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Mozilla Labs: the URL Bar Has To Go
An anonymous reader writes with an editorial from ConceivableTech "Since Google's move to enable users to hide the URL bar, we have seen what could be the beginning of the end of one of the key features of the web browser. Mozilla has its own thoughts, but there is little doubt that Mozilla is reconsidering the purpose of the URL bar in future versions of its browsers. In a Mozilla Labs post today, David Regev suggests that the location bar should be replaced with a tool to support more than just one command."
Gah, what is with Mozilla following Google's every example, no matter how stupid or not? There's a good reason to keep the URL bar - it's a quick and easy way to check for phishing 2 out of 3 times. Hiding the URL bar is just dumb, because now we're reliant on Google or Mozilla or other third-party maintained lists to protect us from phishing, or we have to jump through hoops to check the URL. No, thank you!
Plus, what is wrong with keeping the URL bar where it is? I use the Omnibar addon and it adds the ability to do all sorts of query commands into the URL bar already. It works well and it's convenient to use, and best of all, I keep my URL bar (albeit it's now a long address bar that incorporates the search bar into it). Why not go that direction? Why follow Google towards stupid design decisions? Just making it look nifty is not a good reason to change something or to remove functionality and features.
My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
You know who else didn't have a URL bar?
AOL.
Nothing gets under my skin more than devs who like to follow the latest trends without considering whether what they are doing actually delivers concrete value to the end user or at least makes the codebase more maintainable in a real measurable way. Newer is not always better.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Every time Mozilla releases a new version of Firefox, they make it uglier and more annoying. Please STOP IT! The so-called "Awesome Bar" is NOT awesome. Every time upgrade, I have to hunt around for options and add-ons, to put Firefox back to the way I like it.
You can pry the URL bar from my cold dead hands
... the command line! Brilliant...
I like URL bars. They're quick and easy to type into, they let me see exactly where I'm browsing at (in theory), and when it comes time to copy and paste a link it's simple. The added 33 pixels means nothing to me.
Alternatively, we could consider removing the URL bar if it was replaced with a button that gave David Regev electroshock therapy every time it was clicked. Oh, and that Google guy too who's removing it.
----- obSig
....why I don't want a URL bar? How the hell am I supposed to type in the places I want to go. What are they thinking? I don't get it. I also tend not to change my habits. Is typing in URLs passe now? Am I supposed to rely on my browser to take me where I want to go? What's the deal?
Not trolling here. I'm serious, I don't get this 'feature' at all. I open a blank page and search on google and hope my search term works the next time?
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Ok, I understand tabs on top after using them. I understand the awesome bar's usefulness after having used it for a while. But no URL bar? Whatever happened to full-screen mode if you really need that much vertical real estate? I don't want to lose my URL bar, nor do I want to help support users who aren't knowledgeable who get a browser update containing this (if Mozilla and Google are both going in this direction, I expect IE10 to also be URL bar-less). Is this going to finally validate all those people who think that a search engine text entry field equals a URL bar? Those who type in "google.com" to a Bing or Yahoo search page?
I'd much rather have the rendering and processing backends optimized to hell and back, and it least it seems they've been doing that - thanks to hardware acceleration and a better JS engine, Firefox 4 runs much faster for me than 3.x did. Keep that up and quit fucking with our UI!
FC Closer
When you lack inspiration, fix something that isn't broken!
love is just extroverted narcissism
So how about a fork of Firefox for sane people? Just some defaults tweaked.
Some suggestions
- Ask me where I want to save things instead of just dumping things in a folder
- URL bar with konqueror style commands like 'ggm:' for google maps, 'gg' for google, 'imdb' for imdb...
- One click pass through when an SSL certificate doesn't match (yes, tell me, but probably I knew this already)
- One click toggle of plugins
- history off by default (who uses that?)
Anything else?
Are they even around any more?
After Chrome came out I thought they just vanished from the planet.
like search?
Really don't get what's the problem with the URL bar. I don't buy that reasoning that it's "confusing" for people to see an URL or that it eats up too much space. If they must follow through with this ridiculous idea hopefully they'll put in an option to keep it (nothing wrong with allowing customization) - or an addon for it will be made.
Crap, another move to ensure that new users will never understand how their computers work.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Let's get rid of all typing! Just click on pretty pictures for everything! No one actually needs a keyboard.
Don't do it Mozilla. Don't lose your identity. Don't f*ck with users just to copy another browser. Another browser that is popular because of internal stuff rather than interface.
Why not copying the GOOD aspects of Chrome? You know, the stuff Chrome fans like to point out, like speed and such.
"Secondly, it’s hard to read, since people don’t really understand URLs"
Do we always have to cater to the lowest common denominator. At this rate we will have nothing but a browser sidebar with predefined url buttons to the most popular social sites.
"Thbbft!" - Bill the Cat
While the Downloads are looking at them from that Ugly Default External Window.
Fix that instead, Mozilla.
This is what I call "pulling a Microsoft", or dumbing down your interface to the point where a professional can't use it. Please don't. You will just end up producing ignorant users.
Why do anything with it? You can already remove the URL bar from Firefox if you want to. That's what the "Customize Toolbars" menu option is all about. If they do muck around with it, then I don't have an objection as long as there's an option to bring it back, as there are with the menu and status (er, 'scuse me, add-on) bars.
An anonymous Firefox dev has suggested adding a futuristic "TaskBar" to replace to old fashioned URL Bar. "Imagine, it could house a menu, tabs, perhaps widgets like a clock or volume control... ". This new bar might be moved to the bottom of the screen to maximize usability. "We ran extensive user tests - selecting our users randomly from a large pool of Gnome 3 enthusiasts and Unity developers alike".
When reached for comment, reps from competing browsers had this to say:
IE: "Hawt."
Safari: "Who needs any sort of bar? You should be able to control your browser simply by caressing the screen with predefined strokes."
Chrome: "Oh yeah? In our next version the TaskBar and Menu will each run in their own process! Eat THAT Mozilla."
just presets.
that point to their stations.
