Slashdot Mirror
Political Science Prof Asks: Is Algebra Necessary?
Capt.Albatross writes "Andrew Hacker, a professor of Political Science at the City University of New York and author of Higher Education? How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids — and What We Can Do About It, attempts to answer this question in the negative in today's New York Times Sunday Review. His primary claim is that mathematics requirements are prematurely and unreasonably limiting the level of education available to otherwise capable students ."
substitute in his thesis,
Algebra is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white.
and substitute to:
History is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white.
and you have a perfect argument for me and the school system not requiring History.
Even better,
$yourWorstSubject is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white.
and we've eliminated the need for any required subjects.
"I am not good at", or "I don't want to" are not good arguments for not requiring learnin'.
(-e**(i*pi) st post)
NO.
It's the unintuitive ways in which it's taught (which in turn causes the societal alienation of the subject) that is the problem, not the fact that it's a requirement.
Mathematics is nothing less than the upmost tool of rationality. Lose it, and all progress decays.
[SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS
I'm pretty sure if I wrote that paper, the resulting Slashdot headline would be "Engineer Asks: Is Political Science Necessary?"
The point is not learning how to do complex calculation, the point is by learning these mathematical subjects you develop certain skills in logic, problem solving , and in critical thinking. It goes beyond mathematics and to how to be a rational thinker ( and yes I am exaggerating a bit ).
The article's author should be penalized for pointing out the unemployment rates for hard sciences graduates with no comparison to the corresponding rates for liberal arts majors.
If you want to understand the world, you need math. If your education doesn't include that, what sort of education is it?
... is High School necessary?
... and why we make fun of the artsies. If you can't do basic math then you have no place in higher learning.
Perhaps it would be better to move away from graduation based on everything together, to passes in individual subjects? Allow pupils to excel in the areas they can.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
The summary and headline seem to imply that the professor is questioning whether algebra/mathematics is necessary for anyone, but really he's asking if it's necessary for everyone. I have a degree in physics and computer engineering and I personally benefit tremendously from mathematics. But pretty much everyone I know (outside of my comp sci/phsyics friends) is terrible at math, and never use anything except simple calculations in their daily lives, and they get by just fine in their professions. Yes, they do a lot of math without being very aware of it, but they don't need to know the extent of the theory, and they aren't what I would consider especially proficient, which is what highschool at least aims to make you.
The professor in the article is asking something completely different and reasonable: since everyone is different, and everyone has a set of proficiencies and aptitudes, why do we try to teach everything a set of knowledge someone somewhere has somehow determined to be paramount? What if everyone's talent was fostered at a young age instead of forcing them to neglect their proficiencies and learn skills which perhaps they will never use? Would we end up with a society where everyone was an expert at something, rather than a society where everyone has a little knowledge everywhere but no real spectacular skill?
I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but really, I think they're worth considering. I for one was fostered at a young age because my parents identified that I was good at science and math, and I benefited tremendously. I could only imagine if that kind of fostering was afforded to every child, we might be better off.
There is so much missing from high school and post high school education. I'm from Quebec so the system is a bit different, you go to CEGEP between high school and university here. Anyways, nobody learns about how the society works here. We need young people to learn about the Civil Code, how contracts work, how renting works, how buying real estate works. Nothing in depth, but at least a functional knowledge so you don't walk into bad situations.
Am I making sense? We are focusing on things that are easy to teach like piles of math. Things that are complex and can create aware citizens seems to interest the system less.
Mostly random stuff.
http://xkcd.com/451/
Is political science necessary?
YES! If political science majors studied things like engineering or computer science instead, then who would sell me coffee?
Most students do not really understand mathematics anyway, they simply memorize equations and techniques. Why should students who can't manage that be barred from the higher levels in other courses?
The author of that article cites high dropout rates, then claiming that these are caused by algebra courses without any evidence. Really, freshman year algebra is simple and taught even earlier in many schools.
I can't honestly associate "college level" with having to learn remedial algebra. Secondary or tertiary training for the innumerate should be distinguished from advanced or professional education. We already have a hand waving, bullsht "politically correct" society, ever less capable of effective competition and critical thought at the individual level. This brain fart proposal further promotes and affirms that.
But it's no surprise that a political science prof doesn't understand this.
Algebra is a subset of mathematics, and forms the basis for statistics. Statistical analysis is required in just about every science field as well as arts. Social studies and biology require analysis of population dynamics; geology and geography require understanding of hydrodynamic equations. Psychology requires statistical analysis in many different ways. There's even a mathematical package called SPSS - Statistical Package for the Social Sciences. Even history will require the use of probabilty analysis to determine the most likely chain of events.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Let's just sell diplomas to everyone with a credit card and we'll be the most educated nation in the world! So what if the people buying them cannot balance their checkbooks or figure out that $50/month for 60 months is way more expensive than a $1000 one time fee - hey, we'll be propping up the failing bank industry too!
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house."
If we stop teaching algebra to all students at the high school or early college level, we are closing certain doors to them. You simply cannot master an entry-level, algebra-based Physics course without geometry and a lot of algebra work. If you can't do that, you cannot major in physics, most engineering subjects, nor math itself. I think economics would be a stretch as well.
If students (or parents) can choose to not take algebra at the 9th grade level, they are making a de facto decision that they will not study nor work in a STEM field later in life. Age 13 is awfully early to make that choice. They have not even attempted the challenge yet -- they do not know their abilities.
Even if they do continue in their studies and gain admittance to college, it will almost be a moot point. Their opportunities will have long since been limited.
Political Science Prof Asks: Is Algebra Necessary?
That's Political Science.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
If you've been in any large business you realize that it operates primarily on Excel spreadsheets being repeatedly e-mailed back and forth. While many of the folks creating these spreadsheets don't even realize it, each of the cells are little algebraic equations. People often ask "what from math class do you use every day", well algebra is an easy one, people write business formulas in Excel.
Politics is not a science except in Asimov stories.
Korma: Good
How about we teach math theory from the bottom up instead of teaching students this is a formula and this is when you use it? When you understand a thing rather than having it by rote it will stay with you.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Longer answer:
The fact that anyone felt the need to ask this question says to me that we're doing education wrong in the USA. Very wrong. Fundamentally wrong. Yes, algebra is necessary, possibly more necessary than any other branch of math, because there are so many other fundamentally useful concepts wrapped up in it -- formal logic, proof, and a whole bunch of other basic building blocks of epistemology, not just mathematics -- that IMHO it's crucial to teaching students to think and reason answers and not just churn them out by rote memorization the way they do with arithmetic .. the way we're currently teaching it.
But why are we approaching the subject as though it's something "hard" that we have to "work" to learn and then question whether the effort is necessary? The only reason we have that view of it is that by the time our kids hit algebra, they've had all the curiosity and fascination for new knowledge hammered out of them, by normalizing their curriculum to death assembly-line style. Arithmetic by addition and multiplication tables and memorization is boring, mind-numbingly so, and any kid who gets through that gauntlet and is still interested in algebra didn't learn his/her math in the classroom, they learned it by exploring and playing around with it and getting a feel for number theory and how arithmetic operators work .. you know, real math, the kind that gets the imagination flowing.
And if you haven't had curiosity crushed out of you by memorization drills, algebra is fascinating. If you're teaching it right and letting the math itself do the teaching, you'd be hard pressed to stop kids from learning it. Case in point: In my 6th grade math class, a "substitute" (who I'm fairly sure was actually an education researcher experimenting with math teaching methods, but "substitute" was what they called him) came into the class, which was starting on basic algebra, and taught us what turned out to be differentiation by the power rule. I ended up using that one method in every math class I had from then on -- much to the consternation of my teachers who weren't quite sure how to deal with me doing differential calculus on high school algebra tests -- but I also ended up exploring how polynomials went through simpler and simpler derivatives until they ended up as a constant, and then zero, and gained a whole new appreciation for how they worked, and later on, integration and the fundamental theorem of calculus just sort of fell into place. The power rule is still one of my old friends when it comes to math. But I have that "substitute" to thank for most of the algebra I learned on my own because I couldn't get enough of it -- that one little seed sparked a whole adventure that continued to teach me mathematics for decades afterward.
Granted, I'm a hardcore nerd in a lot of ways, but I'm not entirely sure that's an aspect of who I am and not just an artifact of a society raised on the "math is hard" meme. It's hard, yes, but it's irresistible to a curious mind, and we're all born curious .. it's how we bootstrap every bit of knowledge we gain firsthand about the world. If we stop killing it in the schools, give it a few generations and our PolySci professors wouldn't even think to ask this question..
Given how poor people's basic math is, I don't think Algebra is the problem. I'd say if anything there isn't enough focus on math in general and that needs to be improved rather than taking math away.
I found this proposal more insightful than questioning the need for teaching algebra. Teach statistics before calculus: http://www.ted.com/talks/arthur_benjamin_s_formula_for_changing_math_education.html
As a college student myself (and one who is not particularly good at math), I know full and well that math is necessary and, indeed, some algebra is necessary but at some point the issue of relevance must come into play. I'm a computer technician by trade, not a programmer, a technician. I aim to go into system administration. I might need the occasional bits of basic algebra, but thus far, I have yet to encounter any scenario where I've wished I had a better grasp of logarithmic equations.
