Slashdot Mirror
Aeron Chairs As Stupidity Barometers
McSpew writes: "This article at Salon describes how much startup venture money went to buying $700 Aeron chairs. Personally, I think Aerons suck. I'm sitting in one now and my back is killing me--I can never get this damn chair adjusted right, or to get it to stay in a configuration close to comfortable for very long. The wonderful high-tech mesh fabric acts like sandpaper and wears holes in my pants. I honestly miss the boring chair I had at my last job. Am I the only person who hates Aerons?" Aerons are stylish, but not everyone finds them the comfortable work chairs they're supposed to be. Here's one that looks truly comfortable.
You'll be begging for your Aeron back in 20 minutes. It's a good chair but if some people need to attach blame to inanimate objects for their losses in the stock market then sure, blame the chairs. I've worked for years in the industry and the chairs in offices are usually uncomfortable. It may surprise you to know that some of those uncomfortable chairs costs your company upwards of $500. I paid $650 for our Aerons and everyone in the office was begging for one. And to the comments about being unable to adjust it properly...RTFM.
Lets assume that you are paying the person 60k per year. If his chair helped him/her work 10 minutes more per day, how many days would it take for the chair to pay for itself. Less then you think. I leave the math as a take home exercise.
The home of the 3D Socialization and Interaction Engine
I saw a show on either Food TV or the Travel Channel about a dot com's office. I was a totally renovated warehouse with opulant solid stainless steel garage doors used to separate a party room into a conference room, they had a kitchen that THE COMPANY, not the employees, stocked with everything you needed. Peanut Butter and Jelly, Cavier, cappucino, steaks, bakery style cookies, every kind of pop imagineable, penguin mints, spaghetti....basically a fully stocked kitchen with everyhing under the sun. Honestly when have you EVER been able to do much more cooking then warming up something in the microwave on a lunch break just due to time contraints alone!? They employees would come in when they pleased, they had a room full of arcade games, air hockey, pool and foosball. It was stupid! where was the server room? I bet they had MEGA ridiculous sized server's with no regard for budgetary concerns. They made the small project that we are undergoing here look cheap! Most DotComs were smaller then ONE building on our campus, yet we have a yearly budget much less then the total they spent! I am finally getting a new chair (not an Aeron). The chair I am currently sitting on it probably about 15-20 years old. Not only did most Dot Coms have a LOUSY business plan, they spent money like Microsoft yet they didn't have Microsoft style money. I'd expect to see this kind of stuff at Microsoft because they can afford it, but at a START UP??!?!?!?
Gorkman
A little Aeron Chair humor for everyone... it goes on for about of week of comics...
It occurred to me though that a management staff who found that their workforce likes the chairs can probably eke quite a bit of extra hours out of their employees by providing simple luxuries like this. I haven't used one long-term, so I can't address the "sandpaper" issue, but I did find that my back wasn't sore after sitting in one for a day.
Also it should be noted that with all the formerly VC-saturated companies going out of business lately, the average going price for an Aeron on Ebay is around $3-400
Sometimes, when using my RealDoll, I get repetitive motion injuries. I wonder if Herman Miller could combine the Aeron design with the RealDoll... Maybe then it would be OSHA certified. I don't want to have to sue RealDoll for my injuries, the jury might think I'm a weirdo or something, even though they would probably all be secretly wishing for some private time with the RealDoll.
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Wow a chair.....Wow a $700 chair....I have a chair, its a Zeus Ultra 500 Kitchen Chair (yes I made that up) it has great features, like a spot to park your ass in and a high tech back support to lean against. Really who spends that much money on a chair? For $700 you could get a Tyan Dual Athlon mother board and two 1.4Ghtz AMD Athon T-Bird (and yes, you can use them with the dual athlon board, no matter what Tyan and AMD say).
"
I can honestly say that this is not been a problem I've ever had with my Aeron. I just don't think I want to know what you're doing with the chair to cause that.
I love my Aeron, but only when it's properly adjusted - which is pretty much most of the time, unless someone else uses it, and messes it all up. Same thing happens every time someone drives my car, and it takes me 2 days to get the seat ajustments 'just right' again.
Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...
ironic dont you think that it was posted by tim
wasnt he the man who bought slashdot and took it public
hmm investors
dont like them but their money buys lots of sweet toys like cowboyneals chair (-;
regards
john jones
While some of these companies seem to have gone overboard on items of little legitimate business value, I wonder if stuff like the Aereon maybe doesn't represent an attempt to move to a new work paradigm, ie, don't stuff your employees into the cheapest furniture you can find. Give them comfortable, pleasant surroundings and they'll be more productive. I'm wondering if there weren't at least a couple of "new economy" principals who thought "new economy, new work paradigm" etc etc.
I swear, they made Information Technology a major. It's essentially Computer Science Lite: take the introductory computer science courses (CS1&2, Data Struct. & Algorithms), strip out the "oh so hard" higher math requirements, and tag on a bunch of management courses.
One very easy, very cheesy, very useless and stupid major. Jumping into IT because the engineering/computer science schools are "too hard" is looked upon about as highly as jumping into the management school for the same reason. That is to say, we point, laugh, and then block all traffic from their compromised IIS dormroom servers. Well, the few that these idiots are capable of setting up, anyway.
And all along I thought they traded them for advertising.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
When it comes to the .com I bet most employees were being paid far more than their true worth to the company.
No offence.
A web designer is only worth $50000/year if they bring in atleast $150000/year.
And I don't mean as a team.
I'm 6'3 and I love my Aeron. Of course, I bought a large (you know, of course, they come in small, medium, large...) Most companies buy mediums, which can be a bit tight, and the smalls dig into my shoulder blades, too.
I have lower back problems, and I'm a contractor, which means if I don't work, I don't eat. With "normal" office chairs I used to have at least 1 or 2 episodes/year of pain so bad I couldn't work for a couple of days. Since I bought my Aeron 3 years ago I have not had a single episode. True, they are the current trendy status symbol, but they work, and AFAIC they're worth it.
Obviously I joined the wrong company. MY company never had fancy Aeromajiggy chairs... although I do think we really needed them cause we were too busy sitting on our Futon playing on our Playstation. True story.
Pinky: "What are we going to do tomorrow night Brain?"
Brain: "I would tell you Pinky but this 120 char limi
For large people, chairs and work surfaces get to be really important issues.
After a lot of comparison shopping, I recently got a BodyBilt chair. The range of adjustability is great, the memory foam is terrific, but the large, shaped pommel of the seat, the waterfall seat edge, the large padded swivel arms, and the "relaxed/alert" natural seating position make this the most comfortable long term seating I've ever had. About 50% more than an Aeron, but a really terrific chair. http://www.bodybilt.com
When I die, I'm getting buried in this thing!
As discussed on slashdot a little over 2 years ago (I still want one):
http://www.snowcrash.se/products/netsurfer/
"And like that
i was referring solely to stupidity, and that the 'Aeron symptom' is not restricted just to .com.
/years/ of service! No expensive chairs needed to keep people in DEC.
Eg. Compaq bought Digital for it's service wing. At DEC we worked as a tight-knit group. Though the staple calls were PCs, we'd take calls on anything and everything: printers, terminals, PC servers, VAX, networking kit, etc.. if you thought you could figure it out you were free to go spend time looking up stuff, asking other people and/or read and try figure it out - and if you couldn't you sent an engineer out.
You could also do sideline projects. Eg setup a website if it was useful. When they transitioned from the old VAX terminal-based call logging system to a windows based thing, a guy in our group wrote an application to present a windows front-end to the contract data stored in the VAX systems. I setup and adminstered the server (linux for scripting and network reliability. NT had problems holding multi-hour ftp sessions) that took big database dumps from the VAX systems across Europe and shared it out via Samba to that windows front-end. My first real-world experience of Unix systems admin.
I believe that's about good as it can get for a desktop customer technical support agent. consequently, people actually stayed with DEC. The group i was in, of about a hundred people, lost only a few people per year. which, as i found out later in compaq, is an amazing achievement in a call-centre. other, longer-standing tech-support groups had people working there with many
Ie, people stayed with DEC. knowledge was acrued - it didn't just walk out after a year or less. and the knowledge was wide-ranging cause people were allowed scope and variety in the customer problems they dealt with.
