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Greece Rejects EU Terms
New submitter Thammuz writes: With almost all ballots counted, Greeks voted overwhelmingly "No" on Sunday in a bailout referendum, defying warnings from the EU that rejecting new austerity terms would set their country on a path out of the euro. Figures published by the interior ministry showed nearly 62% of those whose ballots had been counted voting "No", against 38% voting "Yes". "Today we celebrate the victory of democracy, but tomorrow all together we continue and complete a national effort for exiting this crisis," Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said in a televised address.
One size doesn't fit all, so it should come as no surprise that a currency made for industrial nations doesn't work so well for a tourist economy.
This is what we all need, less submissiveness.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Nationalism is the main threat for destroying the European Union. And that is not going to be good for the Greek people, not for people in other countries. Is a win-win vs lose-lose situation. Please, everyone, more brain and less nationalism.
People only in their dreams are US Republicans not actually the most servile, rule-bound people on Earth. You have to look very hard to find another country than Greece where the population does essentially what it likes and fuck the govt. Everything from taxes to road signs is a suggestion in Greece.
I've already got the popcorn popped and the news on.
The Greeks can't seem to come to terms with reality. It is for the best of the EU they are booted. Clearly they don't understand austerity is necessary, they want their free shit to run on forever. Sadly, their free ride has broken down.
I am Belgian. Greece owes me, my wife and children over 3000 euro. We fronted it out of our taxes and if they don't pay us back, we'll pay it back out of our taxes. Now, I am all for social solidarity... anybody who has spent time here in Belgium knows how easy it is for an IT worker to do independent contracts under the table. I declare all of my side activities and pay my taxes specifically because I believe in helping those who are down on their luck.
But solidarity is a two-way street. Greece was bailed out once, in 2010, in exchange for reforms. They were slow in reforming and in 2012 we had to bail them out again... and they still haven't reformed and here we are in 2015 and they want more money. The reforms that our governments are asking are not onerous. It basically comes down to "don't spend more than you can pay". The Greeks for some reason seem to think that the rest of the Eurozone should pay for armies of useless bureaucrats and pensioners whose median pensions are higher than ours make more than my parents. Now, Greece is small and strategically important, so maybe every Belgian should just give them 600 euro and call it a day.
But then Podemos in Spain will be asking for the same thing. Then the Five star movement in Italy will want their free money. I'm sorry, but fuck you guys. I work my fucking ass off to support my family and my countrymen. Greece threw my good will in my face. They can go become lackeys to the Russians for all I care, fight a civil war, I don't care. I hope my government refuses to give them another cent.
Socialism: If it can work so well in Greece, it can work just as well for us in the U.S. More pensions, more welfare, more government, more Democrats!
Citizen of Belgium here. That is totally cool with me. Please pay back the 660 euro per person that you owe us on your way out, though (in Euro, not Drachma)
It's refreshing to see people showing the middle finger to bankers. Americans actually saved them instead.
The best solution for Greece is now to default on foreign debts and switch back to the drachma to regain monetary sovereignty. The resulting currency devaluation will make greek goods cheaper and exports will boom. Furthermore, they have a primary budget surplus now, so they wouldn't even need access to capital markets after defaulting. Plus, if they also exit the EU, they would regain political and economic sovereignty and they would avoid the disgusting TTIP agreement between EU and the USA.
Finally, I sincerely hope that many traders at investment banks who bet on a Yes win at the referendum will have to commit suicide tonight. Come on guys, just do it, the world doesn't need you.
Now they seem to be wanting a 30% discount on their debt. Funny that!
You give up now the 30%, and tomorrow they will put together another act like this to have another 30% cut.
Never negotiate with Debt Terrorists!
There are rules to be in the Euro zone. Nobody forced anybody to accept those rules.
If Greeks now they finally came to reality that retiring at 50yo might lead to shortage of pension funds, and they want "discounts", they should be booted out of EU.
The Euro will no longer be seen as a one way street.....
Yes, Greece owes you. The Greeks lied and stabbed Europe in the back. Isn't it interesting and freighting that a society will destroy their own banking system to preserve pensions that pensioners did not earn? It is a sobering lesson for all western democracies that make such absurd promises to their citizens. The best thing for everyone is for the Greeks to walk away from their bonds, reissue the Drachma, and start anew. Greek travel will be a great deal. They can rebuild their economy on that basis. As for the pensioners. Enjoy your Drachmas. They won't be worth the paper they are printed on.
an ill wind that blows no good
Whatever your opinion of her otherwise, The Iron Lady saw this coming
007: "Who are you?"
Pussy: "My name is Pussy Galore."
007: "I must be dreaming..."
I do not think the voters realize the consequences of the vote they just made. They voted to not accept the terms of a bailout which was asking for slightly reduced government spending and slightly more taxation of businesses in Greece, who have been simply not paying taxes due for decades.
This will result in Greece leaving the Euro and presumably the EU as well or at least reduce it to whatever status UK has. They have their own currency.
Greece will have to print its own currency again and distribute it via physical and electronic means to replace Euro holdings within Greece. Here's the rub. Based on current exchange rates with similarly situated economies fiscally, the exchange rate is likely to approximate 60% of the EU to $G or whatever they call it, probably the Drachma.
So people will have 40% less standard of living in exchange for a patriotic rant yesterday.
Once they realize this by experience they will seek a referendum as they have done several times recently, changing parties each time to try to change things. They didn't change. Greece has 50% unemployment, total public assistance, low tax collections, early retirement, and other factors that make zero financial sense, which is why they have debt several times their GDP and a credit rating of CCC, the lowest.
Greece will be monitizing debt, devaluing the currency and generally lowering the standard of living at a rapid pace much like the Fed does in the US at a steady pace by forcing 2% inflation. 10% less buying power every 5 years!!
Greece will lose 40% currency value overnight and an additional 3-6% for year into the forceable future, and owe the existing debt to EU until paid, payable with deflated currency exchanging to a powerful EU currency, a double cost repayment. Welcome to your future. You chose it.
JJ
If you're looking for details and depth, Paul Krugman's Op-Ed is a good place to start. His blog posts also have much of the same content if you're having trouble with the NYT paywall.
Single currencies never work. Just look at the disaster that is the 50 disparate states sharing the so called "US Dollar".