Who the hell wants the URL bar removed (other than spammers/phishers/scammers)?? Seriously, isn't that the best practice to prevent phishing attacks is to manually type the URL of the website you are trying to connect to?? What are they thinking? Not too mention being able to verify the site you are on, easily copy/paste links, etc.
What should be done is to increase the functionality of the URL bar. The one thing that always pisses me off and should be fixed is not allowing a web page to steal the focus from the URL bar. I don't know how many times I've started typing in a URL only to have the Yahoo or Google bar steal the focus 3-5 characters in. Improve it, don't remove it.
How do you connect to sites on an Intranet without a location bar. I don't want a google search of my intranet, for my dev products.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
This reminds me of the dubious decision to hide file name extensions in Windows Explorer by default - you know, since users don't really need that information.
Either that, or great minds think a like. Seriously though. This isn't that revolutionary. Mobile browsers hide the URL bar to try and save real estate on tiny tiny phone screens. www.awkwardengineer.com
The real purpose for Google putting everything into one entry box is that everything you type gets turned into a search, and therefore gets sent to Google. It adds a very significant amount of data to their user search information database - essentially monetizing everything you type up there (Microsoft does this with IE as well). My guess is that Mozilla is getting something under the table for this as well. Fork time?
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
User plug-ins...buttons where users wanted them....themes..
And I just finished the long and arduous process of teaching a dozen of my relatives older than 40 what a phishing attack is and how to spot it.
Thanks for making my life miserable again, Mozilla.
This from the article:
“The location bar has to go. It has many problems. For one, it’s always visible and constantly takes up a large amount of space. Secondly, it’s hard to read, since people don’t really understand URLs. Moreover, it’s modal: it has a mode for displaying the current page’s location and a mode for entering your next destination. It’s not always immediately obvious which mode you’re in and what the current text is indicating, and switching modes is not easy either."
That is the stupidest thing I've read in a while. Really? The URL bar takes up too much space? It is slightly larger than one line of text. If they aer so concerned about saving space, maybe they should get rid of the title bar and the little mozilla icon in the corner - that is a hell of a lot less useful than the URL bar. Sure, hiding the bar might be a great idea on a smart phone or something with severely limited screen real estate, but to apply this across the board as the default is just stupid.
The URL is hard to read? Seriously? It tells you the address of the page you are looking at. That's pretty damn simple. Yes, it is a long string of characters, which I'm sure offends graphic designers everywhere (which seem to be the people driving the current rash of browser UI changes - screw usability, it has to look "nice"), but it really is a simple way to tell you what you are looking at.
It isn't always obvious if you are entering the next destination or looking at your current location? Really? There are people that click in the bar, start typing a new address, and then forget what they are doing and think that the address they just (partially) typed is what they are looking at right now? That argument simply doesn't make any sense.
Mozilla seems to have a serious case of me-too-itis lately. Chrome's version is increasing too fast? Fine, we'll start pumping out new version numbers to compete - yeah, 4.0 just came out, that's okay; this next version we'll just call 5.0 instead of the 4.0.4 that it really is. We'll catch up in no time! Chrome offers the option to hide the URL bar? Hah! Those losers! We're going to get rid of it entirely because we're awesome like that! Here's some made-up BS to justify it even though approximately zero users want this!
Secondly, itâ(TM)s hard to read, since people donâ(TM)t really understand URLs.
Really? On what planet?
I submit to you this: If someone doesn't understand a URL after all this time, then they don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the basic workings of the Internet.
My concern is this: that this path leads to a "Playskool" internet browser, that may be fine and dandy for 6-year-olds and great-grandma, but that will frustrate the rest of us. If you must insist on taking this path, then at least give us the option to turn the URL bar back on if we want it.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Most everyone who uses vimperator has their browser configured to not use an URL bar. I personally don't miss it at all.
http://www.donarmstrong.com
Computers have been around for decades; many interface designs were tried, and we have a pretty good clue about what works and what does not. But lately it seems that everyone has decided to ignore this knowledge and just try to make things flashy. Those morons may think they'll attract a new userbase this way, but actually will just alienate the one they already have.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Once upon a time, in the days of yore, we had something fairly similar to what it sounds like they are proposing: The Command Line. A recent slashdot.org post even demonstrated the concept for younger folks who cannot remember back that far back. While there is new rhetoric about commands being issuable in putative 'natural language', this is something that has been heard before, with diminishing plausibility. So, why does Mozilla insist on going backwards? I like the URL bar. If they do away with it, I'll just have to find an add-on to bring it back. So, I think that this is silly.
It's the same people who decided to remove the status bar, isn't it?
...he hits F11.
I mean, who doesn't want to replace the readily-editable standard text box that's the URL bar with an interface where you have to, "hover over the current location or a link in a web page and hold Alt."? That's TOTALLY something that I would think to do, not to mention how completely easy it is to perform on a touch-input device or with the keyboard alone...
I think the URL bar ideas stem from the reduction of vertical screen real estate, primarily as a result of the Widescreen adoption. Rather than using the same vertical resolution, screens have smushed down on average, making vertical real estate extremely valuable. This problem is also exacerbated by the ubiquity of tabs. Unfortunately, there's no good way to make text vertical, so I think that's where this idea comes from.
Maybe they could just make it like the default menu bar settings in a lot of new browsers, where they don't appear until you press alt? That way you aren't getting rid of it but allow more real estate for those that need it. Of course, this is already an option so maybe they are trying to be more extreme in their attempts to get rid of it. A rollover on the left side of the screen that pops out with a bar for both search and URL could be a possibility.
Replace the URL bar with a tool to support more than just one command? Isn't that what keyword searches are for? I find the firefox URL bar to be extremely useful when combined with keyword searches. Here's how:
Go to any search field for instance the google search box, right click and choose "Add a Keyword for this Search...".
Give the search a single character "keyword" (eg g for google).
Now when you want to do a search you can do the following sequence:
Ctl-L # access the URL bar
Keyword [SEARCH TERMS] # eg "g slashdot" will perform a google search for slashdot
These are some of the keyword searches I use most often:
p for pubmed
g for google
gs for google scholar
gm for google maps
w for wikipedia
d for duckduckgo
ed for english dictionary
sd for spanish dictionary
The URL bar is by far the most useful feature of Firefox!
