Ask LinuxPPC Co-Founder Jason Haas

Jason Haas is co-founder, marketing director, and Web manager for LinuxPPC and an all-around good Linux guy. He's also majorly anti-drunk driving these days, because last March a drunk driver ran into his car and left it looking like this. Jason was left in only slightly better shape himself, but unlike his Honda, he eventually recovered (with major help and support from his wife, Cassie) and went back to work. Ask Jason what you will; about out-of-control SUVs (I don't think he likes them), Linux on PowerPCs (something he likes a lot) or anything else. Post your questions below. Tomorrow we'll forward 10 of the highest-moderated ones to him, and we'll expect his answers back in a week or so.

Comments

descisions?

[garcia]

what made you decide to want to do LinuxPPC development and do you think that the Macintosh hardware platform is going to remain a major player in years to come?

Re:descisions?

[fridgepimp]

The PPC Linux distributions (LinuxPPC, YellowDog, et al) ALSO run on RS6000 boxes and would be the distro to run on power4s and other PowerPC architectures, not just Apple Macintosh boxen, though they happen to be the largest consumer-level use of this particular port.

-fp

Re:Wimpy cars?

[SamBeckett]

Have you learned your lesson, and bought a car that isn't quite such a tiny tin can?

Why would you even consider blaming that man? You think it is his fault when:

1. He was just sitting at a red light?
2. A drunk driver hit him?

The only thing that could have protected him from that wreck was a tank (and I mean a military tank, not an 81 buick). I suggest you apoligize for your comment.

Other Software

[Spit_Fire1]

Will LinuxPPC be able to use all linux based software or just ones specfically for ppc. Will they release source apps or bins? Do you think that linuxppc will bring new users to mac hardware, take maco/s customers away from them or take linux customers and allow them to use macs?

Re:Other Software

[garcia]

LinuxPPC has been around for a long time. There are already many apps ready to go. It is like any other architecture, yaeh you have to recompile them for that arch but the Linux programs will normally work.

It isn't going to take away anymore MacOS people as we take away Windows users...

great site for SUV haters...

[Kris Warkentin]

So Jason, what DO you think about SUVs? I saw this site a couple years ago - it cracks me up and I bet you would get a kick out of it too...
http://poseur.4x4.org/

Drunk Driving Penalties

[verbatim]

Since you were in what appears to be a very serious accident with a very serious idoit, do you feel that the drunk driving laws are good/bad and what do you think could/should be done to prevent accidents like the one you were involved with (if anything)? Also, what do you feel are the effects of alchohol on the average geek mind?

Blah.

Re:Drunk Driving Penalties

[peccary]

Jason,
Don't you think it's a little bit, um, cheap, for folks to suddenly get all worked up over some gored ox or other AFTER it suddenly becomes THEIR ox?
Or in other words, why should I take your concern about drunk driving so seriously, just because you got creamed? Surely, if drunk driving is a serious concern, it's not made more serious just because it happened to you?
ISTM that people who suddenly develop compunctions about some personal cause celebre are morally inferior to those whose compunctions are formed independently of their own personal tragedies. That is why I do not consider it to Chris Reeve's credit that he is concerned about quadriplegia (well, duh) or to Milken's credit that is agitated over prostate cancer, but I do consider it to Diana Spencer's credit that she is identified with a campaign against landmines, rather than a campaign against drunk driving.

Re:Drunk Driving Penalties

[cannon_trodder]

As Jason is known to many in the Linux community, we really can't call it cheap that he uses the current attention he is experiencing to highlight drink driving.

Ultimately he is sacrificing his privacy by sharing his (and his wifes) personal experiences of the whole incident.

Christopher Reeve surely doesn't relish people seeing him as he is now rather than the "indestructible super hero" he used to be able to easily play? But he doesn't shy away from the attention his tragedy has created, instead choosing to use it to help promote awareness of his and others challenges.

Does Diana's death in a drunk-driver related incident lend more credit to her (still ongoing) land-mine crusade than it would if her death had actually been at the hands on a land-mine?

Our friends at Apple...

[Soko]

With the imminent launch of OS/X, one would think that Apple has been a rather prickly bedfellow as of late.

Have they been open, honest and co-operative, or do they seem to view you and your group as something of a compeditor?

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[drjohn]

One specific example. The quicktime technology is now used on Windows as well as Mac Systems. But I can not view these same quicktime files on my LinuxPPC base G4, and have to reboot into MacOS.

I have followed Linux on Mac hardware since the early MkLinux. Is there any hope of Apple giving back to the Linux community

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[Schnedt Microne]

MkLinux itself was an effort by Apple to cripple the porting of regular Linux to the Mac hardware.

Apple knew that Linux hackers crawl all around in the hardware, reverse engineering features and digging out all the secrets. They figured that by putting out their own 'special' version of Linux, they could kill the impetus for anybody to incorporate the Mac architecture into the mainstream Linux kernel. So they threw out MkLinux, rubbing out the motivation to do a clean port of Linux to the Mac, and kept ownership of their hardware designs private.

Because of that, people who want to run a good freenix on their older Mac hardware use NetBSD instead. (I have a IIci, a Quadra 800, and two SE/30s with NetBSD on them)

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[shub]

But will NetBSD install on an older PCI PowerMacintosh, such as the 7200/90?

I've got an old machine laying around pretty much unused (but stuffed with RAM), and I'd like to be able to use it for some good purpose. I haven't done anything with it up until now, because I was under the impression that NetBSD wouldn't install on it, and none of the various Linux distributions really interested me (although LinuxPPC came closest).
--
Brad Knowles

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[Schnedt Microne]

Looking at this Excellent Summary Page over at NetBSD's home, it looks like you're still out of luck.

Nearly anything will run NetBSD, though.

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[dhuff]

That's one reason LinuxPPC is so cool - it will run on a 7200 :) IMHO it's a bit of a shame about NetBSD tho', as I lean more towards BSD as a rule. But hey, at least that old 7200/90 I have now can begin life anew as a useful server thanks to Jason and all the other folks in the LinuxPPC project!

Re:Our friends at Apple...

[Sloppy]

But I can not view these same quicktime files on my LinuxPPC base G4, and have to reboot into MacOS.
[snip]
Is there any hope of Apple giving back to the Linux community

In a word: No. They can't ever open Quicktime, because the Sorensen Codec isn't theirs to give out.

If you don't like the Quicktime situation, you should either fight software patents, or boycott the Codec (i.e. stop booting into MacOS to view Quicktime movies, and instead, do without it).

In other respects, there seems little incentive to Apple to ever "give back to the community" because they view their Mac+MacOS bundle as a single product, especially since Jobs came back. From Apple's point of view, there is no reason to aid OSes other than MacOS, because they don't see Mac sales to users-who-don't-want-MacOS as a significantly market. And judging from the lack of appearance of non-Mac PPC personal computers (e.g. POP) they might be right. Apparently, the market has spoken (although IMHO, POP hasn't really been given a fair chance yet).

If someone other than Apple starts selling non-Mac PPC boxes and makes some decent sales, this would indicate a larger market for PPC-based personal computers, and maybe Apple would change their mind, and then have more incentive to accomodate non-MacOS OSes on Macs, thereby leading to them to "give back to the community."

---

Drunk Drivers

[methodic]

I am a 19 year-old straightedge person (being straightedge means no drinking, no smoking and no drugs). I honestly believe I am this way because I've watched all these substances destroy my family and some of my friends.

I just wanted to know if your views of alcohol, in general, has changed after your accident or if you have joined any anti-drunk driving organisations (i.e. MADD)?

Re:Drunk Drivers

[methodic]

If everyone is anti-drunk driving, then why do tragidies like this exist?

been a long way since Madison...

[lupa]

from a computer/Mac standpoint, how do you feel about your multi-faceted progress since your days in Madison?

(BAANAANAA)

LinuxPPC CD booting breakthrough

[Muad'Dave]

What was the breakthrough that allows your latest release to boot directly from the CD-ROM on a Macintosh? Is this something that you are willing to share with other Mac distributions, i.e. M68k-linux?

Commodity Hardware?

[superid]

I'm definitely spoiled rotten by the state of commodity PC hardware. I take it very much for granted that I have a vast choice of motherboards and processors to choose from.

I'm also PPC-clueless. Can you talk briefly about the current state of PPC hardware? (availability, capability, price, future roadmap)

SuperID

Re:Wimpy cars?

[funkman]

OK Troll boy. So your saying that anyone who cannot afford a "tank" (or chooses to drive an economical or environmentally friendly car) deserves their fate when in an accident with an SUV?

SUVs and false sense of safety..

[ebbv]

i have railed against SUVs and the falsely-held belief by many that they are somehow safer than other cars on slashdot and many other places. just about any time the topic comes up. but there seems to be little that can be done to combat the fad other than just trying to steer friends and relatives away from purchasing trucks and SUVs unnecessarily (trucks have genuine uses, but i fail to see any needs that a 3-ton SUV fills that a smaller and safer minivan or better yet, wagon, cannot.)

this is a social problem, it's a dangerous, stupid and wasteful fad. while i'm usually very pro-darwinism, owning an Audi TT myself, it's always a little disconcerting when an Excursion comes speeding up behind me when i'm stopped at a light.

the misconception that he is 'safer' in that excursion comes from the fact that he's safer than i am in that collision, but if he's not any more safe than he'd be if he was in say, an Accord, Camry or Taurus.

in fact, he's less safe, he's unable to stop in a reasonable distance, swerve around obstacles to avoid collisions, etc. add to that the fact that when two three ton vehicles collide the resulting impact is far more violent than say, a collision of two Festivas or even Mustangs.

what's your view, thoughts and suggestions on this issue?
...dave

Math intensive server stuff

[drenehtsral]

I'm working on (or more accurately about to start) a very math intensive client server system, where the server has to do a metric ass-load of calculations mostly on 64-bit signed integers on behalf of client machines. The data are all going to be in ram, and multi-cpu support is a good thing.
Would you recommend a PPC machine over a x86 machine for a task like this? I guess this is mainly a chipset/etc... question, but i have been unable to find that sort of information elsewhere, and i figure who better to ask, 'cause you probably have a decent gut-feeling for how the architecture works in practice on real-world data =:-)

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[Mithrandir]

When we looked at this (very large scale file compression and image munging system), the answer was Alpha. Best bang per buck and also the systems that surrounded it (bus architectures, supporting components etc etc). A little more expensive than x86 and a pain if you only have access to x86 binary libraries but definitely worth it.

If you are only doing integer work then probably an Athlon system would be better than PPC for raw number crunching. This is a rough gut feel based on using various friends' Macs and my own Athlon system in general use (doing lots of stuff like compiling etc). My feeling is the surrounding infrastructure such as the CPU bus make it more worthwhile - particularly if you can grab an Athlon with the 266MHz bus :)

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[X]

I'd say he'd definitely be better off with a chip which can do 64-bit integer arithmetic (assuming his comments about 64-bit integers are correct) in a single cycle. That means basically Alpha, Sparc, and MIPS (there are loads of other options, but these are the closes to commidity chips, and I use that term loosely ;-). Bang for the buck wise, I'd say Alpha is probably the best of those three.

Things may change fairly quickly with the release of Intel's IA64 platform however. Whatever it's shortcomings, I bet it'll kick but in 64-bit integer arithmetic.

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[Smitty825]

One other important thing to ask is the state of the GCC complier for the PowerPC Platform. IIRC, it isn't as efficient as the ones available for the x86 and Alpha platforms. How much would LinuxPPC benefit from an optimized compiler and what sort of performance could be expected from LinuxPPC compared to Linux86/Alpha/others?

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[ppetrakis]

actually current versions of GCC like the one included in RH 7.0 are approaching the same speed as Compaq's own C compiler for alphalinux. Compaq's C/C++ compilers are free and available for download at Compaq's site. NOTHING can touch Compaq's FORTRAN compiler which is also free for Alphalinux.

Peter
--
www.alphalinux.org

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[X]

I disagree here. It is conceivable that IA-64 will do 64-bit integer arithmetic at speeds equal or exceeding an Alpha (most 64-bit integer math work can take advantage of all the IU's in the EPIC architecture). It is also conceivable that the IA-64 will be competitively priced with an Alpha. In such circumstances I'd be inclined to say IA-64 would be pretty good bang for the buck.

