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Apple Explores Making iPhones in the US, Finds 'the Cost Will More Than Double': Nikkei (nikkei.com)
Apple is exploring the idea of making iPhones in the United States. But the company has realized that it will cost more than double to make the shiny new gadgets at home, according to a report on Japan-based outlet Nikkei. From the report:Key Apple assembler Hon Hai Precision Industry, also known as Foxconn Technology Group, has been studying the possibility of moving iPhone production to the U.S., sources told the Nikkei Asian Review. "Apple asked both Foxconn and Pegatron, the two iPhone assemblers, in June to look into making iPhones in the U.S.," a source said. "Foxconn complied, while Pegatron declined to formulate such a plan due to cost concerns." Foxconn, based in the gritty, industrial Tucheng district in suburban Taipei, and its smaller Taiwanese rival churn out more than 200 million iPhones annually from their massive Chinese campuses. Another source said that while Foxconn had been working on the request from Apple Inc., its biggest customer that accounts for more than 50% of its sales, Chairman Terry Gou had been less enthusiastic due to an inevitable rise in production costs. "Making iPhones in the U.S. means the cost will more than double," the source said.
So they would make $300+ per iphone rather than $500+ per iphone. It's still over a 100% markup, so I fail to see much of a problem.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
If the cost to make them will "more than double" does that mean they will double the price passed on to us? In other words, will they double their profits as well? Or are they screaming and crying how they won't be able to make them "cost effectively" in the mean-old-USA.
In other, other words, how much profit in built into an iPhone anyway?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
If making phones "at home" means America, why aren't they paying their taxes here?
Since they charge more than quadruple what it costs to make it this shouldn't be a problem.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Apple is in the great position of having so much money, they could spend quite a lot making this happen - but only making some phones in the U.S...
Then they could give purchases an option - pay extra for an iPhone made in the U.S.? Apple could even be generous and split the difference with the consumer.
The people would really have a chance to put their money where their mouth is so to speak...
The thing is I have really mixed feelings about buying such a device. I would definitely love to support a return of manufacturing to America, but the other side of it is - do I really want to take away income from China? There are so many people so dependent on the factories there, and they have much less than Americans did to fall back on when manufacturing declined here.
In the end I buy enough Apple accessories that I guess they would still be getting something, so I'd probably opt to pay extra for a U.S. iPhone. But I just wanted to point out that such a thing is a grayer area than it would first appear.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apple looks into making the phones in the US and their answer is to ask the Chinese company they're currently using, who has no interest in making them in the US, how well that would work? And surprise surprise, they came back with, "sorry, costs too much, you should keep making them here where we already have our facilities." I'm shocked, SHOCKED!
How about investigate US-based companies? How about an investment group who might be able to put together a group who could find a way to do it more cheaply here?
It may cost double to make the phones in the US, but we'll just make the Chinese government buy the phones for us.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
According to this article. The $649 iPhone 7 costs around $220 to make meaning that Apple gets roughly around $400 in profit. Lets imagine that the cost does double, they will still be getting ~$200 per phone. A very healthy profit with a lot of that money staying in the US rather than China or Ireland.
Also, the cost doubling calculation (done by Foxcon!) probably assumes that they would do things exactly the same in the US as they do in China. That is, hiring thousands of people for minimal pay to to a large part of the assembly by hand. However, if moved to the US they would probably automate more of the process and employ much less people. Think of the savings on suicide netting alone.
With all their design skills they haven't made a 90% or higher an automated assembly process yet? I wonder if they could send it as a kit you assemble... ;-)
I have a feeling the first manufacturing they ever bring back will be an automated factory. I could jest but it would be understandable if it's a satellite facilitating managed mostly remote from their existing facilities whenever that time comes...
"Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me
If they switch to total automation, the investment cost will be high but ultimately the cost will decline to there mere cost of maintenance. Having people in the US doing the machine maintenance will still result in more money in the US economy.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I've read that the labor costs involved in building an iPhone are roughly betweeen $12.50 and $30 per unit. (http://nextshark.com/real-cost-of-iphone/) I suspect Apple can afford to absorb that extra expense or pass it on to the consumer without a huge loss in sales if those figures are accurate.
People like you trying to sound "progressive" but you end up just sounding like a douchebag. Which I am sure works well in the Echo Chamber that allowed Hillary to lose against probably the second worst candidate ever. And when Donald Trump isn't nearly as bad as you keep saying he is, it will simply be that the smarter ones will see how stupid posts like this actually sound, and you'll lose even more. So, Keep it up.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Half the profits.
Adding another $300 wouldn't phase me.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This is an Apple story. That would be the option-Constitution.
So what. Doubling the assembly costs would mean little to the final selling price.
iPhone 6 Bill of Materials.
http://www.techinsights.com/teardown.com/apple-iphone-6/
Exploiting foreign underpaid workforce is, instead, perfectly acceptable.
It's environmental. Apple can't just dump poison into ground water in the States.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You should be very worried about what China would do to the entire earth if they become unsettled... after all maybe if they can't work in a factory, they can work in the military...
But apart from that we should simply worry for humanitarian reasons.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How about Canada, eh?
This is just starting some per-emptive whining because Trump has mentioned that he's going to make Apple manufacture in the USA.
I'm not sure how he thinks he can legally do that. A better solution would to to make Apple pay its taxes.
No sig today...
This is just starting some per-emptive whining because Trump has mentioned that he's going to make Apple manufacture in the USA.
I'm not sure how he thinks he can legally do that. A better solution would to to make Apple pay its taxes.
Right. And that could come in the form of a special tariff. I'm told the cost to make an iPhone is around $178. So add a $178 tariff to each one, and it makes the choice very easy for Apple. They can either start making them in the US, providing jobs to Americans that can then more easily afford an iPhone, or keep making them in China where pollution controls are very low and worker protections are even lower.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
> Apple's phone profit margin is about 40%. [nytimes.com]. So, they cannot absorb a doubling of the production cost without selling the phones at a loss.
Running at a margin below a target margin, does not make it a loss.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
They should manufacture phones in the USA and China, price them accordingly and sell them with a big American flag on the USA phones. I'm sure everyone in the red states will snap up the higher priced American phones and then manufacturing jobs will all roll back to the USA.
The additional costs would also include the new plant. I believe the Chinese government built their factories for them as an incentive to get them in China in the first place.
As I recall, Trump intends to cut corporate taxes
Moof!
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
Why do posts have to come with
Disclaimer: I didn't vote for Trump?
Because in these "politically correct" "entitled to a safe zone on demand" times anything hinting of Trump support is "hard evidence" that a person is a racist and a misogynist. There is no possibility that a person might think a Trump proposal might actually have merit or at least be the least worse or two bad proposals.
Disclaimer: I voted, but not for Trump nor Hillary.
