Slashdot Mirror
XBox Released
Gallowglass writes: "Salon has written a review of the Xbox which damns with extremely faint praise." There was a big hoopla in Times Square last night, but apparently no one pied Bill Gates. So, for all you poor souls who lined up to give money to the borg: does it work? Any blue-screens yet? :) Update: 11/15 15:23 GMT by M : Okay, I'm sorry. That's green screen of death, not blue screen.
Can I play pong on it? If Not why not?
The movie with the Riddler? Where he creates these boxes that sit on your TV and take over your thoughts? Are we sure that was Jim Carrey and not Bill Gates in that costume? :)
Microsoft: "What do you want to think today?"
Nosce te Ipsum
I own a PS2 and am quite happy with it. However, I plan on keeping an open mind about the Xbox and the GameCube. Anyone else remember the damning the SNES got when it first came out? And how popular did it get?
"All mankind is at the mercy of a handful of neurotics". - Norman Douglas
the register is also carrying a story about this. it talks about the uk release date as well as containing links to sites with more info on where to buy it and where you can test them out.
...take a look at C|Net's review of Microsoft's strategies with the Xbox. Bottom line of their article is that Microsoft has had to put on a completely different face to court developers for their game console, switching from monopolistic tyrant to play-nice we-want-to-help-you-succeed hardware investor. According to the quotes cited, it's worked, too. So far.
GTA3 is coming to XBox according to Rockstar games :-)
"I ain't got no flyin' shoes."
damn :-)
....well atleast my other point can stand
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I have it. I've played it. The bottom line at the moment is: *shrug*. It's extremely difficult to see how this is any different than a PlayStation 2. If you're expecting something miles beyond the PS2, then you'll be disappointed. From my point of view it's a PS2 with different games.
Halo is Yet Another First Person Shooter. I was expecting something revolutionary. Don't get me wrong, it's fun just like Half-Life and friends are fun, but it's simply other game of that style. It isn't a great leap forward. Arguably it isn't any leap forward.
The problem here is that people instantly lambash the box without thinking of the ramifications. Basically:
- It's a strong PC with great graphics. In the living room. The centerpiece of the family community.
- It is a console to actually push competition and strengthen games. Other consoles from here on out are going to have to consider putting an ethernet card on board. Or a hard drive. Competition is always good (even non-franchise reliant Sony is getting stale at this point).
- It's just another system. It's not the antichrist. Bill Gates personally doesn't take a cut on each box (in fact, cuts are probably taken out of HIM).
Let's think about that first one a good deal. A real PC. In the living room of thousands of people -- people, additionally, who wouldn't have thought of putting a PC in their living room. Why doesn't this get more people excited? It does for me. Naysayers like to tout X-Filish conspiracy theories about MS owning the world. It's not going to happen. Other companies are going to expand, reject, and strengthen parts of the box with 3rd party peripherals and software. The dream of having some kind of decent server in everyone's house will finally be realized.
Even if you completely reject the box and all it's strong points, you've got to admit THE CONVERSATION IS GOOD. Unfortunately, even with a thousand comments, Slashdot editors won't learn that this is one of the things we want to talk about. And quite frankly, I still like to follow the average Slashdotter's opinion over hype.
Now Gate's will finally understand failure!!!!
Oh, that's not fair. He understands it, alright. I've got one word for you: "Bob".
What's your damage, Heather?
Is this my imagination, or does slashdot take its anti-microsoft bias into everything they do?
I mean really, linking the xbox release with one totally negative article, while other sites have given it a much better outlook.
Please try to be fair here slashdot.
But it is essentially.. at least, according to Cringley, it's the expansion into new areas like gaming consoles that Microsoft desperately needs in order to keep growing at the necessary rate to avoid going bankrupt.
Look at it from a positive consumer viewpoint -- as previous slashdoters have mentioned, Microsoft are essentially selling a half-decent PC at below cost. Get yerself an X-Box, get Linux running on it, and have a good laugh at them.
What's next, Ars Technica's take on national health care?? Tom's Hardware celebrity gossip? If you're going to post a hardware review, you should aim a little higher than the online version of "The Nation". Surely someone that knows what they're talking about has reviewed this product?
It just accured to me. Will M$ try to stop people from reselling Xbox games like they do when you try to resell thier software? Honest I'm not trolling I am really curious do you think they will try this? Because they won't make any money off of second hand games.
http://Lenny.com
4 great justice!
But if you like FUD, let it flow...
that was more an Idea from gates wife that from him. so realy, he has never had an idea that failed.....mmostly because he would push it and keep pushing it by way of brute force until enough people got the idea and wanted it.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
If I wanted a PC, I would've bought one. I'd rather have the Playstation, which plays both the new AND old games, DVDs and CDs. It looks cooler, to boot.
Microsoft sure is spending a LOT of money on advertising though. I keep seeing Xbox commercials (or rather games FOR the Xbox). Judging by the pictures though, I still think the PS2 blows it away.
Yeah I was watching tv last night and saw about 20 commercials for halo and odd world. But you know what seems funny to me? Am I the only one that notices that the commercials show the CG and not so much the gameplay? Isn't this the ultimate form of false advertising? People are going to think that the gameplay looks that good. I played an XBOX in virgin superstore in New Orleans this weekend. The game on it (some football game) looked like nothing special. Like sega dreamcast even. And the controller looks like someone went nuts with a beadazzeler on a hunk of plastic. Rhinestone buttons. How ghey.
Well, for the N64 at least, Goldeneye had crash bugs. Turok (both, I think) had crash bugs. Zelda:OOT had crash bugs.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
At a bare minimum, this means that we're closer to Halo will shipping for the PC & Mac. I expect they'll start porting it within the next month, if they haven't already started. Of course, they won't release it for at least half a year to a year from now, but it's a start.
It's pretty sad when I have no interest in the system itself, but find more significance in the software that will become available for other platforms shortly after it's release.
I know the graphics sure are purty.
You should have pre-ordered them, but you can still get in line to get your XBox Bundles.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
Check this picture
Or this other one
More on The Register
Kindly get your facts straight.
X-box IRCC uses an Nvidia chipset. if NVidia sticks to it's tradition of not releasing the specs of the chips, only binary drivers, a port of linux to the X-Box is not a likelly thing to happen.
What ? Me, worry ?
(Redmond, WA) - Bill Gates, chairman of Microsoft, today announced a launch date for a second edition of the X-Box. At a press conference today, Mr. Gates described the intentions of his company in developing the Second Edition of X-Box. "The system, nicknamed 'Box the Second', or 'BS', will carry console gaming into new heights, and continue to develop the synergy that grows between computing and consoles." When pressed for specs, Mr. Gates gave a list of specifications that almost exactly matched that of the original X-Box. Except for one difference: "This one is purple."
"You're never ready, just less unprepared."
Where he creates these boxes that sit on your TV and take over your thoughts?
That neon green Xbox logo sends out microwave pulsations to your brain to the beat of the Madonna song played on the WinXP commercials. Mysteriously, on our next visit to Best Buy, you pick up a copy of WinXP:
Wife: Honey, I thought you only ran Linux?
You: Microsoft for life, babe.
is the hardware itself..
:)
:)
The launch titles suck.. Rehashed fighting/racing/whatever games.. extreme sports, extreme driving, extreme first person shooters with a console controller..blech..
But what we've got is a pc.. Fast as hell nvidia chipset, hardrive, network card, dvd drive..
Tell me someone isn't going to turn that into some cool as hell hardware.. slap a bigger hardrive into, make an mp3 box.. slap an even bigger hardrive into it, turn it into a pvr..
Take it even further.. turn it into the convergence device people have been talking about for the past 10 years.. Except instead of paying 999.99 for it, buy it for 299 (or less when the price drops)..
I think as a piece of hardware its got great potential...
As a console.. well its motsos.. (More of the same old s..t)
lastly.. for your truly rabid anti-ms people..
The XBOX represents the only true way you can DIRECTLY damage microsoft through buying things.. Every unit they sell is sold at a loss.. Buy one.. Hack the hardware.. make it do stuff its not supposed to do.. And don't buy any software for it
Okay maybe the logic's a little spurious.. But it sounds good on paper
But since MS is losing money on each unit sold, (at least it was reported that they are losing money per unit), isn't this like taking money from MS?
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Sony seems to think the xbox is going to force them to abandon PS2 sooner than they anticipated....and roll out the PS3...check it out here.
Full Story
--GuntherAEPi
"
From the Salon article: It's already drawn the interest of PC gamers, who often dismiss console games as brainless kiddy fodder.
Maybe the reason it drew interest from us PC gamers was that Halo was announced ages ago as a PC/Mac game, a situation which changed dramatically when MS bought out Bungie?
