Sweden Is Closing Many Prisons Due to Lack of Prisoners

rtoz writes "Sweden is taking steps to close many prisons due to lack of prisoners. This year alone, four prisons and a detention center got closed in Sweden. The percentage of the population in Sweden prison is significantly lower than in most other countries. ... Though the Swedish Government is taking steps to close the prisons, the crime rate in Sweden has increased slightly. It seems they are planning to take steps for preventing crime rather than focusing on jailing people involved in criminal activities."

Comments

can they

[Anonymous Coward]

be outsourced? This is EXACTLY what USA need.

Re:can they

[teg]

be outsourced? This is EXACTLY what USA need.

Not likely an attractive option:

• Sweden is a rather expensive country - the standard of living, cost level etc. are higher than in the US
• Sweden focuses on treatment to avoid relapse into crime, rather than punishment for its own sake. Thus, the prisoners would be treated far too well for US' tastes.
• I'm sure Sweden would like to avoid any chance of US criminals ending up living in Sweden afterwards...

Re:can they

[GaryWheatley]

The point of outsourcing is to save up on cost; the point of prison is to discourage the occurrence of crime. I hear the prisons in Bangladesh could be convinced, at a much cheaper amount, to hold a few more Americans despite them being overcrowded. I know some of you may argue about prison being a place to rehabilitate offenders and I agree with you there. Just send the rapists and the mass murderers to rot in the crowded tropical jails in that case.

Re:can they

[rvw]

be outsourced? This is EXACTLY what USA need.

Of course. I heard the CIA has done this before, so the experience is right there.

Another option would be prison by proxy. This is already happening, coincidentally with Sweden. Of of the US biggest thugs is now effectively under house arrest in London because of an extradition treaty with the US. The recepy is simple: threaten with the possibility of serving lifetime, and then let them escape to an embassy with only limited space.

Re:can they

[dbIII]

The problem of the US prisons is pretty well exactly that of England before the American Revolution - private prisons that make a profit out of a government that they ask, with inducements, to send a lot of people their way for minor crimes. The only real difference is the US taxpayer is supplying the profits instead of the prisoners paying a lot of it.

Re:can they

[dbIII]

When you grow up things should be a little more clear to you. If not your education has failed you.

Re:can they

[jythie]

Sad thing is the whole 'treatment over punishment' thing was originally an American system that other countries copied because it was working fairly well, but then the US abandoned it favor of righteous suffering.

Re:can they

[minchazo]

I'm sure Sweden would like to avoid any chance of US criminals ending up living in Sweden afterwards...

Bull. This is the WHOLE POINT of "avoiding relapse into crime." Once they're out of prison, they're welcomed back into society.

Re: can they

[jythie]

No, you are not. That myth exists mostly on TV and internet forums. In the real world rape trials are notoriously difficult to prosecute with an extremely high chance of failure... in no small part due to these myths and juries believing them.

Re:can they

[dj245]

The problem of the US prisons is pretty well exactly that of England before the American Revolution - private prisons that make a profit out of a government that they ask, with inducements, to send a lot of people their way for minor crimes. The only real difference is the US taxpayer is supplying the profits instead of the prisoners paying a lot of it.

This is a problem, but the bigger problem is that the US system is focused on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Rather than trying to bring these people back into society and make them productive and upstanding citizens, we push them to the margins. We make finding a job after prison exceedingly difficult and only the most menial and low-class jobs will accept former criminals. We strip citizens of the right to vote, which devalues them. We have very lengthy sentences (To punish those evildoers!) for fairly harmless crimes, which is devastating to families and pushes people into poverty needlessly. Depending on the crime, we put them on lists and track them for life which makes their post-prison lives difficult.

Sweden, on the other hand, focuses on bringing people who have strayed from the path back into society. Their methods work. However, if anyone in the US wants to employ their methods, they are seen as "soft on crime" at worst. At best, they can't get the funding needed to enact meaningful rehabilitation programs. It is far cheaper (in the short term) and easier to put people in cages compared to education and rehabilitation.

Re:can they

[Anonymous Coward]

Just do like Sweden did and make crime legal for minorities and our prisons will run empty pretty fast too.

There are literally signs in third world countries inducing young men to move to Sweden because they can rape the women there without consequence. This is largely true.

Re: can they

[amRadioHed]

Isn't it more likely prosecution is difficult because there is frequently no evidence and no eyewitnesses, just one persons word against another? In those circumstances it *should* be hard to get a conviction.

Re:can they

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? They import Somalis by the thousands. The way many of them are acting, and considering you have no way to verify they weren't raging criminals in Somalia, reformed American prisoners cant be any worse. Sweden is the rape capitol of Europe now you know.

Re:can they

[operagost]

The "Wars" on drugs and poverty assured that.

Re:can they

[jythie]

Eh, it was before that even. One thing the Quakers learned the hard way is that once they allowed other faiths to immigrate and vote they were pushed out of office in favor of candidates that were more willing to give the voters blood.

Re:can they

[TheRaven64]

They may not still be criminals, but there's a pretty high chance that they'll still be Americans...

Re:can they

[kilodelta]

If you really want to trace back the punishment versus rehabilitation argument you have to go all the way back to John Calvin and his contemporaries.

In my opinion it makes ZERO sense to warehouse people for what are largely petty crimes and to punish them with meager conditions, etc. Without rehabilitation the recidivism rate rises too.

Re:can they

[StikyPad]

When was this?

Re:can they

[freezin fat guy]

+1 my friend.

People don't feel the need to commit crimes since they are already living in the prison of universal health care.

Re:can they

[Urza9814]

No, the thieves and those who advocate stealing from people who are productive in order to "redistribute the wealth" are the ones who belong in prison.

So....politicians and CEOs then, right? :)

Re:can they

[AthanasiusKircher]

When was this?

Well, it never really worked in the U.S. You can read about the various attempts at prison reform in the U.S. over the centuries here.

Basically, from the late 1700s through at least much of the 1800s, the U.S. had a number of trends in prison structure and style that were intended to "reform" or "rehabilitate" inmates, rather than just to punish them. We can see this in the names of institutions and departments that predate the modern trend toward euphemisms: "reformatory" (where you were "reformed), "penitentiary" (where you learn penitence and experience personal guilt for what you did), "Department of Corrections" or "correctional facilities" (where your deviant behavior or defects are corrected), etc.

Basically, all of this was a reaction to the idea of public punishments -- often fairly horrific -- that tended to be the norm in the 1700s and earlier.

However, all of the attempts at prison reform tended to go in other extremes, which often weren't effective either -- and sometimes made inmates worse. For example, the early "penitentiary" system in U.S. was based on the idea that prisoners would live in complete isolation, only interacting with guards when masked. Guards would never talk to them, and even in some cases would wear cloth on their shoes so prisoners would never even be aware of their presence. The idea was supposedly that the prisoner in complete isolation would be forced to contemplate his crimes (without any other contact with anything else), and thereby gradually realize the error of his ways.

Of course, putting human beings in complete isolation for years often tends to drive them to forms of insanity. So, this system often failed.

There was a parade of other types of reforms, all generally well-meaning, and attempting to put an end to corporal punishment. But the reality was that they often made prisoners suffer severe psychological damage in other ways, and in many cases the guards would still beat and abused them anyway....

Eventually, you also had the segregation of "insane" criminals from the rest, which led to further attempts at "curing" those who had "mental defects," in extreme cases resulting in surgeries and other craziness.

So, I'm not really sure about what the GP is talking about, except that there was a general trend toward (supposedly) non-violent punishment beginning soon after the American Revolution in the U.S. And a lot of reformers wanted to find ways to "fix" prisoners, rather than just punishing them.

In practice, I'm not sure any of those systems ever really worked well. But the ideas were influential in other countries.

Re:can they

[micahraleigh]

You mean deterence?

Re:can they

[StikyPad]

Thanks for your reply. It's ironic that other countries took our idea and ran with it, although I can think of plenty of ideas we took from other countries and further developed. Mainly commerce practices and war technologies though. ;)

Re: can they

[almechist]

Isn't it more likely prosecution is difficult because there is frequently no evidence and no eyewitnesses, just one persons word against another? In those circumstances it *should* be hard to get a conviction.

I absolutely agree, it should be hard, but prosecutors all over the US have proven that with the right kind of defendant it's not that hard at all to get a conviction based on nothing but the word of a single other person. You'd be amazed at how many black men are doing hard time for murder and other crimes based solely on the testimony of a single, often extremely unreliable eyewitness. Reading about some of these cases is scary, how utterly easy it is to wind up behind bars once the state has decided that's where you belong, and this can be especially true for heinous crimes like murder or rape.

Re:can they

[doccus]

Problem hee is that everybody's forgotten what prisons were for. Not rehabilitation. That can be accomplished better and cheaper other ways. Renmember how much the US spends per prisoner. much more per person than welfare payments. In fact if they used that money for that instead, then onlky hardened criminals, Besides, sending someone to crime school isn't ther best rehab anyways. Well, the, Punishment? Or protecting society? The US model is based on punishment, with only a token nod to "protecting society". There's way better ways to punish criminals though, and if the prisons were used exclusively to protect society, we could tear the other half of them down. This is, in fact what they were originally for. To keep them away from society for safety's sake. The US model is based on punishment though, and creates a revolving door because of poorly drafted laws and kneejerk reactionismn on "getting tough on crime". Making more acts criminal isn't "getting tough on crime" however, but rather the opposite, and anyone who believes that has absolutely no education or understanding at all . Whatever. It's too late anyways. You make your bed you have to sleep in it.

Re: can they

[GoogleShill]

Tell that to a guy I know who is doing 6-to-life for fingering a flirty, but drunk girl at a party. In all probability, he turned into an asshole towards her afterwards because she wouldn't to sleep with him, so she wanted revenge and called the cops. Thinking that what he did was was fairly innocent, he admitted to what transpired.... Case closed as far as the prosecution goes.

Even if he gets out, which he probably will at some point, he will be on lifetime parole, will have the penalty of returning to prison for even as much as having a drink, must sign up on the sex-offender list and knock on neighbor's doors to tell them he's been convicted of sexual assault... For the rest of his life.

Re:can they

[Ol Olsoc]

Sad thing is the whole 'treatment over punishment' thing was originally an American system that other countries copied because it was working fairly well, but then the US abandoned it favor of righteous suffering.

Because it was found that running prisons for profit was a fine free market idea.

The only problem of course, is that for profit institutions must service the stockholders. This means that there must be an increase in profit every quarter.

This means that you have to regularly find ways to put more people in prison.

The amazing thing is that what I wrote is completely batshit insane, that there is a model that demands more people be declared criminals in order to service a company.

Insane, yes, but here is just one example:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/index.html?_s=PM:CRIME

These fine upstanding Judges recieved kickbacks fro sending as many young people to juvie as possible, for crimes that would have normally ended up with a warning, or at worst some public service.

Re:can they

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad thing is the whole 'treatment over punishment' thing was originally an American system that other countries copied because it was working fairly well, but then the US abandoned it favor of instiutionalized homosexual rape.

There, fixed that for you.

You're right, having been there. I watched 9 other guys in another cell hold down an 18 year old while each took their turn. You could tell it was the first time for some, but if they didn't go along they would have been next. Most of them were into it and were there for violent offenses drunkeness in public, drugs; the two running the show,, one of which was in on manslaughter charges.

The guard was a friend of one of them and helped to set up the conditions by having his trustee transfer the 18 year old shoplifter to their cell. (I was charged for trespassing on a university campus due to not being a student). A couple of days later he committed suicide. The two guys (weightlifters) laughingly bragged about what happened and celebrated by going hardcore gay in front of everyone else.

Re: can they

[dbIII]

Readers, take these "friend of a guy I met somewhere" urban myths with a truckload of salt. Even that guy that kept those girls locked up for years would try that "they was asking for it" thing if he could have gotten away with it.

Re: can they

[GoogleShill]

Readers, take these "I don't believe true stories because they don't fit with my own preconceptions of the world" responses with a grain of salt. As we all know, the holocaust never happened either, right?

Things like this happen all the time, if you choose not to believe it, then that's your problem.

Re: can they

[dbIII]

Zero to Godwin in three seconds! We both know that shows you have nothing, give it up and let the grown ups discuss these things without your high school virgin stories about how girls are scary.

Re:can they

[LWATCDR]

Sweden's culture is also a good part of it. Over 3/4s of the population is Swedish. I mean Swedish going back centuries. The largest immigrant community is Finnish. A stable cultural base tends to make for among other things less crime. You can even see it in US. Areas with long term stable populations tend to have lower rates of crime. North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire all have very low rates of crime per population.
This is not even about immigrants from other counties but move-ins from other states. You will find that on the whole crime is lower and education is better in the states where people do not tend to move in a lot or move out a lot. It would seem that a common sense of community identity reduces social problems.
The problem is you can not really just create that.

Re:can they

[Wycliffe]

Problem hee is that everybody's forgotten what prisons were for. Not rehabilitation. That can be accomplished better and cheaper other ways. Renmember how much the US spends per prisoner. much more per person than welfare payments. In fact if they used that money for that instead, then onlky hardened criminals, Besides, sending someone to crime school isn't ther best rehab anyways. Well, the, Punishment? Or protecting society? The US model is based on punishment, with only a token nod to "protecting society". There's way better ways to punish criminals though, and if the prisons were used exclusively to protect society, we could tear the other half of them down. This is, in fact what they were originally for. To keep them away from society for safety's sake. The US model is based on punishment though, and creates a revolving door because of poorly drafted laws and kneejerk reactionismn on "getting tough on crime". Making more acts criminal isn't "getting tough on crime" however, but rather the opposite, and anyone who believes that has absolutely no education or understanding at all . Whatever. It's too late anyways. You make your bed you have to sleep in it.

Add to that the problem that the prison systems have lobbyists lobbying for mandatory sentences for non-violent crimes which is basically just free
money for them. I don't agree that it's too late though but I think the first step is to get rid of the lobbyists and/or change the incentives. For instance
instead of paying a prison just per head maybe give the prisons bonuses at the 1, 5, and 10 year mark for prisoners that stay out of the system. I read
a report by a professor that showed that you could greatly reduce the number of people in prison by doing whole family intervention with juveniles. It's
the classic dilbert problem though. It doubles the cost of Juvenile Hall in the short term and the savings don't show up for 5-10 years and when they do
they show up in a different department so although society overall benefits, it's hard to get something like this approved as it doesn't benefit Juvenile Hall
and it really doesn't benefit the prison system either as they actually lose prisoners so someone has to connect the dots and convince taxpayers to bite
the bullet and pay more now for a payoff in a completely different area later.

Re: can they

[Wycliffe]

Readers, take these "friend of a guy I met somewhere" urban myths with a truckload of salt. Even that guy that kept those girls locked up for years would try that "they was asking for it" thing if he could have gotten away with it.

He didn't day "friend of a friend", he was somewhat specific. I'll be even more specific. My friend in college who worked parttime at Denny's
and slept with a coworker there who already had a baby from another guy. He was 22 and she was 17. The grandmother turned them in and
he's now on the sexual offender's list for life. He also lost his main job as IT at the sheriff's office because of it. It was consentual sex and
she had a fricken baby but it's still listed as rape and he's on the same sexual predator's list with 50 year old men going after 12 year olds.

Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

California has a problem with overcrowded prisons. Sweden has a problem with prisons being unoccupied.

I sense an opportunity for a good capitalist.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[EdIII]

Swedish Prison?

That sounds better at this point than trying to survive in the US economy with fuckwits running the show....

(I mean all of them, not one side)

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

California has a problem with overcrowded prisons. Sweden has a problem with prisons being unoccupied.

I sense an opportunity for a good capitalist.

No, keep your filth right where it is.
What the US should be doing is disarming its law ENFORCEMENT agency and let it become again a police force.
What the US should be doing is let less and less people go to prison. And those that go, shoudl go to be rehabilitated into civil society. In other words the US should be inspired by european moral values and not the shitty "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" bullshit ideology that underlies its entire judicial system. Designed only to put people into prison for minor deeds.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[davester666]

And a good catapultist.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[mendax]

I doubt California could afford it. What Sweden spends per prisoner is probably double what California does. I suspect a Swedish dungeon affords better conditions than a California one.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Dionysus]

What the US should be doing is disarming its law ENFORCEMENT agency and let it become again a police force.

But according to Fox News, how can you be a democracy if the police is unarmed?

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Mitsoid]

I see the kinda words you're flinging around.. And I approve!

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Neil Boekend]

Just label 'em "bad" and let $deity sort it out.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[crutchy]

sudo rm politicians

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[crutchy]

there is a difference between a police officer with a ford sedan, a pistol or 2 with a couple of extra clips, taser, baton, pepper spray and bullet-proof vest, and a police officer with an armoured personnel carrier, machine gun, hand grenades and storm trooper outfit

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[geogob]

No. We just want to label them "bad".

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Noughmad]

sudo killall politicians

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joce640k]

But according to Fox News, how can you be a democracy if the police is unarmed?

Oh, dear ... I didn't know it had got to that stage yet.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[sumdumass]

I can see you didn't bother listening to your clip or even bothered to hear what was said. If you did, you never would have posted that.

She says not having gun does not neccesarily mean _it_is_ a democracy. Go ahead, listen to it again.

So you have a constitutional monarchy(Norway), that is conducting a trial in secrete, a guy from some org for the defense of democracy claiming norway is one and that the criminal exploited democracy (he dressed as a cop and shot the cops that confronted him), and the fox babe sets up a question prefacing it with cops not being armed doesn't make the country a democracy.

That is completely different than what you tried to claim.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joce640k]

Some figures from http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/norway

Civilian guns on Norway: 1,320,000 (1 in three people)
Government guns in Norway: 80,000

The Government is outgunned by 16:1

(Which is as it should be)

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[WWJohnBrowningDo]

Noughmad is not in the plutocrat file. This incident will be reported.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, people have been calling politicians fuckwits since time immemorial. Read ancients text from thousands of years ago. People have always despised politicians. It's fascinating when you think about it. The sentiments are nearly identical, only the words change. (Interestingly, atheists have always existed, too, with Plato characterizing them as young and naive.)

And yet... here we are. Calling politicians fuckwits is like saying the sky is blue--it's not clever, it's not a unique or novel sentiment, and it's entirely pointless. Because other people have felt _exactly_ as you do yesterday, 1 year go, 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, and presumably 10,000 years ago, what exactly is the purpose of venting your generalized frustration in a public forum?

You might as well masturbate on camera. That will at least titillate somebody.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[WWJohnBrowningDo]

Scandalous! Whoever is responsible for this mess should go to jail!

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[i ate my neighbour]

It's fine as long as they have stormtrooper accuracy.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[isorox]

sudo killall politicians

You realise GCHQ monitor slashdot?

sudo praise all politicians and their masters

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[jandersen]

The Government is outgunned by 16:1

However, in Norway the population is, by and large, loyal to the government, believe it or not. In fact, that is how it is in most of Europe, AFAIK. Even if we don't agree with the government's policies, we still trust and respect them.

I remember a story from when I went to school in Denmark (too many years ago): The Czar of Russia came on a state visit to Denmark, and was shown some of the sights in Copenhagen, modest as they are. Among other things, they climbed up a famous church tower, "The Round Tower"; and the Czar, whose czarina was a Danish princess, wanted to impress his in-law with his immense power, so he called over one of his young officers and told him to throw himself from the tower. The officer dared not disobey, said his last prayers and started to climb over the railings - but the king stopped him and has the czar what this was about. The czar ansewred: "See, this is how powerful I am. Nobody can resist me". And the king looked at him and said - "My power if different - I can go out to even the poorest farm in my country, unarmed and alone, and ask for shelter; and the farmer will guard me with his life."

The American way is not the only way.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joce640k]

Sweden != Norway

Well, duh.

You know how I know you didn't watch the video you're responding to?

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[should_be_linear]

It made some sense to compare civilian to government guns until like 1930. Governments have all those airplanes, hellicopters, NSAs, prisons, so best thing you can do with bare gun against government is to shoot yourself in the head.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Luckyo]

So it's better if police spray and pray in the streets?