The article suggest that perhaps applied uses of mathematics and statistics might be more useful and I totally agree with that assertion. There are plenty of good jobs out there where you don't need to know polynomial equations. I'm not convinced that every Kindergarten teacher needs to know matrices or that every real estate agent needs a firm grasp of conics. I do feel that many American's would benefit from more statistics in lieu of more algebra. Like many Americans, I would much rather be able to understand how variations in market volatility might affect my return on investment than devote more time to inverse functions.
The Gospel according to lolcat
From the article:
It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.
WTF? So he's saying that children in these other countries have more perseverance than those in the USA? No, I think not. I think the problem is that children in the USA are being taught more poorly. And assigning blame for that is complicated. It's not necessarily the teachers' fault, but it's likely a whole host of things.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
if you have to add the word "science" it probably isn't. Biology? Science. Chemistry? Science. Physics? Science. Political science? Not so much.
The Newton/Leibniz invention of integral and differential calculus rates as one of the very greatest achievements of all time. It ranks as high as any work of literature or art. I don't know if someone could not be considered educated if they haven't studied it, let alone pass algebra.
When my students ask me, "When am I ever going to use this in my real life?"
I reply, "Right now, right here, you need it to graduate high school."
I have never understood why people consider school life, or any other part of life, not real life.
I learned algebra in middle school not college. At least where I went to college calculus was the first college level math. Anything lower didn't even count toward your math credits.
And I use algebra constantly. And knowledge of algebra is necessary for my spreadsheet grade books. And geometric proofs gave me some of the most pleasurable homework/classroom experiences in my K-12 education. I honestly don't think it hurts anyone, everyone, to learn algebra. Maybe calculus is taking it a bit far for _everyone_, but not everyone even takes algebra, so this guy is basically doing the high-brow version of trolling. If anything, I'd say we need MORE math, but of a simpler, more applied variety, like calculating compound interest, household budgets, calories, bills, and so on. But the need for more simple stuff doesn't mean we don't want people to at least have a taste of higher abstract thought and fricking reasoning. God knows, we could do with more reasoning.
But it's not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar
Spoken like a man who has never taken a philosophy class...
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
No, algebra isn't necessary. Many people get along just fine without it. My wife never uses it and says it was a waste of time to force feed to her in school. I on the other hand find algebra very easy as do all of our kids. My kids and I all use algebra on a daily for non-school work. My wife doesn't need it and it doesn't come natural to her. It comes natural to our sons, daughter and I and we use it all the time. Probably my wife would use it if it was easy for her but she also doesn't "need" it.
The subjects taught at school are chosen by... drum roll please... medieval custom.
That is to say, we study the subjects we do not because they are essential or useful, but because they are part of a "classical" education and we've always taught that way.
Algebra is the foundation of all the rest of mathematics, so in a sense it's the first thing one would teach outside of basic arithmetic (add, subtract, multiply, divide).
Rather than algebra, let's consider trigonometry.
No one would argue that trigonometry isn't important, but wouldn't probability be more useful? The ability to judge the likelihood of something, or the potential payout?
No one would argue that geometry isn't important, but how about [personal] economics, or statistics? The ability to read and understand the results of a scientific study, or a political speech, or just to understand whether maxing out your credit card is a good idea.
There's lots of things we *should* be teaching children, but instead we load them up with esoteric subjects simply because that's the way we've always done it - for over 600 years.
I am offended that he and his kind pretend to be scientists.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Too many kids are dropping out of school. The logic is clear; we could have fewer kids dropping out we don't require them to learn anything.
I.e., don't ascribe to Prof. Hacker, based purely on the title or summary of the /. post (or on your prejudices about education, political science, political scientists, politics, politicians, or people who can't prove that (x^2 + y^2)^2 = (x^2 - y^2)^2 + (2xy)^2), views that he does not, in fact, hold. Thank you.
.. but got stuck between the balls and anus of public education, landing right square on the taint?
I was doing Trig since my Freshman year of HS due to Electronics courses, but the actual Math department stuff had me topping out at Geometry, which came before Trig in the curriculum pecking order, followed by Precal and Calc. I was busting out sine, cosine, and tangent three years before I was supposed to and ended up being marked down on my grade because of it.
The worst part is I missed some of the simple stuff due to the cookie cutter approach not being adaptable to my unique situation. I still don't understand "opposite operations" intuitively or otherwise.
"Show your work"... indeed. Goddamn drudgery when you can bash out a QBASIC program that solves it for you in maybe half an hour as opposed to staying up til 2AM only to fall asleep in class.
And then I'm told Calculus negates basically everything prior to it. I just end up glazing over the moment I see Greek alphabet most of the time.
There are secrets and keys to understanding hidden in all that shit. And I want to know it, but I'm left with only small pieces of the story with no clue what I'm missing or where to pick it up and fill in the gaps. It's incredibly frustrating and the shortcomings of the assembly line approach to education drive me bonkers.
In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king--and the two-eyed man is a heretic.
I am teaching college algebra this summer, as a math graduate student, and I've come to the conclusion that the students are barely learning math. Mathematics is about problem solving and the extremely, logical reasoning inherent in the proof-theorem structure of mathematics.
Students don't learn problem solving. Word problems are too hard for them, so they need to be held by the hand. Nor can they learn general principles and apply them on their own without a recipe given to them. They are confused if you present an alternative way of solving a problem using the same principles they are learning, but not "by the book".
The beautiful elegance in precision of argument in proofs is also not conveyed in these courses. I tell my students that in mathematics, the answer to a problem is not a number boxed in at the end of the page, but everything you write down on your piece of paper. You are a lawyer, but with a very picky judge, who won't stand for anything else but a tight argument. Highschool geometry is intended to convey this aspect of math, but I am doubtful it works, and their is no reason to convey to students that geometry is the only subject that has proofs.
Because of what is lacking in these courses, the general public doesn't understand what I do as a graduate student, or what my professors do either.
For anything else you can't do statistics in any college level major which is a requirement (unless you do humanities). You also can't do chemistry or any science course because you can't interpret a graph. Infact, you can't even do a simple presentation in the workforce as a graph wont make any sense without knowing what an x,y, independent variable and so on.
But since the middle class is going down the crap shoot then say know as counting change for the cash register for minimum wage is the wave of the future.
What a stupid topic ...
http://saveie6.com/
How about we eliminate non-core classes from degree requirements? Why is that as a comp sci student I have to take any classes in the sociology/humanities area? I can see having electives, but why does X number of elective credits have to come from those departments?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
If he had made the argument about Calculus, maybe, but Algebra is too frequently valuable. Even vague recollections of some pre-calculus lessons at least somewhat help people navigate the trappings of banking offerings.
The thing that strikes me:
To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school.
The implication being that our nation, in comparison to others, has a lower rate of high school completion than other nations. His answer would be to lower the bar. While this very myopically could improve the very specific metric, we could acheive the same thing by giving out high school diplomas to any toddler that can reliably count to 10. Of course, the fact that the world rapidly adjusts to reflect the american high school diploma as less valuable is conveniently ignored.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
logic. Most high schools don't or won't include logic in their curriculum and so logic's cousin mathematics has to serve double duty. So, if you want kids to be devoid of any experience with logic and even more irrational than they already are, then sure get rid of algebra.
Since it's my understanding they don't have distribution requirements, IE you could theoretically avoid algebra or any other class if you really wanted to do so.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Do we really need to be taught by lumbering dinosaurs who have reached their tenured position
only through hidining below the radar, pubilshing papers instead of teaching, and who don't
understand the "modern" aspects of algebra, CAI, and office-time?
Clearly not. It's time to remove the onerous obligations of students to have to put up with these
dinosaurs, and eliminate "teach for the sake of having a free lifetime job" from the manual. If
you love to teach, teach. If you'd like to do research, find a grant and research. If all you want
to do is avoid students and kvetch about how "some other department with whom I have a feud
in my mind" is valueless, go get a job. A real job. One where if you screw up or don't do anything
you get fired.
Then from atop that dais come preach to us how other people are teaching useless things.
E
Figures that is is a US Poly Sci prof who argues learning basic math logic is a waste of money.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
It's the unintuitive ways in which it's taught ... that is the problem
Lockhart put this quite elegantly in his A Mathematician's Lament. Treating math as a rote subject (as it is now) is the moral equivalent teaching art as paint by numbers.
It might not be needed for a Poly-Sci major(love the contradiction of calling that a science). For those who want to exercise their mind, and to have a head up on most others around them, however, yes, understanding Algebra(and I might argue Geometry and Trigonometry) is necessary. This is just another argument to dumb down classes so parents who raise their children like veal can be happy with even more devalued A's in class. The only good thing is, Those whose kids actually work hard and do it the right way will be the bosses, while those awesome LA and PS degree kids will do what they've been doing...taking my order and getting my drink at the restaurant.
I am keeping this focused on poli-sci.
