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US Army Signs $471,000,000 Deal for Microsoft Software
zero_offset writes "According to this article at Yahoo, Microsoft will provide software for 494,000 Army computers during the next six years. At roughly $950 per computer this clearly involves more than just the OS, although the article unfortunately doesn't provide details, and I was unable to find any references to this on the Microsoft website." The great things about this deal: the Army is going through a reseller, when clearly they have the purchasing power to buy direct; and most of the computers they purchase are normal consumer machines which will be purchased with Windows and Office already installed, so the Army will be paying twice for each machine.
US Army Signs $471,000,000 Deal for Microsoft Software
And if the US was a country that didn't pander to corperate intrests, the headline would read,
"US Army Signs $0 Deal for Linux Software"
http://use.perl.org
Just goes to show how powerful lobbyists are. Well at least this levels the playing field a bit on the world military scale ... stop an M1 Abrams with KLEZ
"so the Army will be paying twice for each machine"
/. is slanted. It still irritates me though.
I RTFA and I saw NO reference to anyone paying twice. The article does not state this deal is for the OS and office, so you, Michael, should not assume anyone is paying twice.
I know, I know. NO, I am not new here. Yes, I know
Holy s-, it's Jesus!
From the article:
:)
Charles Di Bona, software analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein, said in a research report that the contract would most likely add $16.6 million per quarter of "high-margin (in the range of 89 percent) revenues and add $0.001 per quarter to EPS."
What products make M$ *that* much profit? Windows and Office of course.
Let's see...if the Army is paying full retail (which I wouldn't doubt):
Microsoft Windows XP Professional: $299
Microsoft Office XP Professional: $449
Microsoft Visio Standard: $199
Total: $947
There's most likely your answer.
(Also, I happen to know that Visio Standard comes on the Army's standard build (a friend of mine worked for TACOM), so that's why picked it
My journal has hot
They aren't a business. They can't afford to code up every little thing when they need it and they need to know that they can depend on somebody else to fix any problems that might come up. It's a variant of the "Who do you sue" problem. Microsoft's stuff is easily usable and ultimately gets the job done, which lets them focus on what's important.
I'd hate to think that our fighting forces are futzing around for weeks on end trying to figure out how to get fonts to anti-alias, let alone getting the whole "enterprise" to work. Windows Server 2003 and Windows XP Professional streamline enterprise activities.
like the Army is paying for Microsoft's fine...
Justice Department: Bad Microsoft.. you must pay $500 million and promise to never do it again.
Defense Deparment: Here Microsoft.. $471 million for you...
Right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing? Or does it?
$471,000,000 dollars? That's like SIXTEEN hammers!
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
you're absolutely insane. If anything, these are to better help smart bombs attack people.
Remember who is currently in office and what his goals seem to be.
It's 1/2 a billion and that's not enough to curtail bombing.
Can we actually assume that the base OS is actually included in the $900+/comp. price? I think it's a little premature to assume so. Something not mentioned though is that this probably covers OS and software upgrades which can be expensive potentially
I wonder if this basically is some sort of site license for all MS products for the Army.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
The deal $970 per seat includes OS, Exchange, SQL, and Office so that's about right.
t military25.html
The article also says the US military seems to think Microsofts security problems were not significant enough to stop the deal.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/128059_msf
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
My friend did some contract work for the Army a few months back. They needed a pair of IBM RS/6000 P-series 660s, fully loaded, attached to a pair of FastT700 fibrechannel arrays. Close to $1M worth of hardware, by my rough estimates, having purchased similar hardware in the past.
This was for a workgroup of 30 people.
Government contracts are the best.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Insert "Military Intelligence" joke here.
Before you all start griping, just remember... This is almost 1/2 a trillion dollars that won't be spent on "smart" bombs. Although I am not for the us military in general, I am all about it wasting it's money. Each $ wasted could be a life saved.
Was this a positive post for our government wasting money?
What are you thinking man? Don't end your post here, elaborate.
Why on earth can you concieve of this being a good thing? Because there will be fewer smart bombs purchased?
This just in, If we want bombs, we buy bombs.
We are in a republican controlled government. All that changes is the size of the debt.
http://use.perl.org
What...are you FUCKING kidding? This is basically worst-case scenario when it comes to security. Anybody remember M$ offering their source to China? Hello, McFly?
The U.S. government is investing aggressively in technology as part of its war on terror and focus on national security.
Of course they are....everything comes back to 9/11, right?!
The six-year deal, which also involved a software reseller called Softmart that will get a commission
Somebody...find out which congressman/senator's wife/retired general has a major stake in Softmart. There's got to be collusion SOMEWHERE. This move is too boneheaded and expensive for this not to be an insider deal.
although....
Anybody know if any of these costs include all the immense testing, or paperwork, or the percentage that gets siphoned off for black projects?
I'm not being snide about that last one...a percentage of all projects goes into black projects..that's how they fund the Skunkworks, after all.
