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Why CurrentC Will Beat Out Apple Pay
itwbennett writes Working closely with VISA, Apple solved many complex security issues making in-person payments safer than ever. But it's that close relationship with the credit card companies that may be Apple Pay's downfall. A competing solution called CurrentC has recently gained a lot of press as backers of the project moved to block NFC payments (Apple Pay, Google Wallet, etc.) at their retail terminals. The merchants designing or backing CurrentC reads like a greatest hits list of retail outfits and leading the way is the biggest of them all, Walmart. The retailers have joined together to create a platform that is independent of the credit card companies and their profit-robbing transaction fees. Hooking directly to your bank account rather than a credit or debit card, CurrentC will use good old ACH to transfer money from your account to the merchant's bank account at little to no cost.
I wont be giving away access to my bank accounts. Sorry, not gonna happen.
And the next time they have a data breach?
That's just full of "Nope!"
Warning: Teh poster of this messaeg is lysdexic
They will also forgo those profit-robbing security measures.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Not when nobody with more than 2 brain cells will use it.
Seriously, I kinda want a buffer between my actual money and the companies I do business with. Someone who will take the hit while dispute is handled. This is why I use a credit card. I've toyed with google wallet and I actually like it as a easy tool to send money between friends. What I don't want to see is a world where to make payments I need to give my personal information to a dozen companies with incompatible standards.
The fact that they are blocking competition is enough to insure I won't be using their product.
No consumer protection? No ability to use one's own card? What is this, 1997?
Nice try, guys.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
The fine article misses one thing: What the customer wants. After at least three breaches, each with millions and millions of card details lost to hackers, nobody wants their data stored on a server that is handled by a retail company. They don't want to hand over all the information to the retail company. They don't want the stone age interface that the retail companies suggest.
And every customer is pissed of in a major way, because both Apple Pay and Google Wallet actually _worked_ until these idiots shut it off.
Apple has some pretty convincing material out describing how Apple Pay works, that can convince the geeks that it is actually safe. Google probably has the same thing, would be nice if someone could post a link. But these jokers? I wouldn't trust them in a million years.
The retailers can build CurrentC but they can't force customers to use it. The payment process sounds terrible; it'll be easier to just pull out your credit card and pay with that.
If I pay with my Visa card, I get cash back, and an extended warranty on my purchases. So far I haven't heard that CurrentC has any of these benefits.
Why would I use it?
Looking through CurrentC it does everything for Merchants, and nothing for customers.
- Requires to be tied to checking account or debit card
- Customer assumes 100% of liability for fraud (?!)
- Retailer can gather all purchase data on a customer
- Requires multistep actions including scanning QR codes
What benefit is in there for the customer? You know people are going to freak out around the liability part. I know the retailers want to reduce their transaction fee, but unless they throw some level of enticement (such as a discount) you probably won't see adoption of this. Conversely a discount will just nullify the transaction fee. I'm of the belief CurrentC is DOA.
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"And may your days be long upon the earth."
http://www.wired.com/2014/10/s... But seriously, give Walmart et al direct access to my bank account using 40 year old ACH technology? And trust them to have no security holes, fraud protection that credit cards provide on individual transactions, etc. etc. etc. I think not.
SystemD does the same thing as CurrentC, but backwards and in high heels!
If the money comes straight from my account and there is a data breach then my money is gone. Period.
With the credit cards in between, they act as a buffer for that. They look to detect fraud, and stop it.
Personally I've had multiple transactions on several different cards over the past 10-15 years that had fraudulent charges. In some cases they called me, in other cases I was the one who noticed them. Either way, I never paid for any of those.
I wonder if the CC Companies will start a "Transaction War" with CurrentC, threatening to either cut-off or raise the per-transaction fees for those retailers who sign exclusive deals with CurrentC?
Afterall, if it does catch-on, that could be a major loss of income for the CC Companies and their attendant verification services.
There is no reason to stop contactless transactions except greed! those retailers pay very low transactions fees (less than 0.2%). They just don't want NFC to be successful as mobile payments standard. In Europe there are five times more NFC contactless POS systems, especially because of EMV, and increasing rapidly.
CurrentC wants to aggregate information about consumers. It also asks for very sensitive information (bank accounts) and will be storing that somewhere where hackers may get to it. If CurrentC used Bitcoin, consumers could make mobile payments without giving away sensitive information and could retain a bit of privacy.
No scheme that requires someone to take out their phone and scan a QR code is going to gain wide spread usage no matter who backs it.
It is time to end the idiocy of giving your money password to everyone you buy something from.
All the advantage is for the stores - not the consumer. Have you seen how you have scan a QR code? How it hooks directly into your bank? The fraud protection on credit cards is vastly superior to ACH transactions. I never use my debit card. Plus I get points on my credit card. In short - what's in it for me. And the answer is nothing.
If you think about it, there is no reason that Apple Pay has to be tied to a credit card. If Apple wanted to, they could go directly to bank accounts just as CurrentC does.. or paypal, or bitcoin, or anything, while keeping the security chip and fingerprint sensor and other one-time-numbers infrastructures. Those would perhaps be a better solution for some .. secure and private and no merchant fees. On the other hand, credit cards do have some fraud refund guarantees that these other methods may not have.
If CurrentC were to become a threat, Apple has plenty of options.
...Since something like CurrentC actually has a hope in hell of existing outside of the USA where direct banking is normal. I doubt there's a way to get Apple Pay or Google Wallet into Canada, for example, where Interac is the overwhelming standard and typically will only debit/credit real bank (or credit union) accounts. That and outside of the US the world uses much more secure and much more convenient cards anyways, so the benefit it slim. I already tap my credit and debit cards on terminals to pay for my purchases here in Canada. For large purchases or at the occasional non-NFC terminal, I use my chip which, while not perfect, prevents stealing my card a hell of a lot better than a magstripe.
Basically, Google and Apple chose the exact WRONG country to work with. The USA does everything banking completely different from everywhere else.
Not even my wife has access to my bank account. Nice try, honey.
Wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I'm sure someone can explain this... to me it sounds like an attempt to invent a new generic credit card that uses an existing popular financial transaction network.
"good old ACH" - where the liability falls in the cardholder's lap.... no thanks.
Unless Apple and Google retaliate by dropping CurrentC from their App Stores. They're pretty vulnerable to this and by turning this into an exclusionary battle they're practically inviting this.
Incidentally the VISA and MasterCard NFC based payment systems are already well deployed in Europe. This isn't really a battle between Apple and CurrentC anyway; it's between the banks or credit card companies and the retailers over fees and control of user data.
It only benefits the retailers. They have silly requires like SS number and driving licence which I assume is for tracking you but I certainly don't trust that info who companies that have been in the news for questionable security. Plus by excluding credit cards consumers lose the protections they get from credit cards should their phone get lost and on top of being a clunky system of scanning bar codes what stops anyone from using it if they can guess my pass code? Android phones especially are easy to unlock if they're using the finger dragging symbol drawing. Not that iPhones are much harder given its only 4 numbers in most cases.
It's great that this will benefit Walmart, all I have to do is give them all my personal details and access to my bank accounts, as well as forfeiting the security reasons for using credit cards.
I hate to sound negative, but exactly what's in it for me?
For starters? If CurrentC was so good, why wasn't it implemented YEARS ago? The technology has been around for it. Heck, they're talking about it working by scanning a QR code with a camera --- something pretty much standard on smartphones for many years now.
It took Apple coming up with a workable solution and releasing it to wake them up, apparently. (Look how long places like CVS and Rite Aid accepted Google Wallet without a care ... but Apple Pay came along, and the whole NFC payment thing was shut down in a matter of 24 hours!)
But the bottom line is just as others commented here already; CurrentC opens up a whole new set of security issues, since paying with it is more like paying with a paper check than anything else. Plus, it lacks in simplicity compared to, "Just wave your phone near the reader for a second, even if the phone is still in sleep mode. Done." It's just popular with the merchants who want to eliminate transaction fees, while disregarding what consumers want (and NEED in the way of better security).
This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard of, and the fact this idea says it will beat Apple Pay is beyond laughable.
Something that's NFC based, card numbers stored on device, with a unique identifier sent via NFC during processing... vs. an app that what... ACH withdrawl directly from an account? And you want my SS# too for the app? Get fucked.
Ya, that's cool, I'ma let you ACH dump my entire checking account, have fun hackers.
