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Lycoris Desktop/LX update 2 Released
David writes "Redmond Linux Corp has just released Lycoris Desktop/LX Update 2 (build 46 final). Relatively user-friendly, loads of goodies and nice features. Should give Lindows a run for its money. Who says Linux is dead on the desktop? ;-)"
I went with an earlier version of Lycoris as my first distro, and dropped it after about three days. One of my favorite things about other popular distros is the shear amount of apps you have to choose from. The Lycoris install, while allowing you to play Solitare while it chugs away (very cool), leaves you with ONE word processor, ONE web browser, etc. While this may be nice for newer users, it just doesn't quite appeal to me...
Q: Who says Linux is dead on the desktop? ;-)"
A: Everyone who isn't a Linux chauvinist, OR who doesn't believe that before Linux can be dead on the desktop, it has to first be "alive" on the desktop first. I don't think that Linux even registers as being on the desktop in the orthodox sense.
N.B. I believe this even though I am writing this from Linux.
Their network browser looks very very nice. Anyone know if a similar tool exists for gnome?
Spanks.
Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
Geocrawler error message.
So how come everything they do is worthy of being copied
I don't think the interface to the Windows OS was ever something people complained about (minus that damned Paper Clip..). The more ghastly problems are not in the UI, but the underside that the user doesn't see (VM subsystem, TCP stack, etc), and the coding methodology used to develop it. So not 'everything' is worth being copied...however a GUI that people are familiar with might not need too much improvement, and may make people more willing to try something new, and more comfortable in general.
--Kylus
Idiot-proof something, and Life will build a better Idiot.
Unfortunately to get Linux on the desks of many businesses two things have to happen (actually 2 or 1 thing). First, it must be an identical experience to Windows. I don't understand that as much of Linux is from the user standpoint (ie tech support handles installs etc...)Businesses do not want to interrupt a known good proccess without an obvious ROI. Second, Microsoft itself must provide motivation (they are working on it with their licensing scheme).
Alternatively, if a big group of corps start using it other people will too.
the everyday win/mac users don't really know what options are available. the big things keeping linux off the desktop are:
drivers: people are using new hardware all the time and have a perceived image that linux doesn't have drivers for their hardware (wireless network, usb mouse, video, sound, etc).
installation: the install programs NEED to be able to identify hardware on a users system and configure drivers w/o user intervention. being asked what type of network card i have on my box isn't something i should know much about, let alone what integrated sound chip i have, or what kind of mouse i have. to sum it up, linux will find more spaces on the desktop when the installers and drivers are as upto date as possible.
The overwhelming numbers of BSD users do. As I always say, Linux for serving, OpenBSD for firewalling and Mac OS X for when you got to get things done.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
What any free os needs to succeed is a really good pinball version and atleast 13 versions of Solitare.
Most people use the default setup, possibly changing their desktop wallpaper.
There are also GUI tools for configuring X. The only way X is inferior to windows in the resolution changing department is that you have to restart X. But you can also quickly change resolution using CTRL-ALT-+/-, which is useful sometimes.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Redmond-based Linux providor Lycoris teaming up with MPAA, RIAA to provide users with a safe-computing environment, code-name Palladium.
When was it ever alive?
I don't know, but to me it seems that while the current state of the linux desktop leaves a LOT to be desired, it is continuing to make improvements. If groups like Redomnd Linux keep making improvements, the linux desktop will keep getting better and more compelling. I admit I only use the linux desktop to toy around right now, but I can definitely see it being viable in the future. Why does everyone have to say that linux on the desktop is dead? Obviously if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. I'll bet that there are pleanty of people that do use it and welcome any improvements. (Okay, I'm starting to rant)
The XP fisher-price look has leaked into a linux distro. I say we ritually burn it unless they come up with a distro that hasn't got the XP look and its intended audience as target. (retards, who regulary say the follwing: "OH NIFTY COLOURS!!! CLICKETITYCLICK! PRETTY! What did I do?")
Hate me!
I wasn't going to join into the 'linux is dead' flame war, but you drew me in. Quite frankly, I think linux as a desktop OS is great. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I can't handle windows for anything more than games (try as I might, I can't get Solder of Fortune 2 running under linux...). I run mandrake 8.1, and everything just works. It never mysteriously shuts down on me like win9x likes to do (although I must admit, win2k has been pretty stable, though I only use it for games). There's more than enough software available for anything I want to do under linux (browsers, irc, office apps, graphics, multimedia). All in all, I think quite the opposite - linux on the desktop is just starting to get good. Now that there are some more user-friendly distros (mandrake, redhat, and apparently lycoris) with easy installation and a pretty gui for the newcomers, now is the time when linux installs on desktops should be on the rise. The more people use it, the more it will improve as a desktop OS, and the more it improves, the more people will use it. Things are just getting interesting...
do not read this line twice.
that's who. Can you imagine your average user recompiling the kernel or some such? ha. However, I believe that it is starting to get *closer* in terms of setup, etc. I liken it to the differences between a mac and a pc. Both work, they just require different approaches to solving problems. In terms of "life" though, it's a mummy.
I'd say that the most intelligent people trying to get away from Windows aren't doing it to get away from the kludge-y look-and-feel. I don't run Windows because I don't agree with their business tactics and their "get it out the door before we're sure it works" development model, not because I abhor the start menu. If emulating the look and feel of Windows over a free and open operating system draws more home users, then more power too them. Linux users have always had a love/hate relationship with it becoming a prominent desktop OS, and that's sad. If the community wants Linux to be a desktop force, then we're going to have to unify on how that is possible. To be possible, yes, we're going to have to swallow a little pride and make it more user friendly.
--- What
- network neighborhood
- control panel
- sofware installer/updated
- general ease of use of windows
While I think that for the average linux user, this will be far too bloated, I wish that something like this existed when I first switched to linux.I currently use Mandrake (no surprise), but I am finding that I enjoy more and more the customizability of editing things by hand. I try to modify settings by hand whenever possible, and stay away from applets. Mandrake has done well by not confining you to applets.
Although I would try this distro (if I had an extra comp.), I enjoy mounting filesytems by hand, as well as modifying XF86-config and compiling by hand. Something that other distros could learn from them however, is creating similar network neightboorhood client for browsing smb servers. I use Linneightborhood and Komba2, but it would be nice to be able to browse a server without needing to mount it first.
All in all, kudos, I hope everything works as you claim, keep up the good work!
This looks pretty good in my opinion, I think I may even install it on my Mom's computer so she can start to understand the Linux world... my only concern was the availability of sourcecode. There was a snapshots page... but that's a far cry from a nice ISO to download and burn onto a CD. I noticed that for 10 extra bucks I could get a CD with the source, but that seems to be in violation of the spirit of the GPL. Hey, I know these guys are trying to make money... but they are trying to make money of the backs of some very dedicated volunteers... the least they could do is provide a more simple way to access their source.
Aside from that, this looks great. I just hope that it runs as well as their cute little pictures make me want to believe.
Only 120 characters... who can summarize their entire world understanding in 120 characters?!
They have to make ads with people flying all around in a Cathedral and a Bazard.
I'd rather be sailing...
In order to get people to switch from Microsoft products they need to feel familiar and comfortable with the environment. Do you think anyone would willingly switch if they had to look at something they didn't recognize or couldn't easily figure out how to use? If you don't like the way it looks don't use it, but don't know the fact that it might actually get some people to switch.
I will second that!
:P
This looks way to much like the M$ desktop for 10yr olds.. just click the big phone icon and you go online! wow..
seriously tho WindowMaker rules
The greatest right given is the right to be wrong...
How many times it should be repeated?! Linux CAN'T DIE! It is just a freaking OS kernel! and btw, who put that smelling dead penguin on my desk?!!!
I need help can some one please explain to me a few things
1. What the hell is lindows?
2. What the hell is Lycoris
3. Why does Lycoris's icons look like windows icons
4. What advantage do they provide over my current setup of Gnome2 and Redhat 7.1?
5. and why are these two going to same the linux desktop?
