Slashdot Mirror
SBC CWA Strike Imminent
Tmack writes "SBC union workers are preparing (again) to strike after negotiations have broken down between CWA and SBC. What this means to the average person? As long as the strike is taking place, orders for new service and repair of existing services with SBC will be delayed as only non-union workers and temps will be around to complete the work. Latest word is the strike is now planned for Friday night through next Tuesday. Check here(1),
here(2), and here(3)
for more info."
Gotta love those long weekends :)
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -RAH
I can't be the only person here who has no idea what this is about...
"We're sorry, the number you have reached has been disconnected or is no longer in service. You can try calling for help but everyone is on strike, thanks."
Does this mean I can stop paying my bill 'cause no one will be there to shut my service off?
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Things would be much worse off if it weren't for organized labor.
IANA Economics Major
looks like one of the major bargaining issues is outsourcing. This is from an interview w/ one of the union members "We recently made 10 test calls to DSL technical support. One went to Florida, one went to Texas and eight went to India," Rosen said. "We would rather see these jobs go to people in Indianapolis than people in India.". Kinda sucks for them.
A little clue anyone? Please?
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Isn't this a little localized of a topic to be posted on Slashdot? I mean we have strikes here in New York all the time and I don't see it making the front page. I mean even if it affects 13 states that is not that much in the grand scale of things. Con-Ed goes on strike and it might only affect one state but that includes around 8-10 million people.
Someone could at least explain if this will have an effect on us.
Amazing how their practices are fully legalized. If I were to tell a company:
"Joe won't be coming in to work and you can't fire him nor can you hire a temporary replacement for him. If you want Joe to work again, you must cough up some money."
I'd be arrested and charged with extortion. It has always baffled me that this kind of behavior is actually legally sanctioned.
WTF is CWA & SBC???
IIRC, the CWA has contract language with each of the Baby Bells that effecively prevents outsourcing of call center staff to other states, much less other countries...it makes sense from the union's perspective, but the telcos can't even transfer calls to other call centers if a local center gets overloaded (say, lots of downed lines due to bad weather...).
C - can't W - walk A - afraid They didn't do it at Verizon and they won't do it with SBC. The union doesn't have the strike fund available.
go read the definition of capitalism.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Yep... unfortately very few of us need how-to instructions for our phones. The only time I ever remembering calling the phone company was about line noise... that involves sending out a tech.
My company may send me down there to fill in on the critical stuff if they don't reach an agreement. I hope to hell that they do cuz i would bet the picketers are packin... :P
2) exacly why is this news? just because it's in the US? (not sure, just assuming).
People do live outside the US, you know.
Your TLAs are DOA, why R U not bothering 2 explain WTF U R talking about?
IOW, who/what are SBC and CWA?
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
I heard my dad make some mention of this a few days ago. Of course, this doesn't surprise me. My father spoke of SBC cutting retirement benefits in the future just to get people to retire early before the lower benefits took place.
He also spoke of his animosity towards SBC because of their push for Technicians to get more jobs completed in less time. Thus, you get people doing a job and meeting the most basic requirements to complete the job, so they end up closing out the job quickly.
My dad has a wall of Customer Service awards, but his managers would always complain about his inability to close jobs out quickly. My dad always told them he'd much rather take his time and make sure the customer is happy than do a barely-done job with a disgruntled customer.
Oh well, it doesn't matter now. The older generation of Technicians who actually care about the customer are retiring while newer non-union/contractors fill the slots
Even my dad doesn't have SBC for his phones anymore, even with the retiree discount
Hello. You must be American :)
:)
You people all (most) seem to not like unions. Why? Over here (Europe), they make sure we get the wages we deserve and don't get fired for stupid things like if the boss doesn't like you or whatever. I've never heard of any unreasonable strikes... Have you been indoctrinated from birth or do you have any real reasons to dislike unions?
and why do we care
Whom would I contact to get that? I am temporarily unemployed (literally between jobs) and could use some work.
"Latest word is the strike is now planned for Friday night through next Tuesday."
Workers' rights, my ass. They just want the long weekend. Come on down to Billy's Bear Barn where we're on strike every night! Tuesdays women strike for half price! Yee-haw!
Marge : Mmm Homey, you're the union leader. I'm so proud of you. ... mmm organized crime.
Lisa : Finally you get to share the fair share of the working force.
Homer : And make life-long contacts with organized crime.
go read the definition of capitalism.
Where in the definition of capitalism does it say that if workers aren't satisfied with their wages, they have the right to hold my business hostage and I'm powerless to do anything (such as find other workers) unless I meet their demands or they reduce their demands?
The definition of capitalism would more likely say that if workers aren't satisfied with their wages and think they're being shafted by management, they can all go and start up their own competing business and offer better service and pay their workers higher wages.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I think they perfer the term SCABS.. sorry cant help but pick on em..
I've never heard of any unreasonable strikes...
There are some of those too.... like in here in Norway ATM. Everything isn't black and white, though... a little bit of unions are good, too much bad. Key is to achieve a balance, as in most other areas.
... only non-union people will be working, so getting things done will take *longer* ?
From the piece of the pie or we stick you dept. Thanks Timothy, we know where your sentiments lie, clearly in the camp of the ruling class, not the workers. I can't wait for all the 'unions ar teh suck!' posts.