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[Senjaz]

Depends on the OS you will be coding on for each system. The PCC G4 chip would crunch this data faster than anything if you used Altivec. On the Mac altivec support is easy to write. I don't know about Linux PPC, but you could use darwin the base of MacOS X or MacOS X itself if you prefer UNIX.

If the app were properly threaded you could utilise Altivec on both processors of a G4 PowerMac. This would offer performance unbeaten by anyother desktop system, if you want faster buy an SGI or Sparc.

If you want to go with Linux + can't optimise for Altivec then target for AMDs x86 chips. The Athalon is the only x86 chip that gives the G4 a run for your money with number crunching.

G4 Info:
A single G4 contains in addition to its standard 32bit Integer units 2x 128bit Vector processing units, with 64 registers and a heap of cache to keep it fed. Each unit would crunch two of your 64bit Ints one op per cycle. The ops are non destructive - your output register is not one of your inputs. The large number of registers means you can perform very complex algorithms without having to perform load/stores (which slow things down terribly). Using the permute op you can rearrange your data very quickly.

It was this sort of thing that Altivec was specifically designed to handle and it does the job very well.

Re:Math intensive server stuff

[X]

21264's are currently available at 700MHz. We don't know what speed the IA64's are going to be going at (600MHz is at best an educated guess). Even if 600MHz does prove to be true, the IA64 architecture has unique benefits when it comes to doing lots of 64-bit integer math on large data sets. Intel actually has a paper on Itanium's capabilities for SSL encryption/decryption. You'll note that they're quoting performance for a 660MHz Itanium, which suggests they think that's a reasonable target.

Anyway, you'll notice in the document that the 21264 and 21364 both only have a single pipeline for 64-bit integer multiplies, while the Itaniam has a dual pipeline. Now, there are differences in the pipelines, but that suggests that an Alpha would have to be going at 2x the clock of it's Itanium competitor in order to match it's performance. Intel's own analysis suggests a 21264 takes 1,800 cycles to do what the Itanium does in 1,220. So based on that, the Alpha would have to be going at roughly 150% the clock of the IA64 to match it's performance.

We also have no idea what the price point would be for Itanium vs. Alpha. Certainly, the 21264 is one of the more expensive CPU's on the market, but I'm sure Itanium won't be cheap either. It seems likely though that Itanium will be fairly competitive with the 21264 on price.

All this is just speculation, but it does suggest that it's reasonable to at least allow for the possibility that the Itanium chip would actually be the best CPU out there (when it's released) for doing large amounts of 64-bit Integer math. If you're suggesting otherwise, you're either revealing insider information, or you think you know more than you do.

Re:Wimpy cars?

[NineNine]

No, I didn't say 'deserve'. Just like a woman who goes to a party dressed scantily doesn't 'deserve' to be raped. It's just something that you can do to protect yourself if you do so choose. He chose not to, and drove a tiny little car and paid the price.

Re:LinuxPPC vs OS X?

[um... Lucas]

Ermmm... obviously OS X, because once it ships it'll be the default installed OS. Kind of like how IE kicked Netscape out of the market.

Benefits

[bluelip]

Besides putting linux on every available device with some computing power, what benefit does linux on the mac have? I've been away from Apple products for quite a while. Is there a specific reason to use them? (Better graphics? Sound support? ROI?) What about compatibility? Is byte ordering problematic?

Conspiracy theory

[JCCyC]

Do you suspect the SUV driver might have been a secret M$ or Intel agent? ;-P

Platform Issues

[IanCarlson]

A question:

• Is LinuxPPC a viable alternative to x86 Linux? Can I run my department on a LinuxPPC-based server with the same peace-of-mind that I get on an i386-based box running Linux? Will I still enjoy the almost surrealistic uptimes I get with my current Linux server? Does the LinuxPPC code still suffer from chronic flakey-ness?

I'm currently looking into obtaining a PowerPC box to test out the current state of Linux on the PPC platform. Hopefully your answers will point me down the path of RISC utopia.

Re:Platform Issues

[thrig]

You may still encounter niggling issues when installing and/or attempting to customize a Linux PPC box-- in my experience, this usually has to do with X Windows (which a "real" server probably shouldn't be running) or issues with building your own custom kernel-- usually programs complaining about modules that got evicted during the make config stage. Nothing someone who knows linux well should be tripped up by.

That being said, I have Linux PPC running on a old 180 MHz Apple clone, running X Windows for me, an AppleShare server for about 25 users, development Apache webserver, samba, and whatever else I might be fooling around with:

$ uptime
10:28am up 126 days, 9:46, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

I threw out Gnome and KDE a few years ago for fvwm, which preforms much better, especially on an old crappy machine like mine.

Re:Platform Issues

[pungent]

This from an Apple 8500 that has been acting as name server for quite some time:

LinuxPPC June 1999
Kernel 2.2.6-15apmac on a ppc

1:04pm up 52 days, 21:06, 1 user, load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01

Which is pretty good since it isn't even on a surge supressor much less a UPS.

kernel compiling problems are pretty much noexistant with 2.2.18 now since most patches specific to ppc have been moved in.

In short: most stuff works/compiles for ppc though there are always some lingering problems with an architecture shift. Installation is arguably not as smooth as i386 machines. At least we have yaboot and ybin otherwise we would be lost on new world hardware (just about anything that isn't beige).

Re:Platform Issues

[Overnight Delivery]

Is LinuxPPC a viable alternative to x86 Linux?

I have a .misc server for my department doing apache, postgresql, samba etc. and haven't had a single crash or other "flacky" behavior.

The box is an old Motorola PowerSTACK with a 100Mhz ppc 604. I doesn't have X Windows so I can't comment on that but as far as serving go goes it a little ripper, or as much as one can expect for 100Mhz / 32Meg ram (it does it's job though).

Re:Platform Issues

[Arkham]

This box runs DNS for 4 domains, as well as a web server and email SMTP/POP. It's an 8-year-old 9500/200 running LinuxPPC.

Linux for PowerPC. Brought to you by The LinuxPPC Project.
Based on Red Hat Linux release 5.0 (Hurricane)
Kernel 2.2.1 on a PowerPC 604e
login: xltst
Password:
Last login: Mon Jan 1 15:26:25 from xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Welcome to the Resistance!

[xltst@beholder xltst]$ uptime
10:25pm up 218 days, 2:49, 8 users, load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.01

Re:Platform Issues

[jmenezes]

Sorry to nitpick, but the first power-pc based mac was released on may 1994, and that was the Power Mac 6100, which was soon followed by the 71 and 8100 machines...
it was still a few more years till the 9500/120 came out (late 95)..
so i dont think your 9500/200 is QUITE that old yet
:P

Will OSX make things easier?

[Lover's Arrival, The]

Hi, I have a Mac and a PC, so I am interested in Linuc for the PowerPC.

With OSX, with its Unix-like core, coming out for the Mac soon, will this make things easier for the Linux PowerPC project when it comes to Hardware drivers and generally fitting the OS to the machine? After all, in the future new models of the Mac will be optomised for a *nix-like OS, and I would have thought that this would make things better and easier for you.

(I am only guessing;)

LinuxPPC Lite?

[tenzig_112]

Are there plans to release a distro of LinuxPPC specifically suited for PPC users left behind by Apple and OSX? Most desktop users are put off by a default kitchen-sink install. It seems that with those services turned off, maintenance and operation is a bit more friendly to Unix newbies.

hot flaming grapes

OS X

[Auckerman]

How do you think a possible Feb OS X release date will affect acceptance of LinuxPCC among owners G3/G4's?

The Start

[bool]

What prompted the idea for LinuxPPC in the beginning and where do you see it going?

----------
do { Work(); PayTaxes(); Eat(); Sleep(); } while (alive)

Re:Wimpy cars?

[Skyshadow]

Well, there *is* something to be said for driving a slightly larger car -- I'd rather be in a Volvo in a crash than a Geo Metro anyday.

----

ATX motherboard availability?

[glrotate]

I think one thing that would foster Linux PPC adoption, and PPC in general would be a relatively cheap PPC motherboard. I remember IBM released their reference design some tine ago and there was some noise from 3rd parties about product anouncements, but nothing materialized. Does anyone know when we might see something?

Re:Wimpy cars?

[NineNine]

If it does, that'll be my fault for driving in a tank-prone area without a tank.

Why Now?

[Tymanthius]

I was reading the intro for this 'Hey, ask him' and it made it sound as though you didn't think about drunk driving until it affected you.

My question is: Why did it take that?

I'm not militant, but I've been known to knock my friends down rather than let them drive while under the influence of anything.

</soapbox>

Re:Why Now?

[cassie_haas]

Your question is good, but how does one "think" about drunk driving? In our daily lives, previous to the accident, we would "think" about drunk driving by: walking to our favorite bar, or taking a cab, rather than taking the risk of driving. Or, conversely, drinking at home. The person who hit Jason was a total stranger. If he'd been a friend, perhaps we could have controlled whether he got behind the wheel of his monster vehicle. As he wasn't, we didn't. As it stands, we are much more aware of the menace of drunk driving, sure. But Jason's accident has made us more aware of other things, too, such as traumatic brain injury. How often do you think about such things as breast cancer, or being mugged? Would you be more aware of it if it were to happen to you? Would seem less abstract? It sometimes takes traumatic events to place things on a person's internal map.

Re:Why Now?

[Tymanthius]

That's a really good point. Hadn't thought of it, and the breast cancer example struck a chord. I had never noticed some particular 'female' ailments until I met my wife. She is being treated for something that, left unattended, could become cancerous.

Thank you for bringing that point up.

merge with RedHat?

[A moron]

I've tried LinuxPPC several times over the years and have actually been disappointed. It just hasn't seemed polished and LinuxPPC, the company, has had some serious customer service problems.

Have you ever thought about or actually talked to RedHat as making LinuxPPC the RedHat Distro for PPC?

This would provide you with extra resources to keep LinuxPPC up to date and cleaner.

LinuxPPC and Mac Hardware

[Baconator]

Let me start by saying that I have been using LinuxPPC heavily for over a year now, and have fould the experience very good.

That said, however, I don't think that LinuxPPC is very likely to encourage people to by Mac hardware. Rather, it gives new life to old hardware. Got an old PowerMac 8500 lying around? Too slow to do much of anything useful with MacOS? That's where LinuxPPC comes in. Mac hardware is just too expensive to buy for the purpose of running Linux on.

Realistically, OS X will not change this. OS X is seriously processor-intensive stuff. It's clearly workstation-oriented: the GUI is the selling point. LinuxPPC, on the other hand, is great on all kinds of hardware for all kinds of uses.

How do you deal with apples hardware controls?

[Bonker]

As a technicly oriented non-coded who uses a variety of platforms, I understand that of the biggest problems people have faced when designing non-Apple OS's for Apple hardware is the existance of Apple's proprietary boot-roms and in-processor features. As I understand it, these features have all but destroyed BeOS's chances on the Mac. What challenges from this sort of 'hardware control' does LinuxPPC overcome, if any?

Re:How do you deal with apples hardware controls?

[Schnedt Microne]

I am by no means qualified to have a very strong opinion on this, but why hasn't somebody just dug into it and reverse engineered the mess that Apple makes with their proprietary boot process?

I run NetBSD on several Mac machines and it's a real disappointment that I have to keep a stubby little MacOS partition to boot from.

I know, I know, if I'm gonna rant, I should dive in and do it...

Re:How do you deal with apples hardware controls?

[GORDOOM]

There's something called yaboot out now, which allows a Linux system to boot directly from Open Firmware. So it is doable... the trouble is, you can't use yaboot to create a dual-boot system... and, unfortunately, yaboot is the only way to get a New World machine to boot into Linux... but I'll deal with that in *my* question...

On Driving Laws

[Voira]

I keep wondering about the legal ages for several things in this country (USA).
Driving age: 14-16
Legal sex age: 16-18 (?)
Marriage age: 15 (?)
Death penalty age: 14
Army age: 18
Voting age: 18
Drinking age: 21

It is amazing for how many things you are considered responsible enough for before you are allowed to drink.
That doesn't quite make much sense. Wouldn't it make much more sense having a legislation more European like? In Europe most countries have a legal drinking age 2 years lower than the driving age (Drink: 16, Drive: 18). What happens is that by the time you get to dive all the drinking hype is already gone and there are not so many accidents related to alcohol....
Would Americans trade one age for the other?

