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Visit the Agenda page. Now click on the "BUY IT!" button. You will see that the VR3 retailing for $250.00. Another note at the bottoms warns you "available after June 1, 2001".

So, is Softfield doing their own thing with this? Or has Agenda kicked the bucket and forgotten to update their web page?

[QVC GUY]: How can the savings be THIS PHENOMENAL?? how can Softfield undercut Agenda by nearly ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS??

Anyone know?

I asked the same thing of the Yopy and and Agenda people, with exactly the same response... none.

Their loss, not mine.

It's not that these tools don't exist, it's that the vendors don't see the target market clearly enough to want to use them.

Are Agenda out of business? I just went to the Agenda Computing site, and it's still up. Bummer--I was hoping to get one of those to play with, and have for awhile.

I think this litle toy is gona change things. If you compare with some early linux pda:s like Agenda V3 this litle toy will destroy cred. win-ce based pda:s.

NICE!!!

Haven't tried this thing yet, but do remember getting my paws on an Agenda a while back - it was pretty neat, especially watching it boot up - made you feel right at home. Ate batteries like it was it's job though (which I guess it kinda was)

Anyway, I don't use PDAs since I took my Visor sailing with me - doh! (WON the sucker from Handspring too, easy come, easy go I guess)

No, Linux is originally Linus's terminal emulator project. Then it was a replacement for Minix, a free Unix operating system that people could run on widely available, inexpensive desktop hardware. And in that role, it was primarily used first as a desktop box; only later (think post 1.0) were people starting to deploy it widely as a server platform.

Also, some Linux platforms run XIP. It's fairly easy to make the kernel itself run in place on linear ROM; just a few linker script tweaks. The Linux VR kernel also supports XIP for chosen exectuables and shared libraries, thanks to Rob Leslie's work on XIP for cramfs. On a file by file basis, you get a choice between uncompressed execute-from-ROM via MMU, or cramfs's block-by-block compression for executables you don't expect to be paged in as much.

Yes, Unix systems tend to think of the world in terms of files. But for specific, chosen access styles, under the hood the files can be accessed just as efficiently as a fileless PalmDB scheme. Unix gives you a choice of how to do it, and you're not stuck with it; you can still read() and write() to files you're usually treating as memory-mapped databases. (With whatever synchronization you deem necessary; PalmOS doesn't have concurrent access synchronization problems because it, like DOS, only supports one program running at a time.)

Actually, WinCE has support for XIP as well, but I don't know enough about it to post anything authoritative.

Sure, a company could take the Linux kernel and tools and write a Palm-esque interface for it, and rewrite the guts enough to be naturally resource-based XIP.

Like this?

And every company is going to have their own "redux Tux", which means you won't be able to generate a single executable file that you can throw on any device, the way you can with a Palm.

In other words, desktop Linux people should give up because a) you can't just throw a Windows or Mac executable on any machine and expect it to work. In fact, Apple should give up as well.

Nah. Diversity is a good thing. It's what got Linux here. It's what got *BSD here. We wouldn't have Gnome or KDE if they hadn't decided to dump Motif and Athena.

• Symbol Technologies licenses the Palm and creates several units which can do RF, 802.11, and include a barcode scanner (high-output LED)
• Handspring invents the Springboard slot and implements pseudo-USB support for connecting the devices.
• Sony mimics that with the MemoryStick, but adds VFS support, and takes Handspring's USB protocol, changes one function, and makes their own spin on it.
• Handera, formerly TRG builds upon that with a sliding graffiti area (thanks for incorporating my idea from #palmchat back in 1998 on that one), and adds CF and SD slot architectures (still serially connected storage though, can't "run apps" from each card concurrently)
• Palm comes out with the replacement to the Vx, called the m505, and includes the Sony VFS extensions, the Handspring hardware port design (internally) and the Handspring USB modifications, but changes it enough to make yet a third fork of this pseudo-USB protocol. They also make sure to make every single thing about this new device completely incompatible with every single other thing available for their devices, even down to a 2mm change in the stylus length (I have a more detailed enumeration of those changes found here).

