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Computers and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome Studied
pioneer writes "An article on MSNBC.com reports that a Danish study has found that computer use is not a significant risk factor for carpal tunnel syndrome. Not sure about you, but I spent a lot of time learning dvorak and kinesis to prevent just that... the 'inevitable' onslaught of RSI/carpal tunnel/etc."
...the wrist can hurt for many reason.
But what about that other activity that is associated with a man, and his wrist. Is it a significant risk factor?
I'm asking....for a friend.
Mike
Tell this to me Captin Jello! I got the Hook to replace my hand loss from Carpal Tunnel. And I lost an Eye from it too. Arr!
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
My opinion is that the younger you started the less likely you are to have problems. I've been at a keyboard since before 10yrs old, and now, over 30, I don't have any problems at all, either eye sight or wrist/hand related. No special keyboards, no left/right hand mouse switching.
M@
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I've been using computers for heavily decades and I've never had any real effects from it all. Ow! Now only if that tingling in my hands would go away...
My journal has hot
Mouse use apparently is slightly higher risk than keyboard use. You MS users better fear us terminal junkies now!
Actually the article says it's a Danish study ...
I'm only suffering from pain in my wrists when i'm stressed, and I think it is *the* cause for it. If it was computer-over-useage, i'd have no wrists left....
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...both of my wrists are cramping up. The more I type, worse my wrists get. Sadly, I'm a programmer. That doesn't help things. I cannot agree with a study that tries to disassociate repetitive motion with RMI. That's just bologna.
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RTFA! It's Danish, not Dutch! Geez!
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
that since I've been using computers since 1st grade (I'm now out in the world working), that it was a load of crap.
Also, my eyesight hasn't gotten worse, it's better.
Oh well, I wonder how long until that study comes out.
since when is Danish the same as Dutch??
All Americans should be given maps and be made to study it. It is embarrasing!!
But I know for a fact that a 10 hour playstation session can cause me to develop some awful pain in my fingers.
Is Nintendo thumb an accepted medical term yet?
As far as I can tell carpal tunnel syndrome occurs mostly in people with desk jobs that involve computers, not industrial work, which was mentioned as a possible cause in the study. If it's not keyboard use then what is it?
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If the article header is accurate, then Pioneer should be informed that carpal tunnel syndrome is only an INSTANCE of RSI, and the two are not equal. It is, in fact, still possible that every single other type of RSI has computer use as a significant risk factor and not contradict this study.
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I don't know about you, but my computer usage averages about 10 hours a day. However, I don't know if I actually type for 7 hours out of the ten, after factoring in meetings and other productivity boosters.
I worry more about my eyes than wrists. I may not be typing 100 wpm constantly, but I am looking at my monitors even when not typing.
Pretty fair trade, I think. So there! heh.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
Okay. Either I misread it the first time over, or the editor in charge already changed it (I hope the latter, otherwise eye sight problems might have been induced by severe monitor use)
:)
But to reply on the matter at hand (no pun intended), any sort of work which forces you into the same type of repetitive movements or the same position for hours on end, has serious health repercussions. If this study 'proves' (for as far as you can do that in a statistical study) that computer keyboard use isn't the primary cause for CTS, then it's still a useless study. If it would have been a study to what *does* cause these kind of problems, it would be of a lot more use to the generic population of computer users.
I'll wait for this study to appear before drawing any conclusions. On the base of this article, any comment would be straining for significance. It doesn't describe the testing methods, it doesn't describe the age group, it doesn't describe the previous work, etc, etc.
On just this article, I don't think anyone can make any intelligent comments (and I'll include myself in that as well
Mad.
Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
If this is the case, I wonder how it came to be that computer use was associated with RSI/carpal tunnel.
I had always heard (can anyone verify this?) that it was mouse use, in particular with scroll-wheels, that was the main offender.
but I spent a lot of time learning dvorak and kinesis to prevent just that
Maybe if he'd put some more time into telekinesis he'd still have a useful skill.
This is the NFL, which stands for "Not For Long" if you keep making those bulls*** calls.
Computer use is no more a cause for repetitive stress injuries than any other activity. The difference is that people don't seem to stop for a while when their bodies tell them to.
I've been keyboarding long days for 26+ years now (and "mousing" since 1984). When I start to feel a little cramped, I stop for a few minutes. No carpel tunnel injuries.
Likewise, my vision hasn't changed over the same period, for the same reason. Eyes get tired? Stop. Look around (at a distant object). Close them for a minute.
Repetitive stress injuries are self-inflicted wounds. The psychology behind the activity would be more interesting to read about, but I haven't seen any articles on that subject.
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Just like most of you, I've been typing on computers for years. I've never experienced any sort of Carpal Tunnel due to typing. This doesn't mean I'm immune however. Last year I painted the interior of my entire house and suffered severe wrist pain and numbness. My wife is a Physical Therapist and diagnosed me with Carpal Tunnel. For me anyway, computer keyboards are harmless.
The researchers said they did find an association between use of a mouse for more than 20 hours a week and a slightly elevated risk of a possible problem but no statistically significant association with keyboard use.
So mouse usage is a problem, but the keyboard isn't. Guess I should stop playing Battlefield 1942 at work then.M-x show-mappings
C-M-g pain
C-M-G agony
C-M-T paralysis
Look at the inventors of *emacs: Stallman - CTS. Gosling - CTS. Zawinsky - weird. Wing - bald.
In the absence of "emacs peddles", the confirmed emacs user is doomed (dooomed).
(in next week's exciting episode: "Perl and your spermcount - the shocking truth").
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Get up slowly from your chair, gradually taking your eyes off your monitor. Don't worry, it will be fine. Then, walk to the opening of the room that is covered by a door. Then, proceed to your front door. (you know, where you pick up pizza from) Then, slowly *walk outside*. (where the pizza comes from) Proceed to walk down the street and back to your house.
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Typing doesn't cause carpal tunnel, or any other RSI. Improper wrist positioning will do it, though. "Traditional" touch-typing on a QWERTY keyboard (fingers on the home row, ASDF JKL;) crimps up your wrists and is just bloody unnatural.
I've been typing since I was five--I'm twenty-five now. I type at ~100WPM. Because I'm self-taught, I don't use the traditional touch-type method. When I type, my hands are at about a 45 degree angle to the keyboard; if I had a "home row", it would be something like QSDC MKLP. I hit whichever key with whichever finger is closest. My wrists stay straight and uncrimped.
I type multiple hours per day, every day, and I don't suffer fatigue, carpal tunnel, RSI, or any of that other business. My touch-typing coworkers walk around with braces on each wrist, and gingerly ease themselves down in front of split-key ergo keyboards and start wincing when they have to type for more than a few minutes.
Keyboarding doesn't cause RSI. Traditional, wrist-crimping touch-typing causes RSI.
While still in college (10+yrs ago) I developed CTS in both wrists while working on a landscaping crew. I've found it doesn't slow me down at the keyboard now-a-days ... I'm a fulltime programmer
l8r
Try telling this to the people (about 6) I know who have had supportive treatments and/or operations.
It has occured to me that all these people are females in their 40's or 50's, who are generally receptionists, keying in data whilst on the phone.
I've had a mild case & switching to one of the specialist keyboards has helped. I use a Fingerworks TouchStream ST - excellent but it takes some getting used to, is a right old pain if you work in the UK and need to use the £ sign (character map etc etc).
The mouse thing is interesting - I have found that most problems occur in the hand that isn't using the mouse, as it's being lifted of the keyboard whilst mousing.
But I wore the juice
With all due respect to my computer-using brethren, I can entirely understand this and have long suspected the same.
Carpal-Tunnel and RSI were originally diagnosed in women who worked at "sweatshop" textile factories in the early part of the industrial revolution. Sewing is WAY harder on your hands than typing, and so it probably ran rampant in that environment. But there was almost no treatment; women were by and large told to "suck it up" and stop complaining, because it was "just" pain afterall, it's not like they broke anything.
It wasn't until millions of white men started working with keyboards and a VERY SMALL percentage of them got RSI, that it became worthy of national attention. And so now, if you get diagnosed with RSI, you can get disability pay, early retirement, or at least many ergonomic adjustments to facilitate your recovery... IF you're white.
One of the groups who suffer RSI at a much higher rate than computer users: meat packers. Today's meat packing plants run 2-3 times faster, sometimes more, than their historical counterparts, and some cutters have to slice through 60-80 pounds of meat over 100 times an hour. I promise, this will burn out your wrists WAY faster than writing an ActiveX module. But most meat plant workers are Hispanic, and/or non-English speakers. They get $9 an hour, minimal benefits, and, like women in textile factories of old, are usually told to shut up and quit if they don't like it when their wrists are in searing pain.
So, by and large CT/RSI is an affluent white excuse to complain about jobs we aren't "satisfied" with. The people who are truly suffering from these conditions are largely ignored and always have been.
I wasn't commenting on the quality of the study, only on the small inaccuracy (The Netherlands are just south of Denmark)
Now back on topic.
I can only speak for myself off course but I've been using computers for hours on end for over 13 years and have yet to develop even the slightest symptom of stress related pains. (knocking on wood as we speak)
I can't help but think that because keyboarders have been warned so much over the years that maybe they've just learned how to deal with the soreness and stiffness that lead up to carpal tunnel syndrome and so they don't get it as much anymore.
But I can see how keyboarding wouldn't be any worse than other stuff. My sister interprets sign language and she gets pretty sore in the wrists/hands/forearms. I told her she needs to stretch in between sessions.
Error: Success
Wanking jokes aside, are RSI problems specifically associated with touch typing? I know how to type without looking at the keyboard, but I've never managed to get through the initial pain barrier until it becomes natural. I don't find it affects my productivity, except when I post to Slashdot. The problems I need to solve when programming are difficult enough that typing speed isn't a bottleneck.
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You're wrong...
