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For an out-of-the-box MythTV product, check out this company: http://mythic.tv/index.php/dragon-v2-0.html. They essentially make a MythTV appliance. Even still, a lot of the MythTV focused linux distros are making a MythTV build more of an appliance experience. KnoppMyth, MythDora, and MythBuntu are all good options that allow you to get a MythTV system up and running in very little time. Personally, I use MythDora, and it has really made upgrading my MythTV system much easier. I used first install Fedora, and then install all of the packages on top, and then configure everything. Early on it was full day affair. Now you can go from a blank hard drive to watching tv in less than an hour. You don't really have to "roll your own" with MythTV anymore. You might also have luck with some of the other DIY DVR/Media Center solutinos like Windows Media Center, SageTV, ReplayTV, etc. Not familiar with those too much so can't comment on how they compare to MythTV.

Honestly, though, I am having a harder time justifying spending the time and money on my MythTV system from a DVR standpoint. As I see it, the DVR is really just a short term way of "hacking" live tv until we can we have a good on-demand solution. Every day we seem to get closer and closer to not needing live tv at all. Between Netflix Instant Watch, Hulu, all of the TV network's own sites, and more and more Internet only content, why pay for live tv anymore if you have a decent internet connection. But I'm not about to throw out my hardware just yet. I see my MythTV system slowly migrating to something more like Boxee. Where instead of recording shows, I stream TV from multiple internet sources through a common interface that can be controlled easily from my couch.

You know what else Intel GPUs have in common? They're generally shitty for playing games.

I've never got a straight answer on this one: Is Intel's GMA 950, used in several entry-level PCs, shittier in general than the Hollywood GPU in Wii consoles?

I don't know, but even if not, the market for PC games that look like Wii games(casual "flash" bejeweled-type games notwithstanding, since their needs are generally nil compared to even the lowest-end decade-old XP machine) is small to the point of statistical anomaly.

MythTV (to use an example I am familiar with) is powerful, but setting it up is not for the faint of heart.

Then what is preventing someone from building and selling MythTV boxes? Is it just the MPEG and Dolby patents?

Nope. It's been done. They are just extremely expensive compared to the big corp black boxes.

More importantly, how many Mario Kart/Smash Bros/Mini Game collections exist on the PC anyway?

For these to exist, there would have to be a larger HTPC market.

Typical chicken-and-egg issue then, but the problem is not technological. All of the problems with connecting HTPCs to TVs you cite, both HD and SD, are already solved

Unfortunately the media mafiaa would come at any manufacturer selling Mythboxes with all guns blazing.

You mean like these, or guys, or maybe these, or guys?

You're right that microsoft's solutions are over engineered. Or more accurately, engineered for the wrong problem. Apple has the idea with simple dumb parts that work together seamlessly. (iTV is dumb though. No record? And YouTube? Geez, that's lame.) The software isn't quite right though.
Apple has the right hardware, but not the right software. Microsoft has neither.

I don't think people prefer to build things themselves. Yes, there's masochists that do, but most people don't. MythTV is cool because it's a dvr that let's me actually do whatever it is i want to with the stored shows, as opposed to tivo. But do I really want to dwell over a bunch of hardware that I don't know if its supported and how well? Hell, I don't even like doing that with a desktop. (wlan cards and wpa anyone?) Yeah I know there's a reference system but it's big, ugly, and two years old.

Windows Home Server was DOA, like every other MS in the home idea except the xbox, and even that has never moved passed the initial hook of being a gaming platform.

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

Yes

As mentioned in the first thread, Mythic.TV sells the Dragon. It's a fully working computer and MythTV setup in a HTPC form factor (looks like a piece of stereo equipment) that is based on KnoppMyth. It's pretty nice looking and is apparently very quiet. It's pricey though (over $1k), but all the hard work has been done for you. A great way to make MythTV accessible to those who don't have the Linux know-how.

Personally, I really enjoyed building my MythTV system. For me, it's always an ongoing project, but that's because I always have new ideas I want to try out. That's the great thing about MythTV. If you can dream it, you can do it (or at least try to).

