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Dell is Building iMac Lookalikes
Shawn Pryde writes "MSNBC reports that Michael Dell told investors the Dell is going to start making PC's modeled after the iMac."
I hafta say for all the criticisms, the super cheap, non-upgradable
internet capable appliance PC is a wonderful holy grail.
Someday it'll happen, but the question is will Dell be able
to cover the cheap part of that grail?
Uhh..., my $2 mil home was featured in architectural digest (similar to Better homes..). And no, those hanging copper pots do have a purpose (charming women being one of them...) I have to say that the tengerine iMac goes very well with the kitchen...
1977 - Apple I - CPU/monitor separate.
Apple II - CPU/Monitor separate.
Apple III (oops!) - CPU/Monitor separate.
Apple IIgs - CPU/Monitor separate.
Apple IIc - CPU/Monitor separate.
1984 - Macintosh - single box design.
So, they stole WHAT from IBM in the early 90s???
Moron!
Harry
the mouse on the iMac is terrible. If Dell copies the iMac, I hope they consider using a real mouse.
Even if you've got 2 CPU's and a bunch of disk drives you're not going to use more than 235 watts or so unless you have a whole lot of really old hardware.
That being said, I love my 300
They would've been even cooler if they had more than 2 PCI slots and non-on-board video.
:)
However, if you can find someone upgrading out of one of the systems, it's fun to take the multimedia console and the ISA board that goes with it and hook it up to your non-Aptiva pc... takes a bit of work, but it can do it.
http://www.cybernetman.com
I like the way you spread everything out, and included extra things on the Dell side let me reorganize it for you, and I think you might find the iMac to be at least as good a deal if not better than your Dell. I also included a generic computer as a comparison, but it is missing some key components such as a non upgrade version of Win98 not sure how much this costs off hand but at least 100+. Assuming this computer would be used by a non-techie, then you could skip that and use Linux :)
.26dp) 1000HS Trinitron® Monitor
Dell Dimension V Series $1200
iMac $1100 at Outpost.com
Generic Computer $600 (no OS and some other parts missing)
Processor
Dell - Intel Celeron® processor, 333MHz with 128KB L2 Cache w/tower case
iMac - G3 PCC processor, 266 mhz with 512KB L2 Cache
generic - Diamond LX Board with 400 MHz Celeron w/tower case
Memory:
Dell - 32MB SDRAM
iMac - 32MB SDRAM
generic - 32MB
Keyboard:
Dell - QuietKey® Keyboard
iMac - Apple USB Keyboard
generic - none
Monitor:
Dell - 17" (16.0" viewable,
iMac - 15" (13.8" viewable)
generic - Generic 15" (really cheap)
Video Card:
Dell - ATI 8MB 3D AGP Graphics
iMac - ATI 6MB Rage Pro
generic - Diamond Viper 330 (Riva 128 3D)
Hard Drive:
Dell - 4.3GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
iMac - 6.0GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
generic - 6.4 GB Maxtor
Floppy Drive:
Dell - 1.44MB Floppy Drive
iMac - None
generic - none
Operating System:
Dell - Microsoft® Windows® 98
iMac - MacOS 8.5
generic - none
Mouse:
Dell - Logitech First Mouse+ Wheel (PS/2v)
iMac - Apple USB Mouse
generic - none
Network Card:
Dell - none
iMac - Built in 10/100 BASE T
generic - none
Modem:
Dell - 3Com® USRobotics V.90* PCI Telephony WinModem for Sound
iMac - 56K supports both KFEX and V90 (Global Village I think)
generic - none
CD-Rom
Dell - 32X Max Variable CD-ROM Drive
iMac - 24X Max Variable CD-Rom Drive
generic - 32X Max Variable CD-ROM Drive
Sound Card:
Dell - Yamaha XG 64V Wavetable Sound
iMac - Apple (built in)
generic - none
Speakers:
Dell - harman/kardon HK-195 Speakers
iMac - Two built-in stereo speakers with SRS surround sound
generic - none
Bundled Software:
Dell - Microsoft® Works Suite 99 with Money 99 Basic;
Dell - McAfee VirusScan for Win 3.1
Dell - 3-Yr Limited Warranty, 1-Yr Next Bus. Day On-Site Service
iMac - AppleWorks
iMac - MS Outlook Express
iMac - Adobe PageMill
iMac - EdView Internet Safety Family Edition
iMac - FAXstf
iMac - Quicken Deluxe 98
iMac - Kai's Photo Soap SE
iMac - World Book
iMac - Nanosaur
iMac - Williams-Sonoma Guide to Good Cooking
Same AC here.
Actually, there aren't any thumb screws either. The newer cases have a button on the front that releases the entire side panel. After that there is a button revealed on top that will release the front panel. The power supply has a lever that lifts it aside so you can get at memory and the drive bays all have spring loaded releases. All in all, it is the best case that I've ever dealt with. -- but I haven't played with a G3 so I don't know if the G3 is any more functional -- or just flashy.
You think the CPU really matters?
try http://www.colorcase.com
They have some nice cases... in fact, there are many companies out there who make them... no more need for the ugly beige box...
>Now if the MacOS had just taken some cues from >Win95 - like preemptive multi-tasking, or >protected memory space.
A combination of NextStep, Mac and *BSD seems like a dream to me.
The best comersial desktop around?
if you get enough lawyers and give them enough
money, they can do anything. they can
keep bill clinton in office and they
can keep rich celebrities out of jail.
Cache is important - unfortunately, different processors need different sized caches, for different tasks, and depending on whether you algorithm is operating on huge data sets, our is a complex formula.
x86 processors have a woefully non-orthogonal architecture, and, for a long time, had 4 registers. So, they spend a large part of their time doing stack manipulations, therefore requiring larger caches for the same performance in a complex algorithm. Registerised function parameter passing is common on other architectures - whereas on x86, you shove everything onto the stack, call the function, and pull everything off again. Muy inefficient.
The 68k series had 16 registers (8 data + 8 address), PPCs have 32 general purpose, and the FPU rgisters, and the G4 has its vector processing unit.
However, if you're operating on a large dataset, you'll need big caches regardless. But hey - PPC has large caches anyway !
There's a similar problem with MHz ratings - they're useless between different architectures.
Even MIPS ratings aren't always helpful. Although nominally RISC, the PPC is mainly called it for it's load/store architecture. Its instruction set is actually more comprehnsive than x86. I have written 680x0, x86, and PPC assembler - PPC assembler is actually the most pleasant, I find!
It's all symmetrical and pretty, for a start.
Opps... I meant use Win98 if you were a non-techie, else using linux for the more technically inclined. (however on the Dell, please can we get rid of the winmodem)
well, the show tunes thing might count :-)
More seriously, though, I've noticed that the Mac crowd that I know tends to lean towards either female, gay, or those guys who may not be gay but don't seem to try to date girls either. Kinda asexual types, I guess.
Am I the only one who thinks that the iMac is not "cute"?
Yes, dumbass.
Interesting how Mac-bashers can't back up their claims with facts/proof. "are all gay"? did you survey every single person who uses Macs? or do you mean being a Mac user makes you gay? or do you mean you felt the need to insult millions of people for no reason? why would you have a reason to say something like this?
In some cases, I like the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, if it leads to invention.
A good example is ADB--Apple Desktop Bus. Apple pioneered the concept (at least to my knowledge--I may be wrong) of one connection on your computer for all those desktop appliances (mice, keyboards, joysticks, modems). They could have been like everyone else and stuck different ports on the back (like they did with the original Mac), but in 1987 they went in a different direction.
Now, ADB was considerably slower than USB and was basically only good for simple input devices. But the concept was sound and was, arguably, the inspiration for USB.
I applaud Apple for going with USB, which seems to be a better solution than trying to "update" ADB to do the same thing. But I'd rather see Apple come up with elegant solutions (eg FireWire) than do things the way everyone else does just because everyone else does it.
The argument (in other posts) that Apple somehow "marginalizes" itself by coming up with a better way is sort of depressing to read in Slashdot. Is Linux "marginalized" because it isn't Windows, even though it's a better solution?
When will the hard-core audience realize that many, many people actually WANT toys? Look at the sales of Sport Utility Vehicles. The car/trucks are practically useless for the vast majority of their purchasers, they guzzle gas, are unsafe, etc, etc. Nevertheless, people want them because they fulfill a psychological need for status, style, and some sort of "macho-ness" for lasck of a better term.
The iMac is a fine machine, maybe not suitable as a server, but that could be said about the vast majority of consumer boxes. The iMac is just fine for Grandma, or even Joe College Student (the non-Computer Sciences variety. They DO exist.) iMacs cater to psychological needs, not just technological needs. Hell, even a steel box with custom-built WinTel innards fulfills psychological needs.
Slashdotters should get over the fact that Apple didn't build the iMac for you. All I hear is sour grapes...
I'm not sure if that guys nickname is reflective of his age, but his name is "Grandpa Spaz"! Get with it todays senior citizens are getting more and more high tech everyday. So maybe Grandma can put together a computer from parts and be Linux hacker too!!!
well, they did have the idea of making boatloads of money while Apple seemed intent on killing itself...until Apple had the amazing insight "look if we don't do something then we're not going to be around in a couple of years". And the direct marketing thing is a pretty big deal, too. It's had more impact on the industry that the "ingenious" ideas that Apple supposedly has "on a regular basis". I haven't seen an ingenious idea out of Apple in a long time, with the exception of the iMac marketing campaign. It appears to me that you are giving Apple more credit than it is due, and Dell less than it deserves.
As for Dell's "generic" hardware, it's not exactly generic. They use high-quality, brand-name components. Just because their components are available in large supply to other computer manufacturers does not make it generic, nor of inferior quality. In fact, the very availability of and competition in the hardware is an excellent thing since it keeps prices down while maintaining a level of quality at least equal to any of Apple's products.
As for Dell's shares sputtering, I'd bet that Apple's shares will do that before Dell's. Dell has shown a lot more business savvy than Apple over the years. Dell (from what I've seen between friends who own Macs, and friends who own Dells) seems to have better service as well.
The G3 is targetting a fairly discerning market who are willing to pay out of their nose for hardware ( last I checked these things cost over $2000- and that's for an IDE system. THe SCSI is about $3000- )
;-) Well, another reason is that my brother has already been through two unexpandable Performa-model Macs and I figure he's paid his dues by now.
It just so happens that I bought one last week. A gift to my brother. Interestingly, one of the reasons I chose the minitower over the iMac was that he likes games and would therefore prefer a Rage128 over a Rage Pro.
Anyway, what was I going to say? Oh yes... $3000 for SCSI? Bzzt. I agree that this Mac stuff is expensive (my wallet is still aching) but the SCSI card only ended up costing me an extra $50.
Geez, the hardware sure is sweet. When I opened the case, I almost drooled on it. A lot nicer than my Amiga 3000; I would be tempted to get one myself if only there was a decent OS for Macs. Oh well.
HOORAY! Let's slit our own necks by shouting a big "hurrah!" for shitty price/performance boxes for the average joe!
Then one day we wake up and realize that there are plenty of cheap solutions for Joe, but the only way to buy a REAL computer is to pay an INTELLIGENCE tax because there is no longer any reason for hardware manufacturers to build real computers for the mass market!
Kiss your cheap Linux boxes goodbye! Real hardware is for SERVERS, not for ordinary people! All ordinary people need is a hermetically sealed box with one button!
Wintel? The PS/1 ran Windows?
good god.. I can build a celeron or amd with no monitor and NTSC or S-Video output for 500 or less.... And its still upgradable.... decent speed
Its a holy grail... Come on Rob... thats worthless
And from a company that has its head so far up MircoSlut's ass it cant see straight...
Well, I'm a Mac User. I'm not gay.
...But I do like show tunes. Does that count?
Could we perhaps remark that cthonious, in making this comment, is a "flamer" (ie, one who produces flames?)
Besides, Tom Cruise is an avid Mac user. And we all know he's not gay...
---
This entire article, and the opinions therein, are for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered serious. Please don't kill me.
Has MS every invented anything for apple to copy?
Every computer system contains ideas developed
elsewhere, but I cant think of any ideas that are
from MS.
Rod, I applaud you for supporting Apple in all that it does. I for one love Apple computers and think that they are wonderful to work and play on. Everyone that likes Apple computers should be proud of the fact. And everyone still in the Closet as it were about there Apple love affection, come out. Be pround of who you are and the fact that you like Apple I am. :)
The Net PC looks like a DEC Multia or a Corel Netwinder, but much bigger. The Managed PC looks like a Mac Performa (it's a lot bigger than a Mac LC). It's probably a lot faster though.
Acer did manage to distinguish the product by adding a selectable bezel, so people can buy new bezels to convert their Net PCs into Managed PCs or vice versa, to prevent them from having to go to the trouble of snapping in/out a removable faceplate. Sounds like a good way to make money, I guess.
:)
-ad
I'm sure the groups trying to move us towards a 1984-ish society must love people like you.
A diskless computer in every home. With all data stored on a far away server with low quality encryption. And a clipper chip embedded in every one! Is that the FBI starting to drool?
Oh, and mandatory content filters. Artifical intelligence programs will scan everything you read and write, and disallow it if it includes anything critical of the interests which control it.
You'll be going along typing and it'll be like: "You know, this whole diskless system stinks^h^h^h^h^h^h. Hey, what happened there?"
The C64's CIA chips weren't all socketed. I had two C64s, bought about two years apart in the early 80s. One had a socketed CIA chip, and the other had a soldered CIA chip. My father replaced the socketed one a few times (damn joysticks :)
:)
Then he eventually replaced the soldered one with an old CIA chip from one of our Amigas, sitting on a small daughterboard (since the functionality the C64 needed still worked).
The biggest design improvement for the C64, IMHO, would have been better input protection for the CIA chip. The second would have been a better keyboard
The guy told you exactly the keywords: STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY. Are you out of your mind thinking that a student can buy a floppy AND put it into University's computer??? It is not question of money, floppies are cheap, but question of schools policies. Now, give me a link to any school where it's ok for students to mess with hardware of the computers they use.
My school doesn't even allow me to use ZIP drive! All computers have CD-ROMs but we are not allowed to use it (no drivers installed to prevent that) because "students will abuse that". Although in my case I am talking NT boxes.
And yes, you smartass "Email file to myself", my school doesn't allow to connect my laptop to network, I don't have phone line, hence the Inet is in the labs ONLY. How the heck you expect me to get files from the net??? I doubt I am that unique case. Schools that suck (like mine) are legion.
thunderlawyers, Ho!
by the power of the West Group, i have
the powerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Yes, but, they are admitting that they are taking design cues from the iMac. Sounds like Microsoft taking cues from the MacOS for Win95.
Credit where credit is due: Win95 is inspired more by Steve Job's other baby, the NeXTSTEP UI, than by the MacOS. Alan Cooper as much as admits it in _About Face_, which is the book on how to write a good UI for a Windows program.
What about what Apple stole from PCs?
The PCI bus, USB, SDRAM, IDE hard drives, I could go on.
Stealing is a two way street.
These have been around, even in PC form, for quite a while actually.
He quoted retail prices.
For Dell you can expect another 20-30% discount.
Where shall I start...
Any idiot knows these are licensed technologies. You obviously took me too literally. The point is these are technologies that were originally developed by Wintel companies for Wintel companies. Example, Intel developed PCI. Intel, Microsoft, Compaq and company developed USB and so on. The fact that Apple *licensed* (there is that better?) them shows that they've taken quite a few cues from Wintel.
