Slashdot Mirror
China Ahead in Stem-Cell Research
Andrew writes: "New Scientist is reporting (for free) on the WSJ's China clones human embryos story: "Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning - the creation of dozens of cloned embryos advanced enough to harvest embryonic stem cells."" The lengthy Wall Street Journal story is also on MSNBC.
But where are they going to put all these extra people?
The Blaster Master Fighting for Truth, Justice, and Evil Pie since 1979
it's about time that china found a good way to rapidly increase its population.
and for that matter to, in one stroke, increase their citizen's longevity.
go get it
When a Communist nation allows scientists greater freedom than a Democracy? Just saying...
China also ahead in cloning copy right CDs
"Yew must be dem clones I been a-hearing 'bout. Y'all look the same ta me."
</Southern Senator>
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
"Stem cells are master cells that have the ability to differentiate into other cell types, including those in the brain, heart, bones, muscles and skin."
Stem cells have the potential to help millions of people all around the world and finally we are seeing some results? Go China! As long as the clones produced are entitled the same rights as every other human being I am for it.
(Some sperms mixed with an egg on a tray is not life.)
rxvt, suse, vi, solaris, debian, java, c, feel the love. #unix@IRCnet, #gimp & #gnome@GIMPnet
The nice part about evil, soulless facist governments is that they play by no rules, with no rules, with no consideration of the negative potential for science I agree that stem cells hold tremendous potential for good, but without pondering the Brave New World/Gattaca/(insert cliche book here) consequences, the future might turn out an ugly place. It is dangerous to wave flags and say we should follow in their footsteps. One cannot use the dark side of the force/The One Ring/etc. without becoming Darth Vader/Sauron/CowboyNeal.
The poor boy is now solidly stuck between his Oh So Rightous right wing religious supporters and the need to keep the United States up with the rest of the world in genetic research. It looks like science suffers at the hands of the Morality police.
Hasn't this happened before?... (Galileo, Darwin, ...)
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Do they really need to make duplicates of eachother?
'mmmmmmmmm.... forbidden donut'
The entire CHINESE WOMEN'S VOLLEYBALL TEAM all share ONE personality -- and have since BIRTH!!
:)
How interesting.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Ok... so if you want to use someone else's organs, you hop on a plane to India... if you want to have pig organs grown for you, you hop on a plane to the UK... if you want to have stem cells cloned and grown into organs for you, you hop on a plane to China...
Is it just me, or does it seem that medical treatment is moving in the direction of taking a very large number of plane flights?
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Anyone remember the Vonnegut book (Cat's Cradle?) where the Chinese figured out how to shrink people...
I was just reading this book about that very subject.
I find it also interesting how the one main country with whom the United States has mixed in civil rights with trade agreements is the country that may end up further along in this line of research. Of course, one could say that Hitler had learned a lot through research as well. How far can we allow our morality to stretch to further the advancement of the human race?
...seeing as a good portion of the Government Funded stem-cell research in the United States has been halted.
I know of quite a few programs that are occurring without the funding of the government due to the restrictions that have been placed on that kind of funding, for instance some of the research that goes on here.
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
While the American Congress debares the legality cloning the Chineese forge boldly onward.
Need a new liver? Need a new kidney? How about a heart? Go to China cause you won't be able to get them in America.
...and you better bring cash cause I don't think they're going to take credit cards.
"They're just now announcing this? We've known they were doing this a LONG time ago! They all look alike!"
Yah, it's not very funny. Post intelligently.
Ya, I got it too... you beat me to the post. Most spooky indeed.
_sig_ is away
Briefly (I'm at work) this is exactly why the U.S. shouldn't ban this research. It's bloody inevitable. Our government is caving to a few screaming fundamentalists over one of the most important medical advances in history.
Who's going to pursue this more ethically? The Chinese, who've been alleged to use prisons as organ factories, or us?
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I hate to break this to some of you, but China presently has a negative birthrate, they are dealing with their problems, although, they are doing it in a manner which is unacceptable to many religions/people. Where are all these "booming population" remarks coming from? Admitedly, there are a lot of people there right now, but if they are correcting the problem, should we criticize them?
A communist country making such advances is somewhat of a scary thing in my mind. I find it hard to believe that they are doing this research for mere scientific and humanitarian reasons.
The possiblity that they are solely in this for making of an ultimate race is what is fueling their motivation for this. Imagine them creating a race of cloned soldiers.
Once a Geek.....Always a Geek.
It's a golden opportunity for American scientists. Instead of wrestling with complicated moral dilemmas, we can now sit back and watch and see if God smites the Chinese. If He does, we can just say, "See? We told ya cloning was evil." If there is no smiting, then we can assume it's safe to jump on the bandwagon. Thanks, Communist China!
China also injects the skulls of unlicensed newborns as they come out of the womb to kill them, in order to control population.
I don't look to China for my ethics.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
The entire CHINESE WOMEN'S VOLLEYBALL TEAM all share ONE personality -- and have since BIRTH!!
Seems a little too relevant...
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
It seems like they are doing this just to spite the US. Good for them!! The US policy on this type of reasearch has been way to tight. Politicians make these silly laws because of there ignorance in the area. I hope a chineese company makes a way to cure people of back injuries .. then you will see the US change it's laws very quickly ..
Try this one
On one hand, they employ 'neighborhood-watch' for couples who might want a second child. those couples are then 'socially' pressured into getting an abortion. but on the other hand the gummint wants to clone humans... I guess they're going to require someone to have a license to produce humans... (much like a manufacturing license). But then the country is so good at piracy -- you know where that's going to end up. 'pirated copies' -- literally -- will be found on every chinease street corner. what's new?
Cue the Imperial March, I think the United States is about to pay the price for its lack of vision.
*This page intentionally left pointless*
It would seem that some countries have put aside their ancient fairytale religious superstitions and are moving science forward. Not that there shouldn't be regulations on this type of science (an FDA-like organization), but the outright bans we have proves that separation of church and state does not exist. We're going to end up way behind in biological and medical sciences if we continue this line of thinking.
"Xiangzhong "Jerry" Yang, a Chinese-born cloning scientist now at the University of Connecticut at Storrs, says he has been aware of the advances being made in China for a long time.
"These are credible people," he says. "I've encouraged them to publish in peer-reviewed journals so that they receive credit and the world knows about their accomplishments." "
Just the fact that Scientists need to be encouraged to say what they are up to is kind of distressing. I can't help wondering why a chinese scientist would ever want to remain quiet about his work. Oh wait...
..which just shows that the human brain is ill-adapted for thinking and was probably designed for cooling the blood-T P
That just can't go anywhere good.
Sucks to lose, huh?
If China gets to far ahead they will swarm us with...
Just think... billions of Chinese!!! ah!
I believe that, if you dig into some of the KGB stuff from the early 80's, the russians were (as a military experiment) working on human body modification through genomic experimentation and gene mutation/cloning. Alot of the documents are obviously still hidden away, but there was a site I visited last year that was a clearing house for recently declassified documents from the Moscow bureau.
While nothing specifically mentioned the cloning, analyists who had been looking for hints on space weapons, stealth bomber/fighters, and missing prisoners came to the conclusion that some of the rumors about human cloning in remote siberian research stations were not without backing evidence. This was due to a small trickle of the worst dissidents, those who had good health records and whom were fit and free from known genetic diseas in their families, were disappearing.
