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NERC Releases Interim Report on Aug 14th Blackout

will writes "The North American Electric Reliability Council has released four documents concerning the August 14th power outage power outage in the North East. The blackout investigation homepage lists all NERC's documents relating to this event. Press coverage is at The Washington Post, CNN, and CBS News. The take home message: FirstEnergy did it. The are, of course, denying it." The report is also available at reports.energy.gov. Reader stinkydog writes "According to Yahoo News part of the blame for the big fizzle of 2003 lies with a failing SCADA system, GE's XA/21 power management system. 'Not only did the software that controls audible and visual alarms stop working at 2:14 p.m. EDT, but about a half hour later, two servers supporting the emergency system failed, too.' According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows."

426 comments

  1. Go get 'em! by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


    "According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows."

    Good, let's sue SCO!


    ps: f1st pr05t

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Go get 'em! by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Funny

      'Not only did the software that controls audible and visual alarms stop working at 2:14 p.m. EDT, but about a half hour later, two servers supporting the emergency system failed, too.' According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows.

      Darl McBride had repossessed the system, leaving a bill for $699 and a subpoena in its place.

    2. Re:Go get 'em! by tekspot · · Score: 5, Funny

      "According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows."

      The reason they use X is because their systems are managed by MCSEs.

    3. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It it was GE, then it was Solaris on SPARC. That is the workhorse for GE control systems.

    4. Re:Go get 'em! by esnible · · Score: 1

      According the the vendor's PDF, the XA/21 runs on IBM AIX6000, SUN Solaris, or Motorola AIX.

      Not SCO.

    5. Re:Go get 'em! by mrbaaa · · Score: 1

      http://www.xsorbit2.com/users/eggburger3/index.cgi

    6. Re:Go get 'em! by SiaFhir · · Score: 1
      runs on IBM AIX6000

      ...Which is licensed by SCO, and is the system that SCO alleges IBM took code out of a put into Linux. AIX is essentially the reason the SCO vs. IBM case exists.

    7. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      SCO owns Unix.

    8. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what are we supposed to see there? It's just a message board.

    9. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh you fucking trollbait...

      As if X was nearly usable enough for MCSE's...

    10. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sun Solaris? THAT explains EVERYTHING. Sun Solaris bites hairy ass. I've been using it for the past 3 years where I work to run a crappy iPlanet mail server. What a needlesly complex OS and mail server suite. Sun can't write anything good at all. Solaris is crap. Java is crap. iPlanet is crap. It too me almost 18 hours of straight work to migrate 36 gigs of mail from one iPlanet server to another thanks to Sun's pathetic handling of a DEC DLT drive. But that was a lot better than the 190 hours of FTP time it would have taken if I tried to use their patheic network cards. Sun just plain sucks so much ass. Thank goodness for Linux. I'm trying to get my CIO to see the amount of time we could save moving to that and being self-sufficient rather than opening service requests with Sun and waiting a goddamned month while they fart around telling you "we've never seen this problem before".

    11. Re:Go get 'em! by Ed+Bugg · · Score: 1

      First Energy runs it on AIXs. Been there seen it, played wumpus on it.

      --
      -- Ed Bugg --You have freedom of choice, but not of consequences.--
    12. Re:Go get 'em! by wthynot · · Score: 1


      Well that explains it. For X Windows you need an XMCSE. The MCSE is only for regular Windows. Duh. ;)

    13. Re:Go get 'em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According the the vendor's PDF, the XA/21 runs on IBM AIX6000, SUN Solaris, or Motorola AIX.

      Not SCO.


      However, according to your post, your sense of humour must run on SCO.

    14. Re:Go get 'em! by Locutus · · Score: 1

      I didn't look close but from what I've heard in the past, this system failed because it was on a network which ended up getting flooded with traffice from all the infected Microsoft Windows machines on the same network.

      IMO, if this turns out to be true, Bill and Company still get the finger and should be held responsible for this.

      Where's Microsofts indemnification from damages from it's holey( not holy as Bill thinks ) software?

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    15. Re:Go get 'em! by cmacb · · Score: 1

      "I didn't look close but from what I've heard in the past, this system failed because it was on a network which ended up getting flooded with traffice from all the infected Microsoft Windows machines on the same network."

      That may well be the case. Reporting on these technology glitches often eats major shit. I know that a recent 2-day outage at the Department of State was reported as "minor" (you, know...that system that is supposed to keep the terrorists out?). Moreover I know that the system that was said to be affected by a Microsoft based virus was in fact totally mainframe based. The various reports I read were all nonsense unless you know a bit about the internal working of the system (which apparently spokespersons for the agency do not). My guess is that there was a huge amount of finger pointing within the agency and the "hobbyists" who run the PC front-end to the system didn't want to take full responsibility for the problem so they conveniently substituted the name for the back-end part of the process for the press release.

      If in fact in this case at hand it was actually the Unix component which failed you might also consider that when you have systems that stay up for years at a time with no intervention you can get lazy about things. Maybe Microsoft should make the case that a system that has to be re-booted every few days is MORE secure since the personnel who run such systems are more familiar with recovery procedures. :)

    16. Re:Go get 'em! by jpop32 · · Score: 1

      The reason they use X is because their systems are managed by MCSEs.

      Now, this, my friends, is a masterpiece. Take a case of critical Unix system failure and blame it on Microsoft.

      Respect.

  2. Yeah...that's right... by hookedup · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Funny how all the americans were blaming canada, well guess what? the song doesnt count for _EVERYTHING_!

    1. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Colosse · · Score: 0, Redundant

      That's because of South Parks song : Blame Canada. Or maybe the song was inspired by the country... who knows.

      --
      Colosse.
    2. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding....that was the point of the post..

    3. Re:Yeah...that's right... by eddie+can+read · · Score: 1

      Funny how all the americans were blaming canada

      I read a lot about this and not once did I read an American blaming Canada. It was known that the falling dominoes extended to Canada, but it was also thought early on that the origin of the blackout was in Cleveland, Ohio.

    4. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      But what would Brian Boitano do?

    5. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for comming out, try again next week New York officials blamed Canada as a potential source of the largest blackout in U.S. history, but across the border, the finger was pointed in the other direction.

      Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien said yesterday that the huge outage might have been set in motion when lightning hit a massive hydroelectric complex in Niagara Falls, N.Y.

      But Gov. Pataki and New York officials, while unable to explain the cause of the power failure that at one point cut off 80% of the state's electricity, disputed that it originated on the American side.

    6. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Canadian: So tell me, what do Americans [b]really[/b] think about Canada?

      US Citizen: We don't.

    7. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      < > tags work wonders.

    8. Re:Yeah...that's right... by eddie+can+read · · Score: 1

      New York officials blamed Canada as a potential source of the largest blackout in U.S. history

      The original claim was "all the americans" are blaming Canada. That claim is false, the end.

    9. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I read a lot about this...

      Congratulations, you may be part of the shrinking part of the population who gathers information and actually thinks. Unfortunately, the remainder relies on being spoon-fed from the TeeVee.

    10. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Mayor of New York City directly blamed Canada in the statement he made the day of the blackout. Maybe he was hoping that the gun totin' nuts that inhabit his city would head up north and wreck Toronto, instead of rioting at home.

    11. Re:Yeah...that's right... by eddie+can+read · · Score: 1

      The Mayor of New York City directly blamed Canada in the statement he made the day of the blackout.

      He hardly counts as "all the Americans" (see the original claim I was contesting). I admit that I do come very close to totally ignoring what politicians say.

    12. Re:Yeah...that's right... by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      He's also a known fool and incompetent (and incidentally a billionaire). Don't listen to what he says, no one here does.

  3. X? by Orien · · Score: 0, Troll

    Can someone tell me what X windows has to do with this story?

    1. Re:X? by Interfacer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Typical.
      If they had been Microsoft servers, everyone would have been "Oh well yeah, that's supposed to crash. they should use -INSERT FAVORITE OS- instead."

      now that they ARE unix servers running X (like, how else would you visualise a power plant? cat /proc/powerplant maybe?) the reaction is 'what has X to do with it'.

      IMO X (especially the versions dated several years ago) is crap, so it is no wonder it crashes when the load is increased. in my experience that is when things tend to go wrong.

      i am not saying it WAS X's fault, but it is just as plausible as anything else.

      kind regards,
      Bruno.

    2. Re:X? by Battal+Boy · · Score: 1

      X Windows is notoriously insecure and can be used to root a UNIX system in a variety of surprising ways. The fact was worth mentioning as mission critical systems, as a rule, should definitely NOT be running X Windows...

      This also seems to imply an alternative reason for the power system failures... hmmmm...

      --

      A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist...
    3. Re:X? by mph · · Score: 1
      X Windows is notoriously insecure
      $ ./xkey hal-9000:0
      Xlib: connection to "hal-9000:0.0" refused by server
      Xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server
      Blah, can't open display: hal-9000:0
      Wow, I'm shaking in my boots. Ever hear of not typing "xhost +"?
    4. Re:X? by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I use XFree86, and pass -nolistentcp on the commandline from /etc/Xservers. This is safer, because users cannot start using "xhost +" without understanding the implications. (A social engineer could easily telephone someone and convince them to try that, for example)

    5. Re:X? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, that hack didn't work here.

      But hey, I don't run 'xhost +' either. Looks like you do, though, and that says something about your security skillz :p

    6. Re:X? by Orne · · Score: 1

      Very very little...

      The EMS (Energy Management System) is typically a collection of UNIX machines, each running a specific task towards maintaining grid reliability. It could be Load Forecasting, Transfer Limit Calculations, Contingency Analysis, you name it. The user interfaces I'm familiar with are Motif X Windows based clients on terminals. I don't know about FE, but its become popular in most areas to use VPN tunnelling to a MS Windows machine w/ Exceed to view the screens.

      I suppose the point of the original poster was that because X Windows is a server-based application, when the network that communicated alarms failed, it also slowed down the XServer to the point that the dispatchers were waiting minutes between screen refreshes. Whats worse, when it did update, the data delievered to the clients was stale, so what the dispatchers saw wasn't even the real-time situation, which only confused the situation more.

      According to the report, First Energy was already scheduled to dump the old EMS cluster, and upgrade I believe next year...

  4. A unix system with X windows by Space+cowboy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Can anyone tell me any unix system that can't run X-windows ? I've used a few in my time, and they've all been capable of running X ....

    Simon.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:A unix system with X windows by ShaggyZet · · Score: 1
      One without a framebuffer? (Video card for you PC users out there)

      Probably a fair number of ones that are from before X was created too. Unix predates X by about 15 years. Sort of like DOS and Windows, except that X didn't require a complete re-write because the Unix foundation was (and is) a sound one.

    2. Re:A unix system with X windows by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

      You don't need a framebuffer to run X. I regularly run 'nedit' on my co-lo machines with the display served to the office or home via an ssh tunnel.

      Ok, I guess it could be really really old, but even then, I would have expected any "supported" system to have had X ported to it by the manufacturer. It's not that hard to write the ddx part of an X server (and this mythical old system will almost certainly have a manufacturer-specific framebuffer); and the dix part isn't too hard to compile...

      I just think it's a really odd thing to say. You might as well say, "A unix machine with a 100-baseT port"...

      Simon

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    3. Re:A unix system with X windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can anyone tell me any unix system that can't run X-windows

      There's a difference between can't and isn't. Many unix systems are managed only from the command line.

    4. Re:A unix system with X windows by nolife · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by capable? I have 2 linux machines at home that are not capable of running X Windows. One is a headless floppy based router and the other is my headless Samba sever. I assume each *could* run X if I installed everything that was required to run X windows but as they sit now, they are scaled down to do what I need which is not X.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    5. Re:A unix system with X windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the point was that the SCADA system uses X Window, not that the UNIX involved can run X Window..

    6. Re:A unix system with X windows by ShaggyZet · · Score: 1

      Need a display *somewhere*, and a transport mechanism to get to it if the display is remote. Some old control system might not have any sort of general purpose networking. Even today, I'd bet most embedded systems don't have X. In any case, it could be that the previous version was a Unix system with only a text console. Unix system with 100BaseT wouldn't seem like a silly thing to say in 1994 when 10BaseT was standard.

    7. Re:A unix system with X windows by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Well, if you're willing to accept default installation, NeXT/OPENstep can't---you had to install third-party software (e.g., Cub'X) to get access to X Window software.

      Mac OS X shares this difficiency up through Jaguar (had to go get X11.app or use Fink), though w/ Panther it's an optional install.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    8. Re:A unix system with X windows by eatdave13 · · Score: 1

      You're not running X on that computer, you're running X on your local computer. The remote is just an X client.

      --
      "Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin
    9. Re:A unix system with X windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, the original Unix? Every Unix prior to the mid-80s or so?

  5. Oh boy, here it comes by Stonent1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    it is a Unix system with X Windows

    Send in..... the Trolls.

  6. Are they into warez? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    http://www.nerc.com/~filez/

    just wondering if their webmasters are into the warez business...

  7. X Windows? by loconet · · Score: 1, Informative

    X Window not X Windows

    --
    [alk]
    1. Re:X Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, GNU/X Window can you say 'martinet'?

    2. Re:X Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      X is not under the GNU/GPL

    3. Re:X Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      #if defined PEDANTIC_ASSHOLE

      Either 'X' or 'X Windowing System'.

      #endif /* PENDANTIC_ASSHOLE */

      And just so I can be 'labeled' a troll, anyone who calls the parent informative is a fuck-tard.

    4. Re:X Windows? by ThisIsFred · · Score: 1

      I though it was "X-Window" or just "X".

      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
    5. Re:X Windows? by glassware · · Score: 1

      You, sir, are probably one of those people who keeps correcting me when I talk about connecting my desktop X client to the remote X server.

      As Winston Churchill might have said, "You are a pedant up with whom I cannot put."

    6. Re:X Windows? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I scan-read the article.. blah blah power failure blah blah controller blah blah windows.
      'oh no', thought I, not *another* something-run-by-windows fails story.

      Imagine my surprise when I read it all. I'm even more surprised it got past the editors.

    7. Re:X Windows? by SiaFhir · · Score: 1

      I also heard "X Server" a few times.

    8. Re:X Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's 'fucktard', you smarmy git.

    9. Re:X Windows? by SpamJunkie · · Score: 1

      No, It's actually Ex-Windows.

    10. Re:X Windows? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Shh, some people are trying to get "Windows" genericized (vs. "Microsoft Windows(tm)").

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    11. Re:X Windows? by O.M.A.C. · · Score: 0

      You forgot the, "I remember hearing(or reading) about how the Windows box brought the power grid down but I can't find the link" comments in the future.

      --
      /* It's amazing the damage someone with a stunted sense of humor and mod points can do to your karma. */
    12. Re:X Windows? by eatdave13 · · Score: 1

      That's like calling someone pedantic because they correct you when you say you drove your house to your car.

      Although, if you think a mistake like that is acceptable, maybe you DO drive your house to your car.

      --
      "Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin
    13. Re:X Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's "X Window System", not "X Windowing System".

  8. I can see it now... by Spleener12 · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    At least one person is going to say something along the lines of the following:

    "Yeah, since it was a *nix box that failed, it's all right, but if it was a MS box that was at fault you'd all be, like, 'OMG MICROSOFT SUXXORS,' you goddamed zealot hypocrits!"

    1. Re:I can see it now... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I need to research this some more. I could have sworn on earlier reports...it said something to the effect that the Unix boxes were the controllers...but, they were shut off from the network, or couldn't get through due to the windows boxes having problems...not sure if it was one of the worms causing this or what...

      Not trolling, but, really do think I heard or read it about it from one of the news sources.

      Anyone else know anything like this?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:I can see it now... by Spleener12 · · Score: 1

      STILL trying to blame it on MS? You goddaned *nix whore.

      Seriously, though, I do remember reading somewhere that the Blaster worm was somewhat responsible for the outages.

    3. Re:I can see it now... by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      Ummm...he is. Those were initial speculations, but this seems like more in depth findings.

    4. Re:I can see it now... by jgregs75 · · Score: 1

      Go back to sucking Bill off.

  9. Flame bait by gnuLNX · · Score: 2, Funny

    My god was the unix comment WITH X WINDOWS really necassary. ok so I will bite. SHoulda been a linux computer then it would not have crashed. HA!

    --
    what?
    1. Re:Flame bait by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Whoa there just a minit, chief! The report says the UNIX systems FAILED, not crashed. You can have a hardware failure no matter what kind of operating system you were running.
      Even the most stable UNIX systems are vulnerable to hardware failures.

    2. Re:Flame bait by suso · · Score: 1

      Ok, but you're expecting these guys in blue suits to really distinquish the difference between a failure and a crash?

  10. Told Ya So by Valiss · · Score: 1, Funny

    See, if they were using MS Windows, it would have crashed LONG ago and we wouldn't be talking about it today. We'd be talking about it years ago. And then again last year. And then again this... uh nevermind.

    --

    -Valiss
    1. Re:Told Ya So by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 1

      BAAAA. Sheep.

      --
      evil adrian
  11. Microsoft sucks by Meor · · Score: 5, Funny

    [Slashdot]
    You shouldn't use MS products for such a critical system.

    What? It was a unix system?

    Must have been a hardware failure then.
    [/slashdot]

    1. Re:Microsoft sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, isn't this the excuse we've been hearing for Winders for, what? the last fucking 10 years?

    2. Re:Microsoft sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You idiot! Your syntax is all wrong. Everyone knows it should be ... </slashdot>, not [slashdot] .... [/slashdot]

    3. Re:Microsoft sucks by h8macs · · Score: 1

      You know I find the flaming of ones OS preference just stupid no matter which camp you are in. I don't care what OS you use, I don't care what OS 'you say you use'. We all use what is either required of us, or what we choose to use for the particular need. With that said, I would NEVER use an MS based OS for the following. Anything that might cause someone to die, get hurt, or lose america's finance records.

      The power being controlled could kill, as older folks and infants can not regulate body temperature as well as us young adults can. Hospital systems that are used to do heart surgery or brain surgery, would not be candidates for a 'blue screen of death'.

      Unix/Linux/BSD are more reliable, and have been proven. Best example that comes to mind The Internet

      Stop attacking each other for OS preference, who cares.

      --
      :-( --- argh. Despair, I owe again. :-b
    4. Re:Microsoft sucks by DeltaSigma · · Score: 1

      In the spirit of free software:
      [Slashdot]

      [Advertisement]
      The new FrontPage 2003.
      {VIEW DEMO}
      [/Advertisement]

      You shouldn't use MS products for such a critical system.

      What? It was a unix system?

      Must have been a hardware failure then.

      [/Slashdot]

    5. Re:Microsoft sucks by jeffy124 · · Score: 1

      of course it was a hardware failure: The box lost power. ;-)

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    6. Re:Microsoft sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, if all my financial records were lost, that'd be a good thing.

      Hey, what are you doing with my computer? Give it bajdsklkjadsfoii`!

    7. Re:Microsoft sucks by freeweed · · Score: 1

      That's not Slashdot, that's the real world. /me ducks

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    8. Re:Microsoft sucks by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      please.. "never use MS OS for the power system because it might fail", so they used a Unix system and .. it failed. Perhaps you think they should never use something as unreliable as a unix system either then.

      The reason the DNS servers are super-reliable is because there are many of them, in a federated architecture. 1 can crash hourly, and the web will still work.

    9. Re:Microsoft sucks by Detritus · · Score: 1

      Saying that "the system failed" is imprecise. Was it the hardware, the operating system, the application, or some other software component like a database?

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    10. Re:Microsoft sucks by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      It was the technician performing maintenence, if you read the report.

    11. Re:Microsoft sucks by pmz · · Score: 1

      Must have been a hardware failure then.

      More likely: custom software.

  12. Memo to power company: by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Funny
    Not only did the software that controls audible and visual alarms stop working at 2:14 p.m. EDT, but about a half hour later, two servers supporting the emergency system failed, too.

    Memo to power company:

    Put power-system controlling servers on UPSes :-)

    (yeah yeah, I know, it wasn't because they lost power. Its a joke :-)

    1. Re:Memo to power company: by tekspot · · Score: 1

      "Memo to power company:
      Put power-system controlling servers on UPSes :-)
      (yeah yeah, I know, it wasn't because they lost power. Its a joke :-)
      "


      Do we know for sure that the servers went down NOT because of power outage? ;-)

  13. Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it's really hard to perform that kind of investigation and looking at the results I think they did a good job making the results widely available. Anyway, it's still unacceptable that such things happens in the most powerful country in the world.

    Flame me if you want but France is known to have one of the best electrical system in the world. The government owns it and some laws do protect the costumer. It allows France to export a lot of power to other European countries thus making a lot of money from it and playing a big role in Europ energy.

    I think France made good choices for power:
    - nuclear (or nuculear whatever). Much cheaper and cleaner than oil. France is very strong on nuclear technology and do export its knowledge to other countries. To date we didn't have any major incident and I think it's pretty secure as long as enough money is spent.
    - public service. There is a law in France stating that every citizen, wherever he lives, as the right to have access to electricity for free. Of course we pay bills but if you live in the country the government MUST bring you access to electricity even if you live far from everything. It's a law so sometimes it's not really followed but most of the time the government sticks to it.

    When I arrived in the USA I was shocked by the poor quality of your electric system. Many outages, expensive bills and thousand of wires in the sky ! I think that it's a very advanced country with an outdated power system. I've seen on the TV recently that many companies as starting to produce their own power. I really think it's pretty bad since the installations needed are dangerous, potentially explosive and very expensive.

    What happened on August the 14th also suggests that a country really depends on its energy distribution system and that it could be, in the near future, target for terrorists.

    1. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      France has an excellent electrical infrastructure
      because it's almost all NUCLEAR. We can't build
      nuclear power plants in this country anymore
      because of the left wing extremists that run
      our goverment thru lawsuits.

