Slashdot Mirror
Rendezvous, Microsoft And Apple
serendigital writes "MacCentral reports that a BusinessWeek article entitled: 'A Rendezvous with Redmond?' has -- with Rendezvous -- created an actual threat to Microsoft. As reported by MacCentral, it's interesting to note that BusinesWeek's 'Byte of the Apple' columnist Charles Haddad is on temporary leave and this article was written by a substitute columnist."
They come out with the coolest technologies and they just work great!
That's what she said.
I can't believe I actually posted this. Wait...Yeah, I can.
WHY is this interesting to note?? Charles Haddad is nothing but an apple apologist, a real zealot. Have you read his previous articles? They are all sugar-coated for Apple. He runs the Apple column at that site, so this is to be expected of course, but I prefer more objectivity.
What did you mean by the normal columnist is out? Were you implying that the coverage was more indepth?
The author suggests that Apple should release a Rendezvous enabled VOIP app. It seems to me that he's almost hit the nail on the head. Imagine if all new Macs came with not only that app, but also a phone jack that you could plug your telephone into. Maybe partner with a long distance company to provide a .Mac internet-to-phone calling plan! The possibilities are wide open for a company who owns the hardware, the software, and has little bit of capital.
the real question is if this will dissapear into obscurity as JINI has (a similar technology using Java).
A lot of the technology behind this seems very cool in nature, but just like AppleTalk (which had many similar zeroconf features) i can't imagine it will scale very well. Although this article would love you to think otherwise, I would imagine this whole thing would have more of an effect on the home market then on the buisiness market. I can see not wanting configure applications on small network, but with all of these broadcast packets i would imagine it would saturate a low speed (read:wireless) network.
...
Oh yeah, and
"Here's another idea that crossed my mind. How about using Rendezvous to power local-phone traffic inside a midsize office? Get rid of the wires. Use cheap voice-over-IP phones plugged into Macs equipped with Wi-Fi cards. No more need for inside plant specialists to check wiring or string cables to the desks."
Oh yeah, I -REALLY- want my phone to drop out whenever someone tries to microwave their lunch.
All of this is fun for small networks, but there is a reason no one has done a lot of this before, because it doesn't scale well.
Having trouble parsing the Slashdot story... is Rendezvous actually a threat, or is it just the BusinessWeek article that's a threat?
I work for a high-tech company, that must remain nameless, and in my work I talk to IT people on a regular basses across the U.S. I am astounded that most of these people even have jobs. I must however convey that every now and then I come across a person of the highest integrity and the ability to get the job done right. The sad part is, that this only happens in about one in twenty contacts, way too low of a number to have these people running our country. When they've been bad, I have no idea how the company is even running, but when they've been good, it's been crystal clear why they hold that position and are an asset to the computing world.
Food for thought, when ever I converse with the people who do a great job and run they're IT department efficiently, and Apple/Macintosh is part of the conversation, they have no problem with it. I quote in a conversation just last Friday, "in our company we do what ever it takes to get the job done in the most efficient and effective way, at this time Mac's are not part of our makeup, but if that's the direction we need to go in the future, then we will. I am loyal to my company, not Microsoft and certainly not Dell.
I was pleasantly surprised when I noticed that "Pop-pop" is rendezvous-enabled. No need to "host" a game -- you just see each other, double-click to request a game.
What is interesting is that even though "normal host a game over IP" stuff still works, and is dead-easy to config, rendezvous seems to be relatively easy to drop into an app.
I was skeptical at first, but now I'm curious to see what neato things people will start to implement using rendezvous.
-- clvrmnky
How does that fit into Rendezvous?
"You walked into a room bearing a laptop running Jaguar (the latest version of the OS X operating system) with a wireless networking (Wi-Fi) card, and you could instantly see the iTunes music files of everyone else in the room with a similar setup."
AWESOME!!!
-H. Rosen
What's the state of ZeroConf on Linux? How long before the major distributions have out-of-the-box support for Rendezvous? What would be required to make that happen?
Also, what exactly are the security implications? Obviously there are certain things you don't want to broadcast to just anybody! Rendezvous could make wardriving even easier...
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Wait, you wouldn't NEED a beowulf cluster, with the Rendezvous-enabled programs CPU-shifting the work in your office.
It seems to me that zero configuration automatic sharing of resources is exactly what I don't want.
I'm seeing a lot of features but where is the security? This looks a lot like how older versions of windows used to share the contents of your drive over ethernet but not dialup without asking and theres a good reason they stopped doing that.
Or have I missed something?
OSS should talk to this cute new thechnology 8)
;D
where is the sourceforge project? Id be among the first to use it
I know that USB printer sharing is not technically Rendevous yet, but new printers will support this. I was astonished when I was able to print off a printer shared on my brother's computer by simply clicking "printer sharing" on his computer. If this is how good it will get with any printer, the world will indeed be a better place.
If Redmond is smart, they will jump on the bandwagon. It would be great if I could communicate with my stupid XP box with my brilliant G4 iMac just as easy as it does the printer.
Could the Belle of Cupertino and the Stud of Redmond be the hottest new couple on the Siliconwood stage? That's what this gossip reporter tried to find out this week, but alas there was little 411 to be found as intimate confidantes of both parties were tight lipped and mum!
Apple and Microsoft we heard to be discussing a "rendezvous" of some sort. Could it be merely a business deal, or a romantic entanglement? Une telle excitation!
Only time will tell, sassy tech fans! Maybe Microsoft can only tell us how Apple signs a contract. But if the stars favor romance as Valentine's Day (every geek's FAVORITE holiday!) approaches, perhaps Microsoft will learn if Apple cries out or sighs softly or squeals like a pig as she, well, consummates the deal, if you know what I mean.
And I know you know, you naughty voyeurs! ;-) Une fessée sur le fond pour vous!
--- Ban humanity.
Yep I can see it now, people will hear about this and run out and by a 3000$ grapefruit flavored pc because they can't click the button on their computer the runs the network setup wizard in XP. hmmm...I don't think so. So apparently to get an article posted it has to be anti- microsoft, because lord knows their is no pro microsoft news that might be important to hear.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
why?
because its open source...
