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Boston TV Signals Disrupting Police Radio in NJ
jeffy124 writes "WCVB, a digital TV station in Boston, is disrupting police radio communications in South Jersey. It seems that under certain weather conditions, the signal reaches here travels 270 miles (it's normally 50) and blacks out the police frequencies, making communication between officers and from 911 call centers impossible. The article seems to suggest that as more TV stations go digital, more small-town police radio will be affected, as the digital signal is significantly stronger than analog. Insert Joisey-joke here."
I thought I was in with a chance with this one, but NOOO. eh, maybe next time...
I think it's a safe bet that we'll see more donut commercials on digital television broadcasts- it ensures that it reaches the best possible demographic that will be influenced by donut commercials (cops, of course).
once again commercialism (excuse the pun) wins out over public safety.
Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
NJ got all the toxic waste dumps. You see, California drew the short straw and got all the lawyers.
Really? What frequency?
--
Damn the Emperor!
Maybe this will slow down the adoption of the Digital TV...
tropospheric ducting.
Ok, this is slightly OT, but speaking as someone who lives in Southern NJ, I would like to state for the record that no one around here speaks with that type of accent. We all pronounce Jersey with the letter R, thanks!
:)
Most people have a large misconception about New Jersey, especially thinking that it all looks like Newark, every woman has huge hair and long fingernails, and that none of us pronounce the letter "R". While this isn't entirely untrue (head up to Northern NJ to see what I mean), it does not describe the area of NJ being affected by the Boston signals. As I always say, they should split up Northern & Southern NJ, and combine the Dakotas.
Back on topic, I saw this story on the local news here tonight. It's a very big problem, as peoples lives can potentially be at stake. This is something we will be seeing a lot more of in the future; we already have frequency problems with 802.11, and now it seems that TV broadcasts will be continuing the trend.
OK. I'm from New Jersey and I don't appreciate jokes making fun of my state. It's not cool and it's not funny.
How about if I made some FAT jokes about overweight computer programmers? I bet that'd feel shitty too.
Let's keep the insults to a minimum...
thanks.
Shut these TV terrorists down!
Anybody who watches TV is a moron anyway (exceptions: Discovery Channel is okay, as is watching any Star Trek series)
Boston broke New Jersey, go Boston!
Now if NJ would split off at the Delaware River and fall into the ocean PA would be even better, well if it takes Philly with it (like it's part of PA anyways).
OK I'm in position
Cue the comercial...now!
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
How is it that the FCC registered digital TV frequencies overlap the FCC registered police emergency frequencies at all, miles apart or no?
Are we talking too much power on the TV's sideband, bleeding into the police frequency?
Are we talking a grandfathered police operation when the frequencies were reallocated to digital TV where the cops have had years now to realize that they were playing with fire and replace their communications system?
Surely the FCC didn't intentionally allocate a police frequency smack in the middle of the exact same bands they set aside for digitial TV. So what's the real story?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
...New Jersey is where he would stick the hose!
I work for a PBS station in VA, WHRO. We are currently being sued by a station WBOC-TV Salisbury, Md to stop the rollout of our Digital TV because it disrupts their signal on the Chesapeake side of the water.
From what I understand of the problem their were bad assumptions made by the FCC when it came to the digital signal.
1. That it would not bounce and doppler like analog signal does. Well it turns out it is even more prone to it than analog was due to the higher frequencies and watages involved.
2. That this would not affect a $Properly setup atena. Seems reasonable until you find out what the variable properly is. Apparently the FCC does not care about interference unless the atena is aligned directly towards the sending tower (that never happens and varies from channel to channel) and that it is not higher than 30 feet (one story home. Any deviation from that and it becomes your problem, not theirs.
This is also not the first case of this to happen. Their are previous cases in california and milwauke. Read more
here
This is going to crop up as more and more channels go digital. You will start seeing it reported more as stations start to battle each other. The sad part is that most likely the FCC will wash their hands initally and the airwaves will become as if the FCC does not exist.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
I used to do a lot of flying and can attest that high-frequency navigation signals travels maybe 70 miles line-of-sight at 2000 feet -- the height of some broadcast antennas -- and farther at higher altitudes. But reflections were weak or nonexistent.
Communication frequencies, and this is aviation only, numbered some 720 (it's been a few years). Police communications are probably just as narrow and could be slotted any number of places, and being low-altitude would not cause much town-to-town interference. But instead they plant it in a frequency spread reserved for TV? (TV channel bandwidth is astonishing, dominating most of the available spectrum to deliver Gilligan's Island reruns and professional wrestling.)
I know some people are excited by the advent of digital programming -- no, wait, actually I don't know any, though most agree it looks neat -- but the way the equipment manufacturers and FCC colluded to ram digital down the throats of consumers and broadcasters stinks. I for one will hang onto my analog set until the picture is no more than a faint flicker.