Why does Palm think they're about to, in any way, create a new hardware device that they think will surpass these existing innovative devices? Palm is ALWAYS behind the curve on hardware advances in this area. We're not even talking about comparing them to the iPAQ, VTech Helio, Agenda, Yopy, and the other dozens of non-PalmOS, non-WinCE handheld PDA devices.

Currently, Palm's OEMs for the PalmOS® software include:

• Sony
• Handspring
• Handera (formerly TRG)
• Qualcomm (bought out by Kyocera)
• Kyocera
• Symbol Technologies
• ...and others.

They get licensing from each and every one of these OEMs. Their hardware is the last thing to ever be updated. It is without a doubt, the least innovative portion of their business.. and they're choosing to keep it?!

I don't quite understand the motive behind this decision on their part. I suppose I'll find out at Palmsource in February.

I ran around running my Linux cross-compile benchmark on a bunch of Sparcs. The 1G RAM, 440MHz Ultra 10 checked in with performance that was strictly worse than the 320M 450MHz iMac DV+. The 500MHz Blade 100 was around 10% better. Now, these figures are probably a tad low; I realized after the fact I was using an SMP-enabled kernel, and that adds overhead even on a single-processor machine. So credit them with another 10% until I get publish-worthy numbers. The Sparcs are still crushed by the 733MHz P3 el-cheapo Dell Optiplex, and the (badly-configured) Athlon 1200 has nothing to fear.

The Blade 1000 is a different beast. It's a real workstation, with 8M caches---can't get that in the beige box x86 world, and there are a lot of workloads that are just screaming for it. I don't have numbers yet, but I expect they'll be much more competitive. Of course, for $15-20k for a dual processor box, they'd better be.

So why buy a Blade 100?

1. Binary compatibility with bigger machines. If you think your app is going to have to scale up to mainframe size, you won't have to recompile your system to take it there.
2. Commercial software compatibility. No Purify for Linux, for instance. Or maybe you already bought big-ticket software like RealServer, or a GIS.
3. Compatibility with collaborators. In some communities (especially research), Solaris on SPARC is a very common environment.
4. 64 bits. The Blade 100 is the cheapest 64-bit PC in the world. Some people need to develop for a 64-bit world. (It's not the cheapest 64-bit Linux hardware; although current kernels don't support it, the Agenda VR3 hardware is a full 64-bit MIPS implementation.)

By the way, newer kernels improved the Mac performance substantially, and SMP provided around a 60% speedup on the tests on the dual 533MHz PPC. I think I know where to borrow a dual 800MHz PowerMac, which should finally beat the crap out of the Athlon 1200. Of course, now I'm curious about dual Athlon performance, but I dunno if I really need a new machine just to run some benchmarks...

I haven't played with it myself, but 'miniRuby' is available for the AgendaVR3 PDA (which also runs Linux).

Then again, NetHack and Apache are available on the Agenda, too. ;)

Sharp looks like it is actually trying to be a bit innovative with a PDA, unlike many manufacturers. First of all, the reflective TFT color display is good choice - consumers and business users seem to have this desire for color (I personally own a Visor Platinum with a grayscale screen, I love the battery life).

I don't really see what Java and Linux bring to a handheld device. Development isn't that difficult for the Palm OS, even Pocket PC, which have each picked a niche in the handheld market (the Palm OS for basic PIM functions with lots of little add-on software, Pocket PC for built-in support of Office documents and multimedia). I have spent some time thinking about it, and the advantages of Linux (multitasking, different processor support, open source) don't seem as important in the handheld market. At least not yet. If Palm OS and the Pocket PC platforms weren't mature, I would definately think that using Linux would be a much better choice. Unfortunately, it is still quite immature, as one can quickly tell from reading through the Linux development mailing lists of the Agenda. Not to say it isn't useful, but on the same hardware it seems to be slower than the Palm equivalents, from the reports I have read.

