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When Do You Really Need a Lawyer?
"Clearly, once I've been served with legal papers, a lawyer is necessary. But I'm guessing that there are situations where having a lawyer before it gets to that point would be helpful. I'm interested in some general guidelines for when I should pick up the phone and call a lawyer. I'm especially interested in tales of 'I waited to long and got burned' as well as 'I got a lawyer so early it was smooth sailing'. Like most people, I make a decent living, but I cannot afford high legal bills for very long.
For those who are interested, the CEO in question decided to simply report the incident to the FBI. My guess is that the Feds logged the complaint for their statistics and then dropped the matter. However, the brush with someone with enough money and power to drain me financially has left me distinctly shaken..."
...it's a Clue. Also, your situation might be covered by a book or article at http://www.nolo.com, which is an excellent resource for self-help legal stuff.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Yes
You should see a lawyer now, tell him what happened and ask him what you can/should do.
when one is after you
you start asking yourself such questions :)
What if I say something wrong?
For all I know you could trace me down and sue me!
"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." -George H.W. Bush
Save all your correspondence however. In fact, you might want to post them online as well. As far as I know it's perfectly legal (at least, you see it all the time), and maybe this CEO will be humiliated enough to think twice before ignorantly accusing people of things.
I'd LOVE to know who this person is, by the way, so I can be sure not to ever do business with his or her company.
You can find a good resource here.
John
The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
In today's world, either you're a lawyer, you have a lawyer, or you're ignorant. Any time you are served legal papers is good enough for most of us. For the paranoid, I reccomend taking a few law courses to be SURE they know what can / can't happen. If he has that much more money than you, anything is possible. He could very well have sued you, and taken every penny you had. Maybe if you were a lawyer, you could fend for yourself in court, otherwise, you might only lose half of your monentary assets to pay the lawyer.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Always.
And you know it is true.
Looking for people to chat about multicopters, coding, music. skype: gtsiros
If you're being sued, you need a lawyer. especially in a case that would be similar to yours, you could recoup any fees that you'd have to spend on a lawyer in court, if you're innocent and have a decent lawyer.
...just how the hell did you find yourself in a position to be targeted by a CEO who thinks you infected him with Klez? Is he your boss or what? I don't disbelieve that this guy is completely clueless, I'm just wondering how one would end up being blamed for something like this.
At worst, he could find you accountable for the files that were on his computer and _only_ his computer. I would guess that major important documents/programs that your company requires would be backed up elsewhere, and all the other stuff would range from the pr0n on his computer.
IANAL, but if I remember the legal process correctly, if he's suing you for $3000 or less (I could hardly imagine why a computer virus on his computer and only his computer would result in more than that in damages), then it goes to small claims court, which is jury-less and less formal that a full blown class-action lawsuit type dealy you always see in the movies. So I'd imagine that lawyers aren't _that_ extraordinarily helpful in a small claims court.
Karma: Non-Heinous
Umm, did you tell the CEO that worms almost always forge the from: header? Wait, never mind. He probably thinks that email is actually secure. The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that there is a limit to intelligence.
immediately before you install Outlook/Outlook Express on your machine, you Klez-spreading freak!
Lawyers will usually not charge you for an initial consultation. If you are upfront with them, tell them your situation, they'll usually spend 10 or 20 minutes with you and decide if you might need their services or not. If they say you do, they'll most likely ask for a retainer of some sort. Depending on how serious the lawyer believes your situation to be, it could be between $1,000 and $5,000. On top of the retainer, you have to pay the fees they bill until you "close your account" with them.
Some smaller lawyers will just bill against the retainer, while larger firms will require payment in addition to the retainer, but will return the retainer in full at your request when you close an account with them.
Most lawyers charge between $150-$300 an hour unless it is a case where they believe you will win a settlement (in this case, it doesn't seem so; however, you might be able to get lawyer fees if you need to sue if the CEO sues).
IANAL, but I'm married to one and had to use some for my old business.
Just go look up a lawyer or get a referal (highly recommended) and see what they say. They'll know better than any of us on slashdot (unless they are lawyers).
TossableDigits.com: Temporary Phone Numb
Mmmmhmmm...yeah...definately a case to take to Judge Joe Brown (not Judge Judy--I doubt you could take that kind of humiliation--most people can't).
Or you can go to Jiffy Lube to save $20 bucks a year and then the mechanic doesn't know you from a hole in the wall. Doesn't think you'll be back after he's done.
And who want's a total stranger looking up their hooches to find that itch.
I know I'm crass but it does get the point accross.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
... when you could just /. him instead?
No klez, in fact, no internet
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
When you're in court. Thats usually a good time to have one.
... is it more expensive to pay the bill or to pay a lawyer ?
...
I mean actually you might pay him and the CEO (in this example) just stops being stupid (or speaks with his geeky son) and cancels his report. Then you'll have lost money
theefer
is that possible? This claim is insane, as anyone who knows anything about viruses does know that headers are usually forged. it may be hard to prove though, unless you get the source code to the virus, as "a lotta people know that headers are forged" isn't really physical evidence. you should get a lawyer as soon as you can, and hopefully you can recover legal fees from the company. good luck in your legal adventure...
You need a lawyer to answer that question.
...just how the hell did you find yourself in a position to be targeted by a CEO who thinks you infected him with Klez? Is he your boss or what? I don't disbelieve that this guy is completely clueless, I'm just wondering how one would end up being blamed for something like this.
It's not that hard to imagine. Someone had Dr. Harm in his address book probably, they got infected with Klez, and it sent mail using his forged address to someone else in the guy's address book (the CEO). Personally I think we should stop accusing people in the From address and start accusing these stupid idiots who use Outbreak for spreading the viruses. How hard is it for Microsoft to simply remove this stupid "functionality" in Outbreak that allow these viruses to spread? 4 or 5 years ago there were NO email viruses, why is that exactly? Because the mail readers didn't execute visual basic scripts?
I surprised you didn't say if you were fired or not, but just FYI, wrongful termination can be a real bitch to prove.
Regarding when to call a lawyer. If you think you may possibly be charged with a crime, you call a lawyer period. No decent lawyer will not take 5 minutes and listen to your case. You will most likely be told to call back when and if the authorities are going to move against you. If and when that happens you pay a retainer and then go from there. If any lawyer asks for money up front, run away.
Regarding money, if you truly did nothing wrong you would most likely recoup your legal costs in a summary judgement before the case even got to court. Contrary to popular belief most cases do NOT go to court. They are settled either by an arbitrator or judge before hand.
As always IANAL but my father is, and I worked at his firm for several years.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
If you DO ever end up in court, after sending the polite note and getting a lawyer, point out that you have no money for him to take, and that if he does sue you, he'll look like a fool. If the CEO continues to press the suit, carry through on your end and go public.
There are tons of ways for ordinary people to do this. One is your local TV station. My TV station has something called "Channel 3 Reports" which is basically a cosumer line where people can complain if they feel cheated by a business. Channel 3 will send a reporter to the business and make them answer a few questions on camera. This can be REALLY embarrassing, espcially if there is any chance that the business did make a mistake. Many people would rather settle than have a hostile interview on camera.
Newspapers are also your friend. Alternative ones like the "News and Review" will often do interviews with ordinary people who have run afoul of some large business or government agency. Larger papers too might be interested to run your story.
I think enough bad press, and hints of more, will end just about any unfair suit from a CEO who has a company and business to worry about.
Be smart. Be polite. Be truthful. And be persistant. That I think will get you out of any jam that truly isn't your fault.
Peace.
Someone with both him in their Address book and the CEO in their address book got the Klez virus. The Klez virus looks in the currently infected victim's address book for an e-mail address to pretend to be from and sends a message to another address in that address book.
Forged headers.
... you discover you needed a yesterday.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's an easy direct answer to this question. There are different lawyers for different things, e.g., personal injury, crime, insurance, child support and family law, copyright issues, collections etc. In a way, and I mean this as no criticism, but it's a little like asking "When do I need a wrench?" Well, when you need one. "What kind of wrench do you need?" The kind that tightens the nuts you need tightened. Pun intended.
One client of mine is a real estate broker. Recently, when about to close a deal on a $2 mil property, the buyer backed out at the last minute, stiffing the broker for $5,000 of a deposit that the broker had offered as a security as a favor to his multimillionaire client. Isn't this illegal, I asked? Yes, it is, but the broker's options weren't very fun. He could sue for his money, which would cost a bundle of cash and time. Or he could choose arbitration at $1,500 a pop for each meeting. His response, ultimately, was that if you've got the money you can abuse the system, as well as other individuals.
I have a friend who's an attorney who told me once that after you've been an attorney, the threat of court isn't too much of a threat any longer. Granted, those are big words for someone who knows his way around a court system and around the law, but in this case I think the point is that knowledge is power. Your best bet is to know the law around certain issues. And where you get caught unexpectedly, well, to a certain degree that's life in the big city, but there's always options. Some lawyers do, in fact, trade out services for services, and court systems are slow, so you have time to defend yourself.
One client stiffed my business $8,000. We recovered it, eventually, but it took time, an attorney on contingency, and you should've seen the letters from the opposing attorney threatening all kinds of ill will and harm if I didn't stop "harassing" his client. So I sympathize.
If you're kinda handy with Sendmail, and CEO stubbornly refuses to believe that SMTP From: headers can be faked, guess how surpised he'll be when he receives an email from gwbush@whitehouse.gov giving you a full pardon.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
I'm not sure if this is what the EFF deals in, but it might be a worth a shot. the EFF (electronic frontier foundation) is an organization which basically fights for the rights (especially speech) of the average joe. I think they also were helping in part in the defense of the BNETD case.
(to the forgiving moderators: i'm aware that my posts may digress from...yeah, basically anything, so fuck off)
Just send all anal retentive types this link. Sometimes this doesn't even convince them. The evidence is on your side though so don't freak out.
2 .k lez.h@mm.html--
--http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w3
Your name is Dr. Harm.
that'd be a pointless lawsuit that any right-minded lawyer and judge would laugh off. and if for some reason, that guy's lawyers are so greedy for money, or completely clueless, that they try to make the suit stick, then just get a lawyer that knows how to research computer virii and they can easily prove this is a pointless lawsuit.
I am a lawyer and I practised in high tech/business for years. I think people run to lawyers far too quickly. I wish they wouldn't panic and waste their own time and money. As soon as I became a lawyer, my father pestered me all the time with issues. I kept saying he should use his head. Figure out what using a lawyer will get you then think about what it will cost (in terms of time, money, frustration, publicity, anger, damage to relationships, etc.)
You need to take a deep breath and work out the pros and cons of using a lawyer. I think the best time to use one is where you are presented with a situation where:
(a) you are IN DANGER OF LOSING ESSENTIAL RIGHTS. Examples are signing contracts where you do not understand what people in your position normally can get (or lose);
(b) you are unfamiliar with the regulations and laws associated with doing certain things (like holding lotteries, running a business, being a landlord etc.); or
(c) you or your property are seriously injured and you NEED compensation to compensate for some significant loss
Using lawyers simply as a replacement for common sense is really dumb. Lawyers move SLOWLY and EXPENSIVELY. Why? Well, because (1) they have a lot of stupid work to do; (2) they are often sick of dealing with issues that should be resolved outside the legal system; (3) their profession is focused on looking at what they can get out of someone or how to hit back vs. constructively and quickly resolving disputes.
Often you will walk into a law office and have a consultation. Suddenly, the lawyer is putting together your case. What the lawyer is SUPPOSED to do is work with you on what you want to get out of this in the end, explain the costs, timelines (which are a lot longer than you think) and the typical results. Results means more than just getting some money. It means the effect of legal action on you and those around you.
Too often, the lawyer acts more like a plumber who plugs your story into his predefined precedents instead of being a professional who consults with you and educates you about all the factors you should know BEFORE proceeding.