    2. Re:Now we know... by (startx) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's all about early adopter. We invested huge amounts of money to wire up the whole country before nuclear was an option, and there's no way we can spend that much again to rip it all out and replace it with newer/better/safer alternatives. Same thing with our telephone system, cable tv, internet, etc. We're trying to squeeze every last ounce of usefulness out of the existing system, while so-called "3rd world" countries are getting the latest and greatest tech because they have no prior investments.

    3. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      France is very strong on nuclear technology and do export its knowledge to other countries.

      Yes, we're well aware of that! Why even countries swimming in oil, like Iraq, Iran and Libya, import French nuclear technology!

      Sorry, it was an informative post (Although where are all these outages you get?) and I agree with you about nukes but I couldn't resist...

    4. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      France is known to have one of the best electrical system in the world. The government owns it and some laws do protect the costumer. It allows France to export a lot of power

      So why is electricity so expensive in France? I pay less than 5 cents per kWh. I've seen many apartment buildings in France where the lights aren't on in the hallways because it's so expensive. I've even seen hotels where they keep track of electricity used by guests and bill accordingly.

    5. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or how about blaming the right wing extemists who are in bed with the energy companies who really are the ones who are actually screwing us all.

      Doh! don't you feel dumb...really dumb...dumb,dumb,dumb.....really dumb

    6. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      I think it's because your system depends on private companies.

      For the power plants you can still switch to nuclear, you don't need to re-wire it all to go from oil to nuclear.

      And I also think that it would cost a lot to get a brand new system but I also think that you would save a lot of money because this 14th of August thing did cost A LOT, the bills would be less expensive (due to nuclear) and you would then be less dependant on oil which is the source of all your recents problems...

    7. Re:Now we know... by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The biggest difference is that France puts their power lines underground. Here in Silicon Valley, some French colleagues were shocked at the frequent power disruptions during the winter. Well, of course the power was out, the locals tell them, there was a big storm! (The "big storm" consists of an inch of rain and a short period of 40 mph winds, which knocks down all the power lines).

    8. Re:Now we know... by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      It is easier in France because people live a lot closer together.

      "With an average population of 107 inhabitants per km2, France is relatively densely populated in global terms. The average population density worldwide is 45 inhabitants per km2, and the United States has a population density of only 29 inhabitants per km2. "

      What is the price per kw/h you have to pay in france.

    9. Re:Now we know... by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      I have had 3 blackouts in my neighborhood since the summer. The first one was the big blackout, the other two were due to highway construction hitting underground power cables. On the other hand we've had several big wind storms and haven't lost power. Just an anecdote but YMMV.

    10. Re:Now we know... by JayBlalock · · Score: 1
      So we can spend as much as the rest of the world combined (almost) on "Defense," yet can't spare a billion or so to bring our power grid to a point more modern than the 60s?

      Does this make sense?

      --
      Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
    11. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      Hum... where do you get this information from ? From the same source that told you that Irak was full of WMD ?

      Gimme a break and stop saying things that you didn't verify.

      I get that many outages in Florida, I live near the beach in Hallandale, North Miami. We also have many troubles with the water supplies.

    12. Re:Now we know... by (startx) · · Score: 1

      sorry, the "re-wire" comment was in response to the comment about seeing wires all over the place above ground. It all kind of slide together in my post.

    13. Re:Now we know... by JayBlalock · · Score: 1
      I'm American, have been all my life, and I agree. Fundamentally, I believe the Power Grid is too important to leave solely in the control of private individuals.

      That blackout should have been a terrifying wakeup call to everyone in the country. Had it been caused by an act of deliberate sabotage (a large bomb on that same place on the power grid would achieve the same effect) the hypothetical attackers would have had an entire weekend to pummel New England with virtually no way for the area to respond. And the fundamental reason it would have happened was because the power companies are greedy and will never upgrade their lines past bare-bones maintenence if it means cutting into their stockholder's profit margins.

      Thanks to land lines, the Internet, Cell Phones, and Satellites, we have a completely robust communications network. No one will ever manage to cut out our ability to talk with each other. Which means the single biggest liability left in the country, infrastructure-wise, is the power grid.

      Yet despite this rather vivid demonstration of how vulnerable it is, our government is doing virtually nothing to correct the problem.

      Yay for Homeland Security.

      --
      Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
    14. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      The average citizen in France doesn't waste energy like the average American. We do not drive SUV that can't do better than 10 mpg per gallon...

      And the average citizen in France doesn't have as much money as the average American citizen.

      I also would like to add that here in Florida I spend more than 100$/month on electricity bill with many outages whereas in France I used to spend less than 40$/month with a MUCH better service. Efficiency ?

    15. Re:Now we know... by barks · · Score: 1

      I live in Ontario and I distrubed when I learnt that the city of Pickering, which has an enormous nuclear power stations, was also victim to the August 14th blackout.

      It was apparently shut down to prevent an "incident" as part of the chain control measures. Although it was not the blame of the blackout, it's still part of system. Is it fair that the residents have to live a city with the possible threat of nuclear destruction only to have no power like the rest of the other cities running them so-called ineffiective oil power plants? Where's Pickering's return on risk using that efficent nuclear power?

    16. Re:Now we know... by Ktulu_03 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Both sides are screwing us, in my opinion. The right needs to realize that we must plan for the future to minimize our dependence on oil (especially foreign sources). the left needs to realize that some short-term solutions (more nuclear plants, drilling in alaska) need to take place until the longer-term solutions are in place.

      I also feel that we should use some solar in a reasonable fashion. especially in cities where they are consistently hotter, because of all the concrete. Out in the burbs where I am, I've seen a house that has some PVC pipes and a solar cell on their garage roof, must be some solar water heating system. Every little bit helps.

    17. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Verify? It's not like there's any question that France sold the Osirak reactor to Iraq (here is your leader closing the deal with Saddam) and continues to sell nuclear technology to countries with absolutely no conceivable, non-military use for it.

      In all seriousness, are the Franch genuinely unaware of that fact? By the way, I was wrong about Iran -- Siemens built their reactors, not a French company. The planned Libyan reactor is a mixed French/Belgian project.

    18. Re:Now we know... by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
      We do not drive SUV that can't do better than 10 mpg per gallon...

      That's because your roads look like they were built by the WinkyToy Corporation (TM). Six feet across, yay! It's difficult to drive a Ford Explorer in France without occasionally hitting houses. I know, I tried it once (well, truth be told it was a Ford Fiesta).

      Blah blah blah we europeans are zo much bettar than ze warmongering uncouth imperialistic amerikans blah blah blah. pass ze foie gras, sivuplez.

      Of course, if it wasn't for the warmongering uncouth americans you'd still be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Third Reich and your prime minister's last name would be Von Dickendorf. So please shut the fuck up.

    19. Re:Now we know... by unother · · Score: 1

      Erm, this is an idiotic excuse.

      Sure, the average density in the United States is less than in France. But France does not have large sparsely populated areas such as Alaska and a great deal of the Southwest and Prairie States, like we do.

      You should look at a map before you rely on a mere statistic. Population denisties in the eastern US are very comparable to European densities, and only serves to point out how ridiculous it is that this could happen.

    20. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      Osirak reactor was built in the seventies. I also can look at history and ask you who let Saddam in control of Irak in the nineties ?

      In the seventies nobody looked at Saddam saying he was a threat.

    21. Re:Now we know... by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      I also would like to add that here in Florida I spend more than 100$/month on electricity bill with many outages whereas in France I used to spend less than 40$/month with a MUCH better service.

      Yes, and your temperatures between Florida and France are so similar. How much did you run fans, AC, and other cooling technologies in Florida as compared to France? Heck, how many people died in France this summer -- a summer which had highs several degrees lower than those in Florida (much less Arizonia or New Mexico)?

      As for outages -- exactly how many thunderstorms did you have in Florida as compared to France?

      Yes, there's things to envy about the French electrical grid. There's things to envy about the US grid as well. They're not directly comparable though. Anyone who thinks they are is simply uninformed.

    22. Re:Now we know... by unother · · Score: 1

      Maybe that would be because power facilities aren't like lightbulbs, as in, the closer you are, the more light you have.

      This was an enormous grid failure with automated shutdowns required due to the fact that it would have otherwise destroyed the local portion of the grid. Remember, this wasn't a power generation failure...

    23. Re:Now we know... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      It's easy to supply power to a country that doesn't have air conditioners.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    24. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      Show me where I lied in the above post...

      Why are you so angry, because it's the truth ?

      Take 10 minutes and click on the link in my signature, many important Americans citizens have been interviewed in this article. Quite interesting and so damn true...

    25. Re:Now we know... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1
      That's because your roads look like they were built by the WinkyToy Corporation (TM). Six feet across, yay! It's difficult to drive a Ford Explorer in France without occasionally hitting houses. I know, I tried it once (well, truth be told it was a Ford Fiesta).

      As opposed to the downtown US cities with the same problems?

      Of course, if it wasn't for the warmongering uncouth americans you'd still be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Third Reich and your prime minister's last name would be Von Dickendorf. So please shut the fuck up.

      And if it wasn't for the French, perhaps most notably M. LaFayette, you Americans would still be a British colony.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    26. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      Yes, and your temperatures between Florida and France are so similar. How much did you run fans, AC, and other cooling technologies in Florida as compared to France? Heck, how many people died in France this summer -- a summer which had highs several degrees lower than those in Florida (much less Arizonia or New Mexico)?

      One A/C system where I live but no heating devices. In France I had no A/C but a heating device. Quite the same.

      As for outages -- exactly how many thunderstorms did you have in Florida as compared to France?

      Since I arrived 6 months ago: none in Florida.

      There's things to envy about the US grid as well.

      I disagree, it's old, expensive, deficient... Tell me what to envy to such a system in such an advanced country ? Many places in America still don't have any access to the powergrid. Ok the country is VERY BIG, but hey do you REALLY think it's normal ?
    27. Re:Now we know... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Actually, we use to have a good system. It has been decaying for the last 8 years. Sad but true.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    28. Re:Now we know... by oni · · Score: 1

      Would the power grid be better managed if the government were in charge of it though? I'm not sure it would be. I think we'd have all the same problems we have now, plus others including most likely longer delays due to outages. Do you really think a government employee would work all through the night to restore your power? ha!

      And on top of those problems, every time we the people demand an upgrade the government would happily raise our taxes by twice whatever the upgrade would cost and then take twice as long as the evil corporations to actually implement the upgrade.

      Finally, when there is a big blackout like what happened in new england, what are you going to do about it? Are you really going to vote for the other political party? I think not. Corporations are amoral. Everyone knows that. But at least they have the threat of lawsuits hanging over their head. The power companies stand to lose a lot of money because of this blackout. I think that's a pretty good incentive to make upgrades where they are cost-effective. The government has no such incentive. If the government was in charge they'd let things fall apart and then after a big blackout they'd blame the other party and say "we must raise taxes on the wealthiest american's to upgrade our power grid"

      Yeah, I really don't think government involvement is going to improve the situation. Maybe I'm off-base but that's my opinion.

    29. Re:Now we know... by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
      Show me where I lied in the above post...

      Show me where I lied in the above post. If you're just trying to make a point, make it without going down the "americans suck" path, because you have exactly *zero* say in what americans drive, eat, spit or fuck. Period. And I am honestly sick and tired of hearing people like you excercise their freedom of speech (largely made possible by America) to bash America, and then complain when someone calls them on their bullshit. Are you complaining? Or do you have something constructive to say?

      Why are you so angry, because it's the truth ?

      No, I'm not angry. You know what happens to people when americans get angry at them, don't you? I'm being quite amicable. And what's "the truth"? That we drive incredibly inefficient cars? That we have an inefficient electric grid? So what? What's it to you?

      Take 10 minutes and click on the link in my signature

      Bwahahahaha. That does it, let's fold up people. We'll deactivate the military, swear allegiance to her majesty the Queen, give you the Louisiana territories back in a few days and bend over. We're sorry we exist. *snort*

    30. Re:Now we know... by barks · · Score: 1

      I realize that...the parent to this discussion suggested we take a lesson from France who uses nuclear power, when even he himself admits the dangers and expenses.

      After a nuclear explosion or something to midget the devastation of Hiroshima, cities like Pickering will sever them grid connections and become more greedy.... hmmm yes, because that will certainly provide a solution to blackouts. *sarcasm*

    31. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      Show me where I lied in the above post.

      You attacked me first without giving real arguments...
      You know what happens to people when americans get angry at them, don't you?

      Unfortunately... yes. But you know you can still change the way you react to critics...
      you excercise their freedom of speech (largely made possible by America)

      Yes, freedom of speech. Comes from OUR revolution back in 1789, you know ? we call that human rights. Go say to the Dixie Chicks about freedom of speech in America. They will explain to you why after saying that the war in Irak was a bad idea they didn't have the right to go in Florida anymore... And it's only ONE exmaple.
    32. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The government owns it [www.edf.fr] and some laws do protect the costumer."

      So you have to be gay and work in the entertainment industry to have the law protect you? Those crazy French!

    33. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      lol :)

      Sorry for the mispell of 'customer'.

    34. Re:Now we know... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I live in Ontario and I distrubed when I learnt that the city of Pickering, which has an enormous nuclear power stations, was also victim to the August 14th blackout.

      The problem is that the power generation has been changed. It used to be that power was sent into local areas and then allowed to flow to other places upon demand iff supply could handle it. A good example was that Colorado could provide its' own power with out any problems. Once we were sold to the texans, they hooked in to their state. Then the texans sold it to XO in Minnosota, who then proceeded to try and connect everything together. That means that the energy here flows to Texas, Minnosota, Nebraska, etc. The same happened on your grid. What is needed is to return to what we use to have. That is, that power goes to a local area and excess is sent around. Ideally, there would be generation and storage in each area. who knows what will happen.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    35. Re:Now we know... by JayBlalock · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Simple scientific method-approach to a problem. A Problem exists. If you cannot logically derive the solution beforehand, you try Solution A. If, given adequate time, Solution A fails to solve the problem, you move on to Solution B.

      Our power grid has not been upgraded significantly in decades. The power companies have shown quite well that, without direct regulation, they are not going to willingly do so. (especially as the costs of upgrading go up every year technology advances and the grid goes up) Ergo, at this point it's time to try a new solution.

      I'm not talking about centrally socializing the entire grid or something. In a country our size, that would be impractical (as opposed to someplace much smaller like France). But the fact remains, it is a gigantic problem for the country - both in terms of security AND the sheer common sense social benefits to having a stable power grid. And it's getting worse every year thanks to entropy.

      My proposal would be along the lines of: Form an INDEPENDENT committee. (IE no industry folks acting as anything but advisors) It decides what needs to be upgraded for us to have a power grid roughly on par with Europe's. It gives the power companies adequate time (a decade? Years anyway) to achieve this. And it gives them some money to do so. (as I pointed out in another post, since this is very much a matter of national security, I can see no reason why we can't take a billion or so normally meant for building bombs and use it for the power grid instead)

      Canada would undoubtedly help us out in this, as our grids are (we know now) so closely tied together.

      And at the end of that time limit, if the power companies have failed to upgrade themselves, THEN we start talking about getting draconian and collectivizing everything - since at that point the power companies would have well proven beyond reasonable doubt they are putting their own financial profits ahead of *national security.* Such an entity would have no right to exist within the US, as far as I'm concerned. (or at least not to own and control such an important chunk of our infrastructure)

      (and sadly, I can easily see them pocketing the money and then doing nothing. Just look at how much Verizon has stolen from various states with promises of fiber-optic upgrades that never happened)

      --
      Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
    36. Re:Now we know... by krewemaynard · · Score: 1

      nuclear power in the US? are you kidding?! we can't even drill for oil in ALASKA...can you imagine the greenik's reaction if we tried to put NUCLEAR power in the any of the great 48?

      if we can't even drill in a a teeny tiny part of one of the freak states, how are we gonna get a nuclear plant in, say, maryland? all people will think about is all the mutated animals from the Simpsons.

      --
      I saw it on Slashdot, it must be true!
    37. Re:Now we know... by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
      As opposed to the downtown US cities with the same problems?

      No, as opposed to the entire French land transport infrastructure. If you must nitpick, at least come up with a good point of reference.

      And if it wasn't for the French, perhaps most notably M. LaFayette, you Americans would still be a British colony.

      Debatable and a bit revisionist, but OK. Where are you from? I'm sure I can go back in time and make a similar argument. Funny how that works, eh?

    38. Re:Now we know... by ibpooks · · Score: 1

      The average citizen in France doesn't waste energy like the average American.

      Source? Proof? Let's move on to the next lie

      We do not drive SUV that can't do better than 10 mpg per gallon...

      Neither do we. Mine does 22, and my wife's car does 35. I can't think of any SUV that gets 10 MPG, except maybe a Hummer but those are exceedingly rare. Next lie.

      And the average citizen in France doesn't have as much money as the average American citizen.

      Could that be because the government takes more, and the average Frenchman works ~35 hours per week?

      I also would like to add that here in Florida I spend more than 100$/month on electricity bill with many outages whereas in France I used to spend less than 40$/month with a MUCH better service.

      So stop wasting energy; buy energy efficient appliances, add more insulation, read by candlelight. I live in Michigan and spend at most (August & January) $100/month on electricity and natural gas combined for a 1200 sq. ft. home. Other months it's as low as $60 or $70.

      Efficiency?

      Somehow I think that $60 difference (and probably more) is hidden in higher taxes. So what brings you to this American hellhole, zeux?

    39. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      Debatable and a bit revisionist

      But absolutely true.

      Funny how that works, eh?

      You did start to use it.
    40. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The average citizen in France doesn't waste energy like the average American.


      No, and when it hits 80 degrees, 14,000 people die. But hey, I'm sure you saved a lot of money.

    41. Re:Now we know... by hellraizr · · Score: 1

      As for outages -- exactly how many thunderstorms did you have in Florida as compared to France? Since I arrived 6 months ago: none in Florida.

      Where the hell were you yesterday when fort lauderdale almost blew away!? or the past month when it rained EVERY DAY, and 1/2 of the storms were thunder storms.

      and as for the grid in america, you ppl across the pond are forgetting how many ppl this grid services and the shear massive size of it. we're talking an area with 50-60 million or more people easy and one of the most complex grids on the planet.

      Sure france, EU in general might have better phones, power, etc but thats only because your very late players in the game. electricity was discovered here and phones invented here so our grids tends to be the oldest by quite a margain. your countries aren't much more than our states are, so it's much easier to manage something cut off from your neighboors except in defined meeting places. our power goes everywhere in all directions to anyone who will buy it, further complicating an extremely complicated thing. I think this is a total unfair comparison.

    42. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Quite the same

      No, not quite the same. A 220v AC compressor consumes much more electricity than a gas-electric furnace.

      Get your facts straight before you go mouthing off into the distance.

    43. Re:Now we know... by Dave_bsr · · Score: 1

      There will never be a nuclear explosion from a nuclear power plant. Explosions, maybe. Radiation, yeah. But no nuclear fission/fusion type accidents. It doesn't work like that.

      People are just too dang scared of nuclear power because of way too many stupid movies. grarg.

      --


      Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
    44. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      Source? Proof? Let's move on to the next lie

      Just for electricty: here. Do you want the numbers for the oil consumption too ? Because it's damn WORSE.

      Neither do we. Mine does 22, and my wife's car does 35. I can't think of any SUV that gets 10 MPG, except maybe a Hummer but those are exceedingly rare. Next lie.

      The Dodge Durango v8 of one of my colleague isn't doing more than 10 mpg. A typical European car do more than 40 mpg.
      Could that be because the government takes more, and the average Frenchman works ~35 hours per week?

      Absolutely our government takes a lot and we work less. That's the reason I'm in Florida: money, do you think I'm here because I like the country ? If so you are wrong and I'm not alone.
      So stop wasting energy; buy energy efficient appliances, add more insulation, read by candlelight

      I'm renting the place where I live and here the government doesn't help you financially when you want to make your home more energy efficient. In France it does.
      Somehow I think that $60 difference (and probably more) is hidden in higher taxes. So what brings you to this American hellhole, zeux?

      I never denied it. Once again, why do you think I'm here ?
    45. Re:Now we know... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      My point is that at this point, very few people who drive SUVs should be; as far as I'm concerned, SUVs should be banned from the streets of most cities/towns.

      And how, prey tell, is my statement revisionist? Do you deny the roles that LaFayette, Rochambeau and DeGrasse played in winning the War of Independence?

      I'm Canadian, by the way. And yes, it is funny how that works. But if you want to claim that America is the sole reason a fifty year old war turned out the way it did, I'll point out that France a huge reason, if not the reason, a 250 year old war turned out the way it did.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    46. Re:Now we know... by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
      You use the words "truth" and "absolute" with alarming ease.

      And BTW, you're kidding yourself if Lafayette and Rochambeau were helping the continental army kick Cornwallis' butt out of the kindness of their dear hearts. They were doing it to stick it to the man, no more no less. Go brush up on your history. At least Roosevelt didn't liberate France (from the Germans and the nice Vichy folks) because he had a beef with Hitler.

    47. Re:Now we know... by Zathrus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One A/C system where I live but no heating devices. In France I had no A/C but a heating device. Quite the same.

      Uh, no. Heating is considerably cheaper to do than cooling, even if you do both by electrical means. In most areas of the world where heating is a concern you don't do it electrically -- because burning gas is much more effective. It's also considerably easier to insulate against cold than it is against heat.

      Since I arrived 6 months ago: none in Florida.

      And exactly where do you live in Florida? Most of it has daily thunderstorms. Florida is the lightning strike capital of the world.

      Many places in America still don't have any access to the powergrid. Ok the country is VERY BIG, but hey do you REALLY think it's normal ?

      Yes, I do. Do you realize that France is only a bit bigger than twice the size of Colorado? Or that the US has nearly as many square kilometers of water as France has square kilometers of land? The US has to provide power to roughly 5x the number of people on roughly 20x the amount of land.