I bet a $ that some guy will come out quoting Ghandi with the perfectly convinient phrase(as always)...;oPPP
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for computer users unless they try everything they can to prevent carpal tunnel. I know personally, my wrist started to get a little sore, sure it might not have been carpel tunnel, but I did things about it. I got a wrist rest, a comfy keyboard, and most importantly, started using a trackball. I know many geeks with carpal tunnel, or early stages of it, who just bear it. I have no sympathy for them. Now if you've tried alternatives, and still end up with it, that sucks, but despite this study, I still say it's an occumpational hazzard.
Could it be that ten-finger-typing as it was invented for typewriters is dangerous? I mean, RSI is caused by repetitive small movements, and 10-finger typing was invented to keep movement small. Combined with the little way keys on a typical keyboard travel compared to keys on a typewriter, I see a possible connection. Now, if you type like me (all fingers in use, travel pattern could be used as random generator for cryptography), movements are far larger. As for the mouse: play a shooter now and then, it works wonders ;-)
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Repetitive Stress Injury is what I have. You get it from doing the same thing for extended periods of time like keyboarding. It has varying symptoms (for me, it's sore knuckles). Carpal Tunnel is a specific malady which may or may not be related to repetitive stress. Some RSI symptoms are very similar to some Carpal Tunnel symptoms.
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I have found a page on computer-related Repetitive Strain Injuries, and how you can prevent them. Then again, you could always just go here and prevent injury while looking stylish!
u kicked my dog ?
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The article mentions that they think mouse use over 20 hours a week can contribute, but they're not sure how much, since they were studying keyboards.
Oy. Between work and gaming at home, I use a mouse 60+ hours a week. Time for an arm massage.
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I've been typing since I was about 6... at age 20 or so I began to experience symptoms of a RSI, tingling fingers, burning pain in the wrist, etc etc. So I took some steps. I got an ergonomic keyboard for home, and those gel pads that supposedly help you keep your wrists up. The tingling got worse and worse over the next few weeks. What seemed to hurt the worst was actually resting my wrist on the pad while typing. So I stopped. I began typing by keeping my hands in the air at all times, keeping the backs of my hands level with my forearms, and letting my fingers fall down to the keyboard rather than reaching out toward it. It looked weird, but it was the only way I could type without wincing.
The pain was gone within 2 weeks. The last the of tingling faded away (except in the pinky of my right hand, which seems to be related to mouse use) a month or so later. As long as I keep up this spidery-looking typing style, my hands don't hurt.
Might be worth a try to those of you experiencing pain.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
I've been typing every day for years and I never got caaaaaaaaaaaaaah
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
People should not blame computers for carpal tunnel and tendonesis because users are the ones who are responsible for an ergonomically correct setup of their desks. I have suffered from a very difficult cases of tendonesis during the past year. Basically, its a result of inflamed tendents that jam your radial nerve; the latter can lead to carpal tunnel. The cause was simple: my desk was not designed for computer use and my keyboard was too high. The solution to the problem was relatively simple: I had to get a new desk. As soon as I got a proper desk, the one with a keyboard tray, the symptoms went away. I have been pain free for almost two months!The other thing that can cause a lot of trouble is the mouse setting. Many people have very high acceleration on their mouse because that way you do not have to move it all around the pad. Turns out that when you use limited writst motions, you tend to do more harm then good. My doctor suggested me to have slower acceleration on my mouse, because when I moved the whole hand, as opposed to just the wrist, it put less stress on the tendents. I changed the setting on my mouse and the results were amazing: my right wrist was feeling much better. I did have to get a larger mouse pad, but that was a low price compared to the price that I paid for my splints. Finally, if you're really concerned about your setup and don't know how to imporove it, I would suggest a visit to an occupantional therapist or a professional organizer. It may cost you some money, but save you from pain.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I can certainly count on that around here...) but I thought it was pretty widely accepted that the Dvorak keyboard being faster or better is a myth.
Alright, a quick Google reveals that this is not commonly accepted. The defense is pretty shaky thought ("the Navy wouldn't do that.")
Anyways, repetitive movements are what cause the (quetionable) RSI condition, and I don't see how changing the keyboard layout would help, short of something more radical like one of those Logitech/MS 'natural' keyboards... and I don't believe Dvorak is inherently any faster than Qwerty; when comparing two people who know both very well, the typing speeds are probably the same.
You'd do much better to lower your keyboard to take the strain off your wrists. Most people keep their keyboards too high.
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An unbiased medical study was recently completed which included blood tests, double-blind placebo-controlled user tests, heart monitors and urine samples, among other techniques. The study was led by Dr. Robert Wilkes and his assistant Dr. Li Huang, both of whom have a strong background in computer software. The details have not yet been made available to the public, however Drs. Wilkes and Huang have asked that the public be provided with a summary of their findings as soon as possible.
This study was conducted over a period of two years, and the results will be published shortly in a major medical journal. The subjects for the study were 235 computer users and programmers, of varying skill levels, selected at random from major cities in the U.S., and carefully monitored on a periodic basis for software-related stress, illness, injury and other ailments. They also performed psychological evaluations to determine the effect of various software brands on the users' mental health.
Below is a brief summary of the results of their findings.
Users of Microsoft Windows, Office and Internet Explorer have a significantly lower incidence of stomach ulcers, colonic gas, redness of the eyes, and stress-related high blood pressure than their Unix & Linux counterparts -- particularly the users of Solarus, Red Hat, NOME, KDE and Netscape, among others. It was believed that the ocular redness was related to the high percentage of marijuana abusers in the Linux community, and urinalysis confirmed this to be the case. Further study and psychoanalysis showed that the stress and ulceration (found in the Unix & Linux users) were primarily caused by the following factors:
The Unix & Linux users also had a greater incidence of carpal-tunnel syndrome, due to the greater necessity of typing at the command line. Examination of the wrist muscles in this group of users found numerous cases of inflammation and irreparable injury caused by their incessant command-line usage, whereas the majority of Microsoft users, who primarily use the mouse and seldom type, had healthy wrist muscles.
The Microsoft users exhibited tranquility, good mental and physical health, and balanced emotional well-being. They tend to spend more time at the gym, visit family and friends more often, and are more outgoing and social. Dr. Huang found that this is due to the fact that their operating system doesn't require them to spend long hours studying Mann pages in order to perform simple maintenance tasks. Their primary reasons for feeling secure were as follows:
When I first joined the Society for Risk Analysis, I was warned to watch out for industry-funded research, since it often failed the straight-face test. ("Can you honestly say that with a straight face?") Knowing quite a few people with carpal tunnel syndrome, I have some difficulty believing this report. Who funded the research?
Personally, I've been using QWERTY keyboards since manual-typewriter days of about 1970. I don't claim to be a super-fast typist (maybe 40wpm), but I do think that one's ATTITUDE toward key-pounding is more important than the actual key-pounding. For example, Isaac Asimov claimed to type 90wpm, and in order to churn out 300+ books across maybe 50 years, you can bet he spent most of it typing -- and he claimed to actually enjoy all that key-pounding. As for myself, for 30-odd years I've generally typed up stuff I wanted to type (mostly computer programs since 1980). I suspect that most people with carpal tunnel have spent years doing work they'd rather not be doing. Their subconscious systems are causing their hands to fail, to give them an excuse to do some other work. But since it's subconscious, they don't realize it -- and the one-track subconscious mind certainly doesn't think about how they'll probably need their hands for that other work....
RSI is basically tendinitis. There are a million causes for it and it is hard to track down. If you get it, you have to spend a good deal of time tracking down exactly where the cause is.
Both are awful to have. But you can't appreciate the pain until you get it. It is disabling...try to get through your day without hands. Driving, eating, washing...all the basic necessities hurt like hell.
Computer use is certainly a good aggravator, but you can get it from a variety of ways. It is very much a black science when you go to the doctor. Some people have the most awful ergonomics but suffer nothing, while people with perfect ergonomics get it.
This asdf jkl; thing really cramps my style, to put it punnily. Since I was a wee lad, I have been typing in my own style, without any major trouble. A few times along the line I have tried to type in the traditional way, and since I mentally know where the keys are by now, can adjust well enough to type that way at a modest rate. I find, though, that my hands become cramped very quickly then, especially on my Happy Hacking keyboard, but even on my large IBM Model M.
I have seen enough coworkers walking around with wrist braces bearing real enough grimaces to take the problem of wrist pain seriously, and don't think they were making it up. So I have experimented with "ergonomic" keyboards, including the Microsoft Natural. While it is comfortable to "touch type" on the Natural, it is even more comfortable to type my way. I believe it is because the way I type, my hands can always fall back to a relaxed position, elbows wherever they need to be, rather than the uncomfortable T-Rex arms I have when using the home row.
These researchers conceded that mousing might be at fault, and I have found that the best thing I have done for wrist and shoulder comfort was to get a Happy Hacking and a small trackball. The sole reason being that getting rid of the numeric keyboard put the mousing device a good deal closer to my hand.
I use a computer about 80 hours a week, which
:-)
is a lot I know. And a few months ago I got a pain in my left wrist, so I stopped and actualy took some sick leave.
But even after a week it still was painfull to type, so I tried to find out why and I located the problem to using the ctrl key, which made my hand strain (especialy the ctrl-b and ctrl-f combinations).
The solution was rather simple, I remamped my ctrl key to the caps-lock key (old keyboards actualy had the ctrl key there). And I disabled the old ctrl key so that I would unlearn to use it.
The next day and ever since I'm typing happely again. Except, I get confused when I have to type on some one elses workstation
BTW I already had the caps-lock disabled anyway, because I mostly use vi and it is rather anoying to see your lines joined instead of moving downwards, when you accidentaly have activated the caps-lock.
I've noticed that most people I've known who have these problems use low sensitivity settings for their mice, and often move their whole arm and wrist .
Everyone else I know, however, uses extremely high sensitivity and accelleration settings. (I tweaked the reg keys in Windows to get it as high as I wanted.) I grip the mouse lightly with my fingers, and only they move. My wrist, my arm: both remain stationary. The mouse itself moves no more than a half-inch in any direction no matter what I'm doing (and at 1600px no less).