If you don't want to mess with drivers and hunting everything down, and want a MythTV box that JUST WORKS, get or build a Dragon. http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44 The specs about what is in the box are open - you are welcome to build your own, or you can just pay the guys at StormLogic your money and they will custom build the box and ship it out to you. I bought one of their boxes and am happy customer. I'm watching dual-channel HDTV over the air and as a loyal Tivo customer for over 5 years, I have to say this is one of the BEST purchases I've made. Being able to customize it later once you get braver with linux is just icing on the cake.

what's to legally stop you from changing the format and just saving it in MPEG4

It might be a couple more years till someone gets around to doing it

Okay, I know that I'm a lot more technical than the general masses out there, but it took me all of 10 - 15 minutes to get Knoppmyth set up and working. I had a spare computer lying around, so I bought a Hauppauge PVR 350. I did have to tweak the sound a bit to get it to work right away after booting, and I did have some bad memory that I replaced (lock ups were not fun).

I enjoy being able to log my server usage with MRTG though. I'd like to see if Tivo can set up SNMP traps.

I will say that at the moment, Tivo is going to be a lot easier for the "moms and grandmas" out there to set up. Heck, they'd probably still need someone to set that up. There are pre-installed MythTV solutions though. http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44 Is one such product. It's definitely more than Tivo, but at the moment there's no need for a monthly fee.

So, Tivo is currently more user friendly to set up. That could change if more people start offering comparable MythTV setups at comparable prices though.

Wow, I -am- amazed. From that page:

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44
From KnoppMyth boot to MythTV in just 17 minutes!

Wow! That's only like 15 minutes longer than my HD DVR takes! Amazing!

For the case, here's a PC looking case, or a couple of more AV friendly cases by Zalman or a nice Silverstone that's almost indistinguishable from AV equipment.

As for regarding MythTV, if you buy your parts according to the Dragon reference system, you shouldn't have any issues whatsoever, although you may be spending a few more bucks than if you're willing to spend your own time working with a custom configuration of lowest $ parts.

And lastly, let me agree with the Mac Mini. It's slick!

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&prod ucts_id=44

A full system built with HDTV support.

Mythtv can do all of those things. My Mythtv box:

1. Can view photos (Mythphoto)

2. Can play just about any video format (Mythvideo menu+xine+codecs) from anywhere

3. Can play video and audio remotely (NFS/SAMBA)

4. I can watch my tv from any room with a networked computer (on account of mythtv's client-server architecture).

5. Can get RSS feeds

6. Can check my email (thru plugin)

7. Can download torrents directly into my dvr (through plugin)

8. Cool weather monitor thingie

9. With my Hauppauge PVR350+150 (both of which work beautifully using the linux ovtv drivers) and their hardware based MPEG-2 decoding/encoding, I can build my DVR using a throwaway P-III and still get flawless performance. Plus, with 2 framegrabbers I get picture-in picture, watch one show while recording another, and all that cool stuff that commercial DVR's advertise about on tv.

10. Can rip dvd's and encode/burn recodrings to dvd through the interface itself

11. No silly proprietary video formats or vendor lock-ins.

12. I can expand storage whenever I want however I want (add hard drives locally or use remote file server)

13. I have read about people with more versatile configs, like a cheap machine as frontend to the tv but the backend running on a more powerful workhorse networked smoothly with the frontend etc.

14. Mythweb. Nuff said. Can config and even stream my tv/recordings over the internet.

15. Mythtv interface is completely customizable and themable and you can tweak it (xml files mostly, fairly straightforward and doesn;t require much geekiness) and make it as friendly as you want. Actually, the OSD is pretty good and well-designed. Once you get everything to work it run smooth as silk. I haven't had to fiddle with my box in months.

The one thing that mythtv can't do at present (at least, as of version 0.18.2) is connect to somewhere and use programs to extrapolate my viewing habits (which i believe TiVo does do), but that will change as developers are working on possible solutions (mythrecommend, cheap services like TiVo that are mythtv compatible etc)

That, and the fact that it took me a week to get everything to work right (this was last october, Knoppmyth was still R5A16, may have improved since then:main problem was that my hauppauge pvr350 remote would't work unless I compiled latest lirc from scratch for infrared, then had to config keybindings manually:Cecil the Knoppmyth devel guy may have fixed those issues by now), even with KnoppMyth it wasn't easy

If you're willing to hash out the $$$, you can buy prebilt mythtv boxen:

http://mythic.tv/

To see some really cool mythtv boxen (high-def mythtv boxen etc.) check this out:
http://www.mythtvtalk.com/forum/album_cat.php?cat_ id=1

"20 minute install and 10 minutes to configure."