These stations still remain closed to the world and heavily guarded, and there are only rumors. Rumors like men being bred from birth with extra ribs and denser/thicker muscles and bones. Men who had enhanced senses of smell or night time eyesight.
A few of the people who went "missing" from soviet prisons for serious crimes were noted as re-appearing years later in soviet Marine Infantry brigades (spetznat) with clouded service records, but it is difficult to imagine Russia in the 80's having the technical knowhow or where with all to be able to "mutate" or modify already grown adults. I toss that one out though as an x-files kind of rumor that sure could scare the kids up around Mermansk.
Like I said, alot of rumors... but it makes you think. You gotta wonder what the CIA paid for too... there is alot of black budget money that doesn't get tracked beyond the agency front door... they managed to produce the Blackbird that way, and U2/TR1 as well as who knows what. I wonder if the gov't has dabbled in genetic mutation or embryonic modification/cloning...
Oh well, in direct comment to the article and posters here, let me go on the record that I think this is not a bad thing. China is not looking to increase their population (which they have difficulty controlling or feeding as is now)... they are doing research to A) Best the US and Europe at their own game, and B) come up with medical breakthrough that meet condition A and benefit their own society as well... maybe even boost their economy with something original that only they can produce, that being working genetic medicines they for once control under patent.
The people in power want to ban abortion outright, but they can't because of a Supreme Court decision. So, they ban everything having to do with embryos on the grounds that, if they allow people to do it, women will get abortions to provide the material. Thus, if they can't ban abortions, they can at least give the impression of wanting to ban abortions in principle.
I didn't say it made sense. It's just how these people think. It isn't hypocrisy; it's opportunism.
That looks like exactly what the People's Republic needs, more republican people!
It also helps that one can clone the important Party officials and make even truer the tradicional Chinese fascination for long term planning (not the 3-month Wall Street long term standard, mind you, the Chinese long term is measured in centuries). In the future, one will plan and have a clone to implement the plan.
I hope they remember to learn how to clone the rice, the pork and the fish, to feed all the surplus people they will be making.
China
pronoblem
slashdot got hacked!
DUH!
I love living in Redneck town. A friend of mine who was looking over my shoulder at this article, commented "Dang... their clonein' um now? Just what the world needs... More Chinese."
Business News and Resources: www.usasource.net
*finally* we'll be able to fix china's drastic underpopulation problem.
Which theories are right... psychology or sociology.
The age-old "nature vs nurture" debate. If the Chinese continue with this, we'll truly be able to see how much the external environment affects ones personality, etc.
Seeing as we've never had a "control set" before, a lot of things in those fields are pretty much assumed or inferred.
The other side of this whole thing, though, is of course the moral side. When will we go "too far" and start generating clones for blood, organs, etc, and leaving the rest for waste? Can anyone else picture the human fields in "The Matrix"? Humans do make great power plants....lets just hope we don't exploit ourselves to extinction!
-kwishot
The next man on the moon will be chinese too. They have a plan for manned mission in the near future.
Our science fiction always assumes that space colonization and the "future" will be dominated by western ideals, but as things are trending now, the future looks brighter for asia.
Cobra's Supreme commander is a clone of Hitler, Napoleon, Caesar, and some other leaders all rolled up in to one!
My other sig is extremely clever...
China will be able to produce super-humans with their cloning. They can have two of everybody so they always have a fresh competitor. Its not fair I tell you.
many people have predicted (and it's becoming apparent) that Asia will lead the way in such biotechnology areas. People in Asia are not quite as brainwashed or blinded by Christian religious dogma, and probably don't mind conducting research that can improve the quality of human life.
While the politicians here debate, and try to cater to every consituency, by holding research back, the rest of the world will be able to run with the ball...
The distribution rights to :
The Attack of the JonKatzs
It would seem like the most populated country in the world--where its actually against the law to have more than one (or is it two?) child(ren), would be the LAST place that someone would try to clone people. Granted, there are many more applications for stemcell research beyond mere cloning of people, but still... something about that just seems strange.
No, it's only when research might legitimize abortion that it's ImmoralTM.
It would be funny, if it weren't so very important. Personally I want the doubled lifespan that fully realized stem-cell research may give us. Get your foot off the brake there, Mr. God-Fearin' Man!
from the article...
Unlike most adult cells, whose functions are preprogrammed, embryonic stem cells can adapt themselves to a variety of specialist roles, filling in as heart or nerve cells.
so, let's assume i'm born, from an embryonic cell (cloned), and my heart goes bad. the doctor forgets to stick the embryo in the magic soultion that turns the "turn me into a heart organ" switch, and puts the cell directly into me.
does the embryo turn into a blasocyst and a developing baby/tumor? or would this "know" what to do? i know there's a specific solution that must be prepared to turn on all the genes to clone an animal, but would the body naturally tell this embryo what to do?
moox. for a new generation.
So in the future when you look at the packaging your replacement organs come in it will say...
"Made in China"
More e-mail addresses to ban for spam..
with mandatory abortion over one child in many cases regardless of whether or not the parents wanted that child, China certainly has *plenty* of 'material' to work with.
No human rights triumph here-this is China simply finding use for a large supply of what they already deemed 'unwanted' and murdered.
I suppose it was inevitable that while the majority of the world wrangles over the ethics of this technology, it would be developed anyway by a government with a total lack of them. While I am not opposed to cloning technologies on philosophical grounds, as a practical matter I trust the chinese government about as far as I can throw them.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Cloned chinks. That's an oxymoron. They are like insects in a hive. Bzzz bzzzz.
I don't mind that they're cloning, they all look the same to me.
This would be a step backwards in court cases that rely on DNA evidence.
With people being truly identical in every which way (not including haircuts and stuff like that) including DNA, it would be nearly impossible to prove innocence or guilt of one of the clones in a court case that currently relies on such technologies.
Think about it...
"Your client was on the security camera and it was his blood on the floor"
"No, your honor, it was his identical clone with the same DNA - my client was nowhere near the place of the incident"
-kwishot
Column A
This is yet another reason why China scares me. Anyone upset over the American jingoism since 9/11 and during the Olympics should be blown away by the scope of Chinese nationalism, to say nothing of their singularly ass backwards system of medicine, politics, human rights, spam filtering, etc..
Column B
Kudos for this country for pushing the scientific frontiers of medical benefits to mankind. This forward-thinking is yet another sign of the benefits of not being caught up in corrupt fundamenalist political wackos. But since China's rich cultural heritage spanks the USA in longevity by about, oh, a factor of ten, it shouldn't be surprising where they're headed - it's only a matter of time before this technically advanced economic powerhouse dominates the globe.
Is it me or did Fraxis hit the nail right on the head when they put "Chairman Chang" as the leader of the "Human Hive" in Alpha Centauri.
..... Don't answer that.
Is it sick that I can still pretty much boil down much of the socio-political landscape in terms of a computer game?
clone
clone
clown
Hilary Rosen
Jack Valenti
We have a little degradation problem here ...
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
Of course they are ahead of us. We are a democracy and any substantial protest brings us to a screeching halt. (Think: nuclear power)
And as a totalitarian state, not particularly worried about ethics, foreign opinion, or foetuses, they have a very large source of research material.
But I expected better from many of you. They aren't doing this to increase their population. They aren't even doing this for stem cell research per se. They have plenty of stem cells from their very aggressive population control program. No, what they want is money. They want to clone embryos to sell to us squeamish westerners. They have to develop the technique of cloning them, so they can clone the stem cell lines we hypocritically approve of, then sell them back to us. What a wacky world we live in!
