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"Maybe It's a Piece of Dust" (theoutline.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: I was in the Grand Central Station Apple Store for a third time in a year, watching a progress bar slowly creep across my computer's black screen as my Genius multi-tasked helping another customer with her iPad. My computer was getting its third diagnostic test in 45 minutes. The problem was not that its logic board was failing, that its battery was dying, or that its camera didn't respond. There were no mysteriously faulty innerworkings. It was the spacebar. It was broken. And not even physically broken -- it still moved and acted normally. But every time I pressed it once, it spaced twice. "Maybe it's a piece of dust," the Genius had offered. The previous times I'd been to the Apple Store for the same computer with the same problem -- a misbehaving keyboard -- Geniuses had said to me these exact same nonchalant words, and I had been stunned into silence, the first time because it seemed so improbable to blame such a core problem on such a small thing, and the second time because I couldn't believe the first time I was hearing this line that it was not a fluke. But this time, the third time, I was ready. "Hold on," I said. "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

529 comments

  1. frist by barbariccow · · Score: 1, Funny

    Frist!

    1. Re:frist by barbariccow · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sorry about that. There was a piece of dust in my "i" key which caused a 1/20ms delay in processing.

    2. Re:frist by bobdehnhardt · · Score: 5, Funny

      If a single piece of dust can spoil your "First!" post, don't you think that's kind of a problem?

    3. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hold up, let my hyper-fixate on this turn of phrase so I can submit a story to /.

      DuSt
      dUsT
      dust
      DUST
      dust
      d u s t

      ok good

    4. Re:frist by gnick · · Score: 2

      IItt aappeeaarrss tthhaatt II aallssoo hhaavvee dduusstt iinn mmyy kkeeyybbooaarrdd........
      GGeenniiuusseess ssaavvee mmee!!

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    5. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes I can. That will be $700 or a class action lawsuit.

    6. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If a single piece of dust can spoil your "First!" post, don't you think that's kind of a problem?

      Not at all, they can just alternate between the space bar and backspace keys - two steps forward, one step back.

    7. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just turn down key repeat a bit.

    8. Re:frist by polyphemus · · Score: 1

      :%s/\ \ /\ /g
      Problem solved.

    9. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your keyboard half a duplex problem.

    10. Re:frist by jhantin · · Score: 1

      I see what you did there ;)

      Doubletype is a symptom of an echo problem, not a duplex problem. Specifically, it happens when both local and remote echo are mistakenly enabled at the same time. Echo and duplex are often confused, possibly because they're characteristically set together: remote echo is clumsy, inefficient or both on a half-duplex channel, so local echo is usually used with it. It also has zilch to do with keyboards unless the setting switch happens to be on it.

      --
      ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
  2. wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    You were probably holding it wrong and let the dust in.

    1. Re:wrong by AvitarX · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I actually had a computer that would exhibit odd behavior, somewhat based on positioning.

      I opened it up to change some RAM out of hopes it would be an inexpensive fix.

      Ended up that is was a screw rolling around shorting stuff out (I found the loose screw), bigger than dust, but seems possible based on the symptoms described (your joke is what made me thing of it).

      I'd say more likely a metal shaving that's a little bigger than dust.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:wrong by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It kind of sounds more like a mechanical problem with the butterfly switch than an electrical problem. At least the fix is the same in either case though. Just $700 or so for a new top case, and the metal shaving or piece of dust or whatever is no longer a problem. Until you get the same problem again, but rest easy, it's just $700 to replace half the case.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    3. Re:wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hold on," I said. "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

      No, the problem is in buying an Apple product in the first place.

    4. Re:wrong by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Was it you who dropped the loose screw in there? When I do that I always make a point of finding the bugger, because if I don't it'll home in on the most expensive component and cause more than an intermittent fault.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:wrong by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I don't think so, but maybe.

      It had the rattling for ages, and then started getting flaky based on position.

      When I opened it up everything was solved. I had looked for loose parts before but failed to find any.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    6. Re:wrong by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Hold on," I said. "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

      No, the problem is in buying an Apple product in the first place.

      No, I think the bigger problem is a tech blogger who thinks that a space bar that spaces twice is "lay[ing] the whole computer out". Learn the sequence "space backspace" and you'll be fine. Or just live with double spaces and let the word processor you are using fix them for you.

    7. Re:wrong by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      Apple wants $700 to fix a single broken key (by replacing the whole top case)? I'll use an external keyboard, thanks!

    8. Re:wrong by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Turns out this is absolutely the correct answer. It all comes down to one thing... Apple clearly thinks its own users are fucking stupid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    9. Re:wrong by GNious · · Score: 1

      Had my laptop (MBP) in for service, after it came back screws fell out and the plastic feet came undone almost immediately.
      Recently opened it up to clean out dust etc, found that the technician had also forgot to reconnect stuff correctly.

      Am actually worried that an internal screw will come loose, roll around shorting things out.

    10. Re:wrong by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Informative

      No - it's less than a year old, and a laptop. He's likely got AppleCare on it, but it would be covered even without it. Apple will fix or replace it for free. They swapped out a 9 month old mini when the HD wouldn't test correctly no questions asked, and it wasn't under AC either.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    11. Re: wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? Do you even keyboard?

    12. Re:wrong by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      It kind of sounds more like a mechanical problem with the butterfly switch than an electrical problem. At least the fix is the same in either case though. Just $700 or so for a new top case, and the metal shaving or piece of dust or whatever is no longer a problem.

      Interestingly, I just replaced the top case on my Macbook a couple weeks ago. The Control key was sticking (electrically) in the "on" position. Made the computer pretty worthless when I couldn't even log in (because half the letters in my password were being interpreted as ctrl-foo keyboard shortcuts).

      Part cost: $90 on eBay -- and that was for brand new, genuine Apple replacement. Not knock-off or a used top case scavenged from another machine.

      It did take three hours of my (rather unskilled) time to practically disassemble the entire computer so I could move it over to the new top case.
      What labor rate are you using for that $700 figure again?

    13. Re:wrong by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      Totally, because spending two grand on a computer and expecting it to actually work as advertised is quite pretentious. While your suggestion is a perfectly acceptable temporary work-around, when someone is paying a premium price for such a device from a company who is all about style and "high endyness" this shouldn't be an issue.

    14. Re:wrong by Megane · · Score: 1

      Ever since the Unibody era laptops, the keyboard is screwed to the top case, and you have to remove almost everything else to get to it. And when you do get everything out of the way, you have to remove the backlight (a piece of black plastic with some LEDs on it) and 70 or so tiny screws. You could spend over an hour just taking the old keyboard out. Is it any wonder they'd rather replace the entire top case?

      Then you could get a replacement keyboard with problems. I replaced the keyboard in my 17" late-2011 when most of the middle row died, and while the replacement keyboard was only $15, the bent wires that are part of the support for the space bar are apparently a teensy bit wrong, so it doesn't always bounce back up properly. And some of the top row keys, especially ESC, have to be hit just right. But being able to type on it at all is still a lot better than it was before.

      And now they're using a new THINNER keyboard, so it's going to have all new mechanical problems! Shut up already and have the courage to embrace the THIN!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    15. Re:wrong by Cederic · · Score: 1

      What the fuck? Why not just fix the one broken key?

    16. Re: wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      13 screws of the backlight removal. Obviously you are WELL INFORMED, and have completed that repair many times, like me.

    17. Re:wrong by UBfusion · · Score: 1

      At last I understood what the butterfly effect is! You are a genius!

    18. Re:wrong by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I'm using the number quoted in The Fucking Article. I know it's a stretch to assume that anyone is going to read that before commenting, so here, I'll paste that part for you:

      If Apple decides to replace the keyboard, it sends out the computer to replace the entire top case; there is no such thing as replacing an individual key or just the keyboard. On a Macbook Pro, the top case retails for $700, but the computers haven’t been around long enough for anyone to be out of warranty yet. In regular MacBooks, which were first available in the spring of 2015, Apple has quoted as much $330 to replace a top case out of warranty. The path from "a piece of dust" to "$700 repair" is terrifyingly short.

      Also, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here, this sounds like it's for the latest model of their laptops, which can be a little confusing to search for because it sounds like people have to specify the year to find their actual model.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    19. Re:wrong by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      Apple computers come with a 1 year warranty, that's why there was no charge for your 9-month-old mini. Apple Care extends the warranty further.

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    20. Re:wrong by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Totally, because spending two grand on a computer and expecting it to actually work as advertised is quite pretentious.

      I didn't say anything about expecting a computer to "actually work", I spoke only to the nonsense about claiming that such a trivial problem would "lay the computer out".

      As for 'as advertised', when is the last time you saw an advertisement that said that the space bar only emits one space? You're playing a bit of the same hyperbole game that the blogger who complains about his computer being "laid out" for such a trivial thing is.

    21. Re:wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless of what the manufacturer claims, every product has at least two years warranty by law.

    22. Re:wrong by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      What the fuck? Why not just fix the one broken key?

      It wasn't "broken" in a way that was physically apparent. I bought the laptop from a used Mac vendor, and the machine seemed to work fine when I got it. The issue started to happen, only occasionally, after a few months (so, coincidentally after my warranty ended). The only hint there was an issue was the Command key on the left near Control was very noisy compared to the rest of the keys. But they all worked fine at the start. Normally when it tripped up a couple hard taps on the left Command key would "unstick" the Control function. The keys themselves are not sticking, as I said. It was just acting like it was held down.

      When the issue started to really become a bother I pried off the key caps and realized a previous owner had spilled cola in that area of the keyboard. I tried to clean it up with alcohol tipped Q-tips, but that's all I could do. These keyboards can't really be disassembled on a per-key level. Under the cap it's the hinge the cap snaps onto, a rubber dome button, and layers of thin plastic and metal. There was nothing you could see damaged to fix.

      It looked better after I cleaned it, but the malfunctioning issue continues to get worse over time. It's not really possible to replace just the keyboard. It's part of the top case and glued into place. You can get keyboards by themselves from salvage people. They will go for $25-$30 for my machine. But people who have tried to replace the just keyboard portion have had mixed results since they are disassembling a part that is not made to be taken apart. Is it cheaper than a entire top case? Yes. But you have to do all the same steps as a top case replacement, and then some more, to replace the keyboard in the case. With fit and finish issues it's not really worth the extra effort verses just getting the entire top case.

    23. Re:wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there was a loose screw, do you think there could also have been a nut loose behind the keyboard?

  3. A sign of times by ArturoBandini77 · · Score: 1

    Once you had well qualified, well payed personal, pretty much everywhere.
    Now you have "put the Engineer hat" underplayed personal, using the Chewbacca defence.
    For a product costing more every "release".

    Welcome to the current economy.

    1. Re:A sign of times by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the things I've learned working in retail; it's better to bullshit than admit ignorance. One gets into a whole realm of magic words and phrases to keep peevish customers from going into asshole mode, and plausible excuses are an important tool. Even if an employee develops a thick skin, the store's customer satisfaction surveys will not.

      Think about how many religious people believe "We don't know what happened before the big bang." is a weakness in the theory, or indeed a weakness lurking behind all cosmological science.

      In any case, the article says the apple employees were almost certainly correct, so I dunno what you're referring to.

    2. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Think about how many religious people believe "We don't know what happened before the big bang." is a weakness in the theory, or indeed a weakness lurking behind all cosmological science.

      As a religious person, I've never understood this. Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed." Isn't that what Genesis says? I would think that "Science can't explain what happened before that" isn't a weakness to either science or religion.

    3. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you had well qualified, well payed personal, pretty much everywhere.
      Now you have "put the Engineer hat" underplayed personal, using the Chewbacca defence.
      For a product costing more every "release".

      Welcome to the current economy.

      Welcome to the English language.

      I would comment on your post, but I'm busy cleaning up puke from my grammar checker. Hope this shit doesn't get stuck under my keyboard...

    4. Re: A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "article" was written by someone that doesn't understand technology.

      There's no fucking way it was dust. Dust isn't conductive enough to trigger keyboard traces, the plastic sheets are (mostly) sealed, and there's a delay on long key presses before a repeat starts.

      Anyone who would suggest "dust" given his symptoms is a moron.

    5. Re:A sign of times by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      The primary weakness in science and religion is that neither camp has leadership that can swallow their pride long enough to admit there's a possible correlation here.

    6. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think about how many religious people believe "We don't know what happened before the big bang." is a weakness in the theory, or indeed a weakness lurking behind all cosmological science.

      As a religious person, I've never understood this. Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed." Isn't that what Genesis says? I would think that "Science can't explain what happened before that" isn't a weakness to either science or religion.

      Let's put aside the the fabulous biblical tales describing inexplicable, unrepeatable events for a moment. When comparing two groups who both hold theories pertaining to Life, The Universe, and Everything, the timeline tends to stand out like a sore thumb.

      Perhaps this is why society continues to distance itself from religion, and fall back on their choose-the-most-likely-to-be-correct instructions left over from testing days of yore. Fanaticism also creates distance, but feels more like getting boxing lessons from Mike Tyson.

    7. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed."

      No scientist in their right mind would say that, since by the standard model, time itself was created with the big bang, so there was never "a point in time" at which nothing existed. It doesn't make sense to ask for the "before". So please check your statements, especially when you're trying to speak for science.

      Now, the main difference in this matter between science and religion appears to be that religion actually sees it the way you described, i.e. "at some point nothing (except time itself) existed, then some intelligence appeared and created everything else", while science goes the "we don't know, we can't fundamentally find out, therefore speculating in this direction means leaving the bounds of science". There's a slim hope that once we have the right model, going back to t=0 and looking at what's going on COULD provide us with some understanding about how the big bang came to be in ways that we can't anticipate yet.

      Either way, pretty big difference, if you ask me.

    8. Re:A sign of times by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There may have once been nothing, not even a substrate or set of laws from which things could emerge. This idea breaks causality. There may always have been something, or at least a substrate or set of laws from which things could emerge. This idea breaks causality. The universe can't possibly have begun, and the universe can't possibly have always existed. Yet here we are.

      Scientists don't claim to know why, which many religious people consider a sign of weakness. Religious people claim they do know why, which many scientists consider a weakness. One thing I think we can all agree on is that Apple's design philosophy sucks.

    9. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      I'd say the primary weakness of religion is that whatever is believed in is by definition untangible/undetectable/unprovable/etc, while the primary weakness in science is that you can never know whether your model is right, you can only be so sure.

      What you mention is MAYBE a small weakness, but even then the correlation doesn't go that far; see my reply to AC)

    10. Re:A sign of times by Immerman · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah. Genesis just implies it happened about 14 billion years more recently. If you're willing to accept the bible as period-appropriate ancient fairytales constructed to convey deeper spiritual truths, rather than as a literal record of events, then yeah, there are a *lot* fewer conflicts. Unfortunately that interpretation also tends to rob the clergy of much of their political power, and so you don't see it expressed much within organized religion.

      Also, incidentally, there are some theories that assert nothing is still all that exists in aggregate - it's just been divided up in such a way that the pieces no longer cancel out. As a gross oversimplification: gravitational potential energy is all negative - we only see gravitational "holes" that things fall towards, not "hills" that they fall away from. And the positive mass-energy of the "stuff" creating the "holes" would perfectly cancel out the negative energy created by the "hole" itself. Shove the entire universe - space, time, mass, and energy, into a sufficiently powerful blender and hit "frappe", and the whole of it will combine back into non-existence.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:A sign of times by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Society doesn't continue to distance itself from religion.. It drifts this way and that way, embracing all sorts of reasons for phenomena that seem unexplained.

      It's a mistake for younger people to always think we are on the cusp of a breakthrough. Your dumb parents were WRONG and THIS IS IT NOW.

      But if it helps you cope with the complexity, believe what you wish.

    12. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      where does the number 42 fit in?

    13. Re:A sign of times by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Plenty of prominent scientists throughout history have made that claim, in fact many even ascribe their insights to divine revelation or inspiration. That didn't stop the Church from doing everything it could to silence them.

      I would say that the real conflict is the fact that *organized* religion mostly bases it's power on ignorance - a well-educated flock is far less likely to unquestioningly accept the shepherd's word on anything not directly related to the spiritual realm. Even a solid Bible education is often discouraged, and as an intelligent, well-educated, and spiritual individual I've been astounded at the way preachers can read a passage from the Bible, and then twist it around to make a point exactly opposite to what the words actually say - it's something I've noticed in almost every sermon I've ever listened to.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the Vatican these days accepts the evidence that the universe is over 13 billion years old and that the story of Genesis isn't a literal timeline, those "young Earth" people are a minority subset. Do a little research and you'll be surprised at how progressive the Catholic Church has become in recent decades regarding science.

    15. Re: A sign of times by Immerman · · Score: 1

      You don't need to trigger keyboard traces you just need to momentarily *interrupt* a legitimate triggering so that it's recognized as two sequential presses rather than one.

      Still seems unlikely to be dust, especially if it's a consistent problem, but a dirty keyboard can show a lot of strange behaviors.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:A sign of times by lhowaf · · Score: 1

      No. The article says a piece of dust could possibly cause a dead key - not a repeating key. The complaint, though, is that a piece of dust could require the owner to pay for a $700 repair (after the warranty runs out). That's just stupid.

    17. Re:A sign of times by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Between 41 and 43, unless you're a C programmer.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    18. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then some intelligence appeared

      I think you miss the point of an eternal god. Like you say "it doesn't make sense to ask for the 'before' the big bang". Just as it doesn't make sense for god at some point to 'appear' if it is eternal. It was always there. Saying there is no time before the big bang is the same as saying there was a before god or that god appeared from nothing.

      However, if time is not limited to the universe then an outside viewer would understand a concept of 'before the big bang'. If god is eternal then it always was. If it wasn't then it isn't god.

      IIUC, the standard model does allow for something to happen from nothing or from virtual particles. https://www.scientificamerican...

      In either case, honestly both positions sound about the same; "in the beginning there was nothing and god created existence" vs "there was nothing and then a big bang that created existence". The only difference is how they got to those statements and the supporting evidence.

    19. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The holey books say god always existed. They also say things like the earth rests on pillars and has a dome. And that brackish water can't exist.

    20. Re: A sign of times by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Anyone who would suggest "dust" given his symptoms is a moron.

      Wait, hold up, are you trying to tell me that the people running diagnostic software and quoting from official company scripts at the Apple store do not literally possess genius-level IQs?

      HEY EVERYONE, WE'VE BEEN LIED TO!

      I'm not sure if that was really the point of the article though. I'm pretty sure that the point was that, whatever the tiny cause of the problem was, whether a defect in the incredibly delicate butterfly switch, or something shorting out something else, the fix is to spend around $700 (once the warranty expires, anyway) to replace half the case. It's kind of stupid to design a keyboard where the individual keys are not serviceable. I think that was the point of the article, not trying to technically diagnose what the specific cause was in this one instance.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    21. Re:A sign of times by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make sense to ask for the "before". So please check your statements, especially when you're trying to speak for science.

      The 'standard' model is a physics model, not a theoretical cosmology model.

      Further, the big bang does not say anything about what came before, but it is assumed there was a before, just not in any way we can (currently) measure. To say there was nothing would mean that there was no event A leading to event B. Causality is a thing.

      while science goes the "we don't know, we can't fundamentally find out, therefore speculating in this direction means leaving the bounds of science".

      Is that what science goes.....? Or is it more like "Well... we don't know EVERYTHING, but we know a lot, and anyway, it's better than praying to Angry-Grandpa-In-The-Sky....."

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    22. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      Okay, then the god always existed, that "appears" was just a detail that doesn't change my point in any way -- yes, on a high enough level it looks the same (in the sense that something happened that made (or ultimately caused) our planet/universe to become what it is now), but IMHO that's about where the similarity ends.

      If god is eternal then it always was. If it wasn't then it isn't god.

      I don't know -- didn't the ancient greek believ in gods that occasionally reproduced, creating more gods? (I'm really not sure if i'm remembering this right). That would mean the concept of 'god' doesn't necessarily imply that it's always been there.

      [Science's position is] "there was nothing and then a big bang that created existence"

      I think you're still misrepresenting that, because there was no point at which there was nothing. According to the current model anyway. I'm pretty sure that when scientists think about possible root causes of the big bang, they're perfectly aware that they have left the realm of science.

      Science observes, tried to predict, and deals with things the way they appear to be.
      Religion comes up with something unfalsifyable (which is diagonally opposed to THE core principle of science) and assumes that they got it right. Nobody can prove them wrong after all. I see literally no similarity, and as initially said, the correlation ends at the fact that both scientists and religious people agree that our planet/the universe (i'd say "everything", but an eternal god would of course be except) probably had some sort of beginning. News at t=11.

    23. Re:A sign of times by tibit · · Score: 1

      Perhaps causality is only a characteristic of our Universe. Perhaps, elsewhere, it's optional, and if you think it up, it becomes. Who knows and, frankly, who cares.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    24. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 0

      Who knows and, frankly, who cares.

      My point exactly. Though, religious people care, and act like they know. Ironically in hundreds of contradicting ways. But perhaps logical coherence too is optional outside this universe...

    25. Re:A sign of times by cb88 · · Score: 0

      Actually no, God Biblically originates and exists outside of time and is unchanging with respect to it, the Bible says quite a few things that reinforces this idea.

      So its more like God exists outside of time and space and matter for that matter. God is the origin of all of our known reality including time. So as a Christian scientist you might say existence began, instead of some confusing nonsense about "before time" as its more like outside of time.

      Also, Christianity has the idea of the eternal soul, which is probably at least part of what is refereed to when the Bible says God created us in his image. As such we also in some way exist outside of space an time.

    26. Re:A sign of times by cb88 · · Score: 1

      Literal yes, but not with respect to periods of time. You'll find a lot of more independent Christians think this way... some of us even view organized religion, beyond the local group/church, as perverse as such organization is power seeking which is by definition evil.

    27. Re: A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Itâ(TM)s often described that way by non scientists, but the meaning is âoeWe have no understanding of or ability to predict what happened before this point. So for purposes of this theory, that time didnâ(TM)t exist.â Very few practicing physicists actually believe that literally nothing happened before cosmic inflation.