The first line of the article reads "iPhones might one day soon carry "Made in America" labels."
If Apple's intent was to find out what it would cost to get an official "Made in the USA" certification, then the change in COGS would not be just a minor increase in price due to only labor costs.
"For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S." (source https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-resources/tools-consumers/made-usa).
in this context, "All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.
Having to comply with that could be very difficult. Apple could try to argue that the majority of the content of the iPhone is software made in the US, but at a minimum, I'd expect them to have to have some sort of qualified labeling or start to do all the molding, machining, PCB creation, PCB population, etc in the US too.
No company pays taxes: taxes are part of the overhead which is included in the cost of the product. You pay their taxes.
Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
But don't worry Americans are twenty seven times as fast at sticking all those fiddly things together, even without the years of experience and training the current staff have.
American robots may be. Note that Apple is investing in robots to disassemble iPhones for e-waste and recycling purposes. Assembly would seem a related problem.
>The component cost for an iPhone 7 is estimated to be about $250
NOWAI! Iphone 3 did cost around USD $30 in materials. Four, possibly around $45 for materials + fabrication costs due to more custom parts/manufacturing processes and genuinely better component selection. FYI, Samsung posted material + fabrication cost of 76k KRW for Galaxy S7 in their earning call.
IHS idiots calculate the BOM cost using retail component prices. Five years ago they were saying that the microscopic battery of the third iphone did cost 11 buck. Back then, I could've easily found better prices retail in Chinese malls, like for 70-90 cents.
You forgot to account for most of the costs. The marginal cost to build one more iPhone, parts and assembly, is about $260. Those 100,000 engineers working for Apple don't work for free, though. Their two big facilities in Cupertino cost about $8 billion, in total their office buildings cost over $15 billion. (Mortgaged and leased for few hundred million per year.) Those Apple stores in the mall? Not free.
Assuming you buy your iPhone at another retailer, rather than the Apple store, the retailer might get $200 to pay their rent, employees, advertising, etc.
When a phome breaks after 6 six months it cost Apple $350 to replace it.
Low volume is hand work.
This is largely comparing the running costs of two largely automated factories and assuming all subassemblies are still made where they currently are.
Foxconn has no reason to lowball this cost, rather the opposite.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If they keep making them the same way they make them now. But the technological progress works at their economies of scale. They have no incentive to automate many of the menial tasks which go into production of the devices if hiring X10 more people somewhere else is cheaper than automating at home. But this is not progress. It's regression. First, new automation technologies don't get built, so cheaper (in the long run) production techniques don't get implemented. And, second, fewer people are trained in building industrial automation technologies. So other industries don't benefit from the added insight of those people. Everyone loses when automation is disparaged. Companies start looking for places with the cheapest cost of menial labor.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
It's not a very well written piece, as there seem to be several key points that are likely to have a significant impact not considered:
Where is the factory going to come from? How much does that cost, and how long will it take to get online?
Have they considered the 45% tariff Trump is planning on putting on goods from China? Apple will still need to import the parts, I assume, unless they are planning on making those in the US too, and components are still goods, just like finished products.
Where do the staff come from, bearing in mind that Trump is planning on deporting many of the immigrants that are actually prepared to work for peanuts. What about the costs and time required for any training (such as it is)?
Given the lack of details, it seems far more likely that someone did some quick numbers on a napkin that are unlikely to have any real basis in fact, than a detailed analysis of all factors likely to be applicable.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
Maybe it should go out to a competitive bid. Perhaps with investments in robots, they can be made more cheaply here. Maybe they can be made in multiple places. They already build Macbooks here.
Greed is the root of all evil.
Whoooooooooooosh!
Thanks for playing, better luck next time!
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Apple tried to manufacture the iPhone in the US initially. The reason they didn't wasn't wages - in highly automated mass production, wages are a tiny percentage of cost of goods. The "deal breaker" was that the US didn't have enough industrial engineers to manage the production lines. Apple would have had to hire 100% of the new graduates from all US universities for 3 years to have enough engineering management to run the lines. The secondary issue is supply lines. All of the suppliers manufacture in or near Foxconn in China, so they can iterate on designs in hours, rather than weeks (shipping). So, to be in market years earlier, and with maximum agility, Apple had to be in China. Manufacturing on a large scale in the US was killed long before the iPhone launched.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
And I don't pay taxes either: my taxes are overhead included in the cost of my salary, right? I think if you follow that argument further you will discover that, in fact, no one pays taxes -- or anything else, for that matter.
Why would you go to Foxconn to request something like this? They don't have a US manufacturing capability. Of course it's going to be expensive as hell to build it from the ground up. Why wouldn't they solicit a bid from one of the US based contract manufacturers?
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That's a brilliant idea, because that would also have the added benefit that clunky German Siemens phones would suddenly become attractive again.
I'm not sure how he thinks he can legally do that.
Tariffs. Import restrictions. Like every other country not in an economic death spiral has.
The cost to Apple doubles, driving up retail $6.
The manufacturing cost of an iPhone 6 is about $5. The parts and materials cost around $220.
Making it cost $10 or $11 to manufacture isn't going to break anyone.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/h...
So they asked Chinese companies what it would cost to build on American soil. Is anyone surprised when the Chinese went: "Oh it'd cost like, double man, you might as well just keep that juicy contract with us. Over here. Where we can just put nets up to catch the suicide jumpers."
I think, for most of us, Trumpet is as bad as we thought. It's pretty sad when the Chinese are looking at him and going "Uh, dude, climate change is reals bro" and he's turning to Putin for a nipple to suck on while he cries himself to sleep. Look at those tiny hands, how cute!
They should try asking Jabil whether they could do it for them and assemble in-country.
But I'd be just as happy if they didn't. If they're able to suck up Jabil's capacity faster than Jabil could build out more, even for a while, that would make it harder for the rest of Silicon Valley to get stuff made.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Don't see any problem with singling a certain company or product out for tax persecution, eh?
Wait until it's the company you work for, or your political enemies are in office
And then, the Laffer curve will bite him in the ass?
Ezekiel 23:20
no they where not able to find industrial engineers willing to work 60-80 hours a week for $32K a year.
Not like the Fanboys pay for them anyway. Free upgrades for everyone!
When so many corporations get around their taxes completely, what can cuts do.
We keep doing the same bullshit over and over and over. Cutting corporate taxes helps the corporate class and does little for anyone else.
He thinks it's a low number and prefers mass-unemploment and starvation to a moral dilemma.
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The same old shit from corporate assholes. This isn't how things work and you know it.
... A better solution would to to make Apple pay its taxes.
Right. And that could come in the form of a special tariff.
The problem with imposing tariffs is that it can easily start a trade war raising the prices of all sorts of goods, not just Apple's. Getting them to pay their taxes doesn't bring that risk.
Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
Yeah.. right now all worker shortages are in this category.
...means I really don't give a shit what impact American manufacturing creates. They will still make an obscene amount of profit per product regardless, so let's kindly stop worrying about this bullshit concern from Apple. They won't be suffering.
Right. And that could come in the form of a special tariff. I'm told the cost to make an iPhone is around $178. So add a $178 tariff to each one, and it makes the choice very easy for Apple. They can either start making them in the US, providing jobs to Americans
And the Japanese government should charge Toyota several thousand dollars for each car that Toyota makes in the US or other foreign (non-Japan) countries rather than making them in Japan, providing jobs to Japanese workers?
Can people making the US minimum wage and trying to provide for themselves really afford to buy more iPhones?
I am confused why it would COST 2x to the consumer. It's two times the cost of manufacture, but as I have read the manufacturing cost is actually quite low and most of the cost of an iPhone has to do with the premium paid for the Apple name.
2x a small number is often still a small number.
And then, the Laffer curve will bite him in the ass?
They do not teach the Laffer curve in the Republican school of Voodoo Economics.
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
Cut full time hours down and remove healthcare form jobs to start
Ask yourself why those wages are so low.
Well, taking a Google Streetview stroll around, "gritty, industrial" doesn't seem too far out of place, but that's not necessarily bad; it's a matter of what you like. It looks a bit like how I imagine 1920s Manhattan to have been, with high density mid-rise residential housing cheek-by jowl with commercial and industrial facilities. Only with densely forested mountains a few miles away.
It's not the way Americans organize things, but it has its attractions. I bet a lot of people walk to work and buy stuff for their evening supper on the way home.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The cost increase is because it's more expensive to install the suicide nets in American factories:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
What I think is not up to you to state, Or even guess.
I just prefer a fair redistribution of wealth. Right now much of the world's wealth is removed from active economy by few super-rich, who use it to either gamble in the financial markets, or simply sit on it like freakin' Smaug, On the other end, those who produce the products or services where the wealth comes from are denied the right to a dignified life.
The USA is producing college graduates with massive debt who can't afford to take normal jobs.
No sig today...
He's not lowering the tax to zero. So what's your point?
Their wages are so low because the prevailing cost of living in those countries is lower, which is the result of a variety of factors, some benign, some less so (like less pollution and worker safety controls). As more and more people are put to work in higher-value jobs (manufacturing would be considered higher value to them since most are working in agriculture and trade fields), the standard of living and wage levels will rise commensurately.
i doubt he is trying to sound progressive, i don't think he is trying at all, sadly the left has disintegrated into this whiny pale image of the right with the same tactics (name calling, put downs, finger wagging) and it just makes them seem weak and ineffectual.
they had the numbers and the millennials and were too up their own butts thinking they had the election in the bag to even go and vote. lol
Why not?
The US has been doing that for light trucks for over 50 years.
If americans had to pay for "made in america" products they would not own much. Even Harley davidsons are made from china parts and assembled in mexico
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Not if you own Apple stock. You may not own it directly, but look at the stocks held in many mutual funds, and even non tech funds have it as one of its major holdings. If you have an IRA, 401k or other retirement plan with stock mutual funds, you likely own some Apple stock. Cutting Apple's profit in half (assuming all Apple's products are to be made in the USA) could have some affect on retirement income for Americans.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
You don't work in a corporation? Most people do. And spending less money on taxes gives them more money to spend on payroll, reinvestment, or dividends. The first two benefit you, the third one can benefit you if you buy stock in the company you work for. I think all employees that can, should.
No Apple does not pay their taxes. Apple is hold revenue off their books in order to not pay taxes. Apple also has elaborate shell business that hide their revenues. http://prospect.org/article/pr...
What did you expect when you use child labor....
You're pretending every single phone they make has to be replaced under warranty?
If you'd read my entire post, you'd see that I address that very point. You, on the other hand, implied that the cost applied to every phone; or, at least, failed to address the fact that it does not.
And chiding me for making shit up? Really? It's the middle of my work day, I don't have time to look up the actual numbers, but I do happen to know the numbers I made up are much closer to reality than the numbers you made up. Be careful with that stone in that glass house.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
The picture you paint is a bit too rosy, to say the least.
Wages are low because there's a different definition on what constitutes "minimum living standard". It's true that generally speaking industrialization leads to class awareness, and subsequent social strife. That's how it worked in the Western world. However production is now mostly in countries with authoritarian regimes which don't see well things like unions, strikes and salary demands. Those countries already attract foreign corporations by offering tax-free zones that won't enforce the already poor local regulations, if wages were to rise too much, corporations would just move production elsewhere, because if there's something that is never in short supply, is exploitable poor masses.
The only way to effectively contrast this phenomenon is to build trade barriers between countries with too big wage gap. Because remember: Apple cannot survive without selling iPhones in the US.
Apparently, yes. There is a large group of people that aren't even making minimum wage (or any wage) that have iPhones.
They do not teach the Laffer curve in the Republican school of Voodoo Economics.
Oh yes, they quite definitely do... they just lie about which side of it (or related macroeconomic curves) we are on.
Someone had to do it.
Right. And that could come in the form of a special tariff. I'm told the cost to make an iPhone is around $178. So add a $178 tariff to each one, and it makes the choice very easy for Apple. They can either start making them in the US, providing jobs to Americans
And the Japanese government should charge Toyota several thousand dollars for each car that Toyota makes in the US or other foreign (non-Japan) countries rather than making them in Japan, providing jobs to Japanese workers?
Japan doesn't import US-made cars to Japan. They make them in the US to ... get around import restrictions! TADA!
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I don't buy that argument across the board.
It'd be true in a truly open and free market, but government granted monopolies (IP protections) allow certain things to be priced not in a way that just surpasses break even enough to be worth it, but instead at the highest price people are willing to pay.
Yes, at the supermarket, a corporate tax is passed along, but not for something like a drug company.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
That when someone says it's not wages, it's the lack of available experienced workers, they are actually saying it's wages. The proper response to not being able to find enough people to do a job is to offer more money, not complain that there's no one qualified because not enough people are willing to do the job at the price you're offering.
There are very few occupations where there can be a legitimate lack of talent/experience for the job. Running an assembly line isn't one of them.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Don't see any problem with singling a certain company or product out for tax persecution, eh?
Wait until it's the company you work for, or your political enemies are in office
I actually do see a problem with it. What I certainly do not have a problem with, however, is targeting companies (yes, or products) based on specific behavior for tax penalties and/or benefits. It's been done for a long time, and even Obama did it, sometimes even without congressional action at all.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Bullshit! I think it can be made for a reasonable cost. It sounds like Apple is fudging a few things. I remember when US Airways got it's panties in a bunch over having to give up it's foreign call centers. It turns out that on-shoring all of the reservation processing added only a minor cost increase.
