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XBox Screenshot Flim-Flammery?
X_Bones points to discussion on ign.com, saying: "There's been some amount of talk recently about XBox screenshots being touched up using Photoshop. Apparently a game character was pasted on the scene background and a stock Photoshop lens flare was added (which looks like it centers on the eyewear frame, and not the lens itself). here(1)'s a comparison between the "original" and a lens flare, and here(2) and here(3) are two more detailed comparisons." While companies have long used visual and verbal exaggerations of their products (glass marbles hold up soup veggies, and fruit glistens with baby oil), implying extra graphics capabilities for what is essentially a graphics box seems a little worse than some advertisng slime-tactics, though this too surely isn't new. The screenshots on the XBox site have been updated, but gamers seem to have long, intense, pixel-specific memories.
Somewhat different situation... A photo of the Cube had been leaked, and analysts found evidence of Photoshop touch-ups on the picture. For some reason, they believed that Apple would never "touch up" a real product picture, and so the picture had to be fake. The picture was real (same picture that showed up on the Apple website), but it was Apple that had done the photoshop work.The question was not whether the image had been Photoshoped (it had), but what significance that fact had.
You mean your Big Macs aren't as juicy and delicious as the ones pictured on the ad? Yours don't come with crisp full pieces of lettuce, tomato and a thick patty of the purest American beef? haha. More like a couple 16th of an ounce patties that are actually 1/24th of an ounce combined after cooking and some shredded wilting green crap they call lettuce.
Stop reading /. for news and discussion, read for amusement.
Learn to spot the trolls, too, if you can't already. It's quite entertaining to watch the effects of a good troll as it suckers people in. Almost like one of the currently fashionable 'voyeur' TV programs, 'examining' human nature.
Given that anyone who voted for either Bush or Gore probably is American, I can easily agree.
I have ton of random thoughts.
Maybe its Fraud, yet Dreamcast games use Lens Flare in many of the premier titles.
Many of the outdoor 3d combat games use Lens Flare (such as Soul Calibur), and many outdoor race games such as Sega Extreme Sports, I seem to recall.
Live Lensflare added on top of a 3d scene is simple and is merely an overlay, and is not 3d intensive, It moves interestingly as the camera swivels past the action, but its still not a big deal.
Faking shadows would be far more serious of fraud for XBOX, or faking reflections, translucency, flowing robe animation, flowing hair, course woven cloth etc.
But faking a lens flare is not a big deal because its not a big deal to add in real life and not a massive computation.
Am I shoked that they would resort to fraud? No. Some game console companies in the late 1970s and early 1980s used to have a fake console box on a table but the wires to the demo screen came from special high end hardware hidden in rackmount device under the convention table!
Switching BOXES is the ultimate fraud. And that was done.
Gaming companies are all corrupt. They survive on draconian punishment clauses for publicly discussing terms of distriution.
3D0 (a 602 PPC console) and Apple Pippin (603 PPC) had 3% royalty extrortions of the GROSS, same as the Apple Newton. 3% of the GROSS not NET sales.
And if you did not like it, your media could not ever boot becuase the devices booted encrypted (scrambled technically), media only.
3D0,Pippin, and Newton are all dead. Maybe the 3% had something to do with it.
The TI/994A had a PATENT ON THE CONNECTOR to the game cartridge. A Patent! Just to keep out unlscenced content. Years later in Europe they agreed that you can ignore patents desinged to merely prohibit interoperability, like the TI-994A game connector patent.
The Europeans also allowed that Kodaks disgusting PATENT on a file format was invalid and that people not wanting to spend 100,000 dollars to obtain the PhotoCD fle format manual from Kodak could use the "bootleg" independently reverse engineered PhotoCD code.
Imagine a patent on ASCII files!
The disgusting american DMCA is headed back toward protecting such disgusting things.
Apple had no less than FIVE, count them FIVE fraudulent patents on the PEF container file format header.
Without a PEF header no code can load in Apples newer PowerPC architectures. Creating a PEF header required 5 thousnad dollar liscence from apple.
5 Thousand. Even if you wnat ed to write a shareware or freeware assembler or small c compiler.
5 Thousnad for PEF was so disgusting in turned my stomach the real goal was to make money off EVERY PROGRAM EVER WRITTEN FOR THE MAC. And porno and anti-women content would make you lose the "made for Mac" box art. They also had executive artistic content control over Pippin and Macintosh games.
Eventually After Tom Dowdy (i thinm it was jim) finally wrote a letter to Dr Dobbs, apple stopped charging people 5 thousnad to look at how to make object code loadable on a powermac.
Metrowerks (now Motorola) also had to pay 5 thousand. I asked them.
The XBox will be little different from all other protected content delivery platforms... Encryption, scrambling, violation of CD R-W channels and or 14 bit EFM moduilation, bogus session lead out information, and probably new stuff like track wobble detection to combat CDR at a hardware reading level.
But liscensing and patents will no doubt be a part of the the pay-per-play model.
good flame, now you just need to fix your sig so you can be taken seriously.
I'm impressed!
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
By the way, here's a Random Dreamcast Lens-Flare that still manages to beat the pants off M$'s screenshot.
Posted by VitSoft:
:(
MS monopoly growing now.
Do you accepting it ? ;)
No way, just darkness
They also have a lifetime warranty... check the box.
Put down those eyebrows, Milhouse. And the other one.
--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"
"The sad part is, I'm probably going to have to abandon my argument in the question of Win vs. Mac, that Windows is more configurable." Nothing personal but the "sad part" is that your argument is only between Mac and Windows, who cares about both, run linux and be done with it.
Funny and I thought Perl == Paid employment recently located
The profits, from any purchase of Microsoft software or hardware product, will be utilized to limit my choices in software. I refuse to contribute my money to their war chest.
Deliver, yes. But the technology is HP's, and it was licensed out to Logitech, and Apple, and probably several other companies by now.
As for the wheel, wasn't that Mouse Systems?
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
at any fast food place. Look at the food on the menu then look at the food you get there is a big difference. That is just a picture on what is expected look like let us how well it comes out in the end.
How soon after launch will xBSD or LinuX be available. Since MS will sell the $350 cost machine at $200 we should be in for a treat.
Help fight continental drift.
The point I was trying to make is that everyone shows the best side of the product in an ad - MS, Redhat, whoever - that's advertising.
How sad that this is accepted. One of the critical points for captilalism to work correctly is that the consumer has to be informed and know what the better product for their needs is. Modern day adverstising (and reviews) tell you little about the product in a manner you can use to make an informed purchase. Lies like this X-box show, and I'm sure just about every other advertiser uses, just makes it that much harder for a consumer, who doesn't spend a lot of time in research, to make an informed purchasing decision.
Poor, poor misunderstood Microsoft. Just a bunch of working-class slobs trying to make a buck, and maybe getting a little overeager at times.
Feh. I don't believe it. Here's what happened:
1. They throw something out there. It's a fake, but they don't tell anyone.
2. Someone spots the trickery and cries foul.
3. Microsoft feigns innocence: "OH, we didn't say it was a manufactured demo? Sorry, must have slipped our minds."
And, BTW, I'm not talking about the Xbox here - I'm thinking of what happened with that "demo" videotape during their antitrust trial. Anyone remember that? Anyone see a pattern here? Anyone still trust Microsoft?
--Jim
Ok that Slashdot is too biased e know. That's undoubtful and unforgetable.
But that does not change the fact that M$ is playing dirt. Some people claim that "it's natural" and that "everyone does" and "it's expected" in a game development stage.
Whoever does this is acting quite uethical in relation to its potential consumers. If "everyone" does this then we have a problem in this industry.
But I could accept it... Should I? No! That would be accepting that "butter" can be stamped on every piece of grease with a look near to butter. That would be accepting certain companies to claim their product is made of oranges, lemons ot other fruits. That would be accepting that major corps would "forget" to add the level of conservants in their products.
