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Farmers Demand Right To Fix Their Own Dang Tractors (modernfarmer.com)
According to a report, farmers are demanding the right to fix their tractors. The report reminds us that owners of tractors aren't allowed to fix them, thanks to a set of laws designed to protect software intellectual property. The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle." Some farmers are voicing their opinion against these laws. From the article: What this has meant is that tractor owners can't repair their own tractors -- and if they do, they're in violation of the DMCA. So, if a machine stops working, its owner can't pop the hood, run some tests, and find out what's going on; he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues). This can be expensive and time-consuming, and more to the point, unnecessary -- at least according to farmers in several states, who are lobbying to force tractor manufacturers make their diagnostic tools available to independent repair shops and owners. Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble. But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
So basically John Deere is reserving the right to cancel any of these licenses, impound the farmer's tractors, and put him out of a job?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
How enforcable is an "implied license"? How can we know what words are in it, to enforce?
I strongly sympathize with the farmers in this case, but then I've been fixing mechanical things my entire life, both personally and professionally. This bullshit has crippled a large chunk of the aftermarket and the auto industry, and now its spreading to here..????? Excuse me, but why would I pay 5- grand for a tractor that I'm only licensing? Are they gona do *all* the maintenance on it for the 50 grand they are charging? If no then they can go pound sand.
(General -purpose row crop 50-90 PTO HP 4x4 w/remote hydraulic and a bucket)
C|N>K
Who gives a shit apart from the owners of the tractor makers?
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
They are trying to subvert the foundations of capitalism - ownership.
They are abusing the DMCA - a badly designed law that was created to stop IP theft but has instead become a weapon of fraud to trick people into paying ownership prices for what in reality is merely renting.
It's like if you go to buy a house and you pay $800k, up front, expecting to be able to get a mortgage, leave the place to your kids, and sell it if you have to, only to be told later that you merely rented the place for your life time.
Fraud is fraud - whether it is done by outright lies, or instead by hidden fine print in contracts, that no one but lawyer reads
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
the farmers, should they have to sue, have precedent on their side. Car manufacturers were forced to open up their diagnostic codes for car owners and allow third party connections. That seemed to work out the best for everyone. Showing once again that short-sighted, for profit motivations may not be the best for the market.
The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."
If this is true, then why does the manufacturer not have an obligation to repair the tractor for free?
/. refugees on Usenet: news:comp.misc
Don't reward bad behavior. While the law does need to be changed, the other avenue is to stop buying John Deere tractors. There are several other options. Case IH seems to be more than willing to supply repair manuals for their equipment.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
...would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers
bullshit. Speaking as someone who grew up on a farm, almost no independent farmer "buys" a tractor. Its all leased seasonally or yearly, depending on what/when you need it. These manufacturers have a constant stream of interest payments and down payments coming from their own financial lending firms.
A Claas-Axion, used: is $140,000. assuming youve got a lot more than 100 acres, youre going to need a xerion...which again used is more than 200 grand. Do you want to harvest those crops too? you wont be buying Claas because theyre harder than hens teeth to find. John Deere is going to run you through the ringer for another $335,000 "9 series" combine that will refuse to start for almost any code.
so in short, no one on a farm owns a tractor and if they do its 50 years old. Youre hearing more about the DMCA iissue because shops are wising up and refusing to carry replacement and repair parts, at the behest of people like Deere that want to move more new stock in a car dealership model.
Good people go to bed earlier.
You don't want to give your car's manufacturer an excuse to do the same thing!
(Yes, I know they're half-way there already... but it's only HALF WAY)
I don't think farmers are trying to mod their tractors. I think they are trying to repair them without going to John Deere. Which means the tractor is probably out of warranty. Farmers are really cheap people and if they still had some free repair warranty service available to them they'd be using that instead of screwing aroud with hacking into their tractors.
While it would be nice if this just goes to court and somehow weakens the DMCA. I suspect that congress will just write up a quick and dirty exception for the ag lobby and slap a band-aid on the problem to make the farmers happy.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"...Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble...."
Since we're talking about John Deere here, let me point out the fact that their global revenue almost doubled in the last ten years. In short, fuck your concerns about them being "in trouble".
"...But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop."
For now, cars can be serviced at any independent shop. Let me know how that changes when Tesla becomes the dominant force on the road today, or when autonomous automobile laws force people to maintain their vehicles according to specific guidelines designed to maximize revenue for manufacturers and authorized support centers.
It's not too hard to clearly see where the concept of ownership is headed in the future.
If the tractor mfr's want to go this route, why not just do a lease? Pretty much same terms apply, and they do the maintenance.
I'll take unfettered capitalism vs. unfettered Socialism. Like food and toilet paper, you probably can't even obtain a tractor in Venezuela.
In actuality what we have is crony capitalism on display here.
I can no longer repair my washing machine myself, it uses a proprietary modem to generate tones to transfer diagnostic information. I cannot legally dissect those tones thanks to the DMCA. Very slippery slope ahead
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/nothing-drms-like-deere-farmers-cant-fix-tractors/
DMCA is evil. But we all knew that from the get go. People late to the game knows that now.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Bullshit
Japanese farming equipment is very good quality and reasonably priced.
I'm sure it is. Doesn't mean you can get parts for it quickly and easily though. One huge advantage to buying from a company like Deere is that they have an excellent service and parts network almost everywhere in the US. There is a Deere dealer within relatively easy driving distance just about anywhere you go in the US. Buy from a no-name and you might have a harder time of it. Of course if Deere insists on shooting themselves in the foot like this then that might become less of an issue.
Some of the Chinese stuff is very good now too.
Same problem as above but worse.
Intellectual Property (or more accurately called "Imaginary Property") is an example of that subset of socialism known as interventionism.
You sound like an opponent of IP. That makes you, at least to that extent, a capitalist.
This has nothing to do with unfettered capitalism. Learn. Read. Stop parroting nonsense.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
Copyright abuse is a bipartisan issue.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
These farmers are not trying to modify their source code for these repairs. Farmers just want to be able to pull a code, replace broken sensors / actuators, and reset the codes so they can grow your food.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Crony Socialism is redundant. There is always cronyism in socialism.
When I bought my last 4x4 SUV (FJ Cruiser) part of the deal was a full set of dealer repair manuals. Most of the dealers I went to did not want to sell them to me. The one that did, and was willing to order me a vehicle to the specs I wanted not just what ever they had on the lot, got my business. While the manuals themselves ran me $600, they have paid for themselves a couple times over since I could do most of the minor work myself. Half the battle is just knowing where all the damn screws are located to get a part off. A must have if you are going to modify and work on your own vehicle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
AC repair. Dealer $160 labor, parts $350. DIY $50.
Cabin air filter Dealer $50, DIY $6.
OEM trailer hitch install $350. DIY $120.
OEM alarm. Dealer $275. DIY $0. Changed setting in ECM.
Plastic body panel replacement. Dealer $500 parts and labor. DIY $100
Seatbelt warning bell. Dealer didn't want to turn it off, claimed it was impossible. DIY $0 changed setting in ECM. Fucking priceless never having to listen to that piece of shit ding again.
Soon enough, there will be a market for softwareless, or open tractors...
There is already one company here (Hungary) trying to do something like that, albeit for different reasons.
The vast majority of repairs are mechanical in nature that are more traditional old school repairs and don't require electronic diagnostics. On a car its typically emissions related that you need to diagnose, Tractors don't have the same requirements. Things that break are typically mechanic, and fixable. Again, is silly, but lets not paint a picture that you need to take the tractor in to have the tire replaced either.
People seeking DCMA reform couldn't ask for a better ally than farmers.