I've actually never seen an entire country with down syndrom before, this is amazing, I'll need more popcorn.
Borrowing, who cares? Federal government spending is on auto-pilot to increase dramatically over the coming decades. When the feds run out of borrowing capacity, they will have no where else to turn but to raid people's investments. We are just as bad as the Greeks. We don't want to pay for our government, either.
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us...
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
So various countries (including GREECE) agreed to forgive much of the debt and to offer them generous lower interest rates for the rest.
So just offer Greece the same deal we offered post-NAZI Germany.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I don't quite understand what they are cheering about. They have put themselves into this situation and really there is no good outcome now for them. They take the EU conditions and further tighten expenses (drastically) or leave eurozone and stay between Turkey, Russia and the EU. Also in the second choice (leaving the EU) they go back to Drahma and face weeks lasting deep crisis and than 5-10 years of economic recession. Really no reason to cheer in my opinion.
And for the record - I love Greece as a tourist. I've been there many times but I also recall that they have a culture of not paying taxes which in my opinion is stupid and unpatriotic. Mind you - I am Polish and here also people HATE to pay taxes - they know that their taxes are being spent in wrong ways usually, the taxes fuel a caste of mindless clerks etc. but nevertheless Polish people DO PAY taxes like VAT and icome.
For what I know the Greeks as a tourist I know that they had a culture of mass avoiding the taxes - f.e. in late 90's I were on holiday in Greece and common practice was to use credit card for payment - best bargaining method. You just go to shop, pick some wares and tell to pay with credit card - imediately they dropped the price to the minimum and begged you to pay in cash (since using credit card would produce paper trail and taxing). And it was extremely common. Also in restaurants - go, eat and then wave credit card - the payment would drop from f.e. 2200 drahmas to 1000 (!!!) with a promise of further discount the next day. Really. Not to mention thousands of not finished housed used as finished houses (another reason for not paying taxes).
I have nothing against the Greeks - I like them - they are kind, warm and similar to slavian people. But they need to learn that paying taxes is what makes you country function. They need to learn that if they are into some international community they can't lie about their finances to get a credit. And so on.
Idiots. The whole corrupt and incompetent lot of greek politicians. They frauded their way into the Eurozone and have been dragging their heels ever since. This whole Syriza stunt was the very last straw. They were the worst. They could've gotten real reforms on the way - they had the mandate by the people. Instead they kept fucking and bullshitting around, squandering the very last bit of good will with every gouvernment in the Eurozone. Even Italy is pissed - which actually is quite amazing in itself, because they're are almost right up there with Greece when it comes to mal-administration.
They could've gotten away easy - now they'll be left to their own devices.
At least it's a clear "No" by the people. Better a clear NO that a whishy-washy YES. Tsipras can use this to get some real internal reforms on the way. ... Although I doubt he will.
Well, at least we can finally make a clear cut. No more money for free for all. No more bizarely overpaid early pensioneers and nepotism. The Eurozone should finally cut their losses, have Greece move back to the Drachma and prepare for humanitarian help, like food supplies and such - at least that money won't be wasted.
Lets finally put the ECB goodies and candy to work for nations who are actually pulling their weight and can use a little help aswell, like some baltic nations.
My 2 eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The majority in Greece barely understands what the vote is for, but the government got voted in on a platform to end the pain, and so they vote as the government urges them to: "Say no to those ebil bastids of the troika." And who can blame them? Where else did the pain come from?
The rest of Europe, we've been doing nothing but throwing money away. It was our politicians that really really wanted Greece to be part of the euro and for that reason wilfully chose to not look too deeply, or at all, at the numbers making Greece's case. They've been in default some 150 times the last 300 years, and the first ten in the euro were among the most stable ever, as far as the official numbers went anyway. They've always been cooking the books. It's what the Greeks do. It's what Greece does. Their government is the worst. With such a history, nobody in their right minds can possibly claim Greece is a financially sound country. It never was. Everybody who wanted to know could figure it out. Nobody wanted to so nobody did.
Greece should never have been in the euro in the first place. Since that happened, they shouldn't have gotten all that money for bail-outs, at least not from taxpayers. I actually blame our own politicians much more for that, as they kept insisting we'd all get it back with interest to boot. We could have known, we should have known, that was never going to happen since it was flat-out impossible. That impossibility hasn't changed. We went ahead anyway, with another layer of flat-out lies from our own politicians. Not merely the Greeks. Every eurocrat and every eurocountry politician. They all lied throught heir teeth to keep the dream alive against mounting proof of failure. The problem is that the whole project has nothing to do with economics --it's a net drain before counting "solidarity" and bailouts-- but is pure prestige politics.
So I don't particularly care whether they stay or whether they go. Our own policians including that gaggle of eurocrats will find a way to make it, whatever it may be, much more expensive than it needs to be. I'm sure of it. They've managed every single time before.
Greece owes something like 660 Euros per citizen of the EU for the bailouts to date.
To compensate them, maybe Greece should offer a one-week, all-expenses paid vacation for each of them to ... Greece?
Unlimitied retsina and ouzo allowance, of course.
Greece will be in ruins afterwards, but it already has a lot of ruins.
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
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Now perhaps the EU could either reconnect Greece to TARGET2 or acknowledge they have excluded them in a way that was not considered in EU treaties.
And on that later point, I cannot wait to see Greece suing the European Central Bank in the EU justice court, since the ECB acted in contradiction with the treaties.
Seriously, who couldn't see this coming?
EVERYONE knew Greece was poorly managed and it's debt level was unserviceable, but "people" kept loaning them more and more money expecting a miracle.
Those high bond rates looked pretty attractive to these moron investors. Unfortunately they forgot that high bond rates signify high risk. They took the risk. Don't cry for them. My condolences if these "people" happened to be politicians in your government or managers in your funds.
Don't forget giving half the country to Russians and building a wall down the middle.
It doesn't help that Greece was forced into an austerity plan in their last bailout. Essentially that kicked off a death spiral. Austerity has already been well discredited (see here, here, and here. Original paper here) yet it keeps being foisted off on citizens everywhere.
I'm not suggesting that Greece should spend money like a drunken sailor on leave, but following a faith based economic theory even after it has been disproven (even to the satisfaction of the writers of the original paper) is not the answer.