Moving on, the choice of compact flash and lithium ion battery was very wise. Better than a proprietary expansion slot, in my opinion, but somewhat more limited. Handspring's sprinboards are capable of doing so much more than memory expansion and modem/ethernet devices - like a remote module, GPS, cell phone, wireless internet, etc. I am not sure how many of these things the compact flash design on this palmtop could support - with something sticking out the top. Seeing as this has a 206 Mhz processor and a color screen, the good rechargable battery will be quite needed. It would be nice if these are easily removable, so that those who don't get a chance to charge for quite some time will be able to pop in a second battery.

The sliding keyboard seems nice, but obviously useful mostly for "thumb-typing". Handspring just announced a clip-on sort of keyboard for their devices that does a similar thing - SnapNType. One thing that I wonder about this Sharp device - will it support handwriting recognition? The site claims the color screen has "touch panel support". Handwriting recognition is fairly difficult to code, as the Agenda creators have found. Grafiti is nice, especially for those that have learned it, but there is some sort of licensing with it.

All in all, this looks like a promising Linux handheld. They learned from the Agenda's mistakes, by including USB connectivity, a rechargable battery, and compact flash slot. With all these features it will definately be in the price range of the already-mature color Compaq's, which means a limited consumer base. I look forward to hearing how well the developer models work.

If you want Linux on a PDA, why not buy a Linux PDA? The Agenda VR is a decent, very compact Linux PDA, and there are several others. And HP has announced a Jornada based on Linux.

If you looking for alternative pda that runs linux then check agendacomputing.com. they have sweet little pda using strong arm processor. it runs X. porting apps is a snap, all it needs is recompile. it little more price but it offers more features.

..if you want a real Linux PDA, the Agenda VR3 is the way to go. It's designed from the ground up for Linux, and 100% open-source.

I just recieved mine a few days ago because I thought it would be a cool toy, not expecting it to to useful as a PDA. Fortunately it is useful for both, however. If you've read negative reviews of the VR3 indicating otherwise, keep in mind that the system has improved greatly since the initial release.

A few good and bad points to keep in mind if you're thinking of getting one:

The good:

• Small form-factor and lightweight (About the size and weight of a Palm V series PDA)
• All software is open-source and upgradable (kernel, base system, included apps, etc)
• Regular free updates from Agenda Computing
• Active development community
• Easy to use (knowledge of Linux not required)

The bad:

• Short battery life (uses 2 AAA's that last about 2 weeks under normal use)
• Only 3.5 Megs of read-write user space (the 10 MB system rootdisk can be customized, however)
• Sync software for Windows users not very mature (just released recently)

-Karl

Altogether, I'd stay away. If you want a nice, functional Linux PDA, take a look at the Agenda. HP also will be coming out with a real Linux PDA.

This is not all that new, but I didn't see it here yet so... Agenda Computing has fired its CEO, Bradley LaRonde for unspecified reasons. For those who don't know, Mr. LaRonde was directly responsible for the first linux-from-scratch PDA, the Agenda VR3 as well as Linux-VR which is at the heart of the VR3. He still continues to develop for the platform AFAIK, but wasn't ever told why he was fired. Sad news for the linux PDA community.

The future, however, belongs to devices like the agenda. Why bother with a big old box?

Heh. You have no idea what you're talking about, but you're calling names left and right. Typical, I might say. You're making the gross mistake of trying to put current Linux distributions on par with win95, which is 5 years old. It won't work. Those of us who ran Linux even before Win95 came out remember the Slackware distro (which was pretty much the only game in town) that took a few days to set up for someone new to Linux, but it ran X windows and Apache just fine on a 486 w/ 8MB RAM. That is what someone who is not completely clueless would compare win95 with. Or you can try putting the latest Win2k Service Pack 13248.832 on a 486, see if that does you any good (since Microsoft has stopped selling and supporting Windiws 95 a long time ago, so you're not really supposed to use it anymore). OR, if you're still bitching, I could point you at a current Linux distro that runs just fine on a MIPS/66MHz w/ 8M RAM and 16M flash, X Windows and all.