Farmers are the most politically active constituency.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Just like in our business, uptime is crucially important for these farmers. During the spring planting time and the fall harvest period, if that machine breaks, it needs to be RIGHT NOW. They can't wait a "few days" for the dealership mechanic to visit. And he's busy as all hell fixing our people's shit. This isn't just a bunch hay-seeds saying they want to break their knuckles for the fun of it. This is a very serious situation that can have devastating effects on the bottom line.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
"he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues)"
I can't believe that this shit is both legal and enforceable. Ridiculous. Just to put it into perspective, pretend that this applied to your car.
-
"Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers"
Oh NOES, something that might reduce a corporation's profits??? OMG, how awful, it's an atrocity beyond words!!!
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
There were plenty of morons parroting nonsense here 15 years ago.
He did say republicrat, which is a portmanteau of Republican and Democrat...
There is no reason not to tell the driver/owner that a sensor is out or a cable unplugged and that it doesn't take a "factory service center" to fix it.
The chips and coding to provide this info to the "farmer" are trivial compared to the price of the equipment.
Ahh the bullshitting line to make it all sound scary...
Linux box and GCC and I was compiling code for several car ECM systems.
Also NOBODY needs to compile the ECM code. all they need to do is query the trouble codes to replace the failing sensor. I see you know nothing at all about engine management.. the only time I had to recompile ECM code was when I was adding a supercharger to a car that never had one, and even then it was not reprogramming it but instead adjusting the fuel/air/spark tables to handle positive boost.
AS for building an ECM... dont have to there are tons of aftermarket versions but hacking GM and Ford existing ECM's are not hard at all. hell the 7730ECM was 100% reverse engineered by us no education window lickers and are doing things with it that GM cant do.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
But ONLY if they will support a Universal Right to Repair law.
Cars and Tractors should not be special. We should have the same rights to ALL DEVICES mechanical and electronic.
Would pay more for car designed to not have a computer, abs brakes. Elow 30 mph, or automatic compensatory anything. Cars, be simple dumb machines that do what I say even if it is wrong. That way I get feedback, and know what to expect
...
Iowa farmers: Please ask the state to send all property tax bills for John Deere tractors to the "owner" (John Deere) instead of the farmer. Ask for all the state sales tax money back since there was no sale. Ask JD for the liability insurance policy number for all the tractors since they apparently own them. The possibilities are endless
Is there any real form of government that doesn't have cronyism?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
If the answer is no then the solution is simple... don't buy John Deere tractors. If they all do it, then the government needs to step in.
My cousins all have New Holland equipment for this reason. They're easy to repair, all the engine codes are published and parts are easily orderable.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms.
Have you ever tried to actually use the seat belt? It is a far better solution to that particular problem.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
You can query the codes using the standard J1939 bus on Deere. You don't know what you are talking about. You can talk to the EPA about compiling your own ECM. That isn't legal either for your car according to them.
What's bad is that cars have very stringent emissions controls, yet those are easy for regular Joes to work on these days. You can buy an OBD-II scanner for less than $100 (they have really cheap ones at Harbor Freight, probably $50), which you can plug into your car's diagnostic port and it'll tell you the codes thrown by the ECU which will generally point you to any problems you're having. If not, you can Google for those codes and quickly find out what they mean, and usually find discussion forums where other people with the same car discuss the problems they've had: usually whatever problem you're having is not unique. After you fix the problem, you can use your scanner to clear the codes. No mechanic necessary, and certainly not an expensive dealership mechanic.
Now of course, this doesn't encompass "tampering", just using the proper tools as you're supposed to. But thanks to OBD-II standardization, we're able to do much of this work ourselves using 3rd-party scan tools.
And if there's something you can't do, frequently you can buy a Chinese-made device on Ebay that's a clone of the official manufacturer diagnostic tool.
From the Goblin POV, the only true master of any object is the person who made it. They do not like the habit of witches and wizards acquiring goblin made objects and passing them from wizard to wizard by sale or by inheritance. What wizard think as the price paid to a Goblin own an object, is merely a license fee to use the object for the lifetime of the purchaser. When the wizard dies, or no longer wants to own it, the object should be returned to the Goblin who made it.
John Deere will agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
You probably wasted $600 on those manuals. These days, if your vehicle is fairly popular, you can just download the manuals for free if you look around some.
THIS is what "Preventing Repair" REALLY looks like.
Apple's Pentalobe screws are NOTHING like threatening DMCA action. Apple hasn't run-around trying to stop the manufacture and sale of Pentalobe screwdrivers, nor filed DMCA Takedown notices for iFixit and other Apple repair videos, nor attempted to stop the booming business of iPhone/iPad repair shops nor those selling repair parts.
This is WAY different, and needs to be stopped. What farmer (or homeowner) in their right mind would buy John Deere at this point?
What is this some sort of group prejudice being encouraged in a Slashdot headline? I'm sorry if I'm mistaken but has the ring of looking down on someone to me. Perhaps the tongue in cheek remark of someone from the city who thinks farmers are uneducated woodchucks.
It's been more than 15 years since I lived there but I grew up in the county seat of a county primarily based in agriculture. It is pretty typical for a farmer to have a masters or higher and rare for them to have no degree. Most farms these days are multi-million dollar a year operations with highly educated staff required to operate them. Forget your images of Green Acres. Your hot shot city executive doesn't just lack the grit, he likely isn't intelligent enough and certainly isn't well enough educated to be a farmer. Depending on which portions of agriculture you specialize in, it's best thought of as either an engineering or science field and solidly in the realm of STEM. More than that, not only is there a great deal of school required but farmers are typically multi-generation and have as much or more hands on experience when they start school as many STEM workers have toward the end of their career.
And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms.
Because it's bloody EXPENSIVE to grow indoors compared with outside. That is only a viable solution where the local climate makes growing seasons too short, or where product quality must be tightly controlled.
iii if the farmers only are "licensing" the equipment (and that is UTTER NONSENSE).
Who is responsible for the property tax on the equipment and in the case of an accident, legal liability?
Not quite, interventionism is generally a form of protectionism- a political ideology where the objective is to prevent the masses from themselves. John Deere keeps ownership of the tractors for a different reason; to force said farmers to pay them again and again for repairs. AKA capitalism to the degree where the little guy has no choice but to bow down to the 800 pound gorilla.
Yes they do, at least the next time they buy a tractor. There are other brands...
Adults vote with their feet. If the farmers are smart, this will work itself out.
"ie Democrats AND Republicans."
Are you aware you are replying to a comment pointing out that both Democrats and Republicans are the problem? Agreement in a chastising tone of correction is a bit odd.
If we had unfettered capitalism, farmers wouldn't have to fix their own tractors or pay to have them towed to a Deere dealership. A mobile service industry would spring up of mechanics who would come out to your farm, plug in to the diagnostic port, and fix most problems right there in the literal field. But why put up with the uncertainties of capitalism when you can buy socialist protection from the government?
I'm sorry, but what? How on Earth would your so called "unfettered Capitalism" work any differently than it is right at this moment for these farmers? Because it's capitalism that's keeping these farmers from fixing their own machines. It's capitalism that's devised a way to sell something to the farmers without them actually having to give up ownership of the product. It's capitalism that has paid off the politicians to pass the laws that allow the manufacturers to continue milking money from these farmers. Socialism has nothing to do with this. It's capitalism 100% that has created this situation.
Perhaps you can't read...
Republicrat
R and D are the same party... You've been lied to...
Is there any real form of government that doesn't have cronyism?
Anarchy.
As soon as two or more people band together (required for cronyism), it isn't anarchy anymore.
Why not just blacklist John Deere and buy your tractors from somebody else who doesn't pull this shit?
Or is there no alternatives, and John Deere has a monopoly on tractors worldwide or something?
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
> It's capitalism that's devised a way to sell something to the farmers without them actually having to give up ownership
Socialism could have also devised this where you replace the anonymous vendor with the state (who requires the relationship from the supplying vendor to ensure "fairness" or whatever).