To take part in a democracy the citizens are supposed to make educated informed voting choices. How do you do this if you don't understand growth rates, investment income, cost per person of wars. One should not take the opinion of news pieces one should take the facts about things and be able to form ones own opinion.
Proper democracy requires education. Math most of all in our financially driven economies.
To paraphrase Voltaire, political science is neither politics nor science nor indeed necessary. But, I guess it provides training on how to get in the papers.
Well, if that's the case I demand that we in engineering were never forced to take all those stupid management and environmental law subjects. Most of us don't need them and we are able to come up with the ideas mentioned in those courses anyway simply by applying some logic.
For those that didn't RTFA (which seems to be a lot of people here), he does actually advocate the teaching of algebra, just via a "backdoor" which amounts to applied Algebra in another subject.
Parsing his argument, the different between the two is probably the critique that he should have made: some people struggle not so much with the basic formal thinking skills involved in Algebra but with its notation, which is tremendously economical.
I think that there is something to the argument that we ought to consider teaching the thinking skills learned in Algebra in ways that don't require the particular notation that is commonly associated with it, so that people can gain formal and quantitative reasoning experience and skills even if they struggle mightily economical, significantly abstracted symbolic systems.
Right now, if they can't eventually grok the notation, they don't manage to gain the thinking skills, either, because we marry them.
I think there's a benefit to be had by wondering whether or not we could teach these skills in another way for those that can't do notation and ultimately fail it repeatedly and/or never get it down. At least then we might have more people with formal reasoning and analytical skills, whereas now the Algebra drop-outs or C-level passes have essentially neither thinking skills nor notation skills at all (and it's a lot of people).
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
He has gotten a few minutes of glory by killing a sacred cow. In this case The-Math-Is-Vital to-Higher-Education cow. The cow is sacred because it is a good and right cow. An all-the-way-down cow. It is so easy to make a name for yourself by taking contrary positions -- especially if they are outrageous. This specious argument was born to be reported on Cable News. Or *"cough* on Slashdot. Of course these pay-as-you-go degree mills would like to have more customers. So let's just change these ridiculous standards. This guy has an agenda.
Here is my next book? "The Reading Railroad. Speak Don't Write." The summary: With the advent of text to speech and audio recording reading and writing is an unneeded barrier to many otherwise smart people getting PH.Ds. As long as they can get a student loan they can get a doctorate.
"Here. Let me help you with that wordy loan application."
The brain is a mathematical engine. When you catch a fly ball you are solving a differential equation. Intuitively. When you gauge the speed of an oncoming car to cross the street that is Algebra. Hell, even dogs can do it. Sometimes. Mathematics when taught elegantly is interesting. It is a critical structure for the first of the two main components of Education: 1) The Discipline of the Mind (The ability to think) The other being 2) The Furniture of The Mind (Knowledge). Learning a second language, doing mathematics, reading music, writing computer code are all mental disciplines that require a disciplined mind. Knowledge without mental discipline is furniture without a room.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
There's a lot of prejudice today from the STEM crowd against disciplines in the social sciences and philosophy even though the math requirements are similarly rigorous.
It's just that the category of problems being approached by these groups aren't problems that scientists and engineers are familiar with: they exclude any notion of causality from the start and the correlative properties of any case are highly complex. Not to mention that they deal with black-box agents as objects that behave in unpredictable ways.
That doesn't mean that it's not useful to be able to find a correlation between (for example) not learning Algebra and financial success later in life. In fact, I don't suspect most STEM folks would find the prospect of a study like that to be inherently unscientific, so long as the claims were precise and well qualified and the methodology sound. They just forget that *that is social science* in practice. I see social-scientific arguments and data here on /. all the time, but also see lots of dismissal of the social scientists that produced much of our common knowledge about, say, the importance of STEM for economic success at the national level.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
In my case, I wasn't any good at math untill I was about 10 or 11,
before that, my brain just couldn't process it,
after 10, I got a natural understanding of it.
It's not that they teach to much, they teach to early.
butt math is hard! i dont no why u think that everyone nedes to learn hard stuff i have an iphone witch has a calculader app so why do i need to care about sily stuff like math and speling. well my spellin app is broken write now but i can still talk and stuff so what watt is the biggie? u dont have to kno how a car work in order too drive. i dont use math @ work , I sell furnituer. so y did i have 2 sufer so much @ school bcuz u geeks want 2 proove u are so smart. but u r not.
he's obviously unqualified to discuss any real science topics.
That you are excluding people from history and English degrees just because they did not do Mathematics - in the UK Oxbridge would be looking for A* English Lang and Lit and History A levels - they used to require O level Latin but dropped that in the late 70's..
I doubt any Admissions tutor for a UK university for the soft degrees gives a rats ass about the candidates Mathematical knowledge
He thinks algebra is bad but thinks all kids should learn something so fundamentally nonuseful as long division? (Yes I know it's useful once you get to polynomial division, but that's algebra ... It's often not even taught in calculus where it becomes useful to integrate rational functions.)
I teach at the university level, and from time to time I teach non-math majors, and I don't think the problem is that algebra is too hard. It is that the amount of effort students put into studying has gone significantly down. See:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/college-inc/post/five-colleges-where-students-study/2012/05/22/gIQAK0gvhU_blog.html
On average, students now spend 15 hours studying per week compared to 24 in 1960. The problem is not algebra, it is facebook, iphone, internet in general, grade inflation, and role models nowdays being those that made a lot of money with no effort compared to astronauts in the 1960s.
I had my wife visit one of my calculus classes once and she sat in the back row. There was about half the class present (normal if you don't require attendance in a large lecture). Half of the remaining half was playing with their iphones and ipads or whatnot (no, not taking notes on them). And that was a calculus class where majority were engineers, students who are generally more interested in math. I know how pre-calculus can run and it can be depressing that no matter how hard you try to make the subject interesting (and approachable) you have at most one or two people in a class who pay attention and do what one would consider "well". Then due to grade inflation, most of the students pass anyway without getting much out of the class.
I had to take all sorts of classes as an undergrad (including political science) and I enjoyed every one of them. I had to work more in some than in others, though of course liberal arts classes were usually easiest to get an A without an effort. It's easy to get an A in art class for example, without having a shred of artistic talent. I found almost all these classes were doable with just going to class, doing homework and no extra studying. Comparing grades of different subjects is total nonsense. Would we improve the situation if we just gave everyone an A in math?
In summary, I don't think that anyone capable of being good in any field taught in a university can't pass an algebra class given a bit of effort. If it is not important to you to put in the effort, then your own field is not very important to you either. Why would it be an advantage to have an unmotivated person like that graduate?
You must have read I different article than I did because I just went back and RTFA'ed and it is obviously an anti-intellectual diatribe.
Not surprising from a poly sci prof really.
Algebra a "higher math requirement"? Really? Next you will be advocating that we water down the english lit and composition requirements.
Here's a situation where a better background in History can provide some perspective on the matter.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It's more necessary than Political Science and Business Management. Actually football is more important than those two.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
A stairway has a 8" rise for a 5" run. Lay out (on a length of 2x10) a stringer to support a stairway that rises 10 feet. Hint: use trig to compute the length of the stringer, given a Y value of 10, and a ratio Y:X of 8:5
A plumbing run must drop 1" for every 6' of run. How much pipe will you need for a 20' run?
And so on.
Damn it, the ability to memorize boring data IS important! Sure, you have this Internet thing in front of you that puts a lot of information at your fingertips, but that doesn't excuse you from having to remember boring facts! When one is in high school and elementary school, much of what students are expected to learn may seem boring to them. They may not think it's important to know that Ben Franklin was older than George Washington, or that Napolean was defeated twice. They don't think it's important to know the difference between kilowatt and kilowatt-hour. The first time a teenager depends on knowledge which he had recently obtained, which had seemed useless to him at the time of their instruction, a light should dawn in his mind and some respect for schooling by thus obtained. The first time that he realizes that the skills which were acquired in order to learn the 'useless trivia' of their schooling have prepared him for more rapidly acquiring, for instance, the nautical terms describing his beloved boat, then we should hope that respect for the SKILL of learning increases.
Same people who do it now? Pretty immigrant girls who came to America because it's where you find a rich husband?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Well CS / 4 years pure class room is not needed for most IT jobs.
IT needs more more of trades / tech school like class room learning and an apprenticeship system.
If my banker ISN'T "doing all that algebra" she isn't doing her job (at all, let alone properly).
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
Professor Numbnuts should go check out Nate Silver's blog sometime and he might learn the value of algebra to his own discipline.
First we (US media, etc.) say that we are falling behind other countries in education, then we turn around and say it's too hard, then we do No Child Left Behind, then we try to raise test scores by various means, and now we question if any learning if necessary.
Shouldn't the emphasis always be on raising standards?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Why is finishing high school a goal in and of itself? I thought the fact that you finished was supposed to mean something -- if not, let's relax the requirements of History, English, Science, etc. and graduate students solely based on attendance! Of course, if we did that, such enlightened minds might start asking why we are wasting billions of dollars on an education which teaches nothing.
