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Farmers Demand Right To Fix Their Own Dang Tractors (modernfarmer.com)
According to a report, farmers are demanding the right to fix their tractors. The report reminds us that owners of tractors aren't allowed to fix them, thanks to a set of laws designed to protect software intellectual property. The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle." Some farmers are voicing their opinion against these laws. From the article: What this has meant is that tractor owners can't repair their own tractors -- and if they do, they're in violation of the DMCA. So, if a machine stops working, its owner can't pop the hood, run some tests, and find out what's going on; he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues). This can be expensive and time-consuming, and more to the point, unnecessary -- at least according to farmers in several states, who are lobbying to force tractor manufacturers make their diagnostic tools available to independent repair shops and owners. Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble. But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
In a few decades farmers won't even need tractors.
For US
So basically John Deere is reserving the right to cancel any of these licenses, impound the farmer's tractors, and put him out of a job?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Remember it's the Clintons that signed DMCA into law.
For that pair of lawyers, everything is for sale.
But will more than one in a hundred bother to show up on election day to try to vote out the Republicrats? I think not.
People pretend to be annoyed by bullshit, but every two years they unanimously say "more bullshit, please." Deep down, people like getting fucked over, and they prove this preference, over and over again.
How enforcable is an "implied license"? How can we know what words are in it, to enforce?
I strongly sympathize with the farmers in this case, but then I've been fixing mechanical things my entire life, both personally and professionally. This bullshit has crippled a large chunk of the aftermarket and the auto industry, and now its spreading to here..????? Excuse me, but why would I pay 5- grand for a tractor that I'm only licensing? Are they gona do *all* the maintenance on it for the 50 grand they are charging? If no then they can go pound sand.
(General -purpose row crop 50-90 PTO HP 4x4 w/remote hydraulic and a bucket)
C|N>K
Who gives a shit apart from the owners of the tractor makers?
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
They are trying to subvert the foundations of capitalism - ownership.
They are abusing the DMCA - a badly designed law that was created to stop IP theft but has instead become a weapon of fraud to trick people into paying ownership prices for what in reality is merely renting.
It's like if you go to buy a house and you pay $800k, up front, expecting to be able to get a mortgage, leave the place to your kids, and sell it if you have to, only to be told later that you merely rented the place for your life time.
Fraud is fraud - whether it is done by outright lies, or instead by hidden fine print in contracts, that no one but lawyer reads
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I think we are missing some critical info pertaining to this story. This is no different than buying a car with a warranty and then putting some lame speaker system in that fucks up the electrical. Why should John Deer pay to fix a problem after some moron went digging around potentially fucking it up even further. I'm no legal scholar, but I would assume this "Law" doesn't apply to people who own the tractor outright and aren't planning on bringing it to a service center. Thoughts??????
the farmers, should they have to sue, have precedent on their side. Car manufacturers were forced to open up their diagnostic codes for car owners and allow third party connections. That seemed to work out the best for everyone. Showing once again that short-sighted, for profit motivations may not be the best for the market.
The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."
If this is true, then why does the manufacturer not have an obligation to repair the tractor for free?
/. refugees on Usenet: news:comp.misc
Don't reward bad behavior. While the law does need to be changed, the other avenue is to stop buying John Deere tractors. There are several other options. Case IH seems to be more than willing to supply repair manuals for their equipment.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
...would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers
bullshit. Speaking as someone who grew up on a farm, almost no independent farmer "buys" a tractor. Its all leased seasonally or yearly, depending on what/when you need it. These manufacturers have a constant stream of interest payments and down payments coming from their own financial lending firms.
A Claas-Axion, used: is $140,000. assuming youve got a lot more than 100 acres, youre going to need a xerion...which again used is more than 200 grand. Do you want to harvest those crops too? you wont be buying Claas because theyre harder than hens teeth to find. John Deere is going to run you through the ringer for another $335,000 "9 series" combine that will refuse to start for almost any code.
so in short, no one on a farm owns a tractor and if they do its 50 years old. Youre hearing more about the DMCA iissue because shops are wising up and refusing to carry replacement and repair parts, at the behest of people like Deere that want to move more new stock in a car dealership model.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Ok, NOW I've heard everything...maybe not I guess it can get weirder, but there is NO such thing as an 'implied license'. Hell, the standard software contract license & T's&Cs are 'open to legal debate' (e.g. if they are legal or not) and these guys want to claim there's an 'implied license'...wow, just wow.
Someone needs to reverse-engineer a John Deere tractor and start selling tractor-servicing tools and software on the darknet. This will force John Deere to either lower there costs to compete, or lose oodles of money "securing" their software and fighting hackers.
You don't want to give your car's manufacturer an excuse to do the same thing!
(Yes, I know they're half-way there already... but it's only HALF WAY)
"...Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble...."
