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Agenda Linux PDA Finally Out
MacauMan writes "Finally, after six months delay, Agenda Computing has just
released the Agenda
VR3, which, if I'm not mistaken, is now the world's first
PDA that ships with a Linux OS. It sports a 66MHz MIPS processor and comes with 8MB
RAM and 16MB flash memory. It looks like a nice little box, and at
$249 the price is right. I just hope they sorted out all those little
problems they had with the developer model..." The folks at Agenda shipped me a review model and I'll try to have a report soon. So far I have mixed feelings: the UI isn't as smooth as a Palm or Wince system, but you can get a terminal, so its the only system where I can use ps and kill.
can it run copilot?
Palm resolution 160x160. Windows CE resolution is 240x320
Well, all the applications are in CVS and GPL so people like Ximian can integrate support for common formats into their new products as well. The released unit is a DEVELOPER model, not the finished product. Looks like the Linux Symposium has 20 of these as part of their early-registration draw as well at http://www.linuxsymposium.org/draw.php
I can see it now. "X isn't bloated! How else do you remotely access Atari 800 games from your cradled handheld?" Everyone will be convinced.
Hi,
My wife suggested this would be great for sys admins-- can hook up to any server or cluster box that doesn't have a monitor, to do diagnostic stuff.
Whee! Maybe I can persuade my advisor to buy me one for the 64-machine Beowulf he just got working.
Sandy
sandy@rpg.net
Is it just me or does this thing not include a browser. I looked hard but I didn't see one. What gives?
I hit Kuro5hin a lot (hell, I designed the moderation system), though I agree with you on story content -- K5 got grabbed by a bunch of HS/College PoliSci types. I think it's getting a bit better than it had been for a while, but the article focus is way off. Submission system needs a lot of work.
There's a community that gelled over at the old InfoWorld Electric forums (mostly under Nick Petreley's columns) which now hangs at IWETHEY. The group's getting a little long in the tooth, but still is good for a read on stuff. Looking for a new home though -- EZBoard's forum SW basically stinks.
I do a lot of email -- mostly Debian lists, a few discussions of other topics. Many forums seem to be quieting down though as people ride out the downturn. Definitely interesting times.
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Someone said kuro5shin, which is probably true for some people. I'm not too interested in the focus over there, however. Too much discussion of politics, religion, and sex. :)
Really, though, Slashdot was neat because for a time because more often than you would expect, the people doing the neat things you read about in the articles would be posting in the comments as well. That's not so common anymore.
In addition to it just being cool (which it is), it's very valuable. Think of all the tools you've got available. The entire set of GNU utilities, compilers, etc. All the libraries already written for Linux. You don't need to completely reinvent the wheel. Stuff like Qt/Embedded is already there, too. If you can build the box, stick Linux on it, you've got a huge amount of work you'd have to do already done.
You may not realize it, but there's usually a lot of behind-the-scenes development work required for developing things. If you have to rewrite everything, the OS, the compiler, the interface, that's work. Then imagine you're developer: now you have to relearn new API's, get acquainted with new tools, etc. Not to mention the fact that the OS and other source probably won't be available if it's proprietary, which means if you run into problems (which is highly likely on a new platform), you have no recourse.
With Linux on things, you already know what you're working with. You're familiar with it. You've developed for it before. If you've done development for desktop apps, embedded apps aren't going to be too big of a stretch (you'll learn some new API's probably), but you've got your development environment already figured out and ready to go. Build a cross-compiling gcc and you're set.
If you're a commercial vendor producing the latest-and-greatest PDA, not having to convince developers to relearn all your whizbang (or less-than-whizbang) tools is a major market advantage. And, users (in theory) can run all the stuff that's already available for other Linux PDA's, because it should be a fairly straightforward recompile (given you're using something portable like Qt/Embedded).
Sure, opening an xterm on a PDA and having bash there is neat, but there really are "practical" advantages, too.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
$249 is pretty average for handhelds (a bit more than an average Palm-type, less than an average Wince-type handheld. If you're waiting for PDAs to get down to the sub $100 price point, you might want to start looking around for old used Palm IIIs.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
Rob's torn between a bad interface and his neverending bias for Linux? I don't see much here to debate. If it's not as slick as the palm or WinCE or whatever, well, end of story. It's not as easy to use.
If I put a linux sticker on a block of wood, would you buy it?
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
I noticed in the developer FAQ that the Agenda uses its Flash ROM as a disk storage device, with RAM being used only for execution space. Given that Flash ROM deteriorates if rewritten too many times, I'm not sure if that's such a good idea.
How are you networking with that?
The Doctor What (KF6VNC)
It already runs X. Developers have been exporting
the display to their desktop terminals all along.
Old /.'er? Heh... I guess I could say I'm one.
It's exactly this SHOUTING MATCH of wanna-be whiners is why I'm drifting away from Slashdot. That, and the *shitty* moderation system that rewards too-frequent posting, or people with dummy accounts. I see Slashdot spiraling downwards into that "was-cool-once" memory bin.
I suspect there are more people using warez copies of Windows XP than Linux.
I've been waiting for AGES for a Linux handheld, besides the expensive and Linux-unsupported iPaq/Itsy. I still need to justify the expense, but I think it's impressive to be able to port a Linux app right over, and with one ability to code you can write for two "platforms".
It's a pity that the Itsy was never released (AFAIK) to the public. Although current PDAs offer similar specs, the design was cool back then.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Here's a WinCE (Actually PocketPC) user that doesn't even have to reset once a week (going on 3 weeks since my last reset, still running fine).
What do I do with my PocketPC?
I use it as a PIM, I send and receive internet email using the built in mail program, I surf the web with the modem I bought for it. I used that to surf over to the Xircom website to get tech support for my coworker's Visor modem when it crashed while we were offsite. I have a few vid clips that I can play from PocketTV. I have a demo CAD program that lets you view/edit CAD drawings (we use CAD for the network diagrams here). The field manual for a product I use is stored on it in PocketWord format. Basically, I use it as a mucho portable laptop. It has never crashed, but has gotten flaky a couple of times (the worst was a hardware button not responding until I reset). So far, it's been more stable that the PalmPro it replaced...