I believe an advanced society _should_ have the goal of educating every citizen to his/her full capacity. If this is not possible, however, it may be better to divert some students to trade schools where they only learn what they need. Even if this were the case, however, not giving future voters a basic grounding in Science, History, and Math virtually guarantees that they will eventually elect morons who revel in their ignorance.
The education system over does it in some areas and gives people BIG skills gaps while being a big time sink.
We need to more away from the on size fits all ideas and get rid of the ideas of 4+ years when you can learn alot more skills needed to do the job at a 2 year school.
And the higher up you go in the education system the more filler and fluff that you get (some areas).
Some math is fine but not all jobs need high levels of it and there is lot's of other stuff that needs to go ART history? Music? PE? swim test?
Are politicians really necessary?
apologies to RAH.
Egalitarianism is killing achievement in our culture!
Some people are not capable of learning advanced math. They should be given a calculator and a shovel so they can go dig ditches.
We should stop holding back our best minds with the stupid idea that everyone can do it. They can not.
We need our Einsteins.
We need to put proof back in Geometry class. If some can not handle it, let them go learn basket weaving or something.
Our civilization depends on our best minds. We need to stop holding them back with the stupid idea that everyone can do it.
Yes, math creates a difficulty for students of all ages and backgrounds. That includes the engineers, computer scientists, and physicists of the world. It is not as if we have had a free pass at mathematics because of the way our brain is wired. While it may have been simpler, I do not know anyone for whom calculus came easily at first. We all were forced to think, and to think hard, to come up with some reasoning for higher mathematics that makes sense to us. The whole point of studying mathematics beyond the basic principles is to exercise that part of our minds that must stretch to grasp a concept that is not present in day to day activities.This is why our first mathematicians were not mathematicians at all. They were Philolosophers.
One day, we will have robot dogs. Until then, my wife and I can maintain separate hobbies.
Having at least a toehold in a field of study, be it poetry or physics, means the door is open to you to learn more and thus have access to the wealth humanity has amassed in that field. Not teaching the foundations is a form of impoverishment.
Besides, "Education is what remains after you've forgotten everything you learned in school".
This is the dumbest article on the internet
The article is talking about people who fail freshman Algebra and then drop out of college. Were talking about people who are kind of stupid when it come to math. They won't be taking physics. The article is asking why we are preventing stupid people from getting majors in poetry, politics, or history?
Let us say you design a curriculum designed to teach logic, critical thinking, problem solving skills etc. Further you require that at the end the students should learn these skills at a fairly significant levels. No matter what you subject you teach to instill the students with these skills, it would be difficult and most students would struggle with it. These skills are highly non-intuitive. These are not skills needed to survive in a jungle or semi arid desert with hunter-gatherer life style. Nature would not endow us with these skills through evolution. They have to be acquired with lots of hard work and dedication. Blaming algebra is stupid. Even if you use "How I met your mother" episodes to teach these skills, to take it to the level algebra takes you to, it would have become painful drudgery most students will fail.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
It worked for me, dipshit.
Take off every 'sig' !!
I think when it comes to higher levels of math or system is simply outdated for the majority of students. Like 99% of them will never use in their lifetime and it sincerely does not help them better themselves as individuals. Maybe the classes still should be offered as advanced classes for students that truly enjoy it, but the level of math being offered compared to how often it is being used is atrocious.
It really does come down to 'doing what's always been done' in my opinion. Math can get quite advanced compared to all other subjects and it's been taught up to that level for centuries, so teachers continue to do it.
Besides basic and rudimentary math courses I could see a money management class, a basic programming class, a basic technology class (learn how to do basic troubleshooting of todays gadgets) being much more helpful. Hell I took tech-ed in junior high for two years because it was required, yet I never used any of it as it was part of carpentry.
Technology isn't going away. Software isn't going away. MONEY will not go away. This may make quite a few people angry as this steps on their jobs. But schools at the basic level should prepare students for day to day life and not teach them niche subjects that are outdated and not relevant to any part of their life. If people want to learn more about a specific area then they go to college or tech school. But I just remember how pointless math classes seemed back in highschool as I had no interest in going further into them. Some math classes can simply be replaced with programming too, as programing is a more hands on approach to math in a lot of cases.
A liberal education is supposed to produce a well-rounded individual who has had exposure to a broad range of disciplines. Algebra is basic to the math discipline in a college education.
So, yes, algebra should remain in a liberal arts curriculum. If it is a stumbling block to someone getting a degree, then it appears that person should be stumbling. If he can't grasp basic algebra, then he doesn't deserve a degree.
Of course math changes the way you think, and often to the good. The real question, left unaddressed in the original article, is when and how do we start teaching math?
There is a body of experimental evidence, mostly from upstate NY in the 20s and 30s (see [PDF] here) that the main problem in early education is that math, with its many abstractions of notation and convention, is brought in far too early. Instead, rigorous verbal and written exercises could cover the necessary conceptual bases for math to be added onto later, while not losing huge amounts of time creating arti-factual stories to get 7-year-olds to learn division, which may then interfere with their later understanding of the actual basis.
Another method that's been suggested, also with a body of experimental evidence (see for an overview), takes the opposite tack, and says okay, we can teach everything the first time in a way consistent with later fundamentals, but to do so, we have to recognize that many apparently simple steps are actually 5-7 'micro-steps' and we need to break out and teach these explicitly.
Given that much more rigorous levels of math education don't seem to cause mass dropouts or lack of bachelors attainment in many other countries, I think the emphasis should be on fixing the way we teach math, rather than further devaluing (and yes, the ability to jump through hoops is important for successful employment.. and also, this guy thinks he can do rigorous statistical inference without a rock solid understanding of modern algebra?) high school and college degrees.
Mathematics is the language used to describe how the world around you works.
I'd go further. It used to be that in the UK everyone going to university had to have a maths O'level which required _simple_ calculus. After all if I had to study Shakespeare before I could do a physics degree shouldn't those studying english study the basic maths developed by Newton to describe the same world that Shakespeare described with his plays?
I didn't see anybody mentioning that this is a very clever spoof on Brave new World. The fact that the equation is wrong is a dead giveaway. Kudos to prof Hacker.
Of all the articles I've seen questioning whether one subject or another is useful (let alone "necessary"), that one's the absolute most idiotic yet. Even though I have dyscalculia (my mind scrambles the numbers despite my best efforts) and basically struggled my way through math from first grade onwards as a result, I find algebra itself vitally important in average day-to-day life. Without grasping how to set up a simple algebraic formula, how could I figure out the true cost of items at the grocery store to know which is a better value, scale ingredients for a recipe to match what I need or if I'm low on one ingredient, or figure out amounts/measurements to use if instructions I'm following to create something will result in the item being the wrong size?
Sure, no doubt people could theoretically find an app for their smartphone (if they have one -- I don't yet) to figure that stuff out for them, but that would waste so much extra time over making up a simple equation that it's really not funny.
In addition to that, algebra is where math finally starts to make sense, and trains a kid's mind to deal with abstractions. How is some kid supposed to know that they'd love physics, chemistry, or other algebra-dependent fields if they decide not to take algebra because they hated basic math? How are they to handle programming computers, regardless of how interesting it sounds, if they haven't already trained their mind to work easily with variables or similar abstract notions?
I was actually discussing this with my father & unofficial stepmother last night, in fact... I was very annoyed as a teen that I had to "waste time" by taking any class other than English or biology, and only did so because high school & California public colleges/universities required it. I'm very glad I did, as it exposed me to so much more about the world -- including math/algebra-related things like how home loans work, physics, programming, astronomy, etc. -- that made me better at my preferred fields but that I never would have paid any real attention to or even considered trying on my own.
Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
I am terrible at math. I use it constantly. I "get it" that algebra can use some values to find unknown values. I "get it" that geometry can be useful to find square footage. I failed 2nd year algebra/calculus twice before I got a passing grade in college. This cut me right off in fields I was interested in, such as "fighter pilot", "astronaut" "spy-satellite photo-interpreter" and so on. Now I work as a photographer, and I use ratios, square footage, the inverse square law, and many of the things I had trouble with in math in college, I can use the "calculator" function in Google... have you seen that lately btw? I would have loved to work on spy sat photos for the CIA but instead I shoot photos of sexy women. dammit.
The way I see it the ultimate aim of the author of TFA is to dumb down the future generations
The dumber future generations get the easier they can be manipulated to do the dirty things that the elites themselves do not want to do
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
First, calling "political science" a science is an oximoron. That said, mathematics, when taught properly, teaches a student to break problems down and solve them, logically. I'm afraid that the methods used in classrooms today do not aproach mathematics in a way that allows many students to gain that primary skill.
Newton's three laws are physics, not, as you seem to imply, math. Also, I don't live in Quebec, so why should I care about the Régie du logement?
IMHO, understanding math is inseparable from the ability to think logically. If you can reason, you can get through math. If you can't, well, may be you can find the carrier in arts or something like that. But the kind of science which does not need math - well, I would be quite suspicious about it, that's what's called a "soft science", and being soft scientist is primarily to bullshit your way toward advanced degrees, writing papers with no content and no meaning. Duh ...
Actually found this on snorgtees.com:
"Dear Algebra,
Stop asking us to find your X.