Microsoft is not a minority owner company. I'm curious to know if the "reseller" is listed as one.
If it is, that's why the Army *HAD* to use a reseller.
I was thinking, "Wow! Bill finally sold!"
And then, "Hmmm. They'll probably be enforcing those EULAs with an SKS muzzle in your mouth, now."
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
Pretty sad that our military wastes extreme amounts of money on computer systems that they know they will have to upgrade shortly (more $$$, no jobs), will keep them open to the threat of widespread viruses (more $$$, no new jobs), and contains code that they can not see (no new jobs). This is fucking sad, man.
This is almost 1/2 a trillion dollars that won't be spent on "smart" bombs.
1/2 a billion dollars, right?
Anyway, wouldn't you rather the military use expensive "smart" bombs than cheap "dumb" ones? It's not like a lack of funding is going to stop them from entering into conflicts in the first place.
" Keith Hodson, a Microsoft spokesman, said the contract could help the Army reduce its costs and "validates the Army's belief in our security model.""
I guess the Iraqi information minister's initials being M.S. isn't a coincidence then - he appears to work for them
I have numerous work and personal machines (6 or so) all running XP Pro and I cannot think of the last time any one of them crashed (back through w2k).
Most of my friends' issues aren't from the major vendors like Dell but rather self-built PC's that utilize a mishmash of buggy motherboards and the like.
RedHat and the other major distributions seem to release major revisions far more frequently than does Microsoft. To get any meaningful support on those systems you would have to actually buy the distribution or hire someone to help if you aren't capable. Free isn't that easy.
In the end I would take Microsoft anyday... and if anything goes severely wrong, there is always someone to hold accountable. You and I might not have the leverage, but the US military backed by a half-billion dollar contract sure will. Where is that accountablility with free software?
While the cost of microsoft products, retail or OEM is substantially higher than Open Source alternatives, there is a consideration that is not addressed by that cost: Training.
Most of the kids going into the army have some experience with computers: computers running Windows. The more familiar new recruits are with Army technology the less training will be required and the less time/resources/money need to be invested in getting newly enlisted GIs up to speed. The military is like a business in many ways. They write memos, reports, letters, make spreadsheets and send email. The most efficient way of getting all personel on the same page technologically is to deploy the "lowest common denominator". That is to say, software that is good enough and easy enough to use.
If you are concerned with job creation, Microsoft is the wrong company to give money to. First of all, Microsoft needs much fewer employees than other industries to generate each $1m in revenue. In addition, since these are probably sales of existing software, there will be almost no job creation from those sales at all. Furthermore, Microsoft has a lot of its jobs overseas, so much of Microsoft's already measly job creation doesn't even take place in the US.
although the article unfortunately doesn't provide details
My suspicion is that there are enough details left out that the author and editor could print an alarmist article.
Further suspicion is that there are MANY MORE aspects of this contract tha have been conveniently, or ignorantly, omitted.
Little things, like perhaps Smartsoft has the better GSA rate for MS software than MS itself does? Maybe Smartsoft underbid their supplier and is providing professional services in addition to the software? Who knows, since no link to the contract award is provided and no refrence to what sort of purchase this "story" is referring, or avoiding to refer.
You guys see this all the time with the $2B/aircraft stories, that conveniently leave out all of the special tools and other pricy items that come along with each Squadron delivered with only the "journalist" obscuring the real cost of the airplane since those costs are published buy the GAO with regularity. How is this any different or even news?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Accountable? Have you read the EULA?
We don't need no stinking computers! All of our equipment is 60's vintage with add-on computers. So when the ECM hits, they can just revert to manual operation.
---
It's still OUR 400 million dollars. We could have gotten the same thing for much much less, if a FS/OSS solution had been used.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Insert "Insert Joke" Joke here.
sin(6cos(r)+5A)
$953/computer / 6 years = $158 per year.
If this includes SQL, etc, all future releases, its likely a good deal as far as MS licensing costs go.
They want all their recruits to train on the best computer simulation available to the government today.
Hmmm... cut the military budget in half to get a national health care system? That would be a trick, since we already spend more on medicaid and medicare than we spend on the military.
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
Just wait until while in the middle of cordinating an attack, they recieve a windows messanger popup for increased penis size.
Priceless!
http://use.perl.org
But a recent West Wing episode pops into my head.
Anyway, I've looked at military spending differently since that episode...
Oh, and Microsoft sucks... blah, blah, blah...
Davak
"B S O D in the Army~~~"
Sorry, someone had to. (yeah, the syllables don't match up...)
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
Yeah, I am beginning to tire of it as well. Microsoft owns this computing paradigm like it or not. Nothing lasts forever, someday they will fall back, so lets just use our Linux boxes, keep MS at bay and either a) shut the fuck up or b) work on bringing on the next computing paradigm, whatever it may be.
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
"what, you think they really paid $700 for a hammer?"--judd hirsh, independence day.