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that these problems are avoidable, and they're caused by poor practices more than anything else.
In the infinite wisdom of the Polish Doctor from the old joke, "Stop doing that!"
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I had to switch to a trackball because a mouse and its clicks ruined two of my fingers.
;) Seriously though Europeans tend not to use the computer as much as North Americans.... I know I have lived in Europe for the past ten years.
To minimize any further injury I do not play video games or other repetitive type programs.
But these days if I write quite a bit (am a professional technical author) I can get it after about two or three weeks of solid writing.
If the study looked at Europeans, of course it would make sense. Europeans actually have to work at the computer to get any type of injury!
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if its not a significant risk, then why did I get nearly debilitating pain in my wrists when I coded all day long with a standard keyboard, but it went away as soon as I switched to an M$ natural keyboard? I'd never had such pain before, and since I've switched, I haven't had it return. I'd say that this pain was "caused" by the use of a lousy keyboard for long periods - but maybe I'm deluding myself.
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It's not a goddam troll, it's a true relevant fact about the incidence of CTI. The fact that it doesn't specially favor the
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Wow.. I describe my typing style to friends exactly the way you describe yours. I didn't think anyone else in the world typed this way ^_^
;^)
I use computers a good 10 hours a day (work for IBM, play at home, work from home, etc..), and yet I've never had one whit of a problem with my wrists/arms/fingers/hands.
We need to spread the word
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With forty hour weeks fast disappearing in Europe in favor of thirty-five hour weeks, not to mention one month vacations and lots of holidays, it is no surprise that typing is not considered harmful.
Anyone working in the US software industry has seen enough colleages in pain to know that there is some connection out there!
A long time ago in a land far, far away, I used to be a forest worker... you know, a lumberjack. I know people who *really* got carpel tunnel from swinging axes all day removing bush and I personally got carpel tunnel trimming trees (which involves hoisting a 30lb running chainsaw completely above my head) and brush. I *know* what real carpel tunnel feels like as your muscles and tendons rub the mylar insulation away from critical nevers that control your hand and arms. It feels like you just got hit with 600volts. There's a reason that chainsaw carrying forest wokers wear steel toed boots, heavy gloves, eye protection and kevlar chapps.... because it sucks when you bleed to death in the woods because carpel tunnel caused you to drop your chainsaw while it's running at full tilt with the throttle lock on.
Next time I hear about a programmer getting a worker's comp. settlement because of carpel tunnel, I think I'll stop by their house and strap them to a running 36" chainsaw for 8 hours. Unless carpel tunnel causes your to fall out of your fancy aeron chair in sudden, shocking pain, then you don't have carpel tunnel... what you have is a work ethic problem combined with an ineptitude for figuring out how to use voice recognition software.
I wonder if this is one of those cancer-in-rats things. Feed a rat some insane dosage of something and surprise surprise, that rat gets cancer. Then somebody finally does a study with normal exposure (e.g. typing MAYBE 10k-20k characters per diem) and finds that it doesn't hurt you.
But what about those of use who use keyboards a LOT -- and use cramped, uncomfortable keyboards like those on laptops and palmtops a LOT. I mean, I am typing pretty much nonstop for about 16 hours a day. I have huge hands (with a size 12 ring finger) -- and sometimes, they just hurt. The 500k+ impacts per day on this click tactile keyboard can't be doing me any good. Am I the cancer rat? Can I safely ignore this stupid warning label engraved in my otherwise stylish black dell keyboard? Or can I expect the ligaments in my index finger to just tear one day, like a linebacker's ACL? Can you come back from such an injury? CAN I DROP MY LLOYDS' POLICY?!?
Hey freaks: now you're ju
This article confirms what a few of my friends and I have been saying for a while. We all are very active computer users (>10h/day usually, using computers for at least 15 years), and we all only suffer from pain in the wrist when we allow our stress levels to rise to intolerable heights or when we're doing something we really dislike.
From what I've seen in other people everybody who had severe wrist/arm/shoulder complaints that they were relating to their computer work was either:
- Working under a lot of stress and/or time pressure for prolonged periods.
or:
- Not happy with their work or their work situation.
I think that computer use puts you in a certain heightened risk group for RSI/carpal tunnel but in my opinion you only "get" RSI or carpal tunnel when you are under a lot of stress or generally not in a very relaxed/happy mental state.
I find that when I voice this opinion in the real world, people tend to be very offended by it... so just for the record, this is not a troll.
It's HOW you do it.
I've been typing for fun and profit for about 23 years; I'm 41 now and haven't had any problems yet (*knock on wood*).
Of course, I learned proper wrist positioning at the start - that is, you hold your wrists as straight as possible and let your fingers dangle down to the keys. Keeping the wrists bent, as some people do, is bad, even with a so-called wrist rest. Try keeping one of your legs bent all day and see if you don't feel it.
I've also noticed many typists have a habit of "banging" the keys forcefully when they type, as if they're angry. That's like a jogger wearing cheap shoes and running on concrete. Every time your fingers slam those keys, you're putting unnecessary stress on your finger, hand and wrist joints. The days of the old manual typewriters are over -- easy does it. You don't need to apply much pressure to get the job done.
And, as someone else said, take a break if you start to feel any strain. Those wrist braces and oddball keyboards aren't necessary, imo. Just use common sense and you're good.
It seems to me that a lot of people complaining about RSI are in crap shape to begin with. Obviously, if you rarely stretch your body and use it in an atheletic capacity, (or if you are an athelete, but you don't properly stretch) it will start catching up to you. In my experience, everyone should stretch as much as one full hour per day, and they should begin with an even more intense regimen to establish good baseline flexibility. It is *amazing* how many aches and pains are due to stiff muscles in your back and legs. For the record, I've never had any RSI, and I've been using computers for an average of 6+ hours a day for twenty years. When I see someone complaining about RSI (which most people in their mid-thirties eventually do in my office), I view them as equivalent to lard-ass, McDonald's eaters that complain about having back pain. Hello?! Do something about your *real* problem (being inflexible (or fat)) before you get some surgery on your hand.
I find that double clicks and having to go down to the lower left corner to start a program can be hard on your "mouse" wrist. I use the old "olvwm" and find it to be the most ergonomic for me. The worst one ever was Windows 3.1.
- Typing more than 10 hours per day without significant breaks every 1-2 hours.
- Typing very repetitive, and/or difficult sequences for hours at a time (think Ctrl-Meta-Backspace-LeftElbow-Delete... in some applications).
- pressure on wrists while typing (if you rest your wrists on the desk while typing, you need to break that habit!)
From my own personal experience, here's what you need to do if you start to get warning signs (e.g. tingling wrists, fingers / pain in the elbow / numbness)- Take a break. Really, it helps a lot. And if you have a foozeball, air hockey or ping pong table THAT IS NOT A BREAK (do it, just don't count it as a break). Breaks should last 10-15 minutes and you should try to relax your wrists and arms.
- Watch your posture. This really is key. There are many nerve-related problems that start with hunched shoulders especially. If you experience pain, try taking a break and rotating your shoulders forward and then back, slowly about 5 times each while hanging your arms at your side.
I really hope this helps. Good luck to all you over-achieving hackers who make OSS possible!Yea, yea, bad form replying to self and all that. Notice I didn't use my karma bonus ;^)
Ahem..
-------
A man goes to the doctor.
Man: Doctor, doctor! My arm! Whenever I move it like this -moves arm a certain way-, it hurts! What should I do!?
Doctor: It only hurts when you move it that way?
Man: Yes.
Doctor: Then don't move it that way.
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Microsoft was unable to find an successful alternative technology for traditional keyboards, and since they are mortally against the use of Dvorak (which is evil and impractical), an article on MSNBC.com reports that a Danish study has found that computer use is not a significant risk factor for carpal tunnel syndrome.
;-)
That's not to say that there isn't people there with wrist pain, from various sources, but the reification in this case is terribly misleading. There is simply no such sickness, no matter how many pages of nonsense have been written about it. That's it. You are far more likely to develop different aches from stress and general unhappiness than from any use of mouse and keyboard.
If you think that simple negation without proof is not enough, I'll put the burden of proof on the people that affirm that it exists. Check for yourself the evidence, flimsy is too "firm" a workd for it. Usually are those who affirm that something exists the ones that have to prove its existence (with some exceptions, see WMD, Irak).
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
According to the (U.S.) National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a 2001 study conducted by the Mayo Clinic also found that heavy computer use â" up to seven hours a day â" did not increase the userâ(TM)s risk of developing the injury. /. crowd.
7 hours a day? So this obviously isn't directed at the 18-20 hour a day
Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
I have this theory, totally unsupported by any study and supported only by my own personal experiences, that proper typing is one of the big causes of carpal tunnel / repetitive stress injuries.
Think about it- "proper" typing is based around the concept of minimizing your hand/wrist/arm motion. With a limited range of movement, you're doing the same little movements over and over again.
Myself, I'm a pretty fast typist, but I use sort of a modified hunt-and-peck method. I use about three fingers on each hand and I can basically hunt-and-peck AND touch type. Scary. But anyway, my hands are constantly roaming all over the keyboard like a pianist, almost... I actually feel like this really PREVENTS stress injuries, since I've got a wide range of motion going on.
This is in addition to other, proper ergonomic measures such as arm rests on the chair, wrist rest in fron of the keyboard, etc... of course.
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Most people don't know how to properly "apply pressure" to their wrists. Having played in countless marathon piano concerts and competitions in my youth, I suppose my training has precluded me from having any wrist-related problems. This is simply due to the fact that pianists know all about "lifting their wrists" during long passages of fingerwork to reduce strain. I suppose I subconsciously do the same when typing away on a keyboard.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
I work on a computer at least 10 hours a day almost every day and I've never had problems except one time I went on a two-week Vacation without a computer. Within a week my wrists started hurting. A couple days after returning home and using my computer I was fine.
THE FINDING was based on a survey of nearly 7,000 workers... Computer use âoedoes not pose a severe occupational hazard for developing (the) symptoms,â the authors concluded.
