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Pre-Installed Linux On Dells Coming
When Michael Dell took back the reins of he company he founded, one of the first things he did was to launch the feedback site Dell Idea Storm. Following up on the recent Slashdot discussion of the early results of this experiment — an overwhelming expressed desire for pre-loaded Linux — Dell reports on what it plans to do with this feedback. Quoting: "[W]e are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. [On the question of which distro to choose:] "[T]here is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux... We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line."
As long as "Linux" has the drivers for the hardware. That's all that matters.
If dell keeps this up for any amount of time, we could see a large upswing in the usage of linux on the desktop. Here's to this being more than a pipe dream.
Today's lucky number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I'd buy a Dell. But an exploding penguin is uncool.
I hope Ubuntu is an option. First, because it's a stable and easy to install distribution and it just works. I have installed it on a number of platforms and have been very pleased. Its package management system is awesome. I don't have the broken dependency issues I use to have with Fedora/Red Hat.
Second, it has both versions available to the public for free being the Long Term Support release and the more bleeding edge. Unlike Red Hat, Ubuntu is willing to "eat its own dog food." Even on the more bleeding edge releases of Ubuntu I don't get the impression that I am running a broken beta release like I did on Fedora.
Third, if you want to utilize it within the workplace you can sell it to management that there is official support available via Canonical, although there are other means of support as well. In addition it has already gained commercial acknowledgement through vendors such as Sun, IBM, and MySQL etc.
Last, but not least because it's completely free Dell can install it on a system and not have to add the associated cost of a license. Perhaps let the user make a donation for each installation of Ubuntu?
Just watch. They'll put Linux on one overpriced laptop, won't make it cheaper than the version with Windows and Office, and will hide the order page for it. Then they'll claim the market doesn't want Linux.
Because if they do more than that, Microsoft will cut their discount.
Dell used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.
Wal-Mart used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.
HP used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.
Dell used to distribute redhat 7.2 back in the day (most of the support links still have it listed). That didn't last too long.
I fear the Y2038 bug
http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/dell/ ;)
Several other good manufacturers, to boot.
Rock solid, hard drive laid out to your taste, including dual boot configurations with that lesser operating system.
My biggest quibble is they don't Gentoo, but if you're batty enough to run that (like me) you probably know what to do.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
This is a good start to what is needed, but why only business machines, would be nice for home also.
I do appreciate Dell doing this. Really, I do.
But I fear the coming of the Linux Crapplets. I fear what happens when AOL starts placing icons on my Gnome desktop.
And I pray that Dell does the right thing and drops the crapplets -- insist that they stop paying per machine sold and start just paying for Windows licenses sold, and use the money saved there to avoid preloading random crap other than the OS.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Could someone kindly translate that beancounter speak into something I can understand more readily?
Thanks in advance.
This is a nice idea for home users. If they could find some decent accounting and other business software, I'd consider it. As is, I just can't use Linux for business because it's lacking so much software.
I don't respond to AC's.
This would give the best range of options for desktops... giving a high degree of quality as well since everything is custom compiled from source.
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
When Dell decided to follow through with the Idea Storm idea I was reminded of something that happened after the Super Bowl a couple years back and keeps happening occasionally. Something will happen on TV or radio and about 20 people from Focus on the Family will freak out about it and complain to the FCC over and over again. The FCC then freaks out and does something stupid like increasing censorship or fines. Similarly when the dedicated Linux community decided to take over Idea Storm they should've been ignored as they are simply an extremely vocal minority. That Dell is considering wasting that money is a sign that Dell is desperate and instead of making better looking or cheaper computers they will instead cater to the extremist elements in the IT society. It's too bad. I really like my Dell but if they are going to waste their resources on this fruitless endeavor then I'll take my money elsewhere.
*The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best - and therefore never scrutinize or question.*
.. by listening to their customers who want quality computers that do not break down and also bundle poor support.
.dll files for failing Dell pcs. Incredible!
I did a consulting job for help desk at a gaming company and more than always it was odd dell desktops and laptops that had issues or had very bad drivers. Dell loves to modify their video hardware so vanilla nvidia and ati drivers wont work. Sometimes new laptops have drivers from 2005 that wont run many games properly and no recourse to upgrade the drivers.
Also I have never seen techs load tcp/ip stacks on systems that fail to authenticate to a domain controller. Sound odd? It happens with Dell corporate desktops. At a former college they had a guy whose sole job was to run around with a diskette that had the proprietary tcp/ip stack
http://saveie6.com/
As if anyone needs reminding, the caption in Dell's ideas in action page says "Dell recommends Windows Vista(TM) Business." Will Dell soon be recommending Novell's distro, together with its nonesensical patent-indemnification FUD?
..don't read the article. This is nothing new for Dell- their corporate customers have always had more options than retail. They're not going to sell Linux desktops on their Website. Dell has been lying about their Linux offerings for years, and is still lying. Even worse, this is only the Novell edition, which means you're still paying the Microsoft tax.
Gee. Thanks, Dell! We users wouldn't be able to define the market on our own without your permission.
http://outcampaign.org/
I certainly appreciate the idea here, and hope they're doing this for the right reasons (not some of the cynical-but-possibly-true ideas posted in this thread elsewhere). But I've never known two Linux users who preferred the same setup. Ubuntu here, Redhat there, BeOS, OpenBSD, and so on. I'm a Windows guy for the most part, but have run installations of all of these here and there over the years. I don't quite know how they're going to implement something like this and please much of anyone. With Windows or OSX, you get one default installation and you adjust it cosmetically a little bit (though at the OS level it's pretty much the same). With all the flavors of Linux, you can set it up almost any way you want.