      Take a look at Russia, the Ukraine, China, India, or any other large, geographically diverse country. How much of it is wired? Frankly, the US probably has more wired than any other country. Heck, if you want a fun comparison, go look at Canada -- they have communities off the grid too. Sure, they're way the heck up North, but that's where most of the unpowered commnities are in the US too (largely in Alaska, some in the Rockies -- good luck finding anyone off the grid not by their own choice in the Northeast, which is a much more accurate comparison to France).

      France doesn't have to deal with a lot of the issues that the US does. Like ants that will happily chew through electrical insulation (fire ants in the SE US; between that and clay soil it makes burying cable extremely expensive)? No permafrost either. Tornados? Hurricanes? Nope.

      Tell me what to envy to such a system in such an advanced country

      I challenge you to show me another country that has anywhere close to the same issues and is doing better than the US. We could be doing better on fossil fuels (particularly oil -- we have absurd reserves of coal and natural gas; but even for oil we only import roughly twice as much as we produce), and I would certainly like to see the US move back toward nuclear power. But we have some of the cheapest power in the world, and the cost of power is a baseline for everything else in the economy. It's one of the key reasons that we have such a strong economy, and have had one since the advent of industrialization.

    48. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      Where the hell were you yesterday when fort lauderdale almost blew away!? or the past month when it rained EVERY DAY, and 1/2 of the storms were thunder storms.

      If that's what you call a thunderstorm then so yes we have things like that in France. Where are you in Fort Lauderdale ? Nice to meet a /. reader not far from me.

      and as for the grid in america, you ppl across the pond are forgetting how many ppl this grid services and the shear massive size of it. we're talking an area with 50-60 million or more people easy and one of the most complex grids on the planet.

      The French electric grid serves 60 millions people in France. But of course I agree on the 'distance' thing. But hey the system is shitty even in the cities here...
      Sure france, EU in general might have better phones, power, etc but thats only because your very late players in the game. electricity was discovered here and phones invented here so our grids tends to be the oldest by quite a margain. your countries aren't much more than our states are, so it's much easier to manage something cut off from your neighboors except in defined meeting places. our power goes everywhere in all directions to anyone who will buy it, further complicating an extremely complicated thing. I think this is a total unfair comparison.

      I have to disagree again (I'm not doing that on purpose sorry). The french system was built very soon in the century and we just gave a lot of money to maintain it so it's up to date. Since at least 5 years the American powergrid suffer funding cuts.
    49. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, true... but then again who was the first country to build an electrical system? If it aint broke, don't fix it is usually the motto here. Unlike France we haven't suffered any massive wars since we built the system so nothing like what France has was needed here.

    50. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      You use the words "truth" and "absolute" with alarming ease.

      Your president use the words "evil" and "good" with alarming ease. BTW, I did use 'absolutely' and 'true'.
      At least Roosevelt didn't liberate France (from the Germans and the nice Vichy folks) because he had a beef with Hitler.

      He did that because Hitler was becoming more and more dangerous for American citizens with its v1 and v2 missiles and his increasing power.
    51. Re:Now we know... by Quikah · · Score: 1

      I live in Los Angeles, spend about $25/month and the only power interruption in the 8 years I have lived here that has effected me was about a month ago and lasted about a minute. It is a bit ridiculous to compare Florida, a hot and humid climate, with France, a temperate climate. Use the AC as much as you did in France and I can bet your power bill will dramatically drop.

      --
      Q.
    52. Re:Now we know... by Lozzer · · Score: 1

      I fear you would run out of history before he does, but by all means serve it up, I'm entertained by the whole thread.

      --
      Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
    53. Re:Now we know... by RickoniX · · Score: 1

      I live in Maryland, and I'm about 20 minutes away from a nuclear power plant, granted, it's in Deleware, but it's there nonetheless

      --
      Geekleak.com - Silly name, serious geeks
    54. Re:Now we know... by tealover · · Score: 1

      Yes, freedom of speech. Comes from OUR revolution back in 1789, you know ? we call that human rights. Go say to the Dixie Chicks about freedom of speech in America. They will explain to you why after saying that the war in Irak was a bad idea they didn't have the right to go in Florida anymore... And it's only ONE exmaple.

      I would like to set up a shop selling Nazi memorabilia in Paris. Can you help me get that started ?

      --
      -- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
    55. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 2, Insightful
      First of all, thanks for being kind in your answer, it's worth the read and it's not a flame like some other answers to my topic.
      It's also considerably easier to insulate against cold than it is against heat.

      But wait a minute, isn't it the same problem ? When you need to cool the place you need to prevent cold air to go out. When you need heating you need to prevent cold air to go in, right ? I hardly see the difference. I'm ok that it's harder to cool than to heat but are you sure it's a so big difference ?

      Look at that. Do you think the difference between heating and cooling does explain that ?

      The US has to provide power to roughly 5x the number of people on roughly 20x the amount of land.

      Yup, but there are some big spaces uninhabited like in Texas for instance. I'm looking for statistics about percentage of people living in cities because I think France has much more small villages isolated than US. I'll try to find that kind of statistics and post it.

      Take a look at Russia, the Ukraine, China, India, or any other large, geographically diverse country. How much of it is wired?

      Unlike USA, those countries can't really afford it...

      France doesn't have to deal with a lot of the issues that the US does. Like ants that will happily chew through electrical insulation (fire ants in the SE US; between that and clay soil it makes burying cable extremely expensive)? No permafrost either. Tornados? Hurricanes? Nope.

      I didn't know about the ants. I've read a book where the author explains that ants rule the world... BTW, we have some strong thunderstorm in France and some flooding too but our electricity grid uses redundant connections much more than the American power grid so it's rare that we have a problem.
      But we have some of the cheapest power in the world, and the cost of power is a baseline for everything else in the economy. It's one of the key reasons that we have such a strong economy, and have had one since the advent of industrialization.
      I agree on this but what's the point to have cheap power if it fails ? I mean I think you will have more and more problems in the future if you don't upgrade your power grid.

      Thanks
    56. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      Actually, "right to sell" is not "right to speak".

    57. Re:Now we know... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      Since I arrived 6 months ago: none in Florida.

      What part of Florida do you live in?

    58. Re:Now we know... by jalet · · Score: 1

      > Flame me if you want but France is known to have
      > one of the best electrical system in the world.

      They (we) don't have good transparence over what happens however. I don't think we would know if some nuclear problem happened, until too late. Just like when Chernobyl's clouds were magically stopped at our borders...

      --
      Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
    59. Re:Now we know... by Shakrai · · Score: 1
      In the seventies nobody looked at Saddam saying he was a threat.

      I know a couple of Israeli's and Iranians who would disagree with that statement.

      (Sorry to state the obvious)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    60. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      Today people from all over the world are saying that the second biggest threat to world's peace, after Israel, is the USA.

      Of course everybody is wrong and you are right because god is telling you that you are right.

    61. Re:Now we know... by oni · · Score: 1

      Simple scientific method-approach to a problem. A Problem exists. If you cannot logically derive the solution beforehand, you try Solution A. If, given adequate time, Solution A fails to solve the problem, you move on to Solution B.

      hey you know what, I make the exact same argument for school vouchers and nobody every listens to me! I'm glad you and I agree!

      I'm not talking about centrally socializing the entire grid or something.

      sounds good to me. I would just hope that if we did this we would start with a subsection of the country rather than trying to do the whole thing at once.

    62. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1

      That's another problem but I think you are right.

    63. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I challenge you to show me another country that has anywhere close to the same issues and is doing better than the US

      Look up north. Canada faces much worse condition and our power is reliable. We have a lot more snow and a much worse winter and everything works fine.

    64. Re:Now we know... by superflex · · Score: 1
      I've seen a house that has some PVC pipes and a solar cell on their garage roof, must be some solar water heating system. Every little bit helps.

      These are usually for heating your pool on the cheap. The big panels aren't actually solar cells, just dark panels (higher radiation absorption) with lots of little channels (higher surface area == better heat transfer) for the water to travel through and heat up. I helped install one on my uncle's roof a couple years ago.

      That being said, you're absolutely right, that every little bit does help, though somebody also might point out that a pool is a luxury item and still using up more electricity running the pump that pushes the water through the filters and up to the roof to be heated. :)

      --
      sigs are for suckers
    65. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The average citizen in France doesn't waste energy like the average American.


      Perhaps because the French don't shower as often and don't use shave their underarms? A penny saved is a penny earned.
    66. Re:Now we know... by Inuchance · · Score: 1

      Near future? Matrix Reloaded doesn't happen until sometime around the year 2199 (IIRC)...

    67. Re:Now we know... by Shakrai · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Today people from all over the world are saying that the second biggest threat to world's peace, after Israel, is the USA.

      Of course everybody is wrong and you are right because god is telling you that you are right.

      Umm. Fuck you. Sorry, it needs to be said. Let me say it again. Fuck you and your preconceptions about my country.

      Just so you know, I consider myself a spiritual person but I don't attend church. I'd hardly call myself a Christian. Organized religion usually offends me.

      BTW, I read that link in your sig. It makes some interesting points, most of which I disagree with. I'd be interested in refuting them for you, but I already started another thread about the anti-American attitudes that have started to grate on me. I think I'll limit myself to one of those per month. Besides, I doubt you'd listen to me anyway. Should you be interested in an intelligent, non "America sucks" debate, consider sending me a message on one of the numerous IM services that I have linked off my /. account.

      You'd have done so much better if you hadn't tossed in the "God" comment and lumped me (and all other Americans) into the category of the religious right (which is the minority in this country).

      Again, I'll say it. Fuck you. Fuck those who agree with you that will doubtless mod me down -- I needed to drop some karma anyway. You'd all be speaking German or Russian if it wasn't for us.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    68. Re:Now we know... by Kaboom13 · · Score: 1

      The army does just fine without power, you think they only fought when the lights were on in Irag? Not to mention most businesses shut down, so most large targets are empty. If you could manage to get a large bomb on the power supply, you would probably cause more damage using the bomb on a building. The real revelation is how New Yorkers (the ones they let whine on tv anyway) are apparently big cry babies. Losing power doesnt mean you have to sit in the dark incapable of action.

    69. Re:Now we know... by Listen+Up · · Score: 1

      To be more accurate, according http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/ the ratio of US production to imports at the end of 2002 is:

      350.4 million tons produced
      894.3 million tons consumed (imported)

      Interesting. Take a look at the world consumption numbers per capita. It will be incredibly interesting once China starts bypassing the US economically, technologically, and energy usage per capita. It is going to happen in our lifetime (most likely in the next 10-20 years, easily). 1.3 billion people and climbing is a lot of energy usage if growth is equal to or faster than US growth.

      Another point is that electrical heating is always going to be more efficient that gas heating. Simple laws of thermodynamics. Electrical heating is ~100% efficient. Gas can never be. The real determining factor is that electrical rates are, at times, more expensive than gas rates. But, since the electrical utility uses gas to create the electricity, the cost is the same either way, only hidden.

      The best solution is to use a residential geothermal heat pump system. Yes, it is completely electrical. But, the difference is that your power consumption from the electrical utility is level all year long. Good for the electrical utility (no need for peak plants that only run during the summer) and good for you (you can get reductions in electrical tariffs for having a constant base load and the electrical utility will have to buy less gas to make the electricity overall).

      The real problem was deregulation. Pure capitalism will always ensure that the cheapest route to profit will prevail. Therefore, the US energy problems will continue and will get worse. A more socialist attack at the problem, such as government regulation and controlled distribution, is the reason that so many foreign countries have such fantastic energy infrastructures.

    70. Re:Now we know... by superflex · · Score: 1
      I don't mean to sound arrogant, but you just don't understand how (a)nuclear stations or (b)the power grid operate.

      Nuclear reactors have a certain minimum output level that they have to sustain in order to maintain the fission chain reaction. If the station is putting out 500 MW onto the grid and demand suddenly cuts out (as it did during the blackout) the operators can't just turn the knob down to 2 MW and wait indefinitely. There's about a 30 minute window (for the CANDU reactors in question, used at Pickering, Darlington, and Bruce nuclear stations in Ontario) where the operators can lower output and then bring it back up if the grid comes back online. After that, the reactor is "poisoned" by the chemical byproducts produced during the low-power phase of operation and the reactor must be taken offline and undergo a 2-3 day purge cycle to remove the chemicals in question (I believe it's Xenon, or an isotope of it).

      As far as the power grid goes, do you think that the city of Pickering is directly connected to the nuclear station? Sadly that's not how they wire things up. Power from the generating stations is stepped up to transmission grid voltages (230 kV, 750 kV) and dumped onto that grid. Consumers in cities get their power off of smaller distribution grids downstream of the transmission grids, where the voltage is stepped down to lower, less dangerous levels. This is the architecture of the system. There are good reasons why it is designed that way.

      Furthermore, CANDU reactors are well-recognized as some of the safest nuclear reactor designs in the world, and the probability of a catastrophic release of nuclear material is miniscule. As someone who grew up in between the Pickering and Darlington nuclear stations, I regularly got to see the public service announcements in the local paper which always showed that a person living less than a kilometre from one of the stations gets an additional annual dose of radiation less than what is received from a chest x-ray. Your incremental annual dose of radiation goes up about 1-2% compared to what anyone on the planet is exposed to through normal background radiation. This is right next door to the station. And I'm sure the city of Pickering derives a decent amount of economic benefit from having a power plant offering several hundred well-paying jobs.

      --
      sigs are for suckers
    71. Re:Now we know... by Quikah · · Score: 1

      Give me a fucking break, the Dixie Chicks, just like anyone else are free to go into Florida at anytime.

      --
      Q.
    72. Re:Now we know... by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      You're not flaming, you're making rational discussion. It would be uncouth of me to flame you back just because we disagree :)

      When you need heating you need to prevent cold air to go in, right

      Largely, but thermal radiation plays a bigger part in heating than in cooling as I understand it (and my understanding is far from perfect). Which is why doing things like using radiant barriers and white roofs help much more for reducing cooling costs than heating. The sun is going to be adding to your heat load regardless of how much insulation you put on your house. There's radiative cooling as well, of course, but in terms of watts per square meter it's just not as large in most climates (the more polar the climate the more it's an issue, obviously).

      Of course, on a cost basis you're still better off with insulation than radiant barriers. They're not magic.

      Look at that. Do you think the difference between heating and cooling does explain that ?

      If you look at it per capita it becomes much more interesting (and looking at it as a raw number is useless... per capita doesn't show the whole picture either though). Realize that some of the countries (like the Northern European countries) are high because they are exceptionally low on the oil/natural gas consumption scale -- they have ready sources of electricity (mostly hydroelectric, Iceland also has geothermal) which are non-polluting and inexpensive to maintain. Even though Norway produces immense amounts of oil (3rd largest exporter in the world), it's smarter for them to sell it on the world market and use electricity to heat their homes.

      Yes, the US consumes twice as much electrical power as France. We also have considerably more heavy industry. But I would agree that the US consumes more electrical power than is necessary. The US is behind in conservation, plain and simple. A lot of the "innovations" that are recent to the US have been in Europe for a decade or more. But it's still not as bad as some would have you believe -- the US is clearly not consuming vastly more electricity per capita than anyone else in the world. And none of this is factoring in manufacturing capability, which the US has more of than anyone else. Making stuff takes power.

      Nifty site BTW. It's broken in some areas (look at Natural Gas consumption stats -- billions of cubic feet is not bigger than trllion [sic] cubic feet), but much easier to use for comparison purposes than the CIA World Factbook.

      If we want to be fair we have to look at overall power production and consumption rates. Those are difficult to aggregate properly since you would have to seperate fuels used for electrical generation from those used for heating or other purposes. Looking at natural gas consumption, for instance, is deceptive since the US uses it for both heating and electrical generation.

      I agree on this but what's the point to have cheap power if it fails ?

      It really doesn't fail all that much though. The NE blackout was a rather exceptional condition, as was the Northern Italy blackout (which I know France was not responsible for). The California rolling blackouts have turned out to be entirely the fault of a corrupt utility company. And while there are sporadic power outages all the time, there's really not much you can do against tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, or other natural disasters/occurances that cause the power outage. I can't recall the last time I had a power outage that wasn't directly tied to one of these.

      I mean I think you will have more and more problems in the future if you don't upgrade your power grid.

      I agree completely. And both the government and private corporations are to blame here. The Federal government has cut several bills to provide incentives or outright money toward power grid improvements. The state PSCs/PUCs have repeatedly denied rate hikes to address infrastructure issues. And the power companies are unwilling to reduce short term

    73. Re:Now we know... by tealover · · Score: 1

      That's a facile distinction.

      It is not commerce that is being restricted. It is the symbol or thought behind the commerce that is being constrained. To wit, if I wanted to give away Nazi memorabilia in Paris, that would also not be allowed.

      Whether you agree with that particular constrainment on the "right to speak" or think it is for the good of the people is irrelevant. Any constrainment on free speech or thought is just that -- a constrainment.

      I suggest that you cast a critical gaze on your own institutions which you hold so dearly before you casually cast aspersions on any other. It is the height of ignorance and hypocrisy to do otherwise.

      --
      -- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
    74. Re:Now we know... by caluml · · Score: 1
      a person living less than a kilometre from one of the stations gets an additional annual dose of radiation less than what is received from a chest x-ray.

      I'm sure that's what they tell you....
      Me, I'd buy a Geiger counter pretty quickly. Government FUD? They're full of it.

    75. Re:Now we know... by zeux · · Score: 1
      You're not flaming, you're making rational discussion. It would be uncouth of me to flame you back just because we disagree :)
      ;)
      Largely, but thermal radiation plays a bigger part in heating than in cooling as I understand it (and my understanding is far from perfect).

      I have to agree because I don't have a real understanding in thermal radiation. But I would also point out that you are not cooling everywhere in the US. I mean Alaska and Montana don't need A/C, do they ?

      I've heard something recently on french TV, a guy saying that France is 20 years late in A/C equipment. The disaster we had this summer confirms this. Hopefully this will change in the future but our government helps people who wants to make their housing more insolated financially (tax cuts, etc). Do you have something like that here ?

      If you look at it per capita it becomes much more interesting (and looking at it as a raw number is useless... per capita doesn't show the whole picture either though).

      Yes I should have done that, my example was irrevelant and per capita is much better. I just did mentally the maths because I know we are 60 millions in France and you are between 280 and 300 millions in USA.

      Making stuff takes power.

      Agree. So let's say that Americans do use more 'stuff' than needed, is it accurate ? I'm talking about marketing and 'disposable' stuff.

      Nifty site BTW. It's broken in some areas (look at Natural Gas consumption stats -- billions of cubic feet is not bigger than trllion [sic] cubic feet), but much easier to use for comparison purposes than the CIA World Factbook.

      Yes I like it even if there are some bugs. I don't really trust any data from CIA.

      Looking at natural gas consumption, for instance, is deceptive since the US uses it for both heating and electrical generation.

      Yes, of course, in France 80% of electrical power comes from nuclear. Oil is so expensive in France that is not a competitive power source. But many Europeans regret that USA didn't accept the Kyoto treaty and that americans are wasting gas on inefficient SUVs.

      Ok, I admit, it's maybe jealousy because since I lived in Florida I have to admit that it's actually 'cool' to have a big SUV. Am I American-alized ?

      And while there are sporadic power outages all the time, there's really not much you can do against tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, or other natural disasters/occurances that cause the power outage.

      Redundancy is the key. We had a very bad thunderstorm back in 1999 in France. Thanks to the redundancy of our lines only a few people had an outage lasting more than 1 hour. And believe me it was a very bad thunderstorm. Tens of millions of trees fell at that occasion.

      Also the overall 'quality' is better. We have virtually no micro-outage (that really kill computers). I lived in 3 different places here in Florida and I'm not kidding there are plenty of them here. Maybe you are just used to, but I'm certainly not. I think I'm gonna have to buy a power back up.

      And the power companies are unwilling to reduce short term profits in order to solve the long term issues.

      Yup the point of my post in fact, I'm not sure that monopoly private companies are the best choice for energy management.

      Thanks for your answer.
    76. Re:Now we know... by coupland · · Score: 2, Funny

      Anyway, it's still unacceptable that such things happens in the most powerful country in the world.

      What, Canada? Don't say such things, we're really very shy.

      The government owns it and some laws do protect the costumer.

      Wow that's some country, laws to protect costumers no less. What about mimes and jugglers?

      When I arrived in the USA I was shocked by the poor quality of your electric system

      Well, you're definitely French, I'll grant ya that.

    77. Re:Now we know... by llefler · · Score: 1

      I'd support nuclear power, but I won't support drilling in ANWR. National Wildlife Refuge. Take your drills someplace else. I wouldn't shed a tear if the whole petroleum industry became obsolete.

      The fact is; people are afraid of nuclear because they are uninformed, they don't like that it's more expensive than coal or oil, and the government really hasn't done a good job of providing options for disposing of nuclear waste.

      BTW, I live about 100 miles from a nuclear reactor. Wolf Creek. It appears they are currently idle while being refueled.

      --
      It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
    78. Re:Now we know... by mad+flyer · · Score: 0

      REMEMBER ONE THING:

      Freedom of one stop where start the freedom of others.
      That's why Nazy memorabilia is forbidden in France and Germany.

      There was a CLEAR violation of liberties by the Nazies thus allowing promotion of their ideas is a CLEAR violation of people rights (for example the right for the jews to stay alove)

    79. Re:Now we know... by mad+flyer · · Score: 0

      Maybe we are late on air cooling... but we need it once every... 25 years... There was a really hot summer in 1976, now one in 2003. And as you said, isolation (and central heating) is common place in France, the first one works against cold and also against heat. Not like here in japan where flat have big single glass windows that let humidity and heat goes inside in summer (no external blinder so without air cooling you die) and the cold and wind in winter, where everyone use small portable oil heaters even in modern building. It's really a third world country where people drive Mercedes 600.