Ok, I'm the submitter. I see a few posts denouncing the "Joisey" reference. I'm from NJ. It takes a sense of humor to live in NJ. I know that SJ is vastly different from the smokestacks of Newark.
Am I the only person who lives in NJ with a sense of humor?
(oh, and for the record, I live between exits 3 and 4)
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
I heard this once but never confirmed it: Is it true that Air Force One's broadcast system uses the same frequency as, and occasionally interferes with, garage door openers?
What NJ needs to do is come up with lots more good Manhattan jokes. They're where most of your abuse originates, and believe they need you. Without you, they're nothing, just another parochial island, they might as well sink into the water.
... better than no humor at all.
I dated someone who defected to NYC (Manhattan of course) and got tired of "The City" religion quick.
Of course it is important to have a good sense of humor about bad humor
Just in case you would like to know what tropospheric ducting is.
Growing up in the southern california desert, on the fringe of the los angeles broadcaster's coverage area, we would regularly get nasty interference on the lower vhf channels 2-9. one evening it was particularly strong: the picture was completely obliterated and replaced by video from the interfering station. Being able to see the video, we discovered the signal originated from philadelphia!
Are broadcasters jazzed about Digital TV (do they hope to make more money) or is it mostly a headache?
I can see it now: "We better get over to Maple and 10th, Sergeant Friday is making a bust; it sounds like the perps got 'Reefer Madness' and Ponch is down, I repeat PONCH is DOWN!"
The only people that call it "Joisey" are New Yawkers.
Alright now I have to speak up. I live in north jersey and no one here speaks without the "r", in fact ive never even heard that. What we do do though is turn some "a"s into "o"s. Ex: its not tomato its tamato. Looks weird on print but it sounds right to me.
About the newark thing, some of jersey does look pretty damn shitty, but if you go west, belive it or not, there are farms, with real cows. I live in a pretty rich area and I think its beatiful here. Belive it or not, I love NJ!
What signature defines me as a person?
It stinks!
the parent is supposed to be called re: Jerser Joke or whatever, mozilla accidently filled that in
What signature defines me as a person?
And yet you still can't get reception through anything sturdier than a paper bag, let alone an apartment building.
According to the information I have, the radio system used by the police and other law enforcement in this area is in the 800MHz range, in analog mode, I may be incorrect in this but I thought that digital TV would still be used within the normal UHF/VHF range, meaning the output frequency (of the TV transmitter) would be broadcasting at a significantly lower frequency in accordance with the 800MHz band. If anyone would like to confirm this or make corrections feel free to do so
I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Radio interference where a signal travels farther than intended and interferes with other communications is an old problem, and inherent in most communication methods in use. Its a technical problem, and should be treated like one with resolution in an objective manner. The digital T.V. station should probably change the frequency its using (since the police radios may not be able to without buying new ones)
[cop] breaker breaker we have a
*shhkt*
Johnny!. Don't you walk out on
*shhhkkt*
a caucasian male running down to
*shhkkt*
The LOVE boat...
*shhlkt*
suspect changing direction, now he
*shhhkkt*
was the president of the united states, saying
*shhhkt*
God dammit! where the hell is that
*shhkt*
sheik condom. Barely there for the most pleasure
=)
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
VHF / UHF Tropospheric Ducting Forecast Maps
These maps graphically display unstable signal areas.
Quote from the website:
The areas noted in the forecast have the necessary atmospheric conditions to produce tropospheric bending of UHF or VHF TV and radio waves. Tropospheric bending extends the range of stations well beyond their normal limit. Distant reception along straight line paths becomes possible..though the longer the path, the higher the Index required. The pursuit of distant stations is called "DXing".
Why did the chicken cross the turnpike?
To go down the shore for a grinder.
He didn't specify funny Joisy joke . . .
Trucker: breaker 1-9
Police Officer: but she only committed a misdemeanor.
can't wait to see the ratings on this one.....
http://www.vanillaafro.com - take me seriously and I will shoot you
Under FCC regulations, any interference with official bands (IE, police, fire, ambulance) by a TV station is considered illegal by law and MUST immediately stop of be fined per day per channel that experiences the interference.
This occurred with one cable TV station over in one town that i stayed in. They had brought up another channel into their lineup using AINCENT cable equipment that generated a harmonic with the City police's repeater and caused massive interference with their communications. The city immediately moved and filed a complaint with the FCC on this and the Gov't submitted a court order stating that the cable company shut down ALL services until this issue was cleared up. The channel was immediately shut down and the station was shifted to another channel that was more clearer and did not cause any further problems.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
Slashdot, a "News for Nerds" service located somewhere, is disrupting a CourierPost Online by extensive amount of signalling sent over internet. According to the analysis of the slashdot effect, the "signal" level reaches the rate of around 270 signals per minute (it's normally less than 50) and partially blacks out the official content. Making communication between the subscribers and CourierPost Online more difficult. The article seems to suggest that as more slashdot readers go online, more websites will be affected, as the signalling rate will be significantly stronger than before. Insert Joisey-joke here.
