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Methanol Fuel-Cell Battery For Your Laptop?
Nick writes: "I ran across this accidentally when I was researching fuel cell cars. They have come out with a little methanol fuel-cell battery they hope will be more powerful than lithium ion batteries, at competitive prices too! (well, in five years maybe) Also check out howstuffworks for a great article on fuel cells in general." Beating Li-Ion batteries by a factor of ten is a very worthy goal.
Does this mean gas pumps at CompUSA?
I'd like to see this come about.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
It would be interesting to fill my car AND Laptop up at the same time. Then my watch, oh and don't forget my TV too!
Life is like pants... fit in or you don't fit in.
Neat! :)
A similar article was posted here before, dealing with Methane batteries for cell phones.
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Didn't slashdot cover this like last year? Great now we are recycling old news now?
I am a republican not by choice, but rather by lack there of.
don't drink the batteries: methanol will get you blind, ethanol will get you drunk.
cheers
completive? or competitive?
how about slashdot hires the grammar nazi?
It remains to be seen how people will react to having to 'refill' their laptops. It won't take too many methanol spills on the carpeting for somebody to bail on the whole idea.
Batteries suck compared to fuel cells, certainly, but just plugging the laptop in to recharge is about the nicest possible way to deal with power. I know I'd rather carry around an AC adapter than a container of methanol. Further, I don't have to run to the store to buy more electricity when I run out; people may react badly to needing to buy refills.
I love the concept as much as the next guy, but I've been wondering if the practicalities won't end up killing it in the marketplace.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Hazards incurred by gasoline releases are greater than those of methanol releases, and will persist much longer in the environment.A recent study performed by EA Engineering examined what the costs would be to implement different methanol retail systems. They concluded that a new methanol retail system could be installed for approximately $70,000 and an existing gasoline tank could be cleaned, the pumps and plumbing replaced for as little as $19,000.
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...a previous slashdot story involving Motorola's attempt at powering cell phones with similar methane-powered fuel cells.
i would rather have amee and her battery from red planet..
I hope you were kidding about that... Methanol is highly toxic and leads to blindness and kidney failure.
Then again, I haven't read a good Darwin award lately....
So... when can I play Civ III, Rogue Spear, or Counterstrike on the whole trainride to Florida to visit my grandparents over a Bluetooth network?
I saw that the new Dell laptops can come with the proper network adapters.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
The above post is an editorial, the poster cannot and will not be held responsible for all or in part for it's contents
Besides, don't fuel cells create a lot of heat?
The benefit is you get lots of drinking water and fresh air while using your laptop! :-D
Someone needs to come up with an ethanol fuel cell, and when you run out, just fill it back up with cheap vodka.
That guy on the bus who plays Quake on his notebook computer just got ten times as annoying!
Seriously though, how do you recharge a fuel cell. The howstuffworks article covers hydrogen fuel cells which you recharge by... inserting more hydrogen. They also make water, bad for notebooks. This prototype looks like a sealed system and being billed as a replacement for Li-Ion, which means it's rechargeable and doesn't leak. "Carbon nanotubes" are very cool but there's nearly no mention of an application to new forms of fuel cells in the literature. This press release is great but... where's the science?
Just curious.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
What I'd like to know is whether these batteries will have a so-called memory. Until Li-Ion batteries became common in laptops, cell phones and camcorders, I remember that you had to completely empty out the batteries before recharging them or you'd drastically shorten their lives. For example, let's say you have a 30-minute battery for your camcorder. If you used it for 15 minutes and then charged it, then from now on, the battery will only last 15 minutes. This can be a little annoying for a camcorder, because if your battery was partially empty and you wanted it full to record some event, you'd have to plan ahead and leave the camera running to empty out the battery, then wait several hours for it to completely recharge. (Yeah, recharging times were very slow on these batteries.) On the other hand, while this is merely annoying for cameras, think of the effect it has on laptops--you'd have to leave your laptop running until it runs out of power and shuts off abruptly. This is a constant problem for computers. Li-Ion batteries are not subject to this "memory" problem, and they also charge pretty quickly, if I know what I'm talking about. For example, the battery in my phone lasts about three days (one if I talk a lot) and takes only hours to charge. (I don't know exactly how many hours because I've never sat there watching the damn thing.) If these fuel-cell batteries are small, don't have a memory, last longer AND have much faster charging times, then I think they will eventually replace Li-Ion batteries.