Yes, it's a piece of software. But M$ sells it to me the same way as Coca-Cola sells me its cans. Why should I accept?
You're not getting the point though. You say that it's fine, and legal, because X-Box will eventually be able to do the things that these screenshots show. However, let's go back to the car example.
Cars will eventually be able to do big loops in the air, as well as even fly about. However, if Chrystler were to show this on their commercials air next month, it would be false advertising, and would be illegal. Until the game can actually do it, they can't advertise that it does.
What Microsoft is actually advertising is a photoshop doctored picture, something which X-Box will never be able to create. Microsoft can legally post a screenshot taken from 20 different X-Box generated screens, but if they add even one photoshop generated scene, it's false advertising.
You gave a car example, where a company could post a prototype picture of a car door , before it was actually developed, and it would not be false advertising. This might be the case, however a declaration must be made that this is actually a made-up image.
You state repetitively that these doctored images are not harming the consumer. I'm not an anti-Microsoft zealot. I'm not blinded by hate towards Microsoft programmers. I don't even believe that consumers are wronged by being shown doctored images from a game system currently in development. I understand that X-Box should be able to do this kind of stuff in the future. The point still remains, however, that they didn't tell us that these images were doctored, leading us to the conclusion that when we buy an X-Box six months from now, the image should look like that. Since it won't be able to run Photoshop filters, it won't look like that, and the consumer gets the shaft.
Ok, now you're just taking things I've said out of context.
The bottom line is that if a company is selling something that can do graphics, and makes a prototype image to demonstrate the power that they intend to put in, they ought to declare it as a prototype. If they do not, consumers will assume it's the real deal, and be wronged because of it.
The sticking point, though, is the following quote from the site: "Yes, these are actual screen shots!" and yes, its probably been done since the days of pacman. But that shouldn't stop us from thowing M$ and co. into the fire should it? ;-)
M@T
'sapientia potestas est'
Its a fair point.
This is just another example of their willingness to go to any length to prop-up and maintain THE IMAGE, no matter what the cost.
They are, above all else, a marketing company albeit a very good one
'sapientia potestas est'
Well, at least I "guesed" correctly, the models were pasted by MS. They confirmed all the screenshots were concept art. To my surprise of course, I initially tought only the "face closeup" picture was fake.
- sigs are for wimps.
They added the "yes these are actual screenshots" after news sites picked up our thread in the IGN forums.
- sigs are for wimps.
The lens flare is not the only problem. The biggest problem is that they pasted much higher high-poly characters on top of real game shots !
The new screenshots show the big difference in character quality.
- sigs are for wimps.
They posted a "clarification" on Friday (no longer there)
xbox.com clarification
Some of the images for Amped released during Gamestock were enhanced to illustrate some features that will be in the final product. While this is a common practice for games so early in development, we apologize for the confusion. No one intended to be deceptive. Everyone was so busy prepping for Gamestock, that we just missed the fact that these were labeled "concept art". Frankly, we're impressed with the skillz of those digital sleuths! Nice work!
I've tried to document this whole thing since we talked about it in the IGN forums in my website.
- sigs are for wimps.
The character was pasted on top of the "real" in game background, that was the worst offense, not the lens flare. The lens flare is just what "caught" our attention initially.
- sigs are for wimps.
Excellent point.
:)
This is not only about MS, but other game companies trying to fool the public. However, MS does make a good example as usual, so this story will hopefully make game developers be more careful in the future.
Either that, or they'll hire more professional "fake screenshot" engineers.
- sigs are for wimps.
I think the lens flare thing is common, but not the "pasting of high poly models" on top of real in-game backgrounds.
The funny thing is, we tought it was only the close up of the boarder that was fake, but it turned out (like many suspected) that all of the screenshots had fake characters in them.
This is like pasting a render of a dinosaur from the Jurassic Park movie on top of a pixelated background from a real game and claiming that's how the game looks.
- sigs are for wimps.
This is insulting, yet extremely funny !!! LOL !
- sigs are for wimps.
... specially MS, is more fun than doing their marketing work for them.
Also, many gaming sites found this newsworthy, so I don't know why you're complaining :
planetgamecube.com
computerandvideogames.com
fgnonline.com
gamers.com
xbox.ign.com
- sigs are for wimps.
Read what site, the one that links the images in my homepage ?!?!? http://sellmic.com
LOL !!!
- sigs are for wimps.
I guess you missed the part where MS admitted *ALL* the shots were "concept art". LOL !
- sigs are for wimps.
The main problem with the shots was that they cut & pasted characters on them. The lens flare was just the thing that caught our attention.
- sigs are for wimps.
Again, the main problem here wasn't the lens flare, but the snowboarder model.
It was a pre-rendered high quality character, that does not look like that in the real game.
- sigs are for wimps.
The final proof, is that xbox.com admitted these images were "concept" art, and not only was the image I picked apart faked, but the others as well.
Now, the only thing you need to do to convince yourself, is to go to xbox.com and see the "new" "real" Amped screenshots, the model looks nothing like the first released images.
- sigs are for wimps.
I think it's a safe assumption that this could be an honest mistake. I guess most of us are just more skeptical when it comes to Microsoft. :)
I'm reminded of the Spanish saying :
"Cria fama y acuestate a dormir."
Sort of means : "Create a reputation and go to sleep".
BTW : The other screenshots, didn't have the horrible edge artifacts with the model, they were somewhat more believeable, yet, they proved to be "concept art" too.
- sigs are for wimps.
I don't know why people are making this McDonald's comparision, this is ridiculous.
There were screenshots released at GameStock, to prove how "powerful" the X-Box is, and how it's games look.
Does McDonald's release tech demos ?
Also, what do you suggest we do ? Just ignore it for the good of MS ?
- sigs are for wimps.
It wasn't one screenshot, it was all of the initial Amped shots that turned out to be "concept art".
- sigs are for wimps.
*sigh*
It doesn't matter what the resolution turns out to be, the character model was a fake, it was rendered in another 3D program.
If you look at the new images, the "real" character model is nowhere near as detailed looking as the one in the first pictures.
- sigs are for wimps.
> Also, its a fucking silly thing anyway. Does anyone out there really think that of all the things the X-Box can't do,real-time lens flares are one of them? Heh heh. How silly is this shit?
They probably can. Initially this is want hinted to us that there was a problem with this picture. However, the main thing was that the character model was pasted on the real game background.
Look at the new screenshots (real ones) and the old ones and compare, there's a BIG difference in poly count/quality of the models.
- sigs are for wimps.
> The doctoring was minimal. They threw a background up behind the character and put a crappy lens flare in. Big fucking deal. Wrong.
They pasted the characters on top of the background. The background is in-game, the character is not.
- sigs are for wimps.
There isn't some sort of "conspiracy", actually, I think the MS team reacted responsibly. We discussed this mess in the IGN forums like midnight/early morning of last Friday. And by late afternoon, xbox.com clarified the whole situation.
The only question is, was it an honest mistake, or a real attempt of deception ?
- sigs are for wimps.
> If that's the case how do you know that the edge issues aren't the result of the players being rendered using a different meathod ?
:)
Because usually, you don't get random white pixels intersecting the background. Also, like I pointed out in my image, there are 3 types of edges. This is very strange, plus the edge around the character is just typical "pasted" image on Photoshop quality.
Notice also, that there are white pixels, even when the intersection of colors does not contain any white (trees and face).
This type of problem, could have been a bug, but coupled with the obvious fake lens flare, and the apparent resolution differences between the character and the background, it's obvious it's pasted on.
Anyways, it doesn't matter if I proved it completely or not, MS admitted those characters were added to the backgrounds.
- sigs are for wimps.
Does this really surprise anybody? This is the same company that submitted doctored videos as evidence in court.
