One more G4 for the PowerBook?

PurdueGraphicsMan writes "Much as we'd love to see the next PowerBook revision include a processor evolution to the mighty G5, we know it's not that simple. The Register provides some sound reasoning (and boatloads of model numbers and voltage specs) as to why we'll probably see a 1.5GHz G4 PowerBook before any G5 PowerBooks materialize." I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower. Oh, and I don't want to burn my lap.

Comments

Relax, Pudge.

[grub]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package [...] and I don't want to burn my lap.

Not to worry, the Viagra they spam isn't contraindicated against the "Grow your Willy 4 Inches in 4 Days" stuff.

Re:Relax, Pudge.

[Anonymous Coward]

See, I was just going to ask if that means that he has a large, yet powerless, package...

That's an inferiority complex that I haven't heard of...

Go Motorla

[Goyuix]

Even though we all like to look at IBM as the hero of Linux and their cool chips... a little competition from Motorola can only be good for us consumers!

Re:Go Motorla

[millahtime]

Motorola is out on the PPC processors. They lost that gig and IBM does it all now. Motorola just isn't producing right now.

Re:Go Motorla

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

My father in law works in a manufacturing plant for a parent company. They don't really do that much manufacturing. The parent company outsources over 95% of all their manufacturing needs. What they are really for is bargaining leverage. When the parent company negotitates, they have the ability to say "screw you, we'll do it ourselves." That alone drives costs down with all their partnering manufacturers.

The situation with Motorola is not the same. But Apple can always leverage the idea of using Motorola chips again to hedge any abuse by other chip manufacturers, although they hopefully won't need to.

Re:Go Motorla

[HellsAngel]

Don't they make the G4 processors in the eMac's, iMac's, iBook's, and Powerbooks sold by Apple currently? They're still very much producing them if you ask me.

Re:Go Motorla

[cygnus]

someone mod this down.. it's just plain wrong. the PPC family is WAY bigger than what Apple uses. plus, Apple still uses the G4 family chips from Motorola in most of their product lines.

Re:Go Motorla

[Lars T.]

Yeah, they only released a new PPC processor to further confuse you and the braindead moderators that gave you an "informative".

Need the G5

[BWJones]

I would certainly expect the G4 to be around for at least a little while in portables (perhaps even a dual G4 in the 17in Powerbook), but there is a decided pressure to put the G5 in a portable. When I moved from a dual 1Ghz G4 to a dual G5 at 2.0 Ghz, the difference in performance was striking. For those users who are constantly pushing the limits of their hardware with compiling code or are heavy users of scientific code or even Photoshop, the G5 is a must have. And even though PurdueGraphicsMan would feel guilty, I would not, knowing that my research could go even faster than before.

The real beauty of the G5 is that not only do we get the raw power, but that power is coupled with an OS that is the easiest to use for both the basic user (undergrads or grad students coming into our labs to learn science and the research process) and the advanced user (computer science faculty we are collaborating with to build custom tools for data visualization and processing).

Re:Need the G5

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

And even though PurdueGraphicsMan would feel guilty, I would not, knowing that my research could go even faster than before.

Actually, that somewhat dorky statement about feeling guilty was relentlessly added into my post as though I said it. I would never say something that dorky.

Re:Need the G5

[finkployd]

Actually, that somewhat dorky statement about feeling guilty was relentlessly added into my post as though I said it.

Actually it only looks that way if you lack understanding of how quotes work. Such as the grandparent poster ;)

Finkployd

Re:Need the G5

[proj_2501]

NOT APPLICABLE HERE

The G5 benefits from nicer architecture as well as a higher clock speed.

Mod parent -1, Irrelevant.

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

"Insightful"!? I think not.

PPC chips (and, to a lesser extent, AMD Athlon chips) are both capable of doing more per cycle than the current offerings from Intel. That's as true with the G5 as it was the with G4, only now the G5 is running at clock speeds which are a little closer to the pack.

This is why the speed of a dual-G5 tower is so amazing. Faster CPU, two of them, running on a very fast motherboard results in a computer which is far more powerful than anything the Dell Dude can offer as an alternative.

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo dude, I've been looking back through your posts and it appears you have some serious anger management (or self valuation) issues going on. Perhaps the grad students are more productive on OS X than they are on other OS's. Perhaps the CS faculty (who apparently are valued for their opinions on computer science, thus their faculty positions) prefer OS X?

Re:Need the G5

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

Why spend the time learning an inferior OS when you can open one right out of the box and use it without learning? Sounds like nerd drivel to me.

Re:Need the G5

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Grandparent poster didn't say "they can't learn to use another OS," he said, "this way they can use the OS that's easiest to use." I'm a CS grad student. I'm competent with several OS's including Linux, BSD, Solaris, and [sigh] Windows. I still prefer using a Mac, because even though I can get work done in other OS's, my work goes faster when I'm using OS X.

Re:Need the G5

[drooling-dog]

This is sure to get modded down by this crowd, but...

This (usually baseless) need to have more and more power on a laptop - and to pay top dollar for it - has to be the marketing triumph of the century (well, maybe after bottled water). My old 400MHz IBM still does everything I ask of it, and if I had the choice I'd rather double the battery life than the processor speed.

But thanks, anyway, for creating a plentiful secondary market for nice laptops. That's how I got mine...

Re:Need the G5

[Nazmun]

Thats not true... comments by the editors have been added as they have always been. Everyone should know that your text is the quoted stuff in italics. How can we make it more obvious?

Re:Need the G5

[Fascist Christ]

The real beauty of the G5 is that not only do we get the raw power, but that power is coupled with an OS that is the easiest to use for both the basic user ... and the advanced user ...

Forget that. My wife can use it (iMac). Whether to put in a movie or play Wolfenstein, she hasn't managed to mess it up (wish I could say the same for the PC).

As far a the G5, apple is in a good position. They can forcefeed us 64-bit processors, by putting them into the iMac. They can license out a "G5 Optimized" emblem - a great selling point for software. As far as Average Joe is conscerned, G4 to G5 is as logical as going from Pentium 3 to Pentium 4.

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

PPC chips (and, to a lesser extent, AMD Athlon chips) are both capable of doing more per cycle than the current offerings from Intel.

And you know that because you read it 5 years ago on some Mac Fanboi website, right? Well, things change.

Fact is, the G4 was never all that much better than a Pentium-III, and does far less IPC than either a Pentium 4 or a Athlon64. Currently the Pentium-M kicks the G4's ass for portable use (battery life & performance). This is a very obsolete chip that's on a hobbled 2001-era motherboard.

Re:Need the G5

[alienw]

I sure hope you don't tell that to your boss when you get a job. It pisses me off when people in engineering and CS classes whine about having to learn to use a major OS, like Solaris or Linux. It isn't easy. If it was easy, you would be earning the minimum wage.

Re:Need the G5

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

Actually, I already use Linux and Free BSD at work, and like me, my bosses don't put nerd pride above common sense. OS X is better because they've spent the time on making it easy to use. Once someone spends that same time on any of the Open Source OSes then they can be considered good. But until then it doesn't matter how powerful they are if only select people know how to use it. They aren't hard to use, but it doesn't make any sense to spend time learning an OS if there's one that's just as good (if not better) that's much easier to use.

Just my $0.02

Re:Need the G5

[mse61]

My P1 75MHz laptop does everything i need it to do...including run a wireless card...

Re:Need the G5

[localman]

Yup -- since you don't use need it, everyone else must be a fool to pay for it.

I guess the fact that I use my laptop as a portable recording studio isn't a reasonable justification? Even the top of the line 17" 1.33 Ghz can't always keep up with my realtime processing needs.

You're right in general about people buying more power than they know how to use, but there are also a lot of us who actually need that power.
Personally, I am itching to get my hands on the next major powerbook revision. I doubt I'd spring for a measly 166Mhz bump, but I need all the power I can get. Definitely getting a G5 when they're available.

Cheers.

Re:Need the G5

[The Almighty Dave]

What do you mean by inferior?

Runs on less platforms?
Doesn't run as many applications?

Any OS requires learning. More to the point, the applications that run on the OS have to be learned. Just because you are familiar with the system doesn't mean everyone is. You can pretend that Macs are intuitive, easy to use, whatever. In reality, anyone with no computer knowledge or someone coming from another system will have to learn how do things on a Mac.

There is no "right out of the box and use it without learning".

Re:Need the G5

[slycrel]

As a mac programmer, I've got an 800 Mhz TiBook. I need to go on-site with some of our customers occasionally, among other things, and a laptop is a must. Our codebase compiles in around 10 minutes for me. We're getting a round of new G5's here shortly for the desktop crowd in office, and with the "prototype" machine, our codebase compiles in ~3 minutes as opposed to 15 minutes on the older (granted, somewhat dated) desktop machines. It very much makes a difference to some of us. For general web surfing and home use it's probably not a big deal, but there's definitely a push for it in other areas.

Re:Need the G5

[technomancerX]

Umm, you obviously don't do much with your portable. I do software development and in my spare time I also work on electronic music and video editing. So yes, I could in fact use a G5. Some people do actually do more than surf the web and write Word documents on their laptops.

Re:Need the G5

[Mr. Piddle]

Computer graphics will always be cutting-edge. As CPU/Ram/Disk increases in capability, it'll be fully utilized by content creators immediately. So, I entirely agree that a 400MHz CPU is a absolutely great home/office desktop, but it makes a mediocre game/movie development workstation by modern standards.

While graphics could be called a niche market, be aware that it includes MCAD/CAM, too, which isn't trivial by any measure. Basically, if it runs OpenGL, then there is always room for faster and bigger hardware.

Re:Need the G5

[badasscat]

This (usually baseless) need to have more and more power on a laptop - and to pay top dollar for it - has to be the marketing triumph of the century (well, maybe after bottled water). My old 400MHz IBM still does everything I ask of it, and if I had the choice I'd rather double the battery life than the processor speed.

I said the same thing about my old 300mhz Celeron IBM Thinkpad until about a month ago, when I finally realized I was deluding myself, as you probably are. No offense, but to an extent I think this is a case of not really knowing what you're missing, and it's been true of public perception of every incremental speed increase in PC land in general, not just in laptops.

No doubt you think of your laptop as being the perfect machine for a certain task or tasks. And at 400mhz, it does those tasks well. Maybe you use it for programming, or word processing, email and web browsing. Maybe you even store your pictures and play your mp3's on it (though I doubt a 400mhz laptop has a very big hard drive). I did these things on my 300mhz machine too. Eventually it got to the point where even web browsing was ridiculously slow compared to my desktop, so I upgraded.

And with a faster laptop, especially a dramatically faster laptop, you are able to do many more things that you wouldn't have considered a laptop suitable for before. My new laptop has become my primary PC - I do everything on it, from photo and video editing to gaming to watching DVD's, dual-booting Linux and Windows (couldn't before; hard drive was too small) plus all the things I used to use my laptop for. Simply being a laptop is not the limiting factor that you probably think it is with an older machine.

Oh, and you will likely get better battery life with a new machine. Mine gets around 4 hours and it's not even a Pentium-M.

While I'm at it here, I want to say something about the following in the original article posting: It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Is this a swipe at PC (in this case meaning non-Mac) users, or is it some kinship with fellow Mac users (including Macs in the term "PC" as it technically should be)? If it's a swipe at PC users, it's at worst inaccurate and at best debateable, as test after test has shown common x86-based CPU's to be at least as capable as the fastest G5 chips on a variety of real-world tasks and in synthetic benchmarks. Even a Mac-biased site such as this one shows older, slower x86 compatible chips to be neck and neck with the fastest G5 Apple still sells (and faster if you move to the games page) - and there are faster x86 chips out now (Here is a slightly more up to date comparison that focuses on 64 bit chips.) In laptops, a 1.7ghz Pentium-M runs neck and neck on most tests with a P4-3.2 desktop chip which would probably put it about on par with a single-CPU 2.0ghz G5 (I don't believe anyone has made this comparison yet, since you can't get a G5 in a laptop). And most Pentium-M laptops trump any Apple laptop in battery life. The Pentium-M is truly a revolutionary mobile chip - far more important by almost any measure than the 1.4ghz G4 being talked about here (sure wish I had one - I went on the cheap with a P4-M).

I know I burn through karma like a wildfire every time I post something like this but it needs to be said, as there are a lot of assumptions made by people out there, along with plain old myths, that just are not supported by any real-world evidence. The equivalent of PC urban legends (and yes, I do post about real UL's too!).

Re:Need the G5

[Octagon Most]

There is no "right out of the box and use it without learning".

Except for NippleOS.

Re:Need the G5

[andy55]

I guess the fact that I use my laptop as a portable recording studio isn't a reasonable justification? Even the top of the line 17" 1.33 Ghz can't always keep up with my realtime processing needs.

Good points... as you use yours for a recording studio, i use my 17" as a intensive dev environment, with Metroworks Codewarrior, Dreamweaver, Office X, and photoshop all w/ stuff open (and compiling) at the same time -- when you're a shareware dev, you wear a lot of hats, and having that power and instant access to those apps is key. In fact, i just dropped in a 512MB module last week.

The guys does have a point about marketing depts wanting us to think we need to spend all-out for *the* latest hardware in a laptop. Granted, doing hard core recording studio stuff (ie, make-or-break/critical real-time processing) in a laptop would be a good reason for a portable G5, but now we're talking a real minority of users.

Separetly, the heat problem is an interesting one. My 17" already burns a hole in my lap when the CPU is maxed out, so the engineers have their work cut out for them for the heat load of a maxed out G5. whew.

Re:Need the G5

[drooling-dog]

Umm, you obviously don't do much with your portable.

No, it's really just a travel machine. E-mail, Web, mp3s, Open Office (it runs Linux), programming, etc.. If I was using it as a desktop replacement, then yes, it would be far too slow and I would have replaced it long ago.

And no, I wasn't suggesting that nobody needs >2 GHz on a laptop; for video work and the like, you clearly do. But for many (most?) people processor speed has become more of a dick-wagging thing, like horsepower in automobiles or the number of blades in your razor. We want it even if we don't have a use for it, and even if it penalizes us in power consumption and battery life. That's just the consumer culture we all live in.

Now, if someone wants to give me a G5 to prove me wrong, I'll gladly accept it...

Re:Need the G5

[Gr8Apes]

This (usually baseless) need to have more and more power on a laptop - and to pay top dollar for it - has to be the marketing triumph of the century (well, maybe after bottled water). My old 400MHz IBM still does everything I ask of it, and if I had the choice I'd rather double the battery life than the processor speed.

To be honest, I'd have to say it's not baseless need for more people than you might think. There are a number of things I'd like a laptop for:

1. Replacement for my desktop, allowing my desktop to become a server
2. A surrogate for my other desktop, freeing me to work from living room, and hence, keeping the wife much happier... (Married folks will understand this one;)
3. A lightweight solution to carry with me to handle photography needs on the road (storage, editing, and sending)
4. Nice compartmentalized means of handling my personal data as compared to work data

There are others, but these should be a nice top 4 reasons on why a "powerful" laptop is a nice thing to have.

Re:Need the G5

[bhtooefr]

You have a sensitive lap. Even Centrino laptops put out more heat than a G4 laptop, and AFAIK, the G5@90nm puts out about as much heat as a G4.

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

Pudge is a little new, so his methods are more transparent than the older slashdot posters (I refuse to call them editors until they actually do their job - they are an insult to anyone who paid for a subscription)

That comment was a thinly-veiled (on the nanometer scale) troll to start a flamewar. For every user entering into an IBM vs Apple argument, Slashdot can pretty much bank on around 5-20 ad viewings, and nothing gets people (mostly teenagers) all riled up more than PC vs Mac. On top of that, it encourages a good number of platform-agnostic post-teens to post diatribes on "Use the machine that's best for your needs".

Add ads.osdn.com and ads.slashdot.org to your hosts file to fight this trolling in slashdot articles. The posters have simply gotten too fat and lazy from ad revenue, and show little to no respect for us, their users.

If I had a subscription, I'd be cancelling it.

Re:Need the G5

[Steveftoth]

I guess the fact that I use my laptop as a portable recording studio isn't a reasonable justification? Even the top of the line 17" 1.33 Ghz can't always keep up with my realtime processing needs.
I think that you're taking his comment too far.

He's saying that it's a marketing success that they have convinced the average person that they need lots of power in a laptop. Not that people who want that much power are dumb.

There will always be people who need more power in a portable package like yourself. But they are not the average case. Not everyone wants to use their laptop as a portable recording studio.

Re:Need the G5

[Shanep]

This (usually baseless) need to have more and more power on a laptop - and to pay top dollar for it - has to be the marketing triumph of the century

Some people do things with their machines, which have some parts operating at full occupancy for extended periods (more than just the quick bursts that perhaps you require).

They normally appreciate a machine which can get something done in a fraction of the time or give them a realtime interface to what they do.

(well, maybe after bottled water).

Bottled water, is almost always much better than tap water. Even in Sydney Australia, I will become ill from drinking "clean" tap water. I have done double blindfold tests in this regard to make sure it's not psychological. Rain water is certainly not perfect and even drinking spring water from areas beyond the populated fringes has it's dangers.

The World is becoming more and more polluted and bottled (or otherwise filtered) water is becoming a requirement for heathly living, at least in cities.

You are not the yardstick.

Re:Need the G5

[proj_2501]

now now, the mach 3 has given a WAY better shave than the sensor excel did AND the cartridges last 2 weeks instead of just one, so it's not a dickwaving contest.

unless you meant that goofy schick quattro.

Re:Need the G5

[Beek]

My 12" PowerBook runs around 40-45 Celsius with normal, light use (once it's been going for a while), and it's comfortable on the lap... But once I start doing compiling and stuff, it goes to about 50, and it's a little toasty. Doing anything processor intensive, it maxes out at 62 Celsius, and it's uncomfortable on the lap. Read the support forum on Apple's website, you'll see lots of people talking about PowerBook heat issues.

I don't think it's because of the G4, more because tiny form factor...