Unions brought us child labor laws, eight hour days, overtime pay, the weekend, paid vacations, etc. You think the bosses just gave us all that? Hardly. People fought and died for those benefits and protections, and even if you aren't in a union, rest assured that unions and the threat of unions has made your job better.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Yes. But if you believe in the concept of a 40 hour work week being a fair thing that we all deserve, then you can thank unions for that. Otherwise you'd be working 60-80 hours a week and getting paid for 24 hours a week. Can there be too much of a good thing? Yes. But, I'd far rather have unions around than not. Besides, it's not the unions that are the problem. It the corruption within the unions, just as there is corruption within managment. The bad guys in management want you to work for as little as possible. The bad guys in the union want you to pay your dues even if you don't believe in the union. You're getting fucked from behind by managment and raped in the mouth by the union. Of course that's greatly oversimplified. Unions still do more good than harm and I side with the Union even though I happen to be management where I work.
Who is Twirlip of the Mists?
No, my bad english is a representation of poor education, not my nationality. :)
-- C Younger ceyounger@taius.com
Can't speak for SBC, but if this was Verizon in New York, my response would be "How could you tell?"
Mener du transportarbeiderne? Er jo bare rettferdig at de skal få grei lønn og...
wheres the mod option for -1 "Stupid Tool"?
Historically, most, if not all, of the benefits that all employees are guaranteed by law were first instituted thanks to labor unions. Clearly, they have served their purpose in the past.
Now, you are right, there are unions that do more harm than good. They impose requirements to create meaningless jobs instead of letting companies become more efficient (and thereby creating new useful jobs or having more money for raises).
On the other hand, there are unions that are vital for protecting the employees. My wife is a teacher, and I've see how private non-unionized schools have taken advantage of her. Everything from expecting her to contribute financially to school fundraisers to attending a week-long out-of-state field trip (with no extra pay or provision in her contract). Of course, teachers are generally there because that's what they want to do, not for the money, which puts them in a prime position to be taken advantage of without a union to look out for their interests. (Of course, I have gripes with the political activities of teachers' unions, but that's another story.)
As a Brit who lives in America, there are some curious differences between European (or British anyway) and American unions. American unions seem only to be strong in a few selected industries, where British unionization is more widespread. However, where the unions are strong in the US they have a hold like the old pre-Thatcher British unions. Lots of silly rules to protect the members at all costs. If your company does a trade show in a unionized hall you are not allowed to carry anything in and out, you have to wait 2 hours for a union guy to come off his break and carry it for you.
union organizers have long been branded as communists and traitors.
There are others but most people in san jose have sbc for their internet service provider if they use dsl. They also provide local phone service and my wireless (cell phone) as well.
Since they're a big monopoly people in other parts of the US are stuck with them too.
It seems according to the message on-air, SBC (SouthwesternBell Communications) has been commanding ever-growing profits at a non-stop rate for the past 10+ years if I recall correctly and yet SBC has been cutting employee benefits and threatening to lower salaries while top executives find more ways to increase their salaries and bonuses.
They [SBC] don't have the excuse of failing profit margins or losses. They are just greedy. If the shareholders out there would vote their minds, they'd probably change out those in control... but then again, they're probably one in the same.
Dear SBC Customer,
This announcement is to help you prepare for the real possibility that your DSL connection may fail and thus be out of service during the possible labor dispute.
We recommend that you review What Should I Do If The Internet Goes Down? and make the necessary preparations.
Sincerely,
Management
Ok, I guess I can make some more sense of their attitudes now. Thanks.
The day that I accepted the new job, I got a phone call from my old shop. The union went to management and strong-armed them into restoring a lot of jobs in income-producing areas, including mine. I could have my old position back provided that I came to work the next day. I immediately accepted my old position, and called the new shop to let them know what happened and that I would be returning to my old job.
Good thing I did, too. Within six months of my returning to my old job, the new shop circulated a petition amoung the workers to get rid of the union. As soon as the union was gone, they moved all the first-tier tech support positions to India.
Lesson learned. Unions mean job security. No unions mean you take your chances.
Finding God in a Dog
...announcing a strike at the same time Cingular and AT&T are announcing approval of a merger. The "cost" of the merger is tied to the value of the stock. The value of the stock drops, and Cingular loses. The union is blackmailing the company into settling fast and sweet by timing their announcement to knock the stock prices down at a critical time.
If SBC has the gonadal substructure, they'll reply with "Well, with all these AT&T people coming on board, we'll be way over staffed, and we'll have to start cutting some jobs..."
Hey, I'm against both sides. I just enjoy a good corporate bloodbath. Movies are getting too expensive, news is free.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
The Communications Workers of America (CWA) has issued a press release, Communications Workers Set Strike at SBC Involving 100,000 Workers at Midnight Tomorrow:
The CWA also offers a See-n-Say with CWA Game.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
I mean, honestly. Having no technicians to fix things will mean what exactly?
An anecdote from my personal experience with them...
SBC was supposed to install DSL at my home. The equipment for my end came and I hooked it up, waiting for the date service was supposed to start. The day comes and goes with no DSL. I call them the next day and spend several hours on the phone with a tech. Finally, he comes to the conclusion that I don't seem to have DSL service.