I'm not alone in being extremely disappointed in Bungie over this. I remember desperately looking forward to Halo a year ago, but now I probably won't even buy it. (And not out of spite; by the time the PC version is out, I'm sure there'll be much more attractive games available. That's if the PC version ever gets done at all.)
-- If no truths are spoken then no lies can hide --
I noticed the other day that http://www.futureshop.ca [Lazy Link] has had their site taken over by MS for the XBox. Now I dont mind advertising, but, having something pushed in my face like that when I could be shopping for something like the GC kinda upsets me. I know major retail stores do tend to play favorites with certain companies but this is over the edge I think. So, do you think stores should be monopolised (heh) like this?
An optimist believes we live in the best world possible; a pessimist fears this is true.
Why do you really care what country certain
industries are based? It's quite possible to
make games for it regardless of where the hardware
is made. There's no good reason that you should
choose to identify more with an american company
than a japanese one -- they're all just people.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
you claim things are good (such as having a PC in the living room or having an ethernet or a harddrive on a console) but you don't explain why these things are good.
i'll tell you my take; both of those things are not good in and of themselves.
i don't have my PC in my living room, it's in my bedroom. the console is in the living room with the TV. i play different games on them, completely different (RTS, RPG on the computer, Gran Turismo, Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy (which are not RPG IMHO) on the console.)
an ethernet connection on a console isn't some gaming messiah. there are currently no games which i could see benefitting from this on any console, nor any in the future. same with having a hard drive. great, it'd lead to faster and more saved games. dandy. personally i don't run out of space on my memory cards, but that's me. this by itself is not a reason to buy a console.
as this salon article says (and i hate salon), it's the games, stupid. great games sell consoles, mediocre games sell a few as will the flood of adverts that MS has put out.
but in the end, there are no interesting games for the console, thus it is uninteresting and will ultimately fail.
personally, i'm spending $700 on a new computer which has more than twice the power (and 5 times the storage space, and that's nothing) of the X-box. there are actually interesting games for this computer i'm buying; civ3, dark ages of camelot, max payne (which i still haven't played), et cetera.
anyway, this is a dead horse i'll stop beating it.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
They are really cheap on on eBay.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
the reality is that graphics power is 95% of a game machine
if I am buying a console today, I would hopr it would be 110% of a gaming machine since that is why I am buying the damn thing.....I think the grafics in the PS2 stomp the graphics in a gaming PC with the GF3. games run smooth on PS2, the look good and there is little hastle using the controler.....Halo's controls suck...MS should have taken some Ideas from the snes and golden eye.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
It might not mean a linux port worthy of writing games for, but it would be a linux port. After all, the dreamcast port doesn't support GLX, as far as I know.
Besides, as has been said many times: X isn't linux :)
I was scanning posts to see somebody hadn't beat me to it - think of a relatively nice PC with superb graphics and a lot of other bells and whistles - all at $300. If you could buy these in bulk and turn them into a nice internet appliance with all sorts of multimedia features, that be a truly ironic kick in the pants to MS.
It be great if half the people who bought them didn't buy a single game.
And when MS starts complaining, all I can ask is why they didn't see it coming. Of course, the XBOX will probably come with some shrink wrap agreement saying you can't do jack to it, so we'll all somehow be violating the DMCA if we try to hack it - no hack websites, because the government flunkies will bow to the will of MS (just like they did with the RIAA and MPAA).
Oh well, you can't keep a good hack down for long. I may actually put off buying a second "real" PC until we see what we can do with one of these.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Eh, remember the commercials for diablo2? All they showed were the cutscenes.
yeah but they were working from a sequal that had a huge hit in the original....they basicly said...people won't worry if the graphics are the best since they know they will be at least as good as the original. so lets just show cut sceens.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I, for one, would be pissed off to find out that Bad Religion got no money love out of Crazy Taxi. Music can make a game, it shouldn't be given to a megacorporation without compensation.
-sk
they look fuzzy to me....but then I like a sharper image...so it is just my opinion...also, it is badly done FSAA.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
My copy of Zelda: OOT has never caused my N64 to crash. I wonder if you could be a bit more specific. I'd like to see this crash bug for myself.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
When linux has been successfully ported to these machines, I will buy one.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
being a big cross-breed between RTS and FPS.. but MS required bungie to orient it more toward the X-Box. :P yet another possibly great thing MS managed to stomp into the ground.
oh well
I'm not convinced. Fanboys deified Bungie and Halo years before anyone had ever seen the game. I think this is just yet another case of too much hype and people willingly buying into it. (And everyone ignoring that it is much, much easier for a game developer to *claim* they will do something than to actually deliver.)
Halo has been used a rallying cry by various factions, and those factions have changed dramatically over the course of its development. At first the Mac owners were screaming about Halo, because Bungie started as a Mac company. Then Windows users were using it as an example of game that you needed a PC for, that just couldn't be done on a console. Then Xbox fans were using it as a way of putting down the PS2. Of course none of these groups ever played the game, and in the end it turned out to be much less than everyone had built it up to be.
you can build a better PC for the cost you're talking about. bigger harddrive will be $100, so for $400 you can build a better machine than the X-Box.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
Bill would enjoy knowing it ran Linux.
Right, because he likes innovation- in fact he recently claimed to have been personally responsible for the rise of open source because of the way dos/windows commoditized hardware. Innovation warms his heart, just like heartburn.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
I am giving the domain xboxlinux.com to the first person to successfully port/install Linux to the X-Box. No cost, no strings except you must be willing to continue work on it and release it to the public in some form.
Hammer of Truth
NOT!
Slashdot editors are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in their overt attempts to bash Microsoft. They do so at any cost, and by that I mean regardless if it makes them look like biased buffoons or not.
Salon is the last place I go for anything remotely to unbiased reporting. Seems Slashdot wants to follow suit.
The X-Box should be judged for what it is, and that is an attempt to offer flexibility to developers to make the games they could only wish to create for the PC. Microsoft or not, I would love to see some real creativity in the market that didn't involve a regular game company.
Can Ms provide that? I don't know, but I won't slight them based upon a Salon review, in fact if Salon bashes them at all I see it as more of a reason to look at the product.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
if I am buying a console today, I would hopr it would be 110% of a gaming machine since that is why I am buying the damn thing
Well you do need power for other things like putting real AI in drivers in GTA4.
I think the grafics in the PS2 stomp the graphics in a gaming PC with the GF3. games run smooth on PS2, the look good
I respectfully disagree. What resolution does the PS2 normally run at when connected to a TV? I know that lots of people foolishly compare a console game running a 512x384 or whatever with a PC running at 1024x768, ignoring the fact that the PC is pushing >4x as many pixels. In any case I have yet to see a stunning game on the PS2, whereas on a GF3 running at high rez something like Quake 3 (yup it still rocks with every feature turned on) roxxors. Operation Flashpoint offers graphics, AI and features that consoles can only dream of.
Salon is overlooking something very critical. They run down the list of X-Box titles and call them boring and pedestrian, then detail FUTURE Sony titles that will be innovative...
But they don't mention any future X-Box titles which will innovate, other than a dismissive mention of the 2002 lineup which claims to have 'nothing ambitious'.
Are they forgetting that Sega has close ties with Microsoft? Jet Set Radio Future, the first franchise to effectively work cel shading into the game's stylistic approach, is due out for X-Box. In addition, Shenmue, the series which redefined how adventure games and peristent worlds work on Dreamcast, will be an X-box franchise from now on. US gamers will be getting Shenmue 2 on X-box alone.
If you're going to hold one console above another, at least consider all aspects of both, rather than forgetting a key area. That's just good journalism, whatever your preference for gaming platforms or your like/dislike of Microsoft may be.
When is someone going to come out with Linux for XBox. Seriously, the equivalent PC to an XBox costs oh so much more. If I could get Linux on there I've got cheap cheap servers. Tribes 2, Counterstrike, and Apache ahoy!
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Nomatter how good or bad, it will still be a great alternative for parents with no technical expertise to give to their children come X-mas.
After all, who didn't get their first kick on computers on a VIC-20 or simular boxes...
A couple auctions of interest. This one sold a link to where you can preorder the Xbox for a final bid of $407. Funny, considering the link is in the description and the seller says "If you decide to place a bid, then I will only resend you this website. So if you bid, you will not receive the xbox system, just a link to where you can purchase a x-box".
The other auction of note is here, where the winner gets the box that the Xbox came in. The seller is very clear about the person only getting the box that it came in, yet the winning bid was still $366.