Insert Joisey-joke here.
Hey! We don't really tawk like that.
> How is it that the FCC registered digital TV
t ermod.ht mls in.h tml
> frequencies overlap the FCC registered police
> emergency frequencies at all, miles apart or no?
I suspect there is no frequency overlap, although
the frequencies may be "close" together.
A strong signal on a nearby frequency can often
overwhelm typical radio receiver designs.
In particular, the "super heterodyne" FM receiver
design is susceptible to "intermodulation
distortion" which involves the sum of sine waves
on other frequencies.
Radio frequency filters (notch or pass filters)
can be put in line between the radio and antenna
so as to reduce the strength of such
interfering signals (on nearby frequencies).
Sometimes the frequencies need not be all that
"near" in order to cause intermodulation.
Improved receiver design can also help!
I should be able to dig up some references.
How about these:
http://www2.arrl.org/tis/info/intermod/in
http://members.tripod.com/michaelgellis/mixer
I'm surprised how few introductory explanations of radio-frequency intermodulation I found using google (e.g. with "radio intermodulation").
Let the Jersey jokes continue!
Why are New Yorkers so damned Depressed?
B/C the light at the end of their tunnel is New Jersey.
Homer: I'm looking for something loose and billowy, something comfortable for my first day of work.
Salesman: Work, huh? Let me guess. Computer programmer, computer magazine columnist, something with computers?
Homer: Well, I use a computer.
Salesman: [quietly, to self] Yeah, what's the connection? Must be the non-stop sitting and snacking. [more audibly] Well, sir, many of our clients find pants confining, so we offer a range of alternatives for the ample gentleman: ponchos, muumuus, capes, jumpsuits, unisheets, muslim body rolls, academic and judicial robes --
Homer: I don't want to look like a weirdo. I'll just go with a muumuu.
Slow down??? That would assume that people are adopting digital tv in the first place. In fact survey's have shown that digital tv is catching on at a snail's pace. The reason? The cost and the benefit. In most areas (mine included) the digital cable is extremely expensive (about 75% more than regular cable), and what does it give me? Slightly better picture quality? Really, I'd be better to invest my money in a better TV set than digital cable, especially for the small ammounts of TV I watch (firefly, NBC news, CSI).
Not to mention that Digital Cable is more expensive (at least in my neighborhood) than the dish. Plus the dish offers a slightly better option given it has more channels for people who care about those things.
Personally I doubt that digital tv in general will be very slow to catch on.
it ain't gonna happen.
Insert Joisey-joke here.
"Does all of Jersey look like an episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force? And do all guys act like Carl?
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
California and Texas both have more superfund sites than NJ. And Gary, Indiana puts Newark to shame
..........FULL STOP.
Reporter: How does this make you feel, knowing that cops may not be able to receive necessary 911 information? Area Man: Heh, heh. Fuggiddaboudit.
Mordor...a magical, mythical land where women are more rare than dragons--but where every man would rather find a dragon
Why bother, I can have someone do it for me (in the freezing snow, rain, spiners, etc), it keeps my hands from smelling and it's cheaper than most of the country.
Do you cook your own hamburgers/steaks when you go out and eat? - no someone doe sit for you.
..........FULL STOP.
(Yes, for those that don't know, the cable company has both digital signals (i.e. HBO, PPV, etc) and analog signals (i.e. the local networks and basic channel line-up) going to the cable box.)
Digital cable is using MPEG compression to compress the video, but they seem to be pushing the quality vs compression ratio too far towards compression.
Cable here offers more channels that a dish does here, and about the same price for the same channels.
Shoot Pixels, Not People!
Instead of learning how to pump gas, we learn extortion, how to make it look like an "accidental" death, how to hide a body/evidence, how to whack people and not make a mess on our suits, and how to get even.
Get the idea
Don't mess with Jerseyans.
..........FULL STOP.
"Slashdot, new for nerds, stuff that matters"
First there was the pumpkin PC, then the Dune book, and now a story that takes pertains only to NJ. I am officially suing slashdot for breach of contract.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
I'm from NJ, a friend sent me this site, and basically all of them are true at one time or another.
Jay Sherman (in a straight jacket): It stinks!
Psychiatrist: Yes Mr. Sherman. Everything Stinks...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
From the /. article header...
"The article seems to suggest that as more TV stations go digital, more small-town police radio will be affected, as the digital signal is significantly stronger than analog..."
Actually, the type of modulation (digital or analog) has little to do with the signal "strength" (which is a function of transmitter power output, transmission line losses, and antenna design and orientation).
Now, with that said, digital modulation, being much closer to a square wave than an analog voice signal, is much richer in HARMONICS than said analog signal.
I've lost count of how many times I've heard interference from digital paging transmitters bleeding into ham radio repeaters. The harmonics from the digital modulation mix with the transmitter's carrier, and that of whatever other transmitters happen to be on the same hilltop, and close to the same frequency range. It sounds awful, and it looks even worse on a spectrum analyzer screen.