      Peut etre sommes nous en retard pour l'air-conditionne. Mais il ne nous est necessaire qu'une fois tous les 25 ans... Il y eut un ete tres chaud en 1976, puis maintenant un autre en 2003. Comme vous l'avez dit l'isolation (et le chauffage central) est commun en France. Le premier est efficace contre le froid comme contre le chaud. A la difference d'ici au japon ou les appartement ont de grande baie vitree, qui laissent rentrer l'humidite et la chaleur en ete (il n'y a pas de volets exterieurs, donc sans climatisation la situation est intenanble) et froid et vent en hiver, ou tout le monde utilise des petits radiateur au fuel meme dans les immeubles recents. C'est vraiment juste un pays du tiers monde ou l'on a donne au gens des Merco 600 a conduire pour les convaincres qu'ils sont heureux.

    80. Re:Now we know... by mad+flyer · · Score: 0

      Sure, the only kewl bashing on the intarweb is the French bashing. Don't tuch holey america.

      BTW, unlike americans who know only 1 language, or less for the rednecks, in France we also speak english, German and now more and more Russian.

    81. Re:Now we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because in France dumbasses never cut through power lines when operating heavy equipment.

    82. Re:Now we know... by Shakrai · · Score: 1
      Sure, the only kewl bashing on the intarweb is the French bashing. Don't tuch holey america.

      BTW, unlike americans who know only 1 language, or less for the rednecks, in France we also speak english, German and now more and more Russian.

      Again, stop stereotyping Americans. I'm getting sick and fucking tired of it. I happen to speak English and Spanish fluently. I'm also taking courses in Greek as a friend of mine stands a good chance of going to the games in Athens next year, and if she makes it, I will be going with her.

      And I didn't bash France. I got pissed at how he bashed America ("You aren't wrong because God tells you that you are right"), thus placing all Americans in the lot of the religious right. At least when we call you cheese-eating surrender monkeys we have a historical precedent for doing so. Have the French won a war in the 20th century without outside help? Let's see here.... WW1... needed the Brits and Americans to save them... WW2 surrendered to Germany (how well did the Maginot line work out?).... Algeria... defeated... Indo-China/Vietnam.... defeated... Suez.... defeated. And that list doesn't even talk about French military defeats in the 19th century.

      Sorry to stoop to that level, but I'm sick and tired of the anti-Americanism around here. Whatever informed/educated opinions or legitimate beefs you might have with us are drowned out by the idiots who bash America even though they have never been here, don't know anything about our history, and hate our culture. Mod me down if you want -- at least I had the guts not to post this as AC.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  14. UNIX versus Windows by Brahmastra · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    With UNIX, you get a long power cut once in a few years. With Windows, you'll have a 5 minute power cut to reboot the servers, every 1 hour. You pick

    1. Re:UNIX versus Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is, it shouldn't happen. AT ALL. I don't care if it happens a jagillion times less with Unix, if it happens it's once too many.

      Stupid slashdrones.

    2. Re:UNIX versus Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buttbrain mods. UNIX is mentioned in the story. Turds

  15. Kucinich was on top of First Energy by randall_burns · · Score: 1

    First Energy has been a major concern of Congressman Kucinich for a while now. There is a long standing feud between Kucinich and First Energy-at this point it looks like Dennis was right about these folks.

    1. Re:Kucinich was on top of First Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a resident of the Cleveland area, and one of the more interesting statistics is that after the power outage the municipal power companies had restored power roughly 8 hours before FirstEnergy had. In fact, the muni in the town I live in had power back on in less than an hour, so it took me turning on the news to figure out how massive the blackout was. And this was around 20 miles away from where the whole mess started.

      In other words, public control of utilities worked wonders. (Oh, and the prices are lower for municipal power as well.)

  16. Disaster again by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 4, Funny

    If I remember correctly wasn't a "Unix system" also implicated in the chaotic havoc that was Jurassic Park?

    1. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hey, this is UNIX. I know this!"

    2. Re:Disaster again by Enry · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, just bad writing. Ugh.

    3. Re:Disaster again by DenOfEarth · · Score: 1

      Yeh, it was, that's right...but I think the chaotic havoc was caused by the guy with the taste for snacks, and a little bit of corporate espionage. Speaking of it though, what the hell was the file manager they were running anyways?? I remember that it looked kind of neat but seemed really slow and unresponsive (I just know that my dinosaur parks' servers would be running in CLI mode only).

      It's a classic case of human error, not computer.

    4. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it was a lame-ass plot device (and not /dev/plot).

    5. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually, they were SGI systems running Irix, intermixed with Powermacs.

      The GUI they used is available for download, I believe it was a /. article about a year ago... It was a tried-and-failed approach to 3D filesystem navigation.

      The 'joke' interface for the magic word appeared to be running on MacOS, I would guess 7.

    6. Re:Disaster again by arkanes · · Score: 1

      The file manager is a fancy thing that SGI cooked up for demos many moons ago. I forget the name, but I'm sure you could find it if you looked. It is an actual working file manager, though.

    7. Re:Disaster again by Accipiter · · Score: 1

      Bad writing? How's that?

      --

      -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
      (If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't. :P)

    8. Re:Disaster again by Enry · · Score: 1

      It's been a while since I read Jurassic Park, but I seem to remember a lot of "chaos will find a way" statements by Jeff Goldblum's character (Ian Malcolm).

      There's one thing to have foreshadowing clues (Asimov, for example) and another to leave them scattered all over the place so that not only do you keep tripping over them, you eventually fall and get hurt. That's just bad writing.

    9. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'joke' interface for the magic word appeared to be running on MacOS, I would guess 7.

      It very well might have been A/UX.

    10. Re:Disaster again by mcc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, but the Unix systems were running the now-widely-discredited "AH AH AH YOU DIDN'T SAY THE MAGIC WORD" security system product.

      It was a third-party-application issue, not an OS issue. Unix itself is not to blame.

    11. Re:Disaster again by RobertB-DC · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly wasn't a "Unix system" also implicated in the chaotic havoc that was Jurassic Park?

      I thought it was interesting when they name-dropped an actual OS in the movie. Though the way the kid said it was more like "Its a uniquesss... system." I wonder if the non-programmer community heard it as anything other than gobbledygook?

      Not nearly as cool as Trinity's use of a real hacker tool in the second Matrix flick. For once, the filmmakers knew more than me about some aspect of computers! Cool!

      --
      Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    12. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The program is called FSN ('fusion') by SGI. They still have it on their servers at www.sgi.com/fun/freeware/3d_navigator.html . Also check out FSV for *nixes other than Irix.

    13. Re:Disaster again by caluml · · Score: 1

      I believe there is a patch for Pam for this.

    14. Re:Disaster again by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      It was a third-party-application issue, not an OS issue. Unix itself is not to blame.

      Same thing with the aircraft carrier that was running NT - it was the third party application running on top of the database that was to blame. The OS didn't even crash; the app stopped responding until you changed a field back to a valid number.

      Yet you still hear people claiming that Windows took down a Navy boat.

      Funny how people start whining when the same tactics they use against others are used against their OS.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    15. Re:Disaster again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it was "nature finds a way." which is completely accurate.

  17. Two possible outcomes, two possible responses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was a unix box: "Stupid admin"
    It was a microsoft box: "OMG M$ SUXORS!"

    1. Re:Two possible outcomes, two possible responses by Greased_Yoda · · Score: 0

      Truth hurts, huh?

  18. I told you so by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 1

    According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows."

    I told you to switch to windows. Call 1-800-SELLURSOUL now! Our operators are standing by. Except during their hourly reboot that is.

  19. X Window System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or X11 or X11R6.

  20. X Windows? by MandoSKippy · · Score: 1

    Ah yes, using X Windows, that way, people who don't the time will associate the "failure" with something having to do with "Windows" Yea, start the flames now. IT was a Unix box... thats the all that needed to be said.

    A Unix box with X Windows Changes to

    A box with X Windows Changes to

    A Box with XP Windows or perhaps

    just a Box with Windows...

    It will get lost in the translation somewhere....

  21. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice flamebait. The antithesis is actually support by the facts in this case.

  22. Report vindicates First Energy by gordguide · · Score: 2, Funny

    In a press release First Energy spokesmen said that the report "totally vindicates us" and the blame "clearly lies with the uncontrolled and inherently dangerous actions of something called 'trees'. We are calling on Government Agencies to immediately ban the use, propegation, and distribution" of all trees, which "apparently reproduce unaided" by some "poorly understood virus-like activity".

    From CNN Money's link:
    " ... He noted that Ohio-based FirstEnergy (FE: Research, Estimates)'s failure to trim trees growing alongside major transmission lines contributed to the massive blackout. ..."

    1. Re:Report vindicates First Energy by erwin · · Score: 1

      If only the tree defense would excuse their shoddy maintenance on their nuclear plant. they let a slow boric acid drip eat almost all they way through the reactor cap.

      makes me wonder what their sys-admin policies are, too...

    2. Re:Report vindicates First Energy by Melantha_Bacchae · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yep, Ohio's infamous Hole-In-The-Head reactor was First Energy's baby. Enough primary coolant (the stuff that cools the rods and glows a pretty blue around them from the radiation) was leaking out the top of the reactor head to eat a hole big enough to put a gallon milk jug through. The only thing between America and Chernobyl was a one-sixteenth inch thick stainless steel plate on the outside. Enough coolant did make its way to the outside that the top had to be wiped off periodically. This went on for six years, with several bungled inspections failing to catch it, and a cover up to attempt to let First Energy to continue running the thing. First Energy was still trying to get the government to let them patch and restart it when the blackout happened.

      Funny thing about the blackout: nuclear plants and dirty fossil fuel plants were affected. Clean plants, like the Niagara Falls hydroelectric plant, blinked, then went right on running.

      Another funny thing about the blackout: five days before the lights went out, "Godzilla X Megagiras" had had its US premiere at the Egyptian Theatre. In this movie, Godzilla's attacks on nuclear plants cause Japan to ban all nuclear energy and look to clean energy. The bad guy keeps building fusion plants (fobbing them off as "clean energy"), but they always leak radiation, and Godzilla always finds them and knocks their lights out.

      You might want to stock up on flashlights. "Godzilla X Megagiras" is coming out on DVD in the US January 6th.

      "Is Godzilla showing his hatred toward man-made energy?"
      Shinoda, "Godzilla 2000 Millennium" (Japanese version)

  23. Where's Microsoft? by green+pizza · · Score: 1

    I can just see good ol Steve and Bill "coming to the rescue" with an NT based solution. The press would love it, "Microsoft replaces aging UNIX system".

    Ugh.

    Seriously, though, the failure of a SCADA system **SHOULD NOT** bring down the grid. This is just passing the buck.

    1. Re:Where's Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, though, the failure of a SCADA system **SHOULD NOT** bring down the grid. This is just passing the buck.

      It didn't! It's just a monitoring system, the grid failed for other reasons. It was just really, really bad timing. If the monitoring system hadn't failed (or if someone had realized that it had failed) operators would've seen when the first transmission line failed. If they had, they might have been able to reroute power and distribute it evenly between the remaining lines so they hadn't failed. Noone will ever know..

  24. Re: money for u by orthogonal · · Score: 1

    Click here to enter the GOLDEN BET ONLINE CASINO !

    Let's all wget that link at 2:00 pm EST, and see how the spammer's server handles a Slashdoting.

  25. Offtopic/Flame by lcde · · Score: 0, Redundant

    According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows. Some times I think slashdot instigates the flame wars.

    --
    :%s/teh/the/g
  26. Denies? not really by gclef · · Score: 1

    It's interesting to read the First Energy "denial." It's not really a denial, more of a "yeah, we had a problem, but hey! look over there!" Honestly, it reads like an attempt to distract, rather than deny. For instance:

    "We recognize that our computer system experienced problems that day, which we discussed publicly immediately following the outage."

    Is followed a paragraph later by:

    "By focusing its analysis on a few selected events, the conclusions the Task Force reached don't address the complexity and magnitude of operations on the interconnected grid."

    Translation: yeah, we had a problem, but the fact that our problem could take down the whole grid isn't our fault. Honestly, it sounds like a pretty stupid excuse, but then, that's just my reading of it.

  27. Aha, it was a UNIX system! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now we all know why SCO needs bodyguards.

  28. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Skipping Econ 101 to post on slashdot again? shame on you!

  29. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

    The same kind of problems happen in systems that are unregulated, because private power companies have no financial motiviation to keep their systems modern, and no motiviation to build the sorts of multiple redundancies that are clearly needed.

    Though the govt sucks too. Damned if we do, damned if we dont.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  30. Not the first time... by shakamojo · · Score: 1

    Are these cascading failures becoming the status-quo for America? Is apathy the new buzzword in corporate circles? How is it possible for this domino effect to occur on something as critical as a power grid?! You'd think that systems like these would have a better QoS system in place, especially with the "impending threat of terrorism" that we've been on about lately...

  31. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by DenOfEarth · · Score: 1

    Give it a break will ya...accidents happen. Capitalists stub their toes just as friggin much as socialists do, only when capitalists stub their toes, they blame government for it, and when socialists stub their toes, they blame the lack of government mandates requiring soft fuzzy stripes on the bottom two inches of every wall in the country.

    Don't get me wrong, I am definitely much more in favour of less government regulation in all sorts of things, but accidents will still happen, regardless of market forces, and / or lack thereof.

  32. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This only happened after government DEREGULATED the power system. Democrats had been trying to pass a bill to force the power systems to be upgraded (because the deregulated companies were too cheap to do so) saying that this was going to happen any day now--and of course, Pres. Bush was told by his corporate advisors that nothing would happen and this was just a pork barrel bill.

  33. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by sporty · · Score: 1

    no... you know that power companies sell each other electricity. Heck, electric companies will buy electricity from those that produce. Think wind energy and lots of fields.

    This isn't a case of stupidity of the gov't. It's probably stupidity of not testing their systems periodically for failover. And not the entire grid testing for failover, which would be ideal, but just one company. Or so says the report ..

    -s

    --

    -
    ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

  34. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by copponex · · Score: 1

    This would not have happened in a market unencumbered by overzealous regulations and socialist mindsets

    Then do something about it. Name-calling slashdot readers isn't going to start any sort of political discussion. However, it will make you look like a dumbass.

  35. The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    GE's XA/21 system "controls generation and the high voltage transmission network for optimal generation and transmission of power," as provided on GE's corporate web site:

    http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/scada_ so ftware/en/xa21.htm

    On page 99 of the report the task force states specifically that,"although there were a number of worms and viruses impacting theInternet and Internet-connected systems and networks in North America before and during the outage, the SWG's preliminary analysis provides no indication that worm/virus activity had a significant effect on the power generation and delivery systems."In other words, the power generation and delivery systems (GE's XA/21) running Unix were not affected. SCADA, the alarm monitoring system, however, was affected. SCADA failedto transmit alarm conditions the the monitoring workstations because the Windows platform it was running on was under a denial of service attack. The net result is that the operators were not aware of serious trouble with the grid before it was to late.

    1. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Troed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mod parent up. Windows/Blaster WAS one of the causes of the blackout, something that has been known for quite some time. Nice to see official confirmation. The submitter has taken too much SCO crack me thinks.

      SCADA failed to transmit alarm conditions the the monitoring workstations because the Windows platform it was running on was under a denial of service attack.

    2. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by phorm · · Score: 1

      So if SCADA was downed by a DDOS, was it intentional or just part of general internet traffic. Even with heavy internet loads, none of my internal network was affected either at work or home. If these machines needed to be connected to the internet (why), wouldn't a seperation from the outside be pertinent, and perhaps a redundant internal system.

      I mean, were these machines on live IP's, or were they just dependant on the 'net for communication instead of a local infrastructure?

    3. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      As quoted in the Yahoo! news wire here:

      "Not only did the software that controls audible and visual alarms stopworking at 2:14 p.m. EDT, but about a half hour later, two servers supporting the emergency system failed, too. More than an hour would pass after that before anyone in FirstEnergy's control room would realize that the software -- General Electric's GE Harris XA21 system --wasn't working."

      You know why the XA/21 "wasn't working?" Here's why:

      A close inspection of the time lines presented on pages 22 and 23 of the DOE report reveals that the Emergency Management System alarm functions (SCADA) first fails at 14:14 EDT. These alarm monitoring systems are the computers running on the Windows Servers.

      14:20 EDT: FirstElectric loses half their remote consoles as the wormspreads.

      14:41 EDT: the Primary EMS server (the Windows Primary Domain Controllerrunning SADA) fails.14:54 EDT: the backup EMS server (the Backup Domain Controller) serverfails.

      15:08 EDT: FE primary EMS Server Restarts.

      15:46 - 15:59 EDT: FE IT rebooting H4,H1 (GE XA/21)

      Take a look from the same article:

      "FirstEnergy's information technology staff belatedly became aware ofthe problem and tried to fix it. In fact, they thought they had shortly after 3 p.m. -- at which point two of the three power lines had already tripped. "Just as you may have to reboot your desktop computer, which often curescomputing problems, that's what they did," said Jimmy Glotfelty, amember of the government task force that investigated the blackout." They had the indication that they fixed the alarm problem, but that was erroneous."

      "They did not adequately test the system after the reboot to be surethey had fixed it," said David Meyer, another task force member."

      So it appears that after the Primary EMS server restarted at 15:08, they looked at the SCADA software on the system and found that it seemed to be working correctly, that is, the PDC system running SCADA came up and communicated with the XA/21 system shortly before the DDOS attacked the PDC all over again. Given that I have seen a down PDC freeze a BDC (usually while the BDC is updating itself with the primary server) I think they said, "we'll worry about the BDC later, we have bigger fish to fry."

      So what do they do? It appears that they rebooted the XA/21! Here we have a DDOS on the NT alarm monitoring server and they decide to bounce the XA/21! Worse, it apears the technicians rebooted the XA/21 without even so much as performing an analysis on the XA/21 or--and this is a fact as well as a big"no-no"--telling the control staff monitoring the grid that they were doing it.

    4. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      A close inspection of the time lines presented on pages 22 and 23 of the DOE report reveals that the Emergency Management System alarm functions (SCADA) first fails at 14:14 EDT. These alarm monitoring systems are the computers running on the Windows Servers

      And the reference to this in the paper itself is... where precisely?

      Your conclusion is completely unsupported by the data in the paper. The paper's only reference to the operating system used in the SCADA system at that plant is to a GE XA/21 system running... UNIX.

      Presumably you got all of his information re: the operating systems in use from the Computerworld article. Unfortunately, they make the assumption that the SCADA system is Windows based. In this case, it wasn't. It was entirely UNIX based.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    5. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spectecjr:

      And the reference to this in the paper itself is... where precisely?

      Your conclusion is completely unsupported by the data in the paper. The paper's only reference to the operating system used in the SCADA system at that plant is to a GE XA/21 system running... UNIX.


      Answer:

      We have several clues. For example, on page 94 of the DOE report it states: "Many malicious code attacks, by their very nature, are unbiased and tend to interfere with operations supported by vulnerable applications. One such incident occurred on January 2003, when the "Slammer" Internet worm took down monitoring computers at FirstEnergy Corporation's idled Davis-Besse nuclear plant. A subsequent report by the North American Electric Reliability Council (NERC) concluded that, although it caused no outages, the infection blocked command that operated other powerutilities."

      Now why would they make reference to the "Slammer" worm if we're talking about Unix?

      See this link for more clues.

      Spectecjr:

      Presumably you got all of his information re: the operating systems in use from the Computerworld article. Unfortunately, they make the assumption that the SCADA system is Windows based. In this case, it wasn't. It was entirely UNIX based.

      Answer: How can you say that? Consider from the ComputerWeek article:

      "Carol Murphy, vice president of government affairs at the New York Independent System Operator, acknowledged that Blaster affected the utility but said the problem was handled quickly, with no impact on power restoration operations. Joe Petta, a spokesman for Consolidated Edison Company of New York Inc., said there were "absolutely no computer-related problems of any sort that delayed our restoration effort."

      I am sure the Slashdot community welcomes your references concerning your assersion that the SADA software running the alarm control system was Unix based.

    6. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by spectecjr · · Score: 1
      We have several clues. For example, on page 94 of the DOE report it states: "Many malicious code attacks, by their very nature, are unbiased and tend to interfere with operations supported by vulnerable applications. One such incident occurred on January 2003, when the "Slammer" Internet worm took down monitoring computers at FirstEnergy Corporation's idled Davis-Besse nuclear plant. A subsequent report by the North American Electric Reliability Council (NERC) concluded that, although it caused no outages, the infection blocked command that operated other powerutilities."

      Now why would they make reference to the "Slammer" worm if we're talking about Unix?

      See this link for more clues.


      The link you provided is to the same kind of baseless supposition that the poster I responded to made.

      And on page 99, they state:

      "Although there were a number of worms and
      viruses impacting the Internet and Internetconnected
      systems and networks in North America
      before and during the outage, the SWG's preliminary
      analysis provides no indication that
      worm/virus activity had a significant effect on the
      power generation and delivery systems.
      Further
      SWG analysis will test this finding.
      SWG analysis to date suggests that failure of a software
      program-not linked to malicious activity-
      may have contributed significantly to the
      power outage of August 14, 2003. Specifically, key
      personnel may not have been aware of the need to
      take preventive measures at critical times, because
      an alarm system was malfunctioning."


      They mention the Slammer worm because there was a worm attacking systems attached to the 'net at the time, and they need to rule it out. It's referenced because that specific circumstance caused problems one time previously. That doesn't mean it caused them this time.