You don't need a lawyer if you can afford a gun.
Recent versions of Outlook won't let a virus access your address book like this. Not to mention anti-virus software has been out forever....
Send him a lot of virus with is own FROM header :)
In any case, you've been served and you must respond, or a judgment will be taken against you. Your lawyer will countersue, and perhaps he can make it too costly for the CEO's company, depending upon the damage. Forget nolo.com. That's for information purposes only. You need an attorney who's done internet law cases before.
What damage did he and his company incur? How much damage is he talking about? Is his company suing you or is he suing you personally?
How did he trace your e-mail address to your physical location? Is there more here that you are not telling us?
I would say that the moment you start asking a geek forum for law advice, you probably need a lawyer.
Explain to him how Klez works and offer not to publish his threatning email in a public forum so that the entire world can see what an idiot runs his company. The richer and more powerful he is the more he has to lose. This wouldn't be Bill Gates, would it? Did he also accuse you of writing Windows XP?
In the UK, a number of lawyers (solicitors) go on a 'no win, no fee' premise, so it's in their interest to do well in court. More often than not, the lawyers hold free consultation days were you can present your position to them for free, and then they decide whether to tak it or not (on the no win, no fee basis or not).
Does nothing like that occur in the US?
If you are an american, you need a lawyer if you want to, for example, pick your nose.
In the civilized world, you only need a lawyer if you work in organized crime.
Special case:
If you are both american and criminal; you don't need a lawyer - Then you are a lawyer!
As a well-established corner of copyright law, you do not own the correspondence you receive from others. You do own the physical media, but you do not have a right to broadcast or republish the material without the author's permission. Unless the author has done something so illegal (e.g. sending a death threat or whatever) that you can be certain of prevailing, and you need the public exposure because you have no other course of action, you should never publish correspondence you receive from others without their permission. It may seem ridiculous, but it is completely illegal almost everywhere on Earth.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Now, as for how to pay for one, that's another matter. You can try to talk to Legal Aid in your neighborhood. Usually, lawyers participating in Legal Aid will give you pro bono (free) advice until it leads to a courtroom appearance, in which case they do usually require payment.
If your work offers a legal plan (like mine does), I recommend you sign up for it. I pay $16 a month, but in return, I have full legal coverage for everything except legal actions against my employer.
RomSteady - I came, I saw, I tested. GamerTag: RomSteady / http://www.romsteady.net
...you've published the CEO's details here, and he's been, /.ed off the web.
:-) . . . you know you want to need a lawyer.
LARTed out of his office by a mob trying to win the new 3rd person Darwin Award,
or at least
go on who is it
in many states,the plaintiff can be made to pay the defendant's legal fees if the case is deemed a frivolous lawsuit, which this case, provided you described it correctly, almost certainly is. my advice is to at least get an initial consultation with a lawyer; most will probably be willing to write you a letter for a small fee ( 500) that may discourage any further action.
Great, you've got a guy who's dumb and rich and a CEO. If he's a CEO he's probably got a decent sized ego. If he's got an ego and you drag his e-mails into the public spotlight, he's probably going to get pissed, especially if the context of the posting is to say "look at what an idiot this guy is". He'll sure for any of a number of reasons, from copyright infringement, to libel (that's the print one right?).
No, you disturbed a dragon. Leave the cave quietly and pray he doesn't wake up. He might never win in court but that doesn't mean you'll have to have six mortgages on your house before he's done with you.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Q: When do you need a lawyer?
A: When you're talking to a lawyer.
Which is to say, if you ever need to deal with someone else's attorney in any offical capacity, no matter how trivial, you're best served by having your own on-call as well.
"For those who are interested, the CEO in question decided to simply report the incident to the FBI."
probably because he saw a lawyer and the lawyer asked him for some sort of actual evidence to use in the case
IANAL, you do not need a lawyer because he's got nothing. FROM field? so e-mail the judge with the judge in the from field. case dismissed.
Despite all the "experts" that Slashdot has on computing, security, software, robotics and just about every other subject under the sun, why for "Bob's" sake would you ask ./ for legal advice?
You need mozilla mail & news.
(Calm down people, this is a joke. I wish it wasn't, but it is.)
In Japan: every 20 years
In Europe: every 5 years
In US: every year
In California: every week
Table-ized A.I.
IANAL...
It sounds like you just got somebody with a bee in their bonnet. (And, if you want another cliche,) My experience has been that such people's bark is worse than their bite.
So, if the CEO wants to sue you, first he has to find a lawyer willing to take on the case. In this case, that means that the lawyer would believe that A) there's a reasonable chance of winning in court and B) that if they did sue you, you have enough money to make it worth their while. Now, B is not as critical -- if the CEO in question is a real jerk, he may sue out of spite. But, A... If there isn't a reasonable chance that you'd win and a judge agrees, not only do you win, but the CEO and his attorney could be in trouble for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
The FBI, luckily is more than smart enough to understand forged headers and also knows more about computer viruses than this CEO evidently does. There may be some record in some computer somewhere, but it won't really mean anything.
The real questions are:
1) Is this CEO is the head of the place that *you* work?
and
2) Is he slandering you among other people?
If he is the CEO of your company and he decides to have you fired or something, then you may have a wrongful termination case. If he's going around telling other people about how you wrote this virus and sent it to him, then that's slander (assuming you didn't actually do it...), which is grounds under which you could sue him. In either case, consulting a lawyer may be a good idea.
Probably the best thing is to take the high road and ignore it.
...look at this as an opportunity.
:-)
You can allways wait untill he serves you then get a lawyer, win the case, counter sue for court costs, lawyer costs, emotional damage, and stupidity. I say if this guy is loaded, the last two worth a few mil easy
-Em
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
or do you only need a lawyer when you have a writ issued against you?
until then, it is nothing but hot air.
...is often the best defense.
Here's what I would do: write a letter to the CEO in question. Don't rant or rave, but explain the nature of the Klez virus in non-technical terms. Attach a description from one of the major anti-virus manufacturers as proof of your assertions.
Then drop the bomb. WITHOUT WHINING (that is VERY important), and without OVERDRAMATIZING IT (also VERY important), warn him that his actions may constitute libel and/or slander, and that any further attempts to harm your reputation will be delt with through legal means.
Try something like this: "Finally, I have tried to be patient. I hope that this explanation has convinced you that I have no role whatsoever in your virus infestation. I know that not everyone is technical, and things like this can be difficult to understand. However, it's a small industry and I will not allow my reputation to be damaged through libellous and/or slanderous accusations. Cease and desist immediately or I will be forced to take legal action."
You might also think about filing a complaint with the FBI that the guy knowingly filed a false accusation.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Don't fret, but countersue. Make his dumbass self realize stupidity too can be expensive.
- IP
IANAL, but I'd just ignore the idiot. No, wait, I'd encourage him to sue me, for the sheer fun in court - not that it'll ever happen. Even if this CEO is completely clueless, his lawyers (if they have ANY sense) will do at least a little research and conclude it would be an impossible case to win, and he'll be made to look a laughing stock in court.
;-)
The IP the mail was posted from (or at least the mail server it came through) will be right there in the headers. If there's any logging going on then this can be traced back to the remote host used to post the mail. If there's no logging, there's no proof either way!
Maybe you could go ahead and sue for defamation of character after the case were thrown out?
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
I'm unsure about US law, but in the United Kingdom, you have to have a good reason to accuse someone of something, and to have them tried in a court of law.
You cannot just phone up the police, say.. 'John Smith threatened to kill me', and expect John Smith to give you a big fat settlement. In fact, what will happen is that the police will verify your story, interrogate John Smith, and will release him due to lack of evidence. You will then be tried for wasting police time and for wrongly accusing John Smith.
Why are things different in the US? It seems if someone threatens you, you're going to lose money by paying for a lawyer! What nonsense.
For that matter, is it a criminal offence to wrongly accuse someone in the US? I get the feeling it's not, and that you only have to pay court fees if the other party is found not guilty.
mogorific carpentry experiments
The situation in a nutshell: Uppity white people clogging the legal system with their bullshit. Basically the guy shouldn't be allowed to be CEO any longer [nudge, nudge, wink, wink...].
"I think all foreigners should stop interfering in the internal affairs of Iraq"
-- Paul Wolfowitz, 7/21/2003
Might be when you have been arrested. Another is when you are accused of a criminal offense. The best clue that you need a lawyer outside of the two above cirumstances is when you start to become convinced that the only acceptable resolution to your situation involves the use of an Axe and a Shovel with respect to your antagonist.
If you can at all avoid it, however, do not start paying a lawyer until your sure that things are getting beyond your ability to control.
END COMMUNICATION
I've been accused of writing/spreading virii twice.. Once I was "reported" to cert. Before that, a person I do contract work for was accused, in the course of a domestic violence case, of targeting a friend's computer with SirCam (and it was alleged in court that I wrote the virus for him.)
Thankfully, it's incredibly simple to prove that these people are idiots who don't know what they're talking about. I wouldn't bother getting bent out of shape about it. The FBI, CIA, CERT, and even your local court system know better than to beleive these sorts of nonsence accusations.
... is to ask a lawyer...
When a policeman gives you a dime.
Money for nothing, pix for free
If this "CEO's" knowledge of IT is roughly equivalent to his knowledge of the law, I wouldn't loose to much time reading /. over it.
Anybody can work under ideal circumstances. -- Jeff K. (January 4, 2001)
not exactly news
.txt open in notepad.
i've been using Outlook (w/Exchange and IMAP over ssh) for the past 6 years. I've never *once* had a problem with an email virus. I get about 30k emails/year (25k of which are from lists).
anti-virus, disable preview pane, have the size of the message displayed, whether it has attachments, and don't open emails from people you don't know. if i get a suspicious email, File / Save As /
Get a clue, then do your GNU duty and give some l'arte bolognese to RMS.
Your signature was attributed to Dan Quayle in "The 776 Stupidest Things Ever Said," which was written in 1991. Just FYI.
It is easily demonstrable that the Klez virus was not written by you and did not come from you. You are safe on that front.
If you have received a letter specifically and clearly accusing you of the things you mentioned, then congratulations, because you have a valid and clear-cut libel case on your hands.
Send him a cheerful letter in return that explains the nature of the virus, and attach pages upon pages of URLs and other documentation to/from leading anti-virus software makers on the subject. Inform him that if he pursues, you'll pursue.
Outlook 2002/XP hardly allows anything access -- shoot it won't even let you save .EXE attachments unless you make a change deep in the registry, or on the Exchange server.
There are pathes available for Outlook 2000, and the previous version as well that adds this functionality, or at least patches the holes. You are misinformed.
Okay, Outlook Express is now patched and will not alow this kind of viruses anymore. Good (I still have to see it). The point of the parent poster was actually that this kind of code shouldn't have been written in the first place. Why was scripting included in a mailclient in the first place? I know there are legitimate reasons (Lotus Notes has scripting too, but it is certificate based), but only in a corporate environment. Outlook Express is not meant for the corporate environment.
Do not forget that for every patched Outlook Express client there are 100 unpatched ones. And a Virusscanner is nice. I use one myself, but alas that is not enough. Home users (or clueless users) tend to think that when they have a virusscanner everything is okay. The problem is that this is not true: unless you update your definitions regularly (my policy is twice a month) you are vulnerable. Most normal users do not understand this, even if you repeat it every time. I have seen virusscanners that haven't been updated in months, even years. That's just false sense of security.
The worst users that exist are the ones that refuse to buy a virusscanner. They think they don't need it. Above that most virusscanners are subsription-based (I use Norton, and that is subscription based). Paying each year for protection: unconceivable for the normal user.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Basically I explained to the officer (who admitted she didn't even own a computer and didn't know why she got the case) how it was extremely easy to forge all of this, and from the header snippets in the printout (they knew nothing about full headers) that it probably came from a certain local ISP.
