Slashdot Mirror
China Shuts Down 17,000 Internet Bars
Astin writes: "According to this article, Chinese authorities have shut down more than 17,000 Internet bars for failing to block Web sites considered subversive or pornographic. Out of the 94,000 Internet bars in China, 17,488 have been shut down and another 28,000 were ordered to install monitoring software soon. Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about 4.5 million rely on these bars. Foreign news organizations fall under the category of 'subversive'."
CNN and Porno are the same evil in china?
Looks like they are thinking before their time!
It sure sounds rotten, but it is their country. Additionally, there's something like 78% of the "internet bars" open for business.
Does Slashdot count as a "foreign news site"?
I can't imagine not being allowed to read Slashdot.
In an authoritarian Marxist country, any site ending in .com is going to be considered subversive....
grep -ri 'should work'
China sucks. I feel bad for the people that live there. How come they dont revolt? If the USA had that happen, we'd all start killing each other.
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
It's too bad that all of this is happening and places like SafeWeb are shutting down.
I do recall hearing, however, that recently China began to allow access to cnn.com. Does anyone remember this or know for sure?
What a shock, who'd have thought that China would have bad Human Rights Practices.
Well, there's government wastefulness at its finest... How many man-hours did it take to sweep 90000+ "bars"? And how are they planning on enforcing this? It would seem that if these are small one-room shops, that if the government were to shut one down, it would just pop up again elsewhere.
We might not like it, but China has their way of life.. and that's not going to change any time soon.
As far as the internet bars go, serves them right for not installing monitoring software. They violated the law - the got shut down. I'm sure as soon as they pay their fines and install the proper software they'll be back up and running. China is not like Russian in the days of Stalin. They're actually a very progressive society - for socialists that is...
Why is anyone really surprise by this move by the Chinese government? It's not like they're known for being a bunch of liberals after all - just ask some of Falun Gong for instance how they treat ideas that they don't like. No, the Chinese government may like to talk about their progressive nature and "liberalising" (heh) their country, but the truth is they're as big a bunch of Reds as the Soviets ever were.
How is though that the US is prepared to kiss ass in order to trade with them when we spent close to fifty years fighting the Red menace before? Modern USia has quite simply lost any semblance of morality and ideology other than the dollar and a kind of rabid Christianity. Whatever happened to fighting the good fight against communism because it threatened the freedoms we fought so hard to win?
Are our principles now to be sacrificed because we want cheap Chinese products? Can this country sink any lower?
How long until we see "17,800 Internet Cafes in the United States were shut down last week due to the newly passed Eagle Act, which requires blocking all pro-terrorist sites."
?
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
People are complaining about the loss of civil liberties and privacy in the US with the wake of the 9-11 attacks. But be thankful that we still have freedom of speech and press and that we aren't getting government filtered content stuck down our throats. I am suprised that though a lot of china is so technologically advanced, their society is not...
-
aphex
I Steal Music!
As I recall, it didn't work out so well.
Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!
but if you are going to run a business in China, you have to play by the rules.
I have no pity.
Don't like it, move to Hong Kong or Taiwan.
Maybe that's because most foreign news services are simply propaganda?
Yeah, and of the 1,867,465,234 spammers in the world, 86% probably depended on these Internet bars to relay mail, also.
From the article:
"Some youths will submerge themselves in Internet bars for long periods, playing unhealthy games and adversely affecting their development as normal students."
If porn and video games do not make for normal students, I dare say that there has never been a normal male child, ever. Sex and games occupied most of my time while I was a student.
And I'm plenty normal. Just ask my psychiatrist.
Talisman
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Doesn't mean I should accept what they're doing to us because it's not as bad as what China's doing to their people. Wrong is wrong, no matter the extent thereof.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Funny how this happens JUST after Chinas entrance into the WTO, and just after the Chinese government told the world that now that they were in the WTO, they werent going to disregard human rights so much. Funny how the internet bars that service the foreign press in China, get closed down shortly after the largest contigent of foreign press leave China. The investigation is going on since April, but nobody wants to rock the boat until China is in the WTO, and all the press and other foreigners have left. The news will be just swallowed up, the majority of people wont even hear about it, and China gets to say HA HA and you beleived we were going to change you morons.
This might not seem like a big deal to people, but the people they arrest of online dissent get lumped in as Falun Gong members and can be executed. This isnt that they cant view porn. They cant see whats going on in the world. Is CNN Subversive? It is when the chinese government lies to its citizens every day.
GOD THE WORLD IS SO CORRUPT it makes me hate it. And everyone tomorow is just going to say business as usual and carry on the same way. When it happens in America, you remember that you all watched it happen, and the opinions you took on China and Saudi Arabias actions.
Yes, we do.
A remark like that clearly shows me that you are a terrorist. By the powers given to the US government under the almighty 'Patriot' Act, I would like to see you arrested, given a swift trial in secrecy, and executed.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Now that the U.S. is "at war" i wouldn't be surprised to see more censorship popping up left and right. Now admittedly, we do have a long way to go before it gets that bad, but i doubt many americans could be bothered to kill (and conversely to die) for their freedom of speech and freedom of asociation, hell many can't even be bothered vote for those freedoms, some can't even be bothered to vote at all.
During World War II we locked people up for their ethnic background, and during the cold war we persecuted people based for allegedly belonging to subversive political organizations that supported things such as a living wage and racial equality.
What i'm saying is that we shouldn't be so smug, this sort of thing isn't as far fetched as one might think.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
The most telling point in the article:
The government wants to encourage the Internet's growth as a commercial medium. But Beijing fears its other use as a forum for political dissent.
Now let's revisit the second sentence:
But Washington fears its other use as a forum for terrorist activity.
So, Beijing mandates NetNanny, and Washington mandates Carnivore.
Yep, sure am glad I live in a society completely unlike China.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
When people use the internet in cafes or bars they are the most time very drunk and write stupid things.
For example I know a dude who really posted on a very popular website that he got email from Afghanistan when there is no electricity or water there and the tabilan shot people for having computers, very stupid indeed.
So this decision might actually rise the quality of the internet automatically but I don't know if the stupid "I-got-email" bloke is from china sorry.
Some chinese might have trouble to get truthful information in this repressive system but intelligent people always know how to get this information because the definition of intelligent people is: people who know how to get truthful information.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
Is anyone surprised?
BTW, where can I get a high-resolution picture of that man standing in front of the tank in Tienanmen Square?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This should help those of us in the USA keep things in perspective when we are complaining about DMCA and Carnivore. Not that we shouldn't fight these things, but we should always remember it could be a lot worse -- and we should be thankful for the freedoms we still have, most of which are (still!) not being threatened.
