I can price a laptop with everything a Mac has for between half to three-quarters the price. I can even throw in an SSD and keep it as cheap as I just said. Check out the HP Envy or Performance models.

Again even if you do get all those things it will still be in a cheap plastic case, it will almost certainly still be thicker, run warmer and louder. I don't think it's any surprise a lot of developers can be seen with Macbooks even if they aren't running OS X. The hardware is quality and it's built in such a way that you end up with something that resembles what a laptop should be rather than some big ugly plastic thing that gives you back pains carrying it around.

Once again, bullshit. HP even makes laptops with aluminum cases now, and there are other manufacturers that do the same.

People need to take a break from their anti-apple circle jerk and remember that the newest macbook features brand new technology in it like Intel's Thunderbolt. It is just as likely that can cause problems even if you're not actually plugging anything into the port. One thing Apple does do that many other companies don't is adapt new technologies sooner and as a result are more likely to get bit in the ass by something going wrong. One of two things will happen. It can be resolved in a short period through software or maybe the 2011 models will just be notorious for being rubbish and smart people will pass on them and wait for the next iteration where the issue may not exist.

Wrong. Thunderbolt should have no bearing on the OS stability, and if it does then they should not have implemented it in the first place or waited to release the next batch of Macbooks until the stability was handled. Apple is a egotistical wallet rapist. They have the nerve to say they make superior products, charge a ridiculous premium, and then claim "It just works" when time and time again its proven wrong. They didn't even bother to fix the iPhone antenna issue. Some fucking consumer friendly company they are. They just don't give a damn about you or anyone else, and treat the consumer as if they should be glad to even be graced by a Apple product.

But of course some people just like to hate on things they can't afford.

Now you just sound like an asshole. People hate big ego's, and Apple has the biggest one, and they have NO RIGHT TO IT. Or is it cool with you that a company time and time again charges more than their product is worth, treats the consumer like an idiot, and then fails to address hardware issues with any form of refurbishment or recall?

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[TheLink]

I believe lithium batteries store for longer when half charged than when fully charged or low.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

I wonder if these issues are related to the build quality issues -- I seem to recall poor thermal paste being one of the build problems?

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Poor build quality" wasn't ever reported. Look again.

And it's funny - you /.ers always rag on Mac users, but the actual users on the Apple discussion forums are being much more logical than you are.

But, of course, you get marked as 'insightful', here, somehow...

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can afford a macbook, in fact, I currently have a MBP 4,1, the model just before the unibody redesign. Since apple doesn't offer any proper onsite repair, their standard answer to any kind of problem is to reinstall the OS first (at least that's what they told me both for an always hissing soundcard and a rather moody keyboard and touchpad), and the turn around time of all repair shops around here is almost 1 Month, I won't be buying any more apple hardware at all. If they ask higher prices, I expect their service to be better than Dell's, and Dell does indeed fix their shit on the next business day with a better than 90% success rate.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Jicehix]

I for one have been having the same problem with a 2009 MBP, the one with a Core 2 and dual Nvidia cards (9400 ang 9600GT). Using any CPU/GPU intensive app while not in "Power saving" for more than 2 hours would lead to the whole left side of the case overheating seriously, and the screen eventually freezing. Remote login via SSH still works, btw, so I guess some GPU is to blame. Not sure if this really is a "2011" issue.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[FunkSoulBrother]

I'm in the market for a new high performance laptop, and I've been looking a lot at the 2011 Macbook Pros. I've never owned an Apple laptop before so I'm far from a fanboy. I actually tried to tried to price out an HP Envy thanks to your post. It wasn't so much that it wasn't cheaper, its that I couldn't actually get most of the features that Apple is offering -- they just weren't options.

The HP site didn't offer the following things:
-Magnetic power connector -- My current HP Pavillion is dying due to AC jack solder issues. Never again.
-16:10 screen (I need vertical resolution)
-Matte Screen (so I can sit in my backyard and work)
-SSD only option. (they had some sort of hybrid drive as the only addition option for +$580.00!!)

To their credit, HP offered the following better than Apple, in my opinion:
-6 different CPU options so I could fine grain that decision
-Upgrade from 4GB to 8GB of RAM was a reasonable +$60.00, not the rapacious Apple +$200
-User replaceable batteries. (I'm very wary of the certain $100+ charge when the Macbook Pro battery inevitably dies.)

The pricing for these not very comparable machines came to ~$2200 for the HP vs ~$2700 for the Apple, so the HP was definitely cheaper. I just have to decide if a 16:10 matte screen and a non-stupidly designed power jack are worth $500 to me.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Cerium]

For what it's worth, I think those magnetic power connectors are a very effective scam.

Anecdotal evidence:
I have a number of friends who are have Macbooks. And I know at least three of them have had to buy replacement power cables for their Macbooks because the cable itself becomes so worn that it only charges when in a very particular position. I imagine that this is largely due to them pulling on the wire itself to unplug it.
They could probably avoid it by not tugging on the wire and using the base to disconnect it, but that thing seems incredibly tiny and probably a pain to actually get a grip on, but ymmv.

Additionally, I've watched one of their Macbooks get dragged across a table when someone tripped on the power cable. The magnet did give, but not before dragging the laptop a good foot or so. So, it's not necessarily as fail-safe as one would imagine (Though, I'm sure my non-magnet power thingy equipped laptop would have been thrown clear off the table given the same situation).

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[FunkSoulBrother]

Well, to be totally honest I've had to repair/replace my last THREE laptops (Dell, Asus, and HP) due to failure of the AC jack and thus failure to charge. I can't pinpoint exactly what I do to beat them up so much, but it happens to be every time (a little Googling suggests this is a common failure point).

I'm thinking at least in my use case the MagSafe would be a big boon. Replacing the cable, even at Apple prices, has to be cheaper than internal repair on the laptop (which I've been quoted for the above failed models, over $150 every time, for a repair on a laptop that is usually worth 300-400 by the time it breaks).

So while I agree Apple could have done it better (my iPhone cable is frayed as hell and barely hanging on), the magnetic connector seems like a big plus in their column, to me.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

My Macbook Pro's battery lasts roughly 4 hours if it's not doing anything, even less doing anything strenuous. It's hot enough to fry an egg on when processing, and warm to the touch when idling. Boot times are quick, but the performance is still outclassed by my buddy's ubuntu laptop. I must've gotten a dud..

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[sammcj]

OP Here, I do agree with the above. It's important it gets recognition, Apple should have responded (or even answered their phones!) immediately to the issue. It is a shame to see such a huge problem out in the wild after spending so much on a product that 'passed' testing. It's a right pain in the neck for those of us who purchased the new MBP to convert video etc... and it's the one thing we can't do (reliably)!

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[thetoadwarrior]

I agree. If it's a genuine problem it has to be fixed. It's unacceptable under any circumstance but it's especially unacceptable for high cost items like a macbook even if it's a justified higher cost.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Antisyzygy]

Also check out Asus. They have historically the lowest failure rate in their products. Its even less failures than Apple (as a matter of fact many manufacturers have lower failure rates than Apple). They do offer some models with SSD and aluminum chassis. If you must have a SSD on a different non-SSD model then you can at least install one yourself on most other manufacturer laptops as they always have these bays accessible (Apple doesn't anymore probably because they charge you up the wazoo for extra RAM and hard drive capacity). After you install the SSD you can use the recovery disc included (you have to pay extra for HP) and it will reformat the SSD to be just like the original PC. My wife actually owns a Macbook Pro and the magnetic power cable is very finnicky. Sometimes it won't charge unless you jostle it around, and it also gets knocked out of the socket really easily if our little dog walks past it and catches it on their foot. I believe its because they put fragile and bendable pins on the connectors. In comparison, on my HP the dog can catch its foot on the cable and it just stays runs off their foot without yanking the cable out or pulling the laptop away from me. I think the lesson here is that no matter what power cable you have, you need to take care. The Envy also may not be the best option for you, also check out the HP Performance models. They have aluminum chassis except for the bottom which is plastic. Its actually nice this way, as it has more of an ergonomic feel and doesn't slide around on tables like Macbooks do (or get scratched up). One thing to consider is that aluminum chassis is sort of a gimmick at times. You can get great sturdy laptops made of plastic. If you still prefer aluminum over and equally sturdy plastic laptop its only for the flash of it.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[thetoadwarrior]

So does my ultra-portable HP with aluminum chassis and 7200 rpm hard drive (Apple sticks with 5400 rpm or sticks their long barbed wiener up your butt for an SSD upgrade.)

I'm not saying you can't get the same but it's definitely not common and no their SSD option isn't that expensive. It's certainly not the cheapest option on the net but It's not that cheap buying an SSD on its own. BTW, I believe because of the SSD I can easily get over 10 hours even if I'm just browsing or using vim.

Bullshit, I can price a laptop with everything a Mac has for between half to three-quarters the price. I can even throw in an SSD and keep it as cheap as I just said. Check out the HP Envy or Performance models.

I'd still say 3/4 of the price is only just on the border of being close enough that I'd still weigh up the weight of the two, the look and everything else. Though I still question whether you could find something of the same spec and quality for 3/4 the price.

Wrong. Thunderbolt should have no bearing on the OS stability, and if it does then they should not have implemented it in the first place or waited to release the next batch of Macbooks until the stability was handled. Apple is a egotistical wallet rapist. They have the nerve to say they make superior products, charge a ridiculous premium, and then claim "It just works" when time and time again its proven wrong. They didn't even bother to fix the iPhone antenna issue. Some fucking consumer friendly company they are. They just don't give a damn about you or anyone else, and treat the consumer as if they should be glad to even be graced by a Apple product.

Sure if it turns out it is a problem with thunderbolt and it's in Apple's hardware / software then they damn well better sort it out. That goes without saying.