I am an German citizien, 26y old. For the past few years I have watched the Greek freeloaders try to extract more and more money from the Europeans. I have, through my taxes, guaranteed about 1100 EUR for Greece. As has my wife, my parents, her parents and our two infant children.
But you know what, keep it and leave the Euro and while you are at it, leave the EU as well.
Good riddance to the freeloading bastards, they can shag their sheep and eat their cheese.
Greeks have been on the dole, living beyond their means and spending money borrowed from others. And they do not want to pay it back. It's like a community organizer has been running the country.
Or to misquote Margaret Thatcher:
"The problem with socialism is that you run out of other people's money"
Or as she said:
"...and Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
You take on a risk when you lend money. If the creditor can't repay it, it's your bad for lending them the money in the first place, and you're a fool if you keep lending them money when they know they can't repay it. The EU's stupidity was that they bailed out the private banks and took on the debt on behalf of their citizens. http://www.businessinsider.my/...
James Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: [laughs]
James Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Minister, may I?
[sits]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
James Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Oh, really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
James Hacker: Well, why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
James Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans!
Sir Humphrey Appleby: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
Well after the greeks leave the EUR currency, I wonder why don't they massively start using bitcoins as opposed to printing devalued dracmas? or are bitcoins too expensive for greeks to afford them?
Reading the comments on here are entertaining to say the least. :)
Mr Briggs would still be there, but he's got that jewish thing he has to deal with donchano. Mr Phelps was there to the end. Until his end, that is. Of course, the secretary has disavowed any knowledge. As should you. Garry Owen!
Ok so the EU says to Greece that it has to do certain things (raise VAT, cut pensions, some other stuff) which will swing the Greek budget back towards surplus by x amount of Euros. Greece has then countered by saying that they can get the same x amount of Euros by increasing taxes on big companies and doing a few other things instead of doing the things the EU wants.
If Greece can get the money the EU says it needs to get in a way that provides less hurt to the Greek economy and to those worst off in Green society, why wont the EU let them do it instead of insisting on the economically destroying austerity?
The point here is that since Germany was allowed debt relief in favor of global economic stability and growth so should be Greece.
It's not Germany's fault that Greece didn't live within their means.
Is it Greece's fault that their economy wasn't massively financed by "aid" from other countries like Germany? And no, I recognise both the factors behind the reasoning and basis of their possible economies are massively different - but try telling that to someone "you can't all have nice cars like the tourrerists"
Britain's brightest minds anticipated and analysed the whole Greece v.s Germany problem some years back. The core problems are not economical or resource based - it's all a matter of national philosophy.
I'm curious to know what their end-game is. Let's say that the E.U. let's them out of the Euro. What international investor is going to want to risk their money in the country particularly if the government is capable of confiscating other people's money? They've already defaulted on their debt to the IMF. Are they hoping that all of their creditors will decide to forget what they're owed? Even if they all did that, does the country have enough domestic wealth to run itself without outside help?
Who in there right mind would lend a country 360 Billion Dollars? It's insanity.
EU should come in like the Repo Man and start taking everything that's not nailed down.
Bad time to be a Greek
Varoufakis has put his money on this.
I put mine in him.
For the sake of democracy it would be quite interesting doing a referendum in Germany asking "Do you want to bail-out Greece at their terms"?
It's true that Greece was spending more than it could afford to. It's true that they prettied up the numbers to get into the EU. It's also true that the EU leaders knew the numbers were not completely accurate. Europe was embroiled in this romantic idea of a unified Europe, similar to Manifest Destiny in the US. So Greece joins the EU. Everyone wanted it to happen.
But Greece was spending at an unsustainable pace. That's nobody's fault but Greece, right? Germany, France, and the rest of the EU must be in the right. They didn't overspend, they were trying to help! Right? Not exactly.
Because the EU controls the ability to print money, Greece couldn't devalue their currency (print money) to spur exports, bring in tourism, and pay off debts, or put together a stimulus package to spur growth. Another country with full control of their economy (ie not in the EU) would have used one or both of these strategies to spur growth. The situation would not have escalated this far.
Greece didn't have those options, so they had to take whatever the EU offered. The only offer on the table was loans in exchange for austerity, which (wealthy northern) Europe seems to love. Greece had to take it. This is the moment that the blame shifted to the EU, instead of Greece itself. Austerity didn't work. The Greek economy contracted by 25% of GDP and unemployment shot up to 25% in general and 50% among the youth.
Five years later, Greece was in worse shape than it started. The EU effectively prevented Greece from saving itself with terrible policies. Other unions, like the United States, doesn't practice austerity, and have had much better results. The US responded with stimulus, and attempted to grow its economy. Debt is measured in terms of GDP. Greece is at 180% debt/GDP. Top lower that ratio, you can either reduce debt (austerity), or increase GDP. Greece reduced its debt by embracing austerity, but GDP contracted so much it actually erased any gains from reduced debt. The US strategy is to increase GDP. Leave the debt, it's not going away, we just have to get strong enough to carry it.
It is in light of these complicated affairs that the EU is to blame. They need to consider alternative strategies. Greece (and the rest of the EU) gave austerity a shot for 5 years. It didn't work. People are right that this sets a precedent for Spain, Italy, and any future troubled economies. They too should revolt like the Greeks if it comes to that. But that shouldn't happen. The EU should recognize that austerity isn't the way and change policies now so that Italy and Spain don't need to have a similar confrontation.
In many ways, Europe owes Greece big time. They have opened everyone's eyes. Austerity doesn't work. Things need to change. The only question is: Is the EU smart enough to heed the warning?
All EU citizens should demand a referendum asking if the taxpayers should pay this 'debt' created by derivatives and fraudulent market trading, or tell the bankers to write it off, suck it up, and never again be allowed to put depositor funds at risk on this commodities shell game ever again. And I have no trouble using some form of asset forfeiture against them to recover some of the stolen funds.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
that's what the greek people expected to happen. just printing more money.
NOW essentially what the goverment can do is to tax all money that is being held in greek accounts, almost the same as just printing new money.
they can't just print more money since they're in the euro, but the people still expect (and syriza promised to !) to pay money as usual. they expect that the government pays out more money than it has because that's "democratic".
also a confusing ballot is democratic according to syriza.. with an unlawlully short campaign time to boot. not that it matters, the cash is going to run out anyways. it's like the prime minister and finance minister either deliberately try to run the country into a crisis or they don't have even cursory knowledge of how things work.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Greece is getting thrown under the bus, "austerity". Aka lower living standards for the working class. It's already " live within your means " with you people. The Greeks weren't living the high life. A bunch of Rick asshats were passing bad debt around during the housing boom and Greece got caught holding the bag. If a big country like Germany had done it no harm no foul. It was too much for Greece though. And the powers that be are gonna use this to steal a bunch of old v folks pensions.