...explosive laptops, as Processors become more and more difficult to cool, even.
What fun.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I suppose that the manufacturer would initially charge a lot for these, but refill kits would appear shortly.
Stefan
I even saw it during the presidential debates...
People, people, people... if methanol fuel cells become a reality, you can be sure they will be fairly well self-contained. If you're so worried about spills, do you were a hazmat suit everytime you fill up your car with EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS AND FLAMABLE GASOLINE?
I grow tired of the "gee that can't work, it might spill" everytime fuel cells are mentioned on slashdot.
I would think this would be hampered by its limited cell life. The platinum catalyst used by the cells electrodes will be poisoned by the methanol.
The basic problem is that the power storage technology has not kept up with the large demands for power.
We need something non-flammable and far less toxic. Maybe a zinc-air solution.
When I first glanced at the title, I thought it said "methane" powered. I just had a bowl of chile beans, a pickled egg, and a beer for lunch. If you could power a computer with methane, then I'm ready to light up a server room full of IBM z390's.
Seriously OT, but I just _had_ to stop & admire your sig :)
"Sanity is not statistical", George Orwell, "1984"
It's a possibility that I could get a Fuel-Cell battery, Lead acid, etc, but the only way I could use it with my laptop would be through the external powersupply connector, which means all the power management tools I normally have would know squat about the remaining time on the battery, since it would think it's running off an adaptor.
Neat idea, but some solutions aren't so straight forward. For now I'll use the charger to run it, and a Tripp Lite inverter to run it while away from home, but in my vehicle.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Finally, a notebook that will capitalize on the farts from my tacos. No more dead batteries, no more charging at inopportune times. A seemingly endless supply of noxious power. My co-workers will be pleased.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
I thought innovative ideas were outlawed by the DMCA.
Wonder if they could get something that worked on Ethanol. Then maybe to refuel your laptop you could just go get a shot of Rum 151 at the local bar.
This can't be good for the ozone layer.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
With a fuel cell, I guess Apple's problem of self-igniting PowerBooks should be REAL interesting soon...
While you certainly shouldn't start downing shots of methanol, it really isn't terribly toxic by comparison. If you got it on your clothes it would simply evaporate. The heavy metal sludge you find in most modern batteries makes methanol look pretty tame by comparison. It also means that the environmental impact of the used up batteries will be far less than current batteries.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
This idea really stinks!
"And like that
Check the November issue of Technology Review. It has an accessible article about this very subject:
s p
http://www.techreview.com/magazine/nov01/voss.a
It's quite interesting.
From a couple 'o months ago:0 20 2&mode=thread
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/03/135
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
Okay folks:
Ethanol - the alcohol that makes beer, wine, and liquor much more fun.
Methanol - the alcohol that, if you drink it, will at the very least blind you and probably do a bunch of other damage to your organs.
Methane - the end result of having chili for lunch
It is not fart powered, and you can't run it on Stoli, okay?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The one I saw, intended for eventual use in cell phones, was basically what looked like a sandwich of plexiglass and some spongy material. Two wires ran off from the sponge to connect to the contacts for a small fan. You'd take a bottle of methanol, squirt it on the sponge, and the fan would start to spin, slowly at first, and building up in speed as the cell heated up to optimum temperature (which I think was around 50-60 degrees celsius).
Cell phones make a good first application for this kind of technology (as opposed to cars) because the price/performance ratio is high (cell phones are expensive for the amount of power they use) and the performance/weight is relatively low (you don't need a really big stack to drive cell phone). If the fuel-cell cell phone (or even just a widget to replace the battery) costs ten times as much, but lasts ten times as long, is fully "rechargeable" with a one-minute application of methanol (which could come in sealed, disposable plastic tubes, or you could fill it the same way you fill a butane lighter), and has no "memory" problems, then you've got a real winner. People will pay $1000 for a cell phone (they did when the StarTAC first came out).
A car that costs ten times as much doesn't work, because that puts even a cheapie car into six figures. You have to get the price-performance ratio of fuel cells way way down before they become useful for cars. However, for cars, methanol distribution may not be a big problem - some researchers are working on gasoline-driven fuel cells. Not as clean as methanol (which exhausts CO_2 and H_2O), but cleaner than combustion, and the distribution infrastructure is already in place. There's still a price/performance problem, because gasoline-powered fuel cells effectively have a full chemistry lab built in, with three or four stages to go through before the actual power production. They also operate at much higher temperatures.