So in a nation where parents can only have 1 child, they are cloning humans...
Yeah, that makes sense.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." --Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)
when you aren't bogged down by morals..
Indie rock lives! b-side!
Are clones prohibited from the Olympic games?
As if the USA is a democracy? First we arent a democracy we are a republic.
Second communism allows far greater freedom than capitalism IF the government is not corrupt.
Since 99 percent of all governments are corrupt including ours, a corrupt communist government is one the people cannot control. Our government is controlled by the top 10% of rich Capitalists not us, so how are we in any diffrent of a situation than the Chinese?
SSSCA, The Patriot Act, DMCA, These laws arent democractic at all, we didnt vote to have these laws in place, if we were allowed to vote the majority would vote against these laws, hey but some rich guys in suits and some representatives who are actually representing the rich guys in suits, they make the law.
A corrupt government is a corrupt government, Communism isnt bad on paper, its bad only because humans make it bad, and our government is bad only because we allow it to be.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Because the USA is filled with Facism as well, perhaps we arent as bad as Germany, Russia, China, but we arent as good as some other places in Europe, or NZ either.
As far as freedom goes, Communism does have its benifits, one of them is science benifits greatly from it because scientists have complete freedom.
The only problem China faces is the fact that they have too many people and not enough jobs for them all, their government is out of order, right now we are entering the information age, resources and man power will matter less, information will matter more, and in this situation, the bigger population shall have more producers of information.
China and Communism benifits from this greatly, however because of their stupidity they are restricting information through censorship, if they ever allow their people to actually access the information then we'd be left in the dust.
Then again we have problems like that here (Copyright is a form of Censorship)
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Maybe, at the time when a constitutional decision about abortion was needed, the right-wing religious and morality zealots, the same funny nutty guys who think their religion should be used to brainwash every children disguised as Science, the same terrorists who bomb legal abortion clinics, the same lunatics that blame September 11 on "lesbians and queers", maybe at that time these people couldn't organize in time to prevent the Courts to give this kind of freedom to American women.
Maybe when a decision about cloning/harvesting was needed, those same maniacs that feel they have the right to impose their misguided views upon everybody had enough power to obtain such a decision from a simpathetic right wing Presidency.
It takes hundreds of years for a Government to form, Many Capitalists governments fell apart, the USA was horrible back when it was founded, there was no real freedom, witches being stoned for not being proper religion, minories were enslaved for not being the proper color, etc etc
If you look at all of American history and not the last 100 years, you'll see that the USA was at one time as bad if not worse than China, as bad as Russia at one point, It takes hundreds of years and generations for a government to mature.People learn from their mistakes.
China may actually be a successful communist nation, if they manage to do it right.
Theres nothing wrong with socialism either, theres many european countries which are socialist countries which are doing better than the USA such as NZ.I admit theres alot less people in places like NZ, but theres less people in the USA than in China.
Capitalism is not the answer to everything, its one possible solution out of many other possible solutions.
Capitalism can work, Communism can work, Socialism can work, each one of them have their flaws and limitations.
Capitalism currently in the USA is decreasing our freedom and giving freedom to big business.
Communism in China is decreasing the freedom of the Chinese, these problems arent problems with the style of government, but the people actually in office who make the laws.
Corruption exsists in capitalism and in communism and currently we arent controlling our own government, chinese arent controlling their government, so both Capitalism and Communism have problems and no we do not have a Democracy and never really had one to begin with.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This article is interesting not for any radicle scientific breakthrough (the work has been neither peer reviewed or verified) but for the comment it makes on Chinas current ethical regulations and human rights.
Many people on this forum seem to think that this research is "bad" because America may somehow be left behind in the great cloning race. However private researchers have never been inhibited in America and it is ridiculous to believe that american science with all of its resources will be radically threatened by what is still a developing nation. American science (and buisness) is more likely to be threatened by European science which is allowing both public and private interests to go ahead with human therapeutic cloning.
What is more worrying is that the slight advantage China may have is due to their lack of ethical regulation and disregard of human rights. While different cultures have different ethical standards the fact that these women were not fully consulted on the fate of their eggs and that human animal hybrids have been created is a real concern.
We cannot hold back other countries technical progress and we should not abandon our own ethical regulations in order to become more competitive. However we should encourage other countries to hold high standards for ethical research and human rights.
There is nothing that bans the cultivation of stem cells for medical research in the United States.
The only policy that President Bush has established concerning stem cells said that an existing set of stem cell strains (aprox. 60) would recieve federal funding. That's not the same as outlawing or limiting future stem cell research.
Other stem cell strains may be created, but not at federal expense. Medical Companies would need to use private financing to start future strains.
Why do they need to clone organs when they have a thriving trade in organs harvested from prisoners?
We have legalized abortion yet we respect human life all of the sudden? Come on. Be serious.
If Abortion is legal, Stem Cell research should also be legal. Its the same thing, the only diffrence is you are actually making use of the embryols for a purpose which can actually save lives.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
People here assume that Chinese people should have the same ethnic as western people. Not so. Shouldn't you be mature enough to know that the place you live is not the center of the world, and not all civilization come from Greece, and most part of the world don't believe in God? So why is cloning unethical while watching pron is fine?
And the race is on...
And this is how far the United States gets in the race for having issues with morality and letting their christian religion bully them into thinking the way they do about everything.
If the US expects to get ahead, they really gotta pull their heads out of their asses and elect someone decent for president.
[)(]subliminal labs[)(]
Doesn't China kind of have a little over-population problem as it is?
;-)
Like to the tune of 1.2 BILLION people!
Moderators need an additional choice: "Karma Whore" for people who cut-and-paste articles as their comments!
Looks like it's not too far away before GI's find themselves outclassed and outacted (but fortunately not outsmarted or outsmoked ) by genetically modified soldiers.
http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
Its sad to think that I will probally be the last generation in my family to have known the USA as a technological superpower.
.. im registered as a Republician, and fairly conservative about stuff in general. I'm ironically a futurist. I think we should be more green, use cleaner technology, and improve our life/life style. But keeping the cost to future generations in account.
.. its TODAY that counts.
.. we are going to isolate ourselves from new technology .. new ideas. [fun experiment, ask your average religious right how much the yen is at .. or the euro .. and see if they know.]
.. and you will understand what i mean.] When a society isolates itself socially, it stagnates. They may have been a super-power economy once, but the bubble burst - and with that loss of economy, the last 40 years of growing pains are showing.
.. some to make a point, some to save time.
With increasing restrictions on scientific study, assanine patent law, and scientific monopolies - it seems everyone is out for either the buck or the moral highground. [or a political office.]
Hobbes would be proud, since he was the first to preach that to inturrupt the 'process' of god was a sin. Apparantly cloning (as well as violent video games and open source software) falls into this catagory.
Am i using a sweeping generality , you betchya`. Is it far from the truth ? not really as far as I would like it to be.