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[mwvdlee]

Yes, obviously Sweden needs privatized prisons too.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Luckyo]

Sweden hasn't been genetically and socially homogenous in a long time. They have Sami minority in the north, Finnish, Danish and Norwegian across the country and they have been taking refugees to the point where they now have about 10% of nation formed from first and second generation migrants from various conflicts across the globe.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

However, in Norway the population is, by and large, loyal to the government, believe it or not. In fact, that is how it is in most of Europe, AFAIK

Where is the BULLSHIT mod option when you need it!?

While this MAY be true for Norway it is certainly not true for most of Europe.
Voter participation is on an all time low, demonstrations against the "ruling class" aka politicians get more violent, corruption is everywhere and people know it.

The only reason that most appear complicit is because overall people are still living comfortably over here.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[shutdown -p now]

However, in Norway the population is, by and large, loyal to the government, believe it or not. In fact, that is how it is in most of Europe, AFAIK. Even if we don't agree with the government's policies, we still trust and respect them.

That's because your government actually represents you reasonably well. And that, in turn, is because you keep it in check.

Americans believe that any government is bad government, but that's because all they ever saw is bad government. They don't realize that a strong government can do a great many things for its citizens so long as the citizens keep it in check and make it focus its power towards their needs.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweden is also, compared to the US, VERY socialist

Compared to the US, which is a proto-fascist police state at this point, ANY country is relatively socialist. The sad thing is I just know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you have no clue what socialism entails. So, you're not actually wrong, but not for lack of trying.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Eunuchswear]

You're behind the times. GCHQ have their own slashdot.

Of course, who knows which one you're reading at the moment...

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[TheP4st]

Sweden also has the highest suicide rates Strange thing you left out those facts, guess they did not fit your case.

Strange thing you left out the fact that the USA have a higher suicide rate than Sweden, guess it did not fit your case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Eunuchswear]

On a slightly more serious note, Sweden has an advantage in that the country is genetically and socially homogenous.

14.3% of the Swedish population are foreign born.

Around 20% are either foreign born or children of two foreign born parents.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joining Yet Again]

Your observation is that people have always been calling politicians fuckwits, and your conclusion is that people have always been wrong.

I suggest that people have always been right.

It's in the nature of the position: if one must want power to gain power, then only those who want power will be in power. Apart from the very rare altruist - Aneurin Bevan was probably one of the last such politicians in the UK - it is a case of give me sortition or give me fuckwits.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fustakrakich]

Designed only to put people into prison for minor deeds.

An empty prison gathers no profit. Morality is irrelevant and is nothing but mental masturbation and distraction.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[TheLink]

They spray, you pray. And everyone pays.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[gmuslera]

US prisons are full because it is profitable for the companies that run them. If crime drops enough, then they will find a way to keep them full anyway, and a surveillance/police state is a guarantee that they will succeed at that.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[javilon]

In fact, that is how it is in most of Europe, AFAIK. Even if we don't agree with the government's
policies, we still trust and respect them.

That may be in the North. Here in the south (Spain) we have the opposite. Crowded jails, corrupt politicians and a public that doesn't trust its government at all. Not that we can get rid of them. They have us by the balls.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[ladoga]

They won't exit voluntarily. So you need to use force:
$ sudo killall -9 politicians

But whatever. You'll only end up witnessing the following:
"$USER is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported."

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Bongo]

In Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature, he describes a study done on attitudes throughout USA. The study was in the form of a letter, written as if from a guy looking for a job, and the letter was sent to employers round the country. The letter made an admission, "I think you should know, I was involved in a murder, I was confronted by a guy in a bar and we had to take it outside, and he suddenly had a knife and I had to defend myself, and he died." Employers in the Northern states were not sympathetic to him. Employers in Southern states were sympathetic, and admitted that he was forced into it and had to defend his honour and even offered him friendly support would he ever be in town. Meanwhile a similar letter was used with a different admission, that the guy had been poor and so stole a car. Similar difference but in reverse. This time the Northern states were sympathetic to his situation, but Southern states thought it was no excuse. As it happens, separate stats show that the incidence of gun related murders is lowest in Northern states, and highest in Southern states. The inference? Gun crime is largely about cultural values to do with honour. You must guard yourself, your honour is to protect your relatives, your property, etc. Why? Well this is the interesting thing. If you don't trust the government to protect you, because say, you are herding goats in a desert area far from authorities, then the code of honour dominates. So perhaps, USA has higher gun crime because it is enshrined in the constitution that you shouldn't trust the government anyway.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Trepidity]

1930 is also about the time many of those Norwegian civilian guns were manufactured. It seems every Norwegian I know has a few old hunting rifles they inherited from their grandfather, along with a primitive mountain hut to store them in.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joce640k]

Why would a country full of blondes and saunas have any suicide rate at all...?

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joce640k]

While this MAY be true for Norway it is certainly not true for most of Europe.

Yep.

Here in Spain we'd be cutting their heads off it it were legal and they weren't heavily armed.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Rufty]

No, we want to label them "bad" and "worse".

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fey000]

However, in Norway the population is, by and large, loyal to the government, believe it or not. In fact, that is how it is in most of Europe, AFAIK. Even if we don't agree with the government's policies, we still trust and respect them.

That's because your government actually represents you reasonably well. And that, in turn, is because you keep it in check.

Americans believe that any government is bad government, but that's because all they ever saw is bad government. They don't realize that a strong government can do a great many things for its citizens so long as the citizens keep it in check and make it focus its power towards their needs.

I don't think we have the same idea here. We don't keep our government "in check". Instead, we populate the government with people representative to some degree of the population at large. When the richest 1% are not the ruling class, you get wonderful benefits like a taxation of not only the poor, but also the rich. And that there provides a fantastic boost to the national economy.

In short, keeping your government "in check" is less important when the government already attempts to work for the nation at large rather than only for those that might fund the next election. Also, it builds one hell of a trusting relation which helps when you need to do unpleasant things like slash the retirement funds or raise the retirement age.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

But without blackjack and hookers.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fritsd]

Some people feel a bit down when the Winter half-year starts in November: all maintenance and hobby projects that you wanted to finish outside have to be postponed under 1 1/2 meters of snow. Also, November can be very very gloomy (no snow yet and less than 8 hours daylight).

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

Some more figures about Sweden, shall we?

Health expenditure (in percent of GDP): 9.4 (USA: 17.9)
Physician density (per 1000): 3.8 (USA: 2.4)
Adult obesity: 18.6% (USA: 33%)
Education expenditure (in percent of GDP): 7.3 (USA: 5.4)
Public debt (2012/2011, in percent of GDP): 38.2/38.4 (USA: 72.5/67.8)

Unlike your claims, I have a source for them. Well, of course only if you believe that socialist propaganda machine that the CIA is.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

Is there any source for those numbers? If that is true, it pretty much means that there are more people in prison in the USA than in China.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[I'm New Around Here]

Well, I haven't seen a dupe article this week, so I can't be on the original Slashdot.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[flyneye]

There's a very good reason for that.
People who put themselves forward and offer services as a politician should be the last choice to fill that position.
People of sound mind, kind heart and good will should be extorted into fulfilling that duty, if we are ever to be a success.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[flyneye]

Euro moral values?!
+1 funny
A little long winded, but the punchline is sublime.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[spiralx]

Yes, it's true both by absolute value and percentage, there's any number of sources available but this BBC article has a good summary of various figures.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

What that leads to is that when you get robbed, you'll also get killed. If the punishment is the same whether you live or die, you die. It's one less witness.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

Californians and Swedes are pretty close to each other anyway. They look quite alike. The main difference is maybe that the Swedes speak the better English.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[flyingfsck]

Damn, I thought I was getting on in years. Seeing that Nicholas was killed in 1917, you must have been born around 1907 and should be about 106 years old...

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[gbjbaanb]

IIRC Plato suggested the only truly just society (and just means perfect here) was to remove all worldly goods from those in the top rank (the golds) so their welbeing was intricately linked to the happiness and success of the society they governed. Imagine if there was no lobbyists or other vested interests able to sway a politician with promises of a cushy non-exec directorship, or speaking tours, or just buckets of cash.. not only would it discourage the psychopaths from running, it'd also mean they might concentrate of doing a decent job instead!

I think these people were also chosen at random, but its been a very long time since I read the Republic. Worth are-read I think.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[erikkemperman]

Sorry to say that, yes, this is true. The BBC article spiralx mentioned is a good summary. More numbers:
American incarceration rate
List of countries by incarceration rate

Personally I believe the privatization of justice has a lot to do with these figures. Otherwise I can't explain the fact that these incarceration rates were growing all through a major drop in crime rates over the same period.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[AlecC]

That "Sweden has the highest suicide rates" was true when President Eisenhower quoted it. But that was a long, long time ago, and it hasn't been true for a logn time. Sweden's suicide rate is now around or just below the European average.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[h00l00v00]

Just remember to use the swedish prime ministers password 'banan' (banana) leaked from Adobe.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fritsd]

So you're saying American Christians are technically/culturally Jews; where in Judaïsm the impact of the story of God telling Avraham/Abraham/Ibrahim to slaughter his son Yitzhak/Isaäc/Ishmael is considered as more religiously instructive than, say, the Sermon on the Mount.

It's interesting to see that, even if the stories are the same in different cultures, the emphasis on which of the stories are of greatest importance can make such a difference.
Mind you, in all the Abrahamic religions God settles for a barbecue, which is a lot kinder than the ancient ritual of the statue of Moloch (WARNING: link causes distress).

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[dbIII]

Americans believe that any government is bad government, but that's because all they ever saw is bad government

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
You people have no idea what a bad government is if you have that attitude.

Look beyond the cocaine fuelled insanity of Californian government (or whatever has done it to that place for decades) and Southern shitholes (which where I live in another country is starting to resemble politically) and you'll see some stuff that works - maybe not as well as in 1970 in the same place but still better than a lot of other places.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[shentino]

It's better if cops are held to the same standards as citizens when they kill someone.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[camperdave]

California has a problem with overcrowded prisons. Sweden has a problem with prisons being unoccupied.

I sense an opportunity for a good capitalist.

Yes. You need to import Swedish methods for dealing with crime.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Arkham]

I don't think we have the same idea here. We don't keep our government "in check". Instead, we populate the government with people representative to some degree of the population at large.

That's exactly the problem in the US. We're a nation divided. If you look at the last 3 elections, we're divided nearly 50/50 on our political views. Half of Americans seem to want social justice, equality, privacy, and caring for the poor, and the other half want religion in schools, small government, privatization of all government roles, and a huge military. The two sides are so far apart that no compromise is possible.

A friend explained it like this. Two people go out to dinner. One says, "I feel like eating Italian tonight." The other says, "I want to eat Anthrax and broken glass." Now, compromise so both are happy.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Eunuchswear]

That, folks, is the bizzarest mod I've ever got (and that's saying some, considering some of the stuff that happens in the AGW topics).

+5 insightful for a silly joke?

The paranoia is strong today!

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Eunuchswear]

The GCHQ equivalents would be a slot machine in a smelly pub and a toothless blowjob in the car park out back.

Advice for GCHQ employees - lie back and think of all that lovely NSA cash that pays your wages.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[igny]

What suicide rate can they have?

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Joining Yet Again]

His consclusion was that people are wrong ("pointless", "not clever", etc.) to call politicians fuckwits.

But I think that's the central problem: politicians are intrinsically fuckwits. It's an inherent feature of the system.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Ozymandias_KoK]

Stormtroopers aren't accurate, they're precise. ;)

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[erikkemperman]

Incarceration rates should parallel immigration rates, especially in Europe.

I have a hard time parsing this is anything other than xenophobe troll. But I hope I'm wrong, so at the risk of feeding... Why should incarceration rates parallel immigration rates? And why especially in Europe?

Don't bother replying if your answer is "all immigrants are criminals" or something silly like that.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Lucky_Norseman]

In Norway, those guns would be mainly military. Normal policemen are not armed in Norway, but they may have a sealed box in the glove compartment of their car so they can arm themselves if needed.
In Sweden the police are normally armed with pistols.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[slash.jit]

sudo shutdown government

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[microbox]

The Government is outgunned by 16:1

Some Americans don't believe in democracy.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[kilfarsnar]

It's fine as long as they have stormtrooper accuracy.

Hey! They're more precise than sand people!

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Jiro]

Denmark at that time had a population of about 3 million. Iowa currently has a population of 3 million. I wouldn't be surprised if the governor of Iowa walks around without bodyguards. Furthermore, Denmark has a constitutional monarchy and the king doesn't actually rule the country (and appears not to have done so even at the time of the Russian czars), so the impetus to kill him is a lot less.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Jiro]

Like in the Denmark example,
1) Sweden is much smaller than the US.
2) The king doesn't actually rule the country.

He walks around with bodyguards because he's a nobody.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[ultranova]

That's because your government actually represents you reasonably well. And that, in turn, is because you keep it in check.

Yes, but not with guns. You can't keep a government in check with the threat of revolution because, even if you had all the guns, the cost of overthrowing one is so high and the risk of even worse one rising so dire it almost never happens. Rather, there's a political system that divides power between multiple (>2) parties, which means there's always the threat of an upstart outcompeting the established ones if they get too full of themselves.

Norway has a free market and competition for political parties, US has a cartel of two holding almost all power. One of these means you get to pick which flavour of two equal evils you dislike less, and othe other that there's always another party competing for your vote, and if they get corrupt that's fine, just switch to another. Which is kinda ironic, considering how much importance US puts on economic competition - I guess its leaders don't like to be subject to their own teachings.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[paiute]

sudo killall politicians

Oh shit, sorry, I wrote your name in the last time I voted. The killbots are on the way.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Somebody Is Using My]

You realise GCHQ monitor slashdot?

All the more reason not to censor oneself.

Remind Them that we are not afraid of them, and we will not bow.

Yes, I know the comment I am responding to was made in jest. I still don't think that we should - even in mockery - countenance the idea of obeisance to self-important bureaucrats for doing something we every right to do. It all too quickly turns from a half-hearted jest into a habit and then finally a becomes a requirement beneath which we are all forced to live. I'd rather just give them the finger openly from the start.

Thus I say in agreement with the GP:
sudo killall politicians

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[rwise2112]

It's fine as long as they have stormtrooper accuracy.

They can't have. After all "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise". So they would be less precise, and couldn't even hit the side of a sandcrawler, which Imperial Stormtroopers can barely do apparently.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Jiro]

with-->without, of course

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Sloppy]

Voter participation is on an all time low

Ah, humans. We have the perfect strategy for getting what we want from democracy: "Don't like it? Stop voting!"

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[coinreturn]

Some more figures about Sweden, shall we?

Health expenditure (in percent of GDP): 9.4 (USA: 17.9) Physician density (per 1000): 3.8 (USA: 2.4) Adult obesity: 18.6% (USA: 33%) Education expenditure (in percent of GDP): 7.3 (USA: 5.4) Public debt (2012/2011, in percent of GDP): 38.2/38.4 (USA: 72.5/67.8)

Unlike your claims, I have a source for them. Well, of course only if you believe that socialist propaganda machine that the CIA is.

It's amusing to me that you think outspending on health is bad and that outspending on education is good. [This assumes that all your data points were intended to show Sweden superior].

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fonske]

"the catapultist empathic capacity for the decapitated capitalist was the capitulation of the californicated cataclysm"

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

It turns out that holding political office is a hell of a lot of work, and most people don't want to do it. (I sure don't, do you?) You know what's worse than an asshole who wants to be a politician and becomes one? A kindhearted marm who becomes a politician despite not at all wanting the job. That marm is going to wash out but the asshole is at least going to perform the job duties -- and with zeal, even.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

Low voter participation is a sign that the population is happy with the status of the democracy but the rest of what you said makes sense.

Keep in mind, however, that most of Europe isn't a democracy. A few countries are, but Spain and Sweden are monarchies and the UK is still a theocracy for goodness sake.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[operagost]

No, a strong government is a bad government as long as there are bad people who abuse power... which is forever. If you don't trust individuals to make their own decisions, how are those same people given positions of power going to suddenly become righteous?

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[jandersen]

They have us by the balls.

Well, at least it is means your government is relevant to you.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[operagost]

You're part of the problem. Look at your two factions:

social justice, equality, privacy, and caring for the poor

and

religion in schools, small government, privatization of all government roles, and a huge military

I believe in social justice... I just don't believe government is capable of achieving it. And "caring for the poor" is a subset of it.
A big government capable of enacting "social justice" cannot allow us privacy. It's impossible. We're forced to tell the government exactly how much money we make and what we do with it to pay for the programs, and now that we're forced to buy health insurance they demand to know everything about our health. In order to support "equality", our businesses have to tell the government who they're hiring and firing, how their buildings are designed, who their customers are, etc.

The crazy "right wing Republican" who wants both small government and a huge military is also a contradiction in terms.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

American health care is more expensive than other countries because we subsidize the healthcare of the rest of the world. You're welcome! You're welcome for all those inexpensive drugs developed by American companies based on American-government-funded basic science and sold to you at a discount. You're welcome! You're welcome for all those medical devices and procedures developed by American doctors in American hospitals having been trained in American universities with the cost borne by the American economy. You're welcome! We don't mind doing you the favor but frankly it's a little unflattering for you to turn around and say it's to our shame that you are freeloading off of us. Gosh, would it be so hard you all to say thank you?

Obesity is a sign of wealth. Americans are wealthy and fat -- we are living the dream, baby! Pass the cheese dip!

I couldn't tell whether the education expenditure counted both public (tax) and private spending. Sweden has tax-paid college education, right? I don't know whether America's private college tuition payments are part of your numbers, but in any case Sweden is getting outspent by Namibia and Cuba and whatever the heck Lethoso is.

And sheesh we do all of that with tax rates less than half of Sweden's. We have problems, sure, but I'm not sure you've focused on the biggest or truest ones. If you want to focus on the way that Sweden is most better than America, focus on the rate of the populace which believes in magic -- Sweden is a century ahead of us there, even though Sweden was a theocracy until 2000.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Mab_Mass]

It's amusing to me that you think outspending on health is bad and that outspending on education is good. [This assumes that all your data points were intended to show Sweden superior].

I fail to see the humor here. Sweden manages to spend just over half of the US on health, but manages to have nearly half the infant mortality rate and a longer life expectancy. It seems that they must be doing something right.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that all of these numbers are independent.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Zalbik]

It's amusing to me that you think outspending on health is bad and that outspending on education is good.

Given that the USA outspends Sweden on health, but the life expectancy is lower, the outspending by USA is a bad thing.

Given that Swedish adults outperform American adults on standardized tests, the outspending by Sweden on education appears justified.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Defending yourself against getting knifed (and quite possibly dying) is "defending your honor"? That is an interesting interpretation.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[shutdown -p now]

I didn't say anything about guns.

FWIW, while I'm pro-gun, I don't believe that guns are particularly useful to keep the government in check. Many repressive regimes had fairly liberal gun laws (e.g. in Saddam's Iraq, the norm was a full-auto AK per household). Guns are for personal self-defense (well, and recreation), not for politics.

And yes, one of the major reasons why US is bad on that count is because its political system is broken so badly. But it's not just proportional representation. It's also stuff like gerrymandering and unrestricted corporate lobbying. Basically, the two big players in the system conspire to keep it in such a shape that it benefits them both at the expense of any smaller parties.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Areyoukiddingme]

When health outcomes for the US are worse across the board than they are in Sweden, outspending on health IS bad.

When poverty, crime, and lack of education are tightly and inextricably linked, outspending on education IS good.

Longer lifespans are good. Sweden has them. Lower infant mortality rates are good. Sweden has them. Lower maternal mortality rates are good. Sweden has them. Lower prison population coupled with lower crime rates are good. Sweden has them. Lower suicide rates are good. Sweden has them. The list goes on and on and on, so where there are questions or counter-intuitive numbers, such as lower healthcare spending, something in your assumptions is probably wrong and Sweden is doing it right.

We can safely assume that there is no one Swedish policy that is yielding such good results. We can safely assume that their demographics contribute to their good results. We can safely assume that their culture contributes to their good results. We do not yet know how much any of those things matter, or why the suite of policies they're using work so well, but obviously wrong assumptions such as higher healthcare spending being always good will not help in understanding why what they're doing is working.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

10%? I don't know what the threshold of "homogenous" for you is but to me 90% is very homogenous. America is nearing 50% non-white, which is normally what we mean when we talk about diversity.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[shutdown -p now]

I don't think we have the same idea here. We don't keep our government "in check". Instead, we populate the government with people representative to some degree of the population at large.