Personally I would rather see the money spent on smart bombs that minimalize civilian casualties. While I'm no lover of war, when it's necessary, I personally think killing less innocent people is good. So them spending huge amounts of money on insecure microsoft software seems like a terrible thing to me. Sure if we don't have any weapons we don't go to war, but we do need to defend ourselves. And that's half a billion dollars that isn't going into research giving real technical people jobs. Instead, it's going to Microsoft who will not hire new people because of this, but will most likely use half a billion dollars to destroy other smaller companies that get in it's way. So instead of creating jobs in research and development we are giving loads of money to a known abusive monopoly holder who will most likely use it to put good people out of work. I think the smart bombs have a smaller casualty rate personally.
Yeah, the new one is "Who do you want to go to war with today?"
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
Keith Hodson, a Microsoft spokesman, said the contract could help the Army reduce its costs and "validates the Army's belief in our security model."
I can't wait to see this. I'm not sure if the Army will be significant enough pressure to make m$ security better. In fact, they're a small piece in the bigger pie.
While this is probably cheaper than the defense departments $300 toilet seat vendors (hey, they probably at least had a backup toilet seat tho), it doesn't make too much sense to me. I'm reminded of the Navy vessel that crashed running NT.
Given that XP is still having issues with updates and such, I'm wondering what the Army was thinking. But then again, that is often the case..
Go back to college and take Econ 101 again.
Instead, the DoD is at the mercy of some large corporation, obligated to spend 1/2 billion in a few years to patch all the bugs.
What a waste.
<a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>
I guess there's an Ada# around the corner, now that M$ has a foot in the army. C# meets Schwarzkopf... surely a macho language!
About one computer per soldier, since total personnel in 4/2002 was 481,266. Given the typical astronomical support to combat troop ratio, that's not huge at all.
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
Lay off the toilet seats. They weren't that expensive, it's an overhead (read cost accounting) issue. Imagine a project, Weapon X, with $1BN in R&D expense required to design the weapon, but where actually producing the full run of Weapon X only costs $100MM (not an unusual situation in military procurement). Then imagine that, as part of that $100MM, there's a wrench needed to tighten the bolts on Weapon X. Since only 10 of these wrenches will ever be produced (they're oddly shaped to fit into the chassis of Weapon X, and the bolt is a strange size), so the cost of the mold and casting is $500 - it's a $50 wrench - pricy, but not ridiculous. For the project as a whole, though, remember you have to allocate that $1BN in R&D cost. From a cost accounting point of view, every dollar spent on the wrench gets $10 in R&D allocation. Voila, a $550 wrench.
...reboot per day. At least the rifles aren't running Windows yet.
Why, you are silly. Indirectly you pay for this with your taxes. You are supporting a huge corporation that truly has no need of government handouts.
Congratulations.
In related news, the US has dropped millions of computers off to terrorist hot-spots.
Military Analyists estimate Bin Laden will be bankrupted by the additional fees within 3 years.
puts ("Python r0cks\n");
Well, that's great. (1) Government requires purchased OS's to adhere to new set of standards called POSIX. (2) UNIX vendors jump through hoops for a decade or more to develop and meet the standards. (3) Government buys MS instead.
I wonder if this may be somehow tied to an audit. I remember reading articles a couple year ago regarding Microsoft auditing companies and strong-arming them to buy more licenses to cover the accountability.
For 494,000 computers, I doubt the Army was able to keep track of every single on of its licenses. This may be a convenient way for both sides to look good. Army "consolidates" its IT purchasing, and MS gets a large government press release.
For that kind of money, they could have bought a new G5!
We all do remember what happened to the USS Yorktown in 1998, yes?
I just made a post on you paying for this with your taxes, and now realise that the biggest, by far the biggest iraony in this "deal" is that Microsoft gets tax breaks like there's no tomorrow.
/. about the bias here, because those very same people fail to see the irony in paying for this deal indirectly with their taxes, and this to a company that hasn't exactly been paying huge dollops of taxes on it's yearly multi billion income.
I read with humour, the angry pro MS crowd who regularly vent their anger here on
If your country ever does collapse, it will be because you have a government that thinks it can generate money from thin air, very much like the horde of dotbomb failures did.
Yeah, it works so well that the glorious US army is attacking one weak country on the verge of self implosion after the other instead of going after someone who can defend himself, like, for example, uh, North Korea?
I suggest you read this Wired article to see how well it works. They are using Microsoft Chat on the battlefield, for crying out loud! Yes, the one with the comic characters, where the staff seargant looks like a big breasted bimbo. Nothing inspired a feeling of technical superiority like that, if you ask me.
At least the important systems run Linux.
Insert "Recursive Joke" Joke Here
It doesn't strike me as surprising that some random guy on Slashdot would post that smoking "wouldn't be allowed on a submarine," despite the fact that this study in 1996 was intended to estimate the effects of secondhand smoke on submarine crews, and this Navy News update from 1993 notes that sub captains were tasked with designating smoking areas for their crews while on board.