Re:Need the G5

[bhtooefr]

Ah, you have a 12" model, that's the problem. I've heard that the larger screen models, due to their larger size, don't have the heat dissipation issues of the 12". Basically, if you took two identical laptops, except for their mobo, one being a Mac G4 or G5-90nm mobo, one being a P-M mobo, they'd put out about equal heat.

Re:Need the G5

[BWJones]

Actually, that somewhat dorky statement about feeling guilty was relentlessly added into my post as though I said it. I would never say something that dorky.

Yep. Sorry about that and not getting back to you until now. (its been a very busy day) I was not entirely serious about my statement, and re-reading the post, I guess I see how that statement was mis-interpreted and was actually posted by Pudge, being funny.

Best,

Re:Need the G5

[soft_guy]

Sure, there are fast Windows PCs out there, but what's the point in going fast when you're going in the wrong direction?

Re:Need the G5

[phcrack]

My 12" iBook G4 will give me a good 5 hours playing CDs and coding, and up to 7 if I'm just coding with little disk activity. I have yet to see a PC based laptop that can compete with it for battery life.

I don't run bench marks, but at 800MHz I get better response and a cleaner feel out of the iBook than most people I know with Pentium-M 1-1.5GHz. Might just be that OS X is so well matched to the hardware, but when apps like photoshop or games like Tony Hawk 4 run comparably one has to wonder if some of the stories are a bit better than myths.

Re:Need the G5

[jbolden]

Depends on whether you want a portable desktop or a battery driven notebook more.

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just plugging away at my little Toshiba 3.06Ghz 17" notebook and compiling programs while recompressing video and watching a movie in a little window. I understand that speed is important, but if I'm doing 3 things at once, I can't imagine needing more computing power to do it with. Everything works well enough.
I have a few Macs in the house, I like Panther as well. Unfortunately, due to the requirement of having a mouse plugged in at all times, I can't find myself comfortable with the system. I find that using the mouse hurts my hands. So I just type it instead. I have had a huge problem locating software and technical information for the Mac. For example, how can I enumerate all the characters available within a font as well as how can I read the characteristics of the font well enough that I can smoothly transition during a font switch between a Times New Roman and a similar font which would display Traditional Chinese without using ATSUI font switching which may be the slowest API function ever to be on the face of the planet.

I'll stick to Windows and Linux until the documentation quality of OS X is better than mediocre (and that if I'm feeling generous)

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

This is completely off topic, but maybe you haven't considered that your body is now so acclimated to this incredibly scrubbed water that you can't handle tap water?

Personally, I think that this is a bad idea for you. If all you drink is this borderline distilled water, you basically have opened up your body to infection because you aren't giving it any time to see infection anymore. Your immune system is like a muscle; it needs to be used to keep in shape.

There've been recent studies on children showing that when huge amount of household cleaners as used in their early childhood, they do not have as strong a resistance to common bacteria as children who grew up in moderately "dirty" households. Basically, these children's immune systems never learned what bacteria were, so they never developed enough to fight them.

Just a little food for thought.

Re:Need the G5

[rthille]

So, upgrading from my 233MHz G3 (beige) to a new Dual-2.0 G5 would be noticible? :-)

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, yeah.

Seriously though, if you do anything other than email or internet access, you would be absolutely stunned.

-BWJones

Re:Need the G5

[Bob Davis, Retired]

Holy CRAP you're elite! I can't figure out how to compile code with Photoshop. TEACH ME!

Re:Need the G5

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the heads up. I agree with you, BTW.

This is completely off topic, but maybe you haven't considered that your body is now so acclimated to this incredibly scrubbed water that you can't handle tap water?

I moved to the scrubbed water because I couldn't handle tap water.

Personally, I think that this is a bad idea for you.

I tried taking tap water on an ongoing basis, but the sickness just keeps getting worse and worse.

If all you drink is this borderline distilled water, you basically have opened up your body to infection because you aren't giving it any time to see infection anymore. Your immune system is like a muscle; it needs to be used to keep in shape.

Yeah. I've heard that in India, asthma is quite uncommon, theoretically due to this type of effect.

Out of interest, in December 1991, there was a large blue-green algae bloom in the Hawksbury River, NSW, Australia. I live in Sydney. I was on holiday nearby and had fish for dinner (in a restaurant). I was later hospitalized with an extreme bowel infection which almost killed me. I was passing clear jelly cubes and the pain was faint inducing. There were a lot of people in the hospital with the same symptoms (one woman said the pain was worse than childbirth). Ever since then, I have had Irritable Bowel Syndrome and Lactose Intollerance.

I hear ya...

[Chuck Bucket]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package

Ummm...am I on the wrong website?

CB

Re:I hear ya...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are on the right website. Only that you are reading with wrong thoughts.

Re:I hear ya...

[PseudoThink]

Right we site...Pudge only feels guilty because he'll need that extra power to run his Windows emulator at even a marginal speed.

Re:I hear ya...

[DetrimentalFiend]

Either it was intended to be a joke or the editor has bought into Apple's marketing. G5's are fast, but they're not the fastest. Saying "It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower" is just plain ignorance. An equivalent statement would be "Having a Pentium 4 would make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a Apple computer."

To be honest, if someone gave me a G5, I'd definitely use it. But, if I was given a choice, I'd take an AMD 64bit based PC over a G5.

Re:I hear ya...

[thefinite]

I thought the point was that you will soon be able to get a G5 in a *small* laptop. I know AMD is releasing their 64 bit chip for laptops, but for desktop replacement laptops. When the G5 hits the PowerBooks, there is every indication that the laptops will stay just as slim, trim, and light as they are now.

Re:I hear ya...

[alienw]

*When* apple releases the G5 in a laptop, there will be dozens of similar x86 ones out there.

Re:I hear ya...

[Chuck Bucket]

right, and the AMD64 based notebooks will likely have as much, or more (depending on Job's spin) power than Apple's. then they'll bring up the, you can't run OS X on AMD, so Apple is still the best choice!

DISCLAIMER: I run Linux on an iBook!

CB

Re:I hear ya...

[Anonymous Coward]

so? OSX (just the OS, not the hardware) is really not that much better then anything else.

Re:I hear ya...

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

There's something that people are missing about the PowerMac G5. They didn't just put a faster processor in the machine and release it, they totally redesigned everything in the computer. For the x86 world to catch up there are going to have to be some changes.

Re:I hear ya...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're obviously still sucking the Torvald-Teat, which mandates that it's "ok" to have to recompile your kernel to get that sound card working, and that crappy UI's are "a-ok". Try OS X and you'll see that the "freedom" you've been torturing yourself with AIN'T WORTH IT.

Re:I hear ya...

[Anonymous Coward]

My sound card works great and I've never recompiled a kernel in my life.

I was just wondering, what do you have to do to a Mac when you upgrade your soundcard?

Re:I hear ya...

[Pidder]

I don't follow. As someone said, x86 is just as fast or faster than the G5.

Re:I hear ya...

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

Read this: http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

Re:I hear ya...

[drsmithy]

There's something that people are missing about the PowerMac G5. They didn't just put a faster processor in the machine and release it, they totally redesigned everything in the computer. For the x86 world to catch up there are going to have to be some changes.

They redesigned the G5 and brought it to *parity* with x86 machines. Prior to the G5 (and still in the iBook, PB, iMac and eMac), Macs were lumbering along with technology 1 - 2 generations behind.

Re:I hear ya...

[Valdrax]

Actually, while I'm a big Mac fan, and I've longed for a chip that brought the PPC back over x86 for speed, the PowerMac G5 really was playing catchup to the PC world for motherboard architecture.

DDR RAM? Been there for over 5 years.
8 GB memory? AMD boards beat us by a few months.
Hypertransport? Been used for over 2 years.
AGP 8X? Been used for a few months before.
Dolby 5.1 sound on board? Been there for over 5 years.
USB 2.0? Been there for over 2 years.
PCI-X slots? Been there for over a year.
ATA-133? PC has been there for over a year with built-in hardware RAID 0, 1, 5, 01, & 10 support that the Mac still doesn't have.

Now...
SMP on a single chip? Mac beat the PC there.
Firewire 800? Mac beat the PC there.
...but neither of those really help the internal processing speed. (Neither does USB 2.0 or Dolby 5.1 sound.) The PowerMac G5 is just getting up to parity. The new 90 nm G5s will make a jump ahead for a short time, but Intel and AMD won't be sitting still. I hope that Apple doesn't sit on its rear on the PCI Express standard and gets us ready for it. With NVidia and ATI pushing it for graphics, I doubt that they can afford to.

Re:I hear ya...

[10Ghz]

SMP on a single chip? Mac beat the PC there.

Huh??? Are you talking about Symmetric Multithreading (Hyperthreading as it's known in Intel-land) or multicore CPU's? Intel-CPU's have the former, Mac doesn't have either.

Flamebait

[hendridm]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

As long as we're throwing cheap shots, as least we don't have to plug in an external device to get a second mouse button. I'm surprised you didn't make a BSoD joke. I know I can never get enough of those!

In the venerable words of Ace Ventura: La-hooo Za-her

I sure hope the bitch-slap feature requires some sort of ActiveX component so pudge can't seek revenge. Zing!

Re:Flamebait

[Mr_Matt]

As long as we're throwing cheap shots...

I don't know if pudge was really throwing a cheap shot: after all, he was talking about his own small package or something. Combined with the fact that the post is obviously Mac-zealot fodder, I just thought this kinda, y'know, was natural.

/dodging bitch-slappage now... :)

Re:Flamebait

[Tsiangkun]

It only takes one mouse button to open the terminal. --Tsiangkun

Re:Flamebait

[mcwop]

There is a second mouse button - it is labeled "Ctrl".

Re:Flamebait

[sammy baby]

As long as we're throwing cheap shots, as least we don't have to plug in an external device to get a second mouse button.

Whoa! Your PC has an integral mouse? How does that work?

Every PC I've ever used, I had to plug in an external device just to have a mouse at all, let alone a second mouse button!

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as we're throwing cheap shots, as least we don't have to plug in an external device to get a second mouse button.

Last I checked, with the exception of laptop users, everyone has to plug in an external device for the first mouse button, let alone a second.

And besides, building your own PC requires that you buy a mouse just as well as a Mac user has to buy a mouse with a second button. I fail to see the difference.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Feh. Apple panseys. I don't need no steenking mouse. [Ctrl]+[F2] gnome-terminal [Enter]

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

> Whoa! Your PC has an integral mouse? How does that work? Every PC I've ever used, I had to plug in an external device just to have a mouse at all, let alone a second mouse button!

First of all, this article is about laptops, right? Second, it was humor.

Re:Flamebait

[rigmort]

Watch a proficient Mac user work. You'll notice that the left hand is on the keyboard at all times, copying, pasting, opening, closing, undoing, answering dialogue boxes, AND CTRL-CLICKING to get contextual menus. It's a different way of working; not necessarily better or worse. For me, it feels right.

Besides, my right-click is reserved for Expose.

Re:Flamebait

[Shados]

I though they were talking of lap-tops when they said "small package". Keeping that in mind...last I checked, lap-tops tend to have built in pointing devices, commonly known as "mouses", even though they arent exactly it...

Re:Flamebait

[GeckoX]

Stating the obvious I know, but here goes anyways!

It's a laptop dude.

Re: Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I checked, with the exception of laptop users, everyone has to plug in an external device for the first mouse button, let alone a second.

Last time *I* checked, this post/article was about laptops.

And besides, building your own PC requires that you buy a mouse just as well as a Mac user has to buy a mouse with a second button. I fail to see the difference.

Who said anything about building anything!? He was comparing how a G5 laptop would be far superior to anything on the PC side. Laptop, dingus. LAPTOP!!

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch a proficient PC user at work, and you'll notice he/she is productive regardless of the speed of his/her rig. It was supposed to be humor , the mouse button thing has been done to death, just like the BSoD thing.

Re:Flamebait

[prockcore]

It's a different way of working; not necessarily better or worse. For me, it feels right.

Control clicking can be argued one way or another (I personally hate it, especially since the ctl key on my powerbook is so damn sketchy). But I don't know how any mac user can live without a scrollwheel.

Having to install SideTrack in order to get my powerbook's trackpad to act like it does by default on XP is pretty lame.

Re:Flamebait

[bluGill]

really? Been a long time since I've seen a laptop PC without a mouse. Come to think of it, the only laptop PC I've seen without a mouse (type device) really was a laptop, and not a notebook, which is technically the proper term for what everyone calls a laptop today. (Those old laptops weren't worth much... 286, blue LCD. Dos only)

Of course if you really want to be that technical I've never seen a notebook with a mouse. Trackballs, trackpads, and trackpoints are/were common, but no actual mice.

Re:Flamebait

[Espectr0]

Just THINK for a minute.

What is easier and more intuitive? To RIGHT CLICK using a mouse, or to right click using a KEYBOARD?

Clicking belongs to the mouse. Using the keyboard makes it all more confusing.

Face it, a two button mouse will always be better than one button mouse.

Having said that, i switched my laptop to a powerbook just to have OSX, and i love it. But the one button mouse is a joke

Re:Flamebait

[Elwood P Dowd]

Every laptop PC I've ever seen has had a second mouse button that is completely broken by design.

It is impossible to conveniently use the second mouse button on a trackpad. There is no good way to do it. With a mouse, obviously, you can put your index finger on the left button and your middle finger on the right button, and it's totally effortless to click, or click and drag with either finger. I cannot defend Apple's regular mice except to say that they look cooler. And that they are forced to use them because of their OS's focus on laptops.

But advocating a PC trackpad? Are you kidding? I'd *rather* be forced to use it with two hands (like with the control key), but unfortunately two handed operation is also impossible. I usually have to use my ring finger if I want to right-click-drag.

Re:Flamebait

[emilymildew]

Wait, which is it?

Mac users are too stupid to use Windows, or Mac users are smarter than you because they can use the Ctrl-Click instead of a second mouse button?

(Not saying you said the first one, but you know, it's an argument out there.)

Oh, and right clicking is the only clicking for those of us who are left-handed. How about "opposite-click"?

Re:Flamebait

[Bazzargh]

It's easy to ctrl-click with one hand - hold down ctrl with your left hand, and bang your head repeatedly on the mouse button.

As a fairly recent switcher too, I bought Warcraft III with the powerbook so I could get into the way of the one button mouse with some fun rather than frustrated attempts at work. Its pretty much second nature now. One thing you notice is that you don't need to right click much anyway - OS X doesn't emphasise context menus as much as Windows.

Clicking belongs to the mouse. Using the keyboard makes it all more confusing.
Face it, a two button mouse will always be better than one button mouse.

Under windows I use a 5 button MS optical trackball, with a scrollwheel. I have them mapped to Escape, Meta, Alt, Control, and Shift[1]. Because none of those belong on a keyboard ;)

-Baz

[1] In case you're wondering, the scrollwheel adjusts the strength on the coffee machine. I installed a ratchet so it only turns one way.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir or madam, are a god and/or goddess. Please offer up T-shirts and bumper stickers immediately. :)

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

> Every laptop PC I've ever seen has had a second mouse button that is completely broken by design.

Then you haven't seen a ThinkPad. A TrackPoint clit works just fine in 2 & 3 button configs, even while dragging.

Re:Flamebait

[Carthag]

Having to install SideTrack in order to get my powerbook's trackpad to act like it does by default on XP is pretty lame.

By extension, would it then also be lame that you'd have to install some other third-party app on Windows XP to get the trackpad to act like it does on MacOS X?

Re:Flamebait

[MoneyT]

arrow keys == scrolling controll

Re:Flamebait

[prockcore]

By extension, would it then also be lame that you'd have to install some other third-party app on Windows XP to get the trackpad to act like it does on MacOS X?

Yes, it would be lame.. but you don't have to. The trackpad on OSX is braindead. In order to get the trackpad on XP to act like OSX you'd just turn off all the features.

Re:Flamebait

[MoneyT]

Yeah, i second that. The second button on PC trackpads is a horrible design.

Re:Flamebait

[Fascist Christ]

Face it, a two button mouse will always be better than one button mouse.

... for those with one hand.

Seriously. Unless you are clicking for pr0n, you can use your left hand.

One button is more intuitive anyway. I put my 6yo daughter and 3yo son infront of a pc, and they would press the wrong button too often. Then I bought an iMac, and there's no problem.

Most things can be done with one button. It would make it a lot easier for my mom, too, if she didnt have five buttons to choose from with each click.

It is also more efficient to use two hands. A good typist doesn't use only one hand.

Re:Flamebait

[zx75]

Guess what? I constantly use my keyboard at the same time as my mouse as well... I just prefer to spread work out between all of my fingers, which is why I have a second mouse button. (and a scroll wheel, and its button, and a third near my thumb)

Re:Flamebait

[MoneyT]

Two button trackpad, no hardware required:

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/12800

Re:Flamebait

[Elwood P Dowd]

Oh. Good point. My criticism definitely only applies to trackpads.

Re:Flamebait

[Dr. Evil]

How do you ctrl-right-click? Like with an xterm?

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Feh. Gnome pansie. Write your own Window Manager, pussy.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd argue it's worse. There are times when may want to just sit back and use your mouse to do everything. Sometimes 'thinking different' doesn't always equate to 'better', and I believe this is one instance of such a case.

Re:Flamebait

[memco]

You are precisely correct, right clikcing and clicking in general belongs on a mouse. Ctrl-clicking however, is a joint process one that doen't take much effort or intelligence to use. It's especially nice for those of us who would like to eliminate the mouse. GO KEYBOARDS!

Re:Flamebait

[emilymildew]

I put the mouse on the other side of the computer. Thus, the first finger of my left hand "right" clicks the mouse (see, if it were a two-button mouse, it would have left and right sides)...

Oh, nevermind. I can't expect the entire world to change for 15% of the population. Stupid lefties.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Buddy, unless you drop me a note telling me otherwise, I'm adding this quote to my SIG file for Slashdot.

