Slashdot Mirror

Of course Microsoft didn't want linux on the Xbox or Xbox360 but that hasn't stopped it from happening. History teaches us that if linux hackers want linux on something and it's possible then it will eventually be done.

I don't keep up on 360 hacks but to my knowledge MS didn't have their signing key compromised though.

The only hacks I know of are messing with the DVD drive to play pirated games. Has anyone really gotten homebrew to run on that thing?

See the free60 project. Short answer: yes, but not conveniently.

As it happens, there is (at least) one ARM processor in many xbox 360 systems:

The Microsoft xbox360 wifi adapter is based on the Marvell Libertas 8388, which has an embedded ARM946 onboard. (In a curious twist, the OLPC XO-1 uses the same chipset, in order to have a core to handle mesh networking duties when the main CPU is off.)

The 10MB of "VRAM" you refer to on the xbox 360 is actually called eDRAM, and is more similar to the cache memory found in CPUs than video memory. It's often not even used, but reportedly can reduce the hit when anti-aliasing to nearly nothing. The main difference between the 360 and the ps3 in terms of memory is that the 360 GPU serves as a memory controller. Since this is the case developers can use up to about 480mb as either system memory or graphics memory - as they decide, instead of being limited to only 256mb ram, and 256mb vram on the ps3.

Your own references contradict your comparisons in memory performance. While the xbox 360 post claims 21.6GB/s FSB, the official ps3 specs allow only 20GB/s / 15GB/s for memory performance to the RSX. With a margin of only 3.4GB/s XDR hardly "DESTROYS" the ddr3 either... especially if the latency is considerably higher, the main weapon in the RAMBUS arsenal is raising clock speed with latency.

Using GTA IV as an example proves a point against a lot of folks trying to use a single game to determine which console can provide a superior experience. Rockstar has never been concerned with having high quality graphics; while #4 was certainly a step in the right direction rockstar simply doesn't understand how to make a proper 3d engine.

Both the PS3 and the xbox 360 are locked down. Let me know when you can run backups of your chipped blu-ray discs. I'll be running linux on my 360 whenever I complete the JTAG hack and read the NAND. http://www.free60.org/ is a great resource for some the "homebrew" hacks, you should check into it.

I kindly direct you to this web page....

http://www.free60.org/Main_Page?title=Wiki/Main_Page

There is all kinds of homebrew on the 360.

Now I am not saying that 99.9999% of the people who mod a 360 do not do it for the purpose of piracy, but there are people who do like to mod things to do things besides piracy.

I think those who complain about how hard it is to do this underestimate the draw of a good challenge. I'm tempted to free mine, but I use it for gaming too much.

As to what to do with this one:
Step 1: Do not connect to XBOX Live
Step 2: Do not download Summer 09 update
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

In this case, Step 3 is "try Free60." And step 3.5 is "use XBOX360 as a Linux machine."

You let me know when Microsoft starts selling Macs or Linux boxes

MS sold hardware that can run Linux, it's called Xbox and Xbox 360.

...or you can imagine a situation where console still contain very weird innovations, but still provide a simple common layer.

Games are either manufacturer-exclusive and exploit all special bells-and-whistles (original new controller, clever usage of the steam coprocessors or whatever) or games target a special set of API and hardware capabilities that exist across all major player.

The concept is somewhat similar to what currently happens with some developing toolset that let developers cross compile software for several consoles (id software's next engine which works on PC, XBox 360 and Playstation with one single toolset is such an example).

The only difference is that current such tools are done by 3rd party, have to be acquired separately, and finally produce console-specific disc wich bundles game data with console-specific runtime layer, whereas EA's idea could be implemented if every console offered in it's firmware a "standarised environment".
It could be something similar to what smart phones (and to some extend, the interactive capabilities of high definition disc players are doing) are already doing : most of them have different and specific hardware and OS platform (Symbian, Linux, Windows CE, Palm OS, ...) but all have Java MIDP which can be targeted as a standard unified platform, it doesn't provide all the niceties of native binary but is the kind of "one target to rule them all" that developer are looking for.