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
If they actually OWN the tractor, then they should be able to repair it as required, themselves if they're capable, and no one should be allowed to tell them 'no'. If they got tricked into a 'lease' or 'rental' by unclear paperwork, hidden agreements, or any other type of obfuscation of true intent on the part of John Deere, then there should be legal remedy up to and including invalidating any 'agreements' farmers have been tricked into signing, court order(s) mandating the cease and desist of the deceptive practices, and perhaps even compensation to the farmers for lost income.
On the other hand if the farmers KNEW that they were basically renting/leasing the tractors, then I have no sympathy for them -- except that in that case they should get their lawyers to pound on John Deere for not being instantly responsive to breakdowns of the rented/leased equipment, since it's all mission-critical to the time-sensitive nature of the farmers' business.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Aren't small, independent farms more traditional than centralized agribusiness?
If you are only using the tractor on their own property, how would the company ever know that you were doing your own repairs in the first place?
Just know that you won't get any help from the manufacturer, it will totally void any warranties you might have otherwise had, and the manufacturer will probably make things difficult for you, so your expertise level might have to be somewhat higher than what would be required to repair a vehicle made, say, in the 1970's.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Natalie Portman naked and petrified. Pouring hot grits down your pants.
Anarchy is a gateway to socialism.
No, state ownership of production is communism, not socialism. Almost nobody wants that. Almost nobody knows what socialism is either except it's 'something I don't like because 'Murica'.
OK, but that's not the case here is it?
Just a tipp: If the same tractor or car model is sold in Europe, just try to buy the corresponding repair/parts manual there.
Factory service manuals are at least three times thicker than a Chilton or Haynes, and give extremely detailed information and procedures. There is literally no substitute for a real service manual if you are serious about repair work and not just a casual DIY-er.
Not even remotely what they are wanting. They want to be able to have access to the repair manuals, special tools, and software that is needed to work on the tractor, which currently all the manufacturers are keeping for themselves and refuse to sell to the public.
When I bought my last 4x4 SUV (FJ Cruiser) part of the deal was a full set of dealer repair manuals. Most of the dealers I went to did not want to sell them to me. The one that did, and was willing to order me a vehicle to the specs I wanted not just what ever they had on the lot, got my business. While the manuals themselves ran me $600, they have paid for themselves a couple times over since I could do most of the minor work myself. Half the battle is just knowing where all the damn screws are located to get a part off. A must have if you are going to modify and work on your own vehicle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
AC repair. Dealer $160 labor, parts $350. DIY $50. Cabin air filter Dealer $50, DIY $6. OEM trailer hitch install $350. DIY $120. OEM alarm. Dealer $275. DIY $0. Changed setting in ECM. Plastic body panel replacement. Dealer $500 parts and labor. DIY $100 Seatbelt warning bell. Dealer didn't want to turn it off, claimed it was impossible. DIY $0 changed setting in ECM. Fucking priceless never having to listen to that piece of shit ding again.
When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?
When you DIY the alarm system on your vehicle and it gets stolen, is your insurance company liable for the same amount of loss before you tampered with the ECM to support it?
A passenger in your vehicle was not reminded with an audible chime to put on their seatbelt, resulting in serious injury due to an accident. Could you be held liable to a further degree because of blatant tampering with a known safety feature?
Is your vehicle even still under warranty because you tampered with the ECM settings?
It's not hard to find valid reasons why you pay someone else. It's also not hard to understand why you do not fuck with components designed for safety no matter how annoying they may be. The ultimate question is what turns out to be less "cost" to you.
Yeah, I know. It's a shitty world of liability we live in.
Sure you can use our diagnostic tools. One million dollars please. Per year.
So if I can replace the operating system on my computer, table, or phone with a open source operating system, could we go along those lines. If a new operating system was developed to completely replace the operating system on the tractor, would it be legal to put it on the tractor? You would not be tampering with any of the copyright protected software, since it would just be erased and replaced with the open source software. I understand that this would not be easy and the the hardware specification are probably closely guarded. Also getting an example tractor to dig into and possibly render unworkable at least temporarily is an expense proposition. Just an idea. I am not an embedded programmer, so this is not really in my realm of expertise, but open source could revolutionize the farming industry for the farmers. The tractors would become commodities just like PCs.
Farmers should seriously consider why they would want to vote for Mike Pence, since he has been a staunch receiver of campaign contributions from tractor manufacturers and others championing the DCMA.
But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
So Tesla has no problem with me fiddling around with the software that runs Autopilot? I don't mean installing an update they send, I mean reverse engineering the code and attempting to make it do something different.
using DMCA to enforce a repair monopoly is indefensible, but be careful what you wish for by allowing anyone to mod their own software. There are millions of diesel Mercedes owners who will want to "performance mod" their cars rather than allow them to be fixed to comply with pollution control laws; and don't even think about the implications of modding the software for your self driving car.
There's repair and then there's hacking. Suppose the "breakdown" is that the ass-on-seat sensor is broken, and the "fix" is to let the tractor run anyway. When the tractor runs over it's operator, the operator gets dead, but who gets sued?
According to John Deere you can't own a tractor here either, but they still expect you to pay them for it. Ever since the DMCA put the legal framework in place, large corporations have been in a frenzy stealing away ownership of the things we buy (or even already have) and converting private ownership to a licensing model. Tractors are just the latest but we've already seen it with cars, books, movies, music, software, and even housing, food, and water. The CEO of Nestle has been talking up the notion that his company should own the air and people should have to pay an ongoing fee to use it.
Due to human and animal behavior, all systems are 100% guaranteed to go crony ...as quickly as we let them.
Oh, just shut up already, you whiny liberal bitches. This is the free market we're talking about here. You can't just call for the government to step in a regulate a sacred thing like that. What you should have done is shopped more carefully. If you wanted a piece of equipment you could service yourself, that's what you should have bought. The invisible hand can fix all ills. Shame on you for not wielding it more responsibly.
/s
If we had unfettered capitalism, farmers wouldn't have to fix their own tractors or pay to have them towed to a Deere dealership. A mobile service industry would spring up of mechanics who would come out to your farm, plug in to the diagnostic port, and fix most problems right there in the literal field. But why put up with the uncertainties of capitalism when you can buy socialist protection from the government?
I'm sorry, but what? How on Earth would your so called "unfettered Capitalism" work any differently than it is right at this moment for these farmers? Because it's capitalism that's keeping these farmers from fixing their own machines. It's capitalism that's devised a way to sell something to the farmers without them actually having to give up ownership of the product. It's capitalism that has paid off the politicians to pass the laws that allow the manufacturers to continue milking money from these farmers. Socialism has nothing to do with this. It's capitalism 100% that has created this situation.
No, Applehu Akbar had it right.
This isn't unfettered capitalism, this is corporate capitalism: a "free or mixed-market economy characterized by the dominance of hierarchical, bureaucratic corporations." (see see Wikipedia's article). The laws are written in a way that mostly benefits the corporations and largest businesses - they're being given protection from the upstarts that would swing in and provide cheaper/better/faster solutions by the government.
Wrong. When there are no brands that offer "fix it yourself" tractors, where are these smart farmers supposed to go? Abstain in protest and hope the manufacturers budge before they (the farmers) go under? This can only "work itself out" if there is proper competition in the marketplace.
The DMCA in this case is stifling competition by enforcing a legal fiction of "No user serviceable parts inside". Remove that roadblock, and other entities (diagnostic tool makers, etc.) are free to reverse-engineer the status codes and introduce competition in the servicing of these tractors. Then the market can work itself out. This is a case of a government-enforced monopoly artificially distorting the market. Free-market economics can absolutely fix this situation, and is exactly what the farmers are asking for. And this market (tractor service) has traditionally been free prior to this DMCA nonsense.