Re:Flamebait

[SiliconJesus101]

Well, I just bought a Logitech 4 button dual optical mouse for my Mac and it works fine right out of the box. You know, you aren't stuck with the one button apple mouse. I have buttons 3 and 4 mapped to Expose' 'tile' and 'desktop' (if that's what they are called) and button 2 is a standard right mouse button.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch a proficient Mac user work. You'll notice that the left hand is on the keyboard at all times, copying, pasting, opening, closing, undoing, answering dialogue boxes, AND CTRL-CLICKING to get contextual menus.

On Windows, you can do all that while holding a sandwhich or a cup of coffee in one hand.

Re:Flamebait

[GiMP]

This is one the the reasons I bought a powerbook. The two most important things for me when buying a laptop were the trackpad and the keyboard.

Having had a Dell Inspiron 3500 in the past, I remembered how much I hated the 2 button trackpad. In Linux I couldn't paste without XFree86's 2->3-button emu (yuck). I couldn't find any decent 3-button trackpad - plus I'm left-handed so I needed the "right" button to be as big or bigger than the "left" button. This alone proved to be nearly impossible.

I finally decided on a Powerbook G3 /w firewire (pismo). It only had one button so I no longer had the problem of accidently hitting the wrong mouse button (a problem I had with the Dell), and the keyboard was awesome.

Linux/PPC has a sysctl for mapping keyboard codes to the mouse buttons. I've used this to map fn-ctrl and fn-alt to the middle and "right" buttons. I love it, I couldn't be happier and I'll probably never buy an x86 laptop again for the simple reason that they are completely incompatable with left-handed people (those that are not comfortable with using the trackpad with their right-hand, anyway).

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure it'll be easy for him to drop an anonymous person a note. Or maybe he should check SIGs to find out who you are?

Re:Flamebait

[aldoman]

I agree.

However, pretty much every USB mouse works and OSX is great with USB - better than Windows and Linux by far.

So get yourself a nice 5 button mouse like me and click away to heaven.

Re:Flamebait

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Looks more like a key on the keyboard than a mouse button to me.

Re:Flamebait

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Not a very good scrolling control. You have to move your right hand back and forth between the mouse and the arrow keys, unless you use the mouse left handed.

Re:Flamebait

[afidel]

IBM T Series should work fine for you, it's non-handed, has THREE buttons (well for the pointer stick, only two for the drag pad but I hate those things anyways) and the keyboard is full sized so touch typists have no problems with it.

Re:Flamebait

[Eccles]

No, arrow keys are a very poor substitute. In iTunes, for example, arrow keys will move one song per key press. A quick flick of the scroll wheel, in contrast, zips you up or down multiple lines, and is proportional to how much you move the wheel.

Also, the arrow keys are on the wrong side of the keyboard for efficient use that way, assuming your right hand is on the mouse.

Re:Flamebait

[Unregistered]

Have you used osx? Didn't think so. It's designed for a one button mouse. To get a context menu, just click and hold. ctrl or rt click does the same thing. I think apple's missing out more b/c they lack a scroll wheel (but so are many pc laptops) than a right mouse button.

Re:Flamebait

[Elwood P Dowd]

Just THINK for a minute.

What is easier and more intuitive? To RIGHT CLICK using a mouse, or to right click using a KEYBOARD?

Given that we're talking about laptops, maybe you should think a little harder. I agree, right clicking with a mouse is more convenient than with a keyboard. This is why I have a Microsoft mouse plugged into my mac. However, right clicking with a trackpad is significantly less convenient than anything up to and including typing with your tongue. While mobile, I am happy to use my left hand to hold the control key. When using PC laptops, right clicking is very very difficult to me. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

Re:Flamebait

[SPYvSPY]

I know it's lame to follow a funny post with a serious one, but I've been bothered by the earnest complaints about a second mouse button for a long time. In my experience, contextual menus (which is presumably what people want those second buttons for) are implemented poorly in Windows 2000 and the apps that run on it. I know this because my Thinkpad's left button broke and I've been trying to work with only a right mouse button for a few weeks. There are just some situations where you can't right click to get what you want. Sure, it's often the application's fault, but it still sucks.

Re:Flamebait

[drsmithy]

Watch a proficient Mac user work.

Proficient Mac users buy a multibutton mouse and map the extra buttons to things like Ctrl+Click, Expose, etc. I don't know many "professional" Mac users who haven't bought some third-party pointing device.

Personally, I'm willing to agree with Apple's reasoning that a single button mouse is easier and more intuitive for novices. I'm just annoyed I can't get a multibutton mouse *from Apple* as an option.

Re:Flamebait

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Except on the PowerBook. The arrow keys are right where they need to be on my PB 12inch. Everyone has their own way of doign things. Ones who said Mac power usere sover one hand on the keybaord are correct. My usual browsing stance is my left hand near the apple key and my right hand bopping between the trackpad and the arow keys. Eventually, I willl get a BT mouse and a Apple BT keyboard, but I need a place to set this up that I can leave them set up. Very rarely woudl I take either the mouse and KB with me.

Re:Flamebait

[AKnightCowboy]

But I don't know how any mac user can live without a scrollwheel.

Are you kidding? I've tried to find a modern mouse without a scrollwheel because I fscking hate them but EVERYONE makes them now. My Logitech Trackman is going on the fritz and I wanted to get a replacement.. do you think anyone sells the same exact (dare I say perfect?) trackball format? Thumb controls ball, three full mouse buttons, no wheel. I certainly can't find one short of buying a used one off ebay which is what I'll be doing.

Re:Flamebait

[Lars T.]

What is easier and more intuitive? To CLICK using a mouse and to MODIFY-CLICK using a keyboard, or to click using one mouse button and to modify-click using anotherbutton for some things and a KEYBOARD for others?

Face it, no mouse has ever enough buttons. Might as well keep it down to one.

Re:Flamebait

[Fascist Christ]

Yeah, and that's another great thing about it. No driver installation. Plug it in on the fly.

Re:Flamebait

[Junior J. Junior III]

The one-button mouse problem is even worse on a Mac laptop because you can't simply ditch the detachable USB pointer and replace it with a more suitable tool. On a laptop you have an integrated trackpad, and you're stuck with it. Forever.

Re:Flamebait

[System.out.println()]

I cannot defend Apple's regular mice except to say that they look cooler.

Unfortunately, this is not really defensible either.
Fortunately, replacement mice work perfectly and are pretty cheap.

Re:Flamebait

[TheLittleJetson]

we don't have to plug in an external device to get a second mouse button.

not like you truly care, but this is a GREAT piece of software. check out sidetrack -- my left mouse button is touch-pad tap, my right-mouse button is the physical button. took about 2 hours to get used to, but is a godsend for one-handed REAL mousing. :-)

Re:Flamebait

[Carthag]

Ah. Thanks for the reply. I haven't used trackpads in a couple of years, so I honestly wouldn't know how either worked, heh. Also, I see we're both flamebaiters now. Woo!

I know what you mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package...

Yeah, it is far more satisfying having that much power in a large package in that general region.

Re:I know what you mean...

[NorwBlue]

Oh, and I don't want to burn my lap.

was it just me, or did more of us suddenly realize that someone has been buying those pills we love to hate the spam from?

Watercool

[blackmonday]

The heat dissipation issues need to be resolved before the G5 comes out. The next powerbook (and maybe powermac!) will almost surely be water cooled.

Re:Watercool

[and by]

Those issues will largely be solved by the recent die shrink at IBM.

Re:Watercool

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sitting on my lap, I wonder where I can get a handy source of water for it?

Re:Watercool

[millahtime]

"The next powerbook (and maybe powermac!) will almost surely be water cooled."

Water cool a laptop??? That would make it very heavy. the Piping, pump and water itself would add pounds to the weight of the laptop.

Re:Watercool

[Rufus211]

you mean like this one? Too bad it never saw the light of day afaik.

Re:Watercool

[MouseR]

PowerBooks are already cooled by heat collectors and gaz pipes, wich is far more efficient at moving heat than by using a heat-generating water pump.

Re:Watercool

[pdcryan]

Water cooled? I hear the G5 gets so hot - they need to use that "Cool Water" cologne by Davidoff.

Re:Watercool

[sunami]

The next powerbook (and maybe powermac!) will almost surely be water cooled. but how will you cool down the water?

Re:Watercool

[Slack3r78]

Somebody please mod this disinformation down. There are no 'heat dissipation issues' with regards to the G5. Yes, Apple does use a heatsink that's about 5" tall and a ton of fans in the G5 tower, but that's done to keep noise down, but because it's running scorchingly hot. I got to thoroughly check out a Dual 2.0GHz G5 at a LAN party last weekend, and the machine is near silent under normal use. I can't say that about my Athlon or the P4's I use at school.

If you're still not satisfied that's the reason, pull the side cover off a G5, then pull off the plastic panel that seperates the different airflow compartments - the computer will sense that the panel's been removed, thus disrupting the airflow and kick all the fans into high speed. You'll suddenly have the machine go from being near silent to about as loud as you'd expect a PC to be.

The G5 towers are amazingly well engineered machines, and it's really getting tiring to hear people mistake Apple's emphasis on quiet computing (extremely well executed) be mistaken for a non-existant heat problem.

Re:Watercool

[cyfer2000]

heard from someone they will be nuclear powered either.

Re:Watercool

[jo_ham]

Word.

I have a Dual 2Ghz G5 on my desk and it is extremely well put together and pretty damn quiet.

It weighs about 40 pounds, but it is made almost entirely of 3mm aluminium.

Even when exercising it hard (encoding with compressor, rendering in FCP) it barely puts out more than a gentle warmth at the back. When the fans do ramp up to a higher speed the air feels pretty cool. It really does dissipate heat extremely well.

According to IBM, the pair of 970's I have draw about 50W each, so 100W total - nothing to worry about at all.

IBM have reduced that 50W figure with their new generation, with the 970FX chip down to about 13W or something like that.

Re:Watercool

[blackmonday]

OK I guess I've been schooled. There's no moderation option for -1 Dumbass.

But then why the long wait for a G5 laptop? It seems that with the g5 Powermac available people would wait to buy a powerbook until they could get a G5.

I guess my question is, if it's not a heat issue, where's the G5 powerbook?

Re:Watercool

[Bob Davis, Retired]

You don't actually need a pump to water cool something. Heat piping and a condenser / heat sink should do the trick.

Hot cold.

[the web]

...I don't want to burn my lap.

Liquid coolant please? I love to see that. Would there be disposal problems, like a fridge?

Re:Hot cold.

[BigBir3d]

Like a laptop battery?

Guilt?

[heironymouscoward]

Not exactly the state of mind of most people when they purchase that ultra-compact incredibly powerful new machine using the PHP's lost credit card. I hate to ask this, but what kind of terrible Freudian traumas did you suffer as a child?

Mother: Pudge, are you surfing in there?
Pudge: Yes, mom, now leave me alone?
Mother: Two-hand surfing, Pudge! And stay away from newsnet!
Pudge: Grrrr... mumble. Thank god for peer-to-...
Mother: And no Kazaa either!
Pudge: Damn!

G5 in laptop prolly a little wait

[millahtime]

The G5 will prolly wait a little longer to be in a laptop as the heat and power issue. I am sure they will get that down with the new power management in the G5 but it might take a bit.

Re:G5 in laptop prolly a little wait

[Unregistered]

i think the new g5 chips pretty much solve both those issues.

Lap?

[Lord of Ironhand]

"I don't want to burn my lap.

Is that what they call it these days?

Too easy...

[ryanvm]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package

Don't you mean, "on a small package"?

Re:Too easy...

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

Again I'd like to point out that I didn't make that statement. Pudge graciously added it to my post... :)

Re:Too easy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just the fact that you are pointing it out makes me suspicious!

Re:Too easy...

[Anonymous Coward]

damn you, i was almost to the end of this before reading your reply. I thought i was going to get to make the first comment about his little dick.

Re:Too easy...

[sootman]

I think Pudge meant "and a small package."

Too hot for Sweden?

[Stack_13]

Well, I hope that they sell the low-power version of the laptop in the Swedish market.

Re:Too hot for Sweden?

[Bob Davis, Retired]

Read the article. His penis was red, developed sores that produced prodigious amounts of pus, and then scabbed over.

HE GOT THE CLAP!

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[mrtroy]

While you wait for your G5 on your lap...
"why we'll probably see a 1.5GHz G4 PowerBook before any G5 PowerBooks materilize"

You harness the full ONE POINT FIVE ghz of power from the next powerbook...us PC tower users will never see such power.

And, speaking of humour...my prof's PowerBook core dumped yesterday as he was lecturing

It was fun to see the scrolling text take over the screen from the GUI

Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[merlyn]

Of course, it had to happen. Within two weeks or so of almost every Apple purchase I've made over the past 11 years, Apple has announced a much better unit for less money.

And I just bought the 1.25Ghz AlBook, last week.

I'm thinking of starting to take up a fund, to help me buy any existing technology that people want upgraded. Then, it'll be a matter of two weeks and, ta-da, new tech is now available!

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[hrbrmstr]

Likewise, I'm not sure if I should order the 12" PowerBook I was going to get this week. I'm now considering holding off, but my G4 tower needs a companion!

Decisions, decisions...

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[rampant mac]

"Of course, it had to happen. Within two weeks or so of almost every Apple purchase I've made over the past 11 years, Apple has announced a much better unit for less money."

Apple will let you "trade in" any purchases you made, if a newer model is released. I can't remember if it's for 14 days or more that the coverage applies to. I believe it's 14 days though.

Just call the Apple store if a new model is released, like tomorrow, and they can hook you up. I did just that when I purchased my 17" Studio Display (price dropped $200 3 or 4 days after my purchase, and I got my money back).

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[easter1916]

My 17" G4 1GHz AlBook arrived Saturday -- bought it refurbed (i.e., in perfect condition) from Apple last week for only $2300 (taxes and shipping included).
I am in love with this machine.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[kannibal_klown]

Same thing happened to me. I bought my PowerBook (my first Mac) last Monday.

However, I love the thing. I don't care if they somehow manage to release a G5 next week. I don't like to by rev 1 products, and my 1.25 G4 Powerbook is my computer of choice. I only boot up my PC at home to play the occasional "WarHeads" or when I need to get use Visual Studio .Net.

They'll have to pry my precious PwerBook from my cold dead hands.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[LoudMusic]

A friend of mine did that during the G3 to G4 Power Mac transition. I told him everyday for a month "don't do it, you'll only regret it". He bought the blue G3 and the next week they announced the G4.

Apple is notorious for that. Perhaps people will begin to learn and not make the same mistakes. Or, 11 years later, maybe they won't (:

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[sammy baby]

Easy there, guy. Motorola is just announcing the new chips today. I'd guess you have at least a couple months before Apple announces a new PowerBook model, and a month or two after that before they ship.

(I speak advisedly: I'm typing this from a TiBook purchased in May of 2003, about 4 months before the shiny 15" AlBook you're using was announced.)

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[itomato]

You'd think that after 11 years, you'd have figured out Apple's product upgrade schedule. ;)

Thinking back (but not too hard), it's been pretty much the same methodology since Stevie came back.

Speed-bumped/updated current models appear 4-7 months before entirely new machines. This is stretched out over Consumer, Pro, and Pro-sumer lines.

It's kind of like how automakers, well Ford anyway, introduces their cars. They put out the schmancy new Lincolns about the same time they upgrade the Taurus, which is about the same time they let loose a new compact. The high and low end products are the most daring, while bread and butter stays a little conservative.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[kannibal_klown]

It's like that everywhere though. Hell, I bought a Dell Inspiron 3700 the moment it came out, and less than a month (or maybe 2 months) the 3800 came out to replace the 3700. The 3800 was faster, sturdier, and better.

Apple keeps their mouths shut about releases for a good reason; it keeps their sales constant. If they said "Next month we're releasing a 1.5 GHz PowerBook," then their powerbook sales would come to a screeching halt until then. But if they keep their mouths shut, then people will continue buying PowerBooks at the same rate.

Sure, it sucks for the consumers, but only if they let it bother them. I bought my PowerBook last week (my 1st mac ever) knowing full well that something better was on the horizon. But I don't care, as I'm more than content with my PowerBook (hell, I'm giddy).

In the tech world, it happens. You can either wait-and-wait-and-wait-and-wait, or you can buy it now and be happy with it.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Echnin]

I refer you to the MacRumors buyer's guide.

Days Since Update: 161 (Average = 163)

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[/dev/trash]

I'll buy that 1.25Ghz Apple for 10 cents on the dollar.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Anonymous Coward]

In any industry where manufacturing is concerned; I would think that the very last model in a line before a new line is introduced would be robust to say the least. The manufacturer would have had a chance to get all the kinks out by the time a model has been around for a while and they also have figured out how to get every bit of performance they can.

I go out of my way to get stuff just before a model change. That goes for cars, computers, and sporting equipment. And I never have any issues I can't take care of myself. Regular maintainence will handle the rest.

-Morgan

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[hrbrmstr]

cool. thanks for the URL. i'd kill (actually, horribly mame) to know when the next PB release is. i really want one of the 12" powerbooks.

is the 1GHz combo model so bad?

sigh.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Moofie]

You mean that there's always going to be a better/faster/cheaper computer coming out in the next few months? SOMEBODY STOP THE MADNESS!

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[LoudMusic]

Well ... yeah, ok so that wasn't the most intelligent comment. But with Apple it seems more drastic than others, and very sudden. They do larger increments, which I think is a good thing, but it almost seems random. And they change the hardware completely. How many Gx generations have there been in the past four years? And Pentiums? What about motherboard spec changes? They're support Apple Video Connector, no VGA. Now they're supporting VGA. Now they're not. Now they're doing DVI, now they've created their own ADC. VGA is back, nope gone again. And that's just the video.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Moofie]

Seems like if you pay a bit of attention, Apple releases a product and then revs it in around six months (the speed-bump). Sometimes they rev it again, sometimes they replace it. Nothing too terribly confusing.

And as far as processor generations, well, there was a G3, and, um, a G4. And a G5. Not too bewildering.