While i must say
Apparantly the way the govt slid the last 8 years, was to pander to the highest voting majority, go back to our 16th centruy religious roots, and avoid change.
change apparantly is evil. and will destroy our 'family' values. Whatever values they have 'saved' in 15 years when people are mutating horribly due to all the petrolium toxins in the air/water/soil won't matter
As the US becomes more and more self centered and less a 'world' player
Anyone see what japan did ? Japanese as a culture are rather xenophobic. [Just watch a 6 foot tall black man walk down a street in Yokohama
Incest between mother and son is common due to bonds formed from 'exam' stress. Rape and molestation is practicaly a way of life for young girls. And 12 year old prostitutes in the Tokyo/yokahama area are not only common, but ALMOST accepted. Theft and crime, once unthinkable (outside organized gangs) are becoming common place.
Again, im being general here
I just wonder, how much of 'protecting our values' Japan did 10-15 years ago. Are we repeating the same social mistakes? By refusing to let our scientists to explore? When our future is being decided by people who are holding onto beliefs that were founded 2000 years ago, when the world (to them) comprised of about 1/3 of europe - is that system equiped to handle the way the world is now ?
would you choose to program your new graphics application in C++ ? or COBOL ?
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Somatic gene therapy uses a virus to deliver modified
genes into a recipients cells. This could be used to
create more efficient muscles or denser bones in adults,
but extra ribs would have to be achieved surgically.
Not that I actually believe (much) of the above Urban Legend.
Neuromancer predicted this pretty well: Gibson stated that the cutting edge of biotech will happen in places that don't have all the beurocratic hinderances of our society... where ethics (or lack thereof) allow for risky experimentation.
Please keep in mind that the right-wing government that we have now is very firmly entrenched themselves in radically fundamentalist thinking. George Sr. regularly donated funds to the likes of Pat Robertson, Falwell, etc., supporting folks like Rev. Donald Wildman, helped out groups like the Eagle Forum (who belived that mathematics was dangerous to children because they teach a child that there are no absolutes, and once a child learns there are no absolutes, sooner or later, they turn to crime and drugs!).
The American gov't is NOT succumbing to the radical beliefs of a few citizens. it is forwarding its OWN radically fundamental belief system. A lot of the nutjobs running the country right now SINCERELY BELIEVE that we are in the end times. A few of the more outspoken members of the aforementioned groups who have ties in gov't have stated that it is their calling on Earth to HELP BRING ABOUT THE END TIMES TO SPEEDILY BRING JESUS BACK TO EARTH.
We are not dealing with a few radical citizens. We are dealing with a highly organized, highly motivated, and insanely rich regime who honestly belive that they are the chosen few.
The president of the republic of the united states of america decided on his own that stem cell research should be limited.
This man was / is a christian and has a very biased point of view, but he desided for the you, you didnt vote.
In fact you didnt even vote him into office, gore won the popular vote, the Democracy ruled in favor of Gore, the Republic however ruled in favor of Bush.
We have a republic, the representatives in congress decide the laws not you, while you do vote to see who represents you, you do not control the government, the laws, or what these people do, these people are controlled by the Enrons of America.
Listen, unless you are CEO of a billion dollar company, you have no control, the top 10% control the USA and really hows that much diffrent than a communist government where 10 percent controls everyone there, or any other type of government.
A true Democracy which we have never really had, would mean each one of us would have the right to vote on every law, the DMCA would have had to get voted in by us and honestly theres no way that could have happened. Because we are a republic, all that has to be done to control our country is bribe the right people.
China or any country could easily control our government, its simple, Sonys of the world, Toshibas and Matsushitas who happen to influence certain political figures could easily hyjack our government if there were enough big powerful Asian Companies.
you see our government is like an open market,its controlled by Capitalism, anyone who has alot of $$ also has alot of control, and that is the flaw of Capitalism.
$$ = Power, not votes, not respect by peers, not intellignece, not wisdom,.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
From the Slashdot Summary:
Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning.Surely, I can't be the only person who gets nervous when the word "Chinese" appears in the same sentence as the phrase, "great leap forward."
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
They are better at child killing than we are--their mandatory 1 child law!
Abortion is legal, which means sperms with eggs are legally not alive even if they are actually alive.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I know this is extremely bad taste, but ..
Now you're really going to have to worry about what you've got in your dim sims.
How fucking slashdot typical. Silly leftists
Great, all we need is for a communist country to learn to clone humans. We're done for.
If my ether wasn't full, I'd tip toe accross and get me some wire for, you know.
That's not even the issue here. It's demographics, it's computers, it's my whole existance in one tinfoil ball.
...is that the one country that beats us in anything technical won't be in Africa.
Don't deny it. You know it's true.
If by "NZ" you mean New Zealand (and I'm not aware of any other country sharing this abbreviation), then as a kiwi I must take umbrage: my home country is neither a European country - far from it - nor a socialist one. Furthermore it's arguable whether New Zealand or any other developed nation is "doing better" than the USA (in NZ's case I could argue either way) unless you focus your attention on particular statistics or attributes. P
Would mean we'd all be consultants, and start our own businesses, small ones of course.. Big business is actually bad for the economy because it decreases competition, innovation and people get paid less
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
China doesn't care how many people it kills to meet a goal and has plenty of history to show it.
Dissidents being killed (Tinamen massacre to stop democracy).
People killed for their religous beliefs (Tibet, Falun Gong, Christians...).
Babies killed/women forced sterilizations and abortions (to force birth control).
Prisoners killed to provide organs for transplants.
And now they don't care how many babies they kill in support this research.
I'll take living in the US with all its problems, thank you very much.
NZ is not capitalist either, you can go to college for free, hell you even get allowances from the government.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
NZ is not capitalist either, you can go to college for free, hell you even get allowances from the government.
Free education from the state does NOT a socialist nation make. Socialism is about where the means of production is, in the hands of rich indivuals, or the nation as a whole.
Property is theft.
I rarely bother to react to reactionary statements, but what with the distemper attendant upon a bout of the flu, bitchslapping an idiot has a perverse appeal.
Column A is vacuous and needn't be commented upon further.
Column B is idiotic. China's 'rich cultural heritage' is rife with xenophobic internecine warfare. The present regime is but the latest set of warlords. I've worked with and for Chinese families of substantial wealth, they were urbane, informed and loath to live in China. The Chinese mythos has long held the 'middle kingdom' will 'soon' rule the earth. It's quite funny to hear a chinese person self-deprecatingly state the inevitable rise to world dominance of the Chinese people. It's like they really don't want to rule the earth but destiny *is* destiny. China can barely feed it's people. The Three Gorges Dam is a grandiose scheme to implement a hydroelectric panacea. China historically came 'online', if you will, by development of a series of canal works, but the Three Gorges Dam is thought to be fundamentally flawed and might well silt up in plus/minus thirty years. Long stretches of China's rivers are dead. Environmentally China is a sludge pressure cooker overheating. China had damn well better scramble to advance every and any frontier of learning because in all likelihood when the shit (night soil) hits the fan over the next decade or two were all going to be splattered and forced to help clean up the mess.
cheersheuristic algorithm seeks stochastic relationship
You are just uninformed fuck.
You have never seen what real socialism can do to peoples lives.
Don't make me laugh.
This is insanity... We need to research this kind of medical science. This science will lead to some of the greatest medical miracles we've ever created, and we Amercians aren't going to have any part in reaping the rewards of it. Communist China is going to be able to grow organs and we won't be able to because we have some religous zealots as politicians who are holding back major progress in medical science because they think that a collection of cells which hasn't even formed a rudimentary brain yet is a human life. Next thing you know they're going to make mastrubation illegal... all those poor deaad viable sperm!