It's great that the system cost might be lower if the Windows tax isn't applied, but is anyone who prefers Linux really going to use whatever comes installed? Most will wipe it as soon as they get it, just like you would if you ordered a Windows box/laptop. I think what would be nice (though certainly not a productive business model for Dell) would be to step up their options for OS-free machines and then put the energy otherwise spent on Linux installations on creating a repository of drivers for ALL platforms for their hardware. That way you could install whatever the hell you want but have some help with the hardware fun that all Linux users spend so much time on.
Linux users, for the overwhelmingly large part, seem to me to be roll-your-own types, and fairly advanced in their understanding of stuff like this compared to their Windows (and even OSX) counterparts. So why not work with that instead of making this "Linux alternative" option viable?
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I will buy a Dell for my next laptop, if it comes preloaded with a decent Linux distro and without a bunch of crap. (I will not pay for the crap.)
I'll even buy it if it isn't a distro I like.
However' if you really want to blow us away, Dell, give us a few of the configurable install options available via the website -- preferably without Flash or excessive JavaScript required. Maybe a web-based debian-installer? Because I'd like to be able to choose filesystem, partitioning scheme, and base distro (maybe from a limited selection -- hell, just Ubuntu and Fedora would probably satisfy most people who would care about pre-installed). I want to be able to choose these not because I am such a nerd, but because they aren't easy to change after an install -- which is probably why Dell lets you choose FAT32 or NTFS when ordering an XP computer.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
RHEL on Precision workstations. I noticed them on the Dell site several weeks ago.
And we had a story a couple of months back about getting Linux on their "E" series systems (IIRC).
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I don't care what distribution they settle on, as long as they don't rely on proprietary drivers. From my POV if it is running some kind of mainstream Linux distro, the odds that my preferred distro will work are very much higher.
That is what is I call leadership. This guy is about as different from other CEOs as Steve jobs was from all of his predecessors; they were loved by wall street, but hated by the customers.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Burning down houses and forcing IT guys to clean up systems with 128 MB of RAM only tops my list of complaints with Dell. At least Linux won't be as memory intensive as Windows so that being said I hope we don't see (further) stagnation in increasing the minimum amount of RAM in their bottom line.
- John
http://www.jabcreations.com/
#1. The "support" has to include ALL the hardware on the box.
#2. The boxes have to be the most popular boxes Dell sells already.
#3. The price cannot be higher than the equivalent Windows box.
We've already seen "support" which doesn't include everything in the box, which only includes boxes that most people wouldn't buy in the first place and which, for some reason, cost MORE than buying the same box with Windows.
That's just a ploy to "show" that "no one" really wants Linux on the desktop. Fuck Dell. We've heard it before. If they're really serious this time, it's up to them to demonstrate that.
I always get my medications from the Borgias , why do you ask?
No wonder MSFT is not objecting to Dell selling non windows machines ( if in fact they did not).
Did Novell know this when they signed on with MSFT?
Will anything be available but SUSE?
A scenario: Dell sells SUSE exclusively, SUSE degrades because of FOSS comm. dislike and GPLv3.
MSFT says "I told you it wasn't vey good, use an OS supported by professionals".
Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows. Here are the specs and links to Dell's online shop:
Processor: Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo T5500 (1.66GHz) 2M L2 Cache, 667Mhz Dual Core
LCD Panel: 14.1 inch XGA LCD Panel
Memory: 512MB, DDR2-533 SDRAM
Hard drive: 60GB 5400RPM
Modular Bay Optical: 8X DVD
Wi-Fi Wireless Card: Dell Wireless(TM) 1390 802.11g Mini Card
All other options: set to "none".
The laptop loaded with Windows XP costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system costs $747.
So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten, and I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't going to end up in an anti-trust lawsuit against Dell and Microsoft.
If Dell does start offering preinstalled linux (big IF) I would guess they would go with one of the more "user-friendly" distros ie Ubu or SuSE. Anyone who would use something else probably knows enough to install it themselves. Or maybe they could bundle a CD/DVD of your distro of choice? Its just sad that a company has to be on the verge of bankruptcy to start looking at alternatives to lock-in software, or the revolutionary concept of actually LISTENING TO YOUR CUSTOMERS!! What a thought!
How awesome would it be if Dell began manufacturing a media center box with MythTV installed? Maybe KnoppMyth? Who knows, maybe Dell would consider tweaking some code to make MythTV user friendly for newbies....
Sure but does it run Linux? ............ oh.
[alk]
I don't get it, you've been able to buy Linux on a new Dell for years now. It just wasn't stuck in your face when configuring a machine. How is this any different?
"The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747.
So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten,"
All major brand-name computers come with a ton of crapware pre-installed. Why do you think they do that? Because they get PAID to put in there. When you eliminate Windows, you also eliminate the extra revenue from pre-installed crapware.
I certainly don't want windows and I really don't like this Novell M$ deal. I want to install a version of Linux of my own choice. So sell me a laptop without any OS. Why the hell do these companies get away of peddling this crappy software I don't want?
Could soon be who killed mainstream linux. I know alot of people at my school who would take linux on there laptops and such. Going through engineering you realize as long as you can run the internet and run word documents you can usually find something more powerful to run anything else you need to.
I appreciate that thinking, so if they choose Novell SuSE LInux I think they'd alienate almost all Linux users.
I bought a Dell workstation about a 1.5 years ago with RedHat WS pre-installed.