The officer understood and I never heard anything about it again.
If the CEO is stupid enough to go to law enforcement to try to have you put away and the law enforcement doesn't laugh it off, you can probably explain it to the officers and the CEO will get the results of the investigation and hopefully realise that s/he was pretty clueless to persue the whole endavour.
This twit is trying to bitch-slap you, wrongly. And to give it a fine coating of 'acceptability' he's using 'the law' as his weapon of choice.
I suggest that your weapon be somthing other than 'the law.' - If someone fights unfairly, you are under no obligation to be fight fair yourself, and just because he's in a suit doesen't meen he's fighting fair.
The gravest mistake in encating revenge is the urge to gloat. This give your opponent evidence and can cause him to escelate the battle because he knows who to target. Insead, cary out your revenge some time in the future, be anonymous and untraceable. Refraqin from checking to see if your act of revenge was a sucess. Do not tell *anybody* about the revenge, if you can't keep a scecret then you shouldent expect others to do so.
Good luck and happy trails.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Depending on the laws of your state he may be claiming you have committed a felony. I am being absolutely serious about this. Do not talk to the police at all with out a lawyer present. No matter what they say. they will lie to you, decive you and try and trick you. You make think the charges asinine .. but dont laugh at them .. and make certain you document everything. How do I know all of this ..? Because I was hit with a pair of computer related felonies and didnt take legal action quickly enough. Talk to a lawyer Immediately. Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are not really after you. feel free to contact me directly.
Robert K. Brumbelow
rkbrumbelow@go-ssi.com
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
http://zdnet.com.com/2102-1105-866329.html
What about these issues, patched?
So you're saying that the hobbyist has no legitamate reasons to use scripting...interesting.
Because of my work with technology and with most people not understanding what it can and can't do I amd glad I have a Prepaid Legal Plan http://www.jtgrant.net that lets me talk to a lawyer when I have questions as part of my monthly fee of 26 dollars...I had an incounter with the FBI a few years back due to fueding ISPs...I really did not know what I should say and what I should not say or what they could legally ask me...being able to talk to a lawyer is one thing you really should be able to do...no matter how small the issue is you should talk to a lawyer to make sure you know your rights...I am sure that CEO has lawyers he has talked to able this to make sure he is in his legal rights, anyone that is successful knows to use lawyers...you should to...
If I am tech support, Who the fuck is going to help me... http://www.ibtechsolutions.com
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere : Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.
I pay about $20 a month and accrue hours that can be used toward a trial, in the event I'm sued or need to sue. I also get (as far as I can tell) unlimited phone access to attorneys for questions and concerns. Everytime I call, all of my issues are addressed and the lawyer on the other line gives advice on my options is the advice doesn't pan out.
You buy car insurance before your car is whacked in an accident. You get renter's/homeowner's insurance before your dwelling is burglarized. Why not get "legal insurance" before your sued. Check out Pre-Paid Legal -- I haven't regretted my purchase thus far. Besides, if you're querying non-legal websites for advice on what to do when you're legally harassed, you are way past the point of needing legal counsel.
What is legal is what a judge upholds in court.
Remember this when people threaten to destroy
your life (and has happened to me - in the middle
of a $1.5million lawsuit against an ex-employer).
You need a lawyer at a fairly early stage, but you don't have to pay a fortune to get a letter writen. Ask around and see who is recommended, make a mental note fo them. Firm, prompt responses at an early stage will often work.
Don't ignore law suits or threats (called harrassment), be polite, accurate and slightly
aggressive when you reply to them.
When people serve papers or threaten it is sabre rattling. It is designed to scare you, and it does. I was threatened with "permanent poverty".
Hmmm...but he didn't file...I did first !
Just don't PANIC, it takes years for these things to get sorted out and no one usually wants to go to court. You can be accussed of a myriad of things but WITHOUT PROOF you can't, mostly, be
found guilty of the offence.
It's not fun by any means, so being honest is a good way of deflecting problems of this sort.
And have faith - there are good lawyers out there who will help you. Just DON'T PANIC - that is what
the oppostion wants....
We often consult with them because it makes us feel better; however, I am a strong believer in doing your own due-diligence. Look for case records on similar topics that apply to your situation. Look for press releases and news articles, etc. You're looking for any type of information for which you can arm yourself and your attorney.
I'm gonna say it -- I can't stand lawyers. I think that many of their practices are just plain bullsh*t, particularly when it comes to how many "hours" they work on preparing documents and doing research. So, do your own, and when you work with a firm, share with them, and stay on top of the firm so that you know exactly how much work their billing you for, what they're doing, etc.
You need a lawyer when you think that it might come to litigation. However, even before that day comes, you must do your own due diligence. That is most important because often, in cases like this, that deal with "high-tech" topics -- attorneys don't have the knowledge or experience to handle your case in the most effective manner. You can save time, a ton of money, and your ass (in terms of winning the case) at the end of the day.
If that CEO really wanted to sue you, they never would have confronted you in the first place. You would have had some other 'suit' serve you papers out of the blue, putting that CEO at the advantage... Now that he/she's confronted you they've already played their hand.
Obviously the CEO's display has got you scared enough to think twice about messing with him (which is what he accused you of...) and that's probably all he really wants. Cross him off your list of contacts and delete his email address from Outlook and sleep tight knowing there's one fellow you *do not* owe any favours to!
Height: 38U, Weight: 0 Newtons, Eyes: #0000FF, OS: Gray Matter 1.0 (Alpha)
But if my nickname was Dr_Harm, chances are I'd think you were being deliberate, too ;)
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Just because someone's a CEO doesn't mean they have more money, power, lawyers (or brains, apparently) than you.
All it takes to become a CEO of an S-Corp or an LLC is to send your $50-300 plus paperwork, depending on your state.
I'm actually the CEO of a small web development boutique (read: 3 partners, a few freelancers, no employees) and have been threatened with a couple of lawsuits and the like in the past. We have very little capital (particularly in the current economic climate) to defend ourselves legally -- so we take the talking route until either the issue goes away (almost all the time) or things get verifiably ugly (lawyers/legal documents appear).
The trick is to talk politely but formally (read: certified mail, business-style) directly to the other individual involved, and keep records of every single piece of correspondence -- at this point you're trying to keep the odds of actually getting in a lawsuit to a minimum.
You explain your complete lack of culpability in the incident (including whatever documentation from Symantec/CERN/etc.), and state (FIRMLY) that you take the *threat* of a lawsuit very, very seriously and if necessary you will pursue that route in kind to reclaim lost time, money and any slander/libel damages that may be due to you.
More often than not (in my experience), when people threaten this type of action, they're looking for easy money in an out-of-court settlement -- or they're looking to scare you into submission (completing a project for free, etc.) Being firm and standing up to these kind of idiots gives them pause.
Obviously, taking this route, you need follow-through. The moment a lawyer or legal paperwork rears their respective ugly heads, all bets are off. Get thee a lawyer and be merciless.
Just keep in mind:
1. Just because they talk big doesn't mean they are
2. If they've got money to bring a frivolous lawsuit against you for something that they could verify easily with a google search -- they've got the money to pay out counterdamages. Most lawyers would be willing to take the case with very little retainer.
</IANAL>
the FBI are a lot more tech-saavy than your average CEO.
The answer as to when you need a lawyer depends on just how much money you have and how much legal knowledge you have. Don't forget, if you don't have much money, you're not a very good target for a lawsuit.
CEO. Lots of money. Lots of power. Large corporation.
Doesn't all of this point to the fact that this guy will *probably* have had someone technical to consult with concerning the incident before firing off a threatening response to you? Methinks he's just blowing off some steam, or perhaps lying about his identity altogether. I find it hard to believe that in the Real World (tm) someone at a company like that wouldn't have known whats up, and saved the guy from sounding like a perfectly good horse's ass.
Bzzt. It cites this:
Among the issues Smith called critical is the ability for an e-mail that includes a special HTML tag, known as an IFRAME, to run an attached program. That weakness could be used by a virus to spread to computers through Outlook.
Klez uses IFRAME. Someone sent me Klez the other day. I recognized it as a Klez email right away, but just for yuks, decided to test Outlook. Opening the Klez email did nothing. Problem seems solved to me.
If you want to stick to Pine, that's your problem. I'll take a modern PIM/E-mail client, thanks.
And sue him for emotinal distress.
This is how I would handle the situation. It will surely inflame the asshole and hopefully his lawyer will have a clue before they enter it into court. Imagine the fun publicity the case will generate in the media.
With a name like Dr. Harm in the from: field, it's no wonder he thought you were out to harm him and his organization... uhngh...
Of course, they'll have to seize the CEO's computer as evidence. I wonder how many corporate skeletons in the closet that computer will have.
>I'll take a modern PIM/E-mail client, thanks.
Exactly. That's why I use Pine. Addressbooks, mail folders, automatic forwarding, connection to usenet, opening applications to view attachments (only when I want it to), ability to choose any editor I like, configurability to the extreme, simplicity to connect to any standard type of mail server, price, footprint, speed, ease of use, overall stability, simplicity to backup your mail and address book, safe defaults, ease of use, awesome help system, use of internet standard mail (ie: No HTML), platform invisibility, being able to use it over telnet/ssh/whatever-you-like, the list goes on and on for the reasons you should switch to Pine immediately.
Best email client ever. Outlook Express only wishes it could do half of what Pine already has covered.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
In my experience there are way too many crooks in the legal profession. They will try to scare you into believing that you need expensive services, and then bill you for useless work.
One good resource I've found is the Martindale site. This will help you to find a lawyer in the appropriate field, and may even tell you how highly they are regarded by their peers, both in terms of competence and ethics.
How do I know when I need a lawyer?
You don't need one. Just shut up and ignore this idiot. Save everything he sends you. Write up a log of what's happened (label it attorney work product or attorney client communications). Then shut up. Don't say anything. Don't send email. Don't post on Slashdot. It doesn't matter if you did anything or not or just think you can get away with it.
When will you need a lawyer? When an FBI agent or local officer shows up to ask you questions. Never answer any questions. Not a single one. Well, confirm your identity, but that's it. Get a lawyer then. Tell him everything, preferably in person. Then he'll help you decide what to do. All for only $250/hour.
And, no, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a convicted felon.
You should pick up a copy of "The Underground Lawyer: by Michael Louis Minns. Anything that the layperson could need to know is at least touched on in this book. Excellent reference.
Bottom line is this: If yo think you need one, you are worrying too much. If you are arrested it is too late. Lawyers are not all the blood suckers that the insurance companies have made them out to be. Some really suck, but not all of them. Never a bad idea to have a lawyer on retainer, just in case.
... the country where I quite want to be :)
Tht would be nice if the US did things that way but alas it does not. I've long argued in favor of that sort of system as a way to moderate frivolous lawsuits but I'm not expecting that kind of reform anytime soon. Too many lawyers would lose out.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
If you use MeSy software.
mp3: l33t term for empty.
Isn't it also grounds for you to sue him if he threatens such a lawsuit and doesn't persue it?
on a personal note - you aren't the only one that gets stupid threats like this out there, and I wish you luck. its nothing but frustrating, because of the ignorance/lack of understanding some people have with technology or any subject for that matter.
My work just got some new benefits and one of them was pre-paid legal services. I choose not to take this benefit but it was offered at a very reasonable rate of 25$ a month.
The services include 50hours a year in court, 1hour per-trail, 2 Written legal documents a year, 5 phone calls from the lawyer to a person or company a year.
All the options increase yearly, longer you use them more you can use them for the same price.
too bad klez has its own snmp agent...
C|N>K
So regardless of whether there's anything behind his accusations you need to defend yourself, legally, and this requires a lawyer.
So if you believe this guy is equipping for a fight then do the same. If you don't, then don't.