CurrentC also requires your SSN and driver's license #. So my choices are
1. give away some of my most important data and trust Target won't loose it
2. put my CC # into an encrypted area on my cell phone and use one time and device specific #s for purchases
3. continue to hand out my CC # to anyone who asks and trust them
4. use cash
I've done 3 and got burned, 4 is really hard, 2 sounds appealing, but 1 scares the hell out of me.
I totally understand Walmart's upset at having to pay CC fees, especially loyalty cards and such which are an utter rip-off for everyone involved (mine takes 1% from the vendor and gives me 0.1%).
But their solution is doomed. You might think that the banks would be interested in this because it allows direct connect and potentially more direct fees. However, CC's are products they sell, and for very little effort they get a cut of a very large market. They might be marginally interested in a direct path, but they are absolutely not going to give up selling CC's every chance they get.
So Walmart is going to make everyone suffer for a while until they realize its dead, and then they'll turn NFC back on and all of this will go away.
1. One of the terms of service is exclusivity - if you use CurrentC, you can't use any other kind of mobile wallet system.
2. It is more like a debit card than a credit card - the money comes directly out of your bank account.
3. As such, it has none of the legal protections that a credit card has. With a debit card, pretty much all banks offer the same protection on debit cards anyway, because it's good for their business. CurrentC won't be run by banks, it will be run by some of the largest retailers in the country - Walmart, etc. None of the political pressures that keep banks on the straight and narrow apply.
4. CurrentC requires - cannot possibly work without - that you give the retailer all the information needed to take as much money as they choose directly from your bank account. These are the same retailers who have had hundreds of millions of credit card numbers stolen from their servers in the last couple of years. They have proven, conclusively, that they cannot be trusted.
5. CurrentC is about more than just transaction fees. It is also about turning the customer into a product - they require a lot of personal information that is completely irrelevant to the transaction - like health information (which they are also incapable of protecting) - to set up the account.
6. CurrentC is based on QR Codes, which is just stupid.
I'll go back to carrying cash before I use a mess like that. Or barter. Or growing my own food on a mountain top somewhere.
Apple Pay became the biggest wireless payment solution in just 72 hours. And it doesn't involve the most convoluted QR code scanning scheme on the planet to work. And the 50 other things other people have mentioned...
Not to dispute your point, but your conclusion is wrong. When the largest backer is Wal Mart, you don't assume a high I.Q. in the customer base.
That's all it is. From someone who runs a 5 person tech design shop with a dozen clients that no one has heard of. WalMart and other majors will build in whatever it takes to process cards at whatever price from 0.01 to current rates.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Let's see, CurrentC collects personal information. It cuts out the credit card companies. Consumers like their bank ergo their credit card companies. It doesn't turn transactions into anonymous one use tokens that prevent fraud. The source of data breaches is the very source of this "solution." There's so many things wrong with CurrentC and somehow it is going to win?
Yeah. Right.
Why should we as consumers vote against Apple/Google and the banks?
This piece reads like some fluff piece by the CurrentC propaganda^hmarketing department.
Does someone have an online "List" of Retailers that accept CurrentC instead of ApplePay/Google Wallet?
If that existed, we geeks would know which Retailers to boycott.
Promoted correctly, even the "normals" would get it, and perhaps ensure that this Fraud Machine (CurrentC) is stillborn.
The danger these companies are overlooking is that V/MC have grown fat on their percentage take of every transaction, and that money is probably going to start shifting into marketing and regulatory pushes to squash this. "Everywhere you want to be" will turn into "Would you give Target or Home Depot a stack of withdrawal tickets to your personal bank account?" And "Mastercard, it's the financial protection you need."
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The ONLY way I would even think of using this is if I could link it to a Paypal account (backed by a CC, of course)
Otherwise I have no intention of using it. (And I'm talking my intention is only like 1% over nothing at that point because I don't want another app to bring up just to BUY something for the merchant's convenience.)
ApplePay is novel and I've used it several times for "fun" and I'm sure it's more secure but it's still easier for me to whip out my CC (which has chip and pin) and use it over my iPhone. (unless I'm texing in line... or surfing the net in line...)
But NOTHING ties directly into my bank account... I saw Star Trek the Motion Picture! I know what happens when you channel the phasers directly into the main engines! It's not pretty!
So let me get this straight. They have a solution that is harder to use, less secure, and requires me to give direct access to my bank account? Why is this any better than using a debit card? They're delusional if they think this is a good solution.
The retailers have joined together to create a platform that is independent of the credit card companies and their profit-robbing transaction fees.
Credit card transaction fees get passed on to customers. They generally do not eat that cost. The incidence of payment is entirely on the end customer. This argument is bogus. I don't mind them saving me as the end customer money but it isn't their pocket it comes out of.
I'm not sure Apple Pay will "win", but I'm absolutely certain CurretC will "lose". It's a great change for the merchants, and horrible for the consumers (in contrast to Apple Pay, which is neutral for merchants, and positive for consumers). Unless the merchants stop taking credit cards (and I think that's unlikely), CurrentC is already dead.
Very US - rest of the world already has this NFC standard. If ApplePay were proprietary I would agree it would lose out long term, but it's not - this is a global standard. As soon as Apple start enabling international cards for it, it's just BAU for non-US retailers. This isn't even a change, it's already happened - for example, I bought my lunch using this system earlier today.
The retailers can build CurrentC but they can't force customers to use it. The payment process sounds terrible; it'll be easier to just pull out your credit card and pay with that.
Agreed. It's like using a debit card but more cumbersome and with less legal protection. All the benefits are for the merchant and none for the consumer.
Not like banks have any profit-robbing security measures in place. If there weren't laws in place forcing them to indemnify/limit the customer exposer against fraud, do you think they would bother?
When banks started to issue VISA/MasterCard credit cards in my country (one of the ex-commie countries) some 15 years ago, they had no clue about what they were doing - when I asked how it works in case of fraud, the clerk told me with a straight face that I have to bring a receipt from the sale and they will claim the money back from the seller. Yeah right, someone who swipes my cc number is going to give me a receipt ... The clerk couldn't fathom that such situation could occur, because nobody ever uses the card outside of an ATM or a POS terminal, right? (and those cannot be tampered with, right?)
Basically, if someone swiped your card, you were screwed - hopefully you had a sufficiently low withdrawal/payment limit on the card, otherwise your account could have been completely emptied.
Not defending CurrentC here (can be pretty much even worse), but the illusion that a credit card is somehow more secure is really that - an illusion ...
So what makes the backers of CurrentC think that Apple and Google will allow a CurrentC app in either of their respective app stores after their methods were blocked?
Sure, the phone-enabled buying stuff is nice, but you know the main reason I shop with plastic? So I don't have to deal with change.
I'm sure that if they could, merchants would start charging extra for the expensive "credit card"-style transactions to encourage people to use "debit card"-style transactions instead, but as far as I know, Visa and Mastercard won't let them discriminate.
So why not create a debit-only "shopping card" backed by the same ACH system that CurrentC uses? Not only would this save money, but it would also allow for (or force on consumers, sigh) similar customer-tracking/loyalty programs that CurrentC allows for (or forces on consumers :( ).
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The only company that needs to act is Apple. If MCX (currentC) retailers are going to actively blocking Apple Pay (and other NFC based Wallets), then Apple just rejects the CurrentC app from the App Store. Just like that, no CurrentC from anyone with an iPhone. Conceivably, Google could do the same thing with the Play Store, but Apple has a more (un)defined policy on rejecting apps for arbitrary reasons and it's action covers all iOS users.
The merchants are well aware that with Apple Pay, bye bye customer data mining...
In addition to paying Slashdot, IT World should pay every single person who mistakenly visits their site.
Really, who reads IT World articles?
Right now it is very easy to dispute with my credit card. CurrentC needs to offer the same protections. If they do, count me in.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
And every customer is pissed of in a major way, because both Apple Pay and Google Wallet actually _worked_ until these idiots shut it off.
Pissed might be too strong a word but I have a Walgreens right down the street from the CVS and Rite-Aid. Only one supports Apple Pay so guess which one I'm going to use if I want to use Apple Pay? (or Google's alternatives) I'm certainly not going to do business with someone who makes my life less convenient. This CurrentC "solution" is all benefit to the merchant and none to me. I can't see a single redeeming benefit to me. Less convenient, more risk and seemingly limited liability protection? No thanks.
Apple has some pretty convincing material out describing how Apple Pay works, that can convince the geeks that it is actually safe. Google probably has the same thing, would be nice if someone could post a link. But these jokers? I wouldn't trust them in a million years.
