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... More new laptops = more Windows 10.

Stop the trend

-shrug- I'd buy the galago pro myself anyway, which doesn't have a numeric keypad -- and i like the smaller form factor.

https://system76.com/laptops/g...

You don't have to be limited to 3 choices.

What are the other choices? Do they involve a severely restricted set of screen sizes and having to buy a laptop without first having first seen its keyboard and screen? System76 currently doesn't offer anything smaller than 13 inches, and there aren't any System76 dealers in my home town.

You're basically giving credit to Microsoft for having most manufacturers support Windows. It's arbitrary. True you can't install linux on hardware or use it with hardware that wasn't made for it and expect things to go perfectly smooth. Most PCs come with Windows because that's what the manufacturer tested it with and they submit drivers to Microsoft's database. There are actually companies that sell hardware for linux pre-loaded with linux. Those will work out of the box and updates will generally not break them (not that Windows is impervious to update breakage). If you want to attach a printer or sound card then you have to make sure the manufacturer didn't intend it to be used exclusively with Windows (same thing for mac users).

Yes. Buy from System76 or Dell will allow you to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed. My employer does this to save money.

I don't see how it saves money. System76 laptops tend to be almost as expensive as Apple, and there's no 11.6" option (hence "limited set of form factors"). Nor can I try the keyboard or screen before buying (hence "sight unseen").

PCs sold with Linux pre-installed, or blank, tend to be more expensive, partly because they don't come riddled with crapware and malware that the maker has been paid to load, but more importantly because they tend to be better quality as the makers know that the buyers are more knowledgable and discerning. A company I have bought from allows you to specify the build to order, to quite a low level.

buying a GNU/Linux laptop sight unseen in the limited set of form factors offered by System76 and other GNU/Linux specialists

Yes. Buy from System76 or Dell will allow you to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed. My employer does this to save money.

I don't see how it saves money. System76 laptops tend to be almost as expensive as Apple, and there's no 11.6" option (hence "limited set of form factors"). Nor can I try the keyboard or screen before buying (hence "sight unseen").

No optical bay, no mobile phone radio, no smart card reader, no 7-row keyboard, no middle mouse button, volume controls crammed into a shift on the function keys. The article doesn't show the keyboard or monitor, which are extremely important when selecting a laptop. I found shots of it elsewhere at https://system76.com/guides/or.... There's just not a lot there that isn't different from any other laptop.

Price is $1599. Not out of line if the quality is there. A bit of a surprise to see the VGA connector, but there are still a lot of VGA projectors out there for the road warriors among us. I guess, this looks like worth the money compared to the usual flimsy ultrabooks that sell for a similar price. And Apple... got an expensive one here with a display that developed white blotches all over it. Apparently common, and Apple tries to blame users. Rejected, permanently.

Thank you to the Linux hardware vendor who took the leadership role in opting out of this Intel spyware madness. For any of you thinking about finally escaping the Windows chamber of horrors, this company deserves your business.

So I'm curious - who makes nice Linux/BSD-friendly laptops which are at least marginally like my 2015 MacBook Pro?

I'm using a Dell XPS 15 9550 running Sierra.

Decent keyboard, great battery life, amazing (touch) screen, and it dual boots OS X and Windows. It's technically a 15" laptop, but because the screen has such small bezels it's more like a 14" form factor.

You might also look into System76 laptops, which are specifically designed for Linux.

Dell offers pre-installed Linux. Strangely I just checked and the XPS13 which was the laptop they used to offer it on doesn't seem to be available in the states. You can find some info from blogs about project sputnik. There's also System76 if you are based in the US. With Dell the experience overall has been clear for me. They came and fixed hardare problems (with wrong firmware) which would never have been fixed if I had bought a laptop with Windows. Definitely recommend strongly getting a laptop with Linux pre-installed if you are doing serious work on a Linux based laptop.

There's a whole lot of subjective "me" in that comment but very little objective "fact". Look if Linux doesn't work for you, okay. You found something else to use? Great! I think we've all moved past the idea that there will ever be a year of the Linux Desktop.

Well, given that early 1990's now-defunct operating systems showed more integration and functionality, I'd say 20-something years of failure ought to tell you something is wrong.

They seem to me like 20-something bearded hipsters trying to Python-script their way to Linux desktop glory.