The problem may be correctable through (as others have pointed out) better receiver design, in terms of filtering, and good installation practices being followed where the transmitter and antenna system are concerned. Good filtering and modulation techniques at the transmitter end won't do any harm either.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Geena Davis: "Easy, sport. I got myself out of Beirut once, I think I can get out of New Jersey."
Sam Jackson: "Yeah, well don't be so sure. Others have tried and failed... The entire population, in fact."
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
...my TV was picking up radio signals from the local hospital. I'd turn it on and listen to all the code blues being called out.
No. What's wrong with Jersey jokes? Yeah, when they're not funny, or they're unorigional, they're not funny just like anything else. But it's not like we're some kind of persecuted minority. Give it a rest and lightern up. I really hope you're just trolling and you're not serious.
By the way, I've lived in NJ most of my life (currently in Jackson, by Six Flags Great Adventure), and your little argument isn't any more convincing because of that.
Touch everywhere, even when inappropriate.
Digital television won't affect small towns very badly. Many small towns are still on the 460 mHz band, rather than the higher bands that Digital TV will use. Remember, the FCC is clearing out the lower broadcast bands and moving everything up into the UHF and Microwave bands, where police don't do a whole lot of talking.
Trying is the First Step to Failing --Homer Simpson
It seems to me a rather bad and outdated idea to try broadcasting digital signals in this method.. using lots of power and just blasting the signal out for miles around. It makes more sense to devote more of the spectrum to the public it belongs to and use wireless networking to route the data intelligently to where it needs to go. If I can stream a DVD-quality movie over a fairly congested WiFi network at home I don't see why television couldn't be broadcast in the same way and quite a lot cheaper than building an expensive tower and licensing your own spectrum. The mesh networking units /.'d yesterday look like they'd work for this with few tweaks required. I'd probably create a smart routing protocol that'd let multiple users view the same stream rather than copying it along the route for each user but that isn't a new concept so it'd probably be possible to use off the shelf technology for that also.
:)
Anyone else find it odd that their cell phone and wifi equipment works fine but emergency dispatch equipment goes in the shitter? I knew the FBI used cell phones (well on X-Files at least) for good reason.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Is my "karma" gone yet?
Kewl.
Hey crackhead moderators, look at this too! I'm flaunting the Slashbork system! Do something about it, quick!!!
-magic
A lot of innacurate information has been passed around here.
UHF communication frequencies generally go from 450-470 mHz and were fully populated years ago. What the FCC did is to allocate certain UHF TV channels to communications, in the 470-512 range; ie TV channels (not cable channels) 14-20 for communications use in certain areas. The areas in question are laid out in a plan, so that in some areas a certain channel is used for TV and and in some areas that same channel is used for communications.
This came about because in a given area you cannot have adjacent TV channels used by TV or they interfere with each other. Also, UHF TV was never really popular with broadcasters and many channels were loped off on the upper end (ch 70-88 as I recall).
Thus it is perfectly in accordance with the FCC plan to have Channel 20 allocated to TV in Boston and to communications in Southern New Jersy. Up to now, however, channel 20 was never used in Boston, it was empty and now has been allocated to digital TV.
Analog TV stations must convert to digital by a certain date (2006, but keeps slipping....). During the interim period, the station may transmit Analog on its present channel, and digital on the new channel. This is precisely what WCVB is doing. Eventually the station will be strictly digital on Channel 20 and the Analog VHF transmission will terminate.
East coast atlantic tropospheric ducting is common and radio hams and others are well aware of it; I am surprised the FCC did not take this into account when they allocated the channels. If I had to speculate, I would say that the FCC will require WCVB to reduce power, use a directional antenna or change channels - which may be tricky. This will be fertile ground for hordes of lawyers.
You know how us Americans are... :)
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
This is actually an issue the other way as well.
As the FCC forces digital broadcast and begins to sell off the UHF and VHF ranges for communications equipment....what will happen if a TV station is still broadcasting.
For instance, in San Diego the local Fox affiliate actually has their broadcast tower in Mexico (they can get a permit for a stronger signal there). If a nationwide carrier developes communications equipment uses that part of the spectrum...their equipment won't work in San Diego.
How will the FCC control 'foreign' signals?
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
why did the dead baby cross the turnpike? it was stapled to the chicken!
//radiotakeover.
and those dregs from Staten Island are the only ones that say 'Joisey'. Nobody *from* Jersey calls it that. (Though you can find NYC migrants that will) I wasted 20 years of my life in the shit hole. I know. Christ, you'd think wide spread viewing of the the Sopranos would have killed this misconception by now.
I live in KY and I remember a few years back I was tuning through the FM dial in an old car with the analog style tuning dial.
:) Thanks!
Anyway I found a spanish radio station, and was very confused since we don't have any near by.
