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Dell Refuses to Sell Ubuntu to Business
An anonymous reader writes "I had a surreal experience with Dell today.
My boss asked me to order a new computer for our small, non-profit business. Wanting to support Dell in their decision to sell computers with Ubuntu installed, I decided to order one.
First, I talked to a small business representative, who informed me that I could not order one of the Ubuntu-based computers through the small business department. I had to go through the "home and home office" department.
I called the Home office department. I asked the representative if I could buy one of the ubuntu computers for my company. She said (and I quote), "these Dell computers are designed for personal use only, as long as you use it for personal use, you can purchase one."
So I lied and said I would....
Next, I tried to buy it on our business credit card. They would have none of that. She told me that I had to buy it through a personal card. Now, as a non-profit, our business does not pay sales tax (10% in Tennessee). Had I bought it with my own card, I would have had to pay tax (~$90), which my company would not have reimbursed me for. So.....no Dell today."
...take your business, literally, elsewhere?
Why not purchase as an employee gift. I would not buy from Dell myself but if I did that is what I would do.
"Its Mary's 30th year with the organization, we want to do something special for her."
The GPL, for those that truely understand.
Just load it on yourself
So.....no Dell today.
I do believe, that's what he did.
The seemingly more stupid and less customer orientated they are. Those damned corporations.
Dell has been selling systems through the business end with FreeDos for a while now. Purchase one of those and install Ubuntu yourself. It really isn't that hard and you can actually customize the install to what components you actually need. Or you could purchase one and install any free distro you want.
I can list the millions of reasons why they only want to sell it as "personal use". Remember, Dell (and any other PC company) is still a business designed to make money and if they cannot please everyone all of the time, oh well.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
They probably have a system in place that allows only businesses to buy business PCs, irrespective of whether its running Linux or not. And they probably see Ubuntu as only being appropriate for personal work, hence ..
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. Doesn't make this any less annoying though !
Businesses AREN'T SUPPOSED to have opinions on the likes of SOFTWARE! Only GEEKS do that...
~~~hsl~~~
When a company DONT sell something then this must have very good reasons. I think it has something todo with Licences and stuff. Or Dell is planning to produce a special Company based notbook ubuntu. And they simply dont sell Private ones firstly.
I can see why they might want to sell different products in their different "channels", presumably they have different support staff for each one and not all are trained for all products.
I can't see why they won't accept a business card for an item purchased in the "home / home office" section though.
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
Dell segments its business based on how customers are perceived to use their systems. This is why a consumer can't purchase a Latitude notebook, yet Small Business customers can. Support is also divided along these lines for the most part. You can purchase Gold Support "highly recommended" on business machines but not so on the consumer machines. Ubuntu Linux, as far as I can tell, is being offered as a consumer grade operating system at this time.
I would wager if you talked to the Small Business sales rep again you could still purchase an nSeries system with FreeDOS on it or you can purchase a Precision Workstation with Red Hat Linux. Simply go to www.dell.com/nseries.
The thing this (and the fact that the price of the Ubuntu Dell machine is at par with a Windows box) points to is that Dell jumped onto the Ubuntu bandwagon more for leverage and less for business.
Customer: "I would like a Dell and Ubuntu without Ubuntu on it."
Dell: "You can't have it."
Customer: "Why not?"
Dell: "Well it wouldn't be a Dell with Ubuntu now wou'it?..."
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
It isn't really a huge price difference between XP and Linux after buying it from Dell anyway. I'm guessing the businesses have the option to purchase larger support options, and they don't want to have to deal with that at the moment. Plus, there's probably a pact between them and Microsoft, when it comes to mass orders from businesses.
Ya never know. That is strange though.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
As it would appear that they sell LINUX computers so that they can get positive mindshare from the Slashdot types, but they don't want to make it TOO available to people like businesses so that they don't get Micro$soft too angry when they go to re-negotiate their OEM agreement.
What this basically means is that LINUX is no further ahead at the end of the day.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Buy from Dell to get the support contract your company wants, then put VirtualBox or VMWare on the box and run Ubuntu there. It'll be easier to transfer the operating system to your new box next year, easier to clone the install for other employees, etc.
Agile Artisans
"as long as you use it for personal use, you can purchase one"
You should buy one after they've told you that, then tell gplviolations.org about the additional restrictions on top of the GPL license for most of the software. They'd have a field day.
[she] told me that I had to buy it through a personal card
That is ridiculous. It really makes no sense, does it? Am I missing something here? Why would Dell not take this order on a business card? I just don't get it.
Dell is screwed.
Umm, and you didn't hang up and call them back and get another salesperson who doesn't give a crap?
Thats the tactic I use. You always run into stubborn people in the service industry, but 9 times out of 10, the next person you reach won't care either way and will process your transaction just fine.
Try a different company, but let them know that you are doing it. If enough people do this I am sure that they will change their mind
http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/
Dell wants to sell computers with Linux on them, (or, even better, SAY that they do) they just don't want to have to support computers with Linux on them.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
I was interested in supporting Dell and it's Ubuntu decision. I'm not traditionally an Ubunutu user. I've SuSE/openSuse on my 3 year old Dell laptop since I got it years (didn't have any hardware compatibility issues and auto-detected everything important) and otherwise use CentOS and Debian but thought it would be worth buying one just to ease hardware selection since laptop hardware changes so much.
I looked at the specs for the Ubuntu laptop. 6 pounds! Holy crap, no way in hell I'm lugging that around. My current Dell laptop is under 3lbs. I brought up the page for Dells smallest laptop and wanted to compare the hardware to their Ubuntu one. I buy under government/higher-ed. Guess what...no mention of Ubuntu as an OS option in that category. Looks like it's only available in the Home section.
Ho hum, back to the old fashioned way. Checked for wifi support before I bought the littlest one, paid the MS tax, and kept my fingers crossed.
Dell's Ubuntu option is a nice idea, but restricting it to a single Laptop isn't all that engaging.
I had the same experience with HP a couple of years back when it decided to offer PCs with Mandrake. They were not available through the business channel and that was it.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Yet another big company that looks like it's doing a good thing, that only turns out it's performing some lame marketing stunt. My guess is that these Ubuntu machines will be short lived in their product line-up. This on top of the story (last week?) about Dell also not providing a warranty on these machines? At least their servers are all right. I'd never be caught with one of their PCs.
System 76 will happily sell to you where Dell won't
Yes, Dell's support for corporate, government, and educational customers is a completely different division than for home users. I can't speak for the home support, but having worked for the division that handle the large accounts like that, they made sure to take pretty good care of the customer. Of course that was several years ago and although I know the divisions are still seperate I can't promise the level of service is any better or worse than when I was there. Of course since employee or student purchase programs still fell under the corporate division, some days it felt like you were doing home user support all day (especially on night shift).
Will HP buy a Dell laptop, install Ubuntu, sell it to me, and support the hardware and OS? Sometimes Dell has the best choice in hardware (especially for an environment where everything else is Dell).
... then don't give it to them. It's as plain and simple as that, and goes for any company/person. Big Box companies that refuse to take your money don't deserve your money.
> American Consumers are DUMB!
Yes. Along with pretty much any nationality you can think of. We're all dumb.
If Dell won't sell one particular configuration through one particular channel, there'll be a reason for it. More likely than not, it's not profitable for them to do so - it'll cost them more to do you a special than they'll make back in profit.
If that's the case, they don't want your money - they may just as well mail you a check/cheque for the difference and call it quits. They're hardly likely to do that now are they?
I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who complain when a company won't take their cash. If they won't take it, they don't want it and your complaining isn't going to do anything about it.
Anyway, allow me to climb down off my hobby-horse. If you want to make Dell pay, buy a normal Windows-ified PC and claim the money back as per the EULA.
So, don't complain - you have no right to complain. However, what you do have is a choice. Use it.
It's not about that. Dell makes "Business computers" they have whole lines of "business" computers, very specific models; Optiplex, Precision, PowerEdge. They come with a limited number of OS choices...which includes Redhat Enterprise and SUSE Enterprise.
