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Mandrake Policy Change Angers Users
phalse phace writes "Yahoo! News is carrying a ZDNet News article which reveals that Mandrake has decided to change its policy regarding its Mandrake Club. Previously, Mandrake stated that all membership levels would enjoy the same benefits. But since Mandrake Linux 8.2 will include StarOffice 6.0 and Sun is charging for it, they decided to only allow the download of SO 6.0 to Silver members and higher."
Instead of bothering with licencing fees related to StarOffice, why not just include OpenOffice? They're the same codebase, right?
slashdot!=valid HTML
Well with Linux distributions getting larger and larger I'm not surprised they've had to restrict downloads - and with all the bad press abuot Microsoft recently more and more people are changing OS.
Video Game cheats, hints a
I heard SO 6.0 will be sold for approximately 100 (like $112), so Mandrake can't give it to the $5 a month / $60 a year members.
The people who subscibed to Mandrake club did it because they want to support the distro, so I guess they'll do the math and understand that it just isn't possible to give them StarOffice.
Anyway, OpenOffice is not very different from StarOffice, and it's available for free, so what's the big deal?
!
^_^
or the could put Open Office in it, which is actually not bad, and if I recall rightly is vaguely related to Star Office.
I wonder if their is some sort of contractual obligation to include Star, or were blinsided by the announcement that 6.0 is going to be charged for.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Were they expecting Staroffice 6.0 for $5 ? That would be ridiculous. This reminds me of some computer company which quoted a price of $200 for a notebook by mistake. Some customers wanted to buy it and were pissed when the company said that it was a mistake (obviously). Were they really expecting a laptop for $200 ? Same case here I guess. By accusing Mandrakesoft of ripping them off they are showing what big hypocrites they are ? These are probably the same people who dont mind paying $400 for Office.
My mom never taught me to sign.
The only thing I'd question is the short notice. They should take better care to avoid such a gaffe in the future. If they had announced, before 8.2 was released, that Star Office 6.0 would be at a premium due to Sun's charging, members would have less to gripe about.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I am a member of the Mandrake Club and although I understand some people beeing pissed at Mandrake going back on it's words. I can understand Mandrake's view.
The question is weather or not to give access to SO at all, after all, Mandrake will have to pay sun for it and as we know Mandrake is kinda short on cash
There realy are just two options, ignore SO completely, or pay sun and give access to it. If Mandrake is to survive, they have to make reasonable choises, and not giving away SO to everyone might be necessary.
Yeah, yeah, I know my splelling is not so good.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
I strongly suspect that early in the development cycle, Sun planned to charge for StarOffice. All they needed to do was get a few stable releases out the door, win some acceptance for the product and, above all, get users accustomed to it and reluctant to learn yet another office suite.
I wonder how many people would have downloaded and invested the time to learn Star Office if they had known from the outset that Sun was planning to charge for it.
Sun, you are a pretty good company in most respects, but I don't think this tactic will benefit your reputation. It would have been better if you kept the basic Star Office suite free, and offered some corporate-targeted optional add-ons (that private users and small companies don't need) at a price. Similar to your Forte Java IDE suite (Free 'Community Edition' through to pricey 'Enterprise Edition'). That would have kept people's trust in your company.
Hopefully, you'll write this off as a mistake, and offer 'Community Editions' of SO 6 and beyond.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
It's a matter of priniciples. When I signed up, I was promised x, y, and z. Now, just a few days latter, what I'm getting is just x and y. Now I'm sure that if I had actually bothered to read the club rules, there would be the generic "we have the right to change the rules at any time" clause. That's fine. Everybody does it, everyone ignores it until the changes hurt. Shoot, I don't care one bit about SO, I still would have signed up.
But they should have been able to see this coming. The SO announcement has been in the news for weeks. What it does is makes them look bad, like they really don't have a clue. That's what's bad. If the polls and discussions of the users on the club board really supported their decision, then that is the right thing to do. But they shouldn't have been blindsided by this.
I've recently coughed up the $60 because I've used their distro's in the past, and benefitted from them. Even though I have no intention of using StarOffice and will not be affected by it, I am dismayed at their policy change.
Mandrake should either offer those members that want it the chance to upgrade, or the opportunity to get their money back.
I feel reasonably happy as long as they make OpenOffice available for every club member. Put that this way, you will have to provide some extra service to attract higher fee (or even a fee). Many people in the industry may agree with me. Sometimes, you do really want your boss to support open sourced stuff with real $$$ but you cannot find an excuse. Consider bloody ridiculous crappy software in Windows can cost thousands and thousands of dollar, I think it is still a fair deal.
For example, I have heard my sysadmin is trying to persuade the dept to buy a membership from Mandrake (as we may have some spare budget this year). The availablity of StarOffice 6 will make our suggestion a much much stronger case for the PHBs...
Understand that. The world does not run on pixie dust, it runs on cash unfortunately.
-- The unsig...
Signed, a long-time Mandrake user.
Maybe those who donated over $60 don't want to see part of their money go to Sun. Did Mandrake think about that? Apparently not.
First people complain saying Mandrake has no business plan and is begging because they dont offer benifits and make a legit business out of it, now they make the club a legit club and not a donation, and people complain?!