I don't remember any Macs that supported VGA or DVI out of the box, except for some that had an upgraded video card. All the Powerbooks will support all those video types through the little dongle connector.

I really fail to understand how Apple's product lineup is more complicated than, say, Dell's (with their bewildering array of laptops all called the "Inspiron").

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I have one with a Superdrive and absofreakinlutly love it. Friendly UI is there when I want to work. When I want to play, X11 is there as well as xterm and Terminal.app. Buy it. Apple MAY speed bump thigns, but a G5 isn't in the cards....yet.

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[TheLittleJetson]

..not to mention, it was quite some time after the G4 debuted before the G4 powerbook came out. yet roughly 20 minutes after the G5 debuts, we hear "cool, when can i get it in a powerbook?"

Re:Guaranteeing Apple speed/feature bumps

[Echnin]

Small note: The Mobility Radeon 9200 in the iBook beats the GeForce FX Go 5200 in the PB... For gaming, the iBook might thus be better

But, anyway, though my 800 MHz iBook is fine for me, it's always worth waiting for an upgrade. Really, 1 GHz today or 1.2 GHz next month?

Faster or longer battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple needs the G5. Powerbooks used to have a great advantage over x86 laptops in the battery life department, but that is no longer true. The 15" and 17" models typically only last 3 - 4.5 hours on a charge, the 12" maybe a little longer. iBooks last longer, but are a bit underpowered. With the introduction of the Pentium-M, there are now x86 laptops that are both faster and last longer on a charge (like the IBM T41). The Powerbook G5 cannot come soon enough.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[millahtime]

Maybe apple just needs better battery technology first. It usually takes quite a bit of time for apples advances to show up in the compedators anyway.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[CuriHP]

I really fail to see how using a chip that draws more power is going to extend battery life. Unless I'm missing something obvious?

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[Polo]

I don't see why they just don't put (slightly) larger batteries in them. It would be interesting to know how they balance battery life vs size.

Strangely enough, my older 15" tiBook has a 61-watt hour lithium-ion battery. It has 33% more capacity than the new 15" albook battery, which has a 46 watt-hour battery.

The 12" albook has a 47 watt-hour battery and the 17" has 58 watt-hour battery. The iBook 14" has a 61 watt-hour battery and the iBook 12" has a 50 watt-hour battery. This is all from the apple store specs on the replacement batteries.

Why don't they just put a 100 watt-hour battery in the 17"??

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I really fail to see how using a chip that draws more power is going to extend battery life. Unless I'm missing something obvious?

The G5 hardly draws more energy, and would put Apple back in the speed race with the Pentium-M again.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[Drakonian]

3-4.5 hours? In your (my) dreams!

I get 2.5 on my 12" PB, max. Usually closer to 2.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

I get 2.5 on my 12" PB, max. Usually closer to 2.

That's pretty awful, Apple claims battery life up to 5 hours. According to CNET, you can get 2.4 hour while continuously playing DVDs.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[timeOday]

They could put a *car* battery in the 17"

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[beakburke]

Every month or two you need to condition the battery by running it all the way down, until it forces itself into sleep mode, then plug it back in a charge it all the way up. If you've had your PB/IB for a couple months try it. You might be surprised.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[onya]

>The Powerbook G5 cannot come soon enough.

What, you mean just like the G5 on the desktop?

The G4's sucked ass. The G5 has finally put them i the same game as other hardware vendors.

Re:Faster or longer battery life?

[airdrummer]

my 15" Al only gets 2.5 hrs:-( nad something must b fubduck w/sleep: i put it 2 sleep w/~50% charge, and less than 20 hrs later the battery was dead:-(

2004/02/26,18:00:00 2.700Ah/3.912Ah=69.0%

Feb 26 18:44:42 localhost mDNSResponder[230]: mDNSResponder Sleeping at 20795057

Feb 27 15:56:57 localhost syslogd: restart

tomw ttyp1 Thu Feb 26 16:04 - crash (23:52)

Re:Google cache links

[avalys]

Unless apple.com has been Slashdotted (which is doubtful), those links are completely useless.

asbestos?

[Peartree]

You just need to buy yourself a pair of asbestos pants :)

Re:asbestos?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is asbestos only a carcinogen when inhaled, or will I need some tinfoil boxers along with my hat?

Re:asbestos?

[Anonymous Coward]

You just need to buy yourself a pair of asbestos pants

Most people that have posted seem to be seasoned trolls, and most probably already own a pair or two.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[millahtime]

Is your tower a 64bit?? Are we talking benchmarks like rendering where the 64bit really makes the difference??? What benchmarks?? The G5 makes it's biggest impact in the high end math areas like rendering, or for Engineering guys in Matlab, or other high end design tools. That's where it's plus side and killer performance is. That's why video guys like it so much. Not for how fast the web browser loads.

Hypocrite!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package...

You know you want it.

Cache money

[jargoone]

Only 512K of cache? No thanks. I'll stick with my Centrino with 1MB. I try and try, and just can't kill the battery in it.

Now if the bastards at Intel would just release the fucking wireless driver for Linux already, I'd be a happy camper.

Re:Cache money

[Anonymous Coward]

ndiswrapper.sf.net

Re:Cache money

[ncr53c8xx]

Now if the bastards at Intel would just release the fucking wireless driver for Linux already, I'd be a happy camper.

You won't have to wait long.

Poor performance

[iJed]

I really hope that Apple do not release another G4 based PowerBook. Although I am pretty doubtful that this rumour is true.

The 166MHz bus in this thing is hardly going to be able to feed a 1.5GHz G4 CPU since this poor bus performance already cripples the current models. At least it seems they have got the L3 cache back. That should at least make things a little better.

I think Apple is more likely to use these faster G4s in eMac and iBook models rather than in PowerBooks. I think the iMac will also go G5 soon too.

This won't be the last notebook G4

[amichalo]

There is no doubt the G4 will remain a staple in Apple's notebook lineup through 2005.

It amazes me that my 1st generation 400 Mhz G4 Powerbook is mostly hindered by lack of RAM (256mb installed) than processing speed. I have no doubt a 1Ghz G4 iBook would satisfy the computing needs of a liberal arts college student. Perhaps for those in engineering or graphics classes they would push the envelope, but teh G4 remains a great chip.

I would rather enjoy the cost savings and power consumption savings of a G4 laptop than the cool factor of a G5 because I just don't have that great a need.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[valkraider]

You know, I feel similar except my concern is not for "speed" but "investment". I really want to untether myself from my desk, and a 1.25Ghz 15in Powerbook seems like the exact beast I want. And it would be a great improvement over my iMac 800Mhz G4 (processor speed and bus speed and graphics card).

But the issue isn't whether the G4 is good enough, or whether I need a G5. By all accounts, for what I do, the G4 is great...

BUT - and there is always a but, right? - If I am going to drop $2500 on a high end laptop, I want it to last a good while - not be out-dated in two months... Why would I spend that much money, even on an upgraded G4? I wouldn't. We bought a 12inch 1Ghz PowerBook the day they came out - and that will be the last G4 we buy. My next purchase will be a G5 Laptop, and it would be today if Apple released it...

Apple has great product life. My 500Mhz iMac G3 runs fabulously - and I bought it for $1100 4 years ago! I just don't want to buy an "expensive top line end of product line model" just to have the new one come out in a couple months - because even if they have another speed bump in the G4 PowerBooks - they WILL release the G5 PowerBooks this year.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[misterpies]

>>I have no doubt a 1Ghz G4 iBook would satisfy the computing needs of a liberal arts college student.

The computing _needs_ of a liberal arts student could be satisfied by a typewriter. The only reason a student needs a powerbook is as a babe magnet, which means they're really only necessary for geeks.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[amichalo]

But will you be able to justify to yourself the prmium price tag for a G5 over a G4?

let's make some guesses since no one knows, that a G5 laptop, in some type of configuration, could be had for $2,999. We know you can today purchase a 15" 1 Ghz PB for $1,999.

For the price premium (50%), you get a laptop you assume will last more than 50% longer as an investment in technology.

I feel that the better investment is to buy a mid-range system where you will get several years out of it, but then you get to go shopping sooner because you didn't spend as much in the first place.

My own formula for hardware expenditures is $250 per year for desktops, $500 per year for portables. If I spend that much, I expect that much life out of them. It has been a good rule thus far and allows me to have a great system - never top of the line but never obsolete - while working within my budget.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[pvera]

If you want a babe magnet, get a 12" iBook G4. Girls find it irresistible. Buy a Powerbook and all you will attract is going to be nerds. Why do you think the iBook looks like a chiclet?

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[Slack3r78]

You're assuming that the G5 is going to be significantly more expensive than the G4. We already know that IBM seels the G5 to Apple for less than they're buying G4's from Moto, so it's quite possible that G5's could be introduced into the Powerbook line without any major price hikes.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[jo_ham]

^ mod this guy up.

My iBook attracts more girls than a Justin Timberlake vs Brad Pitt naked jelly wrestling contest.

I have to fend them off with pointy sticks.

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[valkraider]

Exactly. Also, no matter what it costs Apple to build - they will have to keep it competitive with the competition. Sure, for $78,000 you could get a KILLER laptop - but not many people would buy it...

Sure, this *IS* Apple. They will over-price the initial line to take advantage of early-adopters and good press and all that... But they will still have to be somewhat normalized with the economic reality of what it is they are selling...

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[System.out.println()]

Don't fend them off, send them my way! Us poor (rich?) Powerbook users don't get enough chicks. :-(

Although the smell would probably scare them off....

Re:This won't be the last notebook G4

[MacTitan]

My Pismo 500Mhz seems adequate for most tasks short of working with video. Ripping MP3s take about twice as long as I'd like, but that hardly make my laptop unusable. I don't have any trouble with 100MB+ photoshop files either.

Several incremental enhancements have kept me happy, none of which are CPU upgrades. First 768MB of RAM. Second, a 5400rpm drive (fluid barring made a huge difference in noise reduction, even 1 1/2 yrs. later (the original drive got loud 2 months after I got it). And finally, Panther made a big difference.

The biggest disappointment is the inability to take advantage of Quartz with only 8MB of video memory.

There are few things the average pro/sumer needs CPU power for that they will actually notice. Editing/renderring video is the most notable. Audio editing will be taxing for many. But much of what people percieve a need for speed, is really dependant on hard drive performance.

How much would a G5 really enhance ripping audio/video compared to a G4 velocity engine optimized procedure.

So, get yourself a iBook or whatever laptop floats your boat, just make sure it has a decent graphics card that suits your needs. For most people the CPU isn't that important. And get a laptop with the crappiest hardrive available built in and rip it out as soon as you unbox it. Put it to good use in a $30 ext. firewire case and do yourself a favor and get a $250 60GB 7200rpm 2.5in drive for your new iBook.

As for the G5 90nm, IBM isn't supposed to be at full capacity until mid 2005. Until then Apple will have to ration where these chips go. I doubt they could meet demand if it goes in the PowerMac, Powerbook, iMac and xServe between now and this summer. Maybe we'll see it in the 17 in. first, but that could be troublesome from a marketing perspective.

iBook

[valkraider]

My bet is that the next PowerBook sports a G5, while these new G4s are used in the iBooks.

I would expect something like this:

Powerbook G5, 2Ghz, 1.8Ghz, 1.6Ghz
iBook G4, 1.5Ghz, 1.33Ghz, 1.1Ghz

With the new line of iBooks having the bus speed/architecture of the current PowerBooks (essentially I would think the current Powerbooks be given the new G4, changed into a white plastic outfit, and rebadged iBook - well, basically excluding the 17inch model of course...)

Re:iBook

[Anonymous Coward]

With the new line of iBooks having the bus speed/architecture of the current PowerBooks (essentially I would think the current Powerbooks be given the new G4, changed into a white plastic outfit, and rebadged iBook - well, basically excluding the 17inch model of course...)

So in other words they are the same but different!!

Re:Give this a miss

[z-kungfu]

Crack smoker! The powerbook is still way ahead of the PC's. My 667 DVI Powerbook runs rings around the 2.4 Dell I have from work, it's just silly. And over half of the Win apps just about kill the whole system. I want a G5 laptop as much as the next guy, but the G4 is still the best game in town.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[yomegaman]

Please attempt to explain to us PC lusers why 64-bit processors are faster at rendering or Matlab than 32-bit ones. I could use a good laugh today.

More embedded

[msgmonkey]

Motorola is focusing on embedded processors these days with the MPC range of chips so they have n't turned their back on PowerPC architecture. They are just concentrating on low power, low clock speed chips.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[boobsea]

What about the Operton?

Re:Give this a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

> The G4 is grossly underpowered in comparison with a Centrino [...]

Centrino is the name of the CPU, chipset, and WLAN card. The CPU is called the Pentium-M (or Banias). It's a sort of hybrid between the Tualatin P3 and the P4, taking the best features from both, with energy efficiency as one of the primary design goals. It's probably the nicest chip Intel has done in years.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd also like to know how many Mac apps have been shipped that are 64-bit.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[netglen]

>> And, speaking of humour...my prof's PowerBook core dumped yesterday as he was lecturing

Hello Basher, welcome to Nethack! You are a lawful human Knight.
You see here a apple.
There is an apple here;eat it? [ynq] (n)
The apple was delicious; core dumped.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Sigh Phi]

What version of MacOS was your professor using? You never just see "scrolling text" take over the GUI.

If OS X kernel panics, the screen dims and you get a message in multiple languages saying a reboot is necessary.

You can view crash logs with /Applications/Utilities/Console.app. Usually what you get is a dialog saying "The application -blah- has unexpectedly quit," and a log file is written to one of several convenent locations.

Where did you get lines of scrolling text?

Re:Heat Issue?

[quandrum]

Um, Didn't IBM just release the 970FX, which uses the the new (.09nm ?) process and significantly less watt's of power consumption, along with PowerTune, a speedstep-like technology that would further reduce power consumption?

Why yes, yes they did. Maybe that's how they will fix the heat issue.

Re:Give this a miss

[brucmack]

You'll noticed that he mentioned Centrino (actually the processor is the Pentium M). A 2.4 GHz machine is going to be slower than a 1.6 GHz Pentium M on certain applications, because of its short pipeline and larger cache.

Die shrink

[charnov]

Actually SOI heat issues go UP with die shrinks, not the other way around. Now if Apple could license IBMs power island and other power saving/cooling tech, then that would be useful.

Re:Die shrink

[jkabbe]

First, IBM is using SSOI (Strained Silicon on Insulator). Second, the last statistics I saw showed a greater than 50% power consumption reduction with the new 970FX processors (die shrink and SSOI). That's promising.

Re:Die shrink

[charnov]

Well, I had a whole response typed upped but I went and read up on the 970FX on IBMs site and you are indeed correct. They got around the problems of leakage of strained silicon by combining SOI and SS. Pretty cool...literally. They also will be using IBMS voltage island techniques to reduce power (that's the real reason you will be seeing power use decreases, not the die shrink. SOI and SS both have issues as you get smaller. AMD and IBM will be completely combined in process tech starting at 65nm at AMDs new plant that is being built in Dresden and at the East Fiskill plant where the FX will be produced).

The prime benefits of the combined SOI and SS is that you get the ability to run with less power at the same frequency from SS but the SOI keeps the leakage characteristics of SS from generating ridiculous heat (look at Prescott).

It is going to be interesting.

Re:Die shrink

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right about the overall power reduction, but the thermal problem is much the same as with the 130nm chip. What determines chip temperature is power density (w/area), not absolute power draw. For example, a flashlight bulb dissipating say 300 milliwatts (3v * 0.1a) runs at over 1200C because the power is dissipated through the very small surface area of the filament. OTOH, 300 mw dissipated in my home oven would maybe give me a few millidegrees temperature increase.

The die shrink to 90 nm drops both the area and the power draw by about a factor of two, so power density and chip temperature stay about the same. What is improved is that the heat rejection technology only has to dump half as much power, so fans and heat sinks can be smaller.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[TheSunborn]

Rendering use floating points, so whenever the chip is 64bit don't matter as long as the project can fit in 2GB ram.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[millahtime]

"Please attempt to explain to us PC lusers why 64-bit processors are faster at rendering or Matlab than 32-bit ones. I could use a good laugh today."

If you don't know already than you probubally don't know much about it. But it's the addressing on the memory and the size of the number the math can be done on. Instead of a 32bit number it can do math with 64 bit numbers. Much larger numbers. On a 32 bit processor if it has to take a number larger than 32 bit and do computations on it then the number has to be broken up into parts and math done on them. This is several steps and takes longer to do.

Chip designers, Electrical System designers, etc use 64 bit systems to do their work on. And they are truely faster.

From a performance as you can see point..something rendered on a dual processor G4 for 4 hours might take 20-30 minutes on a dual processor G5.

One more G4 for the PowerBook?

[Zixia]

I thought 'one more G4 for the Powerbook' meant that it would be getting dual-processors to speed things up.

I guess if Apple did that, they would then add an extra 17" screen to create the DSBook.

Re:Heat Issue?

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

They solved it. Now they include an asbestos underpants with every laptop.

Re:It'd make me feel guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

powerbooks are silver ya 'tard, and besides there's one use for apple laptops: cheaper than centrino 3hr+ laptops with 300-500 less (albeit the centrinos are prolly three to four times the processing power, but you try finding a damn centrino with a radeon 9200 mobility with dedicated memory for under 1200 bucks).

-- vranash

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no clue, do you? Bitness has NOTHING to do with speed. If anything, it is slower because it takes longer to address a 64-bit pointer than it does a 32-bit one.

How many of these apps are compiled for 64-bit?

Answer NONE

Heat

[charnov]

The 90nm G5s are already in the new Xserves. Anyone notice they had to remove one of the hard drive bays to allow for the extra airways?

Anyways, I'll put my Athlon 64 laptop against anything Apple can put in a laptop. Escpecially dollar for dollar. And no, I know what you are thinking, it barely gets warm.

Just think, the 35 watt Athlons 64s roll out in the next two months and it will get even better.

