Slashdot Mirror
Number of Jobs by Programming Language
The Viking writes "I was curious about which programming languages are hot with employers, so I did an informal search of several job search engines. The results are interesting (to me, at least). Are these numbers relevant? We can certainly debate whether or not the online job search engines are representative of the actual employment landscape."
Anyone got a mirror? Can't seem to get to the site.
I am shocked to see Scheme doing so well. At 1% it is ahead of Python. I mean that can't be right .. hehe
forth use = if unemployed then
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
For all people here grip about those who use strictly buzzword resumes, this is slashdotted before the 4th post.
That was quick. Here's the important part (without the table tags):
Number of Job Listings by Programming Language (January 3, 2003)
monster.com hotjobs.com dice.com %
Java 2739 1000* 1957 27.82%
C++ 2103 1000* 1534 22.65%
Visual Basic 2070 969 1127 20.35%
Perl 955 517 577 10.01%
Javascript 925 455 498 9.17%
C# 290 235* 183 3.46%
Ada 384 175 57 3.01%
Fortran 124 68 48 1.17%
Scheme 39* 138* 46* 1.09%
Python 58 43 33 0.65%
Smalltalk 42 27 32 0.49%
Lisp 12 4 9 0.12%
9741 4631 6101
* hotjobs.com changes a search of "C#" to a search of "C", so I averaged monster and dice.
* hotjobs.com limits the number of results that a query can return to 1000.
* Searching on the term "scheme" may result in false positives.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
At least we know someone still cares! I'm glad that the code I'm working on in graduate school might involve valid programming language experience...
I'm sure te results would be more intersting if the site was up, I guess it's currently being slashdotted.
daniel
Something intruiging...
I work for a computer consulting company which deals with mainly Fortune 500 companies. Java is the most requested language with VB/ASP coming in next. .NET is starting to grow and we anticipate it will continue next year. It seems to be that companies are moving from VB to .NET, not that Java developers are moving to .NET.
Where is it? PHP has become the defacto standard for developing new websites. There are certainly more PHP jobds then Python ones. It would also be interesting
to learn about employment oportunities for ppl with older skills like Cobol, Fortran, Assembler.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Hmm... and all this time I thought javaSCRIPT was a SCRIPTing language... :(
(yes, I know you can do fairly large and complicated projects with it, but come on... it's very limited as far as what it's able to do... (writing to files etc) )
If only we had some numbers on the average pay for each position, I'de be willing to bet that while Java is real popular, you would get much higher pay for fortran.
Maybe the price of the programmers is also affecting which language people are hiring for.
Yep, i got the whole first paragraph before the server crashed:
"Introduction
The employment landscape for Software Engineers, Computer Scientists, and Computer Programmers is far from static. In order for educators and job seekers to remain competitive, they must stay abreast of changes in the field.
Computer Science blends the theoretical with the practical. Though most of the fundamental concepts in Computer Science remain unchanged, the tools change constantly. One of the most influential tools is the programming language.
To keep up with employment trends in programming languages I have searched the most popular job search engines (monster.com, dice.com, and hotjobs.com) to catagorize the number of job listings by the programming languages mentioned in each listing. Each search engine is different. As such, a description of the search techniques is also presented.
I hope that you find this informal inquiry to be interesting. Of course, if you would like me to add another language to the search please let me know at eric.r.turner(at)bitbreather.com.
Number of Job Listings by Programming Language (January 3, 2003)"
And that's it.
"Men lie."
"Yeah, about sleeping with other women, but never about bioluminescent plankton."
-Dan Brown
There's some web site somewhere that has been keeping track of this ever month (week?) over the past few years. (Sorry, I've forgotten the URL, and can't find it with Google.)
My recent experience is that, for every C++ job, there are between two and two-and-a-half Java jobs.
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
I question the usefulness of this article - it seems to be a snapshot in time and it doesn't even say when these numbers were collected. It could change dramatically next week.
It would be much more interesting to see these statistics over a wide range of time. Applicability of the languages would be interesting too (ie/ what types of jobs are looking for what type of developers).
And it doesn't really detail if some languages tend to cluster (ie/ VB coders tend to have to know x as well).
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
And on-topic, I hope that Java/Oracle/Perl/Web/Unix relevant languages are popular. If only I could see the list.
Sex - Find It
Don't forget Ted Shieh's prior work tracking jobs for different programming langauges. Its more than a bit out-dated now but anything longitudinal is valuable.
Seastead this.
Gee, typical.
Lets broaden the search to languages commoningly used in minis and mainframes. Perhaps the results will be more relevant?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
This was a very unscientifically performed study. Job availability for scheme included entries such as:
Outside Sales Consultant
Though given my personal experience... 90% of the un-educated choose VB. (Almost all of the Web and Applications developers where I work have no college degree.)
Then again, I haven't met anybody that views web development as a serious application of computer science - and you should see some of the SQL queries these guys right -- joins and loops that are O(n!) or so.
Wouldn't the results for visual basic be off, as employers might ask for basic visual skills, or use those terms somewhere in the inquiry?
Furthermore, the searcher omitted C. C is still a very popular language for embedded applications. Everybody I know around here that got hired recently got hired to write C or assembly for hubs, cell phones, TVs or printers. I program almost entirely in C for work but I program in Java for fun.
These job sites are not the way to go. I'd say a survey of recent CS grads, and people that recently got new jobs would give much different results. Even a slashdot survey saying "Which language do you use most at work?" would be better.
You really need to be just a little more subtle. This is an obvious troll. Moderators save your points You're not going to hurt Anonymous Cowards Karma.
It h-has become a disturbing trend in recruitment circles to advertise jobs you don't actually have, in order to mine résumés for potential employer contacts. I know that this is especially common in the UK. I'd bet that less than half of these jobs are real.
Another worrying trend is that I know people who've responded to job ads, and even gone for interview, and have been told that the job doesn't exist, but that they wanted a healthy batch of résumés on file for when the economy picks up(!!)
Th-th-the best people to ask are the freelance workers, the people actually here on Slashdot. What languages are most in demand?
In the main, as a programmer myself, I find that specific, er, languages are not demanded so much. People want solutions, unh, not languages. That said, from the REAL ads I see (I'm in numerous freelance work groups), PHP and MySQL are way way way at the top of the tree, followed by Java.
mogorific carpentry experiments
...looks like the site's been slashdotted. i really am curious to know what the numbers are for QBasic.
bwahahaha!
that gorilla game kicked ass....wonder if it's been ported?
-- anthony
Now how many of those jobs were just head hunters? My guess? 90-98% of them.
This is taking for - ever to load. . .
is there a mirror site this file can be copied to in order to expedite the viewing process?
TIA
Those who give up their power willingly deserve none.
What about C and ASM? One would think their dominance in embedded applications would award either of them at least last place on the list?
Pete
a few massturds of deception action figure "slides" [picphone.com] we found. talk about fooling some of the people......
perhaps
ucann see why the payper liesense, stock markup, hostage ransom scam
FUDgePeddlers of the ill eagle kingdumb, MuSt delete the non-compliaNT
hobbyists, buy nitefall.
Also, it would be very interesting to see C and C++ both, instead of just C++. I bet there are still tons of jobs for C programers. Also, why not search for "c-sharp" along with "c#", you know, do an OR. That might make a difference. And where is objective C?
Last but not least, where are some other languages? What about...