People need to shut the hell up, Subcribe, or shut up, its that simple.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Mandrake read slashdot and saw posts about how they had no business plan, and how they were begging and blah blah blah, perhaps they are actually making Mandrake club a legit Redhat style service now.
Why include open office? Business users dont want Open Office they want STAR OFFICE.
People complain when Mandrakesoft is too fair, then they complain when Mandrakesoft does the same thing Redhat and everyone else is doing.
People, subscribe, or shut up.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
They'll be dead soon anyway.
Hail to the king, baby!
Open office is better than StarOffice. I have both and I use Open Office alot more. StarOffice unless it was HUGELY further advanced doesn't even peak my interest in any way other than "Why is Sun still trying to sell that?" They cant import Office files any better, not that it matters to me anymore, I've pretty much convinced everyone at the office that Microsoft File formats are Evil and reduce our communication abilities and profitability.. (That was an awesome speech at that meeting, dont know where those words came from but talking to sales people use Money as your motivation... it sucks them in every-time) PLus the fact that I have 1/2 the sales force using Open Office at home with the, "You just got a computer and you want to borrow the Office2000 cd set? No that's illegal, but here, Here is a free Office Suite that is just as good, and you can legally give it to everyone you want."
So, we now have over 1/2 the office workers and sales staff using Open Office at home AND now wanting me to install it on their computers at work to replace that Microsoft version.
Star Office, i wish them luck, but noone outside of a corperate purchaser is interested in it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Remember when RedHat used to distribute Metro-X and other commercial applications (Applix) with the OS? Only those who paid for the CD version would get the apps, and if you downloaded RH, you got the version without the commercial apps.
It makes perfect sense to offer star office, thats a good program and it seems only 4000 linux users actually put their money where their mouth is,
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Do people expect Mandrake to just hand out millions of copies of paid software for free? get real!
That Mandrake is going to pass along the cost of Sun's charging for StarOffice 6 only makes sense from a financial point of view, especially given Mandrake's recent money troubles.
It doesn't bother me a bit though, and I am a club member, though not at a level high enough to download StarOffice for free. I gave my $60 to Mandrake, not expecting anything in return, even though benefits are offered to club members. I gave my money because I think Mandrake is the best distro around, and one that has a real chance of making a headway against the MS dominance on the desktop.
So don't be upset that Mandrake is charging its customers to cover the cost of that which they are being charged for themselves. That's how a business is run. And unless Mandrake stays profitable as a business, this great distrobution might not be around in a couple of years.
If you enjoy or appreciate Mandrake's work, why not join the club yourself today?
The basic problem is one of credibility. Mandrake stated unequivocally that all club members would have the same privileges (which included access to Star Office). Now, they are going back on their contract and saying, "Whoops, sorry, we screwed up. I know you already laid your money down, but we can't give you what you paid for." The proper thing to do would have been either to offer refunds to club members who had already paid, or grandfather Star Office to everyone who had already paid.
This just makes Mandrake look both foolish and amateurish. If they wish to be taken seriously as a business, they can't go whining to their users for welfare payments one minute, then renege on promises the next. Mandrake produces a fine distro, but their business acumen leaves a lot to be desired.
Here's a free hint, guys: pissing off your loyal user base to save a few bucks in the short-term is a great way to doom your company.
Well, we can all ramble now on Slashdot about angry users, how we can feel with themn, or feel with Mandrake and try to understand their decision....
:-)
But...
Can someone please point out an angry user?
On Mandrakeforum all I found were a few posts of someone who said to be disappointed, and another one who was displeased.
That's not the same as angry. Well, maybe on Slashdot, but not in the rest of the world
So maybe this story has the size of a mosquito, where on Slashdot it is blown up to the size of an elephant?
Well, don't worry about that. We can get you back before you leave. (Dr. Who)
If you go to:1 3
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/article.php?sid=
You will see this as part of the announcement for commercial applications for MandrakeClub members:
"At this moment it isn't clear what will happen with the StarOffice. How badly do you need this application?"
This is dated March 8. Before they made the big membership drive, IIRC, or very close to it. Most of the responses below say that they don't care about SO. So, it looks like someone is spreading FUD about Mandrake and that Mandrake needs to be a little bit more thorough is updating its the marketing on its website.
They should have grandfathered all users who had registered by a specific time.
Changing (or announcing) policies like that should be done with much more care than what they did.
-- Huh?
Of course Mandrake isnt going to be free. People have to pay for the development. The clubs are just the way mandrake is going to make their money
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I am a member of the Mandrake club. I did not join to take advantage of the Mandrakesoft, just to help pay for the bandwidth when I download four? ISO images. Other then Crux, my favorite distro, Mandrake is in my opinion the best distro for moving people off of Windows.
I appreciate Mandrakesoft's efforts in supporting KDE, a WM which I use on my Sparc and FreeBSD machines.
People need to understand that if they do not provide at least some financial support to open source companies then there will be less choices for the "free as in beer" crowd.
I for one have had to pay the monthly charges for a T1 and appreciate a 55k+ transfer.
Very bad support of older distros. Once your distro gets a little old you wont be able to find any more rpms on their main site or mirrors, although they must be someplace.
Just watch, in a matter of months, 8.1 will vanish. If you're running a server with 8.1 and need a package for some reason, you'll have a hell of a time finding it. I believe they store the iso's longer. I had this very problem not too long ago, and even emailed them and asked what happened to 7.x, and they officially said i was s.o.l.