You can't buy Ubuntu on one of those, and you can't buy windows xp either. Clearly Dell views Ubuntu as "not ready for the server" and is unwilling to put it on a server class machine. You can still buy the machine with no OS, and add Ubuntu yourself.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
>go with HP, Lenovo, Gateway, Apple, Penguin Computer
Out of those you've listed, only Penguin Computer actually sells servers with Linux - and it's a small company with a limited range of products (e.g. no Core2 Duo, only Xeon machines, etc.).
I am facing the same issue as the original poster right now, and would be interested in real suggestions for a high-volume company that can sell you linux workstations relatively cheap (as Dell and such do).
The poster wasn't whining. He was trying to support Dell for offering a computer with Linux installed. Dell wouldn't sell him one, so he went elsewhere. His post just documents his experience.
Why not just buy a blank box from a local shop?
h p?pid=19598]. They have boxes in all sorts of ranges [e.g. for $884 you can get a box with a dual core E6400, decent GPU, 1GB of memory, etc [http://www.shoprbc.com/ca/shop/product_details.ph p?pid=21011]]. I'm sure many "local shops" in big enough cities have similar deals.
If you just need a workstation, my local shop that I use has deals less than $500 [http://www.shoprbc.com/ca/shop/product_details.p
A blank CD costs $0.30, download ubuntu yourself, burn it, install it. That will take all of a couple hours at most [most of which you can be doing other things during].
You don't have to order from Dell to get a pre-built computer of any quality.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
How about getting the laptop with Windows XP anyway? Just make sure you get enough RAM - 1GB or even 2GB.
Then wipe it and install Ubuntu and keep the license key handy. This way if you ever need windows you can run Windows XP on vmware on the laptop if you need it.
It's convenient to have a spare Windows XP machine around esp for most businesses.
At work I run windows XP on vmware server, on suse. And I set up a file share directory for the XP "machine" to write more "permanent" stuff to.
So if something really strange happens to the windows machine I just click "revert to snapshot", and I end up with a working XP. That said so far in my usage, XP hasn't really been a problem.
In fact, IE on XP on vmware sometimes takes up less memory than firefox on suse.
I've had a blue screen of death after just a few minutes of using vista, bad drivers or whatever who cares - that's been my only BSOD this _YEAR_ so far. So I strongly recommend against spending money to _downgrade_ to Vista, endure all the bugs AND help Microsoft extend its monopoly.
No, consumers in general are dumb. If they weren't, they would be customers.
Thus I feel vaguely insulted every time someone calls me a consumer.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They said it's for personal use only and you want to buy it on company coin and they said noes \0_0/ oh my! Just to tell you, if you buy something with a company credit card it better be for company usage.
You're complaining because they're following the rules they set forth. And obviously Dell doesn't want to have to support the machine in a business sense since it's targeted towards enthusiasts.
A friend of mine tried to buy a Dell notebook in Germany. First she didn't want to buy a machine with Vista, but that was not possible online. The only choises were Vista or pay more for Vista. At the end she decided to go with Vista and replace it with XP later. After ordering they called her and told her that the machine she selected the other day is no longer available (but still available in the shop). And they really asked her to choose another more expensive notebook. She denied and got it managed to get the Vista thing replaced as well. The cause for not offering this option online was, that Dell prefers to sell Vista. Strange service.
A day later they debited the amount directly (well this is a normal way to pay things in Germany, instead of using credit cards) for both notebooks. She got really angry and canceled the whole thing. Which means both orders and went down to the Mac shop to buy a MacBook which costs here 100 EUR more, but she got the device with her specs right from the shelf.
A yes the cause for ordering a Dell was, so she could have Ubuntu pre-installed, but this option is not available in Germany. So I guess. Selling Ubuntu looks like a good advertising strategy to me, but they are not really interested in selling it.
I agree with your general point, but only in cases where the consumer then goes on to buy something at Dell that he did not originally want. Also, I fail to see why whining in either case, especially on slashdot, would be a bad thing.
Before whining on slashdot:
someone at Dell and the OP were aware that he intended to buy a Dell but did not because Dell refused to sell him the computer he wanted.
After whining on slashdot:
the OP, more than one person at Dell and half the friggin' computer-buying world are aware that Dell did not sell him what he wanted. I guess that if Dell cares at all, this is going to make them address the issue faster than some random bloke telling them he's gonna go and buy an HP instead.
Besides, I doubt telling a sales rep that you are going to the competition will have any effect whatsoever. What's he gonna do, go to the manager and tell him that he lost another 100 potential clients to HP? Would the manager say anything other than 'well, you're not very good at your job then, are you? Go clean your desk.'?
Part of buying a dell is for support though, and installing Linux when they sold you a Windows box will surely void your warranty.
Why is it somehow bad to call out a company for a stupid business decision?
I mean, I don't have to buy for them, but I sure as hell don't have to hold back my "they're stupid monkey fucking gutter slut" comments, either.
Plus, it's nice to know for the rest of us. It's nice to know what businesses to avoid if the situation ever comes up.
It's pretty pathetic that you complain about the right to free speech. American Consumers are dumb? I'd say the idiot who bitches about free speech is dumb. But hey, far be it from me to stop you. Even retards are allowed to get their say in. Freedom of speech and all.
Why are there so few laptop companies making laptops only for other operating systems? There's certainly a demand for this, and there's hardly any competition in that sector. There have to be enough potential customers to keep the company afloat, and the free advertising they'd get on sites like Slashdot would be well worth the money.
Buy a PC from NewEgg.com or TigerDirect.com without an OS on it and install Ubuntu yourself...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
He could have gotten a Red Hat box. Red Hat is supported. The problem is there is a difference between home support and corporate support. Apparently corporate support doesn't know Ubuntu.
That would be why they offer redhat support and SuSE support as well.
The full list of supported linux can be found here. Just because one guy wants to buy one machine that doesn't come with Ubuntu, everyone is up in arms. Dell never claimed that they were going to offer it on every machine. They're damn careful what they offer for business machines in general, and you can always get a business class machine with no OS.
Buncha fricking sheep. Dell's making a good effort on linux.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
So, you mean he should move to a new building? A new city? State? If you mean he should buy from somebody besides Dell, you are misusing the word "literally."
Now, many of you will refer to somebody who makes a comment like this as a "grammar Nazi." However, this really isn't a grammar issue. You might call it a usage issue or a meaning issue or... I don't know. Using a word to mean something that it doesn't mean really has nothing to do with grammar.
OTOH, the original story did mention the high sales tax in his area, so maybe the parent really did mean he should move somewhere else. Hey, how about the Cayman Islands?
I'm just sayin'.
http://system76.com/ Great laptops, reasonable prices, Ubuntu ships on the beasts. What more could you ask for?
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
See, that's how to synopsise.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
This habit of jerking customers around is why they're going to follow Gateway down the drain. Good for HP and Apple, sucks for Dell's customers and shareholders.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I would of just said, send me one with WinXP Pro...then promptly burn it down and install a nice running Dapper/Edgy or Fiesty install. Well, that would of been to do a "told ya so." Time to hit up newegg/tiger other desired flavor and build your box.
Although, I'm guessing, the summary is a touch on the inflammatory side - more likely Dell "can't" sell Ubuntu through it's small business division. We already know that they have different sales, marketing, and prices, I'm not surprised that a decision by one sales channel doesn't/hasn't migrated to others.
More likely it would be correct to say "Dell can't yet sell ubuntu through business channels."
However, I'm rather surprised you let it drop there. When faced with a flunky unable to make a policy decision, crawl up the authority chain until you reach someone who can make the decision. Recite this tale to supervisors, then managers, then division heads, IMO you will find someone who thinks it's as stupid as you do, and arrange to make the 'impossible' possible - and probably fix the issue for others in the meantime (or at least get a fix started).
Then you really find out if it's "Dell can't" or "Dell won't".
-Styopa
You'd think one time in the conversation Dell would have mentioned that? From what it seems the poster wasn't informed of this because I'm sure he would have accepted that.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
Look, I'm no DELL fanboy but it's obvious that in an organization as large as Dell it's going to take time for the whole company to be on the same track. There could be any of a number of LEGITIMATE reasons for what you encountered. I'm just going to guess, but one reason COULD BE that they are not yet ready to support biz fully and that they are starting off with personal use first and will soon add biz support as soon as the contracts are signed, people are trained, testing and evaluation, etc.