Copyrights were never intended to prevent someone from fixing a piece of equipment that they own, be it a tractor or a car. And make no mistake, auto manufacturers are heading this direction as fast as they possibly can, which is why us non-farmers should pay attention to this issue.
No. Anarchy is the gateway to not giving a shit about anything except your personal interests.
Socialism has and always will be doomed from the get go.
Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
Dmca wasn't all bad. Youtube couldn't exist without it.
Bullshit.
" Crony Socialism is redundant. There is always cronyism in socialism. "
I guess, if you mean like there's always cronyism in capitalism, but it doesn't say much.
Did Clinton have a choice? I think it was too well supported for him to veto even if he wanted to. IIRC, the DMCA was unanimously voted for in the Senate. Voice vote (which is massive bullshit) in the House of course.
Oh, you mean like that "Voice Vote" at the Rep. Convention yesterday? "Ayes?" (Incomprehensible din as a Bunch of people shout, with booing and "USA" being shouted along with some "Ayes")
"Nays?" (EXACT SAME Incomprehensible din as a Bunch of people shout, with booing and "Never Trump!) being shouted along with some "Nays")
"The Ayes have it" says the Chair, and walks off stage.
He did say republicrat, which is a portmanteau of Republican and Democrat...
Portamenteau? Isn't that those slimy little red things they stuff into green olives?
So their motivation is no longer to make a good, durable product, but one that is incredibly complicated, delicate, and expensive (aka, a Porche or Ferrari), requiring frequent repairs that can only be done by them (a monopoly with DMCA teeth).
Yes, some of the remaining big farmers (some of which have Park Place residences) are assholes, but they have suppliers that are a perfect match.
My first brother-in-law was in a car accident. Because he was NOT wearing his seat belt at the time, he was thrown about the cabinet but walked away from the accident. The driver seat and area was destroyed and, had he worn his seltbelt, he would have been killed in the accident. One news story, when seat belt were coming into cars, stated that in 98% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will save a life but in 2% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will kill a life. People get to choose--even if it is illegal. (Now, in the case of my first brother-in-law, a worn seltbelt might have saved his spouse and children a whole lot of pain.)
engine software be protected from tampering.
put it on EEPROM.
The software can be made such that it outputs diagnostic codes/messages pinpointing the exact cause.
Simpler than that. Either use a protected bootloader written into the microcontroller itself,and signed binaries; or simply flip the 'Protection" bit found in ALL microcontrollers after they flash it with the engine controller code.
If socialism is bad because *everyone owns everything* How is it better when *nobody owns anything* ?
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Google is your friend. $6 for an cabin air filter is common. Major online car parts have them. Major online places have sales, loss-leaders, freebies, etc. I can buy them for Free with "Amazon Points"-type purchases. Personally, I used the higher-rated (HEPA?) filters and they are less than half the price than the dealer sells them.
dealer only service even an HOA can't do that. HOA's can't block you from getting dish or directv. They can't say you must use our HVAC that costs a lot more then other local shops.
Copyrights were never intended to prevent someone from fixing a piece of equipment that they own, be it a tractor or a car.
On that, we wholeheartedly agree!
But John Deere is using an unholy alliance of the DMCA (which is evil incarnate) and an EPA mandate (which are generally evil) that "engine control code must be unmodifiable by the end-user" to construct this legal fiction that the entire TRACTOR is "Licensed not Sold".
Someone needs to test this in Court. I believe the Doctrine of FIrst Sale should prevail.
No, Applehu Akbar had it right.
This isn't unfettered capitalism, this is corporate capitalism: a "free or mixed-market economy characterized by the dominance of hierarchical, bureaucratic corporations." (see see Wikipedia's article). The laws are written in a way that mostly benefits the corporations and largest businesses - they're being given protection from the upstarts that would swing in and provide cheaper/better/faster solutions by the government.
I think you're deluding yourself in thinking that in this so called "unfettered capitalism" that there would be some sort of magical competition to John Deere that can't exist now. There is no government restriction preventing another tractor company from coming along and selling open sourced tractors to the farmers. What is preventing competition is capitalism.
The laws are written in a way that mostly benefits the corporations and largest businesses - they're being given protection from the upstarts that would swing in and provide cheaper/better/faster solutions by the government.
How? Give me an example of how the government is preventing someone new from competing in the tractor business. Because I've started more than one business, and the government barriers amount to about $50 of registration fees and 20 minutes registering the business online. The far bigger barriers are that John Deere has immense brand recognition, distribution and maintenance infrastructure, manufacturing facilities, and who knows how many other advantages that have nothing to do with the government but mean any competitor is going to have to be extraordinarily well funded to make a solid attempt at disruption.
The natural state of a market is that entrenched players have a massive advantage, and can use that massive advantage to keep any competitors from becoming a threat. When you're talking about manufacturing heavy machinery, this isn't something where any schmo off the street can just start selling tractors without licensing BS. The barriers that exist to competing in this industry have nothing to do with government.
This is the sort of thing that prompted Open Source Ecology's open-source hardware - the vital machines of civilization, built from collaboratively updated open source blueprints, made to a modular design from off-the-shelf parts. Know FreeCAD? Welding? You can make a tractor. I've seen one of the initial prototypes, and it was doing the job.
http://opensourceecology.org/g...
https://www.ted.com/talks/marc...
Their current push is open-source homebuilding, but it builds on all of the machines they've made. https://www.kickstarter.com/pr...
In my estimation, this is one of the most important open source projects of all time. This stuff is maintainable and built without planned obsolescence. We need that kind of freedom at the base of civilization.
You work for John Deere, right? Or GM? Or Ford? Or Sony? Or some other manufacturer? Life is one uncontainable RISK. Buying and using a manufacturer's manual is proof of intent to provide a risk-free installation–that's the best the manufacturer & rep can do. You are covered legally because of your proven intent. And, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Remember there was a time when there was NO chiming on seltbelts. Plus, in my state, it is the responsibility of the passenger to use the provided seltbelt--lack of a beep is ignorance of the law. Gosh, it must be hard to be so young and so unrelated?
My 2014 has methods of changing the ECM in the owner's manual. Not all of them but being a computer geek, they are easy to figure out and to reset. Boo on you!
Then dont buy your next tractor on those terms.
It's even cheaper than that. I bought a bluetooth OBDII scanner on Amazon for $12 which I connect to with an app on my phone.
The problem here is that people conflate capitalism with free market. You are correct that it is not socialism that is causing this. It is socialism's brother. fascism that is doing this. In either case, it has nothing to do with capitalism as most people understand the term. Most people consider the terms "free market economy" and "capitalism" to be synonyms, not realizing that "capitalism" is Karl Marx's term for a straw man economic system that does not exist.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Socialism is state ownership. Communism is the lack of a state.
These smug morons don't even know what they're talking about.
Soviet propaganda always talked about "building communism". They freely admitted that they hadn't gotten there yet.
In this case, natural economy activity is being prevented by a law that was distorted beyond it's original purpose.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
> How? Give me an example of how the government is preventing someone new from competing in the tractor business.
The original article is an example, you stupid jackass.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
the beeping is telling you that you're doing it wrong.
box on the front passenger seat means that the front passenger seat's airbag is activated. if you get into an accident, that's an extra airbag you'll need to replace.
the point is --- the seatbelt warning is not the only issue you're having
Intellectual property allows you to steal other people's stuff. The most obvious example is a patent that not only grants you exclusive ownership of your own invention but the right to claim ownership of anything similar regardless of how that invention may have come about.
Treating creative works as property allows people (usually robber barons) to hijack other people's creative works and real property.
And again, we have an example of that right here and now.
The intellectual property fiction is preventing the farmer from fully controlling his own personal property (by way of the tractor).