Since we're talking about John Deere here, let me point out the fact that their global revenue almost doubled in the last ten years. In short, fuck your concerns about them being "in trouble".
"...But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop."
For now, cars can be serviced at any independent shop. Let me know how that changes when Tesla becomes the dominant force on the road today, or when autonomous automobile laws force people to maintain their vehicles according to specific guidelines designed to maximize revenue for manufacturers and authorized support centers.
It's not too hard to clearly see where the concept of ownership is headed in the future.
If the tractor mfr's want to go this route, why not just do a lease? Pretty much same terms apply, and they do the maintenance.
The EPA cares. John Deere is exploiting and EPA demand that the engine software be protected from tampering. Yes, the media is ignoring that this is largely a response to a federal mandate that has no practical benefit for anyone.
I can no longer repair my washing machine myself, it uses a proprietary modem to generate tones to transfer diagnostic information. I cannot legally dissect those tones thanks to the DMCA. Very slippery slope ahead
or buy something made in canada, where they don't have a goverment paid for by corporate america.
why do people need to ask permission to fix a tractor in the first place?
1. The EPA makes us do this. We have to encrypt stuff so that you can't easily add a emissions defeat device. If we didn't encrypt it every redneck farmer would be ripping off their DPF and other emissions devices because they didn't understand it. (Just like they did with catalytic converters way back when)
2. Even if you had the 'source' in front of you it'd still require tens of thousands of dollars in tools chains. I would put money on the fact that the source isn't even in C. Building ECM flashfiles, in some work circles, is up there with voodoo. These aren't your grandpas ECMs there isn't a "Tractor_ECM.c" file that you can make some changes to and recompile with GCC. As far as I know there isn't an OSS compiler available for embedded PPC and certainly not one available for eTPU functionality.
If you want to modify your tractor or car to do your bidding you're better off making your own fully open ECM from scratch.
Can't the farmers just buy another tractor from another company? Speak with your wallet if the politicians aren't helping.
If you don't buy the tractors with bells and whistles, the manufacturers will be forced to make what you want.
DMCA is evil. But we all knew that from the get go. People late to the game knows that now.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Japanese farming equipment is very good quality and reasonably priced.
I'm sure it is. Doesn't mean you can get parts for it quickly and easily though. One huge advantage to buying from a company like Deere is that they have an excellent service and parts network almost everywhere in the US. There is a Deere dealer within relatively easy driving distance just about anywhere you go in the US. Buy from a no-name and you might have a harder time of it. Of course if Deere insists on shooting themselves in the foot like this then that might become less of an issue.
Some of the Chinese stuff is very good now too.
Same problem as above but worse.
Soon enough, there will be a market for softwareless, or open tractors...
There is already one company here (Hungary) trying to do something like that, albeit for different reasons.
The vast majority of repairs are mechanical in nature that are more traditional old school repairs and don't require electronic diagnostics. On a car its typically emissions related that you need to diagnose, Tractors don't have the same requirements. Things that break are typically mechanic, and fixable. Again, is silly, but lets not paint a picture that you need to take the tractor in to have the tire replaced either.
We encrypted all your files. Pay us some bitcoin.
--John Deere
People seeking DCMA reform couldn't ask for a better ally than farmers.
Farmers are the most politically active constituency.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Just like in our business, uptime is crucially important for these farmers. During the spring planting time and the fall harvest period, if that machine breaks, it needs to be RIGHT NOW. They can't wait a "few days" for the dealership mechanic to visit. And he's busy as all hell fixing our people's shit. This isn't just a bunch hay-seeds saying they want to break their knuckles for the fun of it. This is a very serious situation that can have devastating effects on the bottom line.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
"he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues)"
I can't believe that this shit is both legal and enforceable. Ridiculous. Just to put it into perspective, pretend that this applied to your car.
-
"Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers"
Oh NOES, something that might reduce a corporation's profits??? OMG, how awful, it's an atrocity beyond words!!!
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
There is no reason not to tell the driver/owner that a sensor is out or a cable unplugged and that it doesn't take a "factory service center" to fix it.
The chips and coding to provide this info to the "farmer" are trivial compared to the price of the equipment.
Wouldn't it be up to John Deere to repair the tractors on their own dime?
But ONLY if they will support a Universal Right to Repair law.
Cars and Tractors should not be special. We should have the same rights to ALL DEVICES mechanical and electronic.
Iowa farmers: Please ask the state to send all property tax bills for John Deere tractors to the "owner" (John Deere) instead of the farmer. Ask for all the state sales tax money back since there was no sale. Ask JD for the liability insurance policy number for all the tractors since they apparently own them. The possibilities are endless
If the answer is no then the solution is simple... don't buy John Deere tractors. If they all do it, then the government needs to step in.