Dead on. Retailers have clearly shown they cannot be trusted to keep customer data secure. It's bad enough with a credit card. There is no way in hell I'm giving any major retailer direct (ACH) access to my bank account. They must be doing some heavy drugs if they think I am dumb enough to do that.
Not gonna happen.
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What the hell is this crap about scanning QR codes? I've had a smartphone for 3 years, and I've never scanned a QR code. I've never had a good reason to do so, and CurrentC isn't going to change that.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
ApplePay uses standard NFC payment protocols. That's why it was working at CVS and RiteAid without them ever doing anything. Its not proprietary at al.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this mean that (for most cards) when you swipe your card, they ask you debit or credit and the only option will be debit now? From my experience if you purchase something via Debit you get charged the transaction fee as opposed to choosing the credit option on a debit card which makes the retailer pay that fee. Is this the same thing? Similar? or very different?
There are several reasons I use CC despite the fact that they charge about 3.5% to retailers.
-- I get 1-2% cash back
-- Extra safety: Last year, I booked my hotel rooms through one of the travel websites. I got the confirmation email which said non-smoking but when I reached to the hotel, the room was smoking and non-smoking vacancy were all suites at extra charge which I had to pay. The travel website refused to accept the fault initially denying that I had requested non-smoking and finally saying that non-smoking is just a request. I talked to my CC company and they refunded me the extra charge and reduced that from the original payment to the travel website. Will your bank do this?
-- Extra warranty: Once I had a $2000 laptop which broke 11 months later when traveling to India. The manufacturer told me to ship to USA location and told me that it can only be returned back to India and it will take 7-10 weeks. I decided to send them for repair when I came back to USA. Unfortunately, that was 12 months later and they refused to fix it under warranty. Fortunately, I had paid with CC which extends warranty by another year. Will your bank do this?
-- My CC limit is like my overdraft protection. Banks charge monthly service fee for this.
-- When my CC was hacked and someone tried to use it, I got a call from my CC company. They immediately canceled fake txn and issued me new card. Good luck if similar things happens with your bank money
I never carry forward balances, so never pay finance charges or interest. I still think CC fees are high, but the alternate solution of using ACH is good enough. Besides it will only increase retailers profit as they are not going to give you discount for using ACH.
Is why this seems to be either/or for the merchants. If I want to use my credit card, let me use any way I want to (swipe, ApplePay, Google Wallet, etc.). It's not like they're going to stop accepting credit cards altogether. Likewise, if I want to use my checking account, I should be able to use any method I want (write a physical check, use my RedCard, CurrenC, whatever). If I bloody well want to use cash (which is what I do most of the time now anyway), they bloody well take it and tell their CSRs to stop rolling their eyes when they have to count out change.
This is one case where both Apple and Google could and should work together, to jointly ban the app until the companies involved open NFC back up for transactions again. Without an app CurrentC is dead in the water.
Especially Google should be upset, because Android users had working NFC payments at many of these stores for years before the ApplePay launch triggered the NFC lockout.
Frankly I'd almost be OK with both Apple and Google banning the app on the grounds of it being so close to spyware as you cannot tell the difference... it requires a lot of information and collects as much as it can that it doesn't need permission for.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Unlike credit cards, CurrenC will make it very difficult, though not impossible, for people to pay for goods and services using money they don't have. What percentage of the purchases made at Walmart are made on credit? Retailers depend on consumer debt. I don't see how this is good for the consumer without substantial incentives or the retailer (since people can't spend what they don't have in the accounts).
I see no way CurrentC will be anything but a steaming flop! There's no way I'm giving them my bank info.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Target's already doing this with their Target Debit Card...
Think I fell for it, even for 5% off? Hell no.
Robbing? Really? Merchants don’t have to accept credit card transaction and Apple Pay cost them no more than a regular credit card transaction.
This is the only article of many of which I have read that didn’t think CurrentC was dead on arrival – before arrival actually, as it won’t arrive until next year. It will save the consumer no money per transaction, take more steps, is far less secure and has virtually no liability protections.
Credit Card companies have spent decades creating ways to discover and discourage credit card cheats. This system dispenses with all that – Caveat Emptor I guess.
Merchants expect no blowback when consumers discover this all about dodging credit card fees, avoiding liability and invading privacy to track an individual’s every purchase for marketing purposes?
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cw
chris watts íë¦ìS ì(TM)ì
No, it's not for free. Trust me, you are paying for it in the form of increased prices.
Yes of course, but tell me with a straight face that wide CurrentC adoption means lowered prices from the retailer...
Didn't think so.
So why SHOULDN'T you prefer to get the benefits of using a CC if you are going to be paying the same exact amount for something anyway?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It gives them direct access to your account.
It's inconvenient to use.
Their competition will use Apple Pay.
Let the games begin.
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How about using neither system. I don't trust apple with my data, and I don't trust any data stored in an app on my phone, regardless of OS (but esp android).
I'd rather just have a card with chip+pin or good old fashioned cash.
I don't blame retailers for wanting to cut out CC fees, hel I would want to do that too. I don't blame them for not wanting to outfit hundreds of POS devices with NFC support, that is costly, when CurrentC can achieve similar with existing hardware.
I don't trust apple or google, period. Only a fool would trust either of them for anything.
ApplePay is just Apple's brand name for their implementation of NFC-based payment standards. The reason why ApplePay worked at CVS & Rite Aid was they supported the NFC standard, not just ApplePay. ApplePay just happened to get more traction in the first week than Google Wallet had gotten in however many years that's been available.
Are these companies really willing to have all their credit card processing pulled? Simple as that and CurrentC dies.
While its understandable that WalMart is trying to develop its own payment system, people do not have faith in retail stores after all of the data breaches that occurred over past few years. Those breaches seem to be continuously increasing.
Apple developed ApplePay to try to have a centralized payment system, and also maintain high security in the process with using the Secure Finger Print to authorize a transaction. I do not know of any point of sale machines (that you swipe cred card during checkout) that uses Finger Print to authorize a transaction.
If WalMart wants to keep pushing this, Apple should stop selling their products in those stores. With holidays right around the corner now consumers will go to other avenues to buy their Apple products and that means less $$$ for WalMart and all the other stores WalMart has convinced to stop using ApplePay.
Consumers know what they want to buy, and I do not think they care what store they buy it from (especially if some stores carry an item and others do not).
WalMart can play this game if they want but it is going to end up hurting their sales in the long run. That is just my opinion.
What if enough people went to Walmart, filled up their carts with stuff, and checked out, then tried to pay with Apple Pay/Google Wallet, and when told that form of payment isn't accepted, they just walk out? It would kind of suck for the cashiers, stock clerks, and other customers behind them, but it this happened several thousand times around the country, the corporate offices would almost certainly take notice.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
If it's not easier to use than simply taking our your credit card or cash, then people won't use it. Also, there's no fraud protection.
Many are saying Apple Pay offers nothing to the merchant. Tell that to the former CEO of target ( http://www.startribune.com/bus... ) While tracking marketing data for customers is important to merchants, not having expensive data breaches is more important. Also, everyone seems to be ignoring that POS systems can be programmed to allow customers to enter their membership card first (or type in their phone number) enabling _plenty_ of customer tracking. Walgreens does this, and they use Apple Pay. The get all the customer-tracky goodness without the PCI-just-isn't-good-enough-any-more credit card information business danger.
.. new narrative: Those evil retailers hate Apple and the credit card companies.
I always found it amusing that articles used to say that Google didn't know what it is doing with NFC or that NFC is lame. Some articles stated that NFC isn't good enough for Apple, but if Apple did NFC they'd win. The problem is that those articles focused on the technology and not the true gatekeepers. The gatekeepers are the credit card companies and the retailers. A person can't use NFC if there are no NFC terminals. There are few NFC terminals because there is not reason to have them. Some companies that issued NFC plastic stopped doing so because there just wasn't demand.
Now we have a liability shift deadline fast approaching. Terminals must support EMV. It's not surprising that many EMV terminals also support NFC. But who made that happen? The liability shift. Not Apple. Not Google.
So now we have a perfect storm. We have a company that is great at marketing their new NFC tech. People finally become aware of NFC around the time that banks are reissuing their cards with chips in them. We have a way for phones to easily participate in EMV transactions wirelessly. We also have a consortium of companies about to launch a mobile payment system. Who has the most power in this? They are going to shut that interface door and be the gatekeepers for mobile payments. Then they can focus on the real war. Not a war between Apple and Google, but a war between retailers and the credit card companies.