Was a crime committed here? Nope. They were just helping the fool part from his money sooner.
hmm yeah - I played GTA3 a couple of times on a friends PS2 and whilst it was very very beatiful, inclusing reflections of the secnery in the gleaming paintwork (and I could elect to drive my actual real life car which was kinda wierd)at the end of the graphical amazement, it left me cold - basically - it is *nothing* like driving a car. It may have been a different story with a wheel to steer with rather than that funny joystick thing, but I I'm not prepared to spend the £250 to find out :)
:)
We played some other PS2 titles (which I forget the name of, although one was a Sar Wars title) and I came away thinking "hmm so basically, scenery of one type or another scrolls towards you, and you steer" This seemed the basic premise of most of the games. In some you could shoot things as well, whilst others you just avoided obstacles (snowboarding was one excuse). The annoying thing that all these games had in common, is that you are never *really* in control of your ship/board/car/shopping trolley etc as the game will just not let you move outside of the "approved" area of the scenery. For example, I couldn't fly out of the canyon in the SW game. But there was no apparent reason for this, it was just arbitrary.
The only other basic type involved 2 psuedo 3d avatarsviewed in 3rd person who face off in some osrt of kickboxing fight. The game appeared to be won by pressing everything on the controller at the same time rapidly.
Apparentley, GT3 is hailed as one of the best if not the best console game. Hmm well if a very pretty version of "horace goes skiing" is the state of the art, I'll stick to me PC this time around. With games like Star Wars Galaxies and Planetside from Sony coing next year, it's gonna be a blast.
Before I get flamed by all the console lovers, I should state that I fully recognise that the console has a place - it's damm sight cheaper than a PC for start (My video card cost more than a PS/2), and is more easily accesible by non "hardcore" gamers who just want a bit of a laff with their mates round the TV with the aforementioned beer and pizza, and not to have to spend the first few days of playing any new game, writing macros and message binds, and downloading the essential addons and extra maps you need to play in the "big league" - in many ways, the very flexibility offered by the PC as a games platform provides many more potential ways to cheat. And cheating is what ruins many an online multiplayer gaming experience - just ask any Counterstrike player. These games are effectivley being driven onto the private LAN tournament scene where inspections of the players kit whilst in play are possible leaving just the casual games on the 'net. Serious tournaments are almost impossible on the Internet because of the cheating opportunities available by simply hacking the models or game client. These client mods are undetectable by the server. So, with the "closed" nature of console games (ie you can't write your own config scripts or alter the models, sounds and textures ) perhaps there will be a resurgence of serious Internet based multiplayer play. That is, until the consoles start to look so much like a PC that they suffer the same fate...
OK the ramble factor has reached the "shut up now scoot" stage so I'll not bore oyu any more
oh, yes... Microsoft makes operating systems. did it ever occur to you that they would want their devlopers to succeed? successful devopers make good games, which sells their OS, not to mention that consumers get good products, so everyone wins.
Microsoft is in this to make money. They will. Patience... The grim reaper will visit...
Xbox has a green interface, thus has a green screen of death.
:)
How can you do Ctrl-Alt-Del with a Xbox's controller?
Bad Religion did provide some of the music for Crazy Taxi. When I play on the Dreamcast, it's usually the second song, after the first one by The Offspring. From the game's web site: "Rockin' soundtrack by hit bands Offspring and Bad Religion."
it's called themable crash screens. they got the idea from Mandrake's themable linux installer.
Got friends?
Ok, this entire review is a giant contradiction of ideals. First, the guy seems to rank of Microsoft for trying to control everything everywhere with its operating system. "Internet Explorer of the Game world". IMMEDIATLY after that, he ranks on the fact that Microsoft has secured no incredible new games, and are simply presenting the same lackluster games that everyone else has..
So answer me this. Why is that their job?? They provide the platform, and for ONCE in their lives actually try to provide developers, in this case, GAME developers, a platform they can flurish on without locking shackles on them, and they get yelled at for NOT doing EXACTLY WHAT EVERYONE COMPLAINS ABOUT??
Talk about your catch22 no win situations..
Hands down, the XBox has more capabilities then the PS2 does. You simply cant argue with the numbers. Does the PS2 have a better developer following, which hence, utilize the hardware better? Hands down, yes. But for crying out loud, that doesnt mean that the entire platform is a peice of crap.
I bet some of these guys saying how crappy of a platform it is are the SAME ones drooling over the GeForce 3 cards, that actually have LESS capabilities then this beast does..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Um, why has an unqualified picture of an XBox Development Kit* message box been promoted to front page news? All we can glean from this is that the "oct" in the URL implies that it was posted to HardOCP in October. There's no evidence that this is from a unit sold to a consumer. Nor is there evidence that this is from a crashing in-store demo kiosk.**
Michael, this is neither funny nor professional. You're doing more to reinforce Slashdot's reputation as a childish, "M$ sux0rs linux 0wnz j00" site than any hundred Anonymous Cowards.
I've almost never agreed with Jon Katz's editorials. But I've always felt that squelching his opinion by banning him from my front page was wrong. You, Michael, have crossed that line. I'm banning you from my front page. I know that will cut my story count in half, but at least I can read the front page with the resonable expectation that I won't have my intelligence insulted.
*: That's the XDK in "XDK Launcher".
**: Sorry 'bout the annoying pop-unders, but that's the only crashing demo reference I could find through HardOCP on short notice.
This sig intentionally left blank.
Remember that like most game systems, the console is sold at a loss, which the manufacturer recoups via game licensing fees. Microsoft loses at least $100 for every XBox they sell, with the red ink expected to approach $1 billion over the next 3 years.
So, all the M$ haters here have a simple choice -- buy an XBox. Buy several. Turn it into a PVR / mp3 Jukebox / file server. At $299 it's a nice piece of hardware.
This is simply an error message, and the problem is clearly handled. Would it be better if they did not inform the user that something is wrong at all and have it actually crash because of a bad executable?
Wow, those are some future thinking statements.
I would love to have a hard drive if that meant I could store lots of game save data without having to spend lots extra on solid state storage devices that just can't hack it.
Why would I not want to have caching of data on a hard drive rather than have to constantly hit the cd rom drive? Geez.. caching would be fantastic and most games would benifit from this.
Ethernet would be great for anyone that has a broadband connection. I would love to play GT3 with people on the internet. Would I want to play Halo on the internet with lots of people? hell yah.
geez man.. Maybe xbox doesn't fit your personal needs but your arguments are pretty pathetic.
I got my copy of Metal Gear Solid 2 yesterday(odd how it was released right before the Xbox and GameCube launch), and it kicks some major ass. I have yet to see any X-Box game from the demos in stores, or movies released to the web that is as good looking as MGS2.
And I can shoot seagulls's with the PSG1! It's surprisingly satisfying.
Back on the subject, other than what MS bought, I barely see any developer support for them at all. And to make matters worse, the X-Box is HUGE. And if I understand correctly, in Japan, small is good cause apartments tend to be on the small side, but maybe the Japanese version folds out to become a coffee table that keeps your drinks warm as it overheats?
If I want to play Halo, I'll get it for the PC or Mac.
Now if I could figure out how to get into Shell 2 without dying....
-Henry
"Useless organic meatbag" -HK-47
I saw an X-Box demo machine at Wal-Mart the other day with Munch's odysee on it (The Oddworld series was one of my favorites on the PS1). Believe it or not (I think you will), the machine was totally locked up....My PS1 and PS2 have *never* locked up on me before....
Here's a few links to other and may be more objective reviews
Zdnet
Gamespy
Gamespot
FiringSquad
TeamXBox
Yahoo 2 3
--
"Can I run a linux cluster of those?"
!
^_^
i'm buying; civ3, dark ages of camelot, max payne (which i still haven't played),
Max Payne is on the X-Box
Here's the Max Payne trailer (Windows Media Player required).
This may be a stupid question, but how does it play DVD movies? I mean, obviously it has a DVD-ROM, but where does the software to play it come from? Do you need a boot CD to load up the OS/player, then you swap in the DVD? Or is there a small Windows OS on the hard disk itself that contains a player? If there's a Windows OS on the HD, what's stopping the natural corruption of some DLL's and the player breaking?
Um, XBox is also the first system to include a bonefide headset in the works for talking to other game players during games. I assume that voice recognition is just around the corner.
I have always liked the editors at Salon and this time is no exception.
What Xbox has going for it...
1 - PS2 is known as a more adult gaming platform. I just bought a PS2 and finding games for my 9 year old daughter is interesting. Maby MS can capitalize it if they are smart.
2 - Should be easy to port PC games to it. Something lacking in PS2/Nintindo worlds.
What Xbox has going against it....
1 - Sony rules the console market right now. Hands down. Nintendo has some a good new platform and more kiddy friendly games. Xbox has to compete with this
2 - Microsoft is used to being able to do what they want because they have a Monopoly. How will management react to situations when they are the small guy. It's like General Moters starting to offer blenders. They are not experts and the people the people who have been making them know a lot more about it and actually listen to there customers.
