Slashdot Mirror

It's not so much a thing of of "liking" the ergonomic shape. It's more a thing of my pinkies tingling and becoming numb, which is a feeling that can drive one crazy, and definitely not healthy. ^^

But your normal "ergonomic" keyboard just replaces the disadvantage of that with pain in your shoulders from keeping them at an angle.

Then again, most so-called "ergonomic" keyboards have nothing to do with being ergonomic at all. Microsoft and Logitech are the worst at this. They make the space bar a bit bulgy in the front, make the key arrangement look a teeeny-tiny bit wavy, and call it "ergonomic".

THIS is a proper ergonomic keyboard. Unfortunately, its price is beyond crazy. And it has a bit of a "Mice? Not invented here!" problem.

I've got my DataHand almost 10 years ago, and I still use it everyday, really love it.

This keyboard rid me of painful wrists problems and I highly recommend it.

If the OP is interested in it, there are foot pedals for changing modes, so you don't have to use the thumbs to access them:
http://www.datahand.com/products/accessories.htm

i love das keyboard, got the ultimate without characters printed on. noisy but my hands like it very very much. not ergonomic, so probably nothing you would buy... try data hands http://www.datahand.com/ are said to be the best, but require a little practice...

(such as not using my little and ring fingers when I really should)

No, that is an error of the layout! Your rind and little finger are weaker. Basically your little finger is just an outreaching touch sensor, and not meant for grabbing. Especially not on such an incredibly convoluted and stupid layout as the default one. And I’m not talking about the position of the letters, but about the shape and layout of the physical keys!

If you want to make it a bit better, I recommend this keyboard (if it’s still sold): http://www.datadesktech.com/desktop_base.html
I had it, and it was the best keyboard I ever had. Like an IBM one, but ergonomic. Not that fake-“ergonomic” style that e.g. Microsoft uses. Look at the upper outside keys (those for the smaller fingers). They are wider, and easier to press. Also the columns are exactly aligned. Not slanted. And you raise the front, not the back. So it’s really nice. (I recommend buying the black USB variant.)

Why do I tell you this? Simple: Because the new layout forces you to re-learn touch-typing. In which case you can learn it properly and comfortably right from the start. :)

But a note: Even those keyboards are not perfect, since you still have to raise your elbows to type in that V shape. (Much better than default keyboards though!) So you will get a bit of strain in your shoulders.
The only way around that, that I know, is using two Datahands, mounted right on the chair. But it looks like they aren’t sold anymore. Also the last time I checked, they were at $700 per hand!

About Dvorak: Go for it!
I doesn’t even come close to our German version of an alternative layout (NEO 2.0), which has 6 levels, but it’s still much better than the default one.
I just left the default key stickers on my keyboard when learning NEO. Which made it impossible to look on the keys, and so I learned touch-typing much quicker. :)

Qwerty is for pussies! (Dvorak too.)
Real men have XVLCWK layouts with 6 shift levels trough 3 mod keys:
http://www.neo-layout.org/ (And it seems they have to be German. ^^)

Ok, real men use this: http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm
Mounted to this: http://rhythmemotion.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/photo0090.jpg

But I guess real men would use a Matrix headjack BCI chair. ;)

* Thinkpad keyboard — still one of the best laptop keyboard in the world IMHO

There fixed that for ya. But it's like being the best or something that in generally considered to be trash. ;)

The best keyboard in the world, no strings attached? That would be... the DataHand Pro II.

I think what we need is a setup like this:

One giant main monitor.
A set of up to six satellite monitors that are freely movable around the outside and hold palettes. tools, widgets, desk-/applets. etc.
An optional second main monitor.
And a tactile surface display with actual morphable elevations that supports all setups.
The tactile monitor and the main monitor can optionally be one continuing surface, so that the task bar's buttons would seamlessly fit to the other key rows, etc.
That's what I wait for.

Oh, and if you can offer me two DataHands with a built-in small Space Orb between each thumb and index finger, then you can leave the tactile monitor away.

I don't want their hands to be crippled before they start their first job!

Exactly! And that's why they need DataHand.

It's 2009! Wake up sheeple!!

I don't want their hands to be crippled before they start their first job!

I wouldn't accept anything less than this: http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm
With a adapted proper layout like DVORAK, or for German keyboards NEO ( http://www.neo-layout.org/ Because compared to this, DVORAK looks like a bad joke of inside-the-box thinking ^^).