Just a thought

Re:On Driving Laws

[Black Parrot]

> It is amazing for how many things you are considered responsible enough for before you are allowed to drink.

That's because the system isn't based on rational premises; it's based on what the powerful want to enforce on the powerless.

BTW, did you know that voting age was 21 back during the Vietnam War, until people expressed outrage over the fact that

You're old enough for killin'
But not for votin'
-- Barry McGuire (IIRC)

--

Re:On Driving Laws

[brad3378]

&gt Would Americans trade one age for the other?

Interesting Proposal. I'd be curious to see how others feel about it, but until somebody convinces me otherwise, I'd be willing to bet that it would not work as well in the USA as the current system.

To back up my argument, I'd like to point out that impaired drivers are not always under the influence of Alcohol. Other drugs such as "X" are becoming much more popular these days, although I must admit I don't have any statistics to make claims about the most dangerous drugs behind the wheel.

I definitely wouldn't consider myself to be a typical American, or for that matter even a typical Slashdotter, but as a former drunk driver myself, I don't think that a higher drinking age would have stopped me since I was about 23 when I started drinking regularly, and about 24 before starting to drive home knowing that I was probably above the legal limit of .10% (about 5 drinks).

I have been to Europe, and I can attest to your claim that young Europeans have a different drinking Mentality. Sure, some do Binge drink like Americans, but overall, Europeans have much better "buzz control". Although Alcohol in Europe is cheaper than Pepsi (and sometimes water), They know when to stop.

I do agree with you that Hype is a major contributor to the problem. America probably even has the best Beer commericals in the world, but I don't think the answer to the problem is to lower the drinking age. The answer is to have drinkers become more responsible drinkers. Unfortunately it is difficult to force people to be responsible for their actions until after they get caught breaking the rules.

Re:On Driving Laws

[waketurbulence]

The problem runs deeper than that. US is a driving culture. With suburban sprawl getting worse every year cars are necessary part of everyday life. Public transportation is largely disfunctional, pedestrians are miserable and everyone is expected to drive. Otherwise you are basically imprisoned in one location.

Once you start with this background the rest becomes inevitable. Teenagers will need their driving licenses ASAP so they (and their parents who are sick and tired of chaeuffering them around) can have their freedom. When 16 year olds have access to automobiles long before they are entrusted with alcohol/voting and other adult responsibilites, it is not surprising that their maturity level lags far behind their capability for damage.

Finally government-subsidized fuel means that small cars are not attractive for most people. (Gas costs upto 4 times as much in Europe) Instead the combination of weak environmental laws, CAFE regulations which allows SUVs to get away with abysmal fuel economy and standard corporate practices from Detroit's big three leads to proliferation of soccer moms driving 8000lb SUVs.

WT

Re:On Driving Laws

[GlenRaphael]

Finally government-subsidized fuel means that small cars are not attractive for most people. (Gas costs upto 4 times as much in Europe)

The gas in the US is not government-subsidized, it simply isn't overtaxed quite as much as the gas in Europe. Last time I looked, a bit over a third of the cost of gas around here -- I'm in California -- is due to state and local gas taxes plus local sales taxes.

Re:On Driving Laws

[zhensel]

Personally, I wouldn't mind if the government:
1. Raised tax on unleaded gas to make it about $4 a gallon ala Europe. 2. Removed most diesel gas taxes. 3. Banned the use of diesel engines for private transporation outside of public transportation and shipping - with a mandate that local municipalities attempt to convert to electric transportation and increase public transportation in order to sustain federal funding (and increase federal funding with the addition of higher gas taxes).

As far as I see, this system I just made up a second ago would both aid in relieving private truck drivers who can't saddle the burden of gas taxes as well as reduce the amount of gass-guzzlers driving around. It would also lead to an increase in efficient public transportation that would help to lower our reliance on foreign energy. As a side note, if this ever happens, everyone should buy stock in Honda because of their kick-ass incite :)

Re:On Driving Laws

[zhensel]

Actually, children have been put to trials where the punishment could be death at ages under 14 (I believe one kid was 11. The courts, however, tend to give quadruple life sentences or the like rather than the death penalty though. BTW, the age of consent (sex) varies between 14 and 18 and the laws regarding it are hellishly confusing. You can also join the army when you are 17 (the army reserve anyway). You can't be drafted till you are 18 though.

Re:On Driving Laws

[zhensel]

Hmmm... I guess you'll just have to haul some feed around in your muscle car to get around the law eh? Everything has a loophole. I used to be a conservative. George (W) Bush changed all that (with a little help from Ralph Nader). By the way, I imagine my manner of death will be by way of gun eh? Wouldn't want anyone taking those away either.

Re:On Driving Laws

[Fizgig]

I read a study (by anti-urban sprawl people, so it was bound to be a bit biased) which suggested that in order for the price of gasoline to take into account all of the social costs that go along with it (big list: subsidized highway construction, pollution, the Gulf War, ...), the tax on gasoline (not just the retail price) would be $6.25.

Support and POP

[danboid]

I bought LinuxPPC 2000 from your company when it was released and I was very disappointed by it, especially your technical support . I sent a number of e-mails to your support address regarding my problems, none of which got answered. I think its quite sad that, unlike the x86 distros who have to cater for an almost unlimited number of configurations, you can't get a distribution out that works properly on a standard iMac- which is surely one of the first things you should test it on! So could anyone out there reading this tell me how to get X setup for greater depths than 8 bit under LinuxPPC 2000 (first release- don't know what Xfree- 3.something). Also, whatever happened to IBMs POP boards?

Re:Support and POP

[Malic]

Oh, I will second that! Support from LinuxPPC.com is awful. Truly a black hole with SMTP pointing at it. D/L'ing the Yellow Dog ISO is on my list of things to do in January.
--

Re:Support and POP

[friedo]

Have you tried the mailing lists? They're quite good.
You don't even have to be subscribed to post.

Your Perception Before and After the Accident

[TheNecromancer]

Jason,

First of all, I'd like to commend you and your wife for your courage and determination through your ordeal! I also hope they throw the book at the jerk who caused the accident!

My question is this: Do you find that your perception of the world and what your interests, passions and abilities are, different than before your accident? Has the accident changed your interests towards the computing industry?

Thanks,
TheNecromancer

Firestone tires

[AntiNorm]

Ask Jason what you will; about out-of-control SUVs (I don't think he likes them),

Does your car have Firestone tires?

---
Put your feet out and stop ... climb out and hang ...

Re:Drunk Drivers (goint further OT)

[XyouthX]

Do you actually believe that anyone would take up smoking if they knew what the consequences would be?
please..
I'm sure the majority of people have heard about the consequences a bazillion of times, but not everybody realizes what they mean.

Three questions I guess

[EXTomar]

- I've wanted to mess around with a PowerPC platform hardware but unlike Intel hardware it seems to be very hard to find for realitively cheap. Any hints on how to jump into LinuxPPC without running out to CompUSA and buying a PowerCube?

- Got any feelings about OSX? Will there be any nifty widgets(graphic, hardware drivers, or other) that you will be modeling from OSX for LinuxPPC?

- Have you kept track of the person that crashed into you? I mean in the sense that you made sure that he was dealt with in the courts properly. I don't want to imply you are vengeful or anything but do you think they were treated properly(to lightly, to harshly or something in between)?

Re:Three questions I guess

[thrig]

For cheap, you might root around in used hardware or school surplus areas for old Macs; just be sure to check that the hardware you are buying is supported by Linux PPC first:

http://linuxppc.org/hardware/supported/

P.S. anything with 'Performa' in it's name is bad.

Re:Three questions I guess

[friedo]

Jason's whole story about the accident is here. Apparenty, the dickhead who hit him had a BAC of 0.25, and will be charged with three felonies. Trial will be some time in January.

recovery time

[brad3378]

I have a hard time remembering certain things if I don't have enough exposure.

How much of your programming skill do you think you've forgotten, and how long do you think it will take you to get back to your old speed?

Your accident lessons

[Spackler]

About a year and a half ago, my fiancée and I were in a horrible car crash as well. We were also in a small car (Nissan Sentra), and were hit head-on by an SUV. I crushed my femur, broke my hip, and 4 ribs (I walk pretty good now after 2 reconstruction surgeries). My fiancée (now my wife thank God) lost her spleen, 1/3 of her liver, compound fracture of her heel, crushed lungs, and on a respirator for 4 weeks in ICU before she started to come out of it. We are both still recovering (Someday, I'd like to stand up and have it not hurt!).

Things like this can teach you lessons, or destroy you. From that perspective, my question is: What were the biggest lessons you learned from it? (I ask that as someone who has gone through it, and learned a lot about what is important, and what is not.)
This is more of a life question than a geek one.

-Spackler

PS: Yes, we drive big trucks now (F-150), and I'd never own a small car, even if it were given to me!

Re:Your accident lessons

[ColMstrd]

The logical conclusion: drive a tank. And then we can all swim to work when your CO2 emissions melt the ice-caps.

Re:Your accident lessons

[passion]

PS: Yes, we drive big trucks now (F-150), and I'd never own a small car, even if it were given to me!

hmm, so you're trying to solve the problem through escalation. Do you believe that your accident was made worse because the other driver was in a SUV? Now you're just placing 2 more large vehicles on the road which increases the chances that people in small cars get killed instead of maimed.

When will Jeep Cherokee owners start switching to something bigger because they're afraid of being hit by a suburban or a semi?

Advantage?

[doonesbury]

As it stands right now, Linux on the Mac is kind of an odd bird; most people don't have a lot of *spare* Macs of PPC level or higher hanging around, and it's currently cheaper to spend one's cash on a dreaded Wintel box to run Linux that it is to spend cash on a Mac to do the same thing.

On top of that, when Macs aren't in the hands of "make this as easy as possible" guys (neophytes or people who don't care about anything but running such-and-such a program), Macs are quite often found in the hands of "graphics guys" - where, despite the fact that GIMP is great and all, there's not a ton of fantastic programs available. In other words, the majority of the Mac crowd just ain't Linux types, really.

So: when it comes down to brass tacks - where's the advantage for the average MacOS power user to use LinuxPPC over MacOS? Contrawise, where's the advantage of a Linux user to have a Mac box?

BSD-Linux mini-flame

[emil]

Would it be possible to replace the BSD kernel in OS X with Linux, and have there been any serious discussions regarding this? I imagine you would be the point man in such an investigation.

Linux does seem to be a better choice, as it is more scalable, is about to get a journaled file system, and has a dazzling array of hardware support.

I would almost rather see Apple throw itself behind HURD than cause more fragmentation amongst the BSDs. It seems the deciding factor was the BSD liscense, and not any technical advantage (although I am probably wrong, and I don't have access to POWER equipment of any sort [not even an AS/400], so I am hardly authoritative).

I did follow the progress of your injury, and I hope your recovery is proceeding well and some good has come out of the experience.

Re:BSD-Linux mini-flame

[Knobby]

I would almost rather see Apple throw itself behind HURD than cause more fragmentation amongst the BSDs.

Mac OS X does not use the BSD kernel. It uses the Mach kernel, just like HURD I believe..

As for the Linux replacing BSD question, forget it.. Mac OS X is an upgraded version of the NeXT OS, and the developers that Apple has working on this project are comfortable with the BSD layer. I personally run OS X PB on a B&W G3 and am constantly amazed. The interface is still a little slower than OS 9 and earlier, but the stabilty si very very nice. (It's funny, I can remember the last time my PowerBook crashed running OS 8.6.)

Support for Nubus Macs

[empty]

Why are Nubus powerMacs (i.e., PM6100, 7100 and 8100) not supported by LinuxPPC?

I know that MkLinux supports them...but if MkLinux can, then theoretically so could LinuxPPC. Is the problem a technical problem or a resource problem (no one wants to do it...) or something else?

Re:Support for Nubus Macs

[AlexH]

See http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/.

CHRP "Open Source" motherboards?