As a corporation, they have absolutely no conscience. I'm sure there are some good, honest people working for MS, but I don't know how they can do it. I guess they must truly believe the propaganda.
I agree for the most part, but I think the whole point was, why doctor it if it can do it already. So if they had to doctor it some people are probably thinking that the xbox can't do it.
The only thing I would say to that is you are probably right for the most part. But, if you had a vision for a game, and it was not complete, would you modify the graphics to represent what you think the finished product would look like, or would you just post an image from the incomplete product?
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
Man, I have been a reader for the longest of times, and this just depresses me. They should change their logo to read "Rage against Microsoft. Any chance we get." Here we get game related news like this, when no one posted the fact that the president of Sega, one of THE gaming companies of the 80's and 90's, passed away last week, something that made every other EMU, game site, and some news organizations. This is dumb. Advertising has been doing this for the longest time! How many magazines have we seen that have had someone air brushed in some way?! Hell, that Microsoft/Borg icon Slashdot uses was probably touched up in some way, how about a four image document on how that was done! Plus, it is just retarded. Do you really believe that a lens flare is a huge deal, something that my original Voodoo would do with Wing Commander?! Get a life.
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
> How about if we all just agree than anyone who voted for either Bush or Gore is an idiot, and just be done with it?
.sig, my gripe is against the judicial coup, not against the fact that Gore lost.
I could go along with that. After all, I didn't vote for either one of them.
Contrary to what all the freepers assume about my
People of every political alignment should consider the implications of what happened. It might be the Democrats that 0wn the state where the next close count occurs. Certifying a dubious count and obstructing attempts to correct it will be every bit as (im)proper then as it was this time around. What goes around has a nasty habit of coming around, too.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
What do you expect from a company that fakes their computer displays for courtroom evidence?
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Trolls like you are the biggest argument for censorship I've ever seen. So pull that right wing stick out of your ass and go to college, where you might actually learn something about software and figure out microsoft sucks... Or are you so weak minded that you'll avoid college because you don't want to be "brainwashed" by liberals. Go fuck yourself.
-Splat
Just because you think it's "wrong" doesn't mean that nobody else does it, or that it isn't standard industry practice. I think that people just make the assumption that since it's Microsoft it must be wrong. I say, if it's Microsoft and it's crap then it must be wrong. Otherwise, forget it.
I don't think you can accuse Microsoft of unfairly asserting a monopoly when it comes to the game console business. Sony and Nintendo are big enough to take care of themselves.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
Try purchasing a supermarket tabloid for sheer
entertainment value. Trust me, it's worth it.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
We can't be too careful, although this is good investigative work if it turns out to be true, remember the pics of the Imac cube? Everyone analyzed those pics and said that Photoshop was used to create them, how the shadows didn't line up, etc. But, they were the same exact pics that Apple released later on. We'll just have to wait and see, although it does seem to look true now, we'll just have to wait and find out.
See, e.g., the comments of the author of the Linux joystick driver.
Or look at the source code for the driver... nice comments in there.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Yes! The larger issue is that "official strategy guides" are nothing more than a way to squeeze extra money out of suckers. Just like expansion packs, gold editions, the belated "speech pack" phenomenon, and hell, even most sequels.
George Broussard's position is disgusting to me, but not so much because he is stepping on the free speech of third party "strategy guide" publishers. It's offensive that he wants to milk every last dollar out of his users. Obviously the game and documentation will be designed in such a way that you need the official guide to get the most out of it. That's why he wants 100% of the guide market.
I think one of the big deal about MS-Xbox doing it is that they have hyped it up so much you'd think it could do lens flares in real time. I mean I believed that too
It can do lens-flares in real time -- check out http://gamershq.madonion.com for their 3D Mark 2001 benchmark app, which will give you some feeling as to what the XBox will do.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Main problem here is perception, MS has been caught in the past doctoring screenshots and demonstrations. Remember a certain video in a certain anti-trust trial? So someone calling them on what may be faked is not far fetched or a surprise given that they did something similar in a court of law as submitted evidence.
this space for rent
While I admit that this is rather interesting evidence, and I'm no fan of M$, when the apple powermac g4 cube was first rumored at, at least one website offered evidence that it was faked in photoshop (note that they have since removed their photoshop analyzation of the images of the cube). If apple users (notably image experts) can't really figure out if an image is faked, how can we expect others to?
I agree with you for the most part, except here:
a) go see the thing demoed somewhere when it comes out
b) don't buy it.
Simple, ne?
Not quite this simple. Making the XBOX appear better than it is (whether this actually happened or not) might make people less interested in PS2. This would be akin to saying the next version of NT will have a bunch of features, just to prevent people from investing in Linux, Solaris, etc. This is why vaporware sucks.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
I'm reading a lot of comments along the lines of 'This is common. Why make such a fuss, just because its Microsoft.' I find this irritating. Even if deceptive practices are common doesn't make them justified. I've also read a few about the Microsoft retraction and 'apology'. Just because they apologized and said it was a mistake doesn't mean it really was a mistake. Certainly MS has been less than truthful in the past, and simply put, its just not possible public-relations wise for them to admit culpability if it had been intentional. Sadly, few in the world today are willing to accept culpability for anything, prefering intead to shout their innocence repeatedly in the face of any and all opposing evidence hoping perhaps that repitition will take the place of truth.
If Microsoft indeed did this intentionally, I see no problem with Slashdot reporting on it. Just because an evil is common, we should not learn to ignore it, not cease to report on it. If you stop bothering to care about the wrongs done to others, you will have no one to help you when the wrong is done to you.
I have personal experience that makes me distrust and occasionally loathe Microsoft. Certainly I think many others here do. Microsoft is essetially Slashdot's de facto nemisis. So don't get pissed when Slashdot posts something derogatory about M$. Call them on it if you think they are exaggerting the facts, as Slashdot has done to Microsoft, especially if you feel its intentional, but otherwise cope.
Or alternatively you could give the slash code to MS and see how popular they can make dotslash.org.
(Actually, they'd probably just populate it with neural net bots trained from reading slashdot posts but with a rule to transpose words like linux and microsoft).
Jherico
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
Actually, from what I understand, the X-Box is essentially a fast PC with a custom graphics chip, and the API for using it is DirectX. Given that, the X Box never had to have gone through the stage of cards and wires in a scattered mess. At worst, it probably was a customized motherboard in a standard ATX case.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
Slow down there cowboy. I'll grant you that Visual Studio is the best IDE interface I've ever worked with, but then again, I've only worked with a few, and I'm sure someone who had been weaned on X (that's X windows, not X box) interface conventions might have something to say about that. Regardless, the actual engine behind VC++ and a lot of the supplementary tools are shit. I used to think they were great too, but then I actually learned to code in C++ as opposed to C and tried a few things out there on the edge.
Template support is buggy, as are the actual template include files provided with the compiler. Check out www.dinkum.com for detailed information on that, but suffice to say that MS's templates are essentially incompatible with templatized object crossing DLL boundaries (because they use statics in the template definitions, if you must know). Turn on warning level 4 sometime in VC++ and watch all the warnings that MS's own headers generate, because they're doing stupid things.
The compiler is also fairly lazy, letting you get away with a number of things that it shouldn't. Some people may think that a compiler should let you make a few mistakes and do the 'obvious' right thing, but this is wrong wrong wrong. This can cause very subtle errors, especially if you expect the compiler to do the actual right thing and tell you that you made a mistake or that you're doing something questionable and dangerous. It also leads to code that works fine on windows but doesn't port easily without dozens of small modifications per file. Of course, I doubt microsoft minds if code written in Visual C++ doesn't work right on say, linux or Mac OS.
Finally, look at the dates on the executables. Its at least 2 years old. How many new processors have come out in that time? VC still wants to compile for 486 compatibility (which is sometimes needed for people who support old systems, I admit) but it won't even optimize for anything higher than a pentium pro.