Does the John Deere contract say 'Ownership' anywhere?
If it does, then the common-law definition of 'Ownership' should apply.
The right to fix and repair, alter ( paint it pink ), modify ( afterburners ) and upgrade ( Aircraft landing lights ) is part of the deal.
Especially for a $100,000 + investment that should be expected to run for 30 + years.
Boycott the company that requires their service, until they feel the economic pressure - and become more "consumer-oriented".
Auto companies are trying to do this, too.... same treatment.
There are laws requiring you to have a license to drive a car, fly a plane, or practice medicine. But there is no law anyplace that requires you to have a license to use software, watch a movie or listen to music. The EULA is nothing but a CONTRACT, and if you didn't agree to that, you have no obligation to any part of it.
My cousins all have New Holland equipment for this reason. They're easy to repair, all the engine codes are published and parts are easily orderable.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Then how can they make you pay for repairs? If john deere still owns the tractor, then they should be maintaining it at their expense.
From the Goblin POV, the only true master of any object is the person who made it. They do not like the habit of witches and wizards acquiring goblin made objects and passing them from wizard to wizard by sale or by inheritance. What wizard think as the price paid to a Goblin own an object, is merely a license fee to use the object for the lifetime of the purchaser. When the wizard dies, or no longer wants to own it, the object should be returned to the Goblin who made it.
John Deere will agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
THIS is what "Preventing Repair" REALLY looks like.
Apple's Pentalobe screws are NOTHING like threatening DMCA action. Apple hasn't run-around trying to stop the manufacture and sale of Pentalobe screwdrivers, nor filed DMCA Takedown notices for iFixit and other Apple repair videos, nor attempted to stop the booming business of iPhone/iPad repair shops nor those selling repair parts.
This is WAY different, and needs to be stopped. What farmer (or homeowner) in their right mind would buy John Deere at this point?
This is why we needed it.
Screw it though, gotta protect those profits. The human race is fucked.
What is this some sort of group prejudice being encouraged in a Slashdot headline? I'm sorry if I'm mistaken but has the ring of looking down on someone to me. Perhaps the tongue in cheek remark of someone from the city who thinks farmers are uneducated woodchucks.
It's been more than 15 years since I lived there but I grew up in the county seat of a county primarily based in agriculture. It is pretty typical for a farmer to have a masters or higher and rare for them to have no degree. Most farms these days are multi-million dollar a year operations with highly educated staff required to operate them. Forget your images of Green Acres. Your hot shot city executive doesn't just lack the grit, he likely isn't intelligent enough and certainly isn't well enough educated to be a farmer. Depending on which portions of agriculture you specialize in, it's best thought of as either an engineering or science field and solidly in the realm of STEM. More than that, not only is there a great deal of school required but farmers are typically multi-generation and have as much or more hands on experience when they start school as many STEM workers have toward the end of their career.
iii if the farmers only are "licensing" the equipment (and that is UTTER NONSENSE).
Who is responsible for the property tax on the equipment and in the case of an accident, legal liability?
some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble.
Protect them from Capitalism?
That is not how it works.
We as a society have to banish the practice of rent seeking. Not only isn't it productive, but it's actually counterproductive.
Why not just blacklist John Deere and buy your tractors from somebody else who doesn't pull this shit?
Or is there no alternatives, and John Deere has a monopoly on tractors worldwide or something?
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
If they actually OWN the tractor, then they should be able to repair it as required, themselves if they're capable, and no one should be allowed to tell them 'no'. If they got tricked into a 'lease' or 'rental' by unclear paperwork, hidden agreements, or any other type of obfuscation of true intent on the part of John Deere, then there should be legal remedy up to and including invalidating any 'agreements' farmers have been tricked into signing, court order(s) mandating the cease and desist of the deceptive practices, and perhaps even compensation to the farmers for lost income.
On the other hand if the farmers KNEW that they were basically renting/leasing the tractors, then I have no sympathy for them -- except that in that case they should get their lawyers to pound on John Deere for not being instantly responsive to breakdowns of the rented/leased equipment, since it's all mission-critical to the time-sensitive nature of the farmers' business.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
If you are only using the tractor on their own property, how would the company ever know that you were doing your own repairs in the first place?
Just know that you won't get any help from the manufacturer, it will totally void any warranties you might have otherwise had, and the manufacturer will probably make things difficult for you, so your expertise level might have to be somewhat higher than what would be required to repair a vehicle made, say, in the 1970's.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
This is a sad state of affairs. Old tractors never die they just become more valuable. Save them.
It is a terrible thing to do, good for a while but ingenuity falters over time when ignorance is broad and skills are isolated to fields. Specialists are usually the least innovative.