And while we contribute to the Dmitry Sklyarov legal defense fund, we should remember that even though he's wrongfully charged with violating a wrong law, there are others in the "People's Republic" of China who are being tortured in unspeakable ways for just receiving e-mail from foreigners and reading the news on the web.
The Chinese government did this, to a lesser degree, in July, shutting down 2000 internet cafes. They'll continue to do this, as public anonymous entrance points to the internet are much harder to track and discipline; the user is usually long gone by the time you examine the logs.
There's a great quote from this article:
a Web site published opinions expressed by Communist Party leaders that excoriated the effects of "online heroin" on its masses, particularly on its youth
If the Internet is "online heroin", slashdot is "an online jet-powered crackpipe burning a two ton ball of primo Detriot crack, laced with LSD, PCP, Ecstasy, and some weird shit we've never seen before".
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
I can partially understand why Chinese gov't would want to do that. I get my news about the world from www.pravda.ru/ www.izvestia.ru in Russia (I live in the US, though). I've compared the stories on CNN to the Pravda. It is rather interesting to see how CNN feeds news to the US public (CNN correspondents were advised to constantly remind the viewers that "We are doing this to the country that harbors terrirists" when they would show a 1-2 second shot of hospital full of children wounded in the bomb attack). I guess what I am getting at is that US news machine is now in full gear, providing the "happy" details of the war to the people who are affected by it, and not giving the full detail, and if Chinise gov't would actually provide news coverage thats better than CNN, then Chinese would be better off.
Imagine that sort of banning of certain books, films or even thoughts happening in the USA? Never!
If the Chinese government takes away Internet access for millions of users, who will fill my e-mail inbox with unreadable spam that uses character sets not installed on my computer? My, this would be a tragedy...
That is a very naive comment.
The last time the people of China "[grew] some balls" was at Tiananmen square. That sure worked out well for them. I think some people forget that not all of us live in a somewhat "free" society.
I think it's very ignorant to think that the people of China deserve a government that abuses their human rights. I think that it is even more ignorant to think that the people of China do not have any "balls" because they do not try to stand up for themselves more often.
When you stand up for your rights in China, you are eliminated, plain and simple.
It's one thing to say that if you were in their situation you'd stand up for your own rights; it's another to actually do it when you are there.
- crackdowns on religion
- harsh treatment of political dissent
- falun gong practitioners put in detention, sentenced to "reeducation-through-labor" camp, incarcerated in mental institutions or killed
- extrajudicial killings
- torture
- forced confessions
- arbitrary arrest and detention
- mistreatment of prisoners
- lengthy incommunicatdo detention
- denial of due process
- a judicial system that denies defendants basic legal safeguards
- restrictions on freedom of speech and the press
- restrictions on freedom assembyly and freedom of association
- restrictions on freedom of movement
- violence against women, including forced abortion and sterlization
- trafficking in women and children
- massive abuses in Tibey and Xinjiang
- a lack of worker rights
- forced labor in prison facilities
- child labor
The list goes on, and details are provided. Check out what goes on in the country that makes your shoes for such a good price.Actually, I can't say that it would be illegal in a "bar", but in a cybercafe environment, by law in MA at least, you're required to have internet filtering which blocks nudity and other "offensive" content. In a restricted, over 21 environment, perhaps this isn't such an issue, but in a mall or a place with any sort of store window, police complaints and actual orders to shut your business down can be handed out with very little discrimination. I know, I net-admined one for a year.
My friend and I recieved, on one occasion, a visit from the local police department, concerning that children had acceess to our machines and that our machines could be set to display objectionable content. The woman who had filed the complaint did not actually see objectionable content or had an experience where her child did, she merely voiced the possibility that it could happen.
Police seem to take this sort of stuff seriously. I'm not sure why it's any surprise that a government particularly against free speech would have a slightly more aggrevated reaction.
I think they've got the manpower.
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
Just pick up this week's copy of U.S. News and World Report and you'll find an article in there about how the Internet should be creating global utopia through the free exchange of information. The author even specifically states that China doesn't fear the 'net because they screen things with "The Great Firewall of China". Well, we now see how well THAT'S worked.
I personally think global utopia is a pipe dream, no matter what the methods proposed to get there. People will always disagree on something, and extremists from those arguments will seek to have their ideas implemented by force.
What does the Internet represent to China? Free ideas that cannot be controlled by a communist central government. It must be noted that many Islamic countries practice similar "bans" in order to keep their people in the dark and allow corrupt regimes to keep on corrupting.
Those of you who supported the "Europe Bans Hate Speech" initiative last week should take a long look here and see just where your "ideas" would take you. Trying to control any one idea or thought is just as bad as trying to control any of them. Sure, you may think it's a good idea now, but what happens when they come for YOU?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
27 million people in China are Internet users?
That's less than 5% of the population... Is that correct? Sounds like a higher percentage of people are logging on in Afghanistan with their Commodore 64s.
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
The Chinese Communist Party is only "Communist" nominally... recently President Jiang Zemin infuriated some of the hardliners by allowing "capitalists" to join the party membership. If you look at his record, he's been known to be an opportunist. In fact, his entire record reflects this (read Tiannanmen Square Papers for more details).
The reason that the U.S. has begun to embrace China is precisely because they are no longer real communists, which translates to "exploitation" markets: think, corporations can make use of prison labor at a fraction of the cost of expensive U.S. workers.
All that's remaining of the original Maoism is an authoritarian government running a country by propaganda.
-k
yours,
kbs
In The Lexus and the Olive Tree, Thomas Friedman writes about the globalization of information. Globalization is a two-edged sword: it enables you to compete more effectively, which improves your economy and standard of living. But it also makes it harder to keep up walls and isolationist policies.
China realizes that they have to have Internet connectivity for its economy to grow and compete with the rest of the global market for products and services. In the long run, it's chasing after windmills with these restrictions. Once a critical mass of Internet users is reached, there will be less support for any administration that tries to enforce such rules.
It's just a matter of time.
Speak out against Chinese-style internet censorship by urging the 5 Media Companies to end their practice of censoring ads for Buy Nothing Day which adbusters.org has tried to purchase for the last several years. Each year, the Five turn down the paid ads from adbusters, citing that they do not run ads that advocate a cause. This is rubbish, considering that nearly all advertisement advocates the cause of mindless consumerism.
Buy Nothing Day is celebrated on the day after Thanksgiving, traditionally the busiest shopping day of the holiday season. The purpose of the campaign is to bring awareness to the problems of rampant consumerism that are magnified around the holidays. Why is it that we are encouraged to live beyond our means when consumer debt is at an all-time high, most people work more than 40 hours a week, and joblessness and homelessness are on the rise?
Ask yourself: Is capitalist censorship any better than communist censorship?
Really rotten. You say that 78% are open.
Of those, what percentage do you think are operating without blocking software?
By the way, when you said that "it is their country," I think you needed to be more specific. I think you meant to say "it is their regimes country."