Simple as that.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
My suggestion is to follow all the advice given by the knowledgable folks on Slashdot. They ALWAYS have two clues to rub together.
This is a bit orthagonal to your question but not all CEO's have allot of money. I've worked for my share of very small companies where neither the owner, company, or CEO had enough assets on hand to out lawyer your average "decent living" individual.
Davo -- Free speech, free software, AND free beer.
Really?
that a CEO these days is a raving paranoiac.
1> When a CEO accuses you of something
2> When the knock on the door has a summons in near proximity....
I would caution against using the President's address, because we all know what a great sense of humor the Secret Service has, right? Instead, send him an email "from" himself. Something like "Hi me, If you will notice the 'from' address, this email is being sent from you to you. Since it is impossible to forge headers in your mind, this must have been written by you while you were sleepwalking. Basically I'm your subconcious telling you to drop the case."
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Format your HD, reinstall all software, defrag the disk and take the "wasn't me" aproach.
... Holywood here you come.
Take the 5th, and there is no way they could prove anything.
oh and make sure you go public, CEO's that can't use a computer but can run a company?
Book deals, tonight show
If you are at all technically oriented, you should ask the CEO if you can be given a chance to prove to him that it was not you. If you are given the opportunity to give him a presentation explaining the Klez worm and how it spreads you could maybe persude him that he's incorrecy. Noone should be fired for a virus sneaking in because it's easy for it to happen. Unless it happens again and again, I don't think anyone should be punished for it. That said, where are YOUR superiors? Your superiors should also stand up for you. If you don't have their trust enough for that to happen, well, I don't know what to tell you. If I was the laweyer in this, I would research it if I did not know anything about it. Within ten minutes of doing a google search, this CEO could be proven wrong. It would surprise me very much if a company lawyer would even consider this case. Although, stranger things have happened.
Gorkman
I am a lawyer. If you've actually been served with a complaint and have no prior experience with this stuff, I'd advise you to contact a lawyer.
You have a fixed amount of time to file a formal 'Reply' to the complaint you were served with. If you fail to file a Reply within the time limit, a 'default judgment' can be filed against you, basically finding you liable for all the causes of action stated in the complaint. (While 'default judgments' can sometimes be set aside if you appear later and give a good excuse for not having filed a reply, you definitely don't want to have that happen.)
So, first thing, is definitely make sure that you file a Reply within the time limit. The only reason for not doing that would be if you can get the plaintiff to drop the case before then, but even then you're going to have to make sure that they file a dismissal of their case within the time period.
I'd get a lawyer, if I were you. But before doing that, I would give the CEO's lawyer a quick phone call. His or her name and number will be on the Complaint that you were served with. Explain that virus emails almost always have forged emails, and give him some reference to a site on the web or a book that documents that so he or she can look it up. The CEO's lawyer is likely to be more rational about this than the CEO, who may be emotionally upset by the virus attack and looking for someone to blame. If the only evidence thay have against you is the forged email address in the from: line -- and if you can convince the CEO's lawyer that those lines are always forged -- then the CEO's lawyer should recommend to the CEO that the case against you be dropped (probably "dismissed with prejudice" so that it can be refiled in the future if they discover more evidence against you).
In talking to the CEO's lawyer, I wouldn't be very forthcoming with information, if he or she starts asking you lots of questions. The main thing would be to just explain to them that virus emails typically have forged headers, and to point him to some authority to back that up. Also, don't lose your cool. Keep things on a calm and rational level. If the lawyer turns out to be an asshole, you may not make any progress with this step. But still avoid using your cool. You don't want people to get emotionally involved in this thing. Lawyers aren't supposed to get emotionally involved, but some will, so look out and don't let that happen. You don't want to make anybody on the other side mad; it could lead to them doing irrational things (prosecuting a crappy case) and causing you even more trouble.
If you do contact the CEO's lawyer and aren't successful in persuading him or her to get the case dismissed, then you should hire a lawyer to take over and file your Reply. You won't want to wait until the last minute for this; contact a lawyer at least two or three weeks before the Reply is due, if not sooner. Your lawyer could prepare and file your reply, and take over in trying to convince the other side to dismiss the case without going further, after you explain the virus-email-forging thing to him or her.
I should include the usual CYA stuff that lawyers have to do when they say stuff like this in a public forum: the above doesn't constitute legal advice. But it is what I would do if I'd been served with a complaint like that and I didn't know anything about maneuvering within the legal system.
Given that the Klez worm doesn't forge its return addresses, that means the poster was infected with the worm - at the very least it should be cause for embaressment.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Why was your name on the "from" field ?
http://www.bcentral.com/articles/msnfeature/108.as p
Lots of stories of people fighting dragons. It's a noble thing to fight a dragon but don't be surprised when you get singed. What I'm suggesting here isn't knuckling under, it's not doing things that might start a pointless fight that will only cost you.
Yes, he can drag it out. Why? Because he's rich and can afford excellent lawyers who can do that. The only risk he would expose himself is that of spending money and if he's go enough of it he can afford to do it.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Hi,
Did you miss the whole "PIM" part? Pine can't hold my calendar and sync with my palm, and itegrate all that with my e-mail. Want to store an email on my Palm for later viewing? Drag, drop, hit the button on the hotsync cradle and that's it.
You Unix people amuse me.
Sounds like an expensive lesson teaching you to not use such horribly insecure e-mail programs such as Outlook, or Outlook Express. (aka Lookout and Lookout Distress)
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
Also, in the case of works with no real commercial value (most e-mail qualifies), you can be successfully sued, but it's very unlikely that you can be sued for monetary damages.
Under United States copyright law, even if the actual damages are less than $20 (lower limit for a jury trial), the plaintiff can pursue statutory damages, which can be as high as $150,000.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I don't have a palm and can't comment on that, but the calendar server of StarOffice5.2 is a sorely needed feature in OpenOffice/Mozilla Mail
Fortunately, there is a project to add that now, a joint effort between the two.
There is already non-server based calendaring that can probably be merged in.
Out of curiosity, can your e-mail client do automatic spam filtering, and public key encryption?
Does it allow various levels of html parsing to reduce web bugs and other spam nonsense?
I quite like mozilla mail, I know it has a way to go, but for my purposes is quite sufficient.
Interestingly, and ironically IMO, I was accused of something like this by some guy at NASA! No wonder they can't get to the moon with less than $100b(or whatever is cost...)!
Actually, he wasn't so bad. I emailed him back and explained it wasn't me(forged mail address, pulled from my company's website...) and he was technically minded enough to figure out I was being honest.
But some advice, don't do like I did and insult their intelligence; I still feel bad about that. He overlooked that and apologized anyway though.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
"More dollars than sence"
...and the scary part is these are the guys not only in charge of major corporations, but also have major influence in the US government. Forget "bless!" God save America!
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
You want advice about what to do, and doing your own legal research is either too time-consuming, or this is a critical issue. IANAL, but I do my own legal research. I have found that lawyers, like the rest of us, are not perfect, so trying to understand the basic legal framework is not a bad idea.
In this case, if it is a Klez virus, the documentation is around about the forged from fields. I would think that it is probably a good idea to keep a diary at this point, and if you want a legal consultation, and want to pay for it, go ahead, but it is probably more important to get the documentation together and document every encounter you have with him.
Also bear in mind that the perspective you get from a lawyer will revolve around a "play-it-safe" mentality, and so the extent that is what you are looking for, legal consultations could be helpful.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
IANAL but it occurs to me that if the CEO thinks that an email From: is accurate enough for the basis of a lawsuit, write up a nice death threat using racial and sexist remarks, address it to yourself, and make the From: be the CEO's. Now either file a counter-suit with that as the basis for your case or at least confront the CEO with the evidence in hand. The look on his face should at least be priceless. :-) If the CEO can do it, why can't you?
which includes xeroxing
Never use the word "xeroxing" in front of an attorney. It's a misuse of Xerox's trademark. Say "making copies" or "photocopying" instead. The "Xerox" mark, like other trademarks, is an adjective and should be used with a generic term: a "Xerox machine" or a "Xerox copier". But anyway, what gives you the idea that four out of five attorneys use Xerox copiers rather than Canon or Sharp copiers?
rape a forest in canada for trees for xerox paper
Does Xerox brand paper come from Canadian trees? Interesting. Got a link?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Post his name and email address here on Slashdot. Let us know his company name too. Before he knows it he'll be getting email from the President, Bill Gates, Abraham Lincoln...lets see him try to sue Bill Gates...wonder who would win that one.
Out of curiosity, can your e-mail client do automatic spam filtering, and public key encryption?
:)
Of course!
Seriously. Think about it. What is a lawyer going to do? Scare him? Make him go away with fancy papers? Make him realize he's an emotionally charged task-completing robot? This is a CEO's ego you're up against. The best thing you can do is keep your mouth shut and hold on to the alleged evidence.
Why? Because I'm sure the FBI gets 10 of these a day. If it ever gets serious (and you really are innocent) he'll show them the malicious email, they'll see the email headers, and they'll track down the stupid secretary that opened funny.exe and sent him the virus. You'll be fine.
The only time you should sick a lawyer on a CEO is when they get potty mouthed and start saying things like "patent".
Last time I had a run in with a lawsuit, It cost me my savings acount. If I had not secured a lawyer ASAP it would have cost me even more. I won the battle, lost the doah. It could have been a lot worse. Theres fight fire with fire mode. If you get served papers, sue him for something in return. Make it look Very Expensive.
You didn't do anything. If the judge has the slightest idea of what a computer is and has been following the news as of late, he'll laugh in this CEO's face. If the judge doesn't know, you and your lawyer can call in experts who will gladly testify against your idiot CEO. Don't worry, he can't touch you.
If you've been accused it will likely affect your situation at work, whether or not it seems groundless now, or even if the boss seems to have dropped the issue.
You've been wrongly accused and you are unlikely to come out the super winner in this. Do you suit your company to make them acknowledge you had no part in this, thereby earning you a rep as a "non-team player" or "mr Suit Happy"? or do you let it slide and live with "hacker" next to your name on some internal memo?
The evidence in your favor is going to disappear soon. If I were in your shoes, I'd get a lawyer, file a suit, subpoena everything you can, including ALL of this guys email that you can get. The mail server will back you up, the boss will be shamed that he made a foolish accusation without researching the issue, and you may even get the company to cover some legal fees. They may be begging for a settlement agreement and non-disclosure before this goes near court.
On the other hand, the company has a lot more resources if they want to try to bury you. You never know when you're going to get hosed by some technicality or a moron judge.
But in my opinion, better to fight and make sure things are cleared up now, than to wait for the company to make an agressive move against you and have it be too late to gather evidence.
First things first. Stay home one afternoon, write down some of those number of the TV lawyers. Why? Most of them have free consultation. Tell them your story and see what happens...now, onto the non-redundant part. ;)
:)
Are you absolutely sure that the CEO did all of these things? I used to work at a company where the CEO was probably the *BIGGEST* asshole. Harassing, egotistical, narcissistic, self-righteous and most importantly a VERY big bullshitter. He would threaten and claim to have done or to do XYZ (i.e., fire people, etc) only to find out later that it never happened.
From your story, it appears (imo) that your boss is the same sort of person. If so, take a sigh of relief and then ask yourself if you really want to work for someone like that. Now, you will probably do 1 of 2 things. Either milk this for everything it's worth or shrug it off. I tolerated being with that company for longer than I should have. Eventually I changed industries while initially having to take less $$, I'm much happier with the people work with.
side note - what state is this in? I believe that we could all probably give more directed advice knowing this.
"...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
I hope this helps.
Is the email header even admissible in court in your state? If "CEO" has no evidence that a judge will consider, you'll never even have a hearing.
There are two motivations here. One is the defense against the false accusation. Have the FBI acted on the complaint? If so, then it is both a civil AND a criminal matter.