      Similarly, Christianity/Judaism (I donâ(TM)t know about Islam but Iâ(TM)d guess itâ(TM)s the same) do not say that nothing existed before Yahweh. They say that Yahweh exists outside of the timeline. If you think of time as a physical dimension with Yahweh standing orthogonal to it (figuratively speaking) that might help give some understanding of their theological position (disclaimer: I am an atheist and donâ(TM)t believe in Yahweh or any other gods). And that Yahweh creates (not created, since that implies time) the timeline.

      Furthermore, even if both sides did literally claim âoethere was nothing and then there was somethingâ, science at least just says that and nothing else. Christianity adds on âoebecause Yahweh did itâ which only adds more questions (where did he come from) and makes the proposition less likely in the absence of any evidence one way or the other.

    28. Re:A sign of times by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      > Science says "there was a point in time

      Nope, you're already wrong, On that last word there. It's called space*time* for a reason.

    29. Re:A sign of times by lgw · · Score: 2

      I'd say the primary weakness of religion is that whatever is believed in is by definition untangible/undetectable/unprovable/etc,

      I think you've mistaken the point of religion. The belief that it's better to wait to have kinds until after you're married is certainly measurable and testable, as are beliefs like "delaying gratification will get you ahead in the long run" and "it's good to keep a month's supply of necessities hidden away".

      Looking to religion for scientific statements is as silly as looking to science for a moral code, and certainly isn't the reason religions persisted for millennia. You have to be a certain kind of nuts to think that e.g. it matters to the point of the story of Cain and Able whether two brothers with those names actually existed.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    30. Re:A sign of times by lgw · · Score: 1

      The most sensible interpretation of "eternal" in theology is "existing in a time separate from our own". An eternal god creating both time and space would be analogous to starting a simulation - time in the simulation is just unrelated to you wall-clock time.

      Science is never great at "why" questions (Feynman as a fun rant about that). Saying "God did it" may have no practical predictive value, but many find it emotionally satisfying.

      BTW, science also rests on a set of unprovable assumptions such as "deduction works", "induction works", and "sense data is somewhat reliable". The most you can say is that it seems like the minimal set of unprovable assumptions.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    31. Re:A sign of times by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Well, then you do have a real conflict, because taken literally the Bible is just flat out wrong on a large number of subjects, and to claim otherwise you must reject the basic tenets of science.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    32. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      An eternal god creating both time and space would be analogous to starting a simulation - time in the simulation is just unrelated to you wall-clock time.

      Yep -- and (to re-use your words from your other reply) you have to be kind of nuts if you believe that the simulated entities will, after they're deallocated, somehow migrate from the simulation into the "real" world that runs the simulator.

      Saying "God did it" may have no practical predictive value, but many find it emotionally satisfying.

      Yes, I guess that's true.

      BTW, science also rests on a set of unprovable assumptions such as "deduction works", "induction works", and "sense data is somewhat reliable". The most you can say is that it seems like the minimal set of unprovable assumptions.

      Good point -- however at least they're not unfalsifiable; and the moment it turns out that, say, deduction in fact doesn't work, you can expect science to shit bricks, deal with it, and start from scratch. Obviously not going to happen, though, because deduction works, which I deduct from the countless cases in which deduction clearly worked :-).

    33. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That interpretation is the standard teaching of the most highly organised form of Christianity, and also (I believe) the richest. The others just aren't trying.

    34. Re:A sign of times by cfalcon · · Score: 0

      > Perhaps causality is only a characteristic of our Universe.

      There's still a point of crossover, though. If the universe came literally from nothing, then why aren't multiple universes spawning in our sinks all the time? There's gotta be some nothing around still, right? What, exactly, are the rules of this nothing?

      It all becomes a philosophical (or, if you are so inclined, religious) point, and not one able to be resolved with our current understanding (or possibly any future understanding, who knows). If the model of physics goes back to a certain point and then basically says "before this point we don't know what rules were present, to say nothing of matter or energy", then that's leaving everything "before" or "outside" of that open to literally anything. It doesn't preclude special creation, it doesn't preclude a mechanic process whose rules we can't glean, it doesn't preclude the idea that everything is a simulation- it doesn't do anything useful. You can assume that whatever was at that time isn't relevant, because even if everything was preordained by the ordering of twenty five shiny blue apple seeds, we'd have no way to test, observe, or predict- we can act as if, scientifically speaking, that space and time don't exist.

      But that doesn't mean that science is stating that- it just means that we should assume that, scientifically, because we have no reason not to.

    35. Re:A sign of times by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It also goes out of its way to avoid the question of whether it's OK to eat kangaroos.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    36. Re:A sign of times by operagost · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I'm surprised I had to read this far down to find the ignorant troll.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    37. Re:A sign of times by cfalcon · · Score: 0

      > the Bible says quite a few things that reinforces this idea

      I mean, the Bible says a lot of things. There's only some things that are so plain and obvious that they have been faithfully and clearly translated, and there's way way more that you can walk into with some prior thought relevant to our society and find some parts that discuss it and don't overtly dispute it. But this is like "God's Daughter"- if you read the Bible assuming that God had a son and a daughter, you won't find anything disputing the existence of the daughter, and you may have some great ideas about why she isn't mentioned- but the moment you talk to someone who doesn't believe that, they'll be digging through, trying to find the oldest usage of the words used to describe Jesus, trying to find something that implies or states, in some way, that the Bible does, in fact, preclude that. Maybe there are documents that wouldn't be subject to this effect, but the Bible is assuredly not one of them.

    38. Re:A sign of times by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      You know I was following right along until you said "at some point nothing (except time itself) existed", because time didn't exist as you'd just said. Time and space go together, if you don't have space you don't have time either. Time started when space started with the big bang. This is a very difficult problem in science because unless someone can devise a way of figuring out what happened before the big bang by looking at the current universe it's a pretty insolvable problem because what existed if anything was outside our universe. There are theories of course, Hawking famously speculated that the events of a blackhole formation appears to be very similar in nature to a big bang within the blackhole, something that's likely not ever knowable.

    39. Re:A sign of times by netizen_james · · Score: 0

      Causality is a thing. But that doesn't meant that there cannot be causeless events. Take a SINGLE atom of polonium-210. We know that at SOME point, that single atom will emit an an alpha-particle and become lead-206. We know that in a very large quantity of such atoms, half of them will decay to lead in roughly 139 days. But we're talking about ONE single atom of polonium-210. Whoops- there it went. Now it's lead-206. What CAUSED that event? Oh sure, it decayed because the 210 configuration is 'unstable'. But what CAUSED that atom to decay at THAT time? Anything? Or is that an event without a cause? And if that event is causeless, that means any event can be causeless, and just because something happened, we can't presume there was a cause. As far as I can tell, BigBangs are how the multiverse reproduces. The formation of a black hole in one universe creates a 'daughter' universe. The 'expansion' period of the new universe corresponds to [matter/energy] 'falling into' the black hole from the parent universe. (time is merely a measure of entropy, and need not be consistent between universes) Pure speculation of course, but it has a certain simplicity to it. No deities necessary.

    40. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      I recommend re-reading the comment you're replying to, especially the immediate context of the "at some point ..." you're on about, while also being extra careful not to miss quotation marks.

      That said, it should be pretty clear from my comment that I'm perfectly aware of your breaking news "Time and space go together".

      It looks like you should slow down your reading a good deal. HTH

    41. Re:A sign of times by netizen_james · · Score: 1
      And if someone ever provides anything even close to empirical evidence for a 'soul', that will be the first time. No, there is zero evidence for 'souls', or spirits, or ghosts, or angels, or demons, or deities. Nary a scrap of anything even CLOSE to empirical evidence for any of those mythical entities. One may as well presume the existence of leprechauns and unicorns.

      But yes, the 'outside of time' thing makes lots of sense within the mythological constructs of YHWH worshipers. That's the only way that 'predestination' (aka 'prophecy') can be compatible with 'free will'. God doesn't know what you're GOING to do. From God's perspective which is 'outside of time', you've already done it. That movie is in the can. Butch and Sundance had free will to surrender to the posse or jump off the cliff. But EVERY TIME you watch the movie, they jump off the cliff. Because they already did. God need not predict, merely recall.

    42. Re:A sign of times by Krishnoid · · Score: 2

      From the perspective of their relative 'policy statements', I'd think that science would say "We need to characterize 'nothing' beyond our current understanding of spacetime and matter/energy", rather than "You don't know either, so you suck" (sorry if I'm misstating this).

      Of course, humans typically identify better with the latter, which is why such arguments probably do better in the arena of public discourse. Maybe science's PR could maybe learn something from that.

    43. Re:A sign of times by omnichad · · Score: 1

      What, exactly, are the rules of this nothing?

      https://www.rifftrax.com/what-...

    44. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had many "dead" keys on keyboards. First thing you look for is some kind of crud and clean it out. THEN, if it's still dead, consider an actual repair job or replacement. These days, you replace the keyboard - they're not repairable.

      As for whether $700 is an appropriate price for a replacement keyboard, that's subject to Apple's Reality Distortion Field and the corporate need for your money in sufficient quantity to keep the quarterly profit rising. If it were not a corporate store, I might lay the price (during warranty) on a desire to rip off Apple; after the warranty runs out, it's just gouging - they want you to buy a new computer instead.

    45. Re:A sign of times by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Think about how many religious people believe "We don't know what happened before the big bang." is a weakness in the theory, or indeed a weakness lurking behind all cosmological science.

      As a religious person, I've never understood this. Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed." Isn't that what Genesis says? I would think that "Science can't explain what happened before that" isn't a weakness to either science or religion.

      Genesis also says it was 'the Gods', plural.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    46. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bit of drunken tomfoolery happened before the big bang. You're welcome.

    47. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're really reaching with that theory of gravity holes. Everything is just falling towards everything else.

    48. Re: A sign of times by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      > There's no fucking way it was dust.

      No, it was probably biological grime. Congealed Dr. Pepper, some Chinese sauce that dropped in there. Gods help you if it was protein-based. What should the Apple people say? "Dust" is a deflection AWAY from the consumer that inevitably drips coffee or doughnut into their keyboard in small pieces every day. The net effect is "lets clean under the keys" for normally built keyboards, and a huge issue for the topic of the article.

      I run a keyboard with removable keys, and I occasionally remove and wash them. When I do this, the area UNDER the key is filled with deritus consistent with a devices that comes in contact with HANDS for hours each day. I clean that out too. Because the keyboard is built for functionality, not merely fashion, I could probably go for years or decades before the accumulated filth made it fail physically, if I stopped cleaning it. But an Apple keyboard doesn't have that failsafe, nor does it have an appealing way to clean it (according to the article, there's like NO way to clean it- it's a huge design fail).

    49. Re:A sign of times by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      One of the things I've learned working in retail; it's better to bullshit than admit ignorance.

      Really?

      I know that when I'm being bullshitted by people in retail, I simply won't be coming back. If they admit ignorance instead of making stuff up, I will.

      But perhaps retail workers like the idea of reducing the number of customers (and thus their workload).

    50. Re:A sign of times by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed."

      To be pedantic about it, "science" doesn't say there was a time when nothing existed. "Science" says we don't know what was going on prior to the big bang.

    51. Re:A sign of times by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Science properly has no comment about things that cannot be tested. Therefore, a statement like "there's a possible correlation between science and religion" is not a scientific statement, it's a philosophical one.

    52. Re:A sign of times by JohnFen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Looking to religion for scientific statements is as silly as looking to science for a moral code, and certainly isn't the reason religions persisted for millennia.

      Yes, this.

      Or, as I like to put it... science is trying to answer the questions of "what" and "how", religion is trying to answer the question of "why".

    53. Re: A sign of times by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      The "article" was written by someone that doesn't understand technology.

      There's no fucking way it was dust. Dust isn't conductive enough to trigger keyboard traces, the plastic sheets are (mostly) sealed, and there's a delay on long key presses before a repeat starts.

      Anyone who would suggest "dust" given his symptoms is a moron.

      They are Apple Store Geniuses so that's an oxymoron right there.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    54. Re:A sign of times by haruchai · · Score: 1

      It may be that universes can't spawn inside an existing one and that others may be popping into existence outside our own

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    55. Re:A sign of times by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Science says...

      And here is where you go wrong. Science is merely a method for finding the most accurate explanations. So one person's 'science says...' isn't a declaration of truth as with religion. It is a declaration of a possible explanation for an observation, along with all the information you need to independently validate or invalidate it.
      Any person has the ability to challenge this information and replace it with a more accurate explanation.

      Isn't that what Genesis says?

      No because Religion says I am right and if you disagree you'll die a horrible death. So you better do what I say and give me money and let me rape your kids.
      No-one can ever question it, and there is conveniently no way to independently test any of it. It always exists 100% within the gap of current knowledge so as to avoid any real scrutiny.

      The two concepts are the complete opposite of each other.

    56. Re: A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a fucking moron. Religion doesn't claim time existed before the Big Bang. Here's a clue Einstein: look into Father Lemaitre and learn about his essential contribution to physics. Dumbass.

    57. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corrupted by Jesuits.

    58. Re:A sign of times by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The difference is that current science requires a bit of pretty featureless mass energy to kick the whole thing off, then makes consistent, testable predictions from that point on, allowing us to build things like bridges, vaccines and stupid smartphone apps.

      Genesis requires an omnipotent creator and doesn't really have any particular consistent explanatory, predictive, or even practical use beyond scaring children.

    59. Re:A sign of times by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      " working in retail" not just retail! I always have a print-out of the best excuses from the BOfH taped to my office wall, and use it ALL THE TIME when lusers come up and ask me "why is X not working?" since the actual answer is often far too technical for them to comprehend. Statistically, "solar flares" is probably the most-used. Second-most used is blaming whatever new software the corporate office has forced me to implement.

    60. Re: A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      You're a fucking moron.

      Ok.

      Religion doesn't claim time existed before the Big Bang.

      So you're saying religion claims that time was created at the big bang?

      Here's a clue Einstein: look into Father Lemaitre and learn about his essential contribution to physics.

      No.

      Dumbass.

      Ok *pats head*.

    61. Re:A sign of times by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      and maybe, in 5 milliseconds our universe will collide with another along the 7th dimensional axis, obliterating both.

      Sleep well.

    62. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the things I've learned working in retail; it's better to bullshit than admit ignorance. One gets into a whole realm of magic words and phrases to keep peevish customers from going into asshole mode, and plausible excuses are an important tool.

      That's so funny. I go into asshole mode precisely at the moment the salesperson starts to bullshit. You devalue me so I'll devalue you.. And it's not pretty because you're paid to stand there. Now if you get back to reality and stick with the limits of what you know, asshole mode turns off just as quickly. Can't imagine why most customers don't respond the same way.

    63. Re:A sign of times by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      The difference is though if ever any single shred of evidence can offer even a hint that what the bible (or any religious text) says might be true then it would be considered and investigated. As it happens there isn't and doesn't really look like there ever will be. Also, science doesn't say there was nothing and then there was everything, it says we don't know.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    64. Re: A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a non religious person, I never understood how every culture can have a damn creation myth, each of which contradicts every other, and they're all correct simultaneously to those who believe.

      Well, whose is the right one? Eh??? Please let it be the Egyptian one. They recorded it first, probably, so it has to be right.

    65. Re:A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science says "there was a point in time when nothing existed, and then everything existed."

      Not quite. There was a point, an infinitesimal speck, that contained everything. The concept of time had no meaning with the universe in this state. Some guy named Stephen Hawking wrote about it.

    66. Re:A sign of times by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      Science does not say "there was nothing and then a big bang that created existence"; it says "everything was in one place before it started spreading out". That is a theory that can be tested by observation (the true difference between science and religion). So far, it has held up.

    67. Re:A sign of times by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Causality is already broken in modern physics.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    68. Re: A sign of times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's not what the theory says.

    69. Re:A sign of times by lgw · · Score: 1

      however at least they're not unfalsifiable

      Think about that some more.

      You cannot falsify the statement "deduction works". Do you see why? Induction may be less obvious, but it's in the same boat.

      deduction works, which I deduct from the countless cases in which deduction clearly worked

      Ah, because memory works?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    70. Re:A sign of times by fisted · · Score: 1

      Do you see why?

      No.

      deduction works, which I deduct from the countless cases in which deduction clearly worked

      Nice job there intentionally omitting the smiley from my statement that labeled it as a joke.

      Ah, because memory works?

      Yes.

    71. Re:A sign of times by tsa · · Score: 1

      Organized religion has all to do with power and not much with religion.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    72. Re:A sign of times by lgw · · Score: 1

      In order to disprove - falsify - something, you need some sort of system of logic under which statements can be proven or disproven. The statement "deduction doesn't work" can never be proven, as you need deduction to do so.

      In fact, we know deduction doesn't work (to a more narrow extent: it sometimes doesn't work) thanks to Godel.

      An example of induction completely failing us is the discovery of dark matter - 80 or so years after hard problems like general relativity and quantum mechanics. Physic was quite mature before someone noticed that we has just missed 80% of matter. Oops. But that's the fundamental limitation of induction.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  4. Apple Pixie Dust by bjb_admin · · Score: 1

    He meant to say Apple Pixie Dust!

    1. Re:Apple Pixie Dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that the same stuff that powers the reality distortion field?

    2. Re:Apple Pixie Dust by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      A whole lot of Zen bullshit powers the RDF.

      Jobs spent a lot of time seriously studying that bullshit in order to adapt it into a psuedo-religion that his marketing people could use.

    3. Re:Apple Pixie Dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The RDF is powered by the cries of users as the iDildo rips their asshole open.

  5. Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    All those purty transparent keyboards of theirs rapidly turn into hideous festivals of dust and hairs, and getting them apart and back together again is way more difficult than average. I see them all the time at thrift stores and the like, and wish I hadn't.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by hackertourist · · Score: 1

      Those transparent keyboards that were last sold something like 15 years ago?

    2. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by perpenso · · Score: 1

      If you see one of those white opaque keyboards that followed the transparents buy it, its far better than anything Apple has offered in many years.

    3. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're reading this right now, flip your keyboard over and bang it on the desk a few times. You'll be left with a huge pile of dandruff, food crumbs, and other of the foulest substances imaginable.

      A public toilet bowl is probably a lot cleaner than the average office keyboard.

    4. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Yeah... as much as I am an Apple fan, I really hate my new iMac's keyboard.

      Don't get me wrong-- I love the built-in battery, lightning charging, integrated numeric keypad... and the shape isn't bad.

      But without auto-correct I would never stand a chance at anything I type being understandable... and the moron that eliminated the bottom-left function key should be shot. The keys and layout are a huge step backwards in typing accuracy from the original cordless keyboard with two AA batteries.

    5. Re: Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can confirm. I do this weekly. Except instead of food I always get weed shake lol. If it wasn't filled with dust and dirt I'd smoke it.

    6. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by lerxstz · · Score: 1

      4 AA batteries actually (on the original). And the keyboard consumed them like there was no tomorrow. Nice keyboard, but lousy on the power consumption side.

      --
      I chose to end my comments, not with a rim shot, but a long decaying F#7sus4
    7. Re: Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Save it til you have enough for a butane extraction. Waste not, want not.

    8. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Er, yeah. That could be why they turn up in thrift stores.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Apple thinks nothing of bad keyboards by mmdurrant · · Score: 1
      Worked at a large state agency in Idaho. User complained of malfunctioning keyboard. Was advised to "replace with a new one and clean the old one".

      Nearly vomited at the 10+ years of accumulated nastiness and threw the keyboard out post-haste.

      --
      I see my shadow changing, stretching up and over me...
  6. I think I know the problem by nomadic · · Score: 5, Funny

    Mac laptops are designed for a very specific operating environment -- sitting in a coffee shop and "working on your screenplay" while desperately hoping the cute hipster girl at the next table over asks you what you're working on, so you can casually mention your screenplay. You probably weren't doing that, thus it's your fault.

    1. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Haha! Tired cliche! Ancient repetitive humorless humor!

    2. Re:I think I know the problem by computational+super · · Score: 1

      I laughed.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    3. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was meant for stuff that didn't involve typing. So maybe working on your music at a hipster coffee bar? I use my Mac laptop for development and yeah, the keyboards don't hold up. At all.

    4. Re:I think I know the problem by tbuddy · · Score: 0

      Little tired, but Apple doesn't build products for work on an oil field like some of the Panasonic toughbooks. They also don't make a wired keyboard that doesn't suck anymore. Not saying other companies chiclet style keys don't work, but Apple often puts form aside in favor of aesthetics. Not gonna stop using their desktops, but it has been a thing and that was way before Tim Cook took over.

    5. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet the best comedy has its basis in the truth.

    6. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Mac laptops are designed for a very specific operating environment -- sitting in a coffee shop and "working on your screenplay" while desperately hoping the cute hipster girl at the next table over asks you what you're working on, so you can casually mention your screenplay. You probably weren't doing that, thus it's your fault.

      20+ years PC users have had a gripe with Apple products. It's time to let it go.

      If you don't like Apple products don't buy them and don't comment on articles related to them. It simply makes you like like a twit.

    7. Re: I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are PC users. Looking like a twit is what they do best. Donâ(TM)t take that away from them.

    8. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternatively you could let people do and say as they please and then perhaps you wouldn't come off a an ever bigger twit.

    9. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not tired and not a cliche, it's pretty damn close to reality. Real professionals don't use a Mac unless you're doing marketing/sales or graphic design and don't need to work with or collaborate with anyone else. In my world, the only people I see using Macs are those who don't need to work with anyone else or they are guest speakers, who also don't work with anyone else.

      Show me just one single engineer, executive, accountant, IT professional (a real IT professional, not someone working in a Mac only house), receptionist, receiving/shipping department, customer service department, point of sales system, etc running on a Mac and I'll show you 100s of thousands more that don't use a Mac for each and every single example you give. Mac in the real world of getting actual work done just doesn't really exist for the most part.