Ironicly this is in redmond favor.... since if they ever see it as a threat to themselves due to their lack of such a feature, they'll simply incorporate it... And with that the advantage apple had over MS is gone.
With the major printers on board amongst others begining to support it.... I highly doubt it will take Bill long to make sure MS also supports it AND adds their own special "windows enhanced" features to it.
This whole situation is anologous to when apple made the USB only imac.... in a time when USB was common, but USB products weren't.... Apple suddenly created a greatly under-supported market.... which suddenly rushed to fill the whole with plethras of USB devices.... that didn't even take a year to become predominatly PC.
--Enter The Sig --
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
This article is perfectible...
The first thing Apple shipped using rendez-vous was iChat. The iTunes demo refered to has yet to ship. (you can get the same fuctionnality using iCommune though).
Then, it's not that magical. It only works on one subnet, no way to manually add hosts to the resolver (at least not without serious hacking).
What's the deal with Safari helping you change your printer config? IF your printer advertises itself as a web serveur via Rendez-vous, AND you ask safari to display Rendez-vous-discovered bookmarks, then yes, you can directly access the printer's config pages. But the article does not make this clear at all. And this is different from auto-discovering printers, which I have yet to test since the old HPs we use are still go for a couple hundred thousand pages.
The wild guesses about distributed computing are still a pipe dream, Rendez-vous or not.
And at work, somehow, aliases of Rendez-vous-mountedd servers won't resolve after unmounting the server. Aliases made of servers mounted via AFP or Appletalk will resolve and mount the server.
Rendez-vous is cool, but it still has a long way to go before it is as polished (from a user POV) as the old Appletalk system.
Not open source?
I wonder what that source download is.
Or mod_rendezvous for Apache.
Or the CVS access.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
What the hell are you talking about?
Rendez-Vous is based on Zero-Config, an open-sourced standard.
Apple merely enhenced it a bit and wrote some high-level APIs for even speedier development. But it's just Zero-Config. Rendez-Vous sources are available as all Darwin source code at Darwin.org.
Sure this "instant networking" is all very cool, but for most geeks in the know, we *want* to be able to configure till we die.
Security restrictions? Can I restrict the range of IP addresses that access my music folders? Password access? Encryption? I wanna tweak dammit! The problem with that is that as soon as you make the system more powerful and have all these geek-satisfying options, you need to be able to get down to the nuts and bolts of configuring it. Otherwise you end up in the same mess as MS, with users blindly enabling potentially insecure servers.
"In mathematics, it's not enough to read the words -- you have to hear the music"
a) Ignore
b) FUD
c) Embrace/extend/destroy
One important question: Does the Apple Public Source License (under which Rendezvous has been released) give Apple the ability to stop Microsoft from embracing/extending/destroying?
Well you are right on one thing they don't waste money arguing on OSS projects, they just waste time. Time is not worth anyone to geeks.
Don't get me wrong: Rendezvous looks like a decent and simple standard, and if it gets widely supported, that would be great. It's also great that all the fanfare surrounding Rendezvous gets people thinking about how to make their applications configure themselves with less user intervention. But the existence of Rendezvous isn't a problem for Microsoft, and it isn't something groundbreakingly new either.
2) Rendevous must be limited to a broadcast subnet. In my work site, subnets kind of snake all through the site due to historical reasons and growth over the years, so the subnet I am on spans two buildings, where across the hall those folks are on a different subnet. I know of a few cube office rooms where people in the same room are on two different subnets. Is there support in cisco routers to forward this traffic between nets? (or maybe that's not a good idea...)
3) ok, i lied. three things. Since when did itunes get ability to pick up other rendevous user playlists? (mentioned in that article). I sure don't see it... Am I missing something?
Rendezvous is released under the Apple Public Source License.
Seriously... the weakest point of any network is its users. Give your users enough rope, and they will hang themselves. However, when they hang themselves, it's up to the Sys admins to come to the rescue.
This is why lockdowns exist. They keep Joe User from randomly changing settings he doesn't understand, and accessing files he's not supposed to access.
As a sys admin, I DO NOT WANT random people being able to print to my printers just because they have a wireless card. The article mentions that they "don't even need to be on the network". So, lemme get this straight - any shmoe with a Rendezvous-enabled Mac can print to my printer, without getting permission? Even, say, somebody sitting outside the building?
This may be nice in a home environment, but I don't see how this is anything but a threat to business security. I have never read about rendezvous anywhere besides this article, so perhaps there's some administrative stuff I don't know about. For now, though, I think I'll stick with having a secure network. You want to print to the office printer? Call me first. How hard is that?
As the article pointed out, Apple has released the source code, it's platform-agnostic.
You want to see this widely adopted in Windows and Linux? Develop some cool peripherals that showcase the technology.
Here is a PDF file that explains the technology behind this a little better...but does not go into too much detail regarding security. It sounds like you can choose what you want to share.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke
i use to spend so much money on printing and distributing my ads to local busnisess, but since i got my powerbook, with OSX its been so much easier.
i wrote a custom script to find printers and printout ads, now i just drive arround town and print out ads at businesses that have new printers and WiFI, and since then by phone has been going nuts, business couldn't be better.
and A. Hole, and i'm a door to door spam man.
Funny, earlier you said it was a 300MHz Mac. Maybe the problem is the interface between the chair and the keyboard.
You'd be surprised how well this actually scales. That is one of the whole points. Rendezvous is a replacement to AppleTalk, and as such one of the major goals is not to saturate the network like other more chatty protocols.
For instance, each host implements an aggressive caching scheme so if one host asks for data, other hosts can learn from its request. There is also an exponentially rising delay between each request, the assumption being a host that has been around a long time will continue to be around a long time. Further, Rendezvous requests are not just like broadcast pings. They have a very well defined (and specific) domain standard in multicast DNS. You could ask only for http servers running over TCP, or only iPhoto sharing servers. This cuts down on the traffic.