I saw a documentary on some cable channel years ago that was on tractors and heavy equipment. They went into this issue somewhat and showed the complexity of the new machines were built using 10-20x the part count of the 1970's and earlier models.
Farmers are not at all alike, yes many can be quite wealthy some not. The extreme NE has their share of farms, the corporate farms would call hobby(50-200 acres) and I've seen them worked for 50 years with what is today a $2-5k tractor... ALL this new equipment is really doing a dis-service to people down the line in needless complexity.
Sure you can use our diagnostic tools. One million dollars please. Per year.
So if I can replace the operating system on my computer, table, or phone with a open source operating system, could we go along those lines. If a new operating system was developed to completely replace the operating system on the tractor, would it be legal to put it on the tractor? You would not be tampering with any of the copyright protected software, since it would just be erased and replaced with the open source software. I understand that this would not be easy and the the hardware specification are probably closely guarded. Also getting an example tractor to dig into and possibly render unworkable at least temporarily is an expense proposition. Just an idea. I am not an embedded programmer, so this is not really in my realm of expertise, but open source could revolutionize the farming industry for the farmers. The tractors would become commodities just like PCs.
Farmers should seriously consider why they would want to vote for Mike Pence, since he has been a staunch receiver of campaign contributions from tractor manufacturers and others championing the DCMA.
But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
So Tesla has no problem with me fiddling around with the software that runs Autopilot? I don't mean installing an update they send, I mean reverse engineering the code and attempting to make it do something different.
"Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers"
Who besides the tractor manufacturers would have this stance? It sounds like John Deere is taking a page from the printer manufacturers book, sell something at/near/below cost and then ream your customers on consumables. This is completely antithetical to the long established market of oem/aftermarket parts and shops. Of course it wouldn't be possible without a government enforced monopoly at the manufactures pleasure over something a consumer has purchased and has full possession of.
using DMCA to enforce a repair monopoly is indefensible, but be careful what you wish for by allowing anyone to mod their own software. There are millions of diesel Mercedes owners who will want to "performance mod" their cars rather than allow them to be fixed to comply with pollution control laws; and don't even think about the implications of modding the software for your self driving car.
Buy future tractors from Alibaba:
https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=Tractor
As John Deere's stock price declines, I bet they would change their policy to make keep their customers (happy).
Oh, just shut up already, you whiny liberal bitches. This is the free market we're talking about here. You can't just call for the government to step in a regulate a sacred thing like that. What you should have done is shopped more carefully. If you wanted a piece of equipment you could service yourself, that's what you should have bought. The invisible hand can fix all ills. Shame on you for not wielding it more responsibly.
/s
On the Microsoft farm, they make shady deals that all tractors are sold with Microsoft proprietary parts. They sneak Microsoft microphones on all their parts, and you are required to install cameras in the barns for United States tractor safety compliance. Then they go around talking about how Linux tractors will never be in the fields. They pay for stories then send teams of anonymous tractor specialists to have fake discussions about how the camera parts and microphones required for US tractor safety are all just in your head. They don't even exist, plus it says they can in the fine print of the agreements.
Slashdot fag farm.
Old NH, maybe.
Newer NH is all CNH, which is Fiat Group. They don't run a charity, and they don't reveal engine codes.
1) least effective - stop buying that brand - assumes the others aren't all doing it
2) cost the company so much damn money they change their mind. this can be done legally with lawyers, or illegally with molitov cocktails to their assets. yes they have insurance, but if the ins companies have to pay off a few billion dollars in claims, guess what's going to happen to their rates?
3) nationalize the company and shoot the top-level management, board of directors, and anyone owning 10% or more of the stock. preferably public executions to make sure the point is load and clear. think french revolution.
I'm guessing the avg american is probably on board with #1, and would like to talk tough about #2, but wouldn't actually want to firebomb the local dealership cause they know the ppl who work there.
still, if you want answers, these would work.
taking it out on congress might work also, if you apply step 3. you'd be killing the wrong people at this point, but honestly, when you are doing publinc executions just to make a point, you can execute just about anyone, and people will get the idea that you're mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore.
disclaimer - I personally don't think killing is the best way to solve problems. but non-lethal beatings of those involved are hard to organize, and its hard to let 1 million farmers all get a chance to throw a right-hook at the bad guys, without killing them from repeated blows.
still, taking the money would probably scare them almost as well. maybe that should be what we do, as step 2.5 ?
If the abominable Tesla distribution model will become more common, you can forget about the 3rd party shops.
This is exactly how lease hold works in the UK.
So their motivation is no longer to make a good, durable product, but one that is incredibly complicated, delicate, and expensive (aka, a Porche or Ferrari), requiring frequent repairs that can only be done by them (a monopoly with DMCA teeth).
Yes, some of the remaining big farmers (some of which have Park Place residences) are assholes, but they have suppliers that are a perfect match.