And really what is so innovative about the iMac. It's a bunch of borrowed (oops, sorry licensed) PC technology, limited expansion all wrapped up in ugly blue plastic. Yawn...
Uh...you can hook an Apple monitor to a PC. Have been able to for years.
Dialed in at a blazing 1200 bps way back in '87 to the school's BSD system. Of course, I wrote my own term program because all the other's sucked. :) I guess it's a good thing that 2400 bps modems were too expensive back then since the C64's software emulated UART couldn't do 2400 bps reliably. Great machine too. The only real problem was static. You'd shock the joystick port reaching for the power switch and *poof* your 6522 was fried. Fortunately, I had a stack of VIC20's to pull another one from. Good thing they were socketed!
...and, as anyone who has used a keyboard PC knows, the keyboard is disassociated from sensitive components for a reason.
Any effort to put PC components back into a keyboard form factor, without regard to the rigors of keyboard life, results in a sub-optimal design that fails early and often.
Correctly engineered project that attempt to do this look like.... well... laptops.
The standard CRT monitor is an equally unfriendly environment for form factor reduction.
Actually, the case for the Dell workstations (410 and 610) are great. You can open them up and get to anything without a screwdriver. Grated, they aren't blue and clear, but they are just as usefull as the G3
i was wondering what that huge risc pc in the corner of the science lab was.
our school science lab still has riscPC's ( which suck ) and one with that double decker thing u described
What people don't realize is that the iMac wasn't created to be a computer, in the standard sense of the word. It wasn't made to be upgradeable. It is simply an appliance, like a refridgerator. You don't replace the refrigeration unit when the thing gets busted, you replace the whole fridge. Little old ladies don't want to have to worry about what part is busted. They just want it to work, so they can email their children. That is where everyone misses the point of the iMac. It wasn't meant for your average slashdotter. We should NEVER buy ANY mac, even with OS X. We should buy a good PC with Debian GNU/LINUX. The iMac simply creates a way for little old ladies to even further clog the Internet.
Eliminating the disk and replacing it with a cheap cable modem (expected to drop into the $40-60 range in the next two years) looks great to Joe.User: He doesn't have to worry about installing software, running out of disk space, upgrading his OS or applications, or any of the rest of it. He just pays his ISP a combined sum each month for network connectivity and space on the server, AND it makes PC's about $150 less expensive, which is very very important. Vendors have discovered that the more you drop PC prices, the wider your target audience, and the lower you can afford to let your margins slip; they still make a profit off higher sales. This is the phenomenon that drove first the sub-$1000 PC market and now the sub-$500 PC market to subsume more than *half* of the entire PC market. When a PC drops below $500, the hard drive starts making up almost a third of the total PC cost.
I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Any way I look at it, if current trends in the industry continue the home computer will turn into something akin to the television and potentially cause a LOT of trouble for the home computer hobbyist. At the very least, we are going to see more "soft devices" a la WinModems and these new DVD controllers. Another possibility is that the hard drive industry will focus exclusively on the server market, making hard drive hardare much more difficult for the home computer hobbyist to obtain (ie, if only the ISP's are a significant customer audience for hard drives, and they're trying to provide space for tens or hundreds of thousands of users, then hard drive makers would probably chase the optimal price:capacity points in the $10,000+ per unit range, pricing hard drives out of hobbyists' buying power). And in my darkest paranoid fears, I wonder if one won't have to pay to license your servers much as we have to pay for licensing radio transmitters today.
It makes great business and political sense. And I really REALLY hate it.
-- Guges --
Gerr...
Yes, apple contracts out to some of the worlds best external form design shops.
Too bad Apple, the company, is run by idiots.
For those of you wondering how the iMac will affect the industry... Please recall how many apple IIc computer are still in wide spread use.
The iMac is basically a re-execution of the AppleIIc concept on yet another dieing Apple platform. And, no, ethernet and a modem will not pull Apple's ass out of the fire that is Wintel.
BTW, I OWNED a IIc because it was beautiful, just like half the iMac owners out there. I still have yet to find a keyboard equal to the IIc. Amazing considering the time span.
Apple is only one company with an occasional good idea and consistent good design execution (though, some of their designs grate agains my own asthetic tendencies). It is inevitable that the all the Wintel companies with latest implementation of the "least marketable difference" at a 30% lower price take over where Apple can not go due to it's own lack of vision and stupid licensing policies.
I think the funniest "least marketable differences" I've seen was one of the Japanese computer rags that featured one of their DYI guys who put together Wintel components running BeOS using colorful palstic tubs for a case, an LCD screen, glue and random hardware components. The resemblance to an iMac was remarkable and the case cost less than the standard Wintel variety.
yep.
I think I'd be able to do more with an iMac than I can with my Power Tower Pro 225. That bugger cost me about $3000 when I got it (which was admittedly much too long ago); Apple has really brought down the cost of their machines in the past year or so, without much (if any) sacrifice in performance. Come on, give them the props that they deserve for once.
-ad
the set of people who think iMacs are stupid are still saying the same thing. Their voices got flooded by the new voices saying "good idea."--those who won't ever upgrade or open a computer without assistance.
When you compare G3 to Celery, you compare a small
fragment of the systems ranges. I hear that a G3 400MHz has the same 3D rendering speed of a Celeron 300A. I can't verify this myself, but Apple is using Bytemark versus an industry accepted test suite. Granted, not many people do raytrace rendering or such, but keep in mind what Apple is trying to keep: their 2D graphics (usually integer).
Jeff DeMaagd - I forgot my password
Yes. A good monitor will last years and YEARS, and in the sub-$500 PC market they account for a large fraction of total system cost. Which is *exactly* why it is in the computer vendors' best interests to have them integrated with the rest of the computer, forcing you to shell out even more money when you want to upgrade your system.
What is best for the customer is not as meaningful to the vendor as what the customer wants, and if the customer can be convinced that they want something that is not good (and we have already seen that they can), then what is best for the customer matters not at all.
-- Guges --
Chuckle
Yup, cho chweet...
because the herds are mooing. when they get wind of this, its going to shoot up.
I can't find anything that says they're going to follow iMac for design influence; this hoopla is all about Dell entering the sub-$1000 market.
What you describe sounds like the old Amiga CDTV unit, but with rack mount flanges on the side.
and i always wanna kick one of those.
It's a matter of perspective.
;)
I disagree. 64MB may be "enough" for entry-level PCs now, but in a year, people will need 128Mb. OSes will get more bloated, the web browsers will get more bloated, internet applications (coughJAVA) will get more bloated, etc. I don't think folks should be buying systems nowadays with less than 128Mb, if they plan on having the machine for anything over a year. And when you purchase an economy system, you should plan on 3 years until replacement, when it's pretty damn near obsolete.
SCSI *shouldn't* be thought of as for professionals who know how to configure things. It's easier to figure out than IDE. "master, slave, okay, now what if I only have one? And two channels?!" vs SCSI: "Each device needs a different number. Connect a new device to the end of the chain. Boot." Intel is the reason SCSI has never caught on.. by putting IDE on the chipset, they've made it so incredibly cheap and prolific that it's hard NOT to use it.
Firewire (to use Apple's term) is the next step, and it adds connectivity to devices that will be booming in the next decade: digital video recorders. Sure, they range from 800-4000 right now, but they're about to enter the range where people will rather have digital ones than their old compact VHS palmcorders. ESPECIALLY when HDTV and DVD make everyone see the benefit of DigitalEverything(tm).
- A.P.
--
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I dunno if there was already a post to this, but has anyone acshully SEEN a pic of this iWannabe? I dont have time to check all 520,000 posts for a URL
ZC
most of the fun is hackin around and doin fun things to the system...at least it is for me. I know when i get a system installed and running smoothly, its not as much fun anymore. Windoze sux and is boring to me because (besides the numerous bugs and security issues) you cant DO anything with it. I guess hackin around in the comp is just the little boy in me havin fun. Linux is fun for that reason...you can do (virtually) anything to it :)
I was 4 years old in 84...
I'm just talking about my personally seeing..
I don't know any strait guys that use them..
I know alot of gays and females that use pc's..
But the very few that use a mac-n-trash that I have met were either gay or female..
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Hmm. That's why stores sell spray paint! =P
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I can hear the jokes now..
"We don't need women any more!!!"
But how much do these cost? Instead of the sink, can I get a coffe maker?
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
It can be done.. It would proable be the size of an old lugable.. But it could be done.. It would be cool to come out w/ this. Project idea!
All you would need is a nice sized case w/ keyboard built, mb with a riser board, small power supply, and the extras..
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
http://www.ursaminr.demon.co.uk/rocket.htm
Why get a g/f if you can get one of these!
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
While studying for the MCSE, some OEM's of NT 4.0 can do upto 256 cpu SMP. 98 need SMP, I sent that idea when 95 was still in beta, but they were unprofessional and never replied me. I like 98 over NT, I don't like NT that much, I have to use it for work, it crashes all the time, even though I have had an NT box running 6 months strait, but my 98 box is pretty stable.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Actually I don't know of any strait guy that use Mac's. I have alot gay freinds and they are the only ones to use macs.. And females...
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I think Clear one piece computer has been an idea for awhile.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Holy shit!!! Now if they had room for like one drive and added a good sound card it would rawk! Can we say highly portable machines.. Would be great for net parties!
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I have seen a PC within the Keyboard,
its from an L.A. based company. Their ads appear
regulary at the end of Byte and PCWorld magazine.
Looks like Dell was not the first
G3 400MHz has the same 3D rendering speed of a Celeron 300A- not
That's just not true. The G3 floating point unit is great. PPCs were designed for floating point from the ground up.
An unoptimized software-only G3 driver might well be slower than a Celery with HW acceleration, but I assure you that in absolute terms, the G3 wipes the floor with the x86.
If you code the same routine in x86 asm and PPC asm, the PPC one will win.
The "real-world" benchmarks system is always a problem, since they often compare a heavily-asm-optimized intel application to the rather poor, unoptimized, "let's-just-recompile-the C-sources" port the application's company did to the mac, just so they could say they had a mac version.
Never trust benchmarks - PPC or x86.
Don't forget, too, that however good the PPC hardware is, it's crippled by running the piss poor MacOS - I really would love to see a cheap, generic, little-endian PPC motherboard with PCI that we can port linux to, and all live happily ever after.
it seems strange to me that when dell simply imitates apple's iMac styling without really changing anything fundamentally in the system architecture (still a PC with the same old ports, same IRQ setup and registry complications that come with the same old wintel OS) -> people get all excited. but this is merely a superficial applications of style ON TOP of substance -> which to my thinking is the very worst sort of "style with no substance" type of change that geeks despise.
however, when the iMac came out, every componenent of the design was made BOTH stylish AND functional. the system design inside and out was reconsidered based on the idea of SIMPLIFICATION: we have too many ports: modem, printer, keyboard, mouse -> consolidate into ONE port: USB; we have too many boxes with wires hooking them up: CPU, monitor, speakers -> consolidate them into ONE. this one box needs to be moved occasionally -> put in a handle. the system software (OS8.1 / 8.5) was similarly reconfigured to work for the goal of functional simplicity: the internet TCP/IP setup process has been streamlined, and control panels and system components consolidated to make things easier. there's a rescue "Boot CD" that restores everything back to good order in the system if anything goes wrong, you just pop in the CD, boot, and things are made right.
when you actually USE an iMac (instead of criticising without having used it), you find out that it is not only stylish, but very FUNCTIONAL. that means the iMac doesn't simply "dress up" a PC box in a nice case, but has been fundamentally designed well from the ground up. the iMac delivers not only a superficial PC that is styled-over with a fancy case like what DELL is attempting, but the stylish case has come about from a fundamental design premise. this is something that i doubt dell will "get" or deliver.
while some geeks may disparage simplicity in order to bolster their feelings of superiority and mastery over complex and arcane systems. i would contend that SIMPLICITY IS DIFFICULT -> it is much harder to make a system simple than it is to merely master a complex system.
johnrpenner@earthlink.net
erm.. don't forget the 56k (v.90) internal modem. infra red port ( rev a) 10/100 base t ethernet and of course speakers ( not birll but at least game friendly with no wires ! )
maybe nit picking here but does all that also include the OS ( apart from linux ) keyboard and mouse ?
The iMac (even the G3) looks stylish - what with its clear case, curved lines, etc. It is something you would see in a "Better Homes and Gardens" spread - you know, the kind of article where the kitchen looks so perfect you _know_ the owner hasn't got a clue about cooking - but boy, don't those hanging copper pots look pretty?
I like to code on my machines - I like to take them apart - I am sure most people here are of the same mind. Still, I see the beauty and simplicity behind an NC box. I also see the danger.
If everything went to the NC style, the servers would probably be priced way out of range for geeks like me to work with - I mean, if I have to have NCs all through my house, I am definitely going to want a server for them in my closet, just so I can develop that next "new" app that everyone will want on the 'net. However, the server (or parts to build one) will probably be priced way out of most peoples budgets, simply because business would decide that no one would need a server in their house (similar to how M$ decides that no one needs to code at home - and price VS through the roof - at least there are alternatives here, though).
I know this is all speculation, and probably won't come to fruitation. I do know I like the look of the NC boxes I have seen up close, and would love to have a bunch of these networked throughout my house and tied into a central server. I just don't want to lose this capability.
Despite the fact that your post screamed TROLL, I'm going to reply.
2^5
- A.P.
--
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
That's a strange viewpoint to see on Slashdot, which is very biased towards Linux, an operating system that can make old 486es hold lasting value and do useful tasks. :) )
As far as Macs, they are every bit as capable of holding value. I have a Mac Plus with 1M of RAM doing duty as a kitchen recipe book. It boots off a floppy and has no HD and is still useful (though it does consume more wattage than paper, but less than the light bulb that shines on it
I have a IIcx that is destined to be the dedicated MIDI sequencer for my studio- got 20M of ram for it for free through good luck when I made it dualboot NetBSD and MacOS, but I can't do anything with NetBSD on this little machine- time to devote it to Mac-based MIDI sequencing in a big way. It will _always_ be fast enough for that.
I have a Classic (like a Plus only with a HD) which is well suited to being a little bedside machine for jotting down notes on. A Mac Classic can boot in fourteen _seconds_. Wake up, boot, type, shut down, go back to sleep...
I have a 9500 which I just got a Voodoo2 card for (whee!) It's my dualboot Linux/Mac box. I'm not bothering taking the CPU beyond the 200Mhz 604e, G3 wants a bus that can handle it (like the newer powermacs)... but the 9500 has _twelve_ DIMM slots and a bunch of drive bays. The 9500 is destined for lasting value as a digital audio workstation and as a rendering box when I eventually get something newer and quicker...
iMacs will hold their value marvellously- and maintain their _usefulness_ even better. Aren't people talking about using them as X terminals? Talk about obscene overkill as an X terminal! Yet, when they are costing about $200 each years from now, they'll still be just as overpowered for the task as ever.
How're you going to fit a PII/PIII/Celeron, desktop DVD drive, all that ram, maybe a 3D card etc etc, SCSI, Firewire, into even a 17" case...
...without it all MELTING?
I'm serious. This is a major, major issue for this type of design, and is probably the reason the iMac uses basically a Powerbook CD-Rom (lower wattage! less heat generation).