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to implement a Basic Income for all its citizens Then hey wouldn't have these types of problems.
Lending comes with risk. That's why you can demand interest. Because sometimes you will lose the whole basket. I'm with the Grecians on this - The banks can go screw themselves. If they're national banks of a country you reside in, I suggest you elect new and different leaders.
Thank you.
AC
Yes. National philosophy. Which I guess explains why Iceland, Ireland, and now Finland are having the same issues with recession and increased unemployment.
Suppose a trader makes a bad investment, and loses money. Should he be bailed out?
Suppose this isn't a trader, but a mobster going after a gambler who welches on his debt. The mobster cripples the gambler as payback, knowing full well that it becomes impossible for the gambler to work again, erasing any potential of him paying off even a portion of debt.
Greece's debtors are traders who think they are mobsters. Instead of reducing Greece's debt obligations to a manageable level so that they may recover some money back, they want to break Greece's thumbs. IMF's own report says it's impossible for Greece to recover without debt restructuring.
Germany and its Eurozone allies in this mess are being foolishly vindictive, and this is driven by greedy bankers who want to get theirs and pass the buck. War is a country going around breaking the thumbs of other countries. Instead of arguing over that artificial notion of fairness, people need to start weighing this debt against the potential of real human suffering.
A little bit of history for non-eu-ians
There was an expansion drift of the EU. They accepted countries who didn't meet the parameters, They looked the other way. And now... Ooops..
There was an EU "constitution", but the people who were allowed to vote said NO.
The EU then said it is a not constitution but forced it down our throat anyway.
etc... etc...
I hate the EU and I thank the Greece for this vote.
Wipe out half the debt or something similar (like lowering the interest rate to be negative until half of the debt is reimbursed), but keep the other half. Personally i would be far more interested into inquiries in who loaned the money under what circumstance, who lied and and who told the truth, with associated disbarment, prison sentence and banning from having a bank or accounting job in EU zone, maybe a bit of all 3, for all actors involved in all countries before 2010 which led to the over borrowing and Greece acceptance in the EU with lower criteria. Those people should be taken to task for the immense problem they have generated.
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That's Moral Hazard: Encouraging bankers to make high-risk loans because they know the public will bail them out if it goes bad, and their customers get the cream if it goes good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The alternative is to let the banks go bust so in future customers think twice before loaning their money to reckless bankers, and jail the bankers as criminals: http://www.independent.co.uk/n... because bailed out bankers go on to do the same thing. And why wouldn't they? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
Greece finally can get it's act together if it is not given a crutch by the Bank-Stars in the EU. Also the EU can learn that if you loan so much money to people who can not possibly afford to pay it back, you might not in the end get paid. Perhaps some of these Golden dawn folks can turn the country around. I just hope they don't go limping to Putin and sucking his dick. Greece should be independent and strong. It should not be held a slave to the Jewish Bank Stars who control the worlds currency. Greece was the center of western civilization once and can be again. They need to stay strong and independent. Avoid making deals for cheap money with the global elites (including China and Russia, especially the USA). There are lots of smart people on the Island. They CAN make some shit, as long as the government isn't there to say. Ohh it's OK baby. We will give you some of this cheap money lent to us by our enemies at 20% interest. Japan did it; Britain did it. Just because you are small doesn't mean you can't be a super power. You just have to have proud and independent. Greece does not owe the world anything (and vice-versa)
I want referendum in my household too - no more mortgage payments, no auto loan payments, no credit card payments. It is too hard to pay for everything, austerity is terrible. Just keep the house and all the goods!
Are there any examples of a Macedonian language? All coins discovered from Macedonian kings (Philip, Alexander the Great, and later) have Greek writing on them. ALL! And they are many of them! Has any Macedonian writing been discovered, ever? No, never! I do realize that this does not mean no such language ever existed. If it did, why did Alexander the Great spread the Greek language and not the Macedonian one?
A big one is just that the US controls both its currency and its monetary policy (meaning taxing and spending). That manes that it can take the steps it feels necessary to deal with loan repayments, such as increased inflation and/or a weaker currency. It doesn't have to convince other countries of it, it runs the currency.
An even bigger one at this point is that the dollar is the world's reserve currency. Things are settled in dollars on the international stage, meaning that the US can't have a current account crisis. It makes the dollars, things are paid for in dollars, so it can make more dollars to pay for things. It is unique in that situation. While it could change, that is how it stands.
In fact, that is part of the reason the US is able to borrow so much, and in some ways needs to. People and nations want to put their money in what they see as a safe reserve, and the dollar is one they seek. To make that possible, the US has to issue debt instruments. They have to be able to buy US dollars.
Yet another difference is that the US has high tax compliance. Most people in the US pay their taxes. There are those that cheat or outright evade, but they are the minority. That, combined with a generally quite low tax burden (compared to most first world nations the US has very low taxes), means that raising taxes in the US is a very valid strategy. People won't be happy, but they'll pay. Greece has real issues with tax avoidance which makes tax increases problematic.
Still another difference is in what the economy produces. Despite what you may have heard on whiny online sites, the US makes a lot of stuff. It is the #2 producer of durable goods after China, and only slightly. It builds lots of things that others in the world want. A good example would be microprocessors. Both Intel and AMD are US companies, and Intel fabs most of their newest CPUs in the US. The chips that run most computers in the world come from the US. Makes the economic situation rather different than a place that relies heavily on tourism.
Finally there's the issue of who owns the debt. Most of the US's debt, about 65%, is owned by the US itself. Of that a large part is intragovernmental holdings, and then debt held by the federal reserve. Of the nations that do hold US foreign debt the two largest, Japan and China, do so for strategic reasons to keep their currency cheap compared to the dollar and thus have a strategic interest in keeping that debt. Greece on the other hand, owes most of its debt to other countries.
It is far to simplistic to look and say "Oh this is all the same!" Public debt is actually a pretty complex issue.