3 - Lack of vision. Ties into #2. Where's the killer app? Do you really think Gates and Balmer can envision great new games.
4 - Game makers won't produce for a console that hasn't got a proven track record. Why spend millions developing a game for a potential 50 people when I can do it for tens of millions across the world (PS2).
5 - Blue/Green screen of death will put off gamers. I bought a PS2 so I could get away from computer gaming and costant error messages and rebooting. When has anyone ever seen an error message on a Playstation or a Nintendo? I want drop in a game and play it never seeing an error message. PC users are use to getting them and can live with it. Console games don't and won't tolerate it. I gave up PC gaming because I got sick of upgrading video cards, getting more hard drive space, better processors. I just want to drop that disc in and play the game.
6 - The goofy Balmer/Monkey/music crap that the Salon article talked about. If you have to dance around on stage and talk like a motivational speaker your not selling stuff in the console market. When Grand Theft III is released or the next version of Final Fantasy they don't even need to air a commercial. They could send it to the stores and put it on the shelf without a word and it will sell out. Microsoft ain't cool. Sony is, Nintendo is some what.
I could go on and on. I can't see Xbox being anything but a niche market. Microsoft bit off more than they can chew with this one.
Have you witnessed Metal Gear Solid 2? Absolutely one of the most riveting games, ever. My wife (who normally detests any videogame other than Bejeweled) is now addicted to watching me play! It's that engrossing...
Devil May Cry is also the game that every 3D version of Castlevania has ever tried to be. Give it a play and tell me you're not impressed and I'll kindly give you a whap with the closest handy LARP.
Gran Turismo 3 not impressive? Guess that depends on if you like driving games or not.
How about Tony Hawk 3? Great game. Splashdown? No? How about SSX Tricky, the first game to ship with in-game DTS 5.1 support?
Methinks you need to expand your horizons a bit.
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
Also part of that investor group was Wasserstein Perella Group, Inc., which has done M&A transactions for AOL (http://www.wassersteinperella.com/about/transacti ons.htm).
It's a stretch, but not a BIG stretch. AND this is off 10 minutes of research.
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
well we will just have to hook up a PS2 to an HDTV and set the rest to the highest possable allowed by the TV so we can get a fair compairison....anyone got $2000?
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
could you imagine having been one of the people that worked on that? what would you tell your friends? did they realize they were working on the hokiest program ever? how could you tell someone with a straight face "yeah, i work on microsoft BOB"? that's definitely something you leave out of your resume :)
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
...when it comes to error messages. That green-on-black look alone is "hip" and "trendy," but the attention to detail shows that Microsoft has put a lot of effort into making the user's error message experience an enjoyable one. In the future, I'm sure we can look forward to more "dynamic" and "interactive" error message paradigms from this "innovative" company.
I think this line from the article says it best:
So for the first time, I actually dared to entertain warm thoughts toward Microsoft.
Yeah, no kidding that he doesn't normally like Microsoft. I would never have guessed it from the consistently cynical tone of his article.
I'm no big fan of MS either, but jeez. Would a little unbiased journalistic integrity be appropriate? Hmm.
As it is, I don't think that I know anything more about how good the XBox is after reading the article than I did beforehand -- because I don't even begin to trust the opinions of the journalist with his obvious baggage of preconceptions.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Admittedly, I am biased against Microsoft. I want them to fail. So what? Objectivity is impossible for anyone, and at least I'm honest about my bias.
But all that doesn't matter. (Mostly.) The XBOX gets so much criticism, not because it's Microsoft, but because it really does suck. There's nothing it has that a stale PC from a year or more ago doesn't, or couldn't with a little money. The games are mediocre at best, the hardware is crap, and thus few console gamers show interest. The fact it's Microsoft is just the cherry on the icing of this fruitcake.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Otherwise, some good points but there are some holes. Dreamcast was much the same, although a slower computer a few years back. And they didn't do anything with that advantage.
Bleh!
i believe the founders of valve (half-life) were on the BOB team
GSOD (G'S'O'D)
GSOD: A acronym for defining the Green Screen Of Death. Invented by Microsoft Corp, in 2001.
This is what is displayed when the XBox(R) crashes, and fails to load media. Mostly requiring a power cycle.
Also See Evil Empire
--------------------------
Is this a sig?
--------------------------
I bought one of these last night because I wanted to. I made my decision off of the good reviews and the bad reviews but mainly because I wanted to.
/first/ games released for the Xbox". The platform has been stable so far *no crashes or anything like that* so I`m hopeful. To be honest I think I would have enjoyed a PS2 just as much, but the built in hard drive, and the ethernet jack is what sold me after it was all said and done. The DVD option is $30 extra so I`ll probably wait a bit for that since I have a quality DVD player anyway, but like I said, I think time will tell. If nothing else you know at least every M$ game released will be available. heh.
For a company who has never been in the game console industry I have to say I`ve been impressed so far with the few hours I`ve had to play on it at home. I bought Halo, as well as Madden 2002. Like someone said above, I`ve also noticed the few little paused in Halo while it loads the new screen, but by no means did it take away the feel of the game which even after playing many FPS's I genuinely liked. I didn`t know what to expect playing a FPS on a game controller but they did a really good job with the conversion and the pinpoint control you have with a mouse is even there. Madden 2002 is taking some getting used to but I really think they made a really good migration compared to the PS2. There are a few things I wasn`t too impressed with price wise but I suppose that's to be expected. Thinking to myself "These are the
Re: running Linux:
Is anyone actually working on XBox linux? I couldn't find any real projects for it.
Is there any evidence of (or cunning way to use) USB peripherals for the XBox? I suppose you might manage something working through the ethernet connector, but additional hardware starts eating away at the cheapness of it as a PC.
As long as I'm asking, is anyone playing with using a Gameboy Advance as a fancy PC peripheral? Using it for games like football where one wants to secretly set plays seems like a nifty idea.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
While we're at it, it would be nice if it would let me browse the web, or perhaps run some online games that are playable at some distance from a relatively large, low-resolution (640x480) screen (though I have an HD-ready high-resolution set, most don't). And you know, all these entertainment devices with their complex controls, some of which have a video output for interactive menus are getting a pain to control. Why can't they provide a web server interface to a device with a browser and appropriate plugins, and just be hubbed into the local room 'net?
The ability to run local entertainment software (i.e. games), networked or not, is a feature that comes for free if we're going to have enough "oomph" to do MPEG2 decoding. While you might want to use it for non-entertainment duties (i.e. checking one's bank acount, or ordering a pizza on-line), work isn't it's primary purpose.
THAT is what the XBox could be. Architecture should be open, so third parties can develop apps/add on hardware for it. Still, it should be useful enough on it's own to justify it's price. Whether the hard disk (if present) and or CD/DVD-ROM is integrated, or outboard (firewire?) is more of a stylistic issue -- today we have A/V receivers as well as separates.
In my search I have come across some neat tech by Sigma Designs (http://www.sigmadesigns.com, http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/netstream_con sole.htm (watch the damn inserted space), and particularly the iDVD3036). So decent convergence products are coming (say 2002).
But, if PC history tells us anything, the ones that succeed will be more open than the one's that don't. Unless Microsoft opens the XBox up architecturally and makes it easy for third party hacker developers, they will be among the convergence also-rans.
You could've hired me.
i've always known most slashdotters are somewhat if not full blown anti MS... but i've always thought of them as quite intelligent people.. and now many of them are making uneducated and outright wrong statements... simply put.. the xbox has a super fast bus... you could spend 5000 dollars on a computer and it couldn't compete... true you wont have a high resolution screen right there in front of your face... but it isn't needed.. because you aren't a foot away from the television... your probably around 7 feet away.. and the screen is atleast 3 times bigger than your monitor so it'll look great... as for the games not making leaps and bounds in technology and inovation... give it time... its a great toy... its not the anti christ... i enjoy playing games on my computer... but im also quite interested in seeing what the xbox has to offer... great graphics have always been a major factor in getting my attention... and the x box has some nice capabilities... now its up to the developers to use those capabilites
The thing is, your statements could almost apply just as well to the PS2 as the XBox. Sure, with the PS2 you have to obtain a seperate solution for ethernet or a HD (which is not totally nessicary as you could consider the memory card enough storage to make things interesting).
However, you also have to consider that MS had said repeatedly they are NOT making a home PC, they are making a pure game console. To help drive that point home they have made the USB ports non-standard.
If you look at it from a point of connectivity, the XBox has ethernet but as far as the larger device market goes nothing else. The PS2 has both standard Firewire and USB ports, and also a SUPPORTED version of Linux (and Java in the works). You can use USB keyboards and mice you have sittig around from computers, or go to lots of stores and have keyboards to choose from as well as being able to hook up digital cameras with included cables.