But if it's a third party app that is causing problems then yes I would hope Apple helps get to the bottom of it and gives a solution but it's not really their fault any more than any other hardware developer is responsible for someone's potentially bad coding.

For example if you think to ask you may find some mobile internet dongles will bring OS X and cause you to reinstall the system. Best I can tell is it's because some companies don't bother looking into the problem until it arises and even then they don't tell you to get the update when you buy the thing and you don't see the problem until you restart the system. Luckily someone at work bricked their work macbook with a dongle and I knew to avoid that company and made sure to ask around.

Even if you could blame the original problem on Apple the mere fact they're still happy to sell the product without the fix and say nothing means it's the dongle's provider that is at fault for bricking your system.

Now you just sound like an asshole. People hate big ego's, and Apple has the biggest one, and they have NO RIGHT TO IT. Or is it cool with you that a company time and time again charges more than their product is worth, treats the consumer like an idiot, and then fails to address hardware issues with any form of refurbishment or recall?

So what is the reason then people will sit there and re-tell the same stupid lies like saying the Mac App store follows the same rules as the iOS one which is patently false. There are numerous apps that download or run external code and there are GPL open sourced apps or say stupid shit like their $400 laptop is exactly the same as a macbook pro.

To me that says it's jealousy especially when a lot of them turn out to be teens but even if I'm wrong whatever their reason doesn't justify the crap they spout.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[thetoadwarrior]

I agree with that. If they caused a problem they need to speak up. If something other software causes problems and they haven't found the problem yet they need to at least tell people they're looking into it. If it's a hardware fault they need to offer people a refund or a new macbook with fixed hardware.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey FUCK YOU buddy, I can afford a mac, so go home with your uppetty bullshit, all you mac fags think you are better than everyone else because you have a mac, well suck steve jobs dick you sack of shit. You can't feel how hot it runs because you have fucking METAL between you and the hot parts you stupid shithead, of course you can feel more heat thru polycarbonate, yeah thats right mac faggot its not plastic you stupid fuck, its polycarbonate, you know, the stuff they make BULLET PROOF windows out of?? Why don't you do some research before you run off at the mouth homo. Not only that but there have been tons and TONS of problems in crapple computers, batteries exploding, computers running hot and over heating, check out the macbook air some time dip shit. Face it, your crapple computer has the SAME hardware as what is in a PC, there is nothing magical about them, and they put their hardware inside of a metal case, yeah thats a great idea trap the heat, and they have been using this same plain design shit for years now, I thought apple was supposed to be all artsy fartsy and creative? A laptop in the form of a smooth plain rectangle and one color, wow, that is fucking amazing. Why don't you go shoot yourself in the face.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

"all that" or... im guessing your model uses an Nvidia GPU. Intel and ATI don't mix well. I have two MBPs. One of each variety. The ATI macbook is useless. The Nvidia runs OS X wonderfully, great for browsing and coding Android Apps. I dual-boot with Windows 7 too. I don't know if newer ATI chips have fixed the EFI compatibility error that made Windows Drivers a separate package, rarely in parity with their normal drivers. While Nvidia uses the same driver package regardless of IBM clone or EFI mac. My "Wintendo" bought over a year ago is still able to play DX10 games with full effects on.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're both worthless. God damn nerds arguing about every little spec, thinking the world actually cares about their little brain battle. The real nerds are doing something useful.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

Shill.

In 2009 I bought an HP Pavillion dv7 laptop from Costco for $1199 USD. It came with 4gb RAM, Vista 64bit SP1, 500gb HDD, geforce 9600M GT 512M (capable of also using 2gb of system RAM), 17" anti-glare 1440x900, full-size keyboard, and best of all, blu-ray/dvd.

At the time, the MBP with 17" had a slightly better screen, smaller HDD, geforce 8400 or 8800 can't remember (the one that turned out to overheat, sound familiar?), 4gb RAM, OS X, and worst of all no blu-ray. It cost ~$2799 USD.

A fucking joke, I laugh while typing this on said dv7 :P

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's hardware is not better than the rest. Once you take them apart you soon realise they are pretty shotty really. In fact I've had to fix older Mac laptops (5 years older than this) and know quite well that they generally are much harder to repair because connector pieces break off easily and so on. Macs are lower quality than the Lenovo or ThinkPad. If I were to buy a laptop it definitely would be Lenovo and not Mac. I have a Lenovo with GNU/Linux. I also have a Penguin laptop. Both are pretty darn good quality wise.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those power cables (it's really an assembly with the power supply) are covered under AppleCare, and I've even seen them being replaced out of warranty -- I believe there was a recall/replacement campaign for MagSafe power adapters. Did your friends talk to Apple about those issues?

Anyway, a new magsafe supply can be had on eBay for decent price. Make sure you get correct wattage!

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[tonymus]

The issue here is the 2011 MacBook Pro release, not the one you have. If I paid from $1200 to $2500 for a laptop, I kind of hope it...works. The companies that have problems with build quality, both hardware and software, SHOULD take heat from consumers about defective products. When Microsoft released Vista, Apple ran with the "Vista Sucks" (I'm a Mac) ads for more than a year. What goes around, come around...

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's funny that folks keep comparing "we're quality" Apple to "we sell stuff cheaply" Dell. Why not compare Apple to other PC manufacturers who claim to be quality? IBM? HP? Asus? Toshiba? Dell has always marketed itself as 'decent for the price', not 'designer quality'.

ooo... you beat Dell in quality?

*golf clap*

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

starts up and is at a functional desktop within 5 seconds

Really, 5 seconds? Post a video.

it looks better with it's metal case than some cheap plastic one

Most laptop vendors sell a few lines; from cheap & nasty plastic, to high-end metal finish. You should look around the market a little harder.

and it's thinner than what I'd get from Dell.

True, Apple do have an obsession with thin.

Despite being thinner things like the lid feel much sturdier than a Dell

Again, your experience seems to be with low-end plastic laptops. Have a look at their XPS range.

it comes with everything.

How vague a statement. Does it include a coffee maker, or fleshlight?

THere are even small touches like being able to check the battery life without even turning it on.

Again, showing your inexperience. Any laptop I can think of, has a built-in button on the battery to let you check the charge.

People need to take a break from their anti-apple circle jerk

Equally, you need to take a break from the pro-apple circle jerk

remember that the newest macbook features brand new technology in it like Intel's Thunderbolt.

Hmm, I don't have any Thunderbolt compatible products yet, so it might be a while before I can use that port. How are Apple coming along with eSata? Oh, right...

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

People need to take a break from their anti-apple circle jerk and remember that the newest macbook features brand new technology in it like Intel's Thunderbolt. It is just as likely that can cause problems even if you're not actually plugging anything into the port.

Does not compute. Is this sarcasm?

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[gravis777]

One thing Apple does do that many other companies don't is adapt new technologies sooner and as a result are more likely to get bit in the ass by something going wrong.

:COUGH:Blu-Ray!

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is lets let Apple sell premium based laptop products, without proper testing & QA. Well they already did it with the Iphone (antenna problem), why should the macbook not be let off the hook as well? I'm sure all the legions of Apple cool-aid drinkers would agree.

Basically Apple screwed up , if the same happened to another manufacturer I'm sure people would jump down on them, why does Apple deserve special treatment?

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[jedidiah]

> it's almost always nearly as cool as when it's off, it's dead silent, starts up and is at a functional desktop within 5 seconds ...as others have posted: If you think it is cold and silent then I dispute the idea that you actually ever take any advantage of that "desktop class" hardware.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

How's that "brand new technology" Firewire coming along?

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know you, but I've been able to check the battery life on Dell laptops since at least 2002, without turning them on.

Re:2011 MBP a stinker?

[Anonymous Coward]

having gone through the process of pricing up laptops to get everything I have in my macbook it would cost nearly as much or more in some cases

I don't know what features you speak of, but I priced out a Dell vs a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and the equivalent MacBook came out to almost double the price.

Using it wrong

[Stele]

You must be using it wrong.

Re:Using it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Try holding it differently.

Re:Using it wrong

[jovius]

I keep wondering why LOAD "*",8,1 keeps crashing Macs.

Re:Using it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely correct. They work best when the power is off. It's in the manual.

Re:Using it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, 'Holding it wrong'...

Re:Using it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear Jobs himself will be handing out rubber bands to fix the problem.

Re:Using it wrong

[Dahamma]

Yeah, stop putting your finger over the 0.5mm gap on the side, that where all the heat should exhaust!

Re:Using it wrong

[DiamondGeezer]

I laughed, which means I'm really old...

Re:Using it wrong

[Mr. Munshun]

You must be *holding* it wrong. There, fixed that for you.

Re:Using it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"Don't hold it that way"

Re:Using it wrong

[stewbacca]

I had TWO C64 floppy drives, so my command was different.

Probably thermal paste issue

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is the same issue that the apple laptops faced when they switched over to intel processors, than it's a manufacturing issue with not enough thermal paste being applied. It happens because of people's fanatical need to have the slimmist iThing on the market, so Apple's laptops are very sensitive to overheating because proper heat dissipation is the LAST thing on their minds.

Re:Probably thermal paste issue

[gimpboy]

You've clearly been reading up on this because that is essentially the opposite of what was concluded on the thread referenced in the initial posting. The only public strip down from iFixit shows ample thermal paste being used (they think it's too much). I've been working with this for the last week and my vote goes to a driver or firmware issue.

Re:Probably thermal paste issue

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Mod parent up.

I was thinking the same. Article to excessive thermal paste on Slahdot: http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/02/28/233215/New-MacBook-Pro-Teardown-Reveals-Shoddy-Assembly

When Apple switched to Intel, the first MacBook Pro machines had thermal issues due to too much paste. It seems Apple addressed this issue in manufacture in later models, but it has reappeared in the 2011.