Sorry i know i should look this stuff up but i am to tired this morning, please shed the light. thanks
First, you have to know, not fear, know that someday you are going to die
I remember one of the big things they claimed the first time around was that the network config would easily let you share your internet connection through the Lycoris box. But it turned out not to be the case, you had to go manually edit some files. (fortunately they had a pointer to a decent howto, but not the same as click-and-share).
So, does it work "correctly" now?
And my Karma Whoring for the day:
it's probably pronounced "Licorice". Some people like Licorice, other's don't.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the Metric system down?
We do, We do.
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do.
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes a star?
We do, we do.
Who robs kingfish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar Night?
We do, WE DO!
With my dying breath, I curse Zoidberg!
As I have said before, my wife and I have moved to using SuSE 8.0 exclusively in the house, we have NO windows products. My wife is visually impaired so this is not a move we would make lightly. We use KDE 3.01, Mozilla and KMail amongst others. For us it is great. My wife particularly likes the zooming function with Mozilla.
Linux may not be fully alive on the desktop, to get there it requires people to stop talking about it, drop Windows and get on with it. As far as games go, I have a copy of dungeonkeeper that I would love to get running, I will just have to be patient!
As far as "Windows clone" distros go, we are not interested. This would be a move back to the propriatory software that we are deliberately moving away from.
I can't see this stuff appealing to corporates either. Will linux run my windows apps? The answer should remain "No", far better than "Maybe". In terms of support "Maybe" is a real non-starter.
Huh? Linux does X.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I don't understand it. Everyone constantly says that Microsoft does everything wrong and lately there seems to have been endless breast beating about the absence of Linux on the desktop as a viable alternative. Lycoris may not be the best distro for the experienced user but that's the point! Ask yourself this - if you Grandmother had to use Linux would she be able to use your distro? Could she use Lycoris'? Lycoris may be noddy but if that is what it takes to enable the average user to be productive quickly on Linux then great! Lycoris' success can only be good for Linux as a whole so show some support!
Should give Lindows a run for its money. Who says Linux is dead on the desktop? ;-)"
Only the KDE Nay-saysers
I am tired of the FUD. it's flying from both sides now and it is stupid.... STOP IT!
And you continue to spread the FUD - you were unable to make your point without mentioning Microsoft 18 times.
Here is the truth - sit 80% of the general population in front of a Linux desktop (KDE or Gnome, it doesn't matter) and ask them to do their daily work. Its very difficult, because bad things can happen, and usually do. A process might hang, or the printer might not be working, or the network goes down. For those of us who are Linux literate, its very easy to pop up a command line and fix the problem - but its as familiar as brain surgery to my fiance. Face it - the linux desktop is developed for geeks (because its geeks that wrote it). It just doesn't adapt to the other 80%.
And the other 80% is the group that decides if Linux is dead on the desktop, because they are the important market. It does not matter what your average geek thinks about some new electronic toy, it only matters what the average person on the street thinks.
linux cant die because it can't be killed... that's the great part of open source..
Linux != desktop. You've been living in Microsoft land too long.
But to end on an on topic note - I really like the looks of the Lycrois desktop - heres hoping that its as easy to use as it looks.
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
The true measure of the quality of a user interface... the airbrushed icons.
Is there enough ground here for M$ to through a lawsuit at them?
When i was looking at some the screenshots i have to admit i thought i was looking at XP.
First, you have to know, not fear, know that someday you are going to die
For starters, it is an apples and pears comparison. It would be better to ignore any machine that is running the OS it came installed with - just measure those machines where people have actively sought out a newer operating system.
Even then - the amount of advertising spent by Microsoft and Mac - together with secondary advertising from all the magazines hyping the various OS upgrades could also distort the picture.... and by far outweigh the amount of advertising for Linux distributions. Has anyone seen a main stream advert for Linux that isn't about using it as a server OS?
However, in recent times we are seeing much more attention on Linux as a desktop. Four years ago the question would have been "is Linux dead?" Now it is simply accepted that Linux has a place in the OS landscape. So the fact that the question "is the Linux desktop dead?" is being asked is perhaps signifcant in itself.
Finally, we seem to have an increasing number of "pure play" linux as desktop operating systems - Lycoris being just one example... Lindows being another. How many were there two years ago?
Of course, as I am quite happily using Linux and a Desktop Operating System - and each day it gets better, means that it isn't dead - it might only just have been born!
Three cheers for Lycoris - they look to have done a very good job.
sit 80% of the general population in front of a Linux desktop (KDE or Gnome, it doesn't matter) and ask them to do their daily work. Its very difficult, because bad things can happen, and usually do.
and the EXACT SAME THING HAPPENS TO WINDOWS.
first I have sat many many in a corperate setting in front of a linux box.. Most people touch it daily and in fact a large number of off the street people touch it. they use it and ask what it is becasue it looks nice and was easy to use..
It is a redhat 7.2 install with KDE. it is used as a broadband internet demo kiosk.. Kids were constantly trashing the windows box. so I replaced it with a linux box. hasn't been hacked or trashed cince and MANY MANY people use it easily. I cheated... I changed the Mozilla head to the dorky Sweeping E..
so I have sat down 80% of the population.. and they find it no differnt to them than Microsoft.
so what's your next point?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
--linux cant die because it can't be killed... that's the great part of open source.. --
Yes, it can if M$ or someone else manages to get a law passed banning it.
Check out this link.
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03797.html
I think this makes a good point and highlights a split in the Linux community that not every insider seems to recognize. Maybe as an outsider (Mac-user at home, Win2K at work), I can make the point.
The Linux community, as I see it, is broken into two factions:
Lycorix and Lindows are both aimed at the second group. They want to increase marketshare at all costs and as such, want to reduce the barrier to entry to nil. The first group is more supported by Gentoo and the other distros which can be compiled at install time in all ways to be precisely alligned to your specific setup. Most distros try to please both factions equally.
Which faction is right? Neither and both, probably. MacOS X taught the Mac-heads like me that change is good in an effort to increase marketshare, but that it is important not to surrender the essentials. Of course, all of life is a balancing act and no two people agree on the right balance. But if you can find it, it is a holy grail. Don't be too quick to blast efforts like Lycorix. They may be too far on one side, but in the end, they may move the middle and give Linux a direction which benefits both sides of the aisle.
But seriously, Linux on the desktop isn't dead. Just struggling. But it holds it's own as a server which suits me (and I suspect a lot of people) just fine.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Bullshit! First, it appears your copy of Linux isn't even ready for spell checking. As someone that maintains a "Corporate Desktop" environment, I can tell you Linux is not ready and not even close. A pipe dream of yours.
As much as I hate Microsoft Windows, it is blows Linux off the map when it comes to corporate desktop computing. When I have problems, I have access to the latest, professional information instead of working with a HOWTO that some guy wrote three years ago after doing copious amounts of bong hits in his college dorm or trying to dissect information from a mailing list involved in a flame war over a memory pointer. You cannot plop the average corporate drone in front of a Linux Desktop machine and expect immediate productivity. You might get away doing that with Mac OS X since everyone and their mother has copied the original Mac OS GUI. Cost is not a factor if the employees are able to generate more income using the computer than the cost of the computer, software, training and electricity that it uses. Even if the operating system, hardware and software is free, if the employee cannot get work done, that is an expensive computer to the employer. While there are many software packages available for Linux, none of them have the polish and quality of the typical Windows package available. Almost good enough is not good enough. And we could go on and on about the limitations of Linux on the desktop in a corporate environment but Slashdot has a finite level of storage.
Don't let your zealotry cloud your judgement. Linux is ready for the Corporate Environment, not on the desktop but in the server closet serving and protecting those Windows Desktops.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
I tried out Lycoris a while ago when I was exploring other distros. I was really pleased with the overall experience. Generally user friendly, clean interface, network browser worked well for me, and the forums on the company web site were very friendly and helpful. All in all, I think Lycoris is probably the best Linux desktop available for an average [windows] computer user (not the average linux user that is).