In fact, he can't even find record of the order, despite them having sent me equipment. We get off the phone, and I am called not once, but three times by different companies they apparently contract with to let me know that my DSL service is down.
Finally, they get their act together and fix the problem. Over the next three days I received four phone calls and two in-person visits letting me know that they fixed my DSL service.
Never mind how SBC used to call me at my old address trying to sell me DSL (which wasn't offered in my area at the time). We actually ordered it the first time, and it took them two months of hassles to get the to admit they don't offer it in our area and get a refund for the two months of service they charged us for.
So I ask, how would I be able to tell that there was a strike? Oh, my phone wouldn't ring off the hook with notifications of information I already know.
~Dan
not my best coffee!!! oh wait... wrong SBC. It'd be helpful if acronyms are only used after the names have been stated in full form for the hard of thinking.
How do you define the wages you "deserve?" To me, what I "deserve" is what I can go out and get for my services. If I can get a certain wage, then I deserve it. If I cannot, then I need to find out what skills I need to get more money.
I have no problems with labor unions. An individual doesn't have what it takes to strongarm their employer individually so they need to go out and strongarm the employer as a group. If you want to form a group and try to force a bargain with your employer then that's fine, but I made an agreement with my employer when I signed up for the job for what I would make and what my working conditions would be. If that changes, then I will either try to renegotiate with my employer or I will leave.
As far as not getting fired for stupid things, I know my bosses follow their bottom line. If they hate you but you pull your weight, they're happy to keep you in their company.
Up the workers! Up the revolution! It's good to see that people still have the right to down tools and demand a better deal from their fat-cat bosses.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
This strike has to do with 'job security' you know, that thing that doesn't exist? These guys that are going to strike are bitching that
1) They are being outsourced by the next gen techno wonks (IP, VoIP, DSL, vs TDM DS0, etc)
2) SBC won't give them iron clad guarntees that they will have a job over the next 5 years, doing what they have been doing for the last 20...
3) Thier only legitimate bitch, I think, is that they arn't being offered a choice to train up to support the next gen stuff... That would be very cool, and we are doing that with the old telco guys at the CLEC I work at, they are all learning IP routing, Internet and VoIP at this very minute, so they won't be obsolete when everyone starts ordering SIP truncks instead or PRIs for their PBXs!
FYI, SBC = Southwestern Bell Company, the evil empire that purchased pac-bell and ameritech to control a very large portion of the local copper in the south and western United States.
This strike will affect not only Bell customers, but also all the CLECs that rely on reselling SBC infrastructure (like DSL, T1s, PRIs, etc)... Those orders will not be fullfilled, costing not only SBC money, but also all the CLECs and ISPs that rely on them. Which is why, IMHO, it is big deal.
The rest of us would like to know.
As the son, grandson, greatgrandson of coal miners, I have been indoctrinated to LOVE unions.
However, most of my personal experience with them is that they cripple companies; if you HAVE to pay your workers more money than you are making, and you can NOT fire someone who refuses to work because they are in the union, then the union sucks.
Unions are good, but out of control; I think of them as the #1 reason the U.S. now has a service economy (imaginary) instead of production economy (actually based on something).
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
I would like to know if these union members are setting themselves in a position to be fired for not working. Are they laying their entire career/retirement benifits on the line for two business days? I don't really see what the union is achieving here?
Jeoin
What a crock, i have working in a union environment before, and never will again, I have too good of a work ethic and end up carrying my fellow "workers" because they want to sleep or have a beer or 20.
Unions should be banned.
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully "designed" to have come into existence by chance.
Well think of the breakup of AT&T into the baby-bells as that scene where they freeze the liquid-metal terminator and shatter him into pieces ...... after a while they melt and all start flowing back together to recreate the whole .... that's what SBC (and to some extent Verizon) are ....
After reading many of the comments, many seem to be at a loss for what CWA and SBC are, and why the post given front-page coverage. CWA=Communications Workers of America, SBC=Doesn't have an exact definition, was formally Southwestern Bell. The reason for the strike, if it happens, will be due to cuts in health benefits, passing more expense to the workers and on job security issues, one of many would be using less contractors for new equipment installations. As for reasoning it may have been considered front page coverage is two part, first would probably be that SBC is a primary provider of telephone and data lines for the two largest US states, TX and CA. Plus with the other states involved this could affect over 1/3 of the US population. Second might be that over 102,000 workers are threatening to strike, even though half of the strike would fall during the weekend, two days without that many workers will defiantly have ramifications for SBC.
"Thats why everything that a union member touches costs 10x more! Want to move your desk? gotta call a union guy. wanna turn a screw? gotta call a union guy."
Spoken like a true champion of Indian outsourcing...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Because they own the wire in the ground, they are what is called a "natural monopoly". As a natural monopoly, they are obligated to provide a certain level of service. This makes strike threats very serious for them. In the US today, the most powerful unions are the public sector ones (eg, National Federation of Teachers) and the unions for monopolies (eg CWA) or legalized cartels (eg, Teamsters, American Medical Association).
There was a long and important time when unions were a clear force for progess. Now they are more a force for conservatism.
Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
Go over your monthly transfer, and your are billed at a rate of 10 cents per megabyte.