Chris
With an open OS & apps, you have all the same benefits of Linux on your desktop -- if you don't like something, you can fix it -- always assuming somebody else didn't fix it before you, in which case you just d/l the patch, and off you go. "apt-get upgrade" anyone?
Also, has anybody considered the impact a device like this may have on the "Linux: usable by anybody -- even (especially?) your Mom" front? All those apps are open source and available, yes?
My
My
I'm gonna keep this in mind next time somebody tries to tell me X11 is too bloated. Hehe. I wish I could display Palm apps on my laptop's display so easily...
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Oh yeah? Well, I'm announcing an anti-gravity belt today. If anyone else actually ships one before me, they'll just be blatant thieves!
Wrong!
The Zaurus was big. The Newton was big. Even Radio Shack/Casio has a product called the Zoomer that was doing better. (Ironically, the zoomer came from the same designer as the Palm Pilot).
Palm made it because of price/value and the ability to use it. And basically they shot a bunch of money into it and made it really cheap to make. (Something the others had problems with).
Pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
It has more memory than a palm as well. ANY palm. Palm max mem 8M, Agenda 16Meg + 8Meg....
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
How does this make it any more unstable than a general-purpose PC OS that includes ps and kill (or the NT alternatives)? Just because you have the ability doesn't mean it is required or even used very often at all.
You sound like a guy that buys pencils w/o erasers, because the presence of an eraser will cause you to make mistakes...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Did you even look at the images on the web site? Nope - you didn't click the link. There are the usual dumbed-down apps that you need in a PDA. Also, how do you KNOW that multithreading isn't useful in a PDA in the near future? I'm sure someone said the same thing about larger-scale computing systems in the past....
I'm sure there will be addons by either Agenda or a third party. Jeez. You think Palms synced with anything but Outlook right out of the box?
Its a nice little unit, but what is their target market? Aside from geeks, who is going to buy one of these instead of the more standardized palm or wince device? Do they include a tool to move all your palm data to their format, or are they assuming that the people buying the Agenda won't be upgrading from an existing device?
Oh yeah, and are we taking bets on how long till somebody is running apache on it?
Have you tried PocketMoney?
I've used it for about 12 months now, and it's helped me track my expenses quite well. It does get a little slow after you've got a thousand odd records in it, but that usually doesn't happen until end of year anyway.
I've been porting Atari800 (the near-perfect Atari 8-bit emulator for Linux) to the Agenda.
newbreedsoftware.com/agenda-atari800/ - Enjoy!
Check ftp://orasoft.org/pub/agenda/ for Apache for Agenda.
Does this mean its fully multitasking?
Yep
And does this mean it has apps that are unstable to the point you would ever have to kill them?
Nope. I think the only process I've killed on my agenda is the keyboard app... and that's because I wanted to restart to test out a new keyboard layout file I was working on.
I just updated to "Matrix" (the latest builds of the kernel and applications) and, man, is this thing sweet. My Palm's days are numbered.
The 160x240 can be a bit of a pain... but when people ask how it compares to the Palm, I can say "it's a little higher rez." ;)
The greyscale is great, too. X applications that are happy in 8bit or 16bit or 32bit mode on a real PC seem to do just fine on the Agenda's greyscale display. Props to whoever's working on the X server.
PS shows:
-bill!
It depends on what you mean by "Sync."
If you mean grabbing your phone list and schedule off of the Agenda and using it in Outlook... yes, you need Windows.
If you mean transfering files, backing up your PDA, and grabbing your phone list and schedule off of the Agenad and using it on [your favorite Linux PIMs]... no, you don't need Windows. You can use Linux.
Agenda has an RSYNC daemon running by default. I don't have Windows, so I don't know about using Agenda with it, but under Linux, you simply set up PPPD on one of your serial ports (stick it in "/etc/inittab" to have it running all the time), plug your Agenda on, tap "Network", tap "Direct Serial", tap "Start".
All of a sudden, there's a mini LAN between your Agenda (IP 10.1.1.2, for example) and your PC (IP 10.1.1.3). (Edit "/etc/hosts" to turn those IPs into human-readable host names like "agenda" and "workstation".)
Depending on what app. you use on the Linux end, it shouldn't be too hard to read in pretty much any of the PIM data off of the Agenda.
I imagine that apps. which currently inherently support PalmOS will soon support Agenda. That's just the way Open Source is.
-bill!
(who needs to upload his GnomeCard file to his Agenda)
Woah... Have you not seen Andy's Agenda Help Page?
Follow his instructions, step by step (literally, cut and paste commands from the web page into an xterm), and you're set!
My Agenda's running Kernel 2.4.0pre9
-bill!
No wonder applications are klunky.
Says who? You? Do you have an Agenda?
I do! IMHO, the applications are not "klunky."
Got an URL? Agenda "announced" coming out with a Linux PDA long ago. So did Samsung. Has Lisa Systems actually DELIVERED one? Thanks!
-bill!
Yes, the software is GPL and available.
Go to http://developer.agendacomputing.com/
From the FTP site, you can download source for pretty much everything.
Thanks for the plug. :) Two games I played a lot on my Palm (other than Mah Jongg and Solitaire) are Galax and Invaders. Simple enough to code, so I wrote my own.
Soon after starting Aliens, someone mentioned that an ancient Galaga-style game I wrote under Solaris actually ships with the Yopy PDA! Bizarre!
Very cool! Thanks for the link!
:) That, and I was taking off for lunch ;) )
(And as for not searching myself, it could've been something convoluted like "www.somecompany.de/mobile/lisapda/" or something
Actually, the "BUY HERE" button went up yesterday, a day after it was 'officially released' at Comdex.
Before that, it was a big "DEVELOPERS BUY HERE" link. I'm surprised you missed it!