Possibly. Though I think I read that there are more iPhones sold in China than US right now. Oh yes, here is a source. Quoting:
The most important finding, though, was that the data suggests there are now more than 131 million iPhones in-use in China at the end of 2015, making it a larger market for Apple than the U.S., which is estimated to have 110 million active iPhone users, according to data released earlier this year by Consumer Intelligence Research Partners.
It might make more sense for Apple to keep making and selling iPhones in China than move the whole show to the US.
We live in an imperfect world and no economic system is without its warts but history has demonstrated that the liberation of trade from free markets leads to rising standards of living and greater freedoms. The progress isn't always linear and there will be lots of fraud and inequities along the way but unless someone devises a better system I don't see what the alternative is.
Proudly made in the USA, with new embossed Eagle hologram emblem on the rear to show that you are a patriotic supporter of the U.S.A
Hey, if people will pay for a damn gold iphone, why not?
Uh. Wealth is essentially production, and is reflected by the buying power of income. A person's wealth is their buying-power income per time (e.g. annual income as a purchasing-power parity).
There aren't very many "Super-rich". The big CEOs and CFOs making millions aren't actually doing much damage, or at least not much in context.
For example, an earlier CFO of Ford Motors was taking about a $40 million total compensation package; $8 million of that is cash salary, bonuses, and dividends, while the rest is stock or stock options. Stock and stock options come from the secondary security market, devaluing the stocks investors hold; cash salary, bonuses, and dividends come from revenues, just like worker wages.
If you broke up that $8 million among Ford's employees, it'd be $53 per employee per year; $4.44/month; $2.05 per 2-week pay check; just over a dollar per week; or 2.7 cents per hour. Even with a dozen executives, you're still talking about 32 cents per employee per hour, or $640/year.
Stock options don't get taxed until exercised; stock issuance, exercised stock options, dividends, cash bonuses, and salary all get taxed by the IRS as immediate income. The gains made on stocks are further taxed as income if sold in the first year, or as capital gains (15%) if sold thereafter. Reinvested dividends are taxed as cash; when the stock is sold, the difference between its purchase price by dividend reinvestment and its current price at sale is taxed at the appropriate rate.
You still have people like Warren Buffet floating around, but not many. Their scope is limited because their actual income is limited: they may hoard tons of cash, but that cash has no real impact on the economy. Cash that's idle in bank accounts allows the banks to loan money; but that cash itself doesn't participate in the economy, and has exactly as much impact otherwise as all the billions and billions of dollars you might imagine Scrooge McDuck could have hoarded away if he were real.
Warren Buffet gets a lot of attention. He has a total net worth of $66 billion, but people like to say he earns $13.4 billion in a year. This is inconsistent; the truth is he holds $66 billion of Berkshire Hathaway stock, and a swing in that stock by a few percent can shove his current net worth up by billions. His actual income is mostly dividends... $62 million of dividends per year. That's actually $187 per Berkshire employee per year.
So Warren and Michael can't make much of a difference to anyone. When you get to Chipotle, their CEO is actually making $33.72 per employee per year; I miscalculated this at $3,600 before, which was hilariously off.
So yeah, long and short of it is none of these people have any significant or actionable impact on the economy. The money they're sitting on... they could spend it, and they'd cause inflation, but not a sustained increase in demand (so not more permanent jobs). You might see a job spike for a few years, an inflation crisis, and then an unemployment crisis.
Try again?
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Except history demonstrated the opposite. Most of the socio-economical conquests of the working class happened in the 20th century well before the Reagan/Thatcher era that imposed ultra-liberism as worldwide dominant doctrine. The fact that corporations could not move production elsewhere at whim, but were forced to keep it where the goods were consumed, was actually a major contributing factor to the success of these struggles. Once international free-trade deals took place, a slow but constant erosion of the working class rights started. To the point where blue-collar America ends up voting Trump (misguided, I agree, but they do have a point in supporting protectionism).
Wages will go up so I cna afford to buy more crap. By some estimates I am making half of what I should be making. See this citation for a discussion of the matter.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fac...
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Twice the manufacturing cost doesn't mean the phone cost will double. The majority of the phone cost is material cost. That would be pretty close to the same.
When so many corporations get around their taxes completely, what can cuts do.
A lot. One of the reasons that corporate tax payments are so low is because the rates are so high, so corporations have a big incentive to lobby for loopholes, and pay accountants to exploit them. If they pay an accountant $80k, and he finds $81k of tax reduction, then it is worth it to the corporation to employ that accountant, but it is an $80k dead loss to society.
Taxes should be simple and fair, and they should incentivize good behavior. Our current corporate taxes do none of that. They are immensely complicated, very unfair (two near identical companies can have dramatically different tax rates), and the incentivize a lot of harmful behavior, like shipping jobs and capital overseas.
We need to cut the rates, eliminate the loopholes, and get rid of the idiotic extraterritorial taxation that is done by no other country on the planet.
Disclaimer: My wife and I run a software business that is incorporated. I spend a lot of time reading up on tax laws. That is time that I could otherwise spend on productive activities. But it is worth it, because we pay near zero income taxes. Oh, and here is how many Americans we employ: 0. Our sysadmin is in Shanghai, our graphic artist is in Karachi, etc. You can thank your government for that.
This is just starting some per-emptive whining because Trump has mentioned that he's going to make Apple manufacture in the USA.
I'm not sure how he thinks he can legally do that. A better solution would to to make Apple pay its taxes.
Except that Trump wants to give ex-patriated money a "tax holiday" to bring it home. Yeah, that'll help the deficit the Republicans cry about when Democrats are in office, but insist doesn't matter when Republicans are in office.
No Apple does not pay their taxes.
They pay what they are legally required to pay. How much extra money have you voluntarily donated to the IRS? Nothing? Then why should Apple?
Apple is hold revenue off their books in order to not pay taxes.
No, they hold it overseas, which is not "off the books". If you think it is absurd for the US government to incentivize companies to invest outside America, then you should complain about it to congress, not to Apple.
Depends on which aspects of history you choose to correlate to which outcomes. It's very easy to pick and choose data points. As for the corrosion of the working class post-Reagan/Thatcher - tell that to Asia and China and see if they agree. What Americans consider the corrosion of their working class is really just the equalization of the standard of living between the West and East.
It can, but it doesn't in that case:
40% of $649 is $259.60 which is more than $225. Mind you, I don't expect Apple to go from $259.60 per phone in profit to $34.60, either.
But I'm not sure if the doubling production costs is reasonable, that implies that labour costs would be more than double in the U.S. and Apple has repeatedly said it wasn't outsourcing to China because the labour was cheaper...