Sorry.... offtopic I know, but I got carried away.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
Same problem here. The engineering on most of the optical mouse is great, but the wires inside cable at the point it goes into the mouse is susecptable to breakage from metal fatigue or simple wear. Whatever, I had one die on me as well after about the same amount of time.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
I should have read the other posts before posting. This doesn't refer to any version of MS mice except the new optical mice. I agree that all their old ball mice are EXTREMELY reliable, though I have to admit I still prefer logitech.
And lifetime warranty aside, it shouldn't have happened. The mouse dies for reasons having nothing to do with it being optical. Its just a bad design on the point where the cable enters the mouse proper.
And if anyone suggest a wireless mouse to solve the problem, I will make it my mission in life to decrease their level of happiness. When they make a wireless OPTICAL mouse, I will buy one. If it can't track on carpet, I don't want it.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
This is precisely the problem. We're ending up drones in a manufactured reality, and becoming complacent about distinguishing between reality and fantasy. I know it sounds like paranoia, but essentially the human race is being conditioned by advertising to accept lies, and do it blithely. I know that in the big picture, there are probably more important battles to be fought, such as world hunger, but even so, we cannot lose sight of the insidious destructive power of 'advertising', which has become synonymous with 'lies'. The more we stay silent, the more the companies begin to realize they can shaft us even more, increase their margins, lower quality on the product while raising it on the ad, until they sell us an empty box and we're convinced we're leading a better life because we bought the 'product'. I'm sure someone can come up with an example of that already. Oh, wait, I just realized, its religion.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
And that will be, which game machine will more people buy at what profit margin per box and per game.
My bet is on Nintendo for first place, and Microsoft for the usual second place. But Microsoft will act like it has the better box, because that's what they do.
[caveat - I own shares of both MSFT and NTDOY (ADR)]
Will in Seattle
The robot demo was done using Maya (this was reported a few months back in Computer Graphics World or 3D Artist, I forget which). They just applied certain design constraints (such as only using point light sources) in an effort to approximate the XBox capabilities. Maybe I'm just too anal-retentive, but I think it's kind of shifty that they didn't declare more prominently that this was a totally rigged and pre-rendered demo.
Of course, having seen some of the early stuff being done on the GeForce 3 (from which the XBox graphics are derived), I have little doubt that the final hardware could pull something off pretty close to the demo, but still...
Videos can be doctored too. This has even been proved in a court of law...
> Xbox isn't out... So what if they paste in trees?
Well, maybe it's because their Xbox site says "Yes, these are actual acreenshots" below the pictures...
- - - - -
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
It is common practice to produce 'estimated-will-look-like' graphics for games as the first stage of greasing the media hype machine
... is it common practice to label doctored images with the legend "Yes, these are actual screenshots?"
- - - - -
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
The intellimouse I bought in 1996 is still working great. It occasionally gets gummed up with crap from the mousing surface, but when I clean that out its as good as new. The internals are well designed, and the casing, moving parts, and electronics are all very well built.
Plus they were the first company to deliver optical mice that don't need a reflective mousepad. And the first company to have a mouse with a scroll wheel.
I hear their joysticks are of comparable quality, but I haven't used them myself. But my experience with microsoft hardware has been quite excellent in all cases.
My 60$ Microsoft LED "Intellimouse" died after about 6 months. Many other people had this problem. Beautifully Engineered my ass.
Later,
ErikZ
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Hmmmm... so Microsoft doctors something which they claim to be legitimate evidence, and then gets caught when the details are looked into. Reminds me of a video tape during the antitrust trial.
Sorry, but anyone who says that this is just an honest mistake by Microsoft is deluding themselves. The mistake that Microsoft is a really sorry about is getting caught.
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
Buy the X-Box and get a free copy of photoshop to make the games actually look good.... (whoops)
The only thing that slashdot MAY have done wrong was to NOT post OTHER game sites that do this.
What Microsoft did was shitty. Using the 'but everyone does it' excuse is childish and immature. If you can't demonstrate the actually quality of your product in pre-release, then DON'T DEMONSTRATE YOUR PRODUCT.
If you look at the new images, there is a SEVERE difference in the quality of the image between the 'REAL' post, and the DOCTORED post is dramatically different. So, why aren't the doctored images 'false advertising?.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
I think the analysis of the lens flare is valid.
I'm not so sure about the "type 3 edges" analysis though... When the images are prepped for online display, they will typically be resized to the display size which has a blurring effect because of interpolation, then resharpened using Unsharp Mask to synthetically recreate/restore detail. I think the artifacts that are getting pointed out here are typical of a slightly overzealous UM, not uncommon at all when the focus of the final image isn't right here.
I am DEFINITELY sure that this stuff hardly matters - the live onscreen graphics may not match these screenshot pixel for pixel, and I don't think this really matters to anybody shopping for an XBox.
DF
Gotta love Stupidity Tax...it truly saddens me every time I see someone purchase one of those idiot magazines.
-Ben
Say what you mean, mean what you say! But please know what #$@% you are talking about!
That's entirely different. I thought everyone knew that model shots are totally touched up. And pop songs always use digital tone correction to make those pop singers sound on key.
The difference is that I'm not in the business of purchasing models (god forbid). The picture is the product, and so I don't give a damn about reality. If, however, you're trying to sell me something based on a faked photograph, I think I'll get upset.
Good point. The average CNN/AOL or MSNBC/M$ crowds don't question whether their sources for journalism are biased. They blindly believe whatever they are told like good little sheep.
Anyway, you're both right and wrong. Yes flaming never helps win a debate, but it does keep the debate running hot. And I think we all like to read a good flame occationally. But my reason for posting this was to comment on M$'s hardware.
"Microsofts hardware though is glorious. It's all beautifully engineered, and works as advertised."
I don't know about you but the only hardware I've used from M$ is a mouse. Although a mouse is a truely revolutionary idea it is hardly as complex as a DVD drive, or a whole computer. Now I don't doubt that M$ will make a good gaming system free of hardware bugs, but don't quote me on it.
Microsoft is a marketting company. They aren't a software company or a hardware company. If they were they'd be improving (QAing) their software product instead of adding features and bugs to attract only the most masochistic consumers. Instead they focus more on market trends and use their foresight, and dominant position in the computer industry as a whole, to place themselves between you (the consumer) and about half the software out there (their competition, GPL excluded of course).
They first did this with their wintendoze and M$-DOS OSs. You can hardly call them OSs, but they did keep almost all the other software companies at bay while they placed themselves in as the proprietary standard in both the operating system and most document formats. If it weren't for HTML we'd all be reading this from M$ Word or Explorer.
Now Microsoft has their eye on new ground. The gaming market. They've designed a computer that can run games. Almost like a wintendoze box, but slightly different. This one is going to require you to purchase the X-Box before you can buy the coolest games, since M$ has already bought the companies behind Halo and who knows what else. They will most likely use NDAs or some other legal tools to push their weight around and keep other game companies from releasing their products for the PC until after they push out an X-Box release first, etc. So I guess I'm just gonna have to play tf2 or spend more time writing code and ripping movies.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for M$ and other monopolistic corporations. Give them all the money you want, buy their products, deal with their legal restrictions. But DON'T EVER COMPLAIN about what you get. Cuz just remember, you deserve it.
Is it me, or some of us have WAY TOO MUCH TIME to spend trying to find absurd details like this one. You have some m4D photoshop skillz and you can zoom a picture and find out that there's three type of edge. Great, you've solved every single problem on planet earth.
:/.
Sorry for being a troll, but sometimes I can't believe all the hours wasted looking for stupid details like this one. The worst part is that slashdot is posting 'em
Granted, the comment was a bit blunt, but is a "troll" label necessary?
