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Lawsuit: Oracle Called $50K 'Good Money For an Indian'
jfruh writes "A former Oracle sales manager is suing the database company for what he called racially discriminatory salary-setting practices. Ian Spandow wanted to transfer a high-performing salesman from Oracle's India office to California. When he requested a salary of $60,000 a year or more for the employee, equivalent to what his white American counterparts received, he was told instead to offer $50,000, which was 'good money for an Indian.' When Spandow protested, he was himself summarily fired."
I'm shocked. Oracle has always seemed like one the more reputable companies, willing to compete fairly, not obsessed with gouging its customers, and nary an evil bone in their corporate body. I can't imagine them hiring or promoting people that would act like this.
There is an Oracle office in India for a reason. They're cheap. Defeats the purpose if you bring them all over here on US wages, wouldn't it? Might as well hire Americans, god forbid!
I like the German law regarding hiring immigrants, and that is, they have to be paid the same as your other workers.
But we need that talent from overseas because Americans don't have the skills do those jobs -- ask Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerburg! This is why America needs amnesty and more immigration!
-- Ethanol-fueled
Because that is good money for an indian. Getting off the reservation and its rampant fire water problem is a plus.
Oracle didn't say anything. Some dude that works there said it. The company should be charged for any discrimination their employees say, but don't make it like it was a statement from their PR or anything like it. There are people that saying stupid things like that anywhere, at any given time.
C'mon, get your Indians right, mate!
(yeah, we're all going to burn in hell for these comments)
They should be earning the same as all the Americans because they are also Americans. I mean, the Cherokees, the Apaches and all the other tribes were in America before the Europeans, right?
An Oracle executive, sales manager and human resources manager walk into a court room...
According to my employer, workers from overseas that are in the US and want to become citizens require lawyer time which isn't cheap. The article didn't mention whether the person from India was coming permanently or if the position was temporary. If it wasn't an H-1B (temporary) position then the lower wage might have been justified based on the cost of bringing the person over and the subsequent costs associated with sponsorship.
That would mean law is enforced, and that is commie red soshalsism, friend.
If the Indian's didn't work for less, would it disincentivize their hiring?
Or is there also an expectation they will tolerate longer hours in a less hospitable work environment?
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
As far as I am aware you are allowed to offer people whatever salary you choose.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
...or anyone else for that matter. I'd kill for that kind of salary and I'm Dutch.
It certainly is good money for someone — whatever their race — from India, where that same person was earning much less...
Unless Mr. Spandow's own dismissal was due to racism or some other illegal discrimination against him, I doubt, the suit will be found to have much merit. Bad publicity for Oracle — maybe. But nothing worse. Oh, and a much of folks in India thinking, that he is a spoiled idiot...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Was that they were only willing to offer him $50,000, not even $60,000 in CALIFORNIA. Isn't $60,000 a year under the poverty line there?
I don't understand what the problem is here. During salary negotiations, one usually makes an initial salary offer that's at the low end of what you think the candidate will be willing to accept. I thought it's fair game to bring all relevant information to bear when deciding what to make for an opening offer: how desperate the person is for a job, what his current salary is, etc.
The story would be different if Oracle said "Our salary ceiling for Indians is $X, and for Americans it's $Y." But we're just talking about the opening offer, aren't we?
$500k is more like it.
Can you even afford an apartment where you don't get shot at on a daily basis for 60K in California, let alone 50K ? Not to mention a salesperson will need decent clothes and a nice enough car which aren't cheap. I suppose they'd also like to eat.
I will be boycotting anything and everything Oracle makes from any development I do from now on. Shouldn't be too hard as so much of what they offer is pure crap now anyhow this just seals the deal.
This was a person who was already working within Oracle... this was not a new hire. I'd dare say that most people in America who already work for Oracle make more than $50k.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
That guy and the Indian couldn't have hoped for a better response.
1) they get to escape oracle
2) oracle will have to buy them off
Must have been the greatest day of their lives.
short version is it's a snake pit but you can make some serious $ if you can survive in it & produce!
And Mr. Spandow will find that his employment options after this lawsuit highly curtailed.
According to http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-nator.cfm it seems like prohibition from workplace discrimination based on national origin extends to hiring. Unfortunately, the most likely outcome of a lawsuit like this one would be a fat settlement for this indivisual, after which, it will be business as usual at Oracle and at other companies with similar hiring practices.