My only gripe was that so much software I'm used to finding on a unix-like OS was simply missing. Unless you knew better, you ended up after the initial install with out a compiler or make or anything to roll your own software. This of course became a hastle when wanted to install new software later.
My point is, Lycoris is NOT for the linux power user out there (or maybe even average linux user), but then, it isn't targeted to be. For it's target audience, I think Lycoris makes an excellent choice of a Linux desktop (although, one might wonder how much of such an audience exists).
Who said Freedom was Fair?
"because its geeks that wrote it"
As opposed to the farm hands that write code for microsoft??
you're all figments of my deranged imagination
didnt apple squash all the people from making themes based on their gui asthetic look and feel. Seems to me that microsoft could just squash this if they anted to due to the XP look-a-like.
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
Jebus... If you're going to quote The Simpsons, at least do it right:
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do.
Who leaves the Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do.
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do! We do.
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do.
But it's kind of obvious that most people have a tendency to standardize on one particular application that they get comfortable with to perform a given task. You don't think that Wordperfect is a completely incapable word processor do you? Of course you don't. It's a nice program for writing BUT most people have M$ Word (or it's bastard cousin in MS Works) lodged firmly in their minds when they get ready to type up a document and that's why Wordperfect is barely registering a pulse these days. Same thing goes for every single other type of application that you could say "a majority of people use".
There is an obvious bridge that Linux on the desktop needs to cross in order to not be "dead on the desktop" and a lot of the people who love it now will bemoan the state of things if and when it comes to pass. The 10,000 programs that get dropped on a new user are going to have to be pared down to a handful of front runners for "most people".
I like the often repeated suggestion of having a standard, basic, newbie, whatever install that does this and the alternative install that gives you the whole enchilada.
That would go a long way towards getting things pointed in the right direction.
But it's a moot point anyway because whatever gets done with Linux for the desktop OSX will have done it first and in all likelyhood done it better. At least from the average person/user perspective.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
MacOS X taught the Mac-heads like me that change is good in an effort to increase marketshare, but that it is important not to surrender the essentials
But there is one very important point in that. It was a sweeping change. there was no choice. Sure you can sit back and continue to use MAC-OS9.x but when you buy a new Mac next year what will come on it? it's a forced change. Apple will not forever maintain 9.x and 10.x to offer both to the masses.. they chose 10, you will use 10 or use the unsupported old OS.
Linux has multiple directions.. I use Slackware because I like the nuts and bolts. I use Redhat in corperate because it has the ease of sliding in place of NT easily and without fuss. it doesn't even disrupt the users productivity. and I use BSD on my critical Firewall and SQL server here.. All co-existing with the W2K machines happily... (Yes, linux boxes are acting as the PDC and BDC for the W2K stuff.. and that will go away as soon as I can get Wine to run the last vertical app we have here.) The changes I am implimenting are a choice.. we could have started the change to ALL Mac's in the office.. but we chose the cheapest route that offer's the lowest liability and TCO.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
*Cough* X is good because it's built based on a client-server model and is network transparent. It's awesome for home users because multiple users to one terminal/access points to one terminal are good around the home too.
The Troll mod order goes down kids, down.
...how long will walmart adopt this for their linux pcs? This looks a lot better then lindows (tho unfortunally I don't think they have wine preinstalled) and would have more of a standard welcoming base then mandrake.. they might even be able to sell these instore.. ;)
at a customer's worksite. Yesterday I took a win2k workstation, blew off the OS and installed SuSE 8.0. Then I downloaded the Citrix client for Linux and installed that and configured it for the user. Today we'll take the box to the client and put it to work.
The biggest problem we've encountered with Linux on the desktop isn't using Linux (I've used it on my desktop for years) but interfacing it with the applications that have been sold to businesses that only work with MS operating systems. This particular customer uses its main application over a Citrix server and we convinced them to give Linux a try. After all, there isn't much difference between using Citrix on a Win2k box than on a Linux box... but the websurfing will be done with Linux (Galeon)... and email with Evolution.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
I believe he was referring to installing NEW hardware and not doing a scratch install on a box.
KDE, Gnome, etc. could use a better "control panel" type tool to configure/troubleshoot new hardware additions.
I don't have experience with SuSE, but the last several RedHat distros I've used have installed much easier from scratch than windows does.
Linux is already easy to use. Linux with X and KDE or Gnome is as easy to use (maybe easier) than Win2k etc. That's not the issue.
Linux will take off on the desktop when it is dead easy to install, easy to configure, easy to add new hardware, easy to get X installed, and easy to add new software.
In my mind this implies the following:
- A separate setup procedure for home users. Their needs are different from sys admins.
- If users are dedicating the machine to Linux, don't bother them with partitioning. If sharing with Windows, give them some reasonable defaults.
- APM, Sound cards, USB, scanners, printers, modems, dial-up ISP, email, web access, and GUI all have to work out of the box with minimal intervention on the part of the user.
- Installing new software can't put users in shared library hell.
When these things happen, Linux will become usable by the average user. Not before.
Maybe Lycoris has all this figured out. But I didn't see it on their web site the last time I looked. They're still showing off their GUI. Which, as far as I'm concerned, indicates they don't understand the real issue.
My other Slashdot ID is much lower.
The last "DeskTop" Linux i used was Corel Linux, and lets c where did that end up to be...
to me its just another cd lying somewhere under that pile oc cd's over there...
That doesnt mean that KDE and Gnome are not doing a fascinating Job, no, they are truly amazing, but i think that a "DeskTop" linux needs some more time, and a different approach...
The lunatic is in my head
Ok, so what we have here is a combination of windows style icons on the desktop and a modified KDE looking 'start bar'
Is it supposed to 'win over windows users' ?
Somehow, I very much dought it's going to succeed.
Joe-User: "cool, so what's this nice cheap desktop thingy do ? - can I play games ?"
Sales-guy: "Sure you can - loads of them ?"
Joe-User: "So I can play Warcraft III on it ?"
Sales-guy: "Er, not sure, have to find out about that..."
Joe-User: "So will my copy of Office 2000 work with it ?"
Sales-guy: "Er, not sure, have to find out about that..."
Ad infinitum...
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Look, this thing pretty much copies the looks of XP period. I agree, that to get folks to switch it needs to have the general flow of windows i.e. - a "start" button, similar task bars, search disk contents, etc. But NOT try to LOOK exactly like it.
I don't think the interface to the Windows OS was ever something people complained about
wrong!
i for one have been complaining about it since 95. and i think it just keeps getting worse. i actually liked 3.1 better as the desk top. i know kinda sick.
but i favorite desk top of all time is still os/2 warp.
1. A polished desktop environment (two, actually)
That both lag behind the target and even farther behind the real leader in the catagory, OSX
2. Solid productivity apps
That due to marketing from the 800lb gorilla and the considerable lead they have in this area no one wants to use outside of the faithful.
3. Good support for multimedia
That again lags behind the target. Unless you can match or exceed the ability that the average Windows user has to either just click and open darned near anything they want or at the most go get the plugin to do so you aren't there yet.
4. An amazing Web browser (or several, depending on taste and definition)
Granted. In this one area things are right with the world. Still it should be understood that when you are hanging in there by one thin thread it's simple enough to cut it. All it would take would be one well placed "enhanced standard" to put this right back to lagging behind the established leader.
Easy point-and-click installation
Not from someones point of view who has spent the last few years installing programs in Windows or Mac OS. Even Red Carpet would draw a baffled "Huh?" from them.
GUI admin tools
Finally. Thank God!
I really do agree with you that things have come miles from where we were but the odds are so long and the lead is so great that it's a little overwhelming if you think about it too much. The lead isn't so much in the software but rather in the mind. Being better isn't going to be enough but I think it might be all this movement can manage. Not shabby by any means but changing minds is going to take some help and a different approach. A fumble or two from MS might also be needed.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
I can hand my mother a copy of windows and a PC and she could probably install it, she cant do RH7.3. Linux is getting there but its not for the average user yet.