[rrwood]

There was a little noise made last year about IBM giving away just about everything you need to start manufacturing PPC CHRP motherboards:

http://slashdot.org/articles/99/08/24/1922212.shtm l
http://slashdot.org/articles/99/08/13/1658200_F.sh tml
http://macweek.zdnet.com/1999/08/08/ibmppc.html

I recall reading something on www.linuxppc.com in which you guys indicated that you'd been talking/working with IBM about this prior to the public announcements, and that you guys were going to be supporting PPC systems based on these boards.

Soooo, what's up with that? When will I be able to pick up a reasonably cheap PPC motherboard, build up a nice system, and slap LinuxPPC on it?

-Roy

Linux and Accessibility

[FourG]

Jason,

During your recovery period, did you find the need to use any accessibility tools to accomplish tasks? If so, what were your impressions? Does Linux have the tools people with alternative interface needs (like text-to-speech) need to access their information?

Congrats on your recovery progress. I'm glad to see the world hasn't lost another good person to a drunk driver's carelessness.

Convergence or Divergence

[Omega996]

Do you see LinuxPPC becoming more like its i386 brethren (more generic or uniform in hardware support), or taking advantage of some of the PPC hardware's special abilities (altivec on the G4, for example)? I know that linux on the PPC helped drive the frame buffer device for X-Windows, for example; do you see something similar happening for altivec or Firewire?

How does this woo the dedicated Mac User?

[solios]

First off, I'm a graphics geek. I passed my GWBASIC class in high school by staying after class and copying working assigments onto my disks. I make pretty pictures, and I'm poor. I grok the Linux ideal, am frustrated by the command line, and have neither the time nor the programming skills to "shut up and fix it". I administer my own network of Macs in addition to pixel-pushing. Consider me an educated end user- your target audience, if Linux is to make its way firmly into the desktop market. From my point of view, it doesn't have a chance in hell for years to come, and I shall explain why.

Let's see... from personal experience, I'm anti-Linux PPC. Yes, the disk boots... if you could call it that. On a G3/400 with 384 megs of RAM, it boots and hangs. On a G3/400 Powerbook (firewire) with 128 megs of RAM, DVD, and everything but the kitchen sink, it shits itself trying to load and has repeated HDA errors, aud infiintum.

Why tell the universe that the product boots on CD when this likely applies only to specific hardware? Where's the list of "it boots on THIS configuration"?

There's really no reason for me to use this over Debian, which at least boots and gets me into a formatting utility- on the Y2K powerbook, from the CD. The problem with Debian PPC, something I haven't noticed with Linux PPC because the distro barfs before it gets this far, is that the install process is, in a word, archaic. In a few more words, it's confusing as fuck, has no help of any kind, is totally ass backwards and made me laugh out loud. We're dealing with Mac hardware here folks.... the MacOS installer is the easiest damned thing in the friggin' UNIVERSE to use- start off of the CD, install on whatever drive has the free space. Or hose a drive and split it up any way you want, then install. Oh, and you have full UI functionality while you're doing this- so up until you hit the pretty "format" button, you can save your data by moving it to another hard drive or a network disk. Shit, you can install the entire OS onto an existing disk without harming any existing anything- if you have the space.

The point is, Mac users expect this. Linux users probably got their start on the PC- and considering the cheap cost of hardware, there's no real point to the vast majority of them crossing over to the Mac. So I'm assuming this is being presented as an alternative for Mac users who are interested in Linux but don't want to buy a PC... or who tried MOSX and barfed. So why shoot yourselves in the face with disks that "kinda sorta" boot, on "all PPC macs" (save my Pismo, thank you), and then expect Mac users to spend the time figuring out how to Make Linux Go when there current operating system Just Works?

I'll start running Linux fulltime as soon as...
1. It installs as easily as MacOS. [as in, I push a button and it does the rest for me, or I can tinker to my hearts content. I shouldn't be worrying about partition numbers and boot blocks and hard drive allocation blocks and the partridge in a pear tree.]
2. A distro comes packaged with a GUI that:
A. Doesn't look like Windows.
B. Has pop-up folders.
C. Has a control strip.
D. Has the equivalent of an Apple Menu and an Application Menu.
E. Has universal drag and drop.
F. Comes with anti-aliased fonts, color management comparable to colorsynch, and utilities that make managing internet and network settings as easy as the present MacOS.
3. I can do everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) I can do in Photoshop in GIMP.

Re:How does this woo the dedicated Mac User?

[dmaxwell]

LinuxPPC is more likely to be used by sysadmin type than a graphics geek. If a graphics geek DOES use it then it is probably as a fileserver. The Freenices, much as I like them, are still more feasible as industrial strength servers for the masses rather than magic multimedia boxes for the masses. If I had lots of Photoshop work to do, I would use MacOS. If I want to serve files to Macs and PCs with good performance and no additional license costs I'll use LinuxPPC or NetBSD. Ditto for any type of firewalling or web and ftp on the net.

It's a matter of using the right tool for the right job. MacOS for creative client uses and a Freenix for serving.

All this said, a little patience helps too. I use x86 Linux as a VERY comfortable desktop and didn't particularly mind some of the hoops I had to jump through to get there. But then....I'm a tech support geek.

still drive a honda?

[brad3378]

Just wondering if you are sticking with a Honda or if you've moved on to driving something larger (larger usually means safer).

Re:still drive a honda?

[cassie_haas]

We drive a 2000 Honda Accord now, which has many more safety features than the 1989 Honda Civic that Jason drove previous to the accident. Yes, it *is* a bit larger. cassandra

Re:still drive a honda?

[cyoon]

Though the Honda pictured is a small one, they're no longer the cars they used to be. They've taken an impressive turn toward innovation in car manufacturing techniques and marketing. Today's Hondas are among the largest and safest in their class (albeit more expensive, though TCO is arguably lower). Take a look at the 1998-2001 Accord or the 2001 Civic and they've come a long way. I wouldn't risk driving anything before 1992 or 1993, though -- they're just not the same breed.

Whazzup with MK?

[rf600r]

Any idea what's up with the ole' MKLinux project?

Will LinuxPPC get stronger or weaker?

[TheLittleVoices]

I was just wondering what road the LinuxPPC development team would take with the introduction of Mac OSX. Before it was either choose the Mac interface or the command line (LinuxPPC or BSD) but now people can get the best of both worlds with the introduction of Mac OSX.

Do you see LinuxPPC getting stronger or weaker in both the Mac market and the embedded market as Apple finalizes it's NeXT great OS? Do you see yourself combining efforts with Apple in any way including porting applications such as star office?

By the way, great job!

Permanent Effects

[Saint Nobody]

There's a lot of questions here regarding the accident itself, or it's psychological/emotional consequences, but i'm curious about the physical consequences, too.

<p>How has the accident changed you, in terms of permanent physical damage, any psychological damage, and just about anything else?</p>
<p>I would imagine that something as drastic as that car accident would change your life radically and permanently in many ways.</p>

Re:Permanent Effects

[Saint Nobody]

i'm dumb. i didn't set the damn thing to HTML formatted...

There's a lot of questions here regarding the accident itself, or it's psychological/emotional consequences, but i'm curious about the physical consequences, too.

How has the accident changed you, in terms of permanent physical damage, any psychological damage, and just about anything else?

I would imagine that something as drastic as that car accident would change your life radically and permanently in many ways.

Linux PPC & MacOS X

[maggard]

Jason -

What's your take on MacOS X? As the main point-person on the biggest other Mac-based *nix I'm sure you've been keeping track of it. How do you consider what's coming out of Apple as an OS, specifically as a *nix implementation?

Next, has Apple's open-sourcing Darwin been of any advantage to Linux PPC? Has someone ever popped into their code & looked up how they handled an point or what their solution was to a Mac-specific issue?

Back to your own stuff, where do you see Linux PPC going as regards to the other linuxen? Any stuff you see as being unique strengths of Linux PPC (aside from it's hardware)?

Finally, what issues do you regularly run into being on a non-X86 platform? What could developers do to improve portability for you? What's your "I-wish-they'd" list look like?

-- Michael

Re:Drunk Drivers (goint further OT)

[Peter Dyck]

Are you serious?

I drink alcohol and occasionally smoke both tobacco and marijuana.

Having lost an uncle to a liver failure (he was a heavy drinker) and having a friend with lung emphyzema I have no illusions about what booze and tobacco can do to me. However, it's a risk I'm willing to take to make this shitty life a bit more pleasurable.

PPC a 'minority' processor

[fatphil]

How do you rate the following as reasons for the PPCs lower market share:
- Apple's restrictive (often non-existant) licensing/OEM policy.
- Linux only reaching PPC relatively recently.
i.e.
- could linux have saved the PPC from its unfair minority fate?

FatPhil
(who happily runs AlphaLinux on another 'minority' CPU)
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards

What do you mean by *KNOW*?

[FatSean]

Shit, in Australia they have huge signs that say "Smoking Kills" at the counter in convenience stores, but people still smoke!

What else can society do to discourage this behaviour? Nothing! People KNOW it's dangerous. People know eating high-fat foods in dangerous, as is speeding, and about a bazillion other things commonly done.

The statistics are there, the odds are there, and people keep rolling the dice.

SUV's are great - for a certain audience

[DG]

I think that SUV's are great vehicles - for a certain audience. The problem is that people are buying them for the "wrong" reasons.

I have a 1991 Chev Suburban 2WD. I also have an Eagle Talon race car, and the trailer it fits on. The 'burban is the tow vehicle.

For long haul trips hauling a race car, three sets of tires, enough gas for the weekend, tools, spares, and all the other miscellanious sundry required, nothing beats a great big SUV. In fact, I'm in the market for a new one, and I'm having trouble finding one I consider "big enough".

But I'm not the problem here. The problem is those that buy an SUV in the belief that it renders them invincible to weather conditions. The soccer moms roaring down an unplowed Interstate at 80 MPH.

There is an element of truth here - I drive race cars, right? So I took the 'burban out onto a snowy parking lot, to see how easy it was to slide it around, what braking distances were like, and so on. There's no doubt in my mind that the limits in adverse weather are quite a bit higher in an SUV than in a "normal" passenger car. This means that an SUV in the hands of the blissfully ignorent is much less likely to lose control.

However, once control is lost, the laws of physics dictate that a heavy SUV moving at high speed will have a lot more energy and momentum to dissipate in the crash, which means a lot more damage - especially if the SUV hits a smaller vehicle.

Note that THIS is nothing new either - look at what happens when car meets semi - but your average truck driver is much more competant than Ms Soccer Mom.

The problem here is not the SUVs. The problem is people who don't understand the limits of their vehicles, and who drive in excess of those limits (or while talking on the cell phone, or whatever) Idiocy is not limited to SUV drivers.

I'll give you an example. When the tow rig is fully loaded up, the stopping distances get pretty long (trailer brakes notwithstanding) So I leave a correspondingly longer distance between myself and the vehicle in front of me - the idea being that if the car in front of me stops NOW, that I have time to react and get the rig stopped. Well, that buffer space has to be the most attractive thing on the road, because I can't count the number of times that guys in little cars (with much shorter stopping distances than the rig) will move into that buffer space. You do that, and you have taken your own life into your hands, because if you stop before I can re-establish the buffer, then all 10,000lbs of me will be eating your rear bumper if you stop.

Driving is an *active process*, but far too many people treat it as a passive routine. That's your problem.

One final point - I don't have the details about Jason's accident, but I know that every single time I cross an intersection my eyes are up checking the crosstreets for someone approaching too quickly WELL before I enter the intersection myself; green light be dammed. That extra little bit of situational awareness has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. Jason may have been able to do the same.

Assume that everyone on the road is **actively trying to kill you**, drive accordingly, and you'll never have an accident.

DG

Re:SUV's are great - for a certain audience

[cassie_haas]

The details (which you should've bothered to find out before posting such a passionate, but wrongheaded paean to SUVs and stupidity): Jason was sitting at a red light when the drunk idiot in the SUV attempted to drive *through* his car. There is not really anything one can do when one is innocently sitting at a red light, in terms of safety. The only actions you can control are your own. Your advice is good, but useless, in this case. cassandra

Re:SUV's are great - for a certain audience

[_outcat_]

H'lo, Cassandra, and like others have said in this thread, good to see someone with authority.