      Answer: How can you say that? Consider from the ComputerWeek article:

      "Carol Murphy, vice president of government affairs at the New York Independent System Operator, acknowledged that Blaster affected the utility but said the problem was handled quickly, with no impact on power restoration operations. Joe Petta, a spokesman for Consolidated Edison Company of New York Inc., said there were "absolutely no computer-related problems of any sort that delayed our restoration effort."


      That isn't the utility plant that had the problem though. The blackout was caused by FE, not ConEd.

      I am sure the Slashdot community welcomes your references concerning your assersion that the SADA software running the alarm control system was Unix based.

      The report clearly states that the GE Harris XA/21 system was the one that failed first. That's running UNIX. Look at their website.

      BTW: I'm sure the Slashdot community would welcome you actually using links that refer to the topic at hand, instead of to other power companies and problems.
      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    7. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The DOE report specifies two separate systems:

      1) The power generation and delivery system 2) The alarm control system.

      You quoted in your post from the DOE report that, "...the SWG's preliminary analysis provides no indication that worm/virus activity had a significant effect on the power generation and delivery systems."

      The report is exactly correct. virus/worm activity did not affect the power and generation delivery system. The power generation and delivery system is the XA/21 running on the Unix platform.

      The alarm control system, on the other hand, is a SCADA system almost certainly running on NT based on outside reports.

      The assertion that the Unix system went down first is patently false. Half the FE remote consoles lost functionality at 14:20 EDT and the "primary Emergency Management Server (EMS) lost functionality at 14:41 EDT; long before the technical staff rebooted the XA/21 between 15:46 - 15:59 EDT.

    8. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      The alarm control system, on the other hand, is a SCADA system almost certainly running on NT based on outside reports.

      I'll wait for the official report from CERT and the ESWG, not rampant speculation from journalists with agendas to push.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    9. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a journalist, and I don't have an agenda to push.

    10. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      I'm not a journalist, and I don't have an agenda to push.

      No, but your the sources you've quoted so far are journalists with agendas to push. Remember when the Columbia crashed? Same kind of deal. Wait for the official inquiry.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    11. Re:The XA/21 Did Not Break Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but your the sources you've quoted so far are journalists with agendas to push.

      You mean like the DOE's report? And, anyway, how do you know whom is trying to push what? Are you an expert? Have you asked them?

  36. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by randall_burns · · Score: 1
    According to Frank Knight of U of Chicago, it takes about 20 players in a market for there to be a really "Free" market. That generally just doesn't happen with power utilities.


    What I would want to see here is a country by country and region by region comparison of how power utilities work in various dimensions. Enron for example was a disaster, a corrupt organizations systematically attempting to defraud the public-and Enron as sold originally as a more "free market" solution.


    My guess here is that there are good examples of public utilities working--and better market based solutions than Enron.

  37. No, Sue the End User (or at least the analyst)! by FreeUser · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Good, let's sue SCO!

    heh! :-)

    Alas, as Microsoft apologists are wont to point out (even in the many cases where the crash or security flaw doesn't stem from mismanagement or configuration errors), a misconfigured system ins't going to work regardless of what OS it is running.

    In this particular case, quoth the article

    One of MISO's monitoring systems required technical repairs that afternoon, but the technician who fixed it forgot to turn on an automatic feature that updated information every five minutes, preventing it from operating normally, the report said. "Thinking the system had been successfully restored, the analyst went to lunch."


    The technician forgot to restart the monitoring software. Oops.

    Following in $CO's illustrious footsteps, I think perhaps it is time we sued the poor schmuck who forgot to restart the monitoring program. Or better yet, the company dumb enough to hire him, the electrical company. After all, according to Our Lord and Master Darl McBride, End Users should pay (and pay heavilly).
    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:No, Sue the End User (or at least the analyst)! by MrResistor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I can't help but think, if the process has to be started by someone, it isn't automatic, is it? And if it's so damned important, why wasn't it started automatically?

      Seems to me the stupidity predates the technician.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    2. Re:No, Sue the End User (or at least the analyst)! by FreeUser · · Score: 1

      I can't help but think, if the process has to be started by someone, it isn't automatic, is it? And if it's so damned important, why wasn't it started automatically?

      Seems to me the stupidity predates the technician.


      I'd have to agree with you there.

      If it was a decent UNIX system it would almost certainly have cron capabilities, and the job should have been cronned up. Unless of course the application was written poorly (e.g. back and front-end in one application that includes an X gui component and was therefor unamenable to cron) ... or the UNIX system was so crippled as to not have cron, and the company's policies so defunct and crippling as to disallow downloading any of the numerous free and portable cron alternatives (or the platform so obscure it isn't supported ... $CO, perhaps?)

      It was obviously legacy in any event, and poorly implemented, at whatever level.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    3. Re:No, Sue the End User (or at least the analyst)! by aridhol · · Score: 1

      The process happens at 5-minute intervals. It's possible that this could interfere with what the tech was doing. It could, therefore, be standard policy to disable the update before reconfiguring the settings.

      --
      I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
    4. Re:No, Sue the End User (or at least the analyst)! by Vip · · Score: 1

      As one who has been one of those "poor schmucks", the problem rarely lies with the technician sent onsite to repair the computer.

      Once cause of hardware fault has been determined, appropriate part has been replaced and computer restarted, it is up to the administrator to say, "Yup, this thing is fine now, let's all go home."

      It was up to the admin to determine that all processes that are supposed to be running are
      running.

      It was up to the admin to verify that the monitoring equipment was actually getting reasonable data and/or get someone to do it.

      It was up to the admin to go through his startup checklist (and hey, on such an important system they do maintain a checklist, right?) and say everything has been checked off.

      Some don't. Nope, a quick "ps -ef" with a couple of screens of info flying by, and then, "Yup, it's done." Even pushing to inquire and saying, "I can stay here to help if you want," will still get you a, "Nah, go home."

      I will say I have met and had the pleasure of working with many who actually do spend time
      checking, double checking, handing off to co-worker to check again, and then to the apps and/or database person, then waiting for the director to say, "Yup, let's all go home."
      This is the norm on critical machines, not the exception, thankfully.

      Vip

  38. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by eddie+can+read · · Score: 1

    The same kind of problems happen in systems that are unregulated, because private power companies have no financial motiviation

    Gotta disagree. People want reliability and they pay for reliability. If there were two power companies, and one of them was known for more frequent blackouts, then I would go with the other one. I chose my website hosting service in part because of their reliability (Pair Networks), and hosting services regularly advertise based on their reliability (up time). That's just an example from a familiar domain; it's generally true that people value reliability.

    And therefore companies do have an incentive to provide reliability.

  39. Hmmm...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I seem to recall not long after the blackout, there was a report that someone had managed to hack into First Energy's network and do "something" to a SCADA system--reported, of course, with all kinds of assurances that it was pure coincidence and had nothing to do with any failures.

    It also behooves us all to keep in mind the many comments and analyses that have pointed out that our current Enronesque energy policy, using interconnects for routine horse-trading of gigawatt-hours, had a lot to do with making a local failure into something much larger. These systems were simply never designed to be used in this manner. At one point, it was reported, tremoundous amounts of energy were running in circles around the Great Lakes, accomplishing nothing more than overloading lines and generating plants and forcing them to cut out.

    Sounds like the folks at First Energy indeed didn't have their house in order. Making them the sacrificial lambs for this one incident is an easy way out, and allows the Administration's policy hacks and their good buddies in the industry to go back to business as usual. That is, until the next time the lights go out.

  40. The X-Windows Disaster by RLiegh · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    ] This is Chapter 7 of the UNIX-HATERS Handbook. The X-Windows Disaster chapter was written by Don Hopkins. [

    How to make a 50-MIPS Workstation Run Like a 4.77MHz IBM PC

    If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.

    - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation

    X-Windows is the Iran-Contra of graphical user interfaces: a tragedy of political compromises, entangled alliances, marketing hype, and just plain greed. X-Windows is to memory as Ronald Reagan was to money. Years of "Voodoo Ergonomics" have resulted in an unprecedented memory deficit of gargantuan proportions. Divisive dependencies, distributed deadlocks, and partisan protocols have tightened gridlocks, aggravated race conditions, and promulgated double standards.

    X has had its share of $5,000 toilet seats -- like Sun's Open Look clock tool, which gobbles up 1.4 megabytes of real memory! If you sacrificed all the RAM from 22 Commodore 64s to clock tool, it still wouldn't have enough to tell you the time. Even the vanilla X11R4 "xclock" utility consumed 656K to run. And X's memory usage is increasing.

    X: The First Fully Modular Software Disaster
    X-Windows started out as one man's project in an office on the fifth floor of MIT's Laboratory for Computer Science. A wizardly hacker, who was familiar with W, a window system written at Stanford University as part of the V project, decided to write a distributed graphical display server. The idea was to allow a program, called a client, to run on one computer and allow it to display on another computer that was running a special program called a window server. The two computers might be VAXes or Suns, or one of each, as long as the computers were networked together and each implemented the X protocol.

    [Footnote: We have tried to avoid paragraph-length footnotes in this book, but X has defeated us by switching the meaning of client and server. In all other client/server relationships, the server is the remote machine that runs the application (i.e., the server provides services, such as database service or computational service). For some perverse reason that's better left to the imagination, X insists on calling the program running on the remote machine "the client." This program displays its windows on the "window server." We're going to follow X terminology when discussing graphical client/servers. So when you see "client" think "the remote machine where the application is running," and when you see "Server" think "the local machine that displays output and accepts user input."]

    The Nongraphical GUI
    X was designed to run three programs: xterm, xload, and xclock. (The idea of a window manager was added as an afterthought, and it shows.) For the first few years of its development at MIT, these were, in fact, the only programs that ran under the window system. Notice that none of these program have any semblance of a graphical user interface (except xclock), only one of these programs implements anything in the way of cut-and-paste (and then, only a single data type is supported), and none of them requires a particularly sophisticated approach to color management. Is it any wonder, then, that these are all areas in which modern X falls down?

    Ten years later, most computers running X run just four programs: xterm, xload, xclock, and a window manager. And most xterm windows run Emacs! X has to be the most expensive way ever of popping up an Emacs window. It sure would have been much cheaper and easier to put terminal handling in the kernel where it belongs, rather than forcing people to purchase expensive bitmapped terminals to run character-based applications. On the other hand, then users wouldn't get all of those ugly fonts. It's a trade-off.

    The Motif Self-Abuse Kit
    X gave Unix vendors something they had professed to want

    1. Re:The X-Windows Disaster by TuballoyThunder · · Score: 1
      You know what is really interesting. Do a Google search on "Unix Hater Handbook" and look at results (the first one is reproduced below).
      "The Unix-Haters Handbook" WWW Page The UNIX-HATERS Handbook Click here to see full cover (195K bytes). ... D Bibliography.
      Editors of "The Unix-Haters handbook", ugh@next.cambridge.ma.us.
      Description: Complete text of the book edited by Simson Garfinkel, Daniel Weise, and Steven Strassmann. [PDF]
      Category: Computers > Software > Operating Systems > Unix
      research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html - 3k - Cached - Similar pages
    2. Re:The X-Windows Disaster by RLiegh · · Score: 1
      And you know what is really really interesting. Do a Google Search on "Unix Hater Handbook" "who we are" and look at the results (one of two is reproduced below).

      Who We Are

      We are academics, hackers, and professionals. None of us were born in the computing analog of Ken Pier's East Africa. We have all experienced much more advanced, usable, and elegant systems than Unix ever was, or ever can be. Some of these systems have increasingly forgotten names, such as TOPS-20, ITS (the Incompatible Timesharing System), Multics, Apollo Domain, the Lisp Machine, Cedar/Mesa, and the Dorado. Some of us even use Macs and Windows boxes. Many of us are highly proficient programmers who have served our time trying to practice our craft upon Unix systems. It's tempting to write us off as envious malcontents, romantic keepers of memories of systems put to pasture by the commercial success of Unix, but it would be an error to do so: our judgments are keen, our sense of the possible pure, and our outrage authentic. We seek progress, not the reestablishment of ancient relics.

      Our story started when the economics of computing began marching us, one by one, into the Unix Gulag. We started passing notes to each other. At first, they spoke of cultural isolation, of primitive rites and rituals that we thought belonged only to myth and fantasy, of depravation and humiliations. As time passed, the notes served as morale boosters, frequently using black humor based upon our observations. Finally, just as prisoners who plot their escape must understand the structure of the prison better than their captors do, we poked and prodded into every crevice. To our horror, we discovered that our prison had no coherent design. Because it had no strong points, no rational basis, it was invulnerable to planned attack. Our rationality could not upset its chaos, and our messages became defeatist, documenting the chaos and lossage.

      This book is about people who are in abusive relationships with Unix, woven around the threads in the UNIX-HATERS mailing list. These notes are not always pretty to read. Some are inspired, some are vulgar, some depressing. Few are hopeful. If you want the other side of the story, go read a Unix how-to book or some sales brochures.

      This book won't improve your Unix skills. If you are lucky, maybe you will just stop using Unix entirel


      In short, they're proffessionals, some of whom work with windows and macs. Linux 'proffessionals' *coff coff* are conspicuous by thier absence.
  41. The Usual Suspects by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 0

    I'll bet you the whole thing was caused by an incident involving a safety technician, hot grits in strange places, and Natalie Portman.

  42. I call bullsh**... by mobiux · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually the problem was the DE-regulation of the power grid, ie, the ability to use "backup" power lines for the wholesale selling and transfer of power.

    These emergency lines were never meant for this, and since the companies that were buying and selling power didn't own the lines, they had no motivation to upgrade the capacity.

    This article explains alot.

  43. Not totally UNIX by flamefront · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Not totally UNIX -
    See Sep 1 2003:Blaster worm linked to US blackout:
    • some of those companies were running Windows-based control systems with Port 135 open - the port through which the worm attacked systems.
  44. trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, utility companies have been restricted by the EPA from cutting trees along the pole lines.

    The environmentalists say the breaks in the forest inhibit deer from migrating, because they're afraid to cross open space. Anybody who has ever bagged a deer with a car knows about this issue first hand.

    Just like the Alaska pipeline scares polar bear and caribou. Hell, they sleep on it for warmth.

    1. Re:trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why there are tree TRIMMING guidelines and tree REMOVAL guidelines. Those have to be done by law as the city can be sued for any dangerous situations caused by trees.

    2. Re:trees by gordguide · · Score: 1

      Note: the post I'm replying to is scored 0 due to it's posting anonymously; the whole post is reproduced at bottom for those that don't want to change browser preferences.

      " ... The environmentalists say the breaks in the forest inhibit deer from migrating ..."

      Yeah, if that's what they're saying, it's solid proof they don't have a clue about deer or their "migration habits".

      Deer thrive on human activity; although they like treed areas for sleeping and hanging out when they're active during daytime, at night they do quite a bit of roaming open areas, and I often see deer feeding in farmland where there isn't a tree for a mile or more in any direction during daylight.

      In a remote, forrested area I am intimitely familiar with, deer were unheard of 20 years ago; in fact they were unheard of 100 miles from there (the area is 300 miles north of where I live now, where deer have always been common). Saying you saw a deer would result in your friends buying you a quick trip to the Optomitrist.

      In the time since, clearcuts between forrested areas (they don't mow down the whole thing, cuz they aren't allowed to) have promoted deer migration to the point where deer are common; car-deer accidents have gone from zero (and by zero I mean not a single one in the first 40 years a road through the area has existed) to dozens a year in the last 10 years.

      I remember one day about 12 years ago when a photo of a deer 40 miles south of the town there made front page headlines.

      You always see exactly the same patterns when transmission lines are cut through forrested areas. In other words, deer not only don't avoid open spaces, they actively employ them to migrate.

      Original Post:
      trees (score 0) by Anonymous Coward

      Actually, utility companies have been restricted by the EPA from cutting trees along the pole lines.

      The environmentalists say the breaks in the forest inhibit deer from migrating, because they're afraid to cross open space. Anybody who has ever bagged a deer with a car knows about this issue first hand.

      Just like the Alaska pipeline scares polar bear and caribou. Hell, they sleep on it for warmth.

  45. Canada would like it's apology My Bloomberg by ShieldWolf · · Score: 0, Troll

    For blaming it on us when the real blame should fall on your countries move to self-regulation of the energy industry.

    You can also apologize in advance for this :P

    --
    just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
  46. What caused the boxes to crash? by AJWM · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It may have been a Unix box that crashed, but I've seen and heard of cases where a 'nix box crashed because of the high network load of a Windows-based worm/virus epidemic. Was this the case here?

    (There should have been better firewalling in place if so, of course.)

    --
    -- Alastair
    1. Re:What caused the boxes to crash? by Pelops · · Score: 1


      Do we really care on how the box crashed ? Don't get me wrong here, i am no Microsoft apologist, but they can be multiple reasons for servers to crashs without looking at flaws in the operating system.

      Of course, if it had been a Microsoft Server, they would be no reason to find why it crashed :)
      Pelops

    2. Re:What caused the boxes to crash? by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do we really care how the box crashed?

      If we don't want it to happen again, yes we do. It was more than one box, which points to something more systemic than a random hardware glitch or failure.

      --
      -- Alastair
  47. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry, but this "stubbed toe" is an international afair. It severly impacted Ontario's economy and we are still feeling the brunt of it. Americans should be ashamed of this.

  48. According to the specs, it's a computer with an OS by n1ywb · · Score: 1

    According to GE specifications, the system is comprised of one or more "computers" running an "operating system" and a "graphical user interface" (XWin == GUI nyaaah!)

    According to further documents, this computer's "operating system" was running some kind of "software program".

    C'mon guys, if it was running Windows and it BSoD'ed, then it might be worth mentioning. Other than that I don't see why we should be pointing out what OS it's running. The failure could have been caused by any piece of hardware, software, sabotage, or some combination thereof.

    --
    -73, de n1ywb
    www.n1ywb.com
  49. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Effexor · · Score: 1
    If it wasn't for all the government regulation, this never would have happened.

    Well, from some of the articles posted:

    - 'FirstEnergy's failure to take steps to restore its system to a stable operating condition within a half-hour of one of the major power line outages violated voluntary industry guidelines issued to keep the grid operating safely, the report said. FirstEnergy also failed to provide adequate warning of the impending emergency and provided inadequate training to its operators.

    Utilities do not now face penalties for guideline violations, although the energy bill now before Congress would make the guidelines mandatory and impose financial penalties for violations.'

    Sounds more like a failure of capitalistic free enterprise to me.

    --

    As the air to a bird or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible -W.B.

  50. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by SkepticalMan · · Score: 1

    Check out The Industrial Physicist www.tipmagazine.com October/November 2003. The problem is not regulation, it was a stupid form of de-regulation (much like and related to the deregulation that messed up california power systems) that allowed rampant energy trading leading to unpredictable load fluctuations. The grid was not designed for this sort of trading. The grid was "gamed".

  51. Least we forget this old article by spankyzone · · Score: 1

    See this previous /. article The case of the "who dun it" really doesn't matter in the end. This could have been any number of power companies in the MidWest. These unfortunate saps are the ones that got slapped first

    --
    -woog
  52. Does nobody read what they write anymore? by jaymz666 · · Score: 1

    the August 14th power outage power outage
    FirstEnergy did it. The are, of course, denying it.

    Do people really take so little pride in their communications that they no longer check it for grammar and spelling?

  53. Re:Denies? not really by illumin8 · · Score: 1

    I think if you read between the lines about all of the things going on that day, it becomes more and more clear what actually happened. This is my theory, take it with however many grains of salt you wish:

    1. The MSBlaster worm was widespread on that day, and was wreaking havoc on both the Internet and on corporate LANs when employees brought infected machines in to work and plugged them in behind the firewall.

    2. These Unix systems are old, and are probably running on 10 mbps unswitched segments of the corporate LAN.

    3. It doesn't take a lot of excess RPC traffic to completely overload the 10mbps segment. Even though the computers were not directly exploited by the MSBlaster worm, the traffic caused by all of the infected machines was enough to fully clog their 10mbps segment and effectively created a DOS attack which prevented them from monitoring the equipment out in the field which would have notified them of a failure.

    4. When IT staff noticed the machines weren't responding on the network, they did the only thing they knew how to do, rebooted the servers (it says this much in the report).

    5. The servers came back up just fine, but seeing as how this is probably the system administration group troubleshooting at this point and not the network administration group, they probably had no clue that their network was still overloaded, so the problem still existed.

    6. Everything crashed and massive blackouts and chaos ensued.

    I think it is foolish to think that MSBlaster had nothing whatsoever to do with this outage. Sure you can look through the syslog on the SCADA servers and there's probably nothing in there that would indicate a problem. That's because they were completely cut off from the rest of the network. But if they had something like MRTG that was able to monitor the bandwidth utilization on their LAN segment (highly unlikely on old equipment like this, especially 10mbps unswitched), they would have noticed near 100% utilization of the segment and collisions galore.

    This is just my theory, but I'm sticking to it unless they prove otherwise.

    --
    "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
  54. Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by MadCow42 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    He was VERY vocal when the outage occurred that it was the fault of the Canadian power grid, although he had NO basis for that assumption.

    His pissy attitude was inexcusable and Canada should request a formal apology.

    MadCow.

    --
    I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    1. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just as soon as those Canadian asstoques that verbally assaulted those US schoolkids apologise...

    2. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Bah.

      Different people in the US seem to be making a career of pointing fingers at Canada. Terrorists? They came in from Canada! Power outages? Must be the beavers!

      I don't care about apologies anymore because they're not sincere, nor does anyone change from them.

      Now if the mayor of NYC apologised and did something to improve relations across the border, I might be impressed. In the real world though, all we'll ever get is, "Sorry--it wasn't the Canadians THIS time."

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    3. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Dr+Caleb · · Score: 1
      They were not Canadian, they were Quebecois.

      Subtle difference, Quebecois live in Canada, but do not consider themselves Canadian. Canadians wouldn't do that to children.