The article doesn't state what was on the survey but I have a suspicion that there is no distinction between a computer user and a person that is mainly a typists. I've been a programmer for many years and although I would be considered a heavy computer user, I would not be a heavy keyboard user. I type parts of the program, think, type some more, take a break, etc. I'm not like a key data entry person. That person would type non-stop for hours. I say that either the study is flawed and/or the article is too short on details.
--- I'm Green Hornet's sidekick not Inspector Clouseau's!
I think it's just an excuse for people to feel sorry about you.
Now let me explain that first line before some nitwit reads between the lines.
I have seen a lot of people with Tunnel carpal, in fact most of them did not get it from using a computer.
don't most people have adjustable chairs? proper height and seat adjustment.
If it hurts stop doing it for a while. Take a break. Get one of those annoying animated computer programs to remind you to take a rest.
People were using typewriters for 50 years.
Yeah I know if you had a pain back then the perscribed answer was take an asprin.
I think looking at a brite sheet of paper for hours on end and punching keys is more annoying than a computer screen with a minimal feeback keyboard.
I bet most if not all people with Tunnel Carpal don't even work out. Doritos,Coke and Beer dont help either.
Oh by the way there is a pill on the market that gives you a six pack stomach and 22 inch biceps.
Ok, maybe not carpal tunnel, but other repetetive stress injuries are very much a risk. I don't need a study to tell me that. My own arm/wrist problems coincided with the writing of my Master's thesis. When I took a week-long break from typing, the problem went away.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
That damned little puck-mouse that came with the Mac G3s. I used one for almost 2 years, and because it didn't support my palm correctly, it screwed up my wrist. I know that shortly after they came out, you could buy a cover that gave wrist support, but my previous employer wouldn't buy one, so my wrist has problems.
Of course, now I use trackballs almost exclusively, so it doesn't matter as much. Optical trackballs are SO nice!
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
I've spent over thirty years on keyboards and never had or seen any such thing. At the same thing I can say that I've seen some people susceptible to all sorts of crap.
The same people apparently, for some reason, feel they cannot accomplish things well enough without having some sort of handicap to explain whatever real or imagined deficiency away. Which goes hand in hand with 80% of mans illnesses being psychosomatic.
I had the worst RSI in both arms, shoulders and back pains as well. It all started at once after years of 14h a day on the computer. I tried acupuncture, physiotherapy, geek gloves of many types and more.
/.) I felt a relief, yet the situation was quite static, no serious improvement. What really helped was sports. Try swimming 2-3 times a week, this lets you put more pressure on the muscles then on the tendons and the spine. Having too much tension on the spine can reflect pain in various places in the body, even a pain that is similar to tendon inflammation.
Using my new touchpad (synaptics is better for linux, mine isn't) and the smart-gloves from imakproducts.com (after reading about them in
So... here's the prescription
* Sit straight
* Less hours
* Touchpad
* Smart Gloves
* Ergonomic keyboard
* Sports
* Increase room temp.
* Go for a break often, never continue working with pain
* Sue your insurance
* Eat stuff that is good for the liver (less alcohol then). Liver is the source of energy for the tendons.
*
6+ hours a day? I probably wouldn't have any problems if I only worked 6 hours a day. Why don't you try putting in 10 hours of mouse intensive CAD/schematic entry, and then I'll be more inclined to listen to you talk out your lazy ass.
The study mentions what I have personally felt for a while... With that numeric keypad tagged onto the keyboard, the mouse ends up being very far away... So I at one point started,sliding my keyboard left (I'm right handed) and found that while I started typing mostly with my left hand, keeping my right on the mouse I started getting cramps in my left so I had to move the keyboard back... but now I have to reach so much farther for my mouse, which will only be bad for my right hand. Why do we still have those numeric key pads anyways? The keyboard is a great input device but numeric keypad, cursor keys, and could be redesigned so as to bring the mouse closer to where your hands are when you are typing
I suspect that left handers (use the mouse with their left hand) have far less trouble with their mouse hand, than those who use it with their right. What they should do is move the numeric keypad to the left side for righties and viceversa for lefties. That way you could use your left hand for cursors, numerics and your right hand will be 3-4X closer to the mouse. Errr.. patent pending on this :P
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
Its not computer use specifically thats the problem, its improper posture and position. This has been known since shortly after the problem was recognized.
I've used computers since I got my commodore 64 a little more than 15 years ago. Never had a problem, until this year.
This year, I sliced open one of my fingers bad. The bandage I was wearing changed my typing position, and within the 12 or so days I had the bandages on, my wrists started hurting and my fingers tingled. The bandage and wrist pain is gone now, but my fingers still do tingle on occasion.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Some thoughts about the study...
9 /22/2963)./ 22/2963. Also, if you speak with any of the 2% of the population who has sustained an injury from using a keyboard, they will certainly feel better to know that the injury they have is an invention of their mind...
That study is available online at JAMA (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/28
Unfortunately, the way it was reported, the study really lends itself to mis-use. I work for a really unique tech company that has invented Anti-Injury software that helps people avoid these injuries. Anti-Injury software protects the computer user while Anti-Virus protects the computer. In my job here, I've heard lots of testimonials from people who swear that they have lost their symptoms from using our software (www.magnitude.com). I know a number 'experts' on the subject matter and they all seem to agree that there are several problems with the researchers' methodology in the study. They say, from reading the study, that the researchers did not follow individuals, but blasted surveys to trade union members at a one-year interval. About 1300 fewer people responded on the second survey. They surely missed any people who dropped out of work because they got injured! When you understand it, they only polled survivors. Also, they only looked for Carpal Tunnel, which is very strange since the most common injury is tendinitis. Even after these serious flaws, they found injury connection with the mouse, which will piss off computer manufacturers, except that they then ignored their own mouse findings and issued an overall statement that there is no association with computer use. Go figure? You have to wonder who funded this study... http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289
Production line job, 9 hours a day.
...now that's a different matter.
After work I used to play guitar until it started hurting.
So I played Counter-Strike for a bit. Not as painful as guitar, which was better.
If you're coding 15 hours a day I still doubt that it would be enough to get the extreme symtoms that all these reports and warning stickers on keyboards talk of.
Your whist and hands may ache like hell but it's nothing compared with random shoot pain up your arm when driving.
Now your back
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My girlfriend is a registered massage therapist and often fixes me. I can tell you that as a user who is mousing/typing eight hours a day, my forearms (especially the mousing right arm) are not healthy. Instead of the supple, flexible muscle that is supposed to be there, when my gf works on it it's like just under the skin there are lumps of chewing gum with crunchy pieces in them.
Thanks to her help i'm getting better, however, and can offer this advice:
- find the working position that is optimal for muscle relaxation. I have two desks put together in an "L" shape with an armless chair, so i can rest my elbows up at the level of the keyboard. What kills your muscles is having them flexed (even gently) for a long period of time.
- stretch every 30-60 minutes. I do these three forearm stretches and find them very effective:
1. Hold your arm straight out. Bend your hand forward at the wrist, pulling it with your other hand until you feel a gentle stretch. Hold it for at least 30 seconds (it takes at least this long for muscle fibers to get the hint and release.
2. do the same thing bending your hand backwards.
3. this one is more complicated but is really the money stretch: hold your arm straight out in front of you, make a fist with your hand and hold it tight. Rotate your arm to that the thumb-side of your fist is facing outward. Now grab the fist with your other hand and pull it down and outwards, simultaneously bending the wrist and rotating the arm further. If done properly you should feel a nice stretch all through your forearm. Be gentle: it's more important to hold it longer than to push it harder.
If you're a Canadian living in Ontario or BC, you can go see a Registered Massage Therapist - they do wonders, and can give you advice on stretching and posture. Also Active Release Therapy (or ART,) which is provided by certain RMT's and Chiropractors, is pure gold for more serious problems. I don't know what regulatory bodies exist in the states, but i know that in Canada's unregulated provinces (everywhere but BC and Ontario) a lot of massage workers are either foofie-lala new age aromatherapy types or borderline sex industry workers, as opposed to genuine health care providers - so be careful.
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
Through some Alexander technique and structural integration work (i.e., rolfing), I'm finally better.
Whereas my regular doctor blamed computer usage and recommended I take off a few months from work, my PT believes this my symptoms were caused by poor posture over a lifetime - shoulders drooping forward, neck dropping forward. I believe the PT more than my doctor. (I have since changed doctors.)
The researchers said they did find an association between use of a mouse for more than 20 hours a week and a slightly elevated risk of a possible problem but no statistically significant association with keyboard use.
This means that they could see an association between use of a mouse for more than 20 hours a week and CTS, which where more than what could be just a coincident in the statistic. AND they could see an association between keyboard use and and CTS, but this was not significant enough to rule out statistical anomalies.
It seems like it is the article that make the conclusion of computers not causing CTS. There is quite a difference between the subtitle "Computer use not a risk factor in carpal tunnel syndrome" and "Computer use âoedoes not pose a severe occupational hazard for developing (the) symptoms,â the authors concluded"
If I ever meet you in person, I'm going to punch you in the nose!
...racist asshole.
From reading the posts it sounds like if you
use the right keyboard, the right pressure,
take breaks, have the right posture, etc then you'll be ok.
All those preconditions sounds like there's a
lot of risk to me. Rock climbing is safe if
you do X, Y, Z. But if you don't, you are
screwed.
I am a firm believer that there is a mind-body connection when it comes to chronis pain. Whether that pain is in your back, shoulders, or in your wrists. I recommend that anyone suffering from constant pain look into Dr. Sarno's books on TMS. It worked like a charm for me... Back Pain and Tension Myositis
Use Python
Enough is enough, why are so many people using RH? It is amazing that there are so many people bought into pure marketing and Microsoft like tactics. I have seen a dozen reports that show the SuSE enterprise is beeter than RH and the desktop version is way better.