After 10 years or so of evangelical promotion of web browsers in some quarters - Firefox advocates can be almost as mental as Apple fans - it seems that we have ground to a halt in terms of advances but no-one is willing to admit it.
The Firefox and Chrome lot have put so much effort and capital into their brands that they can't stop farting new versions out any more. They have plateaued like MS Office did in 2000.
I put my books on Amazon, Smashwords, Demonoid, ISOHunt and Pirate Bay. Search for 'Michael Cargill'
I haven't seen so much unjustified criticism from so many people who so poorly understand the topic since... well, this being /., I guess it was yesterday.
But anyway, please read the article. It does not say what you think it says, if you only read the summary.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Hitler didn't have a URL bar.
Come on MozDevs, do you really want to be like Hitler?!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
They remove the browser bar so that if I want to enter the sites address I can hit the home button and be taken to an address field page of their own design that is filled with advertising.
IF you must why not just replace it with a small button or a mouse over action that shows/hides the address bar? How hard is that?
But hey thanks for making the next generation of internet users dependent on you.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I sort of like how my android browser works where the URL bar scrolls off the top with the page.
Here's my feedback in simple and vulgar words so that you can unequivocally understand.
You fucking Idiots.
Sincerely, an ex-user of your browser.
what a terrible idea.
Why would I want to be ignorant of what URL I am loading/viewing?
I would stop using firefox if the address bar were removed.
I want the electroshock thing implmented against the tard who decided that 'Chrome' (why did Google up front adopt the 'oooohh shiney thing' meme upfront for their browser??) shouldn't have a Menu bar, and that one shouldn't be available for it. Because, goddamnit, if I want to use keyboard shortcuts I should be able to use keyboard shortcuts.
Seamonkey is the obvious choice.
This really isn't that new of a feature. I've been able to do this in safari for at least a year now (command+shift+|)-that last character is a pipe, not a lowercase L. I don't understand "power users" complaining about this change either. Exactly how many of you regularly click into the url bar instead of using command+L(or ctl+L)? I imagine that functionality will still work, its just that the url bar wont show up unless you actually need to type something in it. It's nice being able to have more space dedicated to the content of the page, even if it is only 50 pixels. No usability is lost from this change.
If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
Does anyone like this?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
They should replace the URL bar with a Ribbon. Then they could add the URL bar back in under some obscure tab, preferably only accessible via a dropdown menu on the side of some other unrelated button. Having done all of this, they should then make the URL bar no longer accept the Enter key and instead make the user click the Go! button which will be located underneath some other unrelated tab. Congratulations, you've just designed Office 2007.
of the 'Two Click Rule' for UI design?
Why would anyone desire to go through more steps to do the same thing?
Also, doesn't this also reduce the ability of the user to be responsible for their own safe use of the browser, considering that the URI is now obfuscated from the user?
I really hope that this is just some Ubiquity evangelist who has no real say on the future of Firefox.
There's already an addon (from mozilla labs) which does that. It doesn't need to be extended more than that.
I use it, because I prefer the extra screen space. Other people might not like it. But I actually find it very useful.
Firefox should stick to what it does best. Addons. Its then a simple case - "You don't like the address bar? Get this addon"
By the way in case anyone's interested - the addon is called "Less Chrome HD"
Following Google, which follows Microsoft (It is the Bing-ization of their search to which I refer) to stupidity.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If people can't see that they have been re-directed from the site they intended to go to because of a hack or virus, than they will NOT know to NOT log into the site or give it their info!
I WANT the bar there. I glance at it all the time to make sure I am where I think I am on the internet.
I do not want any "other" solutions. I do not want and idiot light telling me the site is safe. I want to verify it for MYSELF.
If it becomes an OPTION to hide the address bar, that is one thing. But do not just take it away!
Firefox 4 was a huge step backwards from a UI perspective (no more status bar, stupid scrolling tabs with no trivial way to shrink widths, etc.). This would be just another step in the (wrong) direction that they're going.
So seamonkey it is then...
Most websites identify themselves. I really don't see the point in making the address bar a major part of the browser. It could be something that comes into view when you hover over a button or something.
Of course, it's good to show the user what URL they are connecting to, to prevent phishing attacks and such. But just the URL up until the first ?. Don't bother displaying the protocol part. Aunt Ethel could give a damn what HTTP stands for, just show a lock if it's secure. And the root domain name should be highlighted or otherwise specially visualized so that it's clear what domain the user is connected to. The URL up until the first / should be displayed in bigger text or with more emphasis than the rest of the address.
I think it'd be cool if a URL display worked like that of a TV channel display; i.e. show the current URL for a few seconds and then get out of the way.
"appliance" user whose purchases keep your hardware cheap. I don't see why it needs to be displayed as part of the URL, unless you hover over it or edit the address.
that something ridiculous, like probably over 75% of users don't even know what an URL bar is and I wish I was kidding. A huge amount of users don't understand the concept of URLs, domains or anything of the sort and type anything and everything (both actual search queries as well as full-blown http://whatever/ URLs) into the search engine toolbar in the top-right corner of Firefox and/or IE.
I made a userstyle doing exactly this months ago (a few people even prefer how I've done it). http://userstyles.org/styles/45652/firefox-4-autohide-navigation-bar-alternative
I'll give you my URL Bar when you take it from my cold, dead hands!
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
When you fullscreen the url bar hides by default. I turn that off of course. By default you should have a url bar. But it makes sense to hide it for webapps. It should appear any time the site is not on your trust list. I hide the bookmark bar and I run Compact Menu 2 on all but my largest screens to get rid of the menu bar as well, so the URL bar is all I have left. That makes more sense to me but that's based on how I use the web. Unfortunately, I think that's probably true of more users than even realize it themselves, and that they will probably go ahead and make this change anyway. I for one am already annoyed with the direction the interface is going. Bookmark all tabs should still be under the bookmark menu, for example; taking that out benefited no one. I enjoy that you can access the functionality by right-clicking any tab, but I also want it to be in the menu, because that's what the menu is for.