In the console realm, an open-source stack based around Linux + SDL + OpenGL + some scripting language (like python's pygame. Or better Parrot Bytecode engine for more language flexibility) could provide such a unified target. Specially since some console already have linux (PS3, PS2) and other are getting it hacked in (Wii) or have already had (Xbox 360, DS, PSP (somewhat. An uCLinux proof-of-concept currently),XBox, GameCube, Dreamcast... )

Actually, in contrary of what they think, allowing linux on the consoles could somewhat drive piracy down. Currently both pirated games, linux and homebrew all share the same need to circumvent the cryptographic locks that exist inside consoles (either to crack the games, or just to be able to run their own non-signed code). So efforts are shared among all those groups.
If Linux gets an official support from companies, the linux community won't need modchips and such anymore, and in addition to commercial game developers looking for a standard platform, homebrewer will get a platform they can target too, without needing to circumvent cryptography. Thus less efforts go into the development of methods to circumvent the cryptographic lock around vendor specific platform for games.

The only draw back is that cross-platform developers targeting Linux for commercial games won't benefit any more from the copy protection provided by the cryptographic locks and will have to either invent other protections that will work on this standard platform (cue in StarFuck and all associated problems), count on log-ins for on-line games or accept risk and take into account the possibility of being easily copied.

And you would be INCORRECT. It is currently not possible to run unsigned homebrew within the VM however it IS possible to break the VM and run *native* Linux if you have an older firmware flash. Efforts are underway to further break the platform and while it's got a ways to go it's slowly getting there - yeah I bought a couple of 360 with the old flash just for this but I'll admit I've not done much with them. I actually updated one but the other is being reserved for whatever hacking trouble I can get into with it down the road. :-) I own multiple older XBOX with XBMC on them as multimedia boxes and am hoping to do the same with the 360 or the new XBMC Linux port.

Suggested reading http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page

Linux already runs on the 360, http://www.free60.org/.

• Homebrew/Linux emerging on XBox360

The free60 project ( http://free60.org/ ) has been trying to run Linux on the Xbox360 since it came out, with no success. Microsoft has definitely gone out of their way to prevent this.

Look around the free60 wiki. For instance, from this page (http://wiki.free60.org/HDD) the Xbox360 will only use hard drives that have a Microsoft PNG logo stored in a certain location on them. For someone trying to boot Linux off the hard drive, in addition to the technical hurdles of hacking the OS they also have to wrestle with trademark infringement. The trademark infringement is no big deal for an individual, but it becomes a problem if they try to redistribute their code for other people to do the same thing.

Microsoft absolutely has gone out of their way to prevent people from doing whatever they want with an Xbox 360. Microsoft is a business, they exist to make a profit. The main way to profit from a game console is for people to buy lots of games. Someone using the machine for an alternative operating system is less likely to do that. So they locked it down. I don't think it's bad - this particular business decision is perfectly understandable - but it is true.

W00T!
what? no mention of http://free60.org?
anyway i try to go there and the wiki seems slashdotted or maybe just slow.
Coralized Link --> http://wiki.free60.org.nyud.net:8080/

I don't expect 360 to have linux, even unofficially, supported before the wii. Without MS help, I don't see the guys of free60 succeeding before 720 is released(maybe not even before 1080). I think nintendo suggested a linux second OS for the wii just like the ps3.

"A marathon where you're bleeding money for most of the race"

If each sale of a console costs Microsoft money, it is our duty to buy one and get gnu/linux or *BSD running on it.

Linux on 360 project

Sorry for my bad english. I meant dying.
check Free60

The original Xbox HDD was password-locked to the machine, and used a custom filesystem loosely based on FAT. On the 360, they deliberately didn't lock the drive, not even with a common password. They didn't even bother to change the filesystem. No encryption, no obfuscation, nothing.

MS obviously knew the HDD would be one of the first lines of attack, yet they made no particular effort to secure its contents - in fact, they actually reduced the protection. Why would they do that?

This time round, they have a far more secure model (motherboard communication is encrypted, kernel ram is checksummed, and the per-box keys & hypervisor are built into the CPU itself, where it can't be extracted with anything less than an electron microscope). If they left the HDD exposed, it's because they didn't care if it was modded; they clearly feel confident that it can't compromise the rest of the system. Time will tell, of course, but as useful as Xplorer360 is, it's hardly a great step towards running homebrew code.

Just wait and see... http://www.free60.org/ ... (but i dont really see the point to install linux to every piece of hardware that looks slightly similar to a computer (like xbox, toasters, lizards, broomsticks and so on and so forth...))

The real bright side of this is that Xbox hacking has already started at http://www.free60.org/

It has already been done with the original Xbox and if the flaws that allowed Linux to be ran http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Current_events are any indication of Microsofts security framework then running linux on the 360 should be possible soon.