If the PC guys _do_ manage to get the PC equivalent, even at comparable power, into a monitor casing, if it doesn't catch fire in the lab then expect all the parts to have lifetimes about 1/4 what you'd expect. If they try to go for higher power, forget it- the things won't even survive testing. Do you know the _differential_ between even fast G3 chips and Pentia, as far as heat dissipation is concerned?
And add on $150-$200 to get that all shipped to you from the various companies you found on pricewatch.com.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
What I wanna know is, how come when Apple announced the iMac everyone said "That's stupid", but now that a big PC company literally clones the iMac everyone says "That's a good idea after all."
Posted by ChristianC:
See 'Sex and the single geek' at MacOPINION. Pretty funny.
> (I was just running one at 1024X768 with a refresh rate of 95Hz... nice and crisp)
If I may ask, how'd you manage that? My sister has an iMac (purple), and I can't get it to go over 75Hz at 1024x768.
A correction:
The Rev. B and Rev. C iMacs have 6 MB of video RAM, and an ATI RAGE Pro video chip. Okay, so you're not going to get a 70FPS Quake II crusher demo result off of it, but the iMac isn't aimed at the 3D-shooter snobs anyway. Nanosaur looks pretty good on it, though.
(By the way, I like the way the first poster quoted *all* the part numbers for every piece of hardware and software to make the list more visually impressive.)
>the mouse on the iMac is terrible.
Note that since it's small, you can put something over it. Macsense makes a Bondi blue clip-on thing that transforms it into a reasonably ergonomic mouse. Also, now that USB is becoming mainstream on PCs, other USB mice are available.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
The processor maxes out at 233MHz Pentium MMX. With 128MB-EDO RAM and 6.4GB EIDE they charge $1172. There is no Windows tax, you buy that extra if you want it. In addition to the usual ports it has IR & USB, a built-in Realtek 10BT controller and an ISA slot.
It weighs 6.6lbs (3kg) but needs a 1lb. power brick. Most of the components seem to be standard, but old, desktop stuff rather than laptop. If they want to make PII, PIII models they'll probably have to use more laptop-style parts.
It is possible that I am mistaken... I will try it again when I get the chance
also it was a rev A imac not one of the new ones and was running at thousands of colors (before the increased Vram)
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Quite the contrary...
he infact sayst that the "Do" build too much margin into their products.
seems like more than a guess to me.
My point is that the computers apple sells may actuay be better than Pentiums in Price/performace... it all depends on how much better the G3 is compared to the pentium... according to the poster we cannon know this
so how can he know that apple has worse price performance.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Correction... the iMac after rev A has 6MB Vram
Corect me if Im wrong... otherwise you are absolutely corect... My parents were just shoping for this dell...
if the processors were equal then the machines would be the same... unfortuantely the G3 is superior to the celeron
thems the breaks Dell.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
jeeze man...
Apple just upgraded the iMac to 333MHz... and the cost is still around $1,100. thats a damn good price performance ratio expecialy considering it comes with one of the finest monitors I have seen (I was just running one at 1024X768 with a refresh rate of 95Hz... nice and crisp)
Currently dell sells a celeron at that price also 333MHz... most other stats are the same but the Celeron isnt as fast as the G3.
I mean sure, you can get a better price performance ratio... but not that much better... Its a worthy machine at its price point...
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
you have just made 2 statements
the first is that we are not qualified to make a judgement on the relative power of the 2 chips running these systems and the second is that apple has lower price/performance than intel
how can you possibly say that.
if you cant make a judgement on the power of the system then how can you say that apple charges too much for them...
what if the G3 realy is twice as powerfull... what if its 10 times as powerfull...
still not worth the money?
you have violated your own rules here... you think that the G3 isnt worth the extra money... perhaps other people think that it is...
I have used celeron and G3 systems and I would take the G3 any day of the week... I wouldnt pay 5 times as much for it, but I would pay more.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
WOW you can get at anything withough a screwdriver... thats great!
how long does it take?
The performa 646 only required the removal of 2 screws to get ant any part of the inside...
it also took about a half hour... I need a little more info (Ive never seen these cases before...)
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
The low end blue & white minitower G3 is about $1500, not $2000. Add $190 for an Initio Miles UW SCSI card and you're all set. At least that is what I did. Now I'm just waiting for LinuxPPC R5 and hoping they'll have accelerated X drivers for the RAGE 128 card. It should smoke my PII/233 Linux box.
Have you downloaded and installed the updates (Firmware update 1.0 and iMac Update 1.1)? There is also a modem firmware update if I recall correctly. The noisy CDROM may be do to unbalanced discs spinning at high speed (I've run across a couple of those.) There is also an update for that that basically slows the CDROM down, thus getting rid of the vibration. All of these should be on Apple's website.
Sure, right. You guys always amaze me...
Tell the old woman looking for a PC to do simple stuff, that its cheaper to build a PC than to purchase a prebuilt one. I wonder why Dell, Apple, IBM, Gateway, etc haven't all gone out of business. Clue: not every one has the time/patience/technical ability to build a PC. The extra price is worth it, you get a working out of box machine with a warranty and the knowledge that everything works properly on it. No offence to people who like to build PCs...I love it too. But for most people, the prospect of making a PC from scratch would be a nightmare.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
The Lisa that became a Mac was the MacXL.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
True, but a case comes with a powersupply. A cheap power supply can breakdown easy, ruin a motherboard, etc. Its not a risk anyone building a computer needs to take. A good case from a respectable case manufacturer will cost you around $70-$100. Its a good buy. I'd rather spend the extra $50 or so on a better case than to spend it on a processor thats 33-66MHz more.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
And you Anti-MacManiacs are so blinded by hatred you can't see the real issue. I do not recall anyone in this thread saying that the iMac was the first PC to use a all in one design. In your effort to dis the Mac you display your ignorance for all to see.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
32MB RAM- $31
What kind of RAM is this? 72pin SIMMs? This is awfully cheap.
15" - $100
Would this monitor be equal to the quality of the iMac monitor? Brand?
Case- $28
Ha ha! If you buy a case for this price you're asking for trouble....
Have you factored in the cost of shipping these individual cost of each part...and the time spent assembling them.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
Where should i start...
PCI, USB are standards that are licenced. Not stolen. All computers use these standards. No one steals them...
SDRAM and IDE drives are standard not only on PCs but also Suns, SGIs, RS6000s etc (well maybe not IDE). Using them in thier systems in no way constitutes "stealing".
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
They stopped production on 266 iMacs. They are being replaced with 333 iMacs. We have them here at CompUSAnet
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
If Windows does preemptive multi-tasking, or protected memory , then they do it very badly. OS 8.6 has real preemptive multi-tasking and a new protected memory manager, based on the original Copeland kernel. BTW: Has SMP capabilities up to 64 processors. Not a joke.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
Even though I know you are being purely sarcastic , the Imac does not offer 'terrible' price/performance. In fact Apple is improving it by bumping the speed up to 333MHz. At the same $1199 price.
BTW: its iMac, not Imac. No biggie....
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
That's the funniest posting I've seen for a while...
What Dell is going to put out is going to suck, because when the PC industry does it cheap, it's cheap (one word, WinModem).
I like Apple hardware more, and even though it shouldn't count technically, Apple has better designs in general. There's a book out there called Apple Design or smething like that I was flipping through the other day. I wish they had released some of that stuff.
-- The unsig...
Looks like someone's been abusing the Slashdot moderation system.
--
Timur Tabi
Remove "nospam_" from email address
It could be expanded in a similar manner:
It could also be expanded by adding extra sidecars on one end of it. Before it's death due to a flooded basement, it had 768K of RAM, a 360K 5.25" floppy, a 720K 3.5" floppy, a 80M SCSI HD and was painted black. It looked like a mutant NeXT cube. =)
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
A lot of people will say Contextual Menus, which we all know was around before MS.
I do know that Apple caught MS with its hands in the QuickTime source code cookie jar. It was behind the scenes of the $150 mill investment.
Maybe you could say that they stole a crappy protected memory system from 95 with gaurd pages instead of doing it the real way.
If anyone else has some more obvious ones post em!
Pat
-- Are you an EFF member yet?
So often people refer to how Apple has acted in the past. The whole "Not Invented Here" syndrome which almost doomed them. That way of thinking has been cleaned out and no longer lives at Apple.
To ignore the ideas that Apple has introduced to computing would be silly. To say that any good idea in computing has come from Apple is equally silly.
See how they recently embraced OpenGL. They are trying to make the fastest Java runtime for personal computing. They are a new company and I suggest you all take a new look at what Apple has done recently.
Anyway...
Pat
-- Are you an EFF member yet?
Why don't you pick up an x-terminal to use as an x-terminal?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--------------------------------
Not all who wander, are lost.
- Opening the case...
- Accessing the expansion cards...
- Removing and installing drives...
They're very well put together machines, you can lock them, and if someone opens the case when you're not there, you are alerted when the machine boots up. "Alert! Cover previously removed!".- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--------------------------------
Not all who wander, are lost.
I wouldn't call the iMac a "toy". It has a pretty powerful processor (G3/233), and while it's not a server-grade machine, it makes a useful desktop.
Currently the iMac's greatest limitation is its lack of PCI slots and SCSI. Once there are ample USB peripherals (soon enough; I've already seen USB scanners, MIDI interfaces and serial adaptors), this will become less important. Once iMacs have FireWire (the new ones reportedly will), the lack of SCSI won't matter.
There seems to be a vestigial contempt for the idea of computers that are designed to look good. I wonder whether, when attractively-styled cars started becoming widespread, they drew the same jeers and catcalls from Model T aficionados, denouncing them as pretty, impractical toys. (Not without reason; unlike the "cute" newer cars, the utilitarian Model T could be configured as a sedan, a light truck or a number of other roles.) Nowadays almost everybody drives relatively un-ugly, minimally configurable end-user cars.
I'd rather like to see computers become more attractively styled (and I don't mean tacky futurist fantasies of fluorescent colours). I also wouldn't mind if a lot of the functions of PCI slots and direct motherboard access were replaced by the likes of USB, FireWire and perhaps PCMCIA; most computers take up too much space as it is.
When I bought my Mac (a G3 desktop from before the blue-and-white models), I was impressed by the case design. I opened it up to install more RAM, and found that the assembly with the disk drives and power supply pivots up, and even comes with a retractable foot on the side. I wish my Linux box (a homemade K6-200 jobbie) had a case as easy to access as that.
Log
actually they already bumped up the imac to 333. They will be available the 19 of this month. They are already "in channel" and for the same 1199 USD price
not bad
.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
Guess im not the only one who sees that most Mac users are gay or female :P
I have to return some videotapes...
cuz I had custom UART code :-) My BBS software also let the C= caller hear real-time music, see interrupt driven character and sprite animation, as well as play online games with their joystick, all at 300 baud(provided they used my term software).
My BBS and term software also took advantage of the fact that 300 baud modems could be pushed to 450-500 baud without any problems. The users without the money to upgrade to a 1200 or 2400 really appreciated the free 50-67% speed boost.
If you lived in Corpus Christi, Tx from 83-87 or Houston from 88-91 you might have called it - The Dragon's Lair(yep, tis I, The Dm). I eventually dropped out of the BBS scene due to lack of interest. I had discovered the internet in the late 80's at U of H, and was busy in newsgroups and getting Amiga Demos from AMINET :-)
I had some other fun software for the C= 128: 128 Invaders, an 80 column Space Invaders clone(one of the few games that used the 80 column screen); a program to change the 80x25 screen to 80x50 (rewrote part of the print support for that and turned on interlaced video mode); and a 25% speed-booster for the 128's 40 column screen(a raster interrupt that turned the 2MHz switch on whenever the scanline was in the top/bottom screen borders, or back to 1MHz when in the visible portion)
It's actually what I wished the iMac was more like(using LCD instead of a tube).
Commodore Amiga 500 :-)
Don't they smell after a while?
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Not really. The moment that the Mac clones hit the shelves (and I lost my 50% discount on Apple equipement - a good reason to stick with them) I built a clone out of parts. It was cheaper. Now that we don't have clones, we're back with Apple.
I buy Macs because I:
That kind of nonsense does work in the PC market, by the way. The iMac is sold mostly to generic consumers. How many generic consumers buy Compaq monitors with Compaqs, Dell monitors with Dells, Apple monitors with Apples, etc? 99.44% of them, that's how many. It has nothing to do with the Mac, and everything to do with the market that buys consumer-oriented computers.
Me, I like Sony's trinitron tubes. I use an Apple monitor with an OEMed Sony tube on my Mac. (Got it under that 50% discount) But then, I'm not a generic consumer.
OTOH, I'd pay $100-200 for an ornate brass and cherrywood case for my computer, just to make it look nice. I also buy my clothes not only for functionality, but also to look nice. If it costs a little extra for a better look that's okay. I'm deliberately buying a better look. That's got value to some people dontcha know.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
In the beginning there was IBM.
Well who did you expect? Transmeta? Maybe?
Anyhow, back in the mid seventies, their 801 project, which was not really a microprocessor for a while longer, really helped get RISC started. Seymour Cray was involved in an earlier proto-RISC project, but then he was a blue ribbon genius.
Well, IBM did use some of their RISC developments, but it wasn't until the early nineties that they created the POWER1 chip (which is not really all that RISCy, but that's neither here nor there - it did evolve from the 801 project, is all)
In '92, Apple, IBM and Motorola (collectively known as AIM, or the Smith Street Gang ;) got together and began developing the PowerPC design, which was based off of POWER and was intended to replace the Motorola 68000 series (which it basically did) and the Intel x86 series, which is still crawling along, much to everyone's surprise.
The first PowerPC chip was the 601, and it can be considered a Generation 1 chip in this family (G1).
The 603 chip, intended primarily for laptops, but also used in low-end systems due to it being quite cheap, was more or less a G2 chip. The version that Apple used more frequently was the 603e, which had a larger cache - critical for laptops, where a L2 cache would prove detrimental.
The big name G2 chip was the 604. Rather than being a heavily POWER influenced design it was the first 'real' PowerPC chip. Its big brother is the rarely seen 620, which expanded the design to 64 bits, but was only really used for the IBM RS/6000 machines, and maybe some others. It was kind of slow, and arrived late, and is quite large and hot, IIRC.
There was also a rumored 615 chip which would have an x86 core as well as a 604. This never materialized however, but it's a neat, if useless (probably too expensive and unpredictable) idea.
The G3 that Apple touts is really the 750 chip. I suspect that they call it the G3, because it sounds better when compared to the PII. ;)
Well, to be quite frank, although the 750 is damned fast, and exceptionally cheap (it destroyed the market for used macs) it is actually pretty weak in the FPU department as compared to the 604, and is more of a successor to the 603. It's a cheap laptop chip that's popular in desktops due to low cost and reasonable performance.
Copper wiring is also now being used in the 750's (my G3 Blue and White has a copper chip) which not only boosts clock speeds by approx 33%, but also is an excellent folk debugging remedy. ;)
A little later this year, hopefully by July (the NY Macworld show) we'll see the first Macs with the G4 processor which will have several innovations.
First, it'll have additional instructions (collectively known as Altivec) which are somewhat like the MMX extensions. They're supposed to speed up a number of 128 bit 'multimedia' operations by operating in parallel with the int and fpu. While they have been reported to speed a lot of stuff up a great deal, I think that Motorola's management heard about the MMX announcement some years back and told their designers to one-up them. It would explain why they're so late.
