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Except if you're looking for FOSS OS laptop, where do you take it?

http://system76.com/

Except if you're looking for FOSS OS laptop, where do you take it?

I haven't tried this place yet, but they look promising: System76.com.

http://system76.com/ Great laptops, reasonable prices, Ubuntu ships on the beasts. What more could you ask for?

I want a good Linux laptop so bad - one preloaded with all the internet, office, music and video acquisition apps, and so forth, designed from the get-go to run fast and efficient.

Have you looked at System76?

Absolutely! Everyone on Slashdot should be added to a "no-buy" list. They are much more likely to open up their Dell and pour chocolate sauce inside.

I have a simple solution to this issue.

check out system 76. all ubuntu prebuilts. and i hear their support is excellent.

Here's my dream configuration:
Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo processor T5600 (2MB Cache/1.83GHz/667MHz FSB)
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Edition version 7.04
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display with TrueLife(TM)(glossy)
MEMORY 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM
HARD DRIVE 80GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
OPTICAL DIVE 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
$1,213 Total

This is the same configuration I have for my desktop except my desktop has dual displays running Slackware. I will have to save for a while to afford this. I configured similar systems on http://system76.com/ and they were about $100 to $200 more. I am a backend enterprise Java developer so I need lots of RAM. My deskop was about $400 with reused optical drives and hard disks. That was the processor, RAM, motherboard, and power supply. Unfortunately it looks like I'll be stranded on the desktop for a while until I can afford one these types of systems. I will get one as soon as I can afford it though.

Why did you buy some random system from a retail store when there are tons of vendors like http://www.system76.com/ that actually offer well supported Ubuntu systems? The Dells are going to be great for having something to recommend to people who are mainstream-brand obsessed, but they're not all that's out there for Ubuntu systems.

well said. like 80% of the the "OMFG i need help" posts to every linux forum is from a n00b with one of the following:

• arbitrary USB device (scanners mostly)
• winmodem built into laptop (not so much nowadays)
• wifi card built into laptop
• 3d video card

i could survive with no modem, but wifi is a deal killer. i have two machines that i figured would always be windows: my gaming rig and my laptop. if i could get a working laptop with linux pre-installed and working (and a financing program! did you hear that?) that would be one less windows machine in the house.

Hardware pre-loaded with Linux and guaranteed to work has been available from smaller vendors for years now. About a year ago, I bought a mac-mini clone with Ubuntu pre-loaded from System76, and it's been a faithful entertainment hub and file server ever since. Plus, System76 is very responsive to support requests (they participate in the official Ubuntu forums), regularly offer updates to make sure the new Ubuntu releases work perfectly with their hardware, and more.

So while it's nice to see a major retailer opening up to Linux, they aren't the first "guaranteed hardware" solution for Linux by far.

Somebody wake me up when they've put their prices out there. The bottom line to me is, how does it compare/contrast with the competition? Can I get more bang for my buck from Dell than I could from System76?

but I don't think Linux is quite there yet for the average user.

The only "there yet" step that has yet to occur is to be a promoted choice from vendors like Dell. Any normal user can buy a machine from a vendor like http://www.system76.com/ today with Ubuntu pre-installed, and it will serve their needs as well as a Mac would.

(it may be a bitch to setup, but once it's working and configured, it's golden)

You're going to have to make a more coherent argument than a simple google search, especially one where the first hit actually explains how MacOSX is POSIX complient and based on FreeBSD and NeXTStep, both of which are bonified unicies. So unless your argument is "If it looks like a duck and quacks like duck, it must be rock," then try again.

My hardware is supported.

I've never seen hardware 100% supported under linux.

Wireless drivers that don't support WPA

Graphics cards that don't support 3d acceleration.

Kernels having to be patched for usb support.

Hell, I had to actually patch (i.e. modify the source) to get linux to recognize my digital camera (a Sony DSC-F707)

even though it was supported as a simple usb storage device.

(The patch was incrementing a hex number in unusualdevs.h. Simple yes, but completely unacceptable.) Modules that refuse to insert automatically.