Obviously, most aren't serious. The "real" ommisions are in bold. Please no "FoxPro is important you insensitive clod!" replies.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
If you want Highly skilled workers, who do actual programming, you're more likley to feild out the position to real people, University grads/students, and computer consulting companies.
If you want a bunch of Joe Losers, who learned Java from Sally Struthers, so they could be rich computer technicians, working for peanuts, then you advertise on Monster.com
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
Am I the only one that's scared because of this? I am not a programmer but I've always heard its a crappy language.. really basic (duh) ... could explain all the crappy bug and exploit ridden software though.
Haskell is cool - why aren't there any jobs in Haskell??????
Seems to me its more important to know algorithms, data structures, how to implement parsers, how to optimize databases(or knowing when its better to use a custom data structure rather than a database), etc.
But the job ads almost universally ask for knowledge of the specific language. I've worked with C++, Java, VB, Perl, SQL, XML, Javascript, and others, but in my experience knowing what to do with these languages far outweighs knowing the language itself. Why don't recruiters see this?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
lol, I program fox. Among other things. But I do feel its kind of like the blues mobile on the way to pay the taxes.
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.
This should be sitting next to Visual Basic as a lot of companies usually employ both interchanably nearly. I dont even see it mentioned?!
The results show the demand for people with different language skills, but gives little insight into the type of jobs that are available, or the languges that they use.
Much more interesting would be a breakdown of the different tech sectors vs languages used, although I'm guessing that most of it would be fairly obvious (Web stuff using mainly php and perl, C for embedded etc...)
From the question, it sounds like The Viking is trying to work out which language will give him the most job opportunies. My advice would be to select at least a couple of tech sectors to refine the search and then re-generate the stats. It might be that there are lots of very similar opportunities for VB programmers which The Viking would find to be boring as shit. Better to find a language with the maximal spread across different job types :)
-- Mike
No wonder most of my friends don't want a programming job - there's a 1 in 5 chance of becoming a VB slut! Seriously though, be good to see the same sort of chart for operating systems, that might give us a bigger picture. In Soviet Russia, VB programs you!
"Number of Job Listings by Programming Language (January 3, 2003)"... before any jobs were listed. /. effect, or truth...?
Who would do reserch and write an article, post it on a website, link it himself to slashdot, just to knock out his own server?
By the way, I don't belive for a second that Python beat out plain old C.
And what about Obj-C for Mac firms? I wonder if he posted the entire list?
Modular Redundancy--Because 4 out of 5 Nodes agree
Actually it says in giant letters right above the table, "January 3, 2003." It looks like it's generated automatically, perhaps daily.
PHP is the defacto standard used by newbies and children who don't want to learn a real language like perl or Java. PHP is shit.
I think PHP has a valid niche in building throwaway code for demos. Things I've used it for include:
- extremely low cost web sites with limited functionality. A person looking to get a site on the web with a concept can build a php site and put in on a shared server for $10/mo in hosting fees.
- prototyping - some times it's necessary to put together a prototype of an idea to show to a client in a hurry.
For serious work, I agree with you.
"from the algol-is-not-listed dept."
I DEMAND that this "timothy" character is fired! I, "timothy", am a Algol programmer, and due to this insensitive comment by you, my company decided to fire me since I'm worthless!
Let's see.... He's Missing:
But, I'd say it was a nice first draft. ;-)
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
C# is all the hype now and it is hot.
Similar to a few months after JAVA was released,
you can get a GOOD job according to the ads that want people with 8-10years experience with C#
If you can also say something like "I program XML in C#" then you are all set.
On a different point, the downturn in IT industry is good. This just means that hopefully only skilled people can work there and no more ex-busdrivers hacking webpages.
What would probably make the most sense is to accentuate expertise in one language with some dabbling in other languages. A lot of places, for example, will look for people that have both Java and C++. Really though what will get you the good jobs is the things beyond raw programming skill. That is:
1) Ability to interact with other humans without scaring them
2) Familiarity with standard processes for developing and documenting development
3) An ability to understand the business needs and realities that impact the code
Code monkeys are cheap and easy to come by, but people with a good head on their shoulders and a breadth of knowledge are what get the good jobs.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
This language is clearly the next big thing!
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
Progress Rocks!"
Progress Rocks!"
Since after all, the whole point of signing up for Monster is to start getting INCREDIBLE amounts of spam. That's what happened to myself and the whole department I was in when we got laid off and we'd all signed up with Monster.
You aren't a programmer therefore shut your mouth. You heard it's a crappy language? I heard ford's a crappy race car. You really have no idea what you are talking about and therefore just a troll. Anyways... Visual Basic is a great language to write quick GUI programs in. For people just starting off programming it is a great language to learn and lets you get right into making windows applications with ease. People who know visual basic can easily move onto ASP and VBscript. I started off programming in Visual Basic 3 and stayed with it till 6 and I eventually got comfortable enough with it that I decided to explore other languages. Starting off with something like c++ in 7th grade is a bit intimidating.
Progress is a much better language.
Hoo Ya!
If you have a skill that qualifies you for a job that pays $100,000 a year, but all such positions are filled, do you really have a useful skill?
taking the world by storm.
No one uses PHP at an enterprise level, nor is it ready to be used in such a manner.
i nd ex.jsp
(Warning, karma-killing but truthful rant ahead)
What the fsck is "enterprise level" anyhow? If that ain't a beaten buzzword, then I don't know what is (besides "XML web services").
PHP apps tend to use the database for noun modeling and state, not objects (although it can do OOP). Thus, it's "size" depends on the database, not really on PHP itself. Now if you want to define "enterprise level" to mean "big fat bloated objects/classes", then you are right. PHP is not "there". If you want big fat tangled bloated objects/classes, then go with EJB. Perfect mess for job security. See:
http://www.softwarereality.com/programming/ejb/
Relational theory and OO are pretty much at odds I have come to conclude, at least WRT to "business modeling". OO fans only want to use the "persistence" feature of relational databases. Beyond that they tend to re-invent the database from scratch in code, hand-coding their own indexes, joins, etc.
Table-ized A.I.
Becoming a language guru will inevitably involve deeper issues anyway, as true language gurus often delve into the implementation tools (compilers, VMs) for their given language.
"Big thinkers" on the other hand, tend to be just that. Lots of talk and little action. The bottom line is that you are trying to push out code to make money.
Job openings are crammed with requirements that are not necessary. Applicant should have 5 years experience with C#.
That isn't even possible... C# didn't exist in 1998!
A lot of employers have heard that it's a "buyers market" and forgotten that their dream employee is sometimes a theoretical person who doesn't exist. Those employers who are holding out for the impossible will find themselves still short-staffed when the recovery hits, and will get lapped by a fully staffed competitor who used the slow times to train on the job.
These indivduals are at different skill, and hence, WAGE levels. You pay for talent. So you wouldn't be an employer for very long, because your strategy appears to be that wage is not an issue.
Also, if the work is tedious, your highly skilled multi-talented engineer will likely leave or become insanely bored and actually produce less.
In any case, you are vastly oversimplifying.
Java is the highest ranking because Java apps *need* more people to get the same amount work done. Java fans say that the "up front" effort is worth it because of added reuse, more change-adaptable, and other bullshit. Its crap. Lemmings!