There are still ways to get around this and have "mobile payments" tied to your phone that will work anywhere. Someone needs to make EMV adapters for phones. Or maybe "Plastc" will go big. But either one of those things is too high a bar for most people. They'd rather just pull the plastic out of their pocket.
CurrentC will win? Seriously?
It's a pain to set up and they require a ridiculous amount of information, including your bank account, driver's license, and SSN.
It's a pain to use: Unlock phone, find app, launch app, read store's QR code, approve transaction, let store read your QR code. Cash would be faster.
It's a security nightmare: In addition to the information above, they track your purchases and share all your personal info—even what medical info they can glean—with their merchants, any of which could be breached. On top of that, you lose the fraud protection your old credit card company gave you.
So... what's in it for the customer? Why would anyone use CurrentC? Merchants are asking their customers to give up privacy, protection and convenience just so the merchants can save money. It's not going to happen.
On the other hand, Apple Pay and Google Wallet are simple, easy and secure (particularly Apple's solution) and there's no special setup or fees required to accept them, so why would they die out? It won't be some massive nationwide rollout like CurrentC, but shoppers will use them where they can, and stores that don't handle NFC now will slowly adopt it to match their competitors.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
"(...) Apple solved many complex security issues making in-person payments safer than ever".
Particularly brilliant was the method of double-charging customers. That is really safe for Apple and makes sure the system is profitable.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/22/technology/mobile/apple-pay-double-charge/
Ever tried to pay using your work or parking lot RFID card? It doesn't work, even if it's compatible with the NFC standard too. Even tough Apple Pay uses an open standard (NFC), it is still a proprietary solution. Just like Facetime is a proprietary protocol no matter what's hiding behind.
If they let me set up a prepaid account instead of debiting from my checking account, I might use it.
But only if it works so well that I don't need to carry a credit card. I really wanted to like Google Wallet but it's been too unreliable to count on - out of a dozen or so attempts to use it, 3 were unable to be completed. Once no matter how much I swiped my phone, the merchant's terminal wouldn't register the payment - after a half dozen emails with Google support, I finally deleted my wallet and re-added it and that solved the problem. Then, on two separate occasions I was unable to make a payment when the app complained about being unable to connect to the internet after I entered my PIN. The worst problem I've experienced with my credit card is having to swipe again when the first swipe doesn't work.
If I have to carry a credit card as backup anyway (and have it ready to go when the phone fails to pay), I may as well just swipe the card in the first place. All of the merchants where I'm able to use Google Wallet also allow no-signature transactions for small amounts, so it's actually more convenient than unlocking my phone to make a payment. I wish the USA's banking system would move into the modern century with contactless chip-and-pin cards.
I wonder how long the retailers, that are blocking NFC, would last if people start to do organized protests by taking fully loaded shopping cart through the entire checkout process only to say. "No NFC payment? I want to talk to the manager." Then when the manager comes over and says they don't accept NFC payments anymore say never mind and walk away from the transaction.
With Christmas shipping season coming up I'm sure the last thing the retailers want to have to deal with is the extra workload of protesters walking away from transactions taking up the time of the managers, cashiers, everyone waiting in line and the people that do stock. A well timed stream of protesters each hour could really add up.
Thing is, Apple Pay used existing standards for contactless EMV. Which is why every single terminal that accepted Apple Pay already accepted Google Wallet.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
HORRIBLE HORRIBLE system... WHY does it need access to my health information? WHY would I allow these companies who have repeately had one data breach after another have direct ACH access to my checking account? WHY would I want to give them even more direct access to my personal information when I already HATE how much they currently have.
NO THANK YOU!
And weren't they by LAW required to support chip+pin CC payments starting fall of 2015? If so, how exactly are they going to stop NFC payments after that?
CurrentC is a dead end no matter how they spin it.
These slime balls would offer the same liability protection "voluntarily" in the introduction period. Once it takes hold they will transition out of that, and leave the customers holding the bag for fraudulent transactions.
But I don't think customers are going to fall for this. Someone steals your hard earned money, and the CurrentC system gives you a run around, the bad publicity travels fast. So they may not be able to weasel out later. But still I would rather have the protection from a federal law rather than the kindness of a private money dealing company. Money changers were found to be unscrupulous by one Jesus, son of Joseph, Nazareth, Judea some 2000 odd years ago.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Because merchants are probably going to start charging you a fee to use your credit card. They may hide it by jacking up prices then offer a "CurrentC discount" or something (sort of like the so-called "cash discount" at the gas station), since it's still tricky to charge a CC fee, but merchants are getting reamed and are trying hard to find a way to stop it. Where do you think that cash back on your Visa card comes from?
I would rather pay an extra 3-5% on every transaction at one of these retailers (with the option of simply never shopping there, which, at present, I pretty much don't anyway) than expose myself to the possibility of having my entire checking account drained when just one of them manages to get hacked and lose my account information to thieves.
I don't care if they overhaul and rebrand this piece of crap so it's less pathetically insecure and inconvenient—even if they make it as simple to use as Apple Pay is now. As long as they a) demand my bank account number, b) demand my Social Security number, or c) demand to be able to track vast amounts of information about me, there isn't a way in Hell I'm signing up for CurrentC or any service like it.
As it stands, it's just a total no-brainer. I can't understand why anyone would rather use CurrentC than cash or a credit card, let alone Apple Pay.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
It is not just security which is an issue but privacy as well. Instead of minimal personal details which are not shared between retailers CurrentC will give them access to far more information about myself and my purchase patterns across multiple retailers. I much prefer a third party system since this at least limits the information each individual retailer has.
Let's pretend CurrentC will allow credit cards, even though the whole point of the system is to circumvent credit card processing fees...why would I want to use it then? Using a credit card is an easier checkout experience than using CurrentC. It provides no benefit. Why insert a middle man?
On the flip side, it does come with a lot of drawbacks, since they collect my SSN, driver's license number, health data on my phone, location tracking, and transaction tracking, then store all of it in the cloud. They also move the liability for transaction fraud from the processor to the consumer.
It's customer hostile, no matter how you cut it. Even if it offers credit cards, there's no reason to use it, and plenty of reasons not to.
and if someone breaches this, will my bank account be wiped out?
that's also why I don't have a debit card.
When I have an issue with my CurrentC bill, should I expect fair service on a payment dispute from a corporation owned by the company that is screwing me over?
How about in the case of stolen CurrentC credentials?
Sorry, but seeing how many big name retailers can't even secure their customers credit card details there's no way in hell that I'll ever trust them with my bank details.
CuurenC is strickly a US olny solution.
Meanwhile NFC is being adopted in many countries around the world.
Apple thinks on a Worldwide basis. Too bad that most Americans don't think outside their county/state.
Why CurrentC will beat ApplePay...
And here's why I don't give a damn : Screw NFC.
Bad analogy. Apple Pay was accepted everywhere NFC payments were accepted, no additional equipment required. Rite Aid had to turn off ALL NFC payments in order to block Apple Pay, blocking Google Wallet and contact-less credit card payments as well. Apple Pay works within the existing NFC payment system, just like Google Wallet.
Seriously, no wifi, less space than a Nomad, when has Slashdot EVER gotten something about Apple wrong?
just a ghost in the machine.
"Hooking directly to your bank account rather than a credit or debit card, CurrentC will use good old ACH to transfer money from your account to the merchant's bank account at little to no cost."
You know damn well that they give it to you for free for now, then there will be fees in the future.
Who's leg do I have to hump to get a dry martini around here?
"that is independent of the credit card companies and their profit-robbing transaction fees" - Sounds a bit more like a sales pitch than an article to me. From what I've read, you can't use a credit card. I always use my rewards card, so that's out for me. The process is wonkier, having to unlock your phone, open an app, tap to put it in scan or QR display mode, get the camera to focus if it's scanning, wait for a reply from the servers, etc. vs hold your phone near the terminal and rest your finger on the touch ID sensor. If someone gets your phone and can unlock it, they can pay for things. The thing that makes Apple Pay different is that, except for a fairly involved process, touch ID guarantees I'M THE ONE WITH MY PHONE. Verifying my actual, physical presence and tokenizing my transaction are the two things I want out of a payment system. Note: I don't have an iPhone 6, nor do I particularly want one, but Apple's system looks like my ideal setup.
... just like Google Wallet is, just like any and all bank apps are. What exactly is your point? The OP didn't want Apple to be the sole vendor controlling payment methods, which is not at all in the cards with Apple Pay.
My work land-line phone won't connect to Skype, Hangouts, or Facetime, or whatever Facebook is calling their thing, even though they all use a speaker and microphone. Yes, your RFID card comparison makes no sense.