Enter Compaq.... for about 6 months or so not much happened. life went on as usual. then they got around to 'integrating' us. we all had to do the Compaq induction course, where a video explained to us that Compaq was the major supplier of high-end financial transaction systems (eh, no. that's tandem - you just bought 'em), that compaq was at the forefront of RISC technology and Unix experience (no.. that's Digital, you bought us) aswell as the usual PC facts and figures.
Eventually, we were migrated from our cluttered but cosy DEC offices to the Compaq call centre. A big 5 story building with big open floors full of open-plan desks - it looked soulless to me, like a factory.
Initially, our old DEC group stayed together and we continued to do the same work we did. But we lost most of our test kit, old terminals, printers, pc's, DEC servers, etc.. couldn't have that cluttering up the desk farm. no instead we could use the compaq test kit - course you need a 'coach' with you to use them and course it's all just compaq PCs. Bit by bit things changed. next, they moved us all to different parts of the building. we lost more privileges. no longer did we have adminstrator access to our own PCs. once they tried to make everyone keep their jackets and personal belongings in a cloak-room at the beginning of each floor each morning - as if we were kids in primary school!
The final insult was when they completely integrated the (remaining) people with the original Compaq people. Compaq support is divided into Consumer (presario), Business (deskpro) and Enterprise (servers and anything high-end). Despite reassurances that we'd be integrated into the appropriate group depending on ability, they just lumped us all into various parts of the Business group - including the DEC second level guys! We were people who used to take calls on and troubleshoot problems with terminals, servers, print-servers and more !! A lot of us even had done the Compaq ACE and ASE courses - cause digital did support for Q even before they were bought out! but we were all put in the "did you reinstall windows?" group.
i'd already gone by then though...
they bought us and then slowly stripped away everything that made taking support calls at DEC a job worth being interested in. until we were either drones who apathetically took their X number of calls per day in between browsing job sites - like the compaq classic people... or we had left.
but they had $700 chairs at each desk....
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
If you spend most of your time in a chair, then $700 is not to much to spend. It is better to have a good chair, monitor, keyboard, and mouse (or other pointer input) than it is to have the latest and fastest CPU, or the largest disks.
Now, I personally don't have $700 for a chair (Heck, I had a hard time with $700 for a car), but I haven't been too skimpy either, and in my home office, the chair, monitor, keyboard, and pointing devices cost as more than the machine itself did.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
I managed to pick up a new one at a rock bottom price from a friend who sells them for a living. He told me it was the best one they did. Yes, its true, you don't get sweaty, but then I don't ever remember that being a problem in the first place. My biggest problem is that around the front on chair there is a hard plastic piece which holds the mesh. This constantly dug in and made it unconfortable to code at. I tried everything, all the adjustments and eventually sold the thing and went back to a more standard chair! One interesting thing the guy told me is that when people report the chairs broken, they check something called the "Shag Pin" on the base of the chair, if that has gone, someone has almost certaintly had sex on it!!!
HAHA, this is awesome, I was hoping someone would catch on to RPI RIP, I mean RPI.... ...."Why not change the world"
What kind of school quote is that, "why not change the administration" ;)
Much better
okok, they're not that bad actually, but spending like almost 50-100 GRAND for the new logo, I could have designed it ;) Take a peak at it: www.rpi.edu
L8r ;)
-Kleenx
Class of '02
[Dundie Accent ON] You call that a Chair? That's not a chair. Now this is a chair.
Krispy Cream is people
$750 for chairs plus lord knows how much for fancy cubes times employees can't help the company burn-rate.
But you're right, it's more of a warning sign than a cause.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
The Aeron is THE BEST TASK CHAIR that I have EVER encountered. After years of working at places that have back destroying office chairs, I am SO happy that I have an Aeron now. I consider it part of the benefit plan!
As for the cost, yes it is a premium but a new good quality task chair (that will last) will cost at least $300. Probably more. And if the place you work has a sense of style, well, the sky is not necessarily the limit on cost.
I swear by MacOS X. Although I use to swear *at* MacOS 9...
> Personally, I think Aerons suck. I'm sitting in one now and my back is killing me--I can never get this damn chair adjusted right, or to get it to stay in a configuration close to comfortable for very long.
.coms to the big internet in the sky.
So... How many Aeron chairs did Slashdot buy with its IPO money?
Also, your post indicates that the $700 wasted on the chairs is only a small part of the TCO. It's the time employes waste adjusting the chairs instead of surfing the Web that's sending the
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
People make a similar mistake in regard to repetitive strain injuries (RSI). Usually it's something like, "I don't have any (whatever) and I use the computer all the time!" What they fail to notice, though, is different body types, attitudes (e.g. type A personality), and so on, all influence the potential for RSI.
I know the sweaty ass syndrome very well. I have a high-backed leather executive chair, which means if the room is even partially hot and i'm actively doing something for a few hours, i get the sweaty ass... lol
Shit adds up at the bottom...
For almost $1,800.00(us) this damn chair better have the beer open and well, we won't go there. However, i must say it looks nice.......
... I've some Karma to burn, so here it goes anyways: More informative than Slashdot
There are many truly great chairs, but the best are made by Hal Taylor: http://www.haltaylor.com
They are custom built rocking chairs, sized for the individual. Rocking chairs are much better on the back than stationary chairs, and these have bent wood backs that not only support the lumbar region, but flex as you move, supporting the entire back. No brace under the seat between the rockers, so you can kick your legs all the way under you. Also, they are the most stunningly beautiful works of functional art I have ever seen. They aren't cheap, but they are the best.
"Ignorance is not innocence, but sin." --Robert Browning
Oh, and one more thing... I always like to have space to put my wrists on the table when I type. Does anyone else think that the way most computer terminals are set up is unconfortable?
Just another Random Rant from someone who should really know better by now. :P
"Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental." -Slashdot
I'm presently working at a high-tech startup. I'm paid well, by startup standards. But we're sitting in cubes. I get about two solid hours of distraction-free time each day, and the rest of the time is full of the verdammt laserprinter starting up, or one of the nearest ten phones ringing, or somebody starting a conversation with my neighbor while walking up from fifteen yards away, or my other neighbor fighting with his wife on the phone, or...
Now, what good is that big paycheck doing? I can't go out and *buy* better working conditions.
Thanks, I'd rather have a pleasant work environment than a big paycheck.
The Aeron chair definately appears nice, but I've had the same huge old comfortable office chair for years and my butt would miss it, even if my mind didn't ;)
I think the keys to stick with, in chair buying, are:
- a metal main structure (base/leg[s]/armrests)
- a very comfortable and cushy fabric for any part of the chair that touches the body.
- no problem swiveling, tilting, and comfortably laying all the way back or sitting totally, for lack of a better word, "erect".
I guess what it comes down to is, at least your not on the floor.
[FYI] another Aeron chair link:
http://www.comfortliving.com/aeron.htm
- tre
http://piclabs.com
Much obliged, AC.
Sweaty-Ass is nothing. I literally suffered from 'roids just about every day while I was sitting in the regular, cheapo chair at my old company. I bought my own Aeron (yes, they were too cheap) and my ass has been happy ever since. Consider how much you pay for a comfortable car, and then consider how much more time you spend sitting in your chair. $600 is trivial for the amount of hapiness it brings.
Well, there seems to be a decent amount of people who disapprove of the Aeron chairs.
;) Of course i'll pay shipping! And us poor fools who can barely afford the $35,000 a year tuition (yes, we got a $360 million dollar grant, and they hike tuition anyway), can have one of these chairs. (Lets not go into how much books costs!)
;) So act now and help save a poor suffing boy's behind.
I would like to offer a solution. To help us po' college boys who cant afford a $700 chair, but have to sit in a chair for 12 hours a day trying to code to finish while skipping all meals (well, mac and cheese is TECHNICALLY a meal). *takes another deep breath* I would be willing to offer to take the chairs off people hands
For the bunch of us who dont like to go into the fancy management rooms and steal them (I know ppl who have done that), we are sitting on what might as well be concrete.
For all those who sponser a po' boy, you will recieve a photo with your new donation, as well as a life story
I wish I had my Aeron chair again. We used to work in one of those HQ Global rent-an-office places where they provided every office with an Aeron. Once we got our own office space, the folks put in charge of facilities cheaped out and got some standard swiveling chairs that provide no back support. That Aeron was sooooo adjustable. It goes to show what you get when you work at a place that knows what the customers want versus a place that is trying to pinch a penny and doesn't give a crap about how you feel.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
I used to work for Sprint, a not-dot-com and they used the Aeron chair exclusively. They seemed to do all right.