    10. Re:I think I know the problem by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Haha! Tired cliche! Ancient repetitive humorless humor!

      Huh, odd. For some reason I'm picturing you on a Shakespearean stage reciting this response, as the audience tries to ignore that coffee stain on your tights...

    11. Re:I think I know the problem by Khyber · · Score: 0

      "It's time to let it go."

      Yes, it's time to let blatant false advertising, hypocrisy, and over-priced under-performing hardware have a pass.

      Go fuck yourself, Apple shill.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    12. Re:I think I know the problem by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Alternatively you could let people do and say as they please and then perhaps you wouldn't come off a an ever bigger twit.

      It would not be smart for the human race to try and silence Wisdom or Common Sense, no matter how unpopular both may be with the IDGAF YOLO generation.

      Doing so would leave Experience as the only teacher, which would invariably cause an exponential increase in Darwin Award winners.

    13. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry everybody, for the next macbook, Apple will completely remove the keyboard and replace it with an optional $300 wireless microphone.

    14. Re:I think I know the problem by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      We had an engineer, decades ago now, who insisted on using a Mac SE as his main computer at work. When the company wouldn't buy him one, he brought one in from home. It really wasn't useful for much engineering-wise, but said engineer was sort of a crank, so it kept him out of the way.

    15. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple doesn't build products for work on an oil field like some of the Panasonic toughbooks.

      Ahh, but the "unitized" Macbooks are the most rugged laptop! /s

       

      Apple often puts form aside in favor of aesthetics.

      I think that you meant to say, "Apple puts function aside in favor of aesthetics (form)."

      Apple has been doing so ever since Jobs' second coming and the arrival of Ives.

       

      Not gonna stop using their desktops, but it has been a thing and that was way before Tim Cook took over.

      The problems started early in Jobs' second coming. Now that his reality distortion field has faded, folks are starting to see Crapple for what it is.

    16. Re:I think I know the problem by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Visit a Linux conference, planet of IT pros with Mac laptops there.

    17. Re:I think I know the problem by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Are they IT Pros or are they developers? The only IT people in the room during the developer's conference are probably the people setting up the projector and making sure the red light doesn't go out again on the Wifi hub.

      IT is a separate class of people from developers: The data janitors.

      It's so sad that even on Slashdot people can't get this right. It's like a bunch of Human Resources drones have taken over the site.

    18. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Maybe we like the OS, especially those of us who happen to be developers, and wish the hardware better suited our needs so we could justify buying it. What part of that makes one look like a twit? Many of us would be just as happy (and drop the hardware complaints) if Apple simply started selling their OS; even if they left us in the cold with regard to drivers, as the community has already managed to get most things working without Apple's help. What would be nice about that, on both sides of the fence, is that Apple would begin seeing some income from us and we wouldn't have to worry about the next update breaking our shit.

      As it is now, I need something more reliable than a Hackintosh and faster than anything Apple will sell me, so OS X (sorry, macOS) is not an option, though it would be the best fit if it were.

      That's why we (at least some of us) won't let it go -- because those of us who complain don't have an optimal solution, but we see a way to make one.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    19. Re:I think I know the problem by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      When most people talk about "IT pros", they mean guys involved in programming, setting up, designing, maintaining, supporting and managing computer systems and software. Anything from a developer or network tech to an IT project manager, portfolio manager, or even enterprise architect (much as they want to consider themselves on the business side rather than IT).

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    20. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say that like it would be a bad thing...

    21. Re:I think I know the problem by Falos · · Score: 1

      Speech controls are so 2016.

      Now if you want to quit a program or change browser tab, you make a facial expression into the camera.

    22. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's time to let it go."

      Yes, it's time to let blatant false advertising, hypocrisy, and over-priced under-performing hardware have a pass.

      Go fuck yourself, Apple shill.

      Fucking malware from the competition has cost the planet a hell of a lot more than over-priced hardware ever could, so perhaps you can kindly shut the fuck up about under-performing and run another virus scan.

      - Not An Apple shill

    23. Re: I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your unable to swap out a hard drive in a MacBook I think you might be a bit challenged to even make a good cup of coffee. Also while yes you can get a $4000 Apple laptop, only a few people get those and they are the same ones that buy a $4000 pc laptop.

    24. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Time to let it go...
      Apple may be pretty, but they're products are mostly an overpriced piece of shit.
      One day you'll realize that.

      PC for the win!

      p.s. for the WIN.. get it?

    25. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a shitty developer if you like the OS. The OS is one of the worst parts of an Apple computer.

    26. Re:I think I know the problem by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Unless you're black, or Asian (literally any part - Turkey, Siberia, India, Singapore, doesn't matter), or you're using the computer in Australia or Brazil, or you're a twin, triplet, or quintuplet. Quadruplets are unaffected for some reason.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    27. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only the dumb hipster ones

    28. Re:I think I know the problem by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      said engineer was sort of a crank, so it kept him out of the way.

      Sounds like someone you should definitely employ and not fire.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    29. Re:I think I know the problem by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      When most people talk about "IT pros", they mean guys involved in programming...

      I don't think that's true. I think that when "most people" think about "IT anything" they think about the guy they call when their printer doesn't work.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    30. Re:I think I know the problem by tibit · · Score: 1

      I use a hackintosh at work. I rely on lots of Unix tools and workflows, so it's just easier that way. Solid Edge runs just fine on Windows in a VM. The mac-PC distinction is blurry at best. It's obvious that people who need to run Windows can just start up a virtual machine and call it a day.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    31. Re:I think I know the problem by tibit · · Score: 1

      To be completely frank, the only tightly integrated PC hardware comes from Microsoft in their Surface line. Those are indeed the only machines that have the Apple-like integration where everything in the hardware works cleanly and without disruptions. Every other notebook I try, and I try them just about every 2 weeks, has some hardware integration issues on the side Windows side of things. I refer to all the idiotic hundreds-of-megabytes-and-more hardware support packages that pretty much are there just to support the custom keys and controls, take ages to start up even from SSD, don't work before login, etc. Just a shitshow, and anyone who pretends that these problems aren't there clearly doesn't pay attention to what's going on. Say, like Asus gaming notebooks that consider it user-friendly not to offer keyboard backlight when you're supposed to type in your fine bitlocker password. I mean: what the fuck? This actually has never happened to me on a MacBook, and neither has any of the other fuck-upery that is commonplace in OEM integration drivers/software on Windows. Heck, there are now mainstream PC laptops that have better enthusiast-developed OS X hardware integration than the OEM provides for Windows!!

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    32. Re: I think I know the problem by tibit · · Score: 1

      How is something being soldered on a problem? You essentially insist that the most advanced tool used in repair should be your hands and some screwdrivers. No miniaturization is possible that way. Rework stations are a thing. It's 2017, replacing BGA-packaged assemblies is not advanced dark magic anymore.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    33. Re:I think I know the problem by tibit · · Score: 2

      I use a hackintosh as my main dev and engineering machine and it's just fine. It's currently on OS X 10.10.5, but I will be updating it soon to 10.11. With modern Clover the set-up is not a big deal anymore - it does require some hardware-specific tweaking, but once it's done, it's done, and then works fine across the given minor OS version. IOW, stock Apple install images work for me. So I don't quite see the reliability ever being a factor. It's not as if the whole thing somehow randomly crashes any more often than it would on well configured Windows 10. My desktop's current uptime is 32 days.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    34. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The annoying thing is that this didn't used to be true... Dieter Rams used to say that Apple was the only company that truly followed his philosophy of design, where simplicity and elegance of form emerged from function, it's a great philosophy, but somewhere along the way for Apple that transmophed into "it has to look good" almost entirely dropping the function part. It's entirely possible to have both, but it quickly devolves into a piece of faux shit when it's only the former, even worse than a ugly looking yet functional product.

    35. Re:I think I know the problem by otomoton · · Score: 1

      It will be the bravest thing they've ever done.

    36. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honest question: what do you do that the current top end iMac or MBP won't do (possibly with an external GPU box)?
      Are you considering the iMac Pro?

    37. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for your input, Tim Cook.

    38. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Good info, glad to see that things have gotten more stable in the 6 years since I played with it.

      Please let me know when stock Apple install images work on the current best-of-breed systems, which happen to run AMD. As it is now, I can't even run a Hackintosh VM on such a system without a modified kernel because the stock kernel shits itself on AMD.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    39. Re:I think I know the problem by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      Maybe we like the OS, especially those of us who happen to be developers

      Well, I'd want a possibility to port and test my free software on OS X, there are users who reported issues there and I hate deficiencies in my crap. Yet if Apple cared the slightest bit about developers, they'd promote porting to their platform.

      Free software operating systems are free, duh. And Microsoft doesn't oppose free toolchains targetting any of their platform, and they give you gratis copies of their toolchain and even some versions of their OS (such as Windows Insider Edition (has a quirk where the slowest possible update ring is faster than any commercial version, but as someone who runs Debian unstable on a -rc kernel I'm not going to complain)).

      So, am I going to buy a vastly overpriced piece of obsolete hardware just to grant unpaid help to their users? No way! I'd rather blow my toy hardware funds on a yet another ARM SoC, or, if I ever go insane, on a $6k Talos 2 (a high-end but vastly overpriced piece of Power9 goodness that, unlike anything from Intel or AMD, has no hardware backdoors).

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    40. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quick, tell Silicon Valley?

    41. Re:I think I know the problem by anegg · · Score: 2

      And it will take *courage* to remove that keyboard; but it will all be for the best.

    42. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the moment that cute hipster leans over to ask what your doing, the battery will die. so you're screwed either way.

    43. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      This is what Mac zealots don't understand. Developers have to target the primary market for their software first, which often means the Mac comes last. No developer is going to spend more on a part-time use machine that's less capable than their workstation than they spent on their more capable workstation. Their employer might, but even that seems to be restricted to Silicon Valley.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    44. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dumb hipster

      That's redundant.

    45. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Aside from house multiple m.2 and SATA SSDs and a handful of spinning disks (with hardware RAID) in a single enclosure with a single high-efficiency (93% under typical loads) power supply, nothing. I just like my work to get done faster than anything Apple sells will get it done, without a mess of cables connecting permanent external storage. The iMac Pro doesn't meet those requirements so, no, I'm not considering one.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    46. Re:I think I know the problem by nomadic · · Score: 1

      I totally did not meant to insult your screenplay. Sorry, man.

    47. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Facial expressions are so early 2017. Now I just roll my eyes. The AI interprets that as a downvote, writes a reply for me, then moves on to the next comment.

    48. Re: I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was so fucking funny. Can some non AC mod this parent up?

    49. Re:I think I know the problem by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      When I was given the approval for a new work laptop, I was going to go Mac for my Windows and Linux use... our former VP of Engineering called the Macbook (at the time) the best Windows laptop. But I do graphics work, and the programs I use are all certified to work with Nvidia, and Apple had just switched to ATI, so I ended up with a Dell XPS... however, I agree with you - I otherwise would be typing this on a Mac right now and, on the whole, don't think there'd be a huge difference.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    50. Re: I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is something being soldered on a problem?

      Because it turns a $25 repair into a $150 repair.

    51. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mac laptops are designed for a very specific operating environment -- sitting in a coffee shop

      Really? I mostly see them in Starbucks.

    52. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      coffee stain on the back?

    53. Re:I think I know the problem by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I've noticed that as an American assumption, especially here on Slashdot.

      Shit, my last employer had an IT department that ran the data centres.. and 70 development teams that wrote software but didn't live in IT.

      It makes no sense to me. Which industry are software developers in? What are the prequisites of a Chartered IT Professional?

      Not to mention how few people in non-programming IT roles do a job that good software engineers couldn't also do, if they chose.

    54. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Well, both of those configurations target a different use case. You can't carry around your enclosure, so the MBP comparison is invalid, and the iMac is effectively a monitor with a computer within it, really, which you can drop all of what your talking about into an external enclosure.

      And let's be 100% fair, the NVMe drives Apple uses are top notch, likely faster than the multiple m.2 systems (maximum dual in every case I've seen although I'm sure you'll pull something with more out of your hat;)

      But yes, Apple needs a real MacPro, which address the use case you're talking about. It's a reason I haven't bought any macs for my main desktop either.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    55. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Macs come second, Linux third in the desktop order. Although certain types of games now come on all 3 simultaneously because the toolsets exist.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    56. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      And let's be 100% fair, the NVMe drives Apple uses are top notch, likely faster than the multiple m.2 systems (maximum dual in every case I've seen although I'm sure you'll pull something with more out of your hat;)

      The reason you're not seeing any dual m.2 system faster than Apple's single m.2 systems is that Intel isn't providing enough PCIe lanes until you start looking at Xeon. Well, technically they provide more than plenty, but motherboard manufacturers are assigning them to PCIe slots, rather than m.2 slots; an Intel motherboard with dual m.2 slots is most likely to be configured to share 4 lanes across both slots, allowing a single drive to use all 4, but assigning each drive a pair of lanes in a 2 drive configuration. If you're looking at a gaming board with a pair of 16x slots, you'll be lucky to have more than 2 lanes on the m.2 slot. A Ryzen-based system will have plenty of lanes to run a pair of m.2 drives on 4 lanes each, but I'm betting you haven't benchmarked one of those in that configuration yet.

      Try to keep in mind that Apple has to buy their m.2 drives from somewhere, typically Samsung, and that Samsung does sell those parts to consumers as well. The 960 PRO is on par with what Apple is putting in their systems; at 985MB/s per lane, you're not going to get over 3940MB/s and my single 960 benchmarks so close to that that the difference can be accounted for by control codes which, of course, must be sent alongside the data. I somehow doubt Apple is using faster m.2 drives since the slot only has enough pins to provide 4 lanes and that's as fast as 4 lanes can go.

      You're almost right, though; a non-Xeon Intel system is unlikely to perform any better with two m.2 drives. In fact, it will likely perform worse as it now has two streams of control commands to send alongside the same data, thereby reducing throughput over the same 4 lanes (or 2 in the case of a lot of gaming-oriented boards) shared by the 2 drives. You might find a non-Xeon board with a pair of m.2 slots and without a 16x slot that assigns 4 lanes to each m.2, and I'd be truly interested to see one; I'm sure such a beast exists (perhaps with more than 4 of more m.2 slots even) for Xeon, but it's a friggin' unicorn for Core-i CPUs.

      Also worth noting, the 960 PRO benchmarks nearly 4x as fast as the SM0512F in my 2013 rMBP. Yes, faster drives than this were available in 2013 and yes, the PC laptop I bought shortly after the rMBP for roughly $700 less (with a manufacture date within a month of the rMBP) includes a pair of them and benchmarks more than twice as fast. It's hard to say that Apple uses the fastest drives after seeing that, though it may be true today when m.2 drives have reached their theoretical maximum performance and those drives have come down considerably in price.

      But the reality is that I'm more ripping on Intel with this rant than Apple. AMD came out with a consumer CPU architecture with 4 more usable PCIe lanes than Kaby Lake which, for some workloads, makes them the better choice right now. Of course, Intel's new chips have more PCIe lanes available, but it's doubtful they would without Ryzen having been released. Threadripper has 64 lanes available and Epyc has 128, while Xeon is still sitting at 48 per CPU, so Intel has some catching up to do.

      This makes me hopeful for an AMD-based Mac Pro; Epyc would be nice with, say, 4 16x slots, 4 4x slots, and the remaining 48 lanes split across 12 m.2 slots. It would be a hell of a large board to support all of that, but damn it would be top-notch and worth the premium in both space and price. I have my doubts as I don't think Apple would be willing to give up Thunderbolt, despite the fact that it's markedly less useful in a desktop/workstation scenario than it is in a portable or all-in-one. If an AMD-based Mac happens, I'll finally be able to run a macOS VM with an unmodified kernel on my Ryzen workstation, which will be nice; my wife has had her eye on this rMBP for some time and I could finally pass it on to her if that happened.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    57. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still can't figure out why he was trying to use the keyboard, I would have expected hipsters to be dictating their Jennifer Lawrence screenplays to Siri.

    58. Re:I think I know the problem by tibit · · Score: 1

      The current Clover-based solutions do modify the system, except it's done on the fly, so that no patching of install media is needed, and you could essentially boot from a working OS X drive taken from Apple hardware. The hackintosh VM will require a small EFI drive with Clover on it to boot from, and then can use most any OS X system partition to successfully boot.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    59. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Also worth noting, the 960 PRO benchmarks nearly 4x as fast as the SM0512F in my 2013 rMBP. Yes, faster drives than this were available in 2013 and yes, the PC laptop I bought shortly after the rMBP for roughly $700 less (with a manufacture date within a month of the rMBP) includes a pair of them and benchmarks more than twice as fast. It's hard to say that Apple uses the fastest drives after seeing that, though it may be true today when m.2 drives have reached their theoretical maximum performance and those drives have come down considerably in price.

      The 2013 IIRC didn't use NVMe drives. My 2014 is twice as fast as the old 2013 I had. The 2015 was 50% faster still, and the 2016 hits your maximums. I don't know for sure, because I haven't gone through the specs with this in mind, but IIRC, NVMe will inherently be faster than SATA m.2 based systems because 1 layer of protocols has been removed. But you're talking 1 or 2%, I'm guessing, with the bandwidth being discussed, although the latency will also be reduced (likely also just a tiny bit). But I admit freely that I have not recently gone through the specs, and this is merely from memory and impressions of reading it years ago.

      This makes me hopeful for an AMD-based Mac Pro; ... I have my doubts as I don't think Apple would be willing to give up Thunderbolt, despite the fact that it's markedly less useful in a desktop/workstation scenario than it is in a portable or all-in-one.

      I'd love an AMD based Mac Pro. Preferably with options for up to 8+ CPUs.... (if we're dreaming, might as well dream big) The reason this may be appealing from Apple's viewpoint is that AMD's ThreadRipper architecture actually ties into their GCD architecture better than Intel's Core architecture, and AMD's technology for multi-CPU support works better than Intel's approach (Why they didn't just license hypertransport eludes me - it blew Intel's doors off, just like AMD-64, so why not eat crow just once and get both?)

      As for Thunderbolt, it's a great tech still looking for a real use case. DisplayPort is fine for 5K monitors, and for the next couple of years I suspect that's as high as we'll go. It doesn't matter past that, because the GPUs connect to monitors, likely with HDMI 2.1+, so no TB there. 10Ge ethernet is available over copper, higher over fibre, so I don't see (network type) connectivity going to TB. External disk housing for 99.99% of users will be slower than what USB-C offers, so no TB needed there either. In fact, the more you look at it, the less reasons you can find for TB. And overall I like TB, but I just can't find reasonable uses for it anymore that justify the Intel tax.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    60. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Hmm, very interesting. I might have to try that this weekend. It might be a bit much to ask (and feel free to tell me to screw off) but might you have links to reliable sources for how to get this going? If not, I'm sure Google won't let me down, but I'd certainly appreciate you pending a few seconds to save me a few minutes if you have the resources already bookmarked.

      When I looked into it when Sierra was first released, there was no AMD compatible kernel for that version of the OS. But, then, Sierra had only been out for a few hours at that point. I'll admit I haven't kept up with it since then -- already having a working Mac, the VM would be more of a nice-to-have than anything else.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    61. Re:I think I know the problem by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      The problem is that OEMs seem much more interested in how much shovelware they can cram on to your machine than actually making it work. This goes double when you buy a phone.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    62. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      The 2013 IIRC didn't use NVMe drives. My 2014 is twice as fast as the old 2013 I had.

      It's funny this came up today, actually. Having bought it in January 2014, I assumed it was a mid-2013 model, but "About This Mac" lists it as a mid-2014. I just happened to need to look that up to drop the info at the bottom of this post just a few minutes ago. F me for never having actually looked at that dialog in the over 3 years I've owned this laptop ;)

      NVMe will inherently be faster than SATA m.2 based systems because 1 layer of protocols has been removed. But you're talking 1 or 2%

      You're going from 6gbps (768MB/s) to 985MB/s per lane. That's a bit more than 1-2%, my friend. SATA can't reach 1GB/sec, while m.2 PCIe can just about hit 4GB/sec. In fact, if the drive supports protocol compression, as the 960 PRO appears to with the latest firmware, you can break 4GB/sec in data throughput; the 960 PRO in my Ryzen build peaks over 4GB/sec on sequential reads, which surprised the hell out of me because I didn't know that was possible until I saw it with my own eyes, which teared over with joy at that moment. In all honestly, I'm only assuming compression is a factor in that; but, somehow, my 960 PRO managed a sustained transfer rate (during a benchmark) in excess of the bandwidth available in 4 PCIe 3.0 lanes.

      I'd love an AMD based Mac Pro. Preferably with options for up to 8+ CPUs...

      Are you hitting on me? Because now I'm blushing.

      The reason this may be appealing from Apple's viewpoint is that AMD's ThreadRipper architecture actually ties into their GCD architecture better than Intel's Core architecture, and AMD's technology for multi-CPU support works better than Intel's approach

      Sadly, Apple has hitched its wagon to Thunderbolt at this point. I wish it wasn't so, but I just don't see Cook changing course. We can hope and dream, though. This is one instance where I'd certainly love to be proven wrong.

      As for Thunderbolt, it's a great tech still looking for a real use case.

      There are a handful of use cases, but almost none of them apply to the lay consumer. You can shave a handful of milliseconds off latency off an ASIO audio interface by going Thunderbolt vs USB, which is great if you use a laptop in the studio; a workstation would be better served with a PCIe card and breakout box, which has been the preferred solution for recording studio workstation audio for some time now. Then, there are PCIe m.2 disks, which can saturate 4 PCIe lanes, which just so happens to be what TB3 provides; those operate at 1/4 throughput over USB 3.1 under ideal conditions, less in the real world. Again, great if you're stuck on a laptop but pointless if you've got a proper workstation.

      Which brings me to the one use case the lay consumer might be interested in: docking stations. A 2-cable solution (1 if your laptop requires less than 100 watts to charge) is great for your average on-the-go consumer.

