Newly Released WineX 2.2 Supports EverQuest

Mattzilla writes "The latest release of Transgaming's WineX (details available here) now supports EverQuest. You asked for it, here it is. This release also has Direct 3D and Direct Show updates as well as fixes for Mandrake 9.0 and RedHat 8.0 CD device auto-detection. With EverQuest now under Linux I'm sure a great deal of people won't find a need to be dual-booting any longer." The EverQuest support is called "preliminary"; check out those release notes for a few known problems and workarounds.

Comments

Wintendo?

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

Who needs a Wintendo gaming system anymore if all these games run under Linux?

Re:Wintendo?

[anonymous coword]

When XFree86 supports 3d acceration on my Ati Rage Mobillty Graphics card, then we won't.

Re:Wintendo?

[Time Doctor]

This isn't Linux. This is Windows emulation.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

All these games dont run under linux.

AO doesn't even install.

DAoC dies at the patcher

Earth & Beyond does not work

Asheron's Call 2 does not work

Lineage the bloodpledge dies

Age of Wonders does not work at all

Add to that RPGs are almost always voted off the list of projects by WineX users so if you have any interest in RPGs at all then you are stuck in windows.

I still can't believe they gave Wizardry 8 a -80 score when it came up for vote.

The only major RPG to make lately is Morrowind.. and then it barely made it at all with a +60 vote.

Gaming on Linux is still a joke.

Re:Wintendo?

[mythr]

Wine Is Not an Emulator! It's an implementation of the Windows API for *nix. If you had ever visited the Wine project's site, you would know that.

Re:Wintendo?

[Sivar]

WINE: Windows Implementation, Not Emulation. :)
(good point, though)

Re:Wintendo?

[damiam]

Those of us with Radeon 9700s.

Re:Wintendo?

[Time Doctor]

Yes and GNU's Not Unix. If you'd ever have read the kernel cousin for WINE, you'd know that:

This is the 139th release of the Wine's kernel cousin publication. It's main goal is to distribute widely what's going on around Wine (the Un*x windows emulator).

Re:Wintendo?

[Jace of Fuse!]

Anybody who ever uses Emulation/Implimentation/Binary Compatibility as a cop-out excuse for not needing another system is missing the point of native support.

Mac's/Linux can run PC games. So developers ask why they should port the project to the other systems. Result? Programs written for a proprietary system remain on a proprietary system and at best, users of other operating systems remain dependant on the Windows software base.

I don't think WineX is the way things should be going for Linux gamers. On the other hand, I'm gald it's come this far. For some users who really ONLY need Windows to run one or two games, WineX is great.

For those of us who buy three or four new games per month, relying on a system like this is not an option. It doesn't work with most of the newer games, and runs like crap with the new ones that do still manage to work.

So in the end it boils down to Unix at the Server, Windows for the games. Everything in the middle can be done on either system, and it's not like I have a problem with running a Unix box AND a Windows box.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish someone could point me to an RPM of WINE that "jus works". I've downloaded several different RPMs of WINE, and none of them "just worked". Either something was missing, or there was some unknown error, whatever. WINE is a non-player until non-experts and non-hackers can easily install it.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, but GNU really isn't Unix. GNU stuff is Unix-like, but it isn't Unix. That is the whole point.

Re:Wintendo?

[woobieman29]

WINE and WINEX are certainly interesting technologies, and are very useful to a lot of people. That being said, before you get too excited about this situation, open up your history books to the chapter on OS/2 and refresh your memory that the main reasons that this operating system lost out to Windows were:

1) Microsoft's better marketing, and...

2) OS/2's excellent Windows emulation.

IBM essentially made the decision on porting applications over very easy for 3rd party developers. Since the Windows binaries ran on OS/2, why the hell would they put any effort into making a native OS/2 app? Never mind that OS/2 was a FAR better operating system, we can support 2 platforms for the price of one! Case closed! Therefore, what happened was OS/2 ended up with no real 3rd party support, and it ended up just being a slower way to run Windows apps. Not very compelling.

I acknowledge that the situation for Linux is different, as the average user is more committed to Linux than people were with OS/2, but even still, I believe that emulators undermine the overall Linux software development effort. The more foresighted game developers are starting to come around finally - let's continue to give them reasons to build native Linux implementations of their work.

Re:Wintendo?

[AndrewGoat]

I agree. EQ has finally made it onto Linux after what, 3 or 4 years of EverQuest being out? Not to mention EverQuest 2 is coming out soon. Gaming in Linux is a joke, and its why so many people dont switch. Sure, Linux can host your mother's webpage, but it cant play but 5% of the 3d games out there.

Re:Wintendo?

[dybvandal]

I disagree. WineX is great because it serves as a way out of the chicken and egg problem. Basically thanks to WineX the market for Linux Gamers can be build up. Once there are enough Linux Gamers out there software companies will provide native support. Paying customers will demand it and not a bunch of opensource users that love getting everything for free that send in a petition.

Re:Wintendo?

[Gyorg_Lavode]

Isn't Baulder's Gate Supported? (Speaking of which, now that I've got an updated version of wine, maybe I"ll install that...)

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah? Perhaps you missed the boat on games like Madden NFL 2003 and High Heat Baseball 2003. If you think that Linux gamers only like to play Q3, UT2003, Sims and Everquest, then you really don't have a grasp on computer gaming as a whole. On the other hand if you think that Linux gamers are really happy being able to frag all day long, then perhaps they should be considering those are their only alternatives. Until games like the ones I mentioned above run on Linux, then Linux can not be considered a viable platform for computer gaming. Don't bother with the typical Linux Gamer arguments.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just Works" is the battle cry of Apple cocksuckers.

Do you suck dick? I bet you can suck a golf ball out of a garden hose. Now come and service me or be smacked.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only intuitive interface is your mother sucking my cock.

Fucking 3D-gamer poser.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you missed the boat on games like Madden NFL 2003 and High Heat Baseball 2003.

I didn't miss them at all. Sports games suck.

Re:Wintendo?

[el_nino]

When XFree86 supports 3d acceration on my Ati Rage Mobillty

http://dri.sourceforge.net/

The Mach64 driver works fine with the Rage Mobility M chip in my Omnibook 6000, the Rage 128 driver works with Rage Mobility 128 chips.

Re:Wintendo?

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

I do, Neither D2MapHack or PindleBot run under winex. The question is, how can Transgaming add support for hacks without pissing off the other half of the gaming comunity?

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you set aside some time to learn to read. You must be american to make such a stupid spelling mistake, sorry but its true.

Re:Wintendo?

[Lemmy Caution]

The original point is still valid: a serious gamer will have the system for which the games they want to play were targetted.

WineX is a crap shoot at best. Not that it isn't a noble and worthwhile effort, and if I weren't a serious gameplayer, I'd consider it a viable way to have one or two games to play in my Linux box. But I shop for my games without checking for WineX support - checking for WineX support first would be too limiting.

Re:Wintendo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not this shit again.

Re:Wintendo?

[mrscorpio]

Ever heard of OS/2? Ever heard of Microsoft Windows?

Embrace, extend...you know the rest.

Chris

Re:Wintendo?

[packeteer]

How often do your games "jsut work" in windows. You have to at least make sure your video card is setup right with all teh drivers. I bet thats your problem. What kind of system are you running?

New improved FP version 18.0.1

[Anonymous Coward]

Get your own!!!
Suckahs.

Re:New improved FP version 18.0.1

[Anonymous Coward]

So now you've got to bump that up to 18.0.2 rc1?

Suckah.

NAVEWEISS WILL DIE

[Anonymous Coward]

In the First Post parking lot....

Oh great.

[anonymous coword]

Now we will see penguins commiting suicide.

Re:Oh great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't let them reach the toilet..

Re:Oh great.

[Mike Schiraldi]

I don't get either of these jokes. :(

Re:Oh great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your parent is to do with the korean dude who died. Not sure about the original parent.

Re:Oh great.

[cicatrix1]

Some everquest player committed suicide about 6-8 months ago. It got worse when his mom sued Verrant/SOE (and lost). The 'toilet' joke is a referrence to the guy who died in the Korean Internet cafe a few days ago... He had been gaming for like 80+ hours straight and they found him dead on the toilet of the establishment.

New Improved FP version 20.0.1-SP1

[Anonymous Coward]

Now with 2050 hours free!!

Re:New Improved FP version 20.0.1-SP1

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there no honor amongst Trolls? If you can't get it at FP, quit using my schtick. Besides, I already told you that the "New improved FP version x.0 is still awaiting 18, not 20.

Holy shit!

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

I actually beat you to it.

I've never gotten a fp before, nor have I ever expected to get one.

Maybe it's just because I quit drugfucking myself during the 20 second wait time.

Enough of FP

[Goalie_Ca]

What kind of losers sit in front of the screen all day constantly refreshing only to find out that they are the 2nd post. HAHA!!! GET SOME LIVES!!!

WINE

[Anonymous Coward]

What really irks me to no end is this: Probably the vast majority of ./'ers are open source fans. Instead of writing software that interacts with M$'s absolutely shoddy software, why are we not bugging the developers of Linux to simply write games for our chosen platform... Linux/BSD. I for one am in the either/or crowd... Either use M$ or Linux. If you're stupid enough to use M$, please... let's not stoop to the heresy level and have it talk with Linux... The entire purpose of Linux is to AVOID M$.

Re:WINE

[Anonymous Coward]

Because writing good games requires experienced and talented programmers. Experience and talent come when you have money to give them. You're not going to have a bunch of GNU/hippies rubbing their 3 1/4 inch Stallman action figure in hopes of being inspired to create the next FPS or RTS or puzzle game just for linux.
They're too busy trying to write better compilers or trying to get the bad fonts out of linux or maintaining the network at their job with minimal effort so they can play solitaire on the windows machine or telnet to a mud.

Re:WINE

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say about talent is true, but it still doesn't change the fact that causing Linux to talk with Linux is heresy.

Re:WINE

[Jim Norton]

Uh, we HAVE been bugging developers to make native versions... newsflash: it isn't working. I think WineX is a good thing(tm .. sorry, had to say it) at first, as it will lure new users if they are able to play their Windows games under Linux. If the userbase increases, it gives developers more of a reason to write native versions of the software.

The entire purpose of Linux is to avoid MS? Oh, that's rich. Maybe you should start bitching at the Samba team and the kernel devs who add in optional support for the Windows file system.

Please... Linux is NOT a religion. It is an Operating System, a means to an end. Nothing less. Nothing more. (and before anyone says it, yes I understand the philosophy of Open Source and even agree with much of it. I just don't believe it is the be-all, end-all of software development)

Re:WINE

[runderwo]

Linux is NOT a religion. It is an Operating System

Linux is NOT an Operating System. It is a kernel.

Re:WINE

[Jim Norton]

... which is the core of ... an Operating System! Ok, what do you want me to call the rest then? How about I call it "GNU/Linux"? Will that be more technically correct? I have to call the kernel and the rest of what makes up the OS SOMETHING, right? I could call it "Redhat" but then that wouldn't really be correct either, would it?