If the URL bar would go away when I am using sites for which it offers me nothing, that would be OK with me... on some machines. Honestly, I surf on more machines with 768 lines or less, so it would even be less work for me if it were the default. I again do feel that it makes no sense for it to go away on an untrusted site, however. As others have pointed out, seeing the domain is useful for maintaining security, and if it helps a noticeable percentage of users not get owned then that's argument enough for spending the screen real estate to me.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Each one of them run by people who want to leave their mark on the user base. Just like architects and town planners. They want to create something which everyone will remember and talk about forever. They couldn't care less what you want.
Many of the open source guys have become the new Microsoft, forcing their goonish ideas onto a captive crowd whether they like it or not.
They need to stand back, take a deep breath and really think about what they're doing and why they're doing it, because it sure looks like self indulgent, egotistical twaddle.
So now mozilla's firefox joins my list of "browers that can go fuck themselves"
So that's safari, IE, chrome, opera, and now firefox.
...dammit, what's left?
Apparently this is all based on a post by David Regev on a Mozilla Lab blog. It is not an official statement from Mozilla, but they don't seem to be disagreeing with it either. After reading it I can only say that he is insane. Here are some of my favorite parts:
"The location bar has to go. It has many problems. For one, it’s always visible and constantly takes up a large amount of space."
A lot of space? What? It's a few pixels. Are you using a 15 inch monitor from 1987?
it’s hard to read, since people don’t really understand URLs.
WTF?
"it’s modal: it has a mode for displaying the current page’s location and a mode for entering your next destination. It’s not always immediately obvious which mode you’re in and what the current text is indicating"
WTF? If you put your cursor in the URL bar and start typing something it's pretty easy to figure out what "mode" you are in.
Regev suggests to replace the URL bar with a browse command
LOL. The latest GUI innovation -- a command line!!
Yea, but you're not an idiot who googles "youtube.com" to click on the first search result. That drives income to Google and Mozilla (when done through Firefox). Of course they're going to monetize their position by forcing you to do it that way.
I read the blog post and I am now dumber for it.
Since when does using a browser require one to go to college?
The person who decided to hide extensions by default is single-handedly responsible for a great deal of the trojans that get executed.
And I agree, the idea of getting rid of the address bar is just terrible. It's EXTREMELY important for you to know where you are at all times in this world of multiple redirects! This will do for phishers what hiding extensions did for trojans.
:(){
Why don't you spend time OPTIMIZING your browser rather than including dumb little features.
As other's have pointed out removing the URL bar is a stupid, stupid concept because of the fact that it makes the gui more confusing, less user friendly, and the user more vulnerable to phishing. However, if Mozilla must absolutely screw up their interface, I would want the new URL bar to be integrated into each tab. The URL bar is dependent on the tab you are on, so why not make a small icon on each tab that you click to drop down the bar so the user can update the url.
I like URL bars. They're quick and easy to type into, they let me see exactly where I'm browsing at (in theory), and when it comes time to copy and paste a link it's simple.
I do, too, and that's why my fingers automatically press ^L or cmd-L whenever I want to interact with it. I can't really think of a reason why I need it there all the time, though. Like right now. I'm on Slashdot. I don't care what the exact URL is (and can see it with a single set of keypresses or presumably a mouse click if Mozilla has their way) and that line is a waste of screen space. I don't think they're advocating getting rid of it completely, but I'd be perfectly happy for them to hide it for the 99.9% of the time when I'm not directly working with it.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
oh noes, if firefox do all these minor changes that a small subset of it's users don't like someone might have to get off their arse and FORK it! how will we cope!
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
Oh, you mean like KDE has been doing since at least the 3 series?
I really liked the idea in that 3rd link of displaying the history inline, i.e. above your current page, so you can just scroll up to go back. or scroll back down again to go forward.
although having said that I dont like scrolling because you have to use a mouse to do it in a precise way.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Why is every software project changing its interface drastically for tablets and phones? Did desktops just fall off the face of the Earth? Seriously, get off the mobile bandwagon if your doing Desktop software and stick with Desktop design ideas. That goes for Mozilla, Gnome, and anyone else. Stop making half and half crappy designs changes and and focus up on one or the other but no half way crap that ruins the experience.
I don't care if the UI for Gnome 3 is better for tablets and such. I don't care that you think the URL bar is too big at 33 pixels or whatever it is. Stop messing up things that work as they are. Start a new project and give the existing stuff to someone else who won't have mobile on the brain for a desktop product.
Sorry for the rant but this is getting old watching good and decent desktop software become hybrid mobile nightmare designs.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Did you see the part about scrolling for history - versus back and forward - seriously no. When has scrolling in a document taken you to another document? In a doc, pdf, spreadsheet, etc - why in browser document? what is the metaphor here? Maybe a page turn metaphor would work but scrolling? no.
If you type in a URL, you just go there.
If there is no URL bar, you search on google and click on the first link that comes up. Lots of people do this. But not everyone.
First way == no tracking. Second way == stats for Google that could be sold to someone...and it went from old people who don't understand URLs, to *everyone* because there is no longer a URL bar.
It doesn't benefit anyone but Google and other search engines. Of course Google wants you to have to search for where you want to go.
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
Since Google would rather you *search* for something rather than go directly to a known page. Maybe Mozilla will get kickbacks from search and advertising dollars if they go along...
The url bar is an excellent tool and takes up very little space.
As time has gone on some developers seem to feel that a "clean" (empty) design both looks better and is easier to use. Not necessarily correct, folks.
Having to click on an area of a title bar and choose a menu option to be able to navigate to a site is NOT easier, better or a more elegant design than simply having a url bar.
I can understand (sort of) why Chrome is doing it- not as a better design but to get more advertising done as people resort to Google's Search to navigate to sites.
I can not understand why Mozilla is also choosing to send users to one search site or another to navigate to web sites... unless Google or another search company is paying them a bunch of cash.
Of course I am sure there will be at least one browser who chooses ease of use and security over "clean", bad design....
Linux computers, watercooled, photography
URL bar users: Mozilla Labs Has To Go
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
FTFA:
Clicking on a the URL bar and typing is not easy? What the hell? It's a text box, if you don't know how to work one of those, you probably shouldn't have the computer. At least we won't have to hear from those people, because they'll never be able to post anything or send any email.