- extremely low cost web sites with limited functionality
You should quickly share your insights with the folks over at Yahoo! before they switch their whole site to PHP.
Yahoo Switches to PHP
A lot of employers have heard that it's a "buyers market" and forgotten that their dream employee is sometimes a theoretical person who doesn't exist.
Well, they give the job to the best liar. Simple. "Why yes! I have been doing Java since 1992."
I wish I had a course in lying in school. It is an important survivle skill. If you are honest you get stepped on by people who are not. I am tired of being a carpet. I will now watch the people who move in and up, and copy their techniques. So I can't sleep at night. Living in a fridge box under a bridge does not help sleep either.
Dog eat dog, and I am hungry.
What's with the affected stuttering? I've happend upon a few of your posts and have noticed that you randomly 'stutter' some words. Are you trying to call attention to a condition, or are you just living up to your nickname?
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
One other powerful use of VB is as a high-level controler of ActiveX objects. When factor in that all of the major Microsoft applications expose themselves for automation via ActiveX, and in fact most of them use Visial Basic for Applications as their primary macro language, Visual Basic becomes a very powerful bridge between Microsoft products.
Different instruction sets, yes.
Some shortcuts on certain processors, yes.
Different orders of instructions for optimisation purposes, yes.
I agree with you about awk, though - it's sadly neglected (though furiously complicated).
Cold Fusion may be great for rapid prototyping, but it's lacking many features needed for an enterprise level service. I haven't used MX, so I don't know if this has changed, however, their security model assumes that you have one distinct set of users PER server. From what I've seen of PHP's file uploading in the past, it's not much better.
And well, from my past experience, CF's proven to be rather unreliable in an enterprise situation. [an average of one unrecoverable crash per day, in which an admin has to manually intervene to bring it back up]. I understand that CF is more stable under Windows, however, we run a Solaris shop as we don't like rebooting the entire machine on that regular of a basis.
There's plenty of test pre-processors out there that all do mostly the same thing, and you just have to balance what reliability, scalability, functionality and security are best for your purpose. I wouldn't rank ColdFusion above average on 3 of those 4 categories.
That's not to say that it doesn't serve its purpose in proof of concept, rapid prototyping, or other low usage sites, but I'd definately think about replacing it before it gets heavy usage.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Mozilla uses XML (XUL and XBL, actually) and JavaScript to build its UI.
I'm just getting started in Mozilla XPFE application building, and curious whether the Perl interface that's constantly referred to in the Oreilly book as "almost ready" is an actual replacement for javascript (yet). Anyone know? thx
Actually, I work at a company where all of our software solutions (ASP) are centered around PHP. We have created probably the most advanced web-based user interface available and have created a number of breakthrough technologies BASED on PHP (I cannot discuss them due to NDA restrictions). PHP is a very flexible and powerful language -- very useful for developing applications that need to be easily modifiable, debuggable and portable. Without PHP, we estimate our development time to more than quadruple. PHP is one of the greatest tools when used in the right scenario. Like always; the right tool for the right job.
To decide what the best prospects for employment are you need to look at not only how many jobs there are using a particular language, but how many applicants there are for those positions. There's far more Java programmers on the market than anythings else, so that as an employer of people who write in C++, and people who write in Java, I find I can fill the Java position far more quickly.
Also, a lot of the application space covered by Java competes with the application space covered by Visual Basic rather than that covered by C or C++. That is, Java is being used for pretty end-user stuff, particularly if it's web based or an in-house project, whereas you use C or C++ for applications that require high performance (and these applications do still exist), and for shrink-wrapped software deloyed widely. There is some overlap, and some other things I haven't taken into account here.
Java is not necessarily used for platform independence. In fact even remaining on the same platform you have to special case things for different versions of the JVM, unless you have control of that, which you probably don't.
So, the questions are:
I find it very surprising that there are no jobs listed at all for C programmers. Is he perhaps lumping C and C++ into one category?
And the brethren went away edified.
Using the keword search query formatU AGE
http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?q=LANG
gets a more acurate number, but still limits the count to a maximum of 5000, for example
Java = More than 5000
C++ = More than 5000
You even can count C# by using this link.
C# = 446
For example, bank jobs or old school automotive would need cobol background...
While a new fangled web-startup might want PHP..
But i cant read the page to see what they have to say if they take this into account or not..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The only thing that really surprised me was the javascript rank. Other than that I probably would have guessed the top ranking ones.
I think now that Java isn't as slow as it used to be, it's really catching on. I personally prefer it to C++ because it's typically a lot cleaner. (In my opinion)
-Chris
I really miss Delphi/Pascal/Kylix !?!?!? This list is far from complete since these languages are used a lot in rapid development....
Spelling errors were made for your amusement only...
This is a common argument, and there is obviously some element of truth to it, but it's still flawed for two big reasons.
If you think you can take a Java programmer, even one with several years of experience, and get him to program industrial strength C++ with a good book and a couple of weeks of on-the-job practice, I think you're mistaken. He'll write code that compiles, but it won't use the RAII idiom to avoid resource leaks, base classes won't have empty virtual destructors, large class hierarchies won't be divided into a sensible arrangement of files resulting in hideous dependencies at build times, he'll pass random boolean parameters to functions where enumerations are appropriate, etc.
Similarly, you try taking a guy who's used to C and getting him to write functional code using high-level functions, currying and lazy evaluation. The mindset just isn't there, and takes time to develop, not a copy of Learn This Fab Language In 30 Seconds.
The experience issue just isn't as straightforward as some (mostly theoretical, with a heavy CS background) people make out. Experience with general programming technique is very important, but experience with the actual tools still counts for a lot, too.
And before anyone flames, be aware that I'm a professional developer with experience using several diverse languages, and a CS qualification from a well-regarded university, so I don't have any axe to grind against CS here.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I like when employers ask for "10 years experience in C#" when the language hasn't been around that long.
Where I work pretty much the whole IT department uses Java. It is very, very widespread at an enterprise level... some of the things you mentioned are also used internally but generallly will not make it out to job requirement space.
The need for Lex/Yacc has been all but eliminated by the coming of XML. No longer do you need to build a custom parser on a project, you simply use XML instead and grab whatever parser suits you best (usually Xalan). I used to do all sorts of things with Yacc and haven't touched it for years now.
Awk/Bash would just come in under general UNIX knowledge, so you'd probably only enounter the phrase "X years of UNIX" or perhaps "UNIX scripting" in a job description.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Soviet Russia is way (clitoris) past its prime now, and hot grits, Natalie Portman, PROFIT!!, and Beowulf Clusters are truly dead and buried
"confirmation" trolling is currently in demand!
With all those Monster and Dice, I thought you were trying to write some kind of Role Playing Character Card joke. You know, something like:
Cobol (Dwarf)
CSharp (Elf)
Java (Hutt)
Perl (Squid Troll)
RPG (Ent)
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
This is a serious question...basically when i heard that C# was coming out (it was from a campus rep while i was doing undergrad in between my sleeping through the SQL portion of the database class) it was described as bascially C++ without worrying about pointers and memory...so it would seem that C# is an embraced and extended C++ for dummies...any other thoughts...(or better yet, why should I learn C# other than its becoming a buzzword)
Indeed, there are many Java jobs out there, and there are many VB jobs. There are also jobs digging ditches, cleaning the floors in cholera wards, and prying dead skunks out of fat ladies' asses. So what? If you're going to call Java fiddling "programming", you may as well call whores and crack dealers "programmers", too. If a job has got nothing to do with programming, it doesn't belong on the list. This is not rocket science.