Which one sounds more like a home PC hub to you? Remember, just because it doesn't have an Intel processor does not mean it can't be a computing device...
One last point - though I have a cable modem and DSL line (not for long though - thanks a lot Sprint!), people are still going to be using modems for a long time. Sony has realized this and is including a modem with thier ethernet/HD extension. MS has only ethernet which is great for some but not all users. I can't remember exactly what Nintendo was planning, but I think they had a combo modem/ethernet solution as well.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Microsoft sells these boxes for whatever price they need to sell them for. We have to be careful not to increase demand too much.
However, Microsoft is investing all this money into the xbox in order to sell software, licenses or future xbox extensions. The money is not in selling the boxes at all!
If they have a big pile of unsold xboxen, they can dump the prices even farther. They are willing to lose a LOT of cash in order to take over the gaming console market. In the end, when they are the defacto standard, they can start raising prices again.
If a large section of the boxes sold are used for totally different purposes, they will truly bleed. They sell all these boxes for a loss, hoping to get that investment back later - but we just install linux on em instead.
That is completely demoralizing to Microsft. Hopefully, a linux hack will keep them in line since people sick of upgrading their gaming consoles will just install linux and use their box for online gaming, gimping and whatever else can be fun to do with a console.
Agreed?
Stop the brainwash
This is so not the point -- the two consoles are going head up NOW, not a year from now when the XBox might actually have more then ten games.
But to your point, MS's lineup for *next* year sucks. This time last year, Sony had a shitty lineup, but they had a lot in the works. Where's the MGS2? Where's the Tony Hawk 3? Where's the GTA? Where's the Final Fantasy? The Devil May Cry? The list of games being hyped then was really, really long -- what's Microsoft promising us, aside from ports of PS2 titles and "a next-generation cutting edge high definition bla bla bla marketing bla vapor bla bla resistance futile bla bla" with no specifics?
god is just pretend.
This is one development which I think could be seriously interesting. We know Linux has been ported to the PS2, and we know that the Xbox uses a standard PIII and NVIDIA Gforce chipset. Given GL support and reasonable performance under both graphics chipsets imagine porting FlightGear to the PS2 (it's a given that it should work almost unchanged on the XBox) and providing ISO images for folks to download and burn. This would be a great way to get desirable free software out to the masses. It might even spark greater interest in Linux to boot!
:)
FlightGear is an impressive flight simulator with a huge amount of scenery data taken from satellite images. Unlike Ace Combat 4, FlightGear actually flies like a real airplane. It's got some networking support and a userbase of real pilots working to make the simulator as real as possible. It's one of the only simulators out there which strives to make star field, moon, and sun locations as real as possible.
Of course there are other potential targets for GL games ported through Linux, and Linux would provide an ideal quick cross platform development platform for both systems. End users don't need to know that Linux happens to be driving the game (or program) underneath, and it would cost nothing to distribute. I love the idea that free software developers could distribute software for free to both PS2 and Xbox users -- something which I think would surprise quite a few console gamers. Heh.
Cheers,
--Maynard
besides, we all know that it takes MS 3 times to get it right.
Come on, that's not fair and you know it. It took 5 versions of DOS to finally get the damn thing to use high memory.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
I would only buy an X-Box if
1. I can install Linux on it
2. Microsoft loses more money on the sale than I would be spending on the purchase.
3. The hardware doesn't start fires
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
If you want GTA3 on Xbox, be ready to wait. It'll be next year.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
As an IS professional charged with the support of applications and databases running on NT and Windows2k I find it distressing that a company that has for the past few years devoted themselves to taking over the mid-range server OS market has invested this much time and energy into a video game box.
If that money slated for the Xbox had been put to work on XP maybe the general reception to XP would not have been as cool. And companies are left with OS's that are rapidly becoming obsolete because efforts to maintain a consistent OS were subjegated by the quest for the "perfect" game box.
Be realistic, in any corporation there are huge tradeoffs for funding of projects. Regardless if the Xbox is a success, the damage to MS's already shaky IS relationship has been magnified in my view.
This only feeds the perception that many IS people feel, that Microsoft is only really good at making a platform for games and not a serious platform for business. In the end the Xbox might be seen as the best thing to happen to Linux.
One thing the article mentions is that the XBox gets a bit of a head start over Sony, which has yet to release the ethernet/HD expansion pack.
On the other hand, how many people do you think will be interested in online Halo play, vs...
Online Star Wars?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's not that Microsoft will go bankrupt in the near future. It's keeping the stock price up that's hard.
They've basically reached market saturation. Everybody with disposable income who wants one already has a PC. Businesses have about one PC per employee. Most new sales are replacements. And there's really no pressing reason for most people to upgrade.
That's usually the situation in which margins go down. That's already happened in PC hardware. It ought to happen in software. Microsoft is frantically trying new business strategies (raising the price for Windows XP, technical tie-ins, a subscription model) to avoid becoming a "mature business".
But there's no "killer app" in sight to force the next generation of technology.
I can't stress how hilarious it is to see Slashdotters, many of whom take pride in the amount of MP3s they've downloaded for CDs they've never bought, self-righteously coming to the defense of the artists that they've been ripping off. Let's note the difference, shall we? While you're more than happy to give a big "Fuck you!" to any band that asks that you quit pirating their music, Microsoft actually asked for and received the bands' permission. Beautiful.
I had a look at the Xbox at a Future Shop. They are charging $600Cdn($377US). One of the store clerks was trying to set up a demo machine but it was too big to fit in the kiosk case they had for it. I asked him about playing DVDs on it and he said you could but you had to spend another $50 for the DVD controler and $25 for the cable to connect it to the TV. It comes with one game controler and to add extras would be another $50 each. So now I'm looking at shelling out $825 + $120 in taxes. I said no thanks and walked on which is what I suspect is most Canadians will say.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
And history repeats, but usually not so quickly. Everywhere I read that Microsoft is new to the game, unexperience, etc. These make me laugh. Its clear that there's more animosity towards MS than the X-Box itself (though it may well deserve animosity on its own).
Ever heard of the MSX(or for the matter of experience, MS Flight Sim)? While MS wasn't really involved with the hardware production, neither can they be said to have been very involved with their latest exploit. The MSX was a PC version of Pinoccio, the console that wanted to be a PC. To a large extent it is. Soviets used it quite a bit in education. Microsoft's involvement was MS BASIC as an operating system. MS now denies that the MS in MSX means Microsoft, but the OS was originally called MicroSoft eXtended BASIC. Go figure.
Interestingly, there was more than crap edutainment games made for it. Ever hear of Metal Gear? Both MG 1 and 2 were made for the MSX. Looks way better than the NES version too. Crazyness, I tell you!
And when did this whole MSX thing happen? "back when [you were] 13, playing Zelda or Sonic!"
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Uh, who's the big mascot for the PS2? A snowboarding guy? The fact is that single-character branding only works on Japanese kids nowadays. Even Nintendo has figured that out, and isn't pushing Mario on us anymore.
Bullshit. There's more than a dozen games on that list, each one of them better than anything PS2 had at premiere. Remember the crap that PS2 had on shelves for its launch? If you could even find a game.
This sense is validated by a recent survey of consumers in the market this Christmas for a console; overwhelmingly (as in 62 percent) they preferred the Playstation 2, and primarily on the strength of its brand and wide variety of games.
Again, bullshit. Although the 62% figure is correct, with XBox and Gamecube basically tied, the reasons for choosing PS2 had more to do with "brand leadership" and Sony-ness than games. Games were listed as third in the list of reasons. Even then, it had to do with variety, not quality.
I could go on, but you get the point. That article was crap. Not a review, more of an editorial. The author was so afraid of adding publicity to the XBox machine that he hardly mentioned the console at all, instead focusing on why he thought PS2 and G^3 were so much better.
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
Mod the man up. I just pointed out the mistake to Michael (the poster of the story) now.
That's an XDK tossing up an error several months ago. And it's not a crash: it's looking for the media.
Second place goes to the elderly UK politician who decked the 20-something guy who pied him.
:-)
I'm not entirely sure that "elderly" is fair, although the politician in question (John Prescott) must be in his (late?) fifties; I guess that's elderly to the average slashdotter. Also, it wasn't a pie, it was an egg.
To put it in context a little, Mr Prescott was apparently an amateur boxer in his younger days, whilst in the navy I think. I don't think he was anything particularly special, but personally I wouldn't tangle with an ex-boxer
(Said guy than had the nerve to whine about it.)
Not that it did him any good - the police decided not to press charges.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
In reference to the "green screen of death" linked to in the article, since *when* is a simple error message the same as the machine dieing?
./file.jpg
Here, try this: place a single jpeg file in your home directory. Do `chmod +x file.jpg` Now do
Doesn't work? Oh, too bad. Well guess what? It's the *SAME THING HERE*.