      But we've had universal docking stations providing a 2 cable solution since USB 2.0 came out so, yeah, I agree that it's really a solution in search of a problem. Anybody doing real heavy lifting that would require that level of performance should be doing that work on a proper workstation and, if mobility is desired, using a laptop as more of a remote terminal. That sort of setup allows me to do the same work from an Android convertible that I can do from my desktop, except in rare cases where the dual 4k display are an absolute necessity.

      If Thunderbolt disappeared tomorrow, I doubt many would miss it, honestly. A few DJs might suffer a couple extra milliseconds of delay during their performances, but the real-world impact would be minimal and the hope for an Epyc Mac Pro would increase by several orders of magnitude. It

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    63. Re:I think I know the problem by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Many agree, but the barrier is that Apple isn't a software company. It's a hardware vendor that sells software as a marketing gimmick for their spectacularly-overpriced commodity hardware.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    64. Re:I think I know the problem by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I was just referring to the comment about "most people". "Most people" don't interact with developers at all. "Information Technology" sounds like a term that is broad enough to include developers, but there are a lot of companies out there who don't employ software developers at all but still have an IT department, and that department is in charge of maintaining the computers and network equipment. So I was saying that "most people" see "IT" as those kinds of people, not developers.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    65. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shockingly this is still relevant
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

    66. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      The 2013 IIRC didn't use NVMe drives. My 2014 is twice as fast as the old 2013 I had.

      It's funny this came up today, actually. Having bought it in January 2014, I assumed it was a mid-2013 model, but "About This Mac" lists it as a mid-2014. I just happened to need to look that up to drop the info at the bottom of this post just a few minutes ago. F me for never having actually looked at that dialog in the over 3 years I've owned this laptop ;)

      I find that quite amusing. Reading that comment, you do realize the NVMe drives are "standard", they're just soldered in, IIRC. Which is stupid, IMHO, as there's little to no reason for that. The connectors are pretty solid for those, and shouldn't be a source of significant (or even insignificant) problems with laptops. The soldered memory I get when it's 16GB. There's also the "consumer's too stupid to buy the right RAM" issue.

      Moving on, yes, they totally screwed up both the mac pro and mac mini in 2013. They've finally admitted it in 2016, at least on the mac pro. I'm hopeful they'll also correct their mac mini mistake this year. Coming out with a nice tower and a mini block that can be put into a grid was where I thought they should have gone in 2013. Instead we got design over technology. It's a computer, make it do neat computer things. Imagine if I could automagically hook up a MBP to a network with a couple of pros/minis on it, and when I want to edit/render video, it automatically allowed me to utilize the other machines on the network, provided I had access to them, of course. That 2 hour rendering job on a single machine could be cut down to tens of minutes, at least in my house.

      NVMe will inherently be faster than SATA m.2 based systems because 1 layer of protocols has been removed. But you're talking 1 or 2%

      You're going from 6gbps (768MB/s) to 985MB/s per lane. That's a bit more than 1-2%, my friend. SATA can't reach 1GB/sec, while m.2 PCIe can just about hit 4GB/sec. In fact, if the drive supports protocol compression, as the 960 PRO appears to with the latest firmware, you can break 4GB/sec in data throughput; the 960 PRO in my Ryzen build peaks over 4GB/sec on sequential reads, which surprised the hell out of me because I didn't know that was possible until I saw it with my own eyes, which teared over with joy at that moment. In all honestly, I'm only assuming compression is a factor in that; but, somehow, my 960 PRO managed a sustained transfer rate (during a benchmark) in excess of the bandwidth available in 4 PCIe 3.0 lanes.

      I'd have to ask over what time frame and amount transferred. I'm guessing you accounted for the up to 4 or so GB caching utilized within a machine? It's pretty impressive what goes on within the OS. I'd run a full HD+ 25GB+ file through that test, that will really tell you how things go. Also, it seems odd even with on the fly compression that you could get 4GB/s throughput. What would be doing the decompression? If it's the CPU, you'd be able to easily determine that via CPU performance monitoring compared to a non 960 PRO test. I'd guess the data on disk is compressed, which would explain the much slower write speeds.

      Just color me skeptical

      Sadly, Apple has hitched its wagon to Thunderbolt at this point. I wish it wasn't so, but I just don't see Cook changing course. We can hope and dream, though. This is one instance where I'd certainly love to be proven wrong.

      I'm not sure about that, with them going all full USB-C or USB-C only on the latest laptops. Add in that they're completely redesigning the mac pro this year....

      There are a handful of use cases, but almost none of them apply to the lay consumer. ...

      Which brings me to the one use case the lay consumer might be interest

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    67. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      you do realize the NVMe drives are "standard", they're just soldered in, IIRC

      I've had my rMBP open, the m.2 drive is replaceable, actually, held in with a single screw. The soldered RAM is really annoying, though; my PC with RAM sockets is thinner than my rMBP and "thinness" is the excuse I always hear, so there's really no excuse for it.

      Moving on, yes, they totally screwed up both the mac pro and mac mini in 2013. They've finally admitted it in 2016, at least on the mac pro. I'm hopeful they'll also correct their mac mini mistake this year. Coming out with a nice tower and a mini block that can be put into a grid was where I thought they should have gone in 2013. Instead we got design over technology. It's a computer, make it do neat computer things. Imagine if I could automagically hook up a MBP to a network with a couple of pros/minis on it, and when I want to edit/render video, it automatically allowed me to utilize the other machines on the network, provided I had access to them, of course. That 2 hour rendering job on a single machine could be cut down to tens of minutes, at least in my house.

      I almost didn't quote this because I really have nothing more to say other than: agreed.

      I'm guessing you accounted for the up to 4 or so GB caching utilized within a machine? It's pretty impressive what goes on within the OS.

      If they've come up with a way to fill that cache with data from disk before it's been read, I'm sure there's an award somewhere they should be receiving. We're talking about read speeds, here; disk caches are only useful for caching writes and reading recent writes that haven't yet been flushed, they're not really helpful for large sequential reads of files not already present in (or exceeding the size of) the cache. I'm fairly certain Samsung's benchmark utility takes that into consideration; if it does not, nine 32GB passes with CrystalDiskMark surely didn't fit into the portion of my workstation's 64GB of RAM dedicated to disk cache. Considering that 4x PCIe 3.0 lanes total up to 3940MB/s, topping 4GB/sec wouldn't require much compression at all, mind you, and I ran these benchmarks without any sort of OS-level filesystem compression (it's an option with NTFS, but not enabled on the drive in question), so it has to be being done at the driver or chipset level. I will say I wasn't seeing much over 3GB/sec before applying the most recent firmware update and the performance I noted after the update far exceeds what Samsung specifies for the drive in question.

      On the Mac, BlackMagic Disk Speed Test is more or less the standard test and it agrees with the benchmarks listed here for the SM0512F (utilizing Samsung flash) found in my rMBP. Apparently in 2014 they were running 2x PCIe 2.0 lanes; it wasn't until 2015 that Apple started using 4x PCIe 3.0 lanes for storage in the MacBook lineup. At least, that's what I just read. Even so, with 4x PCIe 3.0 lanes totaling up to 3940MB/s, that's as fast as you're gonna see without compression, so we're already at the point where a run-of-the-mill consumer part available at Fry's is as performant as the underlying technology allows; Apple can't do better than that.

      I'd guess the data on disk is compressed, which would explain the much slower write speeds.

      Who said anything about much slower write speeds? I'm seeing sequential writes in excess of 3GB/s, which also exceeds the performance level specified by Samsung for the drive in question.

      Just color me skeptical

      I would be, too, had I not seen it with my own eyes, then re-run the benchmarks in disbelief.

      I'm not sure about that, with them going all full USB-C or USB-C only on the latest laptops.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    68. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      you do realize the NVMe drives are "standard", they're just soldered in, IIRC

      I've had my rMBP open, the m.2 drive is replaceable, actually, held in with a single screw. The soldered RAM is really annoying, though; my PC with RAM sockets is thinner than my rMBP and "thinness" is the excuse I always hear, so there's really no excuse for it.

      Yeah, they started soldering them in the touch bar MBPs in 2016, and the 2015 MBs. Another reason to only buy non-touch bar MBPs.

      Who said anything about much slower write speeds? I'm seeing sequential writes in excess of 3GB/s, which also exceeds the performance level specified by Samsung for the drive in question.

      For sequential, that seems too fast and is 50% over the max.

      Thunderbolt 3 uses the USB-C port. Check the specs on the newest laptops to which you refer:

      Yes, I know. Hence the statement elsewhere that USB-C sources that have TB capability should be fully USB-C compliant. I'm not too worried about accessories. Those could be USB3, 3.1 or TB whatever, and be perfectly fine. You're not going to connect your monitor to your drive array or printer after all.

      and a bigger battery (to enable that extended load and long-term use). We might even consider 4mm and a full pound if it means workstation-class graphics, or at least a current-gen gaming GPU.

      7-10 hours seems pretty significant to me already, and by far outpaces all but the most recently available non Apple products. As for thickness, 2-4mm doesn't bother me. Weight, however, does (yes, more thickness generally equates to more weight, pretend it's hypothetically "free") I don't even like carting around the power brick if I don't need to.

      I actually had someone tell me, here on Slashdot, today, that Apple (and only Apple) cares about the consumer. My 3 line response to that took longer to type than the rant you see above, because I couldn't stop laughing for long enough to type it.

      I don't know.... they might care more than others, but I'd say the primary care they have of late is revenue, image, growth, ensuring products stay ahead of others in usability (one place they care about consumers because this leads to more revenue) app store growth, music store growth (again - both consumer oriented because consumers make this growth happen)

      But yes, I'd say a lot of their recent decisions killing products like Aperture, Final Cut Express/Pro, etc without adequate better replacements ready to go, along with the mini/pro changes and the disabling of hardware fixes/upgrades are all anti-consumer. We'll see what their redesigned mac pro brings, that will either herald a new approach or nail the coffin shut.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    69. Re: I think I know the problem by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      My nephew is at university for engineering. He has a macbook and says "nobody else in the program does", which probably just means very few. But he got access to free boot camp and windows and apparently getting through it.

    70. Re:I think I know the problem by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they started soldering them in the touch bar MBPs in 2016, and the 2015 MBs. Another reason to only buy non-touch bar MBPs.

      Actually, no, but they did come up with their own form factor.

      Hence the statement elsewhere that USB-C sources that have TB capability should be fully USB-C compliant.

      Except that most Thunderbolt 3 devices don't fall back to USB if Thunderbolt isn't available. Therein lies the problem for the lay consumer who doesn't know the difference.

      We'll see what their redesigned mac pro brings, that will either herald a new approach or nail the coffin shut.

      Fingers crossed. I mean, I'm really not looking forward to dropping $10k+ on my next workstation, but I'll do so with a smile 5 or 6 years down the road when I need to replace my current one if Apple is offering a worthy replacement.

      And here's what a lot of people don't understand: I spent a little over $4k building my current workstation and, yes, Apple does sell a machine that will work for me today in that price range. However, they don't sell anything that comes near touching my $4k build, which means I'll get at least 5 years out of that $4k investment before I need to upgrade, where the machine that just covers what I need today will likely need to be upgraded (we're talking Apple, so replaced) next year. Most likely, the Mac Pro I could buy today would represent a $4000/yr cost of ownership; at best I'd expect it would represent an $800/yr cost. That same $800/yr cost is the projected worst case for my Ryzen build, half that if it manages to last the decade I designed it to last.

      An Epyc-based Mac Pro, even the lowest-end Epyc, in a proper tower could easily serve my needs for well over a decade, making a $10k price tag easily justifiable. If Apple were to go that route, well, I think we're in agreement on what would happen.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    71. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My desktop's current uptime is 32 days.

      I'm really behind on updating my kernel, but still... my uptime is 791 days.

    72. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they started soldering them in the touch bar MBPs in 2016, and the 2015 MBs. Another reason to only buy non-touch bar MBPs.

      Actually, no, but they did come up with their own form factor.

      Well, they did solder in the 2013 or 2014 MB. But I didn't think that mattered. And, IIRC, Apple was using NVMe drives before they were commonly available. Yes, I would love it if they moved to a standard socket. Hopefully they'll see the light this coming year.

      Hence the statement elsewhere that USB-C sources that have TB capability should be fully USB-C compliant.

      Except that most Thunderbolt 3 devices don't fall back to USB if Thunderbolt isn't available. Therein lies the problem for the lay consumer who doesn't know the difference.

      The entire reason for stating sources must be fully compliant. Anything you plug into your laptop USB-C port should work. Again, you don't expect your printer to work properly when connected to your monitor or harddrive enclosure.

      And here's what a lot of people don't understand: I spent a little over $4k building my current workstation and, yes, Apple does sell a machine that will work for me today in that price range. However, they don't sell anything that comes near touching my $4k build, which means I'll get at least 5 years out of that $4k investment before I need to upgrade, where the machine that just covers what I need today will likely need to be upgraded (we're talking Apple, so replaced) next year. Most likely, the Mac Pro I could buy today would represent a $4000/yr cost of ownership; at best I'd expect it would represent an $800/yr cost. That same $800/yr cost is the projected worst case for my Ryzen build, half that if it manages to last the decade I designed it to last.

      My current build would have cost me roughly $3K with all new parts when I built it. It easily bested any single CPU mac pro until the 2013 one came out. If I dropped an additional $300 on it today, it would match pretty much any $5K mac pro easily, and more. That's just sad.

      Honestly, a single CPU high end mac pro should cost maybe $3-4K tops - that includes 1TB NVMe drive with the potential for a second, a min 6 core CPU, and maybe 16GB RAM (aftermarket upgradeable to 128 or 256, of course) and a discrete graphics card. I do think I see why Apple thought they needed a change, not realizing that the real value lay in the potential added by the mini (prior to them nerfing it) Besides being a nice little desktop box for non-gaming use and a great HTPC, they also make a nice extensible compute or server farm. Instead we got a pretty design and no real functionality. For your use case, a single system probably would be in the $7-10K range. Mine might be less now.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    73. Re:I think I know the problem by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Haha! Tired cliche! Ancient repetitive humorless humor!

      Hit a nerve huh?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    74. Re:I think I know the problem by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      One universal constant in the long-running PC vs Apple war is that even when the Apple side have superior hardware and software on their side, they consistently blow it on the "having a sense of fucking humour" front.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    75. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In my mind, I'm sneering at a 2016 MBP's Touch Bar as I say that, then repeating it as I glare at the keyboard on the same machine. It sure is a great Facebook toy they've created, but a true Pro user is willing to trade 2mm and a half pound to get proper cooling (alleviating thermal throttling under extended load), a little bit of key travel (comfort for long-term use), and a bigger battery (to enable that extended load and long-term use). We might even consider 4mm and a full pound if it means workstation-class graphics, or at least a current-gen gaming GPU."

      I'm a bit of a fanboy, but when my 17-inch MBP died, I was forced to buy something, and the older rMBPs were gone, so I had to go for a 2-16 rMBP with the stupid Touch Bar. What i REALLY HATE about it is the Escape key. After a while, the Touch Bar goes to sleep - you CAN'T change that, from what I can find out, so if you need the Escape key, first you have to tap the Touch Bar to wake it up, THEN you get to use the Escape Key! DEFINITELY form over function. Asswipes.

      There are other problems with it, but that's the one that aggravates me the most, several times a day.

      I think they've lost me with this one, I probably won't buy another.

      Oh yeah, the other thing that's as annoying is the USB-C ports. VERY EASY to disconnect. On a laptop, that's just stupid. Yeah, they're REALLY fast, until you bump the connector 1/32 of an inch and disconnect your external drives! Asswipes.

    76. Re:I think I know the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "7-10 hours seems pretty significant to me already, and by far outpaces all but the most recently available non Apple products. As for thickness, 2-4mm doesn't bother me"

      Shit, I wish I could get HALF that in my 2016 rMBP. I get 3-4 hours MAXIMUM. Yes, it charges fast, but what does that matter if I need my computer and I need to be away from power for 5 or more hours? My old 17-inch MBP easily hit 8 hours. And their performance is VERY similar for what I do since I replaced the HD with an SSD. I need to get my 17-incher fixed..

    77. Re:I think I know the problem by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      If you're only getting 3-4 hours, I have to wonder what you're doing. My 2014 running anything you care to name that I'd run disconnected gets 6 hours minimum. That's if I'm running mobile phone builds at a client. Now, the phone does need to be fully charged to get that much out of it. If it's near empty, then the power draw is pretty significant to charge the phone while running, and I may get 4-5 hours. Presentations, movies, coding, etc, 7-10 hours.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  7. I haven't had _that_ problem... by mellon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But holy crap, the touch-bar is a bad bit of UI design. I'm constantly accidentally triggering it. When I'm typing it offers spelling tweaks, so if my finger grazes the touchbar I wind up changing the word I typed unintentionally. I hit the escape (or cancel) button frequently. It's a nightmare. I was curious to try it, but now I wish there was some way I could switch back.

    1. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      It definitely isn't fun when using vi... However, I've used a Lenovo laptop a couple years back that had a similar touchbar, and that was even worse, as they decided to move the caps lock and "\" key somewhere random as well. After that experience, the Apple touchbar isn't that bad.

    2. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The one that gets me is my ~/` key is between right alt and ctrl on my Lenovo. WTH? It's borderline unusable for coding/shell work.

    3. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by houghi · · Score: 0

      You are probably holding it wrong.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      My question is how do you accidentally graze the touchbar that's on top of your keyboard when you're typing. I never touch any of the function keys when I'm typing, my fingers are on the bottom half of the number keys if I even have to reach them.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Informative

      Their editor makes use of the Esc button extensively. It's up there on that smudgeglass zone on the new Applebooks.

    6. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love the caps lock to be somewhere else besides to the left of the A

    7. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by torkus · · Score: 1

      I never hit the touch bar by accident (or on purpose) and have no problems with typing on my new MBP.

      Granted I have it buried on my desk and hooked up to a Dell USB-C dock, monitor, and logitech KB/Mouse. It seems to work just fine for me! It is a bit difficult to use TouchID though until I take the crap off of it.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    8. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure they're just trying to put VI and EMacs to rest by making the ESC key too much of a pain in the ass to activate reliably. I've been using one for a few months now and I'm still certain it's a giant step back.

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
    9. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      But holy crap, the touch-bar is a bad bit of UI design. I'm constantly accidentally triggering it.

      I never hit the touch bar by accident (or on purpose) and have no problems with typing on my new MBP.

      Man, I love the balanced viewpoints on this site. Do we have anyone who does accidentally trigger it, but only sometimes? So far we have constantly and never, is there anyone else?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    10. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by zlives · · Score: 2

      it takes courage... to hold it wrong.

    11. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by zlives · · Score: 1

      you could use your iPhone to unlock the device... i think

    12. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can turn off all the touch bar magic by going to System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Touch Bar shows... Expanded Control Strip. Then you don't get any of the nifty new features, but after a few weeks I found I was never using the nifty new features.

    13. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by tibit · · Score: 1

      I think that this is just the design being incompatible with learned habits, not somehow inherently broken. My kid has gotten used to it. Now she dislikes touchbar-less machines. But it took some adaptation time.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    14. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only need to use escape on macs because macs are defective (don't have a meta key)

    15. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I occasionally hit Siri instead of delete. Not too many problems with esc. Biggest issue with the keyboard are the stupid half-height up/down arrows. They didn't bother me on the keyboard on the MacBook Air, but on the new one they can be very annoying when editing text. I think it's probably because the left/right arrows are now full-height, but it could be due to the increased resistance and low travel.

    16. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      I don't even have a caps lock any more. Registry hack, keyboard remap utility or replacement keyboard, I always get rid of that useless piece of shit. Can't think of a single time I've ever really needed it, let alone need it often enough to give it a big chunk of prime real estate.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    17. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by evil_aaronm · · Score: 1

      Sun Type 5 USB keyboards. I don't leave home without 'em. Ok, I do, but you know what I mean.

    18. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by careysub · · Score: 1

      And then there is the fact that at some point in the past some imbecile (probably at Microsoft I am guessing, because it became industry wide) it stopped being a "caps lock" (locking to type nothing but upper case) but a case INVERSION key. Lower case is now uppercase, but if you hit the shift button by accident it is lower case again.

      I have never once, in a long career of writing stuff (I do a lot of writing) or coding (I do a lot of coding) wanted to have a case inversion lock key. Not once.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    19. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, the X1 Carbon Gen2. We don't mention the Gen2.

      They changed it back to a normal-width, reduced-height row of keys in the next generation, and Esc is extra-wide.

    20. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, you can switch it back to normal ESC and F1 - F12 keys.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    21. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's trivial to remap on the Mac using the keyboard preferences.
      I've mapped mine to ctrl for years, which is what it should be on all keyboards.

    22. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never had that issue with my touch bar. Esc just works. Every time. I'm not sure how you can manage to fuck that up.

    23. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have massive hands or something? I wasn't a fun of the touch-bar at first, but I never felt like it actually interfered with my workflow or anything, much less accidentally triggering it.

    24. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're doing it wrong. I've adjusted and never have a problem. In fact, the escape key is easier to hit when I need it. The main thing bad about it is that the keys don't exist until the drivers load, so you have to wait until the icons load before you can change volume or brightness.

    25. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I found the touchbar esc key easier to use. I don't even have to push hard and it works. Faster response than a regular one. Since it's also not a normal key, I never accidentally miss it and hit ~ (tilde) or F1. It's much nicer to have it on the touchbar.

    26. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      I hit the escape (or cancel) button frequently. It's a nightmare. I was curious to try it, but now I wish there was some way I could switch back.

      I am with you.

      I would LOVE to hit the escape key frequently, but since I type by touch, and there is absolutely no tactile feedback associated with that fake button, I can't. I never know when or if I have hit the fake key and I have to wait to see the response. It is incredibly annoying. In fact, it's like trying to code on your phone.

      Also, while I am ranting, who actually needs a bunch of possibly spelling corrected words popping up on their keyboard while they are typing? Was just underlining the unrecognized word not good enough? Can people really not spell anymore or is it just that the sucky-ass keyboard is making it incredibly difficult to do so?