Or 17 minutes to install and (mostly auto-)configure on reference hardware: http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

There is even a pre-built KnoppMyth system you can buy.

There are a few companies out there offering solutions on a small scale. Not the best deal, but if you want support you pay for support. https://monolithmc.com/catalog.php http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&prod ucts_id=44&osCsid=1adfce851bdfddf0bd199eded2ddf5eb Personally I'd just build my own on KnoppMyth and be done with it, but whatever floats your boat.

Dragon gives you surround sound, over a single optical or coaxial cable. In fact, any PC that has a sound card with an S/PDIF connector will.

Very savvy consumers will hack together ["PC-TV hybrid"] setups themselves.

Yes, we are indeed building them ourselves. However, we are doing so primarily because we can't find what we want on sale anywhere for any price. The below is an adapted version of a recent Usenet post of mine describing what I have come to daily take for granted with my high-definition MythTV setup:
------------
. . . MythTV works, and works well, for those who are interested in a "HD TiVo" without any of TiVo's limitations. I must admit to chuckling whenever I see a question in alt.tv.tech.hdtv or elsewhere asking how to record from a HD video source with a computer in terms that make it clear the poster and the respondents view the task as something akin to cavemen discovering fire.

I work long, long hours and, when I get home, often don't have any more energy left to do more than want to just relax in front of the tube. When I do so, I want to have as much choice in what to watch as possible. Let me tell one and all of what I with 100% reliability do with my MythTV setup every day:

• Push a button on the remote[1] to wake the 47" 1080p[2] LCD panel[3] from its DPMS slumber.
• Pick from a gigantic library[4] of high-definition programs that MythTV constantly adds to[5] based on my choices.[6]
• While playing the program, rewind, fast-forward, and jump to arbitrary points as desired. I can also adjust the playback speed anywhere from 0.5X to 2X without affecting audio pitch.[7]
• I can push a button to instantly and accurately skip over commercials.[8] If I've gone too far, another button will skip me back to the previous spot.
• If I exit a recording, the next time I watch it the playback will continue where I left off.[9]
• If I ever need to restart MythTV, pushing a button on my remote twice within three seconds will cause it to do so.[10]
• If I want, I can run MythTV on my MacBook and watch the exact same programs[11] with the exact same elegant and attractive user interface.[12]
• All this time, MythTV is silently recording yet more for me to watch.[13]

If any of this intrigues you, I recommend visiting:

• The MythTV Wiki and the mythtv-users mailing list archive, the two largest repositories of MythTV knowledge.
• The terrific Fedora Core-based installation guide I used.
• A well-regarded MythTV reference design for those who want to either buy it off the shelf from the vendor or build it themselves. I'm neither a customer nor an employee; all I did for my own setup was buy a Sony Pentium 4 system on sale at Fry's then add the video card, ATSC capture card, gigabit Ethernet card, remote, and NAS. However, in retrospect, there's something to be said for buying at once all the parts except the NAS in one convenient, already-integrated form.

[1] Home Theater Master MX-500 universal remote. I programmed it using a $30 infrared keyboard/mouse combo.

[2] MythTV does an *excellent* job of deinterlacing 1080i recordings into 1080p for those displays that can handle it. Any Nvidia video card from the FX5200 to the present will work.

[3] Westinghouse LVM-47W1. Under $2500 from Crutchfield for 1080p LCD goodness.

[4] MythTV tells me that I have "242 programs, using 1.7 TB (427 hrs 33 mins) out of 1.8 TB (54 GB fr

The founder of KnoppMyth had similar issues when he was first installing MythTV, which is why he made KnoppMyth http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html. On Dragon http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44 reference hardware, time between inserting the KnoppMyth CD and actually running MythTV can be as little as 21 minutes, and most of that time is spent waiting for automatic processes to finish. There's very little interaction required on the part of the user.

Knoppmyth, the MythTV distro built around Knoppix, publishes some "reference platforms" spec that they promise to support fairly well in all future versions, and which get the job done fairly nicely. They have only published one system so far ("Dragon"), a single-tuner box. You can either buy it pre-assembled and installed for $1450, or get all the components individually for about $1200 minus whatever parts you might already have.