Depressing, but not surprising.
Jebus Crisis. Just make the ashtray out of metal, then it won't break at all. And what are they doing smoking in a sub anyway, can you say very tight environment with a limited supply of air?
Not that this invalidates your basic premise, that many military-grade goods are specially made to military spec and therefore justifiably cost more. However, I have to wonder how any Microsoft product meets the kind of quality standards set for even a simple ashtray.
I do not have a signature
Anything that reduces the US Military's finances, stability and general flexibility/readiness without actually spilling blood can only be good.
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
Any person can request a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) on this bid. You can see what companies bid, how much each bid, as well as all the proposal documentation. Its all in public domain. Now the trick is to find the contract number or the contracting officer so that you can contact the proper person.
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln
According to my extensive reading of Tom Clancy non-fiction (no, really... I'm too poor to buy the Jane's reference manuals), submarine ventilation / air purification systems are specifically designed to handle cigarrette smoke. Remember that most sub designs predate concerns about secondhand smoke and so forth.
Also, see this instruction from the Secretary of the Navy dated August 2002.
I quote:
Hurrah for
Interesting that West Wing used (plagiarized is too strong) a bit from the VP Albert Gore, Jr. "reintventing government" tour of the early 1990's. When on "Late Night with David Letterman" his props were a big glass gov't standard ashtray, a big nail, a hammer and a block of wood.
He then went on bust the ashtray and explain how the pieces would be evaluated to decide if those types of ashtrays would be purchased by and for the feds.
I am pretty sure that the Letterman show was not the only stop on the tour.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Before you get on the Army for not buying Linux or doing something Free, consider this.
In my unit (B Co. 1/509th Abn.) we have I think 7 systems. They all run Windows 2000 and are connected to a network, through which we can access printers, other systems, and the Internet. You would be *amazed* at how many people come in a day with problems printing, getting the Internet to work, or just getting a certain program to run. You want infantrymen who at least have some familiarty with office and windows to try learning bash or mutt? It's all we can do to get all the systems functioning properly, with everyone remembering their passwords and able to get there damned email and print. If the Army mandated Linux, there would be a 4 week training program, after which chaos would ensue because 90% of the people still didn't understand it.
Your talking about people who have trouble checking email. Asking infantrymen to run linux as part of their work would be ludicrous at this point.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
I'm a soldier in Army Reserve and my unit is an administrative unit, which means that we make heavy use of our computers. The computers are mainly used for typing memos, making simple spreadsheets, and downloading new forms and publications off of the Internet. I do not see why a Linux or BSD machines running Open Office, Mozilla, and xPDF (or Reader for UNIX) cannot replace the current Windows machines. I have talked to soldiers that came from other reserve and active duty units and they also use their computers for similar purposes. Only software that we use that is not on Linux is FormFlow, which is one of the crapiest software I've used (yes, even worse than Windows ME). It is a simple software, so it shouldn't cost much to program something like that for non-Windows platform.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Softmart
The Army will be rolling out these computers just like N. M. C. I.. The OS of choice will undoubtedly be Windows 2000 SP1 just as it is in N.M.C.I. Also, Office Pro 2000 SR-1a is standard on all machines amongst a host of other apps. Visio is a part of the standard suite of apps. The contract is being fulfilled by EDS. The $950.00 price tag is not across the board. That is just the baseline. Premiums will be paid for faster machines, laptops, and Science & Technology seats.
The transition has been rough so far as users have found that they cannot abandon their legacy seats in every case. Thus, you see a lot of dual-desktop situations. I hope the Army takes into account the lessons learned from the Navy and Marine Corps' efforts.
I'm really impressed. Microsoft must really have it on the ball. An organization known to pay $800 for a hammer chose Microsoft as their software vendor.
So what if you have to call a tow truck every once in a while..
Speak before you think
Yeah, only those of us who have jobs and don't live in our parents' basement use Windows.
I think the R&D has pretty much been covered for toilet seats by now.
-j
Is there anyone on Slashdot that hangs onto Windows for anything other than games?
Work.
http://use.perl.org
Imagine if they'd spent that amount of money on a space shuttle replacement, or a manned^H^H^H^H^H^Hpersonned mission to Mars.
Stick Men
They are site licensing the server products, almost the entire product line. Sharepoint, SQL Server, etc etc etc ad nauseaum.
Indeed, I feel ill. What exactly does all that shit provide that free software does not? Vendor lock-in? Great.
The details aren't being disclosed because MS doesn't want their other customers getting pissed at the ball breaking that the Army gave them
Nuts. I've never heard of a non-clasified public purchase with a NDA. It's my half a billion dollars, I want the details. Only crooks who sell crap have to hide their details. You would think they would be happy to give anyone buying half a million computers a similar deal.