I keep a pair of those Chinese "health balls" on my desk and pick them up every once in a while for a few minutes. Seems to help relax my hands and arms.
but in this case I think causality is more likely than common-cause.
maybe their is some sort of genetic predisposition to both RSI and coding, but I find that hard to swallow.
Just because you as an individual had a certain outcome does not mean it will work for everyone. (The same goes for my post earlier.) I think there's high emotions around this stuff and the societal need to connect and broadcast what we all went through.
Each person is different, each set of symptoms is different, and these injuries and symptoms are subtle. Is it stress? diet? RSI from typing or computer games? My friend gave me the best advice: go to many different people in different modalities, take what you can as advice or information from each. You have to become your own expert. Just don't broadcast your results as the One True Answer for others.
I developed repetitive stress disorder/carpel tunnel disorder while working on my prelims during my PhD training. It came entirely from having to practically live in front of a computer manipulating a mouse hour after hour, day after day. The problem continues today so that I have to be careful about how I use my computer and for how long.
My wife has also developed similar problems, only her's are more severe than mine...but for her is was not just the mouse/computer interface - it was a combination of that plus her work with a particular microscope. She no longer uses the microscope (different work now) but the computer/mouse causes her problems and makes it worse.
I have colleagues who suffer the same problems due entirely to their computer/mouse work. Claiming that computers/mouses are not a significant problem wrt RSD/CTS is a load of hooey.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
guitar nipple.
Bet you never heard of those medical conditions.
Musicians have it bad too.
Frankly, right now I suspect video games can be a pretty big culprit.
I think the PS2 dual shock, with their weird, analog-but-shouldn't-be buttons, are particularly bad, since the tactile feedback is so poor.
Endless games of Tetris Attack / Pokemon Puzzle League prolly don't help though, and that's all Nintendo...
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I had grown up typing, and playing music. My instruments of choice were clarinet and french horn.
When I wasn't playing music, I could almost definitely be found on a keyboard (minus some other activities).
After playing VERY frequently I started to feel pain my senior year in high school in my wrists/fingers/hands. These would be extremely sharp pains that would stop me from using my hands for at least a few minutes before starting up again.
When I got to college I was on my computer ALL the time (CS Major who picked up mud'ing, we're talking 14 hours on the keyboard a day).
I was using a standard Compaq keyboard and mouse.
My sophomore year in college I finally purchased ergonomic equipment (Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro . . mouse / keyboard). Within the first few weeks the pain was diminished and almost completely gone within a month or two.
Now I only use ergonomic keyboards and mice (the slight tilt on the logitech mouse really helped my mousing arm from feeling constantly rotated).
Everything seems to be better (and I still type for a good 12 hours a day).
Well, in my experience typing at the kb didn't cause me any RSI.
But i did develop bilateral flexor tendonitis from working in a door factory 7 years ago.
Even though i used to type like mad on the C= when i was a kid (with no problems) i will say that excessive typing *today* can certainly inflame my existing condition.
Like many others have mentioned, i will have to say that the article is either "selective" or complete crap. As a sufferer of tendonitis myself, i've studied and have a pretty good understanding of the machanics of the disease- what causes it, what really takes place in the soft tissues and what it feels like when you're over-doing it.
Typing at a computer most certainly *can* cause RSI, but there are other factors too. Some people are more genetically prone to it, there's things like nutrition, general health, emotional health, and even variances from person to person on the path and size of nerves, tendons and muscles traversing from the elbow to the fingertips.
There's a LOT to consider.
And it's also no joke. I've had many non-sufferers look down on me with the "suck it up, you wimp" type attitude. I really wish i were making a bigger deal out of it than it is. The type of pain in question isn't particularly the worst part, folks. It's the unpleasant nerve feelings, or numbness, or clumsiness, and lack of strength that really makes it hard to deal with.
I mean, think about it, you use your hands for EVERYTHING.
And finally, i will tell anyone that is being told by thier doctor they need surgery to consider other treatments first. Nowadays doctors just want to hack you up and call it good. But there are many exercises, nutritional supplements, massage therapies and various other things that can be beneficial.
What doctors *don't* tell you about surgery is that there's a 20% chance that the nerves going to your thumb might take a different path through your palm than most people. There's no way for them to tell this until it's too late- they'll slice that nerve and that hand will become useless for the rest of your life.
They also don't tell you that you're GUARANTEED to lose 25%-45% of the strength in that hand forever, and that you *may* lose up to 80%. My mom had surgery for CTS. It greatly reduced the pain, but i'm constantly opening jars and bottles for her, and pouring liquids out of any pan or pitcher greater than 1 gallon.
They also won't tell you that even after surgery the condition can come right back.
Surgery is a trade-off. It takes away the pain, but you lose a whole lot more.
Doctor: Okay, you're ugly too.
There must have been no programers in the study, as the burning in my wrist tells me otherwise...
I set up two jobs in my crontab, one on the half hour called displaymessage that creates the message (using xmessage), the other running every five minutes after the half hour finding all processes with xmessage and killing it.
However, then I started getting email messages from crontab telling me my processes had been killed. (Thanks.) The only trick I found that worked without sending extra mail was wrapping the displaymessage program in a perl script:
I'm not a UNIX guru, so I'd love to hear what others have done to set up a regular reminder without requiring extra mouse clicks.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the slowing of the median nerve in the carpal tunnel due to pressure on the nerve, is not a Repetitive Strain Injury. For clarity of discussion, these are the symptoms of CTS (as opposed to a tendonitis or other soft-tissue irritation):
. fcgi?c md=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8198771&dopt=Abstr actf cgi?c md=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9048313&dopt=Abstr act
* Numbness or pain in your hand, forearm, or wrist that awakens you at night.
* Occasional tingling, numbness, "pins-and-needles" sensation, or pain. The feeling is similar to your hand falling asleep.
* Numbness or pain that worsens while using your hand or wrist, especially when gripping an object with your hand or bending (flexing) your wrist.
* Occasional aching pain in your forearm between your elbow and wrist.
Here are a couple medical journal articles from several years ago, non-Danish in origin, that detail some of the risk factors of CTS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.
Briefly, in case you're not on a network with access to the full text of those articles, analysis of over 5000 patients showed no correlation between type of employment and CTS. Risk factors included thyroid disease, obesity, and a "square" shape to the wrist. Simply put, conditions that contribute to elevated levels of intra-articular fluid, and skeletal structure that elevates the pressures of those fluids on the median nerve, will contribute to the occurrence of CTS.
After I was diagnosed with CTS over ten years ago, I spent about a month healing and learning Dvorak. I've never looked back since and never regretted the switch. By the end of the month, I was typing faster that I was ever able to type before, and I could type for longer periods without discomfort. Too bad Dvorak never caught on. My touch-typing speed today is outrageous with Dvorak.
We need Macintosh power. I *am* Macintosh power!
In either case, it's a relatively useless study. There are so many factors in computer use that to say "It's not the keyboard" or "It is the mouse" is rather useless. For example, my typing style hasn't changed much in the 20 some-odd years that I've been typing. I sit as if I'm in a recliner. I rest my elbows on the armrests of whatever chair I'm in. I rest my wrists on the edge of the desk. About the only thing that has changed is that I no longer have to look at the keyboard in order to type the correct key. Do I have symptoms of CTS? No. There are a lot of other things that impact the wrists that I do. [Yeah yeah, reply with your favorite masturbatory comments you trolls]. I do martial arts wrist stretches. I lift weights. I do pushups (yeah, that stretches the wrists). If I didn't exercise my wrists would I have CTS? Dunno. Do I care? Nope. I'm pretty happy at my 40hr/wk job in which I spend more than half that time typing. I also enjoy playing computer games that involve a lot of keyboard use. IMO and FME, this kind of study is useless no matter what.
To those that are wondering what kind of organization funds such a study: A health insurance agency. i.e. If you can 'rule out' a behavior as not causing a particular symptom, then if someone develops the symptom and claims it was caused by doing their job (and thus entitling them to disability), you can point to the study and say "Nope. Must've been something else. This study says that behavior doesn't cause it. No disability for you."
80%?
:)
I thought it was 90%, you know, Sturgeon's Law...
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
I am very suspicious of these so-called independent studies in terms of things where big money is being thrown around. I've just seen this scenario play out too many times before - and since I know many long time computer users who have RSI, including myself, it makes me doubly suspicious that it is just a coincidence that our wrists hurt, just like it's a coincidence that so many smokers die of lung cancer.
From the article:
Ah seven hours at a keyboard is "heavy computer use". Lucky none of us ever has to work seven hours a day at a keyboard! If you look over the past century or two, they said cigarette smoking was not harmful (and in front of Congress a few years ago, all the heads of tobacco companies swore under oath that they didn't believe smoking cigarettes was harmful). They said going down into the mines without safety equipment was not harmful, and that the miners all getting "black lung" was just a coincidence. And so on and so forth - when money's at stake, a full scale propaganda and legal war will be waged to show that there is no problem. Only when we have organizations like the Programmers Guild, IEEE, CWA and whatnot funding their own studies will we really start knowing what the real deal on RSI is. And also remember RSI is not just computer people, manufacturers deal with another form of RSI and they lobby, get bogus studies and so forth for that as well. Don't believe the hype!
-1 TROLL AND -1 OVERRATED WHY? This guy was just making a joke, get over it people. I thought it was freaking hilarious, plus got a great pr0n link while I was at it!
Well, I'm not sure, but my 9 months of CTS might contradict this finding.
Let me just start off by saying that you wouldn't want to wish CTS on your worst enemy. It's not a pleasant experience.
That out of the way, I can say, without a doubt, that typing was the cause of my CTS.
I was hacking up an Ericsson PABX controller for many many hours for many many days. I wasn't taking breaks, I wasn't stretching, and I was using a mouse and a normal keyboard.
At first my hands went numb on a Friday. I thought it was strange, but my wrists were fine and feeling was restored after the weekend.
About 3 weeks later, I suddenly got this huge amount of pain in my right wrist. The next day my whole right hand was paralised, and I took 2 weeks off work.