Just because Dell says we will support LINUX today does not mean tomorrow morning everything will be good to go. BTW...the prior sentence uses exaggerations to make a point. If you don't get it you don't get it.
Have you considered Lenovo ? It still has IBM stamped all over it and when you call ( If you ever have to ) for a warranty issue, you get to speak with "Tom in Atlanta" vs being on hold for 45 minutes with Dell and transfered to "Hamish in India" ( Nothing against Indian people, but I actually called the Dell warranty number and spoke with someone who could not understand me even after I spelled my company name. ) I've been tremendously happy with Lenovo and they support Linux all the way. Their prices are very competitive. On the high end, this X60 tablet I have is the best laptop I've ever had, it rocks ! If your looking for a straight business PC, I think something in the 600-800 range can be done. Over the years, I've bought hundreds of Dell PC's and hardly ever had a warranty issue, but if I had it to do over again, I would have gone with IBM/Lenovo, especially on laptops. Good luck !
Stop talking crap. I work for Dell USA and I can assure you the reason why we don't sell ubuntu to small business is because the US based support team are not yet trained to support ubuntu. Small business support is based in the USA. While home customers are sent offshore. I don't think our business customers want to be redirected to our offshore center for ubuntu support.
Small business ubuntu support will come in the coming months. So stop your bitching.
Out of those you've listed, only Penguin Computer actually sells servers with Linux
Huh? Are you looking at a different HP website than everyone else? We don't even have any HP servers here and even I know you can't get a Proliant running Linux. Here's the first one I came to, and that was just 30 seconds work clicking on the first options I saw. SLES or RHEL, your choice.
Is a whole different animal than the home-user's version of support we're used to: wait on hold for 3 hours and have some level 1 tell you to flatten and reinstall.
Seems sensible to test the waters w/ personal use first.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Stupid flounders!
Its 'alternAtive' not 'alternItive'. ThreatEn, not threatOn. You want to rant about DUMB, get it right.
Cretin.
Wierd... I work for a non-profit and we have a "business" office. I guess I have to go tell them all they're fired because of you. Thanks, jerk!
Seriously though, "business" means more than just "an entity that makes money (or at least tries)."
I know, the subject is simply not true. But this the perception out there nonetheless...
My recent surreal experience went like that (talking to sysadmins in a giant financial company, with thousands of Unix-servers):
How do you like that?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
No it's not. It's orientated to those of us who don't remove letters from words because we can't be arsed to say it.
It's aluminIum, orientATed, coloUr etc.
B.
Beer Coat: The invisible but warm coat worn when walking home after a booze cruise at 3 in the morning.
You're not supposed to post here; you actually know what you're talking about. This is news for nerds, not news for professionals.
MS Gates and MR Dell FUS and make a deal.
...,
This keeps Linux out of the office, schools
by making sure businesses buying Dell cannot get
GNU/Linux/OSS. If I were to provide a winning proposal
for installing (as a prime contractor) and supporting
for a couple years, and I was costing cheap Dell
computers preloaded with OSS to meet the contract
requirements, then this could be a very costly mistake
to make. If I made this whoops, it would be my costly
mistake, not Dell/MS.
Always make sure who and what you are dealing with.
I wounder if MS & Dell know why/how computers migrated
from the home environment into the office environment,
and eventually on everyones' desk. Maybe they should ask
others maybe older and far wiser then themselves, like
Jobs at Apple, RHS at GNU/FSF....
SUMMARY: I think, only trusting and misinformed folks
will potentially buy Dell and MS products.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
This makes less sense to me as 4 years ago with a prior company I was working for all the business desktops we ordered from Dell came preinstalled and was shipped with red hat enterprise linux. Why do business' do assinine things like this? It's one thing if this was the very first time they offered linux through Dell but that's not the case and if they were able to support redhat, I don't see no reason why they can't support ubuntu. They obviously have the personel somewhere.
This is a spot on Stephen Colbert impression, so mod it right! You wouldn't want to give comfort to the enemies of the United States, would you? I didn't think so.
My wife was gaped at when she asked "Is this the queue for the till?" in a supermarket. It's "is this the line for the checkout?" here.
Most Americans are not cosmopolitan...
That sounds like a match made in hell. You get to enjoy all the disadvantages of Linux *and* all the disadvantages of Windows at the same time. Your Windows services and kernel are still exposed to malware, you have all the DRM fun of the Windows world, and you have more overhead when running the UNIX applications you bought the computer for.
Bah. You're just trying to cheat at 'Scrabble'!
just order online and save a bundle?
l inux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
I downloaded the image file and (using the Ubuntu link) downloaded the Image Write file so quickly its almost silly to ask a vendor to supply the Ubuntu version. Who needs 'em? (We don't need so stinkin' vendor installations :-) Your non-profit co is to be commended for taking the open source approach and Ubuntu (Fiesty Fawn!) rocks! Tried to run a youtube video and he came back and told me to install such and so (and it was al there - just a point and click operation) and presto! runs it no sweat. Linux Ubuntu is so awesome and so sweeeeeeeet I really can't imagine why anyone would run windows anymore.
http://m-w.com/dictionary/business
Microsoft's per-processor licensing survives, but in the form of per-model licensing. I'm sure that Michael Dell had to personally kiss Steve Ballmer's pinky ring in order to provide Ubuntu without having Microsoft double their Windows licensing fees. Part of the agreement being to keep it out of their business computers. Total speculation on my part, but there must have been some seriously tough negotiating at the highest levels of management in both MS and Dell to make this happen.
I am pretty impressed with Dell for doing this - it is worth it to live with a home PC even though the support sucks and it is harder to purchase.
Actually, the element was originally named aluminum by Humphrey Davey (technically he began with alumium, but he settled on aluminum). The British actually added extra letters to Davey's name, taking the suggestion of aluminium which appeared anonymously in an 1812 edition of the Quarterly Review.
It's all in your friendly neighborhood O.E.D.
It seems I'm going to have to start boxshifting pc's and laptops with Linux preinstalled. Have you any idea how little fun that is?
There must be someone out there doing it already.
Deleted
You ever spoken to Dell's Tech Support on the desktop teams? They don't want to support anything.
I agree with point #1 but disagree with point #2.
At some point we need to see if vendors can make extra money by providing pre-installed Linux, and this is a good test. There was a lot more hype for this than for their previous Linux offerings, so I would expect to see decent sales.
I am getting one for my next laptop, I hope other Linux enthusiasts will put their money where there mouth is.
If you want to make Dell pay, buy a normal Windows-ified PC and claim the money back as per the EULA.
Tell me, how are you getting on with that? I've heard of isolated cases, but never a company openly stating that their policy is to honour such refund requests.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
These guys: http://welcome.allaroundgeeks.com/ for instance.
I'm sure there must be other small businesses as well who would love to sell you an Ubuntu box. You just have to look a little harder.
I bought the Ubuntu based Dell laptop online with the boss's business credit card. I configured it how I wanted it and it was all good. I wanted to send a message that people do want computers with linux preinstalled. It was a whole lot easier to just turn it on and have everything setup and working than having to try to get all the hardware working.
Due to an extremely silly incident involving a support contract a server running an Oracle instance, I've avoided DeLL for years--which isn't easy since my Uni is ALL ABOUT Teh DeLL.
But I thought this was interesting enough to give another try.
Uni acct. rep wouldn't sell
Got bounced all over the place
Kept trying to sell me the same notebook with Vista (no matter what I explained)
Finally decided to let us buy--but not as Uni, only as a person
Which meant no P.O. and further hassles
Just wasn't worth it. . .
I am sure the OP knows he can buy a system and put Ubuntu on it himself. He knows that he can go to X, get laptop Y, and put Z on it. That is not the point he is trying to make. The point is that he is trying to support Dell's decision to use Ubuntu, yet Dell is not being very open to the process.
Take the $90 and write it off at the end of the year. Your accountant will know how to handle it.