One thing I HATE about the site is their use of obnoxious bouncing animated GIFs. (A cool side effect of going to the page is the nifty dual-sinewaves my CPU meeter applet draws, though. Ugh)
How are you networking with that?
Well, I use Linux... no idea how the Windows folks do this. Anyway, here 'goes:
1. PPPD is running on the host (workstation)
2. Agenda is connected to the TTY that PPP is on
3. Tap "System -> Network" on the Agenda
4. Open the "Direct Serial" network connection
5. Tap "Start"
Voila!
Is it running X?
:^/
Yes, it's running X. About a week and a half ago I began writing a simple game for the Agenda from scratch (you may have seen it mentioned on LinuxGames.com and the Linux Game Tome.
I'm practically done. It was incredibly easy. Developing it on the PC end wasn't hard (I obviously had some experience coding X apps), and making what I wrote run on the Agenda was a matter of using a cross-compiler.
Porting Atari800 has proven quite easy, as well. I had it cross compiled and up and running (albeit slowly) on the Agenda in less than a half an hour.
Of course, if you want to stick to the "standard look and feel" of applications already written for the Agenda, the tool to use is FLTK (Fast/Light Toolkit).
It's a C++ lib, though.
and vice-versa!
The screenshots I took of Atari800 running on the Agenda were done by running the program on the Agenda, and displaying it on the Agenda.
Then, I ran "xwd" on the workstation, with the Agenda set as the display. A crosshair cursor popped up on my Agenda's LCD and I tapped the screen. "Beep!" "Beep!" Suddenly a ".xwd" screenshot image file was stored on my workstation!
In other words:
Developing for this PDA is a f**king breeze!
The specs page lists as one of the standard accessories a headset with microphone, IIRC. Anyone have any ideas why? I couldn't find anything else on their site.
Maan
CmdrTaco, Rob, *POSTED* this article but he didn't write it.
Pay attention.
... Agenda is fighting against a large installed base. U.S. Robotics had no such competitor when it first released the Palm Pilot 1000 back in '96.
Guess you could say I've been around for a while. I've basically given up commenting because you never really get noticed. :) As you probably well know, freedom of speach means nothing if nobody hears you.
:P), and sometimes (not too often) comp.sys.sgi.
Flames, trolls, and idiots -- oh well.
In answer to your question about where everyone's gone, I'm sure it depends on the person. Personally I'm very active on comp.os.vms (watch, I'll get flamed for even mentioning VMS here, especially when I say I'd prefer it to linux in most cases if there were more apps available!
I'm sorry, but until someone kicks the palmvx's ass without me having to drop over $300 again and has USB hotsynch support for my favorite linux flavor, I see no reason to entertain Yet Another PDA.
(I want you, palm m505 or visor edge. Try to meet me halfway. Please?)
Speak truth to power.
Have you looked at the Qt embedded enviroment?
>does this mean that all of the software on the machine is GPL or something similar
Yes, the built in apps are all open source.
>All someone has to do is port X to it and that will change.
Uh, the Agenda already runs X as standard. The preferred toolkit is fltk, but low level X apps work just fine.
>the sync software only runs on Windows....
:P
You can connect to a linux box and use standard apps to sync your files. There isn't a point'n'drool version for linux, but rsync works just fine.
What's really fun is using nfs to mount a remote drive on the Agenda (or vice-versa) and exporting $DISPLAY one way or the other. Running Agenda apps displayed on a PC monitor (or vice-versa again) is useful as well as having a high geek quotient.
This little unit really is running a full version of linux and X, and if that's good enough for the internet it's good enough for a PDA
They claim that the IR will talk to any "OBEX-compliant" device. Is this simply at a hardware level, or will I actually be able to exchange appointments, addresses and memos with my wife's Palm?
--
--
E_NOSIG
>why don't pda's support PCMCIA cards..?
Two words: power consumption
This one runs apache :-)
The link also shows many other apps for the Agenda...
Was at Comdex in Chicago today and played with one for a few minutes. It looked like a PDA and did standard PDA things, so to me it's not much different than my Palm IIIx. I believe that the price is a bit high, however: at $199 or so it could be tempting (opening a terminal session on the PDA was *fun*) but at $299 I have doubts that they'll sell enough to pay the bills.
It's nice to finally see a PDA with a screen covering the whole display area. I've always been a little tuned off by the Palm (-like) devices becuase of the graffiti writing area. If the screen was just extended to that area as well, developers would have that much more real-estate to work with.
For now, I'm using a Xircom REX 6000. The PCMCIA form factor and touch screen make it the perfect companion to my laptop, carrying names, numbers, notes, etc. It doesn't run every application ever written, but I can't complain becuase the size simply rocks.
Speaking of real-estate, what's the purpose of putting buttons on the units anyway? Every PDA I've ever seen (iPaq, Cassio, Palm, REX, etc.) has buttons - several. Why? Doesn't a touch screen provide the same functionality (even soft-power...) as the buttons, and if you did need a button, why couldn't it be an edge button like the Nokia 82?0 phones or the m505's power button? A PDA the size of a large post-it note (and as thick as a pad of them) with a full-touch-screen would be dandy. As long as the "normal" applications are supported (read email, addresses, calculator, notes, yadda yadda yadda), that's just about the right form factor.
</RANT>
I'll get back to work now.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
Don't know a lot of WinCE users, do you? My Casio E105 worked great (until I dropped it on the screen).
I used it regularly with a 56k modem; ethernet card and IBM 360 Mb microdrive.
I also used Troll Tech's embedded QT/Linux for a while. Very nice. I love the ability to rotated the screen. It also did almost everything that WinCE did -- and several WinCE didn't.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Telnet, FTP and NMAP running from one of these gizmos makes for a great network testing/troubleshooting device.
(I have used all of the above on a Casio E-105 running vrlinux with an ethernet card.)
PDF viewing is also a plus. So is the ability to handle e-mail with attachments (like images or sounds).
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
no, i'd just get the source my self. How else is my termite farm supposed to run apache?