I find it very interesting that people would declare Linux on the desktop dead when it seems it is just barely begun life.
Consider, for example, the difference between a person in a developing country (say Thailand for example) and a person in the inner-city in America.
The person in the inner-city has, on the surface, a hugely better life - easy access to clean water, health care, they probably own a TV, eat three meals a day (I won't go into the fat content of those meals...) and they might even own a car.
But, this person sees the wealth all around them. They have always been poorer than their SUV driving suburban neighbors and recognize that their quality of life has not changed much.
The Thai person grew up in a time when no one they knew owned anything more than a few water buffalo. Tap water (if they have a tap in the house) is undrinkable, electricity is still spotty and paved roads are still years away. This person may even have memories of famine when they were children. However, due to the rising economy, this person now lives in a nice house with a tin roof (thatched roofs, although pretty also make a great home for rats which carry the plague) and might even own a motorcycle. Compared to his childhood, he is styling .
Although our Thai friend's life is still much harder than the poor American's, it is much better than in the recent past and improving. He has never known or seen the wealth his American friend has.
Having never had dominance of the desktop and only now beginning to penetrate this market (much like our Thai friend discovering the thrill of racing his shiny new motorcycle), Linux has nowhere to go but up.
It is all in your point of view...
The problem is that the 5% that is not identified cannot be installed or configured easely later on. Installing most distros is very easy as long as nothing goes wrong. As soon as something unexpected show up (or something expected doesn't show up) it's back to text files, howtos and command line again...
A question to you, how the hell can any M$ person complain about taking the look and feel of another OS, they ripped so much off of apple its sick.
Quite frankly, I'm in the category that immediately responds with, "Why are they making it look like Windows?" But seriously... so what? I mean, beside all the other possible issues with this distro and others, why is its aesthetic similarities to another OS a factor worthy of deciding whether or not it is a viable distro? So many Linux users (including myself) use Linux because they want to do things their way. I bet you could change icons if you wanted to. So, when people who want to do it "their way" start complaining about the defaults, it's a contradiction. "Your way" then becomes "KDE's way" or "GNOME's way" -- not Your way. Yes, it's just appearance, but I'm tired of the religious devotion to being as dissimilar to Windows as possible instead of honest focus on efficiency, effectiveness, and pliability of an Operating System.
But what's wrong with looking exactly like it? I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if it gets people to switch and slowly gets them acclimated to the Linux. So it looks the same, big deal! People who like that will use it, others will go with RH or Debian or something else that they'd rather use! I really don't think the look matters that much, it's the underlying pieces that matter.
One of the main areas which Linux (and OSS in general) suffers is marketing. Unfortunatly the desktop computer buying population's opinions are formed from what they see and hear. Currently they are bombarded by MacOS and Windows adverts, and unsuprisingly they demand Mac's and WinTel boxes and hence have there desktops...
.. Applications can all be digitally downloaded and installed ...
There isn't a good solution to this, OSS companies cannot compeate with money the like Apple & MS do.
On a side note marketing like this doesn't help either:
Lindows.com pricing follows the broadband model
mmm...
Or maybe I overestimate peoples ability to filter bullshit.
Linux is too hard - agreed (for crashing systems)
v==hal if
For an OS that everyone hates, you linux goofballs sure to imitate it an awful lot.
Example, I can sit on my PC at home and with nothing but VPN connection and a base Linux/X installation and have everything available to me that I do at work. Beyond that I can have a 486/32mb Ram/1gb HD do it. If I really need to access the windows side of our network I can use rdesktop to interface with a win2k terminal server.
On a windows box I would need either VNC (kind of nice for the price, but very limited in it use) or Hummingbird ($expensive$ and memory hog). Or I could use the terminal server client to access the windows side (which of course I have to pay for).
Is X perfect? no, I have had more trouble learning it than anything else on the Unix side (I am a n3wb) but I am sure some really smart guys somewhere built a gui for that.
Baseless, what I have seen of OSX (aqua is the interface I believe) reminds me nothing of windows.
If Lycoris was an OS X look-alike and not a Windows look-alike, Steve Jobs would be suing the hell outta this company. We all remember the themes stuff don't we?
>Tap water (if they have a tap in the house) is undrinkable,
>electricity is still spotty and paved roads are still years away.
Hey, but the sign in front of the water department on Prachacheun Road (in Bangkok) says "Namprapagindai," or "You can drink the tap water." Of course no one does or seems to believe them, but that's another matter.
From your analogy, does that mean that you could use Linux on the desktop, but no one believes that you can? I think so, and so do many others here in Thailand, which is why I'm taking the RH7.2 based Thai distro "Linux TLE" and merging it with the RH7.2 based thin client distro "K12LTSP." Maybe we can change the piracy rate in Thailand.
Put identity in the browser.
One look at the Screen Shots and its obvious where they got their design ideas.. XP. How does linux ever hope to be ANYTHING if all we do is duplicate the work already done? The idea is to, gasp, INNOVATE. Can't we do better than an XP knockoff?
I looked, but was unable to see where the improvements that they have made to certain packages are advertised. I understand that they don't necessarily have to make these easily available, but I would like to at least know if they're contributing to the community in any way.
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
Did anyone find the link to download Lycoris for free?
Or is it really paid-only?
Operating systems never are used.
Applications are.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
The one thing that drives me crazy on my linux box is how inconsistant cutting and pasting is. Is that just the way it is because of all the different toolkits? Is there any way to make this work better? Other than that I like KDE way better than windows and there are many features I miss even when on OS X.
A question to you, how the hell can any M$ person complain about taking the look and feel of another OS, they ripped so much off of apple its sick.
So, what you're telling me that - because it's Linux-oriented - two wrongs DO make a right? Or are you just being as narrow-minded and two-faced as any MS zealot would be?
UNIX: Find it, fsck it, forget it.
No, It's a smart man's windows. Besides, if you hate KDE so much, why are you running Suse?
(Happily running KDE on Slack...)
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
I know its heresy to even mention the two in the same sentence but after looking at the Lycoris website I couldn't help thinking....this is the XP version of linux! It looks great! The real question of course is, does it work? Well for things like browsing, checking email and playing preinstalled games this will be great for bringing JoeUser to Linux. The fact that it looks like his current "user friendly" (read: everything hidden) Windows XP machine is a good thing. It will help him to adjust. And the automatic install for many of the most popular and useful apps will help him along until he can learn to use rpms and the like. After that however, he's pretty much lost....oh and btw he doesn't want to use the command line...EVER! Though I personally love the console, the average user considers it far beyond his comprehension to type a line of text at a prompt. One would guess that this has to do with the fact that he wouldn't know what to do if something went horribly wrong....but then he wouldn't know what to do if that happened in the GUI either. So this needs improvement. There needs to be an equivalent to windows' Install Sheild that allows the ignorant user to install with a double-click and a few "Next"s....and he won't even have to reboot :-P.
Other than the fact that JoeUser won't be able to install BonziBuddy on his new Lycoris Linux box I see that he will have a fairly smooth transition....now the hard part, getting him to WANT to switch. He's apparently got no problem paying through the nose to MS for sub-par (but ubiquituous and usually automatic-if-not-preinstalled) software, so why put work into it (even if its free). We must strive to convience the average user that it somehow benefits him to learn things all over again when he'll only be saving about $100-$200 if he buys this off the shelf. How much is the time he spends learning everything again worth to him? Sure, he'll have to pay for the next "up"grade but he'll buy a new computer by that time and it will have the latest version of his favorite (and to his knowledge, probably the only) OS available for his computer. Frankly he doesn't care about DRM or "free as in freedom" when it comes to software, because he doesn't know anywhere and "free as in beer" doesn't affect him if it takes his "free as in time" to get it working and learn how to use a new system. What we need is a seamless XP-like experience for the new home user and it looks like Lycoris gives us that, at least on the surface. Most people don't like to learn for knowledge's sake, especially not when it comes to computers...they want their magic beiger box to do what they want before they know what they want and to tell them that they like it (see windows XP) and this is what Linux needs to have preinstalled on computers from DELL and Compaq and Gateway...unfortunately MS has it's claws so deep in those companies there isn't a foothold to get. Linux on the desktop is not dead, it simply hasn't been approached from the perspective of actually giving the average user what he wants and needs: simplicity....he doesn't want to know how it works and for the most part he doesn't even care about changing from default settings (execpt to install BonziBuddy of course - please don't let anyone port this to Linux).