Not getting your sales tax break at the time of purchase still allows you to get that money back at the end of the year, the government just gets to hold onto it for a while which is admittedly annoying.
No, he wouldn't. Because a small not-for-profit org does NOT have $LOTS to spend on hardware that's overpriced just because it reads "business class" on the site it has to be bought.
Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
A lot of the comments here have told the submitter to purchase a Dell with FreeDOS and then load Ubuntu. I think that's completely out of the scope of the submitters goal.
The submission does not say that the boss asked for a new computer with Ubuntu on it, s/he just asked for just a computer. The submitters "business" goal was to purchase a computer, and apparently which OS wasn't important. This allowed the submitter room to append a personal agenda to the task assigned. The submitter wanted to support Dell's decision to sell systems with Ubuntu. While FreeDOS is not Windows, purchasing a system with it preloaded does not accomplish the "personal" goal of rewarding Dell for supporting/distributing Linux.
The point is that Dell will only allow people through the home division to purchase systems with Ubuntu. I work at a college and my institutional purchases are a completely separate division of Dell from my Student/Faculty/Staff purchases. Sometimes they don't even have access to the same inventory. See Sunday's story about How to buy a Dell.
I was inches away from buying an equally "tricked out" E1505n from Dell but after doing some research and finding out Dell's TRUE policy towards Linux.... I went with the Asus G1. Everything works with hardly any effort (The Gentoo wiki has all the information you'll need, it's pretty much copy & paste even here in Ubuntu-land), and since they already have the disk partitioned in half with nothing on sda3, as far as they can tell it's been unmodified if I ever need to ship it in for service (just "repair" the windows bootloader to get rid of grub and nobody's the wiser).
:D
And the G1's video card kicks the E1505n's ass left and right
That's the difference. They could care less if the consumer side ever resolves their issues.
how does that make sense in this case though? if anything you'd think they'd unload these on biz IT types. it's the "home user" that i would expect to require more technical support for Ubuntu based computers.
what's more, how many IT shops do you think call Dell when Windows gets hosed? i know we don't at my company. i'm only on the phone with them when we need hardware replaced. do businesses with IT departments really rely on phone support for OS issues that much?
No sig for you!!
Since they offered to sell him the same machine with MS-Windows, I believe your argument is a little off-target.
Really, I think this experience simply shows that Dell is not serious about Linux, and is still very much in the pocket of Microsoft.
But we already knew that.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
He wanted to buy a machine that they do sell with Ubuntu, but they won't sell that machine to a business, only for home or home office use.
Where's your proof it was made by the GNAA?
*me ducks*
When other large vendors like IBM & HP support Linux out of the box. Especially for servers, the equipment that Dell puts together is second rate.
I am right now trying to get two desktops from Dell, for a training program next week. I ordered them last week, and paid for overnight shipping. When they didn't arrive as anticipated, I looked up the status, and found that they were to ship -next- wednesday, the last day of the training. Hm-m-m-m.
When I called the nice lady in India, she informed me that "Overnight shipping sijmply means that, when we ship the computer, it arrices the next day." Oh, really? It was beyond her understanding that the reason that people pay for overnight shipping is that they are hoping to receive the good promptly, and that perhaps customers might not understand the value proposition for overnight shipping taking place two weeks in the future.
I used to be a big fan of Dell.
I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
Yellow Dog Linux http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/ Is not adverse to selling Linux to businesses. They use IBM computers. They also can help you with your PS3
p hp
YDL started out providing Linux for Macs, but went IBM when Apple went Intel.
How about a six node PS3 cluster? http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/store/purchase.
I've used YDL on several computers and have been happy with their distros.
photosMy Photostream
The originator of this story needs to contact Groklaw with this story. Groklaw typically gets down to the nitty gritty truth about issues like this. Groklaw have been investigating whether or not Micro$oft is attempting to kill Open Source software.
Is there a secret deal between Micro$oft, Dell, and Ubuntu regarding so-called "business computers"? Hmm.... what are the odds...
Yeah! How dare you criticize a company for starting to sell a product before it's own team is prepared for it! They certainly can't be blamed for failing to train their own staff!
Dell is becoming the Walmart of computer vendors. Sure, you can get something cheap, but god help you if you actually want any service, support, or any form of professionalism.
if I had mod points I'd give you some. This has been the greatest saying I read on /. I'm saving it and sing it
fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
I know that Dell has been marketing the Ubuntu systems as intended for "Home and Home Office". And I know that they play LOTS of games with their prices, selling the same system to different market segments for surprisingly different prices.
:-)
For example, compare the specs of the $699 Home Inspiron 1501 to the $549 Small Business 1501! The latter costs $150 less but has the EXACT SAME SPECS except for a smaller battery (a $30 upgrade). So you can basically get a 20% discount by buying the small biz version... Then again, sometimes the promotions for the home systems are better. The deals and discounts are CONSTANTLY changing, so I go to edealinfo.com, which does a good job keeping track of them.
The thing is, in my experience Dell doesn't care if individuals buy Small Business systems or vice versa. Heck, they don't even care if some random person buys a computer through their Employee and Affiliate Program. For example, a few weeks ago I got a really good deal on a new Inspiron 1501 by buying it through the affiliate program... I just gave them my home CC number and mailing address, and sure enough the computer arrived a week later.
I think the difference might be ordering online vs. ordering over the phone! When you order online, there appears to be absolutely zero verification of whether your home/business/affiliate purchase is going to the right place... but over the phone there may be some stupid bureaucracy in your way. To the OP, I suggest trying to do your order again online!
My bicyles
If Dell was allowed to sell Ubuntu to businesses, all businesses with Windows VLK's would buy Ubuntu computers by the truckload in order to avoid having to pay for two Windows licenses.
I'm aware I shouldn't attribute to malice, etc etc, but I imagine MS are keeping Dell on a short leash with the licensing: "Sell Ubuntu to businesses and we revoke your OEM status and you have to pay $XXX per machine instead of $XX".
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
The quality of support they provide in the business division assumes a level of competence on the customer end that is not safe to assume with Linux, which could cause them to lose their shirts as well-meaning newbies stumble through transitioning hand-held and paid for by Dell.
Ubuntu is pretty straight-forward and I've been using various flavors of Linux for a decade, but if I had a support line to call the first few days I was trying it out for the first time, I would have burned through the price of a cheap laptop in no time trying to get a few of my odder doo-dads to connect. I mean, honestly, when was the last time their support department had to tell a Windows customer "please apply these five patches to your kernel source v.xyz and recompile?"
Will Dell ever release the sales figures for the Ubuntu models?
I'm guessing not.
*sigh* back to work...
Well, I don't know about Lenovo, buy IBM (which still keeps its PC server business) does preload its servers with Linux:
/ xseriesnos.html
http://www.ibm.com/systems/x/solutions/os/linux/
http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/xseries/cog
really now?!
For our business. So I bet there is a contract in place with RedHat that all business computers must have RedHat on them instead of Ubuntu. Julian
I go out of my way to complicate the simple things, so that I can simplify the complicated things.
... Is Dell trying to avoid supporting these machines in a corporate environment? That's half-assed support, and Dell should be held accountable for it. Either stand behind your product, with the disclaimer that Linux-based may not work for everyone, or don't sell the damn things at all ...
Dell is doing exactly what you recommend, they do not want to offer half-assed support to businesses so they do not sell it to businesses. Keep in mind that Dell has completely different support teams for home and business. The business side will take a much longer time to train up on Linux than the home side, more variations and usage patterns. Also keep in mind that the economics/profitability of Linux is entirely different for home vs business. Home is probably more likely to just go with a canned configuration, business more likely to customize the Linux installation. Ubuntu should have been a clue that this was home centric.
Especially when you consider what "to consume" means. It generally has an eating connotation (e.g., consumers (animals) vs. producers (plants)) or a passive feel to it. Customer, user, client, etc., all have an active feel to them, and as long as people only passively buy or use items/ideas, they will be known as "consumers".
I, too, feel insulted when I am referred to as a consumer; I actually do research products, support the free market (vote with your wallet), and pay the company for the item, so I am a customer. I don't eat your computers, Dell! I don't consume videogames, Nintendo!