You see, if M$ can be $ucce$$ful in pu$hing this onto the public under the guise of beeing imparitive for security, M$ would have a (seemingly) solid strategy to against Linux, *BSD, any open source OS. I'm sure that you all can see that this type of technology would be pretty much impossible to impliment securely in an open source OS (since everything is open to scrutiny and USER configuration). I seroiously hope M$ does this, as it will blow up in thier faces when the security of the mechanisim is comprimised(as was noted earlier), creating an enoromous failure on thier part. Imagine the embarrasment of this happening after M$ hypes and markets the SHIT out of this having IMPENITRABLE security. It would be the end of M$. So....BRING IT ON BILLY! (by the way if you haven't been paying attention, the 360 is the beta of this.....I'll keep a keen eye on http://www.free60.org/)

looks as though the hard drive filesystem has also been hacked, see the free60's project web site: http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page, someone care to submit this as a story? i'm to lazy to do so

Copy protections on the discs themselves is just one part of the much larger puzzle. As someone pointed out earlier you have to be able to get unsigned code to run on the machine. While this was fairly easy to accomplish on the original Xbox, the Xbox 360 is supposed to be a trusted computing platform. It looks as though there's alot to overcome in getting unsigned code to run.

You can checkout Xbox Scene, or Free60.org for information.

Well, Right, as I said, AT MOST that is available to dev is two cores, one is for OS, hypervisor, doing checksums, misc CP,audio, etc.... OK, been looking into this a little bit, in addition to the arstechnica article mentioned earlier, the best efforts break the 360 can be found on
http://softlife.blogspot.com/ This guy seems like a pretty knowlegable guy
and
http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page

OR... you could (like me, being an XBOX360 developer and all) read the XBOX technical documentation, and discover that he's talking out of his ass.

At this point, nobody has figured out how to do it. So, right now, lots of work is required to hack the box. It looks like they turned the security dial up to 11 this time around ...

Most of what is known is based on speculation at this point; you can find a good collection of the information available here:
- http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page

Well, Right, as I said, AT MOST that is available to dev is two cores, one is for OS, hypervisor, doing checksums, misc CP,audio, etc.... OK, been looking into this a little bit, in addition to the arstechnica article mentioned earlier, the best efforts break the 360 can be found on
http://softlife.blogspot.com/ This guy seems like a pretty knowlegable guy
and
http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page Of course, the main project to get linux up and running, got some pretty decent technical breakdowns - looks like they are using the NAND flash for boot!!! On the surface, this is very encouraging but I still thing they will find some very difficult secure booting obsticles (key could be stored on cpu etc) Hell they did this with the hidden rom in the xbox.
Sorry to ramble, but all this CP and TC crap reminds me of the simstim decks in neuromancer that had all of the electronics embedded in a near indestructible epoxy like compound, that would zero the software if any xray or sonic scans were done to examine the device. (Which in themselves remind me of IBM's secure cryptoprocessors) And yeah, I agree, getting Linux running will have limited benefit in utilizing cheap hardware. The benefit will be dealing a SERIOUS blow to Treacherous Computing (the xbox 360 is the beta, guys, believe it)

This might have been true for the original XBox, but the XBox 360 is based on a "Trusted Computing" model which appears to be pretty hard to hack. It includes hardware based security to ensure that nothing which hasn't been signed/approved by Microsoft will run on the box. There are efforts to hack the thing but success has not been seen yet. I wouldn't count on a lot of help from "hackers" in fixing problems with this device. It looks like for the foreseeable future, it's MS or no one..

For the record, it's www.free60.org, not free360.org.

I like the FAQ wiki discussion better:

Q: Is the Xbox 360 dangerous?
A: If the Xbox 360 console falls and hits someone, especially a small child, it could cause serious injury.

Q: Have you guys modded the Xbox360 yet?
A: No, not yet.

Even running a screensaver involves two processes, one to generate the display and one to write it to the hardware (the system in 'Doze and X11 in most other places).

If you have half a dozen browser windows open, odds are that half of them have Flash plugins doing stuff, so you have one core working on each Flash plugin and the fourth displaying the visible ones, plus background processes (LAN answering ARP requests, email program checking for more spam, and (on Wintendos) adware fetching next blandishment) squeezing in wherever they can. Meaning that you would benefit from having two CPUs - eight cores - at this point.

Maybe that's why the XboX360 has so many cores? They're pre-empting an onslaught of spyware...