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Monarchy, Patriarchy, Tyranny, or any other form of government in which the dictator has absolute power, is not conducive to cronyism. Some individuals or companies can be favored but that is subject to change at any moment if they displease. A benevolent ruler, who is trained from childhood with that expectation, can be the best form of government. But, according to Plato, inevitably leads to oliogarchy (cronyism in spades).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
This "unfettered capitalism" requires federal law in order to work.
It is quite "fettered". It's "fettered" by copyright law. Otherwise, the farmer could fix his tractor by himself or some independent contractor could do it for him.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It's not unfettered capitalism, but government regulations designed to squelch competition that are causing thus problem. Because of the DMCA -- a federal law -- nobody can _legally_ reverse engineer the electronics in the tractor, and thus allow independent mechanics the ability to fix them. Once again, federal regulations act as protectionism for those firms that can financially convince a bunch of congresspeople to play ball.
99% of farmers repair their own equipment and the FEDS do not want the emission systems bypassed. So the software is locked down tight with a manufacture only access to kill any aftermarket fixes that increase emissions. Ask the EPA and DC.
How? Give me an example of how the government is preventing someone new from competing in the tractor business.
The laws aren't preventing someone from starting a tractor manufacturing business, though we could veer off and talk about regulatory capture and speculate that any new business that John Deere can't prevent legally will simply be purchased by them before it becomes too big.
But I challenge you to start a tractor repair business that specializes in late-model John Deer tractors. You may technically start one and hang out your shingle, but you won't be able to execute any meaningful repairs without running afoul of the DMCA. As you might read from the article, John Deere has taken advantage of the law to squelch competition in the very lucrative repair business for their equipment.
But hey, if there's nothing stopping you as you say, you should give it a try. Quit your day job, start your John Deer tractor repair business, and get back to me in six months and tell me how you're doing. If you're correct you'll be filthy rich with farmers throughout the nation clamoring for your services.
That's an excellent example, and a brilliant sig line, but how do we free ourselves of this condition?
I would would love to leverage a means to liberate us from these robber barons.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
It's specifically illegal for banks, who invented it.
davecb@spamcop.net
There is already precedent set for that. Nobody gets sued because the circumvention is at fault. Someone would have to prove that the machine was unsafe even with the sensor, or that there was a manufacturing defect that caused a problem with some other unrelated failsafe.
There is some line between where the manufacturer has responsibility and the operator has responsibility. And while you can open a civil case over nearly anything in the US, winning is another matter.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
The problem here is that people conflate capitalism with free market. You are correct that it is not socialism that is causing this. It is socialism's brother. fascism that is doing this.
In either case, it has nothing to do with capitalism as most people understand the term. Most people consider the terms "free market economy" and "capitalism" to be synonyms, not realizing that "capitalism" is Karl Marx's term for a straw man economic system that does not exist.
First let me address the Karl Marx part. He did not coin the term, it was around before his work. And if I am reading you correctly, capitalism certainly does exist. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by that if I read you wrong.
As for "free market economy" and "capitalism" not being synonymous. Capitalism emerges from the idea of a free market economy. The idea of a free market economy can't even exist on it's own.
Lastly, the connection between fascism and socialism only really exists in the heads of people who don't understand either. You can just as easily say capitalism leads to fascism and have it make just as much sense.
3rd party hardware people should jump on that bandwagon. There isn't all that much to an ECU, the simplest way to overcome Deere's stupidity will be by ditching their ECU modules and replacing them with 3rd party drop-in replacements. There's plenty of vendors out there that could offer such products, the main reason they didn't jump on it yet is that Deere can stop being stupid at any time, making the 3rd party efforts worth quite a bit less. OTOH, farmers may be jaded enough that even if Deere reversed on their IP retardiness, they perhaps would stick with a 3rd party solution.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
The guys with this problem don't grow my food, they grow my food's food. These farmers do huge corn and soy bean fields. Most of their production goes into cattle, hog, and chicken feed. Some of it goes into fuel ethanol production.
Uh no, in an actual true communist society, there would be no state, as it would have withered away. It is an utopia, but the core idea is that when all means of production are shared, there will be no need for a government to keep corporations and so on in check.
It's about as realistic as the libertarian vision of the 100% free market, but there you have it.
Eat the rich.
Socialism is state ownership. Communism is the lack of a state.
Unfortunately, most people (especially in the US) think socialism means "anything I don't like" and communism means "very dangerous!", and that's about as far as they care to think about it.
Eat the rich.
There is no government restriction preventing another tractor company from coming along
but there are! The government restrictions are preventing independent maintenance people from providing service to those tractors. They can't compete with the dealer to fix the tractors because the law (specifically the DMCA) says they can't. it doesn't matter if they want to setup their own shop to compete or not, they aren't allowed to.
It's not unfettered capitalism, but government regulations designed to squelch competition that are causing thus problem. Because of the DMCA -- a federal law -- nobody can _legally_ reverse engineer the electronics in the tractor, and thus allow independent mechanics the ability to fix them. Once again, federal regulations act as protectionism for those firms that can financially convince a bunch of congresspeople to play ball.
I don't generally disagree. This is an example of the breakdown of the government's role in an economy. But I doubt the idea that there is some form of capitalism that will prevent such things. Any system which results in the ultimate elimination of competition will lead to such outcomes.
Instead of pimping free market ideas as the solution to this sort of problem, we should be talking about better political systems that will better guard the government's role in maintaining a stable and fair economy.
Yes he had a choice you fool. Take a stand, speak up, make your reservations heard by the people and garner support; manufacture opposition. Its not like he didn't have a thousand news outlets hanging on every word. He was the president.
The other choice was to take money from the business interests, screw the people, and toe the line that our elected officials always do, namely voting as a block for laws that infringe on the rights of citizens.
Easy choice for the would-be aristocrats. They know who supports them monetarily and they know that they can get so much more back than just votes from them. And, unlike the electorate, business and corporate interests will hold them accountable for their actions.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Dude, have you never ever heard of people working on their fucking cars? Are you that stupid, or do you just play one on Slashdot? WTF?!
The ECM settings that can be changed without breaking the warranty are the ones that are there to be changed to begin with, pretty much. You really must have not ever worked on your own car using factory software. I've been working on my Volvos for more than a decade now and no, the factory software doesn't let you change the engine tune, or really do anything but what the dealer might be willing to do if you ask them. Yes, even the fucking dealer sometimes has advisors or techs stubborn or not giving a fuck enough not to bother changing settings (at an hourly rate!) that the fucking factory documentation advises specifically are changeable per user preferences. These settings are hidden only to route some more business to the dealer, BTW, there's no technical reason why they shouldn't be exposed to the user.
The seatbelt chimes as they are implemented in most cars on US market are useless. Either give me Swedish system where the chime is ON until you put the damn seatbelts on, or give me no fucking chime. In the US you normally have a chime that'll bother you for a few seconds then turn off no matter what you do. Worse yet, if your order of operations is start the car then put the belts on, as plenty of people do, the stupid chime will always beep at you for no reason other than some designer's stupidity.
The "shitty world of liability" is the one you live in. It's all in your head, a made-up problem. My close family is a bunch of litigation lawyers and even they aren't as risk averse as you seem to be.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
You know absolute nothing at all about cars. The EPA has nothing to do with privately modified vehicles.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I suspect it's more likely that in a few decades tractors won't need farmers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Prof. Benardo De La Paz refers to a system called rational anarchy.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
When there are no brands that offer "fix it yourself" tractors, where are these smart farmers supposed to go?
According to another poster in this thread, New Holland tractors have all their repair manuals easily available to customer and spare parts too.
You need to go read about the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.
Repeal the DMCA (and similar laws). You might also have to terminate some international contracts that require laws like the DMCA, although I'm not sure about the details (and don't want to spend an hour googling right now).