America has been making stupid ass mistakes for years. Instead of making more energy efficient cars, we make bigger gas guzzlers. Then who do we need to go to for technology when we need cars which are more fuel efficient? Japan.
Intel is like the only technology company we have which can compete with what Japan puts out. And I'll bet they're not going to be around forever.
Japan embrade "fuzzy logic" as our scientists laughed at it, and now they've made all kinds of advances in AI that have enabled them to make walking robots, washing machines that change the wash cycle based on how dirty the clothes are and what kind of dirt is on them, and even robotic pets that have sophisticated behavior and actually learn to walk themselves.
Well now here comes China. We here in the west have had pretty competitive medical science before now, but China is going to make leaps and bounds and they're going to become the next Japan with the advancs they make in medical science.
Our governmnet is sure to have the same sort of sactions they have on Cuba... They'll try to make it illegal to buy generated organs from China, but you know as well as I do that that won't stop someone who needs a heart transplat. Hell it won't stop me. If I need a heart transplant then communist china here I come. Sure, I'd rather not support communism, but if our leaders are so short sighted that I have to choose death or communism, guess which one I'll choose when the time comes.
China really doesn't have a good track record on "great leaps forward". megastories.com
You were wondering why abortion would be legal but stem-cell research and emybro cloning wouldn't be?
Here's why
Abortion is the elimination of a human embryo which was accidently created, or was never meant to be created
Embyro and stem cell research requires creating human embryos which will all be elimated, but were explicitly created for this purpose
Big difference here.
Scientists who do stem cell research create fertilized human embyros (at which point some people consider life to have started), wait until they divide a few times, then extract the stem cell, which kill the embryos. No matter what, these embryos will be destroyed.
That is the big difference between abortion and stem cell/embryo research
Have you thought about what you're looking at today?
I thought it was about 'the dictatorship of the proletariat' and other such things.
Or is that still just part of the 'transition toward socialism' or whatnot?
----------
Face it, people, an independent non-Communist historian has now had access to the secret archives in the Kremlin, and he's written a biography of Stalin. All the crimes of the Communists are being written up. You can NOT any longer claim the lies the ComIntern spread.
In any case, we kill animals, right? And very few people are saying we should change that. Aren't we also animals? Especially if we're capitalists. Capitalism is the animal ideal, true competition and freedom from regulation (whether from state or monopolies). Therefore, capitalists should be all for killing humans, if it promotes competition and progress.
Of course, if you're a Christian, you have no right to call yourself a capilist as well. This is due to the fact that Christ preached communism. If you disagree, go read the New Testament more carefully.
It's not a moral issue, it's a definition issue. At what point does a person exist? When it's still a separate sperm and egg? When it's one of possibly many fertilized eggs that begin to grow? If this is the case, then masturbation would be murder a million times over, and the fetuses themselves would be guilty of murder when they deprive other fertilized eggs from developing even to fetus-hood.
Why not just answer that question once and for all, and be done with it?
Morality is the word given to behaviors that are logically flawed due to lack of fully understanding what you're really even wanting to behave like. It's one of those subjective things that people keep around solely to use to sling mud at each other.
~D
Since we're dealing with such reputable sources, here's another book that might be of interest.
I assume you mean Japan.
The problem with the Japanese/Asian model is that the very discipline and ability to centrally marshall resources in a specific direction that makes them so powerful *when they're catching up* (ie they have a visible target) seems to fall apart when they reach technological parity. At that stage a whole lot of other skills are needed, notably a sense of individuality and ability to stick out from the crowd, which go right against this model. The transition that is needed then is not so much economic as *social*.
So Japan, after a miraculous come-back from World War 2 and breakneck growth until c. 1989, has wasted the last decade working out where to go now that they've achieved parity to the West.
The old idea that Japan would just zoom off into the distance is dead; with a population less than half that of the USA or the EU the economy will never be large enough to challenge either.
China is another matter, by sheer weight of numbers. Its population is c. 3 times that of the USA or EU, and it is going through a typical authoritarian state-capitalist Asian economic boom, like Japan in the '50's or South Korea in the '60's. *ALL CHINA HAS TO DO IS REACH 1/3 OF THE GDP/CAPITA OF THE USA OR EU AND IT HAS AN ECONOMY JUST AS POWERFUL*. If, as I'd expect, the Asian model works to take them up to GDP/capita similar to the US or EU within the next few decades, their economy will be *three times larger*! It doesn't matter if they stall then; if all they do is maintain parity they'll still be the biggest economy in the world unless a miracle happens in India or Latin America forms a trade block and gets its act together.
Don't forget China
(a) for most of the last 2000 years has been the most advanced civilisation on the planet
(b) following from that they have their own sense of "manifest destiny" which rivals that of the US; they want to get back to being the Middle Kingdom again
(c) they've learnt some very hard lessons from being ripped apart by the Western powers and Japan in the 19th Century not to get too navel-gazing in the future
(d) the population mightn't like their current rulers, but if they believe the alternative is the terminal chaos that devastated China from the mid-19th Century to the mid-'70's they'll stay in line as long as the money keeps rolling.
(e) Chinese society has always taken a *very* much longer view of time than the West [note Zhao En-Lai's famous comment when asked about the impact of the French Revolution; he said that it was too early to tell!!!]
(f) unlike Japan, China does not have to live down a militarist past and hence can be more confident and independent in its foreign policy
This was going to be the century of Japan. It will instead be the century of China. Shanghai will take over from New York as the world's de facto capital. The next footsteps on the moon will be those of Chinese.
America; make the most of your last couple of decades of world dominance.
Amen to that!
Whenever we relinquish a technology because we feel we're ethically "above that sort of thing", we run the risk that the technology will be picked up by people with WAY less moral scruples. Relinquishment pushes technology into the hands of the unethical, the very thing we'd hope to avoid by relinquishing in the first place.
There's then this tricky problem: how do we keep a strong technical lead in an ethically problematical area of technology? Historically we've done it with black ops. Maybe that's what would work here. Then again, there have recently been advances that may make Bush's unfortunate decision moot: it is now possible to extract a stem cell from an adult human that is fully capable of differentiating into any cell type.
So now, maybe we can have our cake and eat it too. If the Chinese make huge gains using fetal stem cells, but we can do all the same stuff with stem cells from adults, then their putative technological lead becomes a tempest in a teapot.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
"Harvesting"
Yeah, just like a fucking corn field. Not only grotesque, but disgusting.
I've been saying for over 5 years now that you could end the debate in Congress over stem cell and human cloning research in only 10 words:
When clones are outlawed, only Saddam Husein will have clones.
If those words were uttered in congress, debate would end, papers would be slipped into breifcases, and after a quiet moment the words "Next subject for debate" would be uttered.
Interesting the China and Great Britain are now pursuing stem-cell research although it may have little effect on the bovine mentality of our legislators.
The last time this kind of ethical brouhaha occurred was with encryption, when RSA had patents and Zimmerman was in trouble regarding exporting PGP.
I was trying in the early eighties to export hardware to China for Oil Accounting, but was prevented from doing so. What a joke! Our partners walked across the Hong Kong border an purchased grey market equipment!
Now we have the ethical wringing of hands in the Beltway over stem cell research...louder only than the wringing of hands over Enron profits and subsequent guilt.
Many Americans suffering from Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and so forth could do with some honest, regulated, stem-cell research to help alleviate their suffering.