That is keeping your government in check. The very fact of having proportionate representation is already a big deal in that regard, but you have to put it in place first (and ensure that it remains there).

Besides that, I'm pretty sure that you have e.g. laws that limit campaign contributions, don't you?

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[charles2678]

[T]he asshole is at least going to perform the job duties

Counterexample: Current House of Representatives.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[TheRaven64]

A friend explained it like this. Two people go out to dinner. One says, "I feel like eating Italian tonight." The other says, "I want to eat Anthrax and broken glass." Now, compromise so both are happy.

Stay in, order a pizza, and let one of them season his with anthrax and broken glass. The problem in the USA is that the story is more like one says 'Italian is the only food that people should be allowed to eat' and the other says 'no, everyone should be force-fed broken glass'.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Urza9814]

I'd rather just give them the finger openly from the start.

Well said! I personally try to do that -- quite literally -- at every possible opportunity. Second circuit says it's protected speech! :)

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Urza9814]

"Even if we don't agree with the government's policies, we still trust and respect them."

So what you're saying is that Norway is full of a bunch of fucking morons?

There is nothing noble or admirable in trusting human beings in positions of authority over other human beings. Nothing at all. If the attitude of the people of Norway is as you claim, it is something to be ashamed of.

It's like you're bragging about how good of sheep the people of Norway are.

And the farmer in your quaint little story? We have a term for people like that - its Uncle Tom.

You don't have to agree with a decision to respect it. It's called compromise. There's a difference between respecting and understanding a decision you may not personally agree with vs. blind obedience.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[coinreturn]

You don't see the irony in thinking that spending more on education is good, but spending more on health isn't? The data presented said nothing about results, only spending.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[coinreturn]

While all that may be true, the original poster presented only the expenditures as proof that Sweden was better. That was my point.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Urza9814]

I don't think we have the same idea here. We don't keep our government "in check". Instead, we populate the government with people representative to some degree of the population at large. When the richest 1% are not the ruling class, you get wonderful benefits like a taxation of not only the poor, but also the rich. And that there provides a fantastic boost to the national economy.

That *is* keeping the government "in check". That's what the USA used to have too -- at least more like that than what we have now. Look into Abe Lincoln's early life for example. The reason we're so fucked now is that we failed to prevent them from continuing to amass more and more power over the years to the point where now they're a whole different class.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[dosilegecko]

"You'd have to be a real low-life piece of shit to get involved in politics" - Frank Reynolds

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[dosilegecko]

They're held to nothing. They get to walk around and be rude disrespectful thugs who harass people for no reason whenever they feel like. I think that sentence also describes the gangs they try to control. Who is the real gangs now?!

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[dosilegecko]

I think its different here in America because the politicians do not even pretend to represent their constituents and see us as a burden that pays them.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[photo pilot]

You cannot really compare a homogeneous Scandanavion countrty with the USA. Not saying we are perfect or anything, but we are assembled out of states that had incredibly diverse interests. Old joke that may be true- Swedish ambassador is touring Minnesota (USA state home to many Swedes). He is talking about how the socialist Swedish government has eliminated poverty in Sweden. The state official from Minnesota observes they have no poverty among the Swedish in Minnesota either!

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[photo pilot]

There is a *lot* to this. ALL of the original colonies had a bedrock foundation value that a central far away government was no-fking-way showing up and taking their right to self defense away. Especially after the British egged on Indian tribes to attack the 13 colonies during the Revolution. Then add in westward expansion that had people far away from any government authority relying on their guns for defense - or offense as the case may be - against Indians and sometimes each other. On top of THAT the North and South were very different places. New England looked like a modern country. They had science, industry, railroads, manufacturing, and a tradition of excellent free public education. Someone living in a New England town in 1830 likely had no more need of a firearm for routine self defense than they do now in 2013. The south was...ah. not quite like that. They had a more feudal society where rich whites were very far above all others. They educated their children with private tutors. WAY under them were what we call now "rednecks or hillbillies or white trash" who had not a lot of econimic opportunity. The way up was very much blocked by lack of education and money to buy slaves and those slaves also filled all the low budget niches too. The people at the top made SURE to keep the poor whites stirred up against the slaves. To make it even worse, this element was usually Scotch-Irish and were poor, violent, and always suspicious of central authority even before they GOT to America.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Inser_Name_Here]

I say we should be disarming law enforcement and police forces in favor of police SERVICES, like the model used in most of the UK. The Peelian principles were developed to make a police service with a social contract of mutual respect. 82% of UK police do not want to be armed with guns, even though UK police do sometimes get shot and many are put in life threatening situations. They feel that doing so would compromise this trust. The emphasis is on deescalating situations, increasing violence and using force to resolve them.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

I know this sounds dismissive but the majority party of the House was specifically elected to do nothing. "Nothing" is the policy agenda of a large minority of the voting public, those forming the base of the conservative half of the electorate.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[mcgrew]

As it happens, separate stats show that the incidence of gun related murders is lowest in Northern states, and highest in Southern states.

That single line makes me doubt everything else. You can't go much farther north from Chicago without being in Canada, and they and New York are the murder capitols of the world. You're going to have to do better than "In Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature, he describes a study." He's a psychologist, and the one thing I took away from the general studies psychology class I took was, and I quote the instructor (who was as learned as Pinker and held the same degree) who said "there isn't a psychologist alive that there isn't a different one calling the first a gold-studded liar."

Psychology is even less of a science than economics.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[jbengt]

Sweden hasn't been genetically and socially homogenous in a long time. They have Sami minority in the north, Finnish, Danish and Norwegian across the country and they have been taking refugees

You may have a valid point, I don't know the demographics. I'm from Chicago, where you can (I have) eat at a Swedish restaraunt owned by a Greek, served by an African, food cooked by a Swedish chef, with your table bussed by an Hispanic. As an American of Swedish and Danish descent, I don't think Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians are really that diverse from each other.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

IMO, a US prison is worse than death.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Behrooz]

The per-capita homicide rate in NYC is actually lower than in any other major city in the USA, barely above the national average.

Chicago roughly comparable to Atlanta... and even Detroit is still safer than New Orleans. You can argue the reasons, but you can't argue that the deep south has more than its share of social problems.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

Thanks.

I thought it was common knowledge so I didn't bother pointing out, but apparently it needs to be said.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

I was under the assumption that someone reading on /. can draw the obvious conclusions (that have been pointed out to you by more than one person by now).

Judging by seeing how three people explained it while only one complained that he doesn't know, I guess my assumption was not so far off. I just can't please everyone, I guess I have to deal with that, but 3 out of 4 should do for now.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Opportunist]

Please tell me that this is somehow ironic, sarcastic or otherwise anything but serious.

And it's Lesotho. A country in South Africa. And considering its status, it's kinda nonsensical to include it in any statistic (it's a bit like pondering the birth rates in Vatican and how it will be devoid of life considering the average age of the resident).

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[flyneye]

Politicians who do nothing are preferable to those who do things. Duties are a given, outside of that, finding reasons to spend money, fixing things that aren't broken, concocting programs to pay off the voters support for the next election.
Nope, give me the reluctant marm. I'll even lower his pay. You can give the zealous, a mop and a toilet brush. They belong where they will do little harm and more good.

Re: Hey California, I have a solution for you

[fritsd]

So... like Northern states even in the USA's midwest? ...

I wouldn't know..

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Bongo]

Yes I don't think much of it either on the whole, which is why I tried to quote exactly what they did and what result they claim they got. From there, infer what you will.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[coinreturn]

I was under the assumption that someone reading on /. can draw the obvious conclusions (that have been pointed out to you by more than one person by now).

Judging by seeing how three people explained it while only one complained that he doesn't know, I guess my assumption was not so far off. I just can't please everyone, I guess I have to deal with that, but 3 out of 4 should do for now.

It's not an obvious conclusion. You omitted facts and just said the spending was better. It's the better outcomes that matter, not the spending. Sorry, I tried to improve your argument, since your superiority was obviously enough.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Luckyo]

America is a colony where indigenous people were all but wiped out. Using that as an example of an average country is like using a hooker dying of AIDS as an example of average woman.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CaptainAx]

drop table politians; commit;

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[zsau]

If you vote, you don't get what you want. If you don't vote, you don't get what you want—but you haven't wasted your time.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[zsau]

What on earth is this kind of comment? It's like "America isn't a democracy, it's a republic". No, Spain and Sweden and the UK are democratic monarchies. They are both democracies and monarchies. The UK is not a theocracy; the church is governed by the the state, not the other way around.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

The head of state is the head of the church. That is literally the definition of theocracy. UK is a theocracy.

All these monarchies have unelected heads of state. We can have different opinions I guess, but in my opinion "democracy" strictly implies that you elect the head of state.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[CauseBy]

Every country is a colony where indigenous people were all but wiped out. The only difference is that the USA began in the memorable past. Before Europeans arrived, the natives washed over each other with waves of genocide and interbreeding although it is true that the Europeans were better at it than the untechnological former residents.

Ever heard of the Clovis people? Let's assume they were "first" -- well then there were several waves of genocide between the Clovis and the Puritans.

But anyway, I wasn't trying to make the USA out to be an average country I was merely using it as my standard of judging homogeneity.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Luckyo]

Vast majority of those were not so much genocide as standard conquering. You have to remember that when you wipe out men and take women as prostitutes and slaves, these women tend to procreate about as much as before. The cold math of procreation is that if you wipe out all the men and bring completely new men from outside, total amount of children will remain roughly the same. And vast majority of genocide in human history has been about killing enemy men and taking their women as slaves. Hell, you'll find references to this even in the bible and quran.

US was an exception in that it didn't do that. Instead it actually went for genocide for all ages and sexes. That is fairly rare in human history.

Re:Hey California, I have a solution for you

[Otis B. Dilroy III]

Sorry, but if you are face down dead, the above seems like a matter of semantics.

this is not good news

[Laxori666]

Just think of how many jobs will be lost by the closing of these prisons! Surely there must be something we can do to prevent this calamity from continuing. Maybe the government should subsidize crime to encourage more criminals so that these jobs are safe. Or make a bunch of things illegal that aren't, currently, to increase the incarceration rate. Cause more jobs = better economy as we all know.

Re:this is not good news

[EdIII]

You know it might just be possible that Swedish prisons were actually working to rehabilitate the prisoners. Victims of their own success?

Re:this is not good news

[Quasimodem]

We don't want any of that! If all the criminals are rehabilitated, our police will have no one to push around but law-abiding citizens . . . Oops! Too late.

Re:this is not good news

[Anonymous Coward]

No, as a Swede I know from the public debate that the reason for the decline in prisoners is a change in policy by the court of law. The government at this time pushes for increased prison sentences and higher maximum penalties. The courts responded by always sentencing the minimum allowed by law. It is basically a pissing contest - the number of police officers and crime has been increasing rapidly while the prison population has been decreasing.

Re:this is not good news

[geogob]

There are jobs that, as a society, we should be happy to cut. Of course, every job lost is a drama for someone. But one should not lose sight of the big picture. What do these jobs represent and what is the gain of losing them. One should also consider the impact of a (almost) crime-free nation on the job distribution and on the economy. Although it is unclear to me which comes first. Jobs leading to lower crime rate or lower crime rate leading to better economy and to more jobs.

But you were sacrastic, right. Right?

Re:this is not good news

[Joce640k]

There are jobs that, as a society, we should be happy to cut.

Glaziers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re:this is not good news

[Libertarian001]

"You know it might just be possible that Swedish prisons were actually working to rehabilitate the prisoners. Victims of their own success?"

Sooooo... You're blaming the victims... ;)

Re:this is not good news

[geogob]

That depends what you consider a broken window to society. Loss of a few job or crime and emprisonment.

That's pretty much where the difference lays between Scandinavian contries and America.

Re:this is not good news

[dargaud]

I know you are trolling, but 14% of the swedish population are immigrants. And in a country of blond Valkyries, it's not like Iraqis can go around unnoticed.

Re:this is not good news

[Opportunist]

As the US show it's not even necessary to rehabilitate them. Locking them all up works just as well.

Re:this is not good news

[UPi]

To the lovely people who have moderated this "Insightful" instead of "Funny"... I seriously hope that you have missed the point.

This reminds me of the discredited parable that breaking a window is good for the 'conomy, because it generates business for the repairman, who then buys new shoes from the cobbler, who then bla bla bla. The real economy in the meantime registers the net loss of a window.

Re:this is not good news

[MiniMike]

The problem is a lack of overlap between areas with excess criminals (USA) and excess prison space (Sweden). What we need is a way for criminals in areas with full prisons to outsource their crimes to under-employed criminals in the other areas. An alternative would be to grant visas to criminals from areas where they are in excess so they could go to areas where they are underrepresented. There are models in current use which could serve as a guide. Either method should help to alleviate the problem.

Re:this is not good news

[knarf]

The real Swedish way to do this would be to make a political issue out of the fact that there are way more men in prison than there are women. Anything related to 'jÃmstÃlldhet' (equality) is sure to become a political issue here, to be met with swift and decisive action. They could start crime classes for women, this would be a good start. As equality in general is a one-way process it would not do to raise sentences for women as that would be seen as misogynistic. Lowering sentences for men would also be interpreted wrongly so that is out as well. No, something should be done to get more girls to be interested in a career in crime.

Re:this is not good news

[ultranova]

This reminds me of the discredited parable that breaking a window is good for the 'conomy, because it generates business for the repairman, who then buys new shoes from the cobbler, who then bla bla bla. The real economy in the meantime registers the net loss of a window.

However, this assumes the glaziers can find a new job at or near the level of their old one. If they can't, you have the choice of desperate former glaziers causing trouble, breaking windows to keep them employed or eeevil communist welfare funded by robbing the rich righteous captains of industry at gunpoint.

Re:this is not good news

[Em Adespoton]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/pennywyatt/Interests/FlandersSwann/Other/Other02.html

(and these guys don't seem to do ad-generated revenue, so my link shouldn't put them on the "top 50" list :)

Re:this is not good news

[Reziac]

If so, then perhaps average folks see 'rehabilitation' as a great thing that all should seek... per TFA, the crime rate in Sweden has been going UP.

Tragic...

[dyingtolive]

Well, tragic that the prison industry is too profitable in the US to follow suit, anyway.

Re:Tragic...

[Yvanhoe]

Slavery had to be replaced by something.

Re:Tragic...

[Anonymous Coward]

I somehow feel that it involves the numbers 9 and 5 and is repeated 5 times a week with a creepy warden that walks around seemingly doing nothing but pester people.

Re:Tragic...

[Mojo66]

Yeah, blame capitalism. Or the fact that while the whole world find funny and useful things to make with a 3D-Printer, the first thing Americans do with it is print a gun....

Re:Tragic...

[Opportunist]

Slavery? You nuts? You have to feed and shelter slaves, with the current going wage rates that's more expensive than hiring people!

Re:Tragic...

[guyniraxn]

Americans had 3D printers for a while. Using them for guns is more recent and became a big part of what made them widely known due to the sensational aspect making the media finally take note. So no, not the first thing we did with the tech.

Re:Tragic...

[dyingtolive]

I'm reasonably certain that firearms were not the first thing Americans did with a 3D printer.

Re:Tragic...

[Reziac]

Too true. Current cost to house one inmate in California's penitentiary system for one year is $46,000. This is quite a lot better than minimum wage!

It occurs to me that one might just turn 'em loose and give 'em that $46k/year, and perhaps achieve a reduction in crime since it's easier to just collect the money.

Until, of course, everyone making minimum wage wants in on the deal!

Re:Tragic...

[Opportunist]

46k? Hell, tell the average inmate that he gets 20k a year and all he has to do is sit around and do NOTHING.

You will instantly solve overcrowded prisons, crime and part of the budget problem.

Re:Tragic...

[Reziac]

True. Especially as in Calif at least, most of 'em are in for minor offenses like possessing too much pot (assumed intent to sell).

The only difference between today's for-profit prison and the debtors prisons of the past is who foots the bill.

Those damn socialist!

[musixman]

See what happens when you provide free health care, childcare & social services to prevent crimes based on poverty and drug use!

Re:Those damn socialist!

[EdIII]

Drug use is not the problem, nor is it something that needs to be prevented. In fact, you get rid of the bullshit, it practically prevents itself.

The vast majority of all drug use is not harmful to society. Let's face some facts here. Alcohol is far more dangerous to health and safety than most drugs have ever been combined. Let's also be realistic and set aside marijuana into another category; Use and Distribution. Only its distribution is associated with crimes beyond the act of distribution itself. Crimes associated with use are less prevalent and damaging than crimes associated with alcohol. IIRC, several campuses have outright admitted they wished there was more weed usage than alcohol usage for that same reason.

An artificial economy created by prohibition is responsible for the crimes. If an addict could get meth/heroin/coke cheaply at a pharmacy along with the opportunity for help that would eliminate most of the problems.

We never did learn any lessons from prohibition of alcohol did we?

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

He's clearly referring to heavy drugs. Meth addicts will do stupid things for their next fix.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[phoenix_rizzen]

Wait. So, prohibition is bad. But the one drug that is no longer prohibited is now the worst offender of all? Me thinks you need to rethink that argument.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[EdIII]

He's clearly referring to heavy drugs. Meth addicts will do stupid things for their next fix.

That's the whole point. If the "stupid" thing a meth addict has to do is panhandle for 20 minutes, walk to Walgreens, by a little baggie and kit, that's far less damaging to society.

All of those "stupid" things are completely eliminated when you get rid of drug prohibition.

Do you need to stupid things, pay exorbitant amounts of money, enable organized crime, slink in the shadows, etc. to get some fucking beer? Or do you go down to the liquor store, slap down a few bucks, and get fucked up in your own home peaceably?

Re:Those damn socialist!

[VortexCortex]

We never did learn any lessons from prohibition of alcohol did we?

No, we learned it from prohibition of cocaine and caffeine -- Except the drink companies wouldn't budge on the caffeine front.

Lesson learned: Habit forming substances are OK as long as we can profit from them.... How do you keep folks from growing their own weed though? I mean it's WEED.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[EdIII]

Sorry to double post here, but if meth was available at a pharmacy, maybe the worst stupid thing to happen would be a meth addict shoplifting some drugs. By shoplifting I mean grabbing it from the pharmacist when they open the cupboard that has it stocked. Same way spray paint is protected these days (and that is truly stupid).

If it was legal and cheap, than there would be no place for a "criminal" to go and get it outside of legal means. Jay and Silent Bob would not make a living on the corner handing shit out anymore. I just don't see the stupid things that can be done anymore to obtain it in a society where it's legalized.

You know what is far more fucking addictive than meth? FOOD. Food is outright the most addictive substance known to man with horrifying withdrawal symptoms that are always fatal.

Yet, I don't see a pandemic of homeless people going insane and stabbing people to go and get food. They seem to get by with the homeless shelters, food pantries, and existing charities/foundations just fine.

I know that if I saw a homeless person crying and literally going insane with hunger approach me that my only option available to me would be to feed him/her. It's the only option.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

If the meth was easily obtainable and sold at a price close to its actual cost, they wouldn't have to do those stupid things. Meth and other drugs are so expensive because they are illegal. If a major drug company was allowed to make and sell it, you'd see it over the counter sold for $11 for a 30 day supply. Or even if it was $5 a day, that's affordable for most people.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

Me thinks you need to rethink that argument.

Why? You can believe that prohibition is bad while at the same time claiming that alcohol is more harmful than a lot of drugs that are or have been illegal.

I personally say prohibition is bad solely because it infringes upon people's freedoms, not because the illegal drugs aren't harmful.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[LordLucless]

Yeah, I'm sure it's because they have free childcare, and not because don't they send in a SWAT team every time someone lights up a joint.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[GrimShady]

yes, the crime rate goes up slightly... at least thats what the summary said (i didnt read tfa)

Re:Those damn socialist!