Yet you want to saddle Greece with similar crushing debt when they have a fascist party, Golden Dawn. So your plan is to.....repeat that mistake a second time?
And external loan sharks - funny how that part gets left out. Oh, and being forbidden from cutting military spending, rather than pensions and health care.
And what about their post-WWII debt, which was largely forgiven? By countries like Greece? So, to recap: Germany destroys the continent and all is forgiven. Greece got taken in for loan sharks, so they deserve to be pushed into national poverty worse than the Great Depression, for decades.
This is classic conservativism: more interested in being punitive than being just or effective.
How does Greece plan to pay for social programs they have become so dependent upon? The era of eternal borrowing is over, and delaying the unavoidable misery associated with that reality does no good for anyone except those who stand to stuff their pockets in the meantime.
You'll need to do some googling, I can't teach a full econ class here.
Not least because you're hopelessly unqualified.
But the TL;DR version is that every country that tried austerity has recovered more slowly than every country that didn't.
Please list these countries that had a choice about austerity, and which countries you're comparing them to.
That and the entire justification for austerity was in that one spreadsheet that turned out to have a glaring error.
You seem to have missed the slightly more obvious justification of avoiding a debt spiral.
The steps that Greece will take from now on, for those who don't understand enough economics:
1) Greece will leave the Euro
2) Their currency will be devaluated to stop avoiding losses (and the price of Euro will match savings and demand)
3) They will most likely set trade restrictions
4) Eventually, their balance will go back to being positive
5) Once balace is positive, Greece will renegotiate with the majority of entities it owes money to, and will end up paying back less (their debt titles allow this, unlike Argentina)
6) They will never return to the Euro, unless their GDPPC makes it worth it, but this (how much a country likes to work and produce (or has natural resources) vs how much it likes to import) is a cultural/natural thing and can't be forced on people.
that's it.
Greece forgot to put the new cover sheets on their TPS reports... mmmkay? Just admit that's what this is really all about
Irrelevant and inaccurate. The first country "conquered" in the Second World War was Germany. Many have made a good case that the Versailles treaty was really to blame. So, if you go back to root causes WWII was caused by imposing impossible dept repayments. Nothing has changed. Perhaps Europe is actually safer in the long run.
Austerity itself is the problem. The problem Europe has now is not hyperinflation its DEFLATION. The deflation in greece is the worst in europe. You cant pay off debts and grow your economy with 25% unemployment and negative gdp growth, In greeces case they have to make their exports cheaper through currency devaluation but they cant do that with the euro.
When Greece joined, they claimed to have a 3% or below deficit. It turned out to be more than 15%. Goldman Sachs helped them to cook the books. So there's multiple parties to blame. Greece for weaseling themselves into the eurozone, Brussels for turning a blind eye, and Goldman Sachs for committing large scale fraud. In the end, none of the responsible people will be punished. In the end, taxpayers in Europe, both the Greek and the rest of the Europeans are holding the bag. It is by design.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
The current Euro treaties do not allow a member to leave the Euro zone. Nor do they foresee a mechanism to kick out any member.
Of course, the member states could come together and sign a new treaty. Needless to say, it would take a while. And, oh, it would take previous agreement.
Irish economy grew 4.8% in 2014 making them the fastest growing economy in Europe. Just saying. Probably helps that one of their major trading partners (the UK) isnt in the euro and is doing ok-ish.
This only further proves that the great ideal of a United Europe can only work as long as only the Herrenvolk of Germanic ancestry hold the reins of power. The EU is only, and should be only, by Aryans for Aryans. Democracy is a shameful institution: people need to be led like the sheep they are, for their own good.
If the Germans think that Greece's actions are unreasonable, perhaps they should look at their own history and see how they reacted to demands for huge repayments.
Its funny. A group of people saw this starting to happen in the U.S. too. They were terrified of the looming disaster of spending far more money than you take in, and merely wanted to limit spending to what we could actually afford. t
They even started a grass roots political movement to try to elect fiscally responsible people. Their reward? They have been demonized and character assassinated to the nth degree. They are accused of being NAZI's, racist, anti-this, and anti-that... They have even had the U.S. government personally attack their finances and businesses. All because they want a balanced budget and for people who make bad ecconomic decisions not to escape all the pain.
I am of course talking about the Tea Party, who history will show is right. Just like the collective wisdom of this forum and thread understands when it is talking about Greece, but seems to fail to grasp when talking about their own country.
It is easy to make fun of the Greeks, harder to judge your own actions.
"Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
Funny how Greece should be one of the first countries to show the failure of democracy.
So many people are dependent on the government for paying money out to them, or failing to tax them. So all those dependent on state money voted for keeping their income as it is, rather than going for a sensible solution.
Like I heard the young people in Greece say, nobody of the parent generation ever asked what they could do for Greece, they just bought more Porsche Cayenne cars for the money they received from the state, or cheated from the state.
Now they will be booted out of the Euro, to show an example (Italy and Spain had the downsize public sector, why not Greece ?). We will get Drachmer at an exchange rate of 1:1, and all bonds will be converted. Then devaluating the currency to 25% of original value to minimize debt. And at the same time, everybody in Greece will get the same number of money, but at a quarter puchasing power. So even worse than the EU / IMF suggestions. People get what they ask for.
Denmark was close to bankruptcy around 1980. Then we got a right wing government, who made lots of hard economic reforms (one called the potato diet, making loans more expensive, and resulted in cutting the trade deficit from 36 to 20 billions within one year), they stopped the insane 10% yearly salary increase, and cut it down to like 2-4% (which resulted in inflation getting lower than salary increase, thus increasing purchase power). Now all parties in parliament agrees (government and opposition), that the the yearly finance law must be in balance, or very close.
I agree with you 100%. There is one missing piece in that story though. Back in 2009 the majority of the debt was owed to irresponsible private lenders. What exactly should we think about our leaders allowing the time and the mechanism to have this debt transferred to the EU public through bail out funds? Were they really bailing out Greece? Maybe in time some historian will be brave enough to follow the money...
As a Greek, I am stunned, and disappointed, by the level of criticism (and hate!) in slashdot. What I clearly see is that fellow Europeans are being told huge LIES about the Greek crisis, and what this referendum means. I'll try to put things in perspective:
1. The money fellow European governments are giving us, are not free; They are loans, that we happily repay, even if the interest rate is a highway robbery compared to what they are paying.