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I've got an HP laptop that has an Nvidia video card, a Winmodem and an ENE memory card driver. None of these devices have proper drivers in Linux. If Dell starts selling laptops or even PCs preloaded with Linux, presumably they are going to have a "normal" linux driver for every peripheral device. That can only mean that companies like ENE would have to start providing kernel developers with documentation to write a kernel driver for their device.
You can't keep a good thing down forever. The masses obviously want Linux on PCs and laptops and it will only be a matter of time before a customer responsive company (Dell or otherwise) answers the call. The fact that Dell advertised for ideas and got such an overwhelming response requesting Linux means it something that can no longer be ignored.
So, does this mean that the end user will now save a few bucks since they don't have to pay for a Windows license?
Could it be that you are an idiot?
If you read the press release, the wording is quite plain and out in the open. They aren't going to, nor are they planning, on offering any systems with any distro of Linux preinstalled. All they're offering is to get more systems 'certified' with primarily Dell's distros of choice (RHEL and Novell,) and then possibly more distros as well. Of course, these systems will most likely also be moved off into the 'n' series line - which will probably cause it to be a failure. If they -really- want to impress me, they need to not only throw the Inspiron line in there (there are already 'n' series Dimensions,) but offer the No OS option, /or/ a Linux Distro option (even if they don't install it, and just ship media with it,) right there on the regular purchase page.
If they don't, it's little more than a token gesture to try to make the minority happy.
(But on an unrelated note - it's good to see Michael stepping back up and taking charge of things. Dell plumetted even downhill than it usually is when he wasn't leading things.)
Let's hope the Dell Linux business takes off, big time. Thousands of units shipped... a double digit percentage of their business...all with Open Office... all working nicely...
Finally, a kick in the gut for Microsoft's Vista and Office 2007 prices.
I'm a software visionary. I don't code.
Certification is a *very* low bar for Dell to achieve. In general it means that the system can be installed, and the graphical user interface can come up, that is it.
The cost for an OEM to pre-install and support Linux properly is currently far higher that Windows. This is because of the variance in distributions and the general maturity of Linux from support perspective. And of course Dell is all about support (well, more correctly, Dell's business model is logistics, and each support contact costs eats into their profit and loss for the system.
In most cases, they don't even contact the IHV to ensure that the drivers for that hardware will work. Even without a preload,ensuring that a level of driver support is available would be a huge boon.
Now I can order Linux, and install windows 98 to stick it to the man.
God spoke to me.
This is one small step for Dell, and one giant leap for the open source movement.
$50 says Microsoft will try and sue dell when they "support" linux (tech support) without buying "vouchers" from the MS/Novell deal.
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
While it wouldn't surprise me if that were true, the two links you posted are both at $699 now. Did Dell see your post and update their cost?
Aside from that point, if you look closely the two laptops are slightly different model numbers--D520 vs. D520N. Additionally, any system configuration from Dell always has a tendency to go up in price when you customize their advertised offers. As soon as you make any change to the configuration, you often loose some discount or another.
In the long run however, I think they would do well if they also (note also, not instead - more choices are better, and in this case it's an option that adds to their sale) offered a system pre-configured with either a Dual-Boot or possibly virtualization software for running Windows under Linux. The discounted Windows Licenses Dell gets don't cost all that much extra, and they are more likely to win over new-Linux users by providing the Windows fallback. Of course, for the sake of argument I'm ignoring any caveats in the windows agreements against such virtualization arrangements.
It really makes you wonder. First, Novell makes a shady deal with Microsoft, and now Dell is in talks with Novell to offer Linux or their computers. Personally, I would keep a close watch on Microsoft's reaction to this, as they may have some stake in it. Not to be a cynic, but the whole series of events seems to be unfolding rather unusually.
I won't be buying one!
I bought a Dell E521 in October. Installed Ubuntu on it (dual boot). After about five minutes, the mouse would stop working (the E521 uses a USB only mouse). You could re-plug the mouse USB connector and it would start working again - for about five minutes. Tried all sorts of things including a complete re-install. No dice. Checked the Dell and Ubuntu news groups. I was not the only person experiencing this problem and it occurred with several other distributions. Several people had contacted Dell - which provided no help (other than to say they don't support Linux). Several had returned their machines.
In January, Dell released a new firmware upgrade. The upgrade notes made no mention of the Linux problem but after I re-flashed the firmware, the problem disappeared. So, if Dell starts testing their hardware and BIOS with various Linux distros - that will be a very good thing.
[Insert pithy quote here]
I guess they'll just have to port all the crapware to linux too!
I fear the Y2038 bug
Clearly we need to *demand* crapware for Linux then! :D
Dell executives have donated $291,470 to Republicans and only $40,818 to Democrats.
Why would I want my pro-Linux dollars shooting me in the foot?
Linux on the desktop will always be a pipe dream. Why? Because Linux refuses to address it's fundamental deficiencies. How many decades longer will it take to get a real installer package which works on every distro? How many decades longer will it take to get the OS to auto-detect and auto-configure new hardware? How many decades longer does Linux need to spend looking at the distant taillights of Windows 95?
But on the positive side, Linux wins hands-down in the "air of undeserved superiority" department, and it also has more text editors than any other OS. When you have tens of thousands of options for text editing, it seems you really don't have to worry about getting it to work as well as Win95 did.
Dell's overtures toward Linux are nothing more than a bargaining chip in it's licensing fees with Microsoft. Consumers don't care about/for Linux, they just want something they know and can use. If someone drops a few hundy on a new PC then finds out they can't go to Best Buy to get software for it, that's going to be one pissed off consumer. Dell has no intention of looking bad in that respect, so Linux on the desktop will never be a reality. Servers, maybe. But desktops, never.
Windows on the desktop also sucks. What's your point?