      --
      "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
    4. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, my apologies then. Heh. =)

      At least this exchange generated the cool new word 'asstoque'.. gotta think positive!

    5. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada is a boring America.

    6. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you mean Quebecois don't consider themselves Canadian? Can you generalize any more? They just elected a federalist Premier you asstoques!

    7. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada is SAFE America.

    8. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither one of the mayors knew the cause when they made their comments at the time of the disaster. It was basically a pissing contest...

      If Canada had been at fault, would you be so quick to ask the Toronto mayor to apologize? Let's forget about such petty things and look at how to prevent such a disaster from happening again.

    9. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay Ghandi.

      Fuck that shit, it's time to INVADE CANADA

    10. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by MadCow42 · · Score: 1

      >> If Canada had been at fault, would you be so quick to ask the Toronto mayor to apologize?

      Why yes I would. And, I'm fairly sure that he would have offered (hey, we're Canadians after all...) q:]

      As for preventing things like this from occuring again I agree. However, cross-border relations are also a serious matter.

      MadCow.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    11. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by oldgeezer1954 · · Score: 1

      As a canuck I think it's silly to want an apology. Who cares what these mental midgets think in the first place.

    12. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by oldgeezer1954 · · Score: 1

      You forget that Quebecois don't consider all residents of Quebec to be in that august grouping. Only 'pure wool' residents are 'real' Quebecois.

    13. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by ShieldWolf · · Score: 1

      So some Quebecois consider the only true Quebecois to be French Quebecois, therefore we must respect that and only refer to French Quebecois as Quebecois? That is not only wrong it is racist and exclusionary as hell.

      My Sister was born in Quebec, and she is Quebecois.

      --
      just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
    14. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada is a safe UNITED STATES
      Canada is American too

    15. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by oldgeezer1954 · · Score: 1

      No argument from me on that one! Of course it's racist.... But try telling them that.

    16. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada needs to apologize to the United States for creating a population of jerk offs.

      They also need to apologize for Windsor, Ontario, and all of the French-Canadians who pretend like they don't know English when you ask them for help (btw -- they do understand what the middle finger means).

      They also need to apologize for being in between us and Alaska.

      They need to apologize for touching all of our Northern borders and polluting the Arctic, the Pacific, and the Atlantic oceans. Bastards.

      Get real dickwad.

    17. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
      >> If Canada had been at fault, would you be so quick to ask the Toronto mayor to apologize?

      Why yes I would. And, I'm fairly sure that he would have offered (hey, we're Canadians after all...) q:]

      I doubt it--the mayor of Toronto at the time was that idiot Mel Lastman. (I live in Toronto.) He's the same guy who embarrassed the city during the SARS crisis by not knowing who the World Health Organization was.

      There was some speculation by members of the federal government that a nuclear plant in Pennsylvania my have been involved; those remarks were later withdrawn.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    18. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he's still pissed about the blackout in the 60's.

    19. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "French" is not a race, asstoque.

      Exclusionary, sure. Discriminatory? Show me what they're being denied here, other than respect.

      But racist? Put the crack pipe down, Timmy.

    20. Re:Mayor of NYC needs to apologize to Canada by ShieldWolf · · Score: 1

      Please point out where I used the word Discriminatory moron.

      --
      just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
  55. Bring back KATZ!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    he likes puppies!!!

  56. NERC is so 133+ by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

    "The blackout investigation homepage lists all NERC's documents relating to this event"
    http://www.nerc.com/~filez/blackout.html

    Wonder if they have a /~warez directory too.

    --
    Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
  57. At least... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least they were running UNIX... if they were running Windoze, everyone in North America would be back to the Stone Age for a few months.

  58. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by DenOfEarth · · Score: 1

    So sever all power ties with the US, since the ontarioans never experience accidents, no

  59. Damn Ents. by ilsa · · Score: 1

    Actually, the primary cause -- and make no mistake, it should not have brought down multiple states and provinces -- was tree limbs that had fallen on power lines. At least that is how it was presented in the half dozen or so articles I read on the issue.

    The amusing thing to me is that we had a guy run for local office in Michigan on the platform of "no unnecessary tree trimming." I hope his wife and neighbors are reminding him of that now.

    --
    -- I Am Not A Terrorist.
  60. SCADA systems are DCOM based by stock · · Score: 1, Informative

    "According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows."

    Thats a outcry lie :
    http://www.automationtechies.com/sitepages/pid6 41. php

    SCADA are OPC (OLE for Process Control) based.

    So the story is a false report. Microsoft is again the company to blaim.

    Robert

    1. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all SCADA systems use OPC.

    2. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by Ktulu_03 · · Score: 1

      And also interesting, that MS Blaster was running rampant around the same time, attacking DCOM ports on windows boxes. I've heard rumors of this as a possibility, but never anything official that MS Blaster could have had some effect.

    3. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by Detritus · · Score: 1

      The fact that they are using Microsoft technology does not mean that they are using Microsoft software.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    4. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      Product manual for the GE Harris XA/21 Power Management System SCADA unit:

      http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/scada_ so ftware/en/downloads/xa21_overview.pdf">

      Standards
      Standards benefit the vendor as
      well as the customer. XA/21? is
      built on a foundation of industry
      and de-facto standards:
      * UNIX(R) * ODBC
      * POSIX(R) * DNP 3.0
      * UCA? * ICCP
      * MVME * SQL
      * DXF graphics exchange format
      * TCP/IP-based Networking
      * ANSI(R) C, FORTRAN
      * X Windows Systems
      * IEC(R) 870-6 TASE.2
      * ELCOM 90

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    5. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes,

      SCADA systems are running a stripped down version of Windows 2000 or NT for the nodes, and the
      front ends are UNIX.

      The front end did not crash, it was not getting data.

      Thanks to a few MS worms running around, I'll wager.

      Check out this link:
      http://itco.web.cern.ch/itco/Projects-Servi ces/JCO P/ProjectTeam/Minutes/1999/24-11-99/scada_unix.pdf

    6. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by nomadicGeek · · Score: 1

      This is not the case. Ole for Process Control (OPC) which is DCOM based is extremely common and you often see it in SCADA systems but it is not a defining element.

      I've been through some of the GE/Harris training and have worked with these systems in the past and I will soon start a project to redesign the security on one of these systems.

      The overall EMS system is usually large and consists of a little of everything. The core system is Unix based.

      The hardware is usually comprised of IBM AIX systems but I have seen HP-UX boxes as well. There is a lot of redundancy in the system so that a single and in many cases multiple hardware failures will not affect the system.

      The software relies on a database to store most of the configuration information. It used to be Sybase but Oracle is also supported and is usually the choice now.

      The system software is somewhat archaic consisting of a lot of C code developed by GE/Harris. As you can imagine, this isn't an off the shelf type of thing. There is a lot of redundancy and error checking in the code and it is very resiliant to an overall failure although in my experience it can be pretty finicky on an individual workstation or server level.

      The problem arises in that there are a lot of support systems connected to this core system. They are many times NT based. They may and many times to use OPC which is DCOM based. NT based programs may be used for alarming and user interfaces. They are always used to create the screens on the XA/21 itself becuase they are built in AutoCad and then imported into the system.

      The use of Windows/NT in SCADA and control systems can be a big problem. You have to take the appropriate security precautions and realize that these aren't like your desktop systems.

      The problems that I see is that these systems are usually put in by engineers with limited help from the IT department. The IT departments typically don't know enough about the systems and they are usually not a big priority for IT. The engineers usually know little about IT.

      It is easy to be flippant about NT's security problems and they can be serious. Despite this, it is very possible to build a very stable and secure environment even when it contains NT systems. You just have to be mature about it and deal with it. It has become extremely uncommon to find a system that doesn't use NT somewhere.

    7. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by don.g · · Score: 1

      Window-based SCADA systems such as iFIX (which I notice has justs been bought by GE) often support OPC. But SCADA - Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition - is just a generic term like "Spreadsheet". SCADA systems have existed since before Windows came around, and there are at least some (not sure how many, as I haven't done any work with them since early 2001) such as RealFlex which run under other operating systems like QNX; there are also still quite a few DOS-based packages out there.

      --
      Pretend that something especially witty is here. Thanks.
    8. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by RobFrontier · · Score: 1

      "The problems that I see is that these systems are usually put in by engineers with limited help from the IT department. The IT departments typically don't know enough about the systems and they are usually not a big priority for IT. The engineers usually know little about IT." I would have to agree, I work in the IT department for a large manufacturing company. I don't know enough about our SCADA and PLC systems, and the Controls deptartment doesn't know enough about my end. We do have (fortunately) one member of our IT team who came from the Controls side, and knows the systems inside and out. I'm trying to learn more about them, but of course time is always a factor.

    9. Re:SCADA systems are DCOM based by nomadicGeek · · Score: 1

      It is worth spending time to learn even if it means that you do a lot of it on your own time.

      I guess you know that it can be pretty daunting. There are a lot of acronyms and protocols to learn. It is also a lot different than regular IT work because everything is interfaced to physical systems. Dealing with critical business systems can be pretty stressful but it is even more so when your system could kill or mame someone, release a toxic cloud of chemicals, or take the power out in a city. I tend to enjoy the challenges.

      I can tell you from my experience that this is a good combination of skills to have. I have kept very busy over the last few years and have recently been passing up work. There is just a huge demand for this skillset.

  61. Chalk one up for M$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So now the score is *nix:678321287636537 M$:1

  62. Grid Physics by SkepticalMan · · Score: 1

    Check out The Industrial Physicist (www.tipmagazine.com) October/November 2003, for another take. A big change has occured since de-regulation hit that the grid was not designed for. Local systems are responsible for but have no control over the energy flowing through their systems for trading purposes. ENRON and other companies are "gaming" the system.

  63. You got it in reverse by just+fiddling+around · · Score: 5, Insightful

    FYI, US governement have been engaged in a nice deregulation wave for 10 years. That deregulation has been poorly tought out, because of a "The Market Cures All" mindset. What did the deregulation bring? Gigantic power outages and California-style power crunches.

    The deregulated US power grid is overstressed, has little or no margin for extra demand, and has outdated and poorly maintained emergency systems. And thanks to Enron and friends, artificial scarceness has been created to crank up prices.

    In a nutshell, you pay more and get less(safety, avaliability, quality) than when the market was regulated. Ain't The Market grand?

    Electric power is a basic necessity(in our post-industrial world), and should be managed by the state, just like water works and law enforcement.

    --
    You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
    1. Re:You got it in reverse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look at Texas for a model in deregulation. Their energy prices are low, and they have a 20% surplus on even the hottest days in summer. Texas, BTW, has its own power grid separate from the other main grids in the US.

      Deregulation can work, but as you seem to imply, only if it is properly thought out. This is a very rare occurance in politics and government.

    2. Re:You got it in reverse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of the undersupply in California stemmed from environmental policies put into place that basically prevented new power plants from being built. These were all enacted when their power was still regulated. The "fix" has resulted in Californians paying through the roof energy prices and businesses moving out hand over foot.

      It's no wonder why over half of the nation's unemployment is in California, the way they are running that place.

    3. Re:You got it in reverse by bnenning · · Score: 1
      Look at Texas for a model in deregulation. Their energy prices are low, and they have a 20% surplus on even the hottest days in summer. Texas, BTW, has its own power grid separate from the other main grids in the US.

      Deregulation can work, but as you seem to imply, only if it is properly thought out. This is a very rare occurance in politics and government.


      Just quoting this unusally intelligent AC comment at +2. I agree completely; the free market can work quite well, but half-assed "deregulation" like that inflicted on California invariably leads to the worst of both worlds.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    4. Re:You got it in reverse by laird · · Score: 1

      Actually, California never had a power generation shortage. They had a pricing problem, where the power distribution companies jacked up their prices (often to 50x pre-deregulation pricing) by manipulating the system (such as creating artificial scarcity, so that the state had to pay more because of a scarcity surcharge clause in the law, or by routing power out of the state and back in in order to invoke an 'out of state power' surcharge)to the point where the state couldn't keep paying.

    5. Re:You got it in reverse by HomerJayS · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, California never had a power generation shortage

      Yes, indeed there was a generation shortage. CA de-reg worked just fine until 2000-2001. A heat wave, and below average hydro power output (drought) contributed. Several new power plants have come online since this time to alleviate the shortages.

      I agree that the price manipulation was also a major contributing factor. Utilities could not afford to purchase all the power they needed at 'market' rates (the rates they charged the customers were fixed by the CPUC). All very much legal, BTW.

      All in all a classic case in how government enforced price controls don't work.

    6. Re:You got it in reverse by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Electric power is a basic necessity...

      Absolutely, and it's interesting to note that planned US spending on electrical infrastructure to 2005 is 71 cents per American per year. Meanwhile, the US gov. plans to spend $255 per citizen in Iraq! (Health spending plans are also illuminating : $38 per capita on hospitals in Iraq versus $3.30 in the US).

      If I was a US citizen, I would be furious about this failure to invest my tax dollars in my own country's infrastructure.

      --
      My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
    7. Re:You got it in reverse by pi_rules · · Score: 1
      If I was a US citizen, I would be furious about this failure to invest my tax dollars in my own country's infrastructure.


      I'm just pissed that they're taking it. You know what my medical bills total up to in the past 5 years for visiting a doctor?

      $0 USD. That's $0 CDN for those of you that can't do conversions in your head. I forget how to convert to British Pounds.

      Where the snot do they get authorization to tax ME for MEDICAL expenses for SOMEBODY OUTSIDE MY COUNTRY?!

      Gah.
    8. Re:You got it in reverse by AlienFactor · · Score: 1
      ...it's interesting to note that planned US spending on electrical infrastructure to 2005 is 71 cents per American per year...If I was a US citizen, I would be furious about this failure to invest my tax dollars in my own country's infrastructure.

      Ummm...it is not the proper place of the US government to build power infrastructure. Power companies build power infrastructure. If that figure is accurate, then the US governement is spending 71 cents too much.

    9. Re:You got it in reverse by mkldev · · Score: 1
      According to all the reports I've seen in our area, there was no shortage. A bunch of generator companies colluded to keep plants offline for "servicing" for months at a time. Those plants could have supplied the needed power. Many were not actually in need of servicing. One such plant was a block from where I lived, and I got to hear all about how Bank of America refused to let our campus continue operating the plant because the generator company had filed for bankruptcy.... Eventually, the campus bought a controlling interest in the plant, IIRC.

      Make no mistake, it was ALL about price manipulation. The price manipulation occurred by keeping plants offline that didn't need to remain offline, thus leading to an artificial shortage....

      --
      120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
    10. Re:You got it in reverse by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 1
      it is not the proper place of the US government to build power infrastructure

      I disagree. There are some aspects of a country's infrastructure which cannot be allowed to fail (which is what the free market is ultimately about - good businesses thrive, poor ones go bankrupt). Would you use the same reasoning about, for example, the interstate highways? The military?

      --
      My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
    11. Re:You got it in reverse by laird · · Score: 1

      In aggregate there was no power generation shortage -- their were local shortages due to artificial manipulation of generation capacity (e.g. power companies pulling stations offline in order to cause brownouts to scare people into approving higher rates) and in transmission (e.g. shipping the power all over the power grid in order to create bottlenecks).

      That being said, it's true that since deregulation the power companies were underinvesting in building new capacity. luckily, while they were regulated they were forced to build enough capacity that they were able to survive a period of laziness. Remember, executives aren't paid to spend money to fix problems that won't be obvious for a decade; they're paid to save money right now, and the next guy in the job can deal with the inherited problems.

  64. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what about the last major power outage that DID originate from canada? are the Canadians ashamed of that?

    exactly.

  65. Power out again @ FirstEnergyCorp by kidgenius · · Score: 2, Funny
    Well, I clicked on the link to FirstEnergyCorp and I got a 500 Error.

    Seems that their server went down. I guess this means the northeast will be experiencing another blackout.

    Blackouts by ./ Must be a first

  66. Doh! I knew it. by WC+as+Kato · · Score: 1

    During a critical hour before a final chain reaction of power line outages began around 4 p.m. Eastern daylight saving time, FirstEnergy grid controllers were flying blind, unaware of computer and power line problems on their system, according to the investigation headed by U.S. Energy Department officials and their Canadian counterparts.

    Anyone else picture Homer Simpson here?

    --
    --- I'm Green Hornet's sidekick not Inspector Clouseau's!
  67. Who cares about the OS or the provider? by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First of all, let's be perfectly clear on this.

    Any carefully managed OS (inluding Windows) can be stable and predictable.

    Any badly managed OS (including Unix) WILL be unstable and unpredictable.

    Got it? Good.

    Now as far as pointing fingers at the guilty parties, understand that the infrastructure is really at fault far more than any individual company. Look at this from a broader perspective: One company was able to take down how wide of an area? The whole system is too fragile, too interdependent, and maintained too close to full capacity. Worse, there's absolutely no incentive for a company to maintain a large reserve capacity, since it costs a lot, and brings in no extra income.

    But of course when it happens the next time (and make no mistake--it will), we'll have another commission to once again figure out the single company that broke a rotten and unstable infrastructure, instead of fixing the root problem.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by Ktulu_03 · · Score: 1, Troll

      True, but there was a Windows-only virus running around (MS Blaster) that would attack the DCOM port of a windows box. Its a possibility that this virus could have had something to do with the blackout, therefore the OS does matter in this case.

      I agree with you though, any OS can be made in-secure by the user. But IMHO, not all OS's can be made secure by the user as well.

    2. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Any carefully managed OS (inluding Windows) can be stable and predictable.

      Wrong.

      At last count, Internet Explorer had 30 unpatched security holes.

      That means, no matter how well you manage it, no matter how current your patches, Internet Explorer is still full of holes.

      And, as you know, Microsoft integrated Internet Explorer into the OS.

      Quite frankly, anyone who uses Microsoft software in a mission critical application, where network security is a requirement, is incompetent.

    3. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      I will bet you, or anyone else, $1000 right now that I could run a Windows 98SE box with IE6 installed for 1 (one) year without getting a virus, worm, trojan, getting owned, or compromised in any way. (I don't think the FSF can make this claim about their own file server.)

      The only rule is that the box will be in my possession and I am the only one allowed physical access to the input devices and the box iteslf.

      Any takers?

    4. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by Slime-dogg · · Score: 1

      I'd take it on the condition that you have it plugged in, turned on, and connected to the internet full time.

      Also, rebooting the machine is illegal.

      You sure you want to take that bet?

      --
      You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
    5. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      Now as far as pointing fingers at the guilty parties, understand that the infrastructure is really at fault far more than any individual company. Look at this from a broader perspective: One company was able to take down how wide of an area? The whole system is too fragile, too interdependent, and maintained too close to full capacity. Worse, there's absolutely no incentive for a company to maintain a large reserve capacity, since it costs a lot, and brings in no extra income.

      But of course when it happens the next time (and make no mistake--it will), we'll have another commission to once again figure out the single company that broke a rotten and unstable infrastructure, instead of fixing the root problem.


      You are jumping the gun here - the commission isn't finished. This is only the phase I report - what happened. The phase II report will be about "how do we stop it from happening again." They may address incentives and the fragility of the system. (Who knows, the politicians *might* even implement some of the fixes.)

      The point is well made however that if errors by a company are able to cause failures so remote from that company's control, then the system is also at fault. It is like an application that crashes the OS - it is a bug in the application, but also a bug in the OS that allows it to happen.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    6. Re:Who cares about the OS or the provider? by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      You and too many others are mistaking crappy PC-grade OSes for PC-level management. They're different things.

      IE is full of holes. That's a given fact. That does NOT however, compromise the integrity of the OS if you don't let it.

      Firewalls, backups, failover planning, change management, documentation, monitoring, and independent verification make are the things that lead to stable and predictable behaviour. NOT bug-free, but bug-tolerant.

      Now doing this on Win95/98 is a deeply bad idea, because of the increased amount of work to implement it all. Doing it on patched Win2k or XP or Solaris or HP-UX or *BSD or Linux or whatever else is substantially easier, because those OSes have a much higher degree of stability and predictability to begin with. (effectively lower entropy.) Between them all, choose the best tool for the job.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  68. What is really sad about this is... by SeattleGameboy · · Score: 1

    The Energy Bill that the House just passed will have NO EFFECT whatsoever to prevent this blackout from happening again.

    Even so, the Congre$$ sold the Energy Bill as a panacea for our energy problems while stuffing it with tens of billions of dollars of tax breaks and special interest provisions. Talk about porkaroma...

  69. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by the+morgawr · · Score: 1

    In the Mississippi Delta (runs from Memphis to Vicksburg), the power company is a co-op. It's owned by the citizens. Power tends to be pretty reliable, but not very clean (due to old equipment that costs too much to replace).

    --
    The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
  70. Slashdot geeks need to apologize to Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot spewed some particularly vile FUD when the rumour came out that the outage had been caused by Microsoft Systems infected with Blaster. Time to eat our own words and apologize to MS for wrongly criticizing their products when the systems involved where actualyy *nix boxen running X.

    PS: For the humour-impaired: yes, this is supposed to be a joke ;)

    1. Re:Slashdot geeks need to apologize to Microsoft by MadCow42 · · Score: 1

      Why would that be a joke?

      Anyone that stated that the outage was IN FACT caused by a MS worm SHOULD apologize (as the NYC mayor presented the outage was Canada's fault).

      Speculation and suggestion are slightly different... if the mayor simply said "it could be because of Canada" or "at this point it looks like... but we're not sure" things wouldn't be as significant.

      Hey, when I accuse somebody of something and then turn out to be wrong, I'll gladly apologize.

      MadCow.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
  71. about a half hour later by dpilot · · Score: 1

    Sounds about right for a really decent UPS to have its batteries run dry. It would have helped had the alarms gone off, and started the backup generator.