Turns out the station I was picking up originated from Waco Texas. It wasn't clear or anything, and it tended to fade in and out throughout the day then the next day it was gone...
I always wondered what caused that... I guess now I do!
I remember that in certain weather conditions it was possible to catch greek tv channels on Malta. Distance is quite comparable - over 500+ km.
Of course it occured when storms with ionised air travelled over Mediterrean sea.
come on jersey is the best state. where i live (new brunswick, where rutgers is at, BEAT MIAMI, yeah right) its 45 min to Philly, 45 min to NYC. Bout 3 hours to Boston and 3 hours to D.C. I love being in the armpit
Are they saying that under normal weather conditions it's only 50 miles from Boston to South Jersey but sometimes the distance increases to 270 miles? I think the ramifications of this go way beyond police radio...
You're living in the days of Mod Squad and Adam-12. Come out of your cave once in awhile. You think you're being funny, and it possibly would have been... 20 years ago. It's an immature and childish cliche' to suggest Law Enforcement Officers are donut gobbling neanderthals. The fact is, the vast majority of L.E. Officers are physically fit and avoid eating donuts or camping at donut shops. Donuts are for couch potato computer nerds who have nothing better to do than flame people who would give their lives to save your and your loved ones, and they have... far too much for the likes of you. The tables have turned NotAnotherReboot, YOU are the demographic they seek to entice. As are all your little followers, which I would wager are little more than dope smoking twirps who would kill for a donut right about now.
"It is essential that justice be done
FYI, the FCC has rearranged the television broadcast bands. The majority of the DTV channel allocations are inside a group of channels called "the core." The "core" channels are those that will still be in use for television broadcasting after the transition to DTV is complete. They are: 2-6 (low band VHF), 7-13 (high band VHF), and 20-51 (UHF). The article stated that the DTV station is on channel 20, so they appear to be where they are supposed to be.
So, if there is a solution to this problem, I would look to the "Land Mobile" world, where there never is enough spectrum, and where "creative" solutions to lack of spectrum space, such as using "vacant" TV channels come from.
However, I would not let Congress or the FCC off the hook. The primary motivation for this shifting around of TV channels is that Congress intends to auction off the so-called "700 MHz band" (consisting of UHF channels 52-69) to balance the Federal Budget.
RFI is no joke, especially when lives could be at stake. But this DTV station is doing exactly what Congress and the FCC ordered them to do, broadcast a digital TV signal on the channel assigned to them.
Every broadcast engineer I know (I am a television broadcast engineer in the San Francisco Bay Area) wants his or her station to be an asset to the community. RFI problems like this one do not make for good community relations, even when the "fault" for the problem lies elsewhere.
An analog gray hair frantically clinging to the trailing edge of technology.
In the Federal Aviation Administration, air traffic control authorities in a given area require the use of multiple frequencies within given channels. It facilitates communication with numerous aircraft by air traffic controllers at every stage of aircraft operation: en route, approach, landing and taxiing.
Congestion on the frequency caused by pilots and controllers trying to speak to one another is bad enough. Now, take away the frequency completely as area high school football scores drown out traffic advisories and control instructions, with only one emergency frequency in VHF.
Larger cities, in addition to being more likely to deal with digital television signals and on a greater scale than smaller communities, usually deal with much more air traffic. I'm not saying that I know a technical solution to this problem, because I don't. I do know that the aviation community's safety record is built on killing its own and figuring out the unsafe circumstances in retrospect.
Bottom line: don't trust the FCC, or any group of technical specialists, to see a larger picture just because it's obvious to you.
bash-2.05a$ ping 64.239.188.145
PING 64.239.188.145 (64.239.188.145): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=3 ttl=111 time=4551.057 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=4 ttl=111 time=4648.844 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=5 ttl=111 time=4453.418 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=6 ttl=111 time=4567.570 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=7 ttl=111 time=4413.351 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=8 ttl=111 time=4557.070 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=9 ttl=111 time=4360.145 ms
64 bytes from 64.239.188.145: icmp_seq=10 ttl=111 time=4074.501 ms
^C
--- 64.239.188.145 ping statistics ---
15 packets transmitted, 8 packets received, 46% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 4074.501/4453.244/4648.844/167.847 ms
Damn!!
So under normal weather conditions Boston is 50 miles from NJ, but in certain circumstances they're 270 miles apart? Do they have to close a bridge or something?
Oh, wait...
The transmitter tower in question can be seen here and here(large), up close here(large) with a view of various facilities here(large), here(large), and here(large). A view of the studio itself is here(large).
Where are you?
I worked in the engineering dept of a small cable TV company in western Connecticut a long time ago.
A customer had been complaining of interference on a particular channel, and was able to videotape what he saw: he was picking up a channel from Louisiana!
I'll let somebody else calculate the distance (figure New Orleans to Danbury), but I was certainly impressed...
Freaky!
-- If you don't understand it, blame it!