Also, although we're unlikely to see this on anything that actual people can afford, AIM is also going to be making multiprocessor G4 chips. That is, multiple processors on the same piece of silicon. That should be hella fast, but i doubt they'll be used in much outside of servers and the worlds' most wicked pissah photoshop box (1 GB RAM, natch)
For more information on Grank Funk... er, PowerPCs, check out http://infopad.eecs.b erkeley.edu/CIC/archive/cpu_history.html, http://www.mot.com/SPS/PowerPC/ and http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
And here only gay men and women (all orientations) have ever used Macs, ever since '84.
Basically this is because there are special subliminal suggestions blitted onto the screen by QuickDraw that say something to the effect of:
"IF YOU'RE A STRAIGHT MAN, DON'T USE THIS COMPUTER"
In fact, although the famous 1984 ad was broadcast during SuperBowl XVIII, the director (John Waters, not Ridley Scott, as many are led to believe) the messages printed on the bottom of the large screen encouraged straights watching to run right out during halftime and buy IBMs.
Although System 7.1, QuickTime, the Newton, and several other Apple products have always initially attracted straight men to them for their exceptional ease-of-use, or cool technology, or what have you, Apple has always consciously taken steps to prevent their actually using them.
I guess you were just too clever for us Ellis.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
At the '98 Macworld expo in NY, apple gave away nice posters with an iMac on them. The motto: I think, therefore iMac.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
| What does the IPX in Sun IPX mean? Is is a | reference to a (corporate) Novell network?
I think the Novell reference is probably unintentional. Sun put out a less powerful workstation (25 MHz sparc instead of 40 MHZ, bwtwo instead of cgsix framebuffer built-in) in the same "lunchbox" case called the Sparcstation IPC. A place to check our for more info would be www.sunhelp.com - they have links to various info on old and new Suns alike.
On the subject of Imac-like computeres and Suns, there were also the Sparc SLC and ELC systems. *Very* much like an Imac in design, excapt no internal hard drive. There was an external SCSI port that could presumably be used for that purpose, though.
-- Rick
| I want a full-power pc that will fit in the
| footprint of a keyboard and not cost 3x as much
| as the equiv desktop
This has already been done. Heck, computers for the home basically started out this way (C=64, etc.). More recently, Commodore basically had two products that were (for the time) baiscally what you describe - the A600 and the A1200. You could even hook them up to a television.
-- Rick
| Commodore Amiga 500
:)
Too big. it's a keyboard-and-cpu-in-one-unit design, but it's certainly not a "PC Keyboard" sized computer like the A600 or A1200 were. My Sparc IPX has less of a footprint.
-- Rick
or, Why your computer will "come in colors" too.
I hate to link off-site, but here's a lengthy (and refreshingly flame/troll free) discussion of computer styling.
Check it out.
Apple IIGS w/separate monitor, computer and keyboard - 1986. that's one full yeay before the Mac II. Besides, you didn't mention the separate keyboard issue so I didn't think it was an issue. :-)
Some computer were all 'keyboard' like my old MC-10 and the Commodore 64. I remember the IIGS well because my friend bought one and was playing around with Bill Cosby soundfiles the day I came over and saw it. btw, don't take it personally, I'm smiling and I view this as a fun challenge
Apple didn't steal anything of the sort. Maybe I need to put it simpler for you. Apple had been shipping computers w/out attached monitors for 8 years before the Mac even came along. When the Mac came out they didn't stop making the separate style components of the Apple II series. Oh, and the Mac II came out in 1987, not the early 90's.
Apple neither pioneered that a-i-o nor the separate case style as both had been in existence by many manufacturers for years. To imply Apple stole either idea or pioneered either idea is ludicrous!
Apple has always shipped 2 piece units from day one. Just because they initially shipped the Mac as a compact unit means nothing. It had a different purpose, it was supposed to be an information appliance. Show me s single all in one Apple, Apple II or Apple ///.
...I work at a reseller and we see a lot of iMacs pass thru here. Of all the ones that came back there was never a CDROM issue.
Begin the flames!
support gun control: take guns from cops
I'm disturbed by the way it looks like this heads.
It is true that a bunch of people, whether you want to insult them or not, buy things like computers because they look pretty. I know a handful of people who want iMacs who have never really shown much of an interest in anything more complicated than a toaster.
But are computer manufacturers interested in these types of computers? You bet! Absolutely! Right now, in obedience to Moore's Law, technology moves fast enought to make hardware obsolete very quickly. But with these "toaster" style computers (just plug it in!) you will have to buy a whole new system on your next upgrade cycle instead of just another $100 bucks for some new component.
"Oh, but the computers will be cheaper, so people will be able to afford them more easily", I hear you say. Bunk and double bunk. You'll just end up buying a new system slightly less often than you would have bought the smaller component. Computer makers stand to make WAY more profits on these 'quickie'-style computers.
I'm all for cheaper, but this tends to remind me of the 'integrated hardware on the motherboard' discussion a while back.
Check my Go-related blog for beginners: DGD
Well, apparently, you didn't read what I said. Who invented FireWire? Look how many companies are clamoring to incorporate it into their products. That inlcudes Compaq, Sony, Panasonic, IBM, etc. What's kinda funny is that Dell didn't buy into it early enough and will end up paying more or get left behind.
Next, what about Quicktime? Are you saying QT 3.x and 4.0 are "small things?" Try again. It's going to kick the crap out of Real and Windows Media Player.
Again, the surge of USB products (while not an Apple invented technology) lies SOLELY with the iMac and Apple. They pushed hard for it and vendors who make USB peripherals are seeing a nice increase in sales. Don't tell me there is no USB market.
I won't argue with you about service. Apple needs to get its tushy in gear as far as that's concerned.
Yeah, but that thing was the size of a suitcase. I am talking a true portable/laptop. And the debut of the trackball!!
Yeah, yeah, yeah... they pioneered the direct PC marketing movement. WHat else have they done? Not a lot. After Michael Dell's shares start to sputter during the next few years, let's see how "brilliant" Dell is. Their hardware is generic. Their industrial design sucks. They are an OEM reseller as far as I am concerned and nothing Michael Dell says means anything to me anymore. The day Dell comes up with something REMOTELY ingenius, like Apple seems to do on a regular basis, I might pay more attention to them....
I'll agree with you on that. Your school DOES suck! Most wired schools provide connections to a campus LAN and/or provide a phone line in the room. Where the hell do you go to school?
Since when has Apple been accused of "stealing" ideas in the PC industry? Who brought the GUI to the rest of us (don't start with the PARC thing...)? What about the true portable (PowerBook)? SCSI on the desktop? Firewire? USB (let's see when USB actually took off. PCs have had it for 2 years, yet no one gave a sh*t about it until the iMac came along and Apple pushed hard for it). Sure, they've had their fair share of "proprietary technologies," but so what? So has IBM. Now, they INCORPORATE PCI, EIDE disks, etc. I think your premise that "ideas from other markets are worthless" is stupid.
I love this argument. I've heard it about 50 times. Yet, since the iMac came out, I have yet to hear of ONE report where the CD-ROm tray actually broke. Give it a rest already.
Correction: the iMac IS a G3. G3 (as you no doubt looked into before you posted) refers to the generation of the processor. The PPC 601 was G1, 604 was G2, and the 750 is G3. (I'm not sure if the 603 falls into G2).
The current iMac uses, as you correctly pointed out, a 266 Mhz PPC G3.
While rumors about (and some vague confirmation) a fourth revision of the iMac in the next week or so to 300 or 333 Mhz, you are right to point out that the current one uses a 266.
Russell Ahrens
Oh, no! We're gonna get sued! :)
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
I remember back when Acer started putting those fruity vent holes in the sides of their cases, lotsa people were oohing and aahing over it. Now imacs and dells are coming out in semitransparent, multiflavored (computers are flavors now?) cases. How times do change.
For the market that the imac is targeted to, 64 megs of ram would do fine. 17" monitors are a nice plus, but not so nice to the end cost of a pc that's marketed to the home/new user/cheap audience. The same goes for scsi; it just adds to the cost of the pc. Cost that would better go for the option of adding in an add on usb hub. Scsi is meant for the high speed professional and enthusiast audiences who know all about installing devices and configuring things. Usb is meant for the "I want to plug it in and make it work" people.
Personally, I absolutely adore my home and work dell cases. Mainly because dell is one of the few big companies that still make the top of the case flat, so it's easy to sit stuff on top of. Although, a cow spotted box would definitely be a plus. Perhaps cow spotted with a flat top? I can dream.
you brought up some good points: benchmarks are often unreliable as indicators of overall performance (Apple's favorite Bytemark being a prime example), and that in "real-world" tests Mac systems are often hampered by inferior ports of software.
:)
That said, one should evaluate a system by real-world results. When you buy a computer, you're buying a system, not just a processor. If the system as a whole performs poorly, it doesn't really matter whether it's due to anemic hardware or poorly written software. You know the saying, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
You also seem to be exaggerating the G3's abilities compared to x86 machines. With equal clock speeds, the G3 is somewhat faster (10-20%) than a PII for most tasks (that was the NTSL result IIRC). But since PIIs (and now PIIIs, which are about 10% faster than similarly clocked PIIs) are available at higher clocks, (and usually lower $) than the G3, the performance edge of the G3 is eliminated when comparing high end chips of each type.
As for your assertion that if you code the same routine in PPC asm and x86 asm, the PPC one will win, the truth of that depends highly on what routine you're coding. Each processor will do better at certain tasks than others. And since the assembly will differ for each, due to the different instruction sets, there may be more efficient ways to do a particular task in one processor than the other. Especially in the case of routines that could make use of things like the Katmai instructions. In some, the PPC chip may blow away the x86, whereas in other routines it could very well be the opposite.
I'm not sure where the "3D rendering" Celeron vs G3 story came from, but it's possible that it's based on some routine that happens to run much better on P6-based chips than G3s...but whether it is or not doesn't really matter since it's clearly not representative of overall performance. It could just be a rumor. Such things tend to abound on the Net
It would be interesting to see how Linux systems running on both x86 and PPC hardware fared...it might erase some of the penalty MacOS imposes on the PPC hardware.
actually, I don't find it "cute" either. Looks cheap, and kinda ugly to me. Not that beige is the greatest thing, but the iMac is worse than beige even.
So no, you're not the only one who thinks the iMac is not cute. Even some Mac fans I know think it's pretty ugly.
-- my $.02
You make your points well, but some of your claims are rather debatable.
Small footprint: yes, this is definitely an advantage of the iMac. I wonder though how many people really even considered this in their purchasing decision.
"Coolness": well, that really depends on who you ask. I know people who think it's absolutely hideous (including some die-hard Mac fans), and there are others who think it's incredibly great.
Price/performance: well, not at all. You can get much better performing PCs for the same cost (or less) than the iMac. For example, a PC from Quantex (I have a Quantex and have been most impressed with it, and their tech support on those few occasions I needed it):
for $1218:
Intel Celeron Processor 333MHz
96MB SDRAM
17" Monitor
16MB Voodoo 3 2000 AGP 2x video
8.4 Gig Ultra ATA Hard Disk
56K fax/modem
128-bit PCI wavetable sound card
32X Max Variable Speed CDROM Drive
Stereo speakers
Keyboard and MS mouse
USB
3.5" 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Quantex ATX Mid Tower Case
MS Windows 98
Corel WordPerfect Office Suite 8
MS Money 97
Dr. Solomon's AntiVirus
AOL, Prodigy, Compuserve, Epoch software
and other misc. titles
3-year limited warranty with 1 year on-site service
24-hr./7-day Technical Support
============================
versus the iMac for $1199:
PowerPC G3 processor @ 266MHz
32 MB SDRAM
15" Monitor
6 MB ATI Rage Pro Turbo
6 Gig IDE hard disk
56K modem
ethernet port
sound (of unspecified capabilities)
24x variable speed CDROM
USB
Keyboard & mouse
MacOS 8.5.1
AppleWorks
Adobe Page Mill
Quicken 98
Earthlink software
and a couple other misc. titles
plus whatever tech support situation Apple has
======================
The two machines have almost exactly the same price, with comparable software bundles, but the hardware on the Quantex is just leagues ahead of the iMac.
I can attest that setup of the Quantex should also be about as easy as the iMac. Cables are all color coded, making initial setup of the box easy. Also included is a easy-to-read/use setup guide, which is basically a poster-like thing with basic instructions in case you need it. All you do is plug the cables into their color-coded positions and turn the thing on. AOL setup is easy, and you're on the Net quickly.
oh, BTW, since you asked even Dell can do better than the iMac: ($1156 gives Celeron 333, 64MB SDRAM, 17" monitor, ATI 8MB AGP video, 32x CDROM, 64voice wavetable sound, 56K modem, Win98, MS Works 99 and MS Money 99, Keyboard and Logitech Mouse w/wheel, 3-yr warranty, 1-yr next day onsite service, floppy drive, McAfee Antivirus, yadda yadda yadda)
My counterargument is that having a disk drive, or more precisely a disk-based OS, is what cripples a PC. The "flexibility" of the PC is its biggest problem. Being able to add software and update pieces of the OS and choose how you configure your hardware is what makes PCs unreliable and complex.
Very few people are interested in a PC's flexibility. It just happens to be the only way you can run AOL, Quicken and Word 97. Give someone something with those apps in ROM or on a DVD, and let them save documents on a network or on flashcards, and I swear they'll hug you. And this is the real reason why the next-generation consumer OS from Microsoft isn't going to be NT. It's going to be CE, and Microsoft knows this already.
In order to make a desktop computer truly easy to use and bring maintenance to absolute zero (which is what it should be), you have to stop trying to add layers of software to a PC and rather strip the complex crap away. Leaving a thin device.
If it means less-ugly PCs, fine. But this isn't what the industry needs most.
The general-purpose PC with a disk-based OS is an anachronism. I'm a geek. I like doing geek stuff with a unix machine as much as the next geek.
But the PC, in its 20-year-old recognizable form, is not and never will be an appealing home fixture. Even on a Mac or Windows PC, everyone spends a huge amount of their computing time playing system administrator: running installers, resolving conflicts, cleaning up files, using virus checkers, refreshing the OS, troubleshooting hardware and so forth.
The only reason any non-geek puts up with this is that a PC is the only way you can run Quicken, or a WYSIWYG word processor, or look at big web pages. Nobody likes it. I don't.
Thin clients, NCs, computing appliances, call them whatever you want. They're the future for the vast majority of the things PCs are used for.
You write software? Fine, keep your disk-based PC for a while. But everyone else will be happy, indeed thrilled, to have a diskless workstation running local and remote apps stored on a network. Maybe it will run WinCE. Maybe it'll run an embedded ROM version of Linux, or whatever. But cable modems and DSL will make it possible for the vast majority of people who want to use applications to use them and not become a CompSci minor in order to keep it running.
I'm sick of geeks slagging things like WebTV on the basis of it being limited. Its limitations are its strengths. It can browse 95% of the web, and works with all the public sites anyone really needs (search engines, shopping, news and reference). It can send and receive email. It can read porn newsgroups. It can access IRC.
So much focus is on what it doesn't do: it can't be used to write a print memo. It can't be used to edit graphics. It can't be used to run an Atari 2600 emulator. It can't be used to write C++.
I prefer to focus on the other things it doesn't do or have. It doesn't crash. It doesn't get infected with viruses. It doesn't experience file corruption. It doesn't need security patches. It doesn't require users to install software. It doesn't require an understanding of IRQ conflicts. It doesn't have environment variables.