----------------------
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. --Sun-Tzu
Here is an FAQ from the Agenda Developer Zone. Among other things, they mention that the batteries last about a month, which is what I was really wondering. :-)
--
Patrick Doyle
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
The Palm Pilot was the first widely successful PDA device (despite the merrits Newton fans like to point out).
Palm didn't spring up in the executive board room. Sure, Palm's own glossy pamphlets showed two business types setting up a meeting on a golf course. But that audience was slow in picking up the devices. Early on, there was strong support from third party developers, tinkerers, and hackers. Geeks.
The Palm device was the geek status symbol. If you were a tech-head, you HAD to get one. Everybody was doing cool, odd things with them. Oh. And while you had it - wow... it WAS usefull for notes and keeping appointments and other mundane activities. But have you seen the cool tricorder simulator? How about that RISK game that makes those meetings you're now remembering to attend actually bearable?
So Agenda might be targeted towards the geek crowd. But then... that might be the right place to start.
Palm's initial design was right. But it was third party developers that made the device fill in niche markets and become indispensible.
It will be interesting to see if Agenda has designed the right platform. And it will be interesting to see if developers (read: hackers) will fix anything Agenda is lacking.
But how does QT/Embedded compare to FLTK? I would think it would be worth having Xwindows compatibility for porting purposes...
(I had a heck of a time getting this working - but that's because the serial port on my Linux desktop was fscked.)
If you're a Linux geek looking for a neat hacker's toy, get one now and start playing. If you're looking for a gift for your tech-unsavvy mom, I'd say wait a few months, but it's getting there.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Seconded! I got mine less than two weeks ago, updated it, and now use it daily. That help page is excellent; there are some other great resourced linked from http://developer.agendacomputing.com.
Perfect? No. Usable? Yes. Bugs getting fixed? Yes. Inspiring some hacking? Yes, I want to port a rhyming dictionary (probably have to store the data zipped and use zlib, or something).
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
The samsung Yopy runs Linux. check out /. and /.
----- --- - - -
jacob rothstein reed college
Yeah, ditto! My pro is a little trooper. The screen needs recalibrating a lot now though, dispite reseating the connector many times. I suspect the capacitance or whatever effect generates the touch detection is going. I can't think of anything else I bought in 1997 I'm still using today, though :).
Palm IIIxe's are going for $250 cdn here. It's tempting up upgrade, but I really want one of those m505s..
..don't panic
So when they say "Join the Linux revolution" and "free software movement", does this mean that all of the software on the machine is GPL or something similar, so that unlike Palm OS, when I want to change a built-in app I can (provided I have skillz)? I'm not finding a lot on their site that indicates one way or the other.
IIRC, Palm has the source to all of the on-board applications (and a lot of the games) included as part of the development kit, so you can indeed change the application to do whatever you want. Some of them have, as I believe there are several very nice calendar replacements available based on the 'stock' code. You can even get the source code to the OS as a liscenced developer - is it free? No, but the code is available.
Palm has actively supported the free tools; They could be nicer about the USB specs, but I don't know enough to comment on that.
You might want to check out Palm Open Source for more goodies. There a nice little market doing custom development for palms, now, too.
NOBODY has come out and offered what I really want - linux on a PDA with a nice keyboard, a la the Jornada! GCC to go, with a real keyboard. I could toss the vaio then.
..don't panic
MultiUser Digital Assistant = MUDA?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
There was that Qt-Embedded. Unfortunately, that adds C++ overhead, though.
--------
Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
(disclaimer: I am programming/use a Palm heavily these days; so I am biased) /etc/foo2.pdb". I want to be able to use a quick and dirty UI that does it for me.
I have used a Linux PDA before, saw a cheap knockoff unit at work a while back and I was completely unimpressed. A PDA is about being able to get to information quickly, not about being able to use an xterm (pterm?). I don't want to have to scribble in "cp ~mydir/foo.pdb
Also multitasking is totally useless in a PDA, just look at how slow they run when you have more than 1 app going. Why do you think the Palm is single threaded? (for all intensive purposes, I know you can hack this)
Summary: buy an m500 and enjoy an OS that doesn't get in your way, is designed for the system that it is on (from the ground up; not hacked to fit the system) and is simple / easy to use.
OTOH, if you have too much time/$$$ on your hands, buy a Linux PDA and be 'leet. Its your life.
--
************************
************************
What, me worry?
I see the Agenda has an IrDA port, and a TCP/IP stack, so is it possible to set up a LAN between a workstation and the Agenda over the IrDA port?
- Have a picture
Take a look at E2. Very well done community site, without all the trolling of ./. (Also the only site I allow to transmit advertisements to me.)
Cheers,
Rick Kirkland
There are Palms and Handsprings available in the $149 range, but they come with 2M of user accessible memory. That is just slightly more than a floppy disk, making the device as a whole slightly more usable than a calculator and an address book.
This has 8M of RAM, plus since its open source I expect you can use some of the Flash area for your own archived files.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Check out http://www.ibutton.com/TINI
The TINI device has a serial, 1-wire, and ethernet port, and has slip, ppp, and dhcp software included. This could also be used to foreward packets from the Agenda's serial port to a 10mbit network. Add this to a little black box, and you have a portable lan monitor / admin terminal.
Wicked!
This device is in the middle ground between the expensive, colour CE devices like the Casio-thing/IPAQ and the low-spec Palm.
The fact that it competes directly with the PalmPilot on price, and offers a much higher spec, along with a readily customisable, open source OS sells it for me.
Colour is a feature i just don't need in a PDA, and the ability to program this device with familiar tools makes it very attractive to me.
The company i work for currently does CE development, but the high price of these devices limit the number of cutomers we can get. i.e. they like the software, but balk at the price of the hardware to run it.
If our (NZ) dollar wasn't so far down the toilet i'd have bought one already.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
I doubt it would appeal to Linux Geeks... the sync software only runs on Windows....