Re:Probably thermal paste issue

[dimeglio]

Steve Jobs hates noisy fans. I hear there's often unreasonable demands made to the hardware engineering group - remember the Apple ///? - which might be the cause of this little problem. A software patch to make the fan come on earlier would probably fix it.

Re:Probably thermal paste issue

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a not-so 'similar' problem with my secondary C2D M11x laptop. Very occasionally a single core randomly deadlocks causing 100% idle load. A DirectX driver (dxgkrnl.sys) is triggering millions of hardware interrupts. I figure I'll run a kernel debugger next weekend to trace the problem.

The joys of inferior laptop drivers and hardware. I still miss desktops, fleetingly and about twice a year.

Apple is Notorious for Going "Cheap" on Hardware

[GSpot]

This is not surprising. Apple it famous for overcharging for underpowered hardware. Steve just gives barely enough performance so that his products are marginally usable, yet you are first in line for the next release to get that 10% bump in performance.

Anecdotal evidence go

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a service environment for Macs. A top store for sales (non-apple store). We have not seen this issue yet, but one of our employees actually returned his new machine because of a kernel panic using Logic. Could be related. I suspect the majority of our customers don't put the machines through much.

Re:Anecdotal evidence go

[leuk_he]

I doubt you will see this much. There a 3 kind of services a service organisation can deliver.

1. Do a a reinstall of the OS and hope it was some driver conflict that goes away with this.
2. Replace the hardware for the user.

In those cases the use has to do a complete backup/restore for something they are not even sure it is the solution.

3. You can search for the root cause and reproduce it. and maybe even fix this.

Finding the root cause for different problems (in the forum thread you can clearly see some load problem with or without video driver problems), and rolling in out to all users, including those who do not have a problem (yet).

because 1 & 2 you will never get to 3....

If someone is going to state "very widespread"...

[acidfast7]

which I don't think one can do ... because it's either widespread or not ... can that person at least provide a percentage? I'm mean ... even if a few 1000 machines have problems it's still a negligible percentage. And, how would this value compare to the normal failure rate from other manufacturers? I don't know, and I can't really compare it, because this fantastic article doesn't provide any information for gauging what "very widespread" means. It's just another anti-Apple article.

why do I even read /. anymore ... I must be addicted to the internet in an unhealthy manner :(

Much ado about nothing ...

[SirJorgelOfBorgel]

Look, I severely dislike Apple, their products, their methods, and their policies.

However, this seems to be much ado about nothing. I have actually read the entire thread, and it appears to be a simple software issue that can be resolved by disabling some fan control package. The issue does not occur under stress testing in Windows 7. Put those two together, the issue becomes one or two bad packages, which will be resolved in an update sooner or later (for those that blew $3k on a computer, I hope sooner).

Of course, how Apple has handled the situation is abysmal, and I'm quite surprised seeing the people in the thread defending Apple support as they do.

In the end though: nothing to see here, move along, this is not a reason for major Apple bashing or Apple vs PC debates, and yes, even Apple can and does release bugged software now and then.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[Anonymous Coward]

But....if people listen to you they can't passionately debate their side in an opinion-only argument. That is why no one will pay attention to your stupid "sound logic".

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I severely dislike Apple, their products, their methods, and their policies.

The fact that you have to start your comment with that phrase here on Slashdot only shows that they are beyond rational discourse.

I'll take the "article" for what it's worth, and if it turns into something more then I'll base my buying decisions upon it.

Until then, I'll watch the flame wars with bemusement and curiosity on how people can get so worked up over a manufactured product.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[unityofsaints]

I assume you mean buggy software, or else Apple really is the modern-day Gestapo like I feared all along!

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[SirJorgelOfBorgel]

Breaking news: reality not exactly as described by others - basementdwellers swear revenge!

To the xkcd, trusty sidekicks!

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[kestasjk]

We should stick to more critical failures, like a floating point unit that returns 1.33381 when it should return 1.33382

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[BorgDrone]

No. Much to do about something. Apple fan boys love to scream that apple's jsut work when the reality is they have been plague with their own problems all along.

It's never good enough for some people. If this is indeed caused by iStat's fan control, then people who installed this had to give this app root access to modify the SMC.

So what is Apple to do ? Lock down OSX like iOS ? People like you would start screaming that Apple users don't own their own machine, Apple is evil, bla bla bla. Just like they do for iPhone/iPad. On the Mac you can get access to the whole system if you want, and when people do and break their system is Apples fault too ?

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[TavisJohn]

The reason why some people will support apple no matter what it does is because they are religious about it. Yes some people take supporting apple to religious extremes. (No murdering.... yet)
I have had Apple followers try to "convert" me, and the way they spoke was almost word for word what people "Spreading the word of god" said!

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[dominious]

damn I had to read your post to understand that we are talking about processing load and software crash.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading through the thread I don't reach this conclusion. What people have to disable is the high-end video chip in the system, not just some fan control software. There is now a method to repeatably get the system to crash under heavy load without tinkering with the fan. Basically, you can't used the non-integrated video chip and run heavy load at the same time without the system crashing.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[sammcj]

OP here... I'm pro-Apple but definitely not a blind fanboy. Worst part of me is that I live in New Zealand and Apple refuse to answer their phones on Sundays no matter how many thousand you spend on their products...

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[mjwx]

Look, I severely dislike Apple, their products, their methods, and their policies.

The fact that you have to start your comment with that phrase here on Slashdot only shows that they are beyond rational discourse.

Actually, it shows the contrary, he's admitting his bias up front which shows he is capable of analysing his own bias and compensating for it.

Your comment on the other hand shows that you aren't capable of this, further more you feel compelled to attack anyone who does not share your point of view, which goes to show you are not capable of discussing the issue rationally.

BTW, I have read the article and disagree with the GP. To me this sounds like a serious overheating issue. I've had a few in the past, a bad fan on a northbridge caused my SATA drives to become unwritable and lock up the systems (windows and Linux don't like it when you cant write to disk), replaced the cooler and my data was accessible again. Had a video card that was overheating which was causing the system to blue screen during any game that was remotely taxing on the card, turns out the HSF assembly had detached from the card. To be fair, the card was 3 years old which I replaced.

Heat issues are almost always hardware based, not software based. When heat is causing problems in a laptop it is always down to bad design.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[Anonymous Coward]

ditto

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[Anonymous Coward]

He just disclosed that he's not an apple fan boy so that you wouldn't think he was biased in favor of Apple. Lighten up.

Re:Much ado about nothing ...

[stewbacca]

Actually, it shows the contrary, he's admitting his bias up front which shows he is capable of analysing his own bias and compensating for it

Actually, no, that's simple bias at best, some sort of red herring appeal to neutrality at worst. It's one thing to give "full disclosure", such as "I work for Company X who advertises with TV Show Y" but it's something completely different to say, "I hate Apple because of all their faggy hipster fanbois". You can't say "I severely dislike Apple for reasons a, b, c" and then have someone take your opinion seriously, especially if reasons a, b, and c aren't very compelling reasons to hate them.

Re:Apple is Notorious for Going "Cheap" on Hardwar

[JamesP]

How's battery life on the competition again?!

And I wouldn't call a i5 notebook 'underpowered'.

It's not a bug

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.
And you have the right to receive a new sleeve completly free.
Oh thank you Steve.

Confirmed?? By whom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Confirmed?? By whom?

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[danbuter]

Read the article. It might save you looking stupid.

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[Shikaku]

Netcraft, obviously.

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[Overzeetop]

Wait, so is Apple dead, or is it Steve Jobs?

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, so is Apple dead, or is it Steve Jobs?

There's a difference?

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[danbuter]

I would hate to own Apple stock when Steve dies. I bet it loses half it's value.

Re:Confirmed?? By whom?

[Megane]

It's not an "article", it's a link to a complaint thread on Apple's support webboard. It's not even a link to a specific message that "confirms" something.

Maybe you need to RTFA first to save yourself from looking stupid.

And I reiterate GP's question with a nice fat [Citation Needed]. Even a message number from that thread would be less useless than the link as it is.

Lemons deserve mud

[perpenso]

Do you want a list of Dell models that my employer has concluded have design flaws or do you just want to fling mud at Apple? (here's a hint: Every manufacturer has issues with their machines, including Apple).

Yes every company has the occasional lemon but they deserve to have mud flung at the lemon. It's part of the incentive system to get it right.

Part of the justification of higher prices for Macs is that they are of higher quality than Dells. So your argument is not convincing. Furthermore what percentage of Dell's laptop sales does your list represent? Are they high end models? Compare that to what percentage of Apple laptop sales the MacBook Pro represents and where the MacBook Pro stands with respect to Apple's high end offerings.

In short, IF the reports of problems are bogus then flame on. But IF the reports of problems are accurate why excuse them?

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[Americium]

They get hacked quicker than Windows and now this? Paying twice the price for something that lasts half as long as their competitors seems nonsensical to me. Although they do look pretty, and that counts a lot. Posted from my 4yr old $500 (at the time) Acer. The battery went about 2 yrs ago, so if I had a Mac I'd have to upgrade and be out $2,000 by now.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[Billly Gates]

You know every car has bugs right. We accepted (our parents if you are under 45) that cars will never last past 100k miles, will always leak oil, and always have engine and transmission problems every 35 0 45k miles. That is just what they do and calling it a lemon was silly.

The Japanese showed us otherwise in the late 1970s and 1980s.

If I am paying that much for an Apple you bet your ass that it better work! Otherwise I can save a fortune buying an emachine or Dell if quality is not different. That is the difference as Apply fanbois tell us there machines are supperior.