It is hard to build a laptop at Newegg, but that doesn't mean that you're out of options and must resort to buying from HP or Dell.

It's possible to buy a whitebox laptop and drop in all the technician-serviceable parts yourself. It's annoying, so I personally try to avoid it.

There are also a number of independent vendors who are happy to sell high quality laptops to Linux users. Some, like http://www.system76.com/ actually sell laptops with Linux installed. Others, like http://www.powernotebooks.com/ sell OS-less laptops and are happy to service machines with Linux installed.

Most people immediately respond "but Dell laptops are cheaper". Three points:
- First, the price difference isn't that large. Start at System76 or PowerNotebooks and pick the system that you want. Then recreate the exact same hardware configuration on the HP/Dell/Lenovo site and compare the prices. Going the other way is harder because the independent vendors have a smaller selection, but it's extremely unlikely that PowerNotebooks doesn't stock a machine that fits your needs.
- Second, if you buy from System76, you *know* your hardware works with Ubuntu (since it comes pre-installed). No janky wireless drivers, no too-new sound card that won't be supported until the next kernel revision. If you buy from PowerNotebooks, it's not quite as good - but they have a Linux support forum where you can discuss your issues with other users (and the owner of the company who watches the forums closely).
- You get what you pay for. Dell brand wireless is $10 cheaper than Intel wireless for a reason. Other components, like power supplies / battery packs / LCD screens are harder to compare because they aren't independently branded. The independent vendors compete on the quality of those components whereas the large vendors will cut every corner they can get away with. I mean - HP won't even post a battery life estimate for its laptops.

Translation: Gateway and Dell definitely won't honor the warranty and wish to remain free from bad press until they are forced to reveal the truth.

Real Translation: If you plan to use linux and want warranty support, buy from a vendor that supports your freedom to do so.

It would be ironic if they discontinued support for you if you installed Windows on one of these machines ;-). I do, however, doubt that is the case.

Did you check out the machines at:

http://www.system76.com/

I want a pure Ubuntu laptop, and will purchase one in the next three months. I am thinking about purchasing from these guys.

This page details some experiences of returning XP to dell.

Personally, I've built my desktops much cheaper than I could buy them with Windows, and I bought my last laptop from System76.com, which sells laptops with Ubuntu (my distro of choice) pre-installed. It might have been cheaper to buy a Dell and get a refund, but this way I know the hardware is well supported under Linux.

If you are using hardware that should be supported and having problems, that's a bug. You should report it, and it will get fixed.

As for

But if Linux distributors want to get their product used, they need to make sure it works out-of-the-box on Dells.

It *should* work out of the box on Dells, except for "Dell Wireless" - which is illegal to provide out of the box support for because it is based on a Broadcom chipset. If you can manage to click "Intel Wireless" when you buy your Dell, there's no reason it shouldn't work.

More relevantly though... operating systems should really come pre-installed. Dell desktops *are* off-brand for Linux, because Dell doesn't support Linux on them. If you buy from someone like http://www.system76.com/ everything will Just Work, or at least Just Work better than Windows does.

This looks good: http://www.efficientpc.co.uk/systems/

There are also a few places that have a limited rage (sometimes one) of Linux PCs: http://www.clown-fish.com/shop/index.php?cPath=38 (they have plenty of Linux compatible barebone systems though http://www.clown-fish.com/shop/index.php?cPath=3) and http://www.thelinuxshop.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cP ath=30.

Of course in the US there is http://system76.com/

Dell's N series is an interesting strategic decision on their part. It's carefully hidden on their website so no "normal" customer could ever find it, but it's available from an easily linked to URL so that it can be used to prove that "Dell really does sell Microsoft-free PCs" in Slashdot and Digg discussions.

I'd stay away from it myself - every n-Series system that Dell sells is one less system that a smaller vendor who provides better support for Linux doesn't get. Until Dell actually supports Linux, at all, on a machine that it's possible to find by clicking around from the Dell homepage, I'm going to have to recommend supporting smaller vendors that actually support Linux.