Re:Heat

[greg_barton]

And no, I know what you are thinking, it barely gets warm.

I can attest to that. I recently bought one of these. Blazingly fast and MUCH cooler than my last athlon based viao laptop. In fact, the processor fan is only on about half the time.

Re:Heat

[Sketch]

Sure, you can put it up against anything Apple can put on a laptop as long as it's sitting on a desk and plugged in. But how much does it weigh, and how much runtime do you get when you are actually using the machine on battery?

Re:Heat

[iotaborg]

You might want to get your facts a little straighter as the G5 consumes 24.5W@2GHz. So much for the Athalon 64@35W.

Re:Heat

[OmniVector]

and will your athlon64 laptop be 1" thick or less? probably not.

Re:Heat

[NeoSkandranon]

Does it really need to be?

"This is leet because its [smaller|thinner|lighter]" is not always valid.

Re:Heat

[OmniVector]

do laptops really NEED to be faster? thinner? lighter? better looking? for one half the cost of a laptop you can typically get a machine twice as powerful. what's the point in laptops if a deskotp is so much cheaper.
</sarcasm>

laptops are meant to be portable. your average 8-9 pound 1 hour battery life monster isn't portable. it's a portable desktop. apple doesn't make portable desktops, it makes laptops. there's a difference between the two. they could have easily put a 1.6-2ghz g5 in a 2" thick laptop months ago, but apple doesn't make ugly pieces of crap so they take their time.

Re:Heat

[arodland]

That's well and good for the Atahalon 64, but how about the Athlon64?

Re:Heat

[badasscat]

laptops are meant to be portable. your average 8-9 pound 1 hour battery life monster isn't portable. it's a portable desktop. apple doesn't make portable desktops, it makes laptops.

Ummmm.

I'll grant you that Apple's laptops are thin and light vs. their screen sizes, but the 17" PB is a definite desktop replacement, not a laptop.

And besides, Apple is not the only company out there making small laptops. There are so many laptops to choose from that it's honestly unfair to Apple to compare their lineup to the entirety of what's available. They make exactly two styles of laptops, both of which are cosmetically quite similar when you get down to it (one line has a different material for the case and is slightly smaller), so if you're going to play Apple vs. everybody else almost anybody could come up with examples of other brands doing either exactly what Apple's doing hardware-wise at least as well as they are, or alternatives that may take a different approach and one that some people might prefer.

Re:Heat

[OmniVector]

the 17" pb gets about 4 hours of battery life and is 1" thick. it's also 7 pounds. it also has a backlit keyboard. please inform me if there's a PC laptop with similar specs, because i'm unaware of one.

you'll notice nowhere above there do i say 8-9 pounds, 1 hour battery life, and > 1" thick.

Re:Heat

[dj245]

TheRegister recently reported that AMD whipped up a new Opteron that uses 25W @ 2ghz by hand-binning their parts. Sure, Athlons arent exactly Opterons, but they're pretty close. Given the price of the G5, I think an Opteron->G5 comparison is pretty fair.

Re:Heat

[Anonymous Coward]

ruby -e 'require "base64";puts decode64("V2hhdCB0aGUgaGVsbCBkb2VzIHRoYXQgbWVhbj8= ")'

how to mod an article

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

How do I mod an article as a troll?

Re:how to mod an article

[ian mills]

Preferences -> homepage -> checkbox next to pudge under exclude authors. Of course this also would mark all future posts by him as a troll as well and you'd never see them. But you know what they say, once a troll, always a troll. Obviously I haven't done this but the option is there.

Re:Give this a miss

[Jord]

Well this is a bunch of horseshit. The G4 runs applications perfectly well. I develop professional applications on my PowerBook all day long and there is no issue with its speed.

I know of several people a few of which are into professional video and audio editing and they have no issues with their PowerBooks either. Hell some of them are using models from a couple of years ago.

Comments like this are pure FUD. Yes the G5 is great, can't wait to get one in a PowerBook, but the G4 PowerBooks work very well.

Whoever modded this as interesting needs to be flogged.

Ok, there's the setup

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package

Ok, our straightman has given the setup line. Punchline deliverers, please form a queue...

Re:Ok, there's the setup

[Drakonian]

Best.... post..... ever!

Re:Ok, there's the setup

[cavebear42]

I'm confused, is he a straight-man or an apple user?

Re:Ok, there's the setup

[matticus]

you're new here, aren't you?

didn't work.

Applications

[Ann Coulter]

I doubt that we will be seeing laptops with more than 4GB of memory anytime soon. Virtual memory is slow for the kinds of applications normally used on a 64-bit system. If virtual memory is used, we might be seeing more 32-bit applications that does paging of 4GB blocks before the implementation of a 64-bit Apple laptop. I also think that most people would be running their 64-bit memory addressing applications for long spans time and I doubt that they would use a laptop for them. And as for 64-bit integer applications, I would love to have faster encryption with larger keys on my laptop but most people still use 32-bit systems and using such key sizes would be inpolite. Faster internal data transfer will be useful though. In conclusion, I think that the applications for 64-bit machines are inappropriate for laptops and there will not be much of an advantage for a 64-bit laptop.

Re:Applications

[Anonymous Coward]

Paging 4GB blocks? :)

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[millahtime]

You really don't have a clue to the real advantages of 64bit. And your normal everyday use there are no advantages. And yes it can make a system faster depending on what the system is doing. If you are doig rendering or simulating a massive engineering design it is several times faster jsut having the 64bit. Say in cadence you simulate a chip on a 32 bit chip vs a 64 bit chip. The 64bit chip will be several times faster and more accurate because of the math at 64bit numbers.

come again?

[Anonymous Coward]

And stay away from newsnet!
WTF is that?

Re:come again?

[mnemonic_]

Think he means Usenet...

Re:Give this a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Well this is a bunch of horseshit. The G4 runs applications perfectly well. I develop professional applications on my PowerBook all day long and there is no issue with its speed.

Would you say the same about the desktop G4 towers?

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Maserati]

It must have been in Verbose mode when he restarted it. That'll put lots of lines of white text on a black background on the display. Handy to see exactly what's going on at startup - but you Unix types knew that.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[yomegaman]

Well, I guess you put me in my place... I never knew until now that Matlab and rendering used only integer math and ignored the floating-point units.

Re:Google cache links

[meta-monkey]

Ummm..moderators. The guy's name is "cache_automaton." His sig is "It is my pleasure to serve you caches." It's a troll, who links to google caches of websites that have metric shit-tons of bandwidth, like apple.com. Please moderate accordingly.

And now watch as I get slammed with a "-1 Offtopic." Grumble...

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck? Did you read anything I said?

Let me guess, you just read the spin from Apple. You obviously have zero background in programming or hardware.

REALLY?

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Anyways, I'll put my Athlon 64 laptop against anything Apple can put in a laptop.

OSX 10.3

Re:REALLY?

[charnov]

I'll see yur OSX and raise you SuSe 9.0 for AMD64 (a true 64 bit operating system) or any of the other 64 bit linuxs or BSDs. Hell even Windows 64 bit will be finished soon (come on ATI).

I wonder if anyone has started a port of Darwin to AMD64?

Re:REALLY?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gentoo

Re:REALLY?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see, a half-assed BSD clone with an ugly GUI on top.

Let's break that down: half-assed BSD: if you want to insult the OS's base, a much more accurate statement would be a mutt or frankenstein or something. Half-assed it is not.
clone: No, it's really BSD under there.
ugly GUI: Ha. Ha ha ha. I'm not even going to touch that with a 17" Powerbook.
And yes, OS X IS completely customizable. Look up a program called Shapeshifter.
Finally, a post accurately marked 'Troll'.

Re:REALLY?

[libra-dragon]

I'll take 32-bit OSX over 64-bit SuSe --at least on the desktop. I know I'm really crippling myself by not running 64-bit desktop applications. Vi really fucking crawls running 32-bit.

Re:What a troll post

[Jord]

Speaking of trolls, complaining about the boot time? How often do you really boot that monster? Let me guess, whenever there is a security update?

The sleep function on Apple notebooks work so well that the ONLY time I reboot mine is for updates.

Now if you had a windows machine I could see the complaint since putting it to sleep is rolling the dice that the sucker will come up again :)

A sure sign that Apple is doing well is when people start to complain about the boot time because they have run out of other complaints!

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[xen0side]

yes you do I have had that happen on my 12" iBook soon after I had the all to common logic board failure, core dump almost always means a hardware problem

Freon, like the old Cray's?

[sharrestom]

A clear housing would be cool too. But I'm not sure that I want those little plastic fish floating around in my laptop.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Aardpig]

nstead of a 32bit number it can do math with 64 bit numbers. Much larger numbers. On a 32 bit processor if it has to take a number larger than 32 bit and do computations on it then the number has to be broken up into parts and math done on them.

You couldn't be more wrong. The SSE2 instructions on Pentium 4 chipsets operate on double-precision (i.e., 64-bit) floating-point numbers (actually, they work internally with something like 80 bits, but that's more or less invisible). In no way, therefore, is a double-precision multiply "broken up into parts".

The reason why Pentium 4 systems are 32-bit is comes down to their memory addressing, and the size of their "default" integers. I think you'll find that integers are not used much in numerical modelling, apart from as array and loop indices. What was your point again?

Re:What a troll post

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about boot times, it's been about 3 months since I've rebooted my 1ghz Powerbook... before I swapped teh HDD on my G3 iMac it went just under a year w/o a restart.

Re:Heat Issue?

[KoopaTroopa]

I believe that that's 90 nm.

Use Sleep

[DarkAurora]

Use the sleep functionality on your laptop. No OS's boot time can beat OSX's wake from sleep time.

I personally never actually power off my laptop, except for when I need to apply a security update.

Re:Use Sleep

[DoctorScooby]

Power it off when going through the XRay machine at the airport, or you'll probably end up with a beautiful expensive paperweight. I've seen it happen. NASTY.

Which is also why I don't eat Microwaved food anymore. If it can wreck my friend's TiBook, it can't be making my pizza very happy.

Re:Use Sleep

[fejta]

Or install any other application. Like say iChat for instance. What crap! I thought I would restart less after installing applications, not more by moving to MacOS

Re:Use Sleep

[John Newman]

First, my sleeping iBook has been through X-ray machines more times than I can count. I really can't imagine, in a purely theoretical sense, how low-dose X-rays could sizzle-fry a laptop. In a practical sense, why haven't we seen an epidemic of, for example, dead Palms (which are never "off")?

Second, what the heck was your friend thinking, putting his TiBook in the microwave? Everyone knows you shouldn't microwave metal! If only he had tried it with an iBook instead...

Re:Use Sleep

[DoctorScooby]

what the heck was your friend thinking, putting his TiBook in the microwave?

I guess he wanted to experience what a G5 PowerBook would feel like on his lap.

Now THAT'S a hack!

Re:What a troll post

[bombadillo]

Ever notice that if you boot up XP and imediately log in you will not have an IP address? I am not sure if this is a default setting. I think MS did this to make the boot times appear faster. Usually , the first thing I do after booting up a computer is open up a browser. I don't think you can consider any computer today as fully booted until the TCP/IP stack is fully operational.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Aardpig]

The 64bit chip will be several times faster and more accurate because of the math at 64bit numbers.

Bwaa ha ha! This must be the dumbest statement I've read so far this year. Nice one, keep them coming!

Re:What a troll post

[BostonPilot]

Why are you booting it? Put it to sleep for goodness sake! Then it takes 2-3 seconds to be ready for use. Reboot it every 6 months when you upgrade the software!

what heat issue?

[Anonymous Coward]

The G5 pulls less watts than the G4.

Now at the risk of sounding like a troll

[FS1]

Lets take a reasonable fair look at both sides. I myself am slightly biased against macs because i don't seem to be compatible with them but that is another story. Many people are saying that the G5 "Rules" cause it is a 64 bit chip, and granted it is. There are also the AMD fanboys myself included that say, "hey we had the first desktop 64bit processor and ours kicks your G5 to the curb." Also there are the intel automatons that say, "man apple computers sucks man they can't touch the P4/XEON performace wise." Which depending on the facts given, any one of these could be seen as correct (most likely not the last one). Then there are those who say, "that apples are the best because we have a unix based OS that is sooo user friendly." The PC (L)users like myself say, "there are more applications and games written for our OS, you will be assimilated." Last but not least, there are the linux-geeks who say, "we have the best of both worlds we have a unix-like OS that is completely reconfigurable and runs some windows apps if we want it to and has a community of geeks behind it, so our OS is l337." Which there are major facts and opinions that support any of these claims, minus the assimilation part, and either way you look at there are tradeoffs for the OS you use. Then there are the benchmarkers who say, "Look at this G5/Opteron/P4 it totally outscores the others, in my totally unrealistic and unrepeatable and highly illogical benchmarking procedure." Also there are benchmarkers that listen to the whiners and try to compare the apples to oranges to watermelons to pear to peaches over and over again, and are flamed cause the G5/Opteron/P4 was the winner and it is against their "religion." The trouble with 64bit computering is you need 64bit everything in order to reap the maximum reward. Not every app on every platform has the exact same coding and drivers and hardware supporting it. There are going to be differences and they will vary widely. From what i have discerned from all this inane babble is that the G5 is indeed a worthly processor and people do like the OS that supports it (i do not). Also the opteron/Athlon 64 chip is indeed just as fast if not faster (code permitting) than the G5, the crown passing between the 2 based on what your running and how optomized it is. But that leaves us with the poor old P4/Xeon, which even though it has a 1-2Ghz lead on its competitors, is just competing with them. This is my opinion and i base it all the stuff i have read on the issues. Show me an unbiased review, ha you ain't going to find one, and i might change my mind. To sum this up people need to stop listening to what they are told, if they won't actually hear what people are saying.

Re:Now at the risk of sounding like a troll

[koan]

what about price?

Re:Now at the risk of sounding like a troll

[FS1]

"and either way you look at there are tradeoffs for the OS you use" i mentioned it. see about quote.

Re:Give this a miss

[Jord]

You have some real issues there. Afraid that people are going to switch from your beloved Windows and all your Visual Basic "l33t skillz" will be wasted?

Moto makes the G4 Apple uses

[johnpaul191]

IBM may make G4 chips, but the ones in Apple hardware are still Moto. IBM makes the G3s (not still used), and supposedly has an Altivec-enabled G3 out or coming....

There was a statement a few months back made by Phil Schiller (i think it was him?) that Apple still has a future with Moto processors for a while.

At some point Apple's hardware will eventually all go to G5/G6/whatever made by IBM, but it's going to be a while i think. In addition i think there are other Moto chips in Apple hardware besides the processor (sorry, don't feel like popping the case right now to check).

There are some good resources online explaining the relationship between Apple, IBM and Moto and the design and manufacturing of the PPC chips. I'm on crappy dialup, so i can't find them right now.
I know IBM was making the last G3s Apple used... which i guess were in the iBooks? I am 99.999% sure every Apple sold G4 chip was Mote, and IBM could sell them for other uses, including upgrades. the G4 upgrade in my G4 tower is a Moto chip though and i just got that a few months ago. actually offhand the people i asked with G4 upgrades all have Moto chips in them... so if IBM makes G4s that work in Mac hardware, i am not sure who uses it? I am not sure what YellowDog hardware was using for their G4s (could not run Mac OS 9 or OS X).

Re:Moto makes the G4 Apple uses

[beelsebob]

IBM actually don't make a single G4 chip - the G5 was the first chip they rolled out with AltiVec, and there's a much rummored G3 with AltiVec that apple will probably call a G4. Bob

What about liquid cooled ?

[bmajik]

I mean.. lets say it didn't _have_ to be water..

i dont know about you but it seems like i've always got more extra "coolant" that my body is urging me to get rid of.. and this laptop is running to hot... and it's already sitting in my lap..

if some sort of interface were made to allow for human releif and laptop cooling... the problem could be solved.

(and there may be a spin-off use for this .. interface)

Re:What about liquid cooled ?

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't know if such a device exists, but if it does, it was probably concieved & produced by the japanese.

stupid me forgot to insert line breaks

[FS1]

man it has been a while, ok to fix it should say:

Lets take a reasonable fair look at both sides. I myself am slightly biased against macs because i don't seem to be compatible with them but that is another story.

Many people are saying that the G5 "Rules" cause it is a 64 bit chip, and granted it is. There are also the AMD fanboys myself included that say, "hey we had the first desktop 64bit processor and ours kicks your G5 to the curb." Also there are the intel automatons that say, "man apple computers sucks man they can't touch the P4/XEON performace wise." Which depending on the facts given, any one of these could be seen as correct (most likely not the last one).

Then there are those who say, "that apples are the best because we have a unix based OS that is sooo user friendly." The PC (L)users like myself say, "there are more applications and games written for our OS, you will be assimilated." Last but not least, there are the linux-geeks who say, "we have the best of both worlds we have a unix-like OS that is completely reconfigurable and runs some windows apps if we want it to and has a community of geeks behind it, so our OS is l337." Which there are major facts and opinions that support any of these claims, minus the assimilation part, and either way you look at there are tradeoffs for the OS you use.

Then there are the benchmarkers who say, "Look at this G5/Opteron/P4 it totally outscores the others, in my totally unrealistic and unrepeatable and highly illogical benchmarking procedure." Also there are benchmarkers that listen to the whiners and try to compare the apples to oranges to watermelons to pear to peaches over and over again, and are flamed cause the G5/Opteron/P4 was the winner and it is against their "religion."

The trouble with 64bit computering is you need 64bit everything in order to reap the maximum reward. Not every app on every platform has the exact same coding and drivers and hardware supporting it. There are going to be differences and they will vary widely.

From what i have discerned from all this inane babble is that the G5 is indeed a worthly processor and people do like the OS that supports it (i do not). Also the opteron/Athlon 64 chip is indeed just as fast if not faster (code permitting) than the G5, the crown passing between the 2 based on what your running and how optomized it is. But that leaves us with the poor old P4/Xeon, which even though it has a 1-2Ghz lead on its competitors, is just competing with them. This is my opinion and i base it all the stuff i have read on the issues. Show me an unbiased review, ha you ain't going to find one, and i might change my mind.