Umm... that system you linked to is $669. Maybe they've changed it after you linked it to make you look foolish!
All major brand-name computers come with a ton of crapware pre-installed. Why do you think they do that? Because they get PAID to put in there. When you eliminate Windows, you also eliminate the extra revenue from pre-installed crapware.
Does Dell make more money from the crapware than they pay to Microsoft?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Umm... that system you linked to is $669. Maybe they've changed it after you linked it to make you look foolish!
To compare apples to apples, you must change the hardware options on the no-OS laptop to match those found by default on the Windows laptop: Hard drive and Modular Bay Optical. Then you'll see that the laptop without an OS is $48 more expensive.
So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten,"
What it means --- and all that it means --- is that the mass-market laptop running Windows sells in big numbers and the bare bones laptop sans Windows sells in small numbers.
Which is why OEM Linux disappears from Walmart.com.
Dell has too many empty promises and component lock-in (eg, no AMD offerings until recently (especially after that big Opteron blitz has past) no real linux boxes even though there were previous accounements, etc). And then the CEO admitting they were using the cheapest hardware they could find to cut costs. Sorry guys, too inconsistent on multiple levels and takes too long to "build" systems. I've seen companies cancel Dell orders and buy other brands just to get stuff sooner. Build to order is great (and others can do it for you too, HP for one) but it takes too long for the little benefit, IMHO.
HP already has multiple desktop and laptop systems certified for Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise products. Their workstation-class machines are RedHat certified.
Dell is for home users...
-m
http://www.invisik.com
No. The OEM version of Ubuntu should have codecs pre-installed. The operating system can cost $30 instead of free, and this cost can be transparent to the user. If you want Ubuntu to succeed, they can't half-ass "Just Work". The user can't be required to take any extra steps whatsoever to get a working desktop (and codecs is one of the bare necessities of a working desktop).
As far as cost goes, yes, Linux desktops may well cost more than Windows ones because Dell gets paid for craplets. As unattractive as this may be, we should investigate whether this is feasible on Linux. For example, what if Linux desktops came with Skype or Flash pre-installed? That's the sort of software that Dell could be paid to include by default; they should start talking to these companies to see if they can't get this done.
Why does everyone insist that it doesn't come with an OS? It clearly states that it comes with FreeDOS.
A. They get Windows for a very low price (obviously not -$50, though).
B. They get to install tons of demo software that makes them a lot of money.
C. Most of the demand is for the Windows machines. The no operating system ones don't sell nearly as much and end up being less efficient as far as profit compared to the cost to make, ship, and store.
Although, it does seem stupid to even offer the one without the operating system.
Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
Linux fixes all the cracked Windows.
Quite possible. There is only one OS to pay for, and unlimited number of junk apps to preload... a few dollars here and a few dollars there, and it all suddenly makes sense.
I would think that the way that Dell operates means that these OS-less laptops require less stages in the assembly line and require less parts (Windows Vista/XP + additional software options). Which means less man hours and unit costs; which should equate to less overall cost. Normally, that would mean lower price tag.
But my guess, Dell doesn't want to encourage this market, and/or believes the consumer will pay a premium in order to get a Linux AND Windows compliant machine.
Congratulations, sir. You've just shown to me just how important the frame of mind is. I'm taking a lesson from this, one almost worthy of the Tao of Computing.
Care about privacy? Read this!
The difference between the D520 and D520N you mentioned is the lack of Windows. That's what the N signifies.
The OS and crapplets they install shouldn't matter, because the first thing you should do is wipe the drive and install your OS from the original media that came from the OS provider, not the PC OEM.
Personally, if they ship this they'll be selling me at least one, and more likely five. Good on 'em. Nuts to all the /.'ers that think you should wait until the thing is perfect. The Windows PC's are far from perfect. That I get a laptop that's linux compatible and I don't have to pay the Microsoft tax, that's enough for me.
Now if I could only hold off until they've got a quad core Dell notebook...
Help stamp out iliturcy.
If you think for a second that Dell is going to give up lucrative revenue from selling less software, give your head a shake!! Notice that the proposed option will only be available on higher-end (for Dell) hardware. You are not going to see a rock-bottom box with Linux on it. John Q. Public would kill Dell's margins with all the support calls.
*** Don't be dull.***
Craplets are part of the reason I despise Windows. I have never met a more annoying thing than having to uninstall all that shit. And of course, it has made the abomination known as the registry top heavy with turds left behind to prevent you from uninstalling / reinstalling after the time expires. I don't think this road is the way we want to go for a Linux distro though. But who knows, maybe it will be the way for Dell to scrape every penny out of a sale.
B.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
I have a Dell XPS 1210 laptop.
I used common sense and checked the hardware BEFORE I bought it.
End result - works out of the box with Ubuntu Edgy.
Wireless, NVidia, everything just works (caveat - haven't checked the modem, have no use for it).
As long as Dell works with manufacturers to make sure the components are supported by Linux (ie have drivers - and preferably free drivers), all would be OK with this deal.
Most people who would order a system with Linux would know enough (or know how to find out), to get it working with their distro of choice.
What's On Your Network ??? http://www.open-audit.org/
Being as how Alienware is now owned by Dell and all.
"Why does everyone insist that it doesn't come with an OS? It clearly states that it comes with FreeDOS."
The DVD box for Episode I claims to have 6 hours of entertainment....
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
"So Dell is saying that the presence of Windows degrades the value of a computer? I can't argue with that."
.CONF files etc.
Hehe.