The duct covered roughly 1600km LOS on a few watts. I don't know if that's a record, but it certainly impressed me.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The license application for the 8VSB signal had to have gone through an FCC attorney, who would want the engineering reviewed by a consulting engineer. This is partially the fault of the consulting engineer, and mostly the fault of the FCC in not anticipating tropo.
The irony is in the fact that digital television is supposed to be predicated on the television stations giving up their VHF allocations for other purposes. The other purposes are digital communications for public safety -- police.
So until the VHF channels are vacated and the equipment manufacturers actually have type-accepted equipment for the new bands, the police in this community are basically screwed.
Or maybe they need to get a STA (special temporary authorization) and retune their equipment and get a new frequency.
Bruce Springstein: who is talkin' mean about Joisey?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
... the radio waves are noisy in joisey?
I would RTFA, but the link is broken.
However, I find this somewhat surprising. Most police band radios operate in the 800MHz trunking band, which is reserved just for that purpose.
I didn't think the FCC was allowing digital TV anywhere near those frequencies - in fact that is why UHF TV channels 68 and up (IIRC) were taken out of service - to make room for the public service trunking band.
I would guess that what probably happened was that the station in question was mixing with another signal, and spattering into the police band.
In all probability, the cops didn't hear what the station was transmitting - Jersey is using Motorola Astro trunking, perhaps even digital mode, so the cops' radios would simply have said "this isn't the signal I was looking for. Move along."
Does anyone have a link to a cache?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Jersey jokes? How about Bahston jokes? Imagine the horror of living 250 miles away from Reveeyah, and still having to listen to that accent pumped at you. Jersyites ought to fill a wicked-big class action suit.
Camden NJ for anyone who isn't from this area is so disgusting and violent that they felt left out when Detroit was burning the city for Halloween and decided they should do it too a few years ago.
The areas affected are areas where people who have jobs try to live and raise families. Meanwhile, the denizens of Camden proper use these areas as their shopping mall with constant break-ins, car theft and various other assorted means of 'urban' entertainment.
The smallest disruption in radio communications in these areas mean that Tyrone is free to come busting into your bedroom window and do as he pleases. Don't forget, NJ is a gun grabbing state and makes its residents completely dependent on the local police for any maintainence of order. Luckily the 'residents' of Camden don't use the internet because it's all a bunch of words or this would turn into a feeding frenzy without par since the 60's riots their ancestors used to get their TV's.
Also live from Montclair... I just get tired of people going on as if any old freak could live here (and why would they want to?) I'll have you know that you have to pass a strict exam in order to live in NJ....
AHHHHHHH! I'm burning with goodness again!
- Reakk, Sluggy Freelance
This is, of course, just a guess, but I don't see anyone else making it in the top batch of comments.
Tropospheric ducting has been mentioned. That's half the story. The other half is that older police/emergency-service radio exists around 50MHz, *near* - but not on - VHF television frequencies (IIRC, the 6M amateur band- also known as the 'TVI' band for television interference- exists as a buffer between the cops and the broadcasters). I don't remember exactly where UHF lives, but there may be other allocations interleaved between UHF broadcast blocks.
Now, with the switch to digital comes a switch to higher-power equipment, and the rapid modulation of the digital signal probably produces a number of stronger harmonics, especially when you're trying to wedge it into the existing 'low' frequencies television's carried on. The digital signal no-doubt runs at peak emitted power all the time, while analog TV has amplitude components, IIRC.
So, what this works out to is that, instead of occasionally hearing a bit of 60Hz hum or some audio leakage when tropo kicks up, the cops probably now have to work around interference as 'noisy' as your modem making a connection- and 'noisy' enough (in terms of audio components) that you can't simply filter it.
Maybe the FCC dropped the ball on this; in any case, other aspects of tropo (the local PD in Connecticut used to occasionally get openings to Texas!) have departments moving to UHF/microwave trunked systems anyway.
The article is talking about over the air (OTA) digital broadcasts which are unrelated (other than they are both bits) to digital cable. You are right, all of the digital cable I've seen has been way over-compressed, making the picture generally worse than the analog equivilent. OTA DTV in standard definition looks better than any analog cable and highdef shows like CSI:Miami and RHD look absolutely gorgeous.
Kiss her where it smells, take her to New Jersey.
How do the FCC and CRTC deal with this now in Canada-US border areas?
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I live in New Jersey. Answer: no.
I lived in another state for 4 years (College). Never did I sit in the car and wait endlessly for an attendant to come pump my gas, but I did do this: One day, I started pumping gas. Then I went into the store, did an ATM withdrawal, paid the clerk, maybe bought a sandwich or something, looked at the newspaper, walked out of the store, got in the car, and drove off...
SNAP!
Good thing that gas pumps actually have a connector that's designed to snap off in case an idiot like me drives off with the nozzle STILL IN THE TANK. I replaced the nozzle on the pump, kinda coiled up the hose next to it, and sped off.