Two good friends of mine died in a car accident a few years ago because of a drunk driver. It was at night--what time of day did Jason's accident occur? The idiot tried to drive right THROUGH them as well--but there was no way they could have avoided him; the guy DID NOT HAVE his lights on. I'm with you on this one--there are those saying Jason could have avoided the accident, and sure, he could have pulled forward--IF he saw the creep coming, IF there were a place to go out of a busy intersection, IF the guy would have even stopped if he'd pulled forward.

Also, when you're sitting at a red light, you can't always gauge how the person is coming up behind you until it's too late. My brother is an excellent driver, and while he was sitting at a red light some moron sped up behind him and trashed his rear bumper. No one was hurt, thank God. I, myself, have often jumped forward a bit at a red light when I see someone speeding up behind me--and they stop without hitting me. It's hard to gauge when your only eye contact with the vehicle coming behind you is perhaps a glance at a mirror.

Best regards to you and Jason; tell him to keep up the great work.

-"The Gimp Girl"

What about caffine?

[FatSean]

Get a little wired on coffee and hop behind, no problem right?

Re:What about caffine?

[FatSean]

No...

I was wondering if he felt driving while on caffine is OK...

Cause I know a few people who get edgy and irritable on the stuff, making "road rage" much more likely.

Re:What about caffine?

[_outcat_]

I rolled a car a few years ago after 8 espresso shots.

Granted, I was coming down a hill with very loose gravel combined with a good deal of ice, but I think my reflexes would have been better if I had been paying a bit more attention and hadn't been so shaky.

Now I never drive when I know I've had a bit much caffeine.

-"The GIMP Girl"

Re:What about caffine?

[jidar]

Comparing caffeine to alchohol in the context of driving impairment is just assininely stupid.
I mean, seriously fucking moronic here.

Let me put it this way, I have penguin mints here and I've been drinking soda all night. I can -still- hit 70% with my railgun in Quake, I wouldn't put any money on being able to hit 20% after I've had 2 beers though.

Re:What about caffine?

[Tymanthius]

Actually, other than a gallon of tea in a day once in a while, I don't drink that much.

But yea, I've seen ppl who shouldn't drive when hyped on caffine.

Me, I rarely get mad at other drivers - but I get VERY disgusted by stupidity in general, on or off the road.

Life as a minority CPU

[rrwood]

Given the overwhelming majority of x86 boxen out there, I don't think it's unreasonable to state that PPC systems are viewed as second-class citizens by most developers. (Major kudos to Loki for supporting PPC in their Linux ports of interactive realtime multimedia applications.)

Given that Open Source programmers tend to have limited time and even more limited access to machines that are not sitting in their bedroom/office/whatever, how hard has it been to convince developers to support PPC systems? And for that matter, how much of a pain-in-the-ass is it to support PPC? (endian issues is about all that comes to mind)

And while we're discussing the nightmarish complexity of assembling and maintaining all the bits and pieces that comprise a Linux system, what's it like putting together a complete distribution anyway?

-Roy

Jason, I have only one question to ask:

[AFCArchvile]

WHY???

With OS X being based on BSD, why even bother continuing development on LinuxPPC? BSD will be many times more stable, and will do nearly everything that LinuxPPC can, only better, more efficiently, and more reliably.

Re:Math intensive server stuff [thanks =:-)]

[drenehtsral]

Thanks. My current two test-bed machines are an Athlon 750 and a Dual Pentium III 800. I can't wait for the dual athlons to come out =:-)

But the Camaro is still faster!

[FatSean]

ha ha ha

On the TCO of PPCL

[supabeast!]

My question:

Is it worth the cost to have a Mac running PPC Linux? I have been considering buying a Mac of some sort to run Linux on, but for the cost of a decent Mac I could build (At least) two blazing fast AMD PCs.

The difference, of course, is in that G4 processor. Do you feel that the G4 (Or even the G3 on an iMac.) processor, combined with Linux, offers the power to match the cost?

PPC (Apple Hardware) Support - LinuxPPC vs BeOS

[TJPile]

Apple all but killed future support for the BeOS on PPC hardware when it quit providing the technical specs on the new motherboard architectures, and etc. LinuxPPC overcame this with, in my opinion, far fewer resources than Be Inc. Maybe it's a testiment to each OS's user devotion, or OpenSource vs 'ClosedSource', I don't know. My question is, why do you think LinuxPPC was able to successfully continue supporting the newer hardware from Apple when Be couldn't? Also, do you think there may be the posibility of technology sharing between Be Inc. and LinuxPPC?

Re:PPC (Apple Hardware) Support - LinuxPPC vs BeOS

[-kevin-]

I was wondering about this myself...

Re:PPC (Apple Hardware) Support - LinuxPPC vs BeOS

[jidar]

Ohh.. good one. Mod this one up.

Re:Wimpy cars?

[MissingFrame]

I personally like to let a little air out of the SUV tires, since they've obviously chosen to put themselves in danger that way.

For 64-bit integer math: neither

[X]

If you're doing mostly 64-bit integer math, you'll wan't an ISA that supports operations on 64-bit integers. Standard PPC and x86 chips do not have that (IBM has some 64-bit PPC chips/systems out there).

I think you'll find Alpha will kick butt, with Sparc being another potential contender (probably too pricy for the net benefit).

PPC experience

[scharkalvin]

Where I used to work we had evaluated Windows NT on some Motorola PPC boxes. I don't remember the exact model but they were in boxes looking alot like the old Dell Dimension cases, MB had multiple PCI slots, SCSI and sound on board. After MS dropped PPC support for NT I got to try and install Linux on these boxes. The hardest part was figuring out which boot floppy image to download and how to tell the bios to boot from the floppy! Anyway it seems that there are many custom PPC systems how do you get the installer to deal with this?

Hope you are recovering well and sue the bastards ass off! No way you should have to dig into your pockets to pay to make yourself whole again!

iBook and LinuxPPC

[X]

I got my SO an iBook (with wireless LAN) for Christmas. She's pretty happy with it, but I've been considering putting Linux on it. She's used Linux on my computer without much difficulty, so I'm not so concerned about usability issues, but I am concerned about hardware issues, and of course the ability to dual boot. I checked out LinuxPPC's site, and dual boot seems like a manageable issue, but I was wondering if you could comment on iBook hardware support.

Re:iBook and LinuxPPC

[GORDOOM]

Actually, I have a comment about this:

The only way to set up a dualboot between the Mac OS and LinuxPPC on a New World machine (that is, an iMac, an iBook, a Lombard or Pismo PowerBook, a Yosemite G3, or any G4-based system) is to make changes directly in Open Firmware. BootX does not work on these machines, and yaboot does not support any kind of dual booting.

This leads to my question:

Is there anything in the works to provide dualboot support for machines with New World ROMs?

Re:iBook and LinuxPPC

[jrockway]

iBooks should work fine (with Airport, too!). Check out iBookLinux for some more info.

in the beginning...

[Lycestra]

How did you get started in computers? And why Mac hardware as opposed to x86 or Amiga?

GenX tend to have interesting stories of computers in the 70s-80s.

MacOS Emulation

[rrwood]

As many users of VMWare and other similar backwards-compatibility-environment tools will attest, it's nice to be able to run applications written for a different OS within a Linux environment. Fortunately for LinuxPPC fans who want to run MacOS apps, you can do the same sort of thing right now using Mac-on-Linux, and if they ever make it out of Beta, you'll eventually be able to use SheepShaver.

My question is to what degree do you think the existence of tools like Mac-on-Linux actually further the Worldwide Domination by Linux. Along the same line of thought, who then do you see as your target audience/customers?


-Roy

A case of "prisonners dilemna"

[renoX]

Yes, but this quite a simplification.

Because if everybody starts driving heavier cars, you go back to the beginning.. a classic "prisonners dilemna" I would say.

And its the nature which loose if everybody starts using heavier cars, because heavier cars needs more energy..
Of course it supposes that people do care about ecology which is quite doubtfull for the "average american".. (we're on /. right?)

PS: this is not a flame, just what anyone can deduce from the average energy-consumption per man in the USA..

Accessibility of Linux on the Mac

[jpsc]

The Mac and its respective proprietary OS are known for their ease of use in schools and for the disabled. Applications' accessibility, or their ability to be used by disabled users (e.g., visually impaired individuals) and users who speak something other than English, is something that we Linux users and developers tend not to think about.

• Have you or anyone else at LinuxPPC thought about how to make Linux on the Mac as competitive (with the proprietary software bundled with Macs) and useful in the accessibility arena as in all others?
• Do you agree with the idea that in order to ensure widespread use of Linux for the Mac (e.g., in schools) you should consider accessibility?
• What could you reasonably do to increase the accessibility of your distro?
• Do you agree with the idea that in order to fully live up to the notion of "free as in speech software for everyone" we must include non-sighted and otherwise disabled users?

Thanks,

JP Schnapper-Casteras

P.S.: Just so you know that your answer to this question will actually result in something, I should let you know that in a few months I'm going to be organizing around a dozen different workgroups that will focus on topics such as GNOME, KDE, and X accessibility, Braille, etc. If you are interested see Project Ocularis, the announcement of the Linux Accessibility Conference in March, this summary about Linux accessibility, or this longer editorial on the potential of free software for the visually impaired.

If you want to make sure my project (Project Ocularis) and I are legitimate see this reference at Sun's web site, this one a Linux.com, or this one on Linuxnews.com, or this interview on American Council of the Blind radio.

Well, because...

[Pope]

OS X won't run well on older Mac hardware, whereas LinuxPPC will.
I've been dual booting OS X and MacOS 9 on a G4 with the public beta, and if you're a Mac guy with a spare older machine sitting around that you wanna get your hands dirty with *nix, it's not going to be OS X.

Pope

Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!

Re:LinuxPPC to get LILO?

[um... Lucas]

Yeah... i was rather pissed that though LinuxPPC installed fine on the first shot on my Umax C500 mac clone (180 MHz PPC 603e), since the box didn't have ethernet onboard, and since LinuxPPC didn't supply a driver for my Asante ethernet card, it turned into a rather useless install...

Oh well... in the end things worked out... Now i've a 7100 with VideoVision to do video capture, an Athlon/Linux system to act as the server, and the Umax machine to be the edittor... Sweet little setup thanks to the 100 mbps connection between the later two.

But really... IF you're going to run linux, at this point i'm assuming it should be run on only x86 hardware, unless you're wanting to get your hands really dirty coaxing it to run...

Hey..:)

[Fixer]

Jason, I just read the entirety of your significant other's journals, and your own. I can only say that I haven't ever read anything quite so heartwrenching and yet, hopeful at the same time. You've got a wonderful wife, cherish her.

My only question is that, after all that's happened, do you feel yourself again?

Altivec and MP G4's?

[esome]

ok, newbie questions but:

1)How much can a PPC linux distro can benefit from Altivec optimization?

2)Does LinuxPPC enjoy the same degree of improved performance from additional processors that OS-X does?

flame away...

PowerPC Open Platform & SMP

[doorbot.com]

Question:

What is the status of the PowerPC Open Platform? It's been out for a little while now, and I seem to recall that there was at least one manufacturer who was planning on making POP-based PCs. Do these machines exist as a commercial product? Will they/do they run LinuxPPC?

What is the current state of SMP on LinuxPPC? Are there many SMP PPC machines (beyond the few Mac MP machines) that will run LinuxPPC? Does SMP with G3 processors work, or does one need to use 604 or G4 processors?

Still may have been able to avoid it...

[DG]

Hi Cassie, good to see someone with authority commenting. Your journal entries made fascinating reading, and I'm glad to see you both came through OK.

But as for the "stopped at red light" scenario, Jason *still* may have been able to evade the accident. If he had been watching his mirrors, he may have been able to see the vehicle coming, and get out of the way.

No, I'm not on crack. In fact, a demonstration of this very manouever is the centerpoint of a TV commercial for the Young Drivers of Canada driving school.

After a while, this all becomes reflexive. Step on the brake, check the mirrors. Stopped at the light, check the light, check the mirrors, check the light, back to the mirrors... etc.