CurrentC will support all the major credit cards and you'll be able to choose which one you want to use... just like Google Wallet does now.
That's not what their own website says. They only support checking accounts, gift cards and store cards. So where are you getting this other info from? And if they are supporting CCs why would you choose to use CurrentC over simply swiping the card? The whole point of NFC payments is to make the payment process simpler. CurrentC seems to want to make it much more complex with no gain to the consumer.
The Merchants of course would love for you to use a debit card or their own store card, but they aren't stupid. They'll also support credit cards just to gain adoption.
Apparently they are. Since there is absolutely zero statements from MCX to back up your claim.
They won't be out any additional $$$ over what they would have to pay if people just used a credit card in the first place and they'll avoid the additional fee that Apple Pay requires.
[citation needed]
Apple on the other hand won't like it because they won't be getting their F-U fee.
[citation needed]
CurrentC will be and also-ran until hacks and stolen data bankrupts one of them.
FTC/DOJ will be on this for Conspiracy in Restraint of Trade (sooner or later)
Remember when USA sued Microsoft over Free Browsers { heh it seems pretty clear that was a mistake - How is it now legal for Google not only to embed Browser code in their OS, but to even make it the whole OS... Wow.}
Apple makes nothing from ApplePay. Zero. Nyet. Nada. Zippo.
They {CurrentC & Co} did NOT stop taking Visa, MasterCard, Amex et al, they only refused a better way to access them out of GROSS FEAR and inability to compete as well as a urgent need to collect more confidential customer data for parasites to hack and steal.
Let's pretend CurrentC will allow credit cards, even though the whole point of the system is to circumvent credit card processing fees
Why pretend? CurrentC does allow processing through store credit cards.
Suppose today Walmart and Target both advertise baby formula for $9.99, based on making a 10% profit over their total cost of $9. If the new system saves Target 4% in fees, that means they're able to advertise $9.59 - and even specifically say "save $.40 vs Walmart. You bet that idea gives Target executives an erection.
Of course when they do, Walmart matches the price reduction. That's part A of the two-part recipe that made Walmart the largest retailer - a) lowest prices b) even in smaller towns.
Because of the inflation tax, such price reductions tend to be short term, of course, so what happens most often in practice is that cost reductions delay price increases. This system would reduce costs by 3%-5% if it were successful, and around the same time a minimum wage increase or Obamacare or higher gas prices will increase the store's costs. The two changes offset and the store doesn't have to raise prices to cover the increased cost due to whatever.
Fair point, I stand corrected. But what of it? It doesn't change anything else of what I said, does it?
Visa: http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/Visa-USA-Interchange-Reimbursement-Fees-2014-Oct-18.pdf
MasterCard: http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/Merchant_Rates_April_2014.pdf
Generally, the bigger and less risky the merchant, the lower the markup they pay on top of those fees. For Walmart (retail is not particularly risky and they have $billions in transaction revenue), the markup is probably some fraction of $.01 per transaction. A small travel agent (risky and low volume) pays a lot more.
For MCX (CurrentC is the MCX mobile product) to overtake V/MC as a payment platform, debit card consumers (since I don't think you can ACH a true credit card account) have to effectively give up the dispute/chargeback process. Since there would still be credit card users out there wanting to pay, it seems unlikely.
Former Walmart CEO Lee Scott reportedly once said “I don’t know that MCX will succeed, and I don’t care. As long as Visa suffers.”
CurrentC is basically trying to side step the issue of retailers needing to update security for PCI Compliance and PCI DSS. PCI compliance is effectively a consumer
protection that requires retailers to maintain an adequate level of security in all of their systems that handle credit or debit transactions.
It incentivizes security by placing 100% responsibility for fraud on retailers that fail to provide the minimum pci compliant level of security. It also prohibits the use of EOL operating systems that are no longer security patched such as WindowsXP and mandates firewalls, antivirus and other security.
But CurrentC put all liability on the consumer and completely bypasses the penalties and merchant liabilities associated with PCI DSS. Credit and debit cards provide a buffer of security and dispute resolution between consumers and merchants but CurrentC wants to go straight into people bank accounts.
This is a hot sweaty nightmare of bad. I dont think anyone is realizing how nearly impossible it is to reverse a fraudulent bank transfer.
Having said that I can see where banks could provide protection to consumers by creating consumer accounts that require individual consumer authentication prior to any ACH transfer from the account. However Banks dont provide that level of security to non-business account customers.
My prediction is that within 6 months of going live the amount of fraud will force the FTC to step in. I personally think credit card companies are the devil but CurrentC is worse.
Beyond the obvious other pitfalls for people in the know (consumer liability is far worse, privacy is far worse with the retailers getting more data- the terms and conditions even require you to approve the collection of health related data), there are huge red flags. I just don't see it happening with sustainable "carrots" to keep consumers using the app - it's too high maintenance for it to be worth it except for massive discounts far in excess of what the merchant fees are. Not to mention one would expect the credit card companies to fight back.
If you buy with Visa or any other third-party based system, all they know is that you spent $75 at Rite Aid.
If you buy with CuirrentC -- Rite Aid knows you bought a pack of diapers, a carton of smokes, and a sixpack of comdoms, size small. PLUS they know who you are, so they can target their ads and special offers. No thanks.
The MERCHANTS want this information very, very badly. Sadly, the CUSTOMERS are mostly indifferent.
Privacy issues aside, very few people will switch to using a system that's MORE labor-intensive than swiping a credit card rather than less. As I understand it, CurrentC requires the customer to:
1. Open the app on their phone;
2. Scan a QR code (or type in a numerical code if the scan doesnÃ(TM)t work), after which their phone will display a second QR code;
3. Hold the phone up for the clerk to scan the second QR code (or, again, type in a numerical code if the scan doesnÃ(TM)t work).
Can you imagine being in line at Wal-Mart behind five average people trying to make this work? Further, can you imagine any of those same people trying it a second time if the first doesn't go smoothly and makes the transaction take three times as long?
The product hasn't been released yet and won't be until the 2nd quarter of 2015.
And yet MCX has plenty of detailed information on how the system works and what payment methods they will accept.
They have plenty of time to get their ducks in a row.
Translation: You have no actual proof.
The information on the website isn't up-to-date. http://www.forbes.com/sites/pe... [forbes.com]
What is that link supposed to show me? It doesn't list anything about MCX accepting credit cards. It also does not back up your unsubstantiated claim about an Apple "F-U fee". The fee is simply the bog standard payment processing fee. And Apple having negotiated discounted processing fees would actually make them the opposite of an "F-U fee".
I had a 4S that I was perfectly happy with, but with Apple Pay protection for my credit card information from the likes of Target, Home Depot, etc, I decided the benefits and safety of tokenized NFC were just too great and upgraded.
There is no way in hell I'll hand over even more information (driver's license, Social Security number, address and bank account information) to a company I don't have to just so I can shop at certain stores.
I don't trust these companies to keep their system secure. They weigh the costs of breaches with the cost to protect the data and if they costs of breaches were low enough, they would sell your information to thieves directly. They don't have to deal with the consequences of ruined credit, fake identities following you around, etc. They only look at the balance sheet. That's it.
I was hoping places like Target would announce Apple Pay capability but instead they do this. I plan to boycott all who are in this consortium. They are again looking at the balance sheets and putting pretty much everything at risk is perfectly fine with them. I'm surprised they don't want retirement account information and access to our medical records too. I bet we'd get a nifty coupon for $1 off some stupid Wal-Mart logoized insulated can wrap or something...
As pointed out by other posters, letting anything mess directly with your bank account is chancy. Debit card usage is dangerous enough in and of itself. I don't and won't use mine for anything except putting deposits in the automated teller at my bank. Letting a payment system have direct access to your bank account? Insane.
My point is that Apple Pay is proprietary. I never said the Bank apps aren't. Also if Skype, Hangout, Facetime and Facebook were open standards, you could develop a bridge between your land-line phone and these VoIP protocols. But since they are proprietary it isn't possible.
Not the mp4 codec Divx, the thankfully now dead DIVX. CurrentC, a direct link into their customer's bank account, may be a dream for some retailers, but it takes away protections from the consumer. Like DIVX, it needs to be stillborn.
Bad analogy. Apple Pay was accepted everywhere NFC payments were accepted, no additional equipment required
Yes, because it rely on proprietary networks/protocols owned by credit cards company and/or banks. Apple Pay is just an additional middle man.
Apple charges a fee to processors to use their service.