Re:WINE

[UnknownSoldier]

>Uh, we HAVE been bugging developers to make native versions... newsflash: it isn't working.

As a game developer I can give some insight for why. These are all inter-related but I'll break them down regardless:

1. Money - It's a believed (rightly or wrongly) to be a bad investment to spend money paying extra developers to write a product when the market (Mac/Linux) is, unfortunately, 5% of your total sales.

2. Time - With today's tight deadlines, there is no time to develop for other platforms. The attitude is: compile it, fix it, ship it. The more platforms you confine your code to, the less unknowns you have to deal with. This goes the same for PCs and consoles.

3. Complexity - Writing cross platform code introduces another level of abstraction. New code needs to be debugged.

Why can Id, and Epic develop native Linux versions? Because they can afford to -- their schedule is not mandated by their publisher.

That said, there are a few programmers who see the advantages in cross platform development:
- Your code ends up being way more robust as you find hidden bugs amongst the various OS implementations
- You're forced to abstract to a common API (i.e. better design)

I'd like to end with this note: register Linux UT2K3 -- because the only way there will ever be mass Linux support for games, is by having one person at a time do their part.

Cheers

--
" The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."
~ T.'. Jefferson

Riight...

[Pave Low]

I'm sure a great deal of people won't find a need to be dual-booting any longer

You guys can save yourselves a lot of trouble if you stop having these delusions that Linux ready to topple Windows in gaming. It's not.

Even when you have native Linux ports of games, it's still not as fast, not as smooth as the windows version.

So this news is nice, but it's really little more than a novelty for die hard zealots.

Re:Riight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful? Are you retarded? Q3A gets better framerates under linux than '9x. gg moderators

Re:Riight...

[packeteer]

What your saying isn't true at all. I haven't downloaded winex 2.2 yet but when i do i hope for good things but im only gonig to be able to tell about 2.1. Sometimes linux ports/emus run faster and even more stable. You get the added benefits of linux on all your games. Trust me its nice being about to go from half-life to productivity in under 3 seconds.

Re:Riight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Q3A gets better frames running under Linux on a 2GHz computer with a GF4 than under Windows with a 133MHz and a TNT2, for sure.

Re:Riight...

[Verteiron]

The Linux version of Return to Castle Wolfenstien is both faster and smoother than the Windows version. Same resolution, detail level, etc. Sorry, try again.

Re:Riight...

[Jim Norton]

Even when you have native Linux ports of games, it's still not as fast, not as smooth as the windows version.

Uh, right:

Click here

Re:Riight...

[3Kirt]

This is totally untrue.

I assume you're talking about the linux port of UT2003 which is slower than the windows version. This is because UT2003 was written using DirectX and was only later ported to use OpenGL. The OpenGL renderer *is* slower but that isn't the fault of the OS. The renderer just needs a some work.

Why would you want to use windows and have the bulk of your memory taken up by a bloated OS when you can use linux and have the vast majority available for gaming?

Games are very demanding and technically complex programs, so it only makes sense to use an OS that can do a good job of handling such programs.

Re:Riight...

[13Echo]

Hmmm... Your right. Guess that we shouldn't pay attention to THIS

Or THIS

Also, my results in RTCWolf (and other "ports") with a Kyro 2 are MUCH faster than under Windows. Perhaps you need to do a bit more research before you post lies about something that was only true two years ago, when Linux video card drivers and APIs were really immature.

To slighty paraphrase you: So, your post is nice, but it is really just there to appease Windows zealots.

Re:Riight...

[hvatum]

Have you ever tried playing quake 3 in linux and Windows? If you have you would notice that native Quake gets 3 or more FPS in Linux than Windows. Dido for soldier of fortune and the newly released Unreal tournement 2003. I dont't know why trolls today are getting the idea that windows is somehow better at running a game engine and displaying its output to a monitor.

In my opinion mswindows actually does many things wrong when playing native mswindows games. Take for example the way mswindows does a full resolution change. First it changes resolution, then resizes explorer, and then the game starts up. And it always defaults to the lowest refresh rate, which gives a miniscule performance benefit puts alot of strain on the user's eyes. Xwindows on the other hand leaves the GUI as it is, and merely changes resolution, and will always default to the highest refresh rate allowed. And the return to the desktop after exit is instant because the GUI does not need to be resized.

If you have observed a way in which Linux or X windows causes games to be un-smooth or not fast as Microsoft windows then please contact the respective developers.

Re:Riight...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you. I laugh everytime some Linux (and mind you, I enjoy "playing" with Linux) zealot barks "I can play Quake3 all day long, who needs anything more?!?". Windows rules the pc gaming market, and the Linux zealots will need an abundance of hard evidence that the kinds of games like sports simulation (NBA Live 2003 and Madden NFL 2003) and adventure games (Vampire: The Redemption and Gothic) run on Linux.

Re:Riight...

[Karn]

You can run the Windows version of UT2003 with OpenGL. There is some information (including some benchmarking) on that here.

In a flyby benchmark of Citadel Linux scored 48.9fps, while Windows scored 43.6. In Direct3D mode, Windows scored 63.9 fps.

Re:Riight...

[mythr]

Who needs sports games when you can go out and actually play sports? Or have you gotten too fat from sitting at your computer all day trolling?

I'm so sorry, then...

Re:Riight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey jim are you sure that is the link you wanted? Given the conclusion of that article is:


In general, Windows performance is at least twice what WineX can deliver.


Did your religious fevor prevent you from reading the whole article?

Re:Riight...

[Anonymous Coward]

:)

That was great, man. :)

Re:Riight...

[Fizzlewhiff]

Why would you want to use windows and have the bulk of your memory taken up by a bloated OS when you can use linux and have the vast majority available for gaming?

Yeah, as long as you aren't running GNOME with Nautilus as your desktop manager. But with memory being so inexpensive does it really matter?

WineX does NOT support everquest

[Tomah4wk]

Initial support for everquest has been added, and there is some functionality in place, but transgaming do NOT support everquest yet nor does everquest work properly yet. Going on previous track record for transgaming though everquest support will likely be finished by the next release.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[BgJonson79]

But, just seeing that, finally got me off my ass enough to subscribe. I tried it yesterday, and it worked for a little bit, then crashed. And it took forever to load. However, I can now look forward to breaking away from the EULAs from Hell.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[SweetAndSourJesus]

There's something seriously wrong with software when people are saying "sure, it crashes a lot and takes forever to load, but fsck m$ doodz!"

Seriously.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Wanker]

I'm just glad they're working on it. This has been one of those items that hangs around in the middle of the polls, but never seemed to come to the top.

However, this is good enough for me to start sending 'em my money...

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[crazney]

Actually, its definatly playable, my housemate has been playing it under linux for the past few days, and is happy with it.

Visit this link to see how other users are finding it.

David

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[BgJonson79]

Eventually, EQ support will get better. I have serious doubts that the EULAs for MS will.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Doc Hopper]

I concur. I have been playing Everquest for several hours today, and full-screen (as on Windows by default) it has been rock-solid as far as stability is concerned. The memory usage seems significantly higher than under Windows at the moment, so that I cannot load all the models with 512MB RAM, but otherwise it's quite decent.

Things that aren't perfect regarding Everquest under x86 GNU/Linux at the moment:
* The installer does not give you any indication of progress until it is ready for you to change CDs or it is done installing.
* I experienced one error installing Shadows of Luclin, regarding some texture expansion .exe being unable to run. However, the game still ran fine.
* The patcher takes longer than it does on Windows
* The patcher (at least on my install) segfaults instead of launching Everquest. The workaround is to invoke Everquest with "winex eqgame.exe patchme".
* Alt-Tab results in some goofiness under KDE. Probably just due to my window manager, but alt-tabbing out, and then clicking or alt-tabbing back requires that I hit ctrl-alt in order to have any keyboard input. Otherwise the game seems to think I always have Alt depressed. Note this doesn't seem to happen when running it fullscreen.
* Alt-clicking items to paste them as a clickable link in chat doesn't seem to work; my window manager grabs the alt and tries to drag the window. Yet another problem that doesn't show up in full-screen mode.
* Performance at the moment is significantly slower than under Win32. It's not horrible, but it is noticeable.
* Luclin player models have some visual glitches. Due to the age of my hardware (Geforce2MX, 933MHz P3, 512MB PC133 RAM) I've rarely played with them turned on anyway, but I did so briefly today and noted that most characters appeared at least partially nude.
* If you use more Luclin models than recommended by the Options dialog, it's possible EQ may not load at all. It effectively grinds to a halt if the resident memory usage displayed by "top" comes anywhere near the physical memory limitation of your machine. With all models turned on, by the time I got to the 1-frame-per-second character selection screen, EQ had some 400+ MB resident memory requirement, and a total RAM requirement of 820MB...

I haven't had Microsoft Windows installed on my gaming PC in several months, and renewed my EQ account just to check out the support under WineX. This is a nice boon, although I'm certain my wife won't be as happy as I am that EQ runs under GNU/Linux just fine now. Darnit, my Armagetron, BZFlag, and Chromium binges are going to be curtailed I think.

All in all, I'd say it's a fairly successful initial offering to appease the rabid EQ supporters among the Transgaming subscribers. It's still "unsupported" and has some rough edges, but the glitches that are present are certainly not show-stoppers.

Regarding the earlier comments about how by using Wine, one is treading sand that swallowed up IBM's OS/2:
OS/2 failed for a myriad of reasons, not nearly solely due to support for Microsoft Windows programs. Although many believe that was a factor, I do not believe that it had any major impact. There were many things leading to the downfall of OS/2, not the least of which was terrible marketing on the part of IBM, the lack of any "Killer App" for the platform, and the lack of significant bundling deals with OEM's which meant that OS/2 had to be installed by the user (a task then, as now, beyond the interest of the majority of computer users). Indeed, GNU/Linux shares some of the same problems right now, regardless of Win32 exe support.
However, from my point of view, GNU/Linux is in a uniquely superior position compared to OS/2, and the ability to run Win32 packages natively has nothing to do with it. The secret weapon is the GNU General Public License. Business FUD regarding the platform is ineffective in the long run, because the operating system is guaranteed to live on, barring unforeseen litigation. Nobody can fork off their own version of the OS (Read: Microsoft forking Win NT from the OS/2 effort) because the GPL requires those changes to be given back to the community if they are released in binary format.
We're in a completely different battlefield today than the one that sunk the OS/2 Titanic. GNU/Linux's weaknesses are becoming its strengths. I agree that the Wine approach may not be effective at winning over large numbers of MS Windows users to GNU/Linux. However, that's not really the point, IMHO.

See, I wiped out MS Windows because I value my software freedom.

I don't find playing proprietary games under GNU/Linux to be an abrogation of these principles. Games are content-driven (in that new content drives sales), while productivity applications are procedure-driven, and any procedure can be automated and commoditized. Basically, IMHO games are art, and making the concession that the publisher must get back the production cost of the art before the programmatic portions can be released under the GPL seems, to me, to be sound philosophy which acknowledges business needs while supporting software freedom.

