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The Next Java Update Could Make Yahoo Your Default Search Provider
itwbennett writes: At the company's shareholder meeting on Wednesday, Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer announced a partnership with Oracle that could result in Yahoo becoming your default search provider in your browser. Starting this month, when users are prompted to update to the next version of Java, they'll be asked to make Yahoo their default search engine on Chrome (and Internet Explorer, for what it's worth). And, according to a Wall Street Journal report, the button will be checked by default, so if you aren't looking out for it, you might unwittingly find yourself a Yahoo user.
Seems to me like this will lump them in with Ask.com and other bullshit sites that drive traffic through mostly shady means. Giving up Marissa?
Personally I'd rather have my idiots at home glued to the TV than out doing idiotic things
Gee, I'm awful glad I don't have Java on my personal machine any more.
Because the sleazy bastards running it are mostly interested in their ad revenue.
Here's a thought, guys ... how about you stop trying to change our browsers for your own benefit?
Java is dying under the stewardship of Oracle. The sooner the better.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
since that insures greater penetration. Th next step is for other software companies that cut deals with search engines to then push an update of their product with their provider as the default choice. I could see some releasing an update that does little more than update the search engine default.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
This is not significantly different than the current behavior of asking to install Chrome. It could be much worse, and want to install some adware toolbar. Is it really so hard, if you don't uncheck the box, to reset the search provider to the one you want?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Oracle, and other company's, opt out crapware installs is one reason that we install Unchecky on all customer's PC's that we service since almost everyone had Ask toolbars, but had no idea how it got installed. This will help the less aware customers avoid crud buildup in their systems, no thanks to a-hole companies like Oracle.
The real news here is that Java is now officially crapware.
My first program:
Hell Segmentation fault
I'd like to see innovation rather than degeneration.
It sucks that Oracle owns Java and is really in one market (not Java).
Yahoo is just trying to stay relevant. I do still use them for email, have been since around 1997.
BlameBillCosby.com
And if you don't uncheck the button on the goddamn Adobe update you get to be a goddamn McAfee user. And...
Next they will try to install the Ask toolbar. Sun did this bullshit back in the early 2000's. I am surprised it has taken this long for Oracle to take this step to try to ruin Java.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I uninstalled Java from all of my PCs months ago and I haven't even noticed any difference.
maybe try turning safe search back on and not searching with such ambiguous keyword combinations as "giant cock"?
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
is a practice that needs to be outright BANNED.
Has been for as long as that Ask.com piece of shit has been snuck in with a pre-selected check box.
Pretty much as soon as Oracle took over as far as I can tell.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Then, I change it back to whatever. It's obnoxious behavior, but hardly the end of civilization as we know it. Move along, there are bigger fish to fry.
They inherited that from Sun.
Mac does have Java if you need it.
Windows doesn't come with Java by default.
--
The world is divided in two categories:
those with a loaded gun and those who dig. You dig.
Woo hoo!
If Java tries to change by default search engine to Yahoo, one of my 27 toolbars will quickly change it back to Ask.com
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Default installations of OS X don't have Java anymore, which is why your link exists in the first place.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
maybe try turning safe search back on and not searching with such ambiguous keyword combinations as "giant cock"?
Have you used Google lately? A couple of years ago they began to also search for "similar" words, including abbreviations and acronyms. Which, depending on the subject, can lead to totally off-topic results. E.g. https://www.google.de/search?q=Wisconsin+Tourism+Federation - WTF indeed. Their search-by-data is also often useless (esp. when looking for older stuff), because most sites now include links to current articles even on ancient pages, which of course drown out the actual content.
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
No, java is something that people want/need which is supplied with bundled crapware that you have to remember to opt out of.
What TFA doesn't make clear is whether this new yahoo thing will be instead of the ask toolbar bundling or in addition to it.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
This isn't a Chrome issue. This is a Java issue.
Popisms.com - Connecting pop culture
Chrome won't run Java anymore. Soon IE won't either.
What exactly are they trying to accomplish here?
Better than Ask. That's All i'm sayin'...
Did you really have to use a .de domain to try and change the output so much? If you use the normal .com domain you get normal results. It is almost as though the German root level does not care much about a state in the US's tourism federation, or the EUs rules on how these search companies must censor results may be in play.
Even still all the WTF messages are relevant because the acronym was a cause for it to change the name of the federation.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
I got so fed up of Adobe loading their updates will crapware like McAfee that I stopped installing it altogether. Likewise I've avoided other products which have started bundling stuff in their installers. I'm sure Oracle are compensated for promoting Yahoo from their installer but the reputational damage will suffer could be immense.