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
This is not true.
Open it up and break it, that will void your warranty.
Install Linux on the system and don't expect support for software.
The hardware is a different story.
i had the same experience last week trying to order a few computers for our university physics department. the higher education section of their site doesn't include any open source configurations, and when we asked for pc's with ubuntu they said they couldn't sell them to us. they did sell us systems with freedos installed though.
Dell just started a new offering. They are new to the Linux Desktop game, the first large scale pc manufacturer to do so (of the top 5). Cut them some slack. The cannot be expected to turn up a such an undertaking over night. They are starting with the lowest impact and working up. They need to hone the system and build their skills. They also need to feel out Linux's growth. Plus, the application set and patience level of business consumers is vastly different from the home consumer. Give them time and they will provide all the Linux crap you want. Just give them a break.
I'm glad Dell is selling Ubuntu computers, but yeah, I agree, they have a lot of things to rethink. In the meantime, you should support one of several other companies that sell computers with Linux preinstalled. I recommend, LinuxCertified. Their laptops are definitely aimed at business people. I bought one of the Ultra Portable, LC2100DC models, and it's the best computer I've ever owned: wide screen, weighs 4 lbs, everything works out of the box, and mostly without proprietary drivers including wireless, 3 USB ports, DVD/CD-R drive, a quick little core 2 duo processor, and the whole things costs $900 (it's a little extra with the wireless card.) Plus, you have the option of having Ubuntu preinstalled, or if you like, Fedora Core, instead.
I would suggest going with a Linux vendor - Penguin Computing, LinuxCertified etc. Ultimately market opportunity seen and exploited by these vendors will trickle up to likes of Dell.
Just go to System 76. They build better stuff anyway.
Gorkman
I ordered computers from the small business division 5 years ago with Redhat preinstalled. In fact they still offer it. Just go to Dell Small Business, then desktops, click on the open source desktop link, and then you can either select to build a system with freedos or they have a list of systems available with RHEL pre-installed.
If you select small business server, then you can get either SUSE or RHEL pre-installed.
Ubuntu is their consumer oriented linux option. Redhat is their business desktop oriented option, and SUSE is their server oriented option.
They may not offer your flavor pre-installed, but you can always get the freedos version and install ubuntu yourself. You just don't get the business support that you get from having redhat preinstalled.
Trying buying the PC online and use your corp card.
fuck dell with or without linux anyway.
HP is by large the major supplier of Linux servers in the world.
HP Proliant Linux servers has been and continue to sell very good.
Just but build one cheaper and better than Dell can...problem solved.
Allegedly, as no one (including ms) will disclose what patents are being violated... So we are just believing Microsoft now, and that linux is in fact violating patents? I am going to wait for Microsoft to say which ones are being violated, so the prior art and obviousness of the patents can have them thrown out in court.
If you want to buy your computers from a company built on FOSS principles, pro-non-profit, willing to help you with every step of the order, go to http://www.zareason.com/
Mod parent up. It is correct and informative. Emperor Linux has been a part of the Linux community for years, selling laptops with Linux pre-installed and drivers configured to work.
Dell tends to be a pain in the ass about only selling you the things they want to sell you. Good, and pertinent, example, is that Dell has it's own open source (freeDOS) computer line for businesses, that they refused to sell me back before the Ubuntu laptops came out. I'd recommend them too you, especially if you're small business (which, at least when I looked, had very good prices) but I have my doubts as to the things abilities to be Linux compatible.
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
Software *can* put an extraordinary strain on hardware though... like running IDE drives without DMA, etc.
But I still don't see how this could void a hardware warranty, or whether it would be legal to do so.
The article is misleading. Dell will sell businesses workstations and even servers with Linux on it, but not Ubuntu Linux. If you go to www.dell.com/linux, you can see that all the Linux-based business hardware is, in fact, RedHat.
It is quite obvious that Dell has a contractual agreement with RedHat that the only Linux that Dell will sell to business customers is RedHat, probably in exchange for RedHat kicking in support for those systems. They legally could NOT sell Ubuntu to this guy as a business, because it would have been a breach of contract with RedHat.
Don't want to pay the Microsoft tax and support Dell in its efforts to support Linux? Great! Buy a RedHat-based Linux workstation instead, then do what you want with it.
The
I've never had a problem with buying Dells without an OS on it. All you have to do is mirror your favorite distro, buy a machine with no OS, then FTP/NFS/etc the install. It may be stupid for Dell to not sell Ubuntu machines to businesses, but it's not the end of the world.
Is it just me or is 'selling' an open-source product like Ubuntu sort of an oxymoron in and of itself? Wouldn't it be ok to just buy the machine sans-os and put it on yourself for free, and tell the Dell CSR's to shove it up their lazy windows-pushing ass?
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
I was just looking at small business servers today, and they offer SUSE and RHEL on all of their server machines (at least the ones I looked at). I'll be buying one or two machines with no OS and installing CentOS, however, because I don't want to pay for SUSE or RHEL (support contracts).
Flamebait or troll, my friend, because you are completely diverting the conversation. Dell's not restricting the hardware you can buy, Dell's restricting the software, and that's something that Apple does all day long. When Apple offers an alternative operating system and does better than Dell, then you can talk.
What about to use HP and Debian: http://www.hp.com/go/debian
If I were in the UK. But I'm not. Adjective 1. having a specific orientation; an alternative British English form of the word oriented
The point of Open Source is that the service is what is being sold, not the software. It's just like getting work done at a machine shop or auto repair shop - the parts are less significant than the service.
And Dell's service in this case sounded like it sucked.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
Ten percent sales tax?
And I thought California was bad.
...and charging rediculous prices too.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
OS X doesn't cost anything extra, and the laptops are pretty damn nice, not to mention competitively priced. Load Bootcamp and install what you wish right along side. You could probably get help with the installation at the Genius Bar.
It would be nice if Apple had a group of standard installations, including Vista. Just download what you need, and pay for the license where required. It would make great business sense for corporate scenarios. A friend's trial support firm is switching to Windows from the Mac in order to standardize, but refuse to buy a Mac so that she can dual boot where required. What short sightedness!
I have never, in twenty five years of using Apple products had a failure, unless the machine was desperately old, and that turned out to be a battery! Whereas, the only Dell I ever owned, had a hard drive failure within months. Hence no more Dell's! At least get a Lenovo... Aside from the marginal cost differences, I cannot understand why people buy them, and subsequently Dell's poor service.
I never said he couldn't complain. But I have the right to think and state that americans will complain but not do anything about it, and because they don't do anything about it nothing gets acomplished. Amerians as Consumers are rather Dumb in general, not that I am saying Americans are Dumb just then general consumer habits. I just hate it when people are complaining about being stuck, but ignore or refuse the alternatives.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I doubt it. For one thing, there's this little area called antitrust law, under which I'm fairly sure Microsoft aren't allowed to pull that kind of stunt any more. For another thing, for a software company that is (relatively speaking) in big trouble to antagonise a hardware company that is (relatively speaking) one of its major routes to the business market is probably not a smart business move, either.
Besides, even if Dell start shipping Linux boxes to business, it's hardly likely that this will undermine Microsoft's dominant position on business desktops. It might even work in their favour to encourage this now: things like Linux GUIs and big name products like OpenOffice aren't ready to take on Microsoft in the business world yet. If a few big businesses try to make the switch now and find the OSS-based alternatives aren't good enough, word will get around (no pun intended!) and Microsoft are probably safe for another few years. Try the same experiment in another two or three years, though, and if current rates of progress are anything to go by in OSS world, Microsoft might find themselves with a much more permanent shift taking place that really would damage them seriously.
In other words, Microsoft probably isn't anywhere close to the bargaining power required to pull this off, and even if it were, it's probably illegal, and even if it were legal, it's probably shortsighted.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Of course, I've never had many problems with purpose-built systems either. Duh.
The problem is when people expect to plug in existing hardware that wasn't necessarily purchased off a Linux compatibility list because they just have it sitting around and expect it to work. My Wacom tablet works great on my desktop off a fresh Ubuntu install, but a fresh install from the same disk on a Dell Laptop and everything works fine, but the Wacom driver is suddenly all wonky. Just taking the volume of calls to tell people "sorry, piss off, we don't support that" would wipe out most of their profits.