Smaller vendors like: http://store.madtux.org/index.php?cPath=57 (Really cheap Linux PCs), http://www.system76.com/ (Nice Ubuntu systems), http://www.powernotebooks.com/ (Nice OS-free laptops).

Ubuntu Certified Linux pre-installed for you. http://system76.com/

Your google-fu needs work

Just because you haven't found it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Integrated everything. Nice looking box. I don't own one yet, but I'm strongly considering one.

http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/2_52?osCsid=f6 81b35d622d80bf27de75e9b33cff25

Maybe I missed something but I don't see why it's so important for some people here that Dell in particular sells their system. If Dell doesn't sell the system you want, why not just go to a seller that does? It seems to me that you would get all the benefits that have been discussed in the comments above: a system that's pre-installed with Linux and hardware that's been checked and double checked for Linux compatibility. Who knows, if you vote with your wallet maybe there will be a day where the pre-installed Linux market is large enough to support a pro Linux decision on Dell's side.

As it stands I can't imagine Dell selling Linux machines for any other reason than as a publicity stunt. Even that is far fetched. The support costs would be enormous.

I just configured those two systems per your specs. The system76 came out at $1474.00 US and the Dell came out at $1773.00 US. I'm assuming that the biggest difference was the graphics card, so I fooled around with http://system76.com/product_info.php/cPath/1/produ cts_id/165 instead of the pangolin. Dell wins at $1773.00, but the serval wasn't trailing too far in price at $1774.00

Bear in mind that the Dell wasn't actually coming with the Complete Care you said you received. If I add that, the Dell comes up to $1872.00.

Now, the Dell at that price *is* coming with a bigger hard drive and a better battery, so it's definitely not comparing apples to apples here, but I'm honestly not seeing the prices you're saying you received. Was the laptop on sale when you bought it, maybe?

I did a Pangolin, Core 2 T5600, 2 gigs ram, Intel GMA 950, 100 gig drive, dvd burner, 6 cell battery came to $1395 US, plus $60 to $70 shipping, plus possible duties and border fees. Somewhere around $1900 CDN after exchange and taxes.

A couple of weeks ago I purchased a Dell 6400, Core 2 T5600, 2 gigs ram, GeForce Go 7300 GS, 160 gig drive, dvd burner, 9 cell battery, Complete Care for $1468.32 CDN delivered, including shipping and after all taxes.

I haven't compared the US E1505, which is the same model as the 6400.

Did you actually compare similar systems with the same specs? Dell versus http://www.system76.com/ The biggest difference I've found in favor of Dell or Lenovo was around $90 when comparing actually similar systems - the normal difference is more like $40.

Even little things like an inch of screen size or which processor model number *exactly* can mean a $200+ difference.

Most of the time when people make the "few hundred bucks" claim, they're comparing a 15.4" widescreen Dell with a CD-RW drive and a low end Turion processor with a 13.3" System76 mini-notebook with top of the line Core 2 Duo and a dual-layer DVD burner.

If you can give an example where I'm wrong about the $90 maximum difference, please post it. I'm pretty sure I'll find some giant difference between the systems when I look at it. Or I'll find out that you're dumb and are buying high-end gaming desktops pre-built...

As for integrated graphics versus dedicated, if you're going to be running Linux on the thing Intel integrated graphics are *strictly superior* to any other option. They're a little slow for UT2004 and Quake 4, but they have free software drivers and work better for stuff like Compiz / Beryl or even just 2D acceleration for web browsing. Oh, and you get a bunch more battery life.

Emperor Linux is expensive, which is why I didn't mention them.

Other vendors, such as http://www.system76.com/, don't have such ridiculous prices.

Most of the companies that specialize in "Linux laptops" that I've ever seen, charge a significant premium.

Most of the people who say this haven't actually looked at the price situation recently.

Configure a system from http://www.system76.com/ and an identical one from Dell. Check what the price difference is. My guess is that the couple bucks difference is worth not having to wipe Windows off the system, being *sure* that Linux supports the hardware, and not wondering if you got special discount "Dell hardware" where Dell demanded that reliability or performance be compromised for cost on the Dell system.