2. Nobody said about "writing off the debt". What we ask is for the due date to go further in the future and the interest rate to be lower.
3. If the rest of the European governments cared at all to be repaid, then they wouldn't insist on "reforms" which have been 100% proven wrong, such as tax increases and pension/wage cuts. These are the stuff we object to. Many of the other important reforms (early pensions, unemployment benefits) are already imposed for quite some time now. I could write a book about how increasing taxes can't increase a country's GDP but guess what, there are even now so many books that prove this.
4. Especially to my Belgian friends: The 2 bailouts of Greece helped repay loans given by private sector banks. In effect, we traded private sector loans with state loans. In other words, you people lended us money so that your banks didn't lose their money. Now we owe you money (instead of your private banks) AND you think that this was a mistake. We do too, so we agree on this.
5. Greece doesn't need more money to "keep spending above its limit". We've had a more or less balanced budget for the last couple of years, apart from the loan interest payments. So we need you to lend us money so we can repay the loans you already gave us. Is this more reasonable than what we're asking? (To postpone the pay off date and decrease interest rate)
6. You are angry because we tricked our selves into the eurozone. You are right. We are angry too that you tricked us into the eurozone. There was nothing good for us there, no reason at all to be part of it, yet our politicians agreed with your politicians that we need to be part of it, no matter what. And they, all together, agreed to put Greece into the Eurozone, what a huge mistake that was and oh how many lies were told so we believed them (you did too). They made a ton of money out of it. Then they made a ton of money from the debt crisis itself. Meanwhile, half the Europe suffers from austerity (with Greece being the most hardly hit country, but Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus got a great feeling of what austerity means) and the other half is being taught that "lazy Greeks are asking to be given for more money).
Friends, stop hating each other, we're passed beyond this. The people is suffering, not only in Greece, but in other nations too. A Polish fried says "you should see my country", and some other said "we're poorer than you". And why is this? Who is benefiting? Does this mean that Poland et.al. have to double their taxes and cut their wages in half and pensions by 60%, destroy their healthcare and educational system, sell out everything that can be sold, just to become "richer"? Would anyone really suggest that? Then why is it a must-have for Greece? How on earth will this help repay the loans? Up until now, it has created a 27% unemployment and 99% misery.
So, please people, don't believe what your media say. You're not giving away money, we're not asking for free money. Greece has paid the price, and was punished hard, for decades of poor planning, bad habits and outrageous corruption. But it's time for other countries to stop hiding behind the propaganda and be realistic, just like we are now.
Yes. National philosophy. Which I guess explains why Iceland, Ireland, and now Finland are having the same issues with recession and increased unemployment.
Interesting take on the video. Or did you ignore it so you could wank on about economics?
Just out of curiosity... how do you find life without a sense of humour?
Yeah, voting 'no' to the EU plan might seem great to the people who voted, but the problem is, most people who did vote 'no' don't even know what the consequences are of their vote, they have no clue that voting 'no' is even more dissastrous for them then having said 'yes'... If they thought their pensions etc were in danger with the EU plan, well, with exiting the 'euro' there will be no pension at all.. Greece still have to pay the loan they got in the end...
Isn't the biggest thug the American bank that during negotiations for entry to the EU in the first place converted the Greek debt to the EURO with an artificially low exchange rate and then balanced that out with a swap so that the Greek debt could look small enough to allow acceptance to the EU? Surely that's just fraud from the US bank?
It's the person who believes the lie, or knows that's it's a lie and uses it for profit that creates the problem.
Greece lied to get into the Euro because it thought it was going to be richer with a stronger currency. The EU turned a blind eye to it because they wanted the Eurozone to be as large as possible. Both are now going to suffer because of it. The Eurozone countries are not going to get their money back and Greece is almost certain to exit the Euro and very possibly the EU since there is currently no legal means to drop the Euro while an EU member. At this point the best thing to do is make this happen as quickly and painlessly as possible.
I am Portuguese. The worst event that occurred to my Country in the latest 800 years was to join the EEC (now European Union). Our Industry, Tourism and foreign relations were developing at a very high rate in the 1980's. Then a drug was injected in our racial and social "Elites": free money. As any drug dealer knows, there are free samples and then very dire bills emerge.
Basically, with money for the "Elites", all Euro-Junk produced in the big countries was bought.
It was the centuries-old "Mirror-for-Gold" trick applied effectively.
Real people of course suffer immensely: absolutely no new jobs (quite the opposite), opportunities or benefits reached the population and we see the so-called "Elites" wealthier than ever. Former politicians are now billionaires. Our former Prime-Minister is extremely wealthy (in Jail).
Our productive system is in ruins, fishing and agriculture obey the dictatorship of the European Union. Who's to blame? Ourselves. We should say 'no' and quickly develop weapons to ensure that our 'no' is really a 'no'.
What weapons? Here's one: allow everyone from North-Africa to enter the southern border, give them some food and a First-Class plane ticket to France or Germany.
Why is it borrowing 'money' from JEW BANKERS, and then making the entire population of Greece suffer to pay back 'money' that the JEW created out of thin air in the first place?
Everything you read in the JEW media is smoke and mirrors, designed to put you off asking this simple question.
Where is the tech angle here? Are we that desperate to fill the front page that any and all random news gets a slot?
The amount of bullshit being moved around in this thread is outta this world!
This is about one thing, and one thing only:
Money is debt. Period.
If you don't understand that, go learn.
Essentially, every unit of currency in existence being used by nations today was borrowed from a private agency. At interest.
The U.S. doesn't "print its own money". They borrow it. They gotta pay it back.
They can't.
Why not?
Because the second it's minted, (or keyed into a digital record), it starts earning interest. It's worth more than it's worth.
What does that mean?
It means this...
Suck every single unit of currency out of circulation, every Dollar, Euro, Yen, Peso and whatever the Chinese deal in, stack it all a mile high in some disused stretch of Nevada, bundle it all up with a giant bow, and give it to the banks with a smile, "Here, have it all back!" -And you'd STILL owe the bastards a ridiculous (and ever-increasing) sum.
But.., but.., there's no cash left to pay them with..!
Ah. Now you're getting it.
It's that geometrically growing interest problem. There's no upper limit on it. Remember the story about the Emperor and the chess board with one piece of rice placed on the first square, to be doubled in the next..?