They basically want to keep moving you up in versions, but this is very hard if your are running a live server.
And of course they are going to charge for StarOffice. That's why they've made the investment of their time and resources in it in the first place. Did you think Sun is paying their programmers with bugfixes received from the community? - Nope, you need £$ for that. There's nothing wrong in trying to make a living.
StarOffice is (almost) free as in speech (since you can get almost the same code distributed with OpenOffice), not free as in beer. I respect Sun for trying to make money with OSS, despite freeloaders such as yourself.
I agree the timing was bad and people should also understand that it wasn't Mandrake that put a price on SO.
I gave Mandrake $60 and I'm not angry.
everybody in this "community" wants something for nothing and expects everything for free. grow up, take a bath, and use Microsoft Windows XP , a real OS.
Users who joined at $60 per month did so under the explicit statement that "all members enjoy the same benefits". Now that's been changed to include the word "almost". If Mandrake chooses to make this change, I hope that they keep existing users who joined prior to the rule change with the same benefits.
The club is a reasonable idea to attempt to increase revenue at a time they really need it and to simultaneously provide something unique and useful to their enthusiast user base. I can understand this change, but it needs to be communicated clearly to existing members. I hope it won't affect those members who already joined at the lowest rate.
I joined the Mandrake club at the Silver level and I also purchased the discounted ProSuite (which I would not normally have done) in order to support Mandrake. The users who joined at the standard level deserve to receive what they were promised, plain and simple. It's just a matter of principle.
- Leo
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
That's jibber jabber foo!
I mean no businesses use linux. Why would anyone need staroffice
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I'm not a Mandrake fan, nor do I use it. But I've gotta side with Mandrake in this one, because it's obvious some of you are taking their goodwill too far. I pay RedHat the similar $60/year, the lowest level, for priority downloads and other services. I don't expect anything more, nor should you Mandrake $60/yearers after reading their agreement.
Reality check people! $60/year does NOT entitle you to a product that is almost $100 on the retail shelf. I don't care about OEM licensing, Mandrake has got to make money! Furthermore, that $60 probably barely covers all the other services and benefits provided. Lastly, the statement of "receive the same benefits" would most likely extend to only Mandrake products and services, and NOT 3rd party products and/or services. Otherwise, Mandrake would go "belly up" (actually all distros seem to have a constant loss after all expense considerations, even RedHat).
Frankly, Mandrake should be commended on allowing StarOffice to be downloaded as an .iso thanx to membership, and Sun for licensing it to Linux distributors so they can do so. Man, I'm really getting sick of
this "whining" crap. Some of you "whiney" Linux users need to go! At least before most of the good, GPL-focused commercial organizations cannot sustain your selfishness!
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
'nuff said?
Seriously I don't see the problem with this. If SO6 costs money then Mandrake should not just give it away for 5 bucks.
What they should do is give the SO6 download to all the mandrake club members that _already_ signed up previous to the controversial decision. That way, the don't betray or lie to anyone, old members and members to come.
Sun decided to start charging for Star Office (which I don't understand since it doesn't seem to me like they have such a huge market share yet). Of all Linux distributors, Mandrake probably ranks on top of my list for features, liberty, advancement, stability, and overall beauty, and, over time, they have come to earn my trust and respect. With their financial difficulties lately (hey, face it, it's very difficult to make money off free, though with Free Software, money is less of a priority than liberty and advancement), and with Sun now charging for Star Office, Mandrake has been stuck between a rock and a hard place. So I can't blame them. I would rather they stick to the liberty they have stood for all along, than follow the flock and become more proprietary. If you want non-free, no problem whatsoever, pay for it. If you REALLY want proprietary and non-Free, no problem, buy into Redmond and get shafted by code no one can check. I guess the best option for Mandrake would be to offer Open Office freely, and charge for Star Office, something I suspect they are on their way to doing. Other alternatives (KOffice, Gnome Office, Abiword, ...) should also be promoted and given more support. For our own part, the best thing we can do is to directly support (by donation, purchase, or code) the cause of companies like Mandrake.
So don't be hard on Mandrake. They are on our side.
comparing linux vs. other os's and staroffice vs. ms office is not even close to the same. whereas different OS's are better suited to some tasks than others, all office suites serve the same purpose. plus there is almost no reason (aside from cost) for anyone to not choose ms office, and maybe wordperfect in some circles. anyways cost is not an overriding concern when business by these products.
so sarcasm notwithstanding, you are correct. Why would anyone need staroffice indeed?
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Open Office is still free, only drawbacks I can see are no desktop database system and no email client.
But with evolution and other mail clients, how big an issue is lack of built in email client?
I'm a standard ($60) club member and I'm not at all bothered that Mandrake are not providing StarOffice 6.0 for free. I'm a big fan of the Mandrake distribution, but I'm somewhat concerned about the future of Mandrakesoft - hence my joining the club.
Personally, I'd like to see Mandrakesoft stop offering free ISOs of their distribution to non-members (yeah, I know the GPL insists the source must be available, and it should be, but Mandrakesoft shouldn't make it easy for people to take and not give back).
Secondly, I wish they would give more incentives to join the club, such as making the popular Mandrakeforum site club members only.