I say GO LYCORIS! for at least they have the right idea....and I hope they are able to implement it correctly, for the fate of linux's future may rest in their hands.
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Linux on the desktop is not dead by any means.
Clearly Microsoft wants to put out the phrase hoping that the weak of mind will believe it.
But, it is just getting started.
Lindows and Mandrake have just now shown up on the Wal-mart web site. Sure, DELL was beaten up by Gates and forced to beg off the market for now, but they will return. It may not be until the idiots at Microsoft are forced to comply with the appropriate laws, but it will happen.
How can you help?
Help distribute OpenOffice and even help promote StarOffice. Contact your local "beige box boys" and suggest they preload at least OpenOffice with every PC that goes out the door. They can even charge a few dollars extra to have it installed. Windows or linux, it does not matter. It is the benefit to the custom that will help alternative products and linux included.
If Wal-Mart can sell PCs preloaded with Mandrake and Lindows, then so can the rest of them. And, once competition knows what is expected of them, they will comply. What is gone are the days when an extra $700 of Microsoft software is bundled with each PC that sells. That is no longer necessary. And, the vendors who figure that out will get the business.
Have you compared Xandros or even the old Corel Linux with the windows explorer? Maybe you should.
Corel Linux (several years old by now) is just as easy to use as windows ever was. And, currently Xandros is taking it a bit farther. Even farther than Mandrake with its "switch screen" features. It allows the user to log on another screen without logging off the first one. And then, of course, switching back and forth between users.
Does it matter that Xandros puts out that kind of feature?
Yes, it does.
Linux will provide the platform for a whole series of very useful features. A single entity such as Microsoft simply can not and will not do so. Neither will just Mandrake. But, putting RedHat, Mandrake, Corel, eLx, Xandros, Lindows and others all into a highly competitive marketplace will greatly expand that marketplace and provide real benefits for all kinds of consumers.
Linux on the desktop is not dead. Microsoft might be.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
With all the linux gripes about how linux doen't suppport application x or game y.
:-P *) then often users will what the same setup at home because they can do some work from home with no incompatibility issues.
It got me to thinking linux might be having the same life as the old macintoshes,and PC's once did.
A linux system at work will be generally cost effective and more productive for end users. (* no games generally
IBM PC's flooded businesses with thier equipment and DOS was it and it goes from there, as well as teachers wanted mac's in their home since that is what they had in school. You can even see that today that mac still realizes the important of product placement (*maybe ?*) as mac struggles or at least gives me the impression that they are struggling against Dell for school PC real estate.
Now back to the point
Linux is and has proven it self worthy for it's place in the business world especially when it comes to servers, even as a desktop at work linux works great. Linux has an office clone for the clerical types, development tools out the wazoo for the technical people, and web/email etc for everyone. So with the previous notion if people start using it at work it will trickle on home since people have to work from home for whatever reason. Then once that starts happening, people will start demanding more of less work software and more entertaining software like games.
So really maybe linux should be a business desktop before becoming a home desktop ?
can anyone explain what the hell are they selling?
they have user licenses for sale.. for what? linux requires NO per seat licensing.. so what are they trying to pull? what is their closed/un-free add-in that brings lycoris linux into the pit?
this one thing will make sure that I reccomend against it. as it looks like nothing but REDhat 7.3 with a KDE theme added to it to make it more XPish.
Linux has a ZERO per seat license cost.. what the hell are they trying to charge $19.95 for?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I beg your forgiveness.
I was only trying to spread the joy that is Simpsons to this dark, cold place.
In my zeal, I was overly hasty and attempted to recreate the song from memory. I apologize profusely.
Thank you Sir! May I have another Sir!
With my dying breath, I curse Zoidberg!
While I agree with what you say in spirit, don't believe that Windows users have it all that easy. Lets say that you bought a machine a few months ago with Windows XP loaded on it. A BUNCH of hardware vendors didn't have drivers out yet for it. You would have had the same complaints.
My point is that everyone has this problem. Yes Linux has it more than the Macintosh and Windows, but for a FREE OS the developers do a great job.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
What's wrong... Confusion
WE know what Linux is. The average user has NO idea. By looking exactly alike, I believe it creates confusion between the two. The only thing then that they will see, is "gee-this new computer doesn't do as much as my old one". The reason they will think that is because all of the software they have doesn't work anymore. And since no one will be there to explain things to them, they will NOT assimilate to Linux, and be ready to go back to Windows.
Therefore I believe the most inportant thing in "the switch" is a good Linux OS version, NOT some cheesy Windows wannabe like this or Lindows.
My problem with the post was the slamming of an X interface tweeked to look like M$ as being proof that windows is somehow superior to Linux, its the color of the car. For a someone to say "hey you guys are copying us so much we must rule", where *US* is an OS the themselves have copied not only the look and feel but the underlying code (tcp/ip stack) of others work is moronic on its face.
so before you try to attack me as being a foaming at the mouth anti-windows person use a neuron or two and think about what I wrote.
Oh well, /. takes another victim.
Simple. It is just more trolls try to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt into the minds of other people. This prevents people from even attempting to use Linux on the desktop.
- One camp of idiots in the linux community can't seem to understand how the basic file/folder/desktop paradigm works. They says things like "don't call what people put files into a 'folder'. That's too much like windows. Call it 'directory'."
That any HCI professional would say "folder keeps consistancy with the paradigm" is irrelevant to idiots such as these.
- Another camp of idiots, the polar opposite of the first, wants to blindly carbon-copy microsoft. They can't seem to understand that many designs that Microsoft came up with were dead wrong from a GUI design perspective and that Microsoft has been constantly criticized by the HCI community for implementing them in the first place. Multi-row tabs, window-in-window MDI, billions of tiny, cryptic, unlabeled toolbar buttons that are too small to have fast access time with a mouse are just some of the many skeletons in microsofts UI design closet. That an HCI professional would say "adaptive menus like the kind in office 2000 can be easily proven to be a stupid idea" is irrelevant to idiots such as these.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
Does Windows support multiple desktops? Does windows allow for embedding and creating new menus in taskbar? Does windows have a Kasbar that shows thumbnails of all running apps? Does windows allow for the collapsing the taskbar with a single click like KDE (or Gnome)? Does windows allow for shading an app like KDE (or most modern *nix window managers? Who had thumbnail support for images first? Windows or KDE/Gnome?
Your assessment is baseless and foolish, but not unexpected from an A/C...
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Even the less auto-configured Slackware detects your network card nowadays.
Video cards are a bit different beast. Any video card that supports VESA will work in Linux (X Window system) with a framebuffer mode (That's like 99% of cards). If you want 3d graphics, then you can get drivers from most manufacturers that really actually matter. nVidia, ATi, PowerVR... Etc. If the rest don't work, then that is the manufacturer's problem. The Linux OpenGL implementations are *awesome*, and very fast. nVidia uses the exact same driver model for Linux that they use in Windows, so the drivers are always up to date. PowerVR will be doing this soon also.
USB mice (and other devices) work fine. USB mice use generic drivers, and are detected by the installers. USB 2.0 has been implemented into the kernel.
I don't know of any major sound chip that does not work in Linux. There are at least three types of sound drivers available. Kernel drivers, ALSA, and Commercial OSS. If someone doesn't like the kernel or ALSA implementations, they can always swing $15-$30 to opensound.com, and get EXCELLENT drivers that completely make use of the best features of a soundcard, including rear speaker support and a real-time software multi-channel mixer (like DirectX uses).
Linux distributions like Suse, Lycoris, Mandrake, and Red Hat do all of the guesswork for you.