I returned to work after having trained Dragon NaturallySpeaking to program C with Emacs. After about a week, my voice was gone, and my throat hurt like hell. So I gave up on that.
I got an MS Natural Keyboard. It helped. I got a trackball and used my left hand instead of my right hand. That helped.
I also discovered an amazing program called Workrave that forced me to take breaks. I highly recommend that people use this program. Prevention is a good thing.
So anyway, it's been 9 months. I've been to physiotherapists, chiropractors, hand therapists, hand surgeons, etc. None have really fixed the problem. But it's "managable" now.
Anyway, I'm probably looking at some form of surgery in the next few months as I seem to be stuck in a "rut", having good wrist days and bad wrist days.
The moral of my story: if you're typing a lot, and you're not taking breaks, then you're in for an aweful experience. Do some stretches and stuff as well. Seems to help. CTS isn't fun. Very depressing at times.
Oh yeah, I'm 20. I've been programming for maybe 6 years. So you don't necessarily have to be old to get a form of RSI.
Oh, another good resource is the Typing Injury FAQ.
The best medicine for trolls like you a one (and only one) reasoned response:
If I say that I have worked 6+ hours per day *averaged* over twenty years (including weekends, holidays, etc.), it neither follows that:
(a) I have worked only 6 hours per day; nor
(b) I am a lard ass.
Think about it. Six PLUS. AVERAGE. And less time sitting at your desk means LESS chance of being a fat-ass.
"To minimize reaching and to promote comfortable shoulder and arm postures, consider the following:
Place your keyboard and mouse or trackball at the same height; these should be at about elbow level. Your upper arms should fall relaxed at your sides. When typing, center your keyboard in front of you with your mouse or trackball located close to it. Place frequently used items comfortably within arm's reach.
To promote proper wrist and finger postures, consider the following:
Keep your wrists straight while typing and while using a mouse or trackball. Avoid bending your wrists up, down, or to the sides. Use the keyboard legs if they help you maintain a comfortable and straight wrist position. Type with your hands and wrists floating above the keyboard, so that you can use your whole arm to reach for distant keys instead of stretching your fingers."
Microsoft doesn't care. But they have information, and it's in their interest to keep you at your computer as much as possible.
I got a copy of Bonnie Pruden's book, Pain Erasure and started doing trigger point therapy on myself.
That's it. I got a thing called a Theracane, which let's you de-trig your own back (and legs and hips, for that matter), and I use it. It turns out that, for me, the real source of the pain and tingling is buried deep in my back, but I also apply the method to my arms and shoulders. I follow Bonnie's instructions, and over time the pain goes away.
I realize many people's problems are not this simple to fix. If this helps anybody, I'm thrilled. If you try it and think it's bullshit, I'm sorry. Please don't flame me for trying to help.
I disagree. I've used Dvorak for years, and I would never go back to QWERTY. It's an urban legend that Dvorak is not faster, the reason being is that no studies on Dvorak VS. QWERTY have been done for decades so there really isn't a large body of evidence to discount either one. The only study I have heard of is that Navy study which sounds like it was done at least 50 years ago.
From personal experience, and other people I taught Dvorak too, they usually see a speed improvement of at least 10WPM, usually 30wpm. However, the comfortability of typing is a much greater effect. You can type the same speed as in qwerty, without moving your fingers around as much.
I have not had full blown Carpel Tunnel but I have had pain in my left wrist on and off and it is caused by holding dishes while washing them. I am right handed and I figued all the mouse movement would do it, but m left had is the one in pain. I think it only happens to the "typist" that type 80wpm, 8 hours/day.
Dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn!!!
They probably didn't study the right people. The only computer people I have met who get it are hardcore programmers like me. Most of us after years of push projects that take monthss of 16 hour days of endless typing notice we have sore hands and wrists. I have alleviated them with hourly rests, dvorak layout, a natural keyboard, and better posture. If my job wasn't the cause then why am I and all the other hardcore guys I know so familiar with wrist and hand pains?
It's not one of us, it's almost all 60 of engineers in my company who have been in the industry 5 or more years. A few of the young'ns even got their 1st pains and asked me if my keyboard, funny chair, and thumb ball mouse helped.
Evil Man
It sounds like you're basically positioning your hands like on a split keyboard, only you're using a regular keyboard to do it. ASDF on a split keyboard is about at the same angle as QSDC on a standard keyboard.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
5% risk, huh? Wow, that sure is small! Oh wait, they don't cite the baseline incidence, so who knows if its all that small. 5% could be a 300% greater risk for all we know.
No signifiant relationship between more than 20 hours of use of a keyboard? Great news, for me: I work 60 hours a week with a keyboard! Oh wait, they neglected to analyze the subset of individuals like me. Talk about a low powered measure and analysis. Did they even look at the distribution? I bet there's a slight skew.
Well I'm glad the numbness in my palm isn't caused by my excessive computer use. Then what the hell is causing it? I sit on my butt all day and sleep on my back all night! What else could it be?
Seriously, until every scientist on Earth is forced to pass a course on psychometrics, this kind of research gets us nowhere. Statistics is a garbage in, garbage out practice.
For me, seven hours is a light day.
C'mon, we're talking at least 14 hours baby!
I also switched to left handed mousing to cut down on the pain. It didn't go totally away until I switched to Linux! I am now pain free. I think all the extra clicks and rebooting because of Windows was the problem.
been doing this for ten yrs, never had a problem with keyboard use. mouse use however is a different story. so a couple of years ago i moved my mouse pad in front of me, that is between me and my keyboard, so when i use it my arm is at a right angle, just as if i were leaning on my desk with arms crossed doing nothing at all. its worked well for me and feels much more natural.
The International Association of Mouse and Keyboard Manufacturers.
You conclude that because your breaks give you time to recover, avoiding RSI should be a matter of common sense for everyone--not so fast pal. Sometimes conditions can change and what was once adequate rest is no longer adequate. When conditions change quickly you have no previous experience to draw upon, and you can do damage even while behaving prudently.
My RSI (a tendinitis, not carpal tunnel) hit me out of the blue when I was 26, and I've never been the same since. Perhaps an infection rendered my tendon sheaths fragile for a few days, or for some reason my collagen production decreased temporarily. But whatever the cause, I was past the point of no return in no time flat. The change was so abrupt that it may not have been possible to avoid at all.
I particulary enjoyed the comment about the "foofie-lala new age aromatherapy".
HDGary secures my bank
...surveyed computer users who play UT2003 for hours on end either.
That program is probably xrits. It locks your screen every [configurable interval] to remind you to take a short break, and locks your screen for a longer period every [other configurable interval] to take a longer break. While your screen is locked, it displays hands doing stretching exercises.
:). But some people I know swear by it.
I don't need xwrits; I have ADHD to remind me to take breaks instead
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
I agree with many of the other posters, most of the time my wrists hurt becuase i did some other activity or got stressed out and then kept agrivating the situation by typing on the computer. Usually i take a break for an hour or quit working and go home to sleep (usually happens trying to hit a deadline). I do not, stress out that I've now aquired RSI and my life is ruined. Becuase, I belive that a great percentage of health problems are psychosomatic (the abilities of the placebo pill is abosulte proof of this) and by stessing out over the aquiring of RSI will cause you to clench your writs and agrivate the problem.
An example in daily life is how many times have you picked at a scab til it blead and hurt? There is no benifit to it, your opening yourself up to infection, but in the back of your mind your testing to see if its healed or still hurts. Same goes for wrists, if you think your coming down with RSI your going to test your wrists to see if they hurt, in fact your ignoring how to prevent the pain to check to see if the pain still exists doing the wrong motions.
I do have one example from my old school where a woman destroyed her arms/wrists by using a computer. She did this by updating, by hand, 3500 frames with Anipro (Autodesks 8bit 2D animation program) in the course of 2 days straight (no sleep).
She then got upset because the school did not provide adiquate tables to prevent this from happening and threatened to sue. I suspect there is no way that anyone's wrists/arms in any configuration could have survived those 2 days.
It could have just been the awareness level, but Repetitive Stress Injuries seemed to have arisen with increased obesity in america, which seems to correspond with a lack of activity.
But then again, the typewriter has been around longer than the computer, and there used to be warehouses full of typists that did the jobs that computers automate these days. But RSI only seemed to rise in the computer age, which seems to correspond with the american obesity age.
Hey, I'm just your average shit and piss factory.
Repeat after me, "There is no such thing as RSI". But as I was saying, society has great respect for those who lie about their health and get away with it.
I'm surprised that no one's touched upon this yet, but another aspect of repeated computer usage and leaning on one's elbows can cause Thoratic Outlet Syndrome, which feels like CTS but is quite different.
t /index. html
:)
You can read all about it by going here:
http://www.nismat.org/ptcor/thoracic_outle
I've had CTS for three years, and am still holding out on surgery. I wear wrist braces, ice the medial nerve, and take periodic breaks. I follow all the recommended exercises, and am in good shape (work out four times a week). My age and genetics I guess are catching up to me.
I've come close to problems a few times but have been mostly free of trouble despite doing upwards of 60-80 hours a week on computers since the late 1970s/early 1980s.
Some personal data points
- I touch-type up to ~40-50wpm w/o needing to look at the screen - higher if I'm looking. I took typing on manual typewriters in high school. My key positioning is pretty much the standard, though my "b" fingering prevents me from using ergo keyboards completely (the "b" is always on the "wrong side" for me).
- I don't keep my elbows on the desk (alluded to by other threads).
- I try to listen to and adopt at least some of the corporate ergo training I've had. My current home office doesn't really comply with all that. My current work environment has the wrong monitor height, no adjustable keyboard height and minimal adjustability on knee/leg height, and barely enough room for proper mousing. But I haven't had any problems in the last years. Maybe it's the elbow thing!
- I have sometimes gotten numbness and pain (maybe 3 or 4 times) in 30 years but its been infrequent.
- My doctor who is also a rheumatologist (joint doctor) has always told me in those cases to *never* immobilize a body part with tendonitis (the usual precursor of CTS); reduce swelling and pain with Advil (up to 800-1000mg (4-5 pills) at a time, if necessary) if pain would lead to unconscious immobilization.