Think about it.
And the reference to Marxism only shows how little you know about China.
Seriously, the most likely reason for this is that the bidnessmen running the cafes that were closed got too big for the level of government connections they have. Better-connected competitors may have happened to mention to officials that "gee, those guys let anything through." I would be surprised if you couldn't still get stuff from many of the 78,000 cafes still open.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Taken from http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/ne treg.htm :
Section Four -- No unit or individual may use the Internet to harm national security, disclose state secrets, harm the interests of the State, of society or of a group, the legal rights of citizens, or to take part in criminal activities.
Section Five -- No unit or individual may use the Internet to create, replicate, retrieve, or transmit the following kinds of information:
(1) Inciting to resist or breaking the Constitution or laws or the implementation of administrative regulations;
(2) Inciting to overthrow the government or the socialist system;
(3) Inciting division of the country, harming national unification;
(4) Inciting hatred or discrimination among nationalities or harming the unity of the nationalities;
(5) Making falsehoods or distorting the truth, spreading rumors, destroying the order of society;
(6) Promoting feudal superstitions, sexually suggestive material, gambling, violence, murder,
(7) Terrorism or inciting others to criminal activity; openly insulting other people or distorting the truth to slander people;
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
(9) Other activities against the Constitution, laws or administrative regulations.
Section Six No unit or individual may engage in the following activities which harm the security of computer information networks:
(1) No-one may use computer networks or network resources without getting proper prior approval
(2) No-one may without prior permission may change network functions or to add or delete information
(3) No-one may without prior permission add to, delete, or alter
materials stored, processed or being transmitted through the network.
(4) No-one may deliberately create or transmit viruses.
(5) Other activities which harm the network are also prohibited.
Section Seven The freedom and privacy of network users is protected by law. No unit or individual may, in violation of these regulations, use the Internet to violate the freedom and privacy of network users.
If your trying to build a community that has to support the physical needs of 3 billion people - from each according to ability, to each according to need - you might also find the blatant and mind-numbing propaganda by capitalists via advertisers subversive. I find corporate news incredibly biased and leading... they certainly serve their corporate masters.
USofAmerica is a Plutocracy - I dont have to explain how their media re-enforces certain 'subversive' ideals... christ, imagine if the Communist news media was pushing its agenda into America... wouldnt Americans, via McCarthy inspired mass-hysteria, not be a little put-off? Would it too not be considered "subversive".
Remeber people, right and wrong is very much a matter of perspective.
You have no chance to survive make some chai
--
I like to watch.
Personally though, I think that China should have called the internet "online opium."
It helps with the imagery a little more... you know.
The funniest time was when I went with my wife to her hometown, in southern China. In a city of 100,000 people (which they call a village in China), I was the only non-Chinese person who had been there in over 2 years. People turned and stared at me wherever I went (my in-laws were joking that they should have charged admission to see me). Yet just down the street was a perfectly functional Internet cafe.
These things happen slowly, but they do happen. Don't think for a second that Chinese dissedents can't figure out how to use encrypted proxies or whatever, to get information in or out, just as easily as we western geeks do to get around stifling workplace rules...
:-)
This story illustrates a wider problem internationally, that of regimes which quell any sort of human rights and freedoms. US & Allies are currently engaged in a war in persuit of one man, accused of murder. The side affect of this (which is widely publicised in the Canadian press) is that Afghan citizens (especially women) are regaining many fundamental freedoms. However, liberating oppressed people was clearly not the intent of the war.
If one man is worth starting a war over, then isn't it also worthwhile to fight for people's freedom? Saudi-Arabia, China, Pakistan, and Indonesia are amongst the nations that the west does business with, and yet the oppress billions of people. Why can't we justify war with these countries, or even extreme trade embargoes, if only to ensure their people's freedom? How many barrels of oil or cheap shirts is a woman/man's freedom worth??
I'm not making an anti-US statement here. Canada, Britain, the EU, and australia, amongst others, are exactly the same.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
A number of Slashdot readers need a basic lesson in ethnocentrism and cultural relativism. Pick up an intro to anthropology book and read the sections that discuss these concepts.
GeneralKael -- Slacker Extraordinaire
Maybe that will slow the flow of spam nailing my servers.
.cn I don't know what else to do. Anyone have any suggestions?
It seems like the Chinese can't (or don't want to) figure out how to secure a mail server.
Are there any Chinese readers here that can explain this? Anytime I have spam problems originating within the U.S. I have about a 99% chance of getting a cooperative ISP that fixes the problem within a few hours but because of the communication barrier I have no luck pursuing this overseas (generally China).
Short of blocking all traffic from
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
From this story:
"Out of the 94,000 Internet bars in China, 17,488 have been shut down and another 28,000 were ordered to install monitoring software soon. Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about 4.5 million rely on these bars."
From a previous Slashdot story:
"Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a longtime proponent of censorware, introduced the amendment...Essentially it says that any school or library which receives federal funds to build its network must install censorware. Since these funds are the chief way that poor and middle-income areas bring the internet into public institutions, effectively this means that only rich counties will have the option of an uncensored internet."
I'm so glad that I don't live in China, where the government attempts to censor public internet access.
Or are there strict restrictions on those behaviors too?
Most net people get their news from Jo-Blo's site. THAT IS WHERE THE BIAS COMES FROM.
Jo-Blo. Not the other things. Most of the bias that you see in journalism is cultural bias that occurs on all sides of the fence.
Hey, I know. We'll increase trade and improve relations with China by exporting Carnivore to the Chinese government.
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
Okay, so we're just supposed to look out for freedom on the home front, eh? "Screw the rest of the world, I'm looking out for ME!" It's called isolationist, and it's largely to blame for two World Wars last century. Go pick up a history book, you might learn something.
Was 9/11 horrific? Of course. But what should we do about it? Well, the Taliban is pretty much gone, so that's thing number one. But in the long run, America's security has a lot to do with the rest of the world. If we don't stand up for freedom everywhere, we risk being the only place on Earth where it's practiced (albeit imperfectly).
Now, I'm not going to say "get over it" because you've already been told that. I'm going to say "do something about it". You gripe and moan about people's priorities, but I don't hear any solutions coming from you, or even a point other than you don't like people getting on with their lives. It is possible to carry on a normal life and not forget about a horrific event. We did it for about 4 years during WWII, and we still haven't forgotten Pearl Harbor. Let people deal with things their own way, and stop trying to make people conform to your idea of mourning.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Given current event, it's my understanding there are some countries that completely ban the internet. Am I wrong?
They've got as many Internet bars as we have Starbucks!