It's idiotic and uninformative to print a thing like this with irrelevant gibberish mixed in. Don't tell us about burger-flipping, Java, or any of that crap. It says "programming". List programming jobs. Nobody gives a shit how many janitors, Java people, or sewer inspectors will be hired this month.
It's not directly a language, but something sysadmins have to see to alot. We could call it fire extinguishing for the sake of simplicity...
At least the war on the environment is going well
The people posting the jobs are insane, incompentent, idiotic or all of the above.
Favorite post:
Must have Exchange 2000 on Solaris 8.
This
PHP 189 224 31 2.12%
Which would put it somewhere between Fortran and Ada.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
You should quickly share your insights with the folks over at Yahoo!
Yahoo is doing some very strange things. They evaluated a bunch of web development technologies, decided J2EE was the best, and then chose to use PHP because FreeBSD has very bad support for threads.
Now to me that is putting the cart before the horse. First you choose what software you want to run, then you choose the platform you run it on.
jobs by OS on dice: Windows 2229 Solaris 685 Linux 399 AIX 367 AS/400 or OS/400 287 HP/UX 191 Novell 165 VMS 61 Mac or MacOS or System 7 58 RTOS 58 VM 31 IRIX 18 BSD 18 OS/2 13 SCO 8 Darwin 6 BeOS 0 CHORUS 0 MINIX 0 HURD 0
Java is just the buzzword that almost all IT managers think that their applicants should have.
I have seen dozens of job postings for positions like System Administrator and Database Administrator that had NOTHING to do with Java, and yet, somehow, Java finds its way onto the list of requirements. I've seen several of my managers post job openings requesting Java experience while our department did absolutely no Java work whatsoever.
And, right there, you have an explanation of why most software teams fail, most commercial software products suck, and so many people keep buying junk development tools: software teams in industry don't have a clue what they are doing. They are just plugging together a bunch of library routines. They don't know whether to use quicksort or mergesort. They are mystified by what a garbage collector does and how to tune code to perform well. They have no clue what happens when they write "new object". TCP/IP might as well be ESP.
Thank you for demonstrating this point so clearly for us all. PS: Would you mind telling us where you work, as a warning?
It's much faster at making me money :-)
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
Probably all the morons who have overtaken this site for a while now.
Wanna mod me down? Go ahead asshole!
The points still remains. Yahoo! thinks PHP is capabale of doing the job.
PHP rules. Cold Fusion is just butter compared to it.
I use PHP for serious stuff at work where Perl and Java aren't worth the trouble because we prefer to make MONEY as opposed to wasting time with Perl and Java on the front end. We use PHP for front end stuff and Perl for data mining and munging.
PHP is just as useful a tool as Perl when used properly, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.
PHP is a very flexible and powerful language -- very useful for developing applications that need to be easily modifiable, debuggable and portable.
I agree with that in general (I do find Java debuggers to be significantly better than what is available for PHP, primarily due to the strong IDEs available for Java). However if your throw in maintainable and scalable I start to have real problems with PHP. That's why I said I like it for prototypes etc.
About 6 months ago my boss asked me to research the use of PHP on larger scale web sites, i.e. more than two servers for a single application. I went to sites like PHP.net, zend,com, etc. and found no such examples. And in fact some of the examples on these sites turned out to be places that had switched to Java since the example was posted. Now maybe these sites were out of date, but....
I cannot discuss them due to NDA restrictions
Makes it kind of hard to evaluate what you are saying. In any case I would have to say that I think the current leading edge UI technology is Flash MX using Flash Remoting to either ASP.NET or J2EE. And this is something that isn't supported by PHP at all.
Now to me that is putting the cart before the horse. First you choose what software you want to run, then you choose the platform you run it on.
They've already got a cart AND horse and it's been moving along for years.
Yeah, Java could handle what they need as well, theoretically. In the real world, they already have *thousands* of machines running FreeBSD. Scrapping all of those to move to new hardware and OS just to THEN be able to port everything to Java is extremely costly, both hardware-wise and time-wise. The cost differential must not have been enough to counteract whatever supposed deficincies some people think PHP may have.
If they're really serious about Java, then can migrate things to PHP, then move those processes over to other platforms (on which Java will perform better) then migrate things to Java. Even if that go that route for some sections, it'll be years before it's complete.
So, Java is great in theory but when push comes to shove, PHP is the one which is getting the job done.
creation science book
For my job (R&D) I've done stuff in VB, C and C++ in Unix and Windows, tons of perl and shell scripting, Tcl/Tk, Java, and probably others. I pick the language that's best for what I need. Being able to pick a language that will make you most efficient for a certain job is much more important than knowing just 1 language really well.
public static final int X_00 = 0;
public static final int X_01 = 1;
...
public static final int X_FF = 255;
I asked him what was up with that. His reply? "Java doesn't have hex support built in." My reply: "Uhm, yeah it does. Always did, in fact." His reply: "Oh, well, I never found it."
Knowledge of the language and its libraries are extremely important.
Scrapping all of those to move to new hardware and OS just to THEN be able to port everything to Java is extremely costly, both hardware-wise and time-wise.
They are going to have to port everything anyway - their custom development environment is being scrapped. And where do you see evidence they need new hardware? And committing to FreeBSD? It seems to me that there are other platforms that are having a LOT more developer resources thrown at them. Will FreeBSD even be sustainable for a large enterprise 3-5 years from now?
I think that they are making a decision that is going to hurt bad when it bites them in the ass.
I worked in San Francisco before, during, and after the boom, and sometime during the boom, a building near the train station on 4th St. got converted into a Starbucks/WellsFargo/BriazzSandwiches. Pretty quickly it became a surrogate office for much of Multimedia Gulch - I'd stop there in the morning, and there'd be three or four tables of groups of salespeople planning for the sales calls they were about to make or managers interviewing potential employees or people plotting corporate mergers or whatever. Early in the crash, the place started to be pretty empty
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
And where do you see evidence they need new hardware?
They can't run Java on existing machines due to OS. Assumption on my part - I'd thought I'd read that they'd need to upgrade hardware to move to Java. I assume they *could* just change OS to run Java instead (Linux on same hardware? Or Solaris?).
The long and short is that at this time they have no cost-effective way to move to anything else except that which can run on their existing FreeBSD systems - PHP fit the bill better than Java or pretty much anything else given their constraints.
Is it the *best* way to go? Long term you may think not, but I tend to think it'll be fine for them. They've always seemed to be much more technology agnostic, and certainly got pretty far without any big name app servers behind them over the past 6-7 years.
creation science book
And so was recorded the first time that someone Slashdotted himself.
Therefore, every moron flipping burgers at McDonald's (including you, Beavis) is a "programmer". Right?
Oh, wait, you're a moron yourself. So does your "programming job" (snicker) involve Java, VB, or a mop and a bucket?
Never mind...
The fun part is when the standard APIs really do suck, like select()/poll().
Then, real architecture questions need to be asked (do we use a bunch of threads instead? RT signals? epoll() where available? maybe a hybrid approach? How will it scale?). The answer varies depending on your platform and application, eg. can the various tasklets interfere w/each other. God help you if you're supposed to be multi-platform.