She's not coming back"
They don't teach you mathematics because you'll need to calculate the area of triangles at work, they teach it because it forces you to use logical thinking to solve problems. Critical thinking and logic are essential to solving problems in the real world, no matter where you are.
I am not a bit surprised to see a Political Science professor suggesting the dropping of Algebra from high school curriculum
After all, the objective of political science is "Controlling", and students who never get to learn Algebra (and other logic-based subjects) may grow dumber, and dumb people are easier to control
Do you know that they _ARE_ doing similar things in England?
In England, in some schools, students do not received grades, and they do not know how they fair inside their own class - because, according to those so-called "experts", they do not want to "hurt the feeling of those children who aren't doing well"
In other words, they _are_ doing everything they can to dumb down the future generations to the lowest common denominator
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
"If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics."
If you can't handle basic algebra, you're not really getting an education.
is in the teaching of algebra, not the need for it.
The TFA starts by complaining about how so many students fail the subject, but by the end is describing all sorts of scenarios where maths is a requirements. It would appear that the problem, then, is to find a better way of teaching the subject.
The best results that I have seen come when students can work together to explain stuff to each other, and where the maths is related back to real world problems. A student that has just grasped some concept is better able to explain it than someone for whom that concept is second nature. Some practical use can make the subject seem more real and can aid in the understanding - I never really understood matrices until I started doing some 3D graphics stuff - the classes never related them to anything solid - they were just an abstraction.
political science is: the study of politics, government, and state
What's the use of studying politics, government and state if it isn't related to finding better ways to "influence" (subjugate) the population?
Just like Zoology - it's a study of the animal kingdom - but what's the use of studying the animal kingdom if there isn't any step further - like improving / changing / experimenting on the animals (all the way to the genetic structures of the animals) ?
Political science is the study of politics, but the aim of political science is not only to understand, but to improve upon the process
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
My Uncle, and cousins run a very successful business with revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
Advanced math is used in business. I was shocked and pleasantly surprised by the scientific and mathematic techniques used in a New Product Development class, a marketing class, in business school. If business people were more proficient and more frequent users of such approaches the business world would probably be less screwed up.
In 20+ years of software development I have rarely used math beyond the most basic forms of algebra. Using your logic you could probably argue that computer science majors don't need to take much math. However having had the math doors were opened. When someone needed to write the 3D rendering library for a molecular visualization project I was able to step up and do so. When Dow Chemical asked my employer if we could move some legacy code from mainframe to PC I was able to step up and communicate with world class chemists about how their software analyzes a polymer structure. Did these chemists expect me to understand polymer chemistry, no, they just expected me to be scientifically and mathematically literate. We got the contract.
A buddy was a history major in college. In high school we both took the same college prep and AP math and science classes. Seems a waste for the history major huh? Except in the last month, and against all expectations we had back in the day, he has just advanced to candidacy for a PhD in economics and public policy. He specialty, the civilian space industry. He currently advices politicians on how not to screw up this nascent industry. So yes, in a **university** environment history and poly sci majors should be scientifically and mathematically literate too.
The preceding demonstrates why, in a **university** environment, people should be expected to take math and science classes that are not strictly necessary. The point of a **university** is to prepare you for these more advanced situations you never expected.
That said, I have worked with many highly skilled and talented programmers who were not university trained. I would be happy to work with many of them again. A university education is nice but not required.
As political science is about lying, twisting facts and truthiness math only stands in a way.
Hmm ... "Defective Thinking"
In what way "thinking" becomes "defective"?
At which juncture we can say "thinking" starts to be 'defective"?
And no, this are not trick questions --- I'm merely curious
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Not to burst your bubble but this guy teaches future politicians ...
No, he is a political science professor. The law professors teach the future politicians. The political science professors teach the entry level management trainees for various corporations.
I am not kidding. I once sat in on a presentation named "Careers for History and Political Science Majors". The presenter had a BA in History and was the branch manager at a local bank. The first thing he told the audience was that they were not going to work in history or politics. Many corporations want to see a 4 year degree attached to their management trainees, they don't particularly care what the degree is in.
If you can find a pattern, you can predict the future. If you can predict the future, you win. Most don't understand that algebra at its core is the mathematics for finding patterns. Sounds pretty useful to me.
what's the use of studying the animal kingdom if there isn't any step further - like improving / changing / experimenting on the animals
There are hundreds of thousands of people who spent many years studying biology and zoology to become veterinarians and, you know, help animals who will disagree with you.
The vast majority of people study history to learn from it, not to make it or rewrite it. The vast majority of people who study psychology don't do so because their plan is to control people and then force them into Cybermen suits. Not everything in life is a conspiracy to rule the world.
Seriously... Slashdot just gets crazier and crazier.
"95% of all Slashdot
"Political Scientist" is a colossal oxymoron.
Whatever this guy and Thomas Friedmann (and alas! Terry Pratchett) say, the world is not flat. Algebraic equations of degree higher than linear (and even - gasp - other than polynomials entirely) are needed to describe how it works. Algebra is the bare minimum to comprehend how functions work. It is telling that TFA doesn't even mention differential equations - the real basecode of the universe. A grounding in algebra provides the most basic of tools to understand graphical representations of a dynamic multivariate world, even without calculus.
That a political scientist would emphasize "lies, damn lies, and statistics" as the pinnacle of mathematics is unsurprising.
I didn't excel at math in high school and college because I thought "I'm never going to use this." Then live threw me a curve ball and I had an opportunity to buy a small business and get out of a dead end, miserable tech support job. Now I sorely wish I had tried harder at math because I have to do a considerable amount of it being an owner/operator of my little one man shop. A certain proficiency in math should be required for all majors because you never know where life will take you.
You have very little idea of what a banker is, do you? Or algebra for that matter?
Have you heard of interest? That's kind of what banks are all about. And it requires algebra.
Anyone else perturbed that a Political Science professor is the one who suggests this? What reason would those who study politics need to support removing algebra from any curriculum? Maybe it is so that the populous is dumbed-down and unable to reason properly for a candidate? But in truth, I do not know what this guy is talking about. I took the SAT a couple times (once in high school, once while in the service to try to improve my score), and the math section at the time was not even up to the level of algebra. So how is it that he, and others, believe that algebra is causing people to drop out of school? It is so easy to blame just one thing, and as we all grew up with the 'what will I use this for later in life' question, it is easy to blame mathematics. But in reality, kids drop out of school based on a combination of multiple issues. Drugs, bad parenting, learning disabilities, becoming pregnant, etc. Realistically, if there is a subject in schools that can be toned down, it would be English courses. Do we really need to study poetry in depth? Probably not. Besides, advanced math tends to be an elective, meaning those who aren't pursuing a degree in a STEM field typically do not need to take more of it. In other words, there are so many easily studied counters to his argument that it is almost funny.
The OP is not claiming that Algebra is useless in general. He's proposing that for non-analytical students, like fine arts students, the ever increasing Math requirements from Universities is filtering out people who would be perfectly capable of excelling in those degrees and in some ways would be better candidates for those degrees.
So therefore, I agree.
No political science is not necessary...for an engineer. A generalized class in American government and politics would be useful for the average citizen as would be survey classes that included basic practical real world algebra and geometry, consumer math, statistics, and basic logic.
Requiring a high school student to pass Algebra courses which include quadratic equations to get out high school is as ridiculous, as is requiring high school students to read chaucer. In other words students not going to college are either bored out of their minds or not prepared to do anything practical and with no useful skills.
Only 30% of adults have college degrees yet we require high school students to take courses like algebra mostly because they are college prep courses. The question is what are we preparing the other 70% for?
The truth of the matter is I can make a much stronger argument for the revival of vocational education than I can for either political science or algebra. Just because someone CAN go to college doesnt mean they WANT to but they dont see any other choice they can live with.
Job listings for HVAC companies often state that knowledge of algebra is necessary to be considered for hiring.
ii Merci beaucoup y mucho gracias !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Is Political Science necessary?
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Because not everything you learn should relate to business or your job after school.
Education should be about exposure to a lot more than just work. Opening your eyes to new experiences, new information and understandings of the universe and the humanity around you should be priority one.
I mean, I've never had the urge to shoot my best friend and save him from a lynch mob after he got into some trouble with the locals. So why should I have to read Of Mice and Men?
The problem isn't that school is hard and we should do away with math. It's that our culture doesn't emphasize knowledge and intelligence isn't respected. There's actually a wave of antiintellectualism that has major states of our nation considering removing key parts of cosmology, biology, geology, etc with NONSENSE.
I don't expect everyone to go into fields they don't want to. If you don't have the heart to go into the arts, then don't. If you were never exposed to the arts, then that means that's another potential artist lost.
Same with maths and sciences. We don't know. It shouldn't be this way, but that's the way it is.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
If you have no math, you have no basis to do science and prove anything with hard data and numbers.
So all that is left is public opinion and faith.
No effort no results....
It's too hard, I can't do it.
Prepare to look for the picture on the button, and say " would you like to super size that?"
Fat, stupid and ignorant is the future.
until the untimely early end.
What's the use of studying politics, government and state if it isn't related to finding better ways to "influence" (subjugate) the population?