Surely any self respecting Slashdotter knows about this:
https://java.com/en/download/faq/disable_offers.xml
Firefox cut a deal with Yahoo too, not because Yahoo is a better search engine for their users, either because Yahoo gave Firefox money or, well, why else would they do it? http://www.dispatch.com/conten...
What sucks is Yahoo sucks. I didn't even notice the browser change by the logo, but I did notice it when it gave bad search results. Changed back to Google, and results were accurate again.
Yahoo, you are the RealPlayer of the search world. File Chapter 5.
Why did you word it differently? Both operating systems have Java available but neither comes with it by default.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Maybe if you spelled it correctly, that would help, instead of an entirely different word
Desperate companies do desperate things. Sad really.
When was the last time you visited yahoo.com?
Used their email?
Used their games or chat?
How is this worthy of a /. post?
1. Ask.com has always been included in Java installations. 2. Yahoo isn't the first to sneak themselves as a replacement search engine. 3. Proper browsers will stop this unless user approves. 4. I can always switch back.
Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
Why is this flamebait at the moment?
Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
Which, depending on the subject, can lead to totally off-topic results
What is off-topic about those results?
The organisation in question's website - which is no longer called the Wisconsin Tourism Federation - comes second in the list, and only because you've used google.de. Use its new name, or use google.com, and it comes top.
Seems like it's working perfectly to me.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Oh .. yeah .. here we go!
Yep, me too, _this_ close to jerking Java from my system entirely.
Of course I want to use a search provider that has to hijack my browser to gain any significant marketshare. Why would I want to use the search engine that works best for me, when Oracle can choose a shittier one for me?
Nothing posted to
One could argue that Chrome shouldn't let other programmes change the search provider.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
It's 2015 and Windows still doesn't have a package manager? Oh wait, it does...
C:\> choco install jre8
Adobe tries to slip in MacAfee on you when you download their pdf reader.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
If you try to access google.com from Germany, it automatically redirects you to google.de.
If you want the "original" Google from abroad, you need to type google.com/ncr.
This link should work the same all over the world :
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd...
.
imo, anyone who blindly accepts the default installer options gets the malware they deserve.
If you're going to include an obscure technology like Java in the article. Could you please explain what it is?
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Oracle or Yahoo?
Google Chrome is bundled with other software, like CCleaner and Avast. I don't think Google is dying anytime soon.
Required reading for internet skeptics
That this CEO has no clue at all.
Nothing like ramming your company down people's throats to get them to like you.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I know that many would ridicule that such a program is necessary/useful on windows, and some others might rather avoid software with bundled crapware checked by default in the installers, but Unchecky is a great, lightweight (less than 1MB RAM) freeware that watches installers and automatically unchecks the boxes for things like offers in the Java installer, Bing toolbar/bing default in the Skype installer, and other unwanted bundled installs.
I run it as a convenience to not uncheck the boxes manually, but for relatives (e.g. grandma) it's fantastic because it saves me from removing five toolbars every month.
It's an example of something completely different to what you were talking about. Bizarre. I think the only point you made is "I don't know how to use Google".
In Windows, use the Java Control Panel and select the "Advanced" tab.
At the very bottom of the list, completely out-of-sight unless you scroll aaaaaaal the way down, in a category called "Beware of the Leopard"... no, sorry, I meant "Miscellaneous"... there's a checkbox labeled "Suppress sponsor offers when installing or updating Java".
Of course, by default it's not checked. Because money.
But check it and apply or "OK" the settings change. In the current implementation, this prevents bundling the Ask.com malware with Java upgrades -- it's a pre-opt-out, and you never have to think of it again. (At least, until Oracle decides the option should auto-magically unset itself when the user's not looking. Because money.)
Assuming this option continues to exist in future Oracle Java versions and is honored for the Yahoo tie-in, this would alleviate the pre-opt-in crapware issue. Big assumptions, of course, because Oracle.
(Or alternately, don't install Java if you don't actually need it. Or install OpenJava rather than Oracle's.)
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
On Yahoo Email, there are mandatory ad emails showing on top and one cannot delete those.
If you click on one under Firefox, a link opens but is blocked.
Looks the more BS they produce the more desperate they get and produce even more crap.
Digging their own grave it seems.
Maybe it has to do with the "upper crust people" beeing control freaks and out of touch with reality when things don't go like they should in their minds.
Why install Java on desktop systems anymore - unless you're forced to by some hideous commercial application you're stuck with?
(For that matter, why install Adobe Flash - unless you just have to watch every cat-video and fail-video there ever way.)