Be you theorist or code-cranker, you need to have some code architect skills and a deep understanding of the problem and platform(s) you're working on to do it right the first time. (As I'm painfully finding out.)
C++ provides:
- a string class that's far more resistant to buffer overflows than char*s;
- powerful data structure mechanisms (built in variable sized arrays and linked lists you no longer have to code yourself, plus sets and associative arrays likely better than you'd throw together),
- lots of help with memory management,
- and good ways of abstracting data (and operations) so the design is fairly well communicated by the code itself.
These can all be big productivity boosts.C++ does not prevent you from doing so. But if you want to do something other than pass around function pointers, there's no way to do so in C that clearly expresses your intent. There are several ways to do so in C++, not even counting inheritance.You think inheritance is a fatal disease for software? Fine; don't use it. Don't define a single member as virtual or protected, and it'll be pretty tough for anyone to usefully inherit from your classes.
That's an admission of your ignorance, not a valid criticism of the language.Can it all be done in C? Sure. Can it be done in assembler? Of course. Can it be done in C++, with less effort, and in a way that better communicates the programmer's intention? In my experience, absolutely.
People and projects sometimes stumble when moving from C to C++ ... or when adopting any new technology. There are strategies that often work, and others that always fail. Want to talk about them?
I've read what you've said (here and elsewhere) about C++. You don't see how it can give programmers an advantage. Okay; but then you attack it as if no one should use it, rather than as if you tried to use it and failed. (Honest, there's a tone of aggressive defensiveness in your postings that makes your position come across as more emotional than rational. That tone seriously undermines your arguments.)
No one's going to force you to program in C++; but no one's going to force managers to hire you for projects using C++. You won't succeed in getting others to be restricted by your limitations. Your choice, your consequences.
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
HR people often don't know what they're really writing in job ads. Especially in bigger companies (i.e. big enough to have an HR bureaucracy that doesn't actually know the products or the engineers, which seems to happen when Silicon Valley startups reach 200 people, which is also when the HR professionals start saying things like "No, you've got to stop the Friday afternoon beer, that's politically incorrect and exposes us to liability for drunk drivers"), managers trying to hire employees and potential employees trying to find jobs that match their skills have to start working around them. I remember seeing job ads looking for people with 5 years of Java experience early in the boom, back when there was really only one person who could say that he had that much (James Gosling of Sun, the inventor of Java, who wasn't particularly looking for a journeyman programmer job right then...)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Taking Japan by storm, anyway.....too bad not here
I used RPG II for a summer job back in college on an IBM System 34 (yes, that was before many of you were born :-) It had 48K of Semiconductor RAM (not core!) and a 13MB disk drive, and the Apple 2 could kick its butt a couple years later, and RPG was a terribly limiting language to program in, mainly tolerable for the accounting applications that we worked on which were simple accumulate-subtotal-print nested loops. If the machine had had a BASIC interpreter, it would have been much more effective, but it didn't. My father knew a number of people doing chemical system simulations in RPG, which they were doing because they ran on hardware that was affordable by individual departments, somewhat like PDP-8s. But that was then, and even by five years later, there was really no excuse for doing new RPGs.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
C++ can lick my hairy ass. What about plain old C? At my job at least, all the GUI client code is written in Java, but all the backend server, database, and nubmer crunching code is written in C.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Javascript is as powerful a language as Lisp.
What about the fact that almost all job listings these days will mention more than one of these skills? There are significantly less jobs than what this chart shows because of that fact, not counting the "spam" jobs. It seems that more often than not any Java post also mentions C or C# these days...
Ahem. SourceForge.net (supporting > 500,000 users) is written in PHP (+ Perl and Python).
Like any tool - wield it correctly and you can build anything. Wield it incorrectly and you've got Windoze.
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
Required knowledge and experience with the following: Java, JSPs, EJBs, JavaScript, ASPs, VBScript, C/C++, HTML, XML, WebSphere Application Server, UNIX (AIX) platform, Windows 2000/NT platform.
Alright, there must be a ton of people out there with these credentials, especially all that Java plus VBScript. I can think of only one person that I know that maybe has these. Read on:
Preferred knowledge and experience with the following: OOA&D, UML, Together/J, Visual Age for Java, Visual Age for C++, DB2/UDB, MQ Series, MS SQL server, Perl and other scripting languages, Interwoven Teamsite. 5-8 years web application development or support in either UNIX or Windows platforms. Bachelor's degree in computer sciences, business or engineering.
Damn, job's written for me!
Seriously, who's got these credentials? And if you do, why are you still at the same job? Or are you consulting by now?
And if you don't have all the required skills, do you apply anyway?
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
Taking Japan by storm, anyway.....too bad not here
Yeah, here in the US I wouldn't exactly say that Ruby is taking the country by storm, but it does seem to be making steady progress. It would be nice if it were going a bit faster...
The C preprocessor isn't Turing-complete. Try and write the following code in C:
... Free hint: it optimizes for an O(1) execution time, at the price of an ungodly compile time. Template metaprogramming rocks. And you can't do it in C. :)
=====
#include <iostream>
template <unsigned long n>
struct factorial
{
const static unsigned long value = n * factorial::value;
};
template <>
struct factorial<0>
{
const static unsigned long value = 1;
};
int main(void)
{
using namespace std;
cout << "10! = " << factorial<10>::value << endl;
return 0;
}
=====
Gah. Damn < anglebrackets. The first struct should be
template <unsigned long n>
struct factorial
{
const static unsigned long value = n * factorial<(n-1)>::value;
};
you can get a GOOD job according to the ads that want people with 8-10years experience with C#
Well, let's see... C# has been around what, a couple of years now. Maybe three. So maybe this is the solution to the job shortage: four of us with 2 years of C# experience could apply for one job that requires 8 years of C# experience claiming that together we have 8 years of combined experience with C#... or even better, 16 of us with six months experience could apply. Wow, this is a real job creator!
...Seen it done in C++ too. Made me cry. The only good part of the whole thing was that it was code I was picking up from a guy who had "sadly left the team", as it were.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
Problem is, no CS graduates do know this.
Absolute hogwash. I've been in this business for 20 years and interviewed developers for probably 100 openings. When I see no formal computer science education I put that resume on the bottom of the pile. Not all entry-level CS majors are ready to hit the ground running but at least you know that they have been exposed to a broad range of programming and software engineering topics. And in my experience, it's the physics and EE folks that I have had the most problems with.
I believe the biggest problem in our industry today is bad IS management. In my experience, IS managers without formal CS education are the reason that IS fails to meet business expectations. And I sense a lot of 'tude from the poster...probably does not have a CS degree and wants to get back at those who do.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
What about Assembler and HEX?. Who is gonna do programming for your EPROM?. C++ or maybe Java programmer:)? LOL...
Since the game was made in QBasic, I deemed it necessary to port the game to a Visual Basic Format. (Ahem...Leave me alone about the language choice I have since switched to Java....) Anyways here is a link: PSCode Also I have since moved to using sourceforge =) I hope anyone that cares....enjoys
This has got to be a joke. Someone types in "java" or "scheme" in monster and tries to play it off as some sort of indication of the ratio of jobs out there? I am suprised so many people are taking this survey so seriously and arguing over it. The probability for inaccuracy is probably .. hehe .. off the chart err pie chart. Large numbers of jobs are not listed on job sites, not to mention the languages this person leaves out ... C as someone mentioned, cobol, peoplcode(although it could be debated whether its really a language, there are jobs out there) .. and I'd imagine a huge number of languages I've never heard of.