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
oh my GOD have you ever tried to kill off the application you're currently running on WinCE? It's at least 5 clicks if not more. At some point, the ability to close an application with the little X button was removed from thePocketPC platform.
My boss bought me a Jornada 548. I used it for a week before I sent it back, even though I'd gotten it for free. I'm back to my Vx, and even without the color screen, it's still a FAR superior handheld.
It's ironic, because when I would reach for the cradle I would see the Jornada in place of the Palm -- and I would actually wince.
What fits into 2mb of Palm Ram:
For a grand total of... 708.3k. Which leaves you 1339.7k for videogames and sleazy porn doc files from the ASSTR archives.
Please - feel free to speak at length on what you know and enrich us on those subjects, but you're way off base here.
I don't think that comparing the Agenda to the Pilot is very premature - Let's wait untill the shipping units are out before getting too gung ho?
I'm really don't think there's any value inherent in a Linux PDA.
:) ).
Before I get flamed mercilessly, let me explain...
I started with the original Newton. then moved to Palm when the Pro came out. Then came the Palm V. After that, I got a Psion V w/ Epoc 32. Then I managed to get my hands on a prototype Newton tablet that Apple never released. Then, when I realized that wouldn't do what I needed, I built my own Linux-based PDA using the ucLinux SIMM hardware project and an LCD panel. Then I moved onto the iPaq
After going through all of these handheld devices, I still haven't found one that can be hacked to the functionality I desire, which is essentially a wide-area wireless browsing device. For all its virtues, Linux (at present) doesn't provide much beyond its coolness factor in the handheld arena. Functionally the Palm or the iPaq with their native operating systems are FAR more useful to the end user population.
When a decent UI (read: simple yet complete) UI and a stable business application suite are made available under Linux on a PDA, then they'll do better than they have. Palm compatibility for data transfer will be essential, as will battery life.
Until that time Linux on a PDA (IMO) will remain a mere curiosity for geeks to stare at (I personally am now over my staring phase...
-drin
I dunno - if you carried around a beowulf cluster in your pocket, you'd probably get more radiation sent into your gonads than a damn cel phone sends into your melon.
That would not be a Good Thing
- passion
Those of us who are working (and earning money) are on Sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net) The best real community (even has a moderation system that was planned, written by the guy who wrote kuro5hin's) is Half-Empty at http://www.half-empty.org ... be aware, however that the moderation system has a local Java applet (about 10k) that is required in order to securely track session state.
Remember guys, this is Amerika. Just because you have the most votes, doesn't mean you get to win.--Fox Mulder
Royal DaVinci's price point is $100 and they're not eating the market alive. 'Course they don't have a Linux based unit (though they've been promising one... hold your breath!)
Its cool to have a handheld running linux, but the linux Os like everyone knows is best for networking not for desktop or ui, the palm os was developed for handheld, so why bother using linux for handhelds? just to say its cool? or to feel 31337? bah.. i'm happy with my visor and the OS type is not the reason i bought it.
What it really needs is some sort of world-wide wireless access ala Palm VII. When I can ssh into a server at home or work, then, and only then will I need one of these. Tunneling some X apps off of my home server would also be nice. That's what I was hoping companies would do with Transmetas. Make something about the size of an Etch-a-sketch, but world wide wireless and preferrabley running unix or linux.
I like lots of people. That doesn't mean I go carting them around the galaxy with me. --Dr. Who
i like the fact that its a linux based PDA, but the screen has a resolution of 160x240, which isn't even as good as palms, that i since i have one, i'll wait to see where they are in a couple of years. does anybody know if the IR on these things will talk to and understand palms? if so, is it possible to transfer documents and things of this nature?
Think of: :-)
- mutt for handling mail
- midnight commander for file manager
- bitchx for chatting on irc - lynx for textual web-browser
- emacs (?!?) for everithing, including preparing your breakfast
If you add to this the multiple virtual consoles, you may not need any GUI at all (but only graphic programs to display image files and such). You will be able to use the 8 MB for something more important that giving your GUI a nice look.
You will need a virtual keyboard, however. And a program like gpm, which allows you to use the pen to interact with course-based or dialog-based user-interface elements.
Ciao
----
FB
It only syncs to outlook. What's the point of running Linux if you just sync to outlook. Reminds me of the user friendly when Pitr writes VBS extensions for Linux so it will be vulnerable to viruses.
I dunno how comfortable I feel using a handheld whose only claim to superiority is the fact you can kill errant processes. The implication being that if you have to use this often, the system isn't very stable.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Why, for the sake of having Linux on a handheld, would I or anyone else want to accept a product that is admittedly inferior?
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
No worries mate, it hooks up fine with Outlook (or so they claim, I haven't tried it), so people can move their data over no problem. They'll probably appeal more to linux loving geeks than to the mainstream, but they haven't totally ignored the population at large.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
He's torn between a somewhat sub par interface (he didn't say "it's a piece of shit," he just said it didn't seem quite as slick) and the flexibility of open source. In particular, he mentions ps, which I agree would probably be exceptionally useful for limited memory handhelds, but not the sort of thing that palm or WinCE is likely to provide any time soon, as it would intimidate new users.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
For what? oh I see, build a cluster of these, the current geek-fetish
I understand that people who run a server don't update every second just because a new kernel (-patch) has been released, but for a desktop system it shouldn't be too risky.
I hate to make unsolicited advertisement, but why not use SuSE 7.1, for example? It uses the new 2.4 kernel and has other nice features?
--
"I find your Lack of Faith disturbing." Darth Vader
People shouldn't get hung up on whether it uses Linux or not. Who cares apart from a few geeks? More important is whether it's any good as a PDA. If the software sucks, or the battery life measures in hours, or the screen is rotten then why would anyone in their right mind want to buy it?
Keep in mind that the screen is only 160240x4bit greyscale. So not nearly as much as it uses on your desktop.
Someone already tried to sell me a block of wood with a Tux sticker on it. He told me that it had the same functionality as Linux. I wasn't fooled for second, I bought the block of plastic with a Tux sticker instead.