Well, that's the problem with our big brains: they trick us into needing to do/have something really clever to validate our intelligence. Then we have status symbols which come back to bite us. Who said that we had to have leather chairs to be important? I use a cloth-upholstered chair and can code away for hours while avoiding the dreaded sweaty-ass. Maybe we should reevaluate what our furniture priorities are.
One thing to keep in mind is that decent office chairs are expensive. They cost hundreds of dollars. Yes the Aeron chairs are more expensive, but if you consider how much a "lower-end" chair costs, it really doesn't cost that much more.
BTW, I love my Aeron chair, never had a problem with ruining my pants or anything like that. I guess different people like different things....
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
I wish more people would realize this -- chairs, or more generally "things", are not expensive to a company. Sure, each of us might balk at spending $700 on a chair, but that amount of money falls below the radar of most companies, compared to their biggest expense: employees. I don't have the exact numbers, but in silicon valley the starting salary for tech workers has to be at least $50,000/yr (anything less, and the employees couldn't even afford to live in a shack in a garlic field in Gilroy). Add to that the cost of providing health insurance, retirement benefits, stock options, office space, electricity, a computer, etc., and it costs the company roughly double the employee's salary per year to have the employee work there. Now, compare the cost of a $700, one-time expense for a chair to the cost of a $100,000 yearly expense for the employee. Sure, the employee's going to spend a day or two fiddling with the settings. But over the course of a year, if a comfortable chair increases the employee's productivity by just 1% (that's 5 minutes a day spent working rather than stretching ones back or standing at the window), the company gets an effective return on its investment in the first year! Personally, I have more faith in a company that is willing to spend money to optimize the productivity of its employees than a company that sacrifices employee performance to save a few dollars. "Penny wise, pound foolish," I believe, is the proverb that applies here.
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
I used to work for a Herman Miller dealer. If Compaq bought 1000+ Aerons they certainly didn't pay $700 each...probably more like $300 - 400 each (typical dealer discount for a big order would be 50|30 or better, or 65-70%, with margins around 10-20%). When you look at the costs of RSI, etc., if the chair helps, it's worth it. Of course if all of your employees are laid off a year after you buy them you won't get to see the payoff :)
Hello, I must be going. I'm here to say I cannot stay, I must be going.
Unfortunately, I have found this to be absolutely true. I worked for a company that had been around for 10 years doing software development, yet when the new management came in, the company went downhill until they laid off about 70% of the people 3 months ago. And, yes, they have a lot of extra Aeron chairs right now.
It would be interesting to see of the companies you listed, which ones actually bought Aeron chairs. Who knows, maybe it is linked :)
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
true ....
But have you ever sat in a "fart chair"?
If you don't know what a fart chair is, it's a chair that's been farted a lot in.
You can only fart so many times before the odour sticks to the chair.
When that happens you'll get a nice puff of fresh fart everytime you sit down.
Steve Balmer is a moron. There, I said it.
:wq
True, but spending $700 on chairs when perfectly acceptable ones can be had for a fraction of that price
a) wastes money that could be better spent elsewhere; and
b) indicates the sort of attitude towards money that should have had investors running for cover
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
The chair's are a BAROMETER.
That's like blaming the weather on the BAROMETER.
The article is pointing to these chairs as a useful guide to how much a company is wasting the venture capital they get.
i.e. a BAROMETER
Boy it's hot in here, stupid thermometer.
Krispy Cream is people
i'd guess that the poster doesn't have the chair set up correctly and therefore fidgets quite a bit, meaning extra wear on the clothes. I would just like to address an overlooked issue regarding the cause of the so called clothes wear, if it can be so called. The above poster assumes that the original complaint is valid, and that the chair is indeed the cause of the wear. I waste more time in my Aeron than you can shake a stick at, and I move about in it as well, never to notice any wear on my pants. This makes me wonder about what the hell the original poster's clothes were made out of. After all, the Aeron's mesh is plastic, and none of my nylon, cotton, etc. pants have become the victim of this plastic. So the clothes of the poster must have been softer and less durable than nylon, cotton or soft vinyly plastic... Damnit I thought we Slashdotters delt with the perils of dressing in newspaper long ago!
**AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
Actually, too comfortable sitting position in a chair isn't good for one. When you don't move (after you get just into that comfortable way tos it) your muscles get less oxygen and start acting up. It's healthier to change your sitting position every now and then, like two, three times an hour. That said, an easy to configure chair would help with that tremendously...
As a former Herman Miller employee up until recently, I have worked on the Aeron and Equa II (most customizable and my personal fav.) line.
When talking with a local Herman Miller sales representative here in Toronto, he disclosed that the employee discount is 65%. So for that C$1000 Aeron chair with all the options, he gets it for C$350.
I smiled when handing over my Visa.
The wonderful high-tech mesh fabric acts like sandpaper and wears holes in my pants.
The reason that your company is going under isn't the expensive chairs. The world just isn't ready for www.WoodPants.com right now.
Carl G. Jung
--
"With one breath, with one flow, You will know Synchronicity" -La Policia
Don't buy till ya try. Really, the most important aspect of either one is how they make YOU feel. Not the price tag, not a big list of specs or features, NOTHING.
meh.
I love Aeron chairs..but not everyone does. So what's the point of this? Wooo...people like different things!
Anyway, I inherited a bad back from my mom's side of the family. So I bought an Aeron chair for home and loved it. Yes, you ABSOLUTELY must adjust it for you, and you MUST get the right size. There is more than one! The place I'm working at now has them for everyone, and they aren't a dotcom. This is the second company I've been with (that wasn't a failing dotcom) that did this. So it isn't really a dotcom problem, people just like to say it is.
Also, after trying mine out for a while my mom got an Aeron too and loves it. No more back pain for either of us.
there are two universal truths. one is that there is no pointing device that everyone likes. the other is that there is no such thing as a universally good chair. Aeron chairs are too big, too deep, and have crappy huge fat arms that get in the way and are useless. Thus, for me, they are an expensive device of torture. The HON chairs are a lot nicer.
I dunno -- my favorite chairs are the office chairs built in the 50s and 60s. They're comfortable and sturdy, and I can sit for many hours in them. They go for between $5-10 at any flea market or thrift store.
(Also, 20-30 year old drafting stools are much better than the $60 POS they sell in Office Depot for all you amateur architects and engineers out there)
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Right on! I bought an Aeron C size, but the damn thing wobbled side-to-side a bit, which was REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING. (I think it's only the C ones that did that, but my legs were too long for a B--and my big fat ass didn't fit! :-)
:-) I can do that again happily.
So I returned it and bought a Freedom chair (the one with the headrest, it kicks ass) from the nearest place in the bay area I could find. It makes the Aeron look cheap (it's more than $1000 USD with the headrest), but it's just amazing. I was in a car accident a year ago and after it I was having problems sitting and coding for hours and hours on end, but with this chair (and chiropractic
I know that spending more than $1000 USD for a chair (which is more than $1500 CAD, so it seemed even worse for me since I'm Canadian, eh) seems insane, but think of how many hours you spend in your office chair, and then think of how many hours you spend in your car (even with a long commute). So which do you think you get more benefit out of having extra comfort with?
If anyone here is thinking of buying an Aeron, at least sit in a Freedom chair first...
Seriously, they probably have 35-40 Aeron chairs and 4 employees. It's really funny now--now that I have a new job, that is :) Before, not so funny.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
an entire china hutch?? complete with royal ellington with the blue paisley pattern.... nah, so there..........
IBM, SGI, Wieden + Kennedy and hundreds of other successfull companies buy the Aeron chairs by the hundreds and thousands. If you sit in a chair all day for a living it makes sense for your employer to spend a premium to keep your ass in your seat so you can keep working, and in some cases I believe that they may even get a break on their insurance rates since their employees are sitting in an ergonomically correct chair. $700 isn't that much for a chair, unless you furnish your office in Costco style. If you have an Aeron chair and it's not comfortable to you you may have the wrong size. They come in "A" (petite) "B"(medium) and "C" (bigass). Most people can asses(s) their proper size.
I got one of these Aeron babies, and for me, it was worth every penny.
;-)
I'm a writer. I spend hours and hours at the keyboard. Hell, I'm in that overpriced Aerons more than I'm in my own bed.