There was ample evidence to suggest that Microsoft did fake demonstration videos during the DOJ trial. The Washington Post reported in Feb 1999 (sorry, no URL available) that "Microsoft was forced to concede that the demonstrations contained inaccuracies". Wired also reported that Microsoft conveniently "edited" video to that inaccurately suggested that Netscape Communicator was easier to install than it really was. the DOJ submitted their own footage indicating this, which forced MS Vice President Brad Chase to concede.
Newsbytes reported a similar incident (sorry, no URL available), when Boise confronted Allchin with proof that another MS video didn't depict what it was supposed to about the "Felton Program" and its effect on Internet Explorer.
Each time this happens, Microsoft responds with a "Whoops! An unfortunate mistake!" Of course, they only seem to do this when they're caught. I haven't heard of an incident when they've volunteered this information before someone caught them.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
It's far from the first time - there's a long tradition of game companies altering box and screenshot art. The first instance I'm aware of where a company rigged their own artwork was Wing Commander. What made it significant was that it was one of the first games that looked significantly "real", and in fact in the advertising, they made a big point that the box art was an actual screenshot from the game. It wasn't until playing it for a while that I realized that the cockpit shown didn't look like any from the game; and worse, the weapon effects on the cover had been digitally added, and didn't actually match anything in the game. In other words, the first time a game company *ever* (to my knowledge - anyone know of one earlier?) claimed to show actual screen art on the game box, well, they lied. That was 1990 - not too much has changed since.
I thought the graphics chip was still "in the making" and, hence, any images released are running on a not to spec XBox or something that is emulating the XBox (or they are completely fabricated anyway).
marty
"I can't buy want I want because it's free. Can't be what they want because I'm me." -Corduroy, Pearl Jam
Is this really M$ fault?? I mean, every _other_ X-* site has some touched-up ;-)
pictures for download, and nobody seems to complain about them.
There is no lie here. They are actual screenshots... it's just that they are from a graphic artists' computer and not from the X-Box.
Not all of their software is bad. Ever use visual c++?
Sweek Jesus! Don't tell me everyone is going to start add stock disclaimers to their posts - as if IANAL wasn't bad enough!
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
--
--
I like to watch.
In fact I have seen many ads here which seem to show things which just plain wouldn't happen. And quite a few with just plain outright lies. Coming from the UK, this was quite a shock to me as consumer protection is taken quite seriously there (for better or worse) and honesty in advertising is strictly enforced (an exception was made for Heineken as the claims in their adverts were considered as just too outlandish to apply (as I guess the pickup/moon could claim to be)
Rich
...Does anyone Truly Beleive that the XBox could NOT do this graphic in True 3D Realtime.
Whether you like Microsoft or not you got to realize that the Xbox does have a lot of power behind it. and it could most likely render this scene in real time with ease. Especially since I have seen the Dreamcast do effects that are somewhat Similar to what they are trying to do here.
And this is nothing new. I remember when the N64 first debuted as Project Reality they had all the graphics for the Ultra 64 running on $10000 SGI Onyx machines.
--
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
With a 3d engine you could end up with 'jaggie' edges, like the trees have with the rest of the backdrop, but this isn't what you get round the figure. The figure had already been anti-aliased, only they'd been anti-aliased onto a white backdrop, when they cut'n'pasted off this they had the problem that there were rogue stray white pixels round the figure, and the edges faded to white. This is not a new problem, designers face this everyday when copying images from stock studio photographs to use elsewhere. What is new is their solution: Don't bother. Given a Photoshop-equipped machine and a bit of time I could have removed the white edges to some reasonable amount, and I'm not a professional designer.
The fact is these were not only faked, but faked badly. Yes, you can easily get better images from a 3d package, or Photoshop, but these didn't do it. The artifacts round the character are definately those of copying off a white background though, I somehow don't think nVidia are suddenly going to build chips that randomly add white pixels round a character, and alias the surrounding character pixels to them and not the background. It's pathetic.
Now the reason this is the 'worst offence' is that in game graphics the amount of polugons, and the shading used on them, is king. nVidia became leaders by throwing more polygons round in a reasonable time than their competitors. The face on this screenshot is pretty much what I'd expect from a pre-render for a 3d package.. the actual polygon quality is far in excess of what most games have at the moment. Yes, XBox will be capable of doing some quite incredible 3d tricks (Having read, and salivated, at the specs for the GeForce3 I can tell nVidia is doing some good stuff) but it won't be capable of this. That's the problem, the face is too good, and claiming it's an actual screenshot is a blatant lie.
This is like a newspaper doctoring the image of President Bush to actually show devil's horns sticking out of the top of his head, and claiming it's an actual photograph. No matter what your politics, or viewpoint, what was done here was lying- not marketing. It's simple.
404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
I opened the new screenshots straight from Microsoft here in a text editor and found "Photoshop 3.0," "File written by Adobe Photoshop 5.0," and "Adobe" in the first few lines. Have they really cleaned up their act? Why don't they distribute the "screenshots" in .PSD format?
Yes, and it was held to be illegal. FTC vs. Campbell Soup Co., 77 FTC 664 (1970).
Immediately after the story broke a couple days ago, Microsoft put up an apology.
These ARE the actual screenshots...they are different from the "concept art" that was mistakenly put up.
The XBox team was very quick to respond to this overblown bullshit.
Ryan Finley
Ryan Finley
SurveyMonkey.com -- Create your own professional surveys
First, NetBSD was ported to the DreamCast, NOT FreeBSD. FreeBSD is only for Intel and Alpha, but there's lots more apps, support, etc. Also, BSD, in general, is for people who love Unix. Linux is for people who hate Microsoft. Otherwise, you're absolutely right.
*BSD is for people who love Unix
Linux is for people who hate Microsoft
It's a very dark ride.
http://www.xbox.com/games/amped/assets/amped-image -1.jpg
That is at xbox.com! This does prove the webpage is not a fake. Sadly I must wonder why these companies do stuff like this.... if Xbox is all so great, you don't need to touch up stuff... it will be rendered "perfect" live
Ever need an online dictionary?
Where's the apology?
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
I'm not normally one to nitpick, but did you read what you just replied to? The answer to your question was clearly in there.
I'm sure if they were really trying to deceive us, they would have checked the images more throughly. The anti-aliasing error was pretty obvious. (The lighting looks all wrong, too, as if the character pasted on top was originally under indoor lighting.)
I don't think xbox will have the first real time lens flares created in the gaming industry. I am pretty sure that serious sam has lens flares too(to some degree)
Stop buying soup from the store then.
---
Desperation is a stinky cologne
Why wouldn't it be able to run photoshop filters? You don't think adobe would license their code?
Anyway, the final lens flair might look a little diffrent, but probably not by much.
Rate me on Picture-rate.com
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
The site said photoshop, but the slashdoterotii were claming that the site was wrong and the image was a 3d render.
But whatever, almost every image looks 'doctored' if you look close enough.
Rate me on Picture-rate.com
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Nope, the NVidia card in the Xbox is going to be at least one generation ahead of the one they're going to be selling to consumers.
Rate me on Picture-rate.com
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Please stop making claims for a machine that doesn't exist yet. You have no idea of the exact specs of the machine yet, merely what an accomplished hype machine says are the specs. Just like the Windows 2000 final version was missing some of the promised features, I'm willing to bet that the XBox will too.
The white artifacts were not the reason people first suspect the images were doctored. It was the lens flare, someone noticed that it was the exact same flare effect you get from photoshop. Then someone else noticed the white artifacts around the character, then someone else noticed that there was a green pixel from the background in the character's face. It was a lot of evidence, perhaps you should follow the link to ign, scroll down to onimusha(sp?)'s post and follow his link.
The doctored shot is NOT on the page labeled "Yes, these are actual screenshots" - it has been removed and replaced with "clean" images.
If nothing was meant to "deceptive," then why weren't there little notices or somesuch?