Because I value software freedom, and am far more productive under GNU/Linux and KDE than Microsoft's operating system, I replaced Microsoft Windows with the commoditized, free software GNU/Linux. Many others are making this same step. Transgaming's WineX supports these subscribers by providing them with a service unobtainable in an exclusive free-software realm. I value the service, and contribute my $5 a month to their continued success.

I feel the need to comment on the disconnect many Slashdot posters seem to feel. They rail that "Free Software Zealots" seem to change their minds with the topic at hand. The reality is, if you watch those who post, some users feel passionately about a certain topic, and others don't. I've found precious few comments amongst several topics that would cause me to believe the poster had an internal disconnect regarding their point of view on free software.

I have one position I have held for at least the last three years (while using GNU/Linux for years before that for simply practical reasons), and it is quite similar to that which Richard Stallman has claimed many, many times (in different words): The point of the Free Software Foundation is to preserve freedom. In some cases, when there is no adequate free alternative, proprietary software can be used. It is better that a user have a free tool on a proprietary operating system, and thus begin to understand the importance of software freedom, than to have no freedom-supporting software at all. However, if use of the proprietary system can be avoided, it should.

Transgaming provides a valuable commodity: the ability to play popular, but still proprietary, gaming titles on a free operating system. It's a bit the reverse of the FSF's usual line. Games, however, are a form of art, and stand uniquely apart from that which can be easily commoditized into a free system.

As a side note, as far as I have found there is no *good* current free software alternative to a proprietary package such as Quickbooks Pro. I've tried MoneyDance. I've tried GNUCash. If you know of more that fit the bill, please educate me. In the meantime, products such as Transgaming's WineX, and Codeweaver's Crossover Office allow me to use proprietary tools such as this, yet keep my system otherwise as free as I possibly can. There will come a day when the free alternatives do the job "well enough", and that will be the day I convert to a free software financial package. This is neither a contradictory position, nor one that is out of line with the "hard line" of the FSF. It's simply an acknowledgement of reality.

So please, those who've railed against the Slashdot community's collective Jekyll/Hyde syndrome, realize that different people post to different threads. There's a significant contingent of chronic copyright infringers on Slashdot. There is also a significant contingent of those who would never break copyright law, even if they think it is bad. There are those who are free software zealots, and refuse to use non-free software. There are those who only use proprietary software, and snub their nose at the attempts to replace sophisticated proprietary packages.

And there are those in between, that hold both the ideals of the Free Software Foundation quite dear, but also acknowledge that idealism and reality must reach a compromise on our desktops if we are to use these fantastic tools to their ultimate advantage.

That's me. Let's not debate over whether this is a horrible move for the community or not. There are at least 3,000 Transgaming subscribers that believe in WineX, and pay their $5 or more a month to have a voice in the direction of the software. Those of us who do are grateful for the service, and happy to appease our free-software-loving sides because those portions of the WineX suite which can be free software (and not encumbered by licensing) ARE kept free by Transgaming.

Then again, this is Slashdot. Here we debate over whether or not to have a debate :)

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Anonymous Coward]

It works perfectly here, menus and all. Perhaps there's something wrong with your system.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Anonymous Coward]

who gives a shit about this shitty game, this is just another version of aol except it has somewhat "better" graphics. waste of money and time, pay $70 to get the latest version of the game and pay a fucking monthly fee just to fucking play it after you shell out almost $100 for the software.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[0x0d0a]

I cannot load all the models with 512 MB RAM

I'm not an Everquest player, but this seems quite unusual. I'm assuming both that the limitation you're talking about is imposed by video memory and that you do not have 512 MB of video memory.

Perhaps you aren't using AGP texturing for one reason or another?

and noted that most characters appeared at least partially nude

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Microsoft forking Win NT from the OS/2 effort

NT has OS/2 roots?

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[cscx]

Hey if they're willing to put up with that shiyat, let 'em!

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a filthy piggy. Please be sure to seal the grout in my crack.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Ironica]

I'm not an Everquest player, but this seems quite unusual. I'm assuming both that the limitation you're talking about is imposed by video memory and that you do not have 512 MB of video memory.

Perhaps you aren't using AGP texturing for one reason or another?

Everquest requires 512 MB system memory to run with all bells and whistles. 256 MB is the minimum requirement. (This applies to the Shadows of Luclin expansion and models; without those, 256 is fine.) Are there people who have 512 MB video memory? I wouldn't want to see the price on that card.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Ironica]

Veering off topic...

There were many things leading to the downfall of OS/2, not the least of which was terrible marketing on the part of IBM, the lack of any "Killer App" for the platform, and the lack of significant bundling deals with OEM's which meant that OS/2 had to be installed by the user (a task then, as now, beyond the interest of the majority of computer users).

You do realize, of course, that:

- IBM entered into a joint marketing agreement with MS, which MS then welched on. That's half the marketing problem right there.

- While under co-development contract with IBM, MS was urging developers to build for Windows instead of OS/2... because they had "inside information" that it was going to do better (thanks to internal sabotage... yeah).

- Most of the major PC manufacturers (IBM the obvious exception) were at the time finding out, like the software developers, that Windows was the next big thing down the pipe. They got special deals to bundle Windows onto their MS-DOS machines... and they were already locked into per processor agreements on MS-DOS (not that anyone wanted to get rid of it, considering that they knew that Windows wouldn't run right under other versions of DOS, thanks to some planted error messages). Who was there to bundle with?

Yes, you're right about many of the things that caused OS/2 to fail... thing is, Microsoft was in a unique position to make those things happen (or fail to happen as the case may be), and they took full advantage of it.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Doc Hopper]

The model limitation is related to the physical memory of your machine, not the video RAM. For whatever reason, under WineX my 512MB RAM shows up as 504 to Everquest (perhaps due to AGP texturing, I'm not entirely sure), and it only recommends I enable up to 20 models with that limitation on RAM. It seems to eat a great deal more RAM under WineX at the moment than under Win32, that's for sure.

[blockquote]
NT has OS/2 roots?
[/blockquote]

Sorry to go offtopic, but why not :)

Major portions of the operating system have roots in both Digital's VMS operating system and IBM's OS/2. Microsoft and IBM began work together on OS/2 in April of 1987. By October of 1988, Microsoft had recruited David Cutler, of Digital fame, as the project lead for NT. Up until 1990, the NT "personality", or UI, was wholly OS/2; while the "core" of the operating system was VMS, the API and user interface were very, very much OS/2-ish. Later that year, Microsoft leaked plans to fork the OS/2 API into the "Win32" API. Microsoft was slated to be the developer for OS/2 3.0, but decided it would be more profitable to release a 32-bit operating system that was wholly their own rather than continuing to rely on IBM's OS/2 license.

In a nutshell, OS/2 was killed by Microsoft because they abandoned development on the work to develop their own. Note that OS/2 had a SIX-YEAR lead on Microsoft Windows NT, and still couldn't beat it. They weren't even the first movers in the 32-bit arena. VMS had been released on VAX in 1978. The reason it was so easy for OS/2 to run Windows applications was because the Win32 API, at the time of the Windows NT 3.0 release, was barely a minor fork from the OS/2 API. If I recall correctly, IBM licensed the Windows 3.1 emulation from MS as well, but I could be wrong there. However, they still had a problem running Windows 95 executables due to the whole 32-bit yet running on DOS thing. By the time their emulation was up to snuff, Microsoft already had had enormous market penetration.

Back to the topic at hand, the WineX/Crossover efforts are a completely different ballpark than IBM's emulation. Microsoft Windows is in much the same situation now as IBM was in 1993 after the release of NT: there's a new operating system on the block which is very cool, very sexy, and very incompatible with our system. However, it's gaining market share at an incredible rate, and there's not much we can do about it. The key difference here is that GNU/Linux is not in bed with Microsoft, dependent upon the very company it is competing against for continued development.

OS/2 died because Microsoft had its fingers buried deep into the vital organs the whole time. When they ripped them out, all of IBM's efforts to stop the hemmorhaging failed rather predictably. Windows Emulation (or, if you are a Wine zealot, "implementation") on GNU/Linux is a completely different situation.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[0x0d0a]

Well, you can get 128MB for under $90 already, so it's going to go to 256MB pretty soon, and that's only one hop away...

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Doc Hopper]

Yep, as I mentioned in another thread, Microsoft had their fingers deep into the vital organs of OS/2, and when they ripped them out there was little IBM could do to stop the hemmorhaging.

I hadn't realized about MS's development FUD campaign. That would explain the lack of killer apps for OS/2 -- thanks!

It definitely is an entirely different ballgame now with GNU/Linux and Wine rather than IBM's OS/2. My goal was to fix the mistaken impression of many posters that the reason OS/2 failed was because it emulated MS Windows. While it may have been a teeny, tiny factor in the overall picture, the fact is that Windows NT is the illegitimate stepchild of OS/2 and VMS. Microsoft divorced IBM, left him with all the bills, refused to pay child support, and hired professional druggists to attempt to poison the child's prescription.

So I think that Crossover/WineX are a very good thing, ultimately leading people to software freedom. It will be a long road, but it's a better "ecological model" (to use Linus' verbiage) than commercial software, and in the long run it will kill commodity software off.

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[0x0d0a]

This may sound mean to the EQ coders, but I can't imagine what they're possibly doing that could require 500MB of RAM if they were coding properly. I mean, do they trickle-load levels at all? Where on earth could that be going?

Major portions of the operating system have roots in both Digital's VMS operating system and IBM's OS/2

Huh. Always thought that NT was a pretty direct child of VMS (at least the convoluted permissions system seems to be :-) ).

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Doc Hopper]

> This may sound mean to the EQ coders, but I can't imagine what they're possibly doing that could require 500MB of RAM if they were coding properly. I mean, do they trickle-load levels at all? Where on earth could that be going?

It doesn't appear to be much of the code bloat, it is instead the high-polygon player and equipment models, enormous textures, motion-captured animation sequences, etc. I think there probably is a lot of room for improvement on how they handle it to reduce the memory usage. Using the new graphics engine in the days prior to the Luclin release, the game could still run on a machine with 64MB RAM easily. At the release of Luclin, resident memory usage spiked to nearly 800MB before they reduced it.

I would say there is some massive room for improvement. However, it has definitely helped fuel hardware upgrades among the gaming population...

> Always thought that NT was a pretty direct child of VMS

The biggest OS/2 relics in NT are the HPFS filesystem, now extended and called "NTFS", and LAN Manager networking (SMB + CIFS). Windows NT 3.0 and 3.1 included native HPFS support; I'm not sure about recent revisions.