    (probably not the true scenario, but still stupid enough to be possible)

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  72. Here come the lawsuits.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get your legal pads ready, boys.

  73. Are you one of those people... by ProtonMotiveForce · · Score: 1

    who also refuses to accept the fact that a "hacker" really does mean (as one of its meanings) a malicious hacker?

    A word is defined by how most people use it, and like it or not - a hacker, to most people, is someone who does bad things with computers. Done.

    Same with this - they lost the battle. It's X Windows whether they like it or not.

  74. Re:Denies? not really by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
    I think we can take it with a huge grain of salt, because if it wasn't the Blaster worm you'd be making rationalizations about something else that could be tied to Microsoft. Perhaps an "inside scoop" on how one of their employees was playing Solitaire at the time the Unix box went down, hmmmm? Anything other than what actually happened. I mean, this wasn't "M$" fault? That's unpossible!!

    You can talk about black helicopters 'till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change what's in the report. Do you really believe that you're smarter than the people who wrote that up? That they, in their obvious technical incompetence (compared to your evidently superior intellect) ignored the "fact" that increased RPC traffic is what took down the Unix server?

    Their IT infrastructure is outdated and it sucks, the box crashed, get over it and take it like a man.

  75. First Energy is a horrible corporation by puppetluva · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a timely link. . .

    FirstEnergy used to be CEI. . . a horrible company in Cleveland that allowed a nuclear core failure through negligence and then tried to bully the government of Cleveland into selling its municipal power supply to it thereby granting it monopoly status in the region.

    Check out the story here:
    http://kucinich.us/powertothepeople.htm

    The presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich was Mayor of Cleveland at the time and endured a browbeating when he refused to sell the Municipal power company to these scoundrels.

    I'm not necessarily pro-Kucinich, but I am VERY anti-FirstEnergy. They have a track record of irresponsibility and dishonesty that should be enough to have the government dismantle them.

  76. What logic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had always wondered which was the superior system, but thanks to your scientific research I now know! Thanks SlashDot!

  77. Ah, the Unix Box Went Down by H8X55 · · Score: 1

    As long as it didn't have anything to do with that Saddam Hussein fellow, or his little buddy Osama bin Laden...

  78. SCADA system users... by AB3A · · Score: 1

    ...are rarely ever computer savvy enough to maintain thier own systems.

    Usually these systems were put together by some integrator consultant years ago. The consultant goes on to bigger and better jobs, but the system remains pretty much as it had been set up.

    The problem, as we gentle slashdot readers know too well, is that nearly all computers need security patches or updates of some sort applied. In addition, there are often configuration changes, log files which need to be looked at, and a thousand other day to day tasks which need to be done.

    But there is nobody to do those things. The company usually buys a packaged turnkey system and they run around with the belief that they don't have to do anything or spend any time to keep the system in good health.

    And this is why First Energy's blackout happened. Hint: it could have been any of a number of other energy distribution system operators.

    Let me reiterate one very important point: operating a distribution system via SCADA is a dull job. The people doing this sort of work aren't hired because they're bright. They're hired because they can take the boredom.

    Homer Simpson the cartoon character is not nearly as far fetched as most people think.

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
  79. Re: money for u by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, thanks for your id! I've already forwarded a complaint to abuse@goldenbetcasino.net.

    You won't see those greens, Einstein!

  80. What were the failed systems running? by mabu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    After browsing all the comments thus far, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to what OS these failed systems were running. Let's find this out... it's also of interest that in the Windows license agreement, it specifically states that Windows shouldn't be used for mission-critical applications involving scenarios like this, so it would be further hilarity if they were running Windows in contrast to the products' own licensing agreement.

    1. Re:What were the failed systems running? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were absolutely running UNIX (AIX 4.1.5). No windows machines involved at all.

    2. Re:What were the failed systems running? by mabu · · Score: 1

      What's your source for this information?

      Any details on exactly what failed? Software? Hardware? Something in between?

      I'm not trying logging for fodder in the OS wars, but when two critical systems fail, something or someone is fallible and it's ridiculous that the report didn't go into great detail on the elements of these critical systems.

    3. Re:What were the failed systems running? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry it took me a bit. Responding anonymously for obvious reasons. I worked for the company that makes XA/21 (used to be Harris, then GE Harris, and it is now GE) around the time First Energy was delivered. Typically, there would be no PCs on the EMS lan, which is isolated from First Energy's corporate LAN.

  81. "deregulation" - regulation by another name by the+morgawr · · Score: 1
    The problem is that electricity is what we call a "Natural Monopoly" - the monetary efficiency of making electricity goes up exponetially as you make more, and fixed costs are high.

    To date we have not found a point at which the costs start increasing again (a key factor in having a free market). This causes the market pressure to favor one large company (the most efficient means of producing power). However once that happens, there is no pressure to be efficient or charge fair prices. Government regulations are intended to create that pressure.

    In this case the government regulations not only failed to create that pressure but encouraged bad behavior (there are pretty complicated rules for "trading" power, what most people call "deregulation" of power was just a different, and equally bad form of government regulation).

    --
    The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
  82. Do you have a better link? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

    The link specified in your post:

    http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/scada_so ftware/en/xa21.htm

    Brings up a 404 on Ge's website.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  83. Power outage traced to dim bulb in White House by TheRealStyro · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Investigative journalist Greg Palast knows what caused the power outage - deregulation. Here are some excerpts from his article on the subject...
    I can tell you all about the ne're-do-wells that sent us back to the Dark Ages last week. I came up against these characters -- First Energy and the Niagara Mohawk Power Company -- some years back. You see, before I was a journalist, I worked for a living, as an investigator of corporate racketeers.

    The power outage began in First Energy's Ohio operation. This company was the model for the film, "China Syndrome." Really. Then First Energy's Pennsylvania unit fumbled the power ball. These are the very same Homer Simpsons who melted Three Mile Island.

    ...

    Is last week's black-out a surprise? Heck, no, not to us in the field who've watched Bush's buddies flick the switches across the globe. In Brazil, Houston Industries seized ownership of Rio de Janeiro's electric company. The Texans (aided by their French partners) fired workers, raised prices, cut maintenance expenditures and, CLICK! the juice went out so often te locals now call it, "Rio Dark."

    So too the free-market British buckaroos controlling Niagara Mohawk raised prices, slashed staff, cut maintenance and CLICK! -- New York joins Brazil in the Dark Ages.
    The short of it? Bush and cronies deregulated the energy industry (and continuing even more this week) and the industry responded just as any greedy entity would - raise prices, fire workers, slack off on maintenance and pocket the savings.

    FDR enacted regulation of certain industries to insure that consumers would not get ripped-off. Bush reversed these regulations possibly because he doesn't know history, and/or he and/or friends/relatives have stock in these industries, or some other overlooked reason. Bush and his administration heavily contributed to the power outage, and is making sure that plenty more are bound to happen. Remember this on the next election day.
    --
  84. W32.Blaster links? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    You can read a story I submitted on possible W32.Blaster links in my journal.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  85. SCADA Definition by pjkundert · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For those of you that might be interested, SCADA is an acronym for

    Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition

    It defines nothing about whether or not COM, DCOM, OPC (Ole for Process Control), or any other proprietary communication framework is used (contrary to some other highly moderated statements you are likely to see in this discussion)

    The bulk of serious SCADA systems in place are probably legacy systems of some kind, including many variants of UNIX systems (we have old micro VAX systems still in use). Many of the newer systems are Windows based, and are obviously subject the standard Windows viri, worms, etc.

    Worse yet, these systems are very difficult to upgrade or patch, due to the critical nature of their duties. It is not unlikely that a large portion of the Windows based SCADA systems in the world remain unpatched, and are "safely" firewalled off from the internet.

    Of course, the problem is that much of the monitoring gear used to diagnose network issues is also Windows based, and carries with it the standard retinue of Windows viruses and worms, right into the heart of the control center.

    These UNIX systems have run (and will contiue to run) uninterrupted for years at a time. We have calendar alerts in place to tell us to go manually reboot unix machines after months of uptime, just to ensure that their SCSI drives will spin back up (in case of a control center power outage, etc.)

    Somehow, I don't think that is an issue for some vendor's SCADA systems based on more popular OS's, but I might be wrong...

    --
    -- -pjk Perry Kundert perry@kundert.ca http://kundert.2y.net
    1. Re:SCADA Definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows has standard viruses, worms etc.?

      Wow, that's real progress.

  86. Mod parent down... by pVoid · · Score: 1
    Document says on page 101 of PDF:

    There is also no evidence, nor is there any information suggesting, that viruses and worms prevalent across the internet at the time of the outage had any significant impact on power generation and delivery systems. SWG analysis to date has brought to light certain concerns with respect to: the possible failure of alarm software; links to control and data acquisition software; and the lack of a system or process for some operators to view adequately the status of electric systems outside their immediate control.

    The link to blaster is implicit at best, non existen IMO.

    (note: I'm not using the "in other words" tactic of the parent to introduce a whole new paragraph of 'facts')

    1. Re:Mod parent down... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the entire report and a more in-depth analysis here.

    2. Re:Mod parent down... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about two systems that talk to each other:

      1) The power generation and delivery system

      2) The alarm control system.

      The report is exactly correct. virus/worm activity did _not_ affect the power and generation delivery system. The power generation and delivery system is the XA/21 running on the Unix platform.

      The alarm control system, on the other hand, is a SCADA system almost certainly running on NT.

      This was an unfair "Mod down."

    3. Re:Mod parent down... by pVoid · · Score: 2, Informative
      Well, the real issue, as I understand it, and as everyone seems to want to obfuscate, is the Unix system *did* in fact malfunction, and that the warnings were not seen *because* of the worms taking down the Windows servers.

      If anyone has some tangible evidence to the contrary, I would sure like to hear it/read the quote... As far as reading this blog goes though, I'm not too interested in hearing people quote one line, and make a completely orthogonal conclusion.

      That's what I was saying... The grandparent post used the crucial "in other words" construct which, contrary to appearances, is actually just a guess (even if it is educated). I'm not defending microsoft here. I just want to make that crystal clear.

  87. No Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They would just blame the Linux world for injecting bad code on to their stuff. After all, SCO has been busy getting code somewhere.

  88. Re:Do you have a better link? Try this. by DeHar · · Score: 1
  89. Population density viz of the Eastern USA by DAldredge · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/deepeas t01/background/dumping/media/dumping2.html

    1. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by unother · · Score: 1

      Ohhhhh-kay... so what's your point?

      Here's a map of Canada, and its relative densities. Gee, look where all the people are--ain't that where the blackout happened?

      And here are two small states--NJ and CT--that flank NYC ("Tri-State Area") and their own densities. Pretty good amount of people eh? Granted the stats are per sq. mile, but it is not too hard to extrapolate.

      So please, tell me again how the Northeastern US is so different from France in terms of denisty?

    2. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      My point is that the blackout hit that entire area. It just didn't hit the areas with high pop density.

    3. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by unother · · Score: 1

      Now, that is stupid. Ex-squeeze me, but, erm, the areas that got "blacked-out" are high-density population centers.

      You must not live in the NE US.

    4. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      No. The entire are was blacked out. Not just the high density population centers.

      What do you think happened? The power outage just took out the large cities?

    5. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by unother · · Score: 1

      You seem to have a problem with the concept of "high-density". Perhaps because you appear to be suffering from an internal form of "high-density".

      To whit: high-density does not mean in a big city. Much of the suburban sprawl qualifies as "high-density", as well, especially in historical terms.

      Please: get that through your own "high-denisty" zone.

    6. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      The gfx that I posted shows that most of the Eastern USA is low density.

      One can not argue with facts

    7. Re:Population density viz of the Eastern USA by unother · · Score: 1

      Okay. Why don't I just go back to your original source for the quote from which you have derived this interminally idiotic argument. It's plain you know little about geography since you've tarried this long.

      But average density is not a particularly useful indicator, since population distribution is highly uneven. Half of the population occupy just over 10% of the surface area - the Paris area and lower part of the Seine valley, the Lyon area, the Rhone valley and the Mediterranean coast, the Loire, Garonne and Rhine valleys, the Brittany coast and industrial areas in Lorraine and the north. These areas have the densest populations; it is Paris which holds the record, with 20,000 inhabitants per km2. Meanwhile, vast swathes of countryside are sparsely populated - sometimes with fewer than 20 inhabitants per km2.

      Because the web is becoming an ever more useless place, I can't get links to actual demographically relevant maps, but suffice it to say, you are simply another example of one of those sad slash-dotters who can't let an argument die.

      Since your original assertion was that France was somehow much more densely populated than the Eastern US, how do you feel getting brought back to task with your own source, less selectively quoted and referenced appropriately?

  90. made me laugh by Dave_bsr · · Score: 1

    yeah i know its crude and mean but you made me laugh. thanks....still can't stop.

    --


    Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
  91. X Windows by spectasaurus · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The real reason the systems crashed was because because they were installing the newest NVIDIA drivers.

  92. Not UNIX, But client - Server by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Check out the last page of this. What it says is server is Compaq/Unix (which is either dec unix or SCO unix) and the desktop display is NT. All the processing is done on the client side and the servers simply hold the data. HUMMMM.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  93. Who is michael, and why the deceptive story post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Though the report is wordy, it makes it clear that the real cause of the blackout -- the reason why the normal procedures failed to do their job -- was as follows:

    1. The Blaster worm was flooding the utility's network.
    2. They therefore couldn't get the necessary status information.
    3. They therefore failed to take the necessary corrective actions.

    In other words, the real cause was a lack of security in Windows.

    So why does michael's introduction try to deceive us, by implying that the Unix control system was at fault? That system didn't fail -- it just couldn't do its job due to the denial-of-service attack caused by Windows and Blaster.

  94. Re:SCADA systems are *NOT ALWAYS* DCOM based by elbarsal · · Score: 4, Informative

    OK, before everybody gets carried away with what SCADA systems are based on, let me point out - SCADA stands for "Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition". No single company makes SCADA any more than any single company makes any other type of application software.

    SCADA systems exist that will run on QNX, Linux (See VSystem), Windows NT/2000, DOS (Yes, DOS - i.e. FactoryLink with DesqView) as well as other older platforms like VAX/VMS and PDP-11.

    So, SCADA systems do not necessarily rely on OPC or DCOM - some do, some don't. Some still use DDE (trust me, not the most reliable means of communication).

    Industry uses all sorts of SCADA systems, from several vendors - Rockwell Software makes RSView, Wonderware makes InTouch, Siemens makes WinCC, you get the picture. The GE package involved in the systems at First Energy is only one example of SCADA, in the same way that EMACS is only one example of a text editor.

    Sorry for the rant, but IAAAE (I am an automation engineer).

  95. blame is still hard to place. by twitter · · Score: 1
    Only people who have seen that control room know for sure what system failed. As the linked pdf mentions, the system seems to be Unix, but it's heavily mired in M$ and other junk. Page 5 mentions ODBC. The part that failed was an alarm function and could have been running on an NT box through cygwin or something. I've seen people insist on haveing EVERYTHING work on their silly Windoze box and all of the power plant databases I know of have some dinky windoze client. Don't expect to find out anytime soon. If someone was dumb enough to move everything to windoze, expect them to cover ass and leave the exact platform undefined and digging throught the report may not yeild anything.

    My wife's impression, from reading a CNN blurb, was that the "root cause was poor tree trimming". Oh boy.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  96. Obligatory SCO post by WoKKiee · · Score: 1

    Our SCADA system (Nelson Mandela Metropolitan Municipality, Port Elizabeth, South Africa) rus on SCO Unixware. I used to be opposed to any "upgrades" to Win2K boxen, purely on the grounds of "Unix=stable=cool" vs. "M$=unstable=suck". Now I'm pretty blase about the whole matter.

    BTW, none of our outages have been due to the SCADA system not operating properly. Most of them were due to lack of staff/maintenance and theft of conductor. The communication links between the remote outstations and the comms gateway are in general also less reliable than the computer running the SCADA system. And our operators are also in general pretty dim...

  97. 2:14 Skynet becomes self aware... by the+melon · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else find it funny that the system failed at 2:14 pm? ...on August 29 1997 at 2:14 am SkyNet becomes self aware....

    I'm pretty sure he did sat 2:14 am.

  98. Mirror of NERC Report by DDumitru · · Score: 1
    I have setup a mirror here which includes the NERC report.

    The PDF is about 4.4 Meg and the NERC site has been well /.ed

  99. Not UNIX, But MS client / Unix Server by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Check out the real specs. The poster is way off base.
    http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/scada_so ftware/en/downloads/enmac_overview.pdf
    The Unix server (either Dec or SCO Unix) serves mainly as DB server while the processing and display is done on MS windows.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  100. It's deregulation by laird · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It's all about early adopter. We invested huge amounts of money to wire up the whole country before nuclear was an option, and there's no way we can spend that much again to rip it all out and replace it with newer/better/safer alternatives. Same thing with our telephone system, cable tv, internet, etc. We're trying to squeeze every last ounce of usefulness out of the existing system, while so-called "3rd world" countries are getting the latest and greatest tech because they have no prior investments."

    I disagree completely -- until the US deregulated, we had an extremely reliable power system that was able to expand dramatically for many decades to keep up with demand while keeping prices low. Then some lunatics convinced enough people that it was a good idea to make power companies unregulated monopolies (i.e. they were no longer required to invest in maintenance and infrastructure, or to maintain excess capacity to cover emergencies or power spikes, and removed the cap on profit margin), after which the power companies did what you'd expect -- raised rates like crazy while slashing spending on infrastructure maintenance and expansion. The result is that a bunch of investors and CEO's made tons of money while the capacity and quality of service that they provided suffered. The problem was not just the big outage -- the number of instabilities in the power grid that didn't result in actual outages has been increasing dramatiaclly for decades.

    See http://www.ncpa.org/iss/ene/2003/pd081503a.html for some more info.

    Who do I blame? The politicians who allowed themselves to be bought off (or conned) by the power companies, to the detriment of the entire country.

    1. Re:It's deregulation by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      "...Who do I blame? The politicians who allowed themselves to be bought off..."

      you should blame the people who elect and re-elect said politicians.

      -I'm not afraid of Rush Limbaugh...I'm afriad of his listeners

      --
      What?
    2. Re:It's deregulation by Orne · · Score: 2, Informative

      And to this, I disagree completely. Until the US deregulated, we had a vertically-integrated system that was completely comfortable at over-charging the end users (we people in residential load) when the true price of electricity was much lower. Did you know the average locational price of energy in PA last year was $0.027/kWh on the bulk market? How much are you paying per hour to your local utility?

      Deregulation simply gave the utilities the opportunity to operate in three parts: Transmission, Generation and Load Serving Entities. Thinking they could make a quick buck, some utilities sold their plants to the highest bidder... nothing wrong with that. But the governments wouldn't let anyone build new generators, so there's a fixed supply of energy with rising demand. Then, a vast majority of local governments went and capped the price which the LSE could pass on to their customers, and freed the prices the Generators could charge. So what happened? The governement regulations drove the LSEs out of business (price of supply >> price recouped), and the result is crashed companies and billions in debt passed on to the residents.

      However, Controllers like PJM, NYISO and NEISO adopted Locational Pricing, which did a great job in pinpointing where new generation was needed by raising prices in that area. What do we see today? Lower spot market prices than ever before. An over-capacity glut, where the market made it so desireable we'll have excess power in the northeast for another 4 years.

      I blame the politicians out west who did a half-assed job in only deregulating half the industry, because the parts they regulated caused all the problems. Funny thing, the areas of the country that tried to hang on to the policies of their vertical monopolies (California ISO, First Energy) were the ones that faulted in the deregulated system. This should be a warning to the Dominion's, TVAs and the Southern companies who lag behind...

  101. Most interesting paragraph...time to buy a genpak. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Our transmission system was designed and built to provide reliable service to our customers, not to be a superhighway for long-distance transactions to Canada and elsewhere," said Alexander. "Yet, on August 14, the margins built into our system for serving our customers were being drained by those transactions, with little or no reactive power support to the grid for those sales. The Task Force's solution to this problem would be to interrupt local customers in order to allow for long-distance bulk power sales.

  102. Re:Denies? not really by NaugaHunter · · Score: 1

    Translation: yeah, we had a problem, but the fact that our problem could take down the whole grid isn't our fault. Honestly, it sounds like a pretty stupid excuse, but then, that's just my reading of it.

    The way I read it he's actually taking responsibility for what he should. The First Energy screwed up is one issue. That their screw up produced such an blackout is a seperate issue. He's owning up to the first one, but pointing out that because of the overall grid problems anyone could have caused it, and in fact it could probably happen again in some manner.

    It is a slim difference and definitely hard to nail down. As an arbitrary parallel, say 12 people leave 12 different acids out in a lab they thought would be locked overnight. During the night, some one walks in and dumps one of them down the drain messing up the entire building's plumbing. While it's easy to identify which of the 12 the acid belonged to and say 'you should have put that away', it is also true that a) if the room had in fact been locked it wouldn't have happened, and b) any one of the 12 acids could have been used.

    Yes, that's a little different from the non-trimmed trees perspective, but the point remains that even if they or another company had had a legitamit, no-fault problem of the same magnatude the blackout probably would have happened.

    --
    R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
  103. Physics of the grid, money and boneheaded politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And now the power generators think the rate-payers shoulds subsidize them by building them a new grid so they can continue their enronesque shenanigans. Grid wasn't designed for it:

    http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.htm l

    The problems would be compounded, engineers warned, as independent power producers added new generating units at essentially random locations determined by low labor costs, lax local regulations, or tax incentives. If generators were added far from the main consuming areas, the total quantity of power flows would rapidly increase, overloading transmission lines. " The system was never designed to handle long-distance wheeling," notes Loren Toole, a transmission-system analyst at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

  104. I'll take that. by Dave_bsr · · Score: 1

    Let's put you up as the standard of win98se's proof from hackfulness. Let's post your IP to the world as such. Then we'll see.

    because, no one cares about cracking win98se. It's no fun. I could gloat if I broke my way into microsoft.com, or fsf.org, or whatever. I would then be "l33t." However, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOU AND YOUR win98 BOX OK? If for some reason someone did, then they probably could get in.