Frankly, if you have to pick out your network card manually, then you have one jankie peice of hardware.
Nothing personal, but I attribute the "lack of driver" claims to people's continuing ignorance of the Linux OS.
Yes, but can she install all of the proper drivers without your help?
Video?
Sound?
VIA 4-in-1 drivers?
Patches and hotfixes (for Windows)?
Frankly, if she cannot, then she shouldn't be installing *ANY* OS. Without the right drivers, it won't be reliable, and will be more prone to problems.
Linux has these problems too, but generally the distributions ship with the best drivers available at the time, and with many of them, most of the installation is fairly automated.
... You *must* get your spelling checker fixed. ..I assume you meant "...a huge box of beagles". Last time I tried this nobody got any work done for 3 days.
Okay, see the bolded portion of the quote? Alright, now, turn your head to the left. D'ya see it? Sort of a smiling face, winking?
sheesh.
I use Mandrake (and I've used Linux since '92 - like many others I don't like to/don't have time to play system administrator).
The problem with all the junk it installs is so many things depend on them. It's like "Ok, I use gnome so I don't need KDE", but a bunch of tools you might want depend on KDE, so you can't uninstall it. So you say "Ok, I'll just use KDE" and discover even more things depend on gnome. So you say "well, I'm a programmer, but I don't need python", and a bunch of things depend on it.
I know it's not quite the same as word processors and browsers, but these things are quite heavy and are all required. Pretty annoying.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
OK, well we can disagree; either way, I personally don't care what it looks like as long as people aren't forced into Microsoft products.
then they need to rename it or explain that. you aren't buying a user license. but you are buying a support contract.
It's mis-marketing that causes most of the confusion and problems with a product.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Might have missed it but all i see is 'purchase' from first glance..
Another all commercial distro or is there a personal use freebee?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
True but I'm not really bitching about lack of hardware support (I can live with that), what bother's me is that all the attempt at "easy Linux" (easy installation and GUI) have all the same pitfalls : they are really nice looking front ends but don't go much further. Installation is easy AS LONG AS you install it on an "ordinary" PC with ordinary needs. KDE and Gnome are ok AS LONG AS you don't need to change anything that is hardware or system related.
In shorts, "easy Linux" distro are fine to make dumb terminals (a PC in a library you use to surf only) but all administration/maintenance tasks, even the most common ones, require you to leave the friendly GUI and venture into the darkest recesses of the OS. The problem is that any regular PC user, even my grandmother, needs sometimes to install a scanner or change her desktop screen refresh or resultion. And when that times comes, she discovers that Linux is not as user friendly as advertised. For comparison, I was amazed that installing a scanner on XP required me to plug the USB port and... that's all no drivers required, not even a single click necessary and it was available in Photoshop straight away.
I'm not particularly fond of Linux for desktop use. I installed Lycoris but noticed that it wouldn't work with my USB mouse, and that it appeared to select the wrong graphics driver making everything dead-sluggish. I then gave the latest Red Hat a try and noticed it has improved a lot since I last tried it a few years ago. Not only did it have a nice graphical install, it also recognized my USB mouse and selected the appropriate graphics driver without any hitches. Very nice. I run it now on my second box.
Just for reference Windows XP does have a utility to show you thumbnails (as part of the power pack) of running apps that can pop-up on tabbing AFAIK. I was told this only a few days ago and since I refuse to load that rubbish I will never find out myself. I myself find KDE far nicer looking that the glimpses I have seen of Windows XP (I think XP looks like it was designed for 5 year-olds) but thats my preference.
Is anyone at Slashdot working on an interview with the guy(s) that are responsible for PCs preloaded with Mandrake and Lindows to the marketplace at Walmart.com?
I think I can speak with a little experience, because I am right now in the transition from Windows 2000 to Debian Linux. I spent three years at a Windows-only shop, and am now working in a Linux-preferred, Mac-tolerant environment. I get tired of doing all minor maintenance tasks in xterms. It seems the only reason I start X is to use a graphical web browser and open thirty xterms. I do enjoy the terse power of the commandline, but some tasks are just easier to accomplish when there is a picture to look at. I don't want my Linux box to look like XP. I'd just like to see more lightweight GUI helper/frontends for some of the common commandline apps, mainly to have some graphical output, not dozens of hi-res icons.
Try this: Voila, two desktops running at the same time. Or: if you want to do it the other way. I'm sure Xandros has put a nice slick interface on this, but it's always been something you can do with X. I do it all the time, in fact I'm running with xfce + KDE right now.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I looked around there website, and I feel kind of blind, but I can't find a free download of it.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
My Linux desktop is alive and well. Near as I can tell, it's made of laminated particle board, and it supports my monitor and keyboard with admirable efficiency, which is most helpful when I'm working at my Linux commandline.
Oh sure, I know that's not for everyone, but I switched to Linux so I wouldn't have to do the same thing as everyone. Which is, I thought, the entire point of open source. It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever use Lycoris, but that's just me -- I might, however, install it for my wife and daughter, both of whom are quite bright, but totally disinterested in software development. And that's cool, too.
So congrats to the Lycoris folks for rolling out what looks like a polished product. More choice is always good.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
because when it comes to computers most people feel like 10 year olds! The average user wants a nice friendly screen that looks as non-technical as possible. If it looks like its going to require thought (the opposite of most cartoons) its going to be frightening to those who don't feel comfortable with the inner workings of their computer. People want a black box...a big shiny, cutesy, cartoony, drop-everthing-right-in-my-lap black box. This is why people like MacOS and the newer versions of windows. Its a psychology thing...thats why Mac was considered more user-friendly for so long (and to some extent still is) despite being much harder to work with if you want to get into the guts of your system. Linux is of course the opposite of this....lots of power and little fluff...not what the average user wants! He doesn't want control he wants ease!!!
You report, Slashdot decides
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It looks like a clone of Windows XP to me...
Im sorry, but some of this package is the most ugliest thing i've seen in a long time - its possibly the worst linux/winxp mix around in fact. Im not entirely convinced that making linux look like windows is the best of ideas. Hopefully they've not disabled themes etc so we can have it back to the default KDE3 themeage or at least something that looks nicer
Additionally a lot of the things really are just things that are part of KDE3 rather than Lycoris.
The update wizard is an amazingly good idea. I just hope that it works as well as it looks. This is definitely (in my opinion) one of the things that users will not move to linux.
The software installer?! Now we're cooking on gas! We need more of this easy stuff. Damn, it looks like XP! Installing/Uninstalling is another hellish thing to be done by the linux newbie
Recovery mode is possibly a good idea - I dont think hardened linux users will use it, but I get the feeling that this is specifically aimed at first time linux users. Although I dont really see it being much different from changing to a terminal and doing maintainance from there.
Purchase. Uck, can I download it? No. I cant therefore get it for free so i'd rather stick to another distribution.
I saw a screenshot, and my heart skip beat. I thought Linux was about choice, not advertising the same old disgusting desktop. Some say that windows users would appreciate a familiar desktop but, the people who I've converted to Linux all enjoy the different look. I really do not like the way this is gonna end up. The linux market does not have room for another commercial distro, the ones that exist have a hard enough time making money now.
Check out the lindows.com web site.
NPR has a recorded interview with Michael on the Lindows deal.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Was that your point?
Illegal acts can nix a very fine competing product?
DR-Dos suffered from illegal Microsoft acts. Microsft even paid the money to settle the Caldera case.
Desqview suffered from the Window Manager being bundled with DOS even though Deskview did not sue. Perhaps they should have?
And, OS/2 was also subject to a number of illegal moves by Microsoft including many conduct right in the face of IBM.
And, most recently the idiot Gates took the baseball bat to DELL in order to force them to drop (for now) their support of linux on the desktop.
There is no doubt that Gates thinks he is better off conducting illegal acts to hold off competition. That is why he himself engages in those illegal acts.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
For comparison, I was amazed that installing a scanner on XP required me to plug the USB port and... that's all no drivers required, not even a single click necessary and it was available in Photoshop straight away.