I've also got a funky back condition, with almost no lumbar curvature. I needed the damned chair, and after I got it adjusted right, a whole lot of pain went away.
Yeah, maybe buying Aerons for the entire staff of a startup wasn't exactly a sound business decision. But as someone pointed out, that kind of decision was also often accompanied by other money-burning financial decisions, like extravagant offices, free auto leases, on-site massages, catered staff meetings and whatnot.
Having an entire office of Aerons became a status symbol, rather than what it should've been -- a good ergonomic decision to help keep people healthy and happy. But like I said, we could pick just about any stereotypical extravagance of the go-go/boom-boom late 90s Internet startup frenzy and say much the same thing.
Still love my chair though.
I don't know what Timothy's deal is but Aeron chairs are the most comfortable chairs around. I have one at home and at work and I couldn't live without them. If you can't get comfortable in your Aeron, then it is not adjusted right. Either that or you're an alien.
You can find very nice old fashionned wood swivel chairs at Pottery Barn and the like - most comfortable thing I have ever sat in. And it creaks when you lean back - don't get that in an Aeron.
-josh
regardless, the aeron will work for people who are 1) of average size, 2) select the right size of aeron (there are three - maybe you should look into the large version?), 3) want to maintain proper posture while being comfortable and 4) will put the time and effort into adjusting it. i never said it was the end-all be-all of good chairs.
the "sweaty-ass" is a product of sitting in a warmish room in a well cushioned chair for far too long. not sitting on my legs or feet - just sitting. i know people of all different body shapes that experience it. it seems to be a factor of the environment, the chair and the way you sit. obviously, if you're giving your skin some room to breath (like, for example, sitting on the aeron's mesh), you shouldn't have any trouble. if it's parked in a cushion and can't get air too easily, it's more of a problem.
anyway, yes, i know that people are different. that's why the aeron is such a good chair - you can customize it to fit you. yes, it won't work for everybody. but with proper time and effort, it can work for a majority i'm sure. i'd venture to say that more people would find a properly adjusted aeron comfortable than would your standard $70 office chair.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
Precisely. Compared to the cost of hiring a programmer, $700 is a piss in the ocean - if they really are significantly better than the competition. It's like fast computers and big monitors - if it helps people be happier and more productive, it's cheap at the price.
.coms, it is a good idea to provide as best as possible for your employees, but at some point the bottom line must be watched.
Until it becomes a race to see who can provide more and cooler comforts for their programmers and web geeks, while still not having a revenue stream, or even actual defined goals or work for said programmers etc.
Even outside of the
Precisely. Compared to the cost of hiring a programmer, $700 is a piss in the ocean - if they really are significantly better than the competition. It's like fast computers and big monitors - if it helps people be happier and more productive, it's cheap at the price.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
compaq's call centre in dublin has Aeron chairs at every desk. 4 floors with hundreds of desks on each floor..
.com thing.
it was one of the things they tried to impress the DECies with when they were integrating us into the Q. Strange... most of the DECies have left, Q has dropped Alpha..
Aeron chair stupidity -> not just a
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
True, but spending $700 on chairs when perfectly acceptable ones can be had for a fraction of that price
Perfectly acceptable chairs can NOT be had for a fraction of the price. Most 'acceptable' office chairs cost about $500+, so while $700 is a bit high it's not a huge difference from $500. Also, quite a few companies lease their office equipment instead of buying it, so the monthly price difference really isn't that much.
Those $50-200 chairs at Office Depot or where-ever ARE NOT acceptable. I have yet to find even one of those chairs that has a back that tilts seperately from the chair seat. If the back and seat tilt at the same time the seat lifts up your legs and cuts off the circulation, this is VERY uncomfortable. Also, the quality of most of those chairs is very lacking, most are very flimsy self-assembled chairs.
If you want a good quality, semi-ergonomic, pre-assembled chair you're going to be paying $300-400+.
There's a chair shop around here that ONLY sells chairs, the cheapest chair they had cost about as much as the Aeron and their most expensive was about $1200, none looked anywhere near as nice as the Aeron and the cheap ones were lacking many of the features. I personally haven't sat in an Aeron but most every review I've seen of the chair says it's very very comfortable.
-Zane
This sig is worse than my last.
I worked as a consultant for a large Canadian law firm which shall remain nameless which put these chairs in ALL of their boardrooms.
I use another barometer, though. They deployed MS Site Server v3 on their intranet. 'Nuff said.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
Jan,
I agree with you totally regarding *some* dot-com employees need/deserve $700 chairs.
But I also agree with the Salon article... you don't have to go through many dot-com auctions to see that they were buying Aerons for *everybody*. The last one I went to in Austin for Agilion (sp?) was amazing... it looks like every seat in the place (secretaries, conference rooms, programmers, janitors) had an Aeron! There were brand new Aerons still in the plastic wrap sitting there presumably for people yet to be hired. They had small Aerons and large Aerons (every though the medium fits virtually everybody)!
-Rob
(And don't even get me started on Foosball tables!)
--Rob
Sit on a Physioball instead of a chair - it's better for your body, posture and strength.
The Office Depot/Ikea chairs don't qualify as being 'ergonomically correct' You cant find a real office chair for under $500 and those are the barebones models.
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
The company I work for has SOME Aerons around - The .com division has them, as well as some others, so I've gotten to try them, and I don't like them, FOR ME.
Back when I was working from home, I went out and looked at chairs - LOTS of chairs. I don't remember the brand I bought, but for about $300 I got a chair that fits ME, which is all that counts
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
And damn did I want a regular chair. The fabric is rough, and that stupid back support thing always felt like it was jabbing be in the spine. I prefer regular chairs, with the hydralic hieght adjustment.
This is the best chair I have ever sat on. My Office Depot $150 special at home that I used to love, I can barely stand.
F*cked company sells a mousepad that sums up my opinion quite handily.
Personally, I think Aerons suck.
McSpew must be a vi bigot. <grin>
At $700 that sure beats the standard $800 chairs we had at IBM. When I started to develop pain in my wrists, they got my a slightly better chair (which an ergonomist fitted to me) for something like $1500. I think $700 is a reasonable place in this market. And it looks cool.
If I'm trying to hire competent software engineers or web designers, worrying about spending $700 on an Aeron chair is ridiculous. Do the math: At (very conservatively) $70,000 a year for salary and benefits, if having a nice chair makes the person even 2% more productive (or allows them to work even 2% longer per week) then it very quickly more than pays for itself.
And that doesn't even factor in hiring costs, which for a software engineer hired through a recruiter can easily exceed $20,000. If you want to look at money questionably spent during the dot-com boom, how about companies paying headhunters 30% or more of the first year's salary for a new hire?
I spent a bit of time arguing with a previous boss about how crappy the USD$400+ chairs with custom fabric were, lousy adjustments, thick foam that didn't provide any sort of support. I bought an aeron for home with most of the bells and whistles and have been very comfortable with it. To answer previous comments, take the time to adjust the chair, don't slide your butt back and forth across the mesh and it won't act like a cheesegrater. I have found that sitting incorrectly in these chairs isn't comfortable, so if you slouch or sit on your feet get some 30 dollar used office thing.
Gun control is hitting what you aim at
I don't know what type of chairs we use here at the office, but they aren't cheap. The boss has a very simply philosophy regardng equipment: get very good ergonomic chairs (~$1000), good computers with large hi-res monitors, and save money on eveything else. Hell, the boss's main desk is a folding buffet table like you can buy at Sam's Club. Spend the money on the important things, keeping the staff healthy and productive, rather than on status symbols like fancy desks or "designer" chairs.
I sat in an Aeron for around five years in my previous job and darn near shelled out the bucks when I moved to Atlanta to take it with me. I miss it and never had an unconfortable day sitting in it.
Jim Harry
Oh yeah, and anyone who spends 700 fucking dollars on a chair deserves to go broke. IMHFO. For that price it had better massage my back, do my taxes, and wipe my ass automatically. :-) - it does do all that - and it sucks on your toes too! if you're into that kinda thing, anyway...
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
...my offices would be furnished with more reasonably priced furniture. If an employee wanted an Aeron for comfort, he can either pay for it out of his own pocket, or submit a request for the Aeron. I'll only honor the request if the person has a medical condition requiring the support, or if the person believes that his productivity will improve as a result. If as a result, productivity from this person does not improve, then the chair will be removed from his desk and he'll get a regular office chair. I pay my employees to work, not to goof off.