There's a link below to a nice history of Microsoft, IBM, and OS/2. Even casual reading can illuminate to one that there is zero, or nearly zero, relationship to be extracted between OS/2's support for MS Windows executables, and GNU/Linux's support of same via Wine/WineX. VMS is very prominent in the development of Windows NT, and IMHO the NT series (NT 3.0, 3.1, 4.0, 2K, XP) are a nicely-engineered, functional piece of work. However, GNU/Linux is more usable for me on a day-to-day basis at this point...

http://www.os2bbs.com/os2news/OS2History.html

Re:WineX does NOT support everquest

[Anonymous Coward]

Things that aren't perfect regarding Everquest under x86 GNU/Linux at the moment

The fact that WineX isn't GPL would seem to be a big issue for people that think Linux is called GNU/Linux.

Nice....

[pigeon768]

I've been asking for this for a while. Yay!

Anyone tried running EQ and SEQ on the same box?

Re:Nice....

[Doc Hopper]

This is a difficult question for anyone to answer. You see, Sony Online Entertainment (SoE) puts people in an uncomfortable position: If you admit to having used ShowEQ, you can get your account banned. For those for whom the game is an important part of their life, this would be a horrible blow and they should consider very carefully whether they wish to acknowledge such use even on a semi-anonymous medium such as Slashdot.

That said, it is not illegal to run ShowEQ. It is, however, definitely a violation of Sony's End User License Agreement to which one affirmatively agrees each time one plays the game. If you are comfortable with the potential consequences for violating the "contract" you have entered into with Sony Online Entertainment, or else confident enough in your discretion that you don't believe they will find out you have abrogated your agreement, read on.

Yes, ShowEQ works with EQ under Transgaming WineX. You have to know what you are doing in order for it to work, however. Check out their message boards at http://seq.sourceforge.net for details.

In the interest of full disclosure, and since I really don't give a rat's third left whisker if SoE cancels my account or not, I have used ShowEQ. I am currently using Transgaming WineX. However, I'm not using ShowEQ anymore, least of all alonside EQ under WineX. It just seemed to take a lot of the fun out of the game to have all the monster locations disclosed. The stat-tracking stuff is pretty cool, though, but you can get similar functionality using a non-agreement-infringing log parser. While I wouldn't discourage curious hackers from checking out what ShowEQ can do, I would encourage them also to avoid using it in day-to-day play. It tends to lead to either boredom or conflict.

Umm, that said, if any SoE employee reads this, I'd rather not have the account terminated if it can be avoided :) I just shelled out $35 today, after a five-month hiatus, for a 3-month account because it's supported under Transgaming WineX. However, the remedies for being caught using infringing software are quite clear that one forfeits the subscription and monies paid to SoE and cannot use the service any longer. I can live with that penalty if I decided to use ShowEQ again.

The question, before you plunge into the world of ShowEQ, is:

Can you live with the consequences of getting caught?

I say, check it out, and write up your experiences at seq.sourceforge.net. Hell, they even have an Electronic Frontier Foundation donation account set up so you can get a warm fuzzy supporting software freedom while supporting EULA-infringing software. To top it all off, you don't even need the binary package release of Transgaming's WineX to have easy installation of WineX. Gentoo has winex as part of their portage system, and their are binary builds of the CVS checkout available on the net. Those work perfectly well for playing EQ. The only reason Transgaming has a binary-only release for subscribers is because they have licensese for certain copy protection schemes which require them not to release the source for that particular application of the suite.

Hmm.

[omegakidd]

I wonder if I can get it to work with FreeBSD.

Re:Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

haha you got busted

Re:Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a fan.

That honeypot project was one of the funniest things I've read in /. in recent history.

Good show.

Re:Hmm.

[omegakidd]

LOL. I know. It was pretty damn funny. Too bad me and my friend weren't really trying to do anything. We were talking about trying to fix it or something. But by then we had been blocked.

Re:Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

oh bull, you were being a kiddie and you wanted somewhere to store your leet warez.

Re:Hmm.

[omegakidd]

Yeah, I was a kiddie at that moment. but who cares. We wanted to see if we could get newnick or whatever on there so we could keep out nicks. that is about all we were going to do. Well, i don't really care what other people think anyways. So I will just stop here.

Re:Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, you're still a kiddie. Go IRC WARRIOR go!

Re:Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and when they're done supporting FreeBSD, they can start working on support for OS/2 and Irix.

Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Gizzmonic]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of WINE was to illustrate the viability of Linux as a cheap replacement to Windows on the desktop for budget-minded corporate IT directors.

Transgaming is nice and all, but it seems that all the momentum is over porting games. When are we going to see ACT! and VisiCalc running on a Linux box? What about Norton Utilies?

More games are good (even one with EverQuests fatal reputation) but it seems like it's the "sexy" side of WINE that causes the most "geek lust." What about the plainjane broad that's your ticket into corporate America?

It's the classic case of love vs. security. Will it be the penniless Citar player or the evil Majarajah? Right now, my pendulum is swinging towards the Majarah (maybe it's the recession?).

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Ryu2]

WineX is not the same as Wine -- it's a closed source "fork" of the Wine code, with emphasisgaming support. The reason it's closed source is that it's got reversed-engineered code to support copy protection in games,and releaseing that code could result in legal problems under the DMCA.

Wine itself is still under development very much alive and well.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[pigeon768]

What about Norton Utilies?

Errr, how exactly would Norten Utilities work in linux? You mean to scan your windows partition for viruses (virii?) or harddisk/partition errors in case windows won't boot up?

Doesn't the Norten Utilities CD do that when you boot off it? (you do own the CD right?)

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole point of wineX is to increase game support on linux.

wineX != wine

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[alienw]

It is open-source except for the licensed/patented code. It is not GPL; it is licensed under the Aladdin license, meaning no commercial redistribution of it is permitted. The copy protection code has nothing to do with the DMCA; the reason they can't open-source it is because it's licensed from a third party.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[bhsx]

Actually, wine was initially created so that the authors could play StarCraft.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[rnd()]

It's WINE, not WHINE.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's viruses, twat. There's no such word as "virii."

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[damiam]

Codeweavers has been doing much more business-oriented WINE stuff, such as Crossover Office

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[vanyel]

Games are the last reason I have to run Windoze; every other app I use has a viable option on Unix, though some, like Quicken, may require the Mac version (and I try gnucash every now and then to see if I can't replace that). Though truth be told, I hate to think of the lag of EQ under Wine.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

Business: Hello, criticalapplication support desk?

Support: Hello, whats your problem?

Business: Well when i execute function X the program just hangs! i need to get this shitdone today!

Support: Okay sir.. what version are you running on what system etc?

Business: criticalapplication 6.4b on redhat 7.3 with WINE

Support: We dont support that. You, sir, are f****d.

Anyway, you get the idea. You'd be mental trusting your business to run windows apps on WINE without any reassurances.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

Norton Utilities is not required on a Linux box and there are replacements for ACT! and VisiCalc.

What we need are GAMES!

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[StarTux]

WineX is for games, not business apps. In fact CodeWeavers seem to be taking care of the business side of things.

http://www.codeweavers.com

That should help.

StarTux

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[kfg]

This post was either totally doofey. . . or the slickest troll I've ever seen. :)

As has been pointed out already Linux needs Norton Utilities like a fish needs a man, or something like that.

But VisiCalc doesn't need Wine. It's an obsolete *DOS* program that only a few of us hardcore old timers have used in the last *decade.* Hell, most of the "kids" today have never even heard of VisiCalc. It's not only obsolete, but by definition is the *most* obsolete a spreadsheet can possibly be. . . and runs great under DOS emulation or FreeDos anyway.

And did for years before Wine even existed.

As for the purpose of Wine, . . . you're wrong.

KFG

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[HiThere]

What I'd like is to see apps like Encore (a music score editor + playback program), Finale (a more professional version of the same thing), Juliard Musical Adventure (an edutainment program. Pretty good.) Thinkin' Things, Widget Construction set, etc.

Linux actually has the Office application suite pretty much handled, particularly if you include things like Crossover Office (work still needs to be done, but it is well in hand). But what is there that takes the place of "Crayola Castle Construction Set"? These are the programs that *must* be handled under emulation, because they aren't written for anything but the dominant platform. (Well, games fall in that area too, but less so.)

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least he used the correct word by default, cockmonger.

Seriously. You AC trolls really chafe my panties.

Fuck you!

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[fetta]

"Transgaming is nice and all, but it seems that all the momentum is over porting games"

That's why Codeweavers makes Crossover office (http://www.codeweavers.com/home/). The free market at work - both Codeweavers and Transgaming are responding to the fact that two different market segments are willing to pay for an easy-to-install version of wine that supports their applications.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[asv108]

When are we going to see ACT! and VisiCalc running on a Linux box?

Visicalc?

The last time I played with visicalc was in the late 80's on a 286. Why the hell would the wine wolks need to worry about getting compatiblity with a spreadsheet that peaked in the mid 80's? If you want to run visicalc, perhaps you should pick up one of these.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, to bad the WINE project started sometime in 1993 IIRC. Starcraft wasn't announced until 1996. The developers most have known Miss Cleo before she blew up large.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Raiford]

I don't think that genesis of WINE had anything to do with trying to convince anyone of the viability of Linux as a replacement for windows. The development of WINE began around 1993 when Linux was still at version 0.99. I remember when the big milestone when WINE was finally able to halfway run solitare. It was a development project basically just to show it could be done without having to prove anything. I am sure there are those that would love to act like the big time marketing man to say "see we can do anything you can do with your apps" but that was never the original intent

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Fizzol]

Maybe, but business apps aren't WineX's focus.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[Afrosheen]

" But what is there that takes the place of "Crayola Castle Construction Set"?"

Uhm, let's focus on important, must-have apps first. Crap like some Crayola Castle is extremely irrelevant, the office and graphic apps need to come first. The corporate market must be conquered and the trickle-down effect will convert millions of home users. The whole reason why people got windows and home pc's in the first place was so that they could take their work home with them. Let's not lose sight of that.

Re:Maybe more business apps should have done 1st?

[MamasGun]

What I'd like is to see apps like Encore (a music score editor + playback program), Finale (a more professional version of the same thing), Juliard Musical Adventure (an edutainment program. Pretty good.)

Screw that, man...I want Sound Forge. I want ACID. I want Vegas Video. I want Martin Hash Animation:Master. I want ProTools.

Figure out how to make apps like those run on Linux, or write NATIVE apps like those on Linux, and I will happily de-assimilate one of my Windows 2K boxen. Happily.

Jimmy Carter Wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Anonymous Coward]

So tratorious commie fag Jimmy Carter has gotten the Nobel Peace prize. I am appalled. This is proof that the nobel peace prize is a sham and means nothing! Nobel traitorious fag prize is more like it.

Re:Jimmy Carter Wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Clinton is upset he didn't get the "Fat Ho Piece" prize.

Norton Utilities?

[Gogo Dodo]

Why would you need Norton Utilities to run under emulation on Linux? None of the utilities are going to help you fix anything on a Linux box.

Re:Norton Utilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure they ever fixed anything in Windows either...

Re:Norton Utilities?

[altoidsman]

Why would you need Linux to run under emulation on an Xbox? None of those programs are going to help your gaming.