      I don't know what the hell Apple was thinking with that decision. (Courage?) I am OK with metakeys, but they should have the same raised profile and depress feature as regular keys. And they shouldn't continuously change their options while I am typing.

    27. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by IAN · · Score: 1

      Can't think of a single time I've ever really needed [Caps Lock], let alone need it often enough to give it a big chunk of prime real estate.

      Every time I have to type something like SSL_VERIFY_FAIL_IF_NO_PEER_CERT I remember the Caps-Lockoclasts and chuckle to myself.

    28. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      Alex Jones is claiming that Chris Allegretta is actually a "secret major shareholder" in Apple and the ESC key issue is a false-flag operation to force everyone to just give up and use Nano. He has a solution, he is selling EMacULANT-branded nutritional supplements that enable people to help "make Mac keyboards great again!" by "enhancing your ability to subconsciously conqueror bad keyboard implementations" that have been forced upon the populace by the "international criminal Apple corp cartel".

    29. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! Do you remember which model it was? I'm super curious now.

    30. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Megane · · Score: 1

      it stopped being a "caps lock" (locking to type nothing but upper case) but a case INVERSION key.

      I think that comes from the original IBM PC. And of course it stayed because compatibility! Since that would have been a part of BIOS, you can't even blame Microsoft for it, unlike when you hit Command/Control-Q instead of W to close a window, thus quitting your app entirely instead. "W" for "close window" goes back to Microsoft Word for Mac 1.0.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    31. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      You need to hold down shift for the _ anyway, so SSL_VERIFY_FAIL_IF_NO_PEER_CERT is easier to type by just holding down shift (turns out with my baby finger on my right hand) than pissing about with CAPS LOCK and shift.

      But that's the programmer in me.

    32. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by IAN · · Score: 1

      SSL_VERIFY_FAIL_IF_NO_PEER_CERT is easier to type by just holding down shift (turns out with my baby finger on my right hand) than pissing about with CAPS LOCK and shift.

      Sure, if you want to contort your right hand, assuming touch typing the letters according to the rules of the QWERTY layout. The proper touch typing technique is to use the Shift opposite to the key you want shifted. Doing so with the given example, you'd need to switch the Shifts twelve times. I tried, and it wasn't much fun; I'd rather keep the Caps Lock.

      If you forgo the customary technique, then yes, Caps Lock may be superfluous. I prefer not to.

    33. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I was never taught to type, I just learned by playing muds and Angband. In Angband you get used to hitting shift a lot, and you use whichever hand works.

      When programming I found I started just holding down right-shift for most UPPER CASE words, as it doesn't stop me hitting any of the other keys I want to use, doesn't slow me down and doesn't make me contort my hand.

      Maybe I should be using that baby finger for another key instead. I do, e.g. the ' key. But I type @ with my right hand only, so go figure.

      Maybe proper touch typing technique is just shit for programmers.

    34. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

      Same here, capslock is better used as an additional enter key. I find autohotkey to be very useful for remapping.

    35. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      You don't have auto-complete? Sucker.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    36. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least you don't have my problem, accidentally triggering everyone around me.

    37. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I don't even have a caps lock any more

      Fucking metal, man.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    38. Re:I haven't had _that_ problem... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      But holy crap, the touch-bar is a bad bit of UI design. I'm constantly accidentally triggering it.

      I never hit the touch bar by accident (or on purpose) and have no problems with typing on my new MBP.

      Man, I love the balanced viewpoints on this site. Do we have anyone who does accidentally trigger it, but only sometimes? So far we have constantly and never, is there anyone else?

      I have absolutely no idea what anyone is talking about, but I vote for "only sometimes".

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  8. It's you by Tablizer · · Score: 0

    You're dusting it wrong.
      -S. Jobs

  9. The Shine is Off the Apple by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I purchased the second Macintosh model (Fat Mac) in college and had Macs up until about 10 years ago.

    So it is with some sadness that I say Apple is no longer special. Whatever Karma Jobs left behind has worn off and now Apple is merely another Tech Company.

    Their idea Vault is empty, their commitment to be "insanely great" has waned, and investors are on the verge of turning management into just another, "beat the quarterly earnings forecast" collection of MBAs and bean counters.

    I feel privileged to have lived in the time of it's creation, ascension, and total domination. I fear that I will also live to see its demise in the manner of so many alternative computer companies before it.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by ctilsie242 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Oddly enough, I'm seeing Dell start to be what Apple was, especially with their new Latitude models. Some of Dell's items are better MacBook Pros than Apple's offerings, especially because they include much-needed ports.

      Of course, there is the customer service difference, but with Dell, the trick is to buy the business class, and their pro level of support, and it is decent.

    2. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by tgetzoya · · Score: 2

      I agree with you. I bought a new laptop in January to replace my old 2012 Macbook. It came down to a new Macbook Pro or the Dell XPS. The Dell has a 4k screen and cost around a thousand less than the Macbook. Both are stylish and well made. I didn't see a point in considering the Apple device after playing with the Dell.

    3. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      The Precision line always has been. (And it's been priced accordingly.)

      My current laptop is a machine from 2012. You can find full teardown manuals online. (They were designed to be fixed by in-house IT). Parts are easy to find. I was even able to swap the processor to a faster version.

      USB, Displayport, HDMI, VGA, eSATA, Gigabit and Firewire.

    4. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel privileged to have lived in the time of it's creation, ascension, and total domination.

      Strange, because I seem to remember quite a long stretch of time after Jobs left the first time when Apple was just another run-of-the-mill computer maker with it's own OS. More of a throw-back to the bad old days of Commodore 64 and all that non-DOS/Windows stuff then a "commitment to be "insanely great"". I think what you mean to say might be "I feel privileged to have lived in the time of it's creation and drive to a pretty respectable number two spot (with a lot of help from Adobe and an AppleTalk glitch that forced designers to keep using "Apple" fonts).

      Hopefully with the Jobs Reality Warping Field dissipating the fan boys will wake up and see that their Apple products are just well-designed consumer products but that the computers aren't much different from Windows machines with comparable hardware.

    5. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by geekmux · · Score: 2

      ...investors are on the verge of turning management into just another, "beat the quarterly earnings forecast" collection of MBAs and bean counters.

      Sadly, this tends to highlight the value of private companies.

      Greed tends to shit all over every other company mission, and doesn't care.

    6. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by evultrole · · Score: 1

      Apple products are just well-designed consumer products They aren't, though. Sure, they're pretty, but this guy can't use his computer because the keyboard was poorly designed. My wife can't use hers because it's a heat hoarding throttle bastard.

    7. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Of course, there is the customer service difference

      Yes, Dell will send a tech out to fix your problem while Apple makes you make an appointment with a "genius" who will sit there and pick his nose while declaring everything a "logic board problem".

    8. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by MikeMo · · Score: 1

      And yet millions of people have neither of these problems. Doesn’t sound like an endemic design issue to me.

    9. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Informative

      Everything *is* a logic board problem on the newer Applebooks, because it's all soldered together.

      Your hard drive is corrupt? It's part of the logic board.

      An area of the memory seems corrupt? It's soldered onto the logic board.

    10. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      There was even a period of time when Apple was putting shitty sub-standard versions of the 68040 processor in some of their hardware. One of the first things you had to do when installing NetBSD on those boxes was put a real processor in the socket.

    11. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and later retrieve that particle from his orifice and claim that was leftover thermal paste from one of the carbon units that used the hardware.

    12. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by emacsomancer · · Score: 1

      Jobs? You mean Wozniak?

    13. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like the G3 era, when you either got a Motorola-fabbed CPU or an IBM-fabbed CPU.

      The Motorola ones had aluminum traces and pins and couldn't handle being OC'ed much.

      The IBM ones had copper traces and pins and could handle maxed-out OC jumpers.

      Mine was a Motorola-fabbed CPU... :(

    14. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple has always been (and still is) a marketing company. They don't design most of their shit and instead just buy it, and what they DO design in-house fucking sucks.
      The only thing special about them was how they milked the money out of people.

    15. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry to break it to you they were never special..just overpriced for hipsters.

    16. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      And yet millions of people have neither of these problems.

      ...yet.

      Let's wait until the warranty on the new line is over before we start talking about endemic design issues.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    17. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      heat hoarding throttle bastard.

      I was thinking of installing one of those on my car, was yours expensive?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    18. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is when the class action lawsuits begin.

    19. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by tibit · · Score: 1

      Still, the hardware integration sucks. I thought that Dell would be better than the Asus ROG I had. Sorry to say, in terms of integration of basic soft controls it still sucks. I'm afraid that somehow only Apple got it right till now.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    20. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Alok · · Score: 1

      > full teardown manuals online

      I had no idea this was possible for laptops, most of them tend to not even allow easy swapping of RAM nowadays - in fact, I'm thinking specifically of Dell laptops which earlier had an easily removable panel to access the memory slots, but a friend's recent model has to be taken apart just to get to the SO-DIMM slots!

      Will be looking up the Precision manuals, I'm considering a new laptop this Black Friday - having it upgradable would be a nice feature.

    21. Re: The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, wait for the warranty to expire? What kind of cultist aren't you? You're supposed to upgrade all things Apple every year - even if the model hasn't changed! Damn slackers...

    22. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      Well, everything that isn't caused by dust, anyway.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    23. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Even my HP laptop is easy to repair. I've replaced the screen so far, after my son decided to climb on the table and stand on it.
      It's a 50/50 laptop though. Nice screen, decent hardware. Shitty touchpad and even shittier keyboard. I will never buy an HP again. But it was easy to fix. You can even download the service manual from the HP website - tells you what order to remove things and part numbers for everything.

    24. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      How difficult was it to install Mac OS X on it?

    25. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      So the money you saved is about 10h of works earnings?
      And you exchanged that for about 100h *every* year for maintenance and troubleshooting?
      Sounds like a bargain.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    26. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by dysmal · · Score: 1

      I thought the same about Dell until they recently ditched their docking stations for a USB3 dock. Now it's a driver cluster fuck with the new Latitude E5480's.

      The thing that Dell had going for years was their docking stations worked with minimal problems. They might be proprietary connections but they've been consistently solid for years.

      At least they haven't changed their AC adapters... yet.

    27. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      Dell was the only vendor with working docking stations. The nice thing about them was the fact that they could handle a lot of insertion/removal cycles, where ports like USB or others would wind up breaking over time, assuming someone on the road who constantly docks and undocks.

      I'm guessing USB-C docks are the way of the future, but there is something nice about just plopping the machine on a dock, having it do everything else, then mashing an eject button and heading out.

    28. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by tgetzoya · · Score: 1

      I installed linux.

    29. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by tgetzoya · · Score: 1

      So far I've had no problems. I had a Dell before I had the Macbook, and I used it for around 10 years before I had to upgrade. I only had the Macbook for 5 years before I had to upgrade. I guess I'm more of a PC guy.

    30. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, I'm seeing Dell start to be what Apple was, especially with their new Latitude models. Some of Dell's items are better MacBook Pros than Apple's offerings, especially because they include much-needed ports.

      Of course, there is the customer service difference, but with Dell, the trick is to buy the business class, and their pro level of support, and it is decent.

      Yes. I bought a refurbished Dell XPS 15 9550 a couple months ago and it is Amazingly Good. The screen is magnificent. The keyboard is the best I've ever used on a laptop. i7, 32 GB memory, 1 TB SSD, etc ... all for what the latest and greatest iPhone costs.

    31. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, my current late model 2010 macbookpro is my last mac ever. It sits on macOS Sierra and will not be getting the new OS as it breaks a lot of functionality with apps that won't be getting updates due to age. Time to move on.

      It's about time too, the phones and ipads have really been held back in capabilities and seeing what the galaxy note 8 and dex can do I can happily say my next phone will definitely be a switch away from the locked in bs I have endured because my acceptance was only one of security. But "I" do not need to be wary of security, my family does. So for me it is an obvious switch but they can stick to the lock in, and use daddy's "get work done" when they so choose to learn about such things.

    32. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just where do you get these numbers from? apple PR glossys? Or just you own prejudice bullshit.

    33. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      The point of parent was that people purchase a Mac to -also- get MacOS.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    34. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How difficult was it to install Mac OS X on it?

      I have a Dell XPS and installing OS X on it is relatively easy. I've installed OS X on the Surface Pro 1, SP3, and Surface Book. The XPS was the most compatible and easiest to set up of the four.

    35. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Did everything work okay? I'm currently using linux on an older Dell laptop and it's great but I'd like something more modern for that. I have a 2012 Macbook Pro 15" that's adequate for the video work which is mostly what it's used for. The only problem with some new hardware is occasionaly linux isn't supported by the harddware.

    36. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info.

    37. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're welcome.

      If you're genuinely interested in running macOS on a Dell XPS (and you don't already own the laptop), I recommend the XPS 15 9550. The primary reason is that you can find a better deal on a used 9550, but there are some other tradeoffs between the 9550 and the 9560. The 9550 gets you working WiFi out of the box, but not Optimus graphics support. The 9560 comes with a Killer NIC, which will need to be replaced. The Dell XPS 13 line suffers from coil whine, which is bad enough that most reviewers recommend against that model.

      I dual boot Windows and Sierra on mine, but Windows is always updating when I try to use it. So, I tend to prefer the macOS side.

      Almost everything works for me except the SD Card reader. I'm a student, not a video editor, so that isn't a big deal for me. But, it is something to be aware of.

      The rest of it works nearly flawlessly. It is one of the nicest laptops I've ever owned, and I highly recommend it as a MacBook replacement.

      The best place to start would be over at InsanelyMac, although wmchris' guide is the one to actually follow.

    38. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      Also, factor in corps can get "enterprise support" from Dell, even on laptops. You can extend your warranty out to seven years, and have 4-hour on site "Mission Critical" support. When your doing a massive refresh, these perks are often well worth it. It's especially invaluable when it comes to their PowerEdge and VMWare support.

    39. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about the random coins often found inside the Superdrives!

    40. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Don't compare the consumer lines to the professional. They're designed by different groups. My wife's Inspiron required a near complete teardown to get to the hard drive.

      http://www.dell.com/support/ma...

      I'm considering a new laptop this Black Friday

      Unless you need the latest and greatest the old ones work fine. I have a M6700 from 2012. The i7-3940xm still benchmarks fairly well. You can get one used laptop with CPU on Ebay for under $1k.

    41. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel privileged to have lived in the time of it's creation, ascension, and total domination. I fear that I will also live to see its demise

      Couldn't remember if it was "it's" or "its" and decided you'd commit to being 50% correct?

    42. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by tgetzoya · · Score: 1

      Hardware-wise, everything works extremely well. I've had no issues, even the internal nVidia card is usable and Gnome gives me the option to run the app in accelerated mode. The one thing I do notice is that the battery drains faster under Linux than it did under Win10. I thought it was a config option at first but changing the lid-close behavior made no difference.

      I've used bluetooth, logitech fob and usb external devices and everything worked like a charm. I am a Fedora guy, so I can't speak to Ubuntu et al, and FreeBSD documentation says there could be issues (I forget what exactly, I think it was with wifi) until release 12.

      I wholeheartedly recommend the XPS line for daily use; it's the best pc laptop I've ever had. Personally, I wish I had spent the little extra for an i7, but now I know better :-)

    43. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 1

      Or, maybe it is a piece of dust?

    44. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Whatever Karma Jobs left behind has worn off and now Apple is merely another Tech Company.

      HOW DARE YOU?

      Don't you know their CEO is gay? They ARE special smdh

    45. Re:The Shine is Off the Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, he's saved at least 3 trips to the Apple store where their "geniuses" apparently can't even fix a faulty space bar.

  10. So, what happened? by Albanach · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did they find the fault, or have you made three visits and each time been left with a faulty computer? Were you abandoned with a still broken computer? The summary seems incomplete.

    Is this a warning that we need lemon laws for computers as well as cars? At what point does Apple recognize that a repeatable and verifiable problem, even if intermittent, requires a product replacement?

    1. Re:So, what happened? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I don't even get WTF the point of the comment is.

      Can we solicit comments of all the shit Dell, HP and Microsoft has told me throughout the years while pointing the finger at each other?

    2. Re: So, what happened? by Monster_user · · Score: 1

      The article itself doesn't clear it up per se.

      The article does go on a tangent about "butterfy switches" and how they are rendered inoperable by a piece of dust. Essentially saying that "butterfly switches" are impossible to maintain, and that a repair is $700 to replace the entire top half of the laptop. If the piece of dust does not dislodge while troubleshooting.

      Sounds like it can reasonably be assumed that the cause was determined to actually be a piece of dust each time.

    3. Re:So, what happened? by prunus.avium · · Score: 4, Informative

      From reading TFA.

      They keyboard is so integrated - and the spacebar so fragile - that they have to replace the entire top of the MacBook. After the warranty expires, that's a $700.00 repair.

      So a piece of dust under the spacebar can lead to a $700.00 repair bill. Nice.

    4. Re:So, what happened? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I think it's just bitching that the minimum wage computer techs at the Apple Store don't know how to fix a computer.

      Double spacing, I think perhaps you have the key repeat/delay screwed a bit too high and/or you don't know how to type.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re: So, what happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, It's time for his mom to dust the basement again.

    6. Re:So, what happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > and the spacebar so fragile

      Can we _please_ stop with the single button space bar? After using a friend's keyboard with a split space bar I find myself wishing for it every time that I do any serious typing now. The feel is amazing. Charge me an extra dollar for the switch, I'LL PAY IT.

    7. Re:So, what happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I read the original article, linked in the summary. $700 repair replacing half the laptop. Links are fun

  11. So that's the reason ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The rubber feet keep coming off my MacBook Pros. Yeah, multiple MacBook Pros. Yup, for over a decade. And, Yup, Apple still hasn't fixed it, though I haven't checked the latest couple of models by buying one.

    I'm so PO'd, I'm about ready to design a "Final Foot Solution."

    1. Re:So that's the reason ... by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      And you keep buying MacBook Pros for a decade; good job!

      --
      -SaNo
    2. Re:So that's the reason ... by wwphx · · Score: 1

      Home Depot sells some pretty good rubber feet, not too expensive either.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    3. Re:So that's the reason ... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Attach them with some 3M VHB double-sided stickers.

  12. I know your problem. by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The audacity of Apple giving some minimum-wage tech schlub the title of "Genius" says *everything* about Apple, its branding, and the customers it serves.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:I know your problem. by bferrell · · Score: 0

      Since just after the Apple ii+, branding is what Apple had to sell... And people bought it and they're wishing there was more of it to be had.

      I stopped being supportive of Apple when the thing that attracted me to Apple became and "extra"... The tech manual. That told me all I needed to know about who thy thought the customer was.

    2. Re:I know your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. The last Apple product worth a damn was the ][+, maybe the ][e.

    3. Re:I know your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > minimum-wage tech schlub the title of "Genius"

      On the bright side, it gives you plenty of opportunities to respond to some mistake he does with a well-placed, sarcastic "way to go, genius"

    4. Re:I know your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The audacity of Apple giving some minimum-wage tech schlub the title of "Genius" says *everything* about Apple, its branding, and the customers it serves.

      They might be annoying, but Apple's "genius" employees do make more than minimum wage: https://www.payscale.com/resea...

    5. Re:I know your problem. by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      The Apple Genius probably lets the Tesla's AutoPilot drive him to work.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    6. Re:I know your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uh, the "genius" position is the highest paid position in the apple store. it pays about $38k a year. which is not google engineer money, no, but it comes out to about $20 an hour which is well above minimum wage.

    7. Re:I know your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally love that they call their tech people geniuses. When I get mad at them I can say "listen here genius" and management can't accuse me a harassing or badgering their staff.

    8. Re:I know your problem. by Gussington · · Score: 1

      The courage of Apple giving some minimum-wage tech schlub the title of "Genius" says *everything* about Apple, its branding, and the customers it serves.

      FTFY

  13. Slashdot is a tabloid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Slashdot is a tabloid.

    1. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Has been since new ownership. All click-bait headlines and not an ounce of adult vocabulary or even basic copy-editing to catch grammar or spelling errors.

      Sometimes just copy-and-pasted headlines from other click-bait factories. Shame really. Comments section still has good people and you occasionally learn something. But the whining kids have increased in number. Probably baited by the clickbait headlines. C'est la vie.

    2. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      And yet this is one of the most commented on articles in the front page. I guess that means the clickbait is working.

    3. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Literally, since Slashdot does not create (much of) its own content (as Kuro5hin liked to say, it's "mindless link propagation"), Slashdot employs a "tabloid" format (and always has been). It condenses news content and is not the type of news paper that you fold in half.

    4. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by future+assassin · · Score: 2

      I heard people saying that since 2002

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    5. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The clickbait works wonders. A few dogmatics line up to brawl on each side, and all the rest of the userbase posts to complain about how bad it's gotten. Toss in some meta-complaining about how posting to complain just furthers the success of the clickbait, and the random off-target combat when a dogmatic starts to attack a complainer.

      CLICKS FOR THE CLICKBAITERS!
      PAGEVIEWS FOR THE ADWORDS!

    6. Re:Slashdot is a tabloid. by AdamThor · · Score: 2

      Having noticed the trend in comment #'s over time, I guessed that it meant that the old audience has mostly moved on.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
  14. If a single piece of dust... by Kohath · · Score: 2

    If a single glass of water dumped on it keeps lays the whole computer out, don’t you think that’s some sort of problem?

    Um, no. Most failures of most systems are caused by a "single" thing.

    1. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps so, but most "single" things aren't so common as dust. You can be careful with a glass of water, but it's damn near impossible to maintain a dust-free environment.

    2. Re:If a single piece of dust... by chispito · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps so, but most "single" things aren't so common as dust. You can be careful with a glass of water, but it's damn near impossible to maintain a dust-free environment.