Of course, the other problem is the dynamic IP address assignment. It chooses an IP out of a /16 subnet. In short, in order for there to be a high probability of collision there need to be more than 32768 hosts, and even then it'll converge quickly. The Zeroconf spec gives upper bounds on how many hosts should be in a zeroconf network.
The whole idea of this system is to allow small isolated subnets (like a wireless zone) to auto-configure. After the first 20,000 devices, sure you might see some degredation in performance. Of course, imagine an admintaking care of a 20,000 device subnet. They end up like a cross between Jerry Lewis and Christopher Lloyd. If you need more subnets then you link them via a configured host. A proxy-gateway with rendezvous, forwarding only things that matter for this subnet, would be a pretty cool app too.
Zeroconf, especially in the home or small office setting, is really, really useful.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
If you hurry, you might be able to get one in time to save Valentine's Day.
Not when peripheral vendors are building it into their hardware!
Jini was being hyped while it was still vaporware. Apple popped the cap on Rendevous just at the right time.
For more on this, read Joel's recent article.
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
This article talks nothing about security. From what I can tell I can make my laptop hop on anybodies network and start printing stuff. Seems like the insecurity possibilities outweight the good.
Believe me, if I started murdering people, there would be none of you left.
To them, Rendezvous will be the ultimate P2P software that will allow people to share, and they don't like people sharing. Another good tech (like DAT) killed by money grubbing.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
Since Rendezvous is based on Zeroconf, here is an paper explaining how to secure a zerconf network. Perhaps this will slow the FUD.
Rendezvous is not just an Apple product - it is on the way to being an Internet standard, with an IETF working group and two Internet drafts in progress - one on Auto configuration of hosts and the other on the Dynamic configuration of IP Addresses.
At the ZeroConf WG meetings I have been to, Microsoft was very much present, so I assume that they are well aware of this technology.
The big criticism of of AppleTalk was that it was too chatty (really, I think the issue was overblown, but that was the reputation it picked up). And yet, Rendezvous seems to be doing a lot of the same things that AppleTalk was doing.
Has Rendezvous really addressed the issue that got AppleTalk locked out of a lot of corporate networks? I wonder how it compares to AT.
As mentioned, since Rendezvous is based on zeroconf, here is a paper explaining how to secure a zerconf network. Facts vs. FUD. Let the better approach win.
Here ya go: Rendezvous open source project.
Look at Apple's open source developer page for more sweet, juicy code.
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
--Enter The Sig--
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
OS/2, Windows, and Unix with Samba has had this abiltiy for quite a while.
On Windows, this is accessable via Network Neighborhood.
As far as IP configuration, with DynDNS and DHCP, it's zero-configuration and you get a sensible name.
I really don't see how this "rendezvous" is useful at all considering the prior art.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
Yeah, but it could be better.
...Bill's boxes to Steve's elegant machines.
from the article:
This is the kind of subjectivity that has no place in real journalism. Zealots are Apple's real threat. So many people hear "Apple" and think "using a Powerbook at a Starbucks, sipping a latte, dressed in black." Apple users are art-fags to them, and derogatory comments about "Windoze" aren't going to do anything but make it worse.
How about some fucking objectivity? Lemmie give you a tip, Sparky - people will take you more seriously when you say "Apple's new technology poses a real threat to MS" if you don't follow it with "I'm getting a sex change so I could maybe have Steve's baby"
c-hack.com |
That's the point. It's not written by the guy who is known to be a real zealot.
The funny thing is this poster used the same post in an earlier Apple thread except the Mac in the first post was a 300MHz 8500. reminds me of the ADB laptops UNIX guy. Lame. Here I am in front of my Athlon T-bird 3 GHz and it can't play a wmv file. I've got a Performa 636 here that runs faster than this 3 GHz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the PC is a superior machine.
Does anyone have stats on how this effects bandwidth usage? Am I right in understanding this is some sort of protocol that allows each network device to broadcast what ports it has open to everyone else on the network all the time? How does this differ from how Windows machines auto-find each other in their Network Neighborhood?
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Apple Developer Site Apple Developer Site
SourceForge SourceForge
Strangeberry Java implementation
International University and Sun Microsystems supported a collaborative research program. Java source code
Funny earlier I had my cock in your mom's mouth but anyway my 1Ghz runs like a 300 Mhz. Sup wit dat!!
Perhaps he should have choosen a lower resolution WMV than 3200x2400...
Personally, I think Rendezvous is going to revolutionize the trade show floor.
The trade show wireless network a small local network, the sort Rendezvous works with. Vendors and consultants will be able to promote themselves by having web sites and servers advertise themselves. You'll be able to find FTP or file servers and grab demo versions of products. You'll be able to chat with representatives. You'll be able to grab contact information into your address book and product release calendars into iCal. Who knows what else?
If Apple creates a Rendezvous implementation for Windows I fail to see how Apple's market share will grow. It will enable PC users to get the benefits of Rendezvous without owning a Mac. It will also allow existing Mac users connect with their PC using co-workers and friends. And since it is a completely open technology the PC users will not even need a Mac involved at all. So that begs the questions, how will this benefit Apple?
Apple does not make money by packaging software and making it available for everyone to use freely. Sure they get to innovate and make their customers happy, but it does not win them more customers. This article seems to imply that creating cool technology and implementing it on a PC will help Apple. There needs to be some proprietary software in place for this to be true.
Now if they created a Rendezvous implementation for corporate environments and a Software Development Kit to be used by companies like IBM. At work I use Lotus Notes which has a messenger client. I would like to automatically find co-workers without all of the initial setup that I had to do when I started using it. I would also like to be able to monitor the servers on the network and use the printers more easily. If Apple could sell software to do all of that, and perhaps sell XServe systems with it I bet that would benefit Apple.
I really hope Apple does break into the corporate workplace. It would really simplify much of extra work that I do so I can get back to my real work.
Brennan Stehling - http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/
I'm seeing a lot of knee-jerk reactions about Rendezvous and security. People are assuming that because the protocol is about making certain types of network configuration dynamic and simple, it is necessarily insecure. Well, I've got news for you: any type of connection from one computer to another is creating security issues. I mean...duh. Now, clearly using something like the zeroconf protocol is going to require stuff like...passwords and encryption and all the usual nonsense we need to make things secure. Oh, and a competent sysadmin administrating the system. So can we cool it with the frothing?