[AcidPenguin9873]

Meth addicts don't only do stupid things just to get to the next fix. What they do while on meth is pretty stupid too. That's where the comparison between "hard drugs" and alcohol fails. Is there such a thing as non-binge/moderate meth usage? There is such a thing as non-binge alcohol usage, where someone has one or two drinks with dinner and feels a little relaxed and isn't totally messed up. I would say that's the vast majority of alcohol usage. I've never heard of that with meth (or cocaine, or heroin, for example), but please show me some evidence otherwise if it exists. I think it's because the effect is stronger and more addictive than alcohol, so users pretty instantly start going for the totally-fucked-up feeling rather than the moderate feeling.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[GrimShady]

The vast majority of all drug use is not harmful to society. Let's face some facts here...

drugs dont bother me one way or the other... I honestly dont care. But I did see a video of a guy go batshit crazy and eat another guys face off so.... yeah...

not all drugs are distilled down from unicorn farts.... bad shit still happens and innocent people still die. Just because you are fine that doesnt mean other people dont snap and do horrible shit

Re:Those damn socialist!

[bluegutang]

There is a story where a Swedish government minister visited the US. He boasted about his country's 0% poverty rate and attributed it to his government's social policies. His American counterpart replied that poverty among Americans of Swedish descent is also 0%.

Not that free health care etc. are not a good idea, but I don't think they have much relation to the incarceration rate.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[CarbonShell]

Perhaps the difference is that Europeans do not go overboard, in every aspect. In general we do not have a lot of drug addicts and we surely do not throw them in jail after their 3rd strike. We also try to help them out as far as we can with treatments and support so they generally do not have to fall back to crime to 'just get by'.
You can go to a doctors and they will make sure you get the treatment you need.

Reminds me of the 'If Breaking Bad happened in Canada' pic. Which is not to say we don't have problems, we just try to make sure our jails are full of murderers and thugs and the like, not some poor kid that had a tough break.
And mind you, we also treat our prisoners differently and hold then in a different environment.

I think that fixing the crime and prison problem in the US and many other countries is not just a question of laws and regulations, but about changing your society as a whole.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Imsdal]

I'm really not sure what you are getting at here. Have you never heard of anyone using cocaine or heroin without doing stupid things? I have. In fact, only a very small percentage of usage leads to people doing stupid things. Conversely, surely you have heard of someone doing outrageously stupid things after drinking alcohol? There are in fact TV shows dedicated to this very phenomenon!

As for your discussion about the level of addictiveness, alcohol is more addictive than many drugs.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

Swede here - you're exaggerating every point you make.

75% tax rate? Come on.

The Swedes who loudly "defend" their "native cultures" in most cases ARE fascist, nationalist bigots. The ones who are more moderate about their criticisms join the third largest party instead (SD).

Men are treated like shit in any proceeding about women huh? So all those rape cases where everyone was furious about the man getting away because of this thing called "rÃttssÃkerhet" (proving beyond reasonable doubt, etc) suddenly doesn't exist.

I love how any criticism about Sweden can come in two polarly opposite forms, depending on your own worldview.

Immigration problem? Sweden either has a "huge immigration problem" if you dislike immigrants in your own country, or is "racially homogenous", if you can use that "fact" to show that any social measure such as universal health care just wouldn't work in your country.

Tax rate? It's enormous, if you're on the right, or has sunk way too low if you're on the left.

Etc.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazing how narrow minded your post is...

There is no 75% tax regardless of how you look at it. Taxes are higher here yes, but the benefits outweigh the perceived "loss". For example, we get:
* Free healthcare for life,
* A full year of paid parental leave days (which you can take out as you like until the child is 7 years old, there's even an equality bonus if the mother and father take out close to equal quantities of these days. Your job is also secured by law during this period.),
* Very low interest loans for students (of which you pay back only 2/3)

And of course there's unemployment benefits and everything else you'd expect from a modern democratic society.

Regarding political correctness... Swedish society in general is moving in a thoroughly accepting and tolerant direction. This does not mean that people can't express their opinions about immigrants, just that they don't usually do it in public out of choice. Why would you want to incite hate against a group of people?

I don't know what you mean about men being given a bad deal during divorce proceedings as I have never been divorced. I imagine that you mostly just misunderstand the concept of equality.

From the tone of your comment it seems that you are too set in your ways/opinions to consider a different approach to life, and that's okay. It's your right! But others would appreciate if you could keep your misinformation to yourself :-)

Re:Those damn socialist!

[serviscope_minor]

So, prohibition is bad.

Yes.

But the one drug that is no longer prohibited is now the worst offender of all?

Yes.

Me thinks you need to rethink that argument.

No. All you need do is look at what happened when the most popular drug was prohibited. Way worse.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[serviscope_minor]

basically there's little jurisprudence and it would've been a nice easy way to grab him and get him extradited.

Yeah, the USA has problems, and has fallen far from the ideals of its constitution, but for the moment

The Sweded arrested their own citizens and handed them over to a foriegn power to be tortured. That's pretty damning. The foreign power who tortured them was the US. That's even more damning.

In other news, the shit of all countries stinks. Getting into a pissing contest over who is worse to prove oneself's luck as better is pointless and destructive.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Gavagai80]

That's because they are nationalist bigots. PC would be to give them a nicer label and pretend they're not.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[javilon]

In other news, the shit of all countries stinks. Getting into a pissing contest over who is worse to prove oneself's luck as better is pointless and destructive.

Agreed. But pointing at individual policies that can improve things and are done better in one country than in another can help to compare options.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[epyT-R]

It's not 'free'. You pay for it. Is it a good deal? You might think so. What about the people who don't? Why do swedes come to the US for complicated procedures? Because the waiting lists can be months long in sweden. Not so here...at least not yet. The jury's still out on obamacare.

The cost of that downtime gets wrapped into the costs of the goods and services your employer provides since they cannot legally doc your paycheck (I assume). It is not free. The problem is that someone else is deciding what you need and how much you should pay for it. Some of this might be warranted, but I think it's going way too far when governments attempt bans or taxes on anything and everything that might cost these forcibly imposed state run programs money. I like deciding my own cost/benefit analyses. I can't do that when I'm tied down by the 'needs of the many' in ever growing numbers of cases.

Your statements about political correctness are examples of 'framing the narrative.' Speaking out against people who want to kill you because you happen to be the target their religion dictates as the enemy is not 'inciting hate,' nor is tolerance the same as never challenging peoples' convictions in ways that might upset them. Even the term 'inciting hate' implies that the speaker is responsible for others' feelings when every adult is supposed to be responsible for their own feelings and actions. This discourages people from growing some thicker skin (IE true tolerance) for opinions that are different from theirs and makes them dependent on government to be their 'big brother' and protect them. Lack of skin also makes them more likely to lash out irrationally when exposed.

I think most people misunderstand equality thanks to the newspeak definition thrown around by politicians. Equality is supposed to mean equal access to opportunity along with responsibility. Unfortunately, most left wing definitions have a rather lopsided distribution. Once it decides who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed, it encodes gross assumptions into the legal code, leaving the 'oppressed' with most of the benefit, and the 'oppressors' with most of the responsibility regardless of the individual situation. This is identity politics at work. The lawyers pouring out of the left-indoctrinated ivy league universities are already tainted before they serve their first days on the job which ensures that the law will never be free of bigotry.

why should I keep it to myself? Because you don't agree with it? The left are all about tolerance and 'diversity' until someone challenges them on the logic behind their ideology. Then they become as dogmatic and censorious as the westboro baptist church would love to be if it had the power. I am open minded enough to consider new (and in this case, not so new) ideas, but I also try to stay grounded enough to evaluate them as objectively as I can. I realize most europeans don't really understand america either, but that doesn't stop them from passing judgments and spewing criticisms...and that's fine.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Bert64]

A good proportion of the danger is caused by those drugs being illegal...
When you buy alcohol from a legitimate source, you know that there are laws regulating what can be sold... When you buy illegal drugs from a guy on the street you have no idea how they were produced, or what other chemicals are mixed in with them.

The same thing happens with counterfeit alcohol, you get various industrial alcohols which are intended for industrial use and not human consumption, as well as other noxious chemicals mixed in, and these illegally produced alcohols are often far more dangerous than the regulated shop bought stuff.

If other drugs were legal, there would be legal sources where the ingredients are known and regulated so they would be safer for the users. You'd completely gut the illegal drugs market as there would be significantly less demand and far less profit. The stigma of drug use would be gone, so users would be more likely to seek help, police resources could be diverted to other things, drug prices would be lower so addicts would be less desperate (less likely to commit other crimes and more likely to get help) and there would be tax revenue coming in from the sale of drugs.

Crime rates would be down, not only because drug possession would no longer be illegal but also the crimes *caused* by drugs such as people stealing to fund their habit, and violence between drug dealers.

The only people who wouldn't benefit from such a setup are those who currently profit from selling drugs on the black market.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think everyone can judge for themselves what kind of opinion this is.
75% tax ? Do you expect to be taken serious ?
Sweden has a non-socialist, politically right, government for the last 7 years. And they have lowered the taxes every year.
You just have no idea what you are talking about.
In USA, freedom is only for the rich. In Sweden, everyone is free.
A Swede.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Spad]

Well sure, if you're dumb enough to pay tax on the money your company is paying you in salary as well as paying income tax on it then you probably are paying a 75% effective tax rate.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[iserlohn]

Hum... /Looks at a map of the mid-west, poverty rates and descent.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[AmiMoJo]

Actually it is because of free childcare. When even the poorest people can get access to high quality care for their children, giving them time to work while not letting their children be neglected or miss out on those crucial early years development, it tends to improve their children's life chances greatly. That in turn reduces the chance that those children will turn to crime as an alternative to a law abiding life, because they feel they have some change to make something of themselves and were not abandoned by society.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Opportunist]

Where does the "if it's available, more people will take it" myth come from? When you listen to reports from people who were around when prohibition came into existence (which is getting harder since they tend to die off of old age), the very fact that alcohol was forbidden was part of the appeal and since it was anything but hard to get access to it (much like illegal drugs today), it was not only easy to get but also some "stick it to the man" action.

Be honest. Assume for a moment that you have ready access to Heroin. It's right there in front of you, on the table, and its use is legal. Would you pick up the kit and shoot a load of it in your vein? My guess would be that you don't. Like any sane person. Why the fuck would you want to inject something into your body that is not potentially but near certainly lethal in the long run?

I agree that it's a good idea to keep it out of the hands of kids. That's a given. Kids are easily influenced and peer pressure is hardest on them. But if anyone above the age of 18 or for all I care 21 reaches for a drug, it's certainly not because his train of thought goes "Hmm, it's Tuesday, let's try to shoot Heroin into my body".

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Opportunist]

I guess we should thank the US healthcare system, or the lack of it, for making this show possible.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Opportunist]

Well, probably not. Because if the customer is used to insane prices, the prices would only be lowered so much to ensure that customers buy it. Especially if someone was fast enough to patent the crap.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Opportunist]

Well, it should be kinda trivial to stop them from growing coke, right?

Re:Those damn socialist!

[3.5 stripes]

Most people that spend their time chasing that truly fucked up feeling are not doing it due to addiction, but to ESCAPE from the fucked up world that surrounds them. As for moderate usage of "heavy drugs" have a look at victorian society, heroin and other opiate use was rampant, yet strangely enough, many were addicted, but since it wasn't illegal people were not doing stupid things to get their next fix.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[3.5 stripes]

Most of those drugs would not exist today (especially bath salts) if there wasn't a prohibition on natural (or at least known) substances, the demand is there, but illegality keeps the supply very low, and people move in to fill the demand.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[pitchpipe]

But the one drug that is no longer prohibited is now the worst offender of all?

Did he use too many words? Maybe not sound-bite-y enough?

It is a fact that different drugs have different levels of harm. I know, I know, hard to fit that idea into a black and white world.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[ColdWetDog]

There is a large volume of 'soft' hard drug use in the world. Do you think every kilo of cocaine goes to someone who eventually ends up in jail? The problem is that the highly addictive drugs (like alcohol) get a sizable minority of users falling over into the 'abuse' category (where it demonstrably messes up your life, either by direct physical consequences or social or legal issues).

It is impossible to pin down how many users turn to abusers with cocaine, heroin and meth and the like, but if you use alcohol as a prototypic dangerous drug, it's around 10% - significant but a minority. Now, the question for the student is - does this represent a legal or medical (or just a social) problem?

Quiz next period.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[ultranova]

Meth addicts don't only do stupid things just to get to the next fix. What they do while on meth is pretty stupid too. That's where the comparison between "hard drugs" and alcohol fails.

Just out of curiosity: have you ever actually seen a drunk person?

In any case, you could always restrict the sale of some substance to a licensed establishment, and have them require an agreement to stay on the premises while under influence as a condition of sale. Licensed opium dens, in other words. This would also allow monitoring of usage, and medical intervention in case of addiction.

Is there such a thing as non-binge/moderate meth usage?

Probably, since Silk Road stayed online for several years despite needing a considerable amount of trouble to use.

I've never heard of that with meth (or cocaine, or heroin, for example), but please show me some evidence otherwise if it exists. I think it's because the effect is stronger and more addictive than alcohol, so users pretty instantly start going for the totally-fucked-up feeling rather than the moderate feeling.

Well, the whole concept of random drug testing only makes sense if you assume that a significant fraction of users are able to perform their work at acceptable level despite using one, which implies they are moderating their usage.

Also, some "hard" drugs are actually self-regulating; for example, according to Wikipedia, LSD causes such a rapid built-up of tolerance it's not possible to use it regularly.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[EdIII]

I get your point about the profit, however, getting people to stop growing weed is easy.

Do you raise your own chickens for eggs and meat? Do you grow your own vegetables? Probably not. Do you go to the store and buy premium organic vegetables on occasion? Do you shop for the best meat? I do.

If weed does become legal it will be an issue with quality. It really is not all that easy to grow weed with high quality results, and it takes money to do so.

Most people are lazy. If they can go down to the store and buy it versus the hard work and financial investment of growing it, I think they will buy it cheaply instead. It will be cheap. I mean it's WEED.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[AcidPenguin9873]

Just out of curiosity: have you ever actually seen a drunk person?

Yes, of course. But did you read the next couple sentences of my post? I've seen alcohol users drunk, but I've also seen many, many alcohol users NOT drunk, and as I stated, the vast majority of alcohol users I've seen have not been drunk. What I haven't heard much about is moderation in meth users. Every time I hear about meth (which, like I acknowledged in my post, is not much), I hear about meth heads being super high and totally messed up.

In any case, you could always restrict the sale of some substance to a licensed establishment, and have them require an agreement to stay on the premises while under influence as a condition of sale. Licensed opium dens, in other words. This would also allow monitoring of usage, and medical intervention in case of addiction.

Sure. You realize though that China figured out that even with legal opium dens, it was still bad to have a good fraction of the population addicated to it?

What I'm asking for is non-anecdotal studies on the addiction and abuse rates of the drugs everyone is proposing to legalize. If the addiction and/or abuse rates are too high, then I'm contending that legalizing them is still bad for society. You've trade one set of problems (black market drug trade, drug crime, etc.) for a different set (a good chunk of your population is whacked out on whatever drugs are now legal) and it's not an obvious call to me that the problems you introduce with legalization are actually superior.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[ultranova]

I like deciding my own cost/benefit analyses. I can't do that when I'm tied down by the 'needs of the many' in ever growing numbers of cases.

The good side of living in a society is that you get Internet, shopping malls, the merchandise there, food, clothes, electricity, roads, people who patrol those roads and keep them safe from bandits, etc. etc. The bad side is that your personal interests may conflict with those of others and don't always trump them. After all, you might be the center of your world but to everyone else you're just one of the faceless "many" in "the needs of the many", and shouldn't expect them to care more about your interests than you care about theirs. Which is something you seem to not have quite grasped, since why else would you state the obvious?

In other words, grow up.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[almechist]

Meth addicts don't only do stupid things just to get to the next fix. What they do while on meth is pretty stupid too. That's where the comparison between "hard drugs" and alcohol fails. Is there such a thing as non-binge/moderate meth usage? There is such a thing as non-binge alcohol usage, where someone has one or two drinks with dinner and feels a little relaxed and isn't totally messed up. I would say that's the vast majority of alcohol usage. I've never heard of that with meth (or cocaine, or heroin, for example), but please show me some evidence otherwise if it exists. I think it's because the effect is stronger and more addictive than alcohol, so users pretty instantly start going for the totally-fucked-up feeling rather than the moderate feeling.

Don't have much time so out of the drugs you mention I will tackle only cocaine. Back in the disco era of the '70s, the casual use of cocaine had become so prevalent that the President of the United States commissioned a panel of experts to research the dangers of cocaine usage. The outcome of that research was eventually published as a so-called "White Paper" by the Carter administration, and I remember well the conclusion they came to, which was that cocaine is primarily, and I'm quoting pretty much exactly here, "a harmless recreational drug". And guess what, back then, before crack arrived, that's exactly what it was for the vast majority of users. I need hardly add that without prohibition the very idea of crack would probably never have occurred to anyone.

So there you have it. It's true, look it up.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[zsau]

Um, it's seriously easy to make booze. You get a bunch of fruit, juice it, make bread, and then ignore the juice for a couple of weeks. What, it's illegal to have food go off now? It's impossible to prohibit that.

How do you get meth or heroin? Heroin comes from specific plants, but you don't just eat the plants whole, and even if you did many countries ban all sorts of plants; here, Scottish Thistle can't be planted; a hundred kilometres over, it must be removed.

The fact that prohibition failed in the case of alcohol is not evidence that prohibition is impossible. The fact that prohibition of meth is incomplete is also not evidence that we shouldn't try it, any more than the prohibition of rape is incomplete means we shouldn't try.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[cas2000]

you fool! don't let facts get in the way of your enjoyment of a good crypto-racist joke.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[ultranova]

Yes, of course. But did you read the next couple sentences of my post?

Yes, I quoted and answered them right in the next paragraph. And repeat myself below.

I've seen alcohol users drunk, but I've also seen many, many alcohol users NOT drunk, and as I stated, the vast majority of alcohol users I've seen have not been drunk. What I haven't heard much about is moderation in meth users. Every time I hear about meth (which, like I acknowledged in my post, is not much), I hear about meth heads being super high and totally messed up.

Because meth is illegal, a person who's using it doesn't advertize the fact. So how would you recognize anyone who used it in moderation?

You've committed a classical selection bias statistical error.

Sure. You realize though that China figured out that even with legal opium dens, it was still bad to have a good fraction of the population addicated to it?

Yes. Do you realize said opium dens were run by the British with the specific goal of selling as much opium as possible, and as such didn't have any of the safeguards I proposed? Or that few people are hell-bent on getting themselves addicted, so safer alternatives could be developed after lifting the stigma?

What I'm asking for is non-anecdotal studies on the addiction and abuse rates of the drugs everyone is proposing to legalize.

Start here.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[AcidPenguin9873]

Because meth is illegal, a person who's using it doesn't advertize the fact. So how would you recognize anyone who used it in moderation?

I wouldn't, of course. As I've acknowledge three times now, I'm no expert on meth usage. But we have all sorts of data on usage for all sorts of illegal drugs. Where is the data on casual meth usage? This is now the third time I've asked for it.

And please don't wikipedia-link me stupid crap. That's a Slashdot addiction that has got to stop.

Do you realize said opium dens were run by the British with the specific goal of selling as much opium as possible, and as such didn't have any of the safeguards I proposed?

So in your meth dens, the dens would not be run with the intent to sell as much meth as possible? Is that how a licensed liquor establishment (a bar) operates?

Start here [wikipedia.org].

That link has a chart that lists heroin and cocaine (two drugs I called out as bad candidates for legalization) as very harmful. It lists meth as more harmful than alcohol. It has no information on addiction rate. It does have information on how dependent an addict is on the drug.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[zsau]

If it's any consolation, in these parts Scandinavia and Sweden are typically used as positive examples, and I don't think it's occurred to most people to use them badly (altho I've seen the far-right examples on the internets).

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Bob_Who]

Well sure, if you're dumb enough to pay tax on the money your company is paying you in salary as well as paying income tax on it then you probably are paying a 75% effective tax rate.