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Didn't Trump promise rebuilding the infrastructure or something? (Not US-based so I don't know what overblown promises were made this time.)
Ezekiel 23:20
If your post was sarcasm, it was lost somewhere the moment I believed it. I've seen enough Leftwing bullshit to believe you meant it. If you aren't a left wing, then I apologize, and you should have put a disclaimer that it was sarcasm, and not real.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't see any problem with singling a certain company or product out for tax persecution, eh?
Wait until it's the company you work for, or your political enemies are in office
It targets advantage of any and every company that takes advantage of China's slave labor and tax evasion tactics. Apple still makes billions in profit each year. Slashing that a bit to become legit will only effect their stock price. It won't in any way hinder their development.
Apple tried to manufacture the iPhone in the US initially. The reason they didn't wasn't wages - in highly automated mass production, wages are a tiny percentage of cost of goods. The "deal breaker" was that the US didn't have enough industrial engineers to manage the production lines. Apple would have had to hire 100% of the new graduates from all US universities for 3 years to have enough engineering management to run the lines. The secondary issue is supply lines. All of the suppliers manufacture in or near Foxconn in China, so they can iterate on designs in hours, rather than weeks (shipping). So, to be in market years earlier, and with maximum agility, Apple had to be in China. Manufacturing on a large scale in the US was killed long before the iPhone launched.
Bullshit. There's people at Foxconn that come right out of high school to work in those factories. The excuse about highly technical workers is a sham. Yes in some parts they need skilled workers but the brunt of the work is done through slave labor.
no they where not able to find industrial engineers willing to work 60-80 hours a week for $32K a year.
Ding Ding. Qualified engineers aren't going to leave their six figures job to paid less than a person working full time at McDonalds makes.
They spent every penny on iPhones (or similar) and then whine to the gub'ment they don't have money for food. Problem solved! Of course, when you complain about it a large segment of the population will claim that iPhones are now considered a necessity.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
If Apple is unable to find an exploitable work force in America, then try something like this . . .
Hey fanboys! Here's a great opportunity to come work for Apple assembling iPhones! It's a fantastic opportunity to see how things work behind the magic illusion. Long hours. No pay. Benefits such as safety nets to prevent workers from committing suicide. Apply today.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
You are aware that literally every piece of technology manufactured today is made overseas, right?
The decision to do this was made by consumers - if consumers refused to buy products made in China, even though those products are cheaper, then this would not have occurred. What kind of phone to you own? Where do you think it was made? How about your TV, your stereo, your home router, etc ,etc?
I'm willing to pay more for a product that's made in the US, or at least not made in China.
Also I'm an AAPL shareholder, and I want Apple to move more of its manufacturing out of China, even if that hurts AAPL stock price.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's what I want.
Looks like I'm slightly wrong. Some technology companies do make things in the U.S, although it's likely that the components are made overseas, who really knows?
Who is manufacturing in America?. Note that there aren't any consumer electronics manufacturers on the list.
If the US corporate tax rate were competitive with the rest of the world, trillions of dollars that cannot responsibly be repatriated right now would come flooding back into the US practically overnight. If corporations tried to do that right now, they could be successfully sued by their shareholders for wasting their wealth. Those trillions of dollars would spur new investment and foreign companies would move their headquarters to the US like they do for any other tax haven.
I don't care. I'll switch companies or freelance. I'm not an indentured servant after all.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
THey usually have some sort of phone as it is often crucial for job hunting.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
. But it is worth it, because we pay near zero income taxes. Oh, and here is how many Americans we employ: 0. Our sysadmin is in Shanghai, our graphic artist is in Karachi, etc. You can thank your government for that.
Yeah, no. Take responsibility for being a selfish fucking asshole instead of blaming the government.
When I first started paying income taxes I shed a tear. Not because I felt 'robbed', but because I had reached a point where I was financially stable enough to contribute to my country and to all its people. Even though it was a very modest contribution at the time, I was helping to maintain and build roads, the electricity grid and all other vital infrastructure. I was helping to prevent people down on their luck from becoming homeless or starving. I was helping those with illnesses to get medical care. In short: I was helping to build a civilization. And I was and am fucking proud of it.
Paying taxes is a virtue, not an evil to be avoided at all costs.
Taxes should be simple and fair [...]
I'm reminded of an old joke about the IRS's new simplified 4 step tax forms:
There's the format. It's simple. No loopholes. We might disagree with about how much you should be sending (eg, "Step 4: Send in 20% of that number") but the concept is that you should send x% of your profits. But now we start asking questions...
What are "expenses"? Suppose the business buys me, it's CEO, a brand new Lamborghini and then says, "Gosh, we barely made a profit after expenses. Guess I don't have to pay any business taxes." Well, yeah, 'cause you bought a Lamborghini and you certainly didn't need to do that. But I don't own the Lamborghini, the business does. So you can't come to me, personally, and say, "Hey, you owe us taxes on that Lamborghini!" because it isn't my property.
So there has to be some kind of definition of what an expense is. You can't just spend all the business's money on hookers and blow and then say, "Gosh, I made no money."
If they pay an accountant $80k, and he finds $81k of tax reduction, then it is worth it to the corporation to employ that accountant [...] I spend a lot of time reading up on tax laws. That is time that I could otherwise spend on productive activities. But it is worth it, because we pay near zero income taxes.
See, this is important: You devote time and effort to finding ways to save money on taxes because it helps your business's bottom line. Your complaint is that you spend lots of time doing it and you wish you didn't have to spend so much time finding ways around it.
So if the above, simpler, method--a simple "flat tax" if you will--were enacted, you would gladly pony up your 20%? Or would you still find ways--creative expenses and the like--to pay less cash in taxes?
I maintain that businesses would always be trying to pay less in taxes. Period. It's the nature of the beast--taxes are an expense and businesses want to cut expenses as much as possible.
Again, the current complaint is that it is "really hard" to cut your tax bill. It would be nice if the government made it easier for you to come up with ways to not pay your fair share.
weird New Zealand has one of the most open economies in the world, with almost zero trade barriers and tariffs , and yet it is doing well for a country on the arse end of the world where the have all the additional costs of shipping to everywhere. In fact New Zealand has all sorts of issues with the US protectionist economy.
Well, once a Western worker is put in direct competition with someone willing to do his job at 1/10th of the salary, worker's rights are the first thing to compromise on. That is, if he's not just "reorganized" out of employment. Because yes, rights are expensive. Only a relatively wealthy society can afford them, one that has a meaningful redistribution of such wealth.
The paragon you make with Asia is not entirely valid. In the '80s Asia was still a mostly rural society (apart from the Soviet block), the increase of living standards they saw was due to industrialization's more efficient production of wealth. Also, don't confuse rights with wealth. It's true that there's some sort of equalization of wealth between the West and East, but is it also true for worker's rights? See the point I made about authoritarian regimes.