I agree that it should concern every US citizen when the government plans to impinge on the rights of any US citizen, but my concerns can be allayed at times. Is a little more border control warranted? I think yes. Should student visa holders receive greater scrutiny than at present (currently zero)? Again, I'm okay with that. What China does is attempt to completely silence all contrary viewpoints, especially the free press. I'm much more concrened about that, than anything Ashcroft has dreamt up lately.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
I'm an American, and you know, I never fail to be fascinated/frustrated at how vigorously other Americans attack China. Who said that our system is the best? And who are you to criticize another country for providing for its people in the best way they deem possible? It's not like the leaders are in it for the fun of it -- good god, they have to serve 1.2 billion people! Let me see you manage a country that large, by giving people all the same freedoms we enjoy here. We have enough trouble already, with only 1/5 the population... If you think about it, it's like people here have been programmed to hate China just because it's one of the few remaining "Communist" countries around. Do we really need another enemy? Why create one when China doesn't want to be an enemy? Never mind that their increasingly capitalist structure has given far more people over there opportunities than can be said about some of our population here. When you criticize China, are you doing so because you've really thought about the issues, or because that's all the media has told you to do here? Sometimes the freedom of thought is more quashed here than in less-priviliged, knowledge-embracing countries...
when are those shitbirds at the cult of the dead cow going to release peekabooty? that will be goddamn hilarious when those clowns in china get flooded with news and porn...or is that redundant? anywho, maybe that will spark a revolt that is successful.
Nothing naive about it. People can stand up for themselves or not. Unfortunately, the Chinese culture is extremely authoritarian. I should have said "learn to question authority" instead of "grow some balls" as there are undoubtedly some very brave Chinese citizens.
If the majority of the people decided to revolt the Red Army would be powerless to stop them.
The government wants to encourage the Internet's growth as a commercial medium. But Beijing fears its other use as a forum for political dissent.
Encourage growth? So they shut them down.
Fear dissent? Shut it down.
Uhhh, am I the only one who does not get the logic in this?
Perhaps it is just me, but, if they "fear dissent" maybe, just maybe, they should look at why people would dissent?
I dunno.
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
Why create one when China doesn't want to be an enemy?
I don't suppose you've read any of their national press, particularly after their fighter jet rammed a recon plane in international airspace. China has been regarding the US as THE ENEMY for quite sometime.
Never mind that their increasingly capitalist structure has given far more people over there opportunities than can be said about some of our population here.
Compare that to Taiwan, which started from worse circumstances and is ahead of the PRC about 10 to 1.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
[wavy dream sequence effect]
Spam floods Chinese in-boxes: "A no-money-down real estate opportunity for YOU, comrade!" "Refinance your hut today!" and "OMG! ULL CUM! HOT PROLETARIAN AXXXION!"
American Internet porn companies begin to target this new market, making downloadable titles featuring the likeness of Chairman Mao Tse "Swollen" Tung.
most Internet bars here are nothing more than dimly lit one-room shops with a dozen personal computers.
And this differs from most computer rooms how?
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
If you're going to sites that are not in Chinese, use the Babelfish translater as an impromptu proxy.
Just tell it to translate the page you want to see from Chinese to English (or such), and it will ignore all the non-Chinese characters on the screen. So you'll get the website.
People have been using that to bypass filters at work for quite a while.
-k.
Generally the U.S. doesn't put a "prior restraint" on speech because it is prohibited by the Constitution, but there are some exceptions... take the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) or U.S. v. Progressive, Inc. (467 F.Supp. 990, 992; 1979). All are usually justified by some "threat to national security", or obscenity, or incitement to riot...
The danger, of course, is that our current administration likes to call nearly everything a threat to national security... and now that we have an executive order allowing for military tribunals, fuck checks and balances anyway!
I was going to moderate, but really feel the need to say something about free speech.
Free Speech != the ability to say anything you want. It is the ability to express yourself in a way that does not infringe on the rights of others.
'Nuff said.
Andrew Borntreger
Champion of cinematic disasters
Okay, China shuts down internet bars that don't filter content that the totaltarian government doesn't want their people to see, why is anyone surprised? Isn't this part of what makes them totaltarians?
No, I don't like it, but really, we can't stop them. Governments govern at the consent of the governed, so it's the chinese people who have the options, not us.
Derek Greene
All you DMCA and privacy whiners, take note. It could be worse.
So this means that Chinese geeks can't read Slashdot. God forbid we actually discuss stuff, find out about stuff, learn stuff, and expose stuff. That might bring the world to its knees!
-Whoopass
How would you feel if your country had constant surveillance flights right along the international boundaries (which you don't agree with, btw - you feel they're further out).
I think you'd be just a tad testy if the Taliban was flying recon off Seattle, or the Soviets had planes growling around off Miami, these barely visible specks in the sky reminding you day in and day out - they're watching you.
Both sides provoked that spyplane incident. Don't be fooled.
Anyone know the feasability of satellite internet access in china? --- Sounds like there should be a hell of a market for it over there....
no wires to cut, no way to filter it.
The price of liberty is endless vigalence. Sure, I'm awake and screaming at the top of my lungs.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Smash the state! Hot Asian teens!
Then again, "Asian teens" probably isn't so interesting over there.
Good god, not again.
Tianemmen was a joke, not a revolution. Imagine what the US would be like if everyone gave up and went home after the first 100 deaths in 1776. (Pause, as the British readers have a brief smile.) Or think who would control Europe if England and France had thought better of their agreement to assist Poland from Germany's invasion. China itself lost thousands of people even before then, when Japan invaded Manchuria.
But we are to care that a few Chinese students staged a protest, demanding their 'human rights' and quickly shut up when a few died. If they kept fighting, I would have sympathy and respect for them. But they quietly slinked away with their tail between their legs. Plenty of room for it since they had no more "balls".
And if you think it never happens in the US, look up Ruby Ridge. A FBI sniper shot a woman in the head because her husband didn't want the government to bother him. She was standing in a doorway, holding her baby in her arms, and he killed her because he had orders to shoot anything that moved. The sniper claims he wasn't aiming at her, but it is really hard to shoot someone in the head without aiming at it. It's not that easy when you _are_ aiming at it.
And lastly, the term "human rights" is a joke too. You only have the "rights" you earn. Read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" sometime. The actual novel, not the movie adaptation. Has a real good handling of that term, better than I can do.
I have no firsthand experience or memory of the Cultural Revolution, but I am confident that it had little popular support or basis. Indeed, you might do a little probing and discover that 'revolution' was in fact perpetrated by the government itself.
Saying that event equates to the people's choice of government is tantamount to saying that Native Americans chose the system that they now live under.
And I'm not sure that *I* would assume that the average Chinese wants to live under the current system. That seems like a big stretch...
So what do the good people of MA think of zippers?
Well, what do you expect from people who ran off to the wilderness of the new world for religious non conformance? You know, to re-enact the old testament at places like Salem, and so be God's new people?