Yes, so does anyone who processes credit card payments. And? Did you somehow expect them to use Apple Pay as a way to lose money? I don't see how recouping their costs as an "F-U fee" other than you're simply being an idiot. Especially when Apple negotiated decreased fees so their system is actually cheaper to use than it otherwise could have been.
Credit card companies charge merchants a fee to use their cards.
Yeah, and? Did you think this was going to be a revelation to me?
Not because of Apple Pay, but because it requires direct access to your bank account. Too dangerous. On top of that, it looks cumbersome as hell. Not nearly as easy to use as the NFC tech.
-Eric
The thing is it requires zero changes for the merchant. If they have an NFC reader for payment "it just works".
The proprietary part is on the bank side not the merchant.
You don't give access to your main account. You give access to a small account used for paying online.
we were debating this on irc. all google and apple have to do is deny app store entry and everybody loses.
Hooking directly to your bank account rather than a credit or debit card, CurrentC will use good old ACH to transfer money from your account to the merchant's bank account at little to no cost.
This sounds plain dangerous, so my suggestion if you're planning on using this is to set up a separate account then transfer only a minimal amount into it.
I'm wondering how secure these phone based paytools are and I wonder how long until I read about someones account being drained.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Why not have Apple and Google disable the nfc chip working with those curentC terminals ?
The stores terminals are doing the same thing in principle .
Well, Google doesn't charge any additional fees to anyone for using Google Wallet.
Neither does Apple.
Apple charges for using Apple Pay.
Nope. From Apple:
How much does it cost to accept Apple Pay?
Apple does not charge users, merchants or developers to use Apple Pay for payments. Your credit and debit transactions will continue to be handled by the payment networks.
So are you telling me that Apple is lying? Otherwise, you're simply full of shit and spreading falsehoods.
The fact of the matter is the merchants are supporting CurrentC.
Did you have a point beyond stating a tautology? What relevance does that have to the fact that you haven't backed up your claims in any substantial way.
Kind of hard to use Apple Pay if they turn it off.
Again an irrelevant statement.
Exactly, and the reason it works this way is that Apple Pay looks like a regular NFC credit card to the retailer's systems. The only special thing that Apple Pay does is the generation of a one-time virtual credit card number that only works for that one transaction. The backends translate this into a transaction on your funding CC number.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Apple Pay's interface with your CC account is proprietary. Its interface with the retailer is most definitely non-proprietary, even if the standards aren't particularly open.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Yeah, Walmart and other retailers bow to customer pressure like grass in the wind.
This whole summary reads like a really bad joke. CurrentC is already dead. Google Wallet and Apple Pay will utterly destroy them like they are destroying Paypal already.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
who is responsible for fraudulent charges? Or if a retailer accidentally charges me twice? Takes days to redeposit a refund? When a data breach occurs and now they have my bank info? Sorry, but I like having a credit card company on my side; and I have never ever had a problem charging something back or fixing an error with them. Merchants and my bank, however...
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
So I have to maintain a store credit card for each place I want to buy from? What a joke.
I have never liked QR codes (just... stupid), nor how they are used (too hard to align the imager when my hand is unsupported - too picky a system).
I also have zero interest in giving merchants more power, taking all responsibility for the transaction unto myself, or tying anything public to a checking account or debit card.
In other words, you will never see me, nor my family, participate in a CurrentC transaction. In the absence of NFC I will just keep using credit cards at the POS until Chip & Pin finally happens in the U.S.
Stores do not care less if you have the money in your bank account as long as they get paid. If you pay with a credit card, the store gets paid regardless of whether you pay your credit card bill or not. The credit card issuing bank gets stuck with the loss if you don't have the money to pay your bill. That is one reason credit card swipe fees are charged to merchants, to cover the risk of non-payment (plus of course huge profits to the banks). Using CurrentC (or a debit card) actually risks the merchant losing a sale if your card/account is declined due to insufficient funds.
CurrentC is all about cutting the amount of fees merchants pay credit card banks (or indirectly shifting them to consumers) and collecting marketing information on consumers via purchase history/etc. It has nothing to do with whether you actually have funds to pay for a transaction or not.
When the product is released, they won't require you provide SSN, drivers license number or heath data.
Because you say so?
Again, they aren't stupid... they want you to use the service... not give people excuses not to use it.
Why should I believe they aren't stupid? Their past actions run contrary to your claims.
Regarding, why would you use it in the first place... the answer to that is discounts and promotions. That will be the carrot they use to gain adoption
They already have those available now with loyalty cards that are far easier to use than a QR code scanning app.
I just logged onto GooglePlay to look at this app. As of right now 25 5-star reviews and 2176 1-star reviews ( 8 in between). all 1-star reviews had similar language to the parent post (especially the "Nope!" part) and most were carbon copies of each other. On top of that, when I went back to the GooglePlay store, CurrentC was absent from my recent searches and it took until i typed the whole title back in for the app to reappear as a suggestion from the drop-sown menu.
I could care less about Target or Wal-Mart being charged by Visa, et.al. and I could care less about Google or Apple trying to make a pay-by-phone app, but this targeted and clearly choreographed backlash against CurrentC makes me wonder what's really going on here. I smell the smelly smell of something that smells smelly...
You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
False. It's standard contactless EMV, just like is embedded in my credit card.
When the product is released, they won't require you provide SSN, drivers license number or heath data.
CurrentC has already been released in a test market up in Minnesota. They're already collecting all of this information. Here are the instructions they have that include the SSN and DL stuff. The health data is collected by default and must be opted-out of after you set up the app, but will collect anything it can get in the meantime. Likewise for location tracking, which cannot be disabled, since they use it to confirm that you are in the store you're trying to check out at.
FUD stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. The only one of those that applies here is fear, because there's nothing uncertain or doubtful about what they are already doing, and while you're claiming they won't keep those features in once it's released nationwide, you've provided no basis for that assertion. I'm more inclined to think that they'll continue doing as they've been doing, otherwise they already would have announced plans to cease doing so, simply because of the PR mess this is.
Even if Apple Pay was 99% open, the remaining 1% is enough to make it a proprietary application overall. I can't implement an Apple Pay application to run on my non-Apple phone even if I wanted to.
And to respond to this as well in order to prevent gbcox's falsehood and my own misunderstanding from being taken as truth: Apple does not charge merchants to use Apple Pay.
How much does it cost to accept Apple Pay?
Apple does not charge users, merchants or developers to use Apple Pay for payments. Your credit and debit transactions will continue to be handled by the payment networks.
https://developer.apple.com/ap...
Can MCX, Walmart, CVS, Rite-Air, etc. be brought up on anti-trust charges. using their retail strength to gain control in another business. Is there any reason why these companies cannot have both systems running and make the customer choose.
The merchant has to get a proprietary terminal compatible with the bank's proprietary network.
Sure, I want to:
- give up the free 30-day "float" I enjoy by using credit cards
- subject my checking account to daily fluctuations rather than dealing with my financial business once a month
- give up the ability to access credit when making a purchase
- give up any recourse if the merchant screws me
- expose my bank account directly to potential fraudulent activity
- give up my privacy
- bank like a poor person
- trust these weasels who are the most exploitative merchants in the U.S.
I had given some thought to the form of protest that might be most effective. I imagined consumers walking up to CVS counters with a stack of stuff, trying to pay for it with Apple Pay, and then leaving it on the counter when told they couldn't use Apple Pay.
But I've got something better. It's an alternative system of payment. It's green. It's made of paper. And it has the lowest transaction cost. Most merchants - at least if they were smart - love this form of payment, although they do give up any ability to track customers through their payments.
I'd suggest that, as a protest, we set a day when everybody uses this alternative form of payment, called "paper money". Let's save up all our purchases for a week or a month, and then go out on a big splurge to stock-up - by taking these so-called "greenbacks" to the merchants who have NOT joined this anti-consumer coalition, as thanks for not going along with these greedy boobs.
Ok, ok, I know what you will be suggesting next: bitcoin.
gbcox sounds strangely someone trying to shill this product with his hyper-defensiveness and the blatant falsehoods he is stating about Apple Pay (such as that Apple charges to use it which they don't). He seems to be the one spreading FUD more than anyone else.
bennet is the like opposite-universe man. The sky is green, grass is blue, he read it on the internet so it must be true!
Who could possibly have anything positive to say about an electronic payment systems designed by marketers around QR codes and data mining?
Other than MCX shills, that is.