So, let me get this straight. You start by saying that wealth is essentially production, but then you have people like Warren Buffet whose wealth comes entirely from stock options and dividends, therefore not production (at least, not his own).
Again, you claim that by spending it all, it would only cause inflation, and no sustainable increase in demand. I agree. You know what would though? A $640/year raise to all Ford workers (that not including all dividends that Ford pays to shareholders, which I'm not able to quantify right now). Because that's money that won't sit in bank accounts, but will re-enter economy almost immediately. Of course, that won't cause an immediate increase in market demand, but a slow, but sustainable growth driven by diffuse consumes in the long term.
Foxconn already functions is 14 countries. Can you explain who else has the knowledge to work this out ? Not you, obviously. Do you know anything about large scale industrial manufacturing ? For example, Apple produces about 1 million phones a day, the number of new cars bought in the USA each year is about 7.5 million, or just over a weeks worth of iPhone production. Scaling up manufacturing while maintaining quality control, availability of components, etc etc is a huge problem. And its not just the assembly, there are all the parts that go into it, what are the logistic of that ? Shipping time, Storage, production flows, getting the end products out the doors Each circuit board needs to be tested multiple times during the various stages of production, the machines to do this are not cheap, the cost of designing the tests are not cheap, and then in 12 months time they all have to be redesigned for the new model. There is how much power the plant uses, the maintenance of the plant, water, waste, the logistics of getting the components into the factory, sorted, loaded into the machines. And they are not just doing stuff for Apple, there is Dell, HP, Samsung, etc etc etc, they are the experts on this. God, you don't go an see your plumber to get an estimate of costs to get a filling in your teeth, you go to the people who know the job.
I wonder if they factored in Trump's intended 40% tariff on those part cost estimates?
Or the fact that China says, "you erect trade barriers, we will too."
Just wondering over here.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
When so many corporations get around their taxes completely, what can cuts do.
A lot. One of the reasons that corporate tax payments are so low is because the rates are so high, so corporations have a big incentive to lobby for loopholes, and pay accountants to exploit them. If they pay an accountant $80k, and he finds $81k of tax reduction, then it is worth it to the corporation to employ that accountant, but it is an $80k dead loss to society.
There is truth to this idea. Unfortunately, unless the tax rate is close to zero, i.e., less than the cost of a few accountants, the tax dodge will always be worthwhile. I.e., the motivation is not that the tax rates are so high. Rather, it's that they are above $0.
You know what would most likely happen? They'll build a new plant, it'll be highly automated with the very newest tech rather than employ any line workers, they'll hire three shifts of managers with green cards from India to watch the computer report the status of the assembly lines (and record everything they do on cameras.) The plant will run 168 hours a week. They'll incorporate parts from China, which are now 140% the cost of what they were previously because President Trump wants that tariff really bad, and they'll charge you double and then multiply that by 1.4.
Welcome to the new world, where we don't buy stuff from China anymore, and we still have no work, and we can't afford anything.
President Trump's gonna make America Grate Again. Ouch! Here, hold my footgun.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Oh no, there's a possibility. You know, if you're stupid.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Anyone who doesn't pay for high priced accountant is "voluntarily" donating extra money to the IRS because the tax code is so complex you need a dedicated accountant to find the loopholes.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
So it will jump from $5 to $10?
I 100% agree, well said.
I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
The problem is, Trump was pushing how he was going to bring manufacturing back to the USA, effectively promising the angry voters Jobs. It was all about bring jobs to them. Truth is he can't, and won't . Apple makes 60% of its profits internationally. At best you will see Apple split into 2, "Apple International" and "Apple USA" Given the profits from other things like iTunes, Apps, Services etc lets assume that 30% of profits are US based, so at best Apple would bring back 30% of its manufacturing because internationally there is no requirement, there are no import tariffs levied by the US government, and Apple has to remain internationally competitive. Manufacturing is more expensive in the USA (power, water, land, buildings, etc etc all cost more), so end consumer prices will cost more, especially when those costs get distributed on a lower volume of production. You could well see a situation where the iPhone becomes cheaper in the rest of the world than in the USA, and it would not just be Apple, it would be all the major brands of electronics, clothes, shoes, etc etc etc. I am not sure the voters will abide by that either. ANY move by Trump will take time, and by time I also mean legal challenges. To see how quickly this will go just look at how many years have gone by since Apple won against Samsung and its still not finished. AFTER the legal wrangling by all the manufacturers you will get them complying, but very slowly. They know at best Trump is there for 4 years, at worst 8. Failure of Trump producing jobs is likely to see him there for 1 term, and I doubt he honestly wants to be there for two. So, IF apple then drags its feet, i.e. taking time with planning permission, deliberately blocking it up so they delay more because they have to redesign, argue of which state it will be in, delay any law suits that will take, plus any issues with infrastructure (required just to build the factory), they could spin this out way past a Trump 2nd term. And it won't be just Apple. The mid terms may punish Trump too, failure to supply jobs to the people who voted for him, with the rich getting tax cuts at the same time. Trump could loose badly here and be unable to push through his demands, effectively killing the whole process off. Look for lots of money being spent by corporations trying to influence decisions. And to be honest, it much more likely that Trump will be impeached before any manufacturing is bought back to the US. The failure to have a blind trust for his businesses , the non-wall between him and those interests because his children are both in control of the business and part of his team means risks of insider trading is extremely high. So, all in all, its NOT going to happen.
Production cost is not the entire cost of the phone, just the cost of the assembly. That's about $10 per phone, because Apple's manufacturing is highly automated - people just do the steps that humans are better than computers at. Adding $10 to the cost of the phone isn't going to kill anyone.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
The profit on the iPhone does flow into the US economy. And, of course, they do all the engineering, and most of the marketing, etc., in the US. When you buy an iPhone that's where much of the money goes.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Lawrence Lessig
Not only Apple phones are made abroad, Samsung and Google phones are as well. High tariffs on mobile phones would bring manufacturing jobs back to US. However higher mobile phone prices would probably prove to be very unpopular with people in general.
-- You will not have a pleasant skydiving experience unless you properly prepare and pack your parachute first.