Luckily, this was about a month before I moved back, so I never really had to use that gas station again. Of course, I drove past it a few times, and as far as I know it took at least a month to fix. And now, in Jersey, sometimes I get out of the car to pump gas, and everyone wonders what the hell I'm doing...
One word: Newark
True Story -
I have a friend who serves as a supervisor for a local police department - at a party he related the following story:
"So John, how was your week."
John replies: "Really bad, we had an officer involved shooting and it was embarrasing."
So I ask the obvious. "Why, was he at a donut shop or something."
John moans and says "Yes."
Have you compiled your kernel today??
...that Parcells went to the Jets. Doesn't matter that we won the Super Bowl.
Payback's a bitch mother*&^%er! ROFL!
"The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
Normally when a licensed or unlicensed (or unintended) operator causes interference then, regardless of their transmitting privileges (say 100W with a 4.5dB gain omni directional antenna at site A), they must change their transmissions (reduce power, new site and/or antenna) to not interfere or stop the transmitting.
This includes licensed taxi radios, licensed ham operators, and unintended radiators like power utility companies (transformers on poles -- pole pigs can produce RF harmonics when in need of repair).
So why not Digital TV broadcasters? Is it because it been a FCC pet project for what nearly 10 years now?
They just listened to each other's accents... "Hello this is Joisey police... what is your emergency?" "... at Haaaahvad. And in sports, thousands competited in this year's Bahston marathon..."
That's basically the bottom line. Its easier to spout a few stereotypes than it is to actually have any real knowledge.
The main problem is most people fly into Newark airport and think THAT is what NJ is like. Fact is Newark airport, and its surrounding area especially as you get closer to New York are just ugly industrial areas. The other 95% of the state is what gives it the name the Garden State. By percentage most of NJ is very rural wooded areas. The rest of it is normal communities just like in any other state. Also joking about the Turnpike is like joking about the 405 in California. I mean yes a lot of people who live near it take it, but its not like every other state in the nation doesn't have one road which is popular for crossing the state.
Anyway you may now continue on without your igornant stereotypes.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Why does this always happen?! Just last night I'm reading in Practical Antenna Handbook (excellent book, btw) about how atmospheric conditions can increase radio communications range.. and I check Slashdot this morning and there's a relevant story.
There is an international organization (ITU) to deal with this, and there are treaties that are *usually* followed in this regard. The US has very long borders with both Canada and Mexico and spectrum management has long been dealt with (not always perfectly).
The only good weather is bad weather.
The FCC wants digital TV for spectrum efficiency and modernity reasons. The movie industry wants it for better display, and of course now for DRM reasons. The broadcasters objected to the mandated expense, until things changed to allow them to sell additional services on it in addition to TV, and for them to use it to hold onto additional channels for a while.
The big problem with VHF/UHF broadcast TV in the US is that it is extremely wasteful of very valuable spectrum. There is a limited (by physics) amount of spectrum available for mobile applications, and broadcast TV takes about a third of it!
But... except for a few cases, broadcast TV does not NEED to operate on mobile spectrum. Almost all TV is either multipoint fixed, which can be done at much higher frequencies, or already carried by cable and consumes no air spectrum at all (except for leaks).
A more rational system would eventually phase out high power VHF/UHF TV broadcast - digital and analog, and let it be replaced by satellite and cable. The released spectrum could then be used for high spectral efficiency mobile communications, for which there is a rapidly growing demand.
The only good weather is bad weather.
Don't worry, you're not alone. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in the Midwest talks like the folks in the movie Fargo. Although I do enjoy my cheese and brats (not necessarily at the same time), I have no desire to milk cows or drive anything less than 20 miles over the speed limit.
>2. That this would not affect a $Properly setup atena
:)
>Their are previous cases in california and milwauke
Does it bother anyone else that a PBS worker cannot spell even simple words correctly? Maybe HE needs to be the one watching Sesame Street.
I am the FCC and I just screwed up, again.
The Mason-Dixon line, when extended eastward, divides New Jersey. There used to be a truck stop in NJ on one of the main roads just south of the line. Confederate flags and all of that stuff around. The worst of both worlds -- chitluns, hocks and hominy, NJ style, served by a NJ waitress.
is just plain weird. (and you thought the pine barrens were bad) I get in radio stations from new york in extreme southern jersey every once in awhile. it's strange.
see sig. see sig run. run sig run.
Oh I don't know... Hey, why don't we send US representatives down there to negotiate international issues? Hey, we could call them diplomats!
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The FCC has changed its mind about removing the low VHF channels from TV service. (my guess is the communications interests didn't want the lower frequencies - they require larger antennas - so the FCC gave them 52-59 instead) For example, channel 6, where the San Diego Fox affiliate operates, will remain in TV service in the U.S. indefinitely.