So am I being hypocritical? Nah, not really. Linux has many faces other than your standard hand-holding, pretty-looking newbie-ready Mandrake/Redhat/SuSe/whatever. Am I being an asshole? Of course. Elitist? You betcha. And not only technologically. Socially as well. And your problem is?

There is a Linux Based PDA.

It's called Agenda

Now we have agenda (Linux powered) and dont need to suport eather of these(lets-take-money-for-everything-OS:es). Hmmm.... isn't that better.

The goal is to increase the power of the CPU while simultaneously reducing power consumption. The ARM technology is lean and mean and fits that bill perfectly. It's a very impressive technology; my little NetWinder flies. Who needs an old bloated, power hog like the x86 or clunky code morphing like the Crusoe?

With this move, Palm technology will get a big shot in the ARM. How long before Palm adopts ARM Linux as an API base? With an existing hardware platform and months head start the Agenda VR3 is looking sweet right now.

Agenda VR3 is getting better every day. Soon it will play MP3s... hopefully, and I can already play a mean game of Solitare while I travel... and it does the regular stuff like contacts, email, etc... and soon it will have ethernet. Go Buy One and write some more apps for it....:)

Well, I have an Agenda with a 66Mhz MIPS processor. Running Linux on a DragonBall might be a tad slow, IMHO. Berowne.

That's not to say that an 800k libc on x86 isn't big. It gets even bigger on more RISCy platforms like MIPS. The Agenda people are sticking with a patched glibc-1.0.3 until they can decide how to rationally compile out features.

In my opinion (which is not so humble after a lot of embedded Linux hacking), Linux is defined as not just a kernel, but also by libc. I can live with all kinds of wacky new kernel features as long as the C library uses and hides them from me. But changes, even bug fixes, to libc can break code in all kinds of unexpected places. Remember when Netscape needed a very specific libc version in order to cope with netscape's, uh, issues?

The people who work on glibc deserve a lot more respect and visibility.

If you want an out of the box PDA to do truly PDA like things, get a Palm. Palm's are simple machines with simple OS's that have long battery life and are hard to beat for that task.

If you want to carry Windows around in your pocket get a WinCE machine. You won't get the battery life but you get Windows!

If you want to have a Linux PDA, or in my case want a POSIX compatible PDA to run your own programs on, then either go with the Agenda VR3 or check out Handhelds.org on how to build your own on an iPaq. I don't like Yopy either because of the choice of W over X. Keep in mind that you are not going to get the battery life, but you can run far more complicated programs than you can on a Palm.

Just choose the right tool for your needs.

I love my Agenda (www.agendacomputing.com) it's 100% pure linux, no it don't have the flashy mpeg player like the ipaq, or the ability to carry around 9000hours of mp3's or whatever... but as a linux PDA it does the job and does it well. (it is also significantly cheaper than the ipaq)

If you want flashy, and be able to watch your divix films on your palm, get an ipaq.

otherwise spend the same money and buy 2 agenda vr3's

Insightful indeed, but if money is such a consideration, why the hell wouldn't Agenda top your list? It costs way less than the Yopy or IPaq, and has a very active and geeky community:

linux-pda.org (Agenda slashsite)

subscribe to the mailing lists (between the user and developer lists there's 100 or more messages a day)

Agenda help page outstanding reference and starting point

Insightful indeed, but if money is such a consideration, why the hell wouldn't Agenda top your list? It costs way less than the Yopy or IPaq, and has a very active and geeky community:

linux-pda.org (Agenda slashsite)

subscribe to the mailing lists (between the user and developer lists there's 100 or more messages a day)

Agenda help page outstanding reference and starting point

I'm a poor student

Dears, have you got your answer so far? Don't just ask the question, how about contribute to the society by giving us a detail comparison on the following Linux PDAs for us?