If you based your business model on assuming everyone is the perfect little engineer like you who checks every device driver of every piece of hardware before purchase and staffed your call center accordingly, you'd have quite a line of angry customers demanding refunds, which I imagine is precisely what Dell are trying to keep to a minimum until they're confident they can turn a profit, support included, and not broadly alienate their customer base.
I smell a Microsoft agreement somewhere at the bottom of this. Do they sell other Linux distros for business? Do they sell any Microsoft OS based PC for home use only?
Hello DOJ. Are you looking into this? If this is true and because of Microsoft we have a major antitrust situation here!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
...and charging rediculous prices too.
Is that more than ridiculous prices?
I can't see why they don't offer a "No Operating System" option for their business machines, much like they do on their servers, and then just state that they won't support the software on any of these systems.
I am an ubuntu user and whatnot, but is Ubuntu supposed to be a business distro? I've heard of Ubuntu, Ubuntu server, Edubuntu and Ubuntu studio, No "Ubunsiness" (oh my gawd!) , Ubuntu does seem to be focused for home and no "work".
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
True, and that's why I haven't bought a machine from them :-) but it is true that they have been doing this for some time. They are a small reseller, and they are essentially charging you for the service of them installing your Linux and debugging the driver issues.
He has a right to complain. This idea that businesses are untouchable by consumers is ridiculous, and you need to get a /real/ education for your money - surely that Community College you've been enrolled in for eight years has more edifying coursework for you to focus on than this psuedo-fascist buzzword filled tripe.
Dell refused to sell because it was a corporate credit card. There was no why, who, where, what, or how issue. This was plain old simple declining a transaction AFTER the guy went to the right section of the Dell store. It is understandable if Dell wants to encourage or funnel certain market segments in certain directions. However, what they are doing here is more like cockblocking.
Here's what my Dell Higher Ed rep had to say a few weeks ago when I tried to order a Dell E520n with Ubuntu: "After much research, I determined that the Ubuntu versions are not available to higher ed customers for several reasons. As new units, we are not yet able to determine if Canonical can provide the support. Plus, there are production concerns. They are only available to U.S. consumers which means that you would not be able to purchase through the [sic] tax exempt customer number." I ordered it through the consumer side, and paid the tax.
www.itjerk.com
General purposes, sure. However, I just did it this month as a new version of Kerrighed required it. Lots of things require it, especially if you get into SMP, clustering, tediously specific hardware or embedded systems, you know, the things you're more likely to run into in the business/enterprise market than in the low-end home user market.
that argument when discussing Apple products too.
I've been hunting all over for some report on the actual sales numbers for these Dell Ubuntu systems and have come up empty so far. If anyone has any info or point me to a link I'd appreciate it.
- http://1linux.blogspot.com/
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Dell's people knows that Ubuntu is designed for home-use and not for business, they sell machines with debian for business-use ;-)
ghostbar page.
it is clearly listed on the website ... does he really need a salesperson paid minimum wage to tell him that?
For example: http://system76.com/
In December, I bought an Inspiron laptop fro Dell Denmark, and asked for a refund for the windows I wouldn't use.
The person I talked to promised to look into it, resulting in the message that if I didn't accept the Windows EULA, they'd take back the machine...
"The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Well, I would say just buy the machine anyway then load Ubuntu if you want it that bad. Does anyone know the details of any agreements between Dell and Microsoft. There may be something there as a part of Dell being able to load Windows on their computers that may only allow them to offer "other solutions" for the Home & Home Office/personal use markets.
I could ask for an AMD cpu. This is the primary reason I passed system76 up on my last laptop purchase.
I'm no Dell fanboy, but I don't understand why you would reject buying the Dell based on this experience. If you want to run Linux on the machine, just do it. No one is stopping you from doing so. It's not as if you can just waltz over to the next large manufacturer and get a Linux-preloaded system. Reject the machine if the cost or the hardware performance is an issue, not because they didn't give you Ubuntu.
System76.com While I am no fan of DELL, the Kmart of computers. They barley support business and when it comes to personal computers they are just a sad little company. They don't care about support and they really don't care about Ubuntu. It's a PR thing more than it a real attempt to offer something other than Windows. DELL has once again shot themselves in the foot with this one. Call Carl @ System76.com and ask him to hook you up. They are a top rate Ubuntu store with killer support. Forget DELL they are to big and to widget driven to care about anything else. -David
David Vasta iSeries(AS/400) Admin & Junkie
Looking at the Dell Website, it looks like all the components for the Ubuntu systems are a dollar or so more (Processors 1-3 dollars more than Windows box, same with Monitors, etc). Interesting....
1) The build the cost of OSX into the price of the machine.
2) Apple PC's use the same hard drives as Dell, IBM, HP, and home built computers
3) Businesses that standardize on Windows don't want Apple PC's. They don't want to dual boot user workstations, and they don't want to deal with the extra complexity. They also don't want to pay those prices for the name Apple, like consumers do. The Apple notebooks aren't as overpriced as the Mac Pro, but they aren't an inexpensive option.
4) Dell's business support is pretty good.
5) He wants to buy a machine, with a free OS, without the big fuss. A Mac + BootCamp + Ubuntu + unsupported = Not What He Wants.
Macintoshes aren't always the solution. Get over it.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Even though pricing out two similar systems with one being more expensive you have to remember that not all systems are created equally.
Dig down and compare things like chipsets and things like measured memory performance before you decide that two systems are actually comparable (even two systems with the same major chipsets can have different performance characteristics). Also, make sure you are getting the same number and type of expansion slots (for Desktops anyway).
I avoid places like Dell because you can't control which motherboard you are getting (you get some unnamed Dell-branded one with no detailed technical specs) which has a big impact on system performance.
And finally, consider the value of your dollar based on it's influence in the market. "I'm going to buy from your competitor" has different market impact than "well, I'll buy from you to save $100 even though I don't like it".
I can't vouch for System76 as I have never used them but I sure like the idea and would strongly consider supporting them if I was in the market (however, I would rather get a new Apple laptop to replace my old G4 PowerBook, I've been using BSD-based systems for nearly 25 years). And again, I look at total value, not just price -- but even then, when I price out laptops to be truly similar to the Apple's I don't find any significant price difference. (Don't forget to include battery-life, screen resolution, brightness, contrast, overall quality, firewire support, etc when comparing laptops).
I don't know what the hell people in this discussion are smoking. Dell most definitely supports linux on many of their configurations for small/large business and government divisions. They don't sell SuSE on most of the laptops or desktops, but the higher-end workstation ones do have them as options. They sell RHEL service contracts on the servers, and even go through the trouble of making the configurators hide options that different OSs don't support. And they will never tell you that you voided your warranty because you installed a different OS (no matter what it is).
Home/Home Office is the shitty, loss-leader part of Dell. Don't deal with them. Ever.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
FYI, the Xeons are Core2-based. X5355s or some such. They only sell the stuff that's in the sweet spot of the power/throughput/cost curve; they're doing half the work for you.
18 months ago they were selling Celerons and Pentium Dxxx parts for like NAS-roles but they are getting out of that market since everyone else sells that stuff too. For example... Dell PE860, with a Pentium D935 and 1GB RAM and RHEL 5 WS is like $1500... no point trying to compete with that.
But like the Altus 3400? Dell didn't have anything like that until the 6950 and even then it's like 50% more expensive through Dell.
Also, FYI... The same company manufactures most Compaq/HP, Sun, and Penguin x86-type servers. Penguin is usually the cheapest for what is essentially the same stuff in the high-volume segment.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
1) The business models are _not_ expensive. $1500 gets you a beast if you know what to get.
2) The consumer models really fucking suck, and the support sucks. That's part of why you pay $1000+-- support on "business" models is actually pleasant.
3) Linux is fully supported on models it is installed on.