Really?! These people look like 20-something hipsters? Have you ever worked in a programming job? Because these folks look exactly like the last three groups of folks I've worked with which is typically a pretty diverse mix of folks.

Yes. Really. Did you even *look* at the link you posted. Just like I said, pudgy bearded hipsters abound. The receptionist is nearly the only exception. Like I said I work close by. What's up, did that hit too close to home? You work there or something?

I give up. I declare the Linux desktop fragmentation thoroughly fatal.

Well I'm sure we're all glad that you've finally declared that. We have all been waiting with bated breath for you to go one way or the other. We can all now rest easy knowing for sure which way you lean on the matter.

You're welcome. Now that Python IDE is calling, you'd better get those DBUS scripts finished and make sure they integrate with Systemd, brah.

There's a whole lot of subjective "me" in that comment but very little objective "fact". Look if Linux doesn't work for you, okay. You found something else to use? Great! I think we've all moved past the idea that there will ever be a year of the Linux Desktop.

They seem to me like 20-something bearded hipsters trying to Python-script their way to Linux desktop glory.

Really?! These people look like 20-something hipsters? Have you ever worked in a programming job? Because these folks look exactly like the last three groups of folks I've worked with which is typically a pretty diverse mix of folks.

I give up. I declare the Linux desktop fragmentation thoroughly fatal.

Well I'm sure we're all glad that you've finally declared that. We have all been waiting with bated breath for you to go one way or the other. We can all now rest easy knowing for sure which way you lean on the matter.

The next systems I buy for the business will be just like the systems I buy for me personally; the desktop will be something I assemble myself, and the notebook will be something well-built but relatively inexpensive that I will promptly see a Linux distro installed over what will likely be a Windows 10 pre-install.

Let me introduce you to notebooks built for Linux: https://system76.com/

good luck finding parts from which to build a compact laptop.

In addition many manufacturers will build you a workstation to your requirements, you just have to make it worth their while to do it.

Looks at list of laptops sold by System76
How would an individual go about "mak[ing] it worth their while" for System76, ZaReason, ThinkPenguin, and other Linux laptop makers to make a laptop smaller than 13 inches?

Looks at pricing of base configuration of said System76 laptops
What goes into a Linux laptop to make it cost as much as two or three entry-level Windows laptops?

Can someone recommend a Linux distro where basic stuff like the mouse wheel works properly? Now that OPAL v2 is getting proper support I really want to switch.

I'm not a noob, I use Linux servers and embedded systems all the time, but the two desktops I tried recently (Mint Cinnamon and Ubuntu) were broken and/or generally sucked. I don't want to waste time trying them all if I can help it.

Unfortunately the meme that you can just install Linux on any PC is very common; whilst it's true that experts almost always can, and hobbyists will eventually succeed beginners who need something for real work should not listen. Your is not a distro problem. Your problem is a hardware problem. You need to buy a Linux computer, not buy Windows computer and then try to convert it (think of the difficulty you would have running OSX on a standard PC - Linux is not that bad, but you would laugh if someone complained to Apple that they don't support PC hardware).

There are a number of companies making Linux computers, for example:

• https://system76.com/ - System76 - one of the most dedicated producers
• Dell - the call them "Developers Edition"

Buy a computer from one of them. You will then have someone responsible for making sure your hardware has appropriate and working device drivers.

Every time I tried to install Linux on a laptop I have had hardware issues.

System76 makes fine Linux laptops.
And if you read /. at all then you've no doubt noticed that Dell sells Linux laptops too.
This won't solve your problems with laptops you currently have issues with, but in the future perhaps you should consider buying a laptop from one of these vendors.
Need some incentive? Apparently Dell's Linux laptops are $100 cheaper than their Windows laptops because they're not making your pay the Microsoft tax.

I'd rather see some cheaper models. I'm still shopping around for a good basic laptop for my wife. It doesn't need to be ultra thin (it won't travel much) or super stylish, just something basic to run Ubuntu with a browser and LibreOffice.

Here, try System76's Lemur

System 76 is a business dedicated to selling computers with Lignux preinstalled.

In the past, System76 laptops were just rebranded Clevos, which are sold in the U.S. by Sager. This is true of most boutique laptop providers. Theoretically, System76 does extra work to insure Linux works seamlessly on these laptops, but I've had zero issues getting Linux to work on the Clevo that I purchased. Certainly, these laptops aren't perfect, but I do believe the Clevo has some of the best value for the dollar in their laptop line. My biggest complaints are that their mechanical components are only OK.