And how would adding an initial step of "Find the hidden URL bar" make it easier? You still have to click on it and start typing. If you change your mind, you'll probably still have to hit "Esc" to get the original address back.
It's not obvious which mode you're in? Did you click on it and start typing? If not, it's the current page's location.
It's one thing to make it usable for everyone, but when you're basing design decisions by assuming your customers are the most feeble-minded of morons, you're not helping anyone.
This sentence no verb.
The reason I use Firefox is that unlike Chrome it doesn't hide useful information to save a few pixels. Now I already need one extension to keep it the way it was before (statusbar was removed in FF4), and it looks like I will soon need more...
Everybody's supposed to be using a touch-screen tablet or smartphone these days. Didn't you get the tweet? Why else do you think Gnome 3 and Unity were invented? Next up, Windows 8 with an enlarged version of the Win Phone 7 tile interface to replace that old computer-desktop GUI.
Bandwagon, anyone?
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
Auto companies will now sell cars with opaque wind shields as all driving will be done by viewing the GPS navigation device.
Boring. Been surfing with camino and safari for years without the url bar. Waste of space and ugly
... Innovation actually meant inventing something, not copying anything that sounds edgy. Browsers have always imitated each other. Literally even, when you consider the whole user agent thing. Now, this expands to graphical interfaces everywhere. The result is that all user interfaces converge on Apple's style, which when you actually examine it more closely is less efficient, less powerful and actually inferior in most respects except for idiot-friendliness and shininess.
I have an awesome idea: What if we eliminate the content pane from all browsers? We could save over 90% of screen space.
Are you serious?? Has to go??? Who is in control of these terrible design ideas? Obviously this person isn't listening to the actual user base! Don't do it!
Why not make it customizable?
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
The location bar has to go. It has many problems.
Does Mozilla really think that their average user base has gotten dumb enough to not understand the URL bar? I find their logic a bit insulting.
For one, it’s always visible and constantly takes up a large amount of space.
How about enabling a toggle button to hide/show it at will?
Secondly, it’s hard to read, since people don’t really understand URLs.
Wha...? Sure, there can be a lot of complexity to understand every nuance of URL structure. But you can understand 90% of the structure with a few simple concepts.
Moreover, it’s modal: it has a mode for displaying the current page’s location and a mode for entering your next destination. It’s not always immediately obvious which mode you’re in and what the current text is indicating, and switching modes is not easy either.
Again, a toggle switch would be good.
In the future, you wont be permitted to have intranets or local file storage, everything is going to be in the cloud. Like it's really cool, groovy and web 3.0 and stuff man (hehehe lol, isn't slashdot d2 great? etc...). Besides, how else are google and the CIA to effectively mine and exploit your private data?
I ove firefox for extensions abd being able to cusomize it to mi liking. Currently i have 4 items on my onlu toolbar fx button shorter with only letter "f",brief button(without he button only number of unread items), location bar (awesome bar) and tabs.
I love awesome bar.. i can search from it i can go to my bookmarked items pages i've already visited. Granted i rarely entrer urls but.... seeing current url is good.
So if they axe the awesomebar i will bring it back... i was tempted to use old urlbar when awesomebar was introduced but i gave it a chance and its acoording to its name awesome. i dont use bookmarks via toolbars or menus... i just type in awesome bar... i've even bookmarked chrome://mozapps/content/downloads/downloads.xul as it is faster for me to start typing do then arrow down and enter then go to firefox menu and press the downloads button... i've bookmarked brief also. I'm very focused onmy screen real estate as i use a netbookk with 1024x600px resolution and i have 1023x584 available to me minus 8px scrollbar (but m considering removing it entirely) and i really need awesomebar... only i wish that suggestions that popup under the awesomebar were wider than awesomebar itself as it is only 350px wide and whehn i have few items bookmarked on the same site and I don't change the titles it's hard to differentiate between them.
Well I've already said too much but: awesomebar stays.
ps. ;]
wow I've wasted a lot of time making backround for the summary
Hence my #1 general complaint with free open source software: developers tend to fix what they want to fix, not what must be fixed. Stuff which is hard to do, uninteresting, and little-observed (whether during development or in the bug report bin) tends to be passed over by those who have no incentive to do it other than in return for cold hard nasty cash.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
I interviewed at Mozilla about a year ago. I had a Sr. Developer telling me that I'd lied on my resume because JMeter only tests Java applications, not web sites. I was surprised. Half way through the interview I decided it wasn't for me. They have a lot of money and no bottom line. Its a weird place.
They seem to have lost track of what made them popular. That is small, fast browser that supports the standards. All the kitchen sink stuff they have been throwing in just concerted their product from a lean, enjoyable experience to the slowest browser in my compatibility lab. Does anyone use that browser any more? I don't.
The URL bar pretty much shows some ugly code to the users.
I know the more advanced computer users here at Slashdot don't mind, and perhaps prefer, to see the current URL address.
However, from a user experience oriented perspective, the URL bar should be done away with for beginners/intermediate users.
The URL bar is not elegant in its current form imo, and perhaps a stumbling block for NEW users.
I'd like to see a successful alternative to the URL bar, however I am unsure of what an alternative would look like.
Any ideas? I know more experienced users may prefer the URL bar. But surely there are some elegant alternatives.
Many URL's (like google's search result and gmail URLs) are too long to be displayed all at once on the URL bars and are full of nonsensical strings of characters.
You can have my URL bar when you pry it from my cold, dead hand.
When Microsoft removed the simple File menu across the top of Office application (2007 and later) replacing it with a clumsy "Ribbon", "Office Button", and other non-intuitive pull-downs and popups, and changed the application window graphic to not conform to the current theme, the application stopped being a tool and started being a "new whiz-bang hip interface" that I'm supposed to be in awe of, and say"gosh, how 'innovative'". At that point I really started hating M$ (well, much before that, actually). Now every time I run Office I hate M$ more and more. M$ is ONLY app to not have a normal menu.
Why did this happen? Because users asked for it? No. Because Ballmer and other dipshlts at M$ need their own legacy to feel they played a part in techno-history. F-them.