- I get massages are a biweekly basis which include deep-tissue on back, shoulders, arms and hands. My masseuse is also a physical therapist so she knows anatomy. These relieve alot of muscle tension you aren't even aware you may have (and, no, there is no "happy ending" involved ;-p).
- At one time I had "computer eyes" and used two sets of glasses. I haven't had problems in >10 years and just use my normal glasses (I'm near-sighted). I do take breaks and walk around every few hours which is supposed to help. In an office environment I use it for coffee (I'm an addict and proud of it!) and socializing. I can still go on 10+ hour streaks "by mistake" when I'm in "the zone".
- I'm now using 20" and 21" monitors on my two main computers. This is partly for visibility (though I don't need reading glasses - not presbytopic yet), but mostly because after using Unix workstations and Macs for years I'm more comfortable with densely busy desktops for lots of multitasking. I've come to expect having dozens of windows open at once since the late 80s.
JGski
The motions of using a keyboard don't cause problems in many people, but the keys and mouse can cause problems similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in some.
It's people who are intolerant to the plastic, and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and "tingely" fingers are but a symptom of that intolerance.
It has little to do with repetive motion at all, but "experts" don't appear to be paying any attention at all to this.
I noticed this happening to me about five or six years ago, and frankly, I didn't believe for a second that I was "contracting" Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from my keyboarding motions.
Why? Because I've had many jobs which "experts" say should cause Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, but I've never had any symptoms of it, until I started using my keyboard and mouse quite a bit more (thanks to the WWW).
I looked for any reason that could be causing my sometimes severe wrist pain, and the only thing that made sense was the plastic keys/mouse.
So I bought a thin pair of cotton gloves and started using them.
Surprise! No more "Carpal Tunnel" pain!
Since this "Eureka" moment, I've shared my findings whih many people whom have "Carpal Tunnel" pain.
The few who do try using cotton gloves, find that their "Carpal Tunnel" pain is GONE.
Make of this info what you will, but I do hope that it will prevent someone from having unnecessary surgery.
If it don't GO... chrome it. ~ Frank Banks
If you're getting pain in your little finger, it may be due to compression further up the arm, so get rid of the armrests. If you have pain in your hands, it may be due to compression near your neck, where the nerves enter the spine.
All the advice I've seen indicates that different things work for different people. If you're experiencing hand/wrist/arm pain, get it checked out, but don't expect there to be a magic cure that works for everybody. What fixed your co-worker's pain may not fix yours.
The orthopaedic surgeon I consulted with told me that actual bona-fide CTS is actually very rare, but the symptoms are more common. If you have true CTS, it will probably be waking you up at night (the fluid in your body redistributes itself when you lie down, increasing the compression and pain). So don't freak out and think you have CTS (like I did) when there may be other factors involved.
Check posture, ensure you've got circulation, and periodically take breaks. Ensure your monitor is at eye level, so your neck is cricked down looking at it (not easy for regular laptop users - get a plug-in monitor if you use a laptop at your desk regularly).
I sort of agree. I have been doing it lots and lots since about age 10. So I've been at it avidly for 19 years now. I had to start because, being dyslexic, it made life so much easier.
Oh, we're talking about typing...
Anyhow, when I was writing a program and typing my thesis, the pain in my wrists and arms was unmistakably typing related. I bought and ergonomic keyboard and it has fixed most of the problems.
BEWARE: The Microsoft Natural Keyboard is a hoax. It bends the wrists the same way as a regular keyboard. The wrist bend is what makes the pain worse.
To ensure less pain:
Tilt your keyboard tray or keyboard away from you to ensure your wrists and lower arms are in a straight line.
Adjust your chair so that your arms are supported while maintaining this straightish line.
Ensure the top 1/3rd of your monitor and your line of sight is about level.
Those things help. There are foot rests and stuff too. I haven't tried them.
TTFN
So, by and large CT/RSI is an affluent white excuse to complain about jobs we aren't "satisfied" with.
Not only is that comment blatantly racist, your entire argument is based upon the false premise that economics is a "zero-sum" system.
sophÂisÂtry
n. pl. sophÂisÂtries
The ability to post on slashdot does not a wise man make.
It's worth pointing out that this study is examining only carpel tunnel, not RSI in general. They don't appear to be saying that using a keyboard and mouse is not a cause of wrist injury, only that it is not a significant cause of a specific kind of injury.
I started typing when I was 8 yrs old, i have no idea how fast i type but everyone around me says its an incredible rate. I type with my own style which can change from time to time as well. I developed a degree of carpel tunnel when working in a cramped cubicle, so bad in fact that i couldnt pull the parking break on my car. occasionally i still get flare ups so i lay most of my arm on the table and set the mouse far back so my wrists arent at a sharp angle. but it can happen to us too man. i used to think those carpel tunnel people were full of shit and trying to milk workers comp until i got it myself.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
It's my ass that's complaining!!!
The Cycle of Violence is to be seen as the invisible hand that maintains the balance of Man and Nature on earth.--M
2) Apparently the Danes don't work the same hours we do. 7 hours a day at the keyboard? Closer to 10 hours a day for most people I used to work with.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Well, duh. Carpel Tunnel Syndrome is not the same as RSI. Repetitive strain injury is the ailment that comes from overuse without adequate rest in between. Those who have RSI may not have carpel tunnel syndrome. I can guarantee you that if you do anything repetitive for 10+ hours a day practically non-stop, 7 days a week, for years upon years without adequate sleep, exercise, and nutrition (y'know, the things geeks don't usually get), you will get RSI regardless if you've started whacking on keyboards when you're 15 or when you're 3. Your body repairs itself only while you're sleeping, and if you can't get enough of that, you're screwed once you reach the point where your body is generating less cells than you use up and you don't change your habits.
Those who use computers for their daily jobs from 9-5 with breaks and meetings and other tasks in between shouldn't have trouble, but then they use computers moderately. This behavior is unlike those in geekdom who are glued to their computers practically 24 hours a day, eat potato chips, drink diet (like that'll help) Coke, and don't exercise.
I don't believe this study for a minute. First off, people's hands are different sizes; while people with smaller hands may feel comfortable on a regular keyboard, people with larger hands can use a split keyboard.
I think the best way to handle this situation is to allow employees to use whatever keyboard/trackball or mouse combo they like - even if they pay for it themselves.
Despite what this study says, using crappy keyboards can give you RSI. And it's not just the keyboard - the lack of a keyboard tray, a poor chair / seating posture, armrests that are missing, etc...
Of course it depends on how much you use the computer - couple hours a day probably won't hurt you even if you are in a worst-case scenario with poor seating, lighting, desks, etc... but any more than that and you could be running a risk.
There are also some genetic factors involved, too. Accessibility is important, so even if 80 or 90 percent of computer users don't get symptoms, those 10 or 20 percent who do should be accomodated so that they don't have to go through expensive surgery.
It's not the disability that I am personally worried about, it's staying off of disability that I am worried about. And people thinking you're wierd when you ask for a ergonomic keyboard and chair, etc...
I would rather work in a position where I didn't have to use a computer at all than use a standard keyboard. Thing is, these types of positions are harder and harder to find these days. And they don't pay as well.
RSI and computers are the next cigarettes. I predict some major class-action lawsuits in the next 25 years or so. How many billions of dollars are poured into R&D of newer and faster CPUs, hard drives, memory, etc... but we are still using what is essentially a $5 or $10 dollar keyboard technology - technology from the late 1800's.
One way would be to have a personal chording keyboard that can be carried everywhere. Get good at using one of those, and it might help. Getting creative, there are many ways around this problem, but the bottom line is that employers should allow employees to bring their own keyboards or other entry devices in to work, better yet, the employer should pay for a good chair (Herman Miller, at least) and a nice desk with a fully articulating keyboard tray. And a new monitior, not some old piece of crap.
Maybe not the keyboard so much, but it's the whole setup: the chair, the desk, the keyboard tray (or not having one available), the monitor, the distance the monitor is from the user, the abliity to adjust the chair and the monitor and the desk and the keyboard tray for users of different sizes, the lighting, the noise level, etc... It all works together. It's in everyone's best interests to make this environment as healthy as possible. Also, with better keyboards, people can type faster. If typing speed is important, keyboard technology is important.
I've had RSI -- missed a semester of college b/c of it, and I have these two simple tips to offer for the long term health of your wrists and hands: 1. Don't rest your wrists on wristpads. You should be sitting so that your forearms are level with the keyboard, perhaps a bit above it, floating so that only your fingesr are touching the keyboard. 2. Make sure that the keyboard itself is flat. Many keyboards have legs to prop them up at an angle -- don't use those, killer. Good luck... Hubbah
...my wrists and eyes didn't start hurting until after I'd read this thread.
I'd like to see a guitarist's nipple. :-)
But seriously, many musicians do suffer badly. My brother, a professional drummer and drum teacher, wears splints for long gigs. Look at the number of professional guitarists out there whose styles have changed because they can't hold up a Les Paul Standard anymore.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I have used Dvorak for about four months now, and although I am not quite up to par on my old QWERTY speed, mainly because the keyboards at school are QWERTY (I have to switch back and forth every day), I can safely say that it is far easier and more comfortable to type with than QWERTY ever was. As was said before, when typing in Dvorak my hands do not move nearly as much as on a QWERTY. It may be interesting to note that the keyboard I am typing on now still has it's keycaps arranged in QWERTY, but is mapped in software to Dvorak. I'm not the only one that uses this computer. I am a total touch-typist: looking at the keys doesn't do me much good.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 Whoops, silly middle mouse button...
This is the biggest pile of pseudoscience, misread anecdotal CRAP I have ever read on slashdot! To be so blatantly silly it MUST be a troll, but still...there's something genuine and honest about it. If it's a troll, I confess myself taken in.