If only they were ergonomic. (Protip: All MS [or Logitech, or pretty much all others] keyboards without any exception are not ergonomic. They just look as if they were.)

Give me a DataHand Pro II with an integrated 6-axis orb/ball for one hand, and pressure sensitive keys, below $200 for both hands, and you got a ton of clients!

In other words: Microsoft's Natal Adds Insult To Injury.

While keyboards are still clearly superior if you only have one hand, how many other types of controllers are out there if you're disabled?

Maybe the wiimote, but that requires you to wave it around too much.

The standard non-ergonomic keyboard.
You call that a keyboard? THIS is a keyboard!

Second place: Point-and-click electronic-device-plus-finger-paradigm user-interfaces.
It's pretty hard to create something more inefficient... (as an UI. Even the command shell is faster.)

... non-ergonomic.

I'm sorry, but we live in two-thousand-fuckin'-nine! Give me a real keyboard, or at least the closest affordable thing. (Now unfortunately defunct.):

'Nuff said...

The DataHand: http://datahand.com/overview/photos.htm

Unfortunately they have stopped making those too. The next best thing
(that I have tried) is the Kinesis:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/classic.htm

DataHand: http://www.datahand.com/
Microwriter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter (Texas Instrument - 1980) - five keys PDA

I don't think they sell many of these things, and they cost too much, but people with RSIs swear by them.

Here's their webpage.

I'm typing this with one of the ultimate weird keyboards.

I have to grant you that the DX1 is pretty neat, however my personal favorite is the DataHand. The idea is to place each finger in a little well with buttons in four directions and one at the bottom so your fingers never move more than a half inch in any direction. Using the mouse is handled by switching modes which then enables each index finger to control the mouse, one finger controls slow movement and the other fast movement. One of my coworkers picked it up to help deal with his Carpal Tunnel and swears by it. I would pick one up to if they weren't so expensive.

They also sell a chair mounted version.

I have to grant you that the DX1 is pretty neat, however my personal favorite is the DataHand. The idea is to place each finger in a little well with buttons in four directions and one at the bottom so your fingers never move more than a half inch in any direction. Using the mouse is handled by switching modes which then enables each index finger to control the mouse, one finger controls slow movement and the other fast movement. One of my coworkers picked it up to help deal with his Carpal Tunnel and swears by it. I would pick one up to if they weren't so expensive.

They also sell a chair mounted version.

Yeah, keyboard shortcuts suck and no-one can remember them. That's why keys like Shift and Ctrl are so rarely used these days, particularly by experienced typists, and never in combination. :-)

Personally, I've always quite fancied trying one of these Datahand units, but obviously there's a high cost involved and quite a steep learning curve. I can well believe that when properly configured, it's much nicer for things that aren't simple typing jobs, such as programming, writing in mark-up languages like LaTeX, or playing games with complicated UIs.

It's a Professional II, just updated to the latest software version (1.8.something, with the 'windows key' and 10 macros), extra large, large & small palm pads. PS2 mouse & keyboard connectors. It's extremely clean because it's barely been used. Make an offer, I check that email address every so often.

I ended up going to an Osteopath, to straighten out my poor broken body, and I don't need it anymore.

Any program worth its salt has keyboard equivalents; she should abandon the mouse if at all possible until the true cause of (and possible cure for) her pain is discovered.

If the user is able to make that transition (some folks don't adapt to change that well) I would also recommend her looking at the Dvorak keyboard layout, and possibly a different keyboard as well (Kinesis, TypeMatrix, etc.)

Also, as another poster mentioned, there are foot solutions (Kinesis makes one, for example, though I've never tried it).

Let's all remember that the standard (US English, i.e., worldwide) keyboard layout was invented some 130 years ago, and purposefully designed to slow down the typist so they wouldn't jam the individual dyes that made up a typewriter.

August Dvorak's solution came some 60 years after that, and may have caught on except for WWII, which caused most typewriter manufacturers to switch to guns. By the time the war was over, they'd had enough of re-tooling, and here we are another 60 years later, still with a dumb layout.