I think calling them out will help make everyone have better machines. Apple needs to fire some people. No offense but some iPhone and the first generation of intel macs had numerous problems. Why do they keep having them? Revision B ones are the best bet for any Apple even if they are 6 months older.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[perpenso]

"Lemons" are not the things that wear out over time. "Lemons" are the things that are have problems when new.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[xrobertcmx]

Why would you have to upgrade? My circa 2005/6 MacBook is running just fine, (gen 1 core duo), the Core 2 MacBook Pro I have is suffering no issues (2006), and my newer 09 MacBook Pro has no issues. The first two placed with family but I still end up upgrading them.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[tiedemann]

*All* MacBooks and MBP's older than 3 yrs belonging to people in my immediate surroundings have problems with hanging/freezing and/or screen glitches.
2 years ago one of my closest friends had to return his brand new 17" MBP *four times* due to broken hardware.
Apple != quality.

I'm not saying others are better, just that the hype surrounding Apple hardware is bollocks.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[Wovel]

Well the equivalent MBP to your Acer actually does not exist, they don't make anything that crappy. But to get close to that crappy would have only been about $999 at the time.

That one also would have had a user replaceable battery.

Out of warranty replacement of batteries on late model MBPs is $129 directly from Apple or less from third parties.

Sorry to confuse all your bullshit with actual facts.

Re:Lemons deserve mud

[Americium]

I meant you'd have to buy another Mac, thus spending $2,000 total. I did not know you could replace their batteries, but either way you can't replace them now. So just move my story 1 or 2 yrs forward and it all makes sense, and is a reason not to buy a mac.

Re:Apple is Notorious for Going "Cheap" on Hardwar

[MadChicken]

Explain how a quad-core i7 laptop is underpowered, please & thanks.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

You're addicted to /something/ in an unhealthy manner, but it's not /.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

From reading the actual discussion of at the Apple support boards it seems someone from there submitted it to Slashdot. All they have is speculation and the feedback of people who came to the board because specifically they were experiencing problems. There's no way of telling how many machines are really affected or what the problem is at this point. The consensus on the board seems to point to some GPU driver/firmware issue that locks up the interface while still allowing some people to ssh into it.

Anon because I've already modded.

It is caused by

[toxygen01]

iStat menu (most probably).

for those tl;dr:
most of the users report that after uninstalling istat menu pro (and it's "fan control" set to on by default) the problem goes away...

keep panicking...

Re:It is caused by

[GrumblyStuff]

We can keep panicking? Phew.. I mean, AAGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

Re:It is caused by

[qengho]

Thanks for distilling the thread. Removing iStat Menus fixed the freeze for me. Off to notify the developer....

Re:It is caused by

[sk19842]

iStat isn't necessary to cause the problem. Most people seem to be able to reproduce the issue by opening Photo Booth and trying to install/compile Boost from MacPorts (per these directions). FWIW, following these directions just crashed my 2011 15" MBP.

It seems to be an ATI graphics card issue, because some people report that they can get a stable machine by setting their graphics to integrated only with gfxCardStatus.

Re:It is caused by

[Anonymous Coward]

But but but *it just works*

Re:It is caused by

[Anonymous Coward]

My brand new MBP 17" locked up three times last night, and I don't have iStat installed.

Re:It is caused by

[sammcj]

That's no true so don't spread uninformed rubbish. There are a pile of people having the problem who have never installed istat pro or any other fan controller.

Re:It is caused by

[sammcj]

including myself by the way..

Re:It is caused by

[Anonymous Coward]

explain this to people who acknowledged that...
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2045744&cid=35550498

Software Related

[amiga3D]

According to the thread this is software related. Removing smcfancontrol seems to be fixing the problem. I have to wonder how that got out the door.

Re:Software Related

[jmaline]

Smcfancontrol is 3rd party software, not Apple.

I've long wanted macfixit.com to have some prominent indicator on stories about problems. The indicator? I'M AN IDIOT AND I INSTALLED SOME LOW-LEVEL "HAXIE" AND IT CAUSED PROBLEMS. BECAUSE WHO COULD IMAGINE THAT PATCHING CHANGES INTO SOMEONE ELSE'S SOFTWARE COULD HAVE BAD SIDE-EFFECTS. AS I SAID I'M AN IDIOT.

OK, maybe a little wordy. But it'd help me quickly skip articles reporting "problems" where the "fix" was to uninstall some crazy low-level hack.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Jobs was not there 110% of the time riding shotgun on QC, Design, Marketing etc etc etc .... Apple without Jobs is doomed.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

When you say "got out the door", are you talking about how Apple allowed the machine to be released with this "flaw"? In case you don't know, smcfancontrol is not apple-provided software.

Who could ever guess that if you're running unsupported third-party packages that monkey around with power management settings it could make your machine crash? I mean, that's just nuts.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you a fairly sizable amount. I'm not as much of a control person as others are and prefer to use my OS as installed. It appears that practice has ensured that I won't have this specific problem.

Yay.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

They could always just shorten it to IIISLHCPBWCITPCSESCHBSISII. Yeah, maybe not.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

I and others have reported that doing a clean install of Snow Leopard still does not fix the issue. i7 2.3Ghz, 8GB.

Re:Software Related

[ChrisKnight]

My brand new MBP 17" locked up three times last night, and I don't have SMCFanControl installed.

Re:Software Related

[sammcj]

smcfancontrol is not the problem. :/

Re:Software Related

[sammcj]

Not true, standard fresh install on my 2011 MBP 2.2 15'' has this issue.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

2011 macbook pro owner here. Why should a third party app even have the capability of crashing the machine? The only third party application other than browsers that I have installed is Armagetronad, and I have this issue.

Re:Software Related

[IgnitusBoyone]

I didn't make it that far in the thread, but I want to go through the trouble of pointing out that the software package in question is out of date by at least one revision of OS X and not designed for the hardware they run it on. That was written for the 1,1 and 1,2 macbooks and I don't know if its ever been updated.

Re:Software Related

[bytesex]

Some people use their computers seriously. GPG encrypts my whole disk - something Apple does only crappily itself (why Apple, why ?). It's a third party app, but if it wanted to, it could do more than crash my machine. Much more.

Re:Software Related

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an 08' MBP and recently got the logicboard replaced pro bono with Apple and Nvidia's settlement. SMC fan control helped emensely before the replacement to regulate the fan with streaming video, using CPU hog apps like Preimere. Some of the odd events I ran into with SMC was versions of Flash player never Silverlight,Quicktime or DivX but Flash set the fan off a few times. This head scratcher led me to believe it was the player or versions of it for some time. The fan also jumped to higher RPM when the battery reached 100% and a video was playing from time to time, I unplugged it, set SMC again and it was fine some instances of having to reset it taking the battery out, hold power btn. Long story short SMC was an enigma and since having the LB replaced it's been fine. Obviously the newer MBP's are configured differently with the i7 processor, logicboard and video card, I think the culprit in this may have been Nvidia.

no apple likes thin and does not like fans / noise

[Joe The Dragon]

no apple likes thin and does not like fans / noise and that's why a $1200 and $1500 system have on board video.

Come make a little bigger system with better cooling.

Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[mario_grgic]

I bought top of the line 2010 17'' Macbook Pro fully loaded with matte screen too. Loved the machine (it was almost as fast as my 8 core Mac Pro), but it would freeze unexpectedly, and not necessarily under load either. So, after some research I found similar killometer long thread on apple discussions forum. So, I reluctantly and sadly returned it to Apple for full refund. I'm extremely happy with the customer service (they didn't ask me any questions or pressured me to keep it or anything, just said "So, what do you want to do?", i.e. attempt a replacement or refund). But, I'm not happy with the fact that you can spend $4000 on a computer and have it not working. Now I'm scared to even attempt to buy another one. It's somewhat of a disappointing experience.

I should also mention that I have 7 other Macs (of which only one portable - 2008 Aluminum Macbook) that all worked out of the box without a single issue. So, I don't know if only their top of the line Macbook Pros have these issues due to heat dissipation or something else?

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

While I can't say I've seen this problem across other models, it does seem like there is always something with most models from Apple. It seems like half of them end up with some known hardware issue listed in the service manual. If this problem ends up being a software fix, I actually see that as a good thing for Apple and the consumers.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[thefixer(tm)]

Please, I paid over $5k for a loaded Viao when 1920x1200 screens were first available in laptops. The thing was rotten to the core, HD issues, restore image issues, slow, slow, slow, ran hot, heavy as hell, went back to service at least 3 times for different issues before giving up. And it's the standard, not the exception for PC laptops (have similar stories for Dell, HP, Compaq back in the day), windows hardware quality labs certifications are a joke, and it shows when you buy a PC.

As soon as I could replace it with a MacBook Pro with the same screen size, I did. Used parallels to get by on any Windows work and spent a lot more time working and a lot less time waiting to see if the machine was just paging (WTF?! w/4GB of memory, btw) or if it had really gacked and needed a reboot.

As others have said earlier, yes Apple makes mistakes, but they consistently get it right more often than other companies, and the fact that they don't just shoot out a poorly tested fix which might introduce other problems the instant they hear about a problem is an indication of their commitment to quality. I guarantee that right now, there is an engineering team and a quality group working on this fix and making sure that they get it right. Not just fixing the problem that's reported, but making sure that that fix doesn't break something else.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Antisyzygy]

To make it an easier process next time, mail me 4000 dollars, I will kick you in the nuts, and if you don't like it Ill refund your money 100 percent.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny ... I have the top of the line 2010 MBP, only thing I skimped on was the 256 SSD instead of the 512, everything else is maxed out, CPU, memory, matte screen. I haven't had freeze or crash problems, and I beat the hell out of this thing (ie. load testing code destined for server use on it). You mention heat dissipation, with the SSD option, mine is constantly cool to the touch. The only thing I've encountered is about once in every dozen are so wake from sleeps, the password prompt take about a second to begin responding. However, considering I probably have only rebooted this thing a dozen times over the last year, half of those for software updates, I consider it extremely stable. FWIW, the other reboots were of my doing, runaway processes on programs I was working on that I didn't catch in time to shutdown cleanly. I can't recall this laptop ever crashing on me.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the same model 17 inch MacBook. I take the processor to 100% almost daily for hours on end and have never had an issue. It is possible to have manufacturing defects in any product from any vendor despite all the quality controls in place. To have one problem and then be afraid of everything that manufacturer makes is just silly. As a long time Mac owner I've only ever had warranty work done on one of my macs and I've never invested in apple care. I've had issues out of warranty, usually 5 or more years out of warranty. I consider 5 years of trouble free use pretty good for any computer from any manufacturer.