Assuming you're serious, and also assuming that there is a corrolary between the cotton gloves and the lack of pain, then I can think of at least three explanations which are FAR more plausible than a 'plastic reaction.' In fact, I could probably spend all day thinking up reasons for the change, and not come close to anything as silly as a reaction to plastic on your fingertips causing pain in your wrists.
Just keep your self-diagnosis to yourself please, and don't let anyone else be misled.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
From the study it appears that keyboarding does not correlate with CTS; however, mousing has some correlation.
Learn those keyboard shortcuts (CTL-ALT-DEL)!
I've been an active runner since high school and practice Yoga (teach Yoga too) and I have definitely had periods of RSI if not actual CTS. As other readers note, wrist position can make a big difference. Also, just take a break once or twice an hour from marathon sessions (good for the eyes too). Neck, shoulder, and back pains can result from holding the arms up (esp. mousing arm). Solution: develop awareness and relax.
I used to be a pretty hard core Quake, QuakeII, QuakeIII, Blood, etc gamer. I'd play with my co-workers (always during non-working hours...;) until my hands throbbed. Then I went home and had dinner. Then I'd wait for maybe an hour or two and then BAM! hit the gamespy servers for another go at it until 2:00am or when my face hit the keyboard. Now the thought of doing that sends chills up my pained arms, shoulders and neck.
CTS was over-hyped into oblivion, and people w/ other MSDs & RSIs are paying the price. 70% of RSI problems aren't actually CTS, they're usually tendonitis, tendosvitis, or bursitis. I have major tendonitis in my whole right forearm, hand, etc. from computer "overuse." I also have a variable-expression heritable connective tissue disorder related to Marfans & Beals, but I dont know exactly what it is, it would require an expensive genetic test, which makes me tall, causing two risk factors for RSI & MSDs (mechanics & weaker tissue). The doctors can't find any nerve damage and wont run an MRI because it's an HMO and not Worker's Comp, so they make up some excuses (like my keyboard is in the wrong position, heck i use it on my lap) and blame the patient, saying it's psychosomatic (all in my head). So now I've been out of work and school for a year, and I only have a dozen units left, but if my body can't do the job, what's the point? Right now, I'm saying "fuck it," and have resumed using the computer, no matter the cost &&|| pain.
/. as much and write these big comments, my arms wouldnt hurt as much... nawh! Besides, you can also get real CTS and other RSIs from position u sleep in, if you draw your arms/hands into your upper chest "praying-mantis" style, you are at a severe risk for wrists aliments.
In addition, I spend waaay too much time at the computer, on the order of 5-10 hrs/day. I'm seriously consider buying a radical keboard, such as the DataHand ($1k-2k US), and then mapping it to dvorak. I find that mouse work is really hard on your body too, so I bought a trackball, and alternate on both.
Maybe I didnt read
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
yeah right, and all of these cases among office workers is just a big coinicidence, whatever. Who funded the research? sounds like there is a self serving motive here.
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
You've obviously never had wrist problems connected with keyboard use and haven't figured out that other people might not have habits or skeletal structure identical to yours. I barely escaped RSI myself, I took a medical diagnosis of tendonitis (the original was RSI) as a wakeup call and listened to my physical therapist.
I hope you find out that you are full of shit from personal experience, your employer tells you to suck it up and deal and quit if you don't like it, and that when you go to the Labor Board, this study is cited in denying you workers' comp.
Not to say that the industrial situations you describe don't lead to RSI.
I've also seen grocery store clerks with wrist braces several times. They don't seem to be hauling 60 or 80 pounds of anything. Their problems must be imaginary, too, right?
The fix is the same whether in the data processing or the industrial workplace, use ergonomic design, don't push people past their physical limits and where this applies, teach people physical habits that put less stress on the wrists.
I rather suspect the study methodology was intended to generate exactly the "no correlation" results they got by people with a full understanding of the problems involved.
Scientific integrity is something that is bought and sold these days, and the results of a study on a controversial topic can be generally predicted by finding out who paid for it.
Tech Public Policy stuff
You may not feel the pain/strain as your mind is inundated by other, more important datum. Here is a url with simple pictures and descriptions of some integral stretches to prevent RSI and prolong comfort; http://web.mit.edu/atic/www/rsi/RSIMIT/exercise.ht ml.
This is from my own home page:
People who do not have carpal tunnel can get an incredible amount of help out of work with a physical therapist with experience dealing with RSI/CTS supervised by a doctor. Get a medical diagnosis first, preferably involving an electromyogram which can determine definitively whether or not the median nerve is really compressed or not. I had tendinitis a few years ago which was originally diagnosed as CTS, I considered this a wakeup call.
And if you've really screwed the pooch and the doctor is recommending carpal tunnel release surgery, be warned, I've met more than one person who's tried carpal tunnel release... and is not happy with the results, anyone contemplating that procedure should probably check into the balloon release described below first.
"Sunday February 25, 1996 Balloon catheter relieves pressure on median nerve in carpal tunnel"
"A new procedure to alleviate carpal tunnel syndrome uses a balloon catheter to stretch and expand the ligament and relieve pressure on the median nerve in the carpal tunnel of the wrist. This avoids cutting the ligament when conventional therapy is not effective."
"According to a study of 120 patients treated with the new procedure during the past four years, 85 percent had marked clinical improvement in relief of wrist pain and numbness, and 95 percent reported overall satisfaction with the outcome."
American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons web site carpal balloon release info.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Other than the fact that your post is totally off-topic, it is also totally untrue. People who have jobs which are low paying and rough are of course less likely to have any kind of help for this type of injury. It has nothing to do with color. Stop reading your racist propaganda and look out in the real world. If you have lived in Suburbia your whole life you might think that all white people (males in particular) have it made, but I can assure you that is not true. The vast majority of my white male friends have jobs in which they work their ass off for little pay and very few benifites. NONE of my female friends (well, except for my friend's moother) have ever endured such a job, nor have my Asian or black friends, though I do know plenty of mexicans with such jobs. I have had several minimum wage jobs, and the women were treated like queens compared to the men.
If you want to get some exposure to white males you don't fit your stereotype, you can talk to my great-grandfather who got CTS so bad that he had to stop using his right hand and write with his left hand. He was a mail carrier. Even our supposed "white male dominance" government appearently didn't take care of him. "White male excuse" my ass!
If we want to change the whole problem of people getting mistreated at work thing, then we have to educate people in school about their rights as an employee, and improve legislation to ensure that even people with low paying jobs have access to such things as low-cost health care and lawyers. But please don't turn it into a race issue, as much as you would like to.
Some of what you said is true, but the main thrust is that you are racist, sexist, and you would like everyone else to be as well. No thanks.
It's bloody ANNOYING to have a CTS bout, to speak nothing of having it constantly! I've just driven cross-country in a large truck while towing a car, and that seems to have done in my right hand - I have the classic "3-finger-and-thumb tingling" going on right now. While I am an avid computer user, this is the first run-in that I've had with this to any great extent, and I'll tell you this - it sucks. My sympathies to those who live/deal/work with this EVERY DAY continuously. I can hardly sleep now because it's so irritating. :(
Relax, stretch out, and do some healthy physical activity that doesn't have anything to do with work. Don't look at each individual problem without considering you may just need some general daily upkeep.
Someone asked if I had patched against MSBlast; I said yes, I installed Linux.
hes a karma whoring troll, he did a search on google... and pasted it here. Meta mod him to hell!!!
except that windows gui has extremly good support for the keyboard and the only programs that don't work properly without a mouse are crap made by NEWB VB coders.
Try that in KDE or GNOME, its one of the major things keeping me on windows.
There is no god
If you're having pain in both of your hands, then you may well have a cervical problem (neck). It is very common for cervical diskbulges to present as arma/hand pain, since this is where the sensory nerves to the hands and arms exits from the spinal cord.
Go see a doc orthopaedic (hand or spine) or a neurosurg
..........FULL STOP.
I think that bad posture over many years is what causes the damage. I read that a b complex vitamin will help if you want an inexpensive remedy. No one can prove that it works but it is much better than sergery. Cheers, Jake @ plutoid.com
Regards, Jake Johnson http://www.plutoid.com
Note that if you acquired your RSI at work, you're entitled to workman's comp. Don't be suprised, though, if you get a lot of resistance and "gee, didn't this happen at home" or "you don't play sport X do you" types of questions/accusations. My wife acquired RSI at work (she didn't use the computer at home much at all and it happened after a week of heavy working.) Workman's comp helped out quite a bit.
If you have to leave your job you might be able to claim disability.
And if you feel guilt at using workman's comp/disability--remember that to them it's just money, to you it's an injury.
The first was drinking more water. People in general do not drink enough water. This doesn't seem to matter until you reach your 30's. Around age 30 I started having numerous health problems that were "magically solved" by drinking more water.
The second thing I did was buy some gel wrist-rests for all the keyboards I use, and for each location that I might drag my laptop to. These helped immensely, as I spend at least 8 hours a day typing (usually 7 days a week).
The third thing I found was: don't aggravate the pain by trying to "work it out", flexing my wrists back and forth. That only seemed to further inflame it, causing it to take many more days to get better. For this kind of damage, being nice to your wrists (bend them less) is what helps them to heal.
Carpal tunnel pains seem to take many days to heal, so it's hard to figure out what helps and what doesn't. Look for results/changes after 5 days or so, at least.
I played with a coworker's wacky split-keyboard for a while, and hated it - I touch-type extremely fast, but use my own variation on touch-typing that causes me to reach for keys that are on the "other side of the split", causing many typing errors and frustration. I think that *I* should decide which fingers hit which keys, not some generic "standard". :)
For me, there never was any tingling, and it never got bad enough to have to go see a nurse/doctor about it, and now I don't have any wrist issues like that at all - and haven't for 6 months at least.
That's my personal experience anyway. Whaddya know, a happy ending.
Ever notice how the Western Yoga-nuts are insanely self-righteous and also look decidedly unhealthy? I don't consider Western Yoga proper flexibility, as most teachers seem to be hippy-dippy posers that haven't got a clue. You're either one of those teachers, or one of their students.