To give an example, a two minute check for their Gazelle:

https://system76.com/laptops/g...

Tells me that it's probably a rebrand from the Clevo W650 line:

http://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_...

Clevo tends to refresh their lines pretty often, so it's sometimes hard to get the exact model, but not impossible. Searching by laptop dimensions is the fastest way to get into the ballpark.

What company that isn't a Linux Mint partner makes laptops that work well with Linux Mint?

System76

System76's laptop page doesn't offer anything smaller than the 14 inch Lemur.

No, the Virus is call system32, I'm sure you can find instructions on removing it online.

Or toss it and upgrade to system76 - https://system76.com/

If you don't want wibdows 10 don't use it. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Unless no laptop makers are willing to sell me a laptop in a particular form factor with anything other than Windows preinstalled. System76, for instance, lacks anything smaller than 14 inches (source).

I was considering replacing my MacBook Pro 2013 with a new MBP. Unfortunately to get a machine of roughly the same specs as I had (formerly top-of-the line for 2013, 1 TB SSD, discrete SSD, etc) it now costs 33% more. To get the top of the range 2016 MBP it now costs 66% more. I wouldn't mind paying for this but I do a lot of OpenGL coding and the GPU on the MBPs is quite weak. So I've been looking for alternatives.

In addition to the Dell XPS i considered the Microsoft Surface Books, but their GPU is so-so.

Three manufacturers of great 15" laptops with decent GPUs are:
1) Origin PC, http://www.originpc.com/ - which has a thin laptop with moderate GPU power, and a heavier laptop with more power.
2) System76 has just released a laptop with a 4k display and a GTX 1070 GPU https://system76.com/laptops/o... - my friend has one with a 1080p display and it looks very good,
3) Razer also has an option of a small and light laptop with external GPU. The laptop is a bit small for me, but the external GPU is intriguing. http://www.razerzone.com/store...

I haven't made up my mind which to get. But I hope this may be of some interest to anyone else who'd like a bit more GPU power than the Apple MBP can give, without having to haul a brick.

It depends on the laptops and how well the manufacturer supports Linux....

I second this so much.

Nobody would buy a Lenovo PC and then complain that OSX doesn't work on it. If you know that Lenovo doesn't give full Linux support why would you buy one of their laptops in the first place? Even if you are forced to use Windows today, eventually you know that either increasing system requirements will make the machine obsolete or the next Microsoft spyware add on will be one step too far.

There are plenty of manufacturers doing decent hardware guarantees, ranging from Purism who will ensure all drivers are free through System76 a wide range of solid, reasonably cheap laptops and a good hardware support reputation through to Dell who will do modern hardware with full onsite corporate support (I've had pretty good experiences here, as long as you make that the local technician uses the Linux certified firmware/hardware combinations) and supply from other countries than the USA.

A few years ago it might have been reasonable to complain that your hardware didn't support Linux properly. Not now.

I posted pretty much the exact same comment, including current laptop model, earlier this week. I'm leaning System 76 at this point. At bare minimum, while the hardware isn't quite as nice as Apple's, I can configure a real MBP replacement for half the cost of the current generation of MBPs with 2x the hardware capacity. And ports galore. And a real battery. And a matte screen.

I've been waiting on a MBP that's worth replacing my mid-2012 with fully upgraded HD and memory. (my own - not apple's $1k upgrade) Every MBP since then has been flat or downhill in terms of hardware. I think I'm going to go System 76 when I finally can't stand my old MBP anymore and need the hardware upgrades.

They aren't selling to Linux users, if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere.

System76 sells Linux laptops
And so does Dell

Just sayin'

Purism
System76
Tuxedo Computers

Luckyly we have those now.

System76

They exist. Buy from them

The featured article doesn't appear to state how big the plaintiff's Sony laptop was, but I do know System76 doesn't make anything smaller than 14 inches (source).

Boo fucking hoo

System76

They exist. Buy from them

The featured article doesn't appear to state how big the plaintiff's Sony laptop was, but I do know System76 doesn't make anything smaller than 14 inches (source).

You are one of those "and this time I mean it" people.

You won't dump Windows. Microsoft has probably crossed over your "line in the sand" 10 times in the last year.