Now, if someone had some good comments on the security issues involved with the zeroconf protocol itself, I'd like to read about it.
Why didn't they bother to throw SGI into the mix?
http://www.sgi.com/products/storage/
hmmm
That is easy, as soon as someone implements Rendezvous, seeing how it is open source... I love Apple!
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
Mod parent up as "Insightful" and "Funny" as well as being dead on accurate. LOL.
The article is wrong on this point. iTunes does not support Rendezvous or sharing. But what if it did? Would strangers be sharing music at Starbucks, airport terminals, college lecture halls or other places where Wi-Fi enabled laptops congregate?
The Register takes this scenario one step further with the Rendez-Pod, a Bluetooth and Rendezvous enabled iPod. "You could get promiscuous with strangers: you could pair and exchange a song on the same short bus ride."
I believe the point that the author was making was that this is one more tool to reduce platform-dependence. The more freely programs and peripherals are able to communicate with one another across various platforms, the more Microsoft and Windows shrink into the background.
That's why MS got all fired up about stomping Netscape into the ground, because the browser is supposed to enable platform-independent computing.
Yeah, it's kind of a stretch to think of Rendezvous as a "Windows killer," but it's just one technology of many to accomplish that task.
Google for 'ad hoc file sharing'.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
this from a mac fan
Oh no you found me out. Oh good I'm almost done blowing though the money from your mom's last welfare check. Asslick!! :)
But in that case an employee should be able to bring an Apple laptop into work and be able to use it just as effectively as a PC laptop. This can't help but to spur hardware sales whether or not Windows software gets in the mix. And remember, hardware is going to be in the mix anyway.
I thought that enabling PC users to get the benifts was almost the point of this kind of thing. Instead of Apple trying to adapt to a Windows standard, everyone uses a standard that Apple knows pretty well how to deal with. Apple can play well with others using an open standard. They aren't the misfit children anymore.
this technology is only insecure because of the lack of any premissions or access control lists. throw that in there and this is definitely a killer app.
> it's the unfortunate truth that it is still hard to do anything meaningful with a Mac.
Have you actually tried lately? I like to think my work over the last four years has been "meaningful", and I am NOT a graphic artist.
Although I have a Win NT 4 box, a Win 2K box, and a Mandrake Linux box, I still much prefer to use my Mac.
The breathless, gee-whiz high school girl tone of this latest press release is typical Macinista writing...
Sure they get to innovate and make their customers happy, but it does not win them more customers. This article seems to imply that creating cool technology and implementing it on a PC will help Apple. There needs to be some proprietary software in place for this to be true. Maybe they are betting you are wrong. I can see where innovating and making their customers happy might win them more customers. In fact I am at the point now of considering my first mac, and I know I am not the only one.
JWall: GUI client for IPTables
OK -
for the record, Rendezvous is the Apple implementation of ZeroConf, a protocol well on it's way to becoming a standard. Much like Apple renamed AltiVec the "Velocity Engine", it's something that Apple did not invent, and is simply incorporating into their system...
By-the-by, ZeroConf for wireless (at least 802.11b) works pretty good under Windows XP. It's not particularly restricted to any application - installing your wireless stuff in "Ad-hoc" mode (similar in many ways to the old AppleTalk approach) makes all systems in range visible. Gnutella, and most any networking capable application "Just Works" over it. I hadn't realized that Apple needed to specially adapt their applications to take advantage of ZeroConf, or as they like to call it, Rendezvous.
Don't get me wrong, Apple makes some nice looking hardware, and they have a great marketing team - but when you get right down to it, they're just like Microsoft. A business.
Sure they get to innovate and make their customers happy, but it does not win them more customers. This article seems to imply that creating cool technology and implementing it on a PC will help Apple. There needs to be some proprietary software in place for this to be true.
Maybe they are betting you are wrong. I can see where innovating and making their customers happy might win them more customers. In fact I am at the point now of considering my first mac, and I know I am not the only one.
mental note to self - use the preview
JWall: GUI client for IPTables
Paperclip? That's the most out-of-date trolling I've seen in a while, LOL. Here let me finish for you:
is like General Motors feeling threatened by the the U.S. Interstate Highway system.
Microsoft just continues its ongoing slide into irrelevancy. They add nothing to the industry.
Moto Man
The best demo of Rendezvous currently is iChat. I used it to wow one of my clients back in December when I upgraded them to Jaguar. They were always having to e-mail files back and forth to one another, blah blah blah.
Now, they just launch iChat when they log in in the morning, and boom-- instant, zero-config buddy list of everyone in the department. Need to ask someone a question? No more hollering over cubes or using the phone, a quick IM does the trick. Need to send someone a file? No more e-mailing or putting it on the server for the person who needs it. Drag it and drop it onto their name in the buddy list, and they'll get a dialog, "Person wants to send you file filename, do you wish to accept?"
The only people who think something like this is a bad thing are the ignorant ones. OF COURSE the devices that use Rendezvous will OFFER security and configurability options-- but the point is, you don't NEED them if all you want to do is get on a network and print to a networked printer. And you don't need to have silly little wizards walk you through the process. Rendezvous is the logical extension of Apple's whole 'it just works' philosophy, and is a wonderful modern incarnation of AppleTalk.
~Philly
It's quite relevant. One of the points of the article was that I/T configuration is a significant cost for companies, and the poster took it further by pointing out that competent I/T help is a factor that exacerbates the problem. The poster also correctly points out that in some places, Apple faces a severe uphill climb, because they're not even considered by some I/T "professionals" who've never given their products more than a cursory examination. In other places, I/T professionals (actual ones) have a wide grasp of technologies, not tied to a single vendor or platform, and they'll use whichever one seems to be the best value for the investment.