Meanwhile, lip service to the primitives in this country takes precedence over common sense. So, maybe China will produce the breakthrough and people suffering from Parkinsons will have implants there AND see the Great Wall!
Unfortunately the Great Wall here is in our legislators' minds, those of the great paedophilic Catholic church and the pre-Darwinians in such places as Tennessee and Kansas.
Go China!
I can't be the only one here that cringes every time "Great leap forward" and "China" are mentioned together.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
I read the full article about human cloning in "The Wall Street Journal". The article is indeed shocking because the Chinese people have approached the issue of cloning in the usual fashion: total lack of ethics. The Chinese have not expressed any concern whatsoever for the moral implications of cloning.
By contrast, look at our American society in the West. We have debated the issue of cloning. We have expressed grave concern over its moral implications. Heck, even the Japanese have publically debated the issue of cloning and expressed grave concerns.
This Chinese behavior with regards to cloning is consistent with previous Chinese behavior. For example, immediately after the American nation froze or withdrew investments from mainland China just after the Tienanmen incident in 1989, the Chinese from Taiwan and Hong Kong immediately seized this market opportunity and poured billions of dollars of investment into mainland China. As another example, the Chinese on Taiwan use their constitution to declare that Tibet is part of mainland China while the Chinese People's Liberation Army torture and kill Tibetan nuns.
I really wish that people in the West would wake up. We should stop thinking that, somehow, the Chinese people are like us in the West. They are not. They are very different from us. We foolishly extol the Chinese values that we shallowly see among Chinese immigrants in the West.
We should look deeper. The Chinese are over-represented in our engineering and business schools at our elite universities. Yet, the Chinese are under-represented at meetings of Amnesty International at those very same universities. Why?
This observation is consistent with the story about cloning in China. The Chinese will use this cloning technology to achieve whatever unethical goals that they can envision. The Chinese have no ethics. The Chinese can understand engineering (in this case, genetic engineering), but they refuse to understand the basic tenets behind Amnesty International.
What follows is some observations, backed by verifiable sources, about the Chinese.
1. Most Chinese in Hong Kong support the return of Hong Kong to mainland China. A CNN/Time survey showed, in fact, that 60% of the Chinese in Hong Kong support the return of Hong Kong to mainland China. (reference: "Poll: Hong Kong residents optimistic" ) While East Timorese fought and died for independence from the oppressive Indonesian government, the Chinese in Hong Kong cheered the mainland Chinese government.
2. The constitution of the Chinese living in Taiwan supports the integration of both Tibet and Mongolia into mainland China. While Tibetans suffer and die at the hands of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the Chinese in Taiwan support integrating Tibet into "One China".
3. The Chinese son of the chairman of a powerful conglomerate in Taiwan has joined with the son of Jiang Zemin, the butcher of Tibet, to build an advanced silicon-wafer factory in Shanghai. (reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture")
4. Senior Chinese military officials retired from the Taiwanese military have gone to mainland China and given military secrets about the American F-16 fighter jet to the Beijing government. (reference: "Military secrets on sale to China")
5. Most Chinese, including those living in the United States of America, support the territorial ambitions of mainland China. Most Chinese support integrating Tibet into mainland China. Most Chinese support integrating the Spratleys into mainland China. Most Chinese support integrating the Senkaku islands into mainland China.
6. Most Chinese support Beijing's attempt to use torture and murder to crush the Falun Gong. Indeed, the Beijing government has funded anti-Falun-Gong meetings within the United States itself. These meetings within the United States are attended by the very same Chinese who fight with tooth and nail to stay permanently in the United States of America.
7. The Chinese from "poor, little, scared" Taiwan have invested more than $50 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. How did this phenomenon happen? Immediately, after the Tienanman Square incident back in June 4, 1989, the American government and businesses curtailed investments in mainland China. The Taiwanese (and the other Chinese in Hong Kong) seized this window of opportunity and accelerated investments into mainland China. The rate of investments from Taiwan into China has skyrocketed to the present levels; investments continue to grow at double-digit rates. (In 1999, the "Wall Street Journal" reported that of all the Chinese arrested and convicted of stealing American military technology to give to Beijing, the majority of these Chinese came from Taiwan.)
8. These observations are not an exaggeration of any kind. At your university, attend your local meeting of Amnesty International. The engineering and business schools will have plenty of Chinese people, but there will be virtually _NO_ Chinese faces in a meeting of Amnesty International. Chinese (and other Orientals) are over-represented in engineering and business schools, but they are under-represented in meetings of Amnesty International. Why?
So few Americans really know anything about Chinese society. We Americans are kind-hearted and naive. We simply assume that the Chinese are "just like us" and that the Chinese are simply (financially) poorer versions of ourselves. In reality, the Chinese are not like us. They are poor, but they are _NOT_ like us.
The Chinese, who've been alleged to use prisons as organ factories, or us?
And where is your proof to support that statement? Or is this just he-says-she-says-thingy?
Its one thing to salvage what is redeamable from a aborted fetus. Sad, but better than it being a total waste. But there is just something wrong with the creation of human life just for the purpose of harvesting them...
Figure out how to clone the CELLS, or grow them en-mass, but I think I just found my squeemish point in making babies just to get the cells.
Of course i havn't read the real reference, just the oft-misleading blurb so maybe i'm wasting my breath...
Allow me to help a Chinese like yourself. Check the proof at Amnesty International or CNN . In fact, read "Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony".
By the way, most Chinese consider Amnesty International to be a CIA-run operation. The Chinese simply cannot believe that just plain folks like us -- housewives, doctors, engineers, artists, etc. -- would give their time to volunteer in Amnesty International. The Chinese simply cannot believe this fact because in their own Chinese society, most people are morally bankrupt.
Of course they're ahead. It's known that they take organs from prisoners and sell them on the black market. It makes since that they have more stem cells available from the dead bodies.
But they are trying to clone human ?
Seems very odd to me.
This always amazes me - leaders would never get away with this shit in a non-asian country, even if they started killing people til they ran out of bullets. People wouldn't care if they died fighting.
*What the fuck is wrong with the Chinese?* Put a group of them together and they are the worst kind of useless followers. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you don't have any balls. Millenium of central control has bred any deviance out of that entire people.
Frankly, I do not want Americans to envy the Chinese. Even if the Chinese GDP exceeds the American GDP, the Chinese will still flee to the United States. Look at Taiwan. Look at Singapore. When these Chinese reach our shores, they do exactly what they have always done. They will praise their morally bankrupt Chinese culture and will become livid when we Americans criticize it; meanwhile, these Chinese will fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States.
Just look at these Chinese from Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. These Chinese from Hong Kong refused to support an independent Republic of Hong Kong and, indeed, praised the unification of China and Hong Kong; meanwhile, these same Chinese fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States.
As a society, we are better than anything that the Chinese can become. The Chinese are morally bankrupt. Check the proof at Amnesty International or CNN . In fact, read "Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony".
By the way, most Chinese consider Amnesty International to be a CIA-run operation. The Chinese simply cannot believe that just plain folks like us -- housewives, doctors, engineers, artists, etc. -- would give their time to volunteer in Amnesty International. The Chinese simply cannot believe this fact because in their own Chinese society, most people are morally bankrupt.
You're in your seventh year of college and you STILL haven't graduated with your bachelors degree?
Going to too many rallies on the mall, huh?