Granted the person who wrote it goes over some of the problems with the study, I somehow feel it was presented and taken a little bit too seriously.
Horrible techniques used for coming up with the figures.
In particular for the Hotjobs data.
"VisualBasic" plus "VB"...nevermind that some hits will overlap.
I suppose it serves the purpose and gets you a general ballpark idea. But, I'd probably have written a Perl script to actually count the individual listings with some attempt and smart pattern matching. For example, how many jobs were specifically for "C++" but happened to say "Java experience would be nice"?
oh well...
You're argument is broke.
Given sets A and B where A is a superset of B, we know: if b is an element in B then b is also an element in A. Or, in other words, all b's in B are also in A. Any element a in A, may or may not be in B.
But, following this logic, all we would have is that "All C coders are C++ coders.", not "All C++ coders are C coders."
But even when the statement is written that way, it still doesn't really work in practice. Sure you *could* be a C-only coder and code using a C++ compiler--but you wouldn't like it. Besides, what would be the point of using a C++ compiler with all its complexity if you're only writing C code? Finally, how could you claim to be a C++ coder if you didn't know what a class was?
Furry cows moo and decompress.
He forgot to exclude 'VBScript' and 'VB Script'. Doesn't make a big difference in the order or language demand. Just an interesting little fault to point out in his method.
I searched on COBOL at Monster and Dice. Both were over 500. Puts them in the top 5 or so on both lists. Guess that just shows the bias of the original poster. Probably lots of other languages that were left out would score higher as well.
You should have added someone like directemployers.com to your test results. There's more than 3 job sites out there.
php and mysql combination seems to rule nowadays!
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll add that to the "oh, yes it is" list the next time somebody tries to claim that JS isn't good for anything other than image rollovers.
(Heads off to TrollTech's site to see what's up with QtScript...)
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I'm currently an RIT student and the IT majors are being taught Java (2 years ago it was VB) while the CS majors are being taught C++. I find it interesting that, according to this guys results, Java is more sought after then C++ Luckily, anyone who knows C++ also *generally* knows Java
[sig]www.masterslate.org[/sig]
One of my best clients has had only requests for PHP/Linux/MySql based solutions. Why? Cause they make complete server products, and to make a profit off of ColdFusion & MS software you have a minimum cost of $8,000 to $10,000 and that does not include the cost of your own proprietary software, and on top of that you still need to profit.
So compare $10,000 to $0 intial costs, 10k can get a few benefits like this-
1) Extra features in your software
2) More time spent debugging and testing
3) Better hardware
4) More profit
5) Easier sales (because you can sell to any platform not just MS)
etc...
When it comes to bottom dollar, MS doesn't come close to competing, not to mention draconian licenses with no hope of relief in the future from them.
-v
The old Citran, Joss, Cal, or whatever time-sharing interpreted language was written in Fortran. (About 5k lines of Fortran II, I think) It was much better than its competitors of the day, ie Basic and Xtran.
Then, for the real fans of serious programmer cajones, consider this: Realia wrote their COBOL compiler in Realia COBOL, which was a take-no-prisoners, unmitigated, unextended, minimum standard COBOL, ie 1974 version more or less.
I'm also suspicious that C# makes #6. Does anyone know anybody using it? I tend to think it's gotten that position because of its visibility being associated with MS and therefore has become known to people writing and contributing to job listings.
I could be way off-base here, but that's my initial feeling about this.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
Already halfway through I thought that you are a CS. It shows...
Look, to me (comp.arch) any language is only a limitation. Some limit in one way, some in another. That is the fundamental concept in any language (e.g. compare Chinese to English), not just computer languages. For your two arguments:
-if this would be the problem then look through the libraries first off
-paradigms, there aren't that many and some are overrated
I get the feeling CS guys feel like they know all about computer languages. But in the beginning languages map on hardware and in the end it solves a question. I like jobs where the question and hardware matters most, then I'll design a language around if necessary (or pick the appropriate one if it exists).
The only good thing I've seen coming from CS are algorithm skillz.
nosig today
I agree with you. And let's take this one step further...
While we're all forced to play "keyword bingo" on our resumes because of the keyword driven searches that companies will use to attempt to find qualified IT personnel, what's really going to matter when you hit the job interview is what you bring to the table for that employer. In other words, if you have specific and valuable experience within a given industry (e.g. geological survey, financial services, etc.), then you're going to have a much better chance than the next guy over who "just knows Perl/VB/whatever".
I think people should pay attention to the technologies too, but I really think you'll be doing yourself a tremendous favor by learning about and concentrating on a given industry. It's the ultimate compliment to not only pander to your customers' needs, but their interests too.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
( ) I'm unemployed, you insensitive clod!
Read the comment under the graph -- they pointed out that "scheme" frequently turns up false hits.
Nothing too surprising. Lightweight stuff is done in Java, high load stuff in C++, stuff with a short turnaround time in perl. A large amount of stuff is inexplicably done in Visual Basic, but that's always been true.
I guess I'm a little surprised that Ada is so high, but maybe that's Office of Homeland Security-type stuff contracts. I can't think of another reason for the government to be suddenly doing development.
May we never see th
Linux JSDK (mind you, JSDK, not JRE, which is ~10Mb)
is 39M (j2sdk-1_4_0_01-linux-i586.bin)
Note: To run java programs you only need JRE.
New programming languages have gained substantial market share quickly, which is not what anyone would have expected new languages to do, given the prominence of C and oncoming rush of C++ about ten years ago. I suppose that means that software is now a fashion industry, subject to sweeping and sudden changes of fashion. Both Java and C# have been very successful. It's now Java, C#, VB, and everything else. A year ago it was VB, C++, Java, and everything else. Most of the lesser languages (not in the top 4) are losing share very quickly. They will hang on in some places, but market share is withering, support will be not easily available, demise follows, etc. For examples, it looks like perl and python have peaked; Powerbuilder, tcl and smalltalk are disappearing; Ada, Eiffel, modula-anything, Fortran, and COBOL are fading back into the triassic period. Two languages, Delphi and SAS, although they have very small market share, seem to be bucking the trend by holding on to what share they have very well.
These are all nice and modern languages and
certainly there is a need for programmers in
such, however reality is different. Lots of
code in the comercial world exists in older
languages like Cobol and in the science world
like fortran, and there still is need to
maintain this software - or at least port it
to something modern which also requires skills
in the old one.
So leaving out Fortran and Cobol makes this
survey rather useless.
I know which kind of people is increasingly hard
to find...
Serious programming is made in Delphi... :-)
Salvatore Meschini
http://salvatoremeschini.cjb.net
http://smeschini.altervista.org
This covers demand only.
How great are your chances of getting a Java job if you are one of a thousand applicants?
These are mostly maintainence jobs, which suck.
Is there a new wave of technology sweeping the industry, where cool new killer-apps are popping up like mad, because of new language idioms? I think not.
Can Java solve any single problem that wasn't solvable before? Of course not. It doesn't put new magic into the box, it's just another kind of magic.
This survey seems to be a measure of the buzzword bingo managers who are *still* not realizing the simple fact that: fads don't fix problems. I thought most of them dot-bombed in the 90's, but I guess we have some stragglers.