In this particular case, he was after transferring an employee of Oracle India who already had worked with the team (albeit remotely) and knew the systems involved, so arguably the pool of equally qualified Americans who weren't already employed by Oracle was probably pretty small.
"Success is based on knowing how far to go in going too far"
i bet Larry has one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Rolex-Yacht-Master-Mens-Watch-116689/dp/B003KV0QSW/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1389710422&sr=8-9&keywords=yatchmaster+2+rolex
I used to work for Dell. There was a developer from India on an L-2 visa with 5 years experience and working out of Northern Virginia. They paid him so little he could not afford a car. He had to walk to work. When it was really hot, he had to go into the bathroom and wash the sweat off when he got here. In this location a developer with 5 years experience typically makes about $80-90k. Plus if he is coming from India that is supposed to me he is top notch and you cannot find someone of his skills in the US. He was actually pretty good. They were totally ripping him off.
I think people brought over to take tech jobs should be paid in the top 1% of tech salaries because they are supposed to be the best of the best. If they are the best, they should be paid like it. When they can be low balled, it makes it impossible to compete with those wages.
Maybe since it is a sales position, there is a bonus structure of some kind.
If we're talking Indian, do we mean dot-com or feather-com?
Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.
And people in Oregon wonder why their Oracle-designed Obamacare exchange site failed.
A contracting company recently slipped and sent me the going "non-green card" rate for Microsoft in Seattle. $38k/year plus $27k/year per diem puts them at $65k/year, fairly low for Puget Sound living expenses.. If you're unemployed in the Pacific Northwest, now you know what you're up against.
That guy from India presumably needed a visa, such as an H1B. In order to get this, a company needs to demonstrate to the Dept of Labor that the person in question can command an above-average salary. How do they do this if they undercut people in comparable jobs?
Is this what corporate America is, these days? Someone disagrees in an e-mail with the head office and gets dismissed for that? Oracle would be unethical, but also downright stupid if they fired everyone who didn't share the views of their superiors. I can't believe that...
The guy now works at Mongo DB
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-spandow/1/739/557
As a tech who is unemployed, I will work for that kind of money today!!!
Well, if Oracle or Microsoft or any company wants to find good talent at cheaper rates anywhere in the world, it's fine. However what is not fine is bringing them at cheaper than local rates to another locality/country. As one of the poster already mentioned "Its the Law". That is because it brings the cost of labor down in that locality and everyone in that industry gets hurt. In the long run, even the company who hired the person at lower price since the consumer is not stupid. In some time they will learn to negotiate the product at the lower price.
You forget that Oracle ensures that by locating most all of its educational facilities ... abroad.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So 50K is good money for an Indian. Indian maid that is!
Turns out Government of India pays the diplomats at that level about 4500$ a month. The maid misunderstood the line in the visa application where the employer is saying, "my salary is 4500$ a month" to prove her ability to pay the contracted wage to be the wage the maid is going to be paid. She complained she was getting only 1/3 of that money. But 1500$ a month was the contracted wage. Surprised that US Attorney who had successfully prosecuted billionaire hedge fund managers tripped up on that. 54K salary for a maid? Should have rung alarm bells.
Well, she has been allowed to go home. India sent another diplomat back in retaliation.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Reading FTA I noticed a couple of things.
First, it doesn't say the employee was a "high-performing salesman". Spandow was a Sales Manager, but it doesn't say what job was offered to the employee from India. My first thought was that $60K for a high performing salesman is absurdly low so I would guess that this guy is a tech of some kind.
Second, the HR response could be taken a couple of ways. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume someone transferring from a foreign country will be less productive at the beginning. If the HR person had phrased it as "experience has shown that a transferee like this competes with other employees earning $50K" it wouldn't have been a problem
Third, given what was said to Spandow I'm inclined to believe there was discrimination here and that Oracle is in deep doo doo.
When he requested a salary of $60,000 a year or more for the employee, equivalent to what his white American counterparts received, he was told instead to offer $50,000, which was 'good money for an Indian.'
Is there any evidence that non-white Americans were being paid less for the same job? Or is this just an attempt to insert race into a discussion where it probably does not belong?
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Try staying in a hotel in India: as a non-Indian you will get charged many times what an Indian is paid.
This seems perfectly reasonable: salaries are dependent on your local market.
Don't those managers at Oracle listen to their (In)Human Resources people when they say "don't discriminate *wink wink* and definitely don't be blatant about it *serious stare*"?
Under the law corporations have the same accountab^H^H^H rights as people.