And if you're stupid enough to believe "apples and oranges" methodologies of taxation calculation is an absolute measure of how national macroeconomics can effectively manipulate tax liability, then you overlook most of the equation. Whether willful ignorance or devout kool-aid swigger, how can one overlook all of the variables we chose not to consider. Taxation is but one manipulated variable that is MEANINGLESS if you fail to look at the WHOLE economic dynamic. But please go ahead with a delusional oversimplification of an even 75% rate of funny money in the vacuum between your ears just to be a righteous fundamentalist. Go ahead and fight for your fair tax rate while overlooking any nation's complete reign on monetary values, market manipulation, price propaganda, supply glut and/or shortages, embargoes, sanctions, deregulation, lobbies, dirty tricks, lies, organized crime, black and grey markets, corporate espionage, customs, law enforcement, TSA, border patrol, fences, war on drugs, planned obsolescence, decaying infrastructure, jammed highways, ruined schools, jails jails jails, and national defense.... well then you sound as stupid as the Tea Party pretends to be. You can pick any ol' number you want and I guarantee that it won't fix your perpetual and frustrated economic irrelevance in this funny money poker game of democracy, capitalism, and free will in the 21st Century. Obsess all you want on one variable, and watch it become completely irrelevant before your very eyes. The meaning of life and cure for all ills should be so simple, so black and white, so righteously graced by the divine... "We're number .... " whatever.

We continue to argue these inconsequential points as if it has bearing on the results. What a bunch of numb skulls we've become when politics has reduced society to neutered fanboys' irrelevant cross town rivalry in a game of fool-ball. Who cares who wins in a game that doesn't really matter. It comes down to how we live our lives here together on earth. Nothing more or less. A fool's folly, no matter the taxes.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[LunaticTippy]

Back in the 50s tons of people took amphetamines for extra pep or to lose a few pounds. Many millions of people took them moderately. The addiction potential was there, but you didn't see the horrible social effects until the legal source dried up and bikers started selling crank.

Re:Those damn socialist!

[Roger Wilcox]

Wait. So, prohibition is bad. But the one drug that is no longer prohibited is now the worst offender of all? Me thinks you need to rethink that argument.

You obviously don't understand what GP is getting at. The argument you present above is nonsense.

GP posits two separate points:

• 1. Alcohol use causes more damage than the use of other drugs.
• 2. Prohibition is bad.

These points are related only insofar as alcohol is a drug and drugs are prohibited.

What you missed: alcohol caused our society even more trouble than it currently does under prohibition. There are many reasons for this, but the chief issue is that prohibition simply doesn't work. People will do what people want to do, and under prohibition of alcohol they did. There was demand for booze and because there was no legal supply, a black market emerged to meet that demand.

GP is pointing out that this black market still exists for other drugs, and that many of the problems society faces in relation to those drugs is a direct result of prohibitionist policy.

The fact that alcohol use is more damaging than the use of other drugs illustrates how silly it is that we continue to prohibit other substances, even as the black markets and prisoner costs created by the prohibition continue to compound the problems that we face.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Todd Palin]

How is this working out for the USA?

Remember when...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when American schoolchildren were taught that communism was evil (and by extension, socialism was suspect) because the Soviet Union, had more prisoners per capita than the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave?

All those precious moments of a Cold War youth, and all I have to show for them is that I saw them go down the memory hole.

Re:Remember when...

[sumdumass]

No, i do not remember that and you do not either unless your teachers were morons.

Communist first got a bad name in the US durring the 1919 failed attemp to overthrow yhe US government. After the communist party was broken up and most foreing member were deported, the remaining members went underground or joined the socialist party. Then WWII happened and afterwards the openly communist in Europe joined the socialists due to a large stigma communism had right after the war and with the start of the vold war.

If you actually had a teacher mentioning something about Russian jails, it was most likely about how lots of people were jailed for speaking thier minds(free speech) which a lot fifferent then you think you heard.

Re:Remember when...

[H0p313ss]

[citation needed]

Re:Remember when...

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Worldwide Incarceration Rates 2008

If you want to see a TSA BDO in action, watch a 1982 Clint Eastwood movie. Clint nearly botches the mission when confronted by a KGB Behavioral Detection officer who's lying about his papers not being in order, when, in fact, they were always in order.

Line that could only be uttered in the Cold War: (Soviet dissident scientist to American infiltrator Eastwood): "...you are an American. You are a free man. I am not. There is a difference."

Another scene that I thought was only possible behind the unfree part of the Iron Curtain was the scene in which Pavel (Soviet dissident) and Gant (Eastwood) are stopped at an internal checkpoint. They're waived through the checkpoint, and only afterwards does Pavel tell Gant that the reason they were waved through was so that the KGB could tail them while waiting for a film-and-paper facial recognition algorithm figured out who they were and what they were up to.

Today, the US has DHS-manned internal checkpoints that do this within seconds.

I can forgive your skepticism. You might not be an American. You might be a free man. There is a difference.

Re:Remember when...

[CarbonShell]

And, as if most of the later 'Communists' or 'Socialist' governments really had to do anything with their names.
It is like what happened after the French revolution, it started up good and then, well people are people and they want power, so the Republic became an Empire and the Communists/Socialists became Dictatorships.
But to keep the people in line, they kept on pushing the 'core values'.

And it seems that we can add Democracies to that list, as they seem to become Corporatocracies/Oligarchies.

Re:Remember when...

[feral-troll]

And it seems that we can add Democracies to that list, as they seem to become Corporatocracies/Oligarchies.

...with lots of enthusiastic help from market Capitalists. That leaves all participants in the Cold war with a fatally flawed system of government.

Re:Remember when...

[H0p313ss]

Not being American, my study of post WWI history mostly focused on my own country and the impacts of the war on Europe, especially the effect of the punitive treaty of Versailles on the economy of Germany. (Which as Churchill observed is one of the primary causes of WWII)

I think your whole analysis is somewhat suspect, but I was specifically referring to:

1919 failed attemp to overthrow yhe (sic) US government

I can find lots of references to the communists attempts to organize political parties and how they were (probably illegally) targeted by the state, but I have never heard of any attempts to actually overthrow the government. There were mass arrests and deportations, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support the statement "1919 failed attemp to overthrow yhe(sic) US government" other than that's what they were accused of.

Source please?

Re:Remember when...

[poity]

What does this have to do with Communism?

Sweden is a successful free market capitalist country, and has benefited greatly from advantageous geographic/demographic makeup which gives it abundant land and ocean resources for a low population, along with geographical isolation from both domineering regional players and low skilled immigration. It funnels a few more percentage points of GDP into social welfare than its contemporaries, but that inflow of wealth would not have been possible without the entrepreneurial spirit and private property laws which are antithetical to Communism.

Re:Remember when...

[sumdumass]

Look into the first red scare. You are likely going to need to find some old history books. Wikipedia seems to be sanitized of calling it a revolt but gives details of the events surounding it.

Why wikipedia is sanitized i don't know. It is no secret that the same tactics and the same people, or origins of the people revolted in russia, germany, and other countries. They actually had a member of one of the foreign orgs state to congress that they wanted to install a stalin like dictator in the us.

Re:Remember when...

[H0p313ss]

So still no source... let me know when you find one.

Re:Remember when...

[sumdumass]

As I said, I'm not spoon feeding you so look it up yourself.

Or you could sit there and remain purposely ignorant then complain about the world not being they way you imagine it. It doesn't matter much to me.

Repulsive! Government Waste!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

This is the sort of thing you see in countries deeply afflicted with the European-socialist culture of dependency and waste. First, the state wastefully builds a bunch of white-elephant infrastructure projects, rather than embarking on an Efficient private contract; because it's somebody else's money they are spending.

Then, when those projects stand empty, the state just expects somebody to give them customers (we worked so hard, don't we deserve to succeed?) and then throws up its hands in limp-wristed failure and admits defeat, rather than going out there and making customers through good, old-fashioned, hard work and brutal overcriminalization of all sorts of petty offenses.

This, my friends, is what a sick society looks like. I bet they try to hide their shame by cooking up a bunch of fancy statistics about how good their human development index rankings, life expectancy, and similar ivory-tower nonsense are; but you can't hide moral sickness this profound.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[dyingtolive]

The most disturbing thing to me is that, on a different site, that comment could be construed as both, serious AND insightful.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[EdIII]

What is profoundly sickening is that you would be cheered on by a tearful crowd in some places right now...

(I'm thinking Iowa)

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[MacTO]

They clearly need to dump more money into university research on increasing criminal activity.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[HalfFlat]

There are countries far more socialist than Sweden that have a prison and murder rate per capita far higher than the US.

Well, no. No, there isn't. Because the US is in fact the world leader in per capita incarceration rate. The US is, in this metric, really number one.

Murder is another story. If you compare the US though with its economic peers, you have to go a long way down the per-capita GDP axis before you find another country with a higher per-capita homicide rate.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[clarkkent09]

The US has a higher incarceration rate due to harsher sentences, not necessarily due to higher crime rate. Overall crime rate in UK and Germany (far better comparison to the US than Sweden) are higher than in the US. US has lower burglary and robbery rates than Australia or Canada. Take 20 worst gangland ghettos out of the equation and US compares favorably to most major developed countries in any crime statistic. Whatever the reasons for the harsh sentences (in particular for drug use), which is the true reason for the US record incarceration rate, they are not obviously related to welfare state which was the actual point of my post.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[dyingtolive]

You're totally right, I haven't seen them. I'm talking out my ass. Let me look at them. Thank god we have Wikipedia for these things.

Sweden: -17.632
United States: 87.859

Wow. Yup, just like you said. Theirs is negative and the US's is so much higher. What was I thinking? Hey, I gotta read up more about this Debt to GDP thingy so I stop making an ass of myself and be smart too. Good thing I still have wikipedia open:

A low debt-to-GDP ratio indicates an economy that produces and sells goods and services sufficient to pay back debts without incurring further debt. Governments aim for low debt-to-GDP ratios, but geopolitical and economic considerations - including interest rates, war, recessions, and other variables - influence the borrowing practices of a nation and the choice to incur further debt.

...huh.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[clarkkent09]

Obviously we are talking per capita crime rate.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[Poorcku]

I don't get these numbers because I am no economist. So AC says low debt/gdp is good because it doesn't incur further debt (A low debt-to-GDP ratio indicates an economy that produces and sells goods and services sufficient to pay back debts without incurring further debt) and gives sweden as an example. Wiki says the US is on the other side of the scale and that is, again... good?

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[dunkelfalke]

Not just due to harsher sentences but also due to harsher crimes. The US murder rate is four times as high as the UK murder rate and almost 6 times as high as the German one.

The number of drug offences is way higher in Germany, that skews the statictics, as you can see in this comparison

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[dyingtolive]

I'm not an economist either, but the bottom paragraph of mine is from wikipedia on debt to GDP ratio. In a nutshell, it appears to say "lower is better". Since it's a fraction, and lower is better, I'm assuming "Debt / GDP = Ratio". For Sweden to have a negative ratio, that would imply that one of those variables would have to be negative. I'm guessing they don't have a negative GDP, so it sounds like they're buying more debt than they're selling.

Regarding my comments on how good it is, I was just being sarcastic as hell.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[Xest]

So in 2011, the US had a debt to GDP ratio of 100%. It had a debt of about $14tn and it made $14tn in a year, so, if it dedicated all it's income that year to paying off debt it could've cleared it's debt in a single year.

In practice though you can't do that as you have to pay your military, police, fix roads, and so on. A debt to GDP ratio of 50% would've meant it could pay off it's debt in half a year.

A negative debt to GDP ratio means you have no debt, and you're putting whatever percentage of your income into your savings account (or whatever - probably a sovereign wealth fund or something).

So Swedish GDP is about $400bn per year IIRC, and if they're putting what, 18% I think you said of that into savings each year it means they're putting $72bn a year into their piggy bank.

In contrast at 80% debt to GDP ratio it'll take the US 8 years to pay off it's debt if it pays even 10% of it's GDP each year towards that (and spends the other 90% of it's GDP on wars, Tea Parties and Obamacares or whatever the fuck it likes to get upto nowadays).

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[Xest]

"Overall crime rate in UK and Germany (far better comparison to the US than Sweden) are higher than in the US."

Not true any more. This idea was based on data from over a decade ago. Nowadays the UK is far more peaceful than the US, and seems to have the lowest levels of crime it's possibly ever had in modern history. It's now one of the more peaceful nations in Europe and Europe on average does much better than the US:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24566994

Even where the UK does have high figures (i.e. sexual offences) a lot of that is historical too (i.e. offences from the 60s, 70s, 80s) only now coming to light and being reported so high figures there doesn't mean you're likely to suffer sexual assault nowadays.

Re:Repulsive! Government Waste!

[dyingtolive]

That makes sense. Thank you for that.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Anonymous Coward]

Quoting newsmax? Way to discredit yourself.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[gl4ss]

but why would you if you're paid per prisoner and per processed "customer"?

Solution

[jxander]

As an American, I'm sure we could let them have some of ours. We have way more prisoners than we know what to do with.

Re:Solution

[CarbonShell]

How about fixing the problems in stead of moving them around? And by fixing I mean doing a complete overhaul, including society.
Release all the 3rd-Strikers. Don't incarcerate people for having trivial amounts of drugs. Then work on real rehabilitation. Focus your justice system fully on the really bad people.
You are caught in a vicious cycle where people are unable to break from. Help them instead of kicking them and leaving them to fend for themselves, as the 'easiest' thing to do is crime.

OTOH our neighbors are fine with jailing a MS pati

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, our neighbors to the West are fine with jailing a MS patient for using pot to help her with her condition: http://www.thelocal.se/20080125/9775

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Suiggy]

It's not my fault the vast majority of yellow press will avoid reporting on anything that goes contrary to the politically correct narrative.

well in the usa people went to prison for healthca

[Joe_Dragon]

As they where locked out of other choices.

Also some homeless people go in and out of jails as well.

Outsource it to the Americans

[renzhi]

Why closing them? They should outsource/rent to the Americans, I'm sure they could make some money and create more jobs at the same time.

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

American prisoners would fight to the death for a stay in Swedish prisons. I'm not sure on which side that I would stand...

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[whistlingtony]

"A couple of airplanes full of American prisoners could probably take over Sweden."

Well, that's obviously not true. But assuming it was, what would that tell us? What would that prove?

I think your statement tells us more about you than about Sweden. And I think it tells us that you're an idiot.

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[dryeo]

You might want to look at a map sometime. Sweden is a ways away from Switzerland.

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[Tom]

That exactly is the point: The difference is that Sweden is running its prisons as sadly necessary government institutions, and not as commercial enterprises.

This simple step reverses the incentives.
The american prison system actually has an interest in more crime, more criminals, more prison sentences, because that equates to more profit.
The swedish prison system has an interest in less crime, less criminals and prison sentences only where adequate, because that equates to less costs.

For a civilized society, one of these is perverse. I'll let you guess which one and you only get one try.

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[Areyoukiddingme]

"What? You mean professional wrestling ISN'T real?? You lie!" --Anonymous Coward

Re:Outsource it to the Americans

[dryeo]

Always good to check posted links :) Having conscription has a lot to say for it, especially for nations that aren't always at war. I'd feel a lot better about people having been trained in the use of weapons if they own them rather then treating them as toys.

mental health

[Joe_Dragon]

does Sweden have mental health centers to help people unlike the us that shout some down and the people just moved to prisons.

Re:mental health

[Frobnicator]

Yes, mental health is covered by the government-run health system.

On one hand, as a country Sweden has solved a great many social woes by implementing broad social care and welfare programs.

On the other hand, they have the highest tax rate in the world in order to sustain all the social services. National taxes alone account for nearly 50% of an individual's income, with regional and local taxes potentially adding another 30%.

In recent years the social services have rapidly been switching to private for-profit models and the costs have started to skyrocket. So there is that side to consider.

Re:mental health

[dryeo]

The real question is what is the standard of living like after paying those taxes, including how much net is left.
If your income goes up with the taxes, eg make 50% more before taxes, then it's not so bad. Same with if expenses drop so even though you have less money, you need less money as you don't have to pay for certain things such as quality health care.

Re:mental health

[Anonymous Coward]

National taxes alone account for nearly 50% of an individual's income, with regional and local taxes potentially adding another 30%.

Your numbers are kind of off unless you're bending over backwards trying to make Swedish taxes seem high by adding up sales tax, income tax, taxes your employer pays and so on like some Swedish neo-liberals like to do in order to be able to say that the average Swede pays 80% (or whatever) of their income in taxes.

Yes, sales tax here is pretty high (25% for a lot of things) and income tax for most people is in the 30-40% range but it's not some dystopian society where your paycheck (eh, direct bank transfer, no one uses checks around here and no one has for a very long time) goes almost exclusively to the government.

Re:mental health

[Anonymous Coward]

Go home and do your homework again..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden

The tax-pressure is just above 50% (but it's the company that pays 20% of that so you only see ~30-32% yourself) .. But for those extra 20% (over the taxes in the US for example) we get free healthcare and even paid sick-leave by the goverment if you catch something that takes a long time to get rid of and then we have really generous social security..

On top of this we also have things like tax-reduction when buying some services like someone to clean your home (to make people hire people that pay taxes) and when doing renovation of your home you can deduct money for the workers that do it, but not the material..
The deductions are up to 50000SEK each and that will lower your tax.. (ie 50000*0.3 == reduced tax for most people)..

Sure we have a incremental taxes also so if you earn more than a specific amount ( do the research yourself ) you get to pay higher taxes on the amount above that..

The average pay in Sweden is ~28000SEK (number from 2012) and you get to keep ~70% of that...

Then we have the healthcare.. It has NOT gone up due to privitization... The private companies compete with public companies for the same amount of money for the same amount of services... Ie all they do is optimize the routines to be able to make a bit of profit but this also results in that they will lower their offer next year to try and get the deal making public hospitals work harder to stay in business.. Just go do your homework.. There are tons of information on the subject if you manage to actually do a search on the subject.

So again... go and do your homework...

Re:mental health

[CBravo]

And it really does not matter who pays for healthcare (or any other common cost post), whichever is more efficient. Taxes are bad only when it hides a government which is (more) inefficient (than businesses).

Re:mental health

[dryeo]

Generally government is always more efficient then private business, at least in large projects such as health care as no need to make a profit, no excessive paperwork such as results with Doctors having to bill multiple organizations and perhaps fight over the billing when the other organization is motivated to pay out as little as possible as well as economy of scale, easier to get good deals when purchasing millions of dollars worth of whatever.
Of course like all generalizations there are many exceptions, governments that don't try due to ideological beliefs, businesses that take advantage of the government, governments that are in bed with businesses and rather then businesses giving cost of living raises, the government gives tax breaks so business can make higher profits.
I'm sure that there are many more exceptions but the important thing is to have a government that tries to serve the people rather then campaign contributors, businesses that offer great jobs after the politician leaves politics etc.

Re:mental health

[cas2000]

saying that government is inherently inefficient is as monstrously nonsensical as saying that all women are illogical and think only of shoes and shopping.

i.e. it's a stupid lie that only prejudiced fuckwits believe.

Re:Start jailing therapists

[_merlin]

Yes, we should start jailing therapists. Their extortionate "professional rates" suck the lifeblood out of the economy. People would be better off spending this money on hookers and gigolos who give guaranteed relief. Oh wait, not "therapists" but "the rapists". Well, if people were more inclined to hire hookers, that problem could be solved, too!

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

better if the US had a homogeneous culture

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[muphin]

he could have worked there :p

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[cheater512]

Yeah but you were dumb enough to go there to begin with.

Oh and I'm pretty sure everyone says that after being in prison.
They ALL hope they don't get caught next time. :P

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Microlith]

Yeah, right, IT'S A CONSPIRACY! Come back when you have a source more credible than Newsmax.

This is a bad idea

[SlovakWakko]

Don't mess with the equilibrium. Less criminals means less need for cops means more unemplyed cops who usually go into organized crime means more criminals means you need to hire more cops means less crime means... - OMG, it's just a way to get the whole population into organized crime!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Damned socialists!

[GodfatherofSoul]

That's what happens when you don't let the Prison Industrial Complex freedom-speak with their campaign donation dollars.

Here's An Idea...