Expanding what this kind of thing does (and this kind of thing includes Palmpilots, game consoles, and Winframe terminals) in equally clean, simple, foolproof ways is where things need to and will go. Trying to simplify disk-based PCs is futile. Disk-based OSes belong on application servers. Period.
People say "that's good" (for Dell, at least) because the iMac sold really really well, despite its shortcomings.
I was personally annoyed by the iMac because having used Mac toasters all through college, I know just how much better a separate monitor you can swivel to a comfortable angle is.
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Not to mention, where are we gonna find enough Tubby Toast to feed them all?
----------------------
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
Michael Dell doesn't need "to get" anything. He gets boxes sold. What most of us fail to understand is that Dell is not a technology company, Dell is a highly fine-tuned business for moving boxes and bullying suppliers into nonexistent margins.
He is going to do it, he is going to do it the right way (from a boxmover's point of view, not a technologist's point of view) and he's going to be moving even more boxes than he does now.
Let's see you do that.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
As usual, I don't see the cost of assembly, configuration and mantainence. As somone once observed, "Linux is only free if your time has no value." The same could be said for Windows.
My mother is not going to buy your system. Like me, she buys a machine to get work done. She has an iMac and loves it. I have an office full of
Macs and I spend almost no time maintaining them (and I'm a programmer and I punish them pretty hard.).
We also have two Linux boxes and they are a big time sink.
You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
The origional Mac 128k was the remake of the Lisa. Pretty much the same components (inside), different keyboard and mouse. All the basic technologies were there (QuickDraw, GUI, etc), just in a bigger (and uglier) package.
And do get that AppleDesign book. I liked it because it didn't refer to specs as much (come to think of it, at all) as it did to the design of the computer/mouse/moniter/thingie. I also wish the would have released some of that stuff. The other Sparticus (20th Anniversary Mac) prototypes were pretty sweet.
The one and (thankfully) only,
LafinJack
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
The kind of user you are talking about ( doesn't know how to lock a case, doesn't want to get inside their case ) has their prayers answered by the iMac. btw, are their any G3-like PC cases ??? I'd die for one of these ...
cheers,
Perhaps the point of this is partly to segregate Dells cheapo machines with their standard line, so that they can make an entry into the low cost market without losing their reputation as a vendor who make quality machines.
In light of this, their move makes a lot of sense. Apple employed a similar strategy -- make the cheapo iMac , but clearly define the boundary between this and their quality product ( the G3 )
Personally, I am not a fan of the iMac design. Monitors have a high "lemon" rate, so leaching the monitor onto the system is a bad move ( or maybe Im wrong. Can you change monitors on these things without too much hassle ? )
Not to be a pain in the ass, but you must remember that Apple bought the GUI ideas from Xerox. One piece design? TRS-80 Model III & IV. Not to mention that the Mac development environment has a remarkable similarity to UNIX utilities. Don't some of them use IDE drives now?
What I'm getting at is that Apples got its biggest innovation (GUI for everything) from someone else. They had the vision, yes, but lets not go out and say that people are stealing ideas here. Ideas have been bought, and reworked since the beinging of time.
What I will concede to is that Macs have better workmanship/assembly, and overall hardware quality than most PCs I've seen. The little bomb pisses me off, though.
- Dan
I can build an AMD based system for a signifigant .2, I really wish someone was writing pre-school software for Linux... I don't think they're ready for Quake 8]
amount less, though. Its hard to justify the extra price because 'its really cute'
My kids are 5, 3, and
Thos Imacs are *sooo* cute, I want one, even understanding the terrible price/performance ratio. I'd love to be able to set up a one-piece PC for my kids in their bedroom, something like an Imac that doesnt take up much space.
Not terrible, but its hard to justify $1200 for the *sixth* PC in the house.
and soon to be joined by a sun 3/80, too.
As far as I remember, the name of the Lisa was changed to the Macintosh XL.
Well, if there is good technology, it's ok to use it. ( If you pay the price. )
So, there is nothing wrong with the fact
that Apple uses the USB, IDE, etc.
If people insist, "this company steals this from
others.", it is very childish.
( But the Microsoft style is very bad. They make people think that they made the GUI, and "we are first." imporession with many things. ( Although it is actually done by Apple, IBM, etc. )
By the way, the USB is borrowed its idea from the ADB. ( Apple Desktop Bus ) Compare the spec.
It has wider bandwidth, speed. But it's a serial bus similar to the ADB.
How about SCSI? Shouldn't PC makers use the SCSI?
It's not invented by Apple, but it is known to people thanks to Apple. ( People don't know SUN, generally. )
PCI? It's not only for PC technology, although it was made by the Intel, and others. Shoudn't Apple use it?
It's too childish subject.
I think iMac like IBM clones are good for us.
I hope it would be less troublesome just like Apple hardware. To be similar like the Apple hardware, it should be SCSI bootable, and the CD-ROM device drivers should be in the ROM!
( for SCSI CD-ROM drivers and EIDE ones. )
When you need to reinstall the Windows ( due to
really serious trouble ), sometimes you may not have the CD-ROM device driver installed booting disk. Your old DOS diskette may not work. ( Yes.
it's magnetic. ) What will you do?
I think iMac-like PC with Linux, with Mac like easy of maintenance is perfect match.
Because it will be inexpensive, joyfull to use, and gives less headache to solve some awkward problems.
I insist the iMac should be $500, and the Linux for iMac should be as recent as that for PCs!
I'm seriosly looking at the iMac for Linux.
( iMac-like PCs could be better for me! )
> Apple is only one company with an occasional
> good idea and consistent good design execution
Totally agree.
But they lacks the skill of "how to maintain the
situation."
They have had good technologies which could be
standard. But they are not so powerful in marketting. It's their biggest problem, I think.
> Apple is only one company with an occasional
> good idea and consistent good design execution
Absolutely agree.
But they lacks the skill of "how to maintain the
situation."
They have had good technologies which could be
standard. But they are not so powerful in marketting. It's their biggest problem, I think.
I have an iMac, and although the CD has not broken, and I don't expect it to, it is still pretty cheap. You have to pull it out manually, and it is not mounted securely, and so it makes rather noisy rattling sounds.
My modem is also very> flaky.
The iMac is a sweet machine--fast processor, gorgeous monitor, great form factor-- but the CD-ROM and modem leave a lot to be desired.
or maybe Im wrong. Can you change monitors on these things without too much hassle?
Not a chance. It is hard to replace the memory without breaking something. I am reasonably competent with changing computer components, and I have not taken my iMac apart at all--I'm afraid I'm gonna break something.
On the other hand, the iMac has one of the nicest 15" monitors I have seen. I don't know what the failure rate is, but you can get rock-solid images at 1024 X 768 resolution. I suspect that lemon monitors are rare.
Yeah, just replaced an overloaded 235W with a 300. 235 in an oversized atx. What _were_ they thinking? The 300 people were nice enough to reverse the fan.
The RAM is PC100
The monitor? No, it wouldn't be as good as the imac. The imac is $999 IIRC, not $600, sooo
The case? Why is that bad? It doesn't need to do much. Cases are important, but not for joe Bob user (I have a cool In Win Q500 Super death tower).
He just said do that for $600. I did. The monitor? Bump it up to the $999 imac price, and you can get a _good_ 17 incher. The imac is a good home system, I'm not arguing that.
Until the break the cdrom drive. The whole thing comes out upon ejection, so it's super breakable.
K6-200
Abit AX-5 MB
64MB RAM
11.9 GB Maxtor
3.1 GB WD
2x2x6 CDRW
40x CD
Floppy
2 Case fans
1 CPU fans
1 Diamond V330
1 CL V2 12MB
1 CL SB16
1 CL SB128
1 3Com 3c905B NIC
1 CL 28.8 Modem
Remember, I only had $600 to play with, not the full $1299.
We're talking about power supplies. That config waas too much for my little 235W.
Ok, were at $528.
Generic NE2000 ~15
Modem- ~40
Speakers- ~20
IR is on most MB's.
SB 16- ~15
Keybd- ~5
Mouse- ~10
sooo $633. Bump the 400 down to a 366 and we are less than $550. Don't get me wrong though, this system would suck. I'm just saying that it is possible. Besides, Apple has a bonus because their parts are cheaper.
You're exactly right.
In his defense, this was a flip remark made in response to a stupid question from a journalist.
Apple was never in as much trouble as the press made them out to be.
What would you do if you were the CEO of Apple?
Rephrase: What would you do if you were the CEO of a company with the most rabidly loyal user base on the planet?
The truth is, how much faster does the general population need to word process? They've tacked on spell checks, grammar checks, autocompletes, yadda, yadda, yadda. The last bit of the population don't need upgradability. They want to email, surf, write papers and manage finances.
;)
It isn't all about "I can build a machine for 500." It is what works for people. Part of the untapped market needs cheaper machines - I agree.
The only thing that is differing machines anymore is how they look. After all, you a 56k modem can't saturate a cheap, modern microprocessor.
Think about the general folks. I personally wouldn't buy an iMac because I enjoy upgradability to the Nth. The minitower G3's though, have my need. Grandma and Aunt Flo don't care about adding another 30 gigs of HD space. Y'know those Christmas letters are going to suck up the drive space something fierce.
_________________________________ he who laughs last is at 300 baud
I do, however, have to give Apple some credit for the interesting case design of the G3. The fold-out motherboard is an excellent idea.
Not have killed off my Amiga line?
Ummm... last time I checked, upgrading a Mac was as simple as pulling the daughter card and plugging a new one in. There's none of this "oh, my processor uses a different slot, so I have to get a new motherboard, and my new motherboard uses different sized RAM, so I have to get new ram, and my video card won't work anymore, so I have to get a new video card...etc." Have you even _seen_ the inside of a Mac?
if you look in the back of several computer magazines you can find an ad for just such a computer. It's basically a laptop motherboard inside a keyboard. It has a hard drive, modem/NIC, video card and all that. You just plug it into a monitor and you're ready to go. They offer it with Windows 95 pre-installed but you could easily put linux on it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Ummm....
I missed it...are you saying that the PC's configuration is *better* than the iMac's?
That PC:
1. has no network card
2. has 2 GB *less* hard drive space (although before I read your specs I was under the impression that the iMac had 4 GB of Hard Drive space, not 6...)
3. has 128 KB L2 cache, compared to the iMac's 512 KB (and for those of you who don't realize, this makes a *HUGE* difference. I don't care what processor speed you claim, if you're wasting all your time on memory traffic, you're toast.)
I'll admit, the PC does have 8 MB of video RAM, while the iMac only has 2 MB. And its hard to compare the monitor specs (the PC's is larger, but I don't know much about the quality of either one). But I wouldn't say that the iMac "does not compare"
-Felix
arvind rulez
iMac's are toys... and now Dell wants to make toys. It's sad when the market doesn't understand that "cuteness" doesn't really affect anything... that is, except stock price.
I suppose PC's could use a face lift though. I think the whole cuteness thing is part of the "paradigm shift" to non-geeks using computers.
What will they come up with next... a PC shaped like a penguin?
My uncle bought one when it came out and he loves it. He is one of the prime target demographics for the iMac: retired, first time computer buyer. He uses it to surf the web, get email, and learn a new skill. He doesn't care about all the technical mumbo-jumbo that is the meat and potatoes of many a /.er.
I'm still a bit puzzled how a company so frequently characterized as insignificant and lame generates so much controversy here and elsewere; if Apple is so doomed (as they have been since around 1978 or so), why can't every body stop talking about them?
The music is not in the piano -Clement Mok
Funny, I wouldn't say that USB has really taken off yet. The reason no one gave a sh*t about it until the iMac is because when the iMac came along, there wasn't a choice. The darn thing has USB keyboard and mouse (both of which are extremely too small, BTW) and the only good way to get any sort of removable storage for the thing is over USB....
And, if everyone thinks they make such great network computers, they should start reading all the complaining going on around here at my university where they recently replaced hundreds of apple's with the new iMacs... All the general student population is extremely upset over not having a floppy drive. Yes, yes I know, we're not supposed to need one anymore and such, but the students that are complaining about it are "normal" users for whom the iMac is targetted. They're students who want to be able to save to disk to bring papers home to work on and such.
---- Dave
Apple and Microsoft settled that for an undisclosed sum a loooong time ago. And as I understand it, they settled for waaaaay more than $150 million.
It's got a single chubby screw in the back you can take off with your fingers, and the side panel came off. As far as PC cases go, this was a lot more convenient than the standard OEM six-scewer. Still, it's not as convenient as the G3's case, since popping off the side panel still required a little force and the motherboard was still buried behind all the device bays.
There was a company named Infinital that originally developed that computer, and it was called the One while it was over there. Then they suddenly canceled it and I guess someone else picked up the rights tothe product. Still, getting a Pentium MMX for $1500 is obscene.
Who says MS can't come up with something by themselves?
That you even got a score of 1.
But what if you don't want all that stuff? I have an iMac, a 603 Performa, and a PowerBook 5300 at home (to go along with my 486 Linux laptop). And you know what? He's right. Macs are more expensive.
In fact, the Macintosh philosophy is completely the opposite of the Linux philosophy. While Linux creates a thin OS by good engineering and throwing out junk you don't want, the Mac makes things easier by good engineering and including junk you don't want. What if I don't want USB, or accelreated graphics, or built in 16 bit stereo.
The Mac has many strengths, and the floating point rocks, but it still has high costs.
I want one for my bedroom, though I'll have to install Linux on it.
I've been tempted to pickup an iMac to use as a cheep x-terminal in my bedroom. This givers me other options.
I agree that the CD-drive in the Imac is a fairly solid unit.
However, when you stick a classroom full of 'em in a public school (Apple still has a huge market share in this area), replacing these proprietary Cd-drives because some bonehead kids keep jamming stuff in there or screwing with them in general, gets expensive real quick.
It's embarrassing that you two would suggest that only women buy iMacs and for one of two reasons:
a) 'cause they're technically illiterate and unable to setup their own machines.
b) 'cause, like babies, they're attracted to pretty colours.
I only know five people who own iMacs and all of them are middle-aged men. Comon guys, women may be a minority here, but that doesn't mean you can get away with this kind of talk. And if YOUR mothers/girlfriends/girl friends can't setup a computer, why not spend the time teaching them instead of helping them take the easy way out?
So let me get this straight...you can get a processor that's equivilant to a G3 333 (which elsewhere in this comment list was equated to a 400-450 Mhz P2 or whatever), a 6 gig HD, 32 Ram, 24x CD-Rom, 6 MB Vram on a Rage Pro, USB card, and a monitor (last time I checked it was 15") for $600?
By all means, please show me where.
...Dell is the company that did it.
Dell is the company that has announced it; announcing and doing are two different things. Until I can plunk down my $ and get an iDell, they didn't do it.
Sheesh, why didn't Gateway do this?
:) I quit working for Gateway about two months ago. One of the last semi-secret projects I saw was a collection of really off-beat cases. We're not talking beige with clear, colored plastic; we're talking psychedelic colors, wavy-shaped cases, multiple cases per system. My favorite was a two-piece fuschia system; one part housed the CPU, memory, etc. and one housed the drives. The monitor was separate as well.
I have no idea if that project will come to fruition, but I think the iMac's success, the increased consumer market penetration, and the proliferation of low-power, low-$ computers are commoditizing the home PC market. I see computers as becoming more and more like cars, with few important engineering differences but lots of cosmetic options to make your computer look cool and different from your neighbors.