Get a clue, Michael. Just because someone doesn't use plain text on a console terminal to show error messages doesn't mean that the machine has crashed.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
stop right now with how wrong you are.
Dreamcast was NOT a windows box. Dammit i wish people would stop talking about shit they are ignorant of.
Sega and Microsoft made a Windows CE target for the dreamcast hardware, so you could IF YOU WANTED TO, develop your GAME using Windows CE. The Windows CE was _purely_ optional and it was on the GAME DISC, not the console.
Now, on to xbox:
No xbox i've ever played or seen has crashed.
The "green screen of death" picture everyone made such a big deal out of was a developer/debug unit...
Finally, its a bit different than "Windoze" and a Pentium.
Saying XBox is Windows + pentium is saying PS1 is an SGI Indigo with gcc. If you're such a brilliant damn embedded engineer, please tell me how microsoft can fit 30 or 100 or whatever it is many MEGABYTES of windows code into the xbox roms ?
Let's review:
The XBOX uses a PII based cpu.
It has 64MB of UMA memory.
It completely omits the traditional PC northbridge/southbridge/whatever chips for its own purposes.
It has a GPU that YOU CANNOT BUY FOR A PC.
It runs a Windows 2000 _derived_ kernel _in rom_.
As an embedded engineer, you of all people should realize that sticking an x86 family proc in something doesnt' make it any more of a PC than having an R3000 in a playstation makes it a Silicon Graphics machine.
So please, stop lending your profession to your incorrect analysis. It continues the spread of incorrect information, and it makes you look like a big dumbass.
(Even more so than all my profanity makes me look like one)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
"The CPU is from intel, the GPU from nVidia, and the console from Microsoft. Support the U.S.!"
The Intel CPU is manufactured in Asia, the console was farmed to Flextronics and is being built in Mexico.
And to add another argument, is it really patriotic to buy poorly made products in your own country so you can reward people who can't do the job as well as people in other countries? The argument didn't wash with cars in the 80's.
Now if they changed that to Master Chef - and had Lloyd Grossman flying around in a shiny suit - they might have a surefire hit.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
It has to be quiet, and not look like a computer.
It is real hard to find a PC that does not need active cooling. Some of the STBs today come close... the Allwell iDVD3036 looks interesting, and anything with the Sigma Designs 8400 MPEG2 decoder reduces the need to do MPEG2 in software and thus the need for a fast (i.e. hot) CPU.
If I were to use a PC, I'd probably go for i810 video with a NetStream2000TV card. Adding a 3d Graphics card will almost certainly mean a fan or two. The again, gaming is not my primary goal, but MPEG2 video streaming is, so i810 mobo video is adequate.
The Netstream Console is also interesting.
You could've hired me.
I tried those games on the N64 and I found all FPS games except Goldeneye to be virtually unplayable. I simply could not get the thing to respond quickly enough. Doom would've played nice since there's no need for a Z-axis there, but come on already. Goldeneye handled this by controlling the Z-axis for you; the others didn't. Wasn't really that great though. Want to jump off a catwalk in Goldeneye to surprise someone? Forget it, use the ramp. It just couldn't handle it.
GoldenEye was a good game, to a point. After killing about 900 anonymous soldiers though, it got a bit tedious and started to become a huge pain in the ass.
Multiplayer was better, but I never figured out why Nintendo didn't hack in a simple Appletalk-like protocol with USB ports or something so you could network the boxes. Put some of those together with some smallish TV sets, and multiplayer would have been a whole lot better. I'm not a big believer in the multiplayer+single screen thing anymore; unless you're talking about Tetris or Mario Party or something like that.
Also, Goldeneye made me motion sick far quicker than any FPS I played before or since, and I won't touch it anymore.
In short, the best games we played on the N64 have been Tetris (my wife's preference), Zelda64 (with the walkthrough of course, and I won't touch Majora's Mask as I'm afraid of the time suckage), and Diddy Kong.
FWIW though, I did like the N64 controller. It was especially natural to use during Mario64 and Diddy Kong.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Didn't know that gaming consoles were noisy (I don't own one). I will grant that fancy 3d graphics rendering will probably require an actively-cooled graphics chip for the forseeable future. While I have seen monster copper passive heatsinks for them, they haven't reviewed well.
Ironically, the closest thing I have now to an STB is my Sony DTC-HD100 Satellite/Terrestrial HDTV receiver which has a fan in it that is on all the time.
You could've hired me.
To verify your claim about Halo being too much hype - one only needs to look at Oni: expectations vs. reality.
Sigh.
The thing is - in BOTH of these games, demos had much touted awesome features, that the final versions did not.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I used to have a jpeg with a capture of my old Sony XBR displaying such a desktop and an xatitv window showing the live image capturing the TV in the frame (displaying such a desktop and... ad infinitum). I should dig it up.
You could've hired me.
The whole point I was trying to make is that when the ethernet and the hard drive are standard parts of the game, developers will use it.. but to say that no games support ethernet, so why get ethernet?
Sounds like a chicken and egg scenerio , nobody is going to develop it until ethernet is standard. Same with caching and hard drives, etc.
I am actually very excited at the prospect of being able to load up media onto a console and use it for playing media (such as mp3's, whatever) in the living room.
Cheers
This could change if someone ports linux to it though.
That's why I bought a Dreamcast.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
no. YOU are wrong.
:)
The xbox GPU is NOT the GF3 gpu. The XBox GPU has an additional shader unit, and one "other thing", iirc, that the gF3 chipset does not.
the nForce is not a UMA chipset. XBOX is absolutely a UMA system. thus, i feel 95% confident in saying xbox is not nforce.
if you want to keep this up, i'll go find links
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
It's only an advantage to them if you buy the games. The just the parts in these puppies are worth far more than $300, albeit not in large quantity purchases, but either way M$ still loses with every hardware sale. Do I smell another "NetPliance Iopener" on the horizon? Except this one has a guaranteed supply due to the strength of its backer! So what we need is for someone to hack the Xbox sufficiently to make it easy to load Linux. Then someone needs to reverse engineer the NVidia chipset to gain access to 2D, 3D, and any video / mpeg2 related functionality.
True enough that MS currently dominates, but I think that everyone can agree that that was due to illegal practices on Microsoft's part.
Not really. In fact the whole Netscape thing seems to be
one of the few cases where MS fought fairly.
MS beat Netscape because Netscape allowed their browser to stagnate, while MS made huge leaps on theirs.
Netscape got complacent, and lost the market because of it.
It wasn't the bundling of IE that killed NS, it's because NS's browser sucked in comparison with IE.
C-X C-S
here
You could've hired me.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hypocrites like Michael are pretty quick to accuse Microsoft of using it, but as demonstrated above, they have no qualms about using it themselves.
Tell us again how Linux has the moral high-ground, Michael.
Heh... yeah, I've always loved hearing people call the Mac "a toy, because it has no good games."
My guess has always been that playing the Monotonous-FPS-of-the Month on a Windows box rots the part of the brain that allows irony to be detected.
As for the XBox, I'm not buying it, or the GameCube, or the PS2. Got enough classic consoles to keep me happy, the ones that were made back when gameplay mattered... not just the same three lame styles of games with purtier and purtier pixchurs every year.
~Philly
That is kind of peculiar. The local Software Etc. has their PS2 demo machines turned off also.
It could very well be Microsoft demanding this. But perhaps store owners are just trying to get people to concentrate on X-Box products for the moment.
For starters, how about "Twisted Metal Black"?
To this game's credit, you really can drive your car around anywhere on the "playing field". When you're stopped from driving any further, it's because there's a real barrier there, such as a chain-link fence or a building. None of that "Star Wars" game concept of "pan a little bit to the left or to the right, but we'll stop you here because we didn't want to develop more scenery past this point".
Also, you seem to completely discount all of the sports titles for PS2, which are probably among the most played games on consoles, period. Many a console (of all types) has been purchased mainly so people can compete in a round of NHL Hockey or Football.
Really, I think the overall complaint that "everything seems like you're watching scenery scroll towards you" can be argued equally for PC games. How many Doom/Quake/UT remakes do we need on the PC anyway?
When you compromise by only providing a joystick type controller and not a full-blown keyboard, you automatically limit the genres of games suitable for the system. I think the PS2 and all other consoles serve their intended purpose very well. Considering a low-res TV set is the primary display device, you can't cram lots of text on the screen anyway. What other types of games do you have in mind to put on one?
I would argue on Pope Slackman's behalf that Microsoft _did_ play fairly on this issue.