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells are nifty because they're solid-state. A catalyst (platinum, I think) drives the methanol/oxygen -> power/water/carbon dioxide reaction. They do have problems with supporting rapid changes in electrical draw, however. Typically this is handled by putting them in series with a capacitor. The capacitor can soak up rapid increases in demand, while the cell itself adjusts.
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Klactovedestene!
I found this company already have from their research aswell using their direct Methanol approach.
e s/ frame.htm
http://www.mechtech.com/
Unfortunately to see the picture of the prototype, you have to go through Dr Ackers Powerpoint slides.
Here are the slides
http://www.mechtech.com/investors/power2001_fil
That thinks people will pay a penny/page to surf the web!
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
There were these links:
-
Consumer Hydrogen Fuel Cells by michael with 518 comments on 05:14 PM -- Friday September 28 2001
- Motorola Makes Gasoline Powered Cell Phones by CmdrTaco with 242 comments on 10:19 AM -- Wednesday October 03 2001
- The (Possible) Future of Alternative Energy by michael with 450 comments on 10:56 PM -- Tuesday November 06 2001
- Fuel Cells For (Military) Portable Computing by timothy with 141 comments on 10:56 PM -- Saturday April 14 2001
- Portable Fuel Cell Technology by Hemos with 286 comments on 06:52 PM -- Wednesday January 19 2000
Looks like you might just have to fuel it up (nb the motorola story). Just don't be a heavy smoker. [smile]"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
:-)
I'm not a chemical engineer (IANACE) - but I wonder if a by product of one of these batteries would be methane gas, which is quite flamable (and smelly).
And if one of these leaked, would it smell like someone was flatulent after a nite of drinking cheap american beer and eating lots of taco bell?
[Connection closed by foreign host]
I wish *I* could visit my grandparents over a Bluetooth network. :-)
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
I read this after hearing on the radio a massive LiIon Battery Fire Recal announcement. :) WAAY faster than LiIon batteries and plastic.
Which makes me think... i'm guessing the amount of methanol is fairly small, but geez.. that stuff's GOTTA burn nice
hehe.. combination fuel cell and camp stove! YES! haha
In a clean combustion the process looks like this
2*CH3OH + 3*O2 => 2*CO2 + 4*H2O
No methane (CH4) would result from this. And unless I'm mistaken, methane is oderless. What you "smell" in methane is usually a sulfurous compound bound to a CH3- molecule.
Granted, I haven't studied chemestry in more than three years, but regarding the methane not smelling, my dictionary agrees with me:
"An odorless, colorless, flammable gas, CH4, the major constituent of natural gas, that is used as a fuel and is an important source of hydrogen and a wide variety of organic compounds."
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
After this Homer says, "See! Because of me, they have a warning."
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Or have you never seen someone light a fart?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
It also has a breakdown of the companies working on this technology as well as their estimation on delivery time.
I wish there was a fscking blue pill
I guess "Blue Screen of Death" could be replaced with "Fiery Hand-Removing Explosion of Death" in this case...
------
Let me give you the lowdown
The real question is would Laptop/Cellphone "battery life" actually go up or would manufacturers just add "instant, always on, hot dog cooking functions."
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Supposedly the byproduct of the reaction is water, which sounds good in principle. But where the does water go? Do you need to have a reservior for the water, or am I going to stand up with a wet lap after a long plane trip?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I know I'd rather carry around an AC adapter than a container of methanol.
Nevermind trying to get something like that through the airport these days...
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
Cheap fuel cells always seem to be 5 years in the future...!
Since termites produce such a large amount of methane will I be able to write off my house as a termite farm on my taxes?
Isn't it interesting how the Japanese have an apprantly high tolerance for companies expanding into quite a few horizontal areas. Have you ever noticed that there are a lot of cool things that come from Japanese companies that are better known for more common things like cars (Honda's robot, Mitsubishi creating OS's for example) or the Matsushita/Panasonic company which makes all kinds off stuff. Now we have computer company, mostly, making FuelCell batteries.