It doesn't matter what the fad language is, I can still do twice the work, in half the time, by cobbling together bash, perl, php, C, and whatever else is optimal to solve a problem. Any language which is slower to write in, or requires more design time, or stupid ROSE diagrams, ER committees, or 24 hour code reviews for 100 lines, is a *massive waste* of time.
Customers don't pay for design, theory, or somebody's philosophy, they pay for solutions. Now that hardware is cheaper than coders, design matters less than ever, as long as it can scale across boxes.
(Amusing note: I had a contract job where I distilled 300 lines of perl to one line of bash... the spec was re-written to not be language specific, and boom, I had replaced the perl bloat, where they re-implemented bash functions in perl).
Caveat: I get paid for solutions, not buzzword compliance. I don't do gigs where I waste hours on "modeling charts for the extremely daft".
-Bop
Considering the hype surrounding Ruby these last 2 years in the OSS world, I'm surprised it doesn't make the top 10 and Scheme does, even if Scheme might be in there because of inaccurate searches.
What also struck me as very weird is Python's penetration in the job market. Surely it is much more used than the percentage suggests?
/. Where the truth
Well he forgot the best programming language:
Delphi which is probably due to the fact that it is more widely used in europe than in the US.
However when searching for Delphi you still get some decent results:
hotjobs: 63
Monster: 158
Where are INTERCAL and Brainfuck in this survey? 'Data structures? We don't nedd no stinkin' data structures!' Ahhh, I see a bright future ahead... Mod me up, Scotty.
Meep.
If you're using a function pointer your delegating some responsibilty & you should be using a functor or a strategy (unless you like making maintenance programmers debug core dumps when someone changed an innocent looking function prototype 3 years later).
You seem to the the type of dinosaur that I go to great lengths to avoid hiring. Good luck with your career (& I hope I never have to maintain any of your code).
Ok,
C/C++ is undying but Java had its ups and downs - that way we cannot exactly say that this is the proper survey ! - i mean - the time standing one.
BTW i am not seeing 'C' here (only C++) why?
That last one bothers me a lot. It means you *have to* become part of the problem in order to get noticed. Being honest on your resume means not getting any calls. Employers assume you are exaggerating whether you are or not, so if you don't exaggerate they picture you being a lot less qualified than you are. At least that's the way it seemed the last time I was looking to change jobs, which admittedly was over six years ago so things may have changed.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The missleading aspect of these numbers is that a programmer can only use one job. The absolute number of jobs (based on language, or OS, or whatever) is less important than the ratio of jobs to candidates.
Although it's fun to be able to play with the latest and greatest technologies, if your prime goal is to pay the mortgage, then you need to find a niche where you can be the "best", rather than being YAJP (Yet Another Java Programmer).
My last job was writing DCOM servers in Visual C++ for a Futures trading application. Unfortunately, the company went out of business, and competition in that area is fierce.
Now, I'm wrighting C/Asm code for an MS-DOS based(!) Point -Of-Sale system. The tools aren't as trendy, but the pay is better, the hours are shorter, and the vast majority of my competition in the job market can't compete, because they don't have a clue about how to write sophisticated applications in such a "primitive" environment.
Things really look bad, but you have to keep in mind that a big % of the companies don't recruit via Internet - or they do it directly and not via these portals.
I know what you may think of that language, but almost 85% of all applications on mainframes are written in COBOL; and mainframes run the business world. COBOL is the most used of all the programming language.
SkillMarket
Software Wars
I bet the scripting tools that you use or develop are simular in syntax to C. If this is the case it sounds like you are alreading doing what Kunta Kinte is saying -- you are specializing in C.
Now, I would be very impressed if your scripting languages that you use aren't
Similar to a few months after JAVA was released,
you can get a GOOD job according to the ads that want people with 8-10years experience with C#
8-10 years' experience with C#?
How long has C# existed?
--something witty
These seem to be quite percise results for the american 'market' of PLs. For instance: No way would VB and ADA get such results in Europe
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
No, perl is the de facto standard used by newbies and children who don't want to learn a real language. Anybody who offers perl as an example of a real language doesn't know shit. It's awk with extra cruft.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
www.horde.org
BTW, I am mostly programming in Perl.
:wq
Right. And Shit makes a good fertilizer. Don't get me started on ASP. *ugh*
> What would a Beowolf cluster of Jesuses do in Soviet Russia,
> where all your base are belong to us?
Pour a LOT of hot borscht down Natalie Portman's pants?
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
You can also save money by hiring Children and newbies to do your front ends. Where is your web site. I could use a good laugh.
Either I am completely blind, or C is not in the list. Is BSD taking C with it in its grave?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
They've always seemed to be much more technology agnostic, and certainly got pretty far without any big name app servers behind them over the past 6-7 years.
I am not sure that Yahoo's commitment to FreeBSD is 'technology agnostic'. It seems to me more like they have some powerful internal political forces that are pushing them in this direction.
Many of the early internet companies like Yahoo put together their own custom development systems. Amazon and EBay are two other examples I'm aware of. As the internet matured, the costs to maintain these custom systems have gotten out of hand and these companies have switched to third party app servers. Both Amazon and EBay have moved to or are moving to Java.
Although I haven't used the latest version of PHP (sorry, don't do web development these days, mostly system and database administration), but it would upload all files into one directory, and then move the files into the directory that you requested.
So, if you have multiple users with access to the system, they have to make sure that they don't ever have a file uploading at the same time with the same name, even if it's being written to a different directory. [Because, well, it was intended for a single user to be used, not a multiuser system]. In my environment (a university), this model just isn't sound. It may work for a long time, but it'll be a bitch to debug when it finally does happen.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Using the author's own methodology, I searched for PHP and SQL. PHP came in between Ada and Fortran, but SQL saturated monster.com with over 5000 listings, and came in first on the other searches, as well.
The installed JDK is 85 Mbytes; that's what you need for development, which is what we are actually talking about here. The installed JRE is 56 Mbytes.
Java has become ridiculously bloated.
Why? Because most posts are looking for multiple language developers so Java and Visual Basic may come up for the same job.
For just java using monster.com:
Java AND NOT Javascript AND NOT Visual Basic AND NOT VB AND NOT C++ AND NOT Perl AND NOT Ada AND NOT Fortran AND NOT COBOL AND NOT Python AND NOT Smalltalk
1382 jobs
Good effort mind you..
You will notice that the search query he uses to look for java programming positions excludes javascript ("Java AND NOT Javascript") which sounds ok at first, cause he wants to seperate html & javascript positions from java positions. The issue comes up with what I would imagine are a decent number of Java related jobs...something that requires Java -AND- Javascript. So any jobs that are doing web development of Applets might ask for javascript too. Just one other reason to inflate the Java numbers in your head when looking at these comparisons.
I think people should list examples of most favoured/complex/interesting/noteworthy programs they wrote in each of the languages they say they know.
:).
That'll be more helpful eh?
If I see 20 languages with no details I'm tempted to think Hello World level for at least half of them.
Then again if someone has a single Hello World source which runs in 20 rather different languages... Now that's different
Let him do what he does best and make 500M/year.
:).
I'll just help sysadmin his home network for 0.1%. Not greedy
I might even help carry his golf clubs/bag.
Don't forget those apps that companies are still happily running on dumb terminals.
;).