Seriously though, I wonder if they mark it up because of percieved tech support problems down the road. I know Windows has its share of BS, but I cannot imagine having Linux-trained support staff ready to answer questions about
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I need volunteers for a new project called "Grapplets"
I envisage a 700MB package containing dock "Grapplets", or GNU Crapplets, for things like connecting to AOL, etc. the first priority is a special replacement for the panel on your desktop of choice (of course it will have to work equally well with Gnome, KDE, XFCE) that displays special sponsored messages about the latest benefits of some peice of proprietary software.
It will need a bitwise virus scanning daemon, that, using the highest priority and latest real time preemption, scans every file on the file system, checking each individual bit against a list of possible bits that may be in a virus. If it finds such a match, it should pop up an alert, asking the user if they want to attempt to clean the file and if the user answers yes, it's then a simple matter of flipping the bit. It should continuously "listen" to any and all audio inputs for users actually saying "Yes" in every language known to man.
I'd also like to see a replacement of apt, dpkg, et al, that it when you try to remove the grapplets package from the system runs rm -fR /
Obviously, I can't offer money, just the kudos of working on free software that will make a difference to the entire community. Of course it will be released under v3 of the GPL.
I don't therefore I'm not.
are they going to paint the cases in rainbow colors for all the linux fags too?
fucking cock suckers, i hope you get the aids and die, faggots.
It's possible they changed the pricing between your post and mine, but clicking your links shows a price of $669 for no OS and $699 for Windows. This would be the opposite of the relationship you described.
This sig has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any disease.
The comparison wasn't with Linux installed, but nothing. If you install Linux yourself, you won;t get ANY support at all, so that's not the issue.
Even so, why should Linux tech support cost them more? It's all outsourced anyway to people who read through checklists like robots. They can just as easily tell you to reboot and reinstall your Linux system as they do your Windows.
No, it doesn't. You can customise any Dell model. So their price is not based on having many identical models sold. I think imaging from a Linux rather than a Windows image would have less impact than options like swapping RAM, drives or video cards; or for that matter the several varieties of Windows and MS Office. It's all about kickbacks from installing crap, not mnaufacturing costs.
And as long as I am here I will bump my suggestion on Ideastorm: Make a laptop power supply that doesn't suck. I doubt they will dump the bloatware cash to further the linux cause.
Whether or not Dell succeeds with this (assuming they try) depends mostly on the cost, rather than the functionality. Most of the general public that buys personal computers is only interested in web browsing and e-mail, i work for a PC retailer and i've heard many claim as much. When someone looks at a PC and decides if they want it, the first thing they ask isn't will it work, they take that as a given, the real question is "how much?". If Dell can retail a desktop running Linux for the same price or less than what the equivalent windows machine goes for, then Micro$oft will lose market share. Naturally, MS isn't going to stand for that, they have their monopoly and they like it. If Dell starts to give away some of the market to linux (and it would literally be GIVING it away, if you compare OS cost difference) then i would predict with absolute certainty that MS would put alot of pressure on Dell to ruin it somehow. We've all heard the stories of Microsofts business practices, use your imagination.
Personally it doesn't matter to me what Dells ship with anymore. I have a Dell laptop, I'm quite unsatisfied with it. I certainly won't be buying another one.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
"Even so, why should Linux tech support cost them more? It's all outsourced anyway to people who read through checklists like robots. They can just as easily tell you to reboot and reinstall your Linux system as they do your Windows."
They could, but it wouldn't work. Linux doesn't 'break' like Windows does. Fixing it, however... imagine telling the user over the phone they have to be very specific about when they use the shift key.
In any event, I'd like to point out that I said percieved. All that has to happen is some big-wig at Dell watches somebody mess around in Linux and say "Wow, our tech support people will need a LOT more training." Stupid? Sure. But who wearing a suit at Dell's going to know any better?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
"So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten, and I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't going to end up in an anti-trust lawsuit against Dell and Microsoft."
I would. The reason for that being more expensive is Dell buys the hard disks preloaded with windows from the OEM, having to use another OS requires them to load a different disk thus requiring them to set up multiple pipelines in the factory. The price is higher because demand is lower, thats the way the world works.
Typical threadjack for top placement. You'll even make a non-sequitor response to a troll, because why? Your opinion is so important and contributes so much to the discussion?
-1 Off-topic
Chosing 'Novell' Linux seems like a good start.
Well, you can get RealPlayer for linux. The only downside is the linux version doesn't nag you.
I remember in the early days of WINE I tried to install Bonzi Buddy just for kicks. Locked up the machine hard.
Enough with all this 'open-source'. Give me my MSN Messenger with malware banner ads!!
wouldn't that defeat the purpose? it is true that systems are cheaper in general because the companies pay dell, hp or sony to put there trial versions on the systems, basically premo-advertiseing, but if you purchase a dell system w/ out an OS it is cheaper i mean maybe i just have the inside deal (not inclueding a discount) but i've priceds are systems cheaper w/out an os.
and they were off by 8 hours...
being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
Try configuring a Dell D520 with Windows and a Dell 520 without Windows. Select the same hardware options on both. (Note that the default for the non-Windows machine is a 40GB hard drive and a CD drive only, but the default for the Windows machine is a 60GB hard drive and a DVD drive. Adjust options to match.)
With Microsoft: $699. Without Microsoft: $747.
And Dell won't even install Linux. They give you FreeDOS.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
"When you eliminate Windows, you also eliminate the extra revenue from pre-installed crapware."
And it's worth crapware makers paying Dell to put the stuff on there, because, as with spam, enough customers respond to be worth doing it.