Apple solutions aren't always going to be the best. I'm not claiming that. I'd even go so far as to say that sometimes, using MS stuff is the right thing for a company or project, despite the fact that I detest their business practices (and think they've earned every bit of antipathy they've received). But the bottom line is: there's a world of I/T and software workers out there who'll never even consider (let alone attempt to become proficient with) technologies outside their favorites, and that's simply not professional. No company or platform out there holds a monopoly on good ideas.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
m$ is a software company, they copy and clone.
apple is a true technology company, they innovate.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Do your research
Here's a brief fragment from the page you were talking about:
Next, click the Advanced tab at the top of the window. Select Computer to computer (ad hoc) networks only and clear the Automatically connect to non-preferred networks box if it is selected. This setting, along with removing preferred networks, ensures connection to the ad hoc network only.
Click the Wireless Networks tab again. Under Preferred Networks, click Add, as shown in Figure 1. In the Wireless Network Properties dialog box, specify a Network name (SSID). Use any name desired, but be sure to use it to configure all computers. Note that the network type is already marked as a computer-to-computer network and that this cannot be changed since it has already been specified that a connection should be made to only ad hoc networks.
Sounds like typical Windows stuff to me - certainly not zero-conf. The link is here.
Doesn't the fact that a whole article falls under the "expertzone" tells you a little something about how easy this really is for the average user?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
As a sys admin, I DO NOT WANT random people being able to print to my printers just because they have a wireless card.
Then you should have security on your network. If they can print to your printer with Rendezvous, they can print to your printer without Rendezvous.
So, lemme get this straight - any shmoe with a Rendezvous-enabled Mac can print to my printer, without getting permission?
No. Rendezvous does IP address allocation, IP/name translation, and service discovery. It has nothing to do with authentication.
I have never read about rendezvous anywhere besides this article, so perhaps there's some administrative stuff I don't know about.
Maybe you should do your homework before commenting next time.
Hey, slashdot ate my link!! Anyway, the link is here.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
OT, I know, but I keep seeing this, and I must've missed it when it started:
Why are beowulf clusters funny?
From the article:
``It's a form of distributed computing with no middleman required. That's a use for Rendezvous no one had thought of before.''
What? Nobody had thought of making a Beowulf cluster?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
He didn't write "Apple Sux" or "Apple is doomed" even once.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I want to plug in my XP box and see everyone playing the game at the lan party....then I don't have to worry about all the dam config crap or anything...now THAT is plug and play.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
"It's a form of distributed computing with no middleman required. "
You mean I can write wor...I mean software that will automatically find the most available hosts to infe...I mean utilize? And network resources are instantly available to me with little or no authentication?
Open WAPS just get more and more problematic. Imagine wireless aware worms that spread through the air quickly rendering the airwaves useless.
Imagine your printers printing 1000's of worm initiated pages of X11 camera ads or something...
The authentication mechanisms and potentials for abuse involved in these 'features' are truly scary.
Try browsing a Windows network. Yes you can connect, but (to quote an earlier post) you have to write down the address. There isn't anything equivalent to clicking on Network Neighborhood or Computers Near Me and seeing everything. You have to know IP addresses and so forth for printers. Further the printer drivers for OSX are often inferior to XP versions.
Upgrade to OSX v 10.2 that came out 6 months ago. I think you will find all of your windows servers will show up in the connect to server dialog box. Want to make your own workgoup? Go to the Directory Access application and select SMB, and type in your workgroup or join an NT domain. As far as printers go, there is Rendezvous which configures it for you basically, and if you don't have that, the Print center application lists all the printers on your network. All you have to do is pick one. Funny you mention MS networking on Windows, last time I checked configuring NetBEUi or SMB/TCP of whatever flavor they are using now was still black magic on Windows. (Control Panels -> Add Protocol - > restart doh didn't work, ok forgot to log in instead of pressing cancel, oh wait I have to bind it to a port... now it takes 10 minutes for the network neighborhood to pick up the change... arg!)
Far better to implement a technology centered around mostly newer machines from a small niche in the market than a cross-platform open language-centric technology that works with virtually (heh) any machine.
Why, they might even eventually reach 100% market share with all 3% (and shrinking) of the market! Silly Sun, you should have made Java only work on Blades and your servers, then you'd have a real chance of success.
Hello... Earth to SlashDot... Is anyone there...?
UPnP is an industry standard which does everything Rendevouz does and more, and it's been around for quite a bit longer.
:) man I get a lot of mileage out of that one too!!
- Open up Print Center
- Click the "Add Printer" button
- Select "AppleTalk" as the protocol
- Select the printer that appeared
Dang! I didn't know that JetDirect cards supported AppleTalk! So the moral there is, somewhere in some obscure technical bulletin (probably, knowing HP) there are instructions for setting the name of the JetDirect card.The really sweet part came a few weeks later when I wanted to print a document from OpenOffice. I had never configured the printer settings within X11, and have never even touched
This contrasts very favorably to the time 8 months ago when I configured my Dell laptop with RedHat 7.3 to print to the LaserJet at home.
Oh, go on, check out my job.
Apple was also involved in the creation of the Zeroconf standard with the IETF. I'm not sure what your point is.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
well all the imacs where i work have the paperclip reset buttons.
THERE IS NO DATA. THERE IS O
Probably won't happen. Apple released PPC only code in objective-c which is rarely used outside of Apple. Quicker to rewrite another standard from scratch that to port their stuff to x86 and C++.
are you sure it's a paperclip reset button? are you sure it isnt NOTHING? (sorry) seriously, which iMacs? i know the slot loading ones just have a little button, which can be pressed with any old stubby finger. or you can hit the power button on the from that's not recessed at all... i have no idea about the flat screen iMacs though...
I give Apple 3 years and they'll drop Rendezvous and support for it, and then move on to something else that "sounds cool" and will sell there over priced yuppie magnets.
Haddad has been on leave for weeks (months?). What's the relevance of that? /. you got things started off screwed up again.
/. and Mondays go well together. ;)
Must be Monday.
the original tray loading iMacs (333 Mhz G3 Rev C and earlier) have the paper clip reset button located on the right side in the same area as your other ports. Beginning with the slot-loading iMacs, Apple changed from the paper clip reset button to a simple button you press with your fingertips.