I'm sure there are a lot of people running Mandrake that haven't paid for it and haven't joined the club. Legally, there is nothing wrong with that, but if the distribution is to survive, then perhaps some incentives may encourage people to part with their money.
I gave Mandrake my $60 in return for a club membership after their recent and rather desperate appeal for funds (to build the free Linux platform) so I feel that I'm entitled to an opinion, whether you agree with me or not.
There are two reasons why I don't like this StarOffice license deal:
1) People who in essense donated money to Mandrake in order to promote the development of the free platform now find some of that money going into Sun's coffers, regardless whether they wished to buy a license for the proprietary StarOffice or not.
I welcome any kind of Linux software support by independent developers and commercial ISVs but how does this kind of deal encourage choice? Should the vendors of WordPerfect Office, SmartSuite or god forbid MS-Office, or any other commercial applications, begin to sell pre-paid licenses to users/supporters of particular platforms? If you had effectively paid for one (as part of your platform support) would you still be interested in paying for the one that might really interest you? How is Mandrake's paying for StarOffice really different from hardware OEM's paying for Windows + MS-Office "on your behalf" when you go out and buy that new beige box? Shouldn't both the OEM's and Mandrake let the customer decide if they want the extras? Just negotiate the bulk discounts for your customers and let them decide.
2)"All members are entitled to same benefits"
I simply can't see how any vendor should be allowed to change such terms unilaterally and without due warning, let alone a Linux vendor who had just appealed to people's goodwill and financial help.
I've supported Linux (various flavours, bought boxes, converted and helped Windows converts etc.) for many years and one of the main attractions of Linux for me personally was the moral high ground it offered. I still like Mandrake's distro and appreciate their efforts at promoting Linux use on the desktop but I'm not happy with the way they handled this issue. Did something happen to Mandrake's soul when they became a publically-traded company?
It will be interesting to see whether the Mandrake Club staff will ever answer my email or not...
Now go ahead and burn me at stake for not approving with everything that some free software company does. I'm strong enough to take (actually deflect) any crap without the urge to join some militaristic boot camps. So there.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Charge like $3 or something to download the ISOs.
It's no big deal if people mirror them or copy them to friends, you just have to try and prevent multiple people from grabbing it. So only allow one login per username and expire the code after 15 days of the first login.
If they don't have everything they need in 15 days or if they didn't make a backup on CD they can pay another $3 and try again.
Wouldn't $3/download cover bandwidth costs?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
that so many people think things are owed to them. Mandrake puts together a wonderful distro, and it is available for free. They do it out of their own pocket in the hopes that they may actually sell some boxed sets, etc. The second they actually dare to charge for their services, people get upset. Mandrake doesn't owe it to anybody, if anything, it's owed them. You want Staroffice, buck up and pay up, otherwise, shut up.....
--Everyone manages by the book, they just don't always know which one.
Wouldn't $3/download cover bandwidth costs?
Probably, but...
MandrakeSoft doesn't actually host the ISOs. Volunteer mirror sites do, many of which are *.edu sites. The universities absorb the bandwidth costs (probably quite insignificant compared to their overall budget).
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
Anyone remember when Corel wanted to go after MS Office? They started selling their Office suite (with WordPerfect) for $999 per network server with no user limit. You could have 200 people use one copy and only pay $5/user! Much cheaper than MS Office.
Guess what. No one bought it. Even at that price. Do they think people will switch to Star Office for over $100/user?
i don't want staroffice: openoffice is included as an rpm. that's all i need.
And notice it was ms-zdnet who ran the story. f****** ms FUD.
Some people dont want word macro virii. Some people dont want their entire network hacked, taken down, etc by word.
The same reason people shouldnt use outlook and IE is why people shouldnt use Word. Security.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Status of Staroffice and Mandrake club members.
/.! Well I was going to give more money in a few weeks, and since
I joined the club, thinking I could help out, and all I could give
at that moment was $60, in a few weeks I could have done more but you asked for help asap. And this is the
thanks I get! I noticed right away when you posted that Staroffice was only for silver and above and was very
made, then a hour latter it was changed I figured you would work it out and come back with a solution, well you
have had time yet Mandrake club users have no answer. Not a word about this issue anywhere on you site that
I can find, now luck you, you get smashed on
it did not matter what level of membership I had it would have been ok. I downloaded the new 8,2 it sucked,
your treating you members like shit, and your pulling a microsoft and being silent about the whole mess.
You need to fix this issue, confront the members, let them know what is going on. Give them a chance to
upgrade. Today!
If not good luck guys, it will be bad to see another Linux distro go down in flames but that's what a free market
economy is all about.
Joshua SS Miller
I am a republican not by choice, but rather by lack there of.
Well, I suggest phpMyAdmin from http://phpmyadmin.sourceforge.net for all your MySQL admin jazz. It doesn't seem to get much simpler than that. Edit a few lines in your config.inc.php file and you are ready to go in like 5 minutes. :)
You think your paltry $5/mo should allow you to download software that may cost as much as your membership?
Now a lot of my friends use Mandrake with great success, but I had very poor results with 8.2 on a Sony Viao FX290. None of the config utities would work, they mostly hung needing a reboot. So I switched to SuSE Professional, and the only glitch was having to specify NOPCMCIA=yes as a kernel param which was stated in their handbook. Maybe I could have done the same with Mandrake, but the people who responded on the mailing lists to my questions were arrogant and unhelpful. Thats what got me to use fdisk and wipe out the partition :)
I also searched the cooker archives and found that many people were saying that the Mandrake community had changed- too much pressure to release, and a reluctance to acknowledge bugs.