Here are a couple of other links on alternative keyboard layouts, courtesy of altkeyboards:

Dvorak Tutorial: http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/

General Info: http://www.theworldofstuff.com/dvorak

Humorous History: http://dvzine.org/

Another Input Solution: http://www.datahand.com/

Best of luck to your employee. Losing the use of ones hands is like ... losing the use of ones hands. Awful!

If you want a very different keyboard/mouse, I'd suggest DataHand. It is terrible for playing games (primarily due to 8-directional mouse) but it's unlikely you'll be playing computer games if you have RSI. You only use thumbs for mode shifts and most of those can be locked on. Furthermore, you can reprogram the keys if you buy the Pro model.

I haven't used this myself, but the ErgoClick uses the palm for clicking, and thus should relieve a lot of stress from the thumb.

What's kept my RSI problems at bay for the last 13 years is the Kinesis Contoured Keyboard and a BodyBilt chair with linear tracking arms. I cannot recommend these highly enough. They have saved me from being in terrible agony every day.

The chair is rather expensive, but certainly much cheaper than either going on disability or a Vicodin addiction. The Kinesis keyboard takes a bit of getting used to, and all my friends who I have suggested it to, have initially cursed at me over the learning curve. But all of them have also later come back to me and thanked me profusely for saving them from a life of torment.

I know that some people also swear by the DataHand, but that requires a lot more relearning than even the Kinesis. I would have tried that next, however, if the Kinesis keyboard hadn't solved my woes.

|>oug

I used to work with a guy who had wrist problems, which isn't quite the same. But still, he swore by a Data Hand keyboard. I tried to use them, and well, way to weird for me. If set up properly one of the fingers will work as your mouse, so you don't need one separate. When used properly you can also type WAY fast.

Get a Data Hand instead.

I personally prefer the Kinesis Advantage Pro USB.

http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm

I think everything else is just half-baked, still narrow arm positioning, carpal-tunnel- or shoulder-tendon-killing, unergonomic non-innovation.

And still this thing (in the chair mounted version) is just the most basic thing i would accept as an innovation. More sophisicated systems should read the signals straight from nerve ends (preferably where the nerves are directly below the skin, so you don't have to change your body) or read the changes of the electromagnetic field in our brain (some kind of "telepatic" amplifier with an a/d-converter and a normal usb-connection, using a neuronal network for mattern matching on the driver layer)

Am i the only one who wonders why this isn't avaliabe yet, because all this is already possible for years...?

BTW: If anyone has venture capital: I'm willing to make it reality ASAP!

My DataHand http://www.datahand.com/ keyboard has only 50 keys, and unlike this "new standard keyboard", it really is ergonomic. Plus, it was easy to relearn and is actually faster to type on. The pro version lets me remap keys, so I guess I can remap my keyboard to the new "standard" if it ever catches on.

The reason that I never learned to properly touch-type is because the keys are not where they should be when I place my fingers on the home keys. It hurts a tiny bit to hit them in the prescribed manner. Due to arm-angle and the natural motion of the fingers, the keys are all in the wrong places... it has always seemed like they should be shifted.

Split keyboards make a little bit of progress in solving this problem by rotating the halves of the keyboard so they fit the arm angle a little better, but practically none of them do anything about relative key placement.

Switching the layouts does not address the ergonomics of arm-angle and finger motion and it causes the added problem of learning another layout which will slow you down whenever you encounter the ubiqitous QWERTY layout.

I thought it might be a genius idea to invent a split-keyboard that lines the keys up the right way in a QWERTY layout for around $100, but these guys beat me to it:

U-Geek Review: Darwin Keyboards' SmartBoard

I have no idea why they didn't license their design... It's a crying shame that they are out of business.

DataHand also solves this problem the right way, but even at 50% off, their keyboard costs $500. It might be an efficient keyboard, but it's not $500 efficient.

for the chair/input devices

http://www.datahand.com/products/datachair.htm

"chair arm mounts for datahands - split keyboard mounted on arms is very nice. Always in fine ergo position, even with feet up on desk."

No thank you. Don't trust a "technology" vendor who can't even remember to save their ASP pages as .asp.