There's no excuse for buing into more Microshit right now. Computer hardware has been more than adequate for general purpose desktop computing for the last six years. If the software those computers came with is no longer up to the task, I suggest looking at alternate software. There are a few other good American companies that could use this kind of shot in the arm but would provide a much better product:
We can be sure that Dell, Gateway, etc would be happy to work with any of the above software firms for this contract.
The fact of the matter is that the US Army took a half a million computer order and got themseves treated like some dinky midsized company with a thousand desktops. Next thing you know, they will be on the three year upgrade cycle. They did it because they were told to do it that way or they were incompetent. Either way, it's un-fucking-forgivable. They have a whole, ummm, Army of technically qualified people!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I'd bet that a huge majority of Slashdot readers use Windows as their primary OS. Both at home and work. I've tried a few different Linux distros at home, but keep coming back to Windows because I know how to do things in it and it's just easier. If time wasn't an issue I'd try harder to kick the habit. I do use Mozilla because I'm hooked on tabbed browsing and mouse gestures so give me a little credit.
Is there anyone on Slashdot that hangs onto Windows for anything other than games?
A better question is why do people on Slashdot still hang onto IE? Windows I can understand, because many of us are at work when we are posting, but why IE? I would guess that 95% of the posters on here are using IE, and that doesn't even take into account the lurkers and people who only view the front page.
--Drunk as in Beer
How about this one?
You could also use VNC or similar.
This comment is guaranteed*
*not guaranteed
No one has yet mentioned security, but it will be a big problem. Microsoft software is about as secure as an unlocked door. The enemy, and terroists will exploit this. Here is further proof that there is no such thing as military intelligence.
How ya like dat?
hehe... I like that comment. Windows is actually a fairly good OS. While everyone complains about it, it does work, most of the time. Too bad "most of the time" isn't good enough for "most people". Then again, if switching OS's on your computer were as easy as switching cell phone providers, Microsoft would have gone bankrupt a very long time ago. :-)
-Joshua
...$471,000,000...494,000 Army computers...
A FAQ I found at www.navy.mil says there are 480,000 active-duty soldiers in the U.S. Army.
I know there is a bureaucracy beyond just the soldiers, but one of sufficient size to require more computers than there are solidiers??? Also, this deal appears to be just for the Army--not other DoD agencies that do a lot of stuff for the Army.
From the Yahoo! article: Keith Hodson, a Microsoft spokesman, said the contract could help the Army reduce its costs and "validates the Army's belief in our security model."
This isn't exactly something to validate a citizen's belief in the Army's security model!
Additionally: "We look at the Army deal as incremental evidence that Microsoft continues to outperform as a business and that the longer-term, subscription style business model is indeed gaining significant traction," Di Bona wrote in his report.
As final proof of its global power, Microsoft is now taxing the U.S. Government!
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Reading various comments here, I thought Iâ(TM)d stick my nose in. [background â" former USAF Windows programmer]
Wait a minute... they just agreed to purchase half a billion dollars worth of software and you're saying they can't afford to hire people to oversee the customization and support they might need with something like Linux?
Fools
Waste of tax dollars
Use a FOSS solution!
Linux would be way better
Simple corporate welfare
Shame on the military for using Windows in the first place!
BSOD
Crashing missiles
blah de blah de blah
Hereâ(TM)s a shocker. Windows may be more cost effective for a huge organization that already is using Windows. Let me repeat thatâ¦
Windows may be more cost effective.
How so? They already use it. Switching to Linux for the desktop would take several years, and be considerably more than $0.5B. With the possibility of it going very, very wrong. Not all Win -> Linux conversions go smoothly.
Why so long and costly? There are literally thousands of custom apps, large and small, that the Army runs on. Already written and in use. Everything from creating ID cards to allocating training munitions to various units. Currently, they run on Windows. What do you think they use now? Pencil and paper?All of these would have to be rewritten in some way. 2, 3, 5 10 years ago when all this stuff was being written, guess what? A viable Linux solution was but a wet dream. You had but 2 choices, Apple or Windows, for regular desktop deployment.
Now...of course you cannot roll out a whole new desktop environment all across the Army on the same day. There will be considerable overlap. So you also have to ensure interoperability between old and new as you roll out. The Army cannot stop business for the several years while this is going on.
You also have to ensure that all of your current hardware is supported. Are there Linux print drivers for the ID card printers? How about the digital camera for that?
Can we build a Linux solution to interface with the hospital patient records db? Sure...but we already have a Windows solution that works, and works well.
Can Civil Engineering find a Linux CAD solution, equivalent to AutoCAD, to design the plumbing and electrics for a new dormitory? Haven't seen one.
What about Public Affairs and the imaging shop? Are there Linux drivers for the digital Nikons they use? Oh..we have to have those written. But there are already native Win drivers for those...supported from the factory.
Laptops. Will Linux work on all the various laptops (with their custom mouse and video drivers) the Army deploys? Maybe...maybe not. But Windows already does. They might well have to buy a whole fleet of different laptops, if Linux can't be made to run effectively on the ones they have.