Everybody knows this. Nobody denies it. It's the blank stare and awkward silence which is the problem. People prefer the endlessly complicated meandering voodoo bullshit talk about the intricacies and complexities of blah, blah, blah, rather than look at the system and recognize it for the chillingly simple thing that it is. It is designed to collapse. Collapse is profitable. Very profitable. The banks get to foreclose on real property, trading valueless paper and digits for actual wealth. That's the con. That's the end game.
But people get caught up in emotional manipulations, "They borrowed, spent wildly and expect to get away with not paying it back? Bastards! Harm them!!! We are authoritarian idiots who put subjective moralistic bullshit ahead of logic!"
Stick with this system, and the shadowy banking elites will foreclose on every damned nut, bolt and scrap of real property on the planet. And they'll make you their slave worker, because according to their make-believe math, you still owe them. Nobody is exempt. I don't care who you voted for, you're going down.
The only way out is to say, "Fuck you. You're full of shit! I'm not going to let you talk me into believing that I owe you. You loaned me air, not wealth. You loaned me funny money. I'm not paying you back with my blood, (or in this case, Grecian blood)." The solution is to walk away from the banks, ignore their invoices and threatening letters, and start a real currency which isn't interest bearing.
And to all those sweet students of economics; you have been misled; there are systems where interest is not required to reward investment. You just haven't been told about them, or you are not imaginative enough to work out how they might work. We've been lied to, because lies are profitable.
I applaud Greece for their decision and I wish them the best.
Problem is, the banksters and their vassal states (like the U.S.) will sooner send in bombs and psychopathic death squads than let one of their intended victims walk. Libya fell largely because of their refusal to play along with the bankers.)
And given the bullshit being shoveled around Slashdot, most people will look on with holier-than-thou approval. Until the day it happens to them, (like, next year perhaps?).
A few thoughts:
1. It's fascinating to see what's the political/economy equivalent of "IT/technical" slashdot comment rants! :D
Most (certainly not all) people writing here demonstrate that they know nothing about what they're writing about.
I didn't have the perception that opinions expressed here, when not jokes, could be so disinformed and... plain primary.
I wonder if this applies to slashdot technical discussions as well? I suppose not - sampling bias is certainly at play here, but still...
2. Greece gave a tremendous lesson about Democracy to the rest of Europe last night.
I wish the other European periphery governments would display similar courage rather than secure their possible future job positions in some Troika institution.
Germany and other "central" EU countries profited significantly from a devalued currency and a market for their exports.
(It's not by chance that the conditions of the Greek bailout explicitly forbid the cancellation of the 5 submarine purchase from Germany, among other gems)
Lenders (French and German banks) were recklessly irresponsible to load up on Greek debt until their combined assets amounted to several times their respective home countries GDPs.
Lenders effectively share responsibility with borrowers - it takes two to tango: that's why riskier loans pay a higher interest than safer loans.
We Europeans have a too short memory - Germany benefited immensely from the 1953 London Debt agreement: It was allowed 40-something years to payback debts incurred as a consequence of WW2 along with others dating back to WW1 (!)
They were granted this benefit despite German electors voted into power a regime that slaughtered millions of people.
It was an excellent decision. Putting the "schulde" behind us, allowed for an unheard era of peace and prosperity in Europe.
Now, Greeks, certainly didn't slaughter millions, and knowingly or not, might have voted for some crooked politicians - but does that warrant the suffering that was imposed on the Greek population?
(actually, a significant part of the Greek debt was contracted during the military dictatorship)
Current Greek impoverishment levels surpass already US Great Depression values. Germans (at least here in Bavaria), certainly were not subjected to that kind of suffering in the post-war period.
The decent thing to do, in my humble opinion, would be to grant the Greeks (and the other supposedly "bailed" EU countries) similar conditions that Germany benefited in 1953.
Then we could finally put this crisis behind us and move way from this path that Europe is going down to, of nationalist and racist stereotypes and possibly worse things to come.
Remember what the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize was for:
More than a common Market, the EU was designed to be above all a project of common Solidarity, to achieve common Prosperity.
Shouldn't it continue that way?
So Greece population dose not want to lose their government handouts and willing to flirt with disaster over? They are gambling that the world will not let them fall into disaster since the world bailed them out once.
At this point, if this ends with Greese happy with the deal they get, we going to see this happen again in the future. Greece is not going to change unless it is forced. Sadly, same thing can be said about the America, we are not too far behind this fate, only difference is we can print money that delays it.
Greece's idea of money seems incompatible with the Euro. They need to do their own thing with no more loans.
Delaying this by pretending otherwise is making things worse.
The folks who loaned the money to try to bend Greece to their way of thinking are also at fault.
The loans need to be forgiven in a way that does not hurt the little lenders.
This will let Greece go it alone as they wish, but without the support and hangover from the Eurozone.
Hopefully, it will also teach some useful lessons as to how the Eurozone will and will not work.
I really do not understand why there is celebration in Greece.
The next step there is going to the ATM and getting nothing.
Perhaps it is better to laugh than cry?
I really expected a bunch of bankers and spys to steal the vote for a Yes vote. Either way, those same banksters will still find a way to force it on the Greek people.
After 5 years of of austerity and negotiations, Greece has only been getting worse. I'd say this was bound to happen one way or another. Varoufakis has been clear that "the left is not ready" to leave the eurozone, but given the conditions of the alternative, I'm not so sure. The country's banks behaved the way most others did in pre-recession. The borrowing euphoria was due to very low interest rates at the time and growing economy - the big tab seemed to be a problem for the future that would be dealt with given growing gdp. Once the global economy sank the scope of the error became apparent. French and German banks are certainly equally at fault in lending those vast sums.
The amount of misinformation, finger pointing etc is just boring after a while.
The EU (and what's coming to North America soon) is just plain theft of revenue and rights.
The common Citizen is dwarfed by Corporations and Banks (Real People) that put the country in debt then turns
to its "Customers" as scapegoats. Greed is why we're ALL in debt (to who again?), but in general the public is just trying to live, while
the propaganda blames them for all the ills that make the Banks and Corporations wealthier than Midas.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/07/05/2226252/greece-rejects-eu-terms#
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Anything longer than a month or two and its a race to the bottom.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Ironically enough, the reparations and austerity forced on Germans because of WWI is in part also what got them so fired up about Jewish people, in that stereotypical it would be Jewish moneylenders and banks collecting on German debt. Now you have Germany in the role of usury and the Greeks facing austerity, and rebelling because of it. Now the Greek government is talking about printing money and screwing the rest of Europe...