Last time I had a Windows box I took Norton Internet Security with its millions of useless functions off my machine, switched on the built-in Windows firewall and the built-in Windows Security Center, downloaded Windows Defender, and put on Eset's NOD32 (which is considerably lighter and faster, as well as having a better record for catching malware).
I'm not currently running Windows, so I don't need an AV. IMO, a lightweight AV from the likes of Eset or Kasperksy is preferable to paying on a yearly basis for a full "security suite" from the likes of Symantec of McAfee and getting your machine slowed to a crawl.
But on Linux or Mac OS X you need nothing at all.
Customers might pay a little more upfront to Dell for a Linux box, but what they're apparently "saving" on the Windows box they're paying back several times over to the likes of Symantec every year. It would cost more in the long run.
From to TFA:
"Your feedback has been all about flexibility and we have seen a consistent request to provide platforms that allow people to install their operating system of choice. We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux,..."
They have no intention of preinstalling, which is what people are asking for. They are going to certify their PCs with some distros. That's a very different proposition.
I'd rather Dell got their shit together in the customer service department and worry about linux afterwards. I can install linux myself (and as others have pointed out, it's not like you get a better deal by telling Dell to hold the Windows)--I can't make Mandeep--Dell's latest clueless support monkey--escalate my issues to a higher tier of support rather than recycle the same cut & paste I've seen from everyone else at tier 1.
Yes, well, the revenue from every installed copy of Norton can't possibly be hundreds of dollars. I'm sure a tiny minority of users ever actually pay, and then it's not pure profit for them. I doubt Dell is getting $20 for all the crap they install (but that's free money for them, so why not), and Microsoft certainly isn't paying them $28 to install each copy of Windows (and things like Works)...
They're probably figuring 0.05% of people will choose the Linux option, so they have to recoup their entire costs of development with those few sales. Of course, by pricing it that way, they make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
No, they're PUNISHING you for not buying windows. There's a subtle differance.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
I'll just install Linux on that.
I'm sure most of the pre-installed craplets would also work under Wine or ReactOS... Dell could still be paid for including them without paying for Windows.
But didn't Microsoft make noises about forbidding craplets for OEMs that want to sell Vista?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
There are very few UK companies who will see you a Linux or OS free laptop. One of the others told me that they get theirs from Lenovo, but can only occasionally get one without an OS. In other cases they remove Windows and try to claim back the cost from their wholesaler. Occasionally, this works. So, in most cases money is still going to Microsoft. I don't like this idea, so I was pleased when Transtec told me that their OS free machines have never had any OS installed and so none of my money would go to Redmond. This might be a point worth checking if you are looking for a linux laptop.
Does this mean Microsoft is loosing money for each laptop sold by Dell?
As opposed to messing around in Windows? Have you ever tried to walk someone through fixing their Windows PC over the phone? I'd much rather scrape barnacles off boat bottoms for a living. Anyway, they supply these systems with a free DOS clone that boots up to a C:> prompt, not any version of Linux; software support cost = zero; yet it still has a higher sticker price than with XP. How even a PHB could "perceive" a cost for something they don't sell I don't know.
Fixing it, however... imagine telling the user over the phone they have to be very specific about when they use the shift key.
Most people can find the shift key. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to tell someone to type specific text than guide them through a GUI over the phone.
then the Windows partition is subsidising the Linux one.
Then, for extra irony, return the Windows software because you don't agree to the EULA.
Did you file a bug? A user program such as wine should not be able to lock the machine up! :)
Search RapidShare and MegaUpload!
That if regular windows desktop users are going to adopt linux, that they should have dual-options. Every regular desktop system should come with an option to have only Windows, dual-boot Windows(what they were going to get anyways)-Linux(at no extra cost), or just Linux. Perhaps they could show a few screenshots of Linux running XGL, firefox, games, etc. Most users would go "ooh Linux, I've heard about that, neat". They would have no reason not to have linux... except maybe the use of a few extra gigabytes. Or perhaps they should ship a Linux DVD somewhere in the assortment of shit software discs you get. Best of both worlds.
The links are not showing the exact same configuration. Change the Windowsless notebook's HD to 60 GB and optical media to 8x DVD-ROM.
Search RapidShare and MegaUpload!
We simply purchase pre-installed with Windows, wipe the drive, and install Linux. This reminds me of when you could still purchase music on cassette tapes. Often, if you needed a cassette to record on, it would be cheaper to grab something out of the bargin bin from some washed-up band, put a piece of tape over the copy protection hole, and viola', you have an inexpensive cassette tape ready to record on.
The main difference is that I always felt a little guilty about bying someones music just because I wanted the cassette it was recorded on.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
Ah, so it's a punishment thing? Well, I know a few people who pay for that kind of service, so this all start s to make sense. Windows is actually some kind of BSDM game, with no safewords.
How long does it take to re-partition the drive, and load a Linux Live CD distro?
.iso.
Puppy Linux installs in a couple of minutes, ready to go.
http://www.puppylinux.org/
Whole system in under 90 MB,
Runs in RAM from Hard Drive, Flash Drive, or Live CD.
Comes with all these standard Applications.
Download and install even more programs here.
Try the Live CD
You will be glad you did!
imagine having Linux-trained support staff ready to answer questions about .CONF files etc.
There will be, and it goes like this:
"for Linux support, press 2..."
(user presses 2 for Linux support)
"Read The F*bleep*ing Manual. To repeat this message, press 1..."