Ok, so on to this issue. A web browser is used to view web pages. A web page is, at it's most basic identifier, a URL. So Mozilla thinks it's a good idea to remove (or hide by default) the URL address bar?
Wow, that's DUMB.
Maybe that is what meinstream users want, but there seems to be an obsession with totally irrelevant little appearance tweaks, eye-candy, catching up with cool-looking competition and other aspects of looking cute.
How about fixing some of the bugs that are still open after years, some after decades? How about finally streamlining the rendering engine? How about working on the documentation? How about improving security of addons? How about finally getting isolated multiprocessing tabs to work?
I do not give a fuck if the URL bar is there or not but I do care about the fact that more and more often I have to fire up Chrome when I want a page to render correctly, be responsive or play nice with plugins.
This is a bit tin foil hattish, but I suspect Google and Mozilla, for their own business reasons, would prefer that users don't understand what their browsers are doing. They're also trying to eliminate the status bar. I hope there's a fork or something.
From the article: The location bar has to go. It has many problems. For one, it’s always visible and constantly takes up a large amount of space. Secondly, it’s hard to read, since people don’t really understand URLs. Moreover, it’s modal: it has a mode for displaying the current page’s location and a mode for entering your next destination. It’s not always immediately obvious which mode you’re in and what the current text is indicating, and switching modes is not easy either.
The location bar being visible is a GOOD thing. I use it to verify that the page I am viewing is the correct one (such as online banking....I wouldn't enter any of my information into the web form unless I can see that the URL is that of my bank)
It is not hard to read. http://www.slashdot.org Yes, wow, that is so hard to read.
His modal argument. It is not immediately obvious which mode you are in? Really? Did you click in the location bar and start typing? Oh look you are in the mode of entering your next destination. Did you NOT click in the location bar and start typing? Oh look the text is indicating the URL of the page that was loaded. Switching modes is not easy? Clicking in the location bar and typing is not easy? How much farking easier should it be?
Someone should take this guy's computer away from him.
They could call it "the command line".
I'd remove the search bar before removing the URL bar. Notice who's behind removing the URL bar.
...which toolbar should I remove? Ah...URL bar!
I'd like to point out this is yet another thing that Opera is already doing, by allowing customized search commands and shortcuts from the url bar. Sometimes it's so tedious being ahead of the curve.
...then, on my system, Mozilla has to go too.
An intriguing solution to a problem that should never have existed in the first place...
Perhaps we'll finally see the glory days of Opera. They have innovated so much over the years that other browsers copied, yet Opera never got the mainstream marketshare.
I admit that I was turned off to Opera early on due to the advertisements in their free version, but that is an era long gone and it is a solid and free browser now.
Microsoft is doing a good job catching up with IE9 and with each iteration their browser gets better and better. I suppose it just took a long time to get back in the groove after stagnating on IE6 for all those years.
I agree with other posters who ask why they should bother with Firefox if all it is going to be is a Chrome copycat. I used to love Firefox, but I do not like some of the decisions they have been making lately. Some of those decisions can be undone with addons, but still..
No matter how you look at it, as long as not all the browsers shed the URL bar then there will always be a browser for me. I want the URL bar. I want to quickly and easily know where I am at. I do not need to type in a URL in the Google search box to find every site.
If I already have a problem with people not knowing where they really are on the internet, and they get horrid stuff all over their computers, and I can't get them to change mbam.exe to mbam.com to run sneakily run Malwarebytes Anti-Malware because they're either completely unfamiliar with file extensions or just plain can't see them to change them, how could I possibly be in favor of the foreseeable URL-free future where they don't even know where they're browsing/downloading stuff from?
So they want to do away with an easy way to type in a url that at the same time displays the current page's location so you can copy it to send to others, while at the same time adding a LARGER gaudy description of where you are inline to the page so you have to scroll down to see as much as you would have before?
There are no new web users who are not children who can pick up the url bar just fine.
the older ones who haven't already learned can suffer -- that group will go away with time.
"Alternatively, we could consider removing the URL bar if it was replaced with a button that gave David Regev electroshock therapy every time it was clicked. Oh, and that Google guy too who's removing it."
Don't forget the slashdot editors as it might get rid of some of the badly selected, summarized, and duped stories. Oh and triple zap on the badly researched stories and slashads.
It's all about advertising and dollars.
When the URL bar is removed, it's way easier for 99% of the population to set your homepage to a search engine, and just enter the URL in the search box and click 'search'.
Now, I wonder who will get the click data for that? What is Chrome's default homepage? What is FireFox's default homepage?
Yeah, thought so. Guess who is probably getting a few $million to follow Chrome's URL bar delete?
Inevitability makes our cries an exercise in futility.
If the Browser is the new OS, does that mean Mozilla's turning the URL bar into the new CLI?
IE9 already does this.
That has to be the most useless item. A strip up there just to announce the program name? Waste of space. Even during 4:3 times I thought it still wasted space. There were plenty of websites that never utilized the sides well.
On my netbook I use Chrome, and have my taskbar on the right, NeXT style.
Livid at no 4:3 screens? Really? Do you literally go into this rage, jumping up and down like a Grimm Brothers character, frothing at the mouth when you got the news? I myself like widescreen, after all our EYES are oriented on a "wide" manner. I could understand if you were some type of fish with vertical oriented eyes, but humans can see to the side better than up and down.
Because it's demonstrably true.
Sadly, most programmers (there are notable exceptions) will always choose to do the work that is less important, but more likely to gather recognition.
So to fix this, stop lionizing idiots who want to remove useful information from the display and start standing up and cheering for the guys who are committing dozens or hundreds of one-line bugfixes that actually add value to the software by eliminating flaws. Bugfix should be more prestigious than feature creep, do you hear me Mozilla Foundation and Slashdot Editors?
DO NOT WANT
The whole point of Firefox is customization. Do not force whimsical changes. View, Toolbars, Customize, knock yourselves out. All I have is the Menu line with controls & URL Bar, and below the Tab line...illustrated by my funky example: http://crazynuts.hollosite.com/grfx/Firefox_Custom_Toolbars.png cheers!
This is revenue driven obviously as miss-typed URLs usually redirect to a search engine, each search being exposure to advertising. Doing away with URLs by default would drive even more traffic to search engines.