I think Oracle definitely said something when they fired the guy who wanted to offer his Indian counterpart a proper salary.
Never mind fixing the problem - fix the situation. Annex India!
All the guy had to do was to say the same thing this way: "$50K will meet his salary expectations. Don't offer $60K," and nobody would have raised a fuss. Personally, I've never been paid more than I expected to be paid. So except for a lughead who chose his words poorly, I don't see the crime here.
Hey, everyone misses the point - fill the AMERICAN job with Americans and for the record i am Canadian, importing someone from another nation to steal a job that should go local is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right , so Oracle shame on you
Indian = someone living in India regardless of genetic. $50,000 is good = economic scale statement based on average income in the country. Total racism = 0.
Indian is not an ethnicity.
... into white people's countries? How about non-whites ASK white people if they WANT to share their countries with them, and the five percent of whites who are actually insane enough to say 'yes' can be immediately deported to the worst third world shithole of OUR choice? (The 95% of white people who DON'T want to live in Brazil...)
A white American guy I know personally took an IT job in Bangalore because he could. His salary is actually almost what it would be in the US, but his apartment, utilities, and other necessities are so inexpensive he's hired a driver, cook, maid, and other people. So, he's helped himself to a good lifestyle, employs other people and treats them with dignity and gets to work in IT in a role he finds interesting. I'd like to see any of the non-executive types in Silicon Valley live the way this guy does and still have money in the bank at the end of the month. Were I single, I would seriously consider doing something like this.
Oracle just got caught.
Anybody familiar with the corporate-tech H1B propaganda knows that Oracle's view is entirely normal.
Tech companies want the public to think that H1B are extremely highly skilled, and highly paid.
Anybody who actually works for the tech giants knows that H1Bs are mainly a cost cutting measure.
The US GAO even proved this in 2009.
STOP BRINGING Indians over here in the first place!! If they're lucky enough to get into the states, I think minimum wage would be sufficient if they agree to shower regularly.
how much more should a westerner tech manager expect over their current salary if moving internationally for their company...to a location where the cost of living is higher? just curious.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
Yes, the exchage was a little crass but it is nothign new and the reaction is ridiculous. Grow a friggin pair and thiken up that hide. This hypersensitive society is doomed to .. doom us all.
When he requested a salary of $60,000 a year or more for the employee, equivalent to what his white American counterparts received,
Or what his Indian-American counterpart would have received.
he was told instead to offer $50,000, which was 'good money for an Indian.'
I realize this sounds racist, and maybe the person who said it is racist, but people living in the nation of India (i.e. Indians), do traditionally have lower incomes and might be more likely to accept a lower offer.
Companies do this sort of thing all the time for all sorts of things. A company I worked for offered software developers that were not from the Bay Area, less money (because they thought engineers not from silicon valley would be willing to accept lower offers).
Companies care about money more than treating people fairly. They engage in deception to maximize profits. I am pretty sure that if there was a way to offer American employees less money and get away with it, they would do that too.
I think certainly this is a case of discrimination based on nationality. However I think it is a mischaracterization to say that this is racial discrimination with the information in the article.
I think the dichotomy of "Indian vs. White" is a false one. It should be "Indian vs. American" and "Indian/South Asian descent vs. Europe descent". One can be of European descent with Indian nationality, south asian descent living in Europe or America. I think it is important not to conflate these to distinctions.
Your fired what?
The guy was offered 50k not because of his race but because of the country of his origin and its job market and seeing that he might not spend all that money in california but back in india where it is worth 3x as much, 50k is more than enough. There is no point in paying someone more than 3x as much as they're making in their home countries if they take that kind of money home and then buy a house there from just from one year's labor. It distorts that country's markets and it is plain wrong. If only you had half a brain and used an ounce of it before you posted.
Mono I doesn't work on Iphone
Sorry pall, you've just excluded yourself from the more than half the mobile market. That's why Google really chose Java.
Companies complain about the lack of talent in the US. What they really mean is the lack of talent willing to work for less.
Don't make this a racial thing.
1. This illustrates one of the biggest and richest IT firms knowingly using foreign labor to push-down wages... something they and the politicians they buy always deny. Larry Ellison could pay Americans a bit more and sail a few fewer high-tech sailboats....