And you don't see the similarity with the Talliban (translation: teachers)? Pilgrims/Talliban ran off to be with themselves and escape persecution by an evil empire (England/USSR). Against all expectations they find themselves in charge and wish to make the world after themselves. They are accused of intollerance and denying women their rights. No one but their neighbors mind untill they start blowing things up accross the Ocean (Spanish American wars, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, .../WTC). No, I'm not equating any real wars to the WTC attrocity, it's just a reference for comparison. US firbombing of German civilians durring WWII represents a real low in morrality, surpassed only by the crimes of her ally of the time, Stalin. This from the "city on a hill".
Posted by a genuine white anglo saxon US citizen. I'm proud of my country and want to stay that way. I'll happily jump up and down on hypocracy and dishonesty all day long. Flame away, bitches, and happy Thanksgiving.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
How many times in the past have governments tried to control what their citizens see, hear, and read?
It doesn't work. You just create a new industry of underground news and information. I'm sure given time this will come back to bite them on the butt. As some form of Human Rights violation or something else. But face it. When the gov't tries to control the media, it's because they're worried that you will figure out that your gov't sucks and demand change. The only thing this does is slow down the change, and in many times force a more violent change when it comes. (i.e. coup, revolution)
It's time that gov'ts start reading the writing on the wall instead of trying to cover it with paint.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
In Seattle, non-lethal weapons were used. Even in many third-world countries, protests are broken up with rubber bullets, not live ammunition. And if you complain that the students were radical, why not also point out that the gov't was hardline and refused to budge?
Now, I'm generally very defensive about China when Slashdotters rant about how evil it is without looking at the reality and practicality of the situation there, as it is making a lot of positive progress these days, but this is a case where the gov't could have done any number of things to avoid killing students, and it chose not to. Why? Not because it "had no choice", but because it too heavily weighs "stability of our nation" over individual lives. For that matter, even the "patience" may have been a bad thing, as a more controlled suppression of the protests earlier could have turned out a lot better.
"Modern USia has quite simply lost any semblance of morality and ideology other than the dollar and a kind of rabid Christianity." Considering the extreme steps the chinese government takes to prevent the growth of christianity in it's own country I don't see how this point relates to a softened american stance towards China as opposed to the Soviet Union.
I'd guess the sheer population advantage china has over both America and the old Soviet Union is as much a factor as anything else.
An issue that may not have been discussed two days ago during the discussion of Safeweb's demise/discontinuation is the effect on web-users in countries like China. Hey, it's nice for Americans esconsed in their offices to be able to access p0rn though the employer's firewall, I guess -- that's what the writers of quite a few of the comments seemed to think Safeweb was all about -- but the loss of Triangleboy must definitely be hurting web-users in countries like China and Saudi Arabia.
Right! We need to fight with morality and scruples in mind, just like we did against communism throughout the Cold War! We need to "fight the good fight" like we did in Vietnam! We need to support the causes of the noble and the just like we did with the Afghan FREEDOM FIGHTERS!
I so totally agree that these days, we suffer from total lack of cause and purpose.. we just advocate free market capitalism. After all, what has capitalism ever gotten anyone?! . We need to target our nuclear missiles at the remaining Communist countries lest their Evil Ways take over the free and just Western world!!
The morality and ideology of the Cold War are values we should forever strive to regain! We must once again fight the good fight! (And if you don't agree, then you'll never work in Hollywood again!)
>sometimes you have to let other countries
>solve their own problems. It's called
>soveriegnty.
Yes, well the problem begins when those other countries begin to export their problems to other countries.
Socialism, as defined by it's creator, is supposed to be spread through the violent overthrow of other governments.
See, for example, china's conquest of Tibet, and their continual sabre-ratteling towards Taiwan. I beleive socialist forces were also on the verge of defeat in the Korean war, until china sent its owh troops in to prop up north korea.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
You're right, there are an infinite number of economic systems waiting to be explored. The one we're currently in is called "capitalism", and it's the most successful in history. Is it the pinnacle? Of course not, but it's the best we've come up with so far. Unless you've got a better idea that hasn't been tried in the last, oh, say, 3000 years, you really shouldn't be knocking it so much.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
What does that have to do with anything?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Offer not valid in Cuba.
--
E_NOSIG
What do public libraries have to do with children?
Sure, public libraries are a place where there may be children present, but there may be children present in a courthouse, walking down the street, or in the corner convenience store. (Where, I'll note, the only thing between the kids and serious hard-core porn is the clear plastic wrapper on some of the magazines)
The idea that libraries are somehow fundamentally aimed at children, and specifically are more aimed at children than at adults is pernicious. It leads to a culture in which the adults become alliterate (that is, being able to read but not reading) and in which librarians are imagined to be glorified babysitters with books.
Well, the Soviets did have planes growling around Miami for many years. There were also regular Soviet intelligence flights along the Pacific coast. I'll give you that the Taliban never spied on Seattle. In fact, on more than one occasion Soviet recon craft made forced (as in by weather damage or engine trouble) landings at US military airbases. I witnessed one. We gassed them up, made basic repairs and allowed them to leave as soon as they asked. We never attempted to board their planes.
The blame for the spylane incident belongs on the Chinese military.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
Nobody in the Communist party wanted the students slapped around, tortured and their leaders sent to jail for a few decades.... yeah right... it was all an accident.. it was the army's fault.. yeah.. thats it.. it's not our fault.. those damn radicals left us no choice.... we didn't mean it.. honest!
As for other countries tolerating a paralysis of important country infrastructures, you only need look as far as Europe. Anybody remember the farmer and trucker protests in France recently?
Trying to claim the Chinese government was an accidental party to the human rights atrocities of Tianamen Square is scandalous and a revision of history.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Uh, better look again. It's right there between the 13th and the 15th amendments.
>Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about
>4.5 million rely on these bars.
The rest are too busy sending us spam.
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
So, is it legal to say that the organs that the State extracts from executed prisoners are the best organs money can buy?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
If anarchy is so good, how come in the past 10,000 years of history it has never lasted nor succeeded? I'll tell you why: because a fractious society of individuals cannot stand against a more organized, united force of similar numbers. It is true, and cannot be denied.
Anarchy isn't the answer any more than Despotism is. Extreme forms of government DO NOT WORK, and it is childish to think they will just because you want it to be so. True longevity is derived from balance. Anarchy means no laws: if I can find a way to kill you, it's perfectly alright to do so, and vice versa. If I want to rape your wife and get away with it, I face no penalty if you cannot bring force to bear on me. Ditto for stealing your stuff. Despotism means no freedom: you live at the sufferance of the government, and you can be made to disappear without consequence if the government decides they don't like you anymore.