This happened to me once. "those are 1997 prices!" you say. Well, yes, I was overpaying for the hosting, but they had always been rock solid and I had a critical application running there which i wasnt going to touch, so I continued to pay the 49.99/month.
But when they charged me $85 last month for 850 mb of overage, I pulled the plug. 10c/mb is highway robbery. i asked the woman whether she wanted the $85 or whether they wanted my $50/month for a hosting plan that costs 6.95 everywhere else. I am no longer an SBC customer.
No sympathy for SBC now. Go strikers go!
Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make it a troll. Post a response, defend your point of view.
I know, it's because I used the phrase 'ruling-class,' isn't it? A rose by any other name...
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
When I worked for them (pre-divestiture) they were SWBC. Now that you mention it, I do remember Southern becoming BellSouth at or shortly after 1/1/1984, but the SBC thing must've escaped my attention.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
The strike starts on Friday morning (12:01 a.m.) and goes until Tuesday starts (12:01 a.m. again).
See the official CWA announcement.
Just because trade unions became their own special class of power-mongering hypocrites on many occassions, doesn't mean they didn't *also* provide a necessary counterbalance to company and management abuses. We all now benefit enormously from what they achieved; I feel sorry for countries like China which will probably industrialize without them.
Also, on the issue of purely US-centric news, perhaps these items need their own little section (or at least a distinguishing category/graphic). I'm sure this news is very important to some of you, but it's also pretty much irrelevant to everyone else.
Me. Send me your info, and I'll make sure it gets to the right people. Seriously.
Yeah, like I said above... I personally feel that the Union has outlived it's usefulness.. SBC pretty much gave them most of the major things they wanted. The two main sticking points are: 1: Medical Copays.. currently the Union guys don't have to pay any medical premiums, and a small copay for each visit. SBC will still pay their premiums, but raise the copays a bit.. but that's still way the hell better than the "Management" employees get. 2: Job Security.. SBC is offering any Union member a job in the same state that they currently work in if their job is "surplused". I think that 100% of people wish they had any job security, let alone that kind. If anybody cares to read SBC's side of things, read www.sbcupdate.com . It will tell SBC's side of things. Now I'm off to frickin' Detroit to run phone lines for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.. thanks Union.
I was just about to post the fact that I have no fucking clue what all those acronyms mean.
I will not bitch about slashdot's editorial policies.
I will not bitch about slashdot's editorial policies.
I will not bitch about slashdot's editorial policies.
I worked for 10 years for U S WEST (regional Bell Operating Company in the midwest/western US)
In 1997, the union went on strike for about 2 weeks, and those of us not union got to fill in for them.
In the first week, one section of the company (AIN Lab in Denver) had a 2-year backlog of orders cleared out, and 2 replacement workers were staying on top of the order flow. This lab was staffed by 4 Union folks.
Within the first three days, my center (Residential Repair Call Handling center in Des Moines) was closing more trouble tickets, with fewer repeat problems, and with shorter hold-times for callers. This center was staffed at approx 40% of the Union workers.
I have studied economics, history, and sociology. When Organized labor was getting started in the US, it was a powerful force for good.
In the telecom sector in the US, organized labor has created an adversarial relationship along an imaginary line ("labor" vs "management") which puts customer service about 4th in the priority list.
It has also created a situation where workers have no real incentive to do any better than half-assed work. There is no "carrot" because a worker who excels is not rewarded, but rather gets grief from her coworkers for making them look bad. There is no "stick" because it's virtually impossible to get fired.
The world at large may be worse off without organized labor.
The phone companies in the US have a reputation throughout the world for bumbling incompetence, and we have the Unions to thank for that.
--
...fewer failures. When the line workers go out on strike, nothing breaks. Studies show that almost all telco failures are a result of installations or configuration changes.
This is just great. I just ordered a service move from Oklahoma City to Austin. This means I'll probably have to wait until next month before my service is set up again. This happened to me once before. I moved to Arizona while US West was on strike, and had to go three weeks without a home phone.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
The CWA is also trying to organize IT workers. The Techs Unite mailing list is very busy. They also have regular meetings that local IT workers go to in various cities.
I'm quite happy with this happening. I think the most important thing is that it be recognized that IT work is skilled, professional work, that both the CWA and the companies understand this. Some unions have handled this well like SAG, the actors union - I would say Robert DeNiro is highly skilled, although in a different manner than myself. I would not mind CWA rules that I have to be paid overtime after 40 hours, or be paid to be oncall and so forth however. A union would raise wages (as unions always do), lower overwork (overtime would be paid), lower unemployment (less overworked people means more jobs) and be a very good thing.
Which sucks, because Pac Bell Park is easy to say and has a rhythm to it. SBC Park doesn't, and every nickname I come up with using SBC starts with Sucks, and it's really a nice ballpark.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Anyhow, we have our own fiber network, our own switchng equipment, and we are responsible for our own order processing, repairs, service changes, etc. Basically we rely on SBC for what is termed the "last mile", or the cable that leaves from either a COLO (colococation office) or CO (central office) and leads right up to the building being serviced. This also includes the pedestals and other line structures used to pass service along.