Re:Norton Utilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy shit man you're hilarious.
No seriously. Fucking A! I can't stop laughing.
HA HA HA HA!

Dipshit...

Re:Norton Utilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, Linux isn't emulated on an Xbox. It actually runs on the xbox, as an xbox is just a low cost x86 computer. Then by running Linux, you get a cheap, fully functional computer. You are an idiot and make no sense. Stop posting for the sake of humanity.

Re:Norton Utilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

5 golden manbabies!!

Re:Norton Utilities?

[Alari]

You mean I can't run Norton defrag on my Linux box?!?!?!!!111 ( ;) )

Impressive

[vlad_petric]

... is the number of playable games under winex (by playable I consider games with ratings of 4 and 5): transgaming search (you might need to click "show all results" at the bottom of the page)

While those are clearly not as good as native ports, their holistic approach seems to work much from an economical point of view than, for instance, Loki's. Transgaming also has a much better chance of actually creating a Linux gaming market, as it almost "eliminates" the unfair competition between Linux and Windows games (gamers are a very impulsive crowd, very few will actually wait a couple of month for a Linux port)

The Raven

Re:Impressive

[ink]

While those are clearly not as good as native ports, their holistic approach seems to work much from an economical point of view than, for instance, Loki's.

Actually, I've found that they are even better than native ports. Some of my Loki games will not run on my current system due to glibc changes and such (most have patches available). WineX, OTOH, gives me a single package to update in order to update all my games to my current system packages. In addition, the games do not run any slower; I played Jedi Knight II and WarCraft III under WineX exclusively -- I notcied some slowdowns under WC3 on a certain level (tons of animation), so I tried it out under Windows and it was the same situation. I really like WineX, and I highly recommend it; Besides, wouldn't it be the ultimate insult for Win32 becoming known as the "video game compatibility layer" for future systems? :)

Wine - who needs wine?

[Anonymous Coward]

I really wonder: Do we need Wine anymore? Mono will open .Net programs for linux execution. Wxwindows and winelib enable easy ports. QT allows plattform independancy. Java - apllications run under Linux OS.

Hmm, would be nice to have a OO - fork that imitates WinWord-GUI, like Abiword (sorry, not mature yet).

There are much more applications than two years ago, games, great software.

Windows Software? Dreamweaver, of course. I also like the SQL wizard of MS-Access, despite of Acess sql syntax.

Perhaps even the big gaming companys like Sony and Nintendo will base future game engines releases on Linux OS.

OpenGL is fine, but directX is superior.

Even Windows is going to be cloned: www.xpde.com

I prefer KDE, 3.1 looks amazing (forget Bluefish!)

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[Jim Norton]

OpenGL is fine, but directX is superior.

Of course! Doom 3 is going to be coded in directX, as a matter of fact! Oh wait, no it's NOT it's being coded in OpenGL! Wow, imagine that.

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[Soul-Burn666]

As most iD games, it'll be written in OpenGL but with tons of extensions, this will change when OpenGL 2 is finally out and kick DX from it's place.

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[Joe Tie.]

Mono will open .Net programs for linux execution.

As I understand it, won't that only be aplicable for the most part if a program is written specifically with cross platform performance in mind?

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[Corrado]

I really wonder: Do we need Wine anymore? Mono will open .Net programs for linux execution.

The GUI stuff in .Net is not portable. If I'm not mistaken, Mono will not support portable GUI applications. Is this true?

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[WWE-TicK]

No.

Re:Wine - who needs wine?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I prefer KDE

Faggot

This is exactly what's wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

... With linux

NO GAME SUPPORT! isn't it lovely? Go take a look at the release notes, and it's extremely retarded. What kind of garbage is this? These games aren't meant to run on linux, and rightfully so, they weren't coded for it. This is complete & total garbage, I'm sure transgaming is going to be the next on the list of defunct companies, seeing as how nobody in their right mind would run a game on a OS with such lovely release notes as : "Change your kernel, your fonts will suck, the game will be slow, and It will most likey crash, but buy our stuff!"

Kiss my white, hairy, ass. Linux is for geeks, not for gamers. And if you think otherwise, you're probably flaming pissed over all that Enron stock you bought off a 'hot tip'.

Re:This is exactly what's wrong

[Jim Norton]

Kiss my white, hairy, ass. Linux is for geeks, not for gamers. And if you think otherwise, you're probably flaming pissed over all that Enron stock you bought off a 'hot tip'.

Lamer,

Plenty of games run fine under WineX. They may not be as fast, the fonts are the same (clear the bullshit out of your throat) as under Windows, any game with a 4 or higher rating is just as stable. Performance will improve with time... and the price isn't that unreasonable.

This is the end to OSS development

[spike hay]

All Linux users will now be sucked into the downward spiral of Evercrack addiction.

sanitized for your protection

[Anonymous Coward]

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References

1. http://stileproject.com/eww.html 2. http://www.stileproject.com/ 3. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w= ma 4. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.b igcocksex.com/?revid=5982&s=1 5. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.u ltravideos.com/?revid=5982&s=4 6. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w= aa 7. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s2.oxcash.com/?Site=bangbus.com&Webmaster=xsti le 8. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w= bn 9. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w= cs 10. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.1 shoppingcart.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=12865 11. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.u saescorts.com/?wm_login=stile 12. http://ads.stileproject.com/adcycle2/adclick.cgi?m anager=stileproject.com&gid=3&id=232 13. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileproject.com/ad 14. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tilemedia.com 15. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileproject.com/flashfun.html 16. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileproject.com/sx.html 17. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.c amwhores.com/tour.html 18. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tilemedia.com/?top20=1 19. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileproject.com/webmaster.html 20. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w=ma&t =ma2 21. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.u ltravideos.com/?revid=5982&s=4 22. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.b igcocksex.com/?revid=5982&s=1 23. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://click s.nastydollars.com/sts/ct/count.cgi?a=stile&w=cf&t =cf2 24. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileprojectstore.com 25. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tilenet.com 26. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.c amwhores.com/tour.html 27. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.b logwars.com 28. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tilemedia.com 29. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tileprojectstore.com 30. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://spf.s tileproject.com 31. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://cgi.s tileproject.com/top50/rankem.cgi?id=stile 32. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.s tilesux.com 33. http://php.stileproject.com/x/out.php?http://www.d oodledraw.com 34. http://ads.stileproject.com/adcycle2/adclick.cgi?m anager=stileproject.com&gid=4&id=234 35. http://stileproject.com/ 36. http://rd1.hitbox.com/rd?acct=WQ510406F3SD06EN7 37. http://counter.hitbox.com/a/hitboxfree.cgi

Wine sucks.

[Anonymous Coward]

It still cant even run NOTEPAD.exe without fux0ring.

whats wrong with dual booting

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont see the problem with dual booting with windows for games. just as long as you didnt buy it.

Sometimes I suck.

[Anonymous Coward]

18.0.2 coming soon.

The All Seeing eye

[KeyserDK]

Now we just need wine to work with ASE =)

It actually works as root(socket issue) - except the for the fonts in the server list/player list :/

Re:The All Seeing eye

[Anonymous Coward]

ASE is the best program ever made :) This is the first mention I've seen of it on Slashdot. Good to see some of the geeks out there know how to find a fast server :D

How much time

[Anonymous Coward]

do linux developers devote to getting windows programs to run on linux, getting linux to look like windows?

staggering amounts. Why not build something better? Cause you can't?

Re:How much time

[Zebbers]

ummm, interesting? How is this troll interesting.

Just because some developers are writing software enabling windows emulation on linux, and some are making linux look like windows doesnt even compare to the staggering amount that arent.

Go to sourceforge. See how many fucking linux projects there are in this world. See how many different things are going on. Just cause you can't see past anything else other than windows....cause you cant.

Re:How much time

[Anonymous Coward]

"getting windows programs to run on linux"
Because as linux is much newer than Windows, most programs are built por windows and most people use windows. So we try to keep compatible with most computer users in the world by letting them use the same programs.
"getting linux to look like windows"
I dont know what you mean by that, if you mean the fact that there are "windows" in the desktop, thats not windows but macintosh... In fact tiny windows have proved to look cool and be comfortable for use.
But if you mean that the desktop looks similar, i mean, you must have chosen the windows style config for KDE...

Works Great Here!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been playing Ultima Online UO under Linux ever
since ver 2.1 and with the changes they made a week
later in 2.2 my AC97 on several newer machines now
plays all the in-game sounds as well as the midi music files running in the background...
Worth the buck$

** I also got PrintArtist up and running under it
heheeeeeeeeeeee

How about Tomb Raider and Descent

[dh003i]

Well, Tomb Raider is one of the best and biggest selling series in the last decade.

And the Descent series is one of the best of all time.

Why not these ones?

Re:How about Tomb Raider and Descent

[Fnord]

Descent has a native port (all three sequals).

Re:How about Tomb Raider and Descent

[shannara256]

> And the Descent series is one of the best of all time.

Yes it is, and that's why the wonderful people at the d1x and d2x projects have worked so hard to make it portable. It's now running on the Win32, Linux, and Mac (and maybe Linux-PPC, dunno) platforms. Check it out...
d1x: http://d1x.warpcore.org/
d2x: http://www.icculus.org/d2x/

You'll want to get the CVS versions of both, as there hasn't been a release in some time now. You can read the mailing list at
http://ml.warpcore.org/descent-source/

Enjoy the goodness that is native Descent...

Re:How about Tomb Raider and Descent

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the Tomb Raider clone projects? Open Raider I think it's called...

Should be interesting.

Right!

[SparkyMartin]

That's a comparison of Windows vs native Linux. Here's the results of Windows vs WineX.
Click here

Re:Right!

[Anonymous Coward]

and it gets closer to the point: winex games are not as fast as native windows games.

Re:Right!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are so dense. Notice how the FPS never goes above 50? That is because winex has a built-in 50fps limit. They are working to remove that.

Re:Right!

[Jim Norton]

Yes, but this was not what I was rebutting. He claimed that native Linux versions of Windows software is not as fast -- which is wrong (all other things being equal, of course)

Re:Right!

[Anonymous Coward]

you dildo.

Re:Right!

[packeteer]

No its no winex. Its a kernel problem which they dont have control over. If they code their own kernel module for Winex it might be able to be fixed but thats too much work. Honestly 50 fps is fine and its only some games anyway.

Re:Right!

[Anonymous Coward]

"native Linux versions of Windows software "

Is this an oxymoron or something? If it is native Linux softare... isn't it Linux software and not Windows software?

- yeah, I know what you meant... but calling it 'Linux Q3A' as opposed to 'A Linux Version of the Windows Q3A' is much better for Linux.

Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[Steveftoth]

The advantage of Wine is that a developer could write their game for DirectX and have it work for both Windows, XBOX, and Linux. If WineX was a perfect implementation of the Win32 gaming APIs, then everyone wins!

Linux people can use linux to play games and do work.

Windows people play their games.

Some people will never switch from windows, but those that are on the edge (because of games) could be easily swayed because of projects like this.