If a company today wants those sort of apps, web versions could make great sense. A Walmart PC is probably cheaper than a classic dumb terminal
HTTP/HTTPS can allow you a great deal of network flexibility.
Take a look again: perl beat php in most of their benchmarks. And they even said they had legacy perl code.
c on 2002.htm
YSP = yahoo server pages = mod_perl
http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-php
As for perl's lack of maintainability. How is php much better??? Even they said PHP requires discipline.
Given the results, WHY PHP?
Very strange indeed. Decision decided before test and results?
Showing the wrong test? e.g. they used a different test (coder availability etc) for the decision?
I'm not a Java coder, but my ex-colleagues didn't seem to know Java that well.
They had difficulty finding a neat way of getting the number of rows returned from an SQL select. They could get the number of columns easily, but erm, most times you know that already.
Another one had problems getting Java web libraries to not strip cookies returned from his server's http connections to other webservers.
You any idea how they should be doing these things? They must be missing something right?? Coz they resorted to doing yucky things - in my opinion anyway.
One of my best clients has had only requests for PHP/Linux/MySql based solutions.
LAMP is a worthy technology suite for some applications - however I would much rather work with Poostgresql-Linux-Apache-Tomcat-Eclipse, (PLATE) as a starting point. Then if the customer's business grows you are in a good position to move up to heavier duty solutions.
Ahem. SourceForge.net (supporting > 500,000 users) is written in PHP (+ Perl and Python).
I could say something snotty like "so that's why it performs so poorly?". Seriously though, SourceForge is not the most reliable web site that I've ever visited. I don't know enough about their issues to say what the cause of the problems are, but they do have problems.
If they are using a mixed code base of Perl, Python and PHP I feel very sorry for them. I used to have to support an e-commerce site that was mixed Perl/PHP and I found that it was a nightmare - logic duplicated all over the place in two different languages. Very, very bad.
Let me remind you of your original statement:
/c/Program Files/Java .
:) These issues will be addressed in 1.5
>> Take a look at the Java libraries some time. In fact, the Java standard libraries are so dependent on each other that the whole thing is only distributed as a monolithic 85 Mbyte install.
You said, distributed, which means, available for download or other way of getting. Second, you argue that Java libs are dependent on each other, and, *that* is why distribution is large. If you go from this point, you should talk about JRE, not about JDK, isn't it obviuos that JDK has no more necessary libraries than JRE?
You were not specific, you're not specific this time again. JRE/JDK is too broad a term, there are different ones from different vendors (IBM for one).
Sun's jre 1.4 is 34M, far enough from 56M
ledestin@DANNANW 12:25
$ls
j2re1.4.0
$du -s
34M
To prove your point about libraries, you'd have to dissect JRE and see how much of it, is libraries, and how they really depend on each other (analyzing imports for example).
If you care of constrained resources devices (such as phones) as I infer from your other posting, there is JavaME, it should be smaller. If you want to bash java for bloat, bash it for JVM startup time and process size, while you can
Who the hell modded this as a troll? A thoughtful, informative response to a more trollish post is NOT a troll. We need MORE of these kinds of posts, not fewer.
And am proficient in 3/5 of those. This is 74.91% of the market, by this article. So why can't I get a job? The only answer I've got is that all of these can be done in India for $2.50/hr- and that's where all the projects are going.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The biggest reason in this case is wide spread knowledge of linux/MySql/PHP. It's an easy combination to setup, find people to maintain or build on and it's a relatively simple. I can attest to this because I am a designer first a programmer second, and I've been able to set up my own php/mysql server and work hand in hand with the heavy coders...
Anyways, I've read that postgres is better than mysql, but I've never heard of tomcat, eclipse. Are these so much better than php or is the scripts more portable? What are the advantages?
Because if stability is the only comparison, php does fine for what we need, it's not mission critical software... any comments on PLATE are welcome, I am always open to the best solution for the problem.
-v
I also said "85 Mbyte install", not "85 Mbyte distribution".
If you go from this point, you should talk about JRE
Come on, you are grasping at straws. I didn't make a point about Java being too big for download, I made the point that the Java libraries are very, very interdependent. And Sun likes it that way because it makes it really hard to clone Java. Java isn't alone in this: a lot of runtimes that effectively had only a single codebase during a key period of their development have the same problem: CommonLisp, Smalltalk, Python, etc. And the most popular system like that: Windows. Yes, Java and Windows, sadly, are not all that different.
To prove your point about libraries, you'd have to dissect JRE and see how much of it, is libraries, and how they really depend on each other (analyzing imports for example).
Maybe you do, I just run "java -verbose helloworld.java" and notice that it loads 287 classes to get its job done, or that an 11 line Java program that puts up a label window loads 653 classes.
That's, of course, "java -verbose helloworld".
Reliability? I can't remember the last time sf.net crashed. Can you? Performance? Show me another system running 50,000 users that performs as well as SF.net supporting 500,000 users. Ever used SAP R/3.....
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
Expanded distributives aren't usually distributed, so I assumed you refer to the installation executable (e.g. install.exe, or, more often, setup.exe). Ambigous.
Come on, you are grasping at straws. I didn't make a point about Java being too big for download, I made the point that the Java libraries are very, very interdependent. And Sun likes it that way because it makes it really hard to clone Java. Java isn't alone in this: a lot of runtimes that effectively had only a single codebase during a key period of their development have the same problem: CommonLisp, Smalltalk, Python, etc. And the most popular system like that: Windows. Yes, Java and Windows, sadly, are not all that different.
Actually you made both points, but let's get to the point of interdependency.
If we talk about Java in general, and not about specific vendor implementation, only java.* classes matter, there are 215 of them.
As long as a package referring to other package has lower or same priority, it is ok. Look which packages are referenced: java.io, java.net, java.security, java.lang, java.util, java.reflect and java.beans. There is coupling between theses packages, but, they are all considered core libraries, with one priority. What would you like it to be?
Well, if that's all you want to do... why not just insert a constant value for the result of 10! yourself?
Often, the hardest part of learning language constructs is knowing when *not* to use them.
In standard Forth-83, the joke would be:
forth ?use if unemployed then
But in your case:
forth ?know not if up shut then
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
It's heartening that Java is so popular being a relatively new language and less ugly than the other top runners. You might think pure technical merits of a language would translate directly into market dominance, but inertial forces are strong.
A lot of the languages are legacy (no COBOL, though) such as VB, which is kind of ugly but practical like JavaScript, which is semi-detestable in its own right.
But it reminds me that the IT world is a practical place full of ugly old legacy code that needs to be fixed, maintained and "slightly enhanced"
Everyone hopes to get a job with a clean sexy new language (designing Ferrari's), but the reality is much different (fixing Chevy's).
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Show me another system running 50,000 users that performs as well as SF.net.
There are many sites with far more users than SourceForge. Most of them run much better, too. Simple corporate sites like Macromedia.com have 1-2 millions of users. Sites like Ebay and Amazon are pushing 100 million users.
Moderators save your points You're not going to hurt Anonymous Cowards Karma.
I didn't realize the point of moderation was to hurt or help people's karma. I thought the point of moderation was to increase the (visible) signal to noise ratio. If the grandparent is a troll, and my threshold is set to zero, I don't want to have to read it regardless of whether or not a mod can hurt the user's karma by down-modding them. Of course this all assumes that the mods know what they are doing.
Why not fork?