My first brother-in-law was in a car accident. Because he was NOT wearing his seat belt at the time, he was thrown about the cabinet but walked away from the accident. The driver seat and area was destroyed and, had he worn his seltbelt, he would have been killed in the accident. One news story, when seat belt were coming into cars, stated that in 98% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will save a life but in 2% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will kill a life. People get to choose--even if it is illegal. (Now, in the case of my first brother-in-law, a worn seltbelt might have saved his spouse and children a whole lot of pain.)
dealer only service even an HOA can't do that. HOA's can't block you from getting dish or directv. They can't say you must use our HVAC that costs a lot more then other local shops.
This is the sort of thing that prompted Open Source Ecology's open-source hardware - the vital machines of civilization, built from collaboratively updated open source blueprints, made to a modular design from off-the-shelf parts. Know FreeCAD? Welding? You can make a tractor. I've seen one of the initial prototypes, and it was doing the job.
http://opensourceecology.org/g...
https://www.ted.com/talks/marc...
Their current push is open-source homebuilding, but it builds on all of the machines they've made. https://www.kickstarter.com/pr...
In my estimation, this is one of the most important open source projects of all time. This stuff is maintainable and built without planned obsolescence. We need that kind of freedom at the base of civilization.
Then dont buy your next tractor on those terms.
John Deere tractors dont have the quality build that they used to have anyway. I'm seeing more and more plastic in those things.
My grampa used to swear up & down by John Deere, wouldnt buy anything else. Here i am 2 generations later & theres not a single JD on the property, and i dont expect there ever will be.
Fuck you John & the Deere you rode in on.
It's specifically illegal for banks, who invented it.
davecb@spamcop.net
3rd party hardware people should jump on that bandwagon. There isn't all that much to an ECU, the simplest way to overcome Deere's stupidity will be by ditching their ECU modules and replacing them with 3rd party drop-in replacements. There's plenty of vendors out there that could offer such products, the main reason they didn't jump on it yet is that Deere can stop being stupid at any time, making the 3rd party efforts worth quite a bit less. OTOH, farmers may be jaded enough that even if Deere reversed on their IP retardiness, they perhaps would stick with a 3rd party solution.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
It was inevitable that eventually some millennials would become farmers, and bring their whiny complaints to an otherwise respectable industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Prof. Benardo De La Paz refers to a system called rational anarchy.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
and you will have an article properly framed for the /. audience. Liberal /. pride themselves on their progressive tollerance. One of the cornerstones of modern progressive tolerant liberalism is the ability to judge anyones character based solely on their race, geographic region on domicile and especially occupation. Just as all priests rape children, all farmers are by definition racist homphobes who enjoy sucking each others tiny cocks when they are not raping cows.
You /. should be happy that these evil white racists farmers are no longer able to fix the tractors. Hell farmers are too stupid to fix anything, and they would only bumble it up and turn their tractor into an african american lynching machine.
No farmers should be allowed to work on tractors. They should have to ship them to New York or California, where smart people can work on them. People who do not rape farm animals.
I grew up around a farm. The reality is that most farms, especially smaller farms, can't go running to the dealer every time a screw comes loose on a piece of equipment. Cost aside, you often have a very narrow window to get hay in, crops harvested, etc. and it's not always feasible to haul the equipment 30 miles and wait a week to get it repaired. The skill set for being a successful farmer includes general mechanic, welding and machine shop skills.
Telling a farmer that he/she can fix the tractor is very similar to telling an IT professional that when a mission critical server goes down, you close the business for a week while the server gets shipped out and a new hard drive gets installed at a premium price.
The tractors have GPS and drive themselves. Never in history has less human labor been involved in farming.
There are no family farms these days, except for crops that can't be automated like asparagus.
Your story of yesteryear means nothing in 2016 any more than a Charles Dickens novel.
I don't agree with John Deere's stance... but here's another thought to consider...
I work for a major car company and was recently having a conversation with our of tech instructors.
He was at a (3rd party) body shop the other day and witnessed their service guy replacing a windshield on one of our brand of vehicles. Soon after, it was rolled out for a waiting customer.
Our instructor asked, "is that car all done?". The service manager said "yes".
"Have you done the camera calibration for the safety system's automatic braking that's required after windshield replacement.".
The manager wasn't aware of the requirement, let alone how to do it.
Now, imagine if the customer got into an accident because their safety system didn't brake properly. Who would the customer blame?
Point: With vehicle systems becoming so complex, I can understand why John Deere is trying to restrict (albeit, it seems too restrictive in my opinion). Finding a balance on what can be touched/cannot be touched can be a fine line.