To sum this up people need to stop listening to what they are told, if they won't actually hear what people are saying.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[wankledot]

"never" isn't quite right. I know that 10.0 would do that, and maybe even 10.1. (been a while since I used that) Newer versions have the pretty little "you're hosed" screen, but the old ones did have white text dumped over the GUI.

On a related note.......

[Ride-My-Rocket]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

I'll be sure to think about what you said -- and then laugh -- while I'm playing Half-Life 2.

Re:On a related note.......

[Taicho]

or FFXI mwahahaha.

Re:On a related note.......

[li99sh79]

I'll be sure to think about what you said -- and then laugh -- while I'm playing Half-Life 2.

I guess the question then becomes which will we see first, HL2 or a G5 Powerbook?

-sam

Stirring Up Trouble

[APDent]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

So one of those G5s is more powerful than the dual 2.8GHz Xeon machine in this non-current PC tower, here? Truly, I'm curious (and only tangentially trying to stir up trouble).

Re:Stirring Up Trouble

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. A dual 2.0 GHz G5 system beats a dual 3.0 (or was it 3.2? I forget) Xeon system in any reasonable test you'd care to throw at it.

Re:Stirring Up Trouble

[APDent]

Yes. A dual 2.0 GHz G5 system beats a dual 3.0 (or was it 3.2? I forget) Xeon system in any reasonable test you'd care to throw at it.

But the original post didn't say "dual G5", it said "that much power in a small package", and I assume that the laptop won't have two G5s in it (or a G5, at all, for that matter).

Laptop performance

[guacamole]

I must say that the improvements in the speed of Apple portables have been really pathetic during all recent years. Consider this example.. almost two and a half years ago I bought an iBook with a 600MHz G3 processor. Honestly, I felt the performance was barely adequate and I decided to replace it eventually, maybe in about three years. But today, for about the same price, you can buy an iBook with an 800MHz G4 (and all other components slightly beefed up). The speed improvement is barely noticeable. In the same time frame the PC portables have improved by a whole lot more, not to mention, I wouldn't have had this performance anxiety if I bought something like an R-series IBM Thinkpad with +1GHz mobile pentium 3 for about the same price back then to begin with)..

If Apple doesn't come up within a year with an iBook replacement that has at least 1.5GHz or so CPU, I'll probably just switch to PC laptops.

Re:Laptop performance

[Orien]

You're joking right? Your problem is that you keep buying iBooks! The iBook is the LOW-END model. If you are looking for performance increases you should buy a Powerbook. That's what they are for. The G4 in the iBooks is basically a G3 anyway, and is seriously crippled compared to the G4 in the Powerbook. Especially when you compare all the bus/architeture enhancements. This is simmilar to the Pentium vs. Celeron issues.

Go to any major PC vendor and you will see that they do the same thing with all comptuers, laptops included. If you browse through Dell's laptops for excample, you will see a line that are cheap, has Celeron processors and yesterdays parts, and won't give you a whole lot of performance difference than models a few years ago. OR you can go for the high end models that have bleeding-edge parts and major performance increases. You are buying an item that you are not the target market for and then complaining that it doesn't meet your needs. You might argue that the powerbook is too expensive, but that is an entirely different problem and has nothing to do with performance increases.

Re:Laptop performance

[Unregistered]

thats cause motorolla dropped the ball. But the G5 is a very good chip and i wouldn't be supprised to see apple overake amd in preformance in the next year or so.

Re:What a troll post

[mnemonic_]

As an XP user of 4 years, I have never noticed this...

Upgrade cards

[Gilmoure]

I just want a G5 upgrade card for my Cube. That'll be sweeeeeeet!

Re:Upgrade cards

[otis wildflower]

I just want a G5 upgrade card for my Cube. That'll be sweeeeeeet!

It'll also require a few fans, less'n you underclock a 90nm CPU like mad :/...

Re:Upgrade cards

[Gilmoure]

Figure once IBM has their strained silicon process down, temperatures will drop. I imagine that's what Apple's waiting for, for their laptops.

misguided thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

The G5 is faster per clock than the G4

So, why not a 1.5 GHz G5 laptop? It would be even cooler than the G4.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[prockcore]

What version of MacOS was your professor using? You never just see "scrolling text" take over the GUI.

If OS X kernel panics, the screen dims and you get a message in multiple languages saying a reboot is necessary.

Wrong. I've seen Jaguar do both the multi-language kernel panic as well as the text over the gui kernel panic.

And I should know, my powerbook kernel panics at least every other day (i suspect it's because I'm not using high priced Apple ram)

Re:Worst laptop I ever bought.

[Anonymous Coward]

If your PPB ran that slow, there is something wrong and you should call Apple about it, or bring it to an Apple store. Same with the iPod - if it is really only a few months old then it is still under warranty.

Just making sure no one falls for this troll post.

Re:What a troll post

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows xp hasn't been around for four years idiot.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Awptimus Prime]

If you want to talk about power, there are many benchmarks showing the G5 being beaten by various PC offerings, so shut it up.

Agreed. I was thinking of all the poor chaps who will get modded as troll or flamebaiter because Pudgey had to go and troll the headline. Kinda funny.

On the same note as you were addressing, if the G5 was such a performance giant, then why aren't we seeing these things in datacenters? If Apple is the consistant leader in performance and reliability, why don't we see more Apples out there?

Personally, I see them more as executive toys than real computers.

Don't worry about burning

[zojas]

They'll get the G5 nearly as cool as a G4 before it goes in the powerbook. between die shrink and the liquid-cooled rumors it should be fine.

Re:Give this a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever modded this as interesting needs to be flogged.

Oooo, me! me! Flog me!

You Apple types are so arty, it just makes me quiver.

Er, wait. What do you mean by "professional"?

So full of crap!

[MarcQuadra]

That is SO full of crap. The G5 consumes under 50 watts at 2GHz, less than a Pentium4, I don't see 2GHz P4 laptops needing water cooling. The reason the G5 is _PERCIEVED_ as a hot chip is that Mac users are used to the 'good ole' days' when their CPUs only sucked 5-15 watts, we've STILL got quite a lead on you x86 folks. My Athlon XP 2500+ puts out 78 watts at 1.8GHz.

The G4 and G5 both produce WAY less heat then their x86 counterparts, but Apple uses GIANT heatsinks so they can run their fans at very low RPMs.

Get a grip on reality. The 'hot lap' G4 latops are still cooler than PCs of comparable clock speed, from my own experience. Mac users have just been spoiled by the 68K and G3 series, which were passively cooled (read: no fan. at all.).

Re:So full of crap!

[afidel]

Uh, only idiots own "laptops" with desktop P4's, P4M uses 35.0W at 2.5Ghz while the Pentium M at 1.7Ghz tops out at 24.5W. So the G5 would be CONSIDERABLY hotter than near equivilant mobile x86 parts. To be fair the PPC970FX which is the G5 likely to be used for mobile applications only uses 24.5 W at 2.0 GHz so it's pretty decent.

Re:So full of crap!

[jo_ham]

My 600Mhz G3 iBook does have a fan, but it has never turned on in the two years I've been using this machine, and I work it pretty hard.

According to IBM's figures, the chip I have draws 6 watts at 600Mhz, a power figure they've managed to beat in the newest version - 5.9W at 1Ghz. The 900Mhz G3 (the last G3 used in the iBook range) draws 6W at that clock speed.

It's not mounted near the CPU though - it's near the back of the iBook to the left and slightly forward of the hinge and vent. There's a thermocouple and heat sink assemby there too.

The CPU itself is passively cooled. I think the hottest thing inside the case is the HD when it's been accessed heavily for a while.

You can see a shot of the inside of my iBook here (taken when I upgraded the hard drive - it's missing from the shot, it goes in the bottom left hand corner).

I love my ultra-quiet laptop with extremely long battery life!

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[rco3]

Matlab isn't 64-bit aware at all. Even on IRIX, Solaris, etc. the most recent versions of Matlab have been 32-bit executables.

When *I* do chip design or electrical circuit design, I'm running on a pitiful little Athlon 2600+ - definitely not 64-bit.

With your rendering example, I'd kinda like to see some concrete measured numbers. What renders in 6 hours on a G5 renders in 10 seconds on my Athlon. Convinced? Yeah, me neither.

I'm a powerbook pismo user

[tkrotchko]

And I've upgraded to a G3/900mhz processor, so I'd love a new laptop, but the G4's aren't worth it.

Apple isn't going to pry money loose from me (and many others) until they provide a signficiant upgrade, and going from G3 900mhz to G4 1.33 or 1.5 isn't worth it.

Re:I'm a powerbook pismo user

[demon]

I have a 400MHz Pismo (I recently upgraded it to 768 MB of RAM, and added an AirPort card to it). Is the performance gain as good as PowerLogix claims it is? The price is a little steep, but if the performance gain is good enough, I'd like to get one. (I run Debian GNU/Linux on mine.)

Re:I'm a powerbook pismo user

[tkrotchko]

Its not as dramatic as a lot of people claim, but it makes the machines usable under 10.x.

With the upgrade I now feel very comfortable running X for MS Office, and browsing. If it didn't have the overhead of the GUI, I suspect my machine would actually be pretty fast.

It will get you another year-plus use out of the machine, and for that reason, its worth it.

I have 512M of RAM, btw.

Re:Give this a miss

[pHDNgell]

My two powerbooks have 60GB of disk each. That's more than enough space for editing a couple of hours of video in Final Cut Pro 4 using OfflineRT.

That's more of a hobby for me, though. I'm a software developer by trade. I do mostly large server work (I'm a UNIX guy), but I develop desktop apps as well. Then again, the desktop apps are mostly hobby work as well...stuff like video delivery systems and monitoring apps.

I realize the post I'm responding to is a troll who can't even be bothered to see that the smallest hard drive Apple even sells in a powerbook is 40GB, and that's only in a 12" where nobody does video editing anyway.

Re:Give this a miss

[Jord]

I don't own one so I am not going to comment on a machine that I have not used. But considering it can run a faster hard drive than my notebook and can have a second processor I am betting it would run quite nice.

Re:Heat Issue?

[quandrum]

Oops! Thanks, I meant .09 micron :)

iBook upgrades next?

[milkman_matt]

Well, I was just about to get myself a low-end iBook, looks like I may have to wait it out for a few months. If their reputation holds true the 800MHz 12" will be 1GHz 12" and I'll get it while it's new instead of buying a system a couple months before the new revision like I did before. (bitter? me? Heh)

-matt

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[tgibbs]

What version of MacOS was your professor using? You never just see "scrolling text" take over the GUI.

I've seen crashes like this OS X, although not in some time. I don't know if it can happen in Panther.

waitt a minute!

[Chuck Bucket]

why does this story have a G5 icon, if it's about G4s! I smell a bait and switch in progress...

CB

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[lpp]

Aaaaactually, there is a grain of truth there. For integers and fixed point calcs, true, there will be no difference in precision between 32 and 64 bit procs, just a difference in the actual range of numbers that can be dealt with.

But, for floats and doubles, more bits means I can capture a more precise number. For example, 2x10^30 + 1x10^-30 would look something akin to 2,000,000---.00000----1 where the hyphens are a bunch of zeros. With a big enough "bitspace", that level of precision can be captured, but if the "bitspace" is too small, you end up "estimating" and wind up with just 2x10^30. For most purposes, dropping such a negligible amount from the operands won't result in a noticeable error. For things where iterative calculations are used for forecasting, it can mount up. And for simulations and so on...well, you get the picture.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[friendscallmelenny]

Crappy robot sez: "On the same note as you were addressing, if the G5 was such a performance giant, then why aren't we seeing these things in datacenters? If Apple is the consistant leader in performance and reliability, why don't we see more Apples out there?"

Yea! If they are so great why doesn't somebody build a supercomputer out of 'em? Err.... nerver mind

Laps

[Goo.cc]

"...Oh, and I don't want to burn my lap. "

That is why no one calls them "laptops" anymore. Most companies either call them portables or notebooks.

quoted italics =yours, regular =editorial comment

[SuperBanana]

Actually, that somewhat dorky statement about feeling guilty was relentlessly added into my post as though I said it.

You gotta be kidding me, right? Slashdot editors have followed one standard very consistently- italics are the "speech" of the submitter(also encased in quotes and proceeded with an introduction), and regular text is the editorial comment. Anyone who has made it beyond 4th grade and learned proper citing and punctuation should be able to understand this, and it's reinforced with the italics/regular text styling.

Sorry, I 'side' with the slashdot editors- this was a reader who ignored multiple clues and thought the editorial comment was your own words. Now, the dork-ness of the comment is another thing entirely...I think we're all in agreement on that one.

Re:What a troll post

[Zelet]

There is a small bug that is in 10.3 that tries to reference a file that doesn't exist.

is a fix. This will make OS X boot as fast as Linux and Win2000.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[cosmo7]

How many of these apps are compiled for 64-bit?

Answer NONE

Just off the top of my head I can think of Final Cut Pro, DVDStudio Pro, Shake, Photoshop and Emagic.

What's your point? Do you think developers aren't going to use 64-bits when it's just a compiler switch away?

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[sootman]

Another vote for "wrong". I've seen it happen in OS X from 10.0.3 through 10.2.8. (I haven't seen it in Panther yet.) (Give it time. ;-) ) The text doesn't really "scroll", it just shows up and overlays the GUI--white text in black rectangles, each rectangle the length of the line. And yes, I've seen the 4-language overlay message, too. I've seen both pop up while doing nothing unusual--opening and app, clicking on the desktop, etc.

64-bit apps on PPC

[Anonymous Coward]

64-bit applications are normally slower than 32-bit applications.

On IA32e/AMD64 they are faster than the IA32 mode because of ISA changes, specifically to instruction coding, the floating point model, and the number of registers. On PPC, 64-bit applications run faster if and only if they require greater than 32-bit integer arithmetic or they can gain from having a greater than 32-bit virtual address space (or more then 4 gigabytes of physical memory). Relatively few applications fit either of those classes.

Apple users will be disappointed to find that they actually lose a touch of performance when they finally get a 64-bit operating system.

Re:Applications (64-bit laptops)

[Octorian]

Well, you can buy 64-bit laptops today. They're just not x86 or Mac/PPC based.

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/
http://www.next computing.com/

(They're mainly UltraSPARC based. I think TadPole used to make PA-RISC laptops as well.)

Gamma ray burst

[Teahouse]

Wouldn't a G5 in a laptop generate enough heat and radiation to emit a gamma ray burst? Sure, it's portable, but the cooling system is a 3m ball that needs to be immersed in water.

I know, I know, I'm just a feckless troll.

Re:Gamma ray burst

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you have plenty of feck.

Re:Gamma ray burst

[mcwop]

Could be dangerous. Imagine green colored Mac Zealots running around, who can lift approximately 100 tons when calm and the madder they get, the stronger they get. Not to mention their incredible leaping/jumping Ability, and accelerated healing. Nobody will pick on poor mac zealots again. "Puny non-mac users!"

Re:Gamma ray burst

[Teahouse]

Or worse, some might develop mutant powers and demand the US standardize on Macs. They will even demand "MAC SERVERS!". Hey, I said they mutated, not get any smarter.

Troll away Mac Facists! :)

Re:Gamma ray burst

[74nova]

i, for one, welcome out new green colored mac zealot overlords.

and on a side note, nice sig. i never thought id see Noah Fecks quoted on /., it is my job to keep punk rock elite!

Re:Google cache links

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a troll, who links to google caches...

Do I happen to be the only one to notice that people have started using the term "troll" a bit too loosely recently?

battery life!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

AMEN!!!
Preach it!!!
Can we please slow increases in speed and push for a laptop that will go 10 hours with the stock battery? PLEASE?!!?
Centrino (the Pentuim-M(tm)) is nice and all but I NEED longer battery life.

Re:Give this a miss

[prockcore]

My two powerbooks have 60GB of disk each. That's more than enough space for editing a couple of hours of video in Final Cut Pro 4 using OfflineRT.

You're doing video on a powerbook harddrive?! You know that Apple uses 4200 and 5400 RPM harddrives in it's laptops. That's way too slow to do video capturing of any decent quality.

And what about the OS?

[theolein]

I'm specifically waiting for a G5 Powerbook, and I'll put my OSX against any OS that you can run on your Athlon 64.

Re:curious

[pjt33]

I'm also curious - what is it about Apples which makes them "the biggest pieces of junk" your friend has ever seen?

I agree that they're expensive, although I'm not sure what you mean about a dismal software selection - what precisely do you want which you can't get? Once or twice, sure, I've had to use Fink to download the source for a project and build it, but in general I've been able to find everything I need. I don't play games much - is that what you're complaining about?

Anyway, to answer your question, the thing Apple get right is UI. OS X has the nicest UI of any OS I've used. Apples have also traditionally been used by newspapers because they had better DP software than Wintels.

Underpowered?

[Amigori]

I see alot of posts here saying that the iBook and Powerbooks are underpowered. I guess it all depends on what you use it for. Last fall, I bought the new 12" PB 1Ghz/512Mb/AirportExtreme/Bluetooth/DVD-R, and there wasn't anything close from Dell or Gateway in terms of size, performance, and features. Anyways...

The people yelling "Underpowered!" are probably game freaks with lots of disposable income who completely rebuild their PC every 6-9 months. I'm not sorry that school is taking all of my money and I can only afford to upgrade every 2-3 years. Besides, 30 fps gains when your already above 200 fps really isn't necessary. The new UT2004 Demo runs just fine on my PB. I'm sure if you tried the PC version on a similarly spec'd PC (1Ghz AMD/512Mb/32Mb nVidia 5200FX) it wouldn't run near as fast. And I'm sure those playing on a Centrino laptop will find that UT2004 will definitely drain your battery in less than 4 hours. Probably closer to 1-1.5 hours and a much lower framerate due to the integrated Intel Graphics on many of those laptops.