One data breach of a CurrentC retailer such that bad guys can debt someone's account, followed by the subsequent "sorry, the money's gone and you have no fraud protection" will be the end of it. After the national news skewering no consumer will trust such a system ever again, and retailers will have lost all hope of getting around credit cards. Given how often data is breached these days, I give it about 3 months after the system rolls out. 12 tops.
Neither can you implement CurrentC. Given enough money, I'm sure you could implement either one.
For some issuing banks, it's already trivial enough to generate a virtual credit card number using a web service (even if you have to screen-scrape), and that's all you need to expose the number via NFC. A friend of mine did a demo of such a wallet running using a little ARM microcontroller and talking over a SPI-interfaced Wi-Fi dongle to his Citi credit card account to generate virtual card numbers on-the-fly.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Yeah, I was noticing that. Strange how they come out of the woodwork at the oddest times. Maybe the merchants are coming to a realization that this thing is blowing up in their faces and are trying to get a handle on it. I doubt it though.
CurrentC (how cute) requires the user to snap an image of a QR code off a screen. NFC based systems are just tap-and-go. After the 3rd time you've had people in line grumbling at you while you try to get your phone's camera to focus, it's not going to seem like such a great idea. I've never had an NFC tap take more that a second or two to exchange info.
The user interaction in the transaction flow is also hideous.If you disagree, take a look at the example transaction flow that they display on their site.
Here's how it looks like it works:
Compare that to NFC
I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
i'd do it for a trivial discount. target's debit card is 5% + ~1.5% via $5 gift cards in the mail. all you idiots complaining about bank details, apparently forgot that you can have more than one bank account, its shockingly easy to setup an online checking account, and you can automate transfers to eliminate overhead
I would go through all of that if it meant putting VISA profits back in the hands of retailers. Even walmart. Despite the fact that I earn about 800 a quarter by playing credit card rewards, that money funds my IRA plus gives me $1000 tax credit.
you people are self important fools. your precious spending data. I lol'ed.
And you lose the benefit of credit card protection laws (in the US, at least). I'm not signing up.
You don't think ApplePay or Google Wallet is collecting data?
Apple Pay is nothing standard. Who cares if it uses NFC or a QR code. You completely missed my point.
Apple Pay is completely a lock-in. If you want to use ApplePay you are locked into using Apple and Apple will be getting a cut from the credit companies, etc... There is nothing "standard" about Apple Pay.
Oh I forgot, I apple can do no wrong.
I am stupider for simply reading the summary.
And iOS will support Flash natively.
So my ApplePay is a safe one-time token and this new idea is to give the targets and home depots of the world access to my checking account? Is this an April's Fool post? TBH, this plan would have been fine a decade ago. But not anymore. Especially since my rights are pretty decent with credit card and abysmal with ACH/checking accounts. It's a non-starter for me
CurrentC, with its direct access to your bank account is a non-starter for me. When one of these retails gets their data hacked; and it is a question of when, not if: guess who has their account drained and than has to wait, often at least a week, to get their money back? You when you use a credit card and your number gets stolen it is the Credit Card company's money that gets stolen. Not yours. You don't have to wait longer than the phone call that you made to report the theft to get the amount credited back to your account. And even in the rare instance that it takes longer, your bank accounts are still safe. .
Indeed, when Target saves the Visa fee, they do in fact pass those savings along to the customer.
Apple Pay doesn't stop at the contactless number exchange. The exchange of a credit card number is meaningless as a payment method if you are not connected to banks/credit cards networks. And this still requires proprietary protocols.
> (holding a baby in one arm) is pissed off at having to unlock her phone, find the app, scan a QR code and have the cashier scan a QR code ...
It does seem rather inconvenient, so I don't see my wife using it.
> Oh, and she's living off credit card debt so she doesn't actually have any money in her checking account to use CurrentC anyway.
Oh, there's money in the account. My wife (and our daughter) aren't doing any debt. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that living on credit card debt is how you end up broke, in which case the baby formula is paid for with the EBT card. :)
What you call "existing standards" include many proprietary solutions. They are no more standard than Windows is an operating system standard.
Right.
Without the app, CurrentC is dead.
With an app and the competition that comes with it, CurrentC is dead.
There is 0 chance of CurrentC "beating out" Apple Pay or any other form of NFC payment or indeed any other form of payment at all. ACH transfers offer no consumer-level fraud protection at all, and the entire purpose of the system is to make it easier for merchants to share information about customers with each other (and with advertising companies). In addition, the process is more cumbersome for customers (scan the cashier's QR code, then pull up your QR code on your phone and let them scan that). It's all downside for the consumer. CurrentC only helps the huge corporations at the top of the chain.
Also, CurrentC instead of CurrenC? What, are they allergic to good branding?
Hmmm, CurrentC works with my Debit Card or Checking account, Apple Pay works with my credit cards. CurrentC makes me liable for any fraud, Apple Pay leaves my credit card fraud protection in place. CurrentC will be harder to use and give all sorts of info to merchants, Apple Pay is easy and nearly anonymous. The only way I ever sign up for CurrentC is if the government withdraws cash from circulation and makes CurrentC mandatory. I am not handing over keys to my debit card / checking account to anyone. As it is, I use my debit card sparingly and watch my account closely. I am sure CurrentC will gain some traction because of WalMart but we'll see. QR codes really caught on, didn't they?
This author is on crack
And right away I thought "Wow, the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in these idiots".
In my defence, I did already read about CurrentC on macrumors.com (a totally unbiased source, of course) but I just learned about the Dunning-Kruger effect a few minutes ago. :p
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
This is standard practice in Germany and it works extremely well. Glad to see that the US is considering it now that Apple threatened to control the market.
echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck
Handing over my account information like that seems very much like the worst possible way to buy things. Not happening. Merchant's routinely want to direct debit my bank account. I don't like it and refuse because I did this a while back and they screwed up royally. Not once. Not twice. But three times the same company. They just kept deducting $330 from my account. That in turn screwed up the rest of my banking and cost hundreds of dollars in fees. After working to clear it up over a period of months they finally paid all the fees but the fiasco caused me other problems and wasted my time. Not happening if I can avoid it.
Credit cards put a layer of protection between the merchant transaction and my bank account. I like that protection. It makes it harder for scammers to steal from my account and it makes it harder for merchants to make 'innocent' mistakes.
...so merchants still have to pay swipe fees to the bastards at Visa, MasterCard, et. al.
Technically true but the party that really is paying is you - the consumer. The swipe fees are baked into the price charged by the retailers so they are simply passing on the cost of the swipe fees. Any retailer who claims that swipe fees are costing them a penny is either A) selling their goods below cost or B) being disingenuous about who is actually paying the credit card companies.
With a few very minor exceptions most merchants only should care about credit card swipe fees if they can somehow lower then to an amount cheaper than their competition pays. If two retailers are charged the same 4% markup on the credit card swipe then it doesn't matter at all because they gain no advantage and they pass on basically all of the cost to the customer. In technical terms the payment incidence is almost always on the customer.
I don't want ApplePay to win. That basically makes 1 Vendor control of the way we pay for things.
You mean except for cash, credit cards, debit cards, Google wallet, gift cards, money orders, checks, and even f***ing bitcoin? You mean except for the 3-4 companies that control most credit card activity already (Visa/MC, Amex, Discover, + a few others)?
Most people don't have a phone from Apple and that isn't likely to change anytime soon. I think you can relax...
At least with CurrentC it is a group of retailers all having to agree on a standard.
This "standard" might reasonably be an attempt at collusion given that it has lots of benefits to retailers and none to customers. Using an alternative "standard" whose sole purpose is to screw customers out of money, just because it isn't Apple is pretty dumb.
This whole article is a PR move because of this article on tech crunch coming out:
http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/25/currentc/
I think many have forgotten that retailers have already passed the cost of accepting credit cards on to YOU. They figure for this already when they set the prices for their goods. CurrentC will generate more profit for them because they won't have to pay the processing fees on credit card transactions, and they sure as hell aren't going to give them back to you.
This should be dead in the water but walmart customers have proven they do not care about anything more than saving a buck. If they incentivize its use, because they are saving so much from credit/debit transaction fees, I could see it taking off there. Just a fraction of their customers using it would give it mainstream status and other stores will start doing the same to compete.
Yes people educated about the flaws in the payment method see it as a terrible idea and not use it. People who will abandon their local stores, who offer their employees (neighbors) a livable wage, and drive 10 miles to a circus of terrible people, underpaid employees, and terrible customer service to save 5-10% have already sold their soul so this is just another benefit from the walmart to them.