I had to scroll down way too far to find a post like this. While "nobody ever got fired" for buying a Deere, there are other combines out there. I found Agco first. You might be the odd man out at first, but if Deere is pissing you off that much, it looks like maybe not all equipment manufacturers are being dicks. My first thought was "Will overseas equipment makers please pick up the white courtesy phone".
Change takes time, but it can happen. I remember when nobody drove foreign cars and we made fun of Toyota drivers. For big ticket items like cars and tractors, it takes time; but if you make shit or treat people badly your business will suffer. Stop treating people badly while you still have a chance, Deere.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Hungary has someone designing a non-electronic tractor?
In the 1960s, the Volksgagon bug came with a small tool kit, for small repairs and maintenance.
I have worked on Volkswagons, Fords, Chevys, and Buicks.... Fiats... Corvettes... and lawn-mowers.
( sorry, not really a motorcycle freak )
What I'd like to see in autos, lawnmowers, tractors, snowmobiles, etc..
Easy maintenance for air/fuel/oil/transmission filters.
Sparkplugs, Thermostats, sensors, Wiring, Hoses, easy to replace.
Fluids easy to replace.
Belts and Brakepads - ditto.
With a simple tool set. 3 wrenches, a socket set, and voltmeter.
A decent manual.
Now - when are the brains yapping here gonna start designing these?
Probably never - just like my Mom, who loves to argue and gripe, but claims 'technical illiteracy' about doing something.
Here's how:
1) find the most reliable engine/transmission available. This will probably be the simplest one...
Or- design one just for the purpose. remember KISS.
Maybe just a small natural gas turbine/wankel/generator and direct-drive electric motor wheels..... (does it HAVE to be Diesel?)
2) over design. design to last. Steel, Cast iron, loose tolerances ( think AK-47 reliability ).
3) Minimize electronics, feedback systems, and anything not necessary. ( roll-up windows! driver-adjusted seats. Maybe valves to control heating
need AC?, have an electric unit accessory or a fan. DO have a CB-radio. )
4) Skip 4, the morons wouldn't understand.
5) make it easy to assemble and take apart, hard to break.
6) skip 6, this would just be giving in to sales.
7) Use epoxy marine paint.
8) sell it as a do-it-yourself kit ( avoid all regulatory bodies possible ).
"implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."
This is no different than the implied license to occupy your property for as long as you hold the title. You don't actually own your tractor, but you also don't actually own your farm. The government owns your farm, and grants you license to occupy the land (fee simple title) and license to sow and reap from it, license for livestock to graze upon it, and license to use the water that falls upon it (which must be purchased in conjunction with both reaping rights and grazing rights, since the water that falls naturally becomes part of the activities of those rights).
Nobody in the US actually owns the property they have title to. A fee-simple title merely grants you the right to IMPROVE opon a parcel of land by placing a permanent structure upon it. You have no default right to perform farming, collect water, or take minerals from it. Those must be purchased separately. Of course, you must pay a tithe to the government for the privilege of holding title.
Also, people who know how to read and think should mod you down too, because you said nothing about John Deere's shady dealings.
The first three paragraphs (of four): total irrelevancy. Nobody gives a flying fuck how "noble" you think someone else might think the victims of this crime are. If they were "noble" then the crime would be inexcusable, and if they aren't "noble" the crime would be inexcusable. And it took you three paragraphs to talk about whatever-the-fuck that picture in your head is. Which, incidentally, had jack shit to do with the story.
Then, after shitting out of your mouth off-topic for three paragraphs, it looks like maybe you're gong to touch on the discu-- oh, shit.
Nope, another shit paragraph. The fourth paragraph started out slightly promising, but then: Shit. Turns out (according to you, at least) that you have zero knowledge of what happened, and also dodge the topic of the crazy evil law and the criminally-intended business. Your entire contribution comes down to "I suspect..." followed by a hypothesis.
Now, that's ok. It's ok to have a hypothesis, and your hypothesis does happen to be on topic. (!) Good, ok, maybe we're getting somewhere. Your hypothesis is that there was a discount deal of some kind, where people paid less for a DRMed tractor in exchange for getting locked into some kind of exclusive maintenance agreement where they take it up the ass after the sale. Ok.
So then you begin to introduce your evidence and thoughts about the agreeme--oops. Your post suddenly ended. No citations where someone spilled the beans. No anecdotes about a time when you were offered, or did the offering. No nothing.
No thoughts. No evidence. Not even weak evidence (which is totally good on Slashdot) like an analogy to an anecdote. Just.. nothing.
Emptiness. You had almost nothing to say. You didn't suggest that you know something. You've got some kind of problem with farming and possibly the people who do it, and you think that maybe because they're bad people, businesses should try to defraud them. That's about all we learned from you: that you're a vacuous asshole.
I don't think assholes should be modded down. But you're a vacuous one. No art. No content.