If enough people are using linux, then eventuatly people will start to write games for them. It's only a matter of time.

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[Anonymous Coward]

If enough people are using linux, then eventuatly people will start to write games for them. It's only a matter of time. Yup only a few hundred years.

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[Dean Sas]

what would be the point in writing games specifically for gnu/linux when someone else (transgaming)will happily port them for you for free?

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

Why would it matter? If it works, it works. Be it emulation(okay, api implentation..) or native, the end user still gets to play their games, Transgaming still gets paid, the game developers still get paid, whats the problem?
I for one would like to see transgaming get big enough that the game developers could rely on them, because it means their product is working well enough that end users dont have to complain to the developer (Valve still hasnt replied to me..)

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

A little off topic, but of some relevance.. What about the reverse?
Do you complain about things like Gaim, Mozilla, Gvim, Ettercap, And MANY other OpenSource applications running fine under windows? Personally, the availability of these has kept me in windows more than winex has kept me in linux.

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[Karn]

Because other native Linux games which perform much better will be purchased before your WineXed game?

What I forsee happening is some companies using Wine in the beginning to lower the cost of entry into providing Linux gaming, and then moving to native later on when it's more feasible.

If they don't want to go native, then their games will not run as well as their native competetion. In the end, it will work out great for Linux users.

The hysteria behind Wine is silly in my opinion. It's because of Transgaming and Wine I was actually able to get rid of my dual boot and still have access to the games I play, as well as big future titles. Think about it: the market is GROWING because of Wine. When the market is large enough, it will be feasible for a company to write a native version of the game.

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[nchip]

I don't think OSS Windows applications just contribute to the change eventually.

While you learn to use open source applications you will come slowly ready to start using a full open source desktop. And when you move, with wine you can keep using all the propierty applications/games still. So the key is smooth transition.

If there would be a killer app that forced people to move immideatly, It would come as a cultore shock and most people would move back.

Re:Wine isthe way for linux games to GO!

[Steveftoth]

Exactly, a game developer can write a game and test it in both linux with WineX and in Windows. Thus when the game is done, they know all the limitations and can say that it 'works' in linux as well as in Windows. Even if the don't fully support it in linux, it's still a win.

This is only adding capabilities to the system, this is a good thing.

I thought everything Linux ran on BSD?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what the BSD overview story said. If it runs in Linux, it will run in BSD.

It is open source

[brunes69]

Under the AFPL. You can download all the source code at sourceforge (http://www.sf.net/projects/winex/) via CVS. The only parts not released are the portions that you need ot read Copy-Protected CD's (with SafeDisk). But many games don't even require this.

UT2k3 speed

[Anonymous Coward]

I have benchmarked UT2k3 with D3D and OpenGL under WinXP and Win98SE and I get roughly the same numbers for the two renderers. I haven't benched under Linux yet but the game speed seems comparable to WinXP on the same hardware ( Athlon 1.4, GF3).

earn free karma by answering simple questions

[jovlinger]

I'm lazy: can anyone figure out for me whether I can play warcraft 3 w/o rebooting?

Also, where can I buy wc3 on the cheap?

Can anyone recommend a side-scroller that runs under linux?

Re:earn free karma by answering simple questions

[Doc Hopper]

Hmm... not exactly "side scrollers", but these are some 2d-ish fun games I play on GNU/Linux quite often:

Chromium. Requires 3D acceleration, however. Nifty particle effects, runs at 50fps even on crappy accelerators if they have decent GNU/Linux support.

Super Methane Brothers: Easy enough for a child to play, but rather addicting.

Plus an assortment of other 3D and 2D games that are quite comprehensive on Mandrake Linux.

Re:earn free karma by answering simple questions

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.transgaming.com/gamepage.php?gameid=556
WarCarft 3 is supported with a rating of 4 out of 5 and is offically supported.

Linux Games

[Badanov]

I primarily play military turned based games and the dearth of those games for Linux has led me to a mixed bag of solutions. One of them has been to use Freedos to run DOS games such as Steel Panthers (MBT) Main Battle Tank and Steel Panthers III. But is has been the Safedisc protected CD of the Talonsoft series of game which has been the most frustrating for me. I have spend a couple of years in a wargaming club working for a club wide game using East Front II running on a Linux box under Wine. Why not Win2000 or WinXP? Try the cost for starters, and then security issues and finally the EULAs and the service packs. I want, I NEED to run east Front II on a Linux box. To that end I have been a subscriber to Transgaming and even though I don't care for the voting system (only because East Front II isn't as popular as some of the others) I will continue to subscribe to transgaming on the hope they can finally get EFII to run. It has been a frustrating year for me, and I have gone as far as gaining some of the tools needed to crack EFII so I can run it on a Linux platform. Is Transgaming efforts doom to failure in a commercial sense? Who cares? For me the issue is to get these games running well on a true multitasking/multiuser platform and I will as well as hopefully more people will continue to subscribe to Transgaming. Microsoft's main strength has been in computer gaming but even that market is apparently moving onto the "more secure" Xbox. Windows games on Linux is an economic alternative to rising license/OS costs, and as I said before Transgaming is well worthy of continuing support. It's only $5.00 USD a month. Disclaimer: I have no financial stake in Transgaming.)

Re:Linux Games

[NorthWoodsman]

"...and I have gone as far as gaining some of the tools needed to crack EFII..." What I don't understand is why some people think cracking games is wrong or illegal or something. Let me state unequivocally that using a crack on a game is neither illegal nor unethical, if and only if you legally own the game. It's your right to be able to use software you paid for; Now, I'm not so sure that making a crack and posting it on the net for all the pirates is morally right, but as for killing Safedisc so your game works, go for it.

Kinda. More AFPL + sword of Damocles.

[Nailer]

According to its makers, it stops being Open Source if you exercise your rights under the AFPL and produce a LSB standard installation of WineX (also known as an RPM). Which is kinda sad - either its Open Source or it isn't.

I don't mind a good closed source app (I'm a WineX subsciber), its just that I think WineX isn't a half bad product but you'd be surprised by the amount of people (users new to Linux) who jump on IRC, try an incredibly broken CVS install and then think that WineX is an unstable pile of shit because CVS often is. I think this odd licensing is bad for Transgaming too.

As a system administrator, I also find the idea of installing software in any other method than RPM very bad practice.

As for linux gaming ...

[Gyorg_Lavode]

I know many EQ players who are computer literate and more than willing to use linux if it weren't for the games that keep them in Windows most of the time. I have been told, exactly, that "if I could get the games I want for linux I would use linux". Wine is moving in that direction. I admit that I am VERY much more motivated to buy games that have native linux binaries, but for those games that don't that I still want to play, I will run them on linux if there is an advantage, (which there usually is since my linux computer is signifigantly better than my windows computer).

As for the people who don't have 2 (or 4 or more) computers that want to run linux but are tied to their games, there are games that will come out for linux, and there are games that will never come out for linux. Wine helps bridge that gap and this release of wine may very well bring a signifigant number of people over to linux.

I thought this was available for awhile....

[dasunt]

I distinctly remember someone commenting on how they preferred EQ in Wine because they didn't have to run it full screen.

There was a win32 hack to EQ awhile back for windowed play, but I think updates later broke it. Which is rather sad. Not everyone wants to run their games full screen.

Re:I thought this was available for awhile....

[willpost]

Verant usually bans players that they find using any un-official Everquest programs to do things that the other players can't do. This includes running Everquest in a window or decoding the net traffic to the machine.

Re:I thought this was available for awhile....

[dpete4552]

You're obviously very uninformed.

1. You have never been able to play EverQuest in Wine or any Windows "emulator" (as they are refered to as)

2. The program to play EverQuest in a window currently works and has always been updated to continue to work ever since it was first released. http://eqwindows.com/

Download WineX on...

[Anonymous Coward]

...alt.binaries.warez.linux

its all there... go grab it.

Open Source my arse

[rweir]

Just don't actually try to exercise any of your rights.

What's next?

[mbogosian]

The latest release of Transgaming's WineX (details available here) now supports EverQuest.

In other news, Transgaming has announced future plans to support bulk heroin distribution and high-margin cocaine resale.

bleh

[Anonymous Coward]

winex is shit it's just too slow

windows XP rocks, i dont know what the problem is with re-booting, gee - it takes like all of 30 seconds

fuckin linux worshippers

Re:bleh

[matt-at-thinkrnd]

bitter aren't we... (-:

I don't have a problem with rebooting either, I do have a problem with having to maintian a massively bloated partition for windows that could be better used

Games are fine

[tzanger]

But when will we see some decent parallel port support? VMWare's too heavy for what many of us embedded people need; we just need decent Win32 parallel port accesses so we can connect up our in-circuit emulators and run the IDEs through WINE.

Re:Games are fine

[Fizzol]

That's not WineX's mission. Look to the regular Wine folks for that.

worms armageddon

[djinn87]

with every new version of wine or winex that comes out, i check to see if worms armageddon will work. unfortunately, i've never gotten even to the game selection screen. it's honestly the only app (or game) i've ever missed since switching to linux 4 years ago.

of course, i don't think there's all that much effort toward trying to make many year old games work.

Re:worms armageddon

[jpmorgan]

Worms Armageddon is really poorly written. I doubt if it'll ever work in Linux - it barely even works in Windows. :P

Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just great... I've seen living proof of what this game does to people. Someone I know has dropped out of high school, flunked out of college ( 0 GPA, still don't know how that is possible but it is ), and kicked out of his house.

AVOID EVERQUEST AT ALL COST LINUX USERS!
Oh yea, Friday October 18th there is a special on EverQuest Addictions on the Womens Entertainment channel on TV. If you have it, look it up and watch it so you can see how evil this game is.

Re:Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

did he drop out of highschool before or after he flunked out of college?

Re:Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

He dropped out of high school, mostly because he would skip school so damn much he couldn't keep grades up.

Later he got a GED (like that is hard at all).
He passed basic tests to get into a community college.
(all this while he continued to play EverQuest)
Now, he eventually got so pulled into the game and some guild that he flunked right out of college.
When his parents found out about the 0 GPA crap, they kicked him out because they weren't going to support him if he couldn't keep his act together.

Now, the last I've heard... he lives in an apartment hardly getting by with the job he has. He still plays EQ....

The game can and will ruin your life. Avoid it. The game is a drain on your soul. It's no more than a mental leech designed by Sony.

I could go into the abnormal social behavior the game causes too... but thats too much to write.

btw, the guild this poor sap plays in EQ is found here. http://www.thehouseofrequiem.com . He used to brag about being such an awesome web designer... *sighs*

He's a pathetic soul now... wasted energy.

Re:Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

A person with an addictive personality will find themselves spending undue resources (time, energy, money, whatever required) on whatever fulfills a lack in their life. The fact that some people prefer engaging interactive games to real life is not a fault in the game, it's a fault in the person who makes that choice. There are many people who play EQ and DAoC and other engaging, interactive games who have no such problem. Tarring all players and the game itself with the same 'loser' brush is irresponsible and unfair.