We rely on SBC to make repairs to aerial or buried drops and for basic installation. How it works is we send SBC an order saying "Hey, this person wants our service. Hook them up." SBC then gives us the line from their switch and ensures that the line leading from the pedestal or segmentation equipment is dropped off at the NID (Network Interface Device). We then complete the order by doing the necessary routing, NPAC (Number Portability), hooking up the inside wiring, and ensuring service is delivered properly. As you can imagine, while we don't overly rely on SBC's equipment we are very dependent on their service. This strike will make an already long installation process even longer and perhaps delay repairs to infrastructure. While this strike seems to only affect SBC and their customers on the surface, this could have potentially damaging effects on our service as well by delaying key steps in the installation and repair sectors.
SBC has always been a little underhanded when it has come to playing fair, ie giving our customers lines that they knew were of less than stellar quality, delaying the install process when they can get away with it, charging us for doing a "no trouble found" dispatch where the problem "mysteriously" diappears so as to cause an unnecessary dispatch chargeback to appear, etc. We try and get along, but it is not always that easy. We've had issues with their technicians disparaging our service as well, trying to get a "winback" so as to regain their previous customers' service. In fact, we keep a database of all the things that SBC has done to try and undermine our service so we can have an accurate record to present to the PSC (Public Service Commission). You'd be amazed at what SBC tries to do to steal back their customers. Thankfully we do provide cheaper service and better customer care IMHO.
While I understand why the CWA is striking I hope the issue is solved soon. Otherwise it is going to cause our little company a lot of headaches in the long run. While we may not always get along, we are really dependent on SBC to get service and maintanance schedules completed properly and on time.
"This food is problematic."
I've never heard of any unreasonable strikes... Have you been indoctrinated from birth or do you have any real reasons to dislike unions?
You have never heard of any unreasonable strikes? Are you insane? And you're the one accusing people of being "indoctrinated from birth". Come on now. Unions have been known to put companies out of business (thereby having all their members lose jobs).
Come on now...
European Union lover questioning American Union hater about being "indoctrinated".
Pot, kettle, black.
Casual Games/Downloads
Shut up and get back to work for $0.02/hr you fucking non-unionized peon! No washroom break for you!
Hey boss! Take this job and shove it. We're tired of working for you, so the best of us in the company are raising some money from friends and family and we're opening up our own business. Let's see you stay in business when all your best and brightest employees are no longer around. Our business will treat workers fairly, give them good wages, safe conditions, and reasonable hours. It's proven that a happy worker is more productive, so we're going to out-produce anything you can do.
Not only that, but we'll advertise our new business and expose the shameful practices of your company. How will you stay in business if you have no good employees, poor quality control, lots of accidents, and all your former customers no longer do business with you because they know friends and family who have been screwed over by you?
We believe in giving workers fair wages and that, by doing so, the best workers in the country will flock to us and we'll be able to choose from the smartest and most capable people there are. These people are so good they wouldn't even consider working for scum like you. Within 18 months, we'll have out-innovated, out-produced, and out-smarted your company. Our products will be much more innovative, better-designed, and of higher quality than anything you could hope to produce. Within two years, you will have to sell your car, your house, and your wife will need to cut off her hair and sell that to a wigmaker just to afford food.
Just you wait, former boss. You will see what an awesome force well-paid and respected workers can be.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
If your company does a trade show in a unionized hall you are not allowed to carry anything in and out, you have to wait 2 hours for a union guy to come off his break and carry it for you
We did a trade show were we needed to run a single cable between two booths. The two booths were along the same wall and were separated by about 8 feet. Well, some union nutfuck caught wind of this and since it was a union hall we had to do it there way. Turns out there way was a 500ft cable run and a $500 charge.
Awesome! "Union Yes" I say!
And people wonder why many detest unions so much.
Casual Games/Downloads
The nice thing about unions is that they mean job security, and protection from overzealous greedy companies. They give the workers a voice and strength against getting screwed by a few rich bastards.
The bad thing about unions is they mean you don't have to work hard to keep a job, even at a generous, well managed company. They give workers a lever to use against management to get what they want even if it means screwing a management who's actually doing a decent job.
Sounds like the same union huh?
Unions themselves aren't inherently evil, but they are easily abused these days. I'd rather have lazy stupid people wandering around happy they have a job than lazy stupid people screaming with picket signs and complaining to me that they have no job and they have the right to break into my house and steal my things because society sucks. I believe in that social safety net and all.
However, tighting up a few rules and introducing some healthy competition into unions would be a stellar idea. How about requiring that companies have more than one union for the same workers?! The union that performs better gets better bonuses from the company. How about restricting some of the practices with unions, like making strikes illegal for more important service companies like SBC, where service is crucial.
But of course, evil unions have lobbies, and would never allow that to happen.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
This article would be made more clear if I knew what, who or whom SBC and/or CWA were. Do they supply toiletries?
If so I can clearly see a public hygiene problem here, and you have my sympathy.
Okay, that was a minor troll, but throw us non-kerkins a bone, make the short informative enough to make the rest worth reading.
Martin Brooks / Slayer99 #linux / UIN 2178117
Almost all workers in the US have the right to quit their job if they don't like the conditions. Unions were formed by people saying "Unless you start collective barganing with this here union we formed, we all quit." You decided that you'd rather deal with the union than to find all new workers. All contracts you signed say you will continue to work with the union rather than replace all your workers at one time. In other words, you signed a contact. Capitalitic enough for you?