I'm sure people have problems with their Apple products but if they we're as bad as you seem to imply, Apple would go out of business. Of all the computer companies out there, hardly anyone buys Mac because they have to. Most buy Apple because they want to. If the quality of thier products were truly scary, it wouldn't be long before no one would want to.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[mario_grgic]

If you read my comment you will realize that I have 7 macs that never had issues, so I'm not trying to insinuate that all Apple computers are like that. I was burned with bad experience once, and now I hear of the similar (same?) issues again with the new generation of a product that I'm frankly interested in buying. But I'm not reluctant to try buying it. So, that means wait through another generation. Perhaps wait for post-Sandy Bridge CPU (even though I doubt the issue is CPU related, probably a bug in graphics switching implementation).

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[mario_grgic]

All my Macs run cool as well. I have never heard fans on mine, and my Mac Pro tower stays quiet even under load. The freezing issue I experienced with the Macbook Pro was not heat related (the machine felt cool when it happened). I still think it was probably related to graphics switching implementation that Apple did.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you try adding more RAM, switching video cards? Did you try to allow them to fix it?

A Mac is just a computer. It has identical Intel hardware to the PCs you buy. My 2007 Macbook got dramatically faster when I added more memory. Before that, I would get the spinning beachball a lot while launching applications

--Sam

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[cerberusss]

But, I'm not happy with the fact that you can spend $4000 on a computer and have it not working. Now I'm scared to even attempt to buy another one. It's somewhat of a disappointing experience.

You can spend $100,000 on a car and have it not working. It's just a machine, the high price is not a guarantee that there'll be nothing ever wrong with it.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

My last Apple computer was a PowerBook G3, 10 years ago. Out of the box, it crashed more often than the Wright Bros, taking all my work with it. After 6 months of this nonsense, I put the computer on a shelf and went back to Windows 98 because it was more stable. Was my experience unusual? Probably. Do I want to gamble with their premium priced computers again? Nope.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can spend $600 on a computer and it works great. Sorry for your luck.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you even heard yourself? There you have a nice statistic of 1/8 chance of getting something and it being broken. Man, I would love if half the things I buy in life had that low statistic, especially through internet. And yet that is keeping you "afraid" of buying? Come on. I keep hearing of people buying high priced cars with defects and they just return it and get a working one. Learn to deal with it, nothing is perfect.

Re:Previous generation crashed/froze too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your experience is not unusual. As bad as Windows 95/98 were, they were light-years ahead of the Mac at the time. That's how they came to dominate the market. Of course, it didn't help that you could get a twice as fast Windows machine for half the price either.

Gold plated

[perpenso]

Last time I went and customised a laptop to have everything my macbook pro like a lit keyboard and bluetooth (yes Dell considered that an extra) it was reach the same price.

This type of argument has been bogus for *many* years, ie "but Macs have SCSI drives" of decades past. Its not the features present its the features actually needed/used. Macs have often been "gold plated" to a degree, including features only a small number of high end users needed/wanted. It is honest to say this inflates the price for more ordinary users. Last time I took a close look, a few years ago, the MacBook looked like to be a better deal than the MacBook Pro due to the "gold plating". The ordinary MacBook would have made a better comparison against Dells.

Re:Gold plated

[TheRaven64]

Its not the features present its the features actually needed/used

My 2007 MacBook Pro has two features that I've not used: the dual-link DVI (only used it as single-link) and the ExpressCard slot, and I may end up using the ExpressCard slot to add an eSATA port in the future. I'm not really sure which features you consider to be 'gold plating' for these machines.

Re:Gold plated

[perpenso]

Its not the features present its the features actually needed/used

My 2007 MacBook Pro has two features that I've not used: the dual-link DVI (only used it as single-link) and the ExpressCard slot, and I may end up using the ExpressCard slot to add an eSATA port in the future. I'm not really sure which features you consider to be 'gold plating' for these machines.

We could start with the two examples the original post offered as nice features. A lighted keyboard and bluetooth, I think it reasonable for such things to be optional. I'm sure we could make a longer list but I think the point has been made.

Re:Gold plated

[mellon]

I'm puzzled. "Argument?" "Bogus?" To whom? If you want a computer that runs MacOS, you buy a Mac. If you don't, you can buy whatever you want, Mac or non-Mac. And you buy the Mac that does what you need, if you buy a Mac. I have a 13" MBP because I do not want the extra weight. I'd have to have a *really good reason* to spend the extra money for a 15" or 17"--not just to show off. My wife just got a 15", because she needs the extra screen real estate. Her backpack weighs a *ton*.

These aren't arguments--they're explanations for why the person making the explanation made the choice they made. You aren't that person, and you might not make the same choice given the same constraints for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't mean that the person's choice was "bogus," or that their explanation is wrong.

I will admit that I get a little ticked off when my non-geek friends buy Windows machines and then expect me to help them when they melt down, but if you're willing to be responsible for the downsides of your choice, buy what *you* want. Who cares what some guy on Slashdot thinks? If I were a Windows geek I'd probably feel the same way about my friends buying Macs and expecting me to help when they melt down.

Re:Gold plated

[Anonymous Coward]

I will admit that I get a little ticked off when my non-geek friends buy Windows machines and then expect me to help them when they melt down,

The only persons I help with computers are: my wife, and my mother. Sometimes, I do help my mother-in-law but that is about it.

Re:Gold plated

[perpenso]

You have misunderstood my post. Buying a Mac is not what is bogus, neither is buying bigger more capable Macs. What is bogus is the argument that if you build out a Dell to include all features found in a Mac then you can demonstrate that Macs don't cost that much more. The flaw in that logic is building out the Dell to match. The real comparison is to a machine that matches a users needs.

Re:Gold plated

[Osgeld]

yea I get a little ticked off when my non geek friends expect me to help when their macbooks melt down and all of a sudden I am the only one within a 1 hour radius that even knows the stupid thing has a command line

Re:Gold plated

[Kagato]

The metal case closes the deal for me. There are a couple models from Dell and Leveno that are metal, but they aren't unibody and they aren't any cheaper than apple. I don't think it's gold plating because it's a real factor of long term durability.

Re:Gold plated

[Khyber]

"and I may end up using the ExpressCard slot to add an eSATA port in the future"

What? Your USB ports aren't dual-serving as eSATA? Oh you poor thing.

So much for Apple's innovation!

Re:Gold plated

[Denis Lemire]

It actually drives me crazy that PCs tend to not include Bluetooth. This means Bluetooth isn't ubiquitous, which in turn means almost nobody makes Bluetooth peripherals.

Thanks to that stupidity the market is flooded with lame keyboard/mouse devices that require needlessly wasting a USB port for a proprietary receiver. More often that not these receivers are intolerant to WiFi interference. Bluetooth and WiFi are designed to co-exist without stomping over each other RF wise.

Re:Gold plated

[sodul]

You can always get the Apple BT devices right ?

Re:Gold plated

[Denis Lemire]

Yes, I rather enjoy Apple's Bluetooth peripherals, when paired with their computers. Sleek glossy white plastic and aluminum look funny next to a boring, matte and clunky looking HP ProBook (assuming it even had Bluetooth, mine doesn't). :)

My point is, I'd like to see Bluetooth (or a successor) more widely utilized for wireless peripherals outside of Apple's realm. If such an inexpensive add-on wasn't constantly treated as an unnecessary option we'd be a step closer.

Chicken and egg, no BT peripherals without widespread BT support. Why bother bundling BT in your system when they are so few peripherals?

Re:Gold plated

[thetoadwarrior]

I think a a lit keyboard is needed if you take your laptop out of the house. It's come in real handy doing work on planes, buses, etc or even if I want to use my laptop quickly while watching a movie. Forgetting that though there is bluetooth isn't really something I'd call some sort of gold plated feature. In fact I assumed they were standard until I saw Dell wanted something like £16 to add it to the laptop.

Re:Gold plated

[Anonymous Coward]

Well they are the only ones shipping machines with Thunderbolt (née Lightpeak) which blows both USB and eSATA out of the water so there's your innovation.

Re:Gold plated

[thetoadwarrior]

That's a flawed argument because people are saying that macbooks are the same but over priced. But then if someone points out that actually they're not you can say oh well then you have to compare it to what people want.

The reason being is because you can't say that everyone that buys a macbook doesn't want those features. Maybe, like me they've researched it and realised it's not that more expensive and it looks nicer.

Things like lit keyboards are more useful than you think. A lot of laptops offer something for that. Whether it's my ancient thinkpad with a orange light that shines onto the keyboard or the macbook that lights the keys. People do want these features and people must want bluetooth or there wouldn't be a market for all those ugly USB bluetooth adapters.

My macbook comes with a camera. A lot of laptop don't but again I don't call that a special feature. There wouldn't be such a market for USB cameras if people didn't want them. I think people just try to be cheap or responsible and they buy the cheaper laptop. Then spend £20 to £50 here and there for things and end up with the same features, higher price and it's not as portable because everything is a larger device that now has to be hooked up to a USB port.

PCs (or especially laptops) are only cheap because they cut features and load shareware on it and degrade the performance. Hell that alone has probably made a lot of windows users think macbooks run better purely because they don't realise it hasn't been loaded down with rubbish software.