The FCC has bilateral agreements with Mexico and Canada for digital channel assignments. Canada has already assigned digital channels for all existing analog stations in the country (though only two experimental stations are operating) and there are allocations for Mexican digital operations near the border as well.
http://www.google.com/search?q=8vsb+spectral+envel ope
Europe (DVB) picked COFDM instead of 8VSB. There was a huge debate in the US for a few years about whether we should also go with COFDM, but the FCC decided to stick with 8VSB (relatively recently, like last year). And before you say "that's a stupid decision", go read the FCC report in which they announced their decision. They're not ignorant -- they considered the evidence and made a decision on the basis of it. Well, OK, maybe a few billion dollars of NAB influence had an affect ...
One simple rule for its versus it's
That is such a sweet video.
to Lindenwold everyday to take the train to school. And they need that 911. Niggas be crazy.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
When the cop that pulls you over on the Turnpike wears a white ten-gallon hat and keeps muttering about 'them darn Duke boys'...
and it's full service everywhere (state law).
That's what the main problem with NJ is... too damn many laws and regulations. The state govt there has run amok with overbearing, overzealous, overregulation of anything and everything they can think of, and constantly on the lookout for any new thing they might have missed that they can possible also regulate to hell and back. Whenever you want to do any business there, you have to get a permit to get a permit to get a permit to get authorized to get a permit to get a certificate to get a license to get authorization to get a permit. The sheeple there just sit back and take it too. I swear the only place on the planet that is more over-bureacratized than NJ is Germany and NJ isn't far behind them
Ya tell, the place will just get more crowded!
The revolution will NOT be televised.
I presume it's something similar causing it:
I heard that, with the right weather conditions, police transmissions from east coast Australia can make it all the way across the Tasman Sea, to west coast New Zealand, and get picked up by police radios (same frequency) here.
bits and peace
Nicholas Daley
Now THAT would be a reason to support digital TV.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
I knew this was going to happen! A digital signal not only needs to be stronger, it also is transmitted at cutoff and saturation. The Analog equivelant of a super modulated signal. Also the power that the FCC is allowing is insane? Don't they know about tropsopheric ducting?
The FCC may want it for those reasons, but it does bring good things as well...
& the Movie industry hates the idea... Which is why they've insisted on DRM. The Movie industry wants to limit the use of their products (movies) to get the greatest monetary gain from them... HDTV & high resolution aren't big are their lsits of features...
& the problem with foregoing VHF/UHF & DIgital broadcasts in favor of cable or Sat is that alot of people don't a) want it & b) want to pay for it (just look at the Canadian DirectTV underground to see a perfect example of item b). My parents fall into this category for example... They refuse to pay for TV & they don't see any need for the benefits of cable or Sat... Heck I had trouble convincing them that DVD's were a good thing (as opposed to VHS).
The best way to show a difference over normal TV would be in quality (hence HDTV), but Sat is slow on adding it (& doesn't yet draw enough of the right customers to make it feasable to change over entirely) & Cable companies don't seem to care if their product looks like crap... Ever complained about your picture quality? I've seen people complain, but normally the best you get is a "We'll have a technician come check out your setup as you must be doing something wrong & we'll do this at our convenience"... So HD doesn't interest them either...
But locally I have a PBS station which airs in HD (WICQ channel 50) & the quality of the images on an HDTV convinced my parents they needed an HDTV...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Next on NewsCenter 5ive: Natalie Jacobson conducts a hard-hitting one-on-one interview with the Ghost of Frank Sinatra, while Tony Soprano puts a hit on Dick Albert for misforecasting a nor'easter while making bad jokes.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
I have to make an...um... withdrawal from a few banks. Yeah, withdrawal, that's it...
A friend of mine was picking up some american english stations in the land mobile range (best guess we had was a fire frequency) in L-VHF (39.780 iirc). He was picking this up in Brazil, most likely coming in over a 5000+ mile link. So yes, distance is possible on VHF. He was picking the signals up in NFM (5khz) at about S8 signal level...
73 de w6sn
It's been a banner year for crazy VHF/UHF propagation. (Look through some back issues of QST, the ARRL's magazine, for some info in their VHF and Beyond column)
This past year, down at 144 MHz (2 meters), my amateur radio club's repeater was getting regularly triggered by some Canadians who had a repeater on the same frequency a few hundred miles north. (Yeah yeah, I know we should be using a PL tone, but it's disabled for various reasons.)
Apparently, some of the hardcore VHFers in our area had our repeater tuned in constantly, even though the W2CXM (Cornell Amateur Radio Club) repeater was usually idle (Most people used the county repeaters). When they started hearing faint signals coming from Canada triggering the repeater, they knew it was time to point their 6-meter antennas east. Contact with Europe on 6 meters (50 MHz) is usually unheard of, but this past year (both due to weather and oddball ionospheric occurrences) it's been common.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Please try to limit the amount of "this room doesn't have any bazingas"
until you are told that those rooms are "punched out." Once punched out,
we have a right to complain about atrocities, missing bazingas, and such.
-- N. Meyrowitz
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