The definition of capitalism would more likely say that if workers aren't satisfied with their wages and think they're being shafted by management, they can all go and start up their own competing business and offer better service and pay their workers higher wages.
It also has a few things to say about:
Safety conditions - brought to you by unions
Hour limits and overtime pay - brought to you by unions
Minimum wage - brought to you by unions
loyal workers & customers - brought to you by happy workers that happen to belong to a union.
Which isn't to say that some unions can't be nuts, but in this case I think CWA has a few points. Like share the wealth we made for you with the people that made it happen. Still, SBC doesn't have to deal with the union if it doesn't want to. Just replace all those workers all at once.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
raider_red caught on guys, let's buck up and go back to work... eh, it was good while it lasted..
:)
PS. Yes, we are out to get you.
feh. stuff.
My company gets its T1 service from SBC. My ISP does to. I know someone who works for a Chicago company that has a DS3 from SBC with a few T1 lines from other providers--but most of those other providers actually use SBC circuits anyway.
This is news because if there are network problems that cannot get fixed in a timely basis, you could see major swaths of the US dropping offline.
I do not think this is at all likely, but it is a possibility. This is more than just local phone service and given that the ISP's and corporations using that SBC backbone are providing the content for many of the sites that Slashdotters surf to, this is newsworthy.
But, they should have explained the acronyms and why this was significant.
75 years ago people died, just to make a livable wage! Certainly the same holds true these days?
I tried to move my filing cabnet from 1st floor to the 4th floor. I was seen by a union guy and almost got a greivence files aganst me. That could get me fired. So what sence does that make?
I also worked at one place that someone was stealing memory out of computer on a shop floor. They finally caught the guy, union, and the union threatened the company if they fired this idiot they would raise hell. So he didnt get fired. gotta protect the income of unskilled labor.
So why, then, has every SBC rep I've spoken with for the last couple months tried to sell me DirecTV? That SBC owned the service was an assumption on my part, but now I'm really curious. Anyone know?
Bear in mind that before unions, the 8-hour workday and the 5-day workweek were incredibly radical ideas that led employers to violence. Of course, in IT the 8-hour workday is still largely illusory, but then again, IT isn't terribly well-unionized, is it?
Crap, now where will I get my caffiene? Guess I half to go all the way to starbucks...
Patent: from Latin patere, to be open
It's easy to resent union workers for having pay, benefits, and job security that other workers lack. But the solution to that is to strengthen unions, rather than weaken them. Higher union density means better wages, benefits, and conditions for everyone.
Compare the situation of workers in the U.S. to other industrialization nations with higher unionization rates, and you'll discover American workers are being seriously screwed.
Also consider the history of the United States. Appreciate the 40 hour work week? Think having a strong middle class has been good for the country? Thank the labor movement. It's not a coincidence that it's begun to disappear (real wages falling since the 1970s) at the same time as the unions have been weakened.
Check out the AFL-CIO's All About Unions page, and think seriously about the consequences of scabbing.
Red All Over: Rambling Missives from an Aspiring Revolutionary
For example Arizona is Qwest. Well you don't get any more south (it borders Mexico for those that don't know), and nost much more west, than Arizona.
If we want to build a great country with a great standard of living, like Denmark, where everyone has 5 or more weeks of vacation, and having surgery won't bankrupt, and where you don't have to worry about homelessness, then ALL workers should strike periodically, i.e., SHUT DOWN the country. Show the neoliberal puppetmasters who is really the boss.
Learn more about what I am talking about here:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/r
more here:
http://www.geocities.com/cryofan/socialdem
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Which is all great, except who are SBA, CWA or Verizon? If they go on strike, what changes?
.org" site?
I seriously have no idea. Whenever I see Verizon, I think it's Verisign.
All the Slashdot blurb tells me is that SBC provide a service and repair existing services. That service could be mobile dog-washing for all the explaining done.
The first article tells me that CWA is Communications Workers of America. The second suggests that a telephone company is involved, and the third is fluff.
So people might experience delays with getting a new phone service or repairing an existing one, but can still make calls, and this is frontdoor news on an "international
I've had news submissions about students discovering critical flaws in wireless technology get rejected while something like this gets through? Hmm.
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
How few people here know who SBC is, I mean they are only in 13 states but still, SBC is one of the larget telecom companies in the US.
There are some particularly interesting things to note about this strike (for the record I am one of the replacement workers set to go in to work when they go on strike, alongside alot of out of town SBC managers and some retired SBC workers).
First off, the original strike deadline was set for the 7th of May, for some stupid reason the CWA decided to work through the deadline even though next to NO concessions were made by SBC, thus weakening their position.
Second, as if it didnt seem dumb before, this isnt the first time the CWA tried this tactic, they previously did the same thing at Verizon last year, not suprisingly they ended up getting squeezed on most issues, including a ~$1 billion healthcare package.
Third, the strike is, if you can believe this, a 4 day only strike....to quote a CWA spokesperson "this will show SBC how seriously we are taking this issue."....right....so, to show how serious you are, you worked through one deadline....set another, and then openly told them it would last no more than 4 days....thats serious folks.
Also for what its worth the same spokesperson said the move was only 4 days because they dont want to inflict permanent damage to SBC's business, however at the same time they are mobilizing a carrier switch campaign aimed at persuading SBC's business customers to switch over to AT&T (who does business in 11 of SBC's 13 operating states).