I agree if you don't need the features ever then yes buy something that is cheaper simply because it has fewer features but if you do want to use the features it's better paying the higher amount for all that stuff built in and leaving you with a full featured laptop and the ability to easily use those features anywhere.

Re:Gold plated

[jmorris42]

An illuminated keyboard is one way to deal with the probem. Thinkpads have the ThinkLight. It works nicely, shining down on a black keyboard and case about all you see are the keycaps.

Re:Gold plated

[Khyber]

Thunderbolt's already outdated.

Let me know when they've got direct HTX like on my motherboard.

Oh, won't happen until they go AMD.

Enjoy being having (at least) 4x less bandwidth.

Re:Gold plated

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as a Windows geek. They're called losers who don't know any better. And you're not a Mac geek... you're a fanboi because that is what you people are. And if you think I'm a typical Linux elitist nerd then you're wrong because I don't use that Unix wannabe crap. Dude you don't even know what I use because if you knew you'd already be dead. I am way cool.

Re:Gold plated

[SiMac]

A Bluetooth interface is almost free. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a part that costs less than $5 to be optional. That it is in PC laptops is, IMHO, a scam.

The material cost of the lighted keyboard is probably also pretty low, although there is undoubtedly a design cost.

Re:Gold plated

[mellon]

Laugh it up, fuzzball!

Re:Gold plated

[perpenso]

A Bluetooth interface is almost free. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a part that costs less than $5 to be optional. That it is in PC laptops is, IMHO, a scam. The material cost of the lighted keyboard is probably also pretty low, although there is undoubtedly a design cost.

What a chip costs is not a good indicator of what a computer manufacturer charges for it. If you look at RAM and HD upgrades Apple and Dell seem about the same. So if Dell is charging a certain amount for lighted keyboards and bluetooth then its a pretty safe bet Apple would charge about the same, or more accurately has built that amount into the price of the MacBook Pro. Apple charges a lot more for their laptops after all.

FWIW, the lighted keyboard and bluetooth were only mentioned because the original poster mentioned them as extra features he likes. They were not meant to be representative of features that could be options.

Re:Gold plated

[jon3k]

When you build out a dell to include a one piece aluminum body CNC machined from a single block then we can compare apples to apples. Until then it's pretty disingenuous to say it's an equal comparison between the two, wouldn't you agree?

Not to mention I'd gladly pay the premium just to be able to use Mac OSX over Windows 7. I'm a recent convert (linux/win7 at home and work with a 13" macbook air) and I cannot believe how fast the core2duo macbook air is, it's unreal.

Re:Gold plated

[stewbacca]

But the dual-link DVI makes sense to their target audience (artists using 30" cinema displays, for example). Just because you and I, random Joe's on /. have never used it, doesn't mean it would have been a good idea to leave it out, considering how much of the target industry would use it.

Re:Gold plated

[stewbacca]

My brand new mid-price generic-ish PC tower is missing things that my 1999 G4 PowerMac had standard. Wireless, Firewire, four memory slots, a power supply that has lasted 11 years (unlike the one I just replaced after three months on my PC), USB Mouse/Keyboard, for starters.

I'm pretty sure I got what I paid for in a $600 pc...an ATX motherboard with less functionality than my 11 year old Mac. That's the tradeoff when it comes to buying a PC with options, or just buying one that is nicely outfitted with little/no options.

It's like buying a car. Ford has a base car with three packages. Helps keep prices down and inventory management easier. Try getting into a Honda/Toyota and you start paying for every little option.

Re:Gold plated

[stewbacca]

Damn this is such an old argument that has been covered thoroughly for two decades. Apple is like a car manufacturer that makes premium models and doesn't offer a lot of economical cars. If you want an economy car, and you don't like the single Apple choice, go buy an e-machines/lenovo/HP/whatever. Don't, however, come on slashdot and pretend your $500 HP (Kia) is the same thing as my $1800 MBP (BMW) because all you'd have to do is upgrade the engine, chassis, suspension parts, exhaust, and transmission on the Kia to have the same specs as the BMW and you'd have done it for $5,000 less. You'd have a crappy Kia.

Some of us just want to drive the BMW home and don't want spend any time mucking around with our Kia to get it as nice as our BMW.

To further the analogy, don't come to my subdivision and complain about all the 2,500 sq. ft. houses when all you want is your single-wide trailer.

Re:Gold plated

[perpenso]

Damn this is such an old argument that has been covered thoroughly for two decades.

Yes, as I wrote earlier the build-out of a PC to match a Mac fallacy has been going on for decades. Hence the reference to Mac advocates of old who defended *everyone* getting a SCSI drive. A "necessary" that Apple eventually admitted wasn't so necessary for everyone.

Apple is like a car manufacturer that makes premium models and doesn't offer a lot of economical cars.

Oh good, car analogies. BMW offers buyers many options on a particular model car: optional convertible, optional sport package, optional convenience package, optional premium package, ... If BMW were like Apple then you would only be able to buy convertibles with sport, convenience and premium packages, all would be "standard". Come on, was the preceding any sillier than your Kia ruse? ;-)

Don't, however, come on slashdot and pretend your $500 HP (Kia) is the same thing as my $1800 MBP (BMW) because all you'd have to do is upgrade the engine, chassis, suspension parts, exhaust, and transmission on the Kia to have the same specs as the BMW and you'd have done it for $5,000 less.

You misrepresent my position. My position is that building-out a PC to match Mac specs to demonstrate a price equivalency is inherently flawed. It erroneously assumes that the Mac contains a required feature set. My argument is that for many users there are superfluous features that the build-out does not need to match. Again, my problem is not with buying a Mac (I've done so many times - I'm typing this on a MacBook), my problem is with using a Mac as the definition of what features are standard for all computer users.

To put things in the silly car analogy language my point could be expressed as the MacBook Pro is like a BMW series 5. However many people would be better served by a BMW series 3, so building-out other cars to match series 5 features is a bogus comparison. Does that help? ;-)

Personally I'm done with the bad car analogies so I'm hoping you don't answer that question. However if you would like to talk computers ...

Re:Apple is Notorious for Going "Cheap" on Hardwar

[Dunbal]

Yeah, poor me, I only get 1 hr battery life out of my quad core i7 laptop with the 17 inch screen, 1GB GeForce 360M video card that will pretty much run everything at lightning speed. That, and my laptop is now a year old. But hey, I'm never more than 1 hour away from a plug, either. And I guess if I'm just answering email or something I can turn on the power-saving mode. Oh and guess what - this machine is around half the price of a MacBook... and you had to wait a whole year to get it. Starting from $2499 at the Apple store...

Re:Apple is Notorious for Going "Cheap" on Hardwar

[Lifyre]

Honestly I think this is one of those what's old is new again kind of things. There was a number of years in the middle where the components and build quality at Apple was phenomenal. It just looks like Apple is trying to go back to being irrelevant in the PC market, it's not like they really care when they have the iPod, iPhone, and iPad cash cows to milk...

Apple - The Golden Standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does this happen with nearly every Apple product release of their computers? It doesn't seem to happen to new Dells of Acers or HP's or Gateways that come about. And don't say it's just not reported, each of them has high quality products that are used by far more users then Apple systems are. Apple needs to pay more attention to OS X and stop seeing the dollar signs.

Re:Apple - The Golden Standard?

[ilsaloving]

Two reasons. One: other PC manufactureres crank out a bajillion models a year. Apple has only a handful. So any glaring issues tend to more wide spread and visible.
Two: A windows machine crashing? What's the last time THAT was newsworthy? ;)

Lesson Learned

[retech]

Never buy a first run model of anything, even Apple. I have used their gear for a long time but once burned... actually 2x burned. Both were first run models and both had severe issues. What makes it worse is the Apple Spin Machine rarely will acknowledge these issues and first buyers are screwed. With the premium you pay they should kiss your ass for the purchase. But it's part of the cool culture and all that I guess. I'm perfectly content with waiting until a model is about through with its run before I purchase it.

Re:Lesson Learned

[cpotoso]

Actually, never buy a first run model ESPECIALLY from Apple. This has been going on for a while, they really do not have very good QC for their first runs. Well known. Happened to me last time with a white macbook (13" first run of intels), would get so freaking hot that I was afraid it would burn the wood of my desk (it even discolored it). Ended up returning it and at that time buying a vaio, which worked quite well (still working 5 years down the road), if you discount the fact that the darn thing is poorly insulated, gives you a mild electric discharge (barely noticeable, but it is there) when on AC power....

Re:Lesson Learned

[stewbacca]

Hey, let's play matching anecdotes!

First gen models I own that still work:

iPod, intel Macbook, intel iMac, airport, iPhone

That's not counting all the first gen stuff I've bought and no longer have.

"You're holding it wrong."

[John Hasler]

n/t

Mine did the same thing

[ilsaloving]

Mine crashed too, except for me it showed MAC LOAD LETTER in large font on the screen.

Re:Mine did the same thing

[leenks]

LOL I wish I had mod points and hadn't posted anything here :-)

Re:Mine did the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

We wish you hadn't posted anything here, too.

Response Form Steve Jobs:

[sxedog]

To the users of the newest MacBook - We have recognized the issue and like all laptop manufacturers this isn't just a MacBook problem; every manufacturer has this issue. We suggest using the MacBook differently, if you are having a problem under load, don't load your MacBook.

Problem solved.

Re:Response Form Steve Jobs:

[Anonymous Coward]

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

I hate apple hardware dickheads

[evanism]

No, not fanbois. Wankers. Dickheads. Poster included. I have an iMac pro. It overheated, it froze. I thought, wow, a CPU in need of heatgooze. Took it in as I didn't want to open it. One day later, yup, gooze. What makes me really puke about apple fanbois is they think henny penny's world is crashing down with every minor issue. Apple will save me. Apple will pull my stupid worthless ass out of a sling. I won this as a prize, and love the hardware (runs ubuntu) but the starry eyed doe featured flat faced awe of apple schmucks makes me want to call them naughty words. No brains all of them.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Megane]

Especially since this problem seems to have been caused by the use of 3rd-party fan control utilities.