I looks as if it is comparable to a palm or handspring. When are they going to come out with a color version? Is it going to be theme enabled? Is it running X?
If there is the connectivity to the desktop box it's time to buy. Why? Because anything that is missing on the PDA, you can compile with a cross compiler and put onto the machine. The perfect geek toy, if a bit expensive. Then again, I've spent more on things less useful than something I can play ACEFreecell during meetings with.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
Maybe 'cos Taco mentioned it as a selling point?
First of all let me say that I don't own a PDA. I use a written daytimer and it works fine for my purposes. The only reason I would get a PDA is if I could throw an 802.11 card into it and have internet access on it and this product does not offer that feature.. why don't pda's support PCMCIA cards..? With the current state of PCMCIA I don't think this would be that hard...
From various Agenda info pages:
m l#system
t ml
"CD-ROM Software QuickSync for Linux and Windows PC" - http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/system.ht
"With our QuickSync Cradle and software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or Linux PC." - http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/details.h
Too lazy to link...
OK, somebody has to say it: Imagine a B-Cluster of these!
__
at least the "online store" buy portion of the site ...
my big question is (judging only from previous /. story/comments), is has the handwriting recognition been improved? is it grafitti or some other construct?
i love my visor but since i bought it (about a year ago), i still haven't found a good checkbook application - i've tried all the commercial, shareware, open source free stuff out there and none of them fulfill my basic requirements (approximating my checkbook register in my since discarded Franklin planner):
the apps that came bundled with palm were fine 2 years ago, but i don't think they take advantage of the 8M-16M devices now - i don't want to have to access my home box or carry a planner/book around when i want to locate quickly the dates when i sent a check to the insurance company or when the power goes off i can easily verify that i paid the bill instead of settling for rolling blackout ...
i considered rolling my own for palm os, but just was discouraged at learning another API and i think even a gimped linux handheld os might offer a better platform than the palm - i still find it astonishing that i can play a decent game of bridge on my visor, but i can't find a decent checkbook .prc - i tried to live with the built-in expense app but it was awkward and clunky and had to tap thru 2-3 screens when entering stuff or looking it up ...
AZspot
I don't regret getting the Agenda VR3, but I do regret getting the developer edition, at the earliest stage. I bought it to support the open source blah, blah blah blah. But I still haven't got it useable, cause 1. I just have the time learn how to get it running, and 2. I don't have the money to buy batteries to keep flashing the unit if I screw up. I haven't found a good tutorial on how to get the developer edition up and running and usable... Hopefully all these issues can be resolved so it will be a no hassle for the consumer edition.
On a side note, I'm sure If I read all my [agenda-user] emails (it takes a long time just to delete them all) then I wouldn't be having this problem, but... no time
"If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten."
-- George Carlin
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
One of the big reasons that people liked the Palms over the old Windows CE machines was that on a palm you don't have to do any resource management other than storage space. I really hope that this company did not fail to learn from MS mistakes. The only think worse than putting out a bad PDA is putting out a bad PDA first. Then you go and ruin the market for everyone.
"Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
"Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
-Suck
I think they went to kuro5hin or the register, but more likely they have be drowned by the trolls and weenies. I must say I do agree with you. I think the thing is cool and even considered getting the developer addition. I just don't see myself ever using any PDA. Too bad there are no more mod points for me right now, or else you'd be modded up.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
So when they say "Join the Linux revolution" and "free software movement", does this mean that all of the software on the machine is GPL or something similar, so that unlike Palm OS, when I want to change a built-in app I can (provided I have skillz)? I'm not finding a lot on their site that indicates one way or the other.
I do not have a signature
At $249 the price is right???? I honestly have to say that at about $99 the price would be right. This is not meant as a slam on the product, I've never seen it, but I think these things need to get around $100 to really fly. Until then it's nothing but a geek toy, a cool toy, yes, but a geek toy nonetheless.
I'm interested in this PDA but I haven't seen any ratings on the Linux Hardware Database yet. If anyone has this device and wants to submit comments, go to: http://lhd.zdnet.com/db/dispproduct.php3?DISP?2719
Thanks. I need all the input I can get
Formerly this was known as the Linux "Hidden Agenda" and was dedicated to taking over desktops everywhere. Now, with the official release of the Linux Agenda, we can all see what they've been trying to do- and it's just PDAs! They've given up on servers! Help!
knee-jerk? check. post? check. okay, time to read the article.
The best thing about it? It's not actualy a PDA, it's a sub-sub notebook. Why? With its build-in X server and Linux OS, plus the IR port this is IDEAL thing for remote network administration. eg. run SSH (!) on VR3 then through its build in IRDA (or serial) port (connected to cellular phone) dial to your ISP (or server directly) and you can login to your server from anywhere you want. Its just as easy as that.
Plus you can convert all Palm contacts to VR3's DB format, sync with Palm, Linux, BeOS, M$..., surf the web, read e-mail, play mp3's, not to mention running apache, bash, NFS, etc. (Agenda software repository)...
To summurize: if you need a smal portable Linux running X box than go for it. But if you only need it for contacts and appointments I would sugest Palm though.
Hlod
Oh great, it has ps and kill. That's a reason to buy, for sure. Does this mean its fully multitasking? And does this mean it has apps that are unstable to the point you would ever have to kill them? Seems like a pretty useless device to me... I'd hate to spend alot of time inputing some notes or addresses just to have to kill my process and lose all my hard work. And ps? I don't have time to worry about what process is running. But that's just me.
you can run linux on your pda, but if you want to browse your email on it, you had better be running ms outlook...
What about Samsung's Yopy?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I know that people have mentioned that a PDA doesn't need an xterm, but I think it would be handy for playing with shell, perl scripts, and c whilst waiting for a plane without having to bust out a laptop.
/*drunk.. fix later*/
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these...