But I wish them luck. SuSE is a much bigger organnization with more resources. Plus I had to pay $80 for SuSE- but it was well worth the money.
I've heard that Star Office 6.0 (beta) is much better than 5.2, but people in this thread are not always specifying which they are talking about. Does anyone know how the current version of Open Office compares to SO 6.0? I understand they are the same code, but SO 6.0 isn't fully released yet. Is the equivelent Open Office code out yet or is it still comparable to SO 5.2?
As I entered into a legal contract with Mandrake by sending them money, part of the contract was the explicit announcement that all levels of membership would enjoy the same benefits, their only legal choices are to not offer Star Office or offer it to everyone.
They are free to change the membership at any time, but anyone who joined under the original offer has to be treated by the terms of the original offer.
I joined the Mandrake Club to support a great distro. They have a member's message board and on that board they asked members if they really needed StarOffice 6.0. The vast majority and myself included, conveyed the sentiment that although StarOffice 6.0 would be nice, we would be satisfied with OpenOffice.
/. posted Mandrake's plea for help which was met, in large part, with comments like "hell no we won't pay" and "If they go out of business, we don't care." I don't blame them for rethinking their business model.
After
I have heard that if they don't get enough support to survive they may concider not releasing new versions of Mandrake until they do receive enough support to justify it.
Sometimes the users of open source are their own worst enemy!
Way to go guys.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Hmmm for people who wont pay there are warez and open source alternatives, you could also just stick with the version you already have. Fucking hell its not like Mandrake are trying to fuck you up, they need money aswell and if this gives them a few extra pennies just pay for the software. Mandrake are not the cunts, sun are. 1 simple reason fo that is Mandrake was the OS that removed me from m$ windoze. (I have now moved on to a more up-to-date OS).
This is my OS
If that link didn't work you can see the url so check it out yourself!!
~AC~
Mandrake makes a great product. It is the one distribution I feel okay to recommend to Windows refugees. A few rough edges but overall a great distribution.
The business side is not so great though. Their business plan is unclear and not focussed. They tend to look amateurish with incidents like this. They need to clean up their image and management. Appear more professional.
They already have a loyal community built around their product. They need to tighten up the business side though.
I really hope Mandrake does well. I like their product.
Firstly, don't blame the distro for the application's manufacturer's actions.
Secondly, Sun has a right to try and recoup some profit off their products, and they did support OpenOffice. We, as consumers, have the right NOT to purchase or seek alternatives.
Thirdly, Perhaps instead of whining about it, one could be supporting the other office apps out there, such as KOffice, GnuOffice (Abiword, etc...), SIAG, et al, would be a more powerful message to those who would consider any M$-like sales manuevers.
Finally, one can always stay with 5.2. It is unfortunate that it appears that Sun supports GPL, GNU/FSF with one hand, then attempts to take financial advantage with the other, but again, Sun has a right to get paid for their efforts, and we have the right to choose whether or not to purchase.
PVJR
"I drank WHAT!?!?!?!?!???" Socrates.
Not it is not! Of course Mandrake is not shareware. It is available for free, source and all, no strings attached, permission to distribute, copy and mirror at will. This is _NOT_ the shareware model. If you register a shareware you still only have one license, not as many as you want.
Simply in order to sustain the costs of putting up the distro Mandrake needs money, more money than they can raise, at least short-term, by selling it.
It turns out I really like their distribution, and I use it to work and make my own money, and it would be a disturbance for me should they go out of business. So I gave them money, and hoped enough people like me would do the same so they can stay in business and I can keep happily using their stuff. Even though I don't _have_ to give them money.
Easy hey?
As a side note,I paid the club membership, but really, I would hope they spend as little as possible on members-only services. All I expect from them is to use that money to keep on building nice distributions (8.2 is _so_ easy to install compared to windows it's obscene). And no I don't mind free-loaders, I just hope enough people understand it is in their best interest to have companies like Mandrake, Suse, RedHat Connectiva... around
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em. (Terry Pratchett)
Where is the problem? Star Office is one of the most crappy soft I look at. Now Sun ask money for giving it. good for them.
I remember a company who did the same things near Redmond. They have now a lot of money, very good coder and they sell (also known as MSOffice...)a soft which can't be compared to StarCrappyOffice.
Definitively run another shit than StarOffice. You are under linux? Me too and I use Fvwm2, which surpass Gome, KDE... it runs faster, adn 95% of the time it is the same command that are used. the 5% last, I use locate.
elmastard
How can Mandrake give away something that Sun is charging for? Mandrake is having enough problems trying to generate cash from something they do for free without buying Sun software and giving that away.
Clueless.
Sun is offering for as low as $25 per copy for large orders. That's plenty less than the $60 I paid Mandrake. $100 is the individual license price, Mandrake most assuredly is getting a bulk license. It would be stupid not too.
So my $60 had darn better cover a license for me for StarOffice, or Mandrake's business folks that made whatever deal with Sun deserve to be fired for incompetance.
*TheDarb
This sig intentionally left blank.