Does this mean that Oracle will be producing a Java plugin thats compatible with Chrome???
Aside from the issues of self-signed certificates and strict requirements on whitelisting this might actually make it possible for me to use Chrome to do my job (which involves connecting to remote KVM/iDRAC/ILO systems which require a Java client).
Otherwise, yeah no way Oracle, no one is going to install Java any more if they are using Chrome and don't really REALLY need Java (in which case they'll use a different browser).
In other words, if Oracle doesn't produce a non-NPAPI plugin, then client side Java will be in the wastebasket of history soon; its only a matter of time before its no longer supported in other browsers than Chrome.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Because OpenJDK says to do this
If you came here looking for Oracle JDK 8 product binaries for Solaris, Linux, Mac OS X, or Windows, which are based largely on the same code, you can download them from java.oracle.com.
Yes, because tricking people and manipulating their settings without their full acknowledgement is a sure fire way to gain brand loyalty. Idiots.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Does anyone know if there exists, or can we start, a project like this:
(1) They distribute binaries for Windows (32-bit and 64-bit). Other platforms would be awesome, too, but Linux already has great OpenJDK support in package managers, so that may not even be necessary. Windows is the platform where it really sucks.
(2) They have a custom-designed updater that schedules itself to run every so often (say, every 2 weeks); launches; checks for an update; and then *EXITS* if it doesn't find one. If it does find one, it gives the user a simple "Yes/No/Ask Later" prompt: if they pick Yes, it'll silently remove the old OpenJDK version and install the new one; if they pick "No" it'll skip that version and only remind them when the next update comes out; and it'll bug them next week if they click "Ask Later". Once it finishes whatever it has to do, it EXITS, rather than remaining in virtual memory forever like the Oracle Java updater.
(3) No adware. All components free and open source software. Installer should only depend on FOSS (no InstallShield, etc.).
(4) Gives user the option to enable/disable Java plugins for each browser detected to be installed on the system, at install-time, and can be configured after install via a config GUI. Default should be to NOT install the Java plugins, since they have had a history of severe vulnerabilities, but users are free to request their installation anyway.
(5) Installer should come in two forms: a "net installer" that has a tiny size (1 MB or less) and only downloads the requested components at runtime (allowing user to select whether they want the source code, the JDK or just the JRE, etc.), and an "offline installer" that contains the entire kitchen sink and does not need Internet connectivity (for environments behind a restrictive proxy, or no network connection).
(6) User should have the option to install OpenJDK without admin rights! If they don't have admin rights, stick it in AppData\Local and put the plugins in a similarly user-scoped folder (not possible with IE as far as I know, but should work with Chrome and Firefox). Auto-detect whether the user can be an admin, and only give the UAC prompt if the user's account can actually accept the prompt; otherwise, fall back to "non-admin" install.
Gee, sounds like if nothing like this exists, I have the requirements / design doc in my head...
If I disappear in my room for a week and don't emerge until this thing is on github, tell my family and my cat that I love them.
One could argue that if users can do it, other programs can too.
When people ask me to help them get java working I say no bloody way. My simple theory is that Java in the enterprise might be a good thing but java on the home machine is just asking for trouble. To me Java has a perfect storm of people not wanting it. First is that Java must be regularly updated to keep it safe. But I don't trust these updates to not screw me over in some fashion, either through malware such as this or simply popping up at an inconvenient time. For instance I am often recording video tutorials. There is nothing worse than some software update popup showing up in the middle. Especially if it is one of these focus grabbing popups. But the java update is a total bastard as it keeps turning itself back on after I keep turning it off.
So I basically danced around my office when I read that chrome and firefox were pretty much killing Java as an extension/addon.
But adding malware to their install just makes me laugh at how stupid these MBAs are. Yes in the next few quarters they will make lots of money. But how many quarters before people will have significantly reduced their downloads?
Also for Yahoo, I hate Ask.com for their trashy approach to getting users. Make a great product and then people might come. Fooling them into coming is just scummy. So now people will lump Yahoo in with the various sites that over the years have tried to use deception as their marketing tool.
For those of you out there all touchy about Java, my comments are not about the Java language, but the java product.
I think we're missing the real story here.
The article is suggesting that Java update _actually works_ and is capable of _updating Java_.
I can't remember the last time that was true.
Whoosh...
Thank goodness I don't use Java or have it installed. It's a dog and will never be installed on any PC I use.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Ok, we know it won't reach out to entire internet.
Those, who will switch back to google/bing, are anyway not yahoo's customers, so why would they care about annoying them?