    As an aside, your strategy really is pretty good. You have a no-name computer, no reason to break in. You are on an EOL system - no one cares about breaking into 98 anymore so you are probably pretty secure from an obscurity standpoint. However, if for some reason you ever became more visible, well...let's just say that windows 98 isn't a good place to hide.

    --


    Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
    1. Re:I'll take that. by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      So are you taking the bet?

      Cause otherwise you just proved, probably against your will, that Win98SE is just fine for the home user, while whatever software the FSF was running on their file server was insecure and not suitable for visable targets.

      Is this what you intended?

    2. Re:I'll take that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't prove anything, except the fact the no one is going to send you a $1000 computer over a stupid slashdot post. Win98SE shouldn't be on a network without a firewall.

    3. Re:I'll take that. by fzammett · · Score: 1

      And what operating system SHOULD be on a network without a firewall precisely? If I extrapolate that "network" = "internet", that's a silly statement because EVERY BOX with ANY OS on it should be behind a firewall.

      --
      If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
    4. Re:I'll take that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree, a firewall is an EXTRA securtiy meaure, it cannot secure a system on its own (of course it can, but only if you sacrifice it's functionality, and if you do that, why not just turn off the machine completely ?).

      Also, let's do it. BUT you have something to prove, you help the experiment along. YOU get your ass over here, bring a pc, insert it into my network (which has an upling to the internet).

      I'll even let you have the downloads for IE6 uncompromised. After that you browse the web, and a few email accounts from the win98 machine.

      Now just so you know, I don't think you stand a chance, because there are a lot of win98 machines on this network (SE and otherwise). There is a SMB exploit which can be used directly on an out of the box win98 se to exec a program over the internet (and it will happily accept \\my_internet_server\subseven.exe), which can be loads of fun.

  105. To quote the song.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A-O-Way-2-Go OHIO.

  106. Re:California-style power crunches by HomerJayS · · Score: 1
    CA de-regulation was a perfect example of a half-assed attempt at deregulation. With energy costs 50% higher in CA than in the rest of the country, industry in the 90s threatened to leave the state if something was not done. What CA essentially did was to freeze the cost of energy to consumers, but allow the wholesale energy prices to be determined by the market.

    This was OK until the wholesale prices skyrocketted due to a combination of heat wave sent demand soaring, and the combination of a lack of new power plants built over the last 10 years, a drought that cut back the amount of hydroelectric power available, and outside power generators unable to supply enough power to the state.

    The utilities were forced to sell power at a loss (due to the regulated retail prices) and began to go bankrupt.

    Here is a summary of the CA situation.

  107. I've always thought... by c4ffeine · · Score: 1

    that this was an EMP. If I remember correctly, this whole thing started with an unexpected surge of power travelling down a line. Sure sounds like an EMP to me...

    I read an article about emp's in popular science/mechanics some time ago, and it mentioned this very thing.

    Would we be told if an EMP was used?

    --
    "73% of quotes on the Internet are made up" -Ben Franklin
  108. Actually, it was a Windows computer that failed by jmichaelg · · Score: 1
    You might want to read this post.

    More importantly, it may not have been Windows' fault given that tho box was under a denial of service attack. What the failure shows is relying on the Internet to deliver emergency messages is poor system design regardless of what OS is running. It also shows that the power grid can be brought down from a desktop when trees are falling due to high winds.

    If this DOS wasn't intentionally targeting the power grid, I wouldn't be at all surprised that the next one does intentionally target the grid.

  109. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it caused the loss of power to multiple states for several days... yeah, I'd be pretty ashamed.

  110. WRONG by /dev/trash · · Score: 1
    These are the very same Homer Simpsons who melted Three Mile Island.

    First Energy didn't buy Penelec until the 1990's. TMI melted down way before that.

    And how does deregulating the industry make trees ground a few high tension lines?

    1. Re:WRONG by bat'ka+makhno · · Score: 1

      It's not the trees, it's the lack of maintenance due to an almost total absence of liability for power companies that fail in their duties.

      You should've seen Energy Secretary Abraham masterfully dodge reporters' questions regarding possible penalties for First Energy's irresponsible conduct. It was unbelievable.

      So expect more trees to magically plunge you in the dark for days on end. That's our bright deregulated future, no pun intended.

    2. Re:WRONG by Orne · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the governing entity NERC (and its USA-only compatriot FERC) really have no muscle what-so-ever. Its a bunch of beurocrats who make "strong recommendations" all day, but they are not legally empowered by Congress with any authority to actually penalize any agencies that don't follow the regulations.

      If the senate had actually passed Bush's Energy Bill last year, then NERC would now have the power to force compliance and penalize non-performers.

      As far as tree trimming goes, that's a sign of hard economic times, one of the first programs to go. You are just as likely to see poor trimming in regulated utilities such Carolina Power & Light as you are in deregulated utilities like First Energy. Then you look at deregulated utilities like Excelon that are doing a better job now than they did while regulated, because lost transmission means constrained system == lost profit.

  111. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's remarkable how easily you are letting this roll off your back. I'm telling you you guys caused a lot of problems for us. We were blamed for it, noone ever appologized for blaming us, or for causing so much trouble for us up here.

    This is your reaction?!

  112. And by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 1

    He's also the kind of asshole who wants you to get a ticket for sitting down in public or putting "PIZZA CALZONES PASTA" on the sign over your Ray's Pizzeria.

    He does let you drink in public though, as long as you are rich.

    Tim

    --
    Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
  113. Total Microsoft! by twitter · · Score: 1
    I thought that it would be hard to place the blame based on the report, but I was wrong. Page 25 of the report has a description that has M$ all over it. While they don't mention Microsoft by name, I can only imagine that the failure was on dinky NT terminals in the control room and elswhere in the company:

    Starting around 14:14 EDT, FE's control room operators lost the alarm function that provided audible and visual indications when a significant piece of equipment changed from an acceptable to problematic condition. Shortly thereafter, the EMS system lost a number of it's remote control consoles. Next it lost the primary server computer that was hosting the alarm functions and then the backup server such that all functions that were being supported on thes servers were stopped at 14:54 EDT. ... FE's system operators remaind unaware ... [and used] outdated system condition information they did have to discount information from others ...

    Note also that they lost their state estimator due to poor data feeds and formats - a direct result of using M$ "standards".

    I imagine that the Blaster worm worked it's way onto the network, disabled all terminals and made the poor little GE system puke. The data was available in digital form, page 29:

    ...the operators can potentially continue to use the EMS ... via repetitive, continuous manuall scanning of numerous data status points located within the multitude of idividual diplays available ... it would be difficult for the operator to identifiy quickly the most relavant of the many screens available.

    They kept getting good data, even at their teminals, but the alarm program was broken.

    .."stalled" while processing an alarm event, such that the process began to run in a manner that failed to complete the processing of that alarm or produce any other valid output. In the mean time, new inputs - system conditions data that needed to be reviewd for possible alarms - built up in and then overflowed the process input buffers."

    It only gets uglier from there. Remote data terminals failing, datalinks down, all sorts of Microsoft induced problems. It's very easy, even without seeing the name to know who to blame. Only Microsoft could perpetuate such a widespread and massive failure.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  114. Mel Lastman quote: by big_groo · · Score: 1
    "Do you honestly expect the Americans to take the blame for anything?"

    I think this comment was more insightful than inflammatory.

  115. MOD PARENT DOWN PLEASE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a Quebecer, it's the worst piece of sh** I had ever read...

  116. If Microsoft were to blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This story would have 1500 comments by now.

  117. Blame Canada by ablair · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Looks like the headline-grabbers like Pataki and Bloomberg, amongst others, now have little to say about their quick denouncements of Canada for the whole power mess. Interesting that this is the same reaction pattern for the current Canadian internet pharmacy spat, where FDA commissioners are now publicly alleging Canadian drugs to be unsafe. Is 'mouth off first and ask questions later' now an official US political strategy?

    1. Re:Blame Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it happened in Canada, with your beady eyes, and your flappy heads. How can we trust people like you who have no morals?

    2. Re:Blame Canada by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. I, for one, welcome our new Northern overlords. As a regular Slashdotter, I am ready to help round others up so they can work in Toronto suburbs clearing snow all winter!

      --
      Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
    3. Re:Blame Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just be glat you're not experienceing out 'bomb first, then invade, and avoid asking questions until such time as the questions are irrelevant anyway' strategy!

  118. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by DenOfEarth · · Score: 1

    First of all, I'm not the cause of the problem (and I'm canadian too, eh), but don't think that it didn't cause a lot of problems for the americans too, as it surely caused more of a problem down south that it did up here. Besides, it's done with, and now the blames been put somewhere...should we find the last person who touched the particular computer that failed and give them a good berating, or what?

  119. Re:SCADA systems are *NOT ALWAYS* DCOM based by __aafutm5472 · · Score: 1

    Right on. Very informative. If I had moderator points, you'd get 'em.

    Thanks for the info!

  120. so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "According to the product specs, it is a Unix system with X Windows." that the client was running under a $23,000,000 custom conversion to win95?

  121. Re:SCADA systems are *NOT ALWAYS* DCOM based by stock · · Score: 1
    As additional info :

    http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/333505/2003 -08-13/2003-08-19/0
    http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/333513/2003 -08-13/2003-08-19/0
    http://www.automationtechies.com/sitepages/pid641. php
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cybe rwar/view/

    The last url is a Frontline report,

    "Slammer Worm to hit months after 911 attack" producers Michael Kirk, Jim Gilmore and with the aid of Detective Chris Hsung, Barton Gellman from Washington Post, Robert Cressey and Laura Wygod Website Coordinator Mountain View.

    Inside this program Richard Clarke, former Director CyberSecurity at the White House is interviewed. Clarke clearly holds Microsoft responsible for the Cyber Vulnerabilities which may be the cause for the power outage a couple months ago. The program discusses the power grid SCADA systems. During submitting his complaints to the white house and senate, Bill Gates responded by announcing Microsofts bug-hunting period in februari 2002. However Clarke's department was removed from the White House to Homeland Security in feb 2003. Subsequently Clarke was fired, but formally he resigned.

    Robert

  122. Re:Power outage traced to dim bulb in White House by acoustix · · Score: 1

    I know you love to bash the moron in the White House, BUT Bush wasn't in office when deregulation took place. It was the President with his pants around his ankles: Clinton.

    Believe it or not, Bush had nothing to do with it.

    --
    "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
  123. Good Post -- Matches Earlier Windows Failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your analysis appears to be dead on. It also matches this earlier analysis:

    http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2003/0,4814 ,84510,00.html

    > Blaster worm linked to severity of blackout

    > The W32.Blaster worm may have contributed to the cascading effect of the Aug. 14 blackout, government and industry experts revealed this week.

    > On the day of the blackout, Blaster degraded the performance of several communications lines linking key data centers used by utility companies to manage the power grid, the sources confirmed.

    > "It didn't affect the [control] systems internally, but it most certainly affected the timeliness of the data they were receiving from other networks," said Gary Seifert, a researcher at the U.S. Department of Energy's Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory in Idaho Falls, referring to flow-control and load-balancing data that's transmitted over public telecommunications networks. "It certainly compounded the problems" relating to the congestion of key communications links used by utilities to coordinate contingency efforts, Seifert added.

    Also note, in the same article, these references to earlier cases:

    > A spokesperson for the North American Electric Reliability Council (NERC), which is helping to spearhead a task force to study the causes of last month's blackout, declined to comment on the role the Blaster worm may have played. However, a NERC report dated June 20, 2003, shows that the Slammer worm had a significant impact on some utilities.

    > In one case, a server on a control center LAN running Microsoft's SQL Server wasn't patched, according to the report. "The worm ... apparently [migrated] through the corporate networks until it finally reached the critical SCADA network via a remote computer through a VPN connection," the report states. As a result, "the worm propagated, blocking SCADA traffic."

    > In a second case documented by Princeton, N.J.-based NERC, a frame-relay-based control network using Asynchronous Transfer Mode "became overwhelmed by the worm, blocking SCADA traffic."

    Note the similarity of those cases (network traffic due to Windows worm blocks SCADA traffic) to the current report.

    While a careful reader can pick out the information, the report seems to have gone out of its way to avoid naming names. Likewise, the posted introduction to the report seems to suggest that it was a Unix system that failed, which is false. Also note how this forum has been buried in posts that back up the false explanation. Why do I get the impression that Microsoft is spending a lot of money in order to manage this story?

    Maybe someone will write an article with a clear analysis, bearing the very headline that Microsoft is working so hard to avoid:

    BLACKOUT CAUSED BY WINDOWS SECURITY FAILURE

  124. Cleveland eye witness to FirstEnergy by peptidbond · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, I do not post much, but I thought this was worth it.

    The day of the black out, I was heading home to my house in Cleveland. Naturally, we were hit first. It was beautiful that night because my neighbor had his 12" telescope out in his yard.

    However, what is really intriguing is what happened over the next week. Everyday, driving to and from work I would notice all of these FirstEnergy trucks out on the street. No, they were not restoring power. THEY WERE TRIMMING TREES.

    The NERC report states that FirstEnergy failed to trim trees to protect the grid. FirstEnergy knew that they had caused the problem and they tried to cover it up.

    Also keep in mind that FirstEnergy owns the troubled Davis-Bessie Nuclear plant in Sandusky, Ohio. The nuke plant was shut down almost 2 years ago because boric acid had eaten a football sized hole in the reactor lid. It has been repaired but not re-started due to "safety culture concerns".

    Finally, my G/F is a field biologist. She is constantly doing field surveys for FirstEnergy. She always speaks of their poor land use and inability to maintain their lines. She has even seen over-heated lines drooping almost to the ground.

    --
    peptidbond I was crazy once....
    1. Re:Cleveland eye witness to FirstEnergy by Orne · · Score: 1

      Its well known to anyone who took a fields & waves transmission course, that you can tell where the transmission line faulted by measuring the wave reflection back at the breaker side. Correllating, I like the page in the report where they went to the site of the fault, and it said they found scorched underbrush, but not the tree... :)

  125. Mebbe Unix/X isn't the ideal choice.. by caveat · · Score: 1

    QNX baby!

    --

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
  126. ignore this comment by Outland+Traveller · · Score: 1

    Posting something only to undo some bad moderation choices.

  127. Re:Power outage traced to dim bulb in White House by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 2, Funny

    "but, but, but, 9/11 changed everything!"

    And whoosh! All of the good points Mr. Palast raised no longer apply.

    --
    [o]_O
  128. Microsoft is Scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I notice that your post has come down from +5, to where it now stands at +3.

    That's interesting, since your post is almost the only one that gets to the truth, and provides the necessary information to explain it.

    Microsoft really wants to hide the truth in this case. I guess, aside from the negative publicity, even Microsoft is frightened by the thought of being a defendent in a $billion lawsuit for negligence.

  129. There will Never be a Nationwide Blackout again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    How do I know this?

    Simple. I just spent $700 on a Honda generator. So it's pretty well guaranteed that the grid will stay 100% reliable from now on.

    Unless of course I forget to maintain it, so it rusts up. Then the power will take a dive on the coldest night of the year for sure.

  130. Bushs Buddies sure did it though by berwyn · · Score: 1

    http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid= 8131

    Firstenergy is going to walk, deregulation is going to continue. Bush isn't going to bite the hand that feeds.

  131. The USA is a lot bigger by tjstork · · Score: 1

    The US's biggest problem with maintaining a reliable grid is its size. The US has several times the surface area of France, and, it is simply exponentially more difficult to manage a national grid. So, like Europe, the country's power grid is divided into regions, and some are good and some are bad. MISO and NYPP are anemic, southern grids are terrible, and the northeastern PJM interconnect is incredibly good.

    In fact, I would take the US PJM interconnect up against France's power grid at any time. That covers about the same area as France, and has withstood several recent blackouts that occurred in other areas.

    PJM also has a burgeoning marketplace for congestion management products, dispatches real time prices at any point on its grid for anyone who cares to listen, and a number of other features.

    --
    This is my sig.
  132. The failing SCADA was an effect, not a cause... by dtjohnson · · Score: 0

    After looking at the report, it looks more like the GE XA21 SCADA network failure was not the primary cause of the cascading failure but more an effect of the failure. The key failure seems to be a software system callled the "State Estimator" (SE) that is used by the Midwest System Operator (MISO), a NERC reliability coordinator, to develop optimal solutions of for the planned operating level of all of the power generation and transmission equipment in the MISO area covering about 10 midwest states and 1 million square miles. It is not described in much detail but the SE seems to be an optimization tool using a linear programming model that gathers availability data for all of the major system components and load demand every five minutes and then calculates the 'optimal' use of those system components to maintain system reliability at the required level. The 'solution' of the model is then used to plan the operation of the overall system by sending the target operating levels to each facility in the system. So why did it fail? Two reasons. First, the model depends on having accurate availability information from each major system component. Status information is sent to MISO in Indiana by the "ECAR" data netork or by direct links. On the day of the failure, the direct link to a key transmission line was not working and the analyst had turned off the estimator to troubleshoot it. After fixing the problem, he went to lunch and forgot to put the system back in automatic mode where it would develop updated solutions. This situation existed for 2 hours from 12:15 to 14:40. When the estimator was switched back to automatic, it was unable to develop a solution because another key transmission line had overloaded and tripped and *its* new non-operational status was unknown to the model, apparently because the status of that line is assumed to be 'on' until told otherwise. This problem was not corrected until 16:04. The bottom line is that a critical major planning tool was not available for 4 hours for a regional generation and distribution system that absolutely required it's use to be operated successfully when the system power supply was very close to the demand.

    The SCADA system itself did not fail, but its alarm function did, which provides alarms to control room operators about system operational problems. The problem with the alarm function seems to be a case of too many alarms for the system to handle as the problems multiplied. The new alarm inputs built up and then overflowed the process input buffers. The alarm system just stalled while processing an alarm event and the alarm function stopped. Then, at 14:41 the primary server hosting the alarm processing application failed due to some combination of the stalling of the alarm application and the queueing to the remote terminals. The hapless backup server then was automatically activated and everything was was transferred to it, even the functional non-alarm stuff. The backup server failed after 13 minutes. Basically, the SCADA alarm system seems to have been massively overloaded (which shouldn't ever happen, of course) beyond the capability of the system design to cope with.

    The immediate cause of the failure seems to be the forgetfulness of the analyst who was operating the planning model. The significant underlying contributory cause seems to be a very poor regional operational design in which a critical centralized system planning tool was being used with insufficient backup and oversight. It looks as though both Unix and Windows escape blame. The SCADA system probably was doing far more than it's designers intended and probably performed heroically until it died. 'Aye Captain...I canna do no more.'

  133. Politics enter into it by t0ny · · Score: 1
    One of the big problems in the USA is that nuclear power was, at one time, such a hot-key non-issue. People might want to have electricity, but they dont want a nuke plant in THEIR neighborhood (its like prison- NIMBY).

    Another is how much influence the coal/oil industry still holds in this country. Coal power is SUCH a bad option, its amazing any modern society is still using it as much as America is. Its bad for the environment, its highly inefficient, and its bad for the environment. Its also really bad for the environment!

    Oil is likewise a poor option when compared to nuke plants, both in terms of efficiency and polltion. Modern nuke plants are amazingly safe, and produce comparitively little waste. But, that leads into another NIMBY problem of where to dispose of that nuke waste!

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

  134. Re:Denies? not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't quit your day job... given that you obviously know so little about how these type of high-performance networks work, I suspect its time for you to come up from the basement and go have some supper.

  135. Transmission Grid Stability by akc · · Score: 1

    Although this blackout occured in the US, it has not been the only one. Italy, Scandinavia and the UK have also suffered similar problems.

    This has been sending political shockwaves all over the place as the realisation that the pressure on costs on the network owners has meant that contigency margins have been reduced. In the UK (where I live) the public face is one of calm, but behind the scenes there is considerable concern.

    What it shouldn't mean though, is a step back to the old days when networks were considerably over engineered. Care should be taken that those who advocate this don't put us back 15 to 20 years and hike the price of energy as a result.

    What I think is needed is much more sophisticated control systems that recognise the domino effect built in as a safety measure and actually proactively shutdown parts of the networks in much the same way as firemen make firebreaks to stop a rampant fire. This would keep control of a situation that currently just runs out of hand, and would prevent both the widespread loss of power, but also a much faster return to normality.

    1. Re:Transmission Grid Stability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just so you know, stopping > 10.000 volts (of non-negligeable amperage) is not something you do without a BIG energy wasting machine, or explosions.

  136. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by goldstein · · Score: 1

    You are talking about a natural monopoly - nobody is going to build a second set of power lines to deliver power to your house. Also, the networks are all interconnected - as actually happened, a failing network can (and will) pull the others down. So, even if you are willing to pay more for higher reliability, you don't have that option (short of moving/emigrating).

  137. Re:The problem is (AGAIN) government regulation by eddie+can+read · · Score: 1

    That assertion has been questioned, I think reasonably.

    The story told here is a familiar one, resembling many similar stories, giving it the ring of truth.

    How much do you really know about power supply? Are you a God of power supply, or are you trusting the assertions of people who you trust know what they're talking about? I can't, myself, claim to know enough about power supply to say definitively whether this or that aspect is a "natural monopoly", but my general experience with assertions that this or that is a natural monopoly has led me to be skeptical of such assertions.

  138. Unix system or network? by carpus · · Score: 1

    What were the effects of MS Blaster BLASTING its way through the networks between power sites, disrupting the communication which would have stopped the cascading effect? I'm still betting on that being the root cause.