4P DAT500 rugged handheld
Agenda VR3
HNT Exilien 00101/00201 Handheld PC and HNT Exilien 00102 Multimedia PDA
MiTAC CAT
Yopy
SK Telecom IMT2000 WebPhone
VTech Helio

My boss told me to do so but I am just a poor employee and can't afford to make a mistake here. Thanks.
&nbsp_
/. / &nbsp&nbsp |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!

I've recently found my Agenda to be very usable after all the work that's gone on. You can get a pretty good deal with the developer model as well. See http://www.agendacomputing.com/ for the mostly finished site. See http://developer.agendacomputing.com/ for the developer deal, and see http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~acedil1/agenda/ for more information about the community supporting it.

I've recently found my Agenda to be very usable after all the work that's gone on. You can get a pretty good deal with the developer model as well. See http://www.agendacomputing.com/ for the mostly finished site. See http://developer.agendacomputing.com/ for the developer deal, and see http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~acedil1/agenda/ for more information about the community supporting it.

A guy on the Agenda VR mailing list is working on solar power for the Agenda. And Apache has been ported to the Agenda.

For instance, Shane Nay and I implemented old-style Linux a.out shared libraries because of significant overhead in MIPS PIC code. There's no dynamic linking, but boy does it run faster. Some people are playing with dynamic-linking applications into a common base executable. And so on. Maybe these things seem silly on a desktop box, but this kind of embedded environment is clearly not a desktop box....

Exactly. And I recall making this comment which still stands with this article, and any others promising that I can run Linux on my watch, PDA, car stereo, toaster, etc. I'm not knocking the wholesome goodness that is Linux, I just don't feel the need to run it on every electronic device I own.

As long as there is nothing that replaces the network transparence of X, it is not going to be replaced! Even the Linux-PDA from agenda computing decided to put X in that tiny machine. Once you have made a TCP/IP connection via PPP from your Linux desktop, you can remotely display the agenda's X-window apps on your host computer, which is very cool and useful. Sending the whole screen bitmaps (a la laplink type of software for Windows) would be way too slow and would not take advantage of larger display size and resolution of your desktop. X-window does such things transparently.

I'm convinced that X-window will even be in embedded devices. There is no need for embedded Qt.

Please read the following carefully. The terms and conditions in this section constitute the entire agreement between Agenda Computing Inc. and you (the "Customer") for the sale of products by Agenda Computing Inc. to you. By accepting delivery of products, you agree to be bound by These Terms And Conditions of Sale.

Orders; Payment; No Resale
Orders are subject to acceptance by Agenda Computing Inc. Payment must be received prior to Agenda Computing Inc.'s acceptance of an order and must be made by credit card or other prearranged payment method. Customer shall pay interest on all past-due sums at the highest rate allowed by law. Customer shall not resell any Agenda Computing Inc. products.

Gosh, that last line is sure in the spirit of the GPL and the Linux community, eh? Guess I shouldn't bother to look for these on eBay.

aqua writes "Two days after the announced ship date, Agenda Computing has sent mail to customers who preordered a VR3 PDA: "In keeping with our commitment to deliver the highest quality PDA possible - one that provides you with many years of enjoyment - Agenda has removed Linux and installed PalmOS3.5."

aqua writes "Two days after the announced ship date, Agenda Computing has sent mail to customers who preordered a VR3 PDA: "In keeping with our commitment to deliver the highest quality PDA possible - one that provides you with many years of enjoyment - Agenda has removed Linux and installed PalmOS3.5."

See their CVS

I admit that Agenda Computing has not made it very clear that they have developed the Linux sync software. In fact they did not develop any Windows sync software. They contracted it out to another company as one of their employees said on the developer list:

We have contracted out the windows portion of syncing the VR3. They are writing the software to sync the VR3 with Outlook, Outlook Express, Scheduler +, Lotus Notes, Lotus Organizer, Acts, Goldmines, Palm desktop. It is not finished yet, but I'm sure a message will go out to the list when it is ready.