Because the best defence for those who would be subjugated is to know the hows and whys of the would-be subjugators.
Just whose side are you really on, anyway?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
"If you want to understand the world, you need math. If your education doesn't include that, what sort of education is it?"
The answer is apparentely a political "science" education. Maybe religion education too. Now that I think about it that seems to explain a lot of things about our current political climate...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Yes, it is. But not in the way that it is usually taught. Mathematics is one of those fields that are more than vital, and yet we haven't figured out how to teach it properly. I'm talking about math, not doing calculations. We have pocket calculators and apps for that.
Math, including Algebra, isn't about being able to add 15+38 in your head, it's about understanding what the numbers mean when the evening news tell you something about crime rates or the economy.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
German was a subject in my school, I even passed it. When do I use it? Very rarely... except... the skill (rusted) is always there. I CAN work in Germany or with Germans. It broadens my potential to find work. Same with English, I am Dutch, why should I be able to speak English? Because English people can't be bothered to learn a second language, and English is a language understood my most people as a second language, it again broadens my potential to find work. Even in companies were the owner speaks English.
Math isn't there to do, it is there to know how to do it so that when you come across a problem you at least got a clue.
People can live very happy lives being unable to read or do basic math. But they are also incapable of advancing and become very vulnerable to being exploited.
It is like knowing how to perform CPR. When do you need it in your daily live? But in that 5 minute gap you MIGHT need it, it is the difference between life and death. I learned how to swim with my clothes, Holland is a country with a lot of water, so all kids used to learn it so they didn't drown if they fell in. I have NEVER fallen into the water in my entire life! Useless lesson then? I think not. About two years ago I saw a little kid on a bike get near a small canal with a not so steep incline loose control and just slide into the water. No real problem, lowered myself in, and pulled the kid out. It was very muddy and more half walk, half crawl swim BUT would I have done it if I never learned how to swim?
Maybe someone else would have pulled the kid out. Maybe the kid would have been fine on his own. Maybe.
Math is around us all the time and we use it all time. When calculating how much our shopping is going to be, how much cheaper item X is at store Y. It is simple stuff you do without thinking but you can only do because you were taught how to do it once, long ago.
School isn't about creating employees perfectly suited to just one task, it is to create well rounded individuals who can adapt to changing environments and demands. This includes being able to do basic math.
You don't even need to remember HOW to calculate the height of a tree. If you just remember that it can be done, you can always look it up.
But if you were never shown how to do it, it would remain a mystery to you if you ever needed to work on your house.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
being a vet is arguably all about controlling or improving. It is important for a vet to understand the nature and handling of animals in order to control and handle them in a safe manner and performing ventinary procedures on them is definitely improving them. changing and improving doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing.
Most political science majors go to academia or become journalists or something completely unrelated. If you were to survey your local senate / parliament / assembly / whatever, you would probably mostly find lawyers, some engineers, doctors, etc. among your representatives, but hardly any poli sci graduates.
Political science studies political systems it does not train future politicians. Being a politician is easy (all you need to do is make (un)informed decisions) and doesn't require any special training...
The American curriculum has been dumbed down to pass increasing numbers of ignorant minorities. Eventually we'll have a completely unqualified President who majored in Black Studies. Oh wait...
Yes, you'll have to wait (unless "we" refers to something other than the United States), as the United States doesn't currently have a president who majored in Black Studies.
Traditionally, mathematics classes goes from algebra, geometry, trig/precalc to calc, with varying levels of those classes in between. Most schools fail to even squeeze an elective class or semester of discrete mathematics, which helps tremendously.
Colleges/Universities are in big trouble, they need the bodies. Kids coming up can't cut it, so lower the standards. They cannot read either, and have the attention span of a fruit fly. 20 something gets on your nerves? Look em square in the eye and ask "what is nine times seven?" They will blink twice and stare at you. To reach them, communicate that none from their generation knows this, a legacy of the changes in education. It is not their fault. They are not stupid, it was not required.
My Uncle, and cousins run a very successful business with revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars. My cousin is dyslexic and has terrible trouble reading and doing mathematics, but he's sitting pretty on a pile of cash
That just goes to show how cash is distributed so unfairly in our current society.
The fact that your uncle and cousins are so rich without knowing anything means they are parasites. They control a great amount of resources which they are unable to use in an efficient way, because of their ignorance. They are probably good only at manipulating other people.
It shouldn't be like this. I cringe every time I see an elected politician or a successful business leader boasting that he doesn't know math.
That's the reason why public debt is in the trillions range. That's why there are people who believe they can spend their way out of debt. Ignorance at math is evil.
People who don't know math shouldn't control anything more complex than some basic gardening tools or something like that, they should be limited by law to the simplest and lowest paying jobs.
It is the success of rigor in mathematics that has pushed for rigor to be part of other subjects. Historians are held to a higher standard than just repeating gossip because of the example set by algebra. Biology advances because of the confidence in inference we gain from understanding algebra. If all we knew is that one and one is two, we'd merely reproduce, and the world would be less wonderful.
“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is mathematics, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel mathematics around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjnbIF1yAA
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
I agree the traditional math high school/college math curriculum isn't very worthwhile any more, if it ever was. Just as one example, you'll never use Euclidean geometry again (except the most basic parts that only take a couple of weeks of the standard course), whether or not you continue to more advanced math. Even engineers rarely if ever use the many dry and specialized "advanced integration techniques" that are taught to everyone in calculus.
However, I would revamp high school/college math rather than discard it. There is plenty of valuable and relevant math (e.g., statistics, logic with application to critiquing claims made in the media) that could be taught today instead of a lot of the more abstruse parts of algebra/geometry.
FWIW, when I taught calculus to english majors in grad school, I chose one day a week to teach other areas on general interest in mathematics, which seemed to work pretty well. My students performed equally on the calculus final to the other sections, but many more of them signed up to take additional math courses than in the other sections.
Who the hell takes algebra in a college/university? I agree, it's a waste of higher education $s because people should have learned it in HS! I'm pretty sure I was taking pre-algebra in Jr. High and went into Algebra 1 as a first year HS student.
Necessary? Absolutely! I think pre-algebra was where the concept of a variable was taught. That alone is rather essential knowledge. Having a basic understanding of functions y = f(x) is incredibly useful. You don't need to be solving equations on a daily basis to make use of the concept that one variable is specified as a function of one or more other variables.
Where do they find these erudite idiots?
If we're going to question what's "necessary", let's consider
Poetry/Literature
Creative writing
Ethnic studies
Feminist studies
Athletics
Art
Music
Seriously... Slashdot just gets crazier and crazier.
Amen...
Don't quote me on this.
Algebra is needed far more than political science (an oxymoron if there ever was one).
English lit prof asks "is General Relativity really necessary?"
Chemistry prof asks "is studying a foreign language really necessary?"
Math prof asks "are supply/demand curves really necessary?"
Having done the whole CS and math thing, I have to say that most of the math in everyday usage was pretty useless. I suppose if you got a scientific or hardcore CS job, you might use it some, but for the most part a normal IT job doesn't need it (nor does most of it lend itself to a better understanding of CS really). Binary Algebra and a few other exceptions which are more less directly associated with CS, and were taught by CS profs, not math profs really.
Courses such as calculus, and linear algebra and the like weren't all that useful after. I think one mathematics course everyone should get however is a basic understanding of statistics. Oddly enough I think that would make the world a better place (if a bit more boring perhaps).
That is exactly the problem with our university system in the U.S. and evidently other countries as well.
I agree with what you say about university - at that level you should be allowed to focus on a single subject without distractions which, generally, is exactly what happens in the UK (or at least used to). However what I was talking about was at school. O' levels were exams taken at the age of 16 in secondary school. I think that it is entirely appropriate that education at this level should be a lot broader because you need to have a grounding in many subjects if for no other reason than to be able to decide which ones you like.
So I would argue that doing calculus and Shakespeare (and more besides) up to 16 is a good thing and the argument that things like simple calculus are too hard for someone going on to study for an English degree is just wrong. For years the British system used to require it and it worked extremely well. Now standards have fallen considerably - even when I was at school you could see that previous years' exam papers were noticeably more challenging than ours - and calculus us no longer required of all university candidates although they all still have to study Shakespeare!
It is called a "well rounded education". The local university rounded a few corners off of my wallet.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
So what if 99.5% of jobs never use algebra. There is more to life than working and money. I have always wanted to know things whether it was free or cost a MIT tuition. And want to to associate with like-minded people.
And I was disappointed that nobody would teach me algebra until 8th grade. They made me wait years because it was apparently an unreasonable burden on the education system, even though the 'tards got one-on-one with specialized teachers all day, every day.
I don't understand why we don't allow students to specialize at least some of their education to their own proclivities, and I certainly don't understand why we all have to do everything in lockstep.
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house." --Robert Heinlein
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Efforts to de-emphasize curricula that help develop a capacity for critical reasoning in the subject population is to be expected. Rulers want compliant subjects, not critical ones.