Linux is dying because its losers won't pay
for software. The more clueful users are
switching to FreeBSD.
Then only charge when downloading from Mandrake's servers.
creation science book
I'm glad they're charging money for something.
They can't develop mandrake for free!
Hell i think its worth $5 BUCKS!
common how cheap can you people be????
Even if we do have to pay for linux distro's one day. i'd rather pay for linux then windows!
just my 2 cents
I ain't afraid to fly, and I ain't afraid of no monkeys either.
Excellent points, all of them. I totally agree with you. I'm getting very sick of whiney users who just want everything for free because the OS just so happens to be free. These are the same people who put Loki out of business and I will NEVER forgive them for that (I own over $300 of Loki software). I use Linux because I simply find it to be more reliable and it's definately more flexable than Windows. However, I didn't expect to see high-quality, commercial grade software available for free. The money has to come in from somewhere, and there's only so much independant developers and non-profit organizations can do.
As a member of the club, I joined because the money would go to help support programmers who are writing open source code that everybody (even the people who whine) shares. Since I am not a Linux expert, I figured contributing to somebody who could help was a good idea. I think the majority of the Mandrake Club members share my opinion. When I joined (early) they said they were going to figure out what club benefits were, other than the warm hearted feeling that the members had done something for the world of Linux.
Further, I have installed Mandrake 8.1 on lots of my machines and have been able to abandon windoze to one underpowered box that I use when I absolutely need some app. That, in my mind, is the value I received from the club membership and from Mandrake. I am free of windoze and free to have a well designed good performing machine.
Lots of Slashdotters say they want an open software environment with sharing of assets but when somebody makes a reasonable business decision they cry and whine.
Mandrake Club membership started quite some time before Sun announced that they were going to charge for Star Office, didn't they?
I know it's redundant by now, but do the math! If you didn't want your money to be treated with low reguard, then you should've gotten a better package. I paid $60 for standard membership and I'm perfectly fine with Mandrake's decision. Sun charging for StarOffice isn't Mandrake's fault, it's Sun's fault. Go bitch at them, instead.
instead of whine bitch moan, how about whine think fix? y'all are supposedly smart, fix it! (ie make your own damn distro, pay for star office 6 and then re-distribute it for free.) sound like a business plan from 1999? it should. we know how those worked out, don't we? quit bitching about a company trying to make money in open source. unless it should not be done, if that is what you think, then go into your room and pick up the slack of all the open source players going bye-bye and starting coding! if you are not willing/capable to do this, support those who can! a replacement for MS Office is the key, the operating system of choice will follow that. one example that comes to mind is loki. great product, but the close minded "free as in beer" idealogy of the open source community killed them. how many more?
....some people in the Mandrake club don't want to pay up, that's fine. I don't mean pay up for stuff that is free as in beer you know... they didn't want to pay for stuff that costs everyone cash.
If some people leave the Mandrake user-base then hopefully they will move onto other places in the linux world. Hopefully [for many in the community] Mandrake will make some money not for selling linux but a good linux app.
Hell, star office is nice on my XP machine. I run it at home where I can't afford a $400 piece of software.
FTP sites should hold some ISO's and I expect colleges to host some distro's so I can install from a floppy if I'm in a pinch. Hell, starting today I'm hosting different completely free linux iso's on gnutella.....
... but the end point is we want linux boxes on store shelves. I'm not a developer but I like linux and I hope it gets a good sized [35% total?] user base all around.
Linux must make it somewhere on someone's desktop because not only do some people feel like they have to pay cash - but some people need funding for development.
Get your Unix fortune now!
This wasn't for Linux. This was the fully working Windows version with support.
And they made SO6 free for higher class members. I have no problem with that either, I could have used SO6 (I'm still using OO 639c) but it is possible to buy it from Sun anyway. All members can buy pro suite at a discounted rate which has SO6. And those silver and gold members did pay more than me, so it is only natural they can profit more from their membership.
My only problem is that mandrake failed to keep their promise. They categorically stated that we would all be same, enjoy membership goodies no matter how much we payed. When I first saw it, I thought it was dumb to say. But they did say that. I didn't request to be treated same with other levels, even if I paid considerably less; it was their promise
Why should I trust mandrake now? Which promise they will break next? These are the real problems with their move. SO6 has nothing to do with discussion.
And another thing is, I just whine. Perhaps somebody will be enough pissed so they won't be satisfied with just whining. Do you think mdk has a chance in the court? How will the company survive if it is forced to make SO6 downloads free for every member?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
I don't take broken promises lightly. They never promised to supply us staroffice, but they did prmise that we will be treated equal. I want them to keep their promise, not fscking staroffice.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
I gave $120. I did it and did not immediately log in to see what I could get. I haven't paid attention. I am not rich, I am a frickin' grad student. I did it to support a good distro through some bad times.
I also PAID for the boxed 8.2 release...same reasons. Up to now, I've downloaded iso images or did the slower, painful upgrades via rpm alone. I figured it was time to give back. It is a GOOD thing to pay, at least once in a while, for the work your distro is doing. Ungrateful, snot-nosed twerps.
THIS is one of the main reasons that there are no linux games. This is the main reason there is practically no linux commercial software. When was the last time you saw an opensource tax-prep package? Or a top-of-the line game come to linux and do well? All that has EVER come is a port (loki, now dead because of deadbeats leeches) or out of the goodness of the developer's heart (idSoftware) but STILL requiring a windoze game purchase. This last is just a nice gesture and does nothing to keep the company afloat and game-producing.