Why don't we see these types of things from American companies? Is it a lack of R&D? Legal restrictions on how far they can spread horizontally? Or just a lack of interest? Where are the cool ideas from American companies? And don't give me iPod.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/03/135020 2&mode=thread
Been there done that.
there are 2 kinds of people. those who divide people into 2 kinds, and those who don't.
ive seen a lot of comments complaining about having to fill up your laptop, etc.. not many smokers out there i take it! it would probably be like filling a butane ligher, Zippo, or better yet like a disposable lighter. The technology exist... you can doooo it man!
"Shut up brain or ill stab you with a Q-tip" Homer Simpson
Anyone here _ever_ refilled a butane powered product?
Notice how the "spilled" butane simply cools the device and evaporates in seconds.
Jeez, why is this going to be different?
Actually, the phenomenon you're describing is related not to the battery's charge containing capacity so much as its charge delivery capacity. This same thing happens to car batteries left on cold concrete floors. The charge doesn't disappear from the battery (well, a tiny bit does), but as the battery cools its ability to deliver the charge decreases. You'll find that if you chill a fully-charged battery, it'll stop working. But rather then recharging it, if you heat it back up it'll go back to working normally.
Of course, fuel cells do work at virtually any temperature that won't damage the device it's powering, so, as you stated, this wouldn't be an issue.
Virg
Two bads:
1.) They're talking methanol, the liquid, not methane, the gas.
2.) Pure methane is odorless.
Bad doggie. No biscuit.
Virg
AFAIK, no good way of producing the carbon nanotubes (buckytubes) for these cells has yet been discovered. They zap a lot of carbon to convert just a few percent to nanotubes, then try to sort the few right-sized tubes out of the mess. So if it can be produced at all, it's going to be very expensive.
Actually, we don't need the Middle East at all. There are the Alberta Oil Sands which are insanely huge, and which just had an advance in extraction technology to become a lot more competitive.
But we add in things like Fuel cells, etc. And then we can let them all go fight each other with rocks and sticks and stuff.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
This brings up an interesting, albeit slightly offtopic, point:
Why don't airlines have power sockets??? If I could plug in, then I wouldn't need a big battery, nor this fuel cell.
We can only dream of life with a wireless powergrid... that would be kewl!
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I know I'd rather carry around an AC adapter than a container of methanol.
Try carrying a container of alcohol through an airport, especially these days since Sept. 11. If the idea ever catches on and these batteries become as common as cigarette lighters, maybe things will change. But then again, smoking is not allowed on airplanes, I wonder if they've been confiscating lighters these days?
The fact is current fuel cell technology only works with hydrogen. This methanol cell works by first converting the methanol to hydrogen. The final product would probably be lighter, simpler and cheaper if it were fueled with straight h2.
The only drawback I can conceive is it's simpler to refuel with fluid than with pressurized h2.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
methane
You can read about the technicalities of the fuel cell system at The Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Letter web site.
Lithion Ion is not as efficient as the Ni-MH (Nickel Metal Hydride), in fact, Ni-MH lasts about 15% longer. I don't know why Ni-MH didn't catch on, it's in my Travelmate 4000m (486-75mhz). The cost doesn't seem to be a factor, because the battery can still be had new for $40, and I got mine for $20.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Perhaps this is because I'm not a physics person, but maybe someone could enlighten me.
I'm under the impression that when you run a fuel cell the output is H2O. Has anyone considered the numerous possible environmental risks involved with such a process? I mean, not polluting the air is quite nice, but we have a pretty clean balance of elements on Earth, and it does worry me a bit when I imagine a world where everyone is using a fuel cell for energy. After a while, wouldn't we end up with lots of excess water and a deficit of oxygen? Personally I'm a big fan of breathing and not having the oceans overflow. Opinions from someone who actually knows something?
"You want to carry this bottle of flammable liquid on board the plane?"
After six weeks of detention for questioning I ask, "Why not ethanol which the airline will sell me as vodka on board the plane to refuel it?"
to the ol' computer "Crash and Burn."
Does this mean that laptops could become potentially explosive? I'm thinking James Bond self destruct button in the back, just in case you need to destroy a room or something. That'd be an awesome feature - it sounds like something pioneered by Macintosh.
Closer to reality is the Ballard Power Systems NEXA power unit, which is a 1200 watt fuel cell intended for integration into OEM devices. 27 pounds, so it's not too portable. Runs on gaseous hydrogen. There will probably be a UPS-like emergency power product based on this.
...Does this mean future laptops will have a tailpipe? ;-)
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
Well, now you could really go blind by looking at too much pr0n...
A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. -- William Blake
Enby in Waltham