The attack on critical reasoning skills has a long, well-documented history. For a milenia, the Roman Catholic church made sure that relatively few people learned to read, and exerted serious effort to make sure that those who did learn to read were either in the Church already, or were members of the elite with a track record for supporting the Church. When technology (the printing press) bypassed the Church's chokehold on knowledge, the Church ruthlessly suppressed knowledge that was deemed inimical to the Church's interests. The modern neo-Conservative movement in the US adopted pretty much the same strategy, but shifted targets slightly. Instead of targeting reading, they went after something a bit deeper -- critical reasoning skills. The neoCon strategy ultimately resulted in the passage of NCLB in 2001, virtually guaranteeing that the vast majority of the next generation of US voters would be denied access to an education that included training in critical reasoning skills.
The first rule of power is "hold on to it." In a democracy, the corollary would be "get re-elected." For the neoCons, dumbing down the next generation of voters was a good strategy for a political movement with an agenda that anyone with even minimal critical reasoning skills would reject out of hand. Now we have a political scientist whose politics were relentlessly skewered in Allison Lurie's culture war classic "The War Between the Tates" and whose long time domestic partner flunked basic geometry four times advocating a position that lines up with the current NeoCon strategy to dumb American voters down. And if you need further evidence of Hacker's agenda, his appearance on the Colbert Report should be all you need.
Read TFA and I find it's argumentation is embarrasingly weak. Here's a summary:
1) Mathematics causes high dropout rate in the US
The author goes on a tirade some 6 paragraphs long about how math is that no.1 subject that causes people to fail high school. Great. So what? Suppose we cut math. Then the no.1 drop out subject will be Chemistry (or whatever). Will we continue cutting subjects until we have none that cause students to drop out of schools?
2) Low drop out rate in other countries does not matter
In the next paragraph the author addresses the fact that in other countries people don't drop out because of math at such a high rate without sacrificing content. His answer is - it doesn't matter. Not in these precise words, but seriously - look it up in the article for yourself.
3) Math we learn has no relationship to the kind of reasoning we need at work
Interesting argument. So what is the proof for that claim? Well, some psychologist said it. Great. Some other psychologist said the contrary.
4) A mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above
Again, so what? How many entry-level workers will need to be proficient with history, english literature, chemistry or geography? How about when they will want to move on beyond the entry-level? How did you get that number anyway?
5) There's no evidence that learning math makes you a better thinker
Or in his words - " there’s no evidence that being able to prove (x + y) = (x - y) + (2xy) leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis." (no actual citations of studies how math helps or doesn't help thinking are provided). Oh my, this is so wrong! How would you measure the 'credibility of political opinions'? Why would you even want to measure it. Just because your political opinion is credible it does not have to be good! This where I should invoke the Goodwin law and be justified in it!
6)The doctors and veterinarians don't need math
This is getting silly. Would you have the educational system only teach the lowest common denominator for all jobs? What would it be? Basic English?
That's it for his arguments. Now what about all the arguments he didn't address:
1) Math teaches rigorous thinking. And it's probably the simplest tool to do so - it's very easy to verify and (on a High-School level) it's indisputable.
2) Math teaches to follow procedure - again - it's a very effective tool for that
3) Math trains you in critical thinking - teaches you to look for proofs in a controlled environment where proofs exist.
None of these arguments is properly examined in the article as the author fails to proceed (1) through critical examination (3) in a rigorous way (2).
Algebra forms the basis for mathematical reasoning. How can you problem solve if you do not know how algebra works? The real problem is how math is taught. It is designed for teachers to teach to a test and formula, not designed for the student to immerse himself in fascination. So once again the problem is the teacher, not the student. Get rid of public education. Love this "It could, for example, teach students how the Consumer Price Index is computed, what is included and how each item in the index is weighted — and include discussion about which items should be included and what weights they should be given. " Really??? Then more Americans would understand how their government is lying about inflation. Understanding that and exponential growth would start a revolution.
Algebra may be what separates the Morlocks from the Eloi.
In the comments on the article itself, someone pointed out that the admittedly difficult leap from arithmetic to algebra is the step from concrete to abstract thinking, and that we really do want as many people as possible to make that leap. It's more generally important than the math ability.
WALSTIB!
I've recently been working with someone who is struggling with math and starting to learn some algebra. After a lot of work the kid seems to do ok picking up on the idea of letters representing numbers and manipulating those to solve simple problems. Similarly after a lot of work he can work with fractions. But getting to the point of using fractions and variables together is proving an extra challenge.
The fact is that most of use, once we graduate from school, never sit down and solve problems using the most difficult math we learned in school. But learning that highest math has other benefits.
1. I never find myself integrating, but I understand that concept which helps me understand the news, trends in behavior and stocks, and other phenomena because I have a feel for how these things work together.
2. I used calculus to learn physics. This reinforced the things I learned in calculus. It also made me capable of understanding trends in computer hardware.
3. As a computer guy, I use big-O concepts frequently. I couldn't have learned those without algebra. I wouldn't understand big-O concepts intuitively if I hadn't done the calculus and physics.
Even if a kid isn't going into a technical field, learning calculus will be useful, but it isn't required. And if he's not going on to do calculus, much of algebra won't be terribly useful.
But some algebra is still necessary. People need to know that symbolic logic exists. People need to understand the concept of functions. While solving a quadratic equation is something they're likely never going to use, learning to do so will reinforce concepts like fractions and variable substitution.
I can see letting kids graduate from high school without algebra. But if a college degree is to mean anything it should include at least a semester of algebra. I'm not sure it even makes sense to recruit students to a college if they haven't taken algebra.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who spent many years studying biology and zoology to become veterinarians and, you know, help animals who will disagree with you.
Hmmm ... I'm guessing that most of those veterinarians also help animals that agree with me.
After all, they mostly don't even know me, so how could they base their actions on whether or not a given animal agrees with me or not?
(Weren't we just talking about the usefulness of mathematics for teaching basic logic? ;-)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
It ain't slashdot that's getting crazier. It's just that we get to read more people's minds to see just how fucked up they are to begin with.
Because he can't figure out, since he doesn't know or want to know algebra, if two packages of meat (pkg x & pkg x+.25_ and a box of Brand A cereal is more than than a larger package of meat (pkg 2x) and a box of brand B cereal.
And there's a pro-home schooling op-ed in the WSJ.
Is there an attack on public education? Nahhhh.... and if you aren't currently online, and can study that way, then you and your kids don't deserve an education.
mark
There are hundreds of thousands of people who spent many years studying biology and zoology to become veterinarians and, you know, help animals who will disagree with you.
What animals dare to disagree with me? The roast chicken I ate last night disagreed with me, but at that point I think it was beyond help.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
I think the current educational system is in shambles due to the fact they try to shove education down children's throats without realizing they are ever increasingly creating generations of kids (and eventually adults) that do not want to learn and explore for themselves.
I agree that forms of mathematics and other subject matter are completely unnecessary at early levels of school. Why force a child to learn something boring and unusable in the real world, only to have them score low on a test and be deemed unfit for higher forms of education, with the social stigmatism that poor grades usually are associated with.
Instead these subjects should be introduced when a student enters an vocational path that will eventually lead to a career that would require those skills. I mean, you would never teach a child how to do brain surgery if they are never intending to become a medical doctor. Why teach a high school student Calculus or Algebra when there is a high chance they will never use those math skills in the future. Why introduce an opportunity for a student to fail by teaching them something they might hate?
But, you may say, what if you don't introduce a student to some subject mater early enough; they may never want to BE a doctor, even if most don't intend to become a doctor. So instead you cram hundreds of hours of biology, chemistry, math and science classes and thousands of hours of homework, to make them WANT to become a doctor? That idea is ridiculous, but unfortunately is the truth behind of our current education system.
What SHOULD happen at the elementary and secondary level's of education is to teach a child HOW TO LEARN, rather then forcing them to learn specific subject matter. At the end of high school, you should have learned enough life skills to be a successful adult, which means a solid understanding that most forms of jobs that pay well require additional education, so a student would aim to continue down a path for higher education, and enjoy it. However by learning skills that involve self discovery and exploration of knowledge a person with a high school education should also be just as prepared for success in other ventures.that do not necessarily require a degree or diploma.
The biggest thing I took out of leaving university and taking a job was finally LEARNING how to LEARN. It sounds crazy but when you switch from an education system where you are lectured to and tested against subject mater to a reality where you explore and learn content on your own, at your own pace, for stuff you love and are keenly interested in, this was one of the most profound transitions I experienced in my life.
Most adults are so profoundly sick and tired of learning and being tested that by the time they are done any level of school they have "peaked" intellectually and refuse to learn more.
I believe changing education to focusing on when and how to learn instead of worrying about what to learn will change the way people view education, and instead build a foundation for life-long commitment to learning and growing rather then a life of peaking and settling for a career they hate.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I have recently helped someone through the current maths requirements in the UK to keystage 2 and the ENDLESS counting of monkeys and bananas drove this intelligent child to absolute distraction. Teach proper maths, teach it properly, teach it confidently and it doesn't have to be a "stumbling block." And make a new subject for "life skills" which can include all that other confusing stuff which doesn't belong in trying to get a child or anyone to be confident with mathematics. Seriously.