Ya'll have the misimpression that you are OWED software. That you shouldn't have to pay for ANYTHING...ever. That you are entitled to ANYTHING. Nope. You are not. You want the niceties (simple installers, nice development ala Transgaming's version of wine that works better than ANY other version of wine to games), then you should be willing to pay to get them...REGARDLESS of licensing.
Too many of you talk a good game
about the strength and political superiority of opensource but what you are REALLY doing is demanding free/never pay for software developed by the labor of others. I LIKE opensource and I like that I can get most/all of it for free but I also know for a fact that a lot of it would NOT be here if NO one coughed up money to cover the costs. Fact. Grow up and join the real world.In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
that this has probably nothing to do with SUN SO being not free anymore? I think the people at Mandrake, saw that after their announce of money shortage, a lot of people suddenly subscribed to their club (like I did). Most of the people think $5 a month is enough, but hesitate about the $10 a month subscription.
Probably, a guy at Mandrake thought: "why not make it a little bit more attractive to go for the $10 option by introducing a difference (though with open office around, really only psychologically)". Maybe people will think: " uhmm... star office, what's next. You know what, I'll tick the $10 option."
Would have worked for me. Too late for them now.
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
Mandrake Policy Change Angers Users
:) not free speech )
What a load of crap. I couldn't care less about what Mandrake is planning to do with Star Office, or whether they are going to give away this or that for free. And this definitely does not anger me, and I'm sure most of the people who actually did subscribe to any of the levels of the Mandrake club dont really give a shit.
The only people who are angered by this are the freeloaders who didn't and never would subscribe to it because they believe in the "free" world ("free" as in free bread,
There is really no need to have such a heading, as its not only mis-informative, but it also encourages people to argue about stupid shit.
Pathetic
The other strange thing is when you do join, there is a lag time between when you pay and when you get your website login, mine was about 4 days. The receipt for payment doesn't even notify the customer that he will be receiving a login. Some people probably pay and mistakenly assume that it is just a donation until 4 days later when they get a login.
Maybe the motto of Slashdot shouldn't be "News for nerds. Stuff that matters." It should be "News for dumbfucks. Stuff that no one cares about" Of course you're going to have to pay for commercial software you idiots. "WHAT I HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT COSTS MONEY?? HUH?!?!" Enough said you fucking idiots.
I have to agree with everyone who mentioned that Star Office isn't free. Why do people think MandrakeSoft will foot the bill for it? they have to pay for it, and it's a feature, so they are passing the cost on to the customer. (Sounds fair to me) If you want to complain about it, then go get Open Office like the rest of us.
craig@penguindevelopment.com
Some people don't want the world to read their revisions, deleted opinions of clients and competition, random snatches of conversation that happened to be lying around in memory.
Some people don't want to be tracked either by document IDs or by their software calling home.
Some people don't want to be locked in to an endlessly escalating software rental deal.
Some people don't want to use software produced by a convicted but essentially unrepentant criminal organisation, one successfully prosecuted on many occasions for crimes like software piracy, lying and cheating - to say nothing of monopolisation.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Leon: no, OpenOffice does all I need, I prefer to use open source anyway, and it sems fair to me to ask for more payment if you're getting more service. By the way, you can download Mandrake 8.2, including OpenOffice and the source for it for free, no strings attached. Are you riding an agenda with that question?
ZDNet reporter: Uh... bugger. now we're going to have to add `Some' to the headline. Bill will halve our kickb^H^H^H^H^Hencouragement for that.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Mandrake Club membership started quite some time before Sun announced that they were going to charge for Star Office, didn't they?
No, where did you get that idea?
I'm a fairly well off Old fart, college grad, who coughed up $120 to Mandrake and could give a shit about Star Office. The reason I did it and I suspect many silent others, is because we are tired of just laying on our backs and getting fucked by Gates and M$ by having to use their ridiculously priced piece of shit of an OS and have delusions of a better world for our grandchildren.
Mandrake has a bad business model and has to recover from previously bad management. They have a great distro but it won't be for long if they don't start making some changes in the right direction.
At every hackfest, I had at least 2-3 people ask about my Loki games, "Are you allowing people to copy this?" Com'mon! I too bought most of my Loki games direct for $25-50, and picked up a few others at EB for $10-20.
Of couse, the game market just had too thin of margins for Loki to survive regardless. I'm glad to see independent developers signing NDAs with game makers to make Linux ports though. Hopefully the major houses will start doing their own soon enough.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Even before this got posted on /. I visited their club membership info. page and left wondering why in the world anyone would subscribe to the Silver and Gold membership plans if all membership classes enjoy the same benefits. It would only make sense that higher membership fees afford more benefits. Finally, someone at Mandrake has some kind of business sense to make this change.
I've used Mandrake off and on for the last two years and will be giving 8.2 a try shortly. Mandrake is a decent distribution for newbies and techies alike. I've recently chatted with a friend, who works at JPL, mentioned Mandrake is doing some customization of its distribution to cater to JPL. Asked why JPL didn't choose a more established distribution, the answer was Mandrake is a more nimble (flexible) and smaller company to work with. It really deserves some kind of credit for making Linux appealing to such a wide audience.