Hey, great!! Apple saves the world yet AGAIN!!
However, I plan to wait for the release of the mag-lev iPod which will float elegantly around to each board member at the table, taking orders for half-caf/half-decaf lattes, then waft down the stairs to speak to the kitchen crew's iPods, which will . . . . oh, hell, you get the idea.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
Also, in this column he dug up his own reasons to be impressed with Rendezvous (unless he had a reviewer's guide that mentions stuff Apple hasn't brought up before; it could happen.)
no flat screens here. and no it isn't NOTHING. it is a little hole that we have to stick a paper clip in when it freezes. not every time it freezes though, sometimes the normal ctrl-apple-esc(something like that) works well enough. you could point and laugh and say "you cheapskates should just upgrade," and then i'd say "my NT box doesn't need a paperclip, or even a reset button, and i can't even remember the last time that i've used ctrl-alt-delete."
THERE IS NO DATA. THERE IS O
You can print without being logged on to the network. Ummm.. who here is in IT. I am. It's called a major security risk to allow traffic onto your network from unknown hardware. ANYTIME. Whatever. Good for home use. Sucks for corporate use.
Well, the article sure made it out like Rendezvous was something _only_ Apple had done. And, a lot of people think only Apple has ZeroConf in the form of Rendezvous. So my points were the following:
1> Rendezvous is Apple's specific implementation of ZeroConf. There are other implementations - maybe not as slick as Rendezvous, but there are others.
2> ZeroConf is not solely an invention of Apple's - they are part of the working group that has defined the standard. That working group consists of a lot of network vendors and some OS vendors.
Additionally, it's really just an attempt to correct the Apple equivalent to spew the opposite of FUD. They're a good company - but they aren't necessarily "Humanity's last, best hope". They have a very real tendency to exaggerate their involvement on occassion (Altivec != super computer), and certainly don't take any steps to correct positive erronious reports about their products...
I don't really care what OS or hardware I use, so long as I can get my job done - it's not a religion, so I wish their acolytes would lay off on the sermonizing and proslytizing.
While they didn't invent zero-conf I believe that the head of the steering committee is and has been a full time Apple employee.
Go out and get sailing!
Rendezvous is just Apples implementation of ZeroConf (an IETF standard). It is a beautiful implementation, but it's not like they pulled this out of thin air. This is also about Apple FINALLY switching to IP as their primary protocol.
It is really neat, though.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
"Run this Method with this Object, send the results Here"
... cooler ... Objective-C style way of writing that, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at ...
... Rendezvous can provide that degree of negotiation.
.NET strategy clearly has extreme weaknesses, in this front. Client server is cool and all, but dynamic p2p-style networks are all the vogue ... and this is only going to extend into the Applications sphere soon enough. Rendezvous will help with that.
... albeit, collectively, wasting lots of idle time.
.NET ... some would say they're well on their way, but the point with Apple is that it's happening with Rendezvous today, using open specs.
I'm sure there's a much
"Pop-Pop" could just as easily have gotten itself a list of servers to hand an object to for processing
The problem with Beowulf-style design has always been in setting things up for code propagation - among *big* computer networks, sure, it's easy and the API's/programming models support large-scale 'cooperative computing initiatives', but it's also cool to write code where additional processors and resources can come online, run code, etc. moderately stochastically.
Only, it's been difficult to manage. Ask any P2P network designer, she'll tell you.
Rendezvous is an attempt to solve that issue of service negotiation (and, consequently, propagation), finally, and Objective-C's amazing navel-gazing capabilities makes it feasible...
So I guess this was the 'threat' to Microsoft, whose
For example: you fire up iVideo, and need some extra resources for Rendering abilities, so it gets a Rendezvous list of machines on your network currently idle and willing to participate in the processing. iVideo uses this list, and some pretty cool features of the Objective-C language, to propagate work out to these computers. This can be done seamlessly, without requiring any user interaction.
And it puts an *awful* lot more computing power in the hands of folks that need it, such as the those that work in the visual/graphic arts, where its not uncommon to have an entire network of Photoshop stations in active use
However, given the hardware numbers, it won't take much for MS to 'catch up' to the notion of trusted, distributed computing and steer away from the client/server tendencies of
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Windows XP auto-discovers network printers. Another example of Micorosoft innovation.
I see a lot of people here confused on what Rendezvous really is.
Rendezvous is:
A) A way for machines coming onto a network to automatically obtain an IP.
B) A way for machines to browse services that applications are making public on these machines in a unform, domain-qualified way (mDNS, similar to DNS).
Rendezvous is not:
A) A magic elixir that will change the way we do networking on a grand scale. Rendezvous is ONLY for _one_ subnet. While any standard tcp/ip briding stuff will work, rendezvous will only play inside that subnet. However, within that subnet there is a lot of automation.
B) A security hole. Rendezvous doesn't share things, it merely allows you to DISCOVER if anyone is sharing them. This doesn't mean a script kid is going to hack you. It merely means they know if you are running services, which they could have found out allready. Further, since it's only on the local network, a large variety of much more dangerous attacks already exist (TCP spoof, ARP attacks)
C) A project Apple stole/A project Apple trumped up. A lot of people have been working on zeroconf for quite some time now, and Apple managed to get a few people in because they wanted something like Zeroconf. Apple has a working implementation of Zeroconf called rendezvous, but they do not have a lock on the protocol and the code is open for download and perusal.
I hope this helps people (who find this post admist the noise) who don't know what to believe.
You can find all this out yourself at
http://www.zeroconf.org
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Rendevous is "simply" a discovery technology. It's very neet, but JINI offered more on top of that.
Conceptually, there's no reason that JINI couldn't be implemented on top of Rendevous.
With Rendevous, you can cast a token to the wind and find compatable peers. With JINI, you cast data to the wind and have it, eventually, land where it's appropriate.
Another nice feature of JINI (enabled by the JVM) is the concept of essentially "net booting" services that download drivers "on the fly".
Conceptually this could be done with Rendevous as well, but obviously there will be potential cross platform issues.
Rendevous was sold as a simple technology (dynamic discovery), whereas JINI was sold from the Applications on down, versus infrastructure on up.