The Apple III was not the Lisa, though one of the Macs was - I think it was the Mac II, or the Mac + or something. I remember being very impressed by the Lisa's features when it came out, but figured that for $10,000 it'd better do SOMETHING cool. I was an Apple II buff at the time, then got into Commodores, and only then into PCs. Anyway, I was surprised to read recently that Apple re-released the Lisa as one of their earlier Mac models. if anybody remembers exactly which, it'd be nice to know...
Anyway, the Apple III was IIRC a souped up Apple II, with 128k of RAM and targeted at business users.
Now if the MacOS had just taken some cues from Win95 - like preemptive multi-tasking, or protected memory space. The GPFs you got in Windows were an indication that an application had done something bad and the OS knew about it. The MacOS would go on its happy way while applications overwrote each other and corrupted your documents and would never say a thing until the whole thing locked up.
OK, I was a bit too general there. However, I see supporting Java and OpenGL as merely trying to do what MS is not, like picking through the MS garbage heap to see what MS has pitched out. My real question is this - what has Apple stolen from Microsoft?
So you're saying that the wintel market is willing to admit that it doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas, and that it is willing to look outside of its own boundaries to see what will be successful. Does Apple do this? Is Apple known for "stealing" other people's ideas? Or does Apple assume that it has the One True Way and that ideas from other markets are worthless? I tend to believe that Apple holds the latter idea, and I think that it is an element in Apple's marginalization.
Hmm.... and just hink maybe Dell wouldn't have gotten this idea if Apple had folowed Michale Dell's idea of seilling off the comany and giving the money to the stock holders....
Ryan Dorman, CCNA Network Communications Specialist Millersville Univesrity
It`s a nifty little box. I was going to buy one but I couldn`t decide what colour I wanted.
The Mac G3 cas *is* sweet for a hardware hacker. But is it practical for the average user?
Here are my complaints:
- Too big. Computers should really be moving to be as small and out of sight as possible. I am sure everybody has the same problem I keep having: my case is bulky and gets in the way.
- Security. Even if you have a lock for a computer case, who actually locks it. By making it easy to get in, that means people will just pop open the case, 'barrow' a few SIMMS or something else. A better design for the average user is a case that is sealed shut from the factory (ok, maybe that is an extreme -- buts screws are perfectly acceptable).
- Upgradablility is a luxury no average user needs. I know my mom will *never* open up her computer case.
I think computers can learn from cars. Make the exterior look cool, the interface clean, but the internals compact and not necessarily easily accessable. I mean, the only person who really cares that my Toyota's oil filter is hard to reach is the guy at Jiffy Lube who has to replace it. How many more drivers are there than mechanics?
Computer repair people can deal with tight, elegant case designs; they are trained to do it. Most people will never open their case like they will never open the hood on their car.
-tbd
If they re-did the iMac design but with say a 15" LCD screen I'd buy one. Sure it'd be like 2 grand, but it would fit almost anywhere. Half the depth I'd assume....Sweeeeeeet....
Blar.
Oh just like they stole the idea of the separate CPU and Monitor idea from IBM back in the early 90's for the MacII?
Silly Apple, your arrogance ensures you will never ammount to much...
Blar.
AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
what began as a dig at some frothy advocate is becoming annoying. CPU. Monitor. Keyboard. 3 pieces. Never been done in Apple-land up until that MacII came out. I don't really care tho, but it's nice to see the old FIDO-net jibes still work after all these years...
Blar.
Remember the stealth Aptivas? They had the floppy and CD-ROM in a little box under the monitor, and the rest of the system sat on the floor. I don't belive you can buy them anymore but they sure were sweet looking.
Blar.
The Apple III had separate Monitor and CPU? Wasn't the Apple III a Lisa?
An Apple IIgs looked just like a PC. The Monitor was not attached to the CPU. The keyboard was attached to the CPU...by a CABLE!
think about it...
fanatics...sigh...
Blar.
Or perhaps I wasn't specific enough. The MacII had an external onitor. This was separate from the CPU and the keyboard. Just like a PC. Ironic...
Blar.
Web TV really isn't a bad solution for the masses who want to do a bit of email, surf for pr0n, and sit on the couch. I think that similar devices are where the PC industry is heading. However I disagree with the notion that these devices will be thin-clients or diskless NC's. The price of computer hardware is constantly dropping so fast that there is not a very compelling reason to cripple these machines by removing the disks.
I really don't see these devices catching on until you have about 70 percent of the functionality of a normal PC. People will still want word processing, simple financial software, and other home oriented programs. In addition, they are going to want to be able to print. Add on game console functionality, DVD video, CD/MP3 audio and you are all set. So far everything that I've described can be done without a disk in the box if you have enough bandwidth.
Now ask yourself: Are people really going to feel comfortable storing all of their files on a remote server? I don't want to be cut off from my term paper when the cable goes out. What about needing to download your favorite mp3 every time you want to play it? No thanks. I want a local disk to store my files, and my OS. Especially since a small HD with a controller won't add too much to the overall cost of the device.
With a disk comes the complexity of administration, and learning the operating system. This does not need to become an obstacle however. All you need is a very simple, task specific OS that anyone can figure out. Good UI design is possible, and would be necessary in this kind of situation. Then make software upgrades as simple as Debian's apt-get, and set it up as an automated process. Care would need to be taken in the implementation, but it could be mostly transparent. Ideally, you should be able to put together an all-in-one set top box with plenty of computing power at a price point acceptable for the masses. Develop a good, mindless OS to control it with, and then stake out the prime spot on the couch. Hardware is, and should continue to be inexpensive enough that there isn't yet a reason to produce neutered computers.
I think that we pretty much have a similar picture of the PC of the future. However I still assert that local disk storage, and even a local OS, is still the best way of implementing the concept. Leaving the OS on the local machine creates a device that does not depend on the network for its functionality. Now in terms of an OS, Im not describing Linux, Windows, or any other product on the market. I'm talking about a minimally configurable system designed to work on one variety of dedicated hardware. Everyone has the same interface, suite of applications, and basic configuration. It only does certain things, but it does them well.
The advantages are numerous. Those without massive bandwidth have a usable system right out of the box. No network connection necessary. If the cable modem/DSL/T1/satellite link is out, the thing still works well. As high bandwidth connectivity penetrates into the home market, less of this bandwidth is consumed with OS issues that are best served locally. Files can be stored on the user's disk, which helps to resolve privacy issues. Browser cache resides on the disk, reducing the demand for RAM, and unburdening the network. The disk could even be used to store video (granted this would increase the cost) from brodcasts, which helps kill the need for a VCR. There are many examples of items that would be more easily stored locally than across the network. Photos from a digital camera, mp3's, sensitive documents and so on. Flash memory is a more expensive, and perhaps less reliable technology right now. Disks are fairly cheap, and will continue to be useful long into the future.
Having the OS on the disk does not have to be a maintenance nightmare. First, minimize the options that the user can configure. Then take away all of the user access to the system partition of the drive, just give them a user area to store files. Next, drastically limit the hardware that can be connected to the device. Make the core of the PC a sealed black box with built in ethernet and TV out. Add one brand of wireless keyboard and pointing device. Include a pair of game controllers. One, maybe two types of printer. Keep it as simple as possible while offering in demand functionlality. Set yourelf up as the only hardware manufacturer, and say goodbye to hardware conflicts. Finally, make the OS upgradeable (even seamlessly replaceable) in a transparent automatic process. This allows the addition of new features, and the repair of software bugs. Times will change and the PC will be able to change with them. Having a disk in the box allows greater utility without a substantial increase in cost or complexity. Plus most consumers these days will probably prefer a disk. Getting people to store everything on a huge central server seems like a tough sell for at least the next couple of years.
Note: The system I'm describing is not for the slashdot crowd. Its for the people who dont know the subtle distinction between Windows and Office version numbers even though they work with them everyday. Its for people who grasp the mouse with white knuckles because theyre afraid of the damn thing. I'm not even really advocating this computing appliance approach. Personally, I think it would be better to raise competent users instead of making an OS for the incompetent. Yet I do see a demand for such products, and believe that the market will respond to this demand in a big way over the next five years. Also, I'd like to point out that I don't work for a hard disk manufacturer.
I remember about a year or so ago when Dell flamboyantly declared that apple should fold and give the proceeds back to the stockholders, I find it interesting that Dell would be taking que from Apple now... oh my how the times have changed. -- Never really did like you much anyway.
Because now it's been proven that cute little computers sell like hotcakes.
New and risky ideas are often poo-pooed and mocked, because people are either unsure that they'll work, or afraid that they'll work.
Dell is attempting to cash in on idea that has already been proven to work, so they seem wise (from a business standpoint, anyway).
Okay, I got Linux installed. So where's the free beer everyone keeps talking about??
Nitrogen. It's about time.
I think Clear one piece computer has been an idea for awhile.
Yes, but, they are admitting that they are taking design cues from the iMac. Sounds like Microsoft taking cues from the MacOS for Win95.
--
InstantCool
Design cues from NeXT, yes, but the way the GUI works is extremely Mac like.
--
InstantCool
I admit that computer companies steal ideas from each other all the time. But Win95 just seems too much like a Mac. The jump between Win 3.1 and 95 was just too huge. They just ripped off funtionality. But anyway...
--
InstantCool
The new monitors for those G3's are have a cool over looked feature. The keyboard fits under the monitor. A keyboard garage! I haven't seen one of those since the Amiga 1000.
--
InstantCool
I think you underestimate the power of a G3.
--
InstantCool
They are taking cues on those very issues. Their just going to do them right with MacOS X. Server already has them. Don't forget about Y2K issues. Hope you're not relying on Windows to take you into the next millineum.
--
InstantCool
Here's a clip of an article from MacOS Rumors (a great Mac news site).
"Later in the year, the "C2" iMac will ship (release dates have fluctuated, but what is known is that "it will ship before the school year begins." This will start at either 350 or 366MHz, depending on Apple's RAM specification plans. Speculation with a strong basis in fact points to Apple plans to spec' this machine with a standard 64MB of SDRAM. There will reportedly be at least one DVD configuration, graphics will be provided by a version of the RAGE 128 graphics chip with 8MB of SGRAM, and Firewire will be on-board. Rumors of PCI slots capable of accepting 5" cards continue to be unconfirmed and considered unreliable. The C2 is expected to retail for $999."
There's your $999 price point and with FireWire. I want one. Even if you don't like the MacOS, I think this would make an awesome Linux machine. Anyone working on FireWire drivers for Linux?
--
InstantCool
>Upgradablility is a luxury no average user needs. I know my mom will *never* open up her computer case
This is why your mom should buy an iMac and not a B&W G3. I mean, this *is* a reason Apple made these two beasts different in the first place.
? "How many RC5 keys?" This is one of the dumber things to hold up as a viable benchmark. At least try comparing on specint/specfp values...how many people are buying there machines to crack RC5?? Don't get me wrong, the G3 is nice, but it's doesn't have enough of a speed edge to be compelling in any sense.
CJK
We recently got a machine from Acer ( http://www.acer.com/aac/products/a_power/flex/inde x.htm ) and this is the next step in PC design. Look how small it looks under the 17" monitor in the pic. It's like a thick laptop. Think about television. TVs started as ugly but functional, then they were furniture. Now TVs and VCRs just kind of fade into the background. The PC will eventually be a component like a VCR or just vanish into the infrastructure of the house. So right now, the iMac is moving us into the In-Your-Face phase of computer evolution, and Dell is moving with them.
the other idea i had was a mini-at desktop case in the same form-factor of a stereo component, with a black (or dark grey color) to it and a door to cover the inevitable beige drives on the front of it. That way I can just put it into my component rack and use it for net (my tv is a princeton 27" multimedia monitor 800x600) and digital a/v pre-processing. But the cases all seem to be beige, too big, or have their drive bays exposed. It's an ongoing project of mine to find this. WebTV is not a bad prototype for form factor, though not for technology
not to mention my TR(a)S(h)-80 color computer, but I haven't seen a good example lately.
in 12-18 months time it will also come up against the PlayStation 2, which WILL play DVD and which WILL come with some sort of net connectivity in-box, supposedly for $200-$300. Granted, it's limited to TV res (unless, like the Dreamcast, it will have a VGA box addon). This could prove the "killer app" in this market, as in killing the iMac and its cousins among casual web and email users.
just my $.02
I want a full-power pc that will fit in the footprint of a keyboard and not cost 3x as much as the equiv desktop (read: not a laptop). One day maybe...
Ahhh yes, the aptiva-s. the s was mistakenly construed to mean stealth, whereas anyone who had looked at one closely would realise that it means SLOW
i don't like the mouse, either. however after using it for a bit of time i became use to it...i still prefer my kensington thinkmouse instead!
-- ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space!
Yeah, it would have been a lot better if Apple supported ActiveX and Direct3D, right? Everybody knows that those technologies are better than anything else out there.
Come on. Apple finally kicked their NIH syndrome, and went out and found the best solutions to the problems. And somehow, this is a reason to dog on 'em because they didn't do it the way MS did? That's patently ridiculous.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
This is SUCH a tired dead horse. Want a floppy drive? Buy one. Don't want one? Don't. I think it's a GREAT idea to get people out of the habit of using unreliable floppies. TEACH the students to email floppy-sized files to themselves.
By what measure do you say that USB hasn't taken off? What would a "taken off" USB implementation do that the current one does not? I don't understand your objection.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I speak from experience. My school allowed, even encouraged, me to use email for small (floppy sized) files.
If a school buys computers without floppy drives, and doesn't allow people to email files in or out, and doesn't allow people to connect external storage media, and doesn't allow you to connect a laptop, then what the hell good are the computers? Sounds like the school's fault, not a design flaw on Apple's part. If you can't use CD's, what's to say that they'd let you use floppies even if the computers DID have floppy drives? Come on.
Seems to me that the schools need to be reminded that the students BOUGHT the computers.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Or just like one of those, erm, Apple II's. Or Apple I's. Or Apple IIGX's. Or Apple IIC's. Or Apple ///'s. Yeah, those separate-monitor-idea stealing bastards...they stole it even before IBM got a chance to ship one!
Whatever.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Like when Explorer.exe GPF's user.exe or gdi.exe...that's just the application. Has nothing to do with the underlying OS, right? Windows98/95 are completely stable...until you try to use them. Or leave 'em running for 45.86 (is that the right number?) days straight.
Oops! My foot was on the sarcasm button again.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Dell is moving BEHIND them...and that's where theyr'e going to stay.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I thought Centipede was the debut of the trackball... or was it that really old Atari football game?
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I could have swore that Compaq had the first portable computer, long before the powerbook.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Nah.. they should copy something a bit more like the Acorn Risc PC:
This great machine had a polycarbonate slice-based system, where if you ran out of space in the machine, you just took the top panel off, added another slice, and put the top panel back on.
They weren't very pretty as consumer devices, but a cool concept... Check these ones out -- a workstation with a built-in pizza oven and kitchen sink!
Rumor has is that the iMacs will be bumped up to 333MHz later this year for the same $1199 price point.
You can get an iMac for under a grand now. $899 for a revision b flavour. Some rumours even have revision a's at $799.
Something really witty should be here...