Flatulence Filter
. The puffy, activated-charcoal-filled cushion will trap both the noise AND the odor of your low-end emissions. Most office chairs are odor free until you stand up...
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
Compared to the ridiculous business models of many of these companies, the decision to order Aeron chairs looks like the Marshall Plan
I've sat in my friend's Aeron, and it rules. You have to adjust it to YOU, the person whose buttocks will be ruling the seat of power.
If you're going to be sitting in a chair for up to 10 hours a day for a couple of years, isn't a measly $700 a fantastic investment?! And not just from a user's POV: what sane manager wouldn't want to make his geeks happy and comfortable?
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Setting up Linux is less trouble than this. I can have a box up and running in an hour if not less fully configured before i'd get this cjair set just right for me!...but it does look cool.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Of course, there's no way in hell I'd pay the $700 for one of these at home . . . but the laid-off VP whose office I lifted this one from doesn't seem to mind.
anyway, it really isn't as bothersome as i originally made it out to be. it takes a little time, but it's well worth it.
hope this helps, should you ever have the chance to sit in one.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
Everyone here agrees that the chairs are less a cause and more a symbol of the .com fall from grace, but it's more important to evaluate why the money was spent in the first place.
It seems to me that the relitively young executives who recieved hundreds of millions in Venture Capital - since they didn't have to really earn it - failed to value it properly, perhaps due to youtht and inexperience (certainly not the fase for all) and perhaps simply due to market conditions which presented the delusion that money grew on trees, since there was no incentive at the time to make a proffit. Let's look at that for a minute. It's the CEO's responsibility to manage a company for success, usualy determined by it's stock price. The market seemed unconcerned with profit, or even revenue so why should the CEOs. Why not buy $750 chairs for every employee? It's not like we need to spend the money on technical infastructure, or support or production, after all the market thinks we're doing just fine. Look at our stock price! (circa July 1999).
My point is, while the blame for the fallout can be placed on CEOs who allowed their companies to make frivolous use of VC, they were only responding to the market, which told them they were doing fine. I blame stock analysts who started gaining celebrity status by whowing up on CNBC with wild preditions which were of course self-fulfilling prophecies, particularly in light of the tremendous number of uninformed indevidual investors - willing to follow anyone who stood up to lead - that flooded the markets durring those years.
Come on, we can't blame the chairs.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
and I thought code red was bad.
goto NULL;
I go to a very small, very well-endowed liberal arts college with a well-earned reputation for intesne academics... people tend to live in the main library. Within the past few years, the college filled the ground floor of said library with Aerons... Student reaction has been mixed, from the informal serveys I've done... some folks like them, some hate them (remember, these are students using chairs that they don't even have the pretense of "owning"... so they don't or don't know how to adjust them, often)... As a computer science major, though, who spends more time in the computer lab than the library, I'd have to say that I'd prefer either newer toys there, AC in nonacademic buildings, or those nifty beanbag constructs that I hear Oberlin's got...
I think this MPEG of Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer flipping out like a rhesus monkey on crystal meth says more about what Aeron chairs do to people than any ergonomics study you could come up with. And yes...as frightening as it may seem....it's real.
Bowie J. Poag
...I like these chairs. We had them at Earthlink, where I did tech support for about 9 months. Not everyone liked them, but most did. For those that don't like them, I recommend simply using a different chair - I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that. As many others have said, they do take some adjustment and getting used to.
We also had Microsoft ergonomic split keyboards, which I absolutely hated. After getting used to them I can use them now, but I still don't like them. This is probably because I never learned to type properly.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Many many years ago, there used to be a shop near my University that sold these. They had one of the fully reclining balans chairs (which, from looking at the web site, they don't seem to do any more). It's the wierdest sensation to sit in a chair and throw your weight backwards until the chair tips onto the next rail, and keep going until you end up nearly horizontal. You have to have blind faith that the chair is going to take it, and you won't end up landing on your head. But once you get there, it's the most comfortable chair you'll ever sit on.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Yeah, it's 700 bucks, doesn't wipe my ass or do taxes, but the company does provide massages every other week :P
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
On a more serious note. Working in desks in front of computers slowly ruins our postures, our bobies and our eyesight. In twenty years or so people will wonder why we ever put up with working conditions like that. Maybe the companies who are buying these chairs aren't being so stupid. If the companies are around long enough it may help them to avoid health and safety litigation!
I've got one at home, I just love it, and, well, lets just say I've never had a problem with it wearing out MY pants.
$0.02 (CDN)
There is only one True Chair Vendor: Lay-Z-Boy While it may not always be practical, NOTHING compares to a Lay-Z-Boy. Period. The armrests work great as optical mouse pads, you can sleep in it if necessary/desired, you will never, ever have back problems. Granted, they are a little expensive and require a creative solution to monitor positioning, but they're still a good deal cheaper than an Aeron.
I lied, they do still sell them. Take a look at http://www.stokke-furniture.no/rot/html/h_gravity. html
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Wonder which one they could be talking about?
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
I went through four or five typical Office Max chairs - steadily escalating in price - before doing the sensible thing and buying an Aeron.
I would have saved myself a lot of cash had I just bought it first thing, but I couldn't justify spending that kind of dough. The fact is, when you spend twelve hours a day on your ass, it's really not an area you wanna economize on. It's not like I wipe my ass with Faberge eggs or anything, but an Aeron is just worth it.
And don't skimp on mattresses or air conditioning, either.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
As one gets older one needs some foam padding in the seat to absorb the tones of man's built-in sub-woofer.
Why is it so difficult to believe that other people's experience is different than your own?
I've never in my life experienced anything remotely like "sweaty ass". Perhaps you had all your previous chairs adjusted wrong?
I doubt it. More likely, you have a very different body type and behavior from me. I'm tallish (6'3"), and the back of the Aeron bit into my shoulder blades, for example. It gives no neck support whatsoever, so is tiring over long periods, and the armrests didn't come up high enough that I could rest both elbows on them without slumping my shoulders, stressing the muscles in my upper back. You can't sit cross-legged in the damn things without a cushion - that sandpaper material shreds your ankles. Do you get the idea? I'm different from you, and no amount of fiddling with ergonomic levers will change that.
I would just like to saybrag that I have had sex with five different women in my chair. I got the chair in 1986. It has a plush bottom and back, with metallic arm rests that are the perfect width & position for a lady to comfortably spread her legs for a nice bout of cunnilingus. It is wide, it is stained, is is comfortable, and it has many memories attached to it. It has seen me through DOS 3.0 on up to Mandrake 8.0.
My wife wants me to give it up but it just ain't gonna happen. I love you honey, but damn you just can't replace those memories.
In fact, one girl lost her virginity in that chair. Ain't no chair in the world that can make up for that, baby. Not an Aeron, not Python's Comfy Chair, not nothin.
Just wanted to share.
so, what they're saying is the only company to actually make money on the dot economy last year was Herman Miller?
cool. we've got a slew of aerons here, as well as their Resolve system. it's so sweet... replace cubicles with honeycombs...
i'd just hate to see the company that made our office system go out of business, just when i had my eye on a bunch of cool accessories
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
This is horrible. The comfy chiar site is slashdotted.
Now what will the Spanish Inquisition do for torture?
(Anwser: No one knows... because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition)
Automatically rotates to keep sunlight from glaring up your screen? man... now this is the pedestal every serious IT-professional needs!
I'm sitting in one of these bad boys right now and it's the best chair I've ever sat in. My only complaints are that the chair shifts out of adjustment every 3 or 4 weeks(lunbar moves up, arm rests move down). Our IT department got one of these chairs for everybody last year funny thing now is they're looking for ways to cut cost, thankfully I'm just the intern... :)
"Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his purposes" - William Shakespeare
My company is too cheap to buy these geek seats. I'm using a chair that looks like it's fromold WWII Army surplus. It's like a tank though--heavy and strong. I like it. Wouldn't trade it for the world.
Why is it made for people under 6 feet tall only?
um, they do make 3 different sizes...A,B,C
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Sweaty-ass is probably the worst side effect of long hours of coding but what I find helps is a bringing a nice heavy towel to sit on, after all a towel is a hitchhikers most important tool.
"Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his purposes" - William Shakespeare
I can't believe all the negative postings about Aeron chairs in the office. I had the fortune of having one at my last client site. They are great. Sure they are not for everyone.