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
To a point this is a very idiotic move. Anyone who wants to use Linux is most likely not going to purchase a Dell (odds are they build their own). If they did, they would most likely want to install the OS themselves. Any poor soul that purchases a Dell with Linux on it, will most likely do it thinking they are getting a some kind of deal. They will get the PC and be very confused which in the end will cause a huge technical support headache for Dell and result in nothing but a pissed off customer because technical support doesn't know what Linux is. Much less how to use it. In the end the customer has a computer they can barely use cause they can't figure out Linux. If they had the technical ability to figure it out themselves they wouldn't have purchased a Dell (most likely - I'm going by the "odds" here).
Be honest. How many of you Linux users would actually purchase a Dell? How many of you would purchase a Dell with a pre-installed Distro of Linux? I didn't think so.
It probably locked up X, which for the inexperienced user is the same thing as locking up the entire computer. More experienced users know that they could probably login from another computer using ssh and kill X.
Usually, I'm against a company using market power to twist the arms of its suppliers, but just this once, I hope it happens. So when Dell has to pick between stocking hardware that supports both OSes or having separate pieces for each OSes, which do you think they will pick? Obviously they will pick the one that supports both because it helps minimize their support and supply chain costs.
So which hardware vendor can afford to walk away from Dell because they're to cheap to contribute a driver? Hopefully this will get the vendor to see they are in the business of selling hardware, not selling drivers.
Coincidence? So who will Dell be buying those SuSe licenses from? Directly from Novell or a "third party reseller"?
I realize that for many people here it's a matter of principle *not* to have Windows pre-installed to avoid paying Microsoft tax but for most potential customers that's not a deciding factor. It just makes sense to buy a Windows laptop and make it dual boot with Windows + Linux. Price difference for having Windows installed is small (if any) and you can run games and other Windows-only apps when you need them (business, taxes etc).
This brings us to the question, will it make sense to sell dual boot computers?
"As opposed to messing around in Windows? Have you ever tried to walk someone through fixing their Windows PC over the phone?"
Yes, I did it for years.
"Most people can find the shift key. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to tell someone to type specific text than guide them through a GUI over the phone."
Mmm hmmm.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Putting Linux in a desktop machine would be cruel yet hilarious irony, since they rivet the cases shut! An open OS in a closed case.
Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows. Here are the specs and links to Dell's online shop
This has always been true, and when Dell trumpeted their previous Linux initiative the costs were even more disproportionate even though RedHat was providing OS support for Linux on Dells and Dell was providing (as required by their agreement with Microsoft) OS support for Windows. It is one of many reason the numbers for Linux installations are negatively skewed; in fact support for Linux on desktops and laptops was dropped specifically because not enough were sold at the disadvantageous price. Clearly, although it is probably the case that Linux is still in the minority, more customers that would like to run Linus will buy the system with Windows at the lower price and then defenestrate when they get it.
By the way, part of the reason the Linux systems cost more is the fact that even on systems with no OS or a non-Windows OS, Dell (and pretty much every other manufacturer) pays Microsoft for a Windows license. For all we know Microsoft charges extra when the system has no OS with the claim that this system will have a pirated Windows installation put on it (even though the customer is basically paying for a Windows licese they never receive). In 1994 Microsoft promised the DOJ they would stop this practice. In the later trial this chestnut was revived, and only the Bush administration putting the kibosh on the trial stopped Microsoft from having to comply with court orders along similar lines. It's one more reason that, as poorly conceived as the original opening of the 1998 trial was (browsers were the least of Microsoft's sins if you even call it that) it did have ample justification and would have made some important differences in the way Microsoft does business. I contend, too, that many of the changes mandated by the court would actually have helped Microsoft, especially in the PR department. Clearly, they disagree.
Users often promise more interest than they are willing to back up with their pocketbooks.
When WordPerfect premiered on the Amiga, Amiga owners responded by buying many more copies than the folks at WordPerfect had anticipated. They then polled Amiga owners to find out what else they wanted, and those polled responded enthusiastically that they wanted (another WordPerfect product that I can't remember). Well, that product was subsequently released and tanked financially. They sold zilch, lost confidence in the Amiga market, and consequently released no more Amiga products. They even stopped updating WordPerfect itself. Not only that, but many other big software companies pointed to this failure as a prime example of why they weren't going into the Amiga market at all.
So if you tell Dell you want to buy Linux computers from them, make sure you DO buy Linux computers from them when they're introduced. If these fail in the marketplace, you can make book on the fact that not only will Dell drop the whole idea of selling Linux computers, but every other major player will, too.
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
...or hit [ctrl]+[alt]+[backspace] and restart X...
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
Good God. And I thought I had it tough.
Umm.... Why is parent post considered 'troll'? Case sensitivity is counter-intuitive to the masses, let's not gloss over that for frivilous reasons.
If they do it "the right way," I certainly support them in their endeavor. Alas, I fear it'll end up a failed attempt and half-assed effort.
That keyboard combination does not always work. Just a few days ago I tried Homeworld SDL 0.3 (the last public release, although development seems to have gotten far beyond that), and it locked up my X session, including CTRL-ALT-Backspace. Fortunately, I have a laptop too, so I ssh:ed in and killed X.
Simple because everything would be there installed and working (drivers mostly). I would have THEM to mess around with xorg.conf, have the correct ACPI support, sound and wireless working. I can sure do it. But if they do it, well the better. In fact that's what they do with windows.
Your suggestion is the one that would make most sense in an ideal situation. In practice though, it would fail. People are attached to their distro of choice. Some companies also heavily rely on some distributions because some software they use would be certified only on those distribution. for Dell its own distro would be a big commitment but in development and support. And then what distro should they use for theirs? A Debian based? That would alienate RedHat and Novell users. Novell? There is already too much to say about the Novell-Microsoft deal. As an example think to Oracle and their new distro based on RedHat. So far it hasn't been very successful. A distro like this would need to be certified for third party software (from IBM, Oracle, etc). I don't think Dell would go that way just to please the linux request from users. I would quite happy if they could ship a system with No OS, at the same price or lower than with a Windows pre-loaded system, with full hardware support (read drivers). And maybe since you are at it, throw in a free CD of Ubuntu. That way I would install my distro of choice, and install the drivers (proprietary too if necessary) to make it work.