Get a Datadesk Smartboard in black with an adapter that will work with your favourite kvm switch and you never will have to search for a replacement again until you got some $600 for your datahand ;))

• herman miller aeron - nice chair, comfortable for many hours
• datahand proII split keyboard/mouse - nice ergo keyboard, no arm strain moving to mouse and back. mouse fine for programming use, but for extended image work/CAD, would not be sensitive enough. They take a while to learn. Personal has most of the required features, and costs less. Pricing is very good right now. A bit sensitive to dust, nobody can operate your computer.
• chair arm mounts for datahands - split keyboard mounted on arms is very nice. Always in fine ergo position, even with feet up on desk.
• dual opteron 246HE, 3G RAM, tyan k8we, with newer nvidia vidcard. nice board after the week of configuration.
• gentoo gnu/linux - excellent footing, great pkg mgmt, fine community.. requires a bit of initial configuration
• eclipse - best IDE there is, with plugins, even better. Need a beast of a box to run it well.
• video
  1. current - nv twinview (2560x1024) over 17"crt and 19" lcd. LCD is Samsung 191T+. Nice, but low resolution (1280x1024)
  2. future - 19" LCD with WUXGA (1920x1200) LCD based homebrew projector on good screen in dimmed room. Should be fine for coding and good for movies/sdtv/hdtv.

All the above are no substitute for hard work, research and forethought, of course. But you'll go better for longer.

• herman miller aeron - nice chair, comfortable for many hours
• datahand proII split keyboard/mouse - nice ergo keyboard, no arm strain moving to mouse and back. mouse fine for programming use, but for extended image work/CAD, would not be sensitive enough. They take a while to learn. Personal has most of the required features, and costs less. Pricing is very good right now. A bit sensitive to dust, nobody can operate your computer.
• chair arm mounts for datahands - split keyboard mounted on arms is very nice. Always in fine ergo position, even with feet up on desk.
• dual opteron 246HE, 3G RAM, tyan k8we, with newer nvidia vidcard. nice board after the week of configuration.
• gentoo gnu/linux - excellent footing, great pkg mgmt, fine community.. requires a bit of initial configuration
• eclipse - best IDE there is, with plugins, even better. Need a beast of a box to run it well.
• video
  1. current - nv twinview (2560x1024) over 17"crt and 19" lcd. LCD is Samsung 191T+. Nice, but low resolution (1280x1024)
  2. future - 19" LCD with WUXGA (1920x1200) LCD based homebrew projector on good screen in dimmed room. Should be fine for coding and good for movies/sdtv/hdtv.

All the above are no substitute for hard work, research and forethought, of course. But you'll go better for longer.

Something like this http://www.datahand.com/

>>A keyboard would have to be absolutely
>>revolutionary, fantastic and wonderful

Perhaps something like this?
Now a mere $500, and just as revolutionarily functional as ever.
No joke, I have one for home and one at work -- saved my wrists after everything else failed :)

It has a largest variety (although not complete) of alternative input devices to help people with RSI and disabilities. In addition it has guides about RSI, workplace environment etc to help you avoid getting RSI. Nice fancy flash animations and everything.

i personally use a twiddler http://www.handykey.com/site/features.html combined mouse and keybord and find no trouble switching between it and the qwerty keybourd layout. Twiddler makes no claims about it's affects on RSI but one of the testimonials state that his RSI has been cured by switching hands

http://www.datahand.com/products/personal.htm

look at the link. It uses a layout as similar to querty as possible given the key possitioning and they have comissioned studies into RSI and their keyboard. A bit pricy though.

The only trouble i can see is if you touch-type properly (I look at the keys for qwerty but touchtype the twiddler), but I think as long as you remain practiced at both you will fond no trouble switching.

Apologies for my waffling.

although they are not expected to ship until august .. this looks like the most interesting alternative to a standard keyboard yet .. text input .. mouse .. trackball actually .. and highly programmable game controller all in one ..

http://www.alphagrip.com/index.html

also with regards to RSI the Datahand is a very good .. although expensive alternative .. even with the new pricing ..

http://www.datahand.com/

One of these days I'm going to convince myself that I actually need a datahand. The big win for coders is that you no longer need to leave homerow in order to hit the symbols...

yo umay think of getting datahand or kinesis

DataHand is where it's at. Seriously, if I ever find myself with a spare $500, I am definitely getting one of those.

Admittedly, Kinesis keyboads look cool too, but being able to type anything just by twitching your fingers in certain directions by miniscule amounts? Come on.

I am typing this on a http://datahand.com/ if you're not melded with your keyboard you are not worthy!