This is not about usability or security, especially since it is a huge backwards step in the latter from the point of view of phishing.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Doesn't anyone else see the potential benefit to this? I'd love for the URL to take a hike and have a simple keystroke provide me with a gnome-do type command line. The default could be for a google search, whereas tags could be used to pick from bookmarks. Putting the tabs at the top-level of the browser was a great idea and that came from Chrome; this could be a good "feature" to put in, provided they execute it properly. The only thing I really use the URL bar for is search anyway.
Seriously, get off the mobile bandwagon if your doing Desktop software and stick with Desktop design ideas.
The problem here is that subnotebook PCs straddle the line between desktop and mobile. They have the same size screen as a tablet, yet they run a desktop operating environment.
I'm the author of the guest blog post. I have some clarifications that should clear things up a lot.
First, I'm just a member of the large community of Firefox users. I do not work for Mozilla (though that would be awesome), and I do not speak for Mozilla. As far as I know, no one within Mozilla is working on implementing any of my ideas at the moment. I simply had a concept and was offered the amazing opportunity to write some guest blog posts. The linked post is Part 1. Part 2 is coming.
Second, contrary to the article summary and to the many comments from people who clearly did not read the post, I am not proposing to hide the location. The location will be completely visible at the top of each page, with even more information. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that the location bar can do that is not possible in my concept.
Finally, the arguments behind each step are available in much more detail on the Mozilla Wiki. That should answer many questions.
if you want to contribute to the discussion in a substantive manner, please first read the article and then go to the discussion page. I've already responded to a number of excellent comments there. Also, if anyone is interested in helping me implement some of these ideas, please let me know!
David
Unity wants to hide scrollbars, GNOME does away with minimize and maximize buttons, and now browsers are hiding the URL bar. Next up--the window! This overly complicated UI element must be hidden from users, it does nothing but confuse them!
Why not auto hide the fucking title bar. I'm frustrated by this for over a decade. It really is useless.
The article conflates 2 things that make the URL bar suck.
1) It's basically the output of /dev/urandom which is ugly and a waste of space.
2) It's pretty stupid. It should be able to tell the difference between searches (words that form an invalid URL or that don't resolve) and searches. For example, if I want to find the time in San Francisco, I open a new tab, type google.com into the url bar and then enter "time: san francisco". That should all be done straight in the URL bar.
The article makes those two issues seem like one issue, which they're not. But at the same time both are real annoyances and it's good that someone is thinking about it.
The address bar has always sucked for phishing prevention. How many normal people really register the difference between facebook.com faceboook.com facebook.cn facebook.com.cn and so on?
Where's LibreFox when we need it :D
Seriously, just fork it into several competing projects so we get
*better* browsers.
Or OpenFox, FreeFox or whatever. .
New tabs/windows will get a URL bar, and when you finish entering the URL, the bar will disappear and the page will load. From then on, you navigate with the mouse. When you open a link in a new tab/window, the URL bar will be shown for a few seconds when you first switch to the window. If you follow a link that leads to a different server, the URL bar will be shown for a few seconds. If you want to see it again, double-click the tab.
Twinstiq, game news
"David Regev suggests that the location bar should be replaced with a tool to support more than just one command" eh? We'll all be back to using the command line soon.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
David Regev isnt a Mozilla employee, and Google hasnt removed the URL bar at all. They added an additional experimental layout option to the Dev version of firefox; for reference, they have already had side-tabs as an optional experiment for about the last 7 versions.
But no, everyone get all in a panic, some dev is toying with some ideas and some one with no say in Firefox has an opinion.
now that's an idea right up my street .
The URL Bar is an essential part of a browser so get yer mitts of it
So your argument is basically if you can't protect the illiterate / dyslexics, you shouldn't protect anyone at all?
Looking at the URL bar is basically effortless. Pressing a key or clicking a certain place with the mouse isn't. If it isn't effortless, you'll not do it. The dream for phishing sites!
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
will be the day I uninstall Firefox. No menus, no discoverable general functionality, no buttons, only a command line? Back to the 1970s -- except that it's an invisible command line that you have to invoke with a magic hotkey? Get rid of all chrome only to reintroduce it in the content area where every fucking malevolent webpage can spoof it? Chrome and content are separated for a reason! And then I have to scroll back to the top to see my location on the web, thereby losing my location on the page? Append tab history to the current page like a neverending toilet paper roll? Force me to type "browse" for the by far most frequent action in a browser, entering a URL? And that with ALT pressed all the time? Left pinky, meet RSI. I only have two hands with ten fingers on them, does he want me to wedge a toothpick below the ALT key so I can blind-type? Make every command contextual to where the mouse pointer happens to be, so that I have to first move it away to some safe location, IF there is any such safe location left on the screen?
This "UI is bad" ideology may be the zeitgeist, but it's totally crazy.
Simple as that, not much more to say.
Not using Firefox 4, not interested in 5 or 6 or 7 or god knows what else, their philisophy is a complete shambles.
Anyone got any alternatives? I am so tied to some Firefox plugins that I need someone else to maintain a stable and secure release of 3.6 - it's all I want - just performance increases, security fixes, bug fixes and any new rendering technologies needed to be added to the backend engine. The front end, for me at least is perfect in 3.6.
I do that every time I get a fresh install of Firefox. Keyboard shortcuts do just fine. I just have the URL bar, menus, and bookmark bar.
No. Protect people with tools that work.
The retards can fight over stupidity. I'll keep using the browser that's had it all, long before the others.
Someone ought to fork Firefox. It's about time someone stood up and said "enough is enough" and made a straight-up browser for people with stuff to do. No fancy crap that can be handled by addons, no screwing with the interface. Fork the latest version of FF3 and do what parent said: bugfixes, performance work, and under-the-hood additions. Someone out there has to have the initiative and the know-how to do this.
This disease that so many software makers seem to be getting whereby useful one-click-away buttons and widgets are regarded as heresy HAS TO GO! I'm so sick of idiots with new unproven ideas foisting them on us all, forcing us to re-learn tried and true methods of achieving things. First it happened to Microsoft Office, now I hear Open Office wants to be infected with the same disease. First chrome decides to strip away all functionality, so Mozilla has to copy? WHY GOD, WHY? Just leave stuff alone FFS!