Er... Well, y'know. You can't make an omelette without um... destroying a forest. Or something.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
The advantage of using Linux over Palm or CE on a PDA is that they don't have to sell as many Linux based units as they would if they went with Palm or CE as they don't have to pay licensing fees to Palm or MS.
On the downside they had to write all their own applications for the thing. No shortage of "gee wiz" toys for Palm and CE platforms. For now, WYSIWYG. That shouldn't take too long as long as the Linux community embraces it and writes stuff on it. As it's running Linux, they should pick up a good handful of sales just for that reason, hopefully keeping the "chicken or egg problem" to a minimum. (ie, how do you get users to buy a platform that has a minimal amount of apps?)
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Uh, what's the point of a Linux handheld if you can only QuickSync it with a Win 9x/NT/ME computer? I thought the point was that you didn't need any proprietary software!
This is not flame, I'm really just wondering.
--
Behold the power of Duct Tape!
Check your facts.
It's a fact, you moron.
Anyway, yes - they are delivering. It's based on the iPaq. Some snippets from the site include:
"In december 2000 LISA mLinux 0.6 was released. Our first Linux distribution for a handheld put Compaq's iPAQ under Linux."
I wonder when the color ver's coming out. That's what I'm really waiting for. It's what kept me from getting the developer version.
I'm starting to wonder if aliens/the feds aren't busy kidnapping /.'ers and replacing them with drones.
/.'ers Linux users, AT ALL!)
Here we have a company that was willing to try and bring out a reasonably priced and decently performing handheld unit that runs Linux and runs it well. They have been nothing but open, friendly and helpful to those who are trying to develop for it.
Is it perfect? No. What version 1.0 of nearly anything is these days? Especially with a product that IS geared toward the geeks among us?(There are at least a couple left I'm sure...)
Since many of you who have posted to this topic obviously won't ever look for yourselves, believe me when I say that you CAN in fact use this device in as brain-dead a fashion as a Palm. Set an appointment, jot down a contact, etc WITHOUT having to type in command lines. But you can do so much more when the guts of the machine are readily available and familiar to you in the form of Linux. (Though I suspect that no longer are the majority of
So, finally it's ready for release and what do you guys do? Shit all over it. From people who are obviously feeling threatened (oh no! MY cool shiny thing isn't so cool anymore! Wait a minute, I'll just throw mud at everyone else and proclaim how great my toy REALLY is and then it will still be shiniest! Yeah, that's a plan!) by it to just plain ignoramuses who think it requires command lines to do anything.
What the hell is wrong with you people? Could one of the ex-/.'ers of old who might still be lurking please tell this straggler where you all have migrated to?
LEXX
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
this PDA includes a"consumer IR port" for use with TV's and other IR controlled home devices (stereo's, vcr's you get the idea)in addition to the IR port for syncing with other Palms, or PC's.
the 'Agenda' makes as sweet universal remote, with PDA functions included. although this port is built in, I don't believe any software takes advantage of it yet. anyone know of a Linux app for programming universal remote controls?
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
> 4. Stylus removal or return is On/Off Switch
Seriously, this is the greatest, simplest idea I've ever seen. Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?
Or maybe I'm just a sucker for "common sense".
"Freedom in cyberspace'd be fine and dandy if we happened to live there."
What kind of Wood????
---> suck it
I wonder if we can port Windows CE to it. :)
Linux is what nearly all of the owners of developer model VR3s use. It is done by connecting the VR3 to the serial port on the PC using a cradle and cable, and connecting to a pppd on the PC with software included on the VR3.
I've had a developer model VR3 for a few months now, which I believe has little to no significant differences from the just-released consumer model.
I really like it. Probably the biggest benefit is that it runs Linux and X, giving it a huge amount of software that can easily be cross-compiled to run on the VR3.
The posts I've read so far seem to indicate that people are unsure of this... ALL OF THE VR3 SOFTWARE IS OPEN SOURCE, which gives all the typical advantages that I won't mention.
The developer unit was completely upgradeable, as in you can totally replace the entire OS, including the kernel, if you want to, and that seems to also be the case with the consumer unit.
The VR3 seems so much more versatile and open than the typical PDA's, and software can be written and ported to it very easily because of the familiar programs and libraries it uses.
A handheld that accepts IBM microdrives and also lets me run a C64 emulator like Frodo. The goal being to have every single C64 game in my pocket. Are any of the handhelds able to run just any old windows program (Frodo) or are they different enough that this wouldn't work? How different is wince from win?
Questions:
a) When is USB available?
b) Ditto the keyboard.
c) Are there any battery life specs available?
d) That modem: can I buy two, and use one for my desktop, DSL and LSD being equally trippy in my neighborhood?
e) Is there a package deal for all these swell goodies? Vie fiele frogskins?
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Some here seem to feel that the PalmOS is better for its purpose than Linux, due to ease of use considerations or other considerations. The main problem that most see with it is that the OS is not open source. Therefore the question arises: why not develop an open source OS specifically oriented to handheld devices? In my opinion, since a handheld is almost guaranteed to be a single-user device, there are areas in OS design that can be "lighter". I am undecided about the single-task versus multi-tasking issue, but things like the UI, file handling and access controls could possibly take advantage of the fact that only one person ever uses the system. Serialization and synchronization issues among programs are somewhat simplified, too. Vtech has/had opened their VT-OS, releasing the source for developers and the like. Now that they've discontinued the Helio, perhaps they would put their OS in the public domain as a starting point for such a project...
As one of the owners of a developer's model, I like the Agenda. I got one of the first release models, and enjoy tweaking it a great deal. Personally, I like a PDA that I can connect to my Linux box and do network administration with, without needing to download any extra programs, as I would need to do with a PalmOS or WinCE machine. After I make my own cable (or convince Agenda to do it), I'll be able to plug the device directly into a port and administer from there, without the need of my desktop box. I like this PDA enough that I'm trying to get my employer (NYC Board of Education) to consider buying a few of them.
A multi user PDA would be an oxymoron wouldn't it? But if is based on linux I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. This is truly a versitile PDA if stop to think about it. The best thing though, to me at least, no SDK to learn. I could see running a MUD on one just for shits and giggles.