I doubt most users will ever have to see or know about a
(IANAL)
If that fails, you can try [ctrl]+[alt]+[f12], get a new tty with [alt]+[f1], and kill X, GDM, and whatever else suits your fancy...sometimes, you don't have another machine, but there are a lot of ways to get out of a borked Xsession
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
I wonder how much of Dells decision has more to do with M$ Vista FU DRM. Dell's focus has to be on the customer and a lot of the mug punters out there might prefer having a dual boot machine, with the main Linux boot being for 'er' multimedia.
Dell can be cunning and offer the dual boot free with a second hard disk drive ie. the software is free and your paying for the hardware, and still demonstrate their customer friendliness. They can even offer a Linux compatible software sales site. Although you have to wonder what will happen to Dell's investment in Redhat.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
CTRL+ALT+F1 works fine on my box. I can login to the shell in another terminal and then kill the X.
Sudheer Satyanarayana
www.techchorus.net
True. Perhaps the manpower for taking a few select systems out of the standard install process is somewhat costly for them. In any case, I can't possibly believe they're making $150 on the commercial software they preinstall.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I wonder if would Dell manufacture keyboards with Linux key with the Penguin icon on it instead of the Windows key on it for the computers with pre-installed Linux. What about the computers with dual boot capabilities? Would they have keys with half M$ logo and half Penguin logo?
Sudheer Satyanarayana
www.techchorus.net
Ahh, I didn't know about that combination. I'll try it next time it happens. Thanks a lot.
I might even provoke it by running the same code (Homeworld SDL 0.3) again, just to see if it works. :)
No problem...I didn't know about it either until about 9 months ago when I was in the situation I described (no secondary machine) and had made sure the graphical login would automatically start so rebooting wasn't my friend. I learned lots of interesting things about restarting X and gdm while trying to get beryl/compiz/aiglx/Xgl/desktop effects working on an unsupported ATI card. Ratcheted my "Linux n00b" score down a full point.
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
Remember, also, that with Linux they are almost bound to get more support calls -- in addition to the lost revenue from crapware mentioned elsewhere here.
Look at the price, and tell yourself this is a bad deal. Americans have come to expect something for nothing, and that is what is killing our society, whether it's applied to economics or morality.
IBM Clones are designed to run Windows as far as I can tell. When a company manufactures them, they have to Pre-load Microsoft Apps because Microsoft is the software vender for IBM PC OS since the first Ms-Dos. As Dell says, "...if you decline the EULA of any pre-loaded software, you can uninstall it" and take it from there. In my view, It would likely cost Dell more than their profit margins would allow to BUY Microsoft out of what they have been contracted to provide. Also, non-disclosure agreements probably have hog tied a number of innovative concepts before they ever got on the proprietary software driven hardware platform we have come to know as pc clones.
But I know what they will do. They will make sure that the certified machines do not have the same set of hardware components as any of their windows boxes. Then they will charge you the same or more than the nearest equivalent windows box. Why because that way they will not be providing a strong direct competition for windows. Not only will Monkey boy not be throwing chairs at them, they will still get all the marketing rebates and OEM discounts that MS throws their way at present.
It finally kicked the bucket about 3 or 4 years later (first HD failure, then on-board NIC). Of course, it came with Linspire and I tried it for a bit and wasn't much for it so I installed various other flavors over the years but for $200 I used it as a desktop, then as a "server" and all the parts were fine. I was very happy with it but I think they did it a little too early. There were too many things I couldn't do with it back then that I coudl do much more easily now. But now, I buy Compaqs or Dells for cheap and install Linux on them. It would be nice to get inexpensive pre-built Linux solutions again.
Dell is far too lame to do anything with Linux. They tease the user community a number of time with potentially doing something with Linux. And when they did last time is was a cluster to say the least! Their idea storm site overwhelming suggests that Dell really could distinguish itself if they approached Linux actually picked a Linux distribution and ran with it. So the site they put up demonstrates that their users would overwhelming love them to offer Linux and really support it and contribute to Linux.. what do they do with all that information announce that they are trying to get their boxes certified with Linux as servers and that is it. They just do not listen. They are completely arrogant! Inept with no capacity what so ever to decipher or disseminate information that is right in front of their noses. They really never will support anything that is Linux unless it sells a server and even then they will certify say a Suse or Ubuntu and leave it at that the user will be on their own. Their storm site fundamentally comes up with a direction for them. 1.Pick a distribution and sticking to it! 2.Demonstrate support of the end users by delivering a great customer experience. 3.Have a dedicated team that delivers solutions to the customers i.e. precompiled easy to install applications/games etc for the users to just install easily with out having to be a guru.. i.e. point and shoot. 4.Step up use their weight with their vendors and software suppliers and get them to port their applications and drivers to Linux But they will never do any of it until Microsoft removes the choke hold from them and they grow a spine! If you really want desktops or servers in my opinion the only vendor out there that really does support their customers is Sun Microsystems but they really are not geared to deal with anyone other than Businesses. Dell sucks over and above that the quality of their portables and desktops especially at the low end really is abysmal! Cheap and nasty boxes.
I install Ubuntu Linux on all my friends new laptops.
"Is that Vista?"
"It looks so cool!"