Right now Linux notebooks are roughly twice the cost of an identical Windows box.

Wait, what? That's simply not the case.

I specced out identical laptops from System76 (a Linux system retailer), Dell, Lenovo, and HP a couple weeks ago when someone made this claim in another thread, and the prices are about the same.

• Make sure you're really getting the same hardware. A "Dell" wireless card isn't the same as a Intel wireless card.
• Compare the configuration you would actually buy. For example, Dell starts a little cheaper than System76 but stuff like RAM upgrades may be more expensive.
• Don't compare apples to oranges. For example, Laptops with 15.4" widescreen displays are cheaper than other sizes - don't expect a 4:3 screen or a smaller screen to be cheaper.

It's true that for very cheap desktop systems with low-end flatscreen monitors and shitty inkjet printers running Vista Home Basic, Dell currently has better prices than anyone. Don't let that distract you from comparing the prices of stuff that you would actually want to buy.

You bought that iMac with an operating system preinstalled, an OS made for that hardware specifically. If you want the same experience with a Linux distribution, and don't want to "jump through hoops", buy a machine with Linux preinstalled, from a company like System 76 for instance. I hear people are very happy with their products and services.

HTH

system76 is your friend.

why are people not buying from these guys and making them the next Dell?

Dell couldn't manage to support GNU/Linux, but lets not forget that Dell doesn't really support Windows either. Sure it's impossible to explain to your average user that the Internet and their web browser are different things. This doesn't change if the browser is IE or Firefox or Konqueror. However, as a "geek" I regularly need to provide tech support to friends and family. I have a much easier time doing this once I have switched them over to Ubuntu from Windows. It's simply more user friendly and secure. If you are looking for a new PC, I would highly recommend system76, not any big OEM that functions as a division of Microsoft.

Look at it from the typical corporate PHB mutual admiration/derision society perspective.

Firmware Engineering: Oh no! I've got HOW MANY new drivers to port? I need more money, more head count!

Q/A: Oh no! What's my schedule to test these new drivers? I need more money, more head count!

Product Management: Ugh! I have to SKU up these new products? Graphics design is going to have to give me new blah/blah/blah. What about all of our OEM software partners? They aren't linux compatible. We need new product managers that are Linux geniuses.

Software Dev: Wait none of our apps are Linux compatible. Need more head count. Need to hire linux experts to do this.

Marketing: We need to buy lots of market research! We need to hire linux market experts! We're doing so much already!

Manufacturing: You want what? You've got the wrong guy in your office. The server assembly manager is the guy you need to speak with. He does expensive-but-kind-of-free-Red-Hat, not me. Wait, you want Optiplex's and Dimensions to have Linux? It can't be done. I'm not set up for it. I need more people and more money to expand operations to accommodate your new-fangled production ideas.

Support: Our Indian support center doesn't have the scripts needed to support, wait you said MANY versions of Linux? No. No way. Too complicated.

Legal: We need to enter into a contract with these Linux people. Wait, many linux people? I thought there was only one Linux. Need more head count to manage these new contracts. We need to research if this conflicts with any agreements we already have. Need to hire legal consultants that are experts in Linux. Hmmm plus all this "free" software written for hippies hasn't been vetted by the courts.

Purchasing: Where do we buy this Linux from?

Sales: All right! Linux on Dell! Let's do it! Who's with me?!?

What you are asking for (lower priced, OS-free hardware they will support) they will not give you. Besides, you will force distro's into a winner/loser software monoculture of it's own making that is best avoided at all costs. This is where the little guy thrives. Hmm, let's see http://www.sub300.com/port.htm or maybe www.linspire.com, or http://system76.com/?

The reason this matters is that there are no Linux laptops available from any vendor bigger than a garage shop.

Yes, there's Linux Certified, in the same building with Mr. Chau's Chinese Fast Food in San Jose. And there's System76, whose address is a Pak Mail in Denver.

If you're selling hardware that may have to be maintained or replaced, you need to be bigger than that to play.

Of course, once upon a time there was VA Linux, but we know what happened to them.

Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows.

The laptop loaded with Windows XP costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system costs $747. Note that you must change the following two hardware options on the web page showing laptop without an OS so that they match the hardware options found by default for the Windows laptop: Hard drive=60GB 5400RPM and Modular Bay Optical="8X DVD".

So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! It looks like Dell is still subsidizing Microsoft for every Windows-free laptop they sell. I'm getting my laptop from System76 -- they sell excellent quality Linux laptops, desktops, and servers. They also have a great support team that cares about Linux and open source.

If you want to buy a computer with Linux preloaded, you can go to Groovix, System 76, or Koobox. If you don't want to buy a new computer, I recommend Linux Mint or Freespire. Both of them are more user friendly to Windows converters and come things like flash and mp3 playback already installed.

As for Dell, they've had shitastic Windows support for years, so they'd be much better off just sending people to Canonical's or Red Hat's or whoever's tech support.

http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/2_9 So what's the problem?

As I said above, I think it's only because of this partnering with Microsoft. Canonical already offers the option of paid support and now, certification. How long can a rationale of partnering with Novell or RH on that basis really hold anymore? Other vendors like this one are actually proving that going with the most popular distribution makes economic sense. Who's choosing SUSE for their Perhaps the real motivation for going with SUSE is that they don't actually want Linux on Dell to work, at least too well.

http://www.system76.com/ has decent Ubuntu desktops / laptops / servers.

Ok: If Dell is going to spend a shitload of time and money testing all these different configurations then why the hell aren't they going to ship the software preinstalled?

Think about it.

You say:
Certification is hard blah blah blah.

Then I say:
If that is so possible and Dell is willing to spend all this mythical time and money on certification, but they aren't willing to make a install image that they pre-load onto a disk?

It doesn't make sense. There is something else going on.
I suspect that Microsoft may have something to do with it, but more likely is that their certification proccess is shit and it's a hell of a lot cheaper to put a 'certified' icon on their website then actually supporting Linux on hardware configurations.

They are going to install Suse and confirm that all the hardware has basic functionality. That is what their certification program is going to be.

Look at what http://system76.com/ can do.

It's a small business that makes sure that the hardware works with Ubuntu. If a driver is not aviable for a paticular peice of hardware they make sure that one is made. A open source driver. If not then they don't buy the hardware to sell to you.

Linux is pre-installed. Linux is supported and you get support for 1 or 3 year contracts.

If they can do it then why can't Dell?

Dell will only provide free software pre-installed when they start to loose marketshare to companies that provide installation and support of GNU/Linux on desktops and laptops. Why not buy your next computer from system76?

Anyone who wants to use Linux is most likely not going to purchase a Dell (odds are they build their own).

If they did, they would most likely want to install the OS themselves.

Any poor soul that purchases a Dell with Linux on it, will most likely do it thinking they are getting a some kind of deal.

They will get the PC and be very confused which in the end will cause a huge technical support headache for Dell and result in nothing but a pissed off customer because technical support doesn't know what Linux is.

In the end the customer has a computer they can barely use cause they can't figure out Linux.

Be honest. How many of you Linux users would actually purchase a Dell?

How many of you would purchase a Dell with a pre-installed Distro of Linux?

• Wireless drivers
• Hibernation / Sleep funtionality
• CPU throttling control
• ...I'm sure I've missed one?

The issue of proprietary nvidia / ati graphics drivers is one they should initially work around. As all GNU/Linux users do currently. But this should be the *only* exception as far as hardware compatibility is concerned.

This bunch sell sweet laptops with pre-installed Ubuntu. If they can do it, surely Dell can do it?

Just yesterday I was looking at getting a new laptop, and was dismayed because everything came with Vista. . . I've heard more good things about Ubuntu than any other Linux version, I would rather buy a laptop with Ubuntu than Vista.

You should check out System76.

You can already do this from places like System 76
Sure, it's not a huge company like Dell, but they have support and warranties and after having dealt with the Dell's belonging to my family members, I can't imagine the support being any less useful than Dell.