This is not to say that Jason is *at fault* for the accident - a certain drunk bastard bears that responsibility. But neither is he completely innocent either. When you go out on the road, you place yourself in harm's way. If you do not remain aware of your surroundings and maintain a level of readiness to react to changes in your surroundings, then you are placing a measure of your security into the hands of others - and those others tend to be mainly idiots.

You'll note the numbers of "may"s in the above. It's quite possible that he'd've gotten hit no matter what he tried to do. But the description I remember made no note of _any_ attempt at evasive action (although his memory of the event may be at fault here) Ask him. If the answer was "I didn't even see him coming" then you've found your answer.

In any case, a drunk idiot in an SUV is a drunk idiot - the vehicle he's driving makes little difference. You'd be just as well served railing against the evils of semis, busses, and front-end-loaders with drunks behind the wheel.

Re:Still may have been able to avoid it...

[schon]

An interesting aside to this..

I just bought a new car (2001 Neon, for the curious..:o).. the first day we had it, I almost got smoked from behind while stopped at a light..

The guy behind me (a taxi) stopped late, and the camaro behind him couldn't stop in time.. I heard the screech of brakes, and immediately moved forward out of the way.. a second later the taxi's front fender was where my back seat would have been..

I've never had any defensive driving courses, but (in my mind) it makes sense to leave room between you and the guy in front of you.

My first vehicle was a motorcycle, and the friend who taught me how to ride gave me one piece of advice that I always use, whether I'm in a car or on a bike:

"Pretend you're invisible, and drive accordingly."

Interestingly enough, my wife started driving lessons a few weeks ago, and one of her first lessons was "accident avoidance" - where they covered this exact same topic..

Re:Still may have been able to avoid it...

[Coz]

It's a tough call... I've been the guy watching someone loom up in his rear-view, and I've been the guy checking his pager after coming to a stop at the light... I'm not about to pass judgement on anyone who's been in that kind of a wreck.

As for the guy looming up behind me - I'd stopped at the red light, on a downhill slope, and given myself a good 4 feet between me and the next guy... which was good, 'cause I moved 3 feet forward when the guy came over the hill behind me, locked 'em up, and slid into my back bumper (only doing 15-20 when he hit, by my guess). If I'd been hanging on the bumper of the guy ahead of me, we've had a nice little 3-car chain reaction (at least) and gotten to test out yet another set of 5 MPH bumpers.

All's well that you walk away from... and even better if you can still drive.

Re:Still may have been able to avoid it...

[jidar]

Had he not been drunk, it wouldn't have happened. Had he not been driving an SUV, there wouldn't have been nearly so much damage. Had you any brains, you wouldn't be laying the blame on Jason for not getting out of the way when DRUNK DRIVER IN AN SUV RAMMED INTO HIM WHILE SITTING AT A RED LIGHT.

Christ. Did you check your brain at the fucking door or what?

Irresponsible automobile manufacturers

[Knight]

I know this has already been adressed to a small degree in this thread, but not well, and I apologize if this comment seems insensitive or off-topic, but I would be interested to know your opinion.

I agree that SUVs are very dangerous on roads, and it seems that poor drivers are often at the wheel. However, Honda is famous for (at least during the 80's and early 90's) making cars extremely light to improve fuel efficiency. Kia and Hyundai currently do this. This seems extremely irresponsible to me. While these cars can be made in such a way that they do not crush the passenger or driver (which it appears was not the case with your Honda, unfortunately), they still cannot eliminate the biggest problem with lightweight vehicles: instant acceleration. When a light car is struck by a medium to large vehicle (say, 3300 to 4000 lbs.), it accelerates instantly much faster than it would have if it weighed just a bit more. Depending on speed and many other factors, just 500 lbs. can mean the difference between 8 and 12 g-forces. That's a big difference. My car (a 1994 cavalier with a V6) was rear-ended by another vehicle going 55 mph while my vehicle was traveling at 5-7 mph. I was not injured. My sister's Toyota Celica was hit by a car going only 30 mph in front of our house. My dad and I spent 15 minutes tearing the door off to get her out, because the car was thoroughly crushed. Luckily, she recovered in a few weeks, but some people aren't so lucky. I realize that many people are convinced that Asian vehicles are more reliable, nicer, etc.; but they are designed in countries where speeds over 40 mph are very rare, and as such, they often cannot handle a collision that isn't bumper-to-bumper at low speed. I know I'm not giving any empirical evidence here, and I admit that a large part of the problem are vehicles like Suburbans and Excursions, but I won't be caught driving a Honda/Toyota/Nissan or any product of their divisions, because I have seen what happens to them in accidents.

One more bit of info about me: I have, in the past, raced cars semi-professionally. Mostly, I drag-raced, but I also raced a few races at PIR. I've been in my share of wrecks, including an end-over-end incident at 240+ mph at a dragstrip. We can blame the SUVs, but that's only part of the problem, because if I can walk away from that wreck, Japan can definitely add a few pounds of metal to their cars for our safety. I have no desire to be surrounded by plastic when my life is on the line.

Re:Irresponsible automobile manufacturers

[jidar]

Make your car larger to improve its reactions in a collision because there are cars that are larger. Hrm.. where does this line of reasoning lead to? Eventually everybody is driving a tank that gets 2mpg and emits as much crap into the air as a small town coal power plant.

How is this, 2 1000lb cars colliding is a much safer collision than 2 8000lb cars. Smaller cars would be safer if 1/3 of americans didn't drive monster trucks as status symbols. This is vanity and it's ruining the environment while killing people.

Rushed to market.

[Usquebaugh]

Do you feel Linux on the PPC was pushed into the market place too soon?

I have an IMAC DV and under both LinuxPPC and SuSE/PPC the hardware is still not recognised/supported.

I feel that if LinuxPPC concentrated on the newer machines your market share would increase dramatically.

How to make any cd bootable on a mac

[Duck0987]

After installing a debian port on a 68k macintosh it would not be hard to make the disk bootable. All you need is a working MacOS system folder burnt on to a cd that has be made as a bootable cd, if you use toast fo the burning this is very simple just check the bootable option. And if you want to compleatly automate the process all you would need to do is put the penguin loader, preferences in the startup folder inside the system folder and have the preferences pointed at the kernal, and bang you hold down 'c' on boot and you are ready to go

unless anyone sees why this wouldn't work

Re:How to make any cd bootable on a mac

[darkonc]

I don't know much about Mac OS, but here's a shot: by "working system folder", you man a slim version of Mac OS, right? That'd be a violation of copyright.

No. All you need is a "System Folder", but instead of MacOS, the file contains the boot process for Linux. By the time the CPU realizes the difference, it's too late. You've already got a penguin on the screen.
--

The truth about BeOS

[Duck0987]

Honestly I believe that apple not releasing specs is a total lie on Be's part they don't want to take the time and money to continue developing BeOS for the PPC as it is too small of a market and they are already struggling to support all the video and nic cards on the x86. The myth about Be not running on G3/G4 chips is compleately untrue. I have a Mac 7500 with a XLR8 g4-350 mhz upgrade card and it runs BeOS 4.5 with no problem what so ever.

Be was just looking for an excuse to end support for ppc platform and it looks like they have found it.

Embedded Chip Support

[pjrc]

I've been considering starting a project to make a low-cost linux-based single-board computer, perhaps similar to the uCsimm, now sold by Lineo. Some time ago, the uCsimm sounded really exciting, but the price is now $300 for a slow CPU (people report 25-50 kbytes/sec ftp throughput), and that runs uClinux instead of the "real" linux. I don't want to spread FUD about uClinux, it's a great effort, but the fact is that it lacks fork, larger executables, protected memory, and both drivers and userland applications need to be ported. Still, I've got my eye on the Motorola Coldfire chip (runs uClinux), but....

It'd sure be cool to make a low-cost board that could run the real linux, with real memory management (MMU), and a pretty speedy CPU. By low cost, I'm thinking able to sell at $120-$150 for board where you add a SDRAM DIMM and use a network bootstrap or add compact flash card for a local boot. So far, it's looking like the available PPC based off-the-shelf boards are quite expensive. I probably ought to do a bit more homework, but since you're here, my question is....

What are the propects for making a really low cost PPC-based embedded linux computer? Has anyone done it or tried? Is it even possible?

Mouse

[blakestah]

Where can I get an off the shelf G4 PPC linux box with a real mouse ?

Re:Mouse

[blinko]

uh.. At a pet store that sells computers.

Or you could try a Logitec three button USB mouse on a G4, but you'll have to instal Linux yourself.

--

Re:Mouse

[chrischow]

have a look in yellow pages for shops that sell computers and pets

Re:Mouse

[Sloppy]

Where can I get an off the shelf G4 PPC linux box with a real mouse ?

Just about any computer store, that sells Apple stuff, will have G4 Macintoshes and a variety of mice. Try CompUSA for retail, or any of a number of online stores.

The only catch is that you will have to pay for more than you want: the Mac will come with both an OS and a mouse that you will end up not using. But, in the end, you'll have a very nice machine that does what you want, even if the price is a bit inflated by the unwanted extras.

---

IBM and PowerPC

[IYagami]

What do you think about IBM's efforts for suporting Linux? What do you think they should do in order to make LinuxPPC a better platform? Making better gcc for PowerPC? A better kernel? Do you think that they are more interested in x86 platform?

Safest car on the road

[Xenophon Fenderson,]

When I'm out crusing in my '74 Caddy (driving at least 15 miles-an-hour under the speed limit), I am almost crushed by the immensity of protection that solid American steel and fine Detroit automotive craftsmanship provide.

Rev. Dr. Xenophon Fenderson, the Carbon(d)ated, KSC, DEATH, SubGenius, mhm21x16

Re:Safest car on the road

[Petrophile]

That '74 Cad is one the few vehicles on the road with REAL 5 mph bumpers. (Meaning you could hit a wall at 5 mph without any damage to your car or yourself.) There's also big giant IBeams inside the doors for added safety.

Of course, those bumpers also are ugly as shit. '74s were also the first year with both emission controls and fuel economy restrictions. Because of this I highly recommend a '69 to '72 Caddy for your left lane crusing, with either the 472 or the 500 engine suitable for this use or for blowing various wannabe sportscars off of stoplights.

LinuxPPC, Mac's, and ROM's

[tech81]

While I'm not too awful new to Linux, I'm a long time Windows and Macintosh user. . .and I'm wondering, what kinds of hurdles has the Macintosh ROM posed for you in the development process?

Re:Drunk Drivers (goint further OT)

[methodic]

Thats an aweful attitude to have in life. I know Im not the happiest person, or the richest person, but I try to do things to make what I have that much better. Drowing yourself in smoke and booze does nothing except make the problems disappear for a few hours, but once you become sober again, you realize you cant escape them with chemicals. I guess youre one of the millions of people who need to have something done DIRECTLY to them to see the _true_ dangers and risks. That is unfortunate.

Will RS/6000s get the same attention that Macs do?

[Saltine Cracker]

Greetings.
Will LinuxPPC provide more support for RS/6Ks in the future? Bootable media would be a neat feature as well as simpler partitioning, and better device detection! The story leading up to my question is below -

I recently started working with LinuxPPC on a couple of RS/6000s my last company had (while I was still with them). I really had a lot of trouble getting the distro to install. One part included hand configuring the frame buffer device so that the graphical install would run. Another involved having to set the partitions with out any real knowledge of what was required (like a PReP boot partition). Lastly I encountered needing a updated kernel for the installation boot disk, which was provided by someone outside of linuxppc.org. In all it was a grand fun time, but the difficulties were tough to get over.

Thanks!

Re:SUVs R too big and 2 stupid

[delorean]

These soccer mom's who can't drive and don't know how to use mirrors are a menace. So are soccer dads.

There is some protection in big rigs, but there is always going to be something bigger on the road-- hello, the eighteen-wheelers? Just say no to Big Motor Companies, and to Big Oil, let's try to conserve a little fuel here.

My 81 DeLorean is extremely safe. And Sporty. And durable-- hello, it's an 81! And it drives like an 01.

My biggest concern is these maroons in big trucks who don't look or signal before changing lanes.

I drive defensively, always watching my mirrors, always watching for blinkers. I was the same way on my a cycle, but now I've got my ultimate vehicle.