I think that sums it up more than anything else. It's the people who just can't resist the urge to fuck with something... and then they buy a computer made for people who don't want to have to fuck with everything all the time. And then they fuck with it. And then it fucks up. Way to go fucker.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Anonymous Coward]

Your claims would be more believable if Apple actually made an iMac Pro.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not fanbois. Wankers. Dickheads. Poster included. I have an iMac pro. It overheated, it froze. I thought, wow, a CPU in need of heatgooze. Took it in as I didn't want to open it. One day later, yup, gooze. What makes me really puke about apple fanbois is they think henny penny's world is crashing down with every minor issue. Apple will save me. Apple will pull my stupid worthless ass out of a sling. I won this as a prize, and love the hardware (runs ubuntu) but the starry eyed doe featured flat faced awe of apple schmucks makes me want to call them naughty words. No brains all of them.

Wow. Umm ... What?

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an iMac pro

No, you don't.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[sammcj]

It's not caused by 3rd party software. Happens on a clean, fresh build.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is funny because it's true: Look at The Apple Product Cycle and scroll a little more than two thirds of the way down...

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[leenks]

There is no iMac pro.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Eil]

I ask this in all sincerity: What is a "gooze"? It's not a typo because you said it twice and Google sure doesn't seem to know...

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[evanism]

That was quite a late night post and I did get a little wild. Bad me. May I ask, when was the last time you didn't fuck around with your hardware? Pull apart your first xbox to hack it? Install Linux on something for the he'll of it? Dude, if you did not, then you are on the wrong goddam site!

Btw, heatgooze is just my euphemism for arctic silver or heat dispertion paste.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[evanism]

Arctic silver or thermal paste.

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[Anonymous Coward]

No brains all of them.

Haha. You must be one of alls of them

Re:I hate apple hardware dickheads

[evanism]

There is no "spoon". MacBook Pro. Well spotted Leenks :)

Obvious

[Mathlol1]

ATI graphics. I havent heard of any 13" crashes yet. Have you heard of any multiple problems with the older, nvidia macbooks? I thought not.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

As I own a 13" I can confirm on that. Ay least mine did not crash under load, nor did anyone report a crash of an 13" model in the apple support forums. In the support forum theres also the rumor that turning of the "fancy graphic" modem resolves the problem.

So this may be an issue with the dedicated graphics card itself, or the on demand switching from dedicated to integrated graphics, which is supported for the first time. Do I highly suspect the problem to be in this area.

Re:Obvious

[IgnitusBoyone]

original macbook pro's had at cards in them as well. Apple tends to swap back and forth every once in a while. I'm not sure on the rate, but I NVIDIA advertise is the answer.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

I deployed 15 of the 2010 13" MBP and of them 10 had some form of crashing grey static screen or complete freezing. Also worth mentioning is that our of 20 a co worker deployed 15 Had the same issues. Apple replaced the RAM in all 35 in the end and they have been good since. It took me 12 calls and countless hours of sending error logs and reloading OS's before Apple would acknowledge the issue. The problem is not the Company, what I paid or the manufacturing process. It's their reluctance to admit faults within their product. We had over 25 13" ibook G4's with faulty video chip solder joints fixed by wedging paper into the trackpad. Apple never did acknowldge the issue in North America but the EU got a recall on them. At leats they can advocate for their citizens rights our politician's are too busy sending the FBI to chase their prototype products left in bars...

How did the reviews miss this one?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm starting to really think that reviewers just give Apple a pass and don't test their products as hard as they should.

Obligatory Nelson Quote:

[pandrijeczko]

Ha-haa.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another distasteful example of dividing an unpleasant number by a larger number to make it seem smaller. I have no idea of what the real number of defective machines is but what counts is the total number. Thet fact that homicides are but a small percentage of deaths due to natural causes doesn't make the crime less significant.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

So just reporting a problem with Apple products is "anti-Apple"? Also if you don't like Slashdot, stop reading it instead of whining like a jackass.

Re:no apple likes thin and does not like fans / no

[UnknowingFool]

no apple likes thin and does not like fans / noise and that's why a $1200 and $1500 system have on board video.

yes and no. The Core iSeries mobile chips always comes with onboard video. Intel does not sell it without the video. Other manufacturers simply add a secondary video card and do not use the onboard video. Apple works it that they switch on or off depending on the task at hand.

Come make a little bigger system with better cooling.

By bigger I assume you mean thicker as making a 13" wider would make it a 15" which had two video cards. If you've every looked at a teardown of the 13" MacBook Pro, it's clear that the largest volume internally is taken by the battery. If you want shorter battery life, they could probably accommodate your needs; however, the majority of the customers probably want more battery as opposed to a 2nd video chip. For the 15" the board is larger can take a 2nd chip.

been there before with Linux and FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people report a "freeze" which means their cursor is still moving
but no more clicking which means IMHO that the X server lost focus.
To verify, login to the machine with ssh and find out the status of
the Xserver (probably drmwtq). If so, the solution is in your xorg.conf
or wahtever that is on a MAC. Switch off acceleration with something like
              Option "NoAccell"

Re:been there before with Linux and FreeBSD

[Megane]

First of all, what the hell is a "drmwtq"? Is that anything like WTF DRM? Second of all, if you had even a trace of clue, you would know that OS X doesn't use X Windows at all, except as an installable package of rootless X11 for those 0.01% of users who just have to run something that needs it. Third, "Mac" is not an acronym, so don't spell it in ALL CAPS.

Hope this helps, have a nice day.

Wrong hand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try holding it in your right hand.

I gotta say....

[Anonymous Coward]

I told you so...

Use a notebook cooler

[Anonymous Coward]

Any notebook that runs hot needs an active notebook cooler pad with fans for maximum performance. Cooler computers crash much less often. Duh.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac is the epitome of good marketing. It's funny to see all these Mac users trying to be different when they are all buying in to the same thing.

They are shit.

Get over it.

Crushing under load?

[EricX2]

Computers are very delicate, yes, if you put a huge load on top of your macbook pro (just like other laptops), it will be crushed.

Stop sitting on your computers people!

Re:Crushing under load?

[Culture20]

It's worse than that. They are dropping a load on their computers. Presumably from Nuclear Boy.

Re:Crushing under load?

[DarkXale]

What the hell.... JAPAN!

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's happening to a few (notice the 30 pages of comments and most of these laptops are just being delivered), it's likely to happen across the line.

I have two friends that just spent a combined $8k on two of these. Can't wait to give them shit about it.

Workaround

[bdaehlie]

I have a 2011 MBP with this problem. I do heavy compiles regularly so I hit this problem often. The problem probably isn't any third party software (I install almost nothing besides Xcode by default) - the problem seems to be with the discrete graphics card. If you are using the integrated graphics the problem won't happen. Turning off graphics switching won't stop this problem - if you turn that off the discrete card will always be used. There is no Apple-provided way to force integrated graphics all of the time. You have to use a program like "gfxCardStatus" to force integrated graphics. I haven't hit the problem since I did that.

Re:Workaround

[bdaehlie]

Obviously this won't work for people who need high-end graphics, but for people like me who don't it should be a solid temporary workaround.

Easy Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't hold it that way.

-Steve Jobs

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Americano]

Several thoughts in response to this:

1) The percentage is useful in determining whether this is, indeed, a "very widespread issue," or whether it represents a small overall failure rate due to a bad batch of thermal paste or components, damage during shipping, or perhaps somebody at the assembly line having a bad day and crossing a couple wires;

2) You will never get failures (or murder rates) to zero. It will never happen. At some point, it becomes too costly to prevent every possible failure. So, again, you look at rates of failure per units shipped, and drive that as low as you can. If you ship only 1000 units, and 500 of them fail, or you ship 1 million units, and 500 of them fail, there is a VAST difference in quality implied by those numbers.

3) Since any murder is apparently "significant" to you, would you then conclude that Detroit, MI (murder rate of 19.67 per 1,000 people) and Plano, TX (murder rate of 1.7 per 1,000 people) are equivalently "safe" cities? Obviously, the answer is "no" - this is why it helps to understand the rate of failures, so that we can compare whether or not the actual number of failures are similar to, better than, or worse than industry averages.

We got some irony up in here.

[Anonymous Coward]

It just works.

It's not exactly crashing

[Anonymous Coward]

This happened to select 2010 models as well - the problem is that the video card overheats and tries to switch back to integrated and the machine barfs all over that. (If you use a laptop cooling pad, this tends not to happen, although there are still some non-heat-related "hangs" in switching between integrated and discrete graphics). If you have ssh enabled, you can indeed see that the machine hasn't crashed, it just isn't drawing to the display (because the display is now connected to the other video card, but something - OpenCL, CoreGraphics, whatnot - didn't get the memo to write to a different display).

If you can make your machine do this reliably, you can take it to an Apple store, show it to them (being able to ssh helps), and they will replace the machine for you. You may of course get another machine with the same problem, but you also might not...so you have the option of rolling the dice on a new machine until someone comes up with a software fix. (You can also go into the Energy Saver control panel and force the discrete graphics to be used all the time, at the expense of your battery life, which tends to resolve the problem).

Dell Business Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

My Dell servers for enterprise are pretty solid. Whatever happened to Mac Enterprise? Oh right, Apple pulled Xserves off the shelves and recommended the mac mini. Not only that, Apple's secrecy and the lack of a roadmap, makes buying/ expanding decision impossible. Might as well pull a number out of my ass for a budget proposal.

Re:Dell Business Servers

[Yvan256]

Might as well pull a number out of my ass for a budget proposal.