The second motivation is if the poster would enjoy seeing "CEO" lose his business, pay a whopping huge settlement to the poster (to avoid paying an even more whopping huge fine to the State), or go to jail. For this, you'd need a strong slander and or libel case.
None of this is going to happen though. The first round of correspondents between lawyers will either end it, or escalate it to the point where it becomes interesting enough for e.g., the EFF to get a precedent.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Have they changed your employment status since beginning their "investigation"?
Is it a position you value highly?
If you contact a lawyer I'm sure he/she will want to know these things first.
I've gotten sick of replying to people who think I've sent them a worm. I've drafted the following and use it as a quick copy-paste solution to this annoyance.
Note that I use the term virus in my form letter as most if not all of these people don't know the difference between a virus and a worm.
---------
Did you receive a virus-infected email which appeared to have come from me? If so, the return address of the email you received was spoofed (meaning the email didn't really come from me).
One of the "features" of many of these viruses is that they use fake reply-to information so you can't easily figure out who has sent you a virus-infected email.
I assure you that none of my computers are infected with anything. I haven't sent you any viruses. These types of viruses are spread by certain email clients running on Windows computers. I use neither Windows computers nor the email clients which are susceptible to such skullduggery.
If you did receive an email with a virus attached which appeared to come from me I suggest you inspect the long (full) header of the email to find out who really sent it to you. If you have a technical support department please contact one of your support people and have them explain the difference between short headers and long headers.
---------
"Clean up the air and treat the animals fair" - Captain Beefheart
Just send this moron a few links like these, and he'll probably just apolgize and go away:
7 4, 00.html
5 5, 00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,521
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,520
If he doesn't, go ahead and let him bitch to the FBI. When THEY are done yelling at him for wasting their time, he should leave you alone.
I would only get a lawyer if the guy was really stupid enough to open a civil suit against you. When that happens, make sure to counter-sue for your legal expenses.
In most cases like the one you are in, you probably don't need a lawyer until their lawyer contacts you or they get so obnoxious that it's causing you to worry alot.
One note here is to think of it from the CEO's side. He is going to call one of his many lawyers who is hopefully going to be able to talk him down.
I used to be a lawyer at a big company, and I faced this situation many times. I was always able to talk the offended wiggo-de-biggo out of overreacting, it just takes a little finesse. When you come down to it, most big companies are actually risk averse, they have much more to lose than you do.
Even though they will threaten & gnash their teeth, when it gets down to their claim against you (with which they can maybe take your house) vs your counterclaim against them (worth maybe $500 million in Alabama) in the jury room, they will think twice about it. Smart lawyers realize this off the bat and talk their shoot from the hip CEO's out of this type of thing right off the bat. Sometimes you may need to get a smart lawyer of your own to help the lawyer for the company get smarter.
Where do you get *your* entropy?
You need a lawyer when you are stupid enough to use outlook express and get infected by one of the most popular worms out there for months!
What would Cowboy Neal do in this situation? :)
As a lawyer myself and being the typical money driven, blood thirsty type of lawyer, I'd say that you always need a lawyer!
But being more realistic, the best way to realise when you need a lawyer is to study a bit of law yourself. All you need to do is find a few cases and statutes and read them. Just go through a bit of tort law, contract law, criminal law and property law, you probably won't really need the others.
I'd have to dissent from this view. Speaking to opposing counsel without representation can be very dangerous. Everything you say will be used against you, and admissions of a party are admissible even as hearsay testimony. While I agree entirely that early communications are a great idea -- and amicable resolution is the best result possible in these scenarios -- to do so without your own lawyer may be very risky.
I once got the Sircam virus mailed to me, with a report card of a little boy in WA. I thought of contacting the parents of the child to let them know the irresponsibility of the teacher, but then I let it slide. [By the way, I infected my test machine on purpose to read the document.]
Another time I know someone who was accused of sending a virus. Another case of mistaken identity, which was fixed by ignoring the accuser. Of course that may not work with this CEO which should be informed they are wrong.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
The FBI is not I repeat NOT a reactive agency. Unless there is already an investigation going in regards to someone purposefully spreading viruses, which there isn't given all the other shit going on in the world, nothing is going to happen.
IANAL. But I do work for a company that does computer forensics, network security evaluations, and the like, and several of the other employees are in law enforcement. I know a little about what goes on in the world.
IANAL. But I purchased some stolen equipment (unintentionally!) in 1999 and got acquainted with the FBI React task force from San Jose, CA. They're paranoid nutjobs from what I saw of them, but you'd be amazed at the five and six digit fraud cases they'd ignore because "We're not a reactive agency".
A virus? How much damage dollar wise did it do? Less than $5k I bet and that is the bare minimum that gets their attention.
IANAL. But I've been the victim of an intrustion that actually got investigated. I got a letter about the crackers about six months after an RH6.2 box got had with a bind exploit - that was about five years ago and I don't think they've ever done anything about it.
So, that is that. Called the FBI? Big deal. Got his lawyer to send you a letter? Ignore it and wait for the suit. Got a real lawsuit? Get N+1 forensic experts, me included if you can get another story posted here, and we'll help you get a *very* favorable judgement.
Lots of goodthings here! 3 things:
When you send a letter use Certified Mail Return Receipt. Can't get a refund from a store w/o a receipt, a judge or FBI agent probably won't listen to you either.
Send a CC (Carbin Copy) to a peer, superior, law enforcement agency or other accountable entity.
Keep your mouth shut. I recommend saying only 2 things a."I'm not speaking to you, and b. Do you have a warrent?. (Use discretion).
Where a losing side pays a winner's expenses, it makes it difficult for poor folk to get competent counsel when they are plaintiffs. The contingency fee, with all its serious problems, is in fact, the only way many people of even moderate means can get justice. Without the contingency fee, only rich folks tend to be able to be plaintiffs.
If you have to ask, then you probably need one. I would at least consult one in this case.
"I recently had the misfortune to encounter a CEO who had just received the Klez virus. Apparently, he believed the 'From:' header and accused me of not only authoring the virus, but deliberately and maliciously targeting him and his organization.
Really?? What's his e-mail address?
You're using her as bait, Master!
Re: your sig...my favorite GW quote of recent times is:
s .htm)
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." --George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair
(from Bushisms: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushism
Have a 'computer expert', not *yourself*, do that.
After all, if *you* can forge e-mail headers, why, you might be capable of creating viruses!
I said (n/t)! Why you look here?
you need your head examined for asking legal advice of Slashdot.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
There is a saying I live by with respect to email and voicemail:
"Never argue with an idiot, since they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
As a techie, this goes for all the email threads that people try to "suck" you in on daily. My rule of thumb is that you have to send me three queries in the form of voicemail, email, or memos in order to get me to consider getting involved in some whacky squabble or messy problem; AND, when I do reply, I am use the telephone so the reply can't turn into some bizarre email thread. Just because something is annoying or puzzling to a single person, doesn't mean you have to drop everthing and go solve their problem or even owe them a reply.
In case anyone missed it, let me say it again, "Just because you receive and email or voicemail with a question, doesn't mean you have to reply.".
It's always tempting to mash the "REPLY" button and show the world just how intelligent you are, but not everyone will see the glow of your intellect in an email message.
Just because someone asks a question, doesn't mean you have to answer.
Just because someone asks a technical question, doesn't mean you have to give a technical answer.
Never be afraid to use these phrases:
"I don't know, but I can look into it."
"Do you have any additional information."
"Is there anyone I can speak with that has additional information."
"Are you sure?"
"I would like to speak with my lawyer."
"Uhhh, Shuttup, Go away...." (From Beavis)
Unless you sent this guy your real name and contact info, I'd just stop writing back. Unless the guy is willing to invest money into tracking you down this is going no where. In fact if this CEO does hire someone with a brain, they will look at the email headers and see the "reply to" is forged, thus end of your involvement. If it makes it to you ISP, they will say, "Send us the email headers" and point out that the "reply-to" is forged.
Additionally, all CEO's should have their emails VIRUS and SPAM scanned. A CEO's time is far too important to waste on crap like this. Since he doesn't have any of these services he gets at least "2" looser points, and might not even be a CEO, but a genuine "Luuuhhhoooosssseeeerrrr!".
Good Luck and STOP REPLYING!
with newspapers, it's all about money. if they think they might risk losing even a penny by running your story, they won't.
if they feel there's a buck in it for them to twist your story around and make YOU look like the bad guy, they will.
your best option is to NOT approach the newspapers unless you have a rock solid case and a lawyer to back it up. but then they probably won't cover your story, it conflicts with their potential advertising revenue sources.
ever notice that newspapers rarely, if ever, do negative stories on local companies?
now you know why.
This one's a no-brainer. All you have to do is show how easy it is to fake a To: field or spoof an IP address. Any information about the sender that can be gleamed from the IP address or To: field is so unreliable it won't hold up in any court of law.
As for what someone else mentioned, yes, any correespondence do belong to the original author. However, if you post them on-line verbatum, the worst that can be done if you post them online (assuming they have no commercial value, as is the case), is that a court may force you to take them down. Thus, you should post a verbatum copy of the correspondence to as well as a posting in your words of what they said. This strengthens your position in court, because you can say that you posted the copy verbatum to prove that you weren't lying. In any case, they can't force you to take down your posting in your own words.
Regarding that, you should always tell people that in corresponding with you, they give you the right to distribute and modify the correspondence, with modifications noted. Such a notification should be on your e-mails, on your web-pages, on your answering machine, on any letters you send; you should say it when you pick up the phone.
As a side-note, Alysabeth's Feminist Stripper site had such a disclaimer for her e-mail, as she'd get a lot of jerks e-maling her, and would want to post their e-mails online so her readers could get a laugh.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Skadet wrote:
"Finland: A files suit against B. A is richer than B, and drowns them in legal fees so they'll settle/lose/whatever. B loses and pays A + B's legal expenses. "
For one thing I doubt the strategy of drowning people in legal fees works in Finland -- US Courts are known for enforcing the letter of the law. A lengthy, expensive, legalistic argument over the interpretation of the 4th word of Section IIX, Subsection II, Clause 3, of a contract won't fly in most other systems because it won't matter. The Courts will try to figure out the spirit of the agreement rather then the letter.
Long legalistic arguments are what tend to make US Litigation so damned expensive. After all you need a team of lawyers (at $300 per hour per lawyer) to even understand what the other side is saying in such an argument.
The only other method to force someone to pay his lawyer is to constantly make motions. Even under US Law, making motions for motions sake is frowned upon. Because American Courts tend to focus on the letter of the law they tend to look at motions individually -- if there's a sensible reason for a motion to have been made they'll tend to let it slide. In other countrys the Courts would typically say "Fuck you" much more quickly.
Also, if you settle you haven't technically lost. Therefore you wouldn't be made responsible for legal fees.
Werdna wrote:
"Where a losing side pays a winner's expenses, it makes it difficult for poor folk to get competent counsel when they are plaintiffs. The contingency fee, with all its serious problems, is in fact, the only way many people of even moderate means can get justice. Without the contingency fee, only rich folks tend to be able to be plaintiffs"
You could implement a contingency fee with this system. Just add it to the penalty -- ie: a 33% Contingency raises a $1 million judgement to $1,333,333.
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
Sue him for barratry and settle for $1.09
"Because this worm does use a randomly chosen address that it finds on an infected computer as the "From:" address, numerous cases have been reported in which users of uninfected computers receive complaints that they have sent an infected message to someone else. For example, Linda Anderson is using a computer that is infected with W32.Klez.E@mm; Linda is not using a antivirus program or does not have current virus definitions. When W32.Klez.E@mm performs its emailing routine, it finds the email address of Harold Logan. It inserts Harold's email address into the "From:" line of an infected email that it then sends to Janet Bishop. Janet then contacts Harold and complains that he sent her infected email, but when Harold scans his computer, Norton AntiVirus does not find anything--as would be expected--because his computer is not infected."
source
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
Talk is cheap, until you are contacted by a lawyer or police, why worry about it. Let him vent.