Love without logic is insanity. And vice versa.
Math and logic comprise a bullshit filter that is quite useful in everyday life, from realization that $994.99 plus tax is way over $1K, to ability to filter out general BS statements such as "spend more to save more", "15 minutes on the phone can save you 15% or more on your car insurance" etc. You need them to figure out that you'll pay double on your mortgage, and that "buy a car, get a baseball cap for free!" is not such a sweet deal. Also, you'll need it to realize that the TFA is bullshit.
The problem with algebra is that it is, in the US, often taught so badly. Read Liping Ma on how math in the US is taught differently from every other country. In other countries the teachers focus on ideas, the US, all too often, on rote memorization. "Don't ask why, just invert and multiply," was one teacher's slogan. A survey of textbooks by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics found that of all the textbooks used in the US, the only one they gave a passing grade to was a translation of a textbook used in Singapore. As a government study of several years back concluded, the US is committing unilaterial intellectual disarmament.
NO!!!!!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
Some people are just not suited to Mathematics at all and find themselves completely incapable of doing it. I think that for those it would be better to have a Mathematics Appreciation subject, like Art Appreciation. Such a subject would give people an understanding about why many people love it and why it is so important and perhaps a taste of its beauty. And you never know, maybe it will act as an incentive for some to learn more themselves, people are much better at learning when they are motivated.
Bitter and proud of it.
We teach math, science, history, language, etc to all students, and in so doing the strengths of each student will be uncovered. Is there any other way to determine what a student's good at without first teaching it to him?
Wcheapjerseys.com offers you varieties of high-quality wholesale cheap jerseys, including wholesale cheap nba jerseys, wholesale cheap nfl jerseys, wholesale cheap mlb jerseys and wholesale cheap nhl jerseys. You can find the most famous players and the hottest teams’ wholesale cheap jersey here. All is sold at a very cheap price. Having been doing online business for several years, we know fans well that we always supply the high quality yet cheap wholesale jerseys. All the numbers and names and team badges are exquisitely sewn on, making the jerseys you received are of very expensive one, though sold at a cheap price. We also offer the expert customer service and fast shipping service. Even you buy one item, you get a wholesale price. But if you buy enough quantities, you get a best price.
Since when does a poly sci dork count in anything ???? Poly Sci, one level below Liberal Arts in the academic evolutionary scale.
...or just a self-serving idiot?
are you kidding? algebra is hugely useful for every day life. trig, maybe people could live without. heck, if you don't know arithmetic you might be able to survive with a calculator. but most of "teaching algebra" consists of getting kids to recognize that they kind of know how to do the stuff from their daily lives and to formalize it so they can do it when it's not intuitively obvious.
I'd also make the argument that you need to understand at least the fundamental ideas behind calculus to be educated, but that doesn't cover the entire population.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
The author is half right; which makes his argument compleatly wrong.
The way Algebra is taught is just dreadful; it's as if educators have intentionally sought to obfuscate what algebra IS.
BUT, if you want to help kids learn, teach them about MORE facets of a subject; DO NOT water-down the subject and reduce it to total fragmentation and abstraction, and stop passing off bits and pieces of it as the actual subject.
Teach the HISTORY of Algebra, along side with the proofs and theorems. Show students how it is related to Philosophy, how philosophy is related to Reason. Teach the connections.
This, as opposed to advocating for people to grow increasingly ignorant and micro-specialized to the point that you can no longer teach them anything at all, because you've conned them into thinking that they actually have any grasp of a subject they are woefully ignorant of all but a tiny fragmented abstraction.
And yeah, it takes more resources to properly educate people by actually making the subject matter interesting and enlightening. But I'd argue, if you're an educator, and you can not or do not already do this, you need to get another job - because you suck at what you're doing now.
And a word of advice, if you can make a subject more interesting to yourself by simply fucking around on google and searching related terms in wiki, YOU need to be more proactive in your own education, and avoid at all costs educators that are just plain incompetent and lazy, as well as people like the author of the aforementioned article.
I have yet to meet one that wasn't a fucktard, and I am yet to met a Poly-Sci major that wasn't a waste of space.
I rate them a notch lower than an MBA.
The American standardized testing is severely infected with political correctness, in the sense it's intelligence testing more than academic testing. But, the International Baccalaureate Organization (IBO) has a traditional "grammar school" curriculum that is uniform across the world. The IB Diploma matches nearly exactly to the Abitur/matura grades, which are national standards for matriculation examinations in many European countries. IB is slightly more demanding than the U.S. high school programme. There are over 1100 public IB programmes in the United States.
Political science majors can't hack it! I'm not surprised by this professors article. But political science courses were the easy classes in college. And individuals were taking these classes instead of advanced math and science electives, for the sake of a higher GPA. Math, science and engineering careers are what drive inovation! But as for political science degrees, this is a pathetic and undeserving degree designation. Of all degrees this one is the most useless one Mr. Hack needs to stay with what he teaches POLITICS, Not Mathematics!
I'm retired and I still use math every day. Algebra is about as basic as you can get. If they can't handle that, they probably aren't college material anyway. We could probably eliminate about half the students going to college and the useless degrees. They would have money left, would not be a drag on society, and we could probably eliminate about 2/3rds of needless student loans. There are a lot of students going to college who are not suited for college, nor do they need a 4 year degree.
I understand that some people never get it and it can seem useless but even if they only manage to pick up a little it will help them better understand abstract thinking and how to solve problems. Given what poor standards we set for the arguments made by the people we listen to (politicians, pundits, friends, family) the level of mathematics required in school should only be increased or at the very least supplemented with more various branches.
Am I the only one who agrees here? At least in that I was a kid that could never grok algebra in grade school, and dropped out of college because of it. I was convinced by school teachers and pears that I was just a math moron with no hope. It wasn't until I started getting tasked with some mathematically intensive software engineering projects, that others couldn't pull off, that I realized all I needed to fully understand the HOWS of math was to have a real world WHY scenario. Not understanding algebra as taught in school forced me to adapt and become a better 'learner' that can assimilate new things more quickly than most of the people I encounter with degrees. Turns out I'm a natural with a lot of advanced mathematics, I just couldn't wrap my brain around it without understanding the applications for the problems. I think we focus too much on teaching kids how to solve every potential problem under the sun, and they never get the more fundamental and simpler 'eureka' type stuff that it all branches from. The feeling of grokking it vs the feeling of being rewarded for remembering rules. But we don't teach kids how to learn new things on their own when faced with an ambiguous problem, we just reward their memorization skills. We have access to virtually the entire collective of human knowledge, I think learning to navigate that effectively and being able to learn concepts on demand is a greater skill than memorizing. But obviously there's a lot of bright people that did great learning the traditional way too. So what do I know, ha. Just that I get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I solve a complex math problem now, instead of the dread and fear school gave me over it all.
"It seems that when people become desperate they consult the gods, and when the gods become desperate they tell lies." -
In the "The Relation of Mathematics to Physics" (second part of "The Character of Physical Law") Saint R. Feynman marvelously establishes the irreducible relevancy of the known interrelations between abstractions (known as math) to any scientific endeavor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd0xTfdt6qw
While the map is not the territory, mapping is a territory in and of itself.
Regardless of the notation, or the map, or the math one uses. Doing away with a good map will leave us in the dark, unless our new map is at least as concise and effective.
Having said that, there is a lot to be said for refining our ways of equipping young students with a proper abstractions tool-set, so in the near and bright future we may avoid such blunders of poor abstraction being attributed to a Prof.
BTW, What was that science you said he was practicing?
It is the only subject which was created 100% by humans.
I know I'm nitpicking a bit here, but people discover knowledge.
vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
Any occupation is a fight against entropy of some sort.... the OP is really talking about doing things for the good of society.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Some may be good with basing decisions on things that may not seem mathematical in nature. The reality is, they often times are. We deduce things regularly. We probably all hated word problems at one time or another. However, we had to think algebraically in regards to how different parts of those problems related to each other, and then line them up accordingly to see the absolutes and come up with a solution. Then if there were unknown variables, we cloud look to see how the other absolutes would produce a consistency with the other parts of the equation, and thus, solve the problem. Math is about problem solving skills. To say this is extraneous and unnecessary and baffling at the least...appalling. Again, we hear the cry to make this easier, cause things are too hard. Let's be lazier, stop solving problems or developing skills that will help us solve 'em. That's the solution. OMG. I'm sure this is too much for political science people, cause political science is an oxymoron, and has little to do with logic at all if what we see in our government is what we get. Keep political science majors in the trenches. We should force even more smarts on 'em than the get already. They're bad enough as it is.
College is about providing proof that you have the ability to excel in general studies at a higher level, the highest level. Computer Science is a Science Degree and therefore requires the basic corner stone of a Bachelors of Science degree... and that's Math. What your looking for is a "degree" or certifications in a specialty, vocation or whatever your trade of choice is. You didn't say anything about teaching or obtaining a Masters which demonstrates the highest caliber of ability. Ability that is peer reviewed by the best currently living in your culture and maybe the even the world. If you dont want to qualify for these things then you dont want a Computer Science degree.