And I get 20 MPG when I drive like Andretti!

Linux on IBM RS/6000

[mrdisco99]

Much of the conversations about Linux-PPC seem to be about running it on Apple hardware. What about IBM RISC machines? I know a number of RS/6000 models are able to run it, and IBM has promised extending that to cover the entire RS/6000 (or pSeries) family. What do you know about when that promise might be a reality?

Also, very little older RS/6000 hardware seems to be able to run Linux (i.e. no MCA machines and only a few PCI machines). Is there much development being done to bring those machines into the fold? There are a lot of older RS/6000's out there, and they would be a perfect target for an OS like Linux, since AIX would probably be too expensive for someone with one of those. How close are we to getting more of those machines running Linux-PPC?

+++

Why should my next purchase be a PowerPC?

[rjh]

Intel hardware is a commodity; it's cheap, there are lots of peripherals for it, you can buy individual components and build your own box easily, and prices are very low.

AFAIK (which isn't far), PowerPC hardware is mostly proprietary, controlled by Apple, is more expensive, has less variety in peripherals, and you're more or less stuck buying a Macintosh just to get your PC. Not just that, but many components of many PowerPC-based computers have marginal to no support under Linux (USB is marginal, Firewire is nonexistent right now, etc).

Given all this, where is the major win in the PowerPC? Why ought my next purchase for a PC be a PowerPC running LinuxPPC/Yellow Dog/MkLinux?

I'm not trolling here; I'm just uneducated. :) Educate me.

Re:Why should my next purchase be a PowerPC?

[chainsaw1]

It's been awhile, but let me see if I can help enlighten you...

If you are looking for Linux only and have no need for MacOS compatability or native support for the PowerPC's CPU instruction set (also found in the many objects that use PowerPC embedded processors) then there probably is not much reason for you to.

Apple PowerPC's are expensive comparaing hardware to hardware with a BTO i386 option. However, IBM has released a free mobo spec for other companies to make a PowerPC computer with, and they could probably compete with the hardware prices for an i386. The Motorola PowerWave and the BeOS boxes are PowerPC computers that can run LinuxPPC, but are not Macs.

The Mac costs more because:

a) it's Apple branded
b) it includes all hardware certified to run under just about every version of MacOS
c) Much of the whole computer include things that many other computers (except Dell, Compaq, etc. BTO workstations) will not, such as a NIC, video, sound input/output, and firewire. These options are on board (except Video, which is AGP) and not removable.
d) It includes ROMs (or something to point to a ROM file on the HD) and a Forth BIOS (OpenFirmware). Apple puts R&D into these items and passes the cost on to you by marking up their computers.

The hardware Apple uses is not all propriaterary. Macs use IDE same as other computers, and other drivers for other parts can be obtained by looking at the chips inside the mac. the PCI bus is PCI standard, and the cards are mostly the same as you would find for PC's (with some exceptions). Most of the propritariness comes in the BIOS drivers (though OpenFirmware is based on Forth, which is fairly open. I think it was started by Sun Microsystems) and the ROM initilization items. these items are mostly needed for the MacOS to operate properly.

LinuxPPC for me has been every bit as stable as the RTHL I have on my AMD computer at home. Plus the devices are mostly the same. Serial ports still show up at /dev/ttySX, etc. In fact, most programs that are source code distributed can be recompiled under LinuxPPC easily. There are issues sometimes with machine-code optimized programs or things that may get muddled by the big-endian PowerPC vs little-endian i386, but I have not seen many in my experience.

You can run NFS, ssh, etc. between LinuxPPC and Linux i386 systems same as any other. It is truly the same OS on top, just _some_ of the hardware underneath is a bit different.

One of the many reasons I like running LinuxPPC on my Mac because it lets me use hardware that the MacOS won't let me because it came in a PC box. I have a NE2000 and a DEC chip 21040 NICs in my StarMax. The only times I have a problem is with video cards because the primary video card must be recognizable by OpenFirmware so the display can come up at boot.

How do you think OSX will affect your userbase?

[Jamuraa]

Do you think that OSX's imminent release, and betas, have drawn away from the crowd that uses LinuxPPC, or will it eventually add to the userbase because of people getting a taste of *NIX within OSX and wanting more?

Re:Drunk Drivers (goint further OT)

[Hallow]

As evidenced by George Burns, you can still have your fun and live to old age too. The key is....... dadaDA! MODERATION. He had a martini,
a cigar, and legend has it... a woman, every day until the day he died (at 100).

A glass of wine with dinner, or a couple beers while watching a game. Maybe a regular afternoon martini. A puff or two from a cigar, pipe, or cigarette, even a chew.

These things only become a problem when you
1) have bad genetics to begin with or
2) you move from moderation to excess and extreme addiction or
3) you use them as an excuse to engage in poor behavior (drunk driving, abuse, etc., typically
only related to alcohol)

Re:Moralizing buttheads!

[XyouthX]

I am not moralizing. I don't consider it my business what other people do to themselves.
I am just stating that i believe alot (esp. young people) don't consider the consequences.
I try hard to avoid preaching when it comes to these issues as i consider them to be highly personal.
It's just not for me.

cool

[twitter]

I recomend burbon, early morning, and no seat belt. Try not to hurt anyone nice when you die, looser.

IMPORTANT POINT re: Jason's Honda

[alexburke]

Just to clear something up, Jason's car was a Honda Accordion.

--

Re:IMPORTANT POINT re: Jason's Honda

[alexburke]

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. I drive an Accord myself.)

Oh, and YES, I know it was a Civic. Emphasize was. Now it's an Accordion, no matter what the badge says. :)

--

3rd Party PPC Hardware?

[DoenerMord]

While LinuxPPC may be great for Mac users wanting to dangle their toes in the Linux world, the higher price of Apple's hardware is tough for many x86 users to swallow. Is the LinuxPPC group working with any companies to develop a lower-cost motherboard/machine setup based on IBM's open PowerPC specs? Or is the goal to make LinuxPPC such compelling server solution that x86 users won't mind paying the extra bucks to squeeze a few Cubes onto a rack? I realize a 3rd party PPC setup would only cater to a very small group, but is anyone working on using IBM's design at all?

Drunk Driving laws

[AntiNorm]

He's also majorly anti-drunk driving these days, because last March a drunk driver ran into his car and left it looking like this.

Being that you have been personally involved with drunk driving like this, what is your take on the current status of drunk driving laws? What kind of penalties would you like to see implemented for drunk drivers?

---
Put your feet out and stop ... climb out and hang ...

Support during recovery

[chancycat]

Jason,

After reading your wife's diary of your recovery (first 8-10 weeks or so) I was amazed at her dedication to reporting your progress. I'm sure you have read those logs as well and I am curious as to your thoughts. Do you remember much if any of those early weeks? Do you have any insights into how helpful the therapists were in prodding you toward your recovery?
Evan

Not quite true

[Ethelred Unraed]

Presently, it's either Apple or nobody. There were shining hopes for something better, but it never appeared.

Actually, there are many non-Apple PPC computers that run Linux (though admittedly *new* non-Apple PPC hardware is hard to come by).

For example, there's the RS/6000 IBM boxes, BeBoxes, Amiga APUS, and Motorola and Bull boxes. And, of course, TiVo and other embedded platforms.

Check out http://www.linuxppc.com/about/hardware/ for a complete list of supported hardware.

Still, the OpenPPC.org bit has been a bitter disappointment so far. Ah well, keep your fingers and toes crossed...

HTH

Ethelred

SUVs vs. real transportation

[TheGeek]

I drive a '94 Ford Aspire, which is #8 of the "Worst cars to be in during an accident". I think it got there because of the ridiculous number of SUVs on the road with their higher bumpers. Given that my car is dead cheap on gas and gets me around just as fast as a 5xCost SUV, and that SUVs are being blamed for many of the worst road fatalities on roads today, what do you think we as smarter car drivers could do to convince manufacturers and gov't officials that vehicles such as SUVs aren't worth keeping around?

TheGeek

Re:SUVs vs. real transportation

[Archangel Michael]

I am 6'5" and nearly 300 lbs (NFL lineman size), and I don't fit into your nice little POS 2 door Spec, or any other compact, sub compact car. If you do away with larger cars (and SUV's) because they are "unfair" in crashes, then I am relegated to using cars that dangerous for me to be in. Crash tests are done only on "average" (read under 5' 11", 150lb) dummies (hehe). I would love to see how taller larger people like me do in car crashes.

Re:SUVs vs. real transportation

[Lord Kano]

Convice the car makers to make your little cars safer. I'm not giving up my SUV. When I'm ready for a new vehicle, it'll be a new SUV.

I live in Pittsburgh, I drove a two wheel drive sports car and in the snow it's impossible to drive effectively.

You "ban the SUVs" people would probably prohibit big penises if you could. It's not fair that someone else has something bigger and less fuel efficient than you.

LK

Re:SUVs vs. real transportation

[TheGeek]

For the record, I don't have anything against larger cars. Just SUVs, and even that only in the city. I grew up on a mountain ranch before moving to a city of 2 million people so I can understand the utility of larger vehicles.

HOWEVER...even at your size, there is no reason to be running around in a vehicle that can carry 6 people of equal size.

AND...These smaller cars are mostly considered unsafe because of the results of the accidents they get in, against larger vehicles. Sure, they could be made safer, and should be. But small car vs. small car is a much different story than small car vs. SUV.

AND...on the tree-hugging environmental side...I fill up for less, go farther for the gas I buy, pollute less.

TheGeek

Change in Priority?

[gte910h]

Jason,
Since your accident, what have you noticed as far as a change in your priorities goes? I am curious with respect to your "real job" versus private research interests (e.g. PPCLinux) versus your family versus the things that you have been putting off in your life. What other changes have you seen in yourself as far as attitudes towards what sucess really is, and what you want to do with the rest of your life?

More Scalable? HEH!

[cjsnell]

Linux is more scalable than BSD? Please, support this argument. First, define scalability. Next, describe how Linux is more scalable than *BSD.

Darwin & NetBSD influences on LinuxPPC?

[namespan]

While many people view the presence of different OS's as a fight to the death with only one winner (and while this often happens), it's obvious that they sometimes influence one anothers design. In the open source world, I sometimes expect this to happen to a greater extent, since the ideas and code are shared freely. I'm curious to know if you've played tried Darwin and NetBSD, and what you think about them. Anything cool about them LinuxPPC doesn't have? Any directions they're taking you think will influence LinuxPPC? And you could answer the same questions for the other PPC Linux distros....

--

How do you feel towards the driver?

[mrRaist-]

Jason,

Congrats on your recovery! I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been for you and your wife.

My question to you is this: How do you feel towards the driver? Do you have a great malice towards him? Would you do the same thing to him as he did to you so he could know first hand what you went through? Or, on the other end of the spectrum, do you forgive him? Do you realize that he made a terrible mistake by getting behind the wheel and driving drunk and that he will be punished by the law, which while it can't equal the physical pain that you've gone through, he will be locked away from society. Or, do you forgive him completely?

All the best!

Brad

Precious hours of relief

[Peter Dyck]

And those few hours are exactly what I'm looking for. My attitude isn't 'I want to die' or 'I want to live' but 'If I die in the next second, what will I care?' So I take risks, and I have a reckless attitude about death. It shows in the way I live my life, my driving, scaling buildings, leaning off of cliffs, etc. I don't want to die, but if I did it wouldn't really bother me.

What I want is a few hours of relief from the existence into which we are born, in we are educated, work our fingers to the bone earning money and then snuff it. All of us. We all die sooner or later, so why do we spend so much effort on the intervening steps? It is because the human mind is unable to consider the fact that it is all futile, that we are wasting our time, that there is no purpose to existence.

So, why live? No reason whatsoever. Except that we lack the courage to finish that which is worthless. We are frightened of death- but why? There is no reason.

Most days I can forget that there's no purpose to life and enjoy whatever I'm doing. But every so often that big black cloud sort of sneaks up on me and pins me down. That's when I crawl over to angst IRC channels to whimper for a while, and flame the shit out of whining but well meaning college boys and girls who believe "that cherished myth - that falling in love magically solves every problem you're ever had." (Jello Biafra, "Mate, Spawn and Die" an excellent albeit temporary cure for depression.)