All this chat just makes me laugh. You all seem to miss the important point here:
The iMac was and is being marketed for the first time user, NOT for those of us who like to tinker and play and upgrade and expand and put to use all the functionality we get with the systems we currently have. The person who buys the iMac will most likely never have the worries of having to upgrade their video card/ram/processor in order to render their 3d graphics for the first person shooter that they're coding. They just want to surf the web, get their e-mail, and PLAY the games. With the iMac they get just that. Nothing more, nothing less. Lest we forget, it is for the first time buyer/user, NOT the Guru...
Something really witty should be here...
Maybe you should do some investigation. Ask all the little girls at a college or university why they have an iMac and I'm sure they won't tell you because of features. They like the pretty colors.
...
I swear I've seen more girls here with iMacs
the iMac is most definately runnning a G3 processor...
Point and Grunt
Patents don't cover as much as you might think when it comes to design. Obviously Dell could not cc Apple's case, but they could safely design a quite similar case. The idea behing the case and the general look & feel can be similar without any copyright infringement.
How about IEEE-1394, otherwise known as Apple's Firewire technonogy? Don't ever count Apple out when it comes to technical capability or innovation.
Yes, that 4' cord between the monitor and the main box sure is expensive and complex...
The monitor is just about the only piece of computer equipment you can keep for more than 2 years! It's also the easiest piece to upgrade. Never mind the ability to place it at a comfortable height and swivel it to show someone the screen.
A closed-box design with just a keyboard cord, a USB port, a phone jack and/or ethernet plug, and a monitor is a reasonably good idea. Cutting out one more cord by integrating the monitor is sub-moronic, I don't care how cute it looks.
I was referring to merit, not marketability.
Besides, Apple buyers are lemmings: they'll keep buying anything new from Apple, as long as it is from Apple, and especially if it's presented as a Big New Thing. It's pure novelty (retro-novelty, if you can buy that), and an excuse for Apple-users to make that overdue upgrade. If the monitor sat on top of the main box and was connected with a short cord it would have sold just as well.
This kind of nonsense never has and never will work in the PC market, where buyers have a choice between competing hardware vendors. The average PC user may not understand the value of L2 cache, but he sure knows that a pretty case isn't worth extra money or limited upgradability.
therefore I am.
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
micro$oft just offered $120 billion to buy dell. it's on this yahoo news page i just saw...
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
Based on the number of tidbit Rob posts about Apple and the iMac, not to mention that he rarely slams Apple like many other /.ers, I think Rob has at least an iMac and probably a G3 at home/work.
Hell he may even switch to OSXserver.... but I doubt it.
Yo!
Mmmm... I think you need to go back and re-read joshamania's statement; I didn't see anything in there were he claimed one was better than the other. He said Apple may a margin into the product, but he doesn't know for sure. Only the people at Apple could really know for sure (or those who can get the information out of them). You jumping on his case like that was unnecessary; it would perhaps be better if you read his post correctly...
MAG 15" Trinitron XJ500T: $135
Sony 15" Trinitron 100es: $151 (at a local comp store)
You don't have to pay a lot for a good 15" monitor nowadays...
and for the MultiSync fans (I prefer Trinitron):
NEC MultiSync A500, 15": $174
Well... yeah, your right... there is no contest on that point. Mine was from the point that most of the people reading this know what they are doing with the insides. The size and components of the iMac are good ('cept the OS), and there are plenty of machines out there that, when coupled with the monitor, are still cheaper. I was merely using mine as an example of, after adding all that extra hardware, my system just then reached the current price plataeu of the iMac... and, as for 6-12 months hence, I re-evaluate the cost based on market conditions, know full well that building my system then was be cheaper (and, mostly likely, still around the iMac price).
But yes, I agree; the majority of the people will not be mucking around and building their own PC's. Just don't fail to neglect the cheaper PC's...
You know... I've never tried to crack any RC5 keys on my AMD system, but, if I remember correctly, that is FPU intensive, is it not (somebody let me know)? I have already stated that the current K6-2 and K6-III processors from AMD are lacking in the raw power of their FPU's, but, honestly, how many home users are going to crack RC5 keys? Very few; most want is for their WYSIWYG word processors and Internet preformance, and of their games. In these three areas, I have not seen a noticable difference in AMD's performance vs. P2 or G3 (assuming comparable speeds).
As for what my personal system can do... that would be interesting; I think I'll try it out to see just what can it do.
my fault... didn't mean to slight those pre-seventies... I guess the rapid growth didn't really start till mid-seventies as microprocessors were enhanced, and made feasible, so there will not be as many then, but you can't forget them (afterall, it was them and the like of Alan Turing who helped make this industry possible)...
Gotta agree with than... we had a power supply fry at work on our RS/6000 server(ok... its not a PC, but the point is the same). Blew both processors boards and the mainboard... all because two $.50 capacitors went out...
We also had a PC power supply go out, and after I replaced it, it turned out it took the motherboards and processor with it. So, spending the extra money on a good power supply is an excellent investment. You can get an Enlight case, with which I have been pleased with, for around $80 for the ATX form (I think it is $60 for the AT).
the PC would still be cheaper, though...
Apple would make a good bit of money if they offered the case for sale and use with PC's. Of course this would probably be counter productive on the profit end, but I know I would seriously consider one...
Err... well, actually the nickname came from the way I play Quake (re: like an old man), and yes, I suck (I am happy to get 10-12 frags in multiplayer).
But, as for the age bit, remember the first generation of computer programmers are either in or nearing their fifties (like my father, age 52, who has been a programmer since '71). He already gets senior citizen discounts (which really irks him). My mother, 52 almost 53, has just been introduced to Linux (Dad has worked with Unix systems for the past 15 years), and she is getting the hang of it rapidly. She understands the workings of the file system, has no trouble upgrading the packages (in Slackware, no less!), set up X windows, changed the X server (after swapping video cards), and then configuring the modem and ppp connection. On her own. Hmmm... guess we shouldn't underestimate the true elders of our society, eh? =)
I have built an AMD system, and the money saved on the processor alone allowed me to put in 128 MB ram rather than 64 (which is still more than the 32 everyone is touting). I do not have a lot of applications that tax the processor, but the memory usage sometimes is noticable (I only had 64 MB originally, and adding the other 64 MB has made a noticable difference). Yeah, I know, the AMD processor's FPU isn't as good... and that said, I really haven't seen a difference between my k6-2/350mhz and my friend's pII-350mhz on the same applications. As for significantly less, well, the cost of my 17" monitor, system (with a 3D card, sound, ethernet (10/100), 56K modem, 36x CD-ROM, 8.4 GB HD), and UPS was around $875 (with rebates, I think that there was an upfront cost of $980). I then added a 2x/2x/8x CD-RW the other day for around (after the rebate) $139. Now... show me the iMac (or G3) that does all of that for that price... or even near it...
As for the kiddies and Quake... maybe we should push id to develop Quake For Kids, feature levels contain their favorite television friends, like Barney, Sesame Street, Teletubbies, etc., and have them go around shooting foam pellets at them (so the kids won't get upset when Big Bird dies)... then, when they graduate to real Quake, they'll be ready to whup...
Dont forget to add $10 - $20 shipping on every item. Lo ball prices on Pricewatch also have the highest shipping costs, go to the website of the company and work through the shopping cart to get the real price.
.26DP, multiscan Trinitron, you're not going to get anything like that for $100.
Also consider that you will get no support on that system other than the individual component maker's web pages. Not what a consumer buyer wants to deal with, hardware hackers may not mind this lack of support.
PS, find a 10/100 card for $15 that has any sort of driver support... good luck, even used cards go for more than $15. Same for your $40 modem, that's a WinModem.. Feh..
IR pins may be on the MB, but the transceiver is not, its about $25.
$5 for a keyboard? maybe a used one.
Also the iMac has a 15"
Face it, for what you get, the iMac is the best deal for the market segment that would buy such a machine, no PC can touch it as an integrated, complete system.
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
Seems to me apple has continued to improve the iMac since the first release, and the price/performance ratio looks pretty good to me.
You should check out the new imacs that are supposed to come out in a couple of weeks. They are rumored to ship with 333Mhz/32Mb Ram/6gig Hd for about 1200 retail. This is a great deal b/c the G3 is about as fast as a 400-450Mhz pentium, it has built in eithernet so you can network your home computers, and 3d accelerated graphics so the kiddies can play their games. This is only a little more than a comperable Pc- infact I saw a 350/32/6 gig going for 999. Add a monitor to that and you have a computer that isn't as good as an imac but for the same price.
--------------------------------------
in a world without bounderies or fences, who needs Gates anyway?
The main problem with the iMac is that it uses a lot of Powerbook parts. The motherboard was orginally design for a computer-tv convergience device.
Apple is going to come out with 2nd Generation iMacs sometime this year. That will use more common parts and bring the price down.
MacOS Rumors seems to think a new bunch of iMacs are coming out soon w/ 333 Mhz processors. And their is another rumor of a black iMac with a 17" screen and DVD.
It's like comparing apples to oranges...oh wait, that's funny. I kill me.
Thank you for your clarification of G3. I was unaware of the designation for the iMac processor.
.26dp) 1000HS Trinitron® Monitor
I also want to say that the iMac is a brilliant machine. It is well marketed and capable of doing what it is intended to do.
Just please, apple zealots, do not argue hardware performance/price on this. The iMac just does not compare.
Here's a $1200 Dell:
Date:
Friday, April 09, 1999 12:05:20 PM CDT
Catalog Number:
04 19
Dell Dimension V Series:
Intel Celeron® processor, 333MHz MiniTower with
128KB L2 Cache
V33CSW - [220-4875]
Memory:
32MB SDRAM
32M - [311-0407]
Keyboard:
QuietKey® Keyboard
W - [310-7002]
Monitor:
17" (16.0" viewable,
10TM - [320-0037]
Video Card:
ATI 8MB 3D AGP Graphics
IV - [430-0590]
Hard Drive:
4.3GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
43 - [340-6607]
Floppy Drive:
1.44MB Floppy Drive
3 - [340-7982]
Operating System:
Microsoft® Windows® 98
W98 - [420-2083]
Mouse:
Logitech First Mouse+ Wheel (PS/2v)
LM - [310-0287][310-3180]
Network Card:
No Network Card
N - [430-0591]
Modem:
3Com® USRobotics V.90* PCI Telephony
WinModem for Sound
WSNDTEL - [412-0200][412-6890][313-3617]
DVD-ROM or CD-ROM Drive:
32X Max Variable CD-ROM Drive
CD32 - [313-6502]
Sound Card:
Yamaha XG 64V Wavetable Sound
IS - [313-0275]
Speakers:
harman/kardon HK-195 Speakers
HK195 - [313-0266]
Bundled Software:
Microsoft® Works Suite 99 with Money 99 Basic;
McAfee VirusScan
WORKS - [412-0114]
McAfee VirusScan 3.1 at no
additional charge:
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Now here's a $1200 iMac:
Processor:
PowerPC G3
Processor speed:
266 MHz
Amt. of RAM:
32MB
Hard disk:
6GB
CD-ROM drive
included?:
yes
Modem included?:
yes
Monitor:
15-inch
Software included:
AppleWorks, MS Outlook Express, Adobe
PageMill, EdView Internet Safety Kit: Family
Edition, FAXstf, Quicken Deluxe 98, Kai's
Photo Soap SE, World Book, Nanosaur,
Williams-Sonoma Guide to Good Cooking
Nuff said...
I don't think Dell is going to have any problem convering the cheapness of the iMac because the iMac's just aren't that cheap. I can go out and buy a similarly powered windows machine for half the price of a new iMac. Linix would be $50-100 cheaper...
You lost me there...what does the above configuration have to do with what we're talking about...unless of course you add a price...but I bought a K6-200 2 years ago (well, almost 2 years). Great chip...
I like the spread out comparison. An earlier post mentioned processor cache of Celeron v. G3. I'll give you that cache is important. Consider a similar Compaq or IBM with an AMD then? Cache would not be the issue, and price would be about the same...
First, iMac is NOT G3. The current shipping iMac has something like a 266Mhz processor and is selling for about $1000.
Second, to Genius Roy, thank you...
It's called monorail...
Honestly, I don't think any of us are qualified to judge one processor over the other. The only thing we have to base our opinions on are random readings from the trades. Unless you (and I'm not saying I have) have run the same benchmark software on the same chip under the same OS, there cannot be a straight out comparison.
My argument is that strict price/power comparison is not possible for apple to make between their machines and an intel/amd machine. They build too much "margin" into their price.
For a geek, it's just not worth the money. Maybe the kitzch, but not the money...
Try running your computer one day without one.
"I can build a...blah, blah, blah...
Well then, go build it. Why does is piss you off that not everyone wants to build their own PC? If you don't like the price/performance of the iMac, don't buy one! The iMac was designed to be a friendly computing appliance for people who interests lie other places than computing. Why does that threaten so many people around here. You don't like WebTV? We live in a purportedly free market economy so wote with your dollars, buy (I know, I know, you can build, blah, blah, blah) something else.
Sorry to vent it's just that slashdot hosts a lot of really intelligent discussion, unfortunately it's always diluted by teenage male posturing.
Please, grow up.
Better yet, don't. The thought of you reproducing creeps me out.
So, sub-moronic they're flying off the shelves.
Actually, the Macintosh XL (eXtra Large) was the Lisa reborn. The 128 was it's own beast and ran a different operating system. The 128 was smaller than the Lisa and the XL and had a smaller screen.
lol, interesting point...
"The world only exists in your eyes. You can make it as big or as small as you want." - F Scott Fitzgerald
OK, I was a bit too general there. However, I see supporting Java and OpenGL as merely trying to do what MS is not, like picking through the MS garbage heap to see what MS has pitched out.
- --------------
I disagree. OpenGL is there to appease John Cormack more than anything else. Java is there to just get up to speed and to get a few more apps available to Mac users.
My real question is this - what has Apple stolen from Microsoft?
Well, I see them stealing business sense from them. Jobs has come in as a messiah (=Gates), unleashed the iMac with known limitations (but "good enough"), and has released a next generation OS (MacOSX Server) before it's perfect so that the users can work out the bugs. They've also done things like Java and OpenGl in order to gain key players on their side. Jobs has hired super smart people to get the work done for him, and he's right on top of them. This is all classic Gates.
So, Apple may not have stolen Microsoft technology, but they have taken on Microsoft's attitude. (BTW, USB isn't exactly an Apple technology. But, Apple was the first to embrace it in an uncompromised position instead of along 17 other different ports.)
----------------------------------------
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In the wonderful world of cats, Mr. Fus
so it is just a piece of vaporware right now but usually when Dell says something, they usually do it. At least in my experience. When investors hear that Dell has the capability to do a iMac "Clone" (for the lack of a better word), the investors just see dollar signs. So plan for it to be on shelves by 99 or 00 xmas
RB/Shawn Pryde
Linux puts the "O" in "OS"
Thank you, I was just curious.
Am I the only one who thinks that the iMac is not "cute"? It is the worst looking computer I have seen since the 80's! I'm not saying all computers need to be cream colored towers but this thing is ugly. Besides that it just looks cheap, the keybord and the mouse look like children's toys to me. Ahh well, maybe DELL will do a better job.
Yes, at Comdex I saw a company that makes cases
using animal faces and bodies. SIGH!!! The Penguin
is quite possible.