To date, the best possible form of government devised by man is the Representative Democracy. It is not perfect, and perfection is not possible anymore than it is possible to calculate infinity, but it has preserved more freedom longer than any other form of government in history. In the end, it will prevail regardless of national affiliate, because it is the only thing that balances personal freedoms with responsiblity for actions.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I always find it interesting how subjectively the Slashdot community reads the news. I've lived in China for most of the last three years doing manufacturing management, which has taken me to many a middle of nowhere china and big city alike. And it constantly amazes me the kinds of myths that float around regarding Internet use in China.
First, Internet cafés are ubiquitous, and yes most of them are dimly lit holes with 12 computers sharing one ISDN line, or sometimes a 56k modem. Generally there are no bathrooms, the dimly lit room is filled with cigarette smoke and the whole place is grimy as the bathroom of your local pub. I.e. typical China, outside Beijing/ Shanghai/ Guangzhou. There are of course nice internet cafés in the big cities, like the one in shanghai that proudly displayed the chair President Clinton once sat it to surf the web, but those places are the exception.
Now just like any industry, there's licensing involved and in a Chinese Internet Café that means registering with the Chinese Bureau of Post and Telecommunications. Part of the Café license is the understanding that you'll filter all unsuitable content, which mostly consists of pornography (highly illegal in any form), actual dissident sites (yes they do exist, our government happily cracks down on the same sort of thing here) and yes BIG name foreign media. By big name I mean NY times, CNN, BBC, Washington Post etc. Anything that's local, or my mother wouldn't think of as a news source- i.e. Slashdot, Guerrilla News Network or the Economist, are not filtered at all.
Of course being a big place with a lot of people, regulation of this sort of thing isn't ubiquitous, which means that it's not that difficult to find Cafés that don't filter CNN and what not. They're just officially banned. And of course all bets are off when one uses any sort of proxy. Now the unofficial level of restriction raises and lowers depending on current circumstances. For example when we "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy a couple of years ago, the restriction was quite high. Chinese people were pissed at foreigners and the restriction level went up. On the flip side, after the Sept. 11th attack, they had an unofficial moratorium on the restriction of foreign news, which got extended all the way through the APEC conference.
When we hear that the Chinese government cracked down on internet Café's allowing subversive content through, what it generally means is the Cafés were letting in pornography. Most Chinese couldn't give a damn about foreign news, and of the few that do, the number that have the ability to read English is quite small. On the other hand the number of people who would be looking at pornography is quite large.
On average I would even venture to say that the aggregate level of information freedom of PR China is equal to or even greater than that of the United States when one takes into the account the development of intellectual property law. The Chinese didn't even have a concept of property when they opened up 20 years ago, so they sure as heck don't have a concept of IP, something that we're still struggling with, today. Hence buying pirated anything- software, music, movies- is many times easier than buying the officially licensed thing.
None of this is to say that the Chinese aren't being oppressed with regards to their online freedoms; it's just that the oppressors aren't nearly as strict as our own news tells us.
There is similar concern here in Taiwan as on the Mainland about Internet cafes, which tend to be havens for teenage boys -- a fair number of them truants -- hanging out for hours surfing the net and playing network wargames with their friends.
The problem isn't so much surfing and games per se, but the fact that Internet cafes are often connected to other video game parlors, which feature gambling. In addition, many Internet cafes are actually Internet bars serving alcohol and cigarettes. Toss in truancy and Internet porn, and it adds up to a real concern amongst Taiwanese parents that Internet cafes are not a proper environment for teens. Recently, in fact, in an effort to address these concerns, the city of Taipei passed an ordinance restricting the hours during which teens are permitted to frequent cafes, mandating -- IIRC -- filters on all terminals, and forbidding any Internet cafes within a certain distance (200 meters?) of a school.
Speaking as someone who's lineage traces back to China (my parents are actually Taiwanese), I can say with confidence that the problem is the *government* not the people. My grandparents often speak of a willingness to consider reunification but only if the government of China were better. Thousands of Hong Kong natives left in the few years before it was returned to China; why? Just look at the leadership.
Actually, I believe that even if the U.S. didn't sometimes see China as a potential enemy, the Chinese government would continue to do the same. The hardliners in the government *need* a large power in order to maintain their monopoly on power.
Not to mention that the anti-China bias that's prevalent on Taiwan is rather well founded...
-k
yours,
kbs
Not me, but I will firmly claim that it is much better than China.
When you criticize China, are you doing so because you've really thought about the issues, or because that's all the media has told you to do here?
I criticize the Chinese government because they are fundamentally hostile to individual freedom, believe that the citizens exist to serve them, and have no reservations about abusing their people to maintain their power. Yes, I know you can list things the US government has done that are not good, but the magnitude of the abuses is not comparable. Even the fact that you can criticize the US in this forum is a testament to the freedom that you enjoy here that you would not in China.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
So they could be said to be disruptive for a morally correct reason.
You seem to be greatly afraid of "disruptions". No, don't tell me -- cultural revolution, right? Well here's a thought. The cultural revolution could not have occured on the scale it did if it wasnt for the (in)famous groupthink with which the Chinese are still struggling. By avoiding criticism, suppressing discussion, punishing "incorrect" reasoning, the Chinese strong men are supporting this tendency. They are promoting tribalism and so endangering their society.
Frequently, when speaking with ethnic Chinese, I hear such phrases as "We chinese do/say X..", instead of "I think". In a recent NYtimes report on AIDS, the author of a popular internet diary was interviewed about his recommendations for govt. AIDS policy. He felt the need to preface his remarks with "Well, I am only an individual, so I'm not qualified to judge.." My question is, who the hell _does_ judge policy, if not human beings? It is this fear of being the nail which sticks out, this sense of doing what your neighbor does, which has turned china into a giant gasoline pool, waiting for a spark. In an open society, individuals may go crazy, but the culture as a whole remains sound. Instead, the authorities whom you are defending have chosen to live in a closed society. They always fear the smallest flame.
In the US, we did have violent demonstrations in Seattle, they were publicized, debated, and no revolution, no mass bloodshed. In china it's forbidden to even mention Tiananmen square, secret police prevent people from assembling there on anniversary dates, professors fear for their jobs if they bring it up. The justification is fear of "disruptions", but few dare to ask why such a small spark can set fire to a whole nation.
Instead of ritually defending the CCP, or "we chinese" as a nation, those who truly care about the health of society should attempt to promote freedom of speech, of criticism, of protest. Strive towards open government and an open culture. This will provide channels to dredge the lake, and chinese human beings (as opposed to "The Chinese") will finally be able to speak for themselves without fear of commiting "incorrect" criticism.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
>>> but when things worked I was only paying about $20 Chinese per hour (a couple of bucks USD) for decent speed Internet access.