Depends on where you are. In my jurisdiction, any communication for purposes of settlement is without prejudice, whether labelled or not. It's only able to be used against you if it's actually marked WITH PREJUDICE, which is obviously quite rare. IANAL, YMMV, obtain advice for your jurisdiction and situation.
MHO. YMMV. Any resemblance between this post and real persons, or reality in general, was accidental.
I once threatened someone with legal action who set up a libellous website about me. The reason I did it was so that the person's site would get shut down, and they would stop doing it.
The threat of action can be strong. The radio station I work at is poor. We have had so many threats of action that we can't fight, and we run scared every time.
I wouldn't take this guy seriously. It's just an idle threat in the vast majority of cases.
Since this is just a threat.
If a lawyer sends you a letter. Lets assume that its not registered, just a letter.
Ignore it. Claim you didn't get it.
If you get a registered letter, sign for it. Then ignore it.
Then if you're called on it, say you misread the letter and thought it was an apology.
Until the guy is stupid enough to file a lawsuit, don't pay a lawyer. When you do hire the lawyer, make sure you hire a prick you can write and has a clue. Tell the other lawyer though your lawyer that if the guy doesn't stop being such a fucking meathead that you intend to take the guy to court UNTIL YOU OWN HIS FUCKING COMPANY, HAVE IMPREGNATED HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER AND HAVE HIM GIVING YOU A RIM JOB WHILE YOU WATCH MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL.
Then he'll wise up. Fucking trust me he'll wise up.
Might someone in the CEO's address book receive the same virus "from" the CEO and file a similar suit against him?
First, never acknowledge anything. Never give anyone anything. Pretend they don't exist.
Your advice to do research and help him understand...stupid because it (a) give them ammunition to attack you ("Your honor, for an innocent man, he sure knows a lot about viruses) (b) Is work that this cluefuck CEO should pay him for as a consultant
Second, you're stupid because you put a copyright at the end of your post. Assuming that its not a joke, it means that (a) You think it means something (b) Think it makes you somehow clever in a legal sense.
It doesn't. Not a bit.
Maybe if you put something like this on your memochat:
(c) Cluefuck association
Then we will understand where you're coming from.
Hope this helps you.
You're welcome.
Much better advice than the absolutely moronic advice being passed out here.
Thanks.
I had a similar situation happen to me earlier this year. A women whom owned her own furniture business had e-mailed me in late August when I had got back to college. She made a claim that I had sent her an e-mail containing an attachment with a virus (Klez, I believe) from my college acct. Wondering if it may have been true or not (moreso the latter) I did a full virus scan on my hard drives, to no avail. I then proceeded to e-mail the women back regarding that matter, and KINDLY explained to her the situation, and some non-technical information about how e-mail address can be forged by the virus (and in general). I then sent her a link about the Klez virus from Symantec's website. Needless to say, I received an e-mail the next day with her >thanking me for explaining the situation to her. So just give a shot and try to explain matters to the CEO. It may save you time and a headache in the process ;O).
Don't ask me how I know...
Yes, you can, the fact that you don't know how perform those functions in a Unix environment is not proof that it doesn't exist. That's why you Windows people amuse me, your ignorance. Personally, I don't care what OS you use, as long as the work you need to send to me is platform independent, which is usually not the case with Windows users. So it's usually the more knowledgeable "Unix people" who have to take up the slack by doing the file conversions ect.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
You need a lawyer whenever you deal with gutter slime eBay fuckups, that's when.
Wow some one doesn't like their mod points criticized.
You might need a lawyer once you get papers served. It isn't a lawsuit until registered US mail tells you it is one. Tell him to sue you. Trust me it is the quickest way to resolve this.
He will go to his corporate lawyer and they will laugh at him and it will all go away. If you do get served papers, and if it is the do this by this time or else variety or any other kinds of threat, remember threats are not lawsuits, lawsuits are lawsuits. Once you get the papers there are two options. If they are from the corporate lawyer, take them serious. Get a lawyer. They are paying this guy anyways, he is only going to get off his ass if he has a reason. If they are from this guy's private lawyer, Call him and tell him his client is an idiot. He knows it. He is just taking the work because that is how he is paid and this guys corporate lawyer already told him he doesn't have a case.
If anything comes from the police, or worse, they show up at your door with a court order. Call a lawyer. And don't make jokes with any of the following in them - pig, bacon or donuts. Whatever thoughts come into your head, don't say them out loud. Offer them coffee and ask them if they ever shot anyone. If you have one who did, they will probably forget what they were serving you by the time his story is over.
If it is the secret service, don't worry. If they were going to arrest you, they would have already. By the time they contact you, they know who you are and if they are going to arrest you.
I have been the legal point man for fatchicksinpartyhats (no longer), fatbabies (the game rumor site), evilemail and many other sites. I have been threatened with emails and phone calls more times then I can count. I have been served enough papers from all of the above scenarios that I have two file folders full.
I have never been taken to court, I have never paid a lawyer.
So don't get a lawyer yet. You will only be wasting money and they will try and convince you that you need to put them on retainer. Try logic and reason if you get the papers. Suprisingly enough logic and reason still win out in most cases.
And if you listen to my advice, and something bad happens to you - why in the hell were you listening to legal advice from a guy who had something to do with fatchicksinpartyhats?
Chet
We're talking about Pine, not Ximian Evolution... please understand the context of the conversation before going off like a lit match.
news that slow, that we have to put an imbeciles letters up ? This idiot deserves everything he gets for being stupid...
and ask slashdot should die a slow death...
"Like most people, I make a decent living, ..."
On what planet? Sorry, off topic and all, but the Buzzer of Cluelessness is sounding.
You utter the words "$cientology" and "OT III" in the same sentence.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
I wouldn't call having my name put in an FBI file a 'nonexistent inconvenience.' It's not likely that the FBI would do anything in this case, but in this society a false accusation can be more dangerous than a frivolous lawsuit. If somebody at the Bureau were to decide that this gentleman could be the author of the Klez virus, he could find himself sitting on his steps while the FBI hauls all his stuff down to their lab to be tested as possible evidence (doesn't anybody remember Richard Jewell?). I would say that the uninformed CEO in question needs to be taught a lesson in making hasty accusations.
Be that as it may, your best advice is to address this letter to the legal department of the company. One thing to mention is that klez will say the virus came from whoever it damn well pleases.
Now consider this: in order for our friendly CEO to determine where to send the paperwork, he has to subpoena your ISP. In order to subpoena the ISP, he or his rep needs to go to court. The subpoena is something that the provider has to comply with, but there may be something where the ISP can ask just why this data is being requested. But I digress.
This is indeed a scenario where you need somebody to be at bat for you. Yes, you can represent yourself, and with the details you can probably countersue for lost time and legal fees - but, like many of us here on /., IANAL.
As for the FBI, you probably have nothing to worry about there. They are fully aware of the virus and its actions as explained by NIPC, at this link. In short, the man now looks like a fool in front of the Federal Bureau of Investigations, and they will probably dismiss him outright. It is in fact probably the case that this will be the undoing of everything, but again, check with an attorney.
This sig no verb.
- Stop talking to him.
- Give him your mailing address and demand that all further communications (especially those of the "I'm going to sue you" variety) be done in writing (no, e-mail doesn't count). Certified mail is preferable in this case.
- If he DOES mail you something, make sure you put it somewhere safe. It may come in handy later.
- While you really don't need a lawyer until you see a piece of paper that says "I'm going to sue you" bearing his signature, they are handy to have around to make sure you don't write something you shouldn't in a letter to him. If you must write him a letter, at the very least make sure to read, re-read, and re-re-read what you wrote before you mail it. Avoid things like personal attacks, admitting any wrong-doing and phrases that can be read as "I'm going to sue you."
Generally speaking, as soon as he says "I'm going to sue you," say nothing to him other than giving him your mailing address. Whether or not you need a lawyer depends on his follow-through and if he actually puts "I'm going to sue you" on paper.Beyond that, if you end up needing a lawyer, I hear that talking to the local bar association is handy. You're supposed to tell them how you need a lawyer and they can reccomend those that specialize in that department.
Hmm. Now I'm tempted to author a klez-like virus and send it to, oh, I don't know, carly@hp.com, billg@microsoft.com, ashcroft@hotmail.mil. Then, when they get angry, I can claim in(gnorance|nocence).
- undoware.ca
IANAL, but my father is, and one thing I frequently see him doing is research to find past cases similar to the one he's handling.
For situations that are relatively unique (such as this one), often you can find a similar case that helps validate your position. There are a few big legal research sites (like lexisnexis.com, etc.), though I don't know if there are any that you can use without paying for them. (I also am not too familiar with the amount of legal knowledge necessary to make productive use of these sites).
This may or may not be useful to do right now, but I'd imagine if you end up being sued, precedent-establishing cases from the past can be very useful and perhaps persuasive.
The suggestion made by others to send the CEO a letter *politely* explaining the circumstances seems like a good idea. The suggestion about sending the CEO a forged e-mail to prove the unreliability of the "from:" header is, in my opinion (IANAL), not something you should do. It's a clever idea and may prove your point, but you might be opening up an even bigger can of worms if you do that. While it's obviously not all that malicious, the CEO might equate such an approach to proving that a computer's security system is inadequate by breaking into it. Even if you break in "just to show that the system is insecure" and don't do anything malicious, you're still going to anger people (especially if you can't prove that you didn't do anything malicious). If you do happen to do this, be as tactful and un-assuming as possible in the actual message. I think there is a certain degree of automatic offensiveness to this tactic (from the CEO's viewpoint), though, and this is why I don't think it's a good idea. Also, of course, remember that whatever you send them might be used against you later on.
One more suggestion I think is worth mentioning is that you should try to obtain a copy of the e-mail message (or at least the header) if you don't already have it. I don't know whethr this would be easy or difficult to accomplish, but this would be good to have.
wait until you have been served. To act preemptively in this case would be a mistake as your defending lawyer may create a case by shear provocation, this translates to $$$. It has been done and for anyone to believe otherwise is plain ignorant.
If you do get served, get a lawyer familiar with the technology. It will be well worth the money if the papers being served will lead to a court hearing. Make sure to read the papers and understand what is being implied. In technical cases such as this a good deal of vagueness is used to try and widen the scope of charges.
Keep all correspondences and try to get source of the virus. Also, try to get information on the nature of this virus.
DO NOT talk to the CEO's lawyer. If the CEO tries to ask you questions regarding this virus make sure to answer with a simple "I do not know."
What's the appeal of integrating a calendar with an email program, anyway?
hmm... am I reading this correctly that the virus came from your infected system?
Maybe a nice expensive lawsuite would teach the morons and idiots of the world to stop opening attachments they don't have any business opening?
After looking at his kludge, get a lawyer
If this isn't Captain Bill Simpson, former CEO of greets.com, cdcoupon.com, and probably numerous other failed ventures, who accused someone of that very thing several years ago.
...people getting viruses in email...Microsoft Visual Studio .NET ad...coinquidink? I think not..
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
You need a lawyer! Haven't you ever noticed everybody and their brother has a lawyer? The USA is such a litigous society that if you do not have a lawyer, you are at a disadvantage.
Unfortunately, such a society cannot exist forever due to the inefficiencies involved in doing any type of business activity involves enormous costs of hiring a lawyer or legal team to defend against stupid and frivolous lawsuits.
Currently, the USA has over 2 Million laywers, with over 1/2 of them currently unemployed. Do you want to give one of those unemployed laywers a job?
what's the odd that someone else using exactly YOUR email address to spread virus? Is that someone you know?