Joysticks do not work for some games.

[Zapdos]

I paid for 3 months support and downloads. I asked one three part question.

What joystick device does WineX use? How do I get joystick support for X-Plane, and I asked for the name of a WineX game/demo that joysticks are known to work for. I get a half assed instructions on how to install a joystick under kernel 2.4.x and ticket closed.

Well my joystick has always worked under Linux, I complained about the response, they said they answered my question, I asked them to reread the question, they then gave me the name of a demo, my joystick worked with that demo. They also said it was a their practice to close tickets without customer feedback. In general they were plain rude.

My joystick still does not work with X-plane, I would also like to have a descent combat flight simulator like Aces High both games load and run well except the joystick does not work!

Re:Joysticks do not work for some games.

[entrigant]

In this months and last months polls there has been one to improve joystick support. So stop your bitching and vote, like you're suppose to.

Re:Joysticks do not work for some games.

[Zapdos]

I vote with my money. They no longer get any.

Re:Joysticks do not work for some games.

[conway]

My joystick still does not work with X-plane [x-plane.com], I would also like to have a descent combat flight simulator like Aces High [flyaceshigh.com] both games load and run well except the joystick does not work!

Hey, I had the same problem, and fixed it :)
I wrote a major joystick improvement for wineX, and now joysticks work in Aces High. I also added POV hat support. See my page on how to run Aces High under winex here

Re:Joysticks do not work for some games.

[entrigant]

That's rather anti-productive. Instead of a little say in what happens now you have none. Just out of curiosity though, why did you end up spending money on a product you knew was a WIP when you apparantly did not want a product that was a WIP?

your sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mono will blow Ms Windows dot Net developers into the stone age

Correction: Mono devlopers will blow some guy in a trck stop restroom for $5.00.

WineX is an incomplete product.

[FooMasterZero]

For the most part I have never been really impressed with wine-x as a whole. I had issues with warcraft III and all i got from transgaming was something along the lines of "oh that don't work, sorry your SOL" kind of response.

One thing that irks me about winex and to complete the subject of this reply is that most Linux applications that i have actually bought, winex is the worst support oriented one yet. By this you will notice that nothing is ever mentioned on thier web site about using SuSE, and it isn't like SuSE isn't some backwater distro ? So why is it that SuSE seems to be silently ignored.

I guess they have investments mostly in mandrake and only support mandrake fully, and if the word "linux" is utter in a public forum red hat comes to mind.

I guess i take the stance that if you are making a linux product then you should at least support the big 3 (Mandrake, Red Hat, SuSE) and have instructions and more info for the Gentoo crowd. To me this would make wine-x a complete product.

For what it is worth i won't be updating my subscription, since this is really just a temporary fix and don't see much long term value in thier product as games are moving more and more to the console market. I play mostly on my PS2 anyhow warcraft 3 was a small exception. But now i just play on my Mac with no goofy tricks i just play it, which is all i wanted to do in the first place.

mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Myself being a former everquest addict, I must agree with parent. It took over my life for a whole year, failed highschool, etc. It was my life. I'm slowly recovering but its still EXTREMELY hard and every time I read something about that game it just makes me more depressed... As the parent said, AVOID EVERQUEST AT ALL COSTS! Its not worth it.

Mono needs WINE.

[_Sprocket_]

Its rather ironic when the origional post reads:

Do we need Wine anymore? Mono will open .Net programs for linux execution.

But to handle the GUI aspects of .Net, the Mono site reads:

System.Windows.Forms is currently being implemented using the Win32 API, we will be using WineLib on Unix systems to emulate the Win32 API.

Kind of a vicious little circle, isn't it?

Re:Wine is the way for linux games to GO!

[Doc Hopper]

It's a compelling argument you make. My office is currently investigating a Microsoft Outlook deployment. I eagerly searched for open-source/free software alternatives that achieve the same integrated functionality, and came up lacking.

It's better to use free software on a non-free operating system than to use no free software at all, but it's worthwhile to examine the possibility that the Cygwin project, among others, are making it easier for people to stay with Microsoft Windows than use GNU/Linux, just as it's worthwhile to wonder whether Wine and WineX are are keeping more people tied to Windows as well.

My personal experience? Administrators using Cygwin become very impressed with the power of the *nix-like environment. They begin using it on a day-to-day basis, and see no reason to stop using Microsoft Windows on their desktops.

Until the day they run up against the huge limitations of using Cygwin, be it the performance penalty, lack of target platform support in many popular software packages, or simply any one of a string of painful interoperability problems. They then install GNU/Linux on a second partition or a second machine, and experience the full power of the operating system, and amazing graphical user interfaces which have been blazing trails for the last 2 years that Microsoft has attempted to follow. In turn, the best innovations of the MS desktop have been integrated into these free projects, as well.

So I'd have to say that because of the enormous minority situation GNU/Linux is in, Cygwin and running free software applications on a proprietary operating system like Microsoft Windows is an excellent "Gateway Drug" for power users, and eventually lesser users. Likewise, being able to run non-free software on a free system eventually leads to the replacement of that non-free piece by those who value software freedom over the convenience or entertainment value of the non-free software.

From my point of view, all roads lead to the ultimate "killer app" of the GNU/Linux world: the General Public License and the open culture it forces on otherwise selfish individuals and corporations. Yep, it's viral, and those who wish to take away software freedom hate it. Heck, a lot of freedom-loving individuals hate it too because it infringes on *their* individual freedom by requiring them to contribute their code back to the common pool. Love it or hate it, it's the reason why people are migrating to GNU/Linux from proprietary systems (of all types) in unheard-of numbers.

Windows vs Linux

[rapidweather]

Anyone else notice this problem? (ot)
I notice that msie 6 "waits" 20 or 30 seconds before going to get the web page you have clicked on. I've seen this on several machines. Opera, Netscape, Mozilla for Windows and Linux don't exhibit this annoying trait. What is going on? It can't be in the windows dialup software, as Opera 6.05, for instance, dives right in and gets your page. It's so bad on Internet Explorer 6 sometimes, that it quits, and displays the "can't get the page" message! Now, about the topic at hand: Although one can now run Everquest on a Linux box, this seems to be the long way around, and wouldn't this require more cpu power, memory, etc than running Everquest on Windows 98 or XP?
I tried WineX once, and I wasn't impressed, but now, I suppose, it is greatly improved. (I just don't have the hardware to run it well)

Re:Windows vs Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you disabled proxy detection?

Tools->Internet Options->Connections->Lan Settings

Re:Kinda. More AFPL + sword of Damocles.

[alienw]

RPMSs are OK. Read the license. TG does discourage them (so there is an incentive to subscribe) but it's permitted legally.

Who modded this 'insightful'?

[Max Threshold]

So tell me, Anonymous Troll, have you actually tried any of these games with the latest WineX?

The day DAoC works is the day my Windows partition gets fragged. And there will be much rejoicing.

Talk to the game companies

[Blackknight]

You know, if we could get a few hundred thousand linux gamers to say, "I will only buy your game if you release a linux version", would be pretty effective.

There is no reason that games cannot be written for Linux just as they are for Windows. There's just no financial incentive to do so right now.

Emulate to a point...

[Joe U]

If the emulation becomes complete, then you wind up with the Commodore 128 problem.

Why develop for the 128 when you could use that nifty Commodore 64 mode that was built in. The 128 platform became a joke because of this.

Re:Emulate to a point...

[Myxx]

Sadly you are right. I almost NEVER used the 128 mode on that machine. GO64!

Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they will still need to reboot if they want to do anything remotely interesting or current with their computer. Sorry...Linux is simply not ready for the desktop.

Re:Hmmm

[Daengbo]

Hmmmm... It seems to be ready for the desktop at my Language school: six diskless workstations all run off of a duron 850 with 256Mb RAM. Total investment in computers and networking: about 55,000 baht, or US$1200. But then maybe that's because we only need an office suite and a web browser for the database, the groupware, and the instructioal software.

WineX Binaries

[Anonymous Coward]

I noted with interest that pre-compiled binaries are only available to WineX subscribers. I noted with interest that there *were* WineX subscribers.
Whilst I'm all in favour of Transgaming turning a profit, It seems a little misguided to be passing the bill to consumers (who have already forked out for the game), instead of publishers (who are the ones really reaping the rewards).
I also noted that they make the source (sans-Safedisc etc) available for free. In that vein, has anyone made precompiled (sans-Safedisc) binaries from the CVS tree available for download?
If so, where?
If so, what was Transgaming's take on this?

Washington Irving

uptime

[swankypimp]

Given that:
a) most Everquest addicts only eat/sleep/shower after a Windows BSOD ends their 15 hour EQ session;
b) Linux can run for months or even years without a reboot;
I conclude that this is a bad idea.

Nope. Grandfather post is right

[0x0d0a]

On my system, which (at one point) had WinNT 4.0 on it as well as my Linux install, running Q3A yielded slightly better frame rates under Linux.

I'm dubious about OGL running slower

[0x0d0a]

I'm in a class taught by one of the people that recently was doing work on the UT engine, and he seems to pretty strongly prefer OGL.

Come to think of it, Nvidia liked OGL over DX as well (easier to get support for new features in).

Uhrmacher's Theorem

[ez76]

You have neglected Uhrmacher's Theorem, which states that every new technological development will find first application in gaming and pornography.

Re:Wine is the way for linux games to GO!

[0x0d0a]

I eagerly searched for open-source/free software alternatives that achieve the same integrated functionality, and came up lacking.

What, precisely, is it that you want "integrated"?

Administrators using Cygwin...

CygWin is awfully slow. When I'm on Windows, I stick with the native, though less capable (i.e. no usable alternative shell) UnxUtils and CygWin.

God, Windows has an *awful* virtual terminal, though. I keep wishing that I could use PuTTY's interface to talk to the local machine directly.

Can You Actually Alt-Tab out?

[wahay]

From a few other posts here, it looks like you can Alt-Tab out of the game without crashing out. If this is true, I have a list of Windows-only gamers as long as my arm who will switch to linux in a heartbeat. Sitting in MMOs for hours without the ability to check your IMs, email, or edonkey status....it's torture. And logging out is not an option. If wine is a solution to the Alt-Tab "bug" in all the MMOs, we could find a serious 'switch' campaign topic.

Re:Can You Actually Alt-Tab out?

[PsyQ]

No need to buy WineX for that.

If you play Dark Age of Camelot, try out DAOx, which will let you play DAoC in a window - so you can alt-tab.

If you play EverQuest, try eqw. Same as above.

Anarchy Online, Ragnarök Online and Ultima Online can already be played in a window. Any others that still suffer from "forced full-screening"?

Re:Can You Actually Alt-Tab out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could ditch 98/Me or whatever crap you are using in favour of a real OS, like W2k. Not that Linux is a bad alternative as such, but go for the real reason.

Why does anyone play EQ anymore?