4) Red Hat and SuSE will support you if you have _any_ Dell hardware; all of it is supported stock anyway because it is so common.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Weak. You completely missed the point. The guy wanted to buy an Ubuntu laptop to support Dell's decision to sell Ubuntu, and he wanted to buy it for his business. He found that he could not do this, and he is doing something about it: telling others. All your "alternatives" do not do what he intended to do, which is to support Dell in its decision to sell Ubuntu. However, bad press -- which is what this is -- may cause Dell to rethink its arbitrary decision not to sell business laptops with Ubuntu, or at least clarify their position.
Your comments about "Americans" notwithstanding, consumers can get an awful lot by complaining. There's an old saying in business: "A satisfied customer tells one person, and a dissatisfied customer tells ten". Companies worry about this because bad press is bad for their bottom line. Complaining about service (or lack thereof) is a tried and tested way to hit a company where it hurts, ie, financially. Getting burned quietly and then voting with your feet has a far smaller impact.
This is just another example of why I do not purchase Dell systems unless explicity requested by a customer. I always recommend alternatives, but many IT depts simply love Dell. WHY? What _exactly_ makes Dell a better system than others? Price? What, please tell me. Dell hardware is OK, but dealing with the commerical problems is just infuriating. I have purchased HP, IBM, Acer, and some Mom/Pop brands and very had the commerical issues I've experienced with Dell.
It doesn't matter what OS they use, large companies usually have this kind of retarded inertia. If it's not one thing, it's another - it comes with the territory.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Do you like throwing money away? Good thing you went with the Asus. (Now try getting support... I've had nothing but problems with them).
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Not that I disagree with the sentiment that you should take your business elsewhere, but there are other options. Buy the computer on a personal card, get reimbursed by your company then file paperwork with Dell to get your tax reimbursed. It's not optional for them, if you can show proof that you're non-profit.
Then make a complaint as high up as you can escalate it that the policy is stupid.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
Ubuntu is not that good. If they sold it through the business side it would be a support nightmare not to mention all the returned PCs. When you order a PC you expect it to just work, Ubuntu has not solved this.
I think the reason dell does this is fairly obvious. Small business sales at dell have different service policies than home sales. For example they get US tech support rather than tech support outsourced to India. They have different on-site repair policies. The computer selection is different too. And of course they probably have greater risks in case of negligence with businesses. So they presumably want to dry run the linux model in the consumer market before investing in the infrastructure to support it in business. e.g. easier to temporarily hire an outsource crew that can do Linux support than to retrain your US staff.
Now as for why not accept the business credit card on the consumer web site. Well that has nothing to do with this being a linux machine. That's just their policy in general. I'm sure they'd love to make an exception for linux machines, except that the market is so tiny why bother to have policy exceptions. People would exploit them and pretty soon you'd have businesses buying the $399 consumer entry-level dells rather than the business class machines then turning around and getting angry when they get outsourced tech support.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Poster is economically-clueless, just as I would expect from a probably left-leaning non-profit.
A non-profit, by definition, does not make a profit.
A business, by contrast, has as its chief (if not sole) responsibility the duty of making a profit.
The two entities could not be more different in this regard.
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
I've bought several pre-installed Linux systems (desktops and notebooks) from Red Seven Linux here in Phoenix. I have no idea if they have any type of phone order services (and no, I don't work for them :-)
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
...but they should have considered offering their own supported version -distro- of linux one minute after the DOJ settled with MS. If one guy sitting in an apartment can pump out a distro, one might think Dell could if they really tried.
heck, they might one day, it's getting pretty easy to make clone distros. Then they could offer a truly supported linux in house and keep the cash for themselves. MS might throw a fit, but if Dell offered total support for business desktops, with office and email and messaging and calendaring and spread sheets, etc, as an alternative, they'd get some bites.
I think MS power is waning now that the total cost of hardware is less than what they charge for some copied digital bits of grade C- quality software (for the most part). You can see it with the threats of patents and lawsuits (no need at all if they didn't feel threatened, is there?) and the three dollar "third world" stripped down system they have started pushing (pirates set the actual true market price of what software and entertainment digital bits are really worth,and that is cost of copying plus a very small markup, hence MS 3 buck deal, it's designed to compete with the pirates). They *know* the days of high priced software are rapidly coming to an end for most purposes and most people.
20 years ago, sure, there was a need for expensive software-it didn't exist in enough forms yet. Today, 95% of what most people do is covered handily, with more than one alternative, at the cheap or free level, or they already bought it, it's working, and no radical need to change. 10 years from now I doubt there will be 1% high priced software left in the total software market-there won't be any need anymore, because the alternatives will exist in great numbers.
MS is going down. Inevitable now. An operating system and application to type up business documents is not worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars. It's maybe worth ten or 20 dollars, tops. that people still pay the big bucks for their stuff is economic inertia more than anything else, and past artificially created vendor lockin, with formats, etc.
but that's going away fast now.
I expect adobe to last longer than MS with high priced software.
bad car analogy time
MS is the GM of the software world, huge, lumbering ten years behind the times, and so convinced of their own superiority that they can't even *see* what is happening in front of their face. GM killed off the EV1, toyota started selling the prius.
Look what ten years has done in that industry, Toyota is cleaning up and taking GMs lunch money, giving them wedgies, and pissing in their cornflakes, and GM *still* doesn't get it. Talking about maybe having a half assed hybrid in a few years that will cost loads more than toyota's and not deliver as much. They stood around and didn't care about gas prices because all the bosses are so rich at GM they didn't even stop to think what gas prices were doing to their own customers. They stood around and didn't care that broken cars were annoying their customers. they didn't care enough, they couldn't even see it. Just too stupid and arrogant, all the way to junk bond status. Design innovation with them is slap some new sheet metal around 25 year old technology.
And that's all MS does now, slap some new sheet metal around past glory and the profit margins they made way back when.. They just do not get it yet. Ya, still making billions, but it's going down. the only reason it hasn't gone down faster is all their stockholders are just as dumb and don't realize how close they are for their products to only be worth ten bucks, and they know if they all start to sell, they all will lose..so they just sit on it, hoping that cheap free and open and already paid for and working good enough will just "go away".
wishful freaking thinking. 10 years, tops, MS will be selling for around 10 to 20 dollars for an OS & office bundle in the first world, and giving it to systems builders like Dell for like 2 bucks.
App
IIRC most merchant agreements with credit card companies do not allow them to refuse a legitimate card (or to prefer a different payment method) except for anti-fraud reasons. While I don't think that a single complaint to the bank will cause them to drop an account like Dell, I think that repeated complaints will cause them to sit up and take notice.
Windows is a bonfire, Linux is the sun. Linux only looks smaller if you lack perspective.
We wouldn't want to talk to people we can't understand and who have no knowledge of the product they are supporting.
+++ATH0
When I was a phone support guy for photo labs a while back, the way the call center worked was customers would call in, explain their problem to an administrator, and then we would call the customer back based on whether or not we knew how to handle their issue, usually within about 15 minutes.
I learned very, very quickly never to take any calls whose business names included the words "Happy, Lucky, Golden, Phoenix, or Dragon," because without fail, I could never understand a damn thing they were saying. Thankfully, we had two guys on the team who spoke Chinese, so those calls still got taken.
+++ATH0
While I don't think this is right of Dell, another option for Buessness + Dell + Ubuntu + support would be to buy a Dell with no OS or buy one with Windows and do not accept the EULA at which entitles you to a small refund for Windows. Load Ubuntu and get OS support from Canonical.
You want fun, go home and buy a monkey!
I read about you here starkruzr:
t icleid=41095&cpage=208#feedbackAnchor
http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?ar
Never listen to this moron about computers, because I found his name there and it is a hilarious read.
So why did they start offering ubuntu, if they're not going to offer ubuntu? Half steps make for a long slow journey.
Guy Cook Internet Marketing and Consulting Solutions since 1995.
Are you forgetting that almost from the day Colleen Kollar-Kotelly signed on as general counsel with Mr. Smith, the DoJ is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation?
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
I never thought it was worth the money even when it was saying something to get Linux installed on a Laptop.
Now these days there's nothing to it. It's just a matter of picking the right laptop. Quite often, you just get lucky.