1) International Banks take stupid risks giving out inappropriate loans to people who can't possibly pay it back (Housing Crisis)
2) Greece's already shaky economy fails.
3) Banks get bailout out by Governments (Taxpayers)
4) International Banks take stupid risks giving out inappropriate loans to people who can't possibly pay it back (Greece Crisis)
5) Greece's already shaky economy fails.
6) International Banks take stupid risks giving out inappropriate loans to people who can't possibly pay it back (Greece Crisis)
7) Banks get bailout out by Governments (Taxpayers)
8) Repeat...
As I see it, a lot of hate towards Greece, when you look at it, the people who are getting all the money are Banks, and they people who are paying all the money are Taxpayers. This all just seems like another complex shell/ponzi game to shuffle as much taxpayer money into banking coffers. It seems to me that some people in Europe are getting played, while others are getting paid, at the same time as blaming the Greeks somehow for the whole mess.
I've been to Greece. They have no economy, it is about 95% based on tourists coming to visit. Greece doesn't even have proper sewage system. In order to compete with other destinations, they succeed by making their's much cheaper. You do this by deflating your currency. By joining the Euro, they lose the ability to control this. I can't see how no one saw this coming.
but try telling that to someone "you can't all have nice cars like the tourrerists"
Sorry, no sympathy here. I see hundreds of cards every day that are nicer than my 2010 Honda Fit with a dent in the door. Somehow I manage to go on.
but try telling that to someone "you can't all have nice cars like the tourrerists"
Sorry, no sympathy here. I see hundreds of cards every day that are nicer than my 2010 Honda Fit with a dent in the door. Somehow I manage to go on.
I don't doubt the truth of your first sentence. The second is an admirable composition fallacy. The third a red-herring. Well done! Congratulations on your admission to the bar. But if you ever hope to make Silk you'll need to combine the three into some sort of semblance of an argument (and do a little research into what constitutes austerity - a dented door in a five year old car will only work in Saudi Arabia).
Not sure what word you were aiming for there. Did you mean people who plant bombs, or ones who SHIT! randomly shout PISSARSEBUGGERBUM! expletives when they CUNT! speak?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Not sure what word you were aiming for there.
The word I wrote. What locals in tourist economies all over the world call tourists. They all have local slang for it that means the same thing - part tourist (they bring money), part terrorist (noxious and obnoxious).
Mexican call them senor and senorita.
And the system gets worse and worse. When Greece goes bad, Euro lowers and Germany gets even more competitive. The whole Euro thing is a financial trap. Of course, the nations that adopt it get in it for themselves, but all is masked in the sudden initial surge of income (when they get a strong currency) and because the Euro countries themselves do a fair bit of lobby to expand their market.
i live in silicon valley, where BMWs and Mercedes (US luxury cars) are the norm, so yeah, #2 is quite true. for #3, i realize i'm well off compared to much of the world, which is exactly my point. the observation that someone has something nicer than you isn't license to revolt against the system.
maybe english is not the first language here. do you know the term "whoosh"? it's the sound of an important contextual point passing quickly between your ears.
the observation that someone has something nicer than you isn't license to revolt against the system.
I didn't say, or mean, they had a license. Most people just want - enlightened self interest is rare.
That's why preaching austerity is a fail - you might as well say "don't steal from those that have more", or don't migrate to somewhere the opportunities are better". It's just pissing into the wind and trying to stay dry.
That woosh you hear is the wind whistling through your head.
So many questions come to mind now.
How long before the new Greek drachmas (or whatever they call them) appear? Will it be folding money before it's available in bank accounts? Bank accounts before banknotes? Simultaneous?
How long before the price of the drachma, relative to the Euro, drops to half its initial price?
Will Greece do a banana republic-style pretend exchange rate, with control of cash crossing its borders? How about banning the use of other currencies, Soviet-style?
There are so many terrible monetary ideas to emulate. Which ones will Greece do? All of them?
Will Greece invent any new ones?
Stay tuned.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
Since voting either "yes" or "no" are both horrible, just leave the country.
Leave Greece.
I see a lot of people telling that the Greeks are lazy and asked for money and now don't want to pay. I also see a lot of people telling that it's all the fault of EU.
Well, the thing is, this is not even the question. This that we are assisting is not about not wanting to pay, it's about a democratic elected government being able to take their own choices on how to pay it.
The EU, IMF want to dictate how the Greek government should run their country in order to get money to pay them back.
Now, look, there are two big reasons why this should be ridiculous to you: 1. If you believe in democracy, the sole prospect that an outside entity should dictate how a democratic elected government should act, it's abhorrent. 2. If you believe in logic, you will see that if the program was very definitely not working so far (and if you check the data you see it didn't work in Portugal and Spain either), then you should think a bit and see that an even worst program is also not going to work
Bottom line, what I see the new Greek government (and please notice that it's a really new government, not one of the Big Center parties that ruled Europe for the past decades) asking, is for time to implement their program and try to get out of the mess the country is in (which is fault of the previous Greek governments, the EU and the IMF).
That woosh you hear is the wind whistling through your head.
oh come on at least you can do is come up with your own troll. how lazy are you?
but I'm not clever enough to explain why. Please read this. Also follow the link in the article to "This Time is Different" and read that too. We've been doing this little song and dance where banks screw up and blame the public for centuries...
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That woosh you hear is the wind whistling through your head.
[...] how lazy are you?
Very. I spend hours saving several minutes. Maybe you should watch the video I referenced and take yourself a little less seriously (everyone else does)?
it's interesting how i joked about you copying my troll, and you get out of that that i take myself too seriously. it's like you have this rolodex of cliche phrases and you are throwing them out at random regardless of the context. your first response was barely intelligible by the way.
The only thing you have to watch out for is that you don't borrow so much that you find yourself unable to pay it back when interest rates climb. That's the situation Greece found themselves in
That's actually a pretty far cry from the situation Greece found themselves in... you see, interest rates are still low, and despite that fact, Greece can't service its debt.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.