      Debris in a keyboard is a pretty common issue. Especially for laptops. Dust, hairs, crumbs. It's gross in there.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    3. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a 13-inch mid-2012 MacBook Pro, probably the last model that was easy to upgrade and work on instead of sending to Apple for repairs. That means it's pretty easy to open up: still, it's resisted water very well. I've spilled glasses of beer and a big glass (not a flute) of champagne directly onto the keyboard, each time thinking that I'd fried the laptop for sure. It's still chugging away, though, without any failure.

      Back in the day (not that long ago, but before the switch to disposable electronics with built-in obsolescence, so about five years ago), Apple made rugged machines that appealed to pros.

    4. Re:If a single piece of dust... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      It's still pretty hard to destruct a MacBook with moisture, most decent brands actually are fairly resistant these days. I've had plenty of people run into my office with a wet laptop, I turn it upside down with some paper towel and let it dry, 80% of the time, they survive, I've only had 1 failure of a 2012 MBP due to water spillage.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      I've got one of these.

      I remember when I got it I chose it because I could add Ram and upgrade the hard disk. And it's a nicely built machine once you put in 16GB and an SSD. Interesting thing is that you still see a lot of them in use.

      Of course in the long run Apple will kill them off because new OS releases won't run on them, and you'll need those new OS releases to build for iOS. And building for iOS is the only reason I bought an Apple over say Asus who'll sell you a whole range of machines from dirt cheap netbooks, to Apple-like ultrabooks to beefy gaming machines.

      I.e. at some point, even if I still need to build stuff for iOS it may well be that running macOS in VirtualBox on a PC is easier than running it on an old Macbook.

      I'd be very surprised if Apple go back to making machines with user upgradeable storage and Ram. In fact they seem to be trending to making things like the Wifi card non upgradeable.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    6. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. but on a real computer you just pop the keys off and clean it out with compressed air. 15 minutes and $5 if you don't already have a can of compressed air.
      On a mac, you replace half the machine. $700. But on the upside there is that lovely brushed metal, and the logo lights up.

    7. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thinkpad from 2012 is actually constructed to protect from water spilled on the keyboard, it has specific channels most of the water should run down.

    8. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://xkcd.com/237/

      I'm looking for one where the keyboard user declines an invitation to lunch, choosing keyboard germs instead. Can't find it. Maybe not xkcd, but Dilbert?

    9. Re:If a single piece of dust... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      That joke was made in an InkTank comic, character called it 'board chow'. Inltank seems to be offline now, and the joke may have been done by others...

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
  15. tl;dr version by painandgreed · · Score: 5, Funny

    Man who apparently breaks the keyboards on all the Mac Book Pros that he has ever owned is upset that all three times he has taken his new Mac Book pro into the Apple Store, the people there have offered him the same solution.

    BUY MACALLAN WHISKEY

    Finally, on the third trip, he allows them to fix the issue and bitches that it is a more involved process now than when he broke the keyboards on his previous versions.

    BUY MACALLAN WHISKEY

    1. Re:tl;dr version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the fanboy.

    2. Re:tl;dr version by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      It is a somewhat odd story for Slashdot - but congrats to the submitter for getting his rant published.

      Also, LAPHROAIG.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:tl;dr version by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Well, they do go into various laptop keyboard mechanics, and if the story had just been a segway into a detailed article on such, I wouldn't have minded such an article here, but as it was, it did just seem to be a rant. Honestly, the site wasn't near as click baity as most seem to be, but the whiskey ads were very conspicuous.

    4. Re:tl;dr version by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Found the Russian troll.

    5. Re:tl;dr version by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      GLENMORANGIE.

      BTW, how is Laphroaig compared to Bowmore? I've never had an Islay, but my friend swears by Bowmore.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    6. Re:tl;dr version by q4Fry · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ah, I see the problem: It's the spirits in his keyboard.

    7. Re:tl;dr version by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Never had Bowmore, but Laphroaig is nice. Has a smoky, peaty flavor.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    8. Re:tl;dr version by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Bowmore is less assertive. You don't feel like you're scraping your tongue off on a creosoted railroad tie, like with Laphroaig.

      Not like that's a bad thing, obviously.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    9. Re:tl;dr version by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      BTW, how is Laphroaig compared to Bowmore? I've never had an Islay, but my friend swears by Bowmore.

      Well, I remember that I like them both quite a lot... although it's been a while since I've had Bowmore.

      I just picked up a bottle of Laphroaig a couple weeks ago. I'd been on a bourbon kick for a while, so jumping right back into a strong-flavored Islay like Laphroaig is a bit of a shock. It has a really distinct peat-y flavor which might be a bit off-putting for some folks; but I rather like it.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    10. Re:tl;dr version by Alok · · Score: 1

      http://www.english-for-students.com/Segway-or-Segue.html :-)

    11. Re:tl;dr version by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Thanks for you're link to that sight.

    12. Re:tl;dr version by halivar · · Score: 1

      Tastes like swamp-water! Speyside or nothing.

    13. Re:tl;dr version by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Not even Highland? That's good stuff.

      Well, except Glenlivet, that's gone to hell in a handbasket. Their latest 10 year offering is rubbish, as aged SM scotches go.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    14. Re:tl;dr version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Casey Johnston is a woman.

    15. Re:tl;dr version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The submitter wrote a terrible summary, but that link in the wall of text is actually the article.

      So, it was her rant that was cut, pasted, and published.

    16. Re:tl;dr version by lazarus · · Score: 1

      Also, ARDBEG.

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    17. Re:tl;dr version by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Also, ARDBEG.

      I've never had it - but, having just read a review, I'm going to add it to my shopping list!

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    18. Re: tl;dr version by lazarus · · Score: 1

      If you like Laphroaig I think you will enjoy it. Happy to make the intro â" let me know what you think.

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    19. Re:tl;dr version by tmjva · · Score: 1

      Its Scotch, there is no "E" in their WHISKY.

      If it was From Ireland, Kentucky or Tennesee, yes there could be an "E" in it.

      --
      Tracy Johnson
      Old fashioned text games hosted below:
      http://empire.openmpe.com/
      BT
    20. Re:tl;dr version by halivar · · Score: 1

      What? Glenlivet Nadura is amazing, IMHO.

    21. Re:tl;dr version by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      No, the new "Founders Reserve".. for the money, it's swill.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  16. Send those Genius' to Fort Bliss by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    It sounds like they need training on cleaning out the dust. There's a special training program at Fort Bliss for that!

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  17. Genius by sdinfoserv · · Score: 4, Funny

    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    1. Re:Genius by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting the millennials to shell out an extra 40% for the silhouette of a half-eaten fruit?
      That's not just genius, that's fucking genius

    2. Re:Genius by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

      Inconceivable!

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  18. Courage! by Comboman · · Score: 4, Funny

    Only Apple has the courage to remove the dust filters.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:Courage! by computational+super · · Score: 2

      Oh no, it's just that the dust filters are $65 extra.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    2. Re: Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't let Apple do it, they'll brick your keyboard.

    3. Re:Courage! by zlives · · Score: 1

      think again the iDust filters are only available from the apple store for $299.99
      you can go with the cheaper amazon options but then, every one will know you did, and it voids your warranty.

    4. Re:Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Through a model specific filter port connector. If you ask other Apple users about 3rd party filters they will all warn you about how only Apple know how to correctly calibrate the filter for the correct particulate size, other filters could filter out the wrong particles resulting in catastrophic keyboard failure... so don't waste your money and risk your £2000 machine, get the proper filter from apple, it's worth the £100 for the 5p sponge in shiny white plastic carefully packaged for the MBP keyboard dust filter attachment un-boxing experience of a lifetime!!!!!!11!111 APPLE RULES

    5. Re:Courage! by zferrini · · Score: 1

      Trump Bots, isnt that a little harsh over a keyboard post? I was a Sanders supporter and look what the DNC did there! Oh and I dont really care about my Karma...M0roff!!!

    6. Re:Courage! by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Oh no, it's just that the dust filters are $65 extra.

      And come in the form of a dongle.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    7. Re:Courage! by Raistlin77 · · Score: 1

      ...and makes it catch fire or explode.

    8. Re:Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been going through Logitech's warranty RMA process for a defective mouse. It had started randomly left clicking when only clicked once. This behaviour somehow spread to affecting both the scroll wheel click and the side "back" button over the course of a couple of weeks. I had already tested it on another computer to confirm that it was in fact the mouse at fault and the Logitech support lady suggested that I spray some canned air into the crevices and seams of the mouse. I asked her if she was kidding, but no, she was really that clueless about technology. I asked her how she thought that would fix a problem like this and she said "it could be dust or dirt".

      *facepalm*

    9. Re: Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ants. Your mouse has an ants nest in it. Tie a long bit of string to it, go to the zoo and hang it over the edge of the anteater's cage (check anteater availability before you go). Leave it there for 30 minutes then retrieve. Job done!

    10. Re:Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a warranty story, but I had a mouse that worked fine most of the time, but would randomly stop working for a while. Buttons would click, but it wouldn't move the cursor. If I moved it wildly around the desk, it would sort of randomly work. Then, after a while, it would seem to start working again. It was a ball mouse. For those who aren't familiar with the internals, they worked rollers internally, two of which were at a 90 degree angle to each other and connected to wheels. A sensor would measure the spinning of the wheels to determine X and Y motion. The sensor on most of these was optical. So, I took this mouse apart multiple times. I would have just replaced it, but it was just so weird that I wanted to figure out what was going on. I remember when I finally figured out "Oh, it stops working when it's in direct sunlight". Basically, the case let enough light through that the sensors were overwhelmed and couldn't detect the wheels spinning.

    11. Re:Courage! by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Oh no, it's just that the dust filters are $65 extra.

      And not user serviceable.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    12. Re: Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a lifetime straight ticket Democrat voter, but I voted for Trump. I'm not a Trump supporter, but the identity politics, smug condescending insults, and victimhood Olympics of the modern left has probably made me into a straight Republican ticket voter.

      You're not alone. I'd have loved to have voted for Bernie, but they didn't need or care about me. Fuck em. Enjoy Trump.

    13. Re:Courage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember a problem I had with a modem a long time ago. At first it seemed like it was intermittently starting and stopping during a download. When I discovered that the starting and stopping coincided with when I was using the mouse, I checked the settings in Windows 98 and found that it had assigned the same IRQ to both the modem and the mouse. Apparently it was only generating interrupt requests while the mouse was in motion. When I reassigned the modem to its own IRQ, the problem went away.

  19. RIP Thinkpad by monkeyxpress · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sometime around 2005, I bought my first Thinkpad - second hand because they were pretty expensive machines - from a guy who had bought it overseas. I used it everyday as my work/home machine for about three years including travelling all over the world and taking it out on various work sites.

    One day, the left shift key on the worn-smooth keyboard fell off. The clip had worked its way lose and the key no longer had a proper detent. I thought I had had a pretty good run with the thing, but figured I'd see what a spare part would cost. To my amazement, the machine was still under IBM's global warranty. I rang them up on the toll free number, gave them the serial number, and asked if the keyboard was still covered. They said the parts were, but not labour, and asked if I would be able to change the keyboard myself. About 3 days later a new keyboard was couriered to me. I screwed it into place and got another year of use out of it before it just became too slow.

    I guess you payed for it in the price back then, but that is how you do customer service.

    1. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To this day I still use my Dell Latitude (C840) bought in 2002. Never had a problem with it whatsoever.

      Seriously, I'm using it right now. The screen is still better than any modern screen. 15 inch and 1600x1200.

    2. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Thinkpad service was amazing back before it was sold to Lenovo. One morning I called for a problem which was covered under warranty, expecting to be without the laptop for maybe a week. FedEx dropped off a shipping box within an hour. I packed it up and called FedEx, who picked it up in 30 minutes. It then flew from California to the IBM service center in Memphis TN I think? They located it right next to the FedEx hub so they could get deliveries earlier and send returns later than FedEx's normal pickup deadline. According to the tracking it arrived around 7pm. Their evening shift fixed the laptop, and got it back to FedEx in just about an hour, who then flew it back to California. Early next morning FedEx gave me my fixed laptop back. Total time I was without it was about 20 hours.

    3. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I screwed it into place and got another year of use out of it before the OS became too slow and I didn't bother to reinstall it or use a better one.

      Fixed that for you.

    4. Re:RIP Thinkpad by mrsam · · Score: 2

      Funny coincidence; last week I replaced the keyboard on my circa-2005 Thinkpad W520. The old keyboard was intact, but some of the keys, after over a decade of use, occasionally didn't register any more.

      Got a new keyboard, forty bucks off Amazon. Looked up a Youtube video. Before starting I thought I'd have to take the whole thing apart, but I only needed to remove two screws, and two more screws from the trap door.. Everything stayed in place, the keyboard popped out. Plonked the new one in, put all the screws back in. Five minutes.

      It's just as fast as it was more than ten years ago. It's a new laptop. Hope that it lasts me another decade.

    5. Re:RIP Thinkpad by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      So you mean the Macs are not expensive enough to get a proper service.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    6. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Oh they're expensive enough. It's just that Apple pockets most of that excess money, instead of investing it into service.

    7. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back when IBM owned the Thinkpad line it was definitely top notch.

    8. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Duncan+J+Murray · · Score: 1

      Not sure what machine you had back in 2005, but I bought a new T40 in 2003 and used it until 2012 (heavily upgraded). It was a joy to use and worth every penny of its huge asking price.

      These days I use a Thinkpad T450s. The keyboard, RAM, storage are all replaceable, the key feel is just as good, and if anything, it feels less bendy than my old T40. I think the modern equivalent is the T470 or T470s, and they are still very nice machines. With a three year on-site warranty.

    9. Re:RIP Thinkpad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes some notebooks are actually made to last, Apple products are meant to last for exactly 1 year after which you are expected to sleep in front of the apple store for a week to be one of the first to buy the next expensive disposable piece of shit

    10. Re:RIP Thinkpad by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      A replacement keyboard would have cost you about $15. Now do you think that the increased purchase price was worth it?

  20. Saw this article online last night ..... by King_TJ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Honestly, it's kind of amazing how quickly it was picked up by all different web sites and blogs! I've probably read 5 different discussions on the original article already this morning.

    The thing is? The "Genius" used the wrong terminology, in my opinion, which made things sound worse than they really are. A speck of dust is most assuredly NOT enough to jam up one of the new Apple keyboards. CRUMBS, however, from people eating by the machine? Absolutely possible.

    I had one of these "New Macbooks" when it first came out. Ordered the "high spec" configuration to test it out at work, using it as my own personal work computer, to get a feel for what it was and wasn't really capable of doing for us. (We have a lot of highly mobile employees who care more about a computer being lightweight and easy to carry around, plus long battery life, than raw CPU power. So it was potentially a good fit, vs. the Macbook Air 13" machines we've issued to most of them for years.)

    I really despised the keyboard design on it. Practically no key travel and just too easy to mistype things when I wasn't purposely typing extra slow. The 2017 edition has a slightly revised variation of the original keyboard and I tried that out at an Apple Store. IMO, still pretty awful, though MARGINALLY better tactile feel.

    I finally resold the thing after concluding it just wasn't enough of a full-fledged notebook computer for our needs. (I'd really just classify it as Apple's high-fashion/style idea of a netbook.) But I never had sticking keys on it. With that little bit of key travel though, it's clear to me you're going to have to take extra care to keep this machine clean. (Wash your hands before typing on it if you were just eating some toast or bread, for example.) It won't take much to get some crumbs or grains of sand or salt or what-not in there, messing up one of the small scissor type key-switches under the key-caps.

    I'll also say though, in Apple's defense? I've been using one of the latest models of external keyboards that's wireless, with the built-in rechargeable batteries that charge when you connect it via USB. After typing on that one quite a bit at home, still no real key issues. I try to keep it as clean as I can, but don't go to extrodinary lengths to do so either. Maybe the external ones just hold up a little bit better, or it's the fact they're not getting taken around so many different places where the environments aren't always as clean? Whatever the case, it's worked as well as can be expected. Still dislike the limited key travel on the new designs though, vs. what they had previously.

    1. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using one of the latest models of external keyboards that's wireless, with the built-in rechargeable batteries that charge when you connect it via USB

      And if it's Apple branded the batteries are not replaceable and you have to throw away the keyboard when the batteries don't charge. Meanwhile I still have the same keyboard from 1997.

    2. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      The thing is? The "Genius" used the wrong terminology, in my opinion, which made things sound worse than they really are.

      You have overlooked the fact that "speck of dust" was used by multiple Apple employees. That makes it an institutional problem either way.

    3. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by magarity · · Score: 1

      CRUMBS, however, from people eating by the machine? Absolutely possible

      This observation may be true but expecting a front line employee to say it to a customer of the general public is out of touch in a special way.

    4. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by sootman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > The thing is? The "Genius" used the wrong terminology, in my opinion, which made things sound
      > worse than they really are. A speck of dust is most assuredly NOT enough to jam up one of the
      > new Apple keyboards. CRUMBS, however, from people eating by the machine? Absolutely possible.

      Dust, crumbs, pollen, dandruff, boogers... whatever. I've been using computers in the same environments for 20+ years and laptops for 15+. If Apple's newly-designed keyboard cannot deal with the same things that EVERY SINGLE OTHER KEYBOARD has successfully handled in that time, APPLE FUCKED UP. Period, full stop, <local terminology of your choice>.

      I've been using Macs for 20+ years. I'm using one right now. This is what my ~ten- or fifteen-year-old keyboard looks right now. (Apple fans will know that they shipped these clear & graphite ones with early G4s. Later G4s came with white-and-clear keyboards, or maybe that started with G5s or white iMacs. Whatever. It's still pretty damn old. PowerMac G4s were discontinued in 2004.) You can see all the crumbs and stuff that have worked their way all the way underneath it. You can only imagine what's actually among all the keys right now.

      That picture is from today. You can see this post in the background. And I shot that pic with my iPhone. I like Apple stuff just fine. Like I said, I'm using a Mac right now, and I've used this keyboard since it was new. I've never had this or any other keyboard fail for such a trivial reason as DUST. Or even (God forbid) CRUMBS. Jony Ive needs to step out of his glorious white room and spend some time in the real world.

      Who knows, maybe he'll have a epiphany and make phones 2mm thicker and fill that space with battery. Hey, a boy can dream...

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    5. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by AntiSol · · Score: 1

      And if it's Apple branded the batteries are not replaceable and you have to throw away the keyboard when the batteries don't charge.

      ...AND he's saying that the built-in keyboard on his overpriced machine is so poor that he had to buy another keyboard for it to be usable. So he gave Apple more money for something half-way decent. Just like they want.

      And this is somehow "In Apple's defense".

      Meanwhile I still have the same keyboard from 1997.

      1997? pfft, lightweight. Model M with a 1989 manufacture date here ;)

    6. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by sootman · · Score: 1

      The first Apple laptop I bought was a white 800 MHz G3 iBook. Before WiFi was widespread, I used to open it up at work, load up a bunch of Slashdot tabs, and take it to a pizza place for lunch. You want to talk about crumbs? I had lunch with that thing literally hundreds of times. NO KEYBOARD FAILURES.

      If you tighten a bolt too much and it strips, you did it wrong. If you make a laptop so thin that it quits working reliably, you did it wrong.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    7. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Options expire tomorrow. Bears need to get the stock at least under 160 by close of market tomorrow-- but ideally closer to 155.

    8. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen crumbs in keyboards. It doesn't make a key repeat. It makes it harder to press down.

    9. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      I hate Apple's keyboards and their mice have been crap since the original iMac so I always toss them or just give them to a Goodwill type store. I don't understand why they don't make and offer an actual mechanical keyboard like they used to as the Apple Extended Keyboard II was (and still is since they'll last longer than their users in some cases) a great keyboard to use.

      You can probably get any number of other mechanical keyboards that will work just as well and I think some companies like Das even have a mac specific model. I can understand that it would be pretty damned difficult to fit a mechanical keyboard with good switches into a notebook, especially as thin as Apple likes to make them, but there's no excuse for desktops, especially desktops being sold to professionals. Give us a nice keyboard that feels delightful to type on and helps to reduce RSI rather than something that may look nice and slim, but is miserable to use.

    10. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've owned lots of Macbook Pro's over the years, and presently have three recent models. None of the keyboards have had any problems. This is not a pervasive problem that Ive has introduced. There's a lot of things you can blame on Ive, but this isn't one of them.

      Totally with you on the battery point. Although I do also appreciate lightness, I can't stand the camera sticking out. Make the fuckers thicker!

    11. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by Megane · · Score: 1

      Who wants that when they can have the THINnest computer? You don't need to type on it, you just need to hold your laptop sideways and people will stand aside and do everything for you!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    12. Re:Saw this article online last night ..... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Off by a day... long week... but wow, looking at Apple's performance today I think I need to play the lottery!

  21. It's a feature... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not a bug. Now you use your space bar half as much!

    1. Re:It's a feature... by Guybrush_T · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Kind of an "auto-fire" button. Twice as fast, guaranteed to wipe out all enemies.

    2. Re:It's a feature... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Double-tap, with an occasional misfire when you hit the dead key.

  22. Bouncy-Bouncy—debouncy by Eric+Stratton · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Key bounce error".

    When you depress a key, any key, the contacts do not perfectly connect; they bounce. Electrical engineers fight key bounce error — basically by trial and error — with debounce by adjusting the computer to read the key input then wait. If there are other bounces within a few milliseconds, they are ignored. Then the computer starts looking for keyboard inputs, again.

    When keys go bad— one way that keys go bad is the contacts don't contact-and-release as quickly as expected, and, the computer reads a second key input.

    That's why, on some keyboards, the "space bar" goes bad, or the 'E' or the "T" or "A" or "O" or "N"...

    "Bouncing is the tendency of any two metal contacts in an electronic device to generate multiple signals as the contacts close or open; debouncing is any kind of hardware device or software that ensures that only a single signal will be acted upon for a single opening or closing of a contact."

    1. Re:Bouncy-Bouncy—debouncy by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      It seems like dust could cause a "bounce error" too.

      Put something with some vertical size in the right place and the circuit could be closed twice, with the particle acting like the fulcrum on a seesaw.