And yes it really helps with finger stress/fatigue, whatever you want to call it.

I just have to deal with being refered to as Edward Keyboardhands, or Keyboardstein by the co-workers.

Still a lil slower than traditional but it's worth not killing my hands.

(I bought mine on ebay but have talked to datahand reps a number of times, they're all very helpful)

Seems to me that there have been a lot of attempts made to come up with better keyboard designs - Dvorak; that alphabetical keyboards; chordic keyboards; split keyboards; weird keyboards; other weird keyboards; and so on.

Call me when one of them has broad market acceptance.

Michael

For a limited time the DataHand is actually affordable. Might want to pick up a couple.

That's a much repeated falsehood.
Besides, everyone knows that all real geeks chord.

Datahands took care of my carpal tunnel, tho I've yet to find an employer that would ever invest in one for their employees. Put 'em on the end of the arms of a good chair and there is no better.

1) Trackball you have to keep petting the damn thing, unless you have it super sensitive in which case you lose accuracy. For a solution designed to minimize hand movement making the user pet constantly vs. using an analog stick would be against the entire design philosophy.

2,3) I'm sorry, but 100$ is a mind numbingly cheap price for a low volume device for this. Let's look at some similar products. A close competitor is the DataHand which sells for 10 times that. A gesture keyboard goes for 340$. A chording keyboard/mouse replacement that's been out for many years and used by wearable people, the twiddler, is 220$. Just a half-keyboard with extra letter mappings to make up for it is 295$. All these companies aren't so expensive because they want to be, manufacturing low volume stuff like this is hideously expensive. You say you want a second version for large hands, that would raise the price even more.

I think it's always going to be necessary, if for no other reason than that the centers for recognizing speech and written words are different and expect (require?) different input. Something I dictate to my computer is going to look weird to me if I give it in natural language when I read it, or it's going to require me to speak as if I'm writing, which is a skill that's a lot more difficult than learning to type.

I do think that we're going to continue to see more and more exotic, quick, and low stress keyboards, though. Things as simple as the "natural" keyboards with the broken apart, humped design would have been freakish even as short a time ago as my childhood. Ten years from now, everyone might own a datahand, or even something more exotic.

I've had a lot of trouble with RSI through the years, sometimes to the point I couldn't button a shirt. Here are some tips--

First, though, see a doctor! If you ignore it, you risk making symptoms permanent. Treatment will speed recovery time. Keep an open mind, too-- naturopathy and massage therapy have helped me more for this than the standard HMO treatment.

As for input devices, I've had a lot of luck with the Datahand Keyboard. It's a lot of money up front, and it has a very steep learning curve, but it's absoultely amazing. Their website is http://www.datahand.com and I have only good things to say about them.

I've played with various voice recognition, including Dragon NatSpeak for Windows and iListen for Mac. They're only useful for standard conversational writing. iListen's correction utility is very dependent on mousing, too, so it may cause more trouble than it's worth.

Someone above mentioned guitar-- I play guitar quite a bit, and it actually helps my hands quite a bit because it's a much lower level of repetition, uses different motions, and larger muscle groups. (On the other hand, piano-playing makes things worse for me.) Consider some sort of hobby, but keep a close eye on how it makes you feel.

Finally, re-consider your computer use. I'm quitting my job and going back to school. Plain & simple, humans aren't designed for this. And with tech jobs going offshore, you'll have a jump start on other ex-techies.

Until recently it has taken me no time to get up and running with a new phone-- this has all changed. The samsung SCH-a310, for example, has a normal key layout but the tactile response is poor and its hard to feel the difference between keys when scanning with your fingers.

Nokia has been making some terrible design choices with their key layouts lately.. the first one I remember trying was the 3600 and the 3650. Recently they've been marketing the 3200's like crazy, which look like 1993 pager technology, albeit with a camera. I tried this one out thinking it might be easy to use, but its neigh on impossible to know what key you're hitting, then you have to make sure you hit the right SIDE of the key to get the correct number.

Now I know, after awhile you get used to it, and then when you get a new phone you need to unlearn what you have learned. But shouldn't the interface technology we use strive for ease of use and ergonomics instead of visual acceptance and clever button placement? I mean we could all be using Datahand ergonomic keyboards in the future, but somehow I doubt these new cell key layouts are for anything other than aesthetics.