People, its all about selecting the best product for your needs. Apple's laptops primary target market is NOT gamers, overclockers, or anyone whose on a Ghz rulz powertrip. Its much closer to people who just want their computer to work extremely well and are simple to use and not have to f* around with drivers for 2 hours just to get the damned thing to boot right.

I'm not even sure I should bother with this argument because everytime we get an thread on Apple hardware, I see the same "Underpowered!" and "Too expensive!" posts. And the people who make these arguments just don't understand what Apple, as a business, is trying to do. Make a profit, and build a computer that's easy to use.

Just a few thoughts...
Amigori

Re:Underpowered?

[hrbrmstr]

Amigori: that's pretty much the exact config i want to buy this week but have been a bit scared off by this thread and the threads on a few of the Mac sites.

i need to be able to run M$ Mac Office, a bunch of open source security tools and may want to play around with some music apps.

i gather your experience has been good, but just want to get another opine before laying out the benjamins (especially if there's going to be a potential price drop in 10-15 days due to a new model).

one of my only questions besides "are you really, really happy with the thing" is how is SSL performance in Safari? I've been really disappointed with Safari SSL performance on my dual G4 867MHz and I'm hoping that the extra 137MHz speeds it up enough to not make me wince everytime i access an SSL site.

thx

Re:Underpowered?

[ipjohnson]

I actually bought the 800Mhz 12" iBook (640 ram)and I absolutely love it. I use mine to surf the web, listen to music, watch movie, and program while I'm on the road. Honetly I bought mine to replace my 12" 466 clam shell and it was the perfect machine for me.

I haven't noticed any SSL site being slow (atleast compared to my 2.4 Xeon at work).

So as usual YMMV but I love mine.

Re:Underpowered?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its much closer to people who just want their computer to work extremely well and are simple to use and not have to f* around with drivers for 2 hours just to get the damned thing to boot right.

I have a 'PC' and I only spent 10 minutes at most installing drivers the first time I set it up. It has worked perfectly since then, with no need to mess around. I run Windows 2000 btw.

Any other posters with similar experiences?

Re:Underpowered?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. Red Hat 9... spent 0 minutes installing drivers. How's that grab ya?

Re:Underpowered?

[Amigori]

hrbrmstr: The config that I bought is perfect for my needs. The bigger models have a little more power, but I wanted the smaller size. As for when the current version will be updated, I cannot say, but I would expect sometime in the next 3 months. The Powerbooks recently have had a little longer life cycle than perhaps is necessary or normal.

As far as software goes, Office v.X runs better on my PB than Office XP on my universities new 2.4Ghz Dells. I suppose most people wouldn't notice the difference, but I've been using Office since its Win3.1 days and I notice the little things. For music software, I pretty much only use iTunes right now, but Garageband looks sweet and I'm going to be buying a new guitar and some new M-Audio gear soon, so I'll know more in the future.

For Safari, I should point out that I have Jaguar 10.2.8 and Safari 1.0.1, I don't notice any slow downs with SSL sites, but I do notice heavy slowdowns on flash intensive sites, like IGN (who has become worse over the years instead of better). Most of the time for that website, I use Mozilla or OmniWeb 5 Beta 2 and it loads much much faster. I suspect that the Flash in Safari is much faster since the release of Panther. I decided that I would just wait until 10.4 before I upgrade because 10.3 came out a few weeks after I bought my PB and Apple didn't give me a free upgrade (I think I missed the cutoff by a week or so), and 10.2.8 works well enough.

Hope this helps. At this point, I'd say just wait until the new rev. is released. It shouldn't be too much longer. If you have any other questions, feel free to email me.

Amigori

Re:Underpowered?

[Anonymous Coward]

SSL performance should be much better in Safari 1.2. I strongly suggest upgrading if you haven't already.

Re:Underpowered?

[hrbrmstr]

just couldn't wait. got the 1GHz PB 12" on Saturday. Memory is on order, but I'm more than elated. Such power in such a small form-factor.

while i read about the airport cards, the ingenuity of the apple hw designers (apart from the Ti/antenna fiasco) is almost unparallelled.

i'm almost compelled to go out and buy a bluetooth compatible phone and a bluetooth module for my pda!

Package

[JHromadka]

From the posting:I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

I've never felt guilty about having so much power in a small package -- oh wait. :)

Re:iBook performance

[Anm]

Why did you buy an iBook if performance is a concern? The cache and higher memory limit of the PowerBook line make a world of difference.

Anm

Available 64bit Laptops Running Linux

[wehe]

If you don't want to wait for the G5 PowerBook generation, you may have a look into these installation reports about Linux on laptops with 64bit CPU. BTW: there also many installation reports about Linux on Apple's iBooks and PowerBooks.

Actually, the G4 could have a long life...

[emil]

...if it were able to use DDR RAM. The chip clocks competetively, but is handicapped by PC133.

Why is it that a G4's memory subsystem can't be retrofitted with DDR?

Re:Actually, the G4 could have a long life...

[SiliconJesus101]

Uhh, dunno where you got this nugget of information from but the newer G4 systems are DDR based.

Re:Actually, the G4 could have a long life...

[Datafage]

It takes DDR RAM but the doubled bandwidth goes unused, as the G4 has limited memory bandwidth regardless of the bandwidth capacity of the RAM controller and RAM itself.

Re:Actually, the G4 could have a long life...

[SiliconJesus101]

Ahh, I guess this is coming:

"According to Motorola sources, a tweaked version of the Apollo 7450 G4, the 7470, will be ready for volume production shortly after the end of Q2, in time for a summer ramp. The 7470 will be manufactured on a 0.13 micron process, allowing for a smaller die size with room for 512K of L2 cache, and support up to 4MB of DDR-SDRAM L3 cache. The 7470 supports a modified bus protocol, MPX+, which supports double data transfer and which should effectively run at 266Mhz according to sources."

as taken from http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/24018.html

Re:Actually, the G4 could have a long life...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the nothbridge-to-RAM bus, it's the northbridge-to-CPU bus (the Front Side Bus) that is the problem. You'd have to re-design (the northbridge and) the G4 CPU to get the FSB on par with a DDR memory subsystem!

You're right. Absolutely

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple's laptops primary target market is NOT gamers, "

How could it be? There aren't any cutting edge games on the Mac. Hasn't been in over a decade.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I *am* a long-time Mac user.

+5 Unfortunate but True

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad this will be modded down and ignored, just like anything else that criticises Apple's marketing bullshit.

Arrogant Americans

[blixel]

a little competition from Motorola can only be good for us consumers!

What about non us consumers? You self centered americans are always thinking about yourselves.

Re:Arrogant Americans

[primalamn]

Us consumers, as in you and me. Not U.S. consumers. Twit

Re:Arrogant Americans

[parksie]

I think the humour was lost there somehow :)

Re:Arrogant Americans

[blixel]

Us consumers, as in you and me. Not U.S. consumers. Twit

Jeez... were the [funny] ... [/funny] tags *really* necessary for people to get the joke? Lighten up.

Managed switches and spanning tree

[zerofoo]

Are you connected to a managed switch? I noticed this phenomenon (with fast booting computers) on networks that have spanning tree enabled on managed switches. Some managed switches have a "fast mode" to prevent this from happening. If your network archetecture doesn't require spanning tree, disable it and your DHCP requests will be answered much faster.

-ted

Re:Managed switches and spanning tree

[bombadillo]

Thanks for the tip. I will check that out. However, I have seen it on XP at home and at work on different machines.

Re:Give this a miss

[Jord]

The tying of the OS to the Hardware is a BONUS not a negative. While you cannot remove Aqua as the Desktop manager on OS X (and who would want to) you can customize it very easily. You obviously speak out of ignorance when it comes to OS X.

Of course if you think Windows is a better than OS X then you need to seek professional help or you really have not been paying attention at all to the world around you.

Opinions are a great thing. Even though yours is seriously flawed in many many ways, at least you have one of your own.

Linux may be infinitely customizable it is also significantly harder to use and a lot less polished than OS X. I use Linux on my servers, it works great. On my desktop I run OS X. Using Linux on your desktop, right now, is a waste of time. You spend more time "customizing" the operating system than you do getting any work done. But I guess that is ok when you are in tbe basement but does not work too well in the business world.

I look forward to the day Linux works even half as well on the Desktop that OS X does. Then I can recycle all of these Windows machines in the office into KDE/Linux machines and remove all of the virus threats.

Re:What a troll post

[NeoSkandranon]

I have used XP since it was released, and never ever have I seen the behavior you describe...

Again, the Megahertz Myth rears it's head.

[gaudior]

Not to mention completely ignoring the substantial differences between the G4 and the G3.
I have an iBook 700, which has continued to get faster with each new OS release. The only real limiting factor for me now is the hard drive size. I'm contemplating a DIY upgrade of the hard drive, as soon as my Applecare runs out.

By contrast, my desktop machine is a Beige G3, with a 400mhz G4 upgrade. That machine seems faster than my laptop, and it probably is, using benchmarks.

Re:Again, the Megahertz Myth rears it's head.

[guacamole]

You really are fulling yourself if you believe that a 700MHz G3 or even a 800MHz G4 is close or better in performance to a 2GHz mobile Pentium 4 laptop at doing anything except for well crafted Photoshop benchmarks and perhaps one or two other niche applications (notice Apple's reluctance to publish the Spec2000 scores for either G3 or G4 CPUs. They don't because their numbers suck).

Re:Again, the Megahertz Myth rears it's head.

[blasphemi]

Come on. He never said it had the computing power that can be compared to a 2GHz mobile P4, he just stated that the performance was not an issue for him with his setup.

I have a 1GHz powerbook and I have no problem whatsoever with performance. Sure, I wouldn't mind if it was faster, but nothing that I consider being a problem.

Re:Again, the Megahertz Myth rears it's head.

[gaudior]

I don't care about the numbers. It's the performance that counts. This iBook is by far the best computer I have ever used, and that includes a variety of Dell, IBM and HP portables, desktop and rack servers.
Performance is the issue, not the clock speed.

Re:What a troll post

[grocer]

It depends on how the network is configured...my iBook doesn't get an IP until the DNS gives it one...because that's how I have it setup...neither do my Windows Boxen...because once again, that's how I have it setup.

Although, come to think of it, my XP box does have an IP on boot...as I have Ghostscript/virtual printer drivers setup for the Macs and I gave it a fixed IP so the they could always find the printer.

Re:You're right. Absolutely

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on crack?

Re:Oh brother

[Jord]

What a fucking idiot. Try realizing that the bold denotes emphases on the word and when you read the parent that it replied to, a normal person would realize that the emphases was designed to reference his implication that a PowerBook cannot be used in a professional setting.

Go back to your hole.

feel the burn

[ndogg]

Oh, and I don't want to burn my lap.

Heh, yeah, that's for sure...

Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

This is sure to get modded down by this crowd, but...

Moderators, please don't disappoint him. Obviously drooling uses his laptop only for basic stuff, and this entire conversation doesn't apply to the 99% of the /. crowd that actually need power in their computers.

Your logic is unreasonable!

[2nd Post!]

So you have a 500MHz G3, spent $1,100 on it, and it's lasted you 4 years.

You have an 800MHz G4 and you think the 1.25GHz PowerBook would be hands down better.

Why do you think $2,500 spent now won't last you for, oh, 5 years? Why do you think it would be obsolete in two months if your G3 isn't obsoleted by your G4?

Just because Apple releases a G5 doesn't make the G4 obsolete. The *only* reasonable argument I can come up with is if Apple releases the G5, then you can purchase a G4 PowerBook for even less!

Re:Your logic is unreasonable!

[valkraider]

It is more of a psychological issue to me. A G3 iMac is not that far from a G4 iMac in terms of practicality and functionality. But a G5 is more than just a processor improvement. They improved the entire architecture immensely...

I am sorry, but I *am* human - and it just hurts when you spend a bunch of money on something that just a month or two more you could have got something WAY better. (You know things always get better - but this is a BIG jump we are talking about here...)

Rather irrational - maybe. But I do like to at least FEEL good about where all that money went. Despite the *real* benefits and all that... :)

actually, its not "horseshit"

[5 Second Rule]

I'm pretty sure the parent thread was referring to programs such as Native Instruments' Reaktor used in conjunction with sequencers like Cubase or Logic. In the electronic music scene, where the Powerbook has an iconic presence, software synthesizers like Reaktor are often used and each one you have running in real-time takes lots of processor speed. The more of that speed you have, the more complex synths you can run. I guarantee it doesn't take long to run out of CPU overhead with programs like this.

Similarly, if you are doing any kind of real-time video processing/manipulation, you're gonna want as much CPU power as you can get.

Re:actually, its not "horseshit"

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the pro musicians I know who use notebooks on stage use multiple laptops, or pre-record as many of the softsynths as they can get away with, because you do NOT want that softsynth to crash or skip when you're on stage.

Last setup I worked on was a sequencer running on a Powerbook with a rackmount PC for the softsynths. Worked really nicely, too. The rack PC fits in nicely with the rest of the rack of effects and synths.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[jhesse]

All true geeks boot their Macs in verbose mode. The uber-geeks boot to single-user and manually load the TCP stack.

Re:Newb

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, man, go easy on him. Sucking cock is tough! You've gotta know how to maintain just the right rhythm and pressure while keeping your teeth out of the way. You've gotta know where your limit is so you don't choke or gag. You've gotta know how to tell whether he wants to cum in your mouth or on your face. There's a lot to keep track of!

Don't underestimate sucking cock. It's very difficult.

Re:Applications (64-bit laptops)

[badasscat]

Well, you can buy 64-bit laptops today. They're just not x86 or Mac/PPC based.

No?

It's ugly and I wouldn't buy one, but yes, there are 64 bit x86 laptops out there, on the market, right now. And they're not expensive at all.

Note to self

[sammy baby]

After reading the followups here...

Note to self: STOP MAKING JOKES, sammy baby. When nobody can tell you're making a joke, it's usually because you're not funny.

Re:Note to self

[Elwood P Dowd]

Lighten up, sammy. I got it.

Hold on to that

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS X is easier to learn than those operating systems, sorry. Judging by your past posts, you're probably too uneducated to be making more than minimum wage anyhow, so I guess you should be moderated (Score:0 Wrong, but Cute).

Keep up the good work, rookie!

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Aardpig]

Aaaaactually, there is a grain of truth there. For integers and fixed point calcs, true, there will be no difference in precision between 32 and 64 bit procs, just a difference in the actual range of numbers that can be dealt with.

But we are discussing 32-bit vs 64-bit chips. To claim that a 32-bit chip can't do 64-bit arithmetic is peverse. And to claim that Intel 32-bit chips can't handle 64-bit arithmetic natively is just plain wrong.

Ok I'll bite...

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

Try a little KY.

Re:curious

[tsmithnj]

I bought by 1st Apple EVER last weekend (iBook 933). Just for kicks. After only a few days I believe I will never purchase a non-Apple again....

Laptops != Desktops

[System.out.println()]

Unfortunately, laptops will not last anywhere near as long as desktops dollar-for-dollar. While it probably would be more than two months before the G4's become anywhere near obsolete, $2500 is a lot to pay for something that might not be top-of-the-line in a month or two. Technically, you're both right - the grandparent will be better off waiting for the G5 book; most people will be happy buying a lower-priced G4 book after the G5's come out.

Re:Laptops != Desktops

[2nd Post!]

Dollar for dollar, a laptop *will* last exactly as long as a desktop.

The device is not obsoleted by the release of new hardware, the device is obsoleted by the needs and requirements of the user.

If you buy the PowerBook now for features X, Y, and Z, and are satisfied, then you should have no problems doing X, Y, and Z for the next N years as well. This carries just as well for the desktop as the laptop.

The difference is that a desktop is more flexible, in that you can upgrade and replace components to meet future needs; however, this is untrue in *this* situation because we are comparing to a G3 iMac and a G4 iMac, both of which cannot be upgraded like the conventional view of a desktop!

Here's my logic:

Happy with 800MHz G4
1.25GHz G4 will make him happy too
1.25GHz G4 will last him longer than an 800MHz G4

Happy with a 500MHz G3
Long life with a 500MHz G3
Longer life with a 1.25GHz G4

As per cost? That's up to the buyer, as to what he can and is willing to pay.

Re:Laptops != Desktops

[System.out.println()]

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. My logic is basically that, if you want a $400, $300, even $200 desktop, you can find one that will last you a number of months if not more. The same money will likely not buy you *any* laptop, or if it does, one that is probably too old for most people to use.
Like I said, I'm ok with agreeing to disagree here. I've been in too many drawn-out arguments on /. to care anymore.

Re:Give this a miss

[Uber Banker]

Are you a retard?

Re:You're right. Absolutely

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, hell.

Warcraft III. Diablo II. Let's just say "All Blizzard games" and get it over with.

UT2k4 runs on the Mac, I believe.

Simcity 4?

So there are some. It ain't the PC, but options exist.

Re:Apple Advertising Works!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux user of today:

We have a GUI over the top of CLI... when X works with our video card... if we can get the binary drivers from the manufacturer to work... which they do... but only on Sundays... after a full moon... if I type left-handed.

And if KDE ever finishes loading (after I type in my password left-handedly)... finishes... loading... someday... I can play Frozen Bubble! Wahoo!

Re:iBook performance

[guacamole]

The price is a concern of course. For the price of an iBook I can (and could) get a very decently performing x86 laptop without having to spend at least $2000, which is the price of the Powerbook.

Re:Google cache links

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we're quite a bunch. We should have some sort of meeting and discuss this. I propose we meet up at the next troll word abuser and discuss this in depth.

On the other hand, karma-whoring could be considered a form of trolling -- trolling for karma, rather than for flames/n00b-answers. Now, there's a topic for our first meeting!

Re:curious

[koan]

well if you can buy one for "kicks" you're not on a budget (or at least a larger budget than most)
But really why do you think it's better?

Amen

[Alan Partridge]

Anyway, any self-respecting MacGeek knows that you can predict Apple's product release schedule about as well as you can predict the moods of a pregnant woman.