Well we all know why they did it.
They didn't want to show images of the new Blue Screen Of Death.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
MS did this with another game too. have they no shame?
my other computer is your Windows(tm) box...
Right here:
http://www.xbox.com/games/amped/default.htm
I like how it says "Yes, these are actual screen shots!"
I simply can't believe that such a reputable company like Microsoft would artificially try to make its product look better than it really is.
Seriously though, I'm sure this stuff is everywhere. Now the real question: did they use Photoshop for Mac or Windows?
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Specifically, I remember Sony doing this for the PS2 (not to be confused with PS/2...duh). They produced screenshots of games not yet in development by taking screenshots from existing playstation titles and making them look better.
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Crudely Drawn Games
Snowboarding games suck ass anyway
aztek: the ultimate man
No sig for you!!
All your base are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time.
--
Ikaruga scoreboard (supports netranking)
If you look at the pictures of Abe's Oddyssey for XBox, which has no "modifications" at all, you'll see that they're just as amazing, if not more so. XBox has put out the best visuals of all the upcoming consoles, hands down.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
They're Sidewinder gamepads work very well. As do most of their Natural keyboards.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
The whole point of hacking a cheap box is because it's cheap. $400 for a high-end P3, NVidia GeForce 3, 100 MB ethernet, 8GB hard drive, 2 USB ports and high end video outputs doesn't seem like a bad deal to me AT ALL.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
My original Intellimouse Explorer still works. It's been.. what.. 2 years or something?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Uh, how? If you use free software (which I imagine you do, low user #3438) your software choices aren't limited by buying X-Box at all. There will still be a million Linux distros. Freshmeat will still exist.
If anything, you'll actually be hurting Microsoft by not purchasing software to support the traditional console model (sell the hardware below cost, then rack up profits with the licensing fees). If you're totally against Microsoft so far as you have the words "anti-M$" tatooed to your arm, purchasing the X-Box hardware then not getting the software is probably the BEST thing you can do.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Sorry about that. NetBSD.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
But no. We focus on the same "Slashdot M$" bullshit as always. The enhance a couple of pics. Key word: a couple. They throw a crappy lens flare up and change the background. Personally I thought the pictures looked worse.
But does anyone at Slashdot look at some of the other, non-modified screenshots like Abe's Oddysey (which look awesome?) Or say anything other than "Well it's M$. We know they'se are the eE. Where are my Warez? I'm so l33t!" Noooooooo.
This is such absolute biased bullshit. We've got a great machine here people. Why shoot it down. Why not hack the damn thing. Noone seems to know about this on Slashdot because, quite frankly, most of the people who are anti-MS here act like complete children.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit...
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
George Broussard of 3D Realms stated earlier this year that he opposed people taking their own screenshots and posting them on the web or using those shots in magazines. His interest, of course, is to prevent crappy screenshots from making his games look like crap.
But of course, the problem with his position is that unethical game developers might try to start passing off touched-up photos as the real deal. I guess we should thank Microsoft (king of the unethical) for proving this point. Good, uncensored reviews are important for the consumer; then it doesn't matter if the screenshots coming out of MS are fake. Informed consumers will be able to seek out and find the truth out for themselves.
Uninformed consumers, of course, will still be duped, but they already get duped by crappy games in great looking boxes covered with screenshots of pre-rendered cut scenes.
Check out PlanetXbox for Micro$oft's reply.... something about those pictures being "concept art mis-labeled as screenshots". Yeah, just an accident... sure. ;)
Actually the best visuals I have seen on an actual game from the current crop of consoles have been GT3 and MGS2 on PS2. Sure, X-Box will have more power when it's released (although the steep learning curve for developing on the PS2 will mean its games will be improving for a while yet), but it's not really the same generation of console as the PS2. PS2 will have been released 1.5 years before X-Box (at least).
I personally think that the actual difference between PS2 & X-Box graphics in a couple of years time will be negligible.
There is a big difference between labelling mock-up as 'actual screenshots' and photos of plastic burgers in McD ads.
If McD had a message saying 'actual burgers photographed' then it would be equivalent. Although I still feel screenshots are taken in good faith by the gaming public and should not be tainted with this sort of thing like other industries.
Yep, I had the exact same problem with my MS optical mouse. Died after a short time. There must have been a design flaw in the first generation.
Enigma
Enigma
I am really surprised, there is a still a person around that actually believes, an advertisement can carry any truth. From working in this business I remember no case of actually photographing actual product with no 'beautification' added.
You know, torches used on turkeys, any beer would do as the beer you are really pushing etc.
I see no reason whatsoever for software or hardware to be different.
-m-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
I do not even assign them any particular malice in this sort of thing. I see it as sort of being an ingrained character trait. They might not even be aware of it as a bad thing to do as such. They migh have all sorts of reasons, like all of the good MS has done for the world.
Microsoft has been famous for vaporware and demos that were not the real thing for many many years. You expect them to suddenly get religion now?
Even their faithful supporters know better, and expect a flim flam from the marketing department, an exaggerated claim, a quick shuffle and brush off. Even their supporters know to be just a little bit cynical.
We are not even talking about their "Evil Master Plan"(tm) - We are talking about the culture and the business as usual attitudes. If you live within that culture for many years, all kinds of things becomes justifiable.
A note of caution: if you choose to fight monsters, be careful that you do not turn into a monster yourself.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
What do you expect from Micro$oft. If they did doctor the picture, I don't know what they were really trying to do. Lens flare doesn't make it look that much better.
The difference is that the 2.4 kernel did include everything that they said it would. And if it didn't, notification would be put out at once. Microsoft announces bullshit features for their products months and sometimes even over a year ahead of time and then sweeps them under the rug when it doesn't pan out. It's the willful deception in their marketing that's the problem. I remeber when they were saying that what turned into Win2000 Pro was going to combine NT Workstation, NT Server, & 98. Nope. Now it'll be WINDOWS XP - ohhh! ahhh! That will save all of us from ourselves. Yeah, right. The sad part is, I'm probably going to have to abandon my argument in the question of Win vs. Mac, that Windows is more configurable. Those fucks don't even trust us with our own PC's any more. XP won't let people do shit if MS doesn't approve.
Don't get me wrong. I run two different flavors on my box at home, a third at work, and love it. Of course I'll take linux any day. Unfortunately, it's still just short of passing the "Mom" test. However, I didn't want to sound like the rest of the jack-offs who have nothing better to say than, "Forget it all and run [insert fav distro here]." And, given the choice between Mac and Win, I'll choose Windows.
3DFX focused on quality over frame rate - for the time being the 5500 will sit.
Now _THAT'S_ a riot. When every other hardware company had moved to 24/32-bit color 3dfx was the only company not making the transition, trying to convince everyone that there wasn't a difference anyways. 3dfx' mantra was frame-rate over quality, and they were very explicit in stating this. It's just interesting seeing revisionist history such as what you are stating.
They bought out the competitoin and sold thier souls to Microsoft.
Bought out? 3dfx was headed to the grave. nvidia did what was reasonable and obtained the technology, though most likely purely to ensure there are no ridiculously broad patents in 3dfx' portfolio that a malicious buyer could use to harrass them with. Windows happens to be on the majority of home PCs, and many console makers are looking to supplant PCs and take over as your primary home entertainment/net access box and this represents a threat to both Microsoft and nvidia (mind you these vacuous threats are about as credible as Marc Andreeson's claims many years ago that Netscape would shortly be your operating system), so of course they coordinate to take on contenders such as Sony and Nintendo. More power to them.
Everyone wants their system/console to be the best looking, but its wrong to doctor them to imply more graphics power.
text editors-ha! real men use echo "*" > file
Remembering the hoo-ha about the Apple Cube photos, and how Mac Junkie thought they were a fraud, I don't get too worked-up about arguments over photographic 'evidence' anymore.