The USA got very lucky, because after WWII they were the only large, highly populated country with significant food and natural resources to not get bombed. Asia and Europe were rebuilding, and the US go to sell them stuff to do that with. WWII also ramped up production, that production got converted to non military uses, like farm trucks, cars, aircraft and many of the technologies developed in WWII ended up with Civilian uses too. This created a huge demand for consumer products and it fuelled the economy well into the late 60's, the the US "peaking" in the early 1970's. this was when the rest of the world had caught up, they could manufacture for their own needs, produce their own consumer goods. Where we are now is that US dominance of world trade has gone, in the 1950's it accounted for 60% of the worlds GDP, how its down to about 20%. What had sheltered the US was the fact that the pie was growing significantly and so it seemed that the US was growing too, and it was, but its percentage of world trade was actually falling. Improved telecoms/IT and shipping has allowed globalisation, the time restraints and shipping costs have fallen, so that now business can easily be done in real time right around the world, design changes can be handle in real time, and the cost per container has in real terms fallen dramatically. Labour costs in Asia created and attractive environment for manufacturing, which still required significant about input. However Asia has modernised too to keep up with the increasing volumes of goods, for example Apple sells almost a million phones a day. Manufacturing costs in Asia are still cheaper than the USA, and they also now have a huge infrastructure to support that manufacturing. This is unlikely to ever be replicated in the USA. Any shift in manufacturing would come with high automation (which can also be used in Asia), meaning any jobs created would be low in number relative to what is currently employed in Asia (Foxconn currently employs 1.3 million people). Wages will not rise in the USA, because comparatively they are high, and because the ease of doing business anywhere else in the world allows for most jobs to be replicated cheaper else where. Further automation will also serve to keep wages down, not just in labour intensive areas, but in areas such as law, accounting, medicine, engineering, transport as AIs do the job quicker and with fewer errors. A Trade war with China will see other Asian countries take up the manufacturing, or Brazil, Africa, it will be a case of whack-a-mole, and retaliatory action by these countries against the US would offset any gains, and they may even make things worse. The worst outcome would be to become more isolationist, the US only having 4% of the worlds population could soon see its position fall faster as other countries continue free trade to each others benefits. There is also the real risk of US policy rejection, particularly in the areas of copyright and patent that would greatly harm many of the US industries leading to further stagnation.
When you say "Our sysadmin is in Shanghai", what you really mean is "Our proprietary data is being shared all over China".
Our sysadmin is in China. Our server is not. Besides, you only put stuff on a server if you want to share it. There is no reason to put proprietary data like source code on a server. Even if our source was disclosed, I really don't think anyone would be interested in it. Why would they?
Just think how smug they'll be after paying more for the only US made phone you can get.
$10 a month to be able to look down on all the Android folks as not supporting the good old USA!
Priceless to the clueless.
Certainly it will cost more, initially, as there's a lot of setup and time involved to get to scale. However, once the manufacturing is in place and operating at scale, costs will come down. Maybe never to the same level but down, none the less. Apple makes a huge profit on each device, so if they wanted to, they could double costs and still make a huge profit, which would improve over time as costs come down.
It's the CHINESE COMPANY that's looking into making phones in the US, not Apple itself. Apple itself doesn't make anything, and it hasn't for at least a decade. They design, market, sell, and support the product. Manufacturing is not among the things they do.
If your post was sarcasm, it was lost somewhere the moment I believed it.
I can't help what you believe, and other people seemed to get it. :)
But for the record:
1) Trump will not be able to lure, convince, or force Apple to come back to the US and make those phones in 'Murica, no matter what he claims.
2) Tim Cook is not going to prison.
3) As far as I know, no one is going to dig up Steve Jobs body.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Since China will reciprocate the tarrif and China will be buying more iPhones any year now...
Would it? Why would corporations who pay very little tax suddenly queue up to pay more?
Excellent idea. Children can learn to read and write and mathematics by the magic of the market.
Is it possible to live on $17 a day on the US?
Yeah, no. Take responsibility for being a selfish fucking asshole instead of blaming the government.
The problem isn't that he is a selfish asshole. The problem is that the government is paying him to act like a selfish asshole.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Caluclation is simple ...with their typical markup is - like - 200% (at least?), this means their profits will also double ... as the last thing Apple will do is take cuts in THEIR profits ... and the last thing most of the Apple fanboys and -girls is care about the price, as long as they have the latest iProduct, so ...
I have been curious about why you refer to Ezekiel from the bible. Apart from the shock value of the donkey dicks (which I think is pretty funny), is there a particular reason you chose it for your signature?
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Why would we want to maximize tax revenue for one of the most inefficient organizations in the US...the federal government? So they can waste more? Give any federal agency more money, and they'll spend it weather they need it or now...that's how it's done. You see it at the end of every fiscal year. They blow whatever remaining budget they have just so they can tell Congress that they needed it. And on top of that, you'll just be adding to congressional pork programs.
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Just another day in Paradise
They don't typically go from paying full taxes to paying none. There's a tipping point where it's more financially lucrative for a business to not ship their shit overseas. And it's not identical for every company.
Just another day in Paradise
From Apple's 10-K for 2012:
The Company’s effective tax rates were approximately 25.2%, 24.2%, and 24.4% for 2012, 2011, and 2010, respectively.
Maybe you should google before making up shit.
Just another day in Paradise
Oh? And who pays the people that buy the products? Don't play that bullshit game.
The whole point of this that companies will always try to maximize their profits. So, the only way to incentivize companies to do the right thing is through the ways and amounts that they get taxed. Raise corporate taxes too high, and they head offshore, and those that don't go have less money to fund more/better jobs.
Just another day in Paradise
And this is why the federal student loan program is a failure. It's artificially raised the price of tuition across the nation.
Just another day in Paradise
Probably not at the level that we've become accustomed, but you can imagine that if labor only costs $17/day then the costs of food would drop, the housing market would adjust to the new incomes, etc. They live on that much in China. There's no reason we can't have the Chinese economy in America.
Would the cost of living fall immediately?
then you have people like Warren Buffet whose wealth comes entirely from stock options and dividends, therefore not production (at least, not his own).
Warren Buffet's income comes from stock options and dividends. Things don't have actual value; the fact that you work doesn't mean your work is worth what we pay you, just that we imagine it so. Buffet "works" in some capacity, and he gets "paid" a shitload.
Wealth, on the other hand, is more-complex. America is a wealthy nation: 2% of our labor works on the farm, and some 10%-ish goes into actually making and shipping food--including the chemists and GMO engineers, the shipping trucks, and the grocery stores. Mexico used 18% last I looked, but they might have caught up; India made great strides between 1992 and 2003, eliminating literally 98% of the labor required to make food; and some poor African bush countries expend more than half their labor simply obtaining food.
In America, we don't work hard to get food; food represents a tiny share of our labor, and we work hard to have a huge pile of money from which we cut the tiniest sliver and hand it to the people making our food. When 1 hour of your work represents food for 50 people, their 2% of their income fills 100% of yours; of course, they spend 12% of their income, and 1/6 of that gets to you, so you're in the same boat as everyone else. (In reality, there's wage inequality, so the farmer could be richer or poorer; the 12% number is what the median household spends out of their income on food.)
You know what would though? A $640/year raise to all Ford workers [...]. Because that's money that won't sit in bank accounts, but will re-enter economy almost immediately.