      Unless Apple completely redesigned how those keys work, there is a plastic/rubber key over a spring of some kind (sometimes a rubber nipple) which presses a membrane with conductive material on one axis "across" through a second membrane with holes, that line up with a third membrane with "down" axis conductive stripes. They are quite simple really.

      Rocking the membrane over the dust particle could cause two actual contacts, maybe even slower than "bounce error" checking would account for.

      Opening the case and applying proper canned air to the keyboard edge where the membranes might be exposed could very well fix the problem.

    2. Re:Bouncy-Bouncy—debouncy by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      They did redesign the keyboards so they could have an ultra-low profile. It uses a "butterfly" mechanism. I don't know much more than that.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:Bouncy-Bouncy—debouncy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG. Yes, we ALL know what bounce it. It's a known issue, with known fixes for decades. "Trial and error" is BS.

    4. Re:Bouncy-Bouncy—debouncy by original+bit+basher · · Score: 1
      Excessive contact bounce or circuit ring is the first thing I thought of. Software, and likely hardware, likely copes with "normal" amounts of it.

      If I hadn't seen some prior driver code testing "not ready" twice in a row I may have never solved the problem for a driver I was working on.

      if ( ! device_ready(device) && ! device_ready(device) ) throw xxx:not_ready("device not ready");

  23. I wonder what would happen.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If Bill Gates bought out Apple and became it's new Steve Jobs?

  24. Moving toward no keyboard by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The touch bar is just the opening volley. Meanwhile Apple is doing the boiled frog thing with key travel, slowly getting users used to less and less key travel.

    Eventually, they will probably replace the entire keyboard with a touch-board of some kind and expect that users will simply adjust. I think they've lost the plot somewhere.

    Note this is not my original idea -- Merlin Mann mentioned it on the Back to Work podcast and I think he's spot on. And he's a huge Apple fan.

    --
    Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    1. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Done right, it might not be that bad. I have a Lenovo YogaBook, which has a touch surface for its keyboard, and figured it would be okay for typing short bits of text but wanted something for longer typing sessions, so I picked up a small Bluetooth keyboard to go with it. I used the Bluetooth keyboard for longer sessions, as I had intended, for less than a week before I had gotten used to the touch surface enough that the occasional hiccup no longer outweighs the effort of carrying the Bluetooth keyboard everywhere.

      There is a bit of a learning curve, and there are times when the thing just is not responsive, but I've only had it for 3 weeks and I can already type as fast on it as I can type on the MacBook Pro I'm using currently or the Model M clone at my desk. That said, having used Apple's new keyboards briefly, if their touch-only keyboard is anything like the current MacBook Pros, I'll pass.

      Honestly, it's fine for the Android version of the YogaBook, but I wouldn't want it for a full laptop, or even the Windows YogaBook, which is why I chose the Android version to begin with: the whole reason they used a touch surface keyboard is that the touch surface doubles as a drawing surface and that intrigued me. All in all, it was a good purchase, serves the need for which I bought it (a decent portable solution for drawing and writing with digital capture) and, quite unexpectedly, has all but replaced a traditional laptop for the vast majority of non-work use cases.

      If Apple wanted to sell me something like that for $600 or so (I paid about $350 for the Anrdoid version), I'd probably buy it, provided the typing experience was somewhat improved and it ran macOS rather than iOS. Oh, and battery life; I've gotten two days out of the YogaBook, though I more typically get 12-15 hours. I would expect Apple's offering to beat that at nearly double the price.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 1

      The problem as I see it with Apple doing this is that it doesn't make a lot of sense for most MacBook Pro users. At least that's my understanding of the market. Perhaps Apple is privy to market information that I'm not (in fact I'm sure they are). However, when I hear life-long die-hard Apple power users complaining about MacBook Pros and Mac Pros for years in a row, feeling like they've been abandoned by Apple, maybe there's something to that.

      I was a hard-core Mac user from 2001-2008, but I realized they were moving away from my needs after that in favor of iOS and jumped ship.

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    3. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Oh, I wasn't suggesting that it would be a good move. On the contrary, I was suggesting it might not be as bad as people think. I've only been a Mac user since about 2010 or so and I view 2011 as the peak of the Mac's user-centric life; it's been all downhill form there IMO. My wife's been a hardcore Mac fan since the Bondi Blue iMac and she's only come to see Apple's decline with the 2016 MBP models. She's still strongly in the "just give me a Mac" camp, but their grip on her is weakening with every update.

      I don't even try to get her to switch to PC anymore; she already gave up her MacBook Pro in favor of a PC laptop for casual gaming, and I keep hearing how much better Windows is getting with each update (I disagree, but I let her hold that opinion since it serves her well) and how much of a headache that 2016 27" 5k iMac with all the bells and whistles that she just had to have is becoming every time she uses it.

      I think we'll have one less Mac user in a few years when the iMac finally breaks down.

      Or someone at Apple will pull their head out of their ass and design a high-end Mac that's actually hign-end again. It's not too late, they could still pull it off. Maybe my next workstation will be a Mac Pro and my wife's next design system will be an iMac; I have sincere doubts of that, though. They will be considered. They always are.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    4. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by phorm · · Score: 2

      It's not just a responsiveness thing though, there are also RSI considerations. Keys with resistance reduce finger velocity as they "click", which is why some people who do a lot of typing prefer the old clickity-clack or cherry-style keys.
      Touch devices are pretty much full velocity for every tap, followed by an abrupt termination when you hit the virtual "key". Basically, it's like drumming your fingers against a wall. That's not particularly good health-wise in the long term.

    5. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The YogaBook gets around that (and provides a good drawing surface as well) by placing a thin and flexible acrylic surface atop a springy/rubbery/i'm-not-sure-what-because-i-haven't-disassembled-it surface to give some bounce. It's not ideal and a physical keyboard is still preferable, but it's not horrible, either.

      Would I type on it all day? Hell no, I have a Model M clone for that. Is it acceptable for convertible/tablet use on the go when I don't want to carry a Bluetooth keyboard? Surprisingly so, to the point that I no longer bother carrying the keyboard most of the time.

      Of course, Apple would put it behind the hardest mineral glass they can find and it would suck. Which is sad, because if anyone has the resources to do it "right", it's Apple.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    6. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I despise touch typing. No matter how good you get on the keyboard, you end up looking at the keyboard instead of what you're typing. If they go that route, I've bought my last Mac.

    7. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by phorm · · Score: 1

      What I'm still surprised about is that the "convertible" devices still haven't caught on: Something where you drop your phone/tablet/etc in a dock and then it attaches to accelerated hardware.

      I guess only of the problems is that most mobile devices and ARM and/or Android/iOS based which doesn't exactly lend to a great desktop experience. Still, most mobile devices are getting beefy enough that they can run some fairly heavy apps/games if you add a little horsepower when docked. Maybe something like a Switch for a general purpose PC/mobile device.

    8. Re:Moving toward no keyboard by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Java and other bytecode-compiled languages (and, if top performance isn't a concern, most interpreted languages) being architecture-independent is a huge step toward this, actually. Think of the phone being primarily a storage device, with a screen, basic inputs, and enough processing power to do the most common smaller tasks. We would only need the bootloader and runtimes to be compiled for each hardware platform and, truthfully, that could be done by the phone the first time it docks: poll the device we're docking to, download any necessary tools or code, and off we go. The resulting binaries can live on the docking device, rather than the phone; though, if the phone becomes primarily a storage device, one could expect to have several terabytes of storage, so they could be kept on the phone as well -- which would bring the benefit of the phone being able to update any stored binaries for previously-used docking devices on-the-fly.

      In such a system, the phone would, when docked, likely still serve as a phone (via bluetooth, or by interfacing with the docking device for audio and dialing purposes), but cease all other function aside from acting as storage for the docking device, which would contain more powerful hadrware.

      We literally have the technology today. I'm as baffled as you are that it hasn't taken off yet.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  25. Hilarious clickbait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Nice slashdot clickbait. msmash searching the sewers of the internet for someone bitching about Apple.

    Meanwhile, all those Android phones are still not patched and fully exposed to many exploits. And Google does nothing. Except bow down low to the Twitter insane asylum when they add a calorie counter to Maps.

    But yeah, let's highlight one guy's problem with his keyboard.

    1. Re:Hilarious clickbait by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      In fairness, when manufacturers lock their bootloaders and sign their firmware with certificates Google does not have access to, what the fuck is Google supposed to do about it?

      That's a serious question and I expect a serious answer.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re: Hilarious clickbait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple found a way. Google can to.

    3. Re: Hilarious clickbait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was a woman who had the problem.

      And, her article was well written, and did a great job of capturing the special tude that only an Apple Store Genius brings: ineptitude covered by millennial hipster ish hubris and derision.

      If you nerd's looked beyond the tech, the more fundamental message was the Genius fail.

    4. Re:Hilarious clickbait by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      In fairness, when manufacturers lock their bootloaders and sign their firmware with certificates Google does not have access to, what the fuck is Google supposed to do about it? That's a serious question and I expect a serious answer.

      Fine. They could have simply told the manufacturers from the start to make sure people could update their phones without a problem.

      But that would have gotten in the way of stuffing all kinds of shit into Android phones, so nobody would have made and sold any Android devices.

      So ultimately, no they couldn't have done anything, because the customer doesn't matter (at least to anyone but Apple).

      Sorry if that isn't the answer you wanted to hear.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    5. Re:Hilarious clickbait by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      So ultimately, no they couldn't have done anything

      That was kind of my point.

      the customer doesn't matter (at least to anyone but Apple)

      I find it amusing that you think the consumer matters to Apple. That remark makes me question how serious you were actually trying to be, but if Apple cared about the consumer we wouldn't have nonstandard drive interfaces and soldered-in RAM in Macs, the Mac Mini wouldn't have taken a massive step toward the garbage heap in 2013, and the Mac Pro would still be a proper tower.

      Sorry if that isn't the answer you wanted to hear.

      ~ Sent from my MacBookPro11,3 running OS X Yosemite

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    6. Re:Hilarious clickbait by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      So ultimately, no they couldn't have done anything

      That was kind of my point.

      Well, you clearly didn't understand my point then.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    7. Re:Hilarious clickbait by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      No, I got your point; did you miss the part where you, yourself, implied that no manufacturer would have touched it had they locked it down from day one? We seem to agree on that point, which would have made Android a non-starter. In short, there's nothing Google could have done to prevent this situation from day one and see any sort of market success with Android. That was my point and it was very strongly implied in yours.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    8. Re:Hilarious clickbait by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      No, I got your point;

      No you didn't. My point wasn't that Google "simply had to" kill its uncle because his inheritance was the only way tp get rich.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    9. Re:Hilarious clickbait by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Then, perhaps, restate your point more clearly? I'm not gonna sit here and play guessing games with you.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  26. Depends... by burtosis · · Score: 2

    What kind of dust was it? Cheeto, brake, nose candy? Maybe you were simply traveling too fast? Left somewhere in a hurry? My bet is just that the guy had no clue and just wanted to dust you off.

  27. Shocked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am shocked, shocked that people think that when it comes Apple hardware, newer means crappier! Who would have guessed?! How, oh how, did this impression get started? I just can't imagine!!

  28. Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer... by aicrules · · Score: 1, Funny

    Maybe it's the water you spilled on it that you don't want to admit? Or maybe Geniuses aren't actually thoroughly trained in all computer hardware diagnostics as you seem to think they are? These aren't typically electrical engineers. They aren't dumb, but they aren't likely able to tear down a computer, find and fix a broken connection, and put it back together again. You're just as likely to run into the Genius crew moonlighting as a McD cashier.

  29. Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I loved my 17" MacBook Pro.

    I liked my 2015 15.4" MacBook Pro.

    I hate my 2017 15.4" MacBook Pro.

    It is the shiniest piece of shit I have ever had the displeasure of trying to use. The charger has failed twice, taking out one of my USB-C ports in the process (required a logic board swap). The keyboard has failed twice- the first time they replaced the entire upper half of the machine, the second time they figured out it was a tiny piece of hair stuck under the space bar and were able to clean it out (dunno how, the keys are so fragile you'll break them if you try to pop them off).

    Then the SSD died. Twice. I lost all my data both times (apparently the adapter you need to recover data from the logic board isn't easy to find- our Apple store doesn't have one, so they considered it a lost cause right away and replaced the logic board each time). Then the discrete GPU went, at which point they gave me a whole new machine- which is already showing signs of a bad dGPU chipset (corrupt graphics under load, machine freezes, have to forcibly restart it) and occasionally has keyboard issues too, likely due to "dust" and/or hair.

    I have rapidly come to learn that I can no longer rely on Apple hardware. They care so much about form over function they forgot to build a usable machine. Thankfully I've moved most of my critical tasks to other (non-Apple) machines, which is something I thought I'd never have to do when I bought into their ecosystem around '03. I don't know what else I'm supposed to do though when they're not manufacturing any sort of machine I can rely on or has the specifications I'd expect from a $3500 computer.

    I guess that's what happens when the bean counters take over and turn everything into a disposable appliance... Oh well.

    1. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      My keyboard has the issue where some keys make a crunching noise instead of the click that the other keys make. If you google on it, it is a rather large issue. I've been trying to put up with it because it would be a PITA to get the body changed and all they do is give you a shell that might have the same problem.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. With apple products the problem is always the user. You are what is wrong with machine. apple is flawless.

    3. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My keyboard has the issue where some keys make a crunching noise instead of the click that the other keys make.

      Don't eat sesame buns while sitting at the computer.

    4. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't eat over your keyboard if you don't like the consequences of doing so.

    5. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I've never eaten over my keyboard, I've never spilled anything on my keyboard. Many people who don't eat over their keyboard have this issue.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by sandbagger · · Score: 1

      What removed in the last few years
        MagSafe
        Wired mice/keyboard
        Semi-matte and matte finish for monitors
        Monitors
        Creative professional software
        Admin tools for remote management of large deployments of Macs
        Educational market support
        Headphone jacks
        Desktops that use desktop hardware, not low-power mobile device hardware
        Machines that support more than 16 gigs of RAM

      What they've added
        Watchbands
        Battery powered mice and keyboards that cannot have their power cells changed

      --
      ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
    7. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I loved my 17" MacBook Pro.

      I liked my 2015 15.4" MacBook Pro.

      I hate my 2017 15.4" MacBook Pro.

      Same. Well, I still love my 17" MBP, it just can't run macOS or Windows anymore because both attempt to use the dead dGPU; it's a great Linux system, though. That and my 15.4" is a late 2013 model, but I still like it well enough (I'm using it right now). I was smart enough to try out the 2016 and 2017 models in-store and realize I hated them before making a purchase decision, thus I still have the 2013.

      But yes, Apple has gone downhill. Far and fast.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    8. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Megane · · Score: 1

      Machines that support more than 16 gigs of RAM

      How could they remove that when they never had it? Unless you're talking about the Mac Pro, in which case, what the fuck.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    9. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by Megane · · Score: 1

      I sent my 17" off to NYC to get the GPU replaced, it cost me around $300 including the shipping to send it. He had a listing on ebay for it. Of course mine died early this year, right after the extended "we fucked up" warranty expired at the end of last year. Thanks Nvidia for making crappy mobile GPUs for two or three years. (the problem is the internal mounting in the chip, don't just reheat the bad chip, get it replaced)

      You can get it to sort of work if you disable the driver by hiding its files, but display performance is crap, and even scrolling in the Finder is flickery in 10.9.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    10. Re:Probably dust or hair, these machines suck. by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I'm quite aware of the issue. The first time it died in the middle of a work day, I deemed it not worth fixing and went out and bought a new machine within the hour so I could continue my work day rather than giving my machine to Apple for 2 weeks and being without a computer for that duration. Of course, I have a number of systems from which I can work today, but I didn't the day that GPU died.

      It's been happily running Ubuntu since the day after the GPU crapped out.

      By the way, the crap performance you mention seems to imply that you also hid or disabled the drivers for the Intel GPU, as Intel-only MBPs of that era don't have the flickering issue you mention. You could probably get acceptable desktop performance out of it (certainly not usable for gaming) if you managed to disable only the nVidia driver.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  30. Easy Fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop buying Apple products you idiots.

    1. Re:Easy Fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us have to because we're iPhone developers. I would be more than happy to do iPhone development on another platform.

    2. Re:Easy Fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to have a macbook to be an iphone developer....

  31. plot of Michael Douglas 'Disclosure' movie? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wasn't this predicted in the movie based on Crichton's novel? Where Apple (well a fictional company based on Apple) is building CD players that are being ruined by too much dust in the factory? Well that's my memory of the movie- it was sold as 'erotic' but that's the least memorable aspect. Oh, and I think the movie had a VR office app that our hero used.

    Anyhoo Apple has publicly stated their crap is built to fail around the moment the guarantee expires (in court as well) - in order to generate sales for their new crap. Apple operates on the principle "never give a sucker an even break". So if you are a dribbler whining about your Apple crap, you are getting the intended experience.

  32. The tech was trained to use this answer by Streetlight · · Score: 1

    Every problem is caused by a piece of dust. This is like when we go into Costco and a food item that's usually available can't be found and when an employee is asked about it the answer is, "That's a seasonal item." I'm sure that's what the managers tell employees to say in answer to such a question. We get that answer when asking about canned mushrooms. Sams Club has them, why not Costco? After all, mushrooms are grown in the dark year round and are available pretty much year round in all grocery stores. Maybe it's the cans that are only made in the summer for Costco's canned mushrooms.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  33. Shows a complete lack of understanding... by freeze128 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The "Genius" (heh, yeah, right) shows his complete lack of understanding on how something as simple as a switch works. Hell, there aren't even any active components in it. It's just 2 conductive surfaces coming into contact. A crumb might prevent that altogether, or make it so that you would have to press harder in order to get your character. Getting *TWO* characters sounds to me like a cracked trace. This used to happen on heavily used mouse buttons. When you press down on the button lightly, it closes the switch. If you keep pressing and increase the force slightly, it flexes the PCB which expands the crack enough to break the current flow. Then, as you release the pressure, it reconnects again until you completely disengage the switch.

    Either way, the solution is simple: REPLACE THE KEYBOARD!

    Also, what they hell kind of "diagnostic" are they running that displays a progress bar in a non-interactive way? If there is a problem with the keyboard, you need to interact with it to test it!

    1. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Getting *TWO* characters sounds to me like a cracked trace.

      Right now I have an early 2011 Mac Book pro that is my main machine. The H, J, K and L keys started working intermittently a while back (which is a bit of a problem as to unlock the computer I need to use the J key). Obviously a cracked trace.

      I called Apple to ask about a replacement keyboard and the person on the phone couldn't/wouldn't tell me how much it would cost.

      I called a local non-Apple Apple store and they told me it would be about $400 and take about 1 to 2 days to actually replace it. I didn't have the time to spare then, so I just bought a $99 Apple blue tooth mini-keyboard (which fits nicely on the front of laptop over the track pad which I never use) and I have been using it ever since.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      the solution is simple: REPLACE THE KEYBOARD!

      uh... we're talking about a Mac here.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    3. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mouse double click issue is usually caused by the spring in the microswitch.
      You can open it up and rebend it to fix it. I've done it many times.

      http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/594646-How-to-fix-the-double-click-problem-on-your-G7-mouse

    4. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by sconeu · · Score: 1

      My old MS Intellimouse 2.0 had that issue. Thank you for explaining why it happened. Seriously. I wound up trashing it for a Logitech.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either way, the solution is simple: REPLACE THE KEYBOARD!

      The problem with Apple is that when there is a hardware flaw, they will not admit it... instead to mitigate the immediate cost of fixing it, they prefer to spend less in the form of "Genius" employees time (aka anyone <20 yrs old willing to work minimum wage).

      The general approach then is to go though a number of scripted steps regardless of the problem, usually: do hardware test, re-install OS, replace hard-drive (first cheapest replaceable component), re-install OS, replace next cheapest component etc.

      If the problem is sporadic this script will loop as they pretend (or believe?) it is fixed. This will also waste your time, after a number of trips your will get tired and frustrated and either live with the issue or demand a replacement of some kind... which will result in either a logic board replacement or a complete machine replacement. At this point it might seem like a loss for Apple, but the thing is that your new machine was already manufactured, it also has the flaw and will fail in a matter of time.

      If you have the technical initiative to figure out what the problem is yourself then you can sometimes skip to the end of that horrible loop by demmanding a replacement and sighting the issue, but this is easier said than done due to their denialistic distortion field. I'm speaking from experience of some older generation machines which experienced the shitty low lead microfracturing soldier on nvidia GPU dies (something that affected all PCs at the time during a forced industry transition), they send people in the same loop with logic board and machine replacements until they grew tired and stopped trying. The point being that apple will rather send you in circles than give the media anything more to chew on to taint it's "magical shiny apple is perfect image" for the mass consumer.

      Most of the machines with the microfracturing soldier issues ended up dead or eventually Apple underclocked the GPU in a firmware update... so their fix resulted in 0 in hardware expenditure and a machine performing well under what the customers paid for. Honestly I know Apple's hardware quality is pretty good on average... but this absurd style of denial if you get bitten leaves a bitter taste, thankfully I use Linux, so I can say fuck their hardware.

    6. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either way, the solution is simple: REPLACE THE KEYBOARD!

      from TFA: the keyboard cannot be replaced, you need to replace the whole upper assembly, a 700$ part because of a keyboard problem, good thing it is still under warranty.

    7. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by imidan · · Score: 1

      Yeah, a relative of mine had a Dell laptop where eventually one of the keys would require a very hard press to work at all, and when it did it would often produce two of whatever character (I think it was 'h'). We bought a new keyboard on Amazon for roughly $25 and it took maybe 45 minutes to install. It took longer than I expected because we had to pry a bunch of plastics apart.

      On an earlier Dell that I'd had, removing the keyboard was a matter of unscrewing all of the screws marked 'K' on the bottom of the laptop, then pulling up the keyboard and undoing the ribbon cable. Replacing that one was a matter of 5 or 10 minutes.

      It's all a lot easier if you don't insist on the laptop having no visible fasteners.