But what really bothers me is the posts saying that they are a waste of money. They are not. Since when should programmers be forced to work in an office based on the cheapest stuff money can buy? The chair is very important for your health because a good one (properly configured) can save you from permanent aches and pains later in life. Another point is that they are a perk used to hire good employees. Let's say you are a good programmer and you have 2 job offers in front of you for a similar position. Now one job offers Aeron chairs for everyone and the other has the cheapest crap from Office Depot. Which would you choose? I know what I would do.
I've worked in an office with the cheapest furniture possible and you know what? It was ugly as all get-out. It was depressing to come to the office every day. I quit after a few months.
People, there is no reason that we have to work in sub-standard conditions. Aeron chairs are a bargain at twice the price. We should expect to work in nice offices and it shouldn't be considered a luxury. Why do some programmers feel like they should work with the cheapest stuff all day while their executives doubtless have huge offices with real wood furniture and better than (or at least more $$$$ than) Aeron chairs.
I think I would like this chair way more than my current office Aeron - but at $915 there's no way I (or my employer) would spring for one. I would sure love one for my home office though...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Second. If you're in the Boston area, there's a shop called Back Care Basics that sells them. Very hard to find in the US. Expensive, but worth trying out.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
For $750 I'll be happy to build you a wooden box just like mine.
Miko O'Sullivan
agreed. i spent a lot of time looking for a chair. i had previously used an aeron when i was running the network at a television station and was stunned by how comfortable it was when i sat in it. i left that job and kept thinking about the chair and how much i'd like to have one. i then recently became interested in correct posture - i spend way too much time at a computer to fuck around here. i've used only split keyboards for a long time, but i've been working toward reducing glare on my monitor, eye stress, etc. i decided that i needed to have a good chair to save my back, legs, arms, etc. after a lot of looking, i found the aeron to be good for me. one of the drawing factors was the mesh seat & back. i live in virginia, and we've been having uncharacteristically hot weather lately. i wanted something that would be comfortable, ergonomically correct, and save me from the irritation i frequently encounter when i sit in the wrong chair for a long time. the aeron happened to be the perfect match. i didn't pay for mine - it's on loan to me from the tv station i used to work at - but i would gladly pay $700 for one. when you consider how much back surgery costs, the quite literal pain in the ass that comes from sitting too long, etc., $700 really isn't all that much. i got mine because i felt it was a wise choice, comfort- and health-wise.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
A couple of thoughts:
1. Aerons, for office chairs, are inexpensive. A quick look online shows that my Haworth Improv (a fairly standard office chair) retails in the $850-900 range. In fact, very few people really have $100 office max cheapies because they break - remember, an office chair has someone's butt in it ~2000 hours a year. Most other chairs (including home-office specials and La-Z-Boys) have to go through a lot less wear and tear. Even a cheap office chair is $400 (you'd be surprise how little that gets you).
2. Aerons, for these companies, were good investments. I would be willing to bet that nothing that any of these companies put money into, from software to hardware to development to video games was cashed out for more than 50 cents on the dollar. Think about that; a $1500 computer goes for $150 a year later (10 cents on the dollar), but a 3-year-old Aeron is still $350 (50 cents on the dollar).
-Josh
Yeah but compaq could probably afford to do something like that. They've been around alot longer then companies like Pets.com and etoys.com. Etoys spent money on court cost's and lawyer fees as well when they tried to sue etoy.com. Some companies CAN afford these chairs. It's not a total barometer for everyone, just for companies who should have used the VC for their business gols instead of perks. Case in point, the hospital my wife had a surgery in about a year or so ago had Aerons for the nurses at the nurse station. Same thing with the hospital my nephew was born in. Do you really think that it costs the hospital 5 bucks for an asprin? That's what they charge the insurance companies.
Gorkman
I hate this chair! Hurts my back and the arm rests just flop around.
I would rather be in my $99.00 officemax special at home.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
What I should have said was nothing.
You may have followed the link to look over the remnants of Quokka. The Quokka photos are at the site of Cowan Alexander Equipment Group, who say:
See that? Leaders in technology! Leaders in getting thrashed by the dotcom stupidity ...
Funny you linked to my home office chair, the nice leather one at the top of the Backsaver web page. It was the chair Judge Ito used for the OJ trial.
Anyway, I have had the chair for 6 years now and it looks as good as when I first bought it. You just can't beat leather for an office chair. Very comfortable too. The leather breathes, so it doesn't get hot either. The armrests are wood, so you can stain them if they get a nick.
It was around $800 at the time. There were cheaper chairs, but few would have lasted 6 years and still remain in good shape.
... as the link in the post got ./ed pretty bad.
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
As a former Herman Miller employee up until recently, I have worked on the Aeron and Equa II (most customizable and my personal fav.) line. You would be surprised to know how much workmanship and hard work is put into these chairs. Every single chair is assembled, customized, and inspected by a person. No robots, no automation.
You would be surprised how much attention is given to a perfect chair. Not one chair leaves the plant unless it's absolutely perfect. Not even the tiniest scratch or ripple in fabric is acceptable. They don't "touch up" their chairs if something is found, it's totally disassembled and the effected part is disposed of. No touch-up paint, no stain removers.
My point is, you pay for the quality, workmanship, and sweat put into making the chairs absolutely perfect. Herman Miller isn't a company that screws around when it comes to doing it right. And believe me, it drove me nuts the first few weeks working there at their high standards of workmanship; but now I truly understand why.
- DanThe next type of business they ought to look at for an indication of excess is the local restaurants/catering companies. I spoke with a friend who recently took a position with a startup, and during on conversation, it was stated, "of course, we have our lunches catered in every day..." Not knowing at the time, I asked, "uh, tell me...is this by chance a startup?" Their affirmation was no surprise, really. It's simply amazing how careless people are with money when it's not their own.
There were these square concrete things with cloth tops scattered all over the damn place (stackable too!). Okay to sit on, just don't sit on an edge. If you're not seeing them, maybe the frat boys stole them for their houses...
Reboot macht Frei.
So how much you want for one? I'll give ya $50.00 for a black one in a large frame size, and I want all the goodies. Oh, can you deliver it too?
WTF? Over?
They are leased. A company I worked at being a good example. A lot of people thought everyone having an aeron chair was silly and a waste of money. So instead, they leased them for $25 per chair per year. Top that off with the cost of the chair negotiated down to $465... compare that to any other ergonomic chair and it is pretty much the same. So, yes, companys that purchase them are stupid but all in all it is a bad metric.
cvoid - satellites are cool
It's pronounced "thermometer".
I've sat on an Aeron and while I enjoy it, I have found the SteelCase Leap to be much more comfortable and adjustable.
garc
that's how we get everything at my workplace...as soon as someone gets laid off, scavenge their office for anything of value, and replace your stuff with it.
that's how i got my scroll mouse, 19" monitor and speakers.
i realize those things are piddley compared to a $700 chair, but over here the "dot-com" days are definitely over.
The seat I prefer offers fun, ergonomics, and 1/20th the cost- it is an exercise ball, available in a wide range of colors from a variety of manufacturers and distributors.
Some colors might be avoided depending on sex / gender (guys might avoid blue).
The biggest danger is the variety of puns and stupid jokes possible: that guy is always on the ball...
It's also a good idea to try it out in a big room, so that you can learn to balance.
You'd think I'd remember that. I seem to remember wood or plastic chairs in the center of the Student Union, well-padded chairs in the sides of the union and wooden chairs/tables down in the rathskeller. Where were the concrete chairs?
But I wouldn't buy one for myself, and I'd not waste the companies money on it, given my druthers. Damn nice chair.
Since Allied Riser is going out of business, wonder if I could score a chair or two on the cheap at auction?
Display some adaptability.
It's funny how we had years of the media praising the just-out-of-college dotcommer who started his own company and raised all this venture capital. Who then wasted all their money on pool tables and 700 dollar chairs. Now we see that maybe people in their early twenties are a little too stupid to run corporations. Though I guess in the dot-com world stupidity tends to extend to all age groups.
And I almost forgot. Reflex had Aeron chairs too.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
I love the Aeron chairs. I do believe that over 60% of dot.com VC money went to extravagent furniture like the Aeron, frivolous marketing or radical parties (where I used to work we had a private fireworks show off the coast at the Ritz Carlton and the B-52s played a private concert for us). I wish I could get an Aeron from a dot.com fire sale and save some money.