Personally I think the CWA workers have a D@MN good job, and even with the increases laid out in this plan have some excellent healthcare plans....however I feel bad for them because it appears their negotiators have their heads firmly implanted in their rectums.
I honestly wish I could get by without taking this job because while I disagree with the unions I dont neccisarily like the idea of being a replacement worker, but apparently unbeknownst to the CWA workers, the economy sucks and IT jobs are about as scarce as it gets. But either way, as long as I make enough money to keep a roof over my head and they get enough of their demands met, I guess its a win/win.
"The saddest words of mice and men, are not those which were, but should have been."
Almost all workers in the US have the right to quit their job if they don't like the conditions. Unions were formed by people saying "Unless you start collective barganing with this here union we formed, we all quit." You decided that you'd rather deal with the union than to find all new workers. All contracts you signed say you will continue to work with the union rather than replace all your workers at one time. In other words, you signed a contact. Capitalitic enough for you?
It goes beyond that though. It's unlawful to hire someone who does the work that a striking worker isn't willing to do. I agree that if there is a contract in place, then the terms of that contract must be followed as agreed upon by both parties. That's entirely capitalistic and common sense.
Implicit in capitalism is the right to choose with whom you want to do business. If a bunch of employees get together and form a union, the company can't say "we don't want to deal with a union, so we won't even consider a contract". They're *forced* to enter into a contract against their will. If they refuse to sign the contract in the first place, they face fines and jail time. How is that capitalistic?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
From what I understand, SBC doesn't actually stand for anything. Here is what I have from some informational reading (sorry, there doesn't seem to be a webpage that has it):
There you have it.
The SBC workers in the CWA who are threatening to strike are being rediculous if you ask me. Their big sticking point is that they do not feel that they should have to pay a copay on medical visits. These workers all get FREE healthcare (NOTHING is deducted from their checks) and are complaining because the company wants to raise their copay to $20 for the next 2 years, then 25 for 2 more, and then $30... But again.. they pay nothing but copays.
SBC non-union employees pay about $500 a month out of their checks and already have a $20 copay.
These guys have cushy jobs... What other job can you stretch 4 jobs out over the course of a day, sit in your truck and read the paper for 4 hoursm and then collect overtime to boot?
I'm not an SBC employee, but i know that as a VP @ a NYC brokerage firm, I pay $450 monthly for medical (that doesnt even include dental) and have a $20 copay.. And i actually have to work for a living.
These guys need to come back to reality and stay at work. If it were upto me I'd fire all of the ungrateful bastages, and give the jobs to those who are out of a job. People whine about the economy, but it cant be that bad if these guys are crying about a $5 raise in their copay
Just my $0.02
Speaking as a customer service worker at a CLEC phone company with a name that resolves in roman numerals, it'll also mean that CLEC orders in the SBC area--for new telephone lines, moves, or even migrations--and also phone repairs will also be delayed, since it's SBC's workers who actually do the switching and fixing.
Boy, I'm glad the CLEC is laying me off at the end of June, otherwise I might have to keep working there. I've had enough phone CS to last a lifetime.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Wal Mart is okay! They're so generous that they hand out info on how to get food-stamps along with their pay packets that are kept light in weight so that their workers can carry them more easily!
Drill baby drill - on Mars
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
You were merely stating the opposite of your true beliefs, which is irony. Sarcasm frequently uses irony, but is marked by the addition of intent, that is to wound or ridicule. Usually, sarcasm is directed at an individual while irony is more general.
Sorry, sorry. I'll shut up now. Misuse of irony and sarcasm is a pet peave.
BTW, thanks for sticking up for worker's rights. Class issues are still very real, despite people's attempts to belittle them. When was the last time you saw a rich man, black white or green, convicted on a murder charge?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Let's say unions didn't exist.
It would still be cheaper to manufacture overseas, because cost-of-living in the US is higher, so workers need to be paid more.
Unions didn't kill manufacturing, the change from skilled manufacturing to unskilled automated manufacturing did.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Hey.
For your first example - it's their JOB. Should have called them to do it, its what they get paid for. If the other employees start doing their jobs, then they might lose them. Its just that (unlike you), their contract with their employer states that the employer can't employ someone else to do their work.
The second example is an abusive union, and there's no defense to that, except to say: what about companies that fire employees who bring grievances against management? The problem goes both ways.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
...The union went to management and strong-armed them into restoring a lot of jobs in income-producing areas, including mine... ...Good thing I did, too. Within six months of my returning to my old job, the new shop circulated a petition amoung the workers to get rid of the union. As soon as the union was gone, they moved all the first-tier tech support positions to India.
Lesson learned. Unions mean job security. No unions mean you take your chances.
So, how did you learn that lession when the other company with the union had every worker laid off? How again is the lesson that a union means job security?
All I learned is that your current company can handle a few more workers than the other company. It's nice they argued for you there but obviously at the other place the same argument did not fare so well - and in fact the presence of the union may well have led to the vaporization of the whole department, rather than a targeted layoff! If I were you I'd be looking for something else, it seems like your job is living on borrowed time.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Perhaps they'll realize how little they need middle managers!