:)
:), so things are probably cheaper there...But , I checked Internet bars in Beijing, and it's more expensive, but only to about 5RMB/hour(about 60 cents per hour). Seems to me you were ripped off big time because you are a foreigner. I know in some places they charge 10 times to a foreigner. You must be one of unlucky guys :))
OK, I 've just visited my hometown 3 months ago. Anyways, the internet cafe right next to my home charges 1 Chinese RMB for non-peak time, and 2 RMB for peak time.(Mind you that 2 RMB= 25 US Cents i.e. a quarter). And it's broadband access too! Of course, it seems they have only one account for broadband access for the whole 30 PCs in the cafe......they just use a router to form a LAN .
Well,Guranteed it's just a "small town" since it has only 500,000 people living there
I think it shows how much penetration internet already has in China. And mostly kids from age 8+ to young students in their 20s are busy surfing there, chatting on their version of ICQs, and playing games like Starcraft and Age of Empires. I don't really think there is much interest in foreign news sites, but there is a lot of interest in Porn sites:) But still games and Instant messenger chatting are the major draw for Internet Cafes. So the ban on foreign new sites, in my opinion , is much ado about nothing. Well, it seems that Chinese Govt. surely do fear the power of the net, don't they. They are so scared.
And I think Internet only reachs about 27M people there mainly because 1) 80% Chinese live in "real" villages, where Color TV is rather a luxury, and Computers are close to non-exist; So with that in mind, the 27M actually makes more than 10% of population in City; 2) As I state, only kids and young students frequent Internet Cafes; Older people doesn't have much interest in it. Their only use for internet are occasionaly emails, most likely for writting to a child who is overseas(like my parents)
Agreed. I'm not saying we should sit in front of the TV and do nothing, and it will magically change. What I'm saying is that the actions people are right now taking, in aggregate, amount to a trend that even the Chinese government will find impossible to fight.
Aren't we, the good ol' US of A, involved in censoring internet access in Public [tapayer-funded] Libraries?
Oh, and let's also abolish the death penalty and military tribunals before we go second-guess the Chinese.
Besides, it'll cut down on chinese hackers.
"Piter, too, is dead."
I'm not familiar with too many in the Metro NYC area, where I'd expect them to be more noticeable...
When are Chinese going to shut down their spammers! Crush them with tanks, or subject them to the death of a thousand cats!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
What about a great fire-wall of Bush? A system to stop G.W.Bush from having access to any government/millitary secrets including nuclear launch codes. Also to stop him accessing politically sensitive sites like EasyDictatorships.com that might give him ideas. Or even 'The Limits to Freedom in Six Easy Steps' Guide going around usenet. I for one would feel much safer knowing that a little child such as Bush didn't have access to things that he could use to hurt himself, or even worse, others.
..... MASS REAL-LIFE DEATHMATCH!!!!!! (last one to the gun shop gets fragged first!!!) now that _would_ be fun.
My solution to world problems:
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Are our principles now to be sacrificed because we want cheap Chinese products?
Actually, our principles are to be sacrificed because we want to sell stuff to the Chinese... There is an untapped market of >1 billion people who don't have enough Nike, Coke, or McDonalds. It's enough to make a marketdroid salivate like one of Pavlov's dogs...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
Well first of all I'm a mainland Chinese so my point is skewed. but how about this: since I suppose by 'stopping aggression' you mean getting out of Tibet how about all non-native-Indians getting out of North America? They are alive and well and involved, yes, you are involved.
Foreign news organizations fall under the category of 'subversive'.
Western news outlets are the leading vector for the democracy virus! China is showing an excellent grasp of reality in blocking those sites.
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
Off with Lewinsky's head, if she were in China. She injured the reputation of Clinton's organ alright.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Hey, it's just too many people that think the whole world should be just like their vision of Utopia. Thankfully each area more or less takes care of its own problems in its own way.
And as for the methods being used by the protesters, all I ever heard was that they were have a peaceful demonstration and the military killed them. Of course it's hard to get the actual news nowadays, with the media twisting everything to their own viewpoint. But as I said before, if they don't have the guts to fight and die, I don't care about their cause.
And don't forget, Britain viewed the early actions of the American Revolution as criminal acts. I don't really hold that against the so-called revolutionaries in China. But where are they?
It's marketing crap. "Lose weight fast!", "Buy printer ink!", "Make a million dollars sitting on your butt being a worthless bum!"
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
It's almost impossible.
Is there any way to do a reverse trace against an 800 number?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
So once there is a generation of Chinese colonists born in Tibet, you lose your argument.
Why don't people follow their own thoughts through for more than have a step? Come on, this reply took all of one second to pop into my brain. 900ms of that time was trying to see if you actually typed that thought.
By the way, how many treaties did China sign with Tibet not to invade? How many did the US government sign with the native tribes?
"move into the mountains of Colorado without running water or electricity and carry a shotgun... you'll get PLENTY of privacy. "
Until the FBI wants to arrest you for being alone, and then shoots your spouse in the head.
If you have no idea what I am talking about, do a search for Ruby Ridge, and see what our precious government does to people who don't like it.
The ideal believed in by the vast majority of Communists is the Soviet/Chinese type.
p tion. You dont have to obliterate the other systems... unless you are convinced they may take your silver spoon away. American Plutocracy is an extension of British Feudal society - Communism is a furtherance of the democratic principle to include the economy. It has to do with controlling the economy for the benefit of all.
No, most western commmunists will acknowledge that China/USSR had far to much oppression and not enough democratic-citizen involvment. Fascism != Communism. The "bad" things in China (cencorship/oppression/lack-of-justice) has nothing to do with Communism.
ot only that, but it would require severe oppression in order to enforce this uniform conformity of thinking.
Why is it necessary to have "conformity of thinking"? Maoists agree that it is necessary to have constant criticism and opposition to the government - it was an ideal that would facilitate 'continuous improvment' in making a better government. Who the fuck advocates 'Conformity of thinking"? Are you sure this isnt an invention of ignorant mccarthyism??
If it can't work in a small scale, it won't work anywhere. Can't you see the deception in the argument you make that "communism would be the best system only of other systems were obliterated"?
No, when OTHER countries are organized to allow non-democratic control, when OTHER countries are capable of using all their will to destroy something that challenges their supreme-position, a great deal of illogical and unhealthy decisions are made to further that goal. Evidence the absolute corruption of "american democracy", monopolistic economy, perversion of law and destruction of meaningfull democracy... lets not even mention the environment or mindless-propaganda(marketing)-driven-over-consum
Which creators meant well?
These ones.
How on earth can you defend what China is doing to Tibet??
Sure, you can try to change the subject, and say that other nations also committed genocide. Duh. In the US, we are not proud of what we have done to Indians. We teach our schoolchildren of the massacres committed by our armies and publish the bitter denouncements of Sitting Bull and Mark Twain. We remember the heroes who spoke out against the atrocities and did the best they could to fight against them.