Umm...Why would I need to worry about the 3D performance of the PPC G3 when they all ship with 3D accelerators? ATI RAGE 128 for the B&W's and an ATI RAGE Pro on the Imacs.
bmonroe
My cyrix 166, firewall, still uses a '90 Apple 15" Sony trinitron tube. It survived 2 Mac's. The monitor wont die before you want a new spiffy iMac.
And, they are replaceble.
Thanks to the little old ladies for paying for my bandwith, with there way to expensive accounts.
Pioneered by Apple? Am I the ony one on planet Earth that remembers the IBM PS/1? A lower-end Wintel PC with a one-piece design aimed at the casual home user. It was still boxy and beige, but then IBM was still kind of the boxy beige company. I took one look at the iMac and thought "PS/1 redux". You MacManiacs are so blinded by company loyalty that you don't recall even recent computer history sometimes.
And what's so wrong with generic hardware? I would much rather have a machine that I could maintain and get parts for down the road. I don't think I should have to replace my entire motherboard just to fix a bad video chip.
How about warranties? Apple has a 1 year warranty on most of their products. Dell has a 3 year warranty on all of its machines. Apple requires you to box the system up and ship it off to be repaired, even for something as trivial as a bad floppy drive. Dell sends someone out to fix it for you for the first year, then overnight parts for the next two years. You can even upgrade to a 3 year onsite warranty.
As for their design, its simple, it works, it keeps getting better. The new dells open up almost as easy as a g3. Push one button on the front and the side panel pops offs. Flip a lever, and the entire card chassis assembly comes out for the instillation of cards. It couldn't be much easier.
If dell can find users who want to buy an Idell, more power to them, but I really don't care what my machine looks like as long as it works and is maintainable. I'm not completely sure that the imac meets either one of those requirements.
You keep paying for your "ingenius" products, I'll keep buying something that can be maintained and configured to meet my needs.
This is exactly why apple made G# towers and iMacs. One for proffesionals one for consumers!
I'm not big Mac fan but the G3 case design
is sweet. Click a latch on the side of the
case and the whole motherboard panel drops
down (all connectors still intact) -- everything
is right there for easy picking, the hard drive,
RAM simms, adapters. Very nice case design.
They aren't due for 12-18 months. Vapor hardware is not news.
I didn't intend to come across as implying RC5 cracking was the be-all end-all of benchmarking. It's just one benchmark... a real one perhaps but not very important.
The industry DOES need an accepted *standard* for measuring CPU's. Intel doesn't seem interested in such a thing however.
To me, claiming MHz is EXACTLY the same as "claiming RMP" in a car. Better benchmarks are 0-60, quarter-mile, and the torque curve.
The SpecINT and fpINT, and BYTEmarks are only part of the picture.
That's a symptom of the "higher initial post" feature. If most of your posts get "bumped up", the system starts to make assumptions. My initial score "should" have been neutral (1), but because of prior posts it was 3 to START with.
One thing I DON'T like about this system is it will auto-subtract posters like MEEPT! who sometimes has some clever (or at least witty) postings that are no less on topic than everyone else. Sometimes...
At any clock speed, or just simply "close", the G3 MOPS THE FLOOR of *ANY* x86 CPU: Pentium 3, Pentium2, PentiumPro, Celleron, AMD, or Cyrix.
The Celleron DOES get decent floating point but only if you compare it to AMD or Cyrix. If you compare an Intel offering against the PowerPC 750 ("G3") or say an Alpha, you're simply not in the same ballpark.
Read up on it. This is one of the "less disputable" platform-characteristics. Floating Point on Intel sucks. Maya and SoftImage may exist on NT, but that's because of a number of pressures (including IT departments), but floating point is not one of them.
Oh, and you did this investigation, didja?
Harboring resentment towards women, especially educated ones, will get you nowhere in life unless you live in saf Afghanistan. Get a life -- maybe you won't grow up to be a stalker.
WAY KEWL pee-cee wEb pAge aRt d00d...
Diamond LX MB + 400 MHz Celeron A- $179
Maxtor 6.4GB Hard drive- $114
32MB RAM- $31
24x cdrom- $29
Diamond Viper 330 (Riva 128 3D)- $47
15" - $100
Case- $28
Total $528
Add in misc software and there is a $600 roughly equivalent system.
All prices are from pricewatch.com
There are competitors ... just without the "stylish" part. Browse your local Best Buy or whatever -- you'll find a quarter-of-a-dozen models of cheapie PC made by various vendors. Most of them are locked-down non-upgradeable machines, with a bunch of options stuck in already (sound, CDrom), and an inexpensive 15" monitor.
The iMac is just the next logical step in integrated systems like this.
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
the first generation of computer programmers are either in or nearing their fifties
Er, sonny (g), a bit older than that. My *mother* was a computer programmer at one time, and she's in her seventies. Remember, the first electronic computers were built in the 1940s, and were being bought up by businesses in the 1950s. COBOL and FORTRAN date back that far.
I don't know that my Mom would have any interesting in putting her own box together these days, but my father-in-law, also in his 70s, and never a professional programmer (though he's tinkered with them nearly forever - he's the guy that coined the word "bionics") certainly could.
-- Alastair
I knew this would happen. I'm surprised Dell is the company that did it.
:)
"Cuteness" can only sell a system for so long. Once people realize that iMacs weren't being built with the (in my mind) necessary baseline features for a system nowadays, someone else had to step in and do it better. Build a good-looking system that has a DVD drive, 128Mb RAM, 17" monitor. Want to make it extra special? Throw in SCSI and Firewire. Who needs internal peripherals anyway?
Sure, one can argue that the next iMacs have that (see www.macosrumors.com). Or that SGIs have done it for years. But it was only a matter of time before a major Wintel player entered the ring.
All along, I figured Compaq would be the company to do it. They've got enough market share and enough guaranteed consumer base (think of all the places that ONLY buy from compaq... companies, schools, etc). Compaq has the in-store audience, too, that Apple seems to be losing despite strong iMac sales. (Just this week, I was in contact with several Best Buys, CompUSAs, and office supply stores that sold out of all their iMacs in just a few days, but never even attempted to stock more.)
The problem with Compaq is the price premium, as always. You're paying more for stuff you don't get. But that's there because of their "guaranteed customer base." So businesses have been moving to Dell and the public have been moving to Gateway.
Sheesh, why didn't Gateway do this? They're the ones that have the home entertainment PC audience. Imagine a cow-colored PC. I would buy one of those in an instant.
Computers are getting so cheap that aesthetics DO matter. Powerful beige boxes just don't hack it anymore.
Nor do underpowered teal, green, pink, orange, or purple ones.
-Chris
(Of course, I'd love to buy an iMac and turn it into an iLinuxPPC)
I can guarantee that monitor isn't a tenth as good as the iMac's 15" multisync monitor. That right there is enough to throw off your price point.
And who makes that box? I trust Apple's hardware over some no-name computer company.
Don't forget about that cool case. Sure beats beige.
--
InstantCool
Once again, the wintel market steals another great idea pioneered by Apple.
--
InstantCool
The G3 isn't aimed at the "average user".
-Too big: It's how big it needs to be. If it were any smaller, you'd have grognards carping about the lack of internal expandability. If you want a small case, get an iMac or a powerbook.
-Security: If somebody can't be bothered to use a lock, they're not worried about security. Note that I have a key for just about every other computer on my person at all times...it's called a Phillips screwdriver.
-Upgradability: Users who don't want to upgrade buy iMacs. Users who DO want to upgrade buy PowerMac G3's.
You needn't have a tight case to have an elegant case. For those people (the PowerMac G3's target audience) who DO know their way around the inside of a computer, the easy accessibility is a boon.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Oh come on, Michael Dell. That statement just sounds so cynical. If all he's learned from the iMac is that a candy-colored one-piece computer can revive a flagging hardware company, he still doesn't get it at all. And he must think very little of consumers to think that iMacs succeeded with the public because they're "stylish."
The thing that cracks me up is that Dell isn't the first company to say this. After the iMac came out, a slew of PC makers (eMachines for one) and even Intel started pooh-poohing it, saying many of the same things that are being said on this discussion board. You know, not enough options, where's the floppy?, underpowered, overpriced, hard to expand, blah blah blah. And I remember a couple of companies slapping together prototype lookalikes and saying they could sell the same thing for $600 or whatever.
But the proof is in the pudding, and almost a year later, nobody's actually brought forth a competitor. Even Dell is, what, over a year away? And I don't think they'll ever be able to. The first iMac-style PC will be an embarrassment: you'll have to wade through a thousand options before you even buy it (processor, ram, video card, sound card, etc.), it'll have PCI and ISA slots, serial ports, external speakers, and forty-five minutes of "registration and personalization" when you turn the computer on, like any Windows PC you buy these days. PC makers just won't be able to make the tough sacrifices that Apple did when they designed the iMac.
The iMac succeeded because most people don't have the interest, patience or knowledge to seek out, configure and maintain the absolute top-of-the-line computer. Most people just want to run Office, IE, Outlook and a couple of games. And for that stuff, a 450 MHz Pentium versus a 266 MHz G3 just does not provide much extra benefit. USB is a great consumer interface -- it's so easy -- and Apple was right to force everyone to use it. And, to be honest, I think Apple sells a lot of iMacs because techy people like us know that we can tell our mothers, girlfriends and co-workers to buy them for home, spend at best an hour helping them set up, and never have to think about it again.
The pretty boxes sure got a lot of attention at the beginning, but I think they could start making beige iMacs at this point and they'd sell just as well. Listen to the testimonials and you'll hear that people in general are very pleased with their computers.
At work I have 2 computers: an Intergraph for SynaFlex and a Dell Dimension for "email and Microsoft office". You don't want rampant Microsoft virii running loose on a production machine, see... ;-)
Anyways, last time I priced a Dell Dimension v333c it came out to $2300! Never mind that the G3 is faster than a Pentium3... this Dell is a CELERON! The G3 is faster than the Celleron by *QUITE* a noticable margin.
For THAT price I could get a G3 WITH MONITOR, same memory and a BETTER video card. Dell vs. Apple is a much better comparison than say Apple vs. eMachines
My PowerPC G3 @ 300 MHz cracks 970,000 - 1,010,000 keys per second... very comperable to a 450 MHz Pentium2. I haven't SEEN an AMD CPU that comes even CLOSE to that!
If you want to be fair, base the AMD against the discontinued G3's that are less than 300 MHz... or maybe a discontinued 604e 200MHz system which can be had *very* cheap these days (and run not just Linux but also BeOS, for whatever that is worth..)
So it can be upgraded. The lack of currently available upgrades does not prove otherwise.. the market is very young and there's just no demand, yet.
Also, because they are built using PowerPC CPU's, the iMacs are very tolerant of overclocking.
As soon as I have had my G3 PowerMac for a full 60 days I will overclock it from 300 to 350, or 400 if it's stable.
The new IBM copper-process PowerPC CPU's can be taken from their "rated" 400 MHz up to the current record of a stable 560MHz... and they DO NOT OVERHEAT. the limiting factor is usually the 100 MHz speed RAM, or the cache.
What does the IPX in Sun IPX mean? Is is a reference to a (corporate) Novell network?
I like the Pizza Box case idea that Sun (and Apple) used to have. Pick your monitor, sound, network, video, and SCSI on the motherboard suits most people fine.
I've work at places that buy standard size but have a Technician-Shall-Not-Open-The-Case policy. The labor costs of upgrading an existing box apparently are much more expensive than just buying a new one.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
The all-in-one PC is hardly a new idea. Even excepting the original Mac, Apple has had (non-colored) all-in-one models for 10 years.
Compaq has made all-in-one presarios, as well as a model that included a flat panel display. Others have followed.
The iMac is interesting because it's the first time this case style has gotten out of the educational market ghetto.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
"May you live in interesting times"
-random Chinese proverb, probably Confucian =)
So Apple set a trend and benchmark; consumers are at least as fashion conscious as power conscious. iMac flavors, design, and cuteness sells.
Why not? Notice the VW neoBeetle, for example!
However, I note several problems and have several thoughts.
A lot of people bash the iMac for cost, noting quite accurately that one could build a similarly powered system for half the price, without realizing that one would need to be knowledgable enought to build and maintain said computer. Call it a stupidity tax if you want, but that cost can be justified by the simpleness and attempt at being plug and play.
It's not as if a comparable Dell or Gateway costs $600 dollars right now. Is it me? With 6GB HD, 32MB memory, 32x CDROM(and floppy of course), and 15" monitor, the price is (gasp!) $1,018, not that far off from the iMac's $1,199 price, plus the fact you get to chose a color.
My guess is if Dell goes for the future consumer PC with larger monitor and such, Apple will beat it to the punch(12-18 months? Why so long for a PC maker the size of Dell?), with faster processors, better video cards, and larger monitors.
In a year I'd expect Apple's iMac to come with a nice quality 17" monitor, at least a 450MHz CPU, 64mb of memory, an ATI Rage Fury 32mb adaptor(about the same as a current TNT, not the Fury Pro), at least 6GB of HD space, perhaps ISDN or whatever revolutionary internet connectivity standard is hot, and separate speakers with 3d sound capability.
Assuming Apple doesn't make another blunder somewhere.
The PC market is still not offering anything cheaper than an iMac with it's functionality, performance, or style.
You can build your own, but that isn't the point.
Dell probably isn't the only one, just the first/only one to publicly announce it.
I also think that Apple's future device will drop below $1,000 dollars, and if bundled with MacOSX, will beat hands down Windows98, assuming it has all the standard features that Win98 and MacOS8.6 currently has. Windows will be on SR2 or whatever, with Win2k being to big and bloated for home use, and Win2k Personal won't be available yet.
I really think Apple is on the ball here.
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
The design/layout of PCs are a natural result of how they have been used. Separate discrete components allow for flexibility in configuration and upgrading. I just bought a new system mere weeks ago (Dell btw.) and I have already added components to it that I wanted. But I didn't purchase it in 'consumer' mode, thus what _I_ want in a system is not what a non-computer person would want.
For computers to become a ubiquitous device it needs to be in a form factor that consumers are familiar with. Most people do purchase TVs, with the intention of upgrading the speakers or the tuner, nor do they purchase microwave ovens with based on whether or not they can upgrade the turtable significantly later. What drives purchases in the consumer market are:
1) Ease of use - Can I plug it in and use it?
2) Features/capabilities built in - I'll choose the model that has the features I want built in!
3) Price - Can I afford it?
By making a computer a consumer device, Dell (or any manufacturer for that matter) has an incredible opportunity to make the killer consumer device. Imagine, what if in a form factor similar to an IMac there was a device that has the following capabilities:
17" monitor/touchscreen
64mb Ram, upgradeable via small removable panel on side.
4gb drive
DVD Drive
SVideo Out
TV Tuner capabilities
Integrated Sound w. Speakers plus AC3 and the usual audio inputs/outputs in back, headphone jack in front
2+ USB ports, make KB & mouse use USB
Port for home automation
10Mbit Network Card
56K modem
Joystick port in front
What does this device do? Replaces many consumer electronic entertainment devices...
Want to watch a DVD movie? Pop it in and watch on monitor, or connect it to TV...
Want to Manage Checkbook? Click/touch the checkbook icon...
Want to play a game? No problem, plug gamepad in front of unit and run the game...
Want to surf? Fire it up...
Heck, with a big enuf HD (or one reserved for that) you could even replace your VCR....
I'm not saying these specs are what should be done, instead they represent what could be done. A device that replaces or can control so many components would be successful in the consumer market.
e to the i pi equals negative one