They understand they have a captive audience. You might be ruffled about what they force down your throat, but they know you just complain and take it up the arse again the next time too.

You say that, and you may be right, however there's a difference now. There always used to be worse hardware or incompatibility for Linux. Now even System 76 hardware looks pretty nice and other mainstream manufacturers like Dell and HP are offering Linux on laptops. Lots of reasons why people used to start migrating and then gave up are going away. Maybe he'll finally succeed in freeing himself from continual monitoring and control this time.

Microsoft has ignored the Skype for Linux, not just 'months', but more like years. When you look at the dates, you see 2013 and 2014 (when it finished), but the real takeover of Nokia started when they hired in the ex Microsoft Exec, Stephen Elop in 2010 (Stephen Elop hired as CEO of Nokia). It was shortly after that, Nokia stopped supporting the first phone that was also a Linux computer, the N800, N880 and N900 models N900 pulled off shop shelves in Nokia Stores.

Your basic embrace, extend extinguish strategy that Microsoft has used over the years. They just suck the technology and software out of the company when they buy it and within 4-5 years that company and often those products are no more.

Nokia's N800, N880 and N900 models also had two micro USB slots, one internal under the battery that could be used as slower RAM or additional storage, with the external micro USB used to swap in and out of whatever (environments, software, whatever)...still waiting to see an Android phone with two micro USB slots. At least the Android BLU has two SIM slots (two phone numbers ringing on the same phone), but I digress.

Microsoft started ignoring Linux years before Skype was even a glint in the eye of the developers who created it. All the while using more and more of various Linux distros and the Kernel to improve Windows. Pathetic.

How many years Microsoft has been ignoring Linux is debatable, I will say since its inception, but based on the two URLs above, at least since 2010. That's 6 years and counting folks.

Now they want us back...only because they are trying to hold off mass migrations from Windows 7 to Linux because of their new pricing strategy for Windows 10. As of July 12, 2016, two days ago, Enterprise users will be extorted into paying so much each month or $84 per year to use Windows 10.

They want you to think they are interested in helping Linux...you are not that naive are you?

Insanity, doing the same thing, Extend, Embrace, Extinguish, and expecting a different result from Microsoft. I stopped drinking the Micro$oft Kool-Aid years ago, what is your excuse.

I say they have been ignoring Linux since they started, April 4, 1975, per Google (talk about the Ultimate April Fools joke on computer users) or roughly 41 years. But even if you say only 6 years...it is still too little too late!

Monthly pricing for Enterprise users stupid enough to pay it, will ultimately filter down to the Home Users version of Windows. It is not a matter of IF, only WHEN.

To buy computer hardware free of Microsoft negotiated chips that require a Microsoft license, even to run Linux, only purchase your computer hardware from ZaReason, System 76 or a computer manufacturer that specializes in Linux on the computer....does not matter which distro, financially you are better off with Linux + LibreOffice + anything else and just say NO TO WINDOZE 10!

ZaReason will put any Linux distro you want on their computers, while System76 tends to focus more on Ubuntu, fyi.

New users to Linux you have many choices, however the two dominant distros are based on either Redhat/CentOS or Debian...there are many others. A safe place for a newbie to Linux to start would be Linux Mint. If you have a touch screen Unbuntu, but if you do not have a touch screen, just use Debian. For Home Servers use CentOS, Debian or Ubuntu. Use what I have written here as a guide, or place to start, in doing your own homework and decide for yourself.

Google "graphic images Linux Distributions" and you will find family trees showing you all the different versions of Linux and from what original distro they forked out of. At the bottom of this page is one of my favorite family trees:

Please, tell me that I can buy it with GNU/Linux pre-installed! Please :)

Wish granted.

System76

Same exact situation here. My 2012 MBP is still running fine, but I want something with a bit more processing power. Looking at the current lineup of MBPs, I just can't fathom spending so much money on such a limited machine. All the MBP models have tiny little hard drives and tiny little batteries and will get lost in a bookbag they're so thin. I just need a decent laptop with decent battery life that has a 1TB hd and some computing power. I guess I could buy the low-end MBP and upgrade it myself for far less than a high-end one, but it seems ridiculous to me to have to do that.
 