I wouldn't care but I hate to see good ideas get shelved for bad ideas. Whoever can get the biggest userbase first is going to win ultimately and I can see walmart doing that easily.
Isn't that what Dwolla already does? Sorry didn't bother to look to see if anyone else said anything, too lazy.
It says a lot about a system that you are better off handing a piece of paper with your routing and account number to a minimum wage worker than use the "secure and convenient" electronic payment app.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
New Zealand (and Australia) have been using it for years, i was surprised when i learnt that America didn't have it.
It is used almost everywhere here for sales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTPOS
I LOVE having all my transactions on one credit card (CC) statement.
I LOVE getting $400 a year in reward points for funneling everything through the CC.
I LOVE incurring zero interest because it gets paid in full every month.
I LOVE the fact that I can contest/reverse bogus transactions through the CC provider.
I LOVE that the CC providers have spent decades getting really good at security.
I will not be supporting any retailer that wants to directly access my bank account.
Well?
to use this you'll have to install an app on your phone. Then once that is there and you want to pay for something you unlock your phone, open the app, scan a qr code, wait for it to process. Stupidly complex and more involved than just giving your card. With apple pay you pull out your phone, give it your fingerprint and you're done.
I just used Apple Pay this afternoon at Walgreens. I could choose which credit card to apply, it was almost instantaneous and there were no extra fees.
So CurrentC is coming out sometime in 2015, they hope?
I will pull out my real checkbook for any company that asks me to use CurrentC. Well, maybe I'll pull out my phone and dig around on it trying to find the app first, then give up and use a checkbook after the line starts forming.
After reading the description of CurrenC it seems like we're witnessing the launch of DIVX in the late 1990s.
If only apple hadn't stubbornly refused to look into NFC implementation, NFC would have already undergone its trial by fire.
This is why we can't have nice things.
RIP TRICERATOPS, YOU NEVER EXISTED
... If MCX was about making it easy for customers, then maybe. Honestly, as it is, only low-income people with bad credit will use CurrentC, as I'm sure no more affluent person would like MCX to have huge amounts of data on my purchasing while saving itself money, not me. I'm sure when MCX rolls out they will do tons of gimmicks to make people sign up, but when it's tied straight to my checking account like that, hell no
CurrentC is stupid, using a credit card, check or cash is easier than swapping codes from your phone to a terminal scanner etc.
Half of all credit card holders carry a balance from month to month, and a lot of them make the minimum monthly payment. Those people won't move to CurrenC as it would be a step backward in their eyes. That will slow the adoption of it and eventually lead to its demise.
"Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
Credit card companies should pull their access from any company backing CurrentC and not allowing NFC payments. See how walmart does when they can't accept any credit card any more... Don't think that will kill their sales instantly?
Credit card companies have the power to fight back and force the next gen technology, lets see if they have the balls to do it (as it will hurt them immensely if the battle is protracted)
Your leaving out a lot of info, like the fact that CurrentC Collects a lot of personal Info from users, and allows the merchants access to this info. Also with ACH there is protection for consumers, unlike the protection given to consumers by Credit Cards, so if you are hack you are out of luck, And lets talk about hacking, the second giant that is backing CurrentC and is part of the MCX is Target, so they will be collecting your info and charging your bank account directly, with there recent history do I need to go any farther?
There probably aren't enough savings to meaningful reduce prices enough for consumers to take notice.
Moreover, why would they give up margin needlessly without direct benefit.
More likely, merchants will pass along savings in the form of specific loyalty discounts. Look at Target Red Card as the model.
But it will be interesting to see how Walmart plays it considering their avoidance of loyalty programs in favor of an every day low cost approach.
The opinion of someone who has no insight on how payments, govt regulations and payment security actually work in the real world.
I prefer to be more open minded and look for solutions that improve and move things forward. Or at least learn about the subject rather than stick my head in the sand with a closed minded "That's just full of "Nope!"" comment without all the facts.
Every solution whether its Google, Apple, CurrentC or any other app will have weaknesses. You don't think they haven't thought of these and made at least some reasonable attempt to address them?
posting to undo accidental moderation.
http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-co...
After reading about the CurrentC breach I highly doubt it.
My concern with CurrentC is that it will be controlled by a consortium of large sellers. I don't see them offering a reasonable way for small businesses to participate. Instead they are going to use it as yet another tool to make the business environment more hostile for them. Banks have never been special friends of small business, but putting the payment system in the control of somebody who has reason to be hostile rather than somebody who is indifferent doesn't strike me as a good idea.
no way in hell this has any chance of beating "place your finger on the home button for about a second" - even paying with credit card is much more convenient. there won't be any success with a more cumbersome process.
This statement does not pass the smell test even from 10 years away. The so called "profit robbing transaction fees" are already built into the price of a product and therefore are not profit robbing but have already been paid for by the customer. Calling this profit robbing is just another way to say: "even though I have it paid for and every time someone pays cash I still want more. And I want more than I should be getting" I call this by its name: Greed.
In addition, neither of the companies involved has the competency to design payment systems that work. As others have said, this system (CurrentC) has been designed from the ground up to help the retailer and not to help make the customers experience better. Guess what: Its always the customer spending the money, so only something that makes the customers/users experience better will have a chance of surviving.
*IF* and that is still a big if CurrentC is going forward with this asinine project, I am really waiting for the first huge break in security and thousands of users bank account are cleaned out the same time. Can you imagine the repercussions for a business? For the business being "at fault"? This can very literally ruin the business if the group of people that got robbed is big enough. All you need is a lawyer in court showing that the business knew up front about the risks and still went ahead. I want to see the jury that lets them off the hook. I know I would not.
I used it at McDonald's last night. I had no idea what to expect, but was exactly as simple and uncontroversial as I had hoped. I asked if they took Apple Pay and the guy at the register said he didn't know if the terminal was working. I figured I might as well try so I just took my phone out of my pocket and placed it on top of the terminal. The screen immediately came on with the credit card selection screen that looked like Passbook with a message that said "Touch ID" so I touched it. Then a few seconds later it was all done. Quick and easily the smoothest transaction I've ever made.
I think I agree with a lot of the people making statements about how the only thing we are looking for as consumers is a way to simplify the purchasing process not complicate it. It took less work to pay this way than it did to pull my card out and swipe it. I hope the merchants wise up.
This story seems to assume that whatever corporations want is good for consumers and therefore will be successful. Since so many corporations including Walmart are backing CurrentC, then their combined clout will win out over Apple Pay and Google Wallet.
I disagree. The pay by phone system which will win out, if any of them do, will be the one that works best for consumers.
I am not about to install some app and then unlock my phone and use that software only based app to directly draw money out of my account without any hardware like nfc to try to keep it safer. No matter how many giant corporations tell me it is good for me.
Gruber has a collection of intelligent posts about Apple Pay and CurrentC.
One possible clue: read the user comments on the CurrentC iPhone app. Not pretty.
Apple Pay rival CurrentC confirmed it was targeted in a breach involving email addresses after the CEO of the consortium backing the payment system jumped to its defense.
Merchant Customer Exchange, the group of retailers that created CurrentC, confirmed on Wednesday "unauthorized third parties" grabbed the e-mail addresses of some members of the CurrentC pilot program. The exchange says most addresses were "dummy accounts" and that the app itself was not affected.
The fact that MXC feels the need to block NFC shows their insecurity. They know that their service is worse than NFC serves such as Apple Pay and Google Wallet. If they were confident enough in CurrentC's ability to surpass NFC payments, they would have left it alone. It's funny since they are now even blocking newer credit cards with chips in them.
There is absolutely no positive incentive for a customer to use this. Customer loyalty discounts are an excuse to slash down overpriced items for you. Also, why would it be a good idea to trust your bank account and social security information with a third party app. Credit Card fraud is better than having a direct line to your bank account compromised.
Apple Pay sends a token to the merchant and does not track any of your information. If the retailer is hacked, then they see your expired token. Sounds a lot better than having a direct line to your bank account exposed.
This only benefits the merchants because it allows them to further track your purchases and send more "customer loyalty discounts" in order to push for you to purchase more from them.
ApplePay and Google Wallet is more secure and the credit card companies still limit losses if it is compromised somehow. Ach attached to your bank being compromised just sucks to be you. Even the backers don't believe in it. They just want to hurt the credit card companies and get out of the 1-3% fees they pay to the credit card companies. I won't use it and will go out of my way to go to a place that takes Soplepay for the security. The companies that disabled NFC are compromising security of the card holders who already have chip and pin rolled out.