    8. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uh, you have a lack of understanding of how apple laptops are built. "replace the keyboard" is not a simple solution, because it involves completely disassembling the computer to replace the top plate, which is what everything else is screwed into. it costs about $700 to fix a broken keyboard on a mac laptop out of warranty.

    9. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the standard barrage of automated triage tests, at least the ones Apple will perform in front of the customer. It's basically checking sensors and stuff from the SMC.

      But yea, the keyboard is clearly faulty. Too bad they don't do that at an Apple store; gotta replace the top case. Thanks for nothing, Tim.

    10. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The H, J, K and L keys started working intermittently

      Spotted the vi user ...

    11. Re:Shows a complete lack of understanding... by Megane · · Score: 1

      Replacing the keyboard in a Unibody is no fun, but at least it's possible. The easy way is swap out the entire top case. The harder but cheaper way is to replace just the keyboard. Both require you to remove the entire guts of the computer, but the latter requires you to remove 70 or so tiny little screws. I can only imagine that the new touch bar keyboards are even worse. Is it even possible to keep the old touch bar when replacing the case top? Imagine having to replace that as well as the top case, when it's just the crappy $15 keyboard inside that is broken.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  34. Macbook keyboards are interesting. by hey! · · Score: 1

    I can't comment on recent ones, but I have a 2011 17" MBP in the kitchen doing light duty. I picked it up cheap because it wouldn't boot. The problem was a bad keyboard, which I replaced.

    The keyboard, at least on the old MBPs, feels very solid, but when you get the replacement it's incredibly thin and flimsy; the metal body is little more than foil. You could easily fold it in half like a piece of paper. It's basically a flimsy dome switch keyoboard with a mechanical gizmos added to the key to give it a crisper feel. This also means its unlikely to be a piece of dust causing your problems -- unless the dust was put there in the factory. The business parts of the switch are safely under a silicone membrane.

    What give the installed keyboard its solid feel is that it is screwed into the very sturdy aluminum laptop chassis with dozens of tiny screws. What you feel when you type on it is not the solidity of the keyboard, but of the heavy sheet of aluminum it is very firmly attached to. This is how the engineers got the machine to feel sturdy and light at the same time.

    My advice is if the key seems mechanically good but doesn't register, first test an external keyboard to make sure it's not some kind of software issue, then replace the whole keyboard. It's not a particularly complicated repair, but be advised the screws are tiny, about the size of coarsely ground coffee. A fine jeweler's phillips head screwdriver, strong magnifier, and a large expanse of uncluttered workspace is recommended. The screws are small enough you can't just put them into the hole. You have to nudge them into the hole and hope they go in business end first, which takes several tries.

    Also: given the severe abuse keyboards get in normal use, I recommend using an external keyboard whenever you can; that way you can just toss the keyboard when it breaks. Only use the laptop keyboard when you're on the road. This also gives you the chance to get a keyboard that you really like.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Macbook keyboards are interesting. by Megane · · Score: 1

      You needed magnets, both one to keep the screw on the screwdriver, and another to collect a ball of the removed screws to keep them from rolling away.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  35. S-Drive by cstacy · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's not dust; it's spores that have "contaminated" the keyboard enclosure.

    You see, spores (such as from Psilocybe cubensis) are the basis of the universe.
    They are everywhere, sometimes manifested in our physical plane, but always existing
    everywhere on the mycoplane of Space. At the lowest level, biology is physics, and
    physics recapitulates biology -- they are the same thing. It's all quantum, you see.

    Your problem is that you've got a stuck spore. You need to energize it properly,
    and it will instantly transmit (quantum spore teleport) the key's signal to any part
    of the UNICODE. Your brain will function as the quantum sentience that directs
    the action, so that instead of a SPACE, you'll get the correct symbol pressed.

    (This is related to why sometimes electronics gear that has not been stored
    properly for a while will spew out "dust" when you fire it up, or why sometimes
    it seems like there are dead cockroaches or mouse turds inside the box.)

    SOLUTION:

    The Genius Bar is actually stocked with dehydrated tardigrades.
    If the moisture (liquid spill incursion) sensor in your Mac has not been triggered,
    an Apple representative can insert a tardigrade into your machine along with an
    eyedropper of water. Using horizontal DNS zone transfer (I think that's what it's
    called; something to do with binding, anyway) the tardigrade will interact with
    and energize the spore, curing your SPACE key bounce problem. This is known as
    a "key de-bounce" procedure. If your tech doesn't seem to know all this just
    have him look it up in the knowledge base; it's standard.

    Just make sure he doesn't hold the tardigrade wrong, or your laptop will
    start spinning and twisting, ad the end result will not be pretty.

    I paid $6 to learn all this, by the way.

    1. Re:S-Drive by AntiSol · · Score: 1

      I think I want to have your babies.

    2. Re:S-Drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too much Terence McKenna!

    3. Re:S-Drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sure that tardigrade won't break out and eat the house down?

    4. Re:S-Drive by UBfusion · · Score: 1

      I am ecstatic, it's one of those rare moments when I do "get the reference" in a US-centric discussion forum! (I'm in EEU, the Established European Universe)

      Star Trek: Discovery S01E04. Spores, physics, biology, quanta, evil, yes. Dust specs - no.

      I paid $0 to learn all this - I'm a Clingon pirate.

    5. Re:S-Drive by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Oh, man! Didn't you hear? Everyone on slashdot hates the new Star Trek and refuses to watch it. I'm sorry you wasted your time.

  36. Mac repair extortion racket by sremick · · Score: 1

    Remember when MacBook keyboards were actually repairable? A few seconds without tools and anyone could swap it out.

    Now they're fused into the "top case" which is effectively half of the computer chassis... also with the battery epoxied in. So you're faced with a lengthy full-disassembly repair plus a very expensive part for any exhausted battery or bad keyboard. You know, TWO OF THE MOST COMMON PARTS YOU NEED TO REPLACE ON A LAPTOP.

    Not to mention that the new keyboards are shit... no key travel whatsoever, it's like pounding your fingers against solid brick. But apparently such a "courageous" move to a shit keyboard was NECESSARY because "OMG THINNER!". Because apparently everyone cares that their laptop is 0.01oz lighter at the expense of usability, practicality, battery life, performance... and pay no attention to the 10oz of adapters you need to carry around now because you lost all your ports, which cost $30-60/ea and get lost frequently (Apple thanks you for your continued patronage every month).

    1. Re:Mac repair extortion racket by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      And apparently it's your fault if you have a home where contaminants such as toast crumbs and pet dander are not removed automatically by a microfiltering air cleaning system.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Mac repair extortion racket by sremick · · Score: 1

      Well, admittedly: don't use your $2K laptop as a food placemat. It's not that hard to NOT FUCKING EAT OVER YOUR COMPUTER.

  37. Re:Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer.. by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 1

    I'd just like to compliment you for understanding the difference between training and intelligence.

  38. Think of it as a learning experience by boudie2 · · Score: 1

    Don’t have the inclination to look back on any mistake
    Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break
    In the fury of the moment I can see the Master’s hand
    In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand
    Bob Dylan

  39. Re:Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have two macbook's and both exhibit the dust behavior. I've spilled no water on either and it's really just based o the day of the week if the shift key feels like going down when pressed or spacebar is in the mood to space. Pretty trash

  40. Dell Business Dell Home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an added anecdote, a few years ago I decided to buy a new monitor for my gfx / photography side business and found a great deal on a 27" 4K IPS monitor. The monitor could be had from either Dell Home or Dell Small Business, the latter being about $30 more. I ordered from Small Business, having experienced much better service on that side in the past.

    This was an early IPS 4K monitor, and sure enough, Dell apparently had trouble getting stock in. From forum threads, I learned that most of the people who ordered through Dell Home eventually either had to cancel their orders or had their orders cancelled. Those of us who ordered through Small Business were contacted and asked if we wanted a 'equivalent' model that was in stock.

    In my case, that meant (1) 4K (2) IPS and (3) at least 27 inches. After I rejected two non-IPS monitors, I was offered a considerably more expensive 32" model for the same price and accepted.

    I've since only dealt with that side of Dell and haven't had any negative exchanges.

  41. Apple no longer designs for resilience: Film at 11 by sandbagger · · Score: 1

    Only rich people can afford to buy junk.

    Goods that are valuable last a long time and that usually means repairable. Disposable is typically synonymous with irreparable. Apple hardware (I'm looking at you, Mac Pro full size tower) used to be repairable, using very high quality stock parts. Their last great laptop, the 17 inch, similarly was similarly repairable.

    However repairable also means you can modify it, upgrade it and extend its value. Apple has stopped being that company. Their repair program is 'throw it out and buy another'. However, they'll promote themselves as a green company despite this nonsense.

    My Mac hardware is ageing. I'm waiting to see what happens when the new tower is released and after decades of being their customer starting with the Apple 2, I may well admit the truth -- they abandoned me and what I consider to be good hardware.

    --
    ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
  42. What they're really trying to say... by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 2

    What they are really trying to say is, "stop eating over your keyboard. You've got so much cruft in there, I'm surprised any of your keys work. Dried Pepsi, cat hair, and Cornflakes are not good for your keyboard."

    --

    Lodragan Draoidh
    The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    1. Re:What they're really trying to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://man-machine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/8-ashtray.jpg worse things have happened to cheaper keyboards with no loss of function

    2. Re:What they're really trying to say... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      The OP isn't much of an Apple Fanboi if there isn't at least some semen in there, gluing the cat hair and cornflakes together.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  43. What's the answers?? by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

    I really wanna know how the Genius replied to your question!

    --
    I tend to rant.
    1. Re:What's the answers?? by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 1

      "I really think it's Space Dust. I read an article on NASA's website about it. It's a growing problem."

      --
      SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
  44. Dust my ### by TheAngryCat · · Score: 1

    An Apple genius is by no means a technician. Their job is to get rid of you as fast and as effectively as possible. Apple can't be recalling keyboards because of cheap, unreliable design. Buy a PC

  45. It's fits... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...in your prolapsed colon.

  46. The more likely problem by JohnFen · · Score: 1

    It's more likely the problem isn't a piece of dust, but rather lazy or incompetent "geniuses".

  47. And they doubled down a few times since then! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they doubled down a few times since then!

  48. a few things by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Firstly

    From TFA: "The tradeoff for enhanced hygiene and the slimmer profile is that scissor-switch keys are more difficult to separate from their base than rubber-domed ones, but it's not impossible."

    Side note, a cat can do this very quickly. Like, five or six keys in less than a second. I've witnessed this personally. I even managed to get most of the keys back on.

    Secondly, although he doesn't specifically say, I strongly suspect the root cause wasn't "a piece of dust". He describes the problem as one (1) press of the space bar (where do astronauts go for drinks? never mind) consistently causes two (2) spaces. I'm sorry, that's not mechanical, it's electrical. There's something wrong with the circuitry. Were it a mechanical problem, the symptoms would not be so precisely reproduceable.

    As someone else mentioned, "it's dust" is just something the "geniuses" say to appease the unwashed masses. It should be taken with a ... well it shouldn't be believed at all. These are Mac "geniuses" we're talking here.

    And finally, if you buy an electronic device that's not meant to be repaired, don't be surprised when repairs are costly, or impossible. There's a lot to be said for (a) staying one or two generations behind the bleeding edge, and (b) buying your products with reliability and maintainability in mind. That is, if your objective is to get work done. If your objective is to own the thinnest laptop on earth, your mileage may vary.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:a few things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > (a) staying one or two generations behind the bleeding edge,

      Been doing full stack dev, embedded security auditing, and vision pipelines in OpenVX/CL on a MBPro2013. I'll upgrade when it breaks, but it's been a reliable tank for soon to be 5 years with plenty of compute, and when I need GPUs to test at scale I pop over to AWS. Best laptop I've ever owned, and I've had about a dozen since my first laptop: a Toshiba Portege in 1993, including a bunch of IBM thinkpads before and after lenovo.

      Apple better get on their game, cuz I'd hate to have to get one of their new MBPros.

    2. Re:a few things by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      Of course, its probably a physical electrical problem, but my first thought was that someone who kinda hates him found a deep dark backend setting and just programmed his laptop to do two spaces just to fuck with him.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    3. Re:a few things by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Or that.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  49. Space-Dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are all made of it.

  50. Does it do it when.. by Tighe_L · · Score: 1

    Does it do it when you plug in a USB keyboard? That would be fun to find out.

  51. Think Different, Hold Different and now.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dust Different!

  52. Not a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

    That's not a problem, that's a feature!!

  53. Genius? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    ... as my Genius multi-tasked helping another customer with her iPad. ... "Maybe it's a piece of dust," the Genius had offered. ... Geniuses had said ...

    I know "Genius" is Apple's name for their customer service people, but you and they degrade the meaning of the word by using it this way. I'm pretty sure these people are in no way geniuses - and, this "diagnosis" of a piece of dust on the motherboard certainly confirms that.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  54. Fool by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Who is the Fool? The Fool, or the Fool who follows him?

    1. Re:Fool by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Who is the Fool? The Fool, or the Fool who follows him?

      Or the Fool who Fool's Fool, Fool Fool Fool....

    2. Re:Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ur mom

  55. The word genius has apparently lost all meaning by hackel · · Score: 1

    Seriously, stop calling these people "geniuses." They're not. They're Apple users. About as far from a genius as one can get. They've been through some sort of Apple training programme, no doubt, but that doesn't make them any smarter than anyone else. They still can't handle a mouse with more than one button, an escape key, or any of Apple's other trademarks designed for it's dumbed-down user base.

    Either buy a decent machine or stop your whining.

  56. You fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It could be a pile of shit out of someone's asshole!

  57. Re:Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    uh... geniuses make a lot more money than mcdonald's cashiers bud.

  58. Maybe maybe maybe maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey guys
    Anyone know what the word 'maybe' means?????

  59. Re:Apple no longer designs for resilience: Film at by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your title has a mistake. That should've been "Apple never designed for resilience"

  60. Or maybe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe it's a piece of shit.

  61. Maybe its semen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That can make the space bar stick

  62. I would think, if you go ..... by aix+tom · · Score: 1

    ... to the same shop with the same computer with the same problem three times in a row, then something is seriously wrong.

    Or, as they say: The difference between something that CAN break, and something that CAN NOT POSSIBLY break is, that when something that can not possibly break breaks, it's impossible to get at and fix.

  63. Who ya gonna call? by DulcetTone · · Score: 1

    DUST BUSTERS!

    --
    tone
  64. Apple Fag Drama Queen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?

    Jesus, aren't you the quintessential Apple faggot drama queen. "lays the whole computer out"? Really?

    A single fucking key isn't working as well as it should and the whole computer is laid out? Stop being such an epic fucking faggot!

    Next time you purchase a computer buy a Dell and when the space bar stops working; they send someone to you to replace the entire fucking keyboard.

    What if the space bar is bad/broken/missing? Replace keyboard.
    What if the switch is bad? Replace keyboard.
    What if the user spilled Coke-a-Cola on it and the space bar sticks? Replace keyboard.

    What if there is dust in the spacebar switch? REPLACE THE FUCKING KEYBOARD!

  65. YOU Are A Sign Of The Times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once you had well qualified, well payed personal, pretty much everywhere.
    Now you have "put the Engineer hat" underplayed personal, using the Chewbacca defence. ?
    For a product costing more every "release".

    Welcome to the current economy.

    Your atrocious grammar and inability to spell are signs of the times/apocalypse.

    Wait, don't tell me. It's not that you're an illiterate cuck, it's that 'English isn't your first language'.

    1. Re: YOU Are A Sign Of The Times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Picking on grammar and spelling is a sign of a small mind even if it's someone's first language, and it's best not to go into what your unironic use of "cuck" says about you.

  66. it is your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you where dumb enough to buy a mac.

  67. iSecurity Alert by easyTree · · Score: 1

    "Hold on," I said. "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

    Send white helicopters!! One of them is in open rebellion!!

  68. IBM Model M by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would rather use an IBM model M ... you know ... the clicky-key REAL MAN'S keyboard that is heavy enough to use as a murder weapon, and expensive enough to match.

    If Apple want to improve their keyboards..... jus' saying. They have enough money to buy out Unicomp, the current patent holder.

    1. Re:IBM Model M by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      I don't have a model M, but I do have an ancient IBM PS\2 from the early 90's heavy enough to be used as a lethal weapon. Clickity clack clack - it's a dream. One day adapters will not be enough, but until then, this is one of the best keyboards ever made - it refuses to die - and I'm not giving it up until I have no choice.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  69. Re:Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer.. by aicrules · · Score: 1

    $15 / hour isn't that much more...

  70. Meanwhile... by Chelloveck · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile, his kid / ex / obnoxious coworker is giggling in delight over the fun they've caused with a simple "spacebar produces two spaces" keyboard mapping when the author wasn't looking.

    --
    Chelloveck
    I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
  71. Re:Space bar isn't laying out the whole computer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Training works well for smart people, although they'd probably benefit more from reading a good book or google. All the training in the world won't help dumb cunts, and believe me, the world is packed to the brim with dumb cunts. As the meme says, "When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are Stupid."

  72. Getting mixed messages here by BoogieChile · · Score: 1

    - The laptop was working normally apart from the spacebar

    - ...lays the whole computer out

    Pick one.

    - A piece of dust is capable of rendering a butterfly switch nonfunctional. The key won't click, and it won’t register whatever command it’s supposed to be typing. It’s effectively dead

    - Or, apparently, make a key register twice for each keypress

    Again, pick one.

    1. Re:Getting mixed messages here by BoogieChile · · Score: 1

      My kingdom for an edit button, because I missed the best one;

      - three diagnostic tests that each take about 15 minutes.

      - The process takes an hour.

    2. Re:Getting mixed messages here by Megane · · Score: 1

      - thinking that an unattended diagnostic test can tell you anything useful about a keyboard problem

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  73. Affects people too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a piece of dust stuck in my penis's slit, and now I can't stop cumming! Help!

  74. Maybe it's a piece of shit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's apple...

  75. It's you! by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 1

    You're probably misunderstood: it's you.
    You are a miserable piece of SH*T for bothering Apple with you stupid complaints.
    This is Apple's way of saying: buy a new computer already, you cheap little piece of ... dust...

  76. Dude, you're getting an Apple... by Briareos · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's just a piece of crap instead?

    --

    "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

  77. Missed the obvious answer. by Godwin+O'Hitler · · Score: 1

    Genius: "Maybe it's a piece of dust."
    msmash: "Or maybe it's a piece of shit."

    --
    No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
  78. Re:Your... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ironic thing about the association of anal sex with 'faggotry' is that more straight couples do it than gay ones.

  79. LOL! by MerlTurkin · · Score: 1

    Apple "Genius" you say?

  80. Empiricism by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    Science is also a branch of philosophy, and logical positivism is a more-or-less valid view. It's not a currently popular view, but for most purposes one can indeed reconcile empiricism and statements which cannot be empirically tested: simply consider the unproven statement to be false. There are some downsides to that idea but it certainly cuts down on the number of Russel's Teapots one is obligated to believe in.

    Generally, we would expect some degree of correlation for any two descriptions of the universe. Given the contradictory epistemological frameworks, it's not really possible for these to be meaningful coincidences.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  81. because they can't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    say "dude, go away! We're trying to SELL products to new suckers here, not troubleshoot the garbage we sold you a month ago"

  82. Had the same problem by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

    Except in my case it was the left mouse button, which would click multiple times a lot of the time. It turned out to be a fatigued leaf spring in the microswitch for that button. After disassembling the switch, I bent the spring back to its normal shape and reinserted it. Problem solved. It wasn't an easy fix. The switch is tiny and the spring was even tinier. Took me 20 minutes to get it back in.

  83. Not exactly .... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    The external Apple keyboard I purchased is being used with a different laptop at home (my 15" retina Macbook Pro), just so I can use it like a desktop with its lid closed, attached to a couple of external monitors, plus that keyboard and a regular mouse.

    I don't like the feel of the latest model Apple keyboards as much as earlier models, but yes - it's in Apple's defense to say that after making a lot of use of this new rechargeable one, it's still working properly and would be a perfectly fine product for someone who doesn't take issue with the (subjective) key feel when typing on it.

    And for what it's worth? I'm not sure we know what one of these keyboards will do when the rechargeable battery inside it wears out? It seems lie it may continue to work just fine as a wired USB keyboard, since I can use it with the USB cable attached to it.

    1. Re:Not exactly .... by AntiSol · · Score: 1

      Fair points, I suppose. But I'm willing to bet that a $15 logitech wireless keyboard (and a couple of rechargeable AAA batteries) would have a better feel and would outlast the apple keyboard :)

  84. What does your statement help? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Hold on," I said. "If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?"

    Why does it matter to them? Did they design the laptop? What does your comment help? It puts them on the defensive. Now they won't suggest anything. Because god only knows what you find acceptable answers. But why argue with them? Why start that? Do you think they will email the design team so they will fix it? You think anyone in apple cares what these staff members think? Or that they are even right to begin with?

    You have a problem they are trying to trouble shoot it. Let them.

  85. I am certain that my apple product... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... has been infected with malware that changes what I write to make me look like an idiot if I don't carefully proofread every sentence. In this case, I know I correctly typed the words "with" and "make" in the above sentence, but the computer changed them to read "wil" and "mlke".

    It even attempted to screw up the typing of the second sentence of this reply! Only careful proofreading resulted in an accurate rendering of this post.

    Apple is EVIL!

  86. If you go by sheer numbers, yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gaysexual couples are vastly outnumbered by straight couples. But viewing the stats on a percentage basis per group, the faggots engaging in ass fucking are clearly more.

    Straights try anal, then immediately realize that cock/pussy coupling is more pleasurable and go back to that. Faggots have no choice.

  87. Space Time by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    Causality actually does mean that there cannot be causeless events, and nothing in quantum physics changes that (so far). Your description of black holes is not particularly accurate. A black hole is 'merely' an extremely curved region of spacetime. PBS has a series on YouTube called 'Space Time' that will doubtless be informative, unless you'd rather not have facts interfere with your speculation.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.