Thinking about a higher end System 76 laptop instead of a new MBP, because I can get the same or better guts as a new MBP for ~$1000 less. As much as I love my MBP, OSX is turning into such shit that it doesn't even come close to making up for that price difference. I did various forms of Linux for a decade, ran OSX for 7-8 years, and now I'm quickly being driven back to Linux.

And this "upgrade" really isn't looking like anything I'd be interested in. OLED touch bar and dropping the magsafe connector for a USB Type C? That's fucking stupid. Check out the ports in a System 76 laptop! The Kudu has: 3× USB 3.0, 1× USB 2.0, SD Card Reader, DVD-RW Drive, Gigabit Ethernet, HDMI, VGA, Headphone Jack, and Mic Jack. Or......you could get a 1-2 USB Type C ports on a new MBP for $1000 more. Now that I think about it, I think I'll see of I can configure one of those to drop the DVD drive and cut the weight a little (6lbs is a little much) and just pull the trigger.

https://system76.com/

Or, for $500 less, you could get a 17" System76 Kudu with 16GB RAM.

I'd have thought that all the FOSSies are already in Linux

That's fine so long as you can find a PC that is compatible with GNU/Linux and meets your other requirements. This should be easy for desktops, but for laptops, I can think of four routes, all with problems:

The fact that System76's current laptop offerings are $700, $1400, and $1950.

I'm guessing my next laptop will be from somewhere like System 76, as PCs rapidly become Windows-only.

If only System76 had something smaller than the 14 inch Lemur...

I can second this. My Dell XPS 13 "Developer Edition" that came preinstalled with Ubuntu is the best Linux laptop I have ever owned. I hate the crap Broadcom WiFi card in it, but it does work fine out of the box with Ubuntu and Linux Mint. I did have to replace the preinstalled Dell version of Ubuntu as it was horribly corrupted somehow (if you ran anything other than trivial programs, they would crash). I also own a System76 Linux laptop, but I think the Dell "Developer Edition" XPS 13 model and the M3800 model are better built machines. Check http://www.dell.com/ubuntu or http://www.system76.com/ as both options do ship with Ubuntu preinstalled.

System76 has been selling Linux laptops for years now. I've never bought one, but they certainly have expertise in getting it to work.

The story for this for me has been simple. If I buy hardware that's designed for Linux (e.g. Dell XPS-13) then everything works fine in Linux. If I buy hardware that's designed for Windows then I find one or more devices which have difficulties. I have heard that System 76 isn't bad.

Basically demand hardware that doesn't have the Windows sticker. If you need it for work, buy it with a guarantee that Linux will work. If you want to play around with configuration then build your own system choosing components that work the way you want them to.

It isn't anywhere close to impossible.

System 76 has laptops.

Dell has Linux laptops.

HP has linux laptops.

And that's just the first three places I looked. On Dell and HP, I just went to their website and typed "linux laptop." Prices start under $300. How is that impossible?

But in the real world, this is a silly question right from the start. Who ever uses the OS that came pre-installed on their laptop? The first step is always to wipe the OS and get rid of all the pre-installed malware. Then you install the OS of your choice clean and fresh. That's true for Linux, Windows, or whatever.

So if you prefer Asus or Toshiba or Lenovo or whoever, by all means, buy one and wipe it and install the OS of your choice.

They do exist but yes, they are few.

Mostly thanks I suspect to Microsoft's aggressive licensing programme.

So why not avoid all the BS and buy a portable from a manufacturer which actually specializes in building Linux machines?

So who makes an affordable laptop PC that runs multi-window Linux? Stock Android isn't multi-window, as Android's CDD relies on a window management policy of all maximized all the time. And last time I checked, companies you mentioned charge an Apple premium and lack a variety of sizes. System76 doesn't have anything smaller than 14 inches, and even ZaReason doesn't have a 10 or 11 inch model. This makes Linux look big and clunky.

Add these to your list: System 76, Intel NUC, Dell (at least, the systems that you can order Linux preloaded on them), and mobo manufactures that sell to consumer system builders.

Dell customer support is a joke, avoid them. If you must have a laptop, go with: https://system76.com/ Their laptops designed specifically for Ubuntu. Great customer service, no need to wipe windows and reload yourself as it comes with Ubuntu installed. A workstation would be better for number crunching but it's not a portable solution.

If you're in a hurry, System76: https://system76.com/ Otherwise, I'd go for a Purism laptop: https://www.crowdsupply.com/pu... now on pre-order, shipping begins April 2015.