Agenda's Palm Clone

Sharp

PalmPalm's Phone PDA

VTech's Updated Version

Samsung's Yopy

Lernout & Hauspie's version with Speech Recognition
maybe more?

At this rate, I might as well develop one.

• With our QuickSync Cradle and software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or
• Linux PC. You can also send & receive email and connect to internet.

These plans are always sketchy, but I'd love to see a Linux PDA.

*AHEM*
--

A linux-based PDA, you say?
--

Am I the only one completely turned off by the high ($400-$600) price target if and when it's released? I'd rather pay half the price for the Agenda even at a sacrifice of those features. Besides, the specs look a whole lot like the Compaq Ipaq, which runs the Evil Handheld OS (and Linux nicely enough). The thing is, the Compaq is available now, and is in the same price category.

More important to pretty full-color screens and digital camera add-ons are long battery life, quick and easy PIM applications, and excellent handwriting recognition. The Palm and Visor have this, and until WinCE devices and Linux devices do, they'll fail.

Here you can find all the information you need to hack your VR3:

http://developer.agendacomputing.com/

One design flaw (IMHO) is that all of the user applications on the machine are written in C++, due to the embedded design of the software.. C may have reduced the footprint required to "push" the applications, but that is my opinion..you don't have to agree :)

The graphics toolkit (C++) they are using is very cross platform, perhaps they decided to use it incase they would later decide to move to WinCE?? It is called FLTK. The machine itself runs XFree86, so all of your existing X11 applications should run fine; although the screensize may be a little limiting.

This platform just needs optimizations, they are using very open technologies and opened it up to developers, infact.. most of the software is already on most linux machines!

As far as the WindowManager is concerned, it is FLWM.. of course based on this high-level graphics library. For speed's sake, there are definately much "lighter" windowmanagers out there! A modification of RatPoison or ION would be perfect for this device, much cleaner.. faster..

It shouldn't take much to make this a much faster machine, just remove all the applications shipped with it! :) Theys guys didn't really know what they were doing on the speed-side but they did make a good peice of hardware.

If I get the money, i'm buying one!

Bit longer answer... Yes, you get source...you can browse the CVS tree from the developer site. There are FAQs on building apps...heck, as sold, it's X! The cross-compiler tools are readily available at the Linux VR site. Another good Agenda development site is here.

Potential?? TONS. X is pretty heavy on the thing...so I'm probably not gonna use it! I'm working on setting up a rootdisk with Microwindows, an OSS windowing environment that's a lot lighter-weight than X. Still in development, but I think there's a lot of promise there. If you can still get into the Developer's Program rates, you can get an Agenda for $179. (I got one for that price two weeks ago). As a hacker, you Cannot Beat That. It's awesome...I'm running a full-fledged Linux box in my hand, and I have total control, source, development tools, etc. It may not be ready for the Masses yet...but we aren't exactly the Masses now, are we?? *grin*

According to This Agenda page, the Agenda weighs 4 oz without batteries. The weight of 2 AA batteries can vary depending on the type of battery one is using.

Yes, the reviewer should have gotten out an accurate scale and measured exactly how heavy it was, and then gotten a second scale and verified it - but we can't have everything.

Here is an FAQ from the Agenda Developer Zone. Among other things, they mention that the batteries last about a month, which is what I was really wondering. :-)
--
Patrick Doyle

Seconded! I got mine less than two weeks ago, updated it, and now use it daily. That help page is excellent; there are some other great resourced linked from http://developer.agendacomputing.com.

Perfect? No. Usable? Yes. Bugs getting fixed? Yes. Inspiring some hacking? Yes, I want to port a rhyming dictionary (probably have to store the data zipped and use zlib, or something).

Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

Don't expect to get your open-source-powered Fridge anytime soon.

That's alright. I've already got my Linux-based PDA... See?

Check out Agenda Computing's new pda, the Agenda VR3.
It has a 66Mhz MIPS chip and it runs on Linux VR.

--