They both can learn from each other I think.
No, the editor, Hemos, took out my comments before posting the article. I said that saying Rendezvouz is a threat was overstating things. I also said, expect Microsoft to announce "Lliason" any day now. I'm sure that Charles Haddad would have written a much more informed article.
The editor, Hemos, took out my comments before posting the article.
I said that implying that Rendezvouz is a threat to Microsoft is grossly overstating the facts.
I also said, "expect Microsoft to announce a product called something like "Lliason" any day now, and to tout it as being highly innovative." ahem
Rendezvouz is VERY COOL, and will cause many people to consider a Macintosh, but a threat to Microsoft, I don't think so. That Rendezvouz increases Apple's viability as an alternative to Microsoft would have been MUCH more accurate. I'm sure that Charles Haddad would have written a much more informed article.
This is great! You could set up a rendezvous-enabled console app that would be able to describe to you the services available to you in whatever room you were in. Just imagine the possibilities! Let's say you took your laptop to a new company...
*user walks into a room*
Frobozz Magic Smoke Company Lobby
You have entered the lobby of the Frobozz Magic Smoke Company. This building was constructed in the year 1998, by ten thousand slaves working for the Great Underground Empire, to hold the offices of the workers designing and implementing new forms of magic smoke.
> look
You see two broken web terminals, a secured file server, and a print server. One of the secretaries is chatting about how she got her nails done the other day.
*user walks north into the Human Resources department*
Human Resources
The Human Resources department of the Frobozz Magic Smoke Company is widely considered to be the cruelest, most inhuman lot of soulless minions ever to serve the will of evil.
> look
You see two printers, a Sybase server, a Graphite G4, a speed-hole G4, and a voicephone.
> look G4
Do you mean the Graphite G4 or the speed-hole G4?
> graphite
The Graphite G4 is sharing two directories, marked 'music' and 'porn', and has 82% CPU free.
The potential is amazing! Go Apple!
--Dan
The ZeroConf working group is headed up by one employee each from Sun and Apple, with one more each from Sun and IBM acting as 'area managers' or something like that. Microsoft isn't controlling this one.
--Dan
Good to know. Thanks.
FYI, here is a FAQ on Apple Rendezvous and Zeroconf
Is it a stupid criteria? Maybe. But it's a criteria nonetheless.
And the nitpick award goes to....me!
Criterion - not criteria.
Thank me for pecking at your each and every perceived deficiency.
James
Last post!
This is just outright bullshit. Why do people make up shit like this?
Apple has already developed and released the library code and even example client application code specifically targeted at Posix, Win32 and VxWorks systems as well as OS 9 and OS X. It's on the Public Source website. And all the portable stuff is all in C. The only objective-C stuff are the parts that are specifically targeted at OS X development.
And what exactly is 'PPC only code in objective-c'. Do you even know what code is?
My Power Tower Pro 225 is still running smoothly with the original 604, and it boots OS 8.5.1 (which kicks OS9's ass on this machine), debian, and BeOS. Not that I use it much with a G4 867 with OS X sitting here in front of me, but it's a killer machine. Power Computing had the coolest adverts too, you can still find them at powerwatch.
Turn on speech recognition. Use your voice to type an email, and send the email. It's pretty cool, and you can even tell your email program to attach an mp3 file of your voice. If you prefer real-time, just do this through IRC. But what would be really cool is if we can think of a way to have real-time voice-to-voice communication over the phone lines without having to use a computer. Now that would be the killer app.
So not true. That was a demo - not actual functionality. Rendezvous does not 'just work'; try it sometime. If you have a split network (ie some people on wifi and some on ethernet for example, or as is the case here, my mac is on wifi to the neighbour and shares a network out to the rest of the house via ethernet - naughty but nice!) and even iConquer games can't automagically see each other on my network. I have seen iChats fail to see each other in a similar set up. It's a great idea and i'm sure will get there soon, but it is not really there now.
Want to change your printer configuration wirelessly? Apple's speedy new Safari browser will let you do that if your printer is Rendezvous-compatible -- without your having to hunt down a specific IP (Internet protocol) address.
why is this specific to Safari? I understood once rendesvous has announced my printer to my mac then anything capable of using the print cener would be able to use that printer. what sarafi does do is list web servers that have announced themselves via rendesvous in the bookmarks list.
As promised last summer, most of the major printer makers have upgraded their machines to support Rendezvous.
no they havn't, they have announced that they will be doing so however.
This routine normally involves wading through dozens of folders in search of the proper IP addresses for our office printers, a confusing process that has resulted in more than one call to the help desk.
I'm sorry but this is just FUD. Sure it can be a pain to get a printer hooked up to some windoze machines, just as it can be a pain to get some printers to talk to the mac. some printers are just rubbish. now getting Linux to talk to a printer - that can be hard work.
Add enough of these simplifications together, and it becomes hard to refute that running an office network using Rendezvous-equipped Macs will end up costing less than comparable Windows software -- because there really isn't any.
I'm sorry what was that? in proper english sentences this time? was the author paid for this article? do they have any editors working there?
With Windows, you still need a file server and a print server, with Rendezvous and Apple you don't.
riiiight.... - puts pinkie in corner of mouth.
no for sure no-one ever thought to distribute computing load seamlessly across a network. no-one. ever. not ever, nope. just never occured to anyone before. idiot.
Apple has even obligingly offered the Rendezvous software in Windows code. In fact, Apple has open-sourced Rendezvous and released source code for versions designed to work on Linux machines as well.
It's called 'written in C' I believe.
If more Rendezvous-enabled pieces of Windows software start hitting the shelves, slowly but surely, Apple will start to break down the obstacles to switching platforms from Bill's boxes to Steve's elegant machines.
aside from the obvious frothing at the mouth editorialising here, i think it is in apple's interests to let other people do the work of making windows and linux software. apple sell computers and software, M$ sell software and video games consols. should apple just offer to rewrite MS office et al for bill?
it's hard to decide if this article is sh1t or fuçking shit.
ps: If you want a list of software that is Rendezvous compatable, check version tracker.