The trouble is that the Chinese never expressed any moral reservations about human cloning. There was no debate. They plunged headlong into cloning human beings. By contrast, in the United States of America, we debated (at length) the issue of cloning human beings. Religious and political figures weighed into the issue with their opinions. There was and still is much handwringing. I very much admire a society where morality and conscience take such prominence in every action that we do. That, in a few sentences, is the difference between us Westerners and the Chinese. Sure. Some Westerners may support human cloning, but they pursue it after weighing the serious moral issues.
I have little doubt that hordes of Chinese will write messages into this message board, supporting human cloning. After all, most Chinese support the policies of Beijing (i. e. the same Beijing that have tortured thousands of Tibetans). These very same Chinese will fight with tooth and nail to flee to or stay in the United States of America.
These Chinese are a detriment to American society and, in general, Western society (including Japan).
Just look at these Chinese from Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. These Chinese from Hong Kong refused to support an independent Republic of Hong Kong and, indeed, praised the unification of China and Hong Kong; meanwhile, these same Chinese fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States.
As a society, we are better than anything that the Chinese can become. The Chinese are morally bankrupt. Check the proof at Amnesty International or CNN . In fact, read "Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony".
By the way, most Chinese consider Amnesty International to be a CIA-run operation. The Chinese simply cannot believe that just plain folks like us -- housewives, doctors, engineers, artists, etc. -- would give their time to volunteer in Amnesty International. The Chinese simply cannot believe this fact because in their own Chinese society, most people are morally bankrupt.
The trouble is that the Chinese never expressed any moral reservations about human cloning. There was no debate. They plunged headlong into cloning human beings. By contrast, in the United States of America, we debated (at length) the issue of cloning human beings. Religious and political figures weighed into the issue with their opinions. There was and still is much handwringing in the United States. I very much admire a society where morality and conscience take such prominence in every action that we do. That, in a few sentences, is the difference between us Westerners and the Chinese. Sure. Some Westerners may support human cloning, but they pursue it after weighing the serious moral issues.
I have little doubt that hordes of Chinese will write messages into this message board, supporting human cloning. After all, most Chinese support the policies of Beijing (i. e. the same Beijing that have tortured thousands of Tibetans). These very same Chinese will fight with tooth and nail to flee to or stay in the United States of America.
These Chinese are a detriment to American society and, in general, Western society (including Japan).
Just look at these Chinese from Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. These Chinese from Hong Kong refused to support an independent Republic of Hong Kong and, indeed, praised the unification of China and Hong Kong; meanwhile, these same Chinese fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States.
As a society, we are better than anything that the Chinese can become. The Chinese are morally bankrupt. Check the proof at Amnesty International or CNN . In fact, read "Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony".
By the way, most Chinese consider Amnesty International to be a CIA-run operation. The Chinese simply cannot believe that just plain folks like us -- housewives, doctors, engineers, artists, etc. -- would give their time to volunteer in Amnesty International. The Chinese simply cannot believe this fact because in their own Chinese society, most people are morally bankrupt.
There is no "transition toward socialism," other than the process we're going through right now all over the world. Otherwise, socialism is just implemented.
As you may know, Marxists view modern society as the conflict between capitalists and prolitarians (workers), complications like peasantry aside. Capitalism is said to be the dictatorship of the capitalists few and the suppression of the prolitarian many, while socialism is said to be the dictatorship of the prolitariat many and the suppression of the capitalist few. The theory follows that the capitalists will no longer be able to exist as a class, and so will become part of the prolitarians.
Property is theft.
As for "rallies on the mall", I'll admit ignorance, since I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I'll take "jingoism" and "nationalism" from Column A, and "heritage" from Column B.
Oh, and bring me my fortune cookies first so I can see how much the check is going to be.
I'm talking about what is politically possible in the US due to majority opinion. You are talking about the narrow means by which those ends were achieved. In other words, your argument is non-responsive to mine. When it is politically impossible for the ~20% hardcore religious minority to stop stem cell research, some means will be used to override their influence and allow the research to proceed. It is unimportant what that means is.
Cloning? Wrong? Immoral? Unethical? Nonsense.
Show me one logical reason why "cloning" is wrong?
The sanctity of life? That's just bullshit we made up.
Playing god? More bullshit we made up. There is no god.
Growing a person to harvest him for organs? Well, we do have abortions, and if there's nothing wrong with abortion, there can't be anything wrong with that. As long as it isn't conscious, there's no big deal.
Cloning Hitler, Jesus, Socrates, Imhotep, or other dead persons? Well, their dead and have no say in the matter anymore. As for the concern of cloning someone who "was" evil, its ludacrous to think that doing so will result in the same person. Hitler wasn't a product of his genes. If Hitler had been born today, he probably would have wound up in a mental institute; or perhaps been a great artists; or who knows. But he wouldn't have been the holocaust-creating Nazi that we associate with the name. As for those people who believe that cloning such a person would result in the same end result, that's nonsense: every person makes their own decisions and choices. Hitler chose to become who he was; it wasn't forced on him by some quasi-religious concept of predestinaton.
Lets get over the irrational fear of human cloning. Its only the product of religious bullshit. Proof of point, in China, where the people aren't brainwashed by religion, they find nothing wrong with it; same in Britain.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
They're great with teriyaki sauce, too.
"Try sample, sir?"
1. Over a billion chinese, and you're going to recognize a clone or two?
2. You'd think they'd clone rice or toilet paper, instead.
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
If you mean university by saying college, then no. It's not free.
If by college you mean secondary school (year 9-14?), then yes, it's supposed to be free. (But usually ends up costing your parents money anyway)
My email addy? should be easy enough.
Isn't the Soviet Union in Asia?
Could you kindly stop cutting and pasting the same racist diatribe (last 5 pg) when you post? This is the third message I've come across with the same text in it.
thanks
Wonder if they'll bioengineer ultra-nationalistic Chinese that love chairman Mao and the color red. Don't laugh.
1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. New Zealand
4. Tie: Estonia, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and the United States.
9. Tie: Australia, Chile, and the United Kingdom
12. Tie: Denmark and Sweeden
14. Finland
15. Tie: Bahrain and Canada
NZ is, according to capitalists, more capitalist than the U.S.
after all, they are short on population and need all the people they can get..
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
We've already "cloned" Chinese ideas and culture around the world...! If you are going to clone...CLONE CHINESE...! The more Chinese...the better...!
Your comments are right on. Having lived in China for almost a year, I can tell you that the Chinese are the most racist people that have ever lived. The genuinely believe that they are superior human beings, and they are not losing that attitude any time soon.
You can easily see how racist the Chinese are. Just look at the concept of Lunar New Year. Much of Asia (with the exception of Japan) celebrates lunar New Year. Most Asians call Lunar New Year "Lunar New Year". Only the Chinese call it "Chinese New Year" -- as if the Chinese own the new year.
As another example, consider the Chinese in Taiwan. The government of Taiwan has a bureau called the Overseas Chinese Affairs Commission. Its function is to identify people whom it considers "ethnic Chinese" and to convince them to support China over their nation (e. g. United States of America) of birth.
In fact, the goverment of Beijing has a similar bureau. It actually sends Chinese nationals to the United States of America (USA) to identify "ethnic Chinese" and to convince them to support mainland China, to attend anti-Falun-Gong meetings in the USA, etc.
Why is the USA putting up with this racist crap?