I cannot even begin to understand your ethical system. Do you truly believe that the Han are right to invade Tibet, surpress the Tibetan religion, kill monks, and treat tibetans like shit?
Or are you just defending your "race" because you are afraid of criticism?
My God, this is slashdot and you can post anonymously. To defend the ongoing rape of Tibet here shows that you are a coward and an embarassment to humanity.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
As someone who has lived in Shanghai for over 6 years, and has run an Internet Cafe here, I'd like to say you're all talking complete sh*t.
The reason why the cafes were closed is because 99% of the people inside are not on the internet, but playing halflife/ c&c/ starcraft for 10 - 15 hours a day.
Fact: Kids are skipping school to play games.
Fact: Parents want the government to do something.
The government licences internet cafes - mainly to stop truancy. People really don't give a shit about [insert your favorite english language news site here]. Its in a foreign language.
Not everyone speaks or reads english. Stop and think about that for a while.
There are plenty of Chinese language sites with news, from HK, Taiwan, and the Mainland that run exactly the same stories, in the local language. Its the US'ians that don't get it, not the Chinese.
Lawrence.
http://www.shanghaiguide.com
I'm totally against most things the US government considers "acceptable foreign policy", but I'm sorry - just because China "wants to be friends" doesn't mean we should overlook the fact that the current political system (which isn't even *close* to being "Communist") SUCKS! The leaders of _both_ the United States and the People's Republic of China are morally bankrupt, power hungry sleazebags who are perfectly happy to play at sword-waving politics one minute, and have trade talks the next. In both cases, the People are getting screwed, and in both cases the government claims to be acting for the People when in fact they are only working for themselves and the rest of a small, wealthy elite. So no, "China" shouldn't be our (ie. the citizens of the "democratic" West) enemy, but the current Chinese government sure ought to be.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Errr care to explain how Singapore is a freedom hating regime? :\
You don't think there are millions of Chinese just dying to move to Hong Kong? There are! The problem is the government won't let them, and Taiwan doesn't want them either.
I've been working in Beijing for approaching a year, so here are my two cents. The foreign media sites which are blocked (in my experience) tend to be only the most prominent (and/or incriminating), ie: CNN, BBC, Amnesty International, Free Tibet, etc.. re: news (as with 9-11), anyone can locate the same information with minimum effort via different sites, provided they're interested and possess basic English reading skills (sizeable percentage in urban areas since learning our language is mandatory in high school) for a search engine.
It should also be noted that it's the local, average-income population who are unable to access these sites. Any 'diplomatic' or higher end housing development tends to have full access to the internet and television, since obviously it's tenants will be well off (ie: their salary is usd versus the yuan), and we can assume, quite comfortable with life in China.
What happens to an ISP in the US if it refuses to go along with Carnivore? Wouldn't it get shut down at some point?
Is it really so different?
Maybe the Chinese are using their monitoring software to find people non-violently opposed to the government, whereas the US is using the monitoring software to find people who are violently opposed to the government.
In any case it's not as different as people are making it sound.
Wouldn't it be nice to hear "China forces ISP's to close 28,800 open SMTP ports."?
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
china's censorship is not so strict as all you imagine,at home via a adsl connection of China telecom,i also can access to many porn sites and msn,abcnews,cnn,msnbc etc(only cant access cnn,i dont know why),even some politics forums.of c's slashdot is my favarite :)
i think internet bar is a public place and of c's it will be managed more strictly.
the local news of my city also declaim that students will not be allowed play counter strike in internet bar,and if you plays at home,no one care about you
this is all the more reason the US gov should be *promoting* encryption. unlikely that the chinese government will be able to filter by keyword when the content is properly encrypted.
Aiaiai! Less support among the users for the administration? What?! I China democratic or something? There is very little popular support for the administration in China - they have ways of dealing with people who voice their lack of support, so a majority not liking the admin will not change it.
I'm skeptical of letting freedom take over China through giving them money, as is the general US opinion. USSR failed out of poverty, and not some crazy idea of an adminstration falling because of a lack of support from the masses.
Janimal
So does the Japanese, Korean, etc. Why aren't you critising them as well?
Uh..maybe because this topic is about censorship in China?
Also, you seem to have missed the point of my post. I advocated for the acceptance of criticism. You respond with
1. obscenities
2. pointing out the faults of the japanese/koreans
3. blaming me for not being critical of the japanese/koreans
4. repeat 2-3 for the US,
5. lots of shouting that you are pissed off
Obviously your blood is boiling at the slightest suggestion of criticism of China. I hope that you're not an official with some power, but even if you are not -- you are the problem. It's people like that which were waving their little red books in the sixities, ready to shout down anyone who was an enemy of the state. If you don't realize that, then you don't understand the first thing about McCarthyism. You're infected, buddy.
Now, about the personal attacks. I've posted almost 80 comments. All but the last few have been critical of the US and it's allies. Hell, I give money every month to z magazine which is a portal containing loads of articles which protest and criticize US govt. actions. That's my main job. Since I live in the US, my primary responsibility is to try to stir opposition to US abuses. Read my other posts if you don't believe me. I haven't "conveniently" neglected anything. The difference between me and you, is that when someone suggests that my govt is doing something wrong, I look for the facts, find out what the problem is (to the best of my abilities) and then thank them for letting me know. I put the stuff on the web, tell my friends, and organize to try to draw attention to the problem. I volunteer my time to maintain websites which protest US foreign policy. 90% of my interests have nothing to do with China or Japan.
On the other hand, when you hear criticism of China you 1. get defensive
2. blame the foreign news media
3. blame me for bringing it up.
3. don't investigate
4. draw attention to what other countries are doing.
You are like those people who shout "America love it or leave it." You don't want to live in an open society. You claim that my criticisms are somehow helping hard-liners, but your actions (1-4) above tell me that you are as much of a hard-liner as anyone else. You ask me how do I know that you are not working to promote freedom of speech and protest? Well, just look at your own post. If this is how you react when someone protests your govt.'s policy, then you are certainly not respecting their rights do so. Or perhaps only ethnic chinese are allowed to do that? If that's what you think, then you're pretty far down on the evolutionary ladder. And no, please don't generalize my comments to mean "all chinese" when I'm referring to you -- that sort of groupthink is why I posted in the first place.
You cannot take criticism. You are the problem.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
Dude, you are paranoid, unable to take criticism of the "motherland," and have a very rosy view of the "development" -- as you call it --- which is being forced on the Tibetans.
There's plenty of info out there which might explain to you why the Tibetans are not grateful for this "yellow man's burden" which you are so nobly taking upon yourself. Too bad you are too prejudiced to even read it.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
We don't want to become China. If we just sit around and let all that shit happen, it will be worse.
Remember, in Nazi Germany the censorship started out small.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009