I think the whole bundling argument is just so much horse hocky. Does Ford compete unfairly against Blaupunkt because their cars and trucks come with stereos installed? I have never heard an argument that draws any real distinction between this example and Microsoft bundling useful tools with their OS. Why didn't people complain about WordPad, or Minesweeper, or edlin?! After Dark managed to overcome the fact that Windows 3 came with built in screensavers because they offered something more. It's not Microsoft's fault that they wrote a better browser. (Of course, it is their fault when they strong-armed OEMs into not letting _them_ bundle Netscape, but let's face it, if Netscape was good enough, they would have figured out a way to overcome customers' reluctance to switch from the default.)
In any event, this was clearly a case of Netscape not being able to cut it technically and being a cry-baby because there was already a groundswell over the fact that Microsoft has done many other unfair things. Of course, anyone with brains realized this around 1990, but by the time it reached the courts it really didn't matter anymore.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Maybe it's only because I didn't hear of the hype, but Oni is one my favourite games. Sure it would be a little longer-lasting if it had multiplayer, but I'm curious: what "awesome featuers" were touted in Oni that didn't make it into the release?
- j
"Now if they changed that to Master Chef - and had Lloyd Grossman flying around in a shiny suit - they might have a surefire hit."
... they could have had an absolutely vicious Corn Battle. Or maybe a Pheasant Battle.
Or Iron Chef
er, mine does... and 1080i too!
You could've hired me.
In spite of the fact that I already think that people are incredibly stupid, and in spite of seeing decades of evidence of the incredible stupidity of people on probably at least a weekly basis, stories like this (these eBay auctions) still somehow manage to boggle my mind and make me shake my head in wonder and disbelief. I find myself searching for possible rational explanations. So far the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me is that perhaps the bidders on these auctions were mostly foreigners with very poor English skills (possibly having recently moved e.g. to the US), who would not only easily have misunderstood the descriptions (understanding probably mostly just the main keywords), but would themselves (in a sort of naive trusting of people, and in good faith) never have believed or even considered that anyone would attempt such ridiculous auctions. If that was the case, I wonder if there would be any legal implications. Probably not, but still, if somebody deliberately and knowingly conned a naive immigrant with poor English skills, it seems a bit on the shady side.
"Microsoft CURES AIDS AND CANCER"
Yeah, that would be great. I'm sure everyone with either disease would love to have re-purchase the cure every year or have Microsoft employees come out and re-infect them.
Yes, this is a poke at Microsoft and their ridiculous love of licensing. Why? I just got my MCP "Welcome" info packet yesterday, and the certificate was in an envelope with what was essentially a EULA sticker sealing it shut. I have to agree to some contract to read a piece of paper or hang it on my wall? Pfft!
I can't wait to see how Microsoft deals with people who beat or become bored with X-Box games and try to resell them on eBay or at Funcoland.
~Philly
I lost all interest in the conclusions of this article once I saw the author. Check out this previous article of his, on the game "Black & White".
Salon review of Black & White
There was a lot of pure hype "reviews" of this game that had nothing to do with the reality, but this is the worst one I ever read.
Here's some quotes to give you the tone:
Tell me, those of you unfortunate enough to have purchased this game, are these fair comments? I know hardly anyone who even bothered to finish it, it was so annoying, repetitive, and simple-minded. And that's not even considering the massive bugs that made it damn near impossible to play for the first six months of its release. Not that any of these things stopped Wagner James Au from transcribing his fantasies.
I imagine his review of the X-Box has about the same level of insight and realism.
Think about this for a moment. Why exactly is it that Microsoft is getting into the console business? The answer to that is elementary. Up until now the PC gaming industry has been small potatoes compared to the console gaming industry. This despite the fact that PCs are generally more powerful, and more flexible than consoles, and the fact that PCs are useful for stuff besides playing games (even stodgy accounts have a computer, and are therefore part of the potential market).
You might consider getting a DSL connection and hooking it up to your X-Box so you can play some WAN games, but I can guarantee you that most people are not interested in adding another $40/month to their budget so that they can play games on-line. Even worse, most of the people that are willing to play games online already have a computer outfitted to do precisely that!
It's no wonder the number of projected games for the X-Box is positively anemic. Why should software developers pay Microsoft for the privilege of making games for the X-Box when they can target the (currently) larger PC gamer market for free. The $500 that I would spend on an X-Box package would actually buy a fairly decent PC (or at least a significant upgrade to an existing PC), and there are lots of PC games coming down the pike. I know that I personally would much rather have a more powerful general purpose PC than a toy that plays PC games.
Microsoft's X-Box's one true advantage is that it is supposedly easy to develop for. Well that's neat, but it's only easy to develop for because it is a PC. If you simply develop your game for the PC, then you will likely target a bigger market, and you won't have to pay a development fee to Microsoft to help them recover their losses selling the X-Box hardware.
In other words, Microsoft is aiming their console squarely at an absolutely tiny market, one that is probably even smaller than the PC gaming market they are trying to escape. If it wasn't for the fact that Microsoft has money to burn on talented developers they wouldn't have a chance.
From an article at Cnet.com about techie Christmas gifts and who wants what:
"Executives
Weellll . .
We're not surprised, are we?
None of that "Star Wars" game concept of "pan a little bit to the left or to the right, but we'll stop you here because we didn't want to develop more scenery past this point".
Amen from the highest fucking rooftops. I wish Lucasarts would make another genuine flight simulator like XWA, rather than Yet Another Shitty Arcade Game like Rogue Squadron and Rogue Leader.
Oh, silly me. Crappy arcade games take less time and less people to develop. Cheaper to make equals higher profit margin if successful and lower losses if it bombs. What could I have been thinking?
I have to say that I'm a pc gamer. I like some console games but there aren't many that make me drool like they do on the pc. sure I might be tied to Windows for games at this time but i just prefer playing games ont he pc. the other thing is that the only game thats on the xbox that i want to play is Halo. that might come to the pc/mac eventually and I'll play it then . if it doesn't then oh well. I'm not shelling that much cash for a system that has one game that I might play. Halo might be cool but its no FF7 or Tekken thsoe are the games that got me to buy a PSone.
-
The problem is, company profiteering notwithstanding, they're making it obvious that's all they're interested in. "Oh look! The gaming industry has lots of money! We can get some of that!"
There's a term for this sort of behavior. You might want to write this down for future reference, so I'll wait for you to get a pencil. Ready? Good. The term is:
Microsoft is expanding into a new market to try to increase profits? Say it ain't so! What, exactly, do you think is the purpose of a company? I realize that we're dealing with Microsoft, and therefore required to hate them, but seriously--companies exist to make money. You want to see expansion into a new market? Look at Sony--I have a 25 year old Sony TV. That's long before the PlayStation was a gleam in some engineer's eye. At some point after my TV was made, Sony decided to get into the game console market. Have you noticed that they now have a music division, and movie division (Sony Pictures Studios), and several other divisions not related to their previous business of building non-interactive entertainment hardware (stereos, TV's, etc.)?
If Microsoft wants to diverisfy its business, let them. If you think about it for a bit, you'll realize that it's almost certain to be a good thing. Look at the options:
In any event, the introduction of a new system will create competition, driving down prices and spurring innovation. End result: consumer wins. Leave the Xbox alone, and let the market decide.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
Come on. The comment was a joke.
Here...I'll explain it for you though. Every Windows owner has probably seen the BSoD. Windows is made by a little company called Microsoft. Microsoft has also started selling home game consoles. Therefore, it would be a good joke to relate the BSoD from Windows to this new console. That might be funny, huh? Don't just rant about this joke being MS-bashing. Laugh a little.
But the XBox has a VGA output (and can interface to HDTV) so you CAN have hi-res console gaming!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
most importantly, sony has too much money for MS to go head to head wit them by selling an 'equivilent' product at a loss.
netscape OTOH just didn't have enough money to compete against MS when MS started screwing them by giving MS away for free.
If I had enough money to build and give away cars for free, I would eventually dominate the market. Then I could charge usage fees.
Of course If I did that I would be shut down for unfair trade, and illegal use of an monopoly.
But rules like that din't apply to software companies when the bush family is in office.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Apparently, the guy who wrote this doesn't remember the PS2 launch. Other than SSX and Madden, there weren't any incredible games either. In fact, for the first few months I had mine, I kept wondering when the good games were going to show up. Of course, now they are showing up -- GTA3, TH3, Half-Life, MSG2 -- and more, but it took a year. I think it would be better to look a year from now and see what kind of games are around for both consoles, and then judge.
-- Hobbits suck!
no...let them rot on the shelf till obsolete (say, 6 mos.) *that* will hurt ms.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I work at a Best Buy, and our Xbox display unit freezes at least once every two hours, and we have to reset it. ( I usually leave it froze until a customer asks me to reset it, so more people can see that this thing freezes, heh heh). So far our gamecube has not froze once, we can leave it on all day with no problems. The only difference between the display units and the consumer ones is the demo units don't have the hard drive.