.
Mind you installing a SCSI scanner (or card for that matter) is not nearly so easy. . .
Nor is installing a TV tuner card (which can take well over 5 "new hardware device detected" cycles in WinXP), which while not difficult, is not exactly something that somebody who has never done it before would have any clue as on how to do. (right click on INF file, select install, notice that that does not work, add device manualy, select different INF file depending on which part of the TV Tuner card is being installed at the moment, and so forth)
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Have to agree on this one. I've never had a piece of hardware which I needed to install drivers for under Linux which worked flawlessly under Windows. There WAS a few times where I installed a piece of hardware, and while linux just said "yeah. I've got that now. Press enter to continue.", Windows asked for driver disks(or, in more painful cases, didn't.)
It's been a long time.
Almost none of my hardware is on their compatability list!
:-D
/really/ be expaned. Not to mention that if MS ever even /tried/ to setup such a system people would freak out (err, yaaah, complete knowledge of every program installed on computer? Yaaaah riiiiiight! heh. There would be a /. freakout. :D )
Then again it isn't on the Windows 2000 compatability list either.
There little software section there should
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I think you've got a decent grasp of some of Microsoft's past "foibles" but you jump to the erroneous conclusion that just because Microsoft does something dastardly that it's by definition illegal. Publicly-traded companies exist to build shareholder value at any cost. What you see as illegal is merely response to stimulus -- the cold, calculating efficiency of the predator/prey principle, but in a free market setting. For example:
DR-Dos suffered from illegal Microsoft acts.
How is that? DR-DOS suffered because they were reverse-engineering a product. This is why OS/2, Wine, and Mono couldn't / can't succeed. When someone else is setting the standard you will always be in catch-up mode and they will always be first to market.
Desqview suffered from the Window Manager being bundled with DOS even though Deskview did not sue.
DOS did not have a bundled window manager, what it had was a crummy, single-tasking quasi-GUI file manager. It was not a window manager in any sense of the word. By the time of Windows 95 and DOS/Win bundling, Desqview was many years dead. Desqview suffered because when people upgraded to DOS 6 they found that magically DV no longer ran and an obscure upgrade was needed. I'm not even sure this was illegal, just very underhanded. This offered enough time for Windows 3.0 to come out and the rest is history.
And, OS/2 was also subject to a number of illegal moves by Microsoft including many conduct right in the face of IBM.
How was anything they did illegal? OS/2 was an OS well ahead of its time but lacking any apps. Since IBM had only licensed Win3.x APIs they were again relegated to perpetually playing catch-up.
And, most recently the idiot Gates took the baseball bat to DELL in order to force them to drop (for now) their support of linux on the desktop.
How do you figure? When even John Carmack, one of the strongest Linux advocates in the world thinks there's no money in Linux (games) on the desktop, why-oh-why do you think Dell should support it out of pure-hearted good nature? While I share your frustration I think you need to take a strong dose of reality. We don't live in a world where being "good" wins the war.
IMHO Microsoft's greatest sins were in the early '90's when they would release a new DOS version and use the proceeds to fund their next Office upgrade which would fund their next DOS version ad infinitum. By leveraging these two products against each other they guaranteed nobody could win. Sadly no one else seems to remember this. Or what about the Office price wars when Office for Windows 2.0 was crap but it sold for a fraction the price of the competition? Microsoft could afford it by releasing new DOS versions and reaping the profits by the dumptruck-load. But Borland, Lotus, and Novell couldn't afford to match those price cuts and where are their office packages now? People always seem to focus on the wrong things. Penfield-Jackson had the penalty right, he was just a stupid ass who shot himself in the foot.
Microsoft paid Caldera $150 million to avoid a possible judgment on the matter.
And, yes, I am a lawyer so I can have a legal opinion that what Microsoft did was in fact a violation of the Federal antitrust laws.
The Microsoft windows manager, "Windows" was bundled with DOS to foreclose such products as Deskview. Windows was no more than KDE or GNOME is today. In fact, it still is.
Illegal bundling does in fact preclude competition from markets. That is "why" Microsoft engages in those acts.
And, yes, I am a lawyer and do have a legal opinion that bundling a windows manager is illegal tying. It is illegal tying just like the browser is illegal tying. Do we have the final court decision on the browser tying? No. Not yet. The AOL law suit is still pending.
Look, if Gates the idiot did not think that beating up on DELL was not necessary, why was he so stupid to engage in the act?
You can claim that you disagree with the need for Gates to do what he did, but Gates himself decided (at Ballmers suggestion) to get involved and stop DELL from promoting linux desktops.
You can create all the false ideas you want, but what they did is what matters. And, if your false stories were true, they would not have had to do anything at all. So, Gates and Baller disagree with you. Not me.
I only think what they did was illegal and stupid.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
You are grossly misinformed and should be embarassed to post such poorly-researched comments.
The Microsoft windows manager, "Windows" was bundled with DOS to foreclose such products as Deskview.
Your recollection of history is blatently false. Windows and DOS were not bundled until many years after Desqview was dead and Windows had a monopoly of the "OS" market. The fact is that Desqview 2.0 was released in 1987 whereas Win95 (the bundling of DOS and Windows) didn't take place until 1995. Bundling the products was the only thing that made sense and was in a sense the means to discontinue DOS 6.
In fact, neither the DOJ nor the courts have ever found fault with Microsoft for "bundling" DOS and Windows, bundling didn't even become a factor until Netscape's demise. For example, the consent decree of 1994 makes no mention of bundling products and is completely devoted to licensing practises. While you're free to your own fiction, the facts, the DoJ, and the courts tend to disagree with you.
Gates himself decided (at Ballmers suggestion) to get involved and stop DELL from promoting linux desktops
References, please! I hope you work differently in court because I certainly make no judgements without some sort of evidence.
Oh, where are the mod points when you need them.
My good man, I agree with you SO entirely. I've been ranting about those points regularly since I switched my girlfriend to Linux (and more precisely, Mandrake) and analyzed her reactions to the system.
There's also one point you may have overlooked: if we want hardware makers to write device drivers, then we need to make writing drivers WAY easier. There are efforts underway (like the ALSA architecture for sound devices), but we're still not there yet. If you want to, say, write a driver for an USB tablet, then you'll need to 1) modify the HID kernel driver slightly, so that it won't get hold of the tablet and try to use it with the standard HID-mouse driver; 2) add the kernel module for your tablet; and 3) add the X driver for the XInput support of your tablet. And I leave out the hassle that is getting X configured right. How the heck is an USB tablet vendor supposed to write a generic Linux driver in those conditions?
This said, it might be that you don't give Lycoris enough credit. I haven't tested it (can you download the distro from their site, BTW?), but if you look at those screenshots, they've got 1) a hardware installer utility, 2) a software installer utility, and 3) a X configuration utility. So it might be that they have figured out the real issues after all. We can hope, anyway. I wish them good luck. We'll all need it.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
But grafting wings to a tank does not make it a fighter jet. I never understood why the open source crowd decided to hop on the Unix horse. Proprietary Unix is no better than proprietary Windows, or proprietary Mac OS. So why do we persist in insisting that Unix should be the basis for a desktop OS?
In case you haven't noticed Mac OS X is as Unix as it gets. Apple were smart enough not to reinvent the wheel, they put hubcaps on.
POKE 36879,8
Microsoft paid $150 million to avoid the DOS Windows bundling from getting to the judge.
Desqview did not sue. But, they could have. Suggesting Microsoft only illegally bundled the windows manager after Desqview was dead is your opinion. And, may not matter much. Besides, illegal acts are not excused simply because a competitor is on the way out. Rather illegal acts are then unnecessary.
It is just like the idiots who beat up on DELL. If the false claim that Gates and Ballmer did not need to beat on Dell were true, then they would not have to do so, would they? Do you really think a guy like Gates and Ballmer act needlessly? They do not think so. So, when you claim DELL was going to axe linux anyway, you make Gates and Ballmer look to be fools.