Then I go home and have a drink or smoke a joint and I'll get my break from the reality.

I know perfectly well that I am poisoning myself with alcohol and smoke, but hell, nowadays you can get cancer from breathing air and a brain-rotting disease from eating meat. I choose to drink alcohol because it makes me feel good. I eat meat because I like it. I smoke because I want to.

You're free to live as you like as long as you don't bother me too much. I just wish you would stop insulting me by suggesting that I would not have chosen to do this if I had had a full knowledge of the potential outcome. I have seen the true risks and know that I'll probably have a similar fate as my uncle. I have no problem with it; why should you?

Re:Precious hours of relief

[jidar]

Heh. Congratulations, thats exactly what I thought you PEOPLE were doing. It's sad and sorry from here.

Re:Precious hours of relief

[afc]

Pardon my French, but being blasé is so passé ...
--

Pre-accident values (Drunk Driving Penalties)

[darkonc]

It's quite understandable that, after the accident you are now strongly anti drunk driving. I'm interested in the contrast:

What was your attitude towards drunk driving (and minitanks) before the accident?
--

Gratitude

[coolgeek]

I can only imagine surviving a near-death experience like this causes a great change in perspective. What are a few of the things you used to take for granted that you are really grateful for now?

(OT) Re:SUVs vs. real transportation

[Raunchola]

"I drive a '94 Ford Aspire, which is #8 of the 'Worst cars to be in during an accident'. I think it got there because of the ridiculous number of SUVs on the road with their higher bumpers."

Gee, maybe its' ranking is because the Aspire is a sardine can on wheels? Any car as small as that will be reduced to scrap metal in an accident, regardless of what hits it (SUV, pickup truck, mid-size family car, hazmat, etc).

Here's my opinion for you...get something that isn't mistaken for Ringling Bros. property.

And for the record, no, I don't own a SUV, I own a VW Jetta. Neener.

--

Re:Don't bother

[darkonc]

The question isn't that far off the pale. There are a Lot of people who actually think like that. It's like the 'bigger gun' syndrome: If you don't like people running around with guns, get a bigger one, and then you'll be safe.

It only makes sense if you don't consider the possibility of your approach becomming the standard. When that happens, it's actually worse than the original situation, because now you've still got accidents with same-sized vehicles -- it's just that they're now bigger, heavier and less responsive. If you add pollution snf global warming effects to that, it starts to look like a really bad idea.

Unfortunately, most of the people who drive minitanks don't think that far past the PR output of your local car dealership.
--

LinuxPPC vs OSX

[lemonlime]

Do you think that once OSX arrives on the scene with a UNIX ¥or UNIX-like environment LinuxPPC will suffer any loss of users?
--
Cognosco: To examine, enquire, learn

Memory Loss and Re-Learning?

[gavinroy]

I followed your story closely, I don't know quite why, really, other than it struck a chord with me I guess. From what I remember you came out of it with little memory from before the accident. What was it like coming back into the Linux fold, did you have to re-learn or did it all come back? What did you think about Linux (if you did) when you couldn't remember what it was?

Commercial support for PPC

[tolldog]

Do you see companies supporting the PPC Linux any time soon?
I see companies with Linux software ignoring the Apple boxen and only supporting those with Intel (and possibly AMD, if they are a cool company).

I know that Alias is porting (has ported?) Maya to the Mac (for OSX I think...). Seeing that they have ported (beta) for Linux on x86 I would expect talk for a LinuxPPC port.

Maybe it is just because of the lack of demand. I guess what I want this question to boil down to is:

Do you see the LinuxPPC solution as being worth a company's time to port code for and to support with OSX and x86 solutions being more common?

Where LinuxPPC is going

[jrockway]

LinuxPPC has a graphical installer (a generally new idea). How about actually making Linux boot up graphically (as in no text). I'm willing to try to implement this if there is interest (framebuffer, Qt/Embedded,etc sounds FUN!). I personally think Linux booting graphically and the X starting would be COOL!

PPC the next great platform?

[GiMP]

I aquired a G3 Pismo Powerbook from Apple in August, my best purchasing decision ever. I love the thing, as long as it runs linux that is. The OS9 on it via default was terrible, at least for my needs. I put debian-ppc on there, yaboot is setup and I have it working dualboot for those who say it cannot be done.

The highly superior quality of the Apple hardware, and the excellent linux compatability (no win-devices) made me, and others very happy customers.. but would you for any reason, recommend purchasing a PPC _desktop_ machine for use with linux? Does PPC offer the enduser/developer anything that x86 doesn't other then an affordable platform to test big endian code on?

I as others must feel, am sorry for your situation.. I hope you recover 110%.

BTW: Do you still think you work for Microsoft? :)

Modifying GNOME/KDE for easing MacOS transition

[Ukab the Great]

Several linux distributions (such as Corel, Redmond Linux, MaxOS, Caldera,just to name a few) try to keep their UI's consistent with that of Windows. Even much of GNOME follows much of the windows pattern (same keyboard accelerators and windows, same menu item labels, etc) for the sake of easy transition from Windows. As someone who went from MacOS to Linux, windows UI layouts such as the Ok Button being on the left and selecting "Exit" to quit applications just doesn't quite feel right. Has LinuxPPC ever considered modifying GNOME or KDE to better ease the transition for mac users? Has there been any talk of releasing some sort of "Cupertino Linux"?

Where's the beef?

[Svartalf]

On your site and on the news items about LinuxPPC-2000 Q4, you say that the ISO is available for the full install CD and that it's available through any of your mirror sites. I have yet to find anything other than images dated as late as August on any sites. What gives?

LinuxPPC on Amiga APUS?

[NoseyNick]

A lot of Amiga users are looking for a path to "upgrade" to Linux. None of them are particularly happy about it, but it's seen as "the only other vaguely-sensible alternative OS out there", for a bunch of people who don't want to go anywhere near Windoze, and (often) preferably nowhere near Intel architechture either.

At the moment, there are pretty much 2 realistic alternatives... 68k linux for those who were still using 68k Amigas, or "Linux APUS" for those with PPC-based Amigas.

Is LinuxPPC just for Macs? How seriously do you treat other PPC-based machines?

Can you read?

[FatSean]

Looks like you've had a bit too much caffine already buddy. My post wasn't about physical impairment, it was about the mental state reached when a person has had a lot of caffine. Irritable, argument prone, aggressive. Do you think a person in this state of mind is more likely, or less likely, to lose their shit after they get cut off on the freeway?

Power use

[Sloppy]

The main tangible advantage you get with a PowerPC over x86 is the lower power use, resulting in less heat and noise. Recent Macs don't even bother with a single fan at all. Going by noise and electric bill, an iMac or one of those new cubes, would make a much better server (or any other 24x7 application) than my Athlon box, which I think has a total of 7 (?!) fans and guzzles electrons like there's no tomorrow.

Another tangible (but very specialized) advantage of PowerPC would be the vector processor in the G4. If you do something that can use this, it might tip the scales in favor of PowerPC.

Then there are the intangible benefits, mainly involving the relative elegance of PowerPC compared to x86. This is probably not a significant factor for non-geeks, though, and the pragmatic and unromantic can safely ignore it.

---

Adding linuxPPC user support.

[slashbrent]

I have been using linuxPPC for over a year now, and have been extremely pleased with the experience. The only problem i ever seem to encounter in regards to this particular linux distrobution is the lack of support information.

Our newsgroup (comp.os.linux.powerpc) is rarely helpful, and there is no up-to-date documentation that i have found.

My question to you is, What can i as a linuxPPC user do to help you create and/or maintain documentation for new users and users with problems?

I realize that a user could create a html file on how to setup a specific service (Apache, say) and email it to you, but my question also pertains to the larger issue of having no mechanism for users to utilize. For example, i have found the Solutions Database at redhat.com to be incredibly useful when problems arise on my 6.2 system.

I would be more than willing to create a similar Perl/pgsql/php forum/messageboard for others users such as myself, but i do not know if your company have any interest in letting the user community tackle this issue... What can we do to mobilize our PPC forces and continue to advance the linuxPPC distro through usefull documentation?

floating point performance?

[twitter]

I'm glad people are interested in this.

I've heard that x86 floating point math is sloppy at best, but does it make a real difference? Can a PPC compete despite the clock speed advantage of the x86s? Some real world examples would be nice, thanks.

Microkernels and Hurd.

[Irvu]

Having spent some frustrating time working with MkLinux I'm curious what your view of the Mach Microkernel is as a subsystem and, by extension what you think of OSX and the Hurd project as architectures based upon that.

Business model and difficulties ...

[xim]

Hi,

1) LinuxPPC seems to get revenues only from the sales of CDs. Don't you think it should be better to focus on services (as YellowDog do)? Why? Do you focus on the workstation or the server market? Could you define your target customer?

2) Do you think that things could be easier if LinuxPPC was bought by RedHat, MandrakeSoft or IBM? Why?

3) Do you find it tough to have customers who have "Mac-like" expectations? I'll explain myself. Quite often you can see in the linuxppc-user mailing list posts like: "LinuxPPC sucks! I've been struggling for 3 days with that [expletive deleted] OS. I'm gonna switch to MacOS X!". Of course, a lot of things make the installation of Linux on the PowerPC much more difficult than on Intel: Apple constantly change the platform (OldWorld->NewWorld ROM, ADB->USB, no floppy, incompatible disk drivers, etc ...). For each new machine, Ben H. and friends have to hack a lot to make the kernel work again. Maintaining the PowerPC port is probably much more work than any other Linux port (Alpha, Sparc, etc ..). But newbies doesn't want to know about that ...

4) It's a technical one, but why "root" is having his home directory in /home/root? Every other distributions put it in /root ... And why the installer (last time I cheked) doesn't partition in the standard way (/, /usr, /var, /home)?

I would like to thank you and your team for your work. I am using LinuxPPC for 2 years and a half, and although I'll never buy Apple hardware for myself again, I've appreciate the work done for the platform.

Cheers

Re:Math intensive server stuff - libm

[iggie]

Another question related to math-intensive computation. While doing performance comparisons between G3s/LinuxPPC and SGI/Irix, I noticed about a 2x performance improvement by linking against Motorola's libmoto math library on G3/LinuxPPC. I know that MacOS' math library is now on par with libmoto performance-wise. What is the status of LinuxPPC and libm? Is anyone working on this? How is Darwin's libm? Back in the day, I remember that a 350 MHz G3 was on-par with SGI Octanes for doing FFT-type claculations on very large (many hundreds MB) datasets. They were also about as fast as 750 MHz K7 - even though the K7 had nominally larger RAM throughput, and was about a year and a half newer machine than the G3.

LinuxPPC / i386 RedHat speeds

[protoss]

I run a LinuxPPC server with a few small PHP/MySQL sites on it, and it's performed admirably for about a year now. Lately I've gotten more into YellowDog Linux on the PPC platform, as it seems more geared toward serverhood, and it ships with a nice set of bundled software. There are two Linux boxes on my desk- a G4 450, 256mb running YellowDog, and a Dell PIII 500, 256mb running RedHat 6.0. Given Apple's claims, a 450MHz G4 should lay waste to a 500MHz PIII, especially in floating point operations. I got curious about the speed payoff under Linux, and tried encoding an MP3 from a WAV on both machines, using bladeenc and lame (compiled from source on both). With both encoders, the PIII beat the PPC by a small margin. Generally it would encode the MP3s in about 95% of the PPC's time. I realize this is a very incomplete benchtest, but frankly I was expecting the PPC to perform at least a little better than the Pentium. I'm not sure what is to blame for this... whether it be the encoders' source, yellow dog linux, the kernel, the compiler.... has anyone else tried similar benchtests? I wish the PPC had made a better showing, as its RISC architecture is just much more elegant.

Re:i agree...

[protoss]

i third.

Don't Mind That...

[IanCarlson]

I don't care if his PowerPC fell through a time warp and he purchased it eight years ago. The important part is that it's been up for the better part of a year.

;)

Thanks for the information though, I was wondering when the first Apple PowerPC boxen came out, and now I know. Do you recommend any place in particular for purchasing old Apple PPC hardware?