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
Do you even know what code is?
No; I'm a troll, retard. Today is Apple day, tomorrow is Linux day. Dirty goddamn hippie faggots.
But it's never Windows day, because Windows rules.
I had completely forgotten about that game. Years ago a few buddies from some local BBSs and I would play Bolo late into the night. Great game, and very addictive. Thanks for the link. I'm glad to see it's still around.
That ad got a lot of flack, and I ignored it as I hadn't seen the spot. Last weekend, though, I was checking out the Apple store in NYC and got to see it. She was right! Assume it's Christmas. Dad just got a digital camera. He takes a picture of grandma and wants to print it out on his new photo printer. He plugs the camera and printer into his Windows PC and spends an hour downloading the XP drivers (because the camera only came with WinME), and there's some strange daemon keeping the parallel port open.
-OR-
He plugs all the devices into his Mac. iPhoto comes up automatically and he removes grandma's redeye and crops the picture down, then prints it out five minutes later on the new printer.
That's why I want a Mac. I can (and do) deal with Windows dumbness, but I don't want to have to. On my Mac, I can just do more. My friend tried to get his digital camera working for hours before I came over with my PowerBook and plugged it, opened iMovie, and produced results. That's why I have a Mac.
Here is how the pricing dynamic and competitive matrix works if you manufacture computer hardware (boxes, rather than peripherals).
You *can* compete on price. But you'll never permanently be the cheapest.
You *can* compete on performance. But you'll never hold a permanent lead.
In both cases, your brand of being cheapest or most powerful is never going to be truely believed as you'll get your backside kicked from time to time, and you'll have to both ship vast numbers of boxes, and screw your costs down to an unbelievable level to make it pay. Both of which are Hard(tm).
The low-margin, volume business is really, really tough, and if you're hit by an unexpected change in your cost structure (say the Yen/Dollar exchange rate changing by a fraction of a cent beyond your window), then you're in a hole.
Alternatively, you can do something different (to coin a phrase). You can build something high-margin, based on brand values (ease of use & looks in this case) which can't be so easily attacked. That way, you don't need a huge market share (just enough to be on the right side of Metcalfe's law) to make good, steady cash-cow profits.
And unexpected changes in your cost structure mean you make $99 instead of $100 per sale, rather than going from a $0.50 profit to a $0.50 loss per unit.
Apple's ambition is absolutely not to be Dell (although they're happy to learn lessons in manufacturing and sales from Dell's BTO operation) and depend on low-margin volume, but to be Sony.
That's why the iMac was so important to Apple - it (re)-established that brand and let Apple charge the premium.
You don't want to pay for looks? Fine. You're not in the target market. Apple couldn't care less what you think and won't really invest in changing your mind.
The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's
I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, but I've had a little first hand experience with setting up 802.11b with OS X.2 and Windows XP.
Rendezvous and Ad-hoc networking under XP are two different beasts in my experience. XP buries the functionality behind layers and layers of dialogs, meaning that unless you know it's there, you're not going to use it. For people who know about things like 802.11b that works just fine. For people who think a frame is something that goes around a picture, this just isn't a viable option.
Rendezvous is networking for people who really couldn't care less about networking. They want to get their job done, not mess around with another wizard or twelve-tab dialog box.
Rendezvous is different because it works right out of the box. In my experience, that's all the difference.
Notes From Under *nix: blas.phemo.us
SMB browsing on an un-bridged network works fine and you can access any SMB share with it's address. This should eliminate the argument about not being able to do anything meaningful. More over, if you are using network printers, connecting directly to them over ether-talk makes setting up a windows printer look like a nightmare. LPR printing is also a snap and once Rendezvous enabled printers are more common place things will get even better.
I think the reason there is so much reaction to this thread is that I do everything any windows user does and more on my Mac. When asked when I will switch to windows, I honestly say it will be the day the Mac can not do everything I need with a computer. It does not look like that day will be here soon.
Why was this modded to troll? I seriously wonder about the security implications. Is that such a bad question to ask in a community that previously cared very much about security??
This space for rent, inquire within.
Why do I get the feeling you've not taken a look at a PowerMac. The absolute FIRST thing I noticed when I got my first Mac (2 years ago, thanks to OS X), was how friggen well designed the case was for easy access and configuration. All you have to do is pull a level, and the side opens up (even while running). Everything is layed out perfectly for easy access. ATA connectors are relatively close to the bays for the drives. There are tracks for the belts to be guided. There is NO metal casing blocking your ability to get to your memory, or processor!
I have a scar on my hand (deep one) from having to try and work around the difficult to deal with cases of the PC realm.
Now, as far as compatibility with hardware...
- Memory: no different (aside from being easier to access)
- Hard drives: no different
- Video cards: You have a choice of a couple of the best cards out there. Hell, what's in the Macs is what I actually chose (older models of course in PC) for my PCs. So, I'd prefer the smaller selection in exchange for the lack of headache caused in operating systems trying to support everything and their brother!
- Processor: No different. Go buy a processor upgrade (available at many resellers) and plug the thing in!
- Modems: Why the hell do you need to change it? No ones coming out with a faster modem anymore.
- NIC: Do you KNOW what's in a PowerMac??? They ship standard with Gigabit ethernet! (10/100/1000) I don't anticipate needing to change for a while. And if I do need to, well, it's just a PCI card. Simple upgrade.
So... the real moral of the story is that you need to check on your facts before you go blabbing. You even admit you've not seen the inside of a Mac. I would agree with most of what you said about 5 years ago! But since the latest PowerMac design, they've been using standards buddy! You really ought to check out the latest PowerMacs. I was a hardcore PC advocate (Linux mostly on them)... but I can't imagine going back. Even with slightly higher up front cost... it's friggen worth it!!!
-Alex
My girlfriend and I spent nearly 10 minutes trying to get her camera to work under Windows ME. Then we gave up on it, and tried Linux. It took about 30 seconds - plug the camera in, "mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/camera" and there are the files. On the Macs at Uni, it was just plug in, and it appears on the desktop. We've got Linux doing that now too.
...switch.