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
So I don't get why people are so excited about the Xbox, technologically; I guess before graduating a CS/CE major, I didn't know any better... is that all that's happening now? Compare, say, a PowerMac tower:
Similar NVidia card
DVDR/DVD/CDRW (take your pick)
Ethernet
Hard drive
It also has a faster processor (G4 at 733MHz) as well as gigabit ethernet(I think)
I guess it's going to be 8x more expensive, but the point is those hardware junkies could get a similar machine now... while the BSD people, well, can wait for their XBox, I guess.
Is it the prospect of a Microsoft driven gaming economy? Or the high quality of Microsoft software? What?
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
Its been happening forever. Once the console comes out indepented reviews go over it and will tell us that its shit. Most games/console have been doctoring photos forever.
No, the site said something like "this thing was constructed in a 3D renderer, and if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hockeypuck mouse". No Photoshop.
Sadly, I can't prove it of course.
When I first looked at the original I wondered why it said "51 mph". I think it's pretty clear that was a gameplay screenshot, and the big guy (clearly not moving) is covering a little guy who's skiing.
"Watch these suckers jump when I get Administrator."
As anyone who's ever seen a VG publisher's marketing department get busy can attest, this happens with regularity, everywhere in the industry. But judging by the critical tone of the write-up here, you'd think Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer personally made these 'doctored' screenshots. You can all relax though, because it was just a USD$30k/year marketing lackey following orders and making something to show, and only for the benefit of their boss. (who's no doubt much more interested in cocktail hour than video games or the veracity of their representation)
/. write up to be more unflattering to Slashdot than miscor$oft. This is completely typical of the industry, not a grand conspiracy to commit fraud. sheesh.
Personally, I find the accusatory and suspicion tinged slant of the
::I will not moderate my opinions for your stinking karma
The milk in the spoon isn't milk. It's glue. Also, 3dfx would NEVER paint their logo on the surface of the chip; it would only be engraved. And that's leaving out the fact that the heatsink/fan isn't on the chip on the on-box photo.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Whatever Microsoft has managed to lodge up timothy's arse, he should have it removed :)
= Y& a=tpc&s=50009562&f=39309975&m=3490923121
t pc &s=610091063&f=742091063&m=1620961441
Anyhow, here are the specifics of the situation:
1) Microsoft released some screenshots
2) Some gamers noticed that they looked faked, and an uproar was started
3) Microsoft re-checked the images, and had this to say:
"Some of the images for Amped released during Gamestock were enhanced to illustrate some features that will be in the final product. While this is a common practice for games so early in development, we apologize for the confusion. No one intended to be deceptive. Everyone was so busy prepping for Gamestock, that we just missed the fact that these were labeled "concept art". Frankly, we're impressed with the skillz of those digital sleuths! Nice work!"
4) The game dev team issued new screenshots, which they insist are in-game, and haven't been doctored in any way, and hte old shots were removed.
You can read threads about this entire debacle over at Ars:
http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q
and at Dailyradar:
http://forums.dailyradar.com/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=
The long and the short of it is no, there isn't some sort of conspiracy, and Microsoft isn't pulling a sham on anyone. If you really think that all of the media and so forth up to this point is fake, then you have two options:
a) go see the thing demoed somewhere when it comes out
b) don't buy it.
Simple, ne?
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-- russ
"You want people to think logically? ACK! Turn in your UID, you traitor!"
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
There needs to be a seperation (if not here on slashdot) between microsofts hardware and software. Their software (especially the upcoming versions with all the content protection crap, back door holes, call in for install permission) deserves to be loathed.
Microsofts hardware though is glorious. It's all beautifully engineered, and works as advertised. It's like they are two different companies.
It's a Dr, Jekyll - Mr. Hyde relationship. So perhaps the don't deserve some of the flames on the hardware side (and do you ever hear any??). But doctoring the photos "because everybody does it" doesn't make it right.
That being said, if you have read slashdot for any length of time, the kind of journalism here is off the cuff and raw, bias built in. Its not meant for the average CNN crowd.
In fact, your post is as flamy as some of the bias you set out to condemn. Your points would carry more weight if they didn't have the flames.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Of course, every PC game that comes out, for the most part, can be downloaded first in demo form or you can go over and play with a friend's copy. Magazines are given pre-release review copies with specific liscenses. If they have a problem with a no-screenshot clause, they can refuse to review the game. If you want a real world example, look at Trespasser. That game basically became known as the "look at her breasts game" before it was released because every single review had a screenshot of the player looking down as far as possible and checking out their own cleavage. Of course, the game sucked anyway so maybe this was actually beneficial to sales :)
The point is that if *noone* had noticed or /. hadn't raised the point, MS would have just kept on saying that they were *real* screenshots. It's a poor sign for a company to lie so blatantly to its costomers. Imagine if palm came out and said 'oh yeah, those new pictures of the m500 and m505 are just something my son worked out in photoshop - they're really about the size of a shoebox but you won't find out until we've got about 10,000 pre-orders in' don't you think it would harm palm's image?
-Nano.
Note - I merely said this was common - and I gave an example of totally away from technology ads to showcase that fact. The point I was trying to make is that everyone shows the best side of the product in an ad - MS, Redhat, whoever - that's advertising.
.. or MS for that matter because I doubt I'll be close enough to the situation to fully understand what is going on.
..? See my point ?
I do not condone or othwerwise make a value judgement on MS's "false" advertisement (we have laws for that) MS's competitors in this field (of which there are plenty and they have money) can choose to take MS to task for false advertisement if they see a procecutable case. Frankly I don't give a damn what happens to the XBox
These days we're drowned in advertisement that I can't see how anyone can take anything in ads as face value. Who is going to ring Colgate and tell them that their teeth models have had a PaintBox whitening ? Or what the f*ck happened to those McD's Burgers
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Jon - TheSpork
I am sure most of the slashdot readers would know not to buy the bok based on it's cover (unless it has an animal on it =))
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Jon - TheSpork
MS wants a monopoly of the console market and will do so by whatever means. Who expects buisness ethics from MS anyways?
Personally, I think that if Sony and Nintendo were to jump off cliffs, then, yes, it would be right for Microsoft to jump too. =)
Is it so bad to tell people that you have a feature in your product before you actually do?
Yes, if the product's creator isn't sure what form the actual feature will take. I'm sure that MS can pull off a lens flare in the final, and I'm sure they can stick in whatever models were abscent from the current version. But what they don't know is what form they will take. Maybe they'll be able to equal the quality of the faked screens, maybe not.
This wouldn't be a problem if they had just mentioned, "these screens are demos of what the final may look like," or something similar.
And just because other people do it doesn't make it right. Don't make me ask you about jumping off a cliff...
When you purchase a box of corn flakes, do you care that Kelloggs went through 300 boxes of flakes to find 50 perfect ones for the picture? And do you care that the milk is really Elmer's Glue? No, you don't. And will you really care if Brett Favre has a Type 3 or Type 2 anti-aliased head in Madden 200x? No, you won't.
This is just creative advertising. If Microsoft was trying to seriously dupe the public, then they wouldn't have actual video of Amped on the Xbox website. They haven't done anything out of the ordinary here, folks. Advertisers have been doing this very thing for years.
Here's what happened:
- Advertising/PR department asks development for some screenshots.
- Developers deliver some of the best stuff they have technically, but not necessarily stuff that makes good glossies.
- PR flack decides "well, maybe that man's head would look good in front of a snowy background; and wouldn't it be nifty if I added this little Photoshop lens flare that I used 150 times on my geocities home page! LOL
- PR flack releases screenshots to gaming mags, technologically obsessed losers salivate, Joe Consumer says "Wow, dem computers shure are sometin', ain't dey!!!"