C - the footgun of programming languages
Sure, you *could* start a tractor business but those tractors would be covered by the DMCA as well. So anyone buying your tractors wouldn't be able to fix them via 3rd party or themselves. Maybe you could make all the specs open and allow the use of diagnostic tools you, as the manufacturer, created but I would be willing to bet the established companies would get their favorite politicians to screw you in some fashion.
I'm sorry, but what? How on Earth would your so called "unfettered Capitalism" work any differently than it is right at this moment for these farmers?
Because what we have in this case isn't unfettered at all. The fetter in this case is Copyright + DMCA - government-implemented mandates that provide protection to corporations from ... unfettered capitalism (that is, from a system in which they would have to compete).
John Deere may be capitalists, but the government has provided them an advantage in the market, an unfair advantage to individuals and small businesses that want to compete to repair tractors. They can bring the full might of the government (and its monopoly on violence to enforce rules) on anyone that tries to compete with them in that space.
It's capitalism 100% that has created this situation.
Nope. It's government regulation. Without that, it would be no time before some enterprising person / company reverse-engineer the diagnostics / control system / whatever in the Deere trackers and started offering repair services, just like in the GP's example. How you don't see that can only be attributed to myopia.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
It is exactly unfettered capitalism. It is a known and predictable consequence of it. Stop being an apologist just because your precious system is being shown to be as full of flaws as thinking people have always known it to be.
Every system people create is full of flaws, as are the people that created it. It's still the best one available for producing prosperity among the most number of people. In this case, government regulation has created a protectionist system for a rent-seeking corporation. That's fixable, and the best way is less government intervention, not more.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I don't agree with John Deere's stance... but here's another thought to consider...
I work for a major car company and was recently having a conversation with our of tech instructors.
He was at a (3rd party) body shop the other day and witnessed their service guy replacing a windshield on one of our brand of vehicles. Soon after, it was rolled out for a waiting customer.
Our instructor asked, "is that car all done?". The service manager said "yes".
"Have you done the camera calibration for the safety system's automatic braking that's required after windshield replacement.".
The manager wasn't aware of the requirement, let alone how to do it.
Now, imagine if the customer got into an accident because their safety system didn't brake properly. Who would the customer blame?
Point: With vehicle systems becoming so complex, I can understand why John Deere is trying to restrict (albeit, it seems too restrictive in my opinion). Finding a balance on what can be touched/cannot be touched can be a fine line.
I had to scroll down way too far to find a post like this. While "nobody ever got fired" for buying a Deere, there are other combines out there. I found Agco first. You might be the odd man out at first, but if Deere is pissing you off that much, it looks like maybe not all equipment manufacturers are being dicks. My first thought was "Will overseas equipment makers please pick up the white courtesy phone".
Change takes time, but it can happen. I remember when nobody drove foreign cars and we made fun of Toyota drivers. For big ticket items like cars and tractors, it takes time; but if you make shit or treat people badly your business will suffer. Stop treating people badly while you still have a chance, Deere.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
The key word is the first word. It's used to introduce a hypothetical situation which has not happened yet, like "when I grow wings".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yep. Got a small old(1958) Fordson utility tractor which broke a ring. I'm pulling out the engine and doing a complete rebuild. Now I know why I can still get a complete rebuild kit for my old tractor. Buying a new tractor is just not an option anymore. Thanks for the warning about that. The way my old tractor was overbuilt, I expect it'll last another 60 years after the engine rebuild... :-)
Enforcing that is your choice as a corporation. You don't have to design proprietary, closed equipment and then prosecute those who try to repair it themselves. As evidenced by the fact that there are manufacturers out there that design open, accessible products that are user-friendly and easy to service.
FTFA:
[Emphasis mine]. This is BS. John Deere is lying to their dealers by sending a letter like this. When you own a book, you can absolutely modify it all you want. You can highlight stuff, black stuff out, rip out pages, re-write passages and stuff the new pages in there. That's all part of First Sale doctrine. Copyright does NOT prevent you from doing those things, but John Deere is claiming it does (as far as their tractor software goes).
What they are relying on (solely) is the DMCA, which bans access to the software (with ANY "protection").
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
My point is not that competing with John Deere would be easy - it is hard, but not mainly because of anything the government is doing. Sure, the DMCA is shitty, but if it didn't exist John Deere could still design proprietary, closed systems and refuse to sell repair manuals or spare parts. There are lots of corporations out there engaging in similar anti-competitive behavior. What is really needed is better consumer protections that ensure a user's right to modify and repair their belongings regardless of what the corporation wants them to do.
>> differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
Try taking your European premium car to an independent. None of them have access to the diagnostic tools or software that the dealers have, that in some cases are necessary for even basic tasks that in any way involve the ECU.
The hell are you talking about? Try reading comprehension. The government doesn't prevent anybody from creating a competing business (as evidenced by the fact that there are, in fact, many competitors to John Deere, some of which treat their customers well and make their equipment easy to service). If the government is responsible for anything here, it's that it has failed to hold unethical companies accountable for anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices.
So you're in favor of a system without copyright laws?
Hi. I'm robert deniro and I'm here to fix your air conditioner.
It's freakin food, why wouldn't you want tightly controlled quality?
I mean "Tightly controlled", like "each tomato shall be between 4.05 and 5.25 inches in diameter".
No, if the DMCA did not exist, open-market service people couldn't be hauled into court for hacking around whatever DRM Deere were to put on its tractors.
I bear my trolls with great pride. It shows that people care about what I say. If their ideology just doesn't allow them to understand why a governmental restriction on allowing farmers to fix, or to have fixed, their tractors, restricts competition then they will never figure out why there isn't any food or toilet paper in Venezuela.
You can always get an older car. I drive one and I like it. My car has no computers and pretty much any mechanic can repair it (I can repair some problems myself, but am limited by the fact that I do not have a garage with a pit or a lift, I also do not know how to weld)..
I've turned off the seatbelt warning for my passenger seat as well. My fiancee somehow manages to trigger it to lock up on a regular basis and has to momentarily release the belt to get it to unlock. That alarm going off is quite annoying in such a case.
You got the service manuals, great. Now what about the special programming tools for your ECU?
I've got a Mitsubishi Lancer and it's a total PITA to get the TPMS programmed. It's 90 minutes to the local dealership and half the time they forget to reprogram the system after installing my summer or winter wheels. You can order the required MUT-III toolkit from the official supplier and do it yourself, but it's $8,000.
Due to human and animal behavior, all systems are 100% guaranteed to go crony ...as quickly as we let them.
Who's "we?" Oh, right... you and your cronies.
No, if the DMCA did not exist, open-market service people couldn't be hauled into court for hacking around whatever DRM Deere were to put on its tractors.
The DMCA doesn't help things, certainly, but nothing is forcing John Deere to abuse the laws and their customers this way. Plenty of unethical corporate behavior can happen even if there isn't a convenient legal framework to take advantage of. My main point is this: a specific piece of law might be contributing to this problem, but that doesn't mean that the solution is deregulation. We've already got a corporation that has demonstrated it will prioritize profit over its customers, and removing regulations, many of which involve consumer protections, isn't the solution. Instead, we need legislation in favor of the consumer, to protect their rights to do what they wish with equipment that they own.
Of course, repealing the DMCA would be a welcome step as well.
Unfettered capitalism has not concept of patents, copyright or even corporation.
My point is not that competing with John Deere would be easy - it is hard, but not mainly because of anything the government is doing.
I think you missed the point of the article. Competing with John Deere is ILLEGAL due to the way they've taken refuge under the DMCA.
People could reverse-engineer the parts and mechanisms and figure out how to fix the tractors themselves, no manuals needed. My Saab 9-3 never had any jouneyman's manuals printed because the manufacturer didn't allow it, but GM didn't wield the DMCA like a club to prevent any kind of repairs — so there is still a thriving market. The same cannot be said for John Deere or their tractors.