:)
Report to FBI after you've received the legal letter from that CEO because in this case you've legitimate ground for seeking feds help($5000 in total lost iirc).
If they could find this bastard(very likely) you could proceed to sue him/her for covering any legal expenses incurred by CEO's lawsuit, plus expenses need to cure your severe case of depression.
You are the victim ONLY when you chose to be one.
I would have let him sue me and then Counter sued him for slander for him saying that you created it and targeted him... since you can ofcourse get information that you did not create Klez and probably get an expert witness from Symantic to help you out you probably wouldn't lose... even if you represented your self... when it comes to idiots (I assume its not a computer company if the CEO dsn't know what Klez does) its best to fight it your self... and if they lawyer could proove that you did craft klez you would be in deeper shit... but I doubt it would even be possible for them to tack it on you...
Send this guy an email from "president@whitehouse.gov". In the message body, tell him who it's really from, and explain that if you can spoof an important address that easily, so can a worm.
I send you this file
in order to have your advice...
In a case like this, where you know it's just a big misunderstanding and all you want is to make it go away, why not talk to a mediator? Mediators are trained to help disputants work out their problems outside of court. And in the event that it does later end up in court, nothing you say during a confidential mediation can be used as evidence in court.
Often you can get mediation services for free; for example, the Los Angeles City Attourney's office provides free mediators for any dispute in which at least one party lives in LA county. Try a google search; you may be able to find one that will handle your case.
"It sure was strange to see something on Usenet about me that didn't involve Klingon gang rape." -- Wil Wheaton
There is much more to it than that, but I don't want this to be TOO much of a blatant advertisement.. :)
In a situation like this, you could simply call your attorney and they could give you real legal advice and coud even help you out without it costing you andthing other than your monthly membership...
p.s. IANAL :)
Like most people, I make a decent living
i don't know what planet you are on, but if most people there make a decent living, then you certainly have less problems than we here on earth.
If the company in question has outstanding balances, I'd say your being shaken down.
The CEO isn't a CEO your worried about cause he's some random lucky guy who wound up as CEO one day. This guy is only thinking about his company, which, like most companies is having a less than spectacular year. The big fish will shake down the small fish if they can. I've had it happen a couple of times, they don't want to lose their ass, so they come up with BS reasons they aren't satisfied with your work and then shake you down on the invoice.
It's always something that would be difficult to contest, the more subtle, the better. This guy prolly would rather pay his lawyer a couple of hours (or has retainer hours to use up this quarter) in order to get you to come to an 'agreement' quietly over this 'delicate' matter, especially since he's questioning your professional integrity.
Make a business decision, figure out what's the best thing for your time and money. Talk to a lawyer to find out the odds and figure out how not to lose too much.
It sucks, but it's part of working for yourself. If you don't like it, hire a CEO of your own to handle these things. This is part of how they create their value for their company. Don't assume you can just work for honest clients either, too many sleezebags like this out there, it's best to make sure you can bill these expenses into your rate, and find someone who can deal with this waste of time for you.
Sorry to hear about it, and good luck.
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
IANAL, but I would argue a Rule 11 against this a-hole for even bringing this suit against you. A quick summary of Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure is that the person bringing the suit has to have evidence that this lawsuit is not frivilous and will not be dismissed. This could get you a quick summary judgment. Just some friendly advice.
Good luck
Hi,
Did you miss the one application does one thing well paradigm?
>Pine can't hold my calendar and sync with my palm, and itegrate all that with my e-mail.
That's because Pine is an email program. It isn't a virtual operating system like Emacs, nor is it sucking at the teat of an operating system like Outlook.
If I want to backup my palm (which I just got for $39 CDN -- WOW), I'll soon be using coldsync because programs that do just one thing well make sense to me.
And, when I want to use a calendar, I'm certainly not going to use an email client. That'd be like going around the world by making bridges across the continents. I'll be using something like this.
When I need to syncronize my mail, I'll use this.
If I really want everyone scrunched into one application, I'll use this.
I haven't even scratched the surface of available applications yet...
You windows people amuse me.
In the future, you might want to search freshmeat before you assume windows does it best.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
...is that this CEO is pissed off royally by spam, just like the rest of us. And contrary to the rest of us, he has resources! Why not turn this around, make him understand "hey, I'm on your side" and together do something constructive?
Unless he's an asshole, of course (Ah, so CEO != a$$hole by definition?).
You can't make a living out of winning a stupid court case.
Of course you can. Just look to the President.
...you need a gun. Do your part to help evolution.
So maybe I'm a bit misanthropic.
-b
If you can afford it, find a competent attorney and sign a retainer aggreement. They come in several types. The most probable type you would want is one where you could pay for a specified amount of legal services up front, for those "Is this something that I should be worried about?" calls. You pay the lawyer up front and they answer the phone whenever you call, they don't need to be worried about getting paid because they already have been. Sometimes you can have as part of this aggreement that you will be refunded a portion of the unused ratainer.
Another type of retainer is the type where you pay a fee for the attorney to always be available for you, then you pay a reduced hourly fee for their services on top of the retainer.
I am sure there are other types of retainer and/or prepaid arrangements out there that could add piece of mind. Call your local bar association to find out, the larger bar associations usually pretty good educational and referral services.
The CEO has falsely accused you af spreading virus and attacking his network.
So you need a lawyer right now, so you can get some compensation, and teach the CEO not to go public when he don't have a clue.
His accusations probably damaged your reputation and self esteem for life. That must be wort a few million.
This has to be the first case of I've heard of where an employer has accused the employee of an already known virus. Hell, I was cleaning this crap out of users computers for quite a while myself. While I could easily believe this guy is clueless, I also can also make an educated guess that this guy is pissed off at you on a personal level. What'd you do? Shit in his Wheaties? All you have to do is hit the Norton Anti-Virus Homepage for Klez. Of course, this isn't going to stop him from pursecuting you for the real and/or imagined wrong that led up to this (he'll find other shit to throw at you in otherwords), but unless he can prove you're the origin of the epicenter of the worlds entire Klez infection, he's another one of those Mofo's trying to skate uphill.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Wow, several hundred posts on this. I may repeat something someone has already said (I lack the time to read all 400 predecessors). Apologies if I do.
Good advice for anyone who appreciates or fears an imminent legal attack is to not only save all correspondence (like someone above did mention) but to also create a log of all relevant incidents. Times and dates are key. Treat your log like a journal - it will prove indispensable should anything occur.
As for when you should get a lawyer, that depends really on what you hope to accomplish. If you simply want to fend off any attacks, I'd say wait until you get a letter from the CEO's lawyer, or you're served with something, or the CEO wants to meet with you. Until that point, a log and a record of correspondence will protect you fine. However, if you want (or need) to take a more aggressive defense position (for example if your reputation is at stake and his mere accusation is damaging), then you can get one right now and threaten an "abuse of process" claim or a defamation claim. Threatening someone with a lawsuit without grounds can give you a cause of action in certain situations. Abuse of process can be used either as a preemptive strike or as an effective counterattack.
As for posting stuff online, I'd recommend against it, as it won't accomplish anything constructive and you may end up shooting yourself in the foot (for example, if you accidently post something sensitive that would otherwise be covered by attorney-client privilege, posting it will dissolve that privilege).
I'm sure this is too much information, but we lawyers are prone to talk more than we really need to.
J. Thomasson
I don't know if it's just a coinsidence, but nolo is a Finnish word for
bad, baffled, corrupt, discomfited,
abashed; ashamed; bewildered; confused; disconcerted; dumbfounded; embarrassed; humiliated; mortified; shamefaced
helpless; destitute; disabled; feeble; forlorn; incapable; infirm; powerless; vulnerable; weak uncomfortable
It does describe the legal world, doesn't it? ;)
(this post brought to you with the help of a dictionary)
Only in USA..
Lawyers are like drugs. When you start using one you will never stop. And it's most expensive.
That's fine in general, but in this specific situation what can you possibly say to him that can be used against you? If all it takes to clear this up is a phone call and a link to www.mcafee.com, how can you pass that up?
Ha! You fool! We're talking about dealing with lawyers and executives here. You are presuming 2 things on their part that you should never. To wit:
1. They will acquiesce after accepting the facts (technical, no less)...
2. Their "business sense" -- ie. pride and/or penis envy -- will let them do so after the initial outburst.
Besides, when has...
"Dear Executive; Please allow me to help. I will prove that I am correct. And, with all due respect, your delusional fantasy is just that. Just go to www.iamrightandyouarewrong.com..."
I got stood down from work today - looks like the curiosity I had that led to me to use nmap, userinfo , l0phtcrack etc etc was detected.
I'm not asking for sympathy, but I was just stoopid stoopid stoopid
I expect to lose my job over this, and my rep around town - ~ 800k people) is probably going to be mud.
If it get's really bad, they mentioned that there may be criminal charges laid
I did no damage, I just looked. No intent to cause harm. It's pretty lame, but it's my only real defence.
don't do it guys - just poking around WILL get you caught, sooner or later.
I am worried concerned that I might find myself the object of legal persecution because of Spam that is being distributed with my address in the forged headers.
I know this is happening because I regularly receive messages that have been bounced by mailservers. Instead of going back to the genuine sender, these messages go to the address in the forged "From:" header.
I have written, several times, to Earthlink (the originator seems to be an Earthilink dial-up subscriber), as well as to the Federal Trade Commission; so far the silence on their part has been deafening.
Now, while being accused of Spam is not as serious as being accused of creating and propagating malware, I think our two situations are similar.
Now, IANAL, but it seems to me that o clear my name I would have to demonstrate:
Ergo, the accusation that I was the sender of the spam is not proven...
Beyond this, can all the headers be forged? In particular, can the first-hop "Received" header be trusted? This is the part giving the IP address of the dial-up modem used to send the message, for example:
From the Granddaddy : For instance, the New York Post this week printed a letter from New York State Comptroller and gubernatorial candidate Carl McCall's letter to the CEO of Verizon (on McCall's stationery) on the front page.
From your drivel : Most "letters to the editor"...
The letter wasn't to the Post, it was to the CEO of Verizon. Unless I've missed something big recently, the CEO of Verizon is not a journalist for the Post, and it wasn't a letter to the editor.
Wow. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone else do what I would do, because I'm not a lawyer, but I'd tell the CEO simply that I didn't do it, that Klez is a common virus, point him at some virus sites, and then say "bring it on" if he wasn't convinced. Then, if he did try to sue me, I'd alert all my friends here at Slashdot about the CEO, by name, and embarrass him and his company for having such an idiot CEO until I got a public apology plus any damages if I got arrested or my boxes confiscated, etc. With any luck, his shareholders will lose confidence in him and hit him in the pocketbook by driving the stock price down.
If CEOs are really that stupid, then I can almost believe the idea that most of the recent accounting scandals are the CFOs' fault. Maybe it's like the role of Governor and Lieutenant Governor in Texas. The Lieutenant Governor wields all the real power politically, while the Governor sometimes gets to become U.S. President...
Get off my launchpad!
Either you fight the other guy, or you willingly hand your money over to your solicitor/lawyer.
Having spent 7 years in continuous litigation following a divorce - there are some times when you can't win. I now represent myself and am doing better. In my experience the primary interest of most solicitors is to keep the case going to keep their fees coming in.
If you must use a solicitor, choose carefully, ask around and choose one that is busy. If he is busy he will not be so interested in bleeding you dry as he can do the job and move on to the next sucker.
Sue that stupid cocksucker first. That's how you deal with that piece of shit. Clearly, you are not the author of the klez virus, and the fact that he got continimated is his own fault, for not protecting his network. The stupid shit needs to be sued - show him that fucking accusing people of malicious deeds ends up with a suit
I'd say this fellow was slandered and lost some serious face. It's hard to keep people with nicknames like "Dr. Harm" from getting bad reputations but we might imagine there's one company he won't do work for ever again.