I don't think empty vacuous minds should be modded down for staring into space like retards. But you didn't just drool out your mouth: you shat out of it.
I vote: mod this worthless person's worthless words down. Off-topic would be the correct setting, though as usual for off-topic, it's possibly motivated by desire to Troll. Your choice, moderators.
Yep. Got a small old(1958) Fordson utility tractor which broke a ring. I'm pulling out the engine and doing a complete rebuild. Now I know why I can still get a complete rebuild kit for my old tractor. Buying a new tractor is just not an option anymore. Thanks for the warning about that. The way my old tractor was overbuilt, I expect it'll last another 60 years after the engine rebuild... :-)
>> differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
Try taking your European premium car to an independent. None of them have access to the diagnostic tools or software that the dealers have, that in some cases are necessary for even basic tasks that in any way involve the ECU.
Since filesharers get sued all the time under the DMCA, it's time those farmers get put in jail for fixing John Deere's tractors. The farmers, on the other hand, might want to charge John Deere for housing the company's tractors on their land.
Just get an older tractor. And consumers, demand you obtain your food from farms that maintain their own equipment hence sustainability is number one.
Corporate America and their stooges in government (in BOTH parties) are behaving like magicians.
You are supposed to be symathetic to their legitimate copyright concerns, and not notice that they are absolutely NOT honoring the basic bargain of the whole copyright scheme. They are doing this with patents too. Basically they have corrupted all IP law to the benefit of corporate boards and stockholders and yes even the employees of these bit companies who benefit from the abuse by not having to be nimble and make new products and not having to compete with more nimble and energetic upstart competitor companies.
Copyright and Patent are both supposed to have the taxpayers and government give limited protection to a creative act in exchange for full disclosure into the public record and the eventual transition of the creative thing into the public domain. Nothing in patents or copyrights, as put into American law originally by the nation's founders, would prohibit a person from studying the thing disclosed (in PUBLIC RECORDS) even without a license to use the patent and even without a "right to copy" (a copyright) license. Indeed, with patents, anybody is free to use the patent on his own and not for profit to verify that the patented thing is indeed possible (which is one way to invalidate a patent, by showing that it cannot be implemented as disclosed and thus the disclosure is illegally insufficient). There's also nothing in original patent or copyright law that would prohibit a person from repairing a thing they bought and wich they have a right to nkow the details of if it is patented or copyrighted. Indeed, it you license a piece of sheet music and damage a page, you are free to repair the page.
Big corporations making significant piles of money from IP, have bought their share of lawmakers in both parties who have in-turn made many corrupting changes to patent and copyright law over the decades, mostly stretching the duration of protection for decades enabling companies like Disney to continue to milk the works of its long-dead creator lang after they should have become public domain. These same companies are desperate to convince people and courts and politicians that there is some mystical aspect of IP law that permits them to control a thing after they have sold it and to not fully-disclose a thing while copyrighting/patenting it. We're all supposed to get flummoxed by the complexity and distracted by screams of "piracy" and so forth and not remember that there's simply no basis for the idea that somebody who buys a tractor has every right to know every detail of how it works and every right to repair it.
Unfortuantely the biggest and most-influential buainesses, like Appple, are fully-dependent upon this invalid business model and they have business connections to the big media companies who are fully-onboard with all the IP law hoodwinking and together they communicate with the majority of voters via a near 24/7 nearly-direct-brain-implant pipeline of things like iPhones, "social networks", entertainment TV, etc. The public is on the entertainment equivalent of a morphine drip and is actually encouraged NOT to think hard about serious public policy matters. Most only consider such things when they are programmed to, like supporting changes to the internet or telecom business policies which are presented to them as for THEIR benefit but are actually just designed to shift power or money from telcos to device or content companies. If we could switch off the internet and the cell phones for a month, people MIGHT come out oif their collective stupor to start asking questions about just who is running things and for whose benefits and by what rules, instead of concentrating on the latest news from the Kardashian family.
Translation: "We can't be as profitable if we can't fleece customers."
Table-ized A.I.
Slow spell-checker now disabled.
The spell checker I use was changing things as I typed and I did not catch the meaning being changed as I fought it and edited its on-the-fly changes to my admittedly bad typing. In undoing its slow changes I used diffrerent words and inverted the meaning. Apps that run like that can lead to unintended stuff, particularly if they become sluggish.
I MEANT TO TYPE:
there is no basis for the idea that somebody who buys a tractor has no right to know every detail of how it works.
The point is that we are being fooled into thinking the opposite of what the founders of the nation intended, because it's in the interests of the people making piles of money from that magic act to keep us mesmerized, and many of them are running the media and the companies whose products we use to access the media. The truth however is right there in front of us if we stop listening to THEM and start paying attention to the nation's original laws and documents which are gathering dust in libraries and museums.