On the other hand, some people might discover yahoo this way and, well, stick with it.
Because a PC user feels inferior so they used their mod points to make themselves feel big. It happens.
I downloaded Java yesterday and saw that it had the Yahoo option already in there and pre-checked for my convenience....
The will to live is very strong, stronger than rationalism. A panicked drowning person will try to climb on the shoulders of a would-be rescuer, not caring that this will kill both of them. RIP Java AND Yahoo!
Since they love offering ads with their installers, why not just save time and effort and have SF wrap the installers for them?
Microsoft got the snot beat out of them by the EU, they're still accruing fines for forcing opt (with both IE and Media Player, which is probably why (annoyingly!) they're dropping WMC in 10).
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\JavaSoft]
"SPONSORS"="DISABLE"
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\JavaSoft]
"SPONSORS"="DISABLE"
The screen with the checkboxes does not even appear.
Why does my computer keep searching using Yahoo! I must have a virus!
That's just Java... I'll be over shortly to reset it for you and uninstall Java. -_-
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
It's a given that sophisticated users like those who read Slashdot know that if they don't know something, all they have to do is go to a reliable source, like Wikipedia's entry on the subject.
I admit, the article was a bit confusing and I didn't see anything about compatibility with modern operating systems, but one thing that was clear is that installing Java is going to bloat your system big-time. I have a big drive, but I'm not sure if I can fit another 143 million users on my system.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Forced Opt-in by default is ILLEGAL in the EU.
Opt-in in the EU is by LAW/Directives to be OPTIONAL by default.
Another example of American companies not understanding nor giving a fuck about our rights in Europe.
I hope somebody takes them to the EU courts over these practices. Same with the annoying defaults of installing Chrome on installers.
Google is already in the courts, time to bring Yahoo in and many others (Valve with steam etc). Apple has been through it with iTunes.
Another example of Europeans not understanding that their laws don't apply in America.
And default installations of Windows have never had java.
Since this could hurt Google's direct line of business, Google should buy PostgreSql, and pump scaling money and promotion into it to eat into Oracle's sales.
Table-ized A.I.
So the real question is, why are we still talking about Java at all?
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Settings > Control Panel > Java > Advanced tab
Scroll down to the Miscellaneous section (bottom of the list)
Populate the checkbox labeled "Suppress sponsor offers when installing or updating Java"
Because it is.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I guarantee it will be in addition.
Why screw the user over once for money, when you can screw the user twice in the same sitting for more money?
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
so if you aren't looking out for it, you might unwittingly find yourself a Yahoo user.
Isn't that how all Yahoo users become Yahoo users?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
These sort of deals, especially for companies like Yahoo and Oracle, do reek of a end of sorts in the near to mid-term future (2-5 years for Yahoo, quite a bit more for Oracle due to entrenchment).
What sort of end? I don't know.
BlameBillCosby.com
Yahoo. Oracle is the dinosaur that's going to need a decade to die, like IBM.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Lord knows, no one bothers to read Slashdot...
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Blame minecraft, they require you to use that java shit.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
I get a bunch of results about wisconsin tourism federation changing their name because they've finally figured out WTF and WTF are the same.
>" they'll be asked to make Yahoo their default search engine on Chrome (and Internet Explorer, for what it's worth)"
I guess that means Firefox is the best choice... yet again!
Oh look, somebody else who apparently doesn't understand how computers work. How do you expect to stop a program[me] from changing a setting in another program[me] when they both run under the same privileges? Chrome has to store its default search provider configuration somewhere. The Java installer can edit that "somewhere" and change the stored configuration. Even if Chrome stores its search configuration in "the cloud", the installer could just use Chrome's cached credentials to change the configuration there.
The only way to change this is if apps don't have the ability to interact with each other's data (something like the isolation/sandboxing used for mobile apps). Anything else, any setting that you (the user) can change, any software running on your behalf can change (whether you want it to or not). I'd expect readers of this site to be able to grasp that, but it keeps coming up so maybe not...
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
It's amazing to me how much Slashdot readers hate discussing business management. Discussing business management is often painful, but I think we should accept the pain and get the job done. For example:
Marissa Meyer is not competent, in my opinion. A dishonest or sneaky CEO should be fired. This is the 2nd recent nasty manipulation Meyer has arranged. This is the first:
Has Firefox been Embraced and Extended with the intention of Extinguishing it by Microsoft? Mozilla Foundation now gets most of its money from Microsoft. Microsoft pays Yahoo. Yahoo pays Mozilla Foundation to make "Yahoo search" (actually Microsoft Bing search) the default search engine in Firefox. Most people don't have the technical knowledge to know how they've been manipulated, or how to restore the default search engine to Google search. Marissa Meyer's sneakiness is damaging Firefox's reputation.