Linux may well be more stable, secure, and crash (slightly) less. But this is basically desktop use. So what! This is regular desktop use. It just doesnâ(TM)t matter if it is not the most absolute secure system on the planet. These systems are not facing the outside. And not running life critical apps. They don't steer missiles with Win2K.
Take all that into account (and this is but the merest tip of the iceberg) and staying with Windows might well be cheaper than trying to switch.
Reminds me of a story I once heard (don't know if it's true or not.)
During the early NASA days, they had a hard time developing a pen that would write in zero gravity, but after spending a rather large sum of money, they made one.
When faced with the same delema, the Soviet space program used a pencil.
Seriously, did Redhat or any of the other big Linux players bid on this contract (IBM?)?
If not, then shame on them. Maybe they didn't know the deal was going down, but often these RFP's are public information.
That money would have gone a long, long ways towards making Linux the best OS out there. It's almost there now and just about any current distro would work fine, but that money could've been used to quickly fix any minor problems still plaguing Linux (eg. get rid of all text based config tools). As others have mentioned, they could've hired on the best Linux developers available to make everything 100% perfect. I don't think that little extra development would've taken any extra time out of their current schedule and would create jobs for many people along with increasing security, decreasing M$'s monopoly, and bettering open-source as a whole.
As well...
The ratio of people to cake is too big
write you representivities at how appalled you are at this. tell them your concerns that at a time of finincial hards ships, they are pay a 1/2 a billion dollars for something that could be done for at least half that.
write your news papers. When the public finds out that the Army is wasting this kind of money when there children are have school days cut, and programs slashed from undernieth them. Write every newspaper you can think of, large and small. Make this an issue.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I fully agree, most of my users have serious problems just operating windows, let alone doing work on it. If you threw Linux at them, they would just stop using the computer and go back to doing everything on paper.
another thing is that while the liscense costs for all the software that they're getting isn't horrible price-gouging, we don't fucking need it.
I'm in an officer school, the only function for having a database is for keeping track of student information. I already have an access database in place with an oracle database slowly replacing it. I don't need or want SQL and NONE of my users need it, either. we don't need to buy a shit load of liscenses at slightly above prices, what we need is to break that chunk of cash up and give it to the units so that their Sysadmins and IMOs can determine what the unit needs.
I'll give you a little story as an example of how trying to add too many pieces to the puzzle WILL fuck up a supply chain:
earlier this year, I needed 14 computers. I sat down and figured out the paperwork bullshit and forms for it (I'm actually Infantry and have zero training for admin stuff). I priced out how much it would cost for what we needed and found several retailers that we could go through. I sent that stuff up to higher and after about 2 months of that paperwork going through commitee and bueracracy, I got 14 computers that were totally different from what I requested, cost more, lacked software liscenses and hardware that my users needed for them to do their jobs.
anyone higher than brigade levels has no fucking clue what a battalion needs, and even then they don't really know.
this whole package for stuff we don't need irritates me.
The World's Worst Webcomic!
Work.
Wife.
My original statement still stands. I don't care about those people. But just to throw some interesting stuff your way:
Fool.com
Look at it this way, the high income earners are the ones who invest in the economy. These are the people that buy stocks and start companies. The ones that give jobs to others. Spurring the economy does not happen by giving someone $300 whereby they go buy a new television.
You also state that they take it from the workers who are creating wealth. You don't have a right to work. You are free to go elsewhere and find a job if you don't like the current one. You aren't being forced at gunpoint to work there. Oh wait, white-collar work isn't as admirable as blue-collar work? Despite the fact that the white-collar managers and CEO's are the ones who EMPLOY the workers.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
That's an old story. The problem with pencils is that they're made of graphite, which is a wonderful conductor of electricity, among other problems.
m
See http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.ht
for the full story
Pretty story. Not true.
Christ, not everything is a corporate-pandering conspiracy theory.
Or is that what they want us to beileve.
http://use.perl.org
Amen to that. When I was an Infantry officer I encountered the same thing. I figured, "Hey, in the *real* world of Corporate America, things must be more efficient. After all, since everyone is trying to save or make money, nobody will put up with this sort of wasteful bullshit. There are no Mad Minutes in Corporate America. There's no federal accounting that forces you to spend it or loose it.
Then I started working in Corporate America, and found out that I was dead-wrong. Nobody literally gets on the firing line to blow off ammo before the fiscal year ends, but I've seen so many instances of ass-covering, ego driven "strategies" and just complete incompetence out here in the private sector. In fact, I've come to realize that while the Army's procurement system does suck ass through a straw, in many ways the overall efficiency of the Army (at least at the unit level) is far greater than that of most corporations.
The military periodically gets nailed for million-dollar hammer episodes and the like, but believe me, staggering incompetence is not the exclusive domain of Uncle Sam.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Dell is perfectly happy to ship a business OS-less PC's if the business tells them they have a volume license deal with Microsoft. Just because the website makes you buy OS/Software for one PC doesn't mean a volume order for 1000's of PCs would work the same.