[DrXym]

The Wine team should be applauded for trying to make EQ work but EQs time has been and gone. I played EQ for nearly 2 1/2 years and I have to say that in the beginning it was fun. But slowly (perhaps too slowly) it began to dawn on me that the game is actually incredibly, tediously boring. I bit the bullet and quit and I'm glad I did.

Starting a new character and levelling to about 15 is quite fun. But after that it is dull and repetitive. There is no sense of accomplishment or variety to the game, you go up a level, get a few new skills, kill different creatures, you twink, you camp (a lot), you craft, you sit around, /auc twink gear and you repeat over and over. Perhaps with new levels you get to visit different places and watch your experience bar slowly crawl through to the next level. Nothing you do affects the environment, the physics model sucks (creatures running through walls etc.) and the game engine is so grossly inefficient that its impossible to play in some zones. The user interface is also plain awful. Expansion packs helped a bit, but some such as the Shadows of Luclin so utterly fucked up performance (even if you didn't buy it) and a subscription rise were the final nail in the coffin. It was clear Verant were more interested in putting in new zones and ubergear than fixing fundamental and obvious problems in the game.

I'm not saying other MMPORPGs of the same generation are much better either. I tried Asherons Call (excruciatingly boring and crap graphics) and Dark Age of Camelot (beautiful UI & scenery but anally retentive looting and other misfeatures).

Still I guess that Wine would benefit from supporting EQ if only because whatever had to be implemented to support it will benefit other games and apps too. I recall that Wine couldn't do CreateProcess calls properly and perhaps that is what has changed to support the EQ launching mechanism.

Emulates Windows, doesn't emulate x86

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't emulate the CPU. That's what it means by 'not an emulator'.

Re:Kinda. More AFPL + sword of Damocles.

[Dog and Pony]

As a system administrator, I also find the idea of installing software in any other method than RPM very bad practice.

That must be this weeks strangest remark, even for slashdot. :)

As a system administrator (among other things), I find that using RPMs are the sure path to unmaintainability and broken systems. Considering that it is *easier* to build from source as well as less problems, I can't imagine any serious admins using RPMs.

Debians apt system at least keeps track of dependencies and test the stuff they release... but RPMs? Give me a break. Just do something else while the source compiles, and you will save yourself a lot of future problems. And you'll often get better software. :)

Everquest.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I LOVE YOU TRANSGAMING

Re:Kinda. More AFPL + sword of Damocles.

[Nailer]

I find your post quite typical of /. myself: loud, rude, lacking supporting arguments, and illustrating a fundamental misunderstanding of your topic.

As a system administrator (among other things), I find that using RPMs are the sure path to unmaintainability and broken systems.

Why not provide some supporting arguments? I'll go first: standardized install, uninstall, querying, verification, GPG signing, and repeatability, LSB compliance.

Considering that it is *easier* to build from source as well as less problems

Er, if you think that building from source is somehow seperate from RPM than you have very little understanding of the packaging system you're dismissing.

Debians apt system at least keeps track of dependencies and test the stuff they release...

Huh? Comparing apt to RPM makes no sense and again shows very little knowledge of packaging systems and their function. rpm and dpkg are packaging systems. up2date, apt, and urpmi are frontends (which all work on top of RPM - one works on top of dpkg too) to index the packages and then resolve dependencies using these indexes. Again, comparing a front end to a packaging system makes little sense. Again, there are many other tools that to automatically resolve dependencies using Linux Standard Base (RPM) packages and these tools have existed for years (in up2date's case, since Red Hat 6).

Re:Wine is the way for linux games to GO!

[Doc Hopper]

> What, precisely, is it that you want "integrated"?

At this point, I want just a few, simple things that I take for granted in a business accounting package:
* Automated invoicing. This means that I enter the invoice information, and the accounts receivable information is automatically entered into my books. Also, that I can print out the invoice from the accounting package, and record that I printed it. Envelope labelling based on invoice information, and the ability to get the address information when I click on the accounts receivable entry would be a nice bonus.
* Check printing
* Payroll "understanding". I mean, enter the tax information for the employee one time, and from that point on when you verify gross pay the taxes will already be resolved.

These three things would make a business accounting package usable for me. At this point, GNUCash is a nice personal finance utility, but fairly inadequate for business usage. If it annoys me enough, eventually I may get around to writing some modules for it, but my business has been shelved temporarily (due to the economic climate) while I do a regular, full-time gig to pay the bills :)

>native, though less capable (i.e. no usable alternative shell) UnxUtils

I've used unxutils as well. They are OK. For routine, automated systems administration, though, they are simply maddening! I'm not terribly concerned about the latest software rollout working "fast", so Cygwin's slowness is irrelevant. I just want the software update rolled out across some 300 NT/2K workstations at some point over the course of the day.

However, I've tried to use cygwin to run KDE before (in hopes that I could somehow have an "integrated" platform to work from, using the GNU/Linux interface with which I'm familiar, running atop Win32), and it definitely is incredibly slow for some apps. Wine is lightyears ahead of Cygwin, performance-wise, IMHO. Of course, we're comparing apples and beach balls, here, so it's entirely my subjective opinion.

Get linux native Tomb Raider =p

[Mongoose]

Dude:

http://openraider.sf.net

I'm getting it ready for multiplayer and per pixel lighting too. I'm just waiting for the parts to my new machine and some free weekend. ;)

Re:Wine is the way for linux games to GO!

[0x0d0a]

You know, you generate more pure textual data per time unit than anyone I've ever seen on Slashdot. :-)

Wine is lightyears ahead of Cygwin, performance-wise

I'd be more inclined to say that the Linux underpinnings are lightyears ahead of the Windows underpinnings...running on an operating system without support for shared fork and a couple of other fundamental features, there's not a lot that the cygwin guys can do.

Re:Wine is the way for linux games to GO!

[Doc Hopper]

> You know, you generate more pure textual data per time unit than anyone I've ever seen on Slashdot. :-)

Non-geek translation: I write too much :-) I'm thinking of starting my own blog so that I can expound in more detail, and simply provide a link from Slashdot so I don't exposit more than the underpinnings of the argument in the thread of the discussion, saving the reams of ruminations for another forum...

> I'd be more inclined to say that the Linux underpinnings are lightyears ahead of the Windows underpinnings

Again, I concur. However, I try to avoid such language generally because people come to regard it as flamebait for a Microsoft Windows vs. GNU/Linux debate. That said, many Linux kernel abilities (such as true multithreading) are of comparatively recent date... there's definitely some mutual "chasing the taillights" going on.

Interesting to me, however, is that Microsoft Windows NT development was inaugurated in 1987, with release in 1993. Linus Torvalds unleashed the Linux kernel on August 25, 1991. It seems the reality is that GNU/Linux, far from being an "upstart" operating system, predated Microsoft's second 32-bit operating system (OS/2 was their first) by two years. However, it's tough for me to be positive of the data prior to 1995, when I discovered GNU/Linux and started goofing with it from time to time, finally using it seriously and full-time in 1997.

The usual weasel-words apply: the .01 Linux kernel was not yet ready for prime-time, real threading was not introduced until the 2.2 series (with varying definitions of "real"), yadda yadda yadda. Fundamentally, the operating system that "took over the world" was Microsoft Windows 95. It has now been largely abandoned in favor of Windows XP, just released last year. For much of the last seven years, however, GNU/Linux has remained fundamentally the same: a 32-bit UNIX-like kernel using free GNU tools. No painful migrations, like for MS Windows users in 1995, to a 32-bit shell running on a 16-bit operating system.

My personal feeling is, with tools like WineX, we are bringing more and more advantages to the GNU/Linux table. People I know are converting, or at least running a second box to check it out, which would have been almost unheard of outside of geek circles seven years ago. The consensus-based development model for many free software projects may be a very slow process, but it is one that develops an enormous momentum. Eventually, Windows users that are accustomed to making upgrades every 2-4 years will simply make the ultimate upgrade to a GNU/Linux system.

Wow, cripes, I'm lapsing philosophical this morning. And long-winded, as always.

DAoC

[Andy Dodd]

It IS possible (read the forums) to get beyond the patcher.

The patcher opens up a VERY large number of files, larger than the default max # of open files under most distros. There's info on the forums on how to increase this number.

Of course, you don't get very far beyond the patcher... :(

Huh?

[Andy Dodd]

What's your problem with his post?

He states that DAoC doesn't run under WineX, and that the people on Transgaming's site have actively been devoting any and all RPGs with a scant few exceptions. (I've seen this firsthand. I retaliate by negatively nuking every non-RPG I see.)

You then state that DAoC is the only thing keeping Windows on your machine...

p.s. What server/realm? 44 theurg (Ezra) Lancelot Albion

DX superior?

[Andy Dodd]

I think John Carmack would disagree with you here.

In fact, a few years ago, after leaving MS, the guy in charge of marketing DirectX admitted that DX was inferior to OpenGL and had some SERIOUS flaws. (Mainly, a REALLY ugly and unclean API - GLQuake was done in a VERY short time, whereas Carmack said that after looking at the ugliness of the DX APIs he didn't even know where to start)

Let's not forget that a lot of features that are "bleeding edge" in DX are usually standardized long before in OpenGL. (This can be attributed to the fact that OGL has a heritage in high-end graphics, which usually leads consumer 3D by a year or two or more, or at least used to.)

Also, OpenGL is fully cross-platform, wherease DX is extremely closely tied down to Win32 - Another strike against DX.

Go away troll...

[Andy Dodd]

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. The "alt-tab" bug is an APPLICATION problem, not an OS problem. (Well, maybe a generic Win32 problem)

Win2k doesn't help you in the situations the original poster is talking about. Neither does XP. I have firsthand experience with this issue with DAoC under 98SE, Win2k, and WinXP. (Currently running 2k)

Last Post!

[alpg]

Fellow programmer, greetings! You are reading a letter which will bring
you luck and good fortune. Just mail (or UUCP) ten copies of this letter
to ten of your friends. Before you make the copies, send a chip or
other bit of hardware, and 100 lines of 'C' code to the first person on the
list given at the bottom of this letter. Then delete their name and add
yours to the bottom of the list.

Don't break the chain! Make the copy within 48 hours. Gerald R. of San
Diego failed to send out his ten copies and woke the next morning to find
his job description changed to "COBOL programmer." Fred A. of New York sent
out his ten copies and within a month had enough hardware and software to
build a Cray dedicated to playing Zork. Martha H. of Chicago laughed at
this letter and broke the chain. Shortly thereafter, a fire broke out in
her terminal and she now spends her days writing documentation for IBM PC's.

Don't break the chain! Send out your ten copies today!
For example, if \thinmskip = 3mu, this makes \thickmskip = 6mu. But if
you also want to use \skip12 for horizontal glue, whether in math mode or
not, the amount of skipping will be in points (e.g., 6pt). The rule is
that glue in math mode varies with the size only when it is an \mskip;
when moving between an mskip and ordinary skip, the conversion factor
1mu=1pt is always used. The meaning of '\mskip\skip12' and
'\baselineskip=\the\thickmskip' should be clear.
-- Donald Knuth, TeX 82 -- Comparison with TeX80

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