Just my $0.02
I'm a Mandrake Club member, and this doesn't bother me (though it might make me reconsider which version I buy).
What bothers me is that they're asking us to choose which distribution we want to pre-order, but they aren't telling us what packages are included. Not that's annoying! (And silly.)
The result is that I haven't ordered yet, even though I've been pretty satisfied by Mandrake 8.2. And now Red Hat is getting ready to release the 7.3 beta, so I may look at that before I make up my mind. So they may have lost a sale.
I still don't regret joining their club. That was to support them. But I may end up buying the next Red Hat.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It's an on-again, off-again, kind of game that they play. The first time they did it, I was impressed. This time ... I'm more worried about other parts of the license.
And I'm not agreeing to it. Not once. If someone wants it installed, they're going to need to get someone else to install it. Mind you, they can. That's not my point. With the license changes that they've made they have every incentive to get as many people as possible to install it on as many systems as possible. Expecially the provision that says (paraphrased) "We have the right to copy to a location of our choice, add delete, or modify any file on your computer." Now I don't believe that any court would enforce that right before the fact, but for that they have added technological whizz-bang, so they can do it without your permission. And with that contract in place, good luck on getting any court to order a restore afterwards. In fact, good luck at even proving just what happened.
What would you do if MS encrypted your disk "to improve security", and they were the only ones who knew the key. Then they decided it was time for you to upgrade your system, but as a bonus, they threw in a free security system upgrade (auto-installed). Which didn't work with some of the older programs.
If you think they'd never do this, then you've never had the dubious pleasure of managing an upgrade between "compatible" versions of MS Access. That's one they've always broken (though sometimes they've been subtle about it).
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I was kind of suspicious when Mandrake announced that they would give the same support to the various metallic names they associated with membership, because why in the first place would they have bother doing it if everyone was treated at the same level. This announcement doesn't look too good for their PR though. It's a bad time for them to become unpopular. I think that they tried to be too nice from the start and every bits and pieces that they are taking back are making everyone angry
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Anyway, OpenOffice is not very different from StarOffice, and it's available for free, so what's the big deal?
The "big deal" is that Mandrake formed a legally binding contractual relationship with people who paid $5 per month. They promised that "all membership levels [would] enjoy the same benefits." Now Mandrake is reneging on it's obligations.
I do not understand where you (and other people) got the idea that a company can simply ignore legal obligations whenever it is financially advantageous to do so.
Anyway, OpenOffice is not very different from StarOffice, and it's available for free, so what's the big deal?
Then supply OpenOffice for free and sell StarOffice to those who want to pay for the difference.
The reason why people who signed up for the standard membership are angry is because Mandrake SAID they would be able to download SO 6.0. All the standard members who signed up before Mandrake went back on their words should get to download SO 6.0 regardless of the new policy. It's the right thing to do.
I will buy new StarOffice versions at reasonable prices (70-100 dollars depending on features), but they can bet their farm that the first time a word document doesn't open correctly I will expect immediate attention to the problem.
Otherwise what am I paying for? I can efficiently work with .rtf's for free.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
> While OpenOffice is preferrable for most things,
> there are a couple of people who need StarOffice until
> there are free replacements for the missing parts.
This seems to be a common mentality - if it ain't free, don't use it. Let the "corporate pinheads who have $$$ to burn" pay for "support". Or whatever, just so that I don't have to pay any money. Hey, I do it myself - if it's not mission critical, I don't want to pay for it.
You know, at some point, people have to start paying for this stuff. If you hear muffled screams from Mandrake and Caldera and VA Linux and Eazel and others, it's cuz they have mouths to feed. Hobbyists hacking in their spare time, off from their "day jobs", that's not enough. Linux needs to be people's day job, and for that you need money coming in. Linux has to have money flowing through it, just like a shark needs water flowing through it, otherwise it'll suffocate.
Shit, Mandrake starts demanding a few bucks, in between gasps for air, and everybody gets pissed at them. You want to know who's keeping Microsoft on top of the market, look in a fucking mirror.
Marketing-driven companies end up over-marketing their products. Engineering-driven companies end up over-engineering
It's not really possible to put a $100 program in a free distro. Maybe certain large monopolies can do it, subsidicing it with sales of Doze & M$ Orifice, but a small company like Mandrake can't do it. Even beer can't be free if the ingredients are expensive.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Why reply posting a quote you are supposedly replying to and then rant about something totally different than what you quoted? Funny, I haven't noticed Open Source suffocating.
If Sun decided to pull SO from the market, after Mandrake had promised to deliver it, would you expect Mandrake to hire a team of developers and re-create what SO was, just to meet their promises?
-- "Big Brother is Watching..."
You are so right, I'm not directly a member of mandrake's user club, but I have purchased their distro before, and various pieces of clothing, and will probably continue to do so in the future. Their product will only get better, and whinning about technicalities like this are just stupid. Right now redhat isn't even trying to me a desktop contender, mandrake really is the best desktop contender, which is a good thing, in fact 8.1 was a seriously good compiliation of software, I stripped my slackware router at work here and replaced it with mandrake 8.1 because it's so freakin easy and powerful. So why whine about a free product, that is that good?! ANd who cares about star office, sun would be microsoft if given the chance, open office never would!