First, as many other people have pointed out, these machines aren't being used in "life or death" situations, they're for normal desktop stuff. Did it ever occur to any of you that perhaps Windows does indeed provide a better desktop experience than your average Linux distro? Heresy, I know. Nothing could possibly be better than Linux. And BTW, for those of you repeating those tired "BSOD" jokes: have you used a version of Windows past 98 or what? Win2K and XP are pretty damn stable. A BSOD on either of them is about as likely as a kernel panic in Linux. Get over it, it's time to retire those BSOD jokes.
Second, unless any of you have any real experience with the costs associated with outfitting an entity as large as the US Army with computers, I don't think you're qualified to make assumptions about how Linux "obviously" would've saved 50-90% of the cost. There's a saying in business that when you have people bidding on a contract you throw away the top N% (because they're ripping you off) and the bottom N% (lowballers -- they're obviously underestimating the cost of the job and are under-experienced) and pick among the people in the middle. Hmm, where do you think someone like Redhat would show up relative to other bidders? Furthermore, what makes you think that the Army didn't rule out Redhat (or whatever other "Linux support" company) primarily because they have shown NO history of being able to handle customers with needs as large as the Army? When was Redhat's last $470 million contract, hmm? Don't assume that they'd be up to the job of support just because MS can do it and anything MS can do Linux can do better.
I mean really guys, come on. Don't let your seething hatred of MS blind you to realities of the situation. Maybe, just maybe, with all things considered MS was the better choice.
Its true that the average GI can get things done quicker with an M$ OS, but that is on his home PC. While at work though, its about following a SOP (Standard Operating Proceedure) which renders this whole issue MUTE. All you military folk out there should speak up on this. I see so much crap about the fears of having a GI running a computer through a bash prompt... DUH, wake up, do you actually think that Uncle Sam would train everyone on the finer details of *nix? DUH!!! Its about a front-end app that the GI will be working with which means moving a mouse around, plugging in data, just like you would with an app like Excel, or even a Web browser. ITS NOT ABOUT THE OS, its about training.
Actually if the Military doesn't re-distribute whatever GPL software they modify to the outside they can clasify and close off the software all they want.
But dont let that get in the way of your conspiracy theory that open software gets in the way of government spooks.
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
If you had to pay to speak in english would you continue speaking in it or would you change to another language like spanish, russian or chinese which would be 100% to speak in?
I don't know a single word in those lanugages but I would be willing to learn if it was free.
One of "Murphy's Laws of Combat" says, "Never forget that your weapon was manufactured by the lowest bidder". The gist of it is, basically, that you should keep in mind that the gear you're issued is crap, and you shouldn't assume it's going to work when you need it to.
Looks like nowadays, you still get crap, but you don't get to pick low bids. Lovely. Makes me really, really glad I'm already a veteran and too old to draft or drag back in.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Side comment: the poster writes, "At roughly $950 per computer this clearly involves more than just the OS."
Not necessarily. These are the same people who in the past have paid thousands of dollars for hand tools and coffee makers.
they just need the software, did an evaluation, and concluded that to switch over to OSS at this juncture would cost them way more than $471 million thanks to all of the training necessary combined with the very high cost of trying to migrate hundreds of thousands of existing systems and data to a completely different standard.
The DoD and other government entities learned many years ago that they were paying top dollar for hammers and IT work like suckers, and they instituted a lot of very stringent policies that directly address that problem. When they do any kind of major purchase like this you can be sure they have studied it extensively, and sent out RFPs (Request For Proposals) to several competing bidders, fairly evaluated all of the proposals, and selected the winner. $471 million contracts do not get handed out on a handshake anymore because too many people got their ass handed to them in the 80s, and the government took steps to rectify the situation.
Nowadays when bidding on government proposals, you typically have to bid at much lower service rates than you would to a private company, because the proposals are very competitive, and the goverment doesn't want to look like suckers.
Linux can be tedious to set up but I'm so sick and tired of hearing, "But Windows is so much easier. Bash is too hard. Config files are too hard." My mom uses Linux, you know why? Because I set her computer up. It boots into a GUI and a nice clean windowed environment with graphical icons to let her get into all the programs she needs. Is Mozilla Firebird more complex in Linux than in Windows? Is it more complex than IE? My dad still uses Windows because unlike my mom who finally decided to stop being a luddite my dad's been using one for years and has apps he's used to. Still, that's all he knows. When he needs a new email account set up, the background changed or whatever, who does he call? Me. Whether it's a check box or a config file he's gonna call me. My point? Either you're the type that can tweak a computer in which case it doesn't matter if it's a config file or something in a preferences menu because you're trained enough to figure it out or you're the type that's gonna call a tech. I'm sitting here using Xfce4 right now and I almost never touch the shell for standard, day to day operations. I do for certain file management tasks, network troubleshooting and compiling but is the average yutz gonna do that? No. Ultimately we're talking about an organization who has no problem spending MY money on a $400 toilet seat, so why should they even worry about evaluating an alternative? I can see using Windows because they're used to it. That makes sense. But I'm so sick and tired of hearing crap like, "These guys don't give a shit about learning the wonders of the bash shell." There is NO NEED TO EVER SEE A CLI IN LINUX! The Windows GUI isn't any "easier." Clicking an icon and running a program is pretty much the same in both arenas.