Why was this article published? The author goes on to state how the company spent money unwisely on chairs and then complains about the chairs? I would rather read some quality news like www.Designtechnica.com !!
they laid off about 70% of the people 3 months ago. And, yes, they have a lot of extra Aeron chairs right now.
The new management needs to learn to lay off people before buying Aeron chairs, otherwise you'll have more chairs than employees! No wonder your company went downhill. sorry..
cpeterso
The probability of a Dot-Com failing is directly proportional to the ratio of Aerons Chairs.
:-)
Actually, this is just one more metric in a convincing series: Guy Kawasaki says in his talks that there is a perfect 1:1 correspondence between people that exhibit the following four traits and those that will lose all of your money (Remember, Guy is a VC himself these days...):
1. They drive German cars.
2. They have goatees.
3. They wear too much cologne.
4. They wear anything by Prada.
Remember, these aren't a causality, but do exhibit perfect 1:1 correlation
Seriously, though, Aerons are good, but not the best of chairs, but they are indeed predictors of dotcom dain bramage. I knew it was time to get out of a company I worked for a couple of years ago when they outfitted the whole main conference room with a doxen and a half Aerons (separated by a floor-to-ceiling glass wall from the reception area, where it was absolutely useless for any sort of strategic planning or discussion of confidential client data (pretty much everything) making the entire room just a showpiece of the dotcom mentality...) Gee, that sentence was bad. Too bad...
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Disclaimer: My wife drafts for a local dealership. She's going to quit, but the propaganda is strong.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
All sorts of comments about the cost etc.
Has anyone looked at the cost of one ambulance chaser and a bad back/rsi lawsuit? That'll buy a LOT of chairs...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
I remember when they first came out they were around a $1000. I couldn't believe this chair cost more than my car.
A chair is a chair.
The Aeron chairs I've tried have not been adjustable enough (arm-rest height is critical; I need to have my elbows way up). That nylon burlap they use is a disaster. And the damped, geared cantilevering doesn't allow for a comforting rocking motion during pensive moments.
$700 was retarded enough for the lesser models; the most adjustable ones went for upwards of $1500.
I got a $199 Global at Staples or Office Depot or OfficeMax or somewhere.
Simple, well-padded cloth seat, adjustable back-height with lumbar bulge, and armrests that adjust in-out, up-down, and front-back tilt.
I've spent over 24 hours straight in that chair (modulo bathroom and fridge breaks) and had only stiff knees.
$700 Aerons, $500k Silicon Valley houses, and $40/hr Java "talent" really were the biggest boondoggles of the Internet boom.
--Blair
Aeron chairs look flashy. And they have a big price tag. Right now, with all the .coms selling their assets in BK, etc., they can easily be had brand new for $600. Check ebay. But more important is the fact that they really aren't much of an extravagence. While $600 is certainly a lot for a chair from the perspective of someone looking for a chair for their home office, real office chairs, ones that will hold up with someone sitting in them for 10 hours a day, five or more days a week, can't be bought for under $300. Want one that has something more than height adjustment? Go up to $400. Want one that doesn't have hideous and cheap fabric? Move toward $500. I'm shopping for conference room chairs, and I looked at a bunch of $500 chairs, including one that was an Aeron knock off. None of them came close to the quality of the Aeron. So anyone who buys Aeron chairs is really only spending an extra $100 to $200, realistically, and they are getting a much better chair. Why spend $500 on an ugly chair that isn't comfortable when you can spend $200 more and get a chair that is comfortable?
Those chairs you sit in at the dentist's office. No, not in the waiting room, the one you sit in while they are cleaning your teeth.
Just, think about it. It has those floating arms and trays which are a great place to mount the keyboard, trackball, and LCD. And it's very comfortable, IMHO. I could get some serious coding done in one of those.
I was actually thinking about doing this about 8 years ago. In college we'd go to the university surplus store, usually just to browse the 5 dollar dumb terminals, but this day they had some old dental chairs from the college of dentistry and the wheels started turning. Unfortunately, I lived in an apartment, and they probably wouldn't have appreciated me mounting the chair onto the floor, but it's my dream to get one of these babies! Someday!
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
I on the other hand have a very simple high-back executive-style chair that I picked up at a office-supply warehouse store. I chose not to get the leather to save $50, and because where I have it gets rediculously hot. The ordinary, non-hi-tech fabric covering is very comfortable... the look is stylish, in a classic sense. It has height, arm rest, back-tilt, and seat-tilt adjustment, and neck/upper back support as well as proper lumbar support. And this only cost me $180.
Why do people assume that more expensive necessarily means better? You don't assume that about computer parts, right? You evaluate the products of their own merit, and buy the one that's right for your needs. It may the cheap one, it may be the expensive one... Since when did you chair become a status symbol?
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I'm sick and tired of being responsible for the preservation of the universe and its outlying suburbs.
Wow, we just got our first venture capital of 5mil! I am definately going to celebrate by purchasing EVERY SINGLE ONE of my employees a brand new Aeron chair. Even the mail boy gets one!
After that, I'll take em out to GameWorks and Tacos to celebrate the purchase of our Aeron Chairs. Of course, that means we will have to move the celebration that commerates the celebration of me buying my new 911.
w00t! This r0x0rs!
Aliens? Magnetic Rings?! Bah! Who needs that when we have
I agree with this to a certain extent. At work, we have these chairs. The mesh is GREAT in the sense that you don't get the sweaty-ass (tm!?) and sweaty-back. My last job involved about 4 hours of sweaty-ass/back daily.
;-)
But $700!? I work at a start-up SIPS company, and we have about 120 of these in the office. Now I wonder how much the DESK costed... and I wonder why those in the corporate group that only use Word and Excel have the same $4000 laptops running W2KPro as us consultants... Yes, there are about 120 of these laptops that come standard with the desk, in addition to whatever other computers us "consultants" REALLY need.
Honestly, I love the chair, I love the desk, I love the fancy designer lamp on my desk, and I love the laptop (minus the OS). But this article sort of makes me worried over what I'll be doing in a year or so....
But back to the point. I like the chair. It's a pain in the ass to adjust, sort of, but honestly speaking, how many of us just loved to play around with all the adjustments for the first week or so after we got them? Within that first week of tinkering with it, I got my settings right.
I got to admit, the Aeron chair that I sat on in a pals office was great. But I could not justify the price. I have a nice 145.00 chair that I adjusted just right for the past 3 years.
But one day I'll own one. I have a goal # for it, when my new company makes 250K, that's the only gift I can think of buying for myself that is not to selfish.
As for desks, I would advise anyone always look at the used market. Some great bargans are avalible. I now own a 1931 roll top ( cost $ 93.00 ) that I keep at home and 1926 Hudson desk ( 250.00 ) that has leather and inlays. I spent 70.00 for the glass top so as not to mark the leather or the wood. I have moved the Hudson from firm to firm and most of the time it's the biggest desk in the firm.
ONEPOINT
if you see me, smile and say hello.
Remember that Herman-Miller is not a finance company and most likely wasn't financing the transactions.
maru
Amen brother. I got my ass parked in one right now, and it's heaven.
"There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people." --Muhammad Ali
My Pa is a workstation ergonomics specialist for an insurance company, and he says that Aerons suck. They are ergonomically inferior for several reasons, the main reason being that they have no upper back support - the top just slopes away. It looks snazzy but it kills your back. I'm sitting in one right now and I hate it.
A much cheaper and better chair is the Office Master Super Paramount which has good upper and lower back support and is fully adjustable. (Check out models 7578 and 7778.) It's not a fancy-shmancy executive leather chair or anything... but I think for the most part, you have to choose between "fancy-shmancy" and "doesn't destroy your back". The best chairs are actually not that expensive.
Only twelve hours later did I realize that I was still sitting in the chair and that my buttocks didn't hurt. I had not twitched or slouched once in the whole session.
But you are right, Aeron chairs are a stupidity test. It tests those who think that just because they are expensive they cannot be worth the money.
They were called INDUSTRIAL BUTT-TO-GROUND ADAPTERS and were marked as being $1700!! I've always know blackbox is a ripoff!
Everytime an Aeron story comes out Im reminded of how much FREEKIN cooler these chairs are. Sure they're almost as expensive as a luxury car, but a Mercedes doesn't have inetrnal fiber ports or room for four moniitors!
www.poetittech.com
"$700 Aeron chairs."