The Thunderbird and SeaMonkey Composer GUIs have been damaged, apparently deliberately. Every time you do a file save, the newer versions of both ask for a new file name, and don't suggest the last file name chosen. The damage was reported several months ago, but has not been fixed. Is that another example of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish? People who feel forced away from Thunderbird may choose Microsoft software to replace it. Is that what Microsoft is trying to accomplish?
Change in subject: It's amazing how fast computer programming languages die. Pascal died in 2 years. Java is almost dead because the U.S. government issued a very negative warning.
toke == puff
Example: Puff on that joint a little harder, there is no reason to worry about the rest of us.
Example: Take a toke off this joint, it is some killer weed.
Yes I have smoked weed before - and I inhaled. I do not smoke it now, it just makes me tired, stupid, and hungry.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You mean the Chrome that uses this same exact method to get installs? I am not sure that I understand your logic. The company you are changing to is guilty of BEING the installed malware that was bundled with other application installers. This is not a well-reasoned statement if you ask me, but you didn't. Also, you can easily prevent this from happening to you by telling the program to not do it as its default action or by paying attention when you are installing things which is something you should be doing anyways.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Oh look, somebody else who apparently doesn't understand how computers work.
Oh look, someone else who loves to belittle people on the internet who aren't quite as knowledgeable as them. Not very original...
Fine, then: Chrome could at least make it less easy for other programmes to alter its configuration. Can't it monitor its files for externally-applied changes and revert/inform? What about encrypting the configuration on disk (at the cost of inconveniencing the user, or at the very least inconveniencing other programs who want to alter it)?
I'd expect readers of this site to be able to grasp that, but it keeps coming up so maybe not...
Forgive me, oh wise one, for not meeting your lofty expectations. I shall go back and resit the Slashdot entrance exam immediately.
There's really no need to be such a douche to someone for a fairly off-hand comment just because they don't know everything.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Do you just sit in front of a computer all day refreshing his /. profile to check when he posts new comments?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
A friend is currently playing around with the latest alpha^H^H^H^H^H insider preview of Windows 10 (wow is that thing unstable...), and when he installed Chrome and tried to set it to default, a pop up appeared saying that you can only change the default application by going into the control panel and changing it explicitly.
I have to admit that this is a good thing. With so many applications hijacking file and URL associations, it's inevitable that the option needs to be removed from them.
I regret not making the link read
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind...
Hint: When "&oldid=" is used, "title=" is ignored. In fact, it doesn't even have to be present.
These all refer to the same thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind...
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind...
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind...
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind...
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
the fuck did I just read??
Opera Mini is a portable, non-persistent browser (as in it doesn't cache anything - it's designed for embedded systems). Ergo, there's little room (or excuse) for sideways installing.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
I believe my comment ended up threaded under the wrong person. I, myself, am to blame. I stand by my pointlessness. After all, it is what I must do. Sorry about that - it was meant to be threaded elsewhere.
I am a big fan of Opera, I am using it now, and think the beta has come a long ways. The dev beta is also nice. Also, Opera is not guilty of either being installed maliciously nor of bundling malicious software into its installers. I have been an Opera user for a long time and really like their software. It would be nice to get them into the various distro repositories though but that is another point for another day. Then again, it is not like I am not off-topic already.
Finally, again, my sincere apologies for not threading my reply properly. I am not sure what I was thinking. I can not even blame beer or drugs. I can only blame either stupidity or lack of sleep. I think I will prefer the blame goes to the latter.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
ok, we've all been there. :)
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
How would it work?
Yahoo is just a default search setting (if it's like yahoo when you sometimes see it as default in firefox), Ask.com I believe that's malware that hijacks the search setting no matter if you try to change it back. In layperson's words we might as well call it a virus or in old fashioned computer speak, a trojan.
The Ask.com trojan would run and set "Ask" as the search provider, thus pushing Yahoo search out of the way. It would be a rather lousy deal for Yahoo.
I've repeatedly sent complaints to Adobe and Oracle over the years telling them that they are being underhanded in the "pre-checking" of the tick boxes - ie - requiring users to opt out. I actually have had to go around and instruct users to read their screens and not blindly click next. If anyone has solid strategies to ensure that only clean versions of Flash, Acrobat Reader, and Java make it to the desktop I'd love to see them. We're a not-for-profit of less than 200 users, so cost is an issue.