What's hard about it, you ask? It's different. Since before Windows 95 I've grown accustomed to expecting certain behaviors from my OS and it's UI. This includes everything from window behavior to more complicated stuff like setting up a network.
Am I just curmudgeonly? Maybe, but I also just haven't had a) the time or b) the motivation to spend time getting used to all of these factors. In a certain sense, I'm betting that the more hardcore Windows users find it more difficult to switch than the less experienced users, simply because certain expectations have become so innate that even the slightest difference requires a significant effort to get used to.
Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
You can't run production boxes on MSDN liscenses. Read the liscense some time and figure out what you get, basically the ability to run the software in a lab environment and access to the detailed information and a certain number of help requests per anum.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
One-tenth of that $471,000,000 would be easily enough to pay people to bring OpenOffice or KOffice well past the quality level of MS Office in a short amount of time.
Think about it! One-tenth of that amount would mean 471 Open Source programmers paid $100,000 for a year.
And yet all those tax dollars are instead being funneled into the Microsoft "Black Hole of Software License Fees" where they will never be seen again and where they will certainly not benefit the public interest. And that's just one-tenth of the contract! What about all that other money?! They could spend another four-tenths on XFree86, KDE, various security-related projects, etc. and STILL have half the contract amount left over to migrate existing army-specific software to Qt or other superior cross-platform toolkit able run native on both the new platform and any old Windoze machines that haven't been converted yet.
I propose that we need a large non-profit Open Source consulting firm that specializes in large corporate and government contracts such as these. (Non-profit in the sense of the programmers are the only ones being paid.)
The only person I know that couldn't 'get used to' a desktop linux distro was my mom, who had trouble using the computer if the "My computer" icon wasn't in the corner.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
You guys have to remember that there is a HUGE digital divide out there and getting soldiers with out much education comfortable with computers tends to be quicker and easier with Windows.
Therefore you want to simplify the training by standardizing on a system which not only holds the record for security vulnerabilities, but whose source has been delivered to the electronic warfare departments of most of our potential enemies but NOT to our own academic-community security specialists?
What do you do the next time there's a conflict and some new crop of blended-threat self-propagating worms (locusts?) suddenly takes out the US Army's entire office infrastructure?
==============
While you're at it, why are you advocating depending on the NON-standardized training the recruits got as civilians rather than teaching them "The Army Way"? (But if you MUST, why not use a Windows-like interface and workalike basic apps, ala Lindows or KDE + OpenOffice, for the basic stuff? They have to learn the army-specific apps anyhow. Meanwhile there's a good chance the next crop of high-school students will be learning on open source platforms rather than Windows, due to developments already discussed on Slashdot.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
You've got to be kidding me! Using IE for pr0n is shooting yourself in the foot!
Mozilla has popup blocking, tabbed browsing, and most important of all: mouse gesture controls. That's right, you can do everything one-handed
Meanwhile I'll watch the day draw nearer where the german military finally switches to SuSE/United Linux or BSD due to unanswered questions wether M$ OSes have secret US-"No such Agency" backdoors built in or not.
Allthough keeping in mind that germany has been blowing 500 Million Euro since the eighties on building a new military IT strukture that still may take a while....
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Department of the Army Fraud, Waste, and Abuse Hotline:
DSN 225-1578
(in Virginia) 800-572-9000
800-752-9747
Phillip
Neally half a billion to MS for licenses & equipment in this one agreement alone? I'm glad I don't live in the US, but if I did I'd seriously consider contacting my congressman or senator about this deal. From the few details made public so far, it looks like the DoD really didn't negotiate that hard for the best deal for taxpayer $$$. I'd be more than a little steamed, considering that with a purchase of this magnitude there is a great deal of negotiating power, now that there are secure alternatives; power that apparently wasn't used. It almost sounds like a subsidy. Would Americans let this issue fade away without investigation?
Then the only viable solution for a large portion of Slashdotters would be to...pirate the English language!
Arrrgghh!!!
-phish
Personally, I can accept nothing less than having my nation's army be in full software licensing compliance while it bombs, invades and occupies other countries. It's the law!
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I think you're some kind of deviated prevert. I think General Ripper found out about your preversion, and that you were organizing some kind of mutiny of preverts.
Can you imagine if a serious hole is found in M$ software, how can the army patch all computers in a short time?!
They should have bought 494,000 $900 hammers. At least they would have something useful to show for it. And what do you want to bet some of the $471,000,000 ends up in the Bush Re-Election Campaign's coffers?