Yes, to a degree. To the individual, it's still under $25/paycheck, which isn't going to solve poverty any time soon. There are more-complex considerations here, though. Let's assume you mean that the money is taken away from the executives, and is only money that was getting sidelined and not spent; if the executives were spending it, none of the below is true.
What you describe is almost a change between cost of employment and take-home. I've described economic policies where we reduce the cost of employment, such that an employee takes home more of the money an employer pays. So today an employer may pay a $62,200 for a $50,000 employee, who takes home $42,100/year; if that employer paid $59,000 and the employee took home $45,000/year--and all employment costs experienced this change--then the employee's buying power would increase because the ratio of labor-cost to wage-income would be lower. That means the employee can buy more stuff.
The bluntest consideration is the total combined effect. Assuming all 171 million U.S. workers got a $640/year raise, that's $110 billion, or up to 6.6 million minimum-wage, full-time jobs suffused by people hitting up McDonalds 3 times more each month. It's an important, short-term consideration.
I've used that argument before, and it's actually cut off quickly--in just a few years, actually. Malthusian population growth provides a prototype theory: population expands in abundance, and stops expanding when abundance ends. Essentially, our labor force grows when unemployment is low, and shrinks when it's high. This happens in the long-term by birth rates; in the short-term, people retire earlier or later, more poor people die when there's more unemployment, immigration slows with fewer employment opportunities, and some people even stay in college longer. The short-term effect of losing jobs is something I argue more about, because people want to pretend a minimum-wage increase doesn't mean someone becomes unemployed until either wages fall behind inflation or the labor force falls behind population growth; I don't like distortions of reality.
These two things are actually part of a side-goal of my Universal Social Security plan. That plan ultimately provides
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Japan doesn't import US-made cars to Japan. They make them in the US to ... get around import restrictions! TADA!
Yes. And the same would be the case with any manufactured goods. The other 8 billion people on the planet are not going to pay more for US built (insert product here). You can make more stuff domestically for your own domestic market, but you will never have the global economies of scale.
Society doesn't run on good intentions, as much as you'd like it to. And I wouldn't trust it if it did. Lots of people in history started off "with good intentions". It generally ends up with lots of dead people.
Paying taxes is a duty, not a virtue. Calling it a virtue is silly. Making the tax system reasonable and understandable should be the goal.
I really don't give a damn about how someone feels good doing it. I just want things to run.
If a fair % ( IE not 60% or some stupid number) flat tax came into existence with no deductions, you wouldn't be able to find LEGAL ways to avoid it.
But what would base that flat tax on?
Profit? Heck, that's easy--just don't make one. Spend your money on stuff and pay no taxes.
I just want things to run.
No shit.
Improving the tax code and improving people's attitudes towards taxes in general are not mutually exclusive. I never said or implied that society needs to run on good intentions. That is a straw man you erected.
What I did say is that the notion that the tax code is responsible for how people act or how they frame why they don't pay (certain) taxes is ridiculous and self-serving. Such a notion is equivalent with saying "Well, nowhere in the rules does it say I can't kick him in the balls, so blame the rules for me kicking him in the balls."
True as the first part may be, it is still a dick move.
Does that mean the rules need not make it clearer that kicking someone in the balls is a no go? They probably need to, but it's still a dick move.
If you believe in 'fewer regulations' however, then some amount of endowing people with the trust not to make dick moves is required. Choose your poison.
No, they were willing to pay above-average US wages. There are very few experienced manufacturing engineers in the US, and schools train very few, so they don't exist. Apple would have had to spend years talking US schools into training people for jobs, then waiting years for those people to be trained, then hired them.
In contrast, FoxConn staffed the iPhone manufacturing line with experienced staff in weeks.
This is because US manufacturing destroyed itself. We no longer have that capability, because those companies all wiped out their US capacity and trained China to do their jobs, in order to get hire investor ROI. At least, until the Chinese companies wipe out the US companies. Look for example at how IBM trained Lenovo to make their laptops, then sold the whole business to Lenovo. That made IBM investors money, but wiped out an huge, successful US business. That is, it was bad for EVERYONE other than IBM's investors...
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Nope. Apple was willing to pay above-average US wages. The problem was that the people they needed to hire, experienced manufacturing engineers, didn't physically exist in the US in sufficient numbers to staff a large scale consumer electronics manufacturing plant. They're all in China now, because that's where manufacturing is done.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Right. The US still does small-scale manufacturing. It's the large scale stuff (e.g. tens of millions of units a year) that the US isn't capable of. Note that Apple makes their small volume products in the US (e.g. the Mac Pro), just not the cell phones and laptops that they sell millions of.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Read what I wrote. I wasn't talking about line workers, I was talking about the line managers - you need experienced line managers in order to train and manage the line workers. The US trains a few hundred of those a year, and Apple needed thousands.
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What is the relationship between your taxes and you employing sysadmins in Shanghai ?
For the whole company? didn't think so.
Fun read :-)
They blow whatever remaining budget they have just so they can tell Congress that they needed it.
I have discussed this with people in the past, and it was pointed out to me that the budget actually requires the organization spend the money, not that they are just doing it to use up the surplus. I totally agree that it is a really stupid waste of money, but it is congress forcing it, not the people running the agencies.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Amen. Many people asking for higher tax rates on corporations are mostly looking from the standpoint of greed. It seems many just assume that corporate taxes are too low, and that raising them will magically produce more income. I wish more would open a business and run one, as they would learn many things about those "evil CEOs" that run corporations.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
I was having a discussion with a friend over the weekend, and he complained about how racist Trump is, so I asked what exactly was so racist about Trump. The only things he could come up with was the wall with Mexico, and a Muslim registry. When I pointed out that Hillary was for the wall as a senator, he had no response to that.
Why is it racist when Trump says it, but a great idea when Hillary does? Sexism.
http://www.bing.com/videos/sea...
As far as the registry goes, that has been in place for years, it isn't like Obama put a stop to it. Since 9/11, everyone entering the country (legally) registers at the border, and are fingerprinted and asked to give the address of their destination. How is it in any way different to somehow add that the person came from a Muslim country (which is already tracked!)?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Also, I suppose I should point out that I think both Hillary and Trump are unworthy of being president, but it was inevitable that one of them would get elected. Frankly, none of the top four candidates were worthy in my eyes, but I voted Johnson as a tactical vote. Every vote for a third party means it is more likely that the main parties will drift in that direction in the next election cycle.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Having worked in and around the government for 40 years, I don't believe that's accurate.
From : https://www.washingtonpost.com...
If they don’t, the money becomes worthless to them on Oct. 1. And — even worse — if they fail to spend the money now, Congress could dock their funding in future years. The incentive, as always, is to spend.
Just another day in Paradise