[Greyfox]

Why don't we outsource our prisons to Sweden? They get to keep their prisons and I bet they can implement them for a lot less expense than American prisons! Then everyone's a winner!

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[whistlingtony]

It is your fault for quoting Newsmax. :D

Seriously, look a the link itself. "europe-immigration-muslim-obama". I mean.... come on... sheesh.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Anonymous Coward]

Terrible as this is, when I see the words 'rape' and 'Sweden' together, the first thing I think is: 'insurance scam'.

In the mid 90's, I was told by a Greek colleague that, whilst desirable, female Swedish tourists were avoided like the plague by the local Greek males thanks to their propensity for crying 'rape'.
Turned out it was a long standing scam, they took out rape insurance prior to their holiday, suckered some local lothario at their holiday destination, cried rape, got the lothario arrested, then claimed on the policy back in Sweden.

I see from a quick Google search, that this is still probably going on.

I've no doubt that some of the stuff pointed to in your links is true, we have a similar problem here in Britain with sections of the Muslim population, as an example, Google: Muslim paedophile rings Britain.

[FWIW, the existence of these 'rings' was 'common knowledge' at least as far back as the early 90's - I was told about them as an example of the 'depraved' behaviour of 'British' Muslims which appalled a number of the foreign Muslim students at the University I worked in at the time (I won't even go into the skewed logic employed that 'as western women do not dress like women (burquas etc) they're not 'true' women', ergo we can do what we like with them as they're then in a category not covered by our religious rulebook.')
Amusingly (if I can use that word in this context), this was posited by the foreign Muslim students as an example of the corrupting influence of the West, and, please note, I'm not talking about rabid card carrying 'We hate the West' types - though considering what we've subsequently done to one of the countries that a number of them came from, I think that'll have changed to our detriment ].

Re:Start jailing therapists

[sumdumass]

I also want to know why so many people have a problem with rap music artists.

Re: false dichotomy in summary

[FishTankX]

But one has to recieve priority over the other.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[drhank1980]

Actually crime in the USA is also down.

I am not saying our extremely high incarceration rate is the primary cause for the reduction in crime. But in spite of what is commonly reported about America, crime is actually improving. I would expect if we did a similar reduction in sentences for drug offenders, and have some better support for those getting out of jail we would have gotten a bigger reduction probably at a lower cost, but being "soft on crime" does not help anyone win elections

end of scarcity

[globaljustin]

Cause more jobs = better economy as we all know.

right?

I understand what you're saying and i'm starting to become more sure about an idea that's been around for awhile...

I think the economic concept of ***scarcity*** itself is being rendered statistically irrelevant because of technology

technology is solving so many of our problems that we really don't **need** to work as much as we used to...

at least theoretically...right? or WTF else do we bother making and using these flaming gadgets?

look at food production...technology can become so efficient that it can always keep pace with demand...what then? wouldn't it be a crime **NOT** to give food freely?

we have the technology as humans to feed and clothe every living human in perpetuity now...strip away the B.S. and it is true

people talk of things like "divide and conquer" and "artificial scarcity" or "making a market" all the time, but I think we all need to reconsider **how much we are being held back as a species**

it has gotten really, really bad, IMHO...

**WHAT IF WE DON'T NEED TO WORK AS HARD ANYMORE???**

would your boss tell you that? what about the company that profits from the scarcity a particular technology solves?

technology has worked...it is solving most of our immediate problems...scarcity for the most basic essentials of human existence is no longer a evolutionary factor in modern countries to survival for most...the food is there...

as the trope goes, the problem is "human error" in this system...

Re:end of scarcity

[Neil Boekend]

If scarcity of current stuff ends we'll find new stuff to be scarce. That's how we work, it would just move from basic survival stuff to luxury goods. And that would be good.
However, it is more probable that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (unless something big happens). Thus the poor will not be able to afford a place to live, although food may be cheap enough to be almost free.

Re:end of scarcity

[ColdWetDog]

Will you please stop watching Star Trek reruns?

Sure

[mrwolf007]

But they just dont have enough space for all the NSA employees.

Better than McDonalds or Walmart

[dutchwhizzman]

Swedish prisoners have a better life in general than people in the USA in a minimum wage job. They get better housing, food and work hours, plus they get education, health care and all, so they have a chance to stay out of prison once their punishment is over. Bonus: they get to keep their voting rights after they are out, so they are still part of the democratic process that is the base of the laws that put them in prison in the first place.

Maybe it's time the USA starts looking at how Sweden gets this accomplished and use that as an inspiration to improve. If even the prisoners there have it better than over a quarter of the free people in the USA, you'd say there should be improvements to be found.

Re:Better than McDonalds or Walmart

[Shimbo]

Bonus: they get to keep their voting rights after they are out

I don't believe you need to qualify that: they get to keep their voting rights, period. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11674014

Re:fixed that for you...

[crutchy]

capitalism is extremely efficient at profiting from human misery

government is extremely efficient at creating human misery

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as rape insurance in Sweden. It is a Greek myth: http://www.thelocal.se/20110415/33232

Kind of the point

[Firethorn]

And those that go, shoudl go to be rehabilitated into civil society.

At least in this case I think the original AC had a very good point in this. A good capitalist will outsource when the result is cheaper and more effective. Sweden has shown the ability to rehabilitate around twice as effectively as the USA(20% recedivism vs 60% here, ergo 80% effective vs 40%), with about 1/3rd the sentence period.

So sending at least a portion of our prison population to the Swedish prisons, paying them the appropriate amounts of course, to do what they manage to do so effectively seems a very good way to rehabilitate them. At least until we send some US personnel over there to learn the appropriate methodology and bring it back.

Re:Kind of the point

[TrollstonButterbeans]

The US suffers a "inefficiency of scale" problem -- the idea of acting like a citizen.

Many of the continental European countries are more tightly bound in the human spirit and sense of identity and culture than the USA.

The USA suffers from "what's in it for me?" freeloaders and "what's in it for me?" capitalists and "what's in it for me?" politicians --- all of which miss grander and greater human concepts.

Although people in the USA generally have a lot of freedom and very little oversight ... and we don't get micromanaged like what happens in European countries ...

pros and cons, everyone wants the cake and eat it too ...

Re:Kind of the point

[SpectreBlofeld]

[i] Sweden has shown the ability to rehabilitate around twice as effectively as the USA(20% recedivism vs 60% here, ergo 80% effective vs 40%)[/i]

  I think an important point being overlooked in this discussion is an analysis of the conditions that drove the inmates to crime in the first place. How many crimes are committed by someone trying to callously shortcut the rules of society vs. someone down on their luck or just trying to survive? Perhaps there's nothing particularly special about the rehabilitation methods performed by the prisons, but instead, Sweden's done a top job of addressing the underlying issues.

  Also - and I have to bring it up - stupid-ass drug laws. If we can't legalize the mostly harmless recreational drugs out there, can we PLEASE stop locking people up for minor drug offenses, and instead fine them, like traffic violations (which are actually, you know, dangerous) and other civil infractions? Fines would actually help regulate the 'problem' while RAISING MONEY instead of needlessly locking up harmless people (destroying their lives in the process) which then becomes a gigantic drain on society due to the fact that we've now made them effectively wards of the state. It's fucking idiotic, man. Catch a guy smoking a joint? Slap him with a $150 ticket. No criminal record established, just show up and pay your fine and everything is golden. Don't slam his face into the pavement and seize his house and pull his children into state custody and ruin his reputation for the rest of his life, ensuring that when he finally gets out of prison, he'll turn to crime, because you've eliminated any and all chances that he'll magically fall into being a useful member of society after you've branded him for life. Nobody wants to hire the guy that just spent months in lockup on drug charges. The system we have here now does not 'rehabilitate' anyone. It brands them with a criminal record that they can never live down, often for minor charges. OF COURSE they turn to crime - even if what they were doing was harmless and not immoral in any way. They were convicted and served sentences and were told by everyone that they were a criminal and did criminal things. Why wouldn't they turn to crime when released? Everyone thinks they're a criminal anyway.

 

Re:Kind of the point

[Luckyo]

That's not what Sweden does though. It does jail people for drug offenses and it doesn't go tough on driving offenses. Please don't attach your preferences to someone else's success.

Re:Kind of the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much this. Someone caught for minor drug offenses will be sent to rehab, not to jail in Sweden.

That is however not the entire story. A recent study in Sweden made in Swedish prisons found that the prisoners were highly overrepresented when it came to suffering from ADHD. (63% compared to around 5% for the rest of the population.)
What this means is that even the really violent criminals that people generally think deserves to be in jail can be treated.
I think the study was extended to all Swedish jails earlier this year or something.
The early tests showed that by just giving a correct diagnosis and give the prisoner the option (It is a completely voluntary system.) to take medication for ADHD the previously violent criminal will magically transform into a contributing member of society instead of becoming a repeat offender.

Re:Kind of the point

[blackest_k]

Sweden does have a zero tolerance approach to drugs but it is much more than that, basic possession can get you a fine or imprisonment up to 6 months but the 6 months is a requirement for police to perform a body search. So in reality you'd probably get a fine. If children are involved well that raises the seriousness and is more likely to get you prison time. There are comprehensive residential drug treatment programs available and free too those who need them.

There is a bug difference in prison population between the USA who jails 750 out of 100,000 and sweden who jails just 84 around 23% of prison inmates are there for drugs offences but the average number of people locked up in sweden is around 4,100 total.
figures here are pulled from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden

Sweden isn't soft on drugs by any stretch but you are more likely to be treated rather than imprisoned. Sweden seems to be focussed on making its entire society productive and happy. Totally different from the American aim which seems to be look out for yourself and be sure not to stumble or your screwed. Trouble is just being honest isn't enough, you have to be healthy and lucky too. I say lucky because even having great genes doesn't stop you getting hit by a bus and crippled.

Sad thing is although there may be millions of Americans who can see how much their society fails them. The barriers to change seem pretty much impossible to overcome. The system fails Americans rich and poor. Even if your doing ok, whats to stop some crack head breaking in to your home? Ok you might kill him, but you are just as much let down as the crack head who tried to rob you.

   

Re:Kind of the point

[Bert64]

The problem with fines is that they disproportionately punish the poor, while the rich just consider them a cost of doing business.
Around here you see a lot of very expensive cars parked in handicap spaces, because to someone driving a 500k+ car the cost of the fine is cheaper than the inconvenience of having to park further away.
The exact same thing would happen with drugs, only those who are already having to commit other crimes in order to fund their habit will now need to commit more crime in order to pay for the fines as well.

Re:Kind of the point

[slashmatti]

... which then becomes a gigantic drain on society ...

Which is precisely the point. It's been long since any consideration to societal benefit was taken when it comes to the military-intelligence-police-prison-media-industrial-complex. At this point, it serves no other purpose than to enrich our oligarchs.

It's fucking idiotic, man.

Yes, from a societal point of view. But it is also profitable, for a select few. As a society, rather than accepting what are natural human behaviors and affording care to minimize societal detriments, we choose to reward people that take advantage of these behaviors and exploit weakness in men.

Profit at all costs, especially when they befall society as a whole rather than your own bottom line.

War Is A Racket is in need of a couple of addenda.

Re:Kind of the point

[stenvar]

The US suffers a "inefficiency of scale" problem -- the idea of acting like a citizen.

Which is why a lot of Americans would like to see more power returned to state and local governments, so that US states are much more like EU members.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

The fun part is that we LIKE that.

Take that compulsory health care thing. When we heard the US is going to get something like that, a good deal of us pretty much thought something along the lines of "finally, it's been about time their politicians came to their senses and did something for the ... wait, what? They do NOT want that?"

Quite frankly, we were incredibly surprised that there could possibly be any kind of resistance to that. I mean, sure, I'll probably spend more on my health care "tax" than I'll ever "get out" of it (at least I sure hope so!), but there are so many who are unfortunate enough to get more out of the deal than they could possibly afford. Worse, no private company would give them insurance and they'd probably die.

I think that's the "human spirit" you talk about.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

I think he means how many "social" things are pretty much compulsory here in Europe while they're very optional in the US. Health/accident/pension/unemployment insurance, all mandatory here. Among other things. And just like the US now fight tooth and nail to not get them (at least that's what the "obamacare" craze taught me), so would we fight tooth and nail if anyone dared to ponder considering talking about taken them from us.

Of course that means that, in the end, I get only about 60% of my actual wage, the rest goes to this tax and that healthcare and whatnot. And the more you earn, the closer you get to 50%. On the bright side, if you're earning minimum wage, your tax total isn't even close to 10% of your income. Not that you could possibly afford more...

A side effect of this is, though, that even the lowest income earners have a pension, healthcare and unemployment insurance. Since you cannot simply forgo it, your employer HAS to pay you enough to live AND prepare for unfortunate times.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

That's pretty much why I don't complain about our, from an US point of view certainly insane, tax level. Right now I pay around 40% of my income in tax for various things. Ok, it's not only tax, it's also healthcare, but what do I care, it's money I earn but don't get.

That's fine, though. Those 40% not only pay for my retirement, unemployment, healthcare and so on, it also pays some kind of social service for the crackhead so he knows he got something to lose and hitting me over the head on the street for the 20 bucks in my pocket just ain't worth it. I can actually go out at any time of the day in any part of my country's capital and not get mugged, robbed and killed. Can you?

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

That's why a lot of countries now move away from fixed fines to "daily rates". I.e. you pay depending on your income, and that fine is then 10, 30, 60, 90... days of your income. I.e. 30 days = 1 month's pay.

If you don't want to tell the court how much you make, that's fine. They'll simply estimate. Guess on what side they usually err if you let them guess.

Re:Kind of the point

[blackest_k]

that's not that much of a claim :) most places you won't get killed as a matter of routine.

pretty sure i would be safer in Dublin than London and I feel Washington and Moscow would be worse. Is crime worse in Washington or Moscow?

Re:Kind of the point

[Ogive17]

Can't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room, the US has a far more diverse population.. racially and culturally.

Re:Kind of the point

[nctritech]

What does this say to people who claim that ADHD is not a "real illness" or that it is merely "an excuse for bad behavior?"

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

Is crime worse in Washington or Moscow?

Is that a trick question? But easy to answer: Which town has more politicians?

Re:Kind of the point

[Rich0]

...you've eliminated any and all chances that he'll magically fall into being a useful member of society after you've branded him for life.

Honestly, I think public criminal records are a big problem.

My feeling is that the justice system should be primarily rehabilitative. Criminal records are anything but.

People should be incarcerated if they're too dangerous to walk out on the street, or if they can't be rehabilitated while having access to the streets. If somebody has been rehabilitated, then they are no longer a criminal, and they should not be interfered with. If they can't be trusted out in public without warning everybody that they're potentially dangerous, then they shouldn't be out in public in the first place.

I think that rehabilitating criminals so that they can re-integrate into society without being treated like criminals for the rest of their lives is just the morally right thing to do. However, if I were a selfish bastard I'd still think that it was the smart thing to do. Locking up criminals repeatedly costs me taxes. Having them out on the street committing crimes costs me taxes. Then when they're out if they can't get a job then they're not making any significant income and that means they're not paying taxes, which means I'm paying their share of the taxes, and they're probably even collecting social benefits of some kind, which also costs me taxes. The current US justice system is probably the most expensive way of handling criminals I could come up with, and we're all paying the bill for it. About the only people who come out ahead are the companies that run the prisons.

Re:Kind of the point

[metrix007]

Many of the continental European countries are more tightly bound in the human spirit and sense of identity and culture than the USA.

And what do you base this on? Your lengthy time spent in the USA? Or your idea of the USA without ever having been here?

Re:Kind of the point

[rasmusbr]

I've read that there has been a change in how drug-related crime is sentenced. Swedish judges and lay judges in the lowest courts (Tingsrätt) are increasingly sentencing drug-related criminals to parole instead of prison and shorter prison terms instead of longer ones. Apparently nobody knows why they are doing this, including the judges and lay judges themselves.

In any case, this could potentially explain why the prisons are emptying out, but the cumulative effect on the size of the prison population has not been quantified by anyone. Research needed.

Re:Kind of the point

[ausekilis]

Take that compulsory health care thing. When we heard the US is going to get something like that, a good deal of us pretty much thought something along the lines of "finally, it's been about time their politicians came to their senses and did something for the ... wait, what? They do NOT want that?"

I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher last weekend, he had (almost Mayor) Weiner on there, and while the guy may not be socially savvy, he at least has a pretty good political mind. My favorite quote was during the debate on Obamacare where the Republican Rep (name doesn't matter, they're all Republemmings these days and few think for themselves) was reciting his parties lines, and Weiner quipped "It was a Republican idea, the Democrats just implemented it. Why do you have so much hate for your own good ideas?" There was also a comment in there about the way the parties respond to things, Republicans have this trend of shutting down and fighting every action done by the Democrats (i.e. Obamacare, or any of Obama's policies for that matter), while Democrats may not agree with a Republican (i.e. Bush), they don't do the same level of shutdown and public outcry. Neither party is perfect, they all act like spoiled children who want to be the one to create that crayon picture that mom (history) puts up on the fridge for all to see.

It is an interesting view on our society though. We want everything for nothing, we elect people who claim they are for the people but often are anything but (e.g. furlough, twice this year alone), and capitalism, capitalism, capitalism. The intent for our government was by the people, for the people, and Senate recess was supposed to be so the Senators could go home and tend their crops, to see how the people they are representing are doing. Instead we get this popularity contest of rich people who know how to say what people want to hear, and are so disconnected from the reality of the poor that when something comes along whose intent is to help everyone, there is so much bickering and mud throwing that the people lose.

Re:Kind of the point

[anyanka]

And those that go, shoudl go to be rehabilitated into civil society.

At least in this case I think the original AC had a very good point in this. A good capitalist will outsource when the result is cheaper and more effective. Sweden has shown the ability to rehabilitate around twice as effectively as the USA(20% recedivism vs 60% here, ergo 80% effective vs 40%), with about 1/3rd the sentence period.

Which makes one wonder what the rate would be if one just did nothing – wouldn't be terribly surprised if no punishment at all would give as good or better recidivism rates than the US prison system.

Re:Kind of the point

[Torvac]

you should NEVER lock up people because they have a drug problem.

Re:Kind of the point

[rwise2112]

I mean, sure, I'll probably spend more on my health care "tax" than I'll ever "get out" of it

It's funny but the US already spends more on healthcare at 13.6% of it's GNP than Sweden mentioned above at ~9.5% and Canada also at 9.5% who already have universal healthcare. They need to work on efficiency.

Re:Kind of the point

[coinreturn]

Actually, many, many of us do want it. Just the greedy, self-centered, me-first, Fox news watchers don't.

Re:Kind of the point

[nctritech]

A major part of the problem in the United States is that "once a felon, always a felon." Misdemeanor littering charges will drastically lower your ability to get a job and housing, and a felony conviction practically guarantees never being able to rent a decent apartment or obtain a decent job. The US has little concept of forgiveness, and the predominant attitude towards those who have wronged and wish to start walking the straight and very narrow path of lawful and ethically sound conduct are met with "if you didn't want to be homeless and jobless, you shouldn't have committed a crime. (Implicitly: We don't give a fuck if it was 20 years ago, you're a Bad Person(TM) and we hate you and wish you would die, but you won't so we'll do whatever we can to make you a permanent outcast.)" It is only through a combination of silence, deception, and a few understanding/forgiving people out there that a criminal can climb back up the ladder and live a more normal life.

I wonder how many repeat offenders are that only because they were at the end of their rope and had to steal just to survive, or how many probation violations are minor things like being unable to get a job. It's interesting that probationers are typically required to get and/or maintain employment as part of their probation even though a criminal conviction butchers their ability to do so. It's a pretty messed up system all around, but the largest fault falls on the shoulders of people who refuse to understand other people before passing rapid, harsh judgment upon them. Paranoid helicopter moms with rapist-scanning eyes set at ISO 6400 calling the cops on lone males minding their own business in a city park come to mind as one example. The threshold for "creepy" has lowered so far that if you simply exist with a penis attached in a public place, it's assumed you're going to go Candlejack on all the kids in short order. Throw in the people who can't grasp the concept that not everything they read online or see in a 24-hour news report is truthful and you've got a huge vocal chunk of the population that assume everyone is out to stab them and their families to death for the $2.47 and a paper clip in their pocket if they walk past the wrong bush.