As for your suggestion that the courts disagree with my opionions, perhaps you should read the court decision more carefully. But, do not read the decisions that use faulty jurisprudance.
The consent degree you like to mention was designed to prevent IE from being a required purchase with the OS. Perhaps you would like to explain to others what you think it was supposed to do? If not that?
Microsoft was not convicted of violating it because that issue was never properly litigated. The large DOJ and States case replaced it.
As for the monopoly in the OS, that was true for a long time. And, whether Microsoft got the monopoly legally or not has not been litigated. The new monopoly in browers is being litigated in the AOL law suit.
As for DELL:
Microsoft documents apparently have something to reveal.
It does not sound like lack of demand had anything to do with it.
Sounds more and more like additional illegal activity.
The following is taken from the opening statement by the States.
1. Microsoft held a series of meetings with Dell in regard to linux
2. Meetings involved both Gates and Ballmer
3. Microsoft does not sell a linux distro
4. Microsoft needs to remind Dell why it is smart to partner with Microsoft
5. Dell feels a need to discuss linux with Microsoft? (does he need permission from the godfather?)
6. Ballmer is urged to make certain that Dell understands it is untenable for Dell to be marketing linux
7. Ballmer suggests that Gates give Dell somewhat of a hard time (Ballmer suggests that Gates brown nose Dell)
8. Dell in June of 2001 informs Microsoft (the crime family) that Dell has canceled their linux business unit
9. Does not smell like lack of market demand at all
Is this testimony? No, just statements from the States based upon Microsoft documents.
But, does this sound like a lack of marketing demand nixed Redhat on Dell desktops? Not to me it does not.
It sounds like Dell thinks that Microsoft Corporation has to approve any contracts that Dell might want to sign with others. (Or, they have to cancel if Microsoft does not approve.)
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
I installed Red Hat 7.3, with my mom's permission, on her machine. She had installed Red Hat 5.2 a few years ago, which she amusingly refers to as the "Giant Penguin" because she couldn't get XWindows configured correctly and so she had a 320x200 desktop with a giant penguin the only thing visible.
She likes her KDE desktop right now. That said, I asked her what she didn't like. Too MUCH choice was one of the first things she mentioned. She has 4 CD-Burning programs, none of which work correctly for everything she wants to do - so I spent this weekend uninstalling and leaving her with what I thought of as best-of-class apps for their particular job. And of course KSokoban which she is addicted to. She doesn't WANT 45 programs that all purport to do the same thing, it's too confusing when she's trying to learn just the basics.
The other big problem was learning to install software. She gets confused and downloads source tarballs..or gets an RPM but then doesn't know what to do with it. Double-click installs that could apt-get all their dependencies would be GREAT.
And thirdly, lack of apps...I'm talking end-user apps. Landscaping software because she wants to redesign the yard - had to boot into Windows to do that.
The main reason why Linux has not been successful on the desktop is that there is less functionality available through Linux compatible business software than in Windows software.
The simple presence of a GUI is not what makes an OS a desktop OS. MS-DOS was once the main "desktop" OS, even though it didn't have a GUI. The Macintosh OS was on fewer desktops than MS-DOS, even though it had a quality GUI. The difference was the amount of functionality available through MS-DOS business applications. If many highly functional business programs were available for Linux instead of Windows, Linux would lead on the desktop.
No data, no cry
please. Beyond the recompiling the kernel bit (which is a bit old) I think I have it right on. I've run Linux off and on since about 1996 or so, unfortunately of late it's more off than on - 'bout 3 years or so but...anyways, I recently installed RH7.3 on an HP pavillion machine. Redhat refused to recognize my 3com network card. I searched about and finally realized that I needed an entry in /etc/modules.conf for the 3c509x module. This highlights my comment about the "different approach" - in windows you use the gui tools to do much the same thing. It also illustrates my "mummy" comment as such: 1) the fsck'ing driver was already there but wouldn't load up. 2) Everyone calls these bits of software drivers. Couldn't we call the damn file "drivers.conf" even though we're loading modules? Anyways, my .02
well put, if a bit vitriolic...:)
Truce, we are both on the right side
It just erks me when a release, in my opinion, pays homage to Windows by modeling thier GUI after it.
We recently replaced 14 users here that had Win95 to RH 7.2. I made the mistake of not realizing that these folks (even though I told them this was not Microsoft Windows) had no idea that apps like "Spinner" and RealPlayer would no longer work.
Folks really have no idea what an OS is, these same people were also unaware that Macs cannot run Win apps either. So I purchased CrossOver, and installed RealPlayer, and other Win stuff (now of course, they are completely confused).
Despite our disagreement, I bet you agree with this - that as of right now, unless a Linux guru is involved, to show the user the differences, and reasons why Linux is better, the 'switch' is highly likely to result in an immediate switch back.
Unfortunately the major distros just don't have the dollars it would take to educate the general public on the benefits of Linux, and to the vast extent M$ hijacks their wallets.
Yeah I hear ya, and I agree. OK, truce! :)
I've been reading sentences like "all the faults you mentioned will be fixed in a year or two" for what's starting to close in on a decade. What I wouldn't give for that to have been the case. We might have a ballgame here then.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
But not homosexual women?
And of course, as every red-blooded x86-racing straight male knows, women and homosexuals have no business using a computer....
- MFN
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
Actually, Microsoft employed individuals to use false identification to bad mouth OS/2 and favor Microsoft. That was in the early days.
More recently Microsoft charged IBM a higher price because they would not cease competing with their office products and OS/2.
The latter issue could form the basis for another major antitrust law suit brought by IBM against Microsoft. Will they file? I do not make that call.
But, I have been calling for AOL and SUN to file their private law suit for years. And, just recently they have done so. Both AOL and SUN will also win their respective law suits. As will BE.
Other law suits may include those from RedHat and other linux distributors. That law suit could actually be a class action law suit.
But, since you refuse to give your name your post is of little merit anyway. I would not use my name if I did not believe what I wrote either.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Not that anyone will read this, but just as an update:
We installed the Linux workstation and I configured a username and password that was the same as the employee had used on her Win2k box. I used SuSE 8.0 and selected Gnome as the default GUI. We took off most of the desktop icons, and took most of the launchers out of the launch panel. I made a new launcher for Galeon and gave it a "globe" Icon to make it more resemble what she's used to for a browser.
I also made a launcher for their major business application (a medical database) and gave it their normal description so that when she mouses over the panel the familiar name will show up. This was really a launcher to the Citrix client which was set up to automatically log her into the NT4 server and present a full-screen desktop of her own desktop (from her user profile in NT).
There was no printer attached to her workstation so I didn't configure that. I did configure sound but didn't put any icons or launchers for a cd player. In fact, she doesn't have speakers on her desk so that was not used, apparently, in her old environment.
This is an experiment to see whether a MS-centric operation can be moved to a Linux environment. We plan to slowly introduce the employees to Abiword and OpenOffice (I demonstrated both of these for them yesterday) and Evolution for email.
We had an intern with us during the install who had never seen a Linux box before (going to a local community college which is *only* MS). He was amazed that I could turn what he thought was only a server machine into such an effective and useful desktop. He was further amazed when I demonstrated some of the more arcane features of Linux to him (sending email using the local box smtp server without having to go to the ISP's mail server, for instance).
All in all, a most interesting experience for all of us.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
Just to keep the record scrupulously accurate, I tried my Lycoris HD yesterday and had no further problems with connectivity. Lycoris does indeed rock. Scoff all you want about the "toy" nature of the distro...I strongly believe the folks who are building Lycoris are doing some important stuff which will trickle into more "mainstream" distributions and yield definite improvements.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
So things like common applications that exist on Windows would NOT be in your list of "big things keeping linux off the desktop"? Or how about a large installed base of people/neighbors/co-workers knowledgeable in Linux systems so you don't have to hire a consultant to install/uninstall your own software?
Then there's the whole ease of use thing, as in Linux is easy to use for geeks, and people with geeks in their families have a somewhat easier time with it, but what about everyone else?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.