Evil new laws make the FBI notice damaging. As the federal government has helped itself to wiretaping and other searches without warrent, we can expect Dr Harm to recieve some painful attention. Half the reason the fourth ammendment requires publicaly stated reasons for search and siezure is the harm such searches do. The other half is to preserve personal dignity. Dr. Harm just lost a little dignity and computer usage. They will be watching and some clerk will be reading Dr. Harm's email. Creepy.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
America is Lawyerland.
There are more lawyers than scientits. Wow!
Before give money to a lawyer (that cowboys with words like bullets), think twice.
Best solution:
Go talk to the fellow and clear up the misunderstanding. It'll save time, money and heartache. If your CEO is human, then I'm sure you can work it out without unpleasantness.
However, if the fellow happens to be one of those psychopathic CEOs which seem to be popping up everywhere these days, and whom through some sort of mental disorder and total lack of compassion decides he just wants to make you miserable, then it's okay to use a crow bar on his skull. (I certainly wouldn't tell).
If the crowbar solution is too un-nerving for you, (which I can understand), then it's best to get tactical; Let buddy know up front that he's made an error, show him the stats on how the virus works and that anybody with a software degree could prove it to a court. He'll understand. Subtly raise fears that when he is proven to be mistaken he'll look like a moron in front of everybody, the company will lose stock value, and he will probably lose his position due to a failure in confidence from shareholders and board members.
Psychopaths can be manipulated just like anybody else, it's just that their buttons are hidden in weird positions. Psychos can lie better than anybody, and they have no sense of shame, so if they are proven wrong, they don't feel stupid. This means that they can tell huge lies without sweating a bit because they fear nothing if it goes wrong. However, psychopaths DO have massive concerns about being walked away from. They are very, very posessive; to reject them when they have decided to control you is the worst torture you can inflict on a psycho. This is often the point where they will start using crowbars. And they don't get squeamish!
So then buddy, (if he really is a loonytoon), will smell the prospect of his company ditching him and he'll get very worried. Then all you do is offer him an out; tell him that it's very easy to be fooled by such a virus, that 'hackers' specifically design their viruses to get past the very greatest of minds, (who don't have time for all that nerdy software niggling which great minds like Buddy's don't have time to bother with), and that it is in fact, you who has been made a victim. He won't care about your welfare, of course, but if you can suggest ever so subtly that he can win points with you and everybody by hurling his anger at the real criminal, then you're in the clear.
That might be how I'd handle it, depending on the details, anyway.
-Fantastic Lad
are in this article.
IMAL, and I don't see a lot to sweat here. All I see is a blowhard who's upset that the world isn't perfect. He even knew it wasn't much of a case when he threatened both criminal and civil actions: (which is a distinct no-no in many jurisdictions - it's considered to unfairly use the threat of criminal prosecution to influence civil litigation). Second, what are the level of his damages, i.e. what's he going to collect? lost time? nope, not here. An injunction to stop you from issuing more viruses? nope. his expenses? nope: that's one nice aspect of the 'American' system: the winner has to pay his own expenses. That places a distinct transaction cost on the plaintiff and stops a lot of small-dollar suits in its tracks. I hear a lot of "It's not the money, it's the principle of the matter," until they find out they have to pay something to defend their principles. As for the general question of when you need a lawyer, the first question in my mind is: are you planning on doing something e.g. talk, write, do, or are you planning to react to someone else? If you're the actor, then consult counsel before you act. If you're the reactor, then it's probably best is simply wait until they act. There's more, but it's hard to give a set of rules until we know the facts of the situation. As for this case, you needn't give it another thought until the blowhard actually gets off his duff and pays someone. And given the paucity of damages here, that someone will in all liklihood tell him to forget it.
While your advice is eminately sensible, I would have a differnet take on this situation...
;-) but this would make me see $$$ signs in front of my eyes, and get me thinking about counter suits.
:-)
:)
Now IANAL (nor related to one
At the very least (and to be honest more relistically, few of us have the time or desire to persue counter suits for small sums of money) I would be utterly extatic that this vindictive and inept boob is about to spend hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars taking quite insane legal action against me for something it's entirely trivial to prove was not my fault.
I think it would be safe to assume legal assitance is quite appropriate in this insitance (it's not as if court appointed lawyers/soliciters are incompotent) and more than sufficent to let you off the hook (it's not like they have to be Robert Shapiro). Assuming of course the origional poster hasn't been up to anything else he's not admitted to
It should be noted that fortunately I am in a position where I could afford to take a few days of work to take care of this, again a luxury many people can't afford!
If you ever you wonder whether you might need a lawyer, you probably do.
I'm serious. For most people, this is a seldom-to-never occurance. But when you're in doubt, just spend the $50 for a half-hour consultation and find out.
ObAnecdote: I was recently fired for a really dumb reason. Was it legal? I didn't know. $50 and half an hour later I'd gotten a legal opinion that yes, it was a really dumb reason, but no, there was no legal recourse. Heck, it was worth the $50 just to keep from sitting up at night wondering, "Should I have sued those bastards?"
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Female Prison Rape in NY
I just skimmed the comments so excuse any redundancy but I'd like to know if there was any firing in this guy's IT dept., and what cave has this person been sleeping in? Anti-virus control is a responsibility of every end-user. I say this guy was inviting problems.
PegQuin--I've got a sneakin' suspicion
Most people, if they saw a bottle labeled "nitroglycerine" in the middle of the sidewalk, would sensibly avoid it and perhaps somebody in authority so a compenetent bomb disposal technician could be dispatched.
A geek would be attracted to it like a moth to a flame.
The same goes for any kind of legal entanglement. It's not an opportunity to show off your social engineering hacking skills. Its something to avoid if you can, else hand to your lawyer.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
My suggestion: try to get him to forward the original source of the message he received. With the original message, it should be a simple matter to trace the SMTP headers to determine where the MX chain was broken and the header was forged. spamcop.net has a nifty tool to accomplish that though you can also use dig yourself to find out where the MX chain is forged. It should also be simple to determine where (IP Address) the message originated. Wouldn't it be funny if the virus he received was actually from someone within his company.
I've used Eudora since 1995 in Windows. It integrates with nothing. I've also never received a virus via email--well, I've received them, but Eudora never installed one for me.
Slightly off-topic:
I'm in the process of switching entirely to Linux. I just got my local server switched over to Linux and am loving it. Mozilla, using XMMS for music, still sharing directories and a printer to the remaining Windows stations (the server was/is a file/print server for other Windows boxes), works great. The ONLY thing I'm missing is Eudora. I'm still receiving my email in Windows because I love Eudora.
Can someone recommend a good Gnome email client? The more similar to Eudora the better.
Did I mention Evolution, no, do you know what you're talking about no. Is your intelligence level such that you need a point and grunt interface, I'm not sure, but I'd take that bet.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Yep that just about summarizes what I was going to say...
cat
so I can short his company's stock!
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
You are ultimately responsible for your own PC. One day you should be able to be sued if you forward viruses to people.
By the same token, this CEO is responsible for protecting himself. You could reasonably prove that he is just as negligent as you are. Sort of a "no-fault" situation.
Maybe both of you need to get your virus protection in order.
I am a huge believer in being responsible for your own actions and property. Do you leave the front door to your house open when you leave for work?
That is what you are doing to your PC when you don't take the time to learn how to secure and virus protect it. Leaving the door wide open.
l8,
AC
who realizes the FBI is really, really busy these days?
Besides, why worry about the CEO's lawyer? He would only be concerned with prosecution of a civil (read $$) case, or defending a case against his client. It would be up to the FBI to prosecute any criminal case.
You may want to snail-mail a letter of position to the FBI, stating your side of the case. "I was sitting in my living room, watching TV, then the phone rang..it was this nut claiming to be some big important business guy, saying I sent him a virus." Blablabla.."Maybe this is related to the Nigerian Money Scam?"
Put lots of contact info, they will (if anything) do a brief check, maybe make a call or two, and close the case.
I was investigated once, I was relaxed & honest and the whole thing was over in 15 minutes.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Anytime someone mentions "lawyer", then someone else will need to do the same. Lawyers have guaranteed employment as long as there is greed, lust, disagreement or conflict.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Short version: you likely have nothing to worry about.
Longer version: If the CEO goes through with his threat to contact the FBI, they will send a written inquiry to you requesting a response. Respond and explain. If you are sued, bring in your copy and have it ready for defense.
Either way, per his opinion, you probably have nothing to worry about, but definitely get an attorney if you aren't sure.
This sig no verb.
For criminal cases, listen to the Supremes:
ARGERSINGER v. HAMLIN, 407 U.S. 25 (1972)
"Under the rule we announce today, every judge will know when the trial of a misdemeanor starts that no imprisonment may be imposed, even though local law permits it, unless the accused is represented by counsel. He will have a measure of the seriousness and gravity of the offense and therefore know when to name a lawyer to represent the accused before the trial starts."
The rub is to find a way to get the counsel to recuse himself, as when you recuse him, it is seen as refusing counsel.
For civil cases, I have found that (most) attorneys adhere to two rules:
1. Find out how much money the client has.
2. Spread out the litigation so that you can bill out for all of it.
Most civil legal matters can be handled quite simply by just a bit of study. Every young man in 1850 knew how to prosecute and defend his own case. All it takes is a couple of books on civil procedure, your annotated state court rules, and a bit of resolve.
I have found that attorneys are not taught the law, they are taught theory. So if you have the law, you argue the law, when you have the facts, argue the facts. When you have neither, settle.
For example. My friend pays her mortgage by postal money orders. She generally sends it out priority mail by delivery confirmation. The mortgage company "misplaced" one of the payments, and charged her a late fee. Each successive month, her new payment was applied instead to the older month and she was assessed a new late fee.
After the second month, she sent an affidavit stating that the payment had been made and cited the postal money order numbers and the delivery confirmation number. The mortgage company could have verified all of the payment and delivery information by itself, but insisted upon my friend sending proof of payment. Well, the affidavit constituted proof of payment.
It is now six months later and the company threatens foreclosure. She assembled all of the payment information and wrote up a twenty six count mail fraud complaint, sent it to the US Attorney for that district and copied the company.
With the complaint copy, she sent a detail of the time that she spent on this matter on research and correspondence and she billed them at 75 bux an hour. As an independent contractor, all of the time she spends with the mortgage company, she cannot allocate to clients.
Was it surprising that the company suddenly "found" the payment, properly applied it, backed out six months worth of late payment fees, and wrote letters to the Credit Reporting Agencies fixing the credit? They are balking at the 3,000 bux in billing, but if they don't pay that, she will file suit to recover her costs, and another 10k in emotional damages for being threatened with foreclosure.
Should be a slam dunk, as the company USED her research to confirm the payments, when they could have done the work themselves.
Liberty is not a concept... Liberty is a way of life!!!
Did you do it? If not, your advice may be more helpful than if so.
I advocate the use of a 'roundabout' for 4 way intersections. I read somewhere that there are very few in the states. Is this true, and does anyone know why? They are great at keeping traffic moving at low-mid traffic densities, and not too bad even at rush hour. Of course, traffic is now so heavy that some roundabouts have traffic signals too, which defeats the whole idea.
This isn't a troll, I'm genuinely curious. Any Americans tried driving in the UK? If so, what did you think of those funny circular junctions?
Man, why do all this work when the person is wrong. I hate people wasting my time and I'm sure you are too. What I would do is call local TV and radio station and go live. Might as well have some fun at the CEOs expense. Call the morning DJ's themselves, and go through them, because the producers always try to avoid, this sort of thing.
Well, I don't know about being similar to Eudora, but I like Sylpheed. It is a GTK+ client, and very nice too. The 'bleeding edge' (their words) version is here. It is perfectly stable for me (Mandrake 8.0, Ximian Gnome).
The stable branch is here.
Burn In Hell