Try $1200. My last employer (The now bankrupt consulting firm marchFIRST.) had 10,000 of them in a Chicago warehouse, because there was never enough money to send them out.
The real loser in this is Herman-Miller, maker of the chairs. When Herman-Miller and its vendors sold these chairs in bulk to all the dotcoms, they sold on credit with NO SECURITY. That means there is no collateral, including the chairs themselves. Now the chairs are being sold out of bankruptcy to other firms for pennies on the dollar, hampering further sales.
My Aeron is fantastic. As another poster pointed out, you can't just sit down and expect miracles. You've got to adjust it to your own body. Not that I'm claiming they will work for everybody. I just know that my whole office has one, and everybody seems to like them.
If you've got ergonomic issues, it's critical that you get the problems fixed. Otherwise you're looking at life changing permanent damage to your back, hands, or whatever. I've just been through hand therapy, and believe me, nothing scares me more than the thought of losing the use of my hands. I'm a programmer, systems administrator, and piano player. My hands are a critical part of my livelyhood. Plus I want to be able to pick up my kids someday!
Check out www.tifaq.org. It's a great resource on general ergonomics, as well as a central place to find things like chairs and keyboards and pointing devices.
Imagine going out for a nice beef and bean burrito for lunch. Ya come back to work and you gotta fart like it's nobody's business. (In fact it is nobody's business except yours.) But those Aerons are no help. Ya try and let them sneak out silently, but inevidably a loud one gets out and all your co-workers are pointing their fingers at you. Not to mention their other hand holding their noses. :-)
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As funny as this sounds, I'm actually quite serious.
This is the best and most expensive ergonomic chair you can buy, period.
This Aeron chair review over at Geartest.com is the most popular review on Google. As the owner of a couple of Aerons I can see why.
You get the good and the bad. You get a description of how it holds up (or doesn't hold up) after use and over a long period of time.
Make up your own mind. Like many companies, I bought my Aerons due to the amount of time I have to spend in front of a computer. As one corporate ergonomist said to me when I was looking at buying office furniture, don't look at it as an expenditure....
Consider it as a long-term investment in your health.
The location sucked, the office sucked, the hours sucked, but the one message that came through loud and clear was that the mgmt recognized these things and compensated where it made sense.
The writer of this article has never worked in a .com it seems. The mantra of the times was time to market, which meant massive hour requirements on everyone involved... I don't think this was an uncommon situation...
Jan
Carl G. Jung
--
"With one breath, with one flow, You will know Synchronicity" -La Policia
Oh yeah, and anyone who spends 700 fucking dollars on a chair deserves to go broke. IMHFO. For that price it had better massage my back, do my taxes, and wipe my ass automatically. :-)
Humorless sig goes here.
I sit in an Aeron at work, and it's great! Truly comfortable for sitting on one's ass for many hours straight.
:)
Of course, there's no way in hell I'd pay the $700 for one of these at home . . . but the laid-off VP whose office I lifted this one from doesn't seem to mind.
I just bought one new for my dorm room, and in my mind, at least, it makes perfect sense. I spend a lot of time sitting at my computer, whether making money, working on programming assignments, or just reading the web. Given the amount of time spent in it, it's easy to justify paying $731 (after tax and leather armrests) for one, just like I justified a $600 monitor last summer.
Someone with a full time job would probably have a tougher time justifying one for home, but I'm sure you can do it if you work hard enough
My biggest peeve about these chairs is that the mesh support acts like a big sounding board for farts. What gets swallowed up by a regular foam cushioned chair gets amplified tenfold. No secrets at my office :-\
My favourite chair is the kind my wife and I bought for home. A third the price, way more comfortable.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
-B
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
Sounds like these companies spent tens of thousands on Chairs, when they should have spent it on...Oh I don't know....Maybe Advertising?
Disclaimer - IANSWLMP - I am not someone who likes marketing people
OTOH, the author has described the chairs as a symbol of decline, not the actual reason (Although it seems to imply one follows the other). Maybe they all failed because of poor business models to begin with, not misspending after setup. Anyone have any idea how many companies bought N amount of Aeron chairs to start with then succeeded?
I don't think I'm very happy. I always fall asleep to the sound of my own screams.
I tried to access the link provided, but the website seems to be SlashDot'ed. ColdFusion sucks ass.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
The second link is already unreachable.
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
i use and aeron at home. when i first got it, i spend a considerable amount of time getting it adjusted to suit me perfectly. that means setting the height so your feet rest on the ground, setting up the lumbar support properly, getting the correct tilt both forward and backward, getting the armrest height set properly, etc. it can be a chore, but if you take the time to do it, it truly is one of the most comfortable chairs.
one thing i've always hated about being a computer geek was what we here at work refer to as sweaty-ass . you know - you've been sitting in the same chair for 6 hours coding or browsing or quaking or whatever and the heat and humidity make for a relatively uncomfortable rear. the aerson's mesh works wonders for this - i can sit in that chair for an hour or two or ten and not have any trouble whatsoever. and i've never had any problem with it wearing out my clothes or anything. i'd guess that the poster doesn't have the chair set up correctly and therefore fidgets quite a bit, meaning extra wear on the clothes.
anyway, if you can invest the time and money, you can have a comfortable and healthy chair with the aeron.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
I dont think aerons are necessary, i'm sitting in a $100 chair i got at bureau en gros (the quebec equivilant of staples) and its great, i can sit in it for hours on end with no problems, it's far years better than my old wooden chair...
I use a Thatsit at home and it's the only chair I've ever been able to sit in for more than 4 hours without it causing be back/ass pain.
They come (or at least when my company bought them they came) in three different sizes. If you have the wrong size, it's impossible to adjust it to be comfortable. I use the large -- with the small or the medium, the front edge of the seat hits the back of my thighs at an uncomfortable place. I'm only 5'10" (177 cm) and my legs aren't particularly long -- I suspect that tall people might have a problem all the sizes.
I own an Aeron chair, and the Pellicle fabric is silky-smooth to the touch. The only way it would wear holes in ANYTHING is if your pants are made of tissue paper!
My Aeron is sooooo comfortable, even after literally 8 to 10 straight hours of sitting. It's like floating on air. Even better, I can kick back, put my feet up, and catch a few Z's in it quite comfortably if needed.
Does anyone have an EquipoiseE Balance Seat? Are they any good? Or any other good kneel-sit chair stlyes? Let us know. http://www.kneelsit.com/ I don't have one, and am not recommending one. Just curious.
ubi dubium ibi libertas.
because we all know sitting == "goofing off" and lying down is just downright immature!
- Toby
Aeron, schmaeron!
Go get a Balans Variable....
http://www.stokke-furniture.no/new/home.html
I love mine...one at home and one at work.
Aha, excellent point! A kind of offensive-defense of the ego boundary...
The whole three pages on Salon can be summerised as Lewis' Law on the probability of Dot-Com failure.
The probability of a Dot-Com failing is directly proportional to the ratio of Aerons Chairs:)
Now
"... an open-source start-up whose 110 Aerons were auctioned for $350 apiece after the company shut down in March."
Most cubicle forms that are more than 3 feet high allow for the tables to be attached at standing height.
Try it. Stand at your terminal. You'll be amazed how much more comfortable you are.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
- Quokka had "hundreds" of Aerons.
- Quokka burned through $200 million.
If we round "hundreds" up to 1000, we have $700,000 investment in chairs, or roughly 1/3 of 1% of $200 million. Two days of a programmer's salary cost more than his chair. Cubicles cost vastly more than chairs.Many things contributed to the dot com failures. Expensive chairs did not.
But they still made a lot of stupid decisions. I don't think they were spending 200 million dollars every 4 year though (ouch!).
I have absolutely no experience with Aeron chairs aside from the PvP comics featuring one (I'm on dialup atm so I can't go shuffling through the archives looking for the link to the thread). However my friend's dad has one of those relax the back chairs, and it is truly kickass. True, you can not really do any work while sitting in it since it doesn't fit under a desk and tends to put you to sleep in about five minutes, but it is a wonderfully comfortable chair good for mundane brainless activities, such as watching tv (Live F1 coverage of course).
Aside from keeping an Aeron chair broken in such fashion around as a practical joke (best in the guest lounge for maximum impact), they don't have much uses in my book..
Of course, Herman Miller could make another killing if they offered Aeron chairs in different colors (presumably to match all of the iMacs).. but let's not go there.
f u cn rd ths, u r prbbly a lsy spllr.