I still have an image of a notice on the outside of the original Windows 3.1 package that reads "Notice to User: By breaking the seal of this envelope, you accept the terms of the enclosed license agreement."
Translation: "We can't be as profitable if we can't fleece customers."
Table-ized A.I.
You're referring to anarchy the state (as in no government), not anarchy as a form of government focusing on the economic system. There are actually anarchy forms of government such as anarcho-syndicalism, individualist anarchism, and platformism. Anarchism in this sense refers to the government, but the economic system runs by other rules. Think of it this way - if you and your neighbors all agree to where each one lives and what laws to live by and even who polices those laws, do you need a government? The people are the government. It is really extreme Libertarianism. A true democracy could run in an anarchic state. Furthermore, a true "individualist anarchy" may not give a shit if you shoot your neighbor, but a platformist would, so anarchy in this sense does not necessarily mean society without any rules.
I like to use the Monty Python and the Holy Grail example of the "anarcho-syndicalist commune." That one has the workers organized into syndicates (unions, basically) by industry and the "government" exists to ensure private ownership of land. They reject the "worker-state" (government-economic) idea of communism, saying that tying those two together leads to corruption (and frankly, I agree with them on that point). Put another way, if the farm syndicate ruled the government, would not the farm syndicate try to make everything as favorable to farmers as possible? They would be fools not to, but in doing so prove that power corrupts.
When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?
If you cook a plate of food and someone spills it on themselves and gets burned, can you be held liable because it wasn't made by a certified chef?
John Deere isn't stopping you from fixing your own tractor because they're worried about your well being in case you might be held liable for some accident. They're doing it so that they can rip you off. Any manufacturer of machinery, of any kind, would drool over this kind of captive audience. Dishwasher breaks down? It's not really yours, so you must pay the Maytag guy whatever he asks to fix it. Upgrade that video card? Dell sues you for not paying them to do it. After all, you could electrocute yourself. And now it's time to upgrade that PC to Windows 10, it's not like you have a choice here...
If this you-don't-really-own-it mentality spreads it would lead to some kind of hideous distopia. Luckily most manufacturers can't get away with it without losing their customers. Yet.
The DMCA isn't good, but there are lots of farm equipment manufacturers, auto companies, etc that don't sue their customers. The difference between Saab and John Deere in this case is that John Deere is going out of its way to behave in an unethical manner and screw its customers over.
What I'm really arguing against is this subtle subtext that says John Deere's actions are the fault of the government, and that if only the government wasn't around this kind of crap wouldn't be happening. A long history of anti-competitive, anti-consumer behavior by corporations that think they can get away with it says otherwise. Repeal the DMCA, but also create legislation protecting the consumer's right to repair, modify, sell, and otherwise control equipment that they legally purchased.
Actually, that need further refinement - socialism is only state ownership in the communist form of government. Socialism as its own doctrine refers to the economic system where the workers own the factory and not a factory owner (the proletariat owning vs the bourgeoisie owning in Marxist theory). In Marx's version of communism (which is good enough for this argument), the socialist workers give excess production to the state for distribution and eliminate money. This means socialism inextricable from communism but communism is not inextricable from socialism. Put another way, a raven is a bird, but not all birds are ravens.
If you are disabling the DPF on your car the EPA cares. There are a lot of things the EPA cares about, but can't enforce. You can't legally modify certain things on your car and drive it around, technically. You are probably one of those idiots who thinks "derp, I can do anything, I bought it!" But no, you can't. You won't get caught though, unless you fail an emissions test. But you are probably in one of those backward states that doesn't even require that.
Yeah, and I consider it about as likely, that's why I brought up New Holland. I also hear Kubota stuff is great.
So basically, it appears we have a situation somewhat similar to OSes: there's one really crappy but very popular OS which advertises to you now, and there's two others which don't, so the people using the first one bitch and complain about the spying and advertising, but keep buying it anyway and say stuff like "when all OSes advertise to you..." even though there's no evidence that the alternatives are going to do that.
And your point is....?
I'm not talking about Chilton and Hayes, I'm talking about factory service manuals. You can download them online, just like you can download Game of Thrones and just about anything else.
I just installed a trailer hitch probably 7 or 8 months ago, and I had to remove the back bumper! Of course, this was a TorkLift stealth "EcoHitch" which was hidden up inside the bumper, unlike those Curt hitches that hang underneath the muffler. It was a bit of a job to install it. However the manufacturer helpfully included detailed instructions with pictures (which looked like they were copied from the factory service manual, which I have a copy of) showing how to install it.
But yeah, you're right: most of that stuff is simple. Usually you can google it and find a discussion forum or a YouTube video showing exactly how to do it. If you need a factory manual to change an air filter, you've got issues.
So you're in favor of a system without copyright laws?
I said nothing about what I'm "in favor" of or not. I expressed no opinion, only facts.
However, since you asked, I'll expound on what (in my opinion) I see as how copyright can be used productively, in the modern age, and actually be used for it's purpose as stated in the Constitution (that is, "... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts"). First, it should be significantly shorter. Lifetime of the author is a new innovation, and quite long enough. +70 years is far too long. 95 years for works-for-hire seems too long as well. 50 years seems more than reasonable. Some would want more, some less. The length is debatable, and, more importantly should be debated
Are there still countries where foreign copyrights are not honored at all? The US was one of those countries when it was first formed, but of course it no longer is. What would it be like if we abandoned copyright completely? Of course, there are many that claim that no books or music or stories or art would be created. That's a bogus argument. Artists will always create what they want - they did long before "copyright" was invented. They had patrons that sponsored their work (similar to the way research grants support much of pure science today).
Another idea would be to only allow individuals to be granted copyrights, but not corporations or "works for hire". That would probably eliminate most of the big movies and TV shows created by Hollywood and media conglomerates. I'm not so sure that's a bad thing, but it would certainly create a major backlash, as well as chaos in multiple financial markets (what else does the US export these days??).
What we currently have is a lot of laws on top of copyright, intended to enforce the copyright rules for large / wealthy copyright holders. Let's be clear: The DMCA really only works well for large / wealth copyright holders, mostly corporations. There are multiple problems with this. Note, to start with, that copyright infringement is not and never has been a crime. It's a tort. Meaning, if someone wants to protect their copyright, they must file suit in civil court to do so. There is no criminal court, there are no law enforcement involved, there is no criminal investigation. What the DMCA and other recent "innovations" in copyright enforcement has done is to shift the burden of enforcement from the beneficiaries of copyright to the public (through taxation and use of law enforcement resources). That significantly shifts the costs and the power dynamic of the entire system. The FBI does NOT pursue cases of infringement for Joe J. Writer, who sells his novel online but keeps seeing people sharing his work without his permission. But these days the DO pursue cases for Disney and Viacom for people doing the exact same thing for their work. And this in a system where Joe J. Writer cannot afford his own investigators and lawyers to pursue lawsuits, but Disney and Viacom absolutely CAN.
I don't have any specific recommendations on whether a system without copyright laws can work. But I do know that the current copyright laws, and all the other laws and ways they are currently enforced, is not working.
Does that answer your question?
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I kinda get the impression that most people here on slashdot have no clue about how much land is used for growing food. The notion that all food production could be moved indoors is laughable.
Have any of you actually seen a farm? A real farm that grows food on thousands and thousands of acres?
Does that answer your question?
Yes, quite thoroughly. Thanks for elaborating. I have to say I agree with everything you wrote.
Have you ever actually seen a vehicle after crashing hard enough to have the airbag is deployed?. The least of your worries is replacing the airbag. Generally if it's hard enough to deploy the airbag its pretty much totaled.
YES! Or a backpack, or a dog, etc.
And yes the piece of plastic that the dealer wanted 4 hours of labor and $250 for the piece of plastic. Found it on a different dealer's site for $100, spent 20 minutes installing it myself.