Staying away from drek components helps. Then again, that's always helped. It's even helped with Windows.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I don't know why everyone is so hung up on Dell anyways. There are several other computer manufacturers that will sell you a computer with Ubuntu pre-installed. Or, buy a Dell and install Ubuntu yourself (It's not that hard to do!) if you like Dell computers. The 'support' is not really even necessary anyways, we're not talking about Windows here.
I keep forgetting that our Department of Justice hasn't stood for Justice for about six years now.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Watch out, APK! You're killing your e-stalking case!
+++ATH0
"I think it's HILARIOUS to harass YOU online. Just you. Only you." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Friday March 30, @12:21AM (#18539431)
.mp3 files they sung (stolen from southpark - Reimer's trademark is a lack of originality) here:
StarKruzr,
I looked you up @ slashdot, because of the lunacy you posted @ Jeremy Reimer's forums here about myself & yourself:
"Hi guys. I'm another Arsian who has managed to get entangled in APK's dumbassery" - StarKruzr Midshipman
You started it up with myself, everytime, & evidence of that is below - you kept it up here @ slashdot, after you did it at techpowerup.com forums, & lastly/lately @ WindowsITPro! Evidences of that are all over the web where you cannot edit it out or impersonate me, & they are below.
Same stuff I showed the police yesterday (and they told me I have a definite WIN vs. Jeremy Reimer & Jay Little on Aggravated Harassment AND Libel as well).
This URL (the same one Jeremy Reimer posted my families' home address in, & Evil_Merlin made threats vs. they in):
http://www.wowdailynews.com/pegasus/phpbb2/viewtop ic.php?t=4128&start=500&sid=837c7981b75f7ed3faaf3b da68f73b22
Listen starkruzr:
I never wanted any hassles with you, why are you trying to ruin your life over Reimer, when he is showing you he does not care WHO he takes down with him?
Heck, I did not even KNOW who you were, until you posted here bothering myself first (after you tried it @ techpowerup.com, noted below):
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=889 edb5f1ee4cd22eee33bc580b0e190&p=207262#post207262
And started up crap with me. I knew you were an arstechnica member though, and sure enough: You are, & I caught you in your lunacy, posting as others no less (what you say I do? You all do, yourselves, as your std. practice/modus operandi).
I don't understand you - I had nothing going with yourself, whatsoever! Don't you understand that nut Reimer is obsessed with myself (is he gay or something? I don't get it!)
After all, your fellow arstechnica friends Jeremy Reimer &/or Jay Little, not until they began pursuing me all over harassing myself, & libelling myself in edited photos &
http://www.pegasus3d.com/download/apk.jpg
http://pegasus3d.com/download/apksong2000+++.mp3
pegasus3d.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1& topic=10
"Anyway the "APK" registered here is just an affectionate clone of the original. In fact I prefer him to the original." - Jeremy Reimer - March 25, 2005
& they many times harassing myself under "alternate guises" (as you had in your JTD/StarKruzr fiasco that got you caught @ techpowerup.com).
HONEST QUESTION:
"I think it's HILARIOUS to harass YOU online. Just you. Only you." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Friday March 30, @12:21AM (#18539431)
Don't you know, that your stating that, is only going to get you into trouble?
Why are you doing this to me? What had I EVER done to you?? I don't even KNOW you man! Why? Just because I have gotten the better of yourselves head-to-head, getting you to admit you are WRONG (as I did with Jay Little regarding what he said he was "an expert in", in Exchange Server (windowsitpro.com), & on Ramdisks (ntcompatible.com) & yourself lately here, on Windowsitpro.com, saying my points (only a couple you admit make sense, the portions on DLL's you noted I am correct on as well (read it, know it, drink it in & digest it for your own skillset - it is HOW IT IS, & how I state
It's going to be very difficult to prove any kind of harm (which is what is required for a lawsuit -- you are suing for compensation for damages, after all) from any of this. You make yourself a giant target, Alex, and when people take potshots at you, you respond with a flight of twelve ICBMs and make yourself look absolutely crazy in the process. Any lawyer who reads all of the rants you've written is going to conclude that he cannot advocate your case -- and he WILL have to do that, if you're actually going to sue JR, JL, and whoever Evil Merlin is.
You have a history that is larger than just the WITPro article, Slashdot and OSY. You know this. Any competent defense attorney is going to assemble a titanic mass of evidence against your character and demolish your credibility, possibly setting himself up for a juicy countersuit (for time lost and wages lost) in the process.
I really wish you would just drop this crusade of yours, for your own sake, and go join a Buddhist monastery for a few years or something and just cool off. The fact that you've actually gotten the police involved alarms me, because it tells me you're taking this smoke and mirrors game and trying to turn it real life. I think you stand a good chance of seriously damaging your own life in the process.
+++ATH0
"It's going to be very difficult to prove any kind of harm (which is what is required for a lawsuit -- you are suing for compensation for damages, after all) from any of this." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Saturday June 23, @10:53PM (#19625043)
.mp3 song about Jeremy Reimer, ripped off from Southpark no less, showing his lack of originality & creativity no less, about he, but he did of me.
Ever heard of defamation of character, & libel? Plenty of harm in that. Especially online, because computers are where I make a living & have for years. Where are they discussed?? Online mostly.
You guys trying to wreck MY rep is difficult, because I use those "ICBM's" you talk about above, & you provide them for me, via your misdoings!
Hey - The policemen who know far more than yourself about laws, felt otherwise. They would have up & left without filing a report if that were the case. By the way, are you an attorney, & do you possess a degree in law??
"You make yourself a giant target, Alex, and when people take potshots at you, you respond with a flight of twelve ICBMs and make yourself look absolutely crazy in the process." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Saturday June 23, @10:53PM (#19625043)
LOL, ok - look, on the ICBM's part:
You guys provide the ammunition... & plenty of it!
Why else did the police even file a report for me?
See the post that is parent to your own as to evidences I'd have used to blow away ANY defense attorney's b.s.!
(AND, that is only a SMALL fraction of it, & searching "APK" at episteme.arstechnica.com provides FAR MORE)...
That stuff is libel (especially what Jeremy Reimer did - most of it doesn't bother me, it only proves who REALLY got the better of whom is all, & who acted like an adult during this whole thing (I never made edited libellous photos of he, but he did of myself).
E.G. #1 -> I never sang a stupid
E.G. #2 -> I did not get caught & chastised by my ISP/BSP as Reimer did for email harassement, but Reimer did.
E.G. #3 -> I never put up a petition saying "JAY LITTLE MUST BE PUT TO DEATH", but he did of me.
E.G. #4 -> I never got my website removed by my hosting provider for misdoings, but Jay Little did (by CrystalTech.com).
E.G. #5 -> I did not go to your arstechnica forums or OSY/Pegasus3d.com/wowdailynews.com & start up a libel campaign (falsehoods being posted about you guys) but you certainly did of me @ techpowerup.com.
E.G. #6 -> I did not go to your arstechnica forums or OSY/Pegasus3d.com/wowdailynews.com & start up a libel campaign (falsehoods being posted about you guys) but you certainly did of me @ techpowerup.com.
Since 2000-2001, you arstechnica people have kept it up, & have YET to get the better of me. I never start it, you always do, & for what? Just because I prove you are NOT who you often claim to be OR are out to prove you are imo: Experts on computing largely. I will tell you for what:
Your "geek angst" - you can't handle you had yourselves beaten @ every turn on facts you largely seem to think are YOUR ballcourt - computing.
It's guys like you that got beaten up in highschool, because you operate like women (gossip, libel, & b.s. + lies (which you were caught in saying you were a woman, & lol, then a man).
Jarrett DeAngelis/jtd/starkruzr - you may not like this, but this is only facts (& nothing hurts like the truth).
I am here to TRY to make peace with you, because I have tried to with Jay Little & Jeremy Reimer, to no avail & for years really... They do NOT respond to reason, and their ISP/BSP's & hosting providers show who is "in the right here" & it is NOT they...
The police taking a report vs. they? Again, who is right here, they or I?? If I had no case, I would not have gotten a report done by they.
In fact, Jeremy Reimer called you "the greatest single assemblage of talent there is online" & his '