Where are the societies in this world that consist of mostly trustworthy and friendly people? What happened in America that wrecked our compassion and desire to help people? When did that get replaced with token gestures and false fronts?

Re:Kind of the point

[nctritech]

What's better: people who are normally breaching boundaries becoming productive and stable due to taking drugs, or locking them in a metal box and letting them go over and over as the problem gets worse?

Re:Kind of the point

[operagost]

That's not what we did, though. Instead, the government is ordering us to buy something from some of the most corrupt businesses known to man: insurance companies.

Single-payer would have been better. And that means a lot coming from a libertarian.

Re:Kind of the point

[CauseBy]

You guys are reading it wrong because you're only hearing the words in the news reports. You hear "Tea Party conservatives are opposed to universal health care" and you probably think that Tea Party conservatives are opposed to universal health care. You can be forgiven for responding to the information you hear but what you need to understand is that the news reports don't detail how the Tea Party conservatives are simpleton racists. It is just not possible to convince a simpleton racist to accept their own policy (the new law was a conservative suggestion in the recent past) from a black President. There is literally, not figuratively, nothing whatsoever that Obama could do to get any support from the simpleton racists in the Tea Party.

Re:Kind of the point

[CauseBy]

Agreed, and we should start by charging you the same rates -- no, even higher rates -- for American medicines, devices and procedures than we charge ourselves. If countries like Canada and Sweden would stop freeloading off of us, it would be a little bit easier to fix our problems with the medical system. Suddenly your number would be 11.5% and ours would be 12% and you wouldn't have as much of a talking point.

Re:Kind of the point

[CauseBy]

Nah, man, those guys want it to; they're just rhetorical hypocrites.

Re:Kind of the point

[operagost]

It's funny but Canada and Sweden spend more on their education. They need to work on efficiency.

Re:Kind of the point

[CauseBy]

"How many crimes are committed by someone trying to callously shortcut the rules of society vs. someone down on their luck or just trying to survive?"

Good question, here's the answer:

* someone trying to callously shortcut the rules of society: 100%
* someone down on their luck or just trying to survive: 0%

We don't live in the world of "Les Miserables", okay? In America we feed 100% of people. Nobody has starved to death in America for a century (a laudable social achievement) so there is no excuse for stealing bread in order to live.

Re:Kind of the point

[operagost]

Umm... all of those except pensions are mandatory in the USA.

Re:Kind of the point

[operagost]

How many $500K+ cars do you see in your neighborhood? That's an exclusive club: Porsche 918, McLaren, Hennesey, Lamborghini, Maybach, Ferrari, Pagani, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, Bugatti. That's about it.

Re:Kind of the point

[Firethorn]

I beg to disagree. There's a huge laundry list that allows employers to get out of having to provide healthcare, for example - too small, part time, not been there long enough, etc...

On the other hand I don't think employers should be expected to provide healthcare in the first place. The most they should be expected to do is split payments into a healthcare account that the employee can use to buy healthcare using pre-tax dollars. Perhaps bump the minimum wage by ~$1/hour, mandatory into the account if the business doesn't provide a qualifying plan otherwise.

Re:Kind of the point

[Firethorn]

In America we feed 100% of people. Nobody has starved to death in America for a century (a laudable social achievement) so there is no excuse for stealing bread in order to live.

Just to be nitpicky, I read an incident of this happening just a few days ago. Trick is that the parents are up on a raft of charges ranging from neglect all the way up to murder. Investigations into the social services units involved are also ongoing.

Re:Kind of the point

[thoromyr]

anecdotal, but my experience is that many ADHD diagnosis are a result of "I have a lot of money, but no time to spend with my family which has resulted in acting out". Its a diagnosis given by a doctor for another doctor's kids. Except for when its a lawyer's kid.

And my view is skewed based on how I've encountered most ADHD diagnosed kids (a camp for them, which charged those "I have money but no time" parents a good sum of money to get the kids out of the house over the summer. Yeah, there are other cases, but by far the majority of ADHD diagnoses I've encountered would not hold up to a rigorous examination. Its an easy diagnosis that is all pluses for the doctors and pharmaceutical companies. At least it is in the US.

Re:Kind of the point

[Xyrus]

The cake is a lie.

Re:Kind of the point

[micahraleigh]

"grander and greater human concepts"

This is like passing out cookbooks to starving people, to paraphrase something Kierkegaard said.

Professorial verbophilia is not going to sovle anyone's woes.

Re:Kind of the point

[photo pilot]

Well I have never been robbed by a crackhead in the USA or anywhere else so far so this is all just theory, but the % of Swedish-Americans in jail is likely very low. I have also noticed that the rates of most crimes OTHER than murder are lower, sometimes a LOT lower, in the USA vs. other 1st world countries. Also as much as I would be sad if crackheads DID start breaking into my house, they will only do it once.

Re:Kind of the point

[mrchaotica]

Health/accident/pension/unemployment insurance

Umm... all of those except pensions are mandatory in the USA.

Health? Barely, and only recently.

Accident? Nope. Maybe on an employer level -- assuming your employer isn't shady.

Pension? Nope (which you agreed -- otherwise I'd argue that Social Security sort of counts).

Unemployment? Not if you're an "independent contractor," because employers in your industry refuse to hire W-2s (but treat you as if you were one, minus all the benefits and protections)...

Re:Kind of the point

[alexo]

When you're rich, there are way to structure your wealth generation so that your nominal "income" is, or close to, zero.

Re:Kind of the point

[mrchaotica]

We don't charge higher rates because the medicine is expensive, we charge higher rates because of all the GODDAMNED USELESS INSURANCE MIDDLEMEN that countries with universal healthcare DON'T HAVE!

Re:Kind of the point

[Kernel Kurtz]

Yes. The difference between the USA and pretty much every other civilized country is that in America sick people are first and foremost considered an opportunity to make huge profits. Nothing comes before capitalism. Helping people is kind of an unfortunate but necessary afterthought.

Those middlemen suck a huge amount of money out of the system (I've seen numbers like 1/3) while not providing anything actually healthcare related. It's just about shareholders getting as much as they can off that gravy train of illness.

I'm constantly thankful I don't live there.

Re:Kind of the point

[wumbler]

That! Some countries in Europe have been doing that for traffic violations for many years already. The "daily rate" or "day set" to determine fines seems to be fair and gets the point across, even to those who earn a lot.

Only issue: It can be tough to get the estimate right.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

Don't worry. If the state thinks you're trying to BS, they'll just guess. It's not the tax. There are no rules. You're busted, buster, be glad we don't hang you at your ankles and shake you 'til enough money fell out of your pockets that we're satisfied.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

As stated above, the state is pretty good at guessing what you do "sensibly" earn. They know your standard of living, at least if you're halfway well off (if you're not, there ain't any money to squeeze from you anyway). If you try to bullshit, you're in for a wager. If you try to go too low, they'll simply call you bluff and start guessing. And trust me, you'd rather say what you really earn than have them guess. They'll simply look at what you have, what you do for a living, then ponder what you could possibly, at best, earn in that position.

Then they multiply by 1.5 or 2, depending on how much you pissed them off.

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

Well, the solution here is pretty easy: First of all, try to find a doc to support you in that malpractice suit. I wish you the best of luck to find one before you die. Then you can sue him and eventually, maybe, with a hint of luck you get what you would have gotten anyway: Another operation to fix what was fucked up. The main reason why there are very few malpractice suits in Europe is simply that you can at any time go back and have them fix it for free anyway, so why bother suing first?

And if you come with "mental anguish" or any such bull, prepare to turn that wheelchair around pretty fast, our judges can throw that book mighty well and with quite some force.

There is a slim chance for those few odd cases when doctors really drop the ball, and usually they are settled amiably between hospital and patient. You rarely get to hear about them. Maybe the general sentiment that you don't sue someone who tried to effin help you just to make a buck is the difference here...

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

Judging from the results, I cannot agree. It's money well spent considering the PISA tests...

Re:Kind of the point

[Opportunist]

If a private insurance company mistreats you, you can sue... and pray that you live long enough to see the end of it. That's actually, as macabre as it may sound, a quite popular way to get out of such law suits: Simply drag it out 'til the opponent passes away from the disease the treatment of which we didn't want to pay for.

I can of course not speak about the US. Over here, we do actually have a complete separation of powers. The legislative has no say in the judicial branch (judges are appointed by peers, not politicians). That makes them quite powerful. And quite independent, too, since there is literally nothing anyone could do to oust a judge unless he is felled by his peers (something that has at least to my knowledge never happened). And while scandals with politicians are quite common (you can't go a single year without anyone having to resign because some kind of corruption became public), scandals with judges are rare to nonexistent. Actually, judges quickly shy away from trials with a lot of public interest because anyone with half a background in law will comment on it. Judges here have to explain and partly defend their verdict, and in such trials, that "reasons" part of the complete case record can make up a sizable portion of the file.

So while my faith in executive and legislative are gone, I still hold our judges in pretty high esteem. I do trust them (and considering the more recent verdicts on some "politically motivated" cases, with good reason) to come up with fair, balanced and legally sound verdicts. Yes, even against the government. Actually, considering that lingering animosities between legislative and the courts, your chances to win against the government is quite high.

Re:Kind of the point

[Stuarticus]

Gorilla reference in your not subtly racist comment, how very clever.

Re:Kind of the point

[operagost]

But answer to every question about US education is, "we need more money." It really is. That's why we have a problem with property taxes everywhere. Of course, then the other "answer" becomes, "let's fully federalize education," which isn't any more logical than, "let's fully de-federalize education" because it seems that the state and local-run systems worked fine until the feds told everyone how they had to be run but they still had to rely on property owners to pay for everything.

Re:Kind of the point

[Ogive17]

I actually had no intent.. the phrase was in my head as I had just read it in my business ethics book.

Substitute pink elephant if that offends you less.

Re:Kind of the point

[ausekilis]

Despite it being a couple days later, I just thought I'd point this out to you. Romney isn't as deathly opposed to Obamacare as you make it out to be. He signed a state-level healthcare bill into law during his term as Governor of Mass. that is really a lot like Obamacare. His primary disagreement is he thinks it should be state-level.

You and I are in agreement with regard to who ends up in the Great White Daycare on capital hill, it is no longer by the people for the people, Senators no longer have to go home to tend to crops and see how the general populous lives. They no longer represent the community interest. That's exactly why I made the crayon picture to put on the fridge analogy.

Re:Kind of the point

[Bert64]

Like this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066828/Bugatti-Veyron-owner-gets-ticket-parking-disabled-space-Essex.html

since when do humans need govt to be evil?

[globaljustin]

n/t

Re:since when do humans need govt to be evil?

[crutchy]

humans don't need government to be evil, but government allows for tremendous increase in efficiency of evil

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[crutchy]

yeah cos everyone knows CNN is waaaaaaaay more credible :-)

government = BAD?

[DavidMZ]

It seems that there is an involuntary irony in Laxori666's post and his criticism of government action, considering that Sweden has one of the most interventionist government, as illustrated by the level of welfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_Sweden). I guess that you have the government that you deserve...

Argument against prohibition still makes sense

[Firethorn]

But the one drug that is no longer prohibited is now the worst offender of all? Me thinks you need to rethink that argument.

It still makes sense if you look at it in the context of that as bad as alcohol is now, as bad as it was before prohibition, the net effects of it's prohibition on society was worse. Alcohol poisonings went up. Hell, our own government caused a number of deaths by deliberately poisoning alcohol in a weird "Drinking is bad! Let's make it worse! by deliberately poisoning it and maybe people will stop!" line of thinking. You vastly empowered organized crime(the 'mobs' of the day, 'gangs' today), got violence on the street, incredible incentives for police to become corrupt, the shift from 'officer of the peace' to 'law enforcement', etc...

My support for legalizing drugs is pure harm mitigation, not harm prevention. Because prevention isn't working even at huge expense.

Yellow press

[DavidMZ]

I am not sure you know what it means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

well let's find out

[globaljustin]

That's how we work, it would just move from basic survival stuff to luxury goods. And that would be good.

you seem to subscribe to an adapted version of the 'Brave New World' idea of how the future might look...

i like that idea...i really think we could move to where our tech advancements have rightfully placed us without harming anyone & minimally offending people

I agree that "that's how we work" but just b/c that's true doesn't mean we'd "move from basic survival stuff to luxury goods"...

I mean, I think your right on that point, but in my mind if scarcity became balanced out we could progress to **new problems** and **new challenges** that we don't even see completely yet

What i'm saying is, Jules Vern could probably imagine humans sending an automaton to other worlds to explore...however, could Homer imagine the same?

Homer had no concept of other planets in the solar system...nor did they ancient mythmakers know anything about the internet...

Yet their works are equally valid and inspiring to certain people just as Jules Vern was for me...

The point is, the fun part is all about what we don't know...we should always be pushing to the edge of our capabilities b/c IMHO its the only way we'll keep from killing each other haha!

.... jailing a MS patients -true role of FDA &

[harvey the nerd]

The FDA and DEA are tools to keep drugs controlled with prices high. Otherwise, people would pay perhaps $200-$300 per month for advanced cancer treatments off patent, sourced globally, instead of $40,000-$50,000 snake venom and oil. I have personal experience - turned down the $40,000+ per month offer - too little benefit, too short a result, and too painful. Fortunately I have some science and resource advantages over the normal MDs. Although I know I still pay too much, it is still only about $500-600 per month. I called the FDA about doing it in the US (35 yr old drugs overseas) and they chewed on me, but then I explained we were doing it all outside the US, corrupt fuckwits.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[whistlingtony]

CNN? More credible than Newsmax? Uhm. Yes. And that says a lot about Newsmax.

Also, Crutchy? I looked at your comments. You're a racist, and a genderist. In the last week you spouted the "women are asking for it with those clothes" line, and in THIS discussion, you felt it necessary to bust out the N word.

Perhaps you should think about your attitudes and your life.

See how bad it can turn out

[krigat]

See where massive health care, strict gun laws, strong labor rights etc. lead you to... now Sweden pays the bill - they have not enough crime and prisoners.

Good that the US does not follow that way - we dont' want to lose our world leading role in imprisonment!

Re:See how bad it can turn out

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong.

Violent crime is at an all time high, because the supreme court has lowered the punishment rates letting the criminals out much faster.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Joce640k]

as somebody who has spent more than a year in prison cumulatively, let me assure you that I am motivated never to return!

Your use of the word "cumulatively" suggests that you already did return...once wasn't enough.

Swedish supreme court lowered punishment for crime

[Anonymous Coward]

When the current goverment gained power they did it on among other things a law and order platform. Increasing police budget and promising harsher punishment.

What the swedish supreme court has done on the other hand is lower the punishments for most crimes. Leading to empty prisons.

The direct result is an all time high in violent crime and cases such as these:
6 youth beat an old man unconsious and to an inch of is life for telling them not to kick a dog. Their punishment? 2 weeks community service.
6 youth locked a girl in a room and gangraped her, the court believed her but did not think she was in a helpless position. Their punishment? None, not even an appeal.

Welcome to Fubaristan.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[isorox]

85% of reported rapes in Sweden are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants.

http://www.newsmax.com/jameswalsh/europe-immigration-muslim-obama/2013/05/29/id/506837

But slashdot has already told me that any sexual action is "rape" -- look at Asange.

What are they doing with rapists?

[Lucky_Pierre]

Letting them walk?

From Wikipedia:
"Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world. According to a 2009 study, there were 46 incidents of rape per 100,000 residents. This figure is twice that of the UK which reports 23 cases, and four times that of the other Nordic countries, Germany and France. The figure is up to 20 times the figure for certain countries in southern and eastern Europe."

Re:What are they doing with rapists?

[u38cg]

Yeah, that might just have something to do with the far better treatment of rape victims in Sweden. In the UK, for example, around one in ten rapes is actually reported.

Re:What are they doing with rapists?

[Spad]

Read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372 - the figures you're quoting are pretty misleading.

It's mostly due to differences in how reported rapes are recorded and a system that encourages rape victims to go to the police.

Highest suicide rates?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Sweden is 44:th on the list and as such probably isn't eligible for the "highest suicide rates"-prize this year...

Not true

[madak3]

In Sweden many criminals get sentenced to mental treatment instead of prision. One year of two of insutution with strong drugs after crimes like rape, murder, vilolence, pedophilia etc. then your out again.

California's Prison Guard Union Would Object

[Anonymous Coward]

The primary reason CA has overcrowded prisons is because the extremely powerful guards union not only makes each prison prohibitively expensive to run, but the union opposes alternative options to incarceration.

Re:How?

[dave420]

Sweden != Switzerland. And Switzerland is having a problem with gun crime. So you're about as wrong as you can be, which is not surprising for a gun nut.

Yeah right... did everybody forget about sweden?

[SmallFurryCreature]

This is the country that locks up file sharers. This is the country that is the toadie of the US where Assange is wanted on a bogus "rape" charge that wouldn't be a charge in any other civilized country.

There isn't a lack of criminals. The Dutch government is doing the same thing, closing jails. It is however NOT because crime has dropped, just that fewer and fewer jail sentences are given for even serious crime. It is easy to decrease the prison population, just abolish jail sentences.

Does that make for a better society? Ask this when you are violated and the criminal gets a slap on the wrist.

This has nothing to do with Sweden having found the answer to the problems of crimes and is just a cost cutting measure. Crime in Sweden has NOT gone down.

What the?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Do you actually ever read the books you chew on?

Communist parties existed in Europe well into the 80's and in for instance France they still play a major role.

Although I suppose technically 2013 is after WW2.

Re:What the?

[sumdumass]

The existance of the comunist party or variations does not detract from from what was said, openly and known comunist switched to socialism in order to avoid the stigma of comunism.

I'm not sure why you think they all stayed with the communist parties.

Re:What the?

[ultranova]

The existance of the comunist party or variations does not detract from from what was said, openly and known comunist switched to socialism in order to avoid the stigma of comunism.

If openly communistic people switched to socialism, then who are the members of the current communist parties? Hipster bankers?

Re:What the?

[sumdumass]

They would be current members of course. Do you think the end of WWII was yesterday or something? Do you think communism still has a global stigma? Do you think you could think a little about it?

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[biodata]

You may be wrong, it may be the case that incarceration increases the likelihood of reoffending.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Anonymous Coward]

Two logical fallacies in a single line of text, and you are 5 Insightful?

The Strawman and the Genetic fallacy - well played.

Does not add up

[chrismcb]

FTS:

the crime rate in Sweden has increased slightly. It seems they are planning to take steps for preventing crime

Crime rate has increased, but they are PLANNING on taking steps to prevent crime? Well apparently they are only planning, because if they started, their prevention hasn't worked.
I'm not sure what this mention of "planning to prevent crimes" has to do with the actual situation, which is the courts are being more lenient on drug crimes.

It will work

[Chrisq]

As long as the muslim population remains low:

• http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/
• http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/swedish-city-overrun-by-muslim-crime-turns-to-superhero/
• http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/muslims-burn-down-church-in-storholmsjo-in-karlskrona-sweden
• http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/sweden-muslims-admit-deliberate-hate-crimes-against-swedes-government-is-proposed-to-reward-them-with-jobs/
• http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/09/08/open-letter-from-a-swedish-woman-about-the-scourge-of-muslim-immigration-and-multiculturalism/
• http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/hate-crimes-against-jews-in-muslim.html

Re:It will work

[maxwell demon]

Looking at the URLs, I strongly doubt that most of those are unbiased sources.

Re:It will work

[erroneus]

Yes, because when a few report on something while the rest actively ignore it means there is bias. You should wake up a bit. You understand, for example, in the US, they censor the race of criminals when they are black as a matter of policy and it has been admitted by the "unbiased press." The reasons for doing so it simply trying to not make things even worse.

I, like so many tech-people here, see things in a more simple way. First you must acknowledge and identifiy a problem. Then you can act to resolve or manage it. The rest of humanity seems to believe the head-in-sand approach is far better.

Re:fixed that for you...