I happened to have an extra hard drive and dvd drive lying around, so I bought the rest of the spec mostly from NewEgg and built a Dragon myself, and haven't had any hardware problems so far. It holds up under the load of recording one stream and watching another off the hard drive just fine, and their attention to noise level means that even though I didn't put in the recommended extra-quiet CPU fan, the box itself is inaudible when I'm actually watching anything. Highly recommended for anyone who wants a Linux-based HTPC, either pre-built or from scratch.

Knoppmyth, the MythTV distro built around Knoppix, publishes some "reference platforms" spec that they promise to support fairly well in all future versions, and which get the job done fairly nicely. They have only published one system so far ("Dragon"), a single-tuner box. You can either buy it pre-assembled and installed for $1450, or get all the components individually for about $1200 minus whatever parts you might already have.

I happened to have an extra hard drive and dvd drive lying around, so I bought the rest of the spec mostly from NewEgg and built a Dragon myself, and haven't had any hardware problems so far. It holds up under the load of recording one stream and watching another off the hard drive just fine, and their attention to noise level means that even though I didn't put in the recommended extra-quiet CPU fan, the box itself is inaudible when I'm actually watching anything. Highly recommended for anyone who wants a Linux-based HTPC, either pre-built or from scratch.

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

preconfigured and ready to go......

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

Well...

There are a few companies doing just that. The prices are much more than 299 though. It would be cheaper to build it yourself, or even to find a friendly linux geek who will do it for kicks for you, or for a little bit of money.

You'd still have to put out for the parts.

I'm purchasing my own bits and pieces to build a MythTV box little by little. It does take some time, but I think it'll be worth it in the end.

H.

I hear a lot of people talking about this, but I've never seen an implementation that works as well as Tivo. Take MythTV for example. This is a group that has tried to make an easy to install linux distro based on knoppix and MythTV.

http://mysettopbox.tv/

They even are working on producing a reference system to make it super easy.

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

On this page they also detail a whole list of problems with their "reference" system. Some of these issues are minor...others like not being able to watch live tv are in my opinion major.

My point here is that despite what people say, the home brew PVR is not easy to do. I know I've tried. I've also had friends who have tried. Furthermore, many people who claim it's easy to do typically do so by making serious sacrifices. I've seen and experienced a wide array of issues. Some of these issues are related to playback...both audio and video. For example there can be crap on the screen, sometimes the playback stutters, sometimes the audio is out of sync, etc. In the case of my friends who said they got it working, I went over there to watch TV and they had all sorts of issues getting stuff to play (similar to things I experienced).

In the case of the system detailed above (with more people working on it for more time than I'd care to spend) they still lack the basic function of watching live tv.

Contrast with Tivo where you plug it in and it just works. Granted a homebrew HTPC has potential, but as of yet I've not seen that potential realized.

Sure thing. From the Dragon product page:

As of this writing, the HD Tivo is only offered through DirecTV, and their HD service requires special equipment and costs $10.99 month in addition to their standard service. On top of that, the HD Tivo costs $549 after rebate and has a monthly Program Guide fee of $5.99. $50 extra gets you a "local channel kit" which is an off-the-air antenna. The cost of all of this for the first year is $802.76 for a specialized, locked-down system that only stores up to 30 hours of HD content.

When you consider the fact that an HD Tivo is a specialized piece of equipment that you cannot modify, cannot use for general-purpose computing, and it brings with it a monthly expense, the value Dragon offers becomes clear by contrast.

Dragon has no ongoing fees, it stores a minimum(*) of 28 hours of HD content, and it is a powerful general-purpose computer built with off-the-shelf components. If you decide you no longer want to use MythTV on Dragon, you can turn Dragon into a workstation, a desktop PC, a file server, or put another PVR suite on it. It's your choice. If you decide that you no longer want to use your HD Tivo, you have no such options.

(*) based on partition sizes of auto-installed KnoppMyth and 1080i content, with no other data using up HDD space

Try this out

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

You can buy the box from them, or build it yourself (as I am doing).

http://mythic.tv/ sells exactly that in their Dragon box. They also sell everything you need to just slot together a box to your specs, and pledge that everything will work out of the box with KnoppMyth. The guys who run the site are very active in supporting the MythTV community, and have been doing it for a while.