- Exceptionally sharp-eyed technologically obsessed loser notes two pixels that are not properly anti-aliased
- Geek community (also known as "every kid who got beat up in the bike rack in middle school") treats it like they found an undoctored image of E. Howard Hunt holding a
.30 06 in the Texas School Book Depository while getting buttfucked by Lyndon Johnson, and reading the November 22, 1963 Dallas newspaper.
If you can justify spending a femtosecond of your time obsessing, gloating, or jerking off over this, please report to the gas chambers immediately. You're using up enough of my oxygen as is.Thanks, cunt!
Love,
Slashfucker
Gee, looks like somebody doesn't want
Also, its a fucking silly thing anyway. Does anyone out there really think that of all the things the X-Box can't do, real-time lens flares are one of them? Heh heh. How silly is this shit?
I really should stop reading Slashdot, as all it ever does is piss me off these days..unfortunately as it slides into uselessness at the speed of VA Linux's stock decline, I can't help but look..kind of like a car wreck.
I occasionally post screenshots for others to see, undoctored, but I too open them up in Photoshop first because people don't like to download a 3 MB bitmap....
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
Hmm, the stuff alegedly doctored doesn't seem to be worth doctoring. Lens flares are quick and dirty. The only reason it takes so long in photoshop is because they have many settings, plus it has to look real good pixel per pixel. Most games use pre made lens flares, and just paste them on in the correct position. Lens flares are just simulated. I don't know of any professional 3D graphic studios that use calculated lens flares as opposed to just illusions. Next, the claims of the person being pasted on. The person isn't an extra strain on the system compared to what they have already shown is capable of the X-Box. All the existing systems can easily handle a person and background, it really isn't that much. Also, perhaps the aliasing between the person and the background is a fault in the system itself, not proof of doctoring. Antialiasing is not very easy to perfect, and different algorithims work better in different situations. What has been claimed as doctored isn't really worth doctoring. If it was, it was just because they knew the game would eventually look like that, because what they faked just wan't implemented yet. If I was to complain about doctoring, I would be worried about the reflection in the glasses, or if the person pasted in wasn't rendered with the X-Box but say in 30 seconds on someones computer.
There was a time a couple of years back when loads of First Person Shooters coming out had pictures on the back of the boxes showing actual polygonal shadows (as opposed to just circles), e.g. Quake 2 and Half-Life.
When you actually played the game you found you didn't have an option to turn these realtime shadows on. In Half-life you had to wait until the console code to turn it on was posted on some web site- ditto for the glshadows in Quake 2, but I think you even had to download a patch before the Quake 2 one would have proper shadows!!!!
I mean- isn't this worse? In this scenario you're buying a game which actually has screenshots on the back of the box which you can't reproduce at home when you have the game!
Graspee
I think one of the big deal about MS-Xbox doing it is that they have hyped it up so much you'd think it could do lens flares in real time. I mean I believed that too.
> Geek community (also known as "every kid who got
> beat up in the bike rack in middle school")
I beg your pardon. Some of us were linemen in high school. Just because you're smart and nerdy doesn't mean you couldn't beat the crap out of both of those tough guys in "My Bodyguard."
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
Bubbles in coffee and hot cocoa are made with detergent, "milk" in cereal ads is Elmers white glue (cereal doesn't get soggy in glue), etc.
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Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
Open source zealots touch up their screenshots too. For instance every time you see a screenshot of a "transparent" xterminal window it never overlaps with another window. Why not? because it would reveal immediately that the term isn't really transparent. Go over screenshots at themes.org if you don't believe.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Thanks for the insult, but I must say: WTF? What I called the POTmap means Plain Old Texture-map. I'm sorry but this 'POTamap' sounds like one of tampax's rivals. 3G? W.U.A.S.T.C.F.H! If your engine was such an advance, why would it produce a bright color as a transition between two darker edges? F'kin' Dunce! That mostly comes from rendering to a white background and pasting to a non-white by using a mask based on a feathered selection. Call troll 1MT and I'll send the pixies round. Gimp.
-CB
Do you remember the box of Command & Conquer:Tiberian Sun? The effects (especially the fire and the light) on the pictures that were supposed to be in-game pics looked way better than in the actual game.
If you really want to know what a game looks like before you buy it: play it.
keep it simple.
Nintendo Pre-rendered their "screenshots" for the cube, but they did not say hoping people would think it is a screen shot. Also what is one screenshot out them all, I mean really people. It is such a big deal over nothing. I mean if you look at shots for games like Malice and so on they are not edited.
Splat, even if what you said made sense. It still does not explain your rudeness. I mean you did not even have an informend comment there. All you did was yell out some crap and that was about it.
Beat up what people thought was the toughest guy at school because he was trying to intimidate me... LOL He couldn't even land a punch Broke some dudes leg... Jump kicked some other dude in the chest so hard it left a big foot mark... I shoulda got into more fights though... I had a stupid 'won't bite first' attitude back then
God spoke to me
Xbox isn't out... So what if they paste in trees? Its not like its lying and is going to really come out with atari2600 graphics. And I was so looking forward to the lens flare effect! Damn you microsoft! I had it for the last time! M$ has lots of stuff to be upset about, mainly how it grinds software development to a halt by its strong arm tactics, but doctoring photos... Big deal, I think that they should do stuff like that...
God spoke to me
I think this is very newsworthy:
3DFX effectivly dies.
NVidia no longer has competition. They start to proprietize around DirectX 8.
Now MacroShaft needs to deliver riding on someone else's coattails again. One would think NVidia could see the writing on the wall (Citrix style).
Now we will be subjected to a round of cards selling us features we don't need (shadowing) and they will only work better on one API, DirectX.
And now, even with a feather in the cap, Microsoft and the legion of marketing whores and MBAs have to engage in flat out lying to the public.
Sad times are these when ruffians walk about selling bullcrap to the masses....
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
3DFX focused on quality over frame rate - for the time being the 5500 will sit. (The GeForce 2 is in another box).
ATI is junk, the drivers are junk, they live off of OEM deals. The Kyro cards are nice, I would like them to gain traction.
Yes, Microsoft is again riding another company's technology wave to capitalize.
Yes, DX8 is the focus, the card will be hardware tuned for DX8. Who develops for OpenGL? I rarely see a game with a decent OpenGL 'option.' I do, however, recall playing several games in '3DFX' modes because changing the driver every thirty seconds as it is in NVidia land gets annoying. I think NVidia's products are decent. I think this XBOX is a monopolistic venture designed to stifle and kill off other markets. I used to game quite avidly and do so much less due to the defecit of decent things to play. (Deus Ex was tasty though...)
I don't shoot off at the mouth like you seem to think I do, its an opinion. I think NVidia is selling out. They bought out the competitoin and sold thier souls to Microsoft. Yes, I saw the DOOM 3/MAC/NVidia crap. BFD. Until a PPC becomes more PC and can be made from pieces it will sit in the corner. (I wish PPC would make its way into non-Apple boxes one of these days for LinuxPPC)
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
maybe next time they will use the gimp ;)
-mind different
3d/fx was going the way of the dinosaur from the very beginning. Their refusal to spend money on research and riding the wave of old technology did them in.
nVidia CERTAINLY has competition. Ever hear of ATI? Oh, and remember this story ?
Microsoft is NOT riding anyone's coattails. They have made it very clear that nVidia is responsible for the core technologies involved. MS do not even want to try being a hardware company. They're software and hence, they request hardware from nVidia.
nVidia is NOT zeroing in on DX8. This is 100% aboslute bull. Did you happen to notice that their new flagship product was first announced on the Macintosh? Somehow I doubt OS X uses DX8... gee. OpenGL ring a bell?
Get your facts straight, and then you may distort them at your leisure.
Why bother.
This modification is as minor as the baby oil on fruit or pushing vegies in soup to the top. No, it's not nearly that intense. Just relax.
I can't believe shit like this gets posted as a front-page story on /.
Why bother.