  Isn't that what you're supposed to do?

please no....

[gssgss]

I hope mine is not one of these 2011 defective Macs! /sorry couldn't resist

i don't get all the fuss

[yanyan]

Seriously, i don't get all the fuss. I got about 8 applications open, iLife stuff, Garage Band with a work in progress containing 42 audio tracks, word processing, and a few terminals compiling GNU stuff. No cra

Re:i don't get all the fuss

[sammcj]

From the people I've spoken with online it seems that (very roughly) around 70-80% of people with the new 15'' or 17'' MacBook Pros are affected.

Re:i don't get all the fuss

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for not including the dated NO CARRIER part of the joke.

Re:i don't get all the fuss

[bennomatic]

That crash, of course, is more commentary on /.'s new bloated Javascript interface.

Re:i don't get all the fuss

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is fine too!. I have every adobe product open, my desktop is loaded ( I like to see everything, lol) , itunes going, and my brand new macbook pro is just fine like all the other macs I have owned, and in 18 years I have owned macs (about every year and half a new one) not once have I had a "crash" or an overload.

Apple's quality struggle

[zerofoo]

We've noticed quite a few quality problems lately coming from Apple. Here are some of the recents:

Verizon iPhone 4 bluetooth - essentially worthless. Frequent disconnects, difficulty pairing devices, poor call audio quality.
MacBook Air - touchpad and external mouse - many times unresponsive, or does not respond to click input.
MacBook Pro - crashing under heavy load.
Apple TV 2 - occasionally HDMI black screen condition - reportedly fixed in most recent update.

Our school buys a ton of Apple products, and we've always had our share of bugs, but recently it seems that Apple is pushing things out the door half-baked.

-ted

Re:Apple's quality struggle

[Anonymous Coward]

"Our school buys a ton of Apple products, and we've always had our share of bugs"

Lies! Apple products have never had and will never have bugs. Oh how you anger me!

Re:Apple's quality struggle

[Anonymous Coward]

crApple releases stuff before its ready? They must have really despised their custards!

SIGBUS error...

[gabereiser]

This "freeze under load" is due to a memory fault... mainly in the systems ram... Could be faulty memory or the memory isn't seated correctly... From this crashlog (http://pastebin.com/QXiTbFHN) it clearly shows an EXC_BAD_ACCESS fault with has to do with the kernel trying to read a memory address that's corrupt. Anyone who has done any kind of hacking on a hackintosh can diagnose this in a few minutes.... fix the problem with either reseating the memory or replacing the sdram chips... problem solved...

Duh.

[feepness]

My laptop broke when my toddler stepped on it too.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[sammcj]

No, you can do the research if you care. I'm not anti-apple hence why I own a Macbook Pro you insensitive clod.

how is the Linux ATI driver running on this model?

[rubycodez]

Is the Linux ATI driver better on those, maybe they just need to wipe the FreeBSD derived Mac OSX off there and put in GNU/Linux /me ducks and runs...

love it

[Anonymous Coward]

Great to the hear the mighty apple fall. Got to have some bad apples every now and again!!!

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[BeanThere]

Minor point, you mistakenly put the "violent crime" rate instead of the murder rate. 19.67 per 1000 would indeed be enormous, for a murder rate. But other than, of course you are completely correct..

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[Americano]

Bah, you're right. s/murder rate/violent crime rate/g.

Tracking the problem...

[sammcj]

A blog has been setup to help people with the problem and to track the issue: http://mbp-freeze.wikispaces.com/

Re:Tracking the problem...

[Wild_dog!]

Yeah, practical advice. I wish I could mod you up as helpful.

apple == $$dell$$

[Anonymous Coward]

basically, you say apple is like dell. but overpriced. well, you're right.

Have mercy

[Crass Spektakel]

Have mercy with apple.

They build their computers in the same factory than every other low-cost-lable, by the same poor childs working for food.

They are doing their best, really.

Re:Have mercy

[IgnitusBoyone]

Don't forget there CEO is really sick and most of the Board is worrying over a succession plan instead of running the damn business.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[sammcj]

Couldn't agree more Anon, Looking at the Apple forums now, it appears its almost everyone with a 2011 15'' or 17'' model.

Nothing new here...

[JoeMerchant]

My 2006 MacBook Pro suffers the exact same problem.

Looks like they still haven't figured out how to properly apply heat sink compound to the GPU.

Bootcamp Driver Issue There is a fix

[ShadowFoxx]

It seems that this was also a problem on the 2010 models that have been re-uped since they switched to the Raedeons from the nVids. The video drivers from the boot camp CD cause issues and lock ups ... .. i've read this from multiple sources: Check this link out to replace your current video drivers http://wilby.com/cameron_blog/?p=118

Thermal paste

[Mr Z]

You mean these generous blobs of thermal paste?

Lenovo rocks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go out and get yourself a T410s you won't be disappointed.

Not having to deal with apples obsessive compulsive / one-size fits all designs = priceless.

Re:If someone is going to state "very widespread".

[phamNewan]

Only the fanboi's go out and blow this kind of money every 2 years the moment something like this is released. That makes rubbing this in all the more pleasurable. I will be doing the same as well. I previously read that the construction on these was substandard with sloppy thermal paste application. It would seem that the issue is real and related to the assembly.

Cheaper HW sucks also

[AliasMarlowe]

the M4400 seems to enjoy having random drivers crash

You're lucky if that's all that goes wrong. We have six identical Dell M4400 laptops in our workgroup, none more than a year old. In that time, one had a motherboard failure, another had a hard disk failure (catastrophic: nothing recoverable), and a third had a display failure. A fourth one is behaving oddly, such as the occasional BSOD, but passes hardware diagnostics and detailed malware scans, so we have to live with it. Two of the six have been relatively problem-free.
A pox on Dell and the cheap trash it foists onto its victims.

I thought all Apple laptops run extremely hot?

[AbRASiON]

No seriously, I was under the impression that was the case, maybe this time they pushed it too far?

system=all components+OS

[Fastfwd]

I've had quite a few desktops and laptops in my life. After a while I decided that building my own desktop only led to problems from specific incompatibilities. Most software is going to be tested on a well sold Dell model.
I don't know about build quality of the exact specs on every component but I know this:
My Toshiba laptop's screen was dead after 1 year. Most other workers who had one also died within 2 years.
My Dell's screen was OK but the sound card was terrible; you could hear the HD spinning. Also I really hated XP vs OSX
I currently have another Dell which has OK screen and sound but all colors on the screen are very cold vs normal LCD. Works pretty well with Windows 7.
As for my own money. I have a 4 year old Mac mini who is now a DLNA server for my PS3 and iTunes server also. Works amazingly well and dead silent.
I have a macbook pro and so does my wife. They work perfectly and have great screens and soundcards.
I also use an iPhone 3GS which work well enough that I don't want a 4. My kids watch movies on netflix ipod touch.

My experience with Toshiba,Dell and Apple products tell me one thing. Buy Apple again. the margin might be thinner now that windows 7 is here because it is pretty good. I would say that a current Dell with a good LCD panel with good colors and windows 7 would probably do the job just as well.

Then there are the little things like time machine. configure it once on the wife's computer and never worry again about forgetting to click on the backup icon.

Mine's crashed twice

[aclarke]

I bought a 2.3GHz 15" on launch day. It crashed twice unexpectedly within the first week or so. I presumed it had to do with the 8GB of 3rd party RAM I installed, but a night of memtestx86 didn't turn up any problems. The computer's been mostly sitting idle since then as it's mainly just my computer for when I'm travelling, so I can't really say if it's been an ongoing problem or not.

It's a bloody fast computer though (when it isn't crashing). The quad core Sandy Bridge CPU clocks faster than my late-2008 8 core 2.8GHz Xeon Mac Pro.

Re:how is the Linux ATI driver running on this mod

[jedidiah]

The Linux ATI driver is built by ATI Corporation.

These are the same people that write the MacOS and Windows drivers.

OMG

[the_hellspawn]

Apples are not meant for computing. Apples are meant for hipsters that think a pile of garbage is art and CPUs are the whole computer.

Re:how is the Linux ATI driver running on this mod

[rubycodez]

Sure, but is only the mac one crap? that's what I'm wondering

In all fairness

[Anonymous Coward]

They crash better and faster then any laptop on the market.

Apple monitoring Facebook

[Anonymous Coward]

I linked this story to a friend on Facebook, since they work in an Apple store I thought it would be of interest to him/her.

Here is their reply, "Yo please don't post any apple stuff on my page bro I can get fired just message it"

WTF??? Paranoid or Justified either way we deleted the post and I'll message them next time but damn I can sense the worry/emergency they felt just from that text.

Too much thermal compound

[squallbsr]

When iFixit did a tear down of the 2011 MacBook Pro, they found way too much thermal compound applied. I would be willing to bet that this is the primary cause of the crashes. See step 10 from their teardown guide: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody-Early-2011-Teardown/4990/2

Possible workaround after crash

[technicalnotebook]

Hi All, I may have figured out a way to *recover* from the crash after being very frustrated finding the GPU crashing every morning. http://slashdot.org/submission/1505352/Possible-workaround-for-Macbook-2011-Issues Curious if this works for others Stuart

New OSX 10.6.7 update

[ShadowFoxx]

The new update I think addresses this issue. One of the notes are: Addresses an issue with MacBook Air (Mid 2010) computers that could cause a kernel panic. The update released today. You should get it and see if it resolves your problems.

Re:New OSX 10.6.7 update

[fastasleep]

Yes, it fixed mine. I bought a new MBP 15" (2.3 quad i7) on Sunday, saw this thread that evening, and was able to easily dupe the issue over and over. Today the 10.6.7 update came out and I have not been able to duplicate the freeze. It's fixed, works great, problem solved.

10.6.7 == FIXED FIXED FIXED. (for those skimming :)