There are a lot of filesystems that rarely need to be defragged. Most high performance filesystems don't really need it at all. When was the last time you defragmented a NTFS drive, or an ext2 drive? (Which is not to say it's never done, but I've never had to do it.)
J
LEGAL - DMCA
There have been a few comments here that seem to seriously misconstrue what the DMCA is capable of, so let's review that then take a look at reverse-engineering case history.
"Ella the Cat" fished for ideas on what the Microsoft team might have done to keep unauthorized software off their box, then worried about DMCA implications. "Chakat" suggested that circumventing MS's only-signed-discs-may-apply code could be a DMCA violation.
I won't quote it all, but here's chapter 12 of the US Code. 1201(b) is what Dmitry's been charged under. It only prohibits devices that circumvent methods that "effectively protects a right of a copyright owner."
In this case, Microsoft can claim copyright on the BIOS in the Xbox. Suppose that we remove the MS-BIOS and replace it with one that'll boot anything (L-BIOS). We've circumvented a measure that prevented running unauthorized games, but that authorization or lack of has no legal weight behind it. Microsoft must enforce it themselves by creating strong measures.
We have to be careful that L-BIOS doesn't allow booting copies of games or we will run afoul of the DMCA.
LEGAL - Reverse Engineering
The Emulation FAQ AppendixB Appendix C provides a good background. Also see CASE SUMMARIES OF COMPUTER COPYRIGHT CASES and Overreaching Provisions in Software License Agreements by Michael Liberman.
The two cases that I think are most apropos are Sega v. Accolade and Sony v. Connectix. Accolade tried to create Genesis-compatible games. Connectix tried to emulate the Playstation. Both cases were about copyrights on games that were disassembled in order to figure out how the game machine worked. The odd thing to me is that disassembling the code and creating a work that used the ideas contained therin was no problem. What Sony & Sega attacked on was making a copy of the ROM into a computer's memory to do the disassembling. The courts found (post-DMCA in the Sony case) that the copying was fair use to gain access to the ideas. Copyright only applies to the expression of those ideas in the object code of the ROM.
Disassembling MS-BIOS to figure out how to talk to the memory, USB and hard disk controllers and create L-BIOS is perfectly legal. It's important to avoid copying MS-BIOS code directly and a clean room would be a good idea (the disassemblers send specs to the L-BIOS authors who never see the actual code), but it seems that Connectix did not employ clean room techniques and got away with it.
TECHNICAL
The Xbox System Software Overview says in part:
The ROM [...] will provide the following [...] services: FAT32 file system, UDFS file system, Copy-protection support, Certificate/signature validation
Supported media are CD, DVD, CD-RW, or DVD-R. There is no CD-R support.
Power Up- When the user turns on the console, the system software is decompressed out of read-only memory (ROM) into random access memory (RAM). Once in RAM, the system software initializes the hardware[....]
Media Detection- Upon power up [...] If it determines that the media [in the DVD drive] is a game, it loads the game into RAM, checks the signature of the game to verify that it is an authentic copy, then starts playing the game.
-
So it appears that MS-BIOS will only boot signed (presumably using strong encryption) DVDs. There are, of course, two answers to this:
1) Replace the MS-BIOS with a more pleasant L-BIOS that'll boot anything and perhaps boot off the hard drive instead of the DVD. Loading "real" games sounds pretty hairy and I'd rather not figure out how to do that, so you won't be able to play them anymore. I'm envisioning replacing the Flash ROM (I have access to a nice Nikon binocular microscope and a Metcal soldering iron for working on surface mount parts), but there are a couple of alternatives: a) piggy-back on a 2nd ROM containing L-BIOS except for chip-select which is hooked to a switch or b) use the JTAG port to reprogram the part in-circuit (only possible with some mfg.'s parts).
2) Figure out how to sign our own discs. This is a good excuse for me to get a DVD recorder. I'm concerned that this method is fewer steps away from a "mod chip" that plays duplicated games.
-
Well, that's what I've found out. I'm interested because it sounds like it'll be sort of hard. If we need to hook up a logic analyzer & watch MS's code do its thing I can handle that. I think getting Linux up & running, talking to keyboards & mice over USB & doing TCP/IP over the ethernet port shouldn't be too bad. Getting basic graphics (VGA emulation) up shouldn't be bad, but I make no promises that we'll be able to use the nVidia 3d. I'm thinking a server is a lot more likely than a nuevo-Indrema/TuxBox.
Worst case scenario is that the chipset itself has encryption hardware built-in and it must be unlocked by the CPU before it will enable access to RAM or peripherals. I doubt they had enough time to do something that clever.
By the way, you can reach me at morganw@yahoo.com (posting preferences not workin' for me)
The specs for the PS2 list the screen resolution as variable from 256x244 to 1280x1024. A far cry from being limited to 480i.
Then it is remarkable that he managed to be completely correct, isn't it?
- An XBox developer
now if you could only get yourself a broadband adapter for less than you payed for the system itself. +)
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
No kidding. I can almost buy two machines for the price of what some people want for broadband adapters.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Isn't strange how fucking stupid the slashdot crowd is sometimes, especially something involving Microsoft. One genius posed the question "Do you think Gates and Balmer can envision great games?" Do you REALLY FUCKING THINK BILL GATES DESIGNS GAMES FOR THE XBOX? Other quite intelligent people are telling everyone they ought to buy XBoxes because Microsoft HAS to be losing money on each one you buy. The factories spitting out the XBox make just about every component in the console with most components being contained on a single board. It is very cheap to manufacture SBCs. The 300$ price tag doesn't leave much room for profit but they aren't losing anym oney on the damn boxes. Stop using pricewatch.com to find the prices of computer hardware and then trying to extrapolate the price of a console system. Others claim the XBox is little more than commodity PC hardware in a little black box. The memory subsystem isn't exactly an i815 chipset or something. Buy one if you want or don't buy one if you don't want to play the games. I'm waiting for Sunday to pick up a Gamecube. I can get a console and a couple games for the price of a PS2 or XBox console. Plus I get something for my GBA to talk to.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
you even quoted the part where i explain what i meant.
Was that the part where you said
there are currently no games which i could see benefitting from this on any console, nor any in the future.
Your subtlety amazes me. I guess by saying "nor any in the future," you meant "lots of games in the future." It's clear that I'm dealing with a superior thinker here, so I'll try my best to stay on your good side.
Geez, no!
First of all, I wouldn't want to use an XBox controller -- I'd use a standard remote or airmouse to navigate throught a browser-like interface on the TV or monitor screen.
Second, the problem is that I have a number of devices (well, just three, right now, but it will grow) that all want to provide a menu system on the TV screen: i.e. the TV itself, the Satellite receiver, and the VCR. The TV will pop up it's menu over whatever program is displayed, and the other equipment displays it on a chained RF output and individual component and svideo outputs going to different inputs on the TV.
The implication of all this mess is that I can't control one device while watching another (i.e. program the VCR while watching a movie); the TV menu and other menus can pop up tother (what a mess), and I have no control over how the satellite receiver program guide is displayed).
It strikes me that it would be far more convenient if I had a multi-window browser displayed on the TV where I could select and control sources. Naturally, the current streamed video would usually take up the background and there would not be a foreground browser displayed.
IOW, if I wanted to receive a satellite program, I'd click on the satellite hyperlink and get a window of satellite video and a control panel for the satellite. Same for VCR. Same for sreamed video from some web site... Browsing slashdot would be trivial. Now, there might be a limit to the number of video feeds I could select simultaneously (because of overlay window hardware limits), but a background and a movable foreground window should be adequate.
When hubbing in new equipment, it could "register" with the "master" display contoller, and could update it's top level menu accordingly. Other hyperlinks could be added manually via keyboard and a bit of cgi. If you're gonna have a keyboard, you could use it for email, and interactive forms, but I see the use of a keyboard more for configuration than anything else.
Basically, think of the TV/receiver as a computer with browser, and all other equipment as web servers.
The Web-based UI works for so many disparate sites, that I can't see it failing here. The only enhancement I could conceive is a "universal" remote which causes certain "hot" buttons to match similarly tagged hyperlinks on the page displayed, so FWD, REV, VOL+, VOL-, CH+, CH-, etc. do what you'd expect. Anything "fancy" would require manually mousing and clicking on the appropriate link.
You could've hired me.
What's wrong with HDTV? At the high end, it carries a price premium of less than $1000. You can get a good Sony HDTV 53" for $2500 while a comparable Sony non-HDTV runs around $1800. Not a bad deal, considering a TV easily lasts you five or six years. Plus, there is a lot more programming these days, and (with new DVD players) DVDs look really good on HDTV.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...