[iserlohn]

capitalism is extremely efficient at profiting from human misery

humans are extremely efficient at creating human misery

/FIFY

Sweden prisons

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a Police that somehow manage to not solve crimes...
And now the prison population is going down...

Sounds like those 2 things is not related? ;-)

Socialism myth

[denoir]

I'm not sure why there is this weird myth in the US about Sweden being "socialist". We've had a right wing government for the past 8 years. There has also been in the past two decades a sharp turn towards libertarian ideology in Sweden (our right is not socially conservative) and this is also true for the social democrats who have very little of socialism left in them.

Health care isn't free, nor are child care and social services. They are in some cases heavily subsidized, but definitely not free. It is accessible to everyone and it works very well for most people and their needs. It sort of sucks for more advanced medicine: If you are going to have a child for instance, it's superb while if you have say lung cancer, your chances are much better if you have the operation in the US.

The rather dysfunctional medical care system in the US is not a socialist/capitalist thing - it's just a system that doesn't work very well for a lot of people. The insurance model of financing healthcare is for instance very questionable etc.

As for other stuff such as taxes, I could mention stuff like that Sweden has no inheritance taxes, no real estate taxes or that the financial system is orders of magnitude less regulated than the US one etc Sweden is also somewhat of a corporate tax haven - with the right corporate structure you can get away with paying very little taxes. The bottom line is that from a Swedish perspective at least in in some respects the US is far more socialist than Sweden.

Ideologically you could say that the typical Swede is a pragmatic individualist who thinks that the role of the state is to protect, liberate and enable the individual. Unlike a 'pure' socialist system the role of the state is limited to problems it actually can solve. Unlike a 'pure' capitalist system the state has an enabling role as well (positive freedoms) rather than just a protective role (negative freedoms). If you things those concepts are muddled, you are quite right. Hence the pragmatism. And it sort of works. It's far from perfect. It's very disappointing to those that wish to classify it ideologically. There are many small issues and some huge ones (integration into society of immigrants is one example) but on the whole it is a decent society - and much better off than 30 years ago when it was much easier to classify ideologically.

Re:Socialism myth

[AmiMoJo]

I'm not sure why there is this weird myth in the US about Sweden being "socialist".

All of Europe is socialist compared to the US.

Health care isn't free, nor are child care and social services. They are in some cases heavily subsidized, but definitely not free. It is accessible to everyone

That's what counts - everyone can get high quality child care, even if they have 0 SEK in the bank and need to work full time to pay the rent. If they get ill they get treatment and don't go bankrupt.

if you have say lung cancer, your chances are much better if you have the operation in the US.

Only if you can afford it in the US. If your health insurance won't pay or you don't have insurance the Swedish system is far better than nothing.

Ideologically you could say that the typical Swede is a pragmatic individualist who thinks that the role of the state is to protect, liberate and enable the individual.

That is extreme socialism in the US. Over there the idea that the government should involve itself in a person's life is abhorrent. The state never "enables" anyone in an American's eyes, it just takes money out of their pocket and gives it to someone else as an entitlement.

I don't think libertarianism means what you think it means.

Re:Socialism myth

[luisdom]

"your chances are much better if you have the operation in the US"
As in 20 per 100K death rate in in Sweden, 35 in US? I know that's not what you were referring to, but it's the result that counts...

The truth is pposite of pro-coloureds propaganda!

[Anonymous Coward]

The reality is that Sweden has a significant crime rate, but the authorities are refusing to investigate most of those cases, where the perpetrators are obviously coloureds (mostly black africans and north african muslims and former yugoslav balkanic people) . It seems strange to have many african people in the northernmost part of Europe, but Sweden has over 10% of coloured population, due to 5 decades of extremely lenient left-wing immigration policies. The swedish politics and press is entirly saturated with political left leaning people, whose views are part libertine and part reform-communist (of the 1968 Paris agenda). For those elite, investigating any crime, where eye witnesses or evidence describes the perp as a coloured, is equal to starting the Holocaust again.

In contrast, the swedish population suffers a lot from un-persecuted coloured crime, muslim sharia movements and coloured ghettoization - intimidation, as well as the total wall of silence surrounding these phenomenon. This early autumn, a hungarian TV documentary crew went to Sweden to investigate the backyard of that "multi-kulti kabuki theathre". They were harassed everywhere by car hire companies, hotels, all trying to cancel their valid reservations on-site, unwarranted police stops, etc. Meanwhile, the swedish TV news aired many reports, describing Hungary as a neo-nazi governed country, that is actively exterminating the gipsy (a.k.a roma or tzigane, an extremely primitive coloured ethnic minority, originating and expelled from northern India in the 9th century AD, who combine the extremely violent and nature of negroids with the laziness and thievousness of hispanics).

In response, a swedish citizen's grassroots movement sprung up, with thousands of ordinary swedish citizens posting in web forums about their coloured crime grievances, of uni-directional pro-coloured tolerance and supporting the hungarian TV crew in uncovering the swedish coloured crime shielding conspiracy. A few dozen people even went to the hungarian embassy building with slogan banners to express their solidarity! Swedish middle class people, the great majority of their egalitarian society, are afraid to lose their jobs if they speak up, but in private most admit that 90% of coloureds within the territory of Sweden would be in jail, if only crimes were investigated and persecuted without regards to the official anti-white agenda. Indeed, there would be little to no crime in a purely blonde and palefaced Sweden, but today's Sweden has over a million coloureds and most of them are up for no good.

BTW, neighbouring Finland has the same problem, mostly with their gipsy minority, who have a penchant for shoplift, theft and blood revenge (no kidding). At least Finland places deliquent gipsy youth into reform camps located above the Artic Circle, where the EU-banned fences and locked doors are not needed, since bears roam the wild freely, preventing escape... In fact the rapid closing of economic and GDP gap that took place since 1990 between the traditionally rich Sweden and the historically poor Finland is due to less crime-tolerant finnish policies and less coloured immigration to Finland. Finnish people, being of ugric origin, are not genetically nordic, but they are civilized and diligent and resourceful. They love their country and won't le it be ruined by the judeo-anarcho-communism cabal that has brainwashed Sweden since WW2.

Re:low crime - think again

[u38cg]

[citation needed] on several levels.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

My view

[xenobyte]

If I were to construct the policy of a country, I'd go for unlocked doors and very strict punishments for those 'breaking in' and stealing, i.e. an open society with harsh punishments for those breaking the rules.

Punishments should be 4-5 years minimum and double each time when re-offending. Prison time should be hard labor and not a paid vacation. Resocializing should only happen the first time. Re-offenders are just kept away from society so they can do no harm while they're locked up. No parole system for reoffenders either.

Re:My view

[SuricouRaven]

The problem there is that a lot of the people who end up in your prisons would actually not be serious offenders, but rather rebellious teenagers doing a little petty shoplifting or smoking pot. Crimes they would cease if just given a slap on the wrist, or just outgrow. Instead your approach throws them in jail to disrupt their education, ruin them socially, give them plenty of new criminal contacts and exposure to a criminal culture that encourages crime, and render them effectively unemployable upon release so their only possible income is harder crime.

You've just invented a way to turn annoying teenagers into home invaders, drug dealers and murderers. Nice plan.

Re:My view

[squizzar]

The conflict between your comment and your signature is making my brain hurt... is it intentional?

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Bert64]

Prison starts a slippery slope..
Once you've been there, you are forever branded a criminal and it becomes far more difficult to find a job. You also meet lots of new criminal contacts in prison.

So ask yourself, once you're released you can't get a decent job anywhere and you know lots of criminals... What's the obvious course of action in order to make money?

Compare incarceration rateo to crime rates:

[Press2ToContinue]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
How's that prison-as-a-deterrent thing working out for you, America? Not so much, huh,

Re:European filth

[Joce640k]

The real problem with America is that everybody thinks they're entitled to their opinion even when there's hard facts to the contrary.

2 + 2 = 4? Go online and let us know what you think...

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[fey000]

85% of reported rapes in Sweden are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants.

Except those committed by Australians.

When it comes to that: note that's actually a single Australian to allegedly commit the rest of 15%.

(large grin)

The remaining 85% would then be 5 and 2/3. Is the last guy a midget?

Exclusion zones

[erroneus]

It's hard to put people into prisons when they live in "exclusion zones" where police and fire people are actively prevented from entering. If you think there isn't a crime problem in Sweden, you would be quite mistaken.

Re:European filth

[Opportunist]

Yeah, they're shutting down prisons based on doctored statistics...

I've been to Stockholm, I've been to New York. There are few parts of Stockholm I wouldn't go at night. There are also few parts in New York that I would.

Lead

[flyingfsck]

One reason for the almost world-wide reduction in crime is the reduction of lead in the environment, thanks to unleaded fuel.

Re:Lead

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosh, you're so clever. Please, post more words of wisdom lest we be able to learn!

Re:Lead

[umafuckit]

One reason for the almost world-wide reduction in crime is the reduction of lead in the environment, thanks to unleaded fuel.

http://www.venganza.org/images/PiratesVsTemp.png

Re:Lead

[madro]

For more details on this, I recommend Kevin Drum's article, which summarizes the research well. (Not just a spurious correlation, although it's good to be skeptical.)

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

Re:Lead

[geekoid]

Another being the availability of 24/7 TV with a lots of options and computers.
People have things to do in the home instead of of being bored and roaming the streets.

Re:Lead

[geekoid]

You must be a genius. just rattling off that without reading any studies or understanding the affects of lead on the brain.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=study+lead+crime&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=L12CUtzwHceRiALr0oGQAw&ved=0CCwQgQMwAA

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nevin_2000_Env_Res_Author_Manuscript.pdf

Re:Lead

[geekoid]

That would only be clever and have a point if you followed it up with something the counters the dozens of studies that link lead to violent crime.

Just post that makes you a tosser.

Start here and maybe you will learn something
http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nevin_2000_Env_Res_Author_Manuscript.pdf

Re:Lead

[umafuckit]

Just post that makes you a tosser.

The graphs in the article you link to are good and I Googled before posting and realised there was something in. It makes sense that lead, a neurotoxin, could be responsible for effects of this sort. It's just that your original post was somewhat sweeping in nature and didn't have a citation so I couldn't resist ribbing you. I should have added a smiley. I'm sorry you appear to have been offended by it, as I've noticed your sig in the past and rather liked it.

Re:Lead

[amiga3D]

Perhaps not always but more often than not it's a good indicator.

Re:Lead

[Diamonddavej]

"A small number of epidemiological studies that have found a dose-response relationship between lead exposure in childhood and self-reported and officially recorded criminal offences in young adulthood; and evidence for the biological plausibility of a causal relationship."

Hall, W., 2013. Did the elimination of lead from petrol reduce crime in the USA in the 1990s? F1000Research 2013, 2:156 (doi: 10.12688/f1000research.2-156.v2)

Re:Lead

[Ginger Unicorn]

Ouch, the hostility. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I have read the studies, and this isn't an open and shut case. Also if you're going to be unnecessarily snarky, it's "effects", not "affects".

Re:Lead

[Ginger Unicorn]

Recognition at last.

Re:Lead

[_BrianMahoney]

I've read that before so I'm not sure why you're getting all the hate with this statement. NASCAR finally dropped TEL in 2008 so there's still some hope for the American South...at least in a few years when they have time to recover. Bubba for Pres!

Re:Lead

[HorseArcher]

That's a reduction in violent crime, but the 'correlation is insufficient to draw any conclusions regarding causality'... http://bit.ly/U4j10P

All these comments

[Provocateur]

and no link to Inga Und Helga: Swedish Chained Heat? Before the locations will be shut down.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Opportunist]

We can find out as soon as they start doing anything to prevent crime. Right now, the policy seems to be to incite people to it.

It pains me to write this but

[ThatsNotPudding]

you can accomplish quite a lot societally if the populace is essentially homogeneous. When you neighbor is on the dole, it's fine if he's from the same 'tribe' as you, but if he 'different', that's when all the lizard brain hatreds come to fore.

Modern Prisons

[nurb432]

At least in the so-called civilized world prisons are far too plush. Often times prison life is better than the outside life of the criminal. And FAR better than most of our military.

Changing this would go a long way to help.

Re:How?

[Anonymous Coward]

The require their citizens to own military style weapons

No, that's not Sweden. That's Switzerland, the country bordering on Austria. You know, with the kangaroos and shit.

Rentseeking

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess -- prison guards are not unionized. End of explanation.

What steps are they taking?

[callmebill]

The article doesn't state what specific steps the country is taking to reduce crime. That would be much more interesting to read. Currently the article isn't much more than a page out of the IKEA catalog.

Now I know why they want Julian Assange...

[deboli]

If you have empty prisons you go to any length to fill them...

Julian Assange

[DarthVain]

So the real reason they were so after Julian Assange wasn't Corporate USA political interference, but rather Sweden simply trying to fill prison beds! It is all so clear now!

Re:How?

[Zalbik]

As a contrast, homicide rates have sky-rocketed in Sweden since the mid '70ies due to an extremely liberal immigration policy introduced back in 1975.

Strange, cause when I look at the firearm-related homicides for the two countries, I see over double the number of homicides per 100,000 people in Switzerland vs. Sweden.

Yes, Sweden has a slightly higher overall homicide rate (1.0 vs. 0.7 per 100,000), but it would be quite the stretch to deduce that this has anything to do with gun control.

We already tried "Hug and Release"

[Beeftopia]

Sweden, on the other hand, focuses on bringing people who have strayed from the path back into society. Their methods work. However, if anyone in the US wants to employ their methods, they are seen as "soft on crime" at worst. At best, they can't get the funding needed to enact meaningful rehabilitation programs. It is far cheaper (in the short term) and easier to put people in cages compared to education and rehabilitation.

We already tried "Hug and Release" back in the 1970s and 80s. Crime rates had been skyrocketing for a long time. Only when the mid 90s hit, and the country returned to retributive punishments with a vengeance did crime rates start falling again.

Citation:
1) http://www.bjs.gov/ucrdata/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm - select "United States-total" from the first list box, "Violent Crime Rates" from the second list box, leave date range from 1960 to 2012, and click the "Get Table" button.

This seems to be a pattern. Prisoners rights advocates hold sway, influence the public to forget the offenders' crimes, just look at how handsome they are, crime starts going up. Innocent people are victimized more and more, then finally, society realizes it must remove criminals from society and aggressively pursue criminals in order to lower crime rates. New York is this issue writ large. Only when it unbelievably elected Giuliani did he institute zero tolerance policies which finally brought the crime rate down. I remember the puzzled social commentators just baffled about how Giuliani's policies could possibly work. Darkly amusing.

Re:We already tried "Hug and Release"

[turing_m]

It is testament to the naivety and stupidity of some people on here that your comment is modded 1 and the one above you is modded +5 insightful, which is wrong for all sorts of reasons, including the one that you state. Most importantly, ethnic/racial background is vastly different between Sweden and the USA, and that is the number one factor in crime rates around the world. Just take a look at a map of homicide rates around the globe. Take a look at rates of homicide within the USA. I guess the crime rate in Detroit is because of the schools or something.

Just repeat after me, "people are fungible", "people are fungible", "people are fungible", and all your dreams will come true. That dumb kid you knew in the first grade - his problem was that the teachers just would never try hard enough. He could have been Don Knuth if only his parents gave him the Tiger Mother treatment. Ted Bundy - with a well enough designed re-education camp ("Murders are bad, mmmmkay?"), would have been a great contributor to society.

Re:We already tried "Hug and Release"

[dbIII]

We already tried "Hug and Release" back in the 1970s and 80s

Nice myth, but reality made your bit in quotes a prison rape joke. Some places have had improvements in prison conditions since then and are still seen as brutal.

It's a cheap political trick to be "tough on crime" and add some arbitrary unusual punishment so something is seen to be done.

to which episodes

[globaljustin]

are you referring?

US Has Solved This Problem

[pubwvj]

In the USA they solved this problem by making more laws that send people to prison. Prisons are BIG BUSINESS with capital letters. They have lobbyists working full time to write laws to create more customers.

Re:false dichotomy in summary

[Mab_Mass]

You may be wrong, it may be the case that incarceration increases the likelihood of reoffending.

The more and more that I've been thinking about it, the more I realize how incarceration is probably one of the best ways to majorly disrupt someone's life and send them down a path where crime is the best option. As a thought experiment, imagine that all of a sudden you weren't able to work for 2 years. By the time you're out, you probably don't have a place to live or a job, and given your criminal record, it is hard to get a job, and given your lack of a job, it is hard to find a place to live.

For the generic person who had bad circumstances and made a few bad choices, this is almost certainly a recipe for continued trouble with the law.

Different Countries, Different Populations

[userw014]

Clearly, Sweden doesn't have the kind of problems that Norway has (see http://www.trollhunterfilm.com/ )

Although I don't imagine that Norway is locking up those miscreants.

Re:Yeah right... did everybody forget about sweden

[ultranova]

Does that make for a better society? Ask this when you are violated and the criminal gets a slap on the wrist.

Nice selection bias you have there. Must be that famous US education system at work again. But the question actually is: which makes a better society, one where you have low chances of being violated but the criminal gets a slap on the wrist, or one where you have high chances of being violated but the culprit is hanged?

In other words, do you care more about your own welfare or that your enemies suffer? Or, even simpler, do you care more about yourself or your enemies?

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[oh2]

Avpixlat is a sewer of anonymous bigotry, lies and propaganda supported by SD, a political party whose prominent members of parliament enjoy taking drunken walks on the streets of Stockholm with iron pipes in case someone wants to mess with them. Fria tider is even worse, its thinly disguised white supremacist bullshit. Yes, we have asshole bigots in Sweden as well.

Re:Start jailing the rapists

[Microlith]

Thankfully I never made that claim. The AC below would do well to observe your straw man so he can recognize one in the future.

Looks like a comfortable, cheap apartment to me.

[Dekker3D]

From a quick glance at the text and photos, I'd say this looks about as comfortable as my current life... and the surveillance there is only marginally worse than it is atm, thanks to the NSA :P

Cultural and demographic differences...

[couchslug]

... are worth mentioning.
The US isn't Sweden, and many of its subgroups never had and never will have (because it's resented) the future-oriented culture which most facilitates advancing civilization.

Not a racial thing so don't even go there. The most cherished myth of White (and other) racists is that they are functionally different from the (other) lower class zeros they hate. That "narcissism of small differences" is toxic.

Closing Prisons?

[IndieVoter]

Never happen in California. The Prison Guard Unions bought the Democratic Party and installed Gov. Davis. They are now amoung the highest paid law enforcement officers in the US. Oh, and lots of prisoners for minor drug offenses. Didn't help Davis, as he was thrown out, but DID help the Union. Demos for sale, just not cheap.

Flexicurity FTW

[NewYork]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity

not 'gov't' its **all systems**

[globaljustin]

but government allows for tremendous increase in efficiency of evil

wrong

'government' is humans organizing for economic advantage

****any system**** can be abused....

government, corporation, family, USMC platoon, classroom...they are all human systems

what makes one system better than the other is having better feedback channels...aka ****accountability****

Immigrants

[whistlingtony]

I hear a lot of this same nonsense here in the USA. Immigrants coming in and ruining everything, they're on Welfare, They take all the jobs, they're culturally backwater, they're going to bankrupt the country, etc etc etc.

Meanwhile my nearest two neighbors are immigrants. They're nice people, hardworking. Their lawn is beautiful and I'm sure they shake their heads at the gringo next door. They're poor, sure, but that's not a crime(yet). They're nice people. I eat dinner with them sometimes. I help their kids with homework. I practice my spanish because it's interesting and polite, instead of ranting about how they need to learn english.

And you know what? They have some funny ideas. Some funny beliefs. They're very "old world" with their attitudes to a woman's place in the home. Eh. I know that'll get worked out with their kids. I try to get their daughters hooked on power tools as much as I can. You know how I know that? My dad was an immigrant. Swiss. And everything turned out fine.

People are people the world over. Most of them just want to be left alone, to do some meaningful work, to enjoy their family and their life, to raise children who do better than they did.

If immigrants to Sweden are having a hard time adjusting, perhaps it's because of shit attitudes on YOUR part. Perhaps you should take some time to show them what it means to be Swedish. Perhaps you should get to know them before throwing your racist rants all over the place.