2. This illustrated that one of the biggest and richest IT firms is VERY aware of the ethnicity/citizenship of individual workers and assumes this justifies different compensation levels.....something these firms ALWAY deny. (SOUNDS like point #1, but it's a slightly different point with additional implications)
3. This proves there is no shortage of tech workers in the U.S. because the basic rules of a market economy say thet the price of something that is in short supply should RISE. This is contrary to the "party line" of the super-rich tech industry titans and the politicians they purchase.... and, no , it's NOT a Republican thing; most of these companies are Democrat-leaning and most of their CEOs are Democrats, though many stupid Republican politicians support them in the name of being "pro-business"
Every time you use an Oracle product, you help Ellison and friends push-down American IT wages
Every time you "friend" somebody or "like" something of Facebook, you help Zuckerberg fund his "Remove all H-1B limits and import unlimited number of immigrants to push down American wages" campaign
The super-rich computer and internet firms in the U.S. are ALL pushing the politicians in Washington D.C. to eliminate all the limits on cheap imported labor.... which will not even be good for the immigrants over the long-term since the removal of limits will also enable the suppression of immigrant labor pay rates (supply and demand)
He's here to make 10x what he would be paid in India... AND he's stealing an American job. All you politically correct a-holes should try looking for work during a down turn, and take note of who gets the job you applied for. If you haven't seen this, you don't know Silicon Valley... and therefore you should just stfu, because you don't even know what you're talking about... spouting MLK as if it were going to pay your rent when when the economy crashes, and a foreign worker steals your job.
I was contacted by a recruiter from Oracle for a position that I was perfectly qualified for and I never got past that interview because according to the recruiter my previous job at a major US corporation didn't pay me enough to qualify me .....
Problem with Liberal, butt lickers like Spandow is that a Westerner will be paid far less than an Indian - in that they Will Not Be Allowed To Work There In The First Place. Asia's built around racism. There Are Little or No opportunities for Westerners. Get It?
This what happens when accountants drive engineering companies. Remember HP?
Globalization is Zero-Sum.
Amend your Constitution accordingly.
Otherwise your future generations will regret.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Global_Trap
Casteism
A lot of people seem to be forgetting the "National Origin" part of the racial discrimination law.
read the article, they were moving him to their location, not working from India.
even if the person saves 10-20k and sends home, it's = INR 6-12 Lakhs, which when multiplied by PPP (purchasing power parity) is equal to $30-80K for his family/parents back home.
It's TRUE because Indian regime is spending $1 billion/year on space research when 50% of its children are malnourished.
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Every-second-Indian-child-is-malnourished-Report/articleshow/25724848.cms
Casteism
Americans should be worried about creeping Caste system due to H1Bs/Immigrants from India.
Caste is like Cancer. It cannot be cured. It has to be cut-off. Otherwise it'll destroy your middle class.
Google "Companies ruined or almost ruined by Indians".
Casteism
Now slavery by Indians.
Next US will crack on wage slavery by H1B Indians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devyani_Khobragade
Casteism
This is not "racial discrimination". Whenever anybody thinks about what to offer somebody else they will consider what is the lowest figure they can get away with. That is their job. If he does not do that then he should be sued for being an incompetent negotiator.
In this case he thought, reasonably, that he could get away with $50K because the guy was coming from India where $50K is *a lot* of money, not to mention that he gets his foot in the door in a 1st world country and the clock starts ticking before he can bring his family and become a citizen. THAT IS EVEN MORE VALUABLE THAN THE $10k AT STAKE.
So what we are saying here is that we expect our managers to offer everybody to same salary. Well then it cuts both ways. No more negotiation. Just set scales like in the lower ranks of government.
You know what you will end up with? NORTH KOREA.
What is despicable is that they are hiring foreigners rather than investing in their own people. Sowing the seeds of their own destruction.
we need a better word for what happened, because its pretty clear that what went down had less to do with his race and more to do with his country and culture. It seems it was less "He's brown, he should expect less" and more "He's from a third-world country. $50k is a large fortune to him. he doesn't need $60k." So less racism and more classism? first-world eliteism?
Because it worked so well for Apple selling products built by slaves at FoxxCon
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
This is not surprising as ORACLE has demonstrated to act with doubtful business and HR-practices. For example Rodger Smith SVP UGBU has hired Bill Devereaux who is known in the market as spying, lying and infiltrating. PG&E was fined with 390.000$ for the wrongdoing of Bill. PGE subseqently fired Bill - But ORACLE hired this expert and fired many other trustworthy and loyal employees. All of that is public and can be reviewed on google, youtube, CPUC, PGE, ORACLE, etc...
More over ORACLE is firing people in different high cost European countries to hire in low cost countries and circumventing labor, fiscal and social laws.