Re:G4 Powerbook Have Screen Problems

[SoTuA]

If you are a serious video producer or graphic designer, you should be using a G5 tower with a nice large screen, not a laptop.

Beg to differ. A 12" powerbook has proved to be prefectly functional regarding graphic design. (My brother has been using one for making TV commercials, and damn it works!)

WRONG

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look on the Mac sites (including apple), the 15" PB users are only getting 2 hours *at best* with a single battery.

Its why I didn't buy a PB for Xmas last year; who would buy a laptop with a 2 hour battery life? You can't even watch a frigging DVD.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Anonymous Meoward]

And, speaking of humour...my prof's PowerBook core dumped yesterday as he was lecturing

Yep, I saw a Mac running MacOS X 10.0 crash a few years ago. White on black text suddenly showed up on the screen.. during an Apple demo no less!

Of course, this happened during Apple's Worldwide Devleoper's Conference in 2001, and the Apple engineers were demonstrating how to debug the kernel remotely by first causing a debug trap, so this probably doesn't count. :)

Re:It'd make me feel guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

How about "Queer eye" for the Mac guy? I'd bet it will be a hit show. :laugh:

Re:You're right. Absolutely

[Anonymous Coward]

"Warcraft III. Diablo II. Let's just say "All Blizzard games" and get it over with."

And you know they're *GREAT* because you played them on the PC about 2 years ago.

Nice. But hardly a gamer's machine. No product.

Poster is a troll

[AntiGenX]

Pudge, do your reading buddy... In the article linked to this post it says: "At 1.42GHz, the chip consumes 20W of power", in reference to the newly updated G4.

In this article we see, "The 970FX, meanwhile, consumes a mere 12.3W at 1.4GHz." Now which one of those would you rather have on top of your "small package"?

You know

[Anonymous Coward]

In the time it took to write that clever riposte, you probably could've changed the oil, making your jiffy lube manager a little happier.

Instead, you continue to fecklessly defend your cluelessness on the internet at large.

I develop professional applications... yea... sure...the only thing you develop is bunions.

Another troll post

[Anonymous Coward]

"Reboot it every 6 months when you upgrade the software!"

Hmm. Apple has updates every 2 weeks that require a reboot. But your apple is specialer and probably doesn't need all that stuff.

Re:curious

[tsmithnj]

I was flabbergasted at how simple it was to configure. ! example of many: I spent a couple of hours dicking aroud with XP to get it to work with my wireless router. X just asked me which network to connect to and I was done...... Plus the UI is just plain cool.

Water Cooling...

[kiwioddBall]

A G5 Apple Powerbook would mean my switch to Apple from x86 based machines - owning an iPod has pushed me part way.

I think Apple would be wise to go straight to a Powerbook G5 to catch the momentum that the Apple brand currently has. A so-so G4 update would not capture the imagination.

Lets hope that Apples rumoured current experimentation with water cooling bears fruit.

Re:What a troll post

[Slack3r78]

That's pretty impressive, what with XP only being 2 1/2 years old.

sigh, only on slashdot...

[juuri]

... would a comment based in such ignorance get modded up. You do realize that different CPUs need differing amounts of cache to achieve the same net effect, right?

Re:sigh, only on slashdot...

[coopaq]

would a comment based in such ignorance get modded up. You do realize that different CPUs need differing amounts of cache to achieve the same net effect, right?

You do realize that he mentioned Linux on his system?

It's the only trump card you can play here!

Re:sigh, only on slashdot...

[jargoone]

You do realize that if you stop focusing on the trees, you'll eventually realize that you're in the middle of a forest, right?

Oh, please

[Temsi]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

How do I mod an original post as Flamebait?

MOD ABUSE ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is any opinion that does not agree with Pudge's get modded down? Its a legimate post with facts

Re:G4 Powerbook Have Screen Problems

[letdownjournals]

... Not to mention, dual-monitor support is built right in.

Having a tiny notebook that's a breeze to carry around, that can be hooked up to a large screen with needed is pretty handy. Not that this is a Mac-only feature or anything.

MOD ABUSE ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

Why was this post modded down? WHY?

This is simply another opinion. But becuase it doesn't agree with the Mac spin, it gets modded down. Thats very shameful

Moderators, you should be ashamed of youselves

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a Mac user. I can accept criticism but it seems like quite a few of you cannot.

Just about every post in this thread that criticizes, even LIGHTLY, Macs has been modded down. But if the post is bashing PC's or saying good things about Macs (even some factually incorrect ones), it gets promptly modded up.

What is up with that? I thought this was a place of free discussion, not moderation tyranny. I'm really embarrased to be a Mac user today. Its the few zealots in our community who really give us a bad rap and want to shut out legitimate discussion.

Mods, those of you responsible need to get your priorities straight. You purpose is to keep the signal-to-noise ration up, not to shut out opposing opinion!

Mac Reviewers...

[letdownjournals]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

I'm a Mac user. I love Macs. But I have to ask, why does the Mac press have to be so &$#% smug? Come on, guys, you're giving the rest of us a bad name.

Penance

[penguiniator]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower.

If you really want to vanquish your guilt, get yourself an 8088 with a monochrome text mode display running CP/M. Be sure to pay an obscene amount of money for it. Do not allow yourself to plug into any networks. And wear a gray and black ribbon proclaiming how much you care about those less fortunate computer users who have to cope with graphical interfaces and wireless Internet connections.

You can't get G5 in an IServe either

[raresilk]

I know - I tried to order one last week. The G5 IServes are total vaporware, apparently. Maybe you can get one if you have political connections, or something. They will let you pay for it, but will not commit to a ship date. Sound familiar? Then the salesperson gives you a hard sell, totally rehearsed, about why you don't really need the G5 IServe fastest-computer-in-the-world, how about a nice G4? Fsck that.

Nice way to treat someone who only last year decided to try her first Mac. I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering how long Apple is going to hold onto us "switchers" with vapor products.

Re:You can't get G5 in an IServe either

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree. There is NO WAY to get a G5 in an IServe. I also agree that's very upsetting.

If you don't mind moving to an XServe, however, you may have more luck.

Your Mileage May Differ

[darkmeridian]

Maybe that's what *you* meant.

what about the AMD 64

[mantera]

Apart from it being Apple hardware and OS... how does the G5 compare to the AMD athlon 64, which is available on many laptops now...

My bet on the next refresh...

[barfy]

The next refresh is NOT going to be a G5. The basic reason is 64 bit traces. This is *not* trivial to do and meet the other design goals of the Powerbook. Portability and Battery life are two of the most important design goals of the PB and IB lines. Apple does not offer "desktop" replacement laptops (where weight and power requirements are not as important, as they mostly sit at a desk, and are plugged in).

This is not quite the same as the Athlon 64 or Opteron notebooks. They are Mainly used in LARGE, HEAVY laptops. And the Athlon 64 and Opteron are generally not currently purchased because they are 64 bits, it is because they are kick-ass I86-32 processors, that also do 64 bits.

So... This is what I would expect... Current PB parts moved down to the IB line, with less l2 cache. Artificially slower machines, but much faster than currently. They are going to be forced to bump the ibooks more, because of GarageBand. It just barely runs and there is too much lantency on an Ibookg4 800. The Low-end Ibook owner and a typical garage band user are going to intersect too much to not serve them better on this box.

I would also expect the Ibook to support a SuperDrive. Prices have fallen significantly enough to provide this and still maintain a good profit margin.

I would expect the ports and graphic parts to remain the same (but maybe a bump in the graphics part, but probably not).

The PB to get ~ 20 to 30% speed bump across the line. Remaining g4 (see reason above).

Same ports. Top of the line ATI mobility chips. To speed up Quartz Extreme, and provide better game playabilty.

Faster Hard Drives.

More Memory (512 and 1 G will be standard models)

Finally, the second shoe of the HP deal will drop, and enabled superdrives. With updated Idvd and Itunes for creating lables for your dvds.

These are two compelling upgrades, that should see significant performance improvement across the lines. Maintain profit and Price points. The Lightscribe enhancment gives a decent and exciting marketing message...

And then you can wait about 6 more monthes for the engineering challenges of making a true apple powerbook g5.

How times change

[sacrilicious]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package

Guilty about what, how useful the machine would be? Can't say I relate. But I will note my recollection that when Apple released the powerbook 170 (a 25MHz chip) circa 1991, I remember the tag line they used: "Take the AWESOME POWER of a IIci anywhere you go." Perhaps true enough at the time, but believe me: now as then, this will seem like nothing in a few years.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[jo_ham]

Well, give them a chance - VA Tech went and bought up the first 1100 of them, and promptly got themselves into the top 3 spot of fastest supercomputers in the world, all for a mere $5.2 million dollars.

The two above it (Earth simulator and something at Los Alamos) are 15% and 30% faster than the G5 supercomputer, but cost $215 milliion and $330 million respectively.

And yes, Apple was the best quote. VA tech asked for quotes from HP, Sun and others on x86 solutions and Apple was the cheapest.

Give it time.

G5 Powerbook....no time soon

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I don't think they will have a G5 Powerbook anytime soon. Maybe next year or the end of this year, but not this spring. The G5 is as much of a change as the move to PowerPC was way back when. It's different. When IBM was developing the G5, they did not have the same concern that Intel and AMD did....that concern was make it so it works with both 32 and 63 bit OS's and to make it so it did not cost ASUS and others a bunch of bucks to make a MB. IBM did not have to do this. Granted, much of the commmand set is the same, but there are obviously things physical wise (MORE then power consumption) that need to be implemented on a much smaller scale before the G5 can move to a Powerbook. Also, my G4 1GHz 12 inch power book runs rings around my big monster P4 @.53 GHz machien I also have. The 1 GHz G4 handles video just fine. I don't have alot of games because thats not what I bought a Powerbook for. If I wanted games, I'd have bought a PS2, XBox or GameCube. I bought my Powerbookas a SMALL, fast work platform taht can also edit videos. It EXCELS at this! I think what we will see soon is G5 iMac's. I see even professionals (a pastor at church works in a graphics arts shop and uses a 17 inch iMac) using iMacs because the look cool. ANd for the leet Mac users, LAY OFF OF HOPING FOR THE G5 and just go by a new Powerbook!

Re:G5 Powerbook....no time soon

[EvanTaylor]

I do not need to "hope" for a G5 powerbook. We all know they are coming. We just do not all know when. I would assume that the G5 powerbook will come when the consumer product lines are upped a bit.

I want a G5 powerbook because I cannot afford both a workstation and a decent laptop for what I do yet (student), and will not need the power a G5 mac until about the time the powerbook comes out (not heavy into Vector Works, and they havent updated it for the G5 yet either).

Never ask Mac users to lay off asking for the G5 powerbook, if they intend to buy one when it comes out, ship them a good product asap because the market is there. If people don't ask for it, companies wont sell it.

Re:G5 Powerbook....no time soon

[Chanc_Gorkon]

True. I want a G5 anything...desktop or powerbook....BUT....the common thread now a days on Mac rumor websites are.....

WHINE WHINE!!! APPLE WHEN IS THE G5 coming out....

My next machine will be a G5 wink wink. They should be out in a month or so....

Pant pant pant DAMMIT WHERE's my G5!

This kind of posts gets a LITTLE old when reading 500 of them! :D

All I am saying is calm the heck down....what do you want Apple releasing junk just because your salivating over it? Apple produces great hardware....they will release no G5 Powerbook before it's time! :)

Um...

[EaTiN cOfFeE bEaNs]

I don't want a G5 on my lap anyway. It'd make me feel guilty, having that much power in a small package while other people can't even get it in a PC tower. Oh, and I don't want to burn my lap.

You could get one of these.

Re:Um...

[seinman]

You mean I can finally own my own "Sorry! Your session has timed out after a period of inactivity."?!?! AMAZING! How much will this fancy new technology cost?

Did you actually read it?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the link, if you make that change, you will break OS 10.3.2

Prototype G5 Powerbook

[rwurth]

I think that this guy had a prototype G5 Powerbook

Clit?

[System.out.println()]

First: for the uneducated, a (laptop) 'clit' is the little red blob that sits in the middle of some laptops and controls the cursor like a joystick.

And second: I DESPISE the (laptop) clit. It's almost like using mouse keys, only you have to keep your finger more or less balanced on a quarter-inch ball of rubber. I for one am glad the clit is not widely used on laptops anymore.
For anyone who doesn't like the (laptop) clits, right-clicking on a trackpad is an excercise in frustration. Honestly, I've even played strategy games on my one-button trackpad and within about 15 minutes of adjusting to it, I could keep up with the others at the LAN party who were on a mouse. I could never do anything like that with a "normal", two-button pad or a clit.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Awptimus Prime]

Yeah, something like this happens a couple of times they release a new chip. What good does the cheaper super computer do if the consumer level goods are priced so high?

For the price of a new G5, I could get a good quad cpu P4 up and running.

The moderators today are more looney than usual. I get modded troll for mentioning the headline as a troll? Perhaps it was the executive toy reference? In that case, I take it back. From now on, I will consider Apples to be teenage girl's computers. That should be a happy middle-ground for everyone.

Re:What a troll post

[Beek]

I use my 12" PowerBook with both the LCD and and another monitor, so I get that nice 2 desktop arrangement. If I put it to sleep, it switches to a mirrored displays, or the external monitor just ceases to exist. So I always just shut down, and it is annoying since that means I have to boot the thing a few times per day. I'd agree with you if this wasn't an issue.

Re:What a troll post

[Jord]

How odd. I use my 12" in a dual monitor at work and at home. Not only does it remember the configuration when I put it to sleep, it realizes that I am using a different monitor at home and changes everything to match it.

Using an old monitor perhaps?

Re:What a troll post

[Beek]

In fairness, yes it is an old monitor. A 15 incher that's about 6 years old now... But it's still working great, so I probably won't buy a new one. Even so, it's still odd that OS X can't figure it out.

Heh, I'll have to give it another chance next time I have access to a newer monitor.

Re:Another Article Troll from Pudge

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for supporting the anti-slash jihad!

Athlon 64 laptop vs. Apple

[King_TJ]

So, I assume that new Athlon 64 laptop of yours has a keyboard with characters that light up in the dark, right?

Built-in wireless G, gigabit ethernet, as well as Firewire 400, 800 and USB 2.0 ports, and a wide-screen display panel?

Just as thin and light weight as an Apple Powerbook? No exposed doors/covers to break off anyplace either, right?

I considered a new PC laptop right around Xmas time.... I looked and looked, and in the end, I bought a Powerbook G4 15". Yeah, it costs more - but there's more to it than just CPU speed.

Re:Athlon 64 laptop vs. Apple

[charnov]

Why in the world do you need a self lit keyboard? I can see my keyboard from the glow of the LCD if I so inclined.

Built in 802.11g, gigabit ethernet would be a no (I don't have a gigabit switch yet so it is kinda silly to put this on a laptop...especially considering the load Gb puts on a CPU. I'll wait til TCP offloading becomes normal for Gb chips).

Firewire 400 (1), and USB2 (4). Wide screen display.

It is thicker (has a tray loading CDRW, flash memory readers, and PCMCIA slot to add thickness. Also, as a general rule, the thinner the portable the higher the price. There are much thinner PCs, but that's not what I was after. Besides, it is just .2 inches thicker). It weighs just over 7 lbs. No exposed covers or doors.

And it is a hell of a lot less expensive (with the discount it came under $1300. That's less than the lowest model in Apples lineup. Say what you want, but this makes a massive difference in buying a disposable computer...which is what laptops are).

It isn't as pretty as the PowerBooks. Apple still makes damn sexy machines, but this is a workhorse machine.

My mistake

[Valdrax]

Whoops. I was actually talking about the PPC 970 having core full cores on one die, but apparently, my info is out of date, and the 970 shipped as a single-core CPU only. The 90 nm 970FX will also ship as a single-core CPU, and a dual-core and SMT model is expected to be the next replacement (but the rumor mill thought that the 970 would've been dual-core as well).

RE: disposable computers

[King_TJ]

Ultimately, aren't *all* computers really "disposable"? I mean, the average PC gets swapped out or upgraded within 3 years or less. Laptops run the same software packages that the desktops do, so they're subject to the exact same rate of depreciation....

About the only difference is the argument that a desktop system allows installation of faster CPUs, to prolong its lifespan -- but this is more of a "straw dummy" argument than reality. By the time you're ready to upgrade, Intel has usually moved on to a new model of CPU that doesn't fit the socket on your existing board.

As a rule, Apple systems have been "useful" for longer periods of time than their PC counterparts, so I take that into account when I look at the initial price. (If you don't believe me, do a quick search on eBay for an old Apple laptop like the "Pismo" model of the Powerbook, and see how much they fetch. Compare that to a PC laptop of the same era on there...)

Re:You're right. Absolutely

[Achernar]

You mean the 2 years ago that the games shipped on hybrid CDs, right? Blizzard (and sometimes MacSoft) is very good at maintaining simultaneous Macintosh versions of all their games. I haven't owned a Mac in almost 10 years, but I find myself drifting back towards getting one - and one of the reasons is that the quality and frequency of Mac ports of popular games seems to be increasing - and in many cases, the release dates of those games are inching closer to their PC counterparts. With Apple gaining marketshare slowly but surely, I think some attention is being paid (and only more shoujld be paid in the future) to courting gamers in some capacity.

Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix Users

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.

I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.

Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.

Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.

There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.

Apple provides a technical note on how to remap the keyboard, but provides no solution to the hardware problems caused by the design of the ADB keyboard. This tech note helps foreign language users, but does nothing for the CapsLock/Ctrl problem.

Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 13 years. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)

Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.

Re:Give this a miss

[pHDNgell]

You're doing video on a powerbook harddrive?! You know that Apple uses 4200 and 5400 RPM harddrives in it's laptops. That's way too slow to do video capturing of any decent quality.

I'll keep that in mind and do my best to inform everyone else who does the same that the work they're doing is not, in fact, possible.