Yes and no. FJ Cruisers went through a minor structural redesign and an engine swap after 2009. Couldn't find any PDFs anywhere for my 2011 at the time. Besides I'm an old school aircraft mechanic. I like having the books in front of me. I detested trying to use rugged laptops while doing maintenance. B1-B, B52H, B2-A, HH-53, KC-135 (Air Force).
3 times thicker? Hardly try 4, and there are three books that size covering absolutely everything you need to completely break down any portion of the vehicle so you can work on it.
5 years ago when I bought it, you could not find the manuals anywhere. Only for the older versions of the FJ. Completely useless when working on 2010 and on.
5 years after the fact sure there are a dozen videos on YouTube and plenty of forum posts that will walk you through it, but that wasn't the case at the time.
If you aren't retarded then liability is not an issue.
Look around on Amazon. Picked up a techstream OEM plug and some 3rd party software for $30. Be wary of the software as I've heard some have some garbage mixed in. Easy peasy making changes for various settings.
Yeah the cabin air filter is dead simple to replace. Again if you know where to find it. Ask around, 97% of the population doesn't even they exist, much less where to find it, and how to replace it. Which is why the dealers can rip people off charging $40-$60 to replace them. Yes I used to work on half a billion dollar aircraft for the Air Force, but that means jack squat when you are digging around under the hood looking for the GD cabin air filter, not knowing that it was behind the glove box the whole time.
Digging into engine controls and some of the modern handling driver assist stuff is much more so, but the basic ECM settings for everything else is dead simple. Everything on a modern car is hooked up to them, even the dome lights, and then all can be modified through some pretty easy check box settings.
The unfettered capitalism brought about the government that passes the laws to stifle competition. Capitalists use their capital to get favourable laws passed and sympathetic politicians into office.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
On the flip side, it was government intervention that forced the automobile manufacturers to play nice with the independent repair shops and after market parts manufacturers. Even the fact that my OBD II reader will mostly work on most any (sold in N. American, not sure about other markets) car built from the mid '90's on is due to government intervention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
With a lot of vehicles, you can just go to YouTube these days for simple stuff like that. Everyone and his brother now has YT videos for car repairs.
Actually you could not compete with John Deere, Simply because of Copyright and Patent law. Both of which give John Deere a very powerful position where you can't just create your own combine harvester. If you need a fully optimised design, and the most optimal design is under patent. You will never beat them no matter what you manage to come up with on your own. Because their design is more optimal.
Dmca wasn't all bad. Youtube couldn't exist without it.
Is that worth it?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I see more Kubota dealers around Texas than Deere.
Kubota makes stuff for hobby farms. They deal in small to mid-sized equipment, not the industrial scale stuff. People that are managing 1,000+ acre farms aren't buying Kubota.
On the flip side, it was government intervention that forced the automobile manufacturers to play nice with the independent repair shops and after market parts manufacturers. Even the fact that my OBD II reader will mostly work on most any (sold in N. American, not sure about other markets) car built from the mid '90's on is due to government intervention.
Only so they could monitor the mandated emissions controls that manufacturers were required to add to cars in the first place. It had nothing to do with wanting to help you diagnose your car - just the emissions controls. So it was a solution to help fix something that was only broken because of the initial government mandate. Still, they did get that "solution" right. Gotta give them credit for that, especially since most of the "solutions" government creates cause more problems than the ones they are intended to resolve.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Yeah, it might be hard to figure out how to obtain parts overnight
We're not talking about some oil filters and basic supplies you can get from Amazon here. You're thinking like a hobby farmer. The internet is helpful but there are times when you need a proper technician or factory parts which aren't sold direct and that means a factory dealer.
I run a manufacturing company and the big tools we buy cannot be bought off Amazon or anywhere else on the net. Neither can the replacement parts aside from a few consumables. We have to go through the manufacturer or one of their dealers. A cheap one of the presses we buy will start at half a million dollars and go up from there. Farms are no different for the big equipment. The dollar amounts are too large to involve a middle man.
There's a lot programmers, sysadmins, and other high-tech people could learn from those who are used to organizing politically for shared ends. Political advocacy is not one of the poorer high-tech person's strengths. There's a streak of undeserved independence in high-tech that doesn't reflect how much people have to work together explicitly for political ends, not dismissing politics as undesirable, unnecessary, or unimportant as you commonly see the high-tech set train each other to espouse.
Digital Citizen
This is what small-government types rail about. This is why they don't want this magically wonderful "mixed" economy. In this case - you have friends in the small-government, free-market communities. Again - this is why people (von Mises, Hayek, Ayn Rand) brought up the slippery slope warning . BECAUSE you inevitably get to this point.
By the way - in Atlas Shrugged the main villains were people who "bought" government.
Nobody who is for individual freedom is for government being bought. That is why we are for small government. That is why we are for unfettered capitalism.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
Had a small government type in power here for close to a decade. While happily getting rid of parts of government that helped people, quite happy to expand the parts that spied and repressed the people. Spent lots of time fighting the Supreme Court over the peoples rights and the governments right to remove them.
Sorry, but a government that due to smallness, can do nothing but repress the people, is not a solution. The solution is good government, which is especially hard to do in America due to the way elections work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
This took 2 seconds on Google:
http://listado.mercadolibre.co...
You're not talking about George W Bush are you? He wasn't a small government type by any stretch of the imagination. And a small government - by definition - is not a repressive government.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
Socialism is only useful when chaos has taken over... Let's use the tv series The Walking Dead for an example.... What they have to struggle for daily needs socialism... But once things progress back to a civilized, populated society, then socialism can't and won't work. It's a a starter "government" nothing more
An excellent example of the law of unintended consequences.
debugging your tesla
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
So stop buying them.
"And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms."
With full blown mechanized farming using plenty of herbicides, pesticides, and nitrate fertilizer; it takes about an acre and a half per person for subsistence level farming.
Back before mechanized farming and man made nitrate fertilizer and there was nothing BUT organic farming; it took 4-5 acres per person for subsistence level.
If you want to go paleo and hunter gather for your food; you need about 8 acres per person in your foraging range.
The 8 acres for a hunt and gather economy comes from an explanation to the Harrison administration why the Cherokee, Choctaw, and Chickasaw claimed more land per person than Scots-Irish settlers. The 4-5 acres for organic farming and 1-1.5 for fertilized farming come from a text on the importance of the Haber process to modern civilization. Following the statistics of Malthus; the world was headed for a malthusian catastrophe with the food supply by 1920s. The scaling up of the Haber process for artificial nitrogen fixing in 1913 made a gigantic difference in crop yields.
NRRPT/RCT
No, Stephen Harper. And how do you figure a small government can not be a repressive government? A small government is just a small government. Sometimes it's so small that it has to contract out the repression or just support the private police (such as the Pinkertons) in repressing. It's usually not a majority that is being repressed so the government/private interests can get away with it. Slavery was another example of repression by small government, along with what was done to the natives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Sometimes 875 horsepower and a whole bunch of bells and whistles isn't enough. Here's one more reason why farmers might want to send John Deere a Deere John letter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQhvruimfs
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
OK. We need to define "small". Small, in the US context is constitutionally limited. See the the US Constitution. Powers were enumerated and delegated to the Federal Government. The Federal government can do only what's described there and no more.
In the US we've gotten to the point were "regulating interstate commerce" means that a farmer can't grow food for his own use without potentially violating a federal law.
"Small" means paying attention to the constitutional limits. If there are no constitutional limits then "small" in this sense has a different meaning.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
Seatbelt warning...
Same problem. I always start the car first, so that the oil has time to start circulating and warming while I put on the seatbelt.
Stupid buzzer! They could make it only sound if you went into gear, if the government would let them... 8-(
This is a simple case of Open Source vs Proprietary.
So buy a brand that lets you work on them then? If no other brands are doing that, why not?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.