'Same speed C but faster'
And for the Handsprings and also there is one coming out for the Agenda VR3. The fold out ones are cool, the VR3 one looks a little small.
does it have perl!?!?! If it can run perl .... then I'll take 10!
Beowulf clusters linked through the IR port?
"All someone has to do is port X to it and that will change"
.. er .. fingers...
Read the web page linked to before you open your
I Quote from the faq:
"What window manager does the VR3 use? Can I open multiple windows at the same time?
The VR3 uses a modified version of flwm. Windows are maximized by default, but the `status bar' application includes (among other things) a drop-down window listing to facilitate managing multiple windows."
Terminal software is available in Palm as well (and has been for a long time), I have had the pleasure to do some basic stuff without having to pull a big fat terminal/PC/laptop all around the place(no, we did not have terminal servers then). Literlay all in the Palm of my hand ;-)
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Why not put pocket linux on it? That will take care of some of the UI problems.
This is a very kewl port, BTW..... just wanted everyone interested to know that ;-)
;-)
Also, Bill failed to mention that he has a rather kick-ass little game for the Agenda called Aliens. The thing is that's so kewl about this is that since it uses Xlib, you should be able to compile this thing on just about any *nix machine and try it out without owning an Agenda. (Granted... it'll be sideways on your screen
Actually... if you notice... they popped up a "Buy Here" button now that they have been slashdotted..... WHen I looked over this stuff a few days ago (after Kendrick's awesome work was announced on Linux Games) I actually had a really hard time finding out where I could purchase one of these babies ;-)
;-)
Funny what tons of hits to your site makes you do
doesn't radition also promote good mutation? (let the antitrolls click "reply" now.) Without constant radiation from the sun god RA, that comes out once a day, there would infact exist no dorks, nerds or linui-ennui or ballzheys. Cell phones and mr. yellow-hot are microwaving and synthesizing your offspring along in a good vs. evil, survivor2 fashion to defeat Digi-Cell, the half n' half(cream and milk) bioclone /(dot) pc thing. Is is a clone or is it MEMmorex? I just don't know.
PS. If we just bounce all of the information we have all day long in the air then what would eventually happen? Think before you dork.
You know the Microsoft destroys the night, Linux devides the day...
I really like this thing. It has a good amount of memmory, and enough power to boot. Plus the pricetag is pritty nice.
I want to know:
Does it work with linux?
How much is the modem?
When I get a pda, it is going to have to have a miniature KEYBOARD available! This wireless keyboard is neat, but it looks like a toy. I just don't think typeing on it would be easy enough for it to be worth using it.
-EvilMonkeyNinja
a.k.a. Joseph Nicholas Yarbrough
Security Grunt by Day
Programmer by Night
-EvilMonkeyNinja
Mild Mannered Host by Day
Wild Hammered Programmer by Night
Palm does a limited set of things extremely well. But Palm is not a convenient platform to write custom applications for: its screen, processor, and operating system are way too limited and non-standard. Something like the Agenda uses standard APIs, can deal with bigger programs, and allows people to use standard development tools.
In the long run, devices like the Palm won't survive because their functionality will be subsumed by devices like the Agenda. In fact, I would be surprised if even PalmOS 5 wasn't a completely different system (EPOC? Linux?) that ran the old applications in emulation mode. Until then, you have to make a choice.
(As for WinCE, that's just a lost cause as far as I'm concerned.)
For now, the Palm will still give you better calendaring and better battery life.
However, for custom applications/vertical applications, the Palm is unimpressive: low resolution screen, underpowered processor, limited OS, limited memory management. Something Linux based, with standard APIs, X11, and a good range of scripting languages is a better choice for that.
one thing i can tell you is you got to be free
Finally, I still haven't got Pocketlinux on my Helio. =(
So can you run pine on this thing? What kind of email client does it have?
There's this Giant led sign with an ir port at the casino in my city. A BIG sign. It has blinky lights, and beckons to me. It says 'hiro, you need this pda. Hack me, hiro. And then buy some disposable cell phones and crank call washington'
[haven't you tried FunWithPerl?]
It would be interesting to allow multiuser access to this kind of device. I'm not sure at what level the ir communication is at, but it is certainly possible, and would be neat.
Too many people begrudge neat for it's own sake. I think that it's by playing with things that are neat, which we are passionate about, that we make the truley innovate advances.
I think that the ability to code for these things yourself is fantastic. Are there many tech companies who write client-oriented software for these things? Who do 'solutions?'
[haven't you tried FunWithPerl?]
Psion has a frodo emulator, but at the moment I find it unusable on the greyscale LCD's of the psion 5MX and Revo :-(.
I think at the moment lynx is the only usable webbrowser on a PDA, when you use it in combination with a GSM. And this machine will run that, right?
As a current owner of an Agenda, I can pretty much say that with certainty: 1) The interface, once flashed with the latest binaries (as opposed to the older ones present in teh shipped models), easily kicks Palm into the next century. 2) The handwriting recognition could use a little work still, but differentiation between recognizing writing and mouse-style input is always tricky, and will probably be refined as time goes on. 3) You want color? You can load Linux onto the iPac with a bit of work. I assume that later versions of the Agenda will probably be in color as well. Currently, the screen may be grey, but the resolution is better than that of even the latest model Palm. (besides, doesn't Palm have only one model that comes with a color screen, and it isn't even their top-of-the-line model?) 4) I'm sitting on 24MB of memory here - 16 in flash-storage and 8MB of RAM (I'm not even counting ROM - space...) Most popular palm-tops don't come very close. 5) Yep - there's still bugs in the thing; however, they're getting ironed out now (my own device is very workable and bug-free, though new and experiemtnal additions tend to require ironing-out.) However, the general public doesn't get inflicted with bad code, and the very fact that I can do anything I want to this little machine, evne to the kernel level, is rather enjoyable... /P
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?