If you still connect your DVD player to a television set using a composite or even a S/Video connector, odds are that you'll see no improvement with digital television. But if you connect your DVD player up to your monitor using component video, and want your television programs to be displayed with the same level of detail and accuracy, you can buy a ATSC tuner, set it for 480i or 480p (depending on your existing set's sophistication), Connect the spdif out to a suitable input on your stereo, and enjoy "5.1" surround sound.

Now, it won't match the detail of a 720p or 1080i set, but upgrading your display can wait, if it has to, On the other hand, if all you have is an old set with composite or RF connectors, maybe upgrading your display would be in your best interest.

I plan to build a MythTV box soon, with an HD-3000, and possibly an Air2PC card as well. Anyway, I don't plan on upgrading my TV/display for a while after that; I will connect to my SDTV via S-Video for the time being.

Can an HDTV stream be displayed on an SDTV from a myth box via S-Video? Obviously it wouldn't be at HD resolutions, but am I correct in figuring that the quality would approximate that of a DVD player output to SDTV via S-Video (which looks quite a bit better than analog cable)? Has anyone done this? Any other special hardware requirements (aside from S-Video out, which is obvious)? Scaling or conversion (digital-->analog) issues?

There's also the Air2PC card, which will do HDTV and is supported under Linux.

I recently bought a pcHDTV card, and I must say I'm disappointed so far. I don't yet have HDTV capabilities (haven't decided between buying an antenna or paying the $5/mo extra for the HD decoder box from Comcast), and the NTSC tuner is piss-poor. The picture is fuzzy, and the colors are all off (and I still can't get it right, even after hours of tweaking the color settings).

Note that the Air2PC and the pcHDTV (with driver patches) both support QAM, so it's possible to decode *unencrypted* cable signals. Unfortunately, until we have cablecard-capable hardware, we're not going to be able to decrypt encrypted cable stations. And by the time we have that, we'll have the broadcast flag to contend with...

I agree that that timetable for the analog->digital TV switchover in the US will probably be extended further, considering that prices for HDTV sets is still generally much more than that for regular sets - and they don't seem to be dropping quickly enough. Most CRT HDTVs will run you 3-4x the cost of a normal CRT TV. Good-sized LCD and plasma TVs are still out of reach for the average consumer (and even above-average consumer). I just don't see US consumers rushing out to replace their TVs, and D/A downconverters are likely pretty expensive too (so people can watch reduced-quality digital broadcasts on their analog TVs).

pcHDTV 3000 from here

Air2PC from here or here

2. When you're ready, build a computer for MythTV. Use this guide, look here for HDTV tips, and ask questions on this mailing list. You can also search for answers on the mailing list archive.

3. You say that Myth isn't all you want. I think you're wrong. Here's what it can do:

It can record analog content from cable, satellite, and over-the-air broadcasts.

It can record digital content from over-the-air broadcasts, including HDTV.

It can record unencrypted digital content over firewire from some digital cable boxes.

Using free tools that come with MythTV, you can cut commercials and export any recording from MythTV to a number of different formats, including Divx, Xvid, VCD, SVCD, and DVD.

4. Here's what it can't do:

Myth can't record encrypted digital content from digital cable or digital satellite. Keep in mind that no PC-based solution can do this. The only possible ways to do record content from these sources in digital format are to use a black-box solution (usually) provided by the cable or satellite company or to put on your black hacker hat and crack the encryption. If you choose the former, odds are slim and none that you will be able to export the recordings.

I also run Gentoo, but an easier to set up distribution would be KnoppMyth
http://mysettopbox.tv/

also there are Air2PC cards that can also be used for HDTV like pcHDTV3000, but you will have to wait until April to get one.
http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=33

Air2PC

pcHDTV 3000
This card is the successor to the original pcHDTV 2000. Its chipset allows you to record either standard over-the-air NTSC or digital over-the-air ATSC. I believe that drivers are in the works to allow you to record unencrypted QAM channels from digital cable.

Air2PC
This newer card allows you to record digital over-the-air ATSC. It allows you to record unencrypted QAM channels from digital cable.

From what I've heard, there's no clear winner for which of these two cards is better. The pcHDTV 3000 can be purchased at the pcHDTV web site for $189. The Air2PC is on sale here for $169. If you plan to purchase, do so before July 2005. After that date, it's questionable at best whether they will still be sold.

Search the MythTV user group mailing list archives for more information about these cards and support in MythTV.