The Chinese (from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong) have long admired Hitler and his Nazi ideals. Indeed, they support the Nazi idea of eugenics to breed a superior human being. Consider the following.
The truth about Chinese society is really shocking. The Chinese will use human cloning to achieve whatever unethical goals that they can contrive.
Some of it was (it doesn't exit anymore). The "powerhouse" of the USSR, however, was Russia, which is in quite definitely in Eastern Europe (Europe, by definition, ends at the Ural Mountains, which form the eastern border of Russia).
Up until the start of the 20th century, Russia was one of the more important *European* nations.
Alleging Chinese or US for allowing some publicly negative activities doesn't mean anything to us ordinary people.
Why this doubt against news? Well, US and China are both very large countries and people who live in either of these are socially aware (ie. afraid about their public image) so much that it inevitably affects to how news are told, tones of voice and refusal to mention certain things altogether.
I'm not saying to stop reading news, I'm saying that even if there's photographs and "fact" printed in black in white or live tv feed, it doesn't mean that from then on you know. Beacuse you don't.
Thankyou
just long enough not to show in the link checker...
nice, but I sort of disapprove of it...
Gaping asses should be ketp under scrict control.
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today.
You'd better learn to like them; that's what I say.
FreeBSD for the impatient.
I think you had better pay a visit to either Northern Europe or Canada some time Ace.
Germany, Holland have strong socialist leaning goverments.
Canada while no where near say Holland, is considerably more relaxed the the USA.
D.A.K.D.A.E.---- Deny all Knowledge, Destroy All Evidence
more superhuman Chinese athletes in the future? There's enough of them already!
Oh yea, you profess secular morality inorder to hate GWB.
Whattaguy.
I do know that it doesn't exist anymore.
Don't you think it would be pretty straightforward to grep any link for "goatse.cx", then flag the whole thing as a possible goatsex link?
I'm sure I could hack up a bit of code to demonstrate this, if anyone was interested. I wonder how much trouble goatsex trolls go to, trying to find out ways to obfuscate their goatse.cx links? Still, it keeps them out of trouble. Imagine if they turned their talents to something sinister...
The Chinese (from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong) have long admired Hitler and his Nazi ideals. Indeed, they support the Nazi idea of eugenics to breed a superior human being. Consider the following.
The truth about Chinese society is really shocking. The Chinese will use human cloning to achieve whatever unethical goals that they can contrive.
"In this case the democracy has thus far decided (although not clearly in one direction or the other) that the moral cost of stem cell research is not worth the scientific gain. "
What is this moral cost? How is this cost measured and in what units?
1. Money. China, if it creates new stem cell lines, would be eyed by major research companies and the pharmaceutical industry as holding the potential for millions of dollars in revenue.
2. No opposition. In a country where an individual and the individual's family are severely punished for having more than one child, and the government jails its people for religious expression, who is going to oppose this. In China, the government can effectively say "Throw all inhibitions to the wind. No one will oppose us."
That being said, though, China is headed in the wrong direction. Embryonic stem cell research, while showing "potential," has produced no results.
In fact, Chinese medical officials, in another case of jumping the gun, injected stem cells into a suffering Parkinson's patient. The results were horrific. Because we don't yet know how to control stem cells, they grew wildly and developed into one of the most primitive and terrifying cancers, a "teratoma." When finally autopsied -- the cure killed the poor soul -- they found at the brain site of the injection a tumor full of hair, bone and skin.
On the other hand, research conducted in the US has shown much more promise as a result of adult stem cells .
Adult stem cells were shown to be able to turn into every single tissue in the body. This would eliminate the need for therapeutic cloning and ESCR, as adult stem cells could be taken from the afflicted person and turned into needed tissues without concern for rejection.
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
Let's be blunt. We can blame many things on the Chinese government, but blaming "no opposition" (to cloning human beings) on the Chinese government is a bald-faced lie. There are plenty of Chinese in the United States of America (USA). They support what the Chinese government is doing.
Hard to believe? Not really. Take the issue of Tibet. Many kind-hearted but naive Americans believe that Chinese people refuse to oppose the Chinese government in its brutal occupation of Tibet because the Chinese government has threatened its people into silence.
Wrong. The Chinese support the Chinese government on a broad range of issues, including cloning human beings and brutally occupying Tibet. In fact, the Chinese in Taiwan have used their constitution to formally declare that Tibet is part of China.
Many of you are students at American universities. Look at your engineering classes. Just look at all those Chinese in your classes. Now, go to a local meeting of Amnesty International at your university. You will see almost no Chinese in such a meeting. It will have plenty of people from many walks of life and many countries, but there will be almost no Chinese.
Most Chinese just do not have our sense of right and wrong. They totally lack our sense of ethics. They view organizations like Amnesty International with disdain. They fully support plunging into human cloning without any regard to its moral implications.
We, however, are different. We are Americans. We are Canadians. We are Japanese. In short, we are Westerners. For several months, the issue of human cloning was intensely debated and discussed in the USA. Ethics weighed heavily in our discussions. I am proud that we as Americans have considered these issues before making any decision on cloning -- regardless of whether the final decision is to pursue or to ban human cloning.
The same cannot be said for the Chinese. We in the West must wake up. The Chinese are not like us. We know so little about the Chinese beyond our shallow observations of Chinese immigrants in the West. They are not (financially) poorer versions of ourselves. They are very different from us. They insist on being different and reject our sense of ethics, which is the foundation of our society.
What is bizarre is the following. These Chinese reject our sense of ethics but fight with tooth and nail to stay permanently in our country, the USA, which was built on those ethics. Hypocrite, anyone?
they're hardcore realists. They don't care much for ideals, ethics and right and wrong - they're concerned with the end, not the means.
You think this is a troll, but please learn about them. You will find that I am correct.
If you say anything critical about the Chinese, then the editors of Slashdot consider your comments to be racist trolling. If you say anything critical about the Americans, then the editors consider your comments to be either insightful or trolling, depending on the situation.
The Chinese have convinced a lot of people to buy into their game. The word "Chinese" can have 1 of 3 connotations: cultural sense, nationality, or ethnicity. When you say anything critical about Chinese society, the Chinese (here, I'm referring to cultural Chinese) immediately claim that you are talking about Chinese in a racial sense. Their chopsticks become all bent out of shape, and they accuse you of being a racist.
Chinese are shocked at the notion that Americans of Asian ancestry consider the United States of America (USA) to be their home, not the land from which their grandparents fled. To be perfectly frank, the Chinese are some of the most racist amoral people whom I have ever had the misfortune of knowing. The advent of the Internet has been a boon to people who want to quickly retrieve information (about the Chinese) from reputable sources. Before I started reading SlashDot, I never realized that Nazi ideals and Nazi war criminals are actually admired by a significant percentage of the Chinese in Taiwan. I now know this fact -- thanks to some of the URLs (to reputable sources) that people have posted to SlashDot.
...se topic!
I agree...
Warning: This sig contains a small bug. ==> *
First off...Communism is is economic system, not a political one, and therefore cannot be directly compared to democracy, as democracy is a political system. But going even further than that, the nature of Communism would in no way restict the freedoms of peoples, only increase. Read the Communist manifesto if you doubt me. Lastly, since China oppresses personal liberty and freedom, they cannot, in all conscience, be called a "Communist State." "Capitalism is the fantastic belief that the nastiest men, for the nastiest reasons, will for the benefit of us all." - Keynes.