We've seen this sort of thing before.
Used to be that farmers would save some of last year's harvest as seed to plant next year. Then along came Monsanto and co and slapped a copyright and a EULA on their seed "technology", and seed-saving became illegal. So now farmers are legally obliged to buy fresh seed every year. And yes, they prosecute for violations, and yes, they do assume guilty until you can prove that your seed contains no Monsanto product, and yes, they will continue to harass.
Guess John Deere took one look at Monsanto's precedent and said "wow, I want some of that rent!"
Hypocrite. 2005 stuff is garbage. Do you not think energy star nor the technologies involved haven't gotten better in 11 years? How about you throw your old bullshit away. You're polluting my grandkid's air!
When the world starts to suck for farmers, the world is really going to suck for people who have to eat.
I see more Kubota dealers around Texas than Deere.
Kubota makes stuff for hobby farms. They deal in small to mid-sized equipment, not the industrial scale stuff. People that are managing 1,000+ acre farms aren't buying Kubota.
Yeah, it might be hard to figure out how to obtain parts overnight
We're not talking about some oil filters and basic supplies you can get from Amazon here. You're thinking like a hobby farmer. The internet is helpful but there are times when you need a proper technician or factory parts which aren't sold direct and that means a factory dealer.
I run a manufacturing company and the big tools we buy cannot be bought off Amazon or anywhere else on the net. Neither can the replacement parts aside from a few consumables. We have to go through the manufacturer or one of their dealers. A cheap one of the presses we buy will start at half a million dollars and go up from there. Farms are no different for the big equipment. The dollar amounts are too large to involve a middle man.
More and more, it's China that is adopting Capitalism and the US seems to becoming Communist. When I pay you for something, I'm buying it - I own it, if you are changing the rules, fine - I will condemn you to the trash-heap of other failed ideas....
There's a lot programmers, sysadmins, and other high-tech people could learn from those who are used to organizing politically for shared ends. Political advocacy is not one of the poorer high-tech person's strengths. There's a streak of undeserved independence in high-tech that doesn't reflect how much people have to work together explicitly for political ends, not dismissing politics as undesirable, unnecessary, or unimportant as you commonly see the high-tech set train each other to espouse.
Digital Citizen
Those dang tractors should be open source!
Is someone making an "Open Source" tractor then? I would think that all this backlash proves there's a captive market for a tractor that is specifically marketed as being open, repairable and free (as in speech).
I live in Northern Vermont, we have a lot of small farms and 98% of the farm machinery I see is ancient. Most farms are using International and Ford tractors built in the 70's and 80's. Partially because Vermont farmers (and most Vermonters) are frugal and practical (read: cheap) and partially because these machines were built tough, are highly repairable and parts are easily available.
How long before they start doing this with new cars? I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened already.
The issue is that no farmer seems to have any balls. This has been litigated for cars and trucks and the reference is the doctrine of first sale.
Maybe now with the farmers' help, the iFixit movement will gain some traction.
An excellent example of the law of unintended consequences.
debugging your tesla
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
So stop buying them.
A pc and a Mac are not the same.
a Ford and a Deere are not the same. Well the little ones are but that is not what they are talking about here. These are highly computerized machines with gps guidance etc. These are multi ton computers.
I bet all of you my slashdot friends have a computer you are using now that says if you put that sound card in you void the warrenties and if you have read every EULA My thoughts and prayers are with your family.
I have sheep. the farmers don't clam me and the ranchers don't want me. But I rub elbows with all and we drink the same coffee.
if you have a little 50 horse tractor with a standard diesel engine your Deere dealer will give you all you need to fix it or you can get it from amazon or ebay or something. If you have a 800hp turbocharged articulated green and yeller and it isn't obvious whats wrong you need to take it to the dealer. I have a 97 ford truck and the chev dealer wont touch it cause he cant afford to buy the proprietary programs to work on fords and the ford dealer has to even for my old one.
wake up it was ever thus and so!
Sometimes 875 horsepower and a whole bunch of bells and whistles isn't enough. Here's one more reason why farmers might want to send John Deere a Deere John letter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQhvruimfs
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Open source farm equipment could solve the problem. I bet there's farmers that are engineers that could make better equipment
Funny thing about the ECU and other code messages needing to be reset by the factory...I have worked in MFGing for 33 years now...and about Ten years ago I started having problems with some of our newer equipment. Called the techs and they would re set it or give me a passcode...come to find out thru my log books that it was repetitive...reason being...THE EQUIPMENT WAS PROGRAMED TO SHUT DOWN TO ENSURE WE MADE OUR LEASE PAYMENTS OR ACCOUNT WAS UP TO DATE.
This is a simple case of Open Source vs Proprietary.
So buy a brand that lets you work on them then? If no other brands are doing that, why not?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.