If there are options to turn this stuff back on, then I guess I will at learn learn to accept it. Not even Apple in all their we-hate-features-and-user-choice philosophy wouldn't dream of going to this bizarre extreme!
No-one is asking for this.
What is it with these crazy user-interface obsessionists? First they inflict themselves upon Gnome, then Ubuntu, Chrome and now Firefox.
Stop designing your software for idiots, and instead educate people. If people don't understand what the URL bar is for, explain it to them, rather than removing it for the rest of us who find it useful.
worldmobilenet.com -- World Prepaid Wireless Internet plans
So after making the address bar double as a search bar, and a history bar, now yo uwant to get rid of it for a magic bar? And the article describes, in a great many words by the way, a command line interface. big surprise.
You know where this came from? All those people who have Google as their homepage and don't even use the URL bar.
I know competent computer users who type website addresses into google and then click the top search result. At the other extreme I know non-savvy's who have no idea what the URL bar is for or that its even somewhere to type.
The same thing happened to the bookmarks toolbar - it was the coolest thing to happen to Firefox (2?) and in 4 they hide it by default!
#include <sig.h>
Is it April 1st?
Earth to Firefox developers: This is just plain stupid, focus on real improvements.
Users: If you don't understand a URL bar contents or don't care for it, just don't look at it.
It is like a move Microsoft would do. Give them stupid cr*p and it will seem that we have actually changed our product a great deal...
first they rip out support for web loadable xul files killing my homemade wiki, and all the content on it. now they are going to take away the url bar so i can't type in, or see, the destination i'm wanting to go to. wtf?!? sooo, chrome...
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
So now every Firefox user is going to need to install URL-4-Evar right after they install Status-4-Evar.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I'll go one step further. I think the awesome bar in FF is an example of great user interface design. Typing is quick and easy. Using a mouse is slow.
I don't have to hunt through a couple of folders of bookmarks in a menu; oh whoops moved the mouse a few pixels to far have to start at level 1 of the tree again. Instead I can type sla [down arrow][enter] and be on slashdot. Other bookmarks are the same, type the first couple of letters and it appears at the top of the auto-completions.
If I was reading a cool article on last week and want to look at it again all I have to do is type a few keywords and it will appear. I don't have to hunt through the menu to find the history button then try and remember the exact day I was looking at it, then find it in the pages looked at that day. For example I opened a new tab and only had to type "url bar" to see this article as the top result. Quick, easy, effective.
Uhmm, well, full screen mode with an auto-hiding address bar has been in Firefox for how long?
You ought to try Seamonkey 2.1, it's mostly Firefox 4 with a classic interface :). the theme is slightly updated over the old mozilla 1.x suite.
there may be less extensions but you can live with that. It also runs quick on older computers (e.g. pentium 3 with 256MB), an improvement over firefox 3.x
Developers add stuff that management demands, ignoring users and warnings from developers. Bugs are fixed when large customers threaten to take their business elsewhere. Source, of course, is unavailable, so the user can't fix bugs.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Get rid of the Title Bar. Move the Close, Maximize, Minimize, Menu and Pin buttons somewhere else. Use smaller icons, and get rid of every last pixel of buffer space above and below them.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I hate to spoil your rant, but you can turn the status bar back on in FF4.
The trick is in knowing that they now call it the "add-on bar".
In the new menu, go to Firefox -> Options -> Add-on bar. Or press Ctrl+/
The URL preview and download status still won't show in the bar like it used to, but if you want that as well, you can still restore that old behaviour with this addon, as recommend by Mozilla's official knowledgebase.
How's that for configurable?
Weren't the UI changes in 4.0 bad enough? The ribbon interface is crap, it is conceptually crap. Hey why not take all the useful buttons we've made handy in the UI and hide them through an extra layer of abstraction so they are harder to get to. Hooray!
The only people who could possibly like this are those who waste time customizing the toolbars in every app they use and want to save 2 seconds... once... clearing the existing options. Wait there was one bar most everyone would customize, the bookmarks toolbar, but they hid that one too.
Unbelievable,
but at long long last, the Command Line Interface comes back ?
the "url" bar becoming this command line interface again. Seems like a good idea.
Ubiquity is astonishing is its own.
BUT!
come on, who is things like ubiquity aimed at ? No troll meant, but i'm a fan of cli myself, and most of my coworker (in IT sector) can't stand it, look at me like an bizarre fool out of the eighties, and do prefer click-o-dromic interfaces.
What about grandma ? what about the basic smartphone user who has only one finger ?
Plus : okay for using natural language, great, fantastic... but english is NOT the natural language of the majority. (Chinese is by far, in number of speaker, and english is foreign language to most - me included you'll have noticed I guess ;-) ).
see what I mean ?
All this look like great poweruser tools, (ubiquity video is clear : its goal is to enpower the user).
but must not replace what made computer *usable and trivial for anyone*.
(if I'm wrong here, vim users will soon outnumber any other advanced text editor. Do you sincerely believe that ?)
Taking the URL bar away would be like taking away my thumbs. And animals with no opposable thumbs are generally looked at as food.... This is not a good idea.
i like seeing the URL. It provides useful info on the site. Make it optional or give it an autohide feature like the Windows taskbar.
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
Browsers should move away from the old chrome frame, it takes too much space! Think about smartphones and tablets. They should create a less cluttered option and let the chrome go away.
20 years around computers, and all you are is a tech? You're a joke Robert. You must be a retrograde idiot, because even young kids in collegiate academia accomplish more than that Robert, and they do it in less time put in. The "M" in your name must stand for moron. You're telling others to write their own add ons? Let's see an obviously limited dolt like you do one instead.
20 years around computers, and all you are is a tech? You're a joke Robert. You must be a retrograde idiot, because even young kids in collegiate academia accomplish more than that Robert, and they do it in less time put in. The "M" in your name must stand for moron. Enlighten us as to why you are only a techie after all that time, won't you? You don't have to, because it's obvious you're a moronic limited dolt.