Sadly that thought never seems to occur to them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well /. assumes that if it's users don't know something they could google for it. Hell, in 1/2 the time it took you to write your rant you could have answered your own questions.
As long as they kept paying him, then they were in fact accepting the modification he made of said arrangemnet to only provide service with no quality.
There is the policy a company states they wish to follow, and there is the policy a companies staff actually implements - these are usually different. A persons job is what they can do and convince the company to pay them for. It's up to the company to hire people that will try to do things beneficial for the company instead of draining from the company. Companies also have the choice to spend less attention to good hiring and more attention to monitoring for enforcement of a centralized policy - but it's more cost effective to find good people that require less monitoring.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Labor union officials enjoy many extraordinary powers and immunities that were created by legislatures and the courts. Union officials claim to rely on the support of rank-and-file workers. Yet, they clamor in the political arena to secure and expand their government-granted powers, including the powers to shake down workers for financial support and even to wage campaigns of violent retaliation against non-union employees.
The following list of special privileges reveals the extent to which union bosses have rigged our nation's labor laws in their favor.
Privilege #1: Exemption from prosecution for union violence.
The most egregious example of organized labor's special privileges and immunities is the 1973 United States v. Enmons decision. In it, the United States Supreme Court held that union violence is exempted from the Hobbs Act, which makes it a federal crime to obstruct interstate commerce by robbery or extortion. As a result, thousands of incidents of violent assaults (directed mostly against workers) by union militants have gone unpunished. Meanwhile, many states also restrict the authority of law enforcement to enforce laws during strikes.
Privilege #2: Exemption from anti-monopoly laws.
The Clayton Act of 1914 exempts unions from anti-monopoly laws, enabling union officials to forcibly drive out independent or alternative employee bargaining groups.
Privilege #3: Power to force employees to accept unwanted union representation.
Monopoly bargaining, or "exclusive representation," which is embedded in most of the country's labor relations statutes, enables union officials to act as the exclusive bargaining agents of all employees at a unionized workplace, thereby depriving employees of the right to make their own employment contracts. For example, the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) of 1935, the Federal Labor Relations Act (FLRA) of 1978, and the Railway Labor Act (RLA) of 1926 prohibit employees from negotiating their own contracts with their employers or choosing their own workplace representatives.
Privilege #4: Power to collect forced union dues.
Unlike other private organizations, unions can compel individuals to support them financially. In 28 states under the NLRA (those that have not passed Right to Work laws), all states under the RLA, on "exclusive federal enclaves," and in many states under public sector labor relations acts, employees may be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, even if they reject union affiliation.
Privilege #5: Unlimited, undisclosed electioneering.
The Federal Election Campaign Act exempts unions from its limits on campaign contributions and expenditures, as well as some of its reporting requirements. Union bigwigs can spend unlimited amounts on communications to members and their families in support of, or opposition to, candidates for federal office, and they need not report these expenditures if they successfully claim that union publications are primarily devoted to other subjects. For years, the politically active National Education Association (NEA) teacher union has gotten away with claiming zero political expenditures on its IRS tax forms!
Privilege #6: Ability to strong-arm employers into negotiations.
Unlike all other parties in the economic marketplace, union officials can compel employers to bargain with them. The NLRA, FLRA, and RLA make it illegal for employers to resist a union's collective bargaining efforts and difficult for them to counter aggressive and deceptive campaigns waged by union organizers.
Privilege #7: Right to trespass on an employer's private property.
The Norris-LaGuardia Act of 1932 (and state anti-injunction acts) give union activists immunity from injunctions against trespass on an employer's property.
Privilege #8: Ability of strikers to keep jobs despite refusing to work.
Unlike other employees, unionized employees in the private sector have the right to strike; that is, to refuse to work while keeping their job. In some
So why, then, has every SBC rep I've spoken with for the last couple months tried to sell me DirecTV?
/ 04_21 /b3884059.htm
c tv
This article will explain it:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content
For more information (and where I found this link), try this Google search:
http://news.google.com/news?q=sbc%20dire
FYI: Rupert Murdoch (Fox, News Corp.) owns DirecTV.
You're right. Social movements (40 hour week and minimum wage) stop at state borders and correlation = causation. What do you suppose would happen if your state (and I'm curious which one it is) mandated 80 hour weeks and made its minimun wage $1.25 / hour? Do you think it'd be more or less difficult to attract a workforce?
Also, I am aware that minimum wage is federally mandated - I'm using that example to make a point. If that doesn't do it for you, ask yourself why minimum wage is federally mandated.
Battling Beasts
Amen.
I lose my SBC DS1 line every time it rains. They fumble and bumble, I lose a day's work, and my CEO gets grumpy. Eventually, the water evaporates and all of a sudden, it's "No trouble found". I don't see how a strike would change anything.
Let's say unions didn't exist.
It would still be cheaper to manufacture overseas, because cost-of-living in the US is higher, so workers need to be paid more.
Unions create difficulties for companies that go way beyond wages. Those difficulties translate into real costs for the company.
Unions didn't kill manufacturing, the change from skilled manufacturing to unskilled automated manufacturing did.
And why would companies pay so much for automated manufacturing? Because machines don't strike, machines don't steal from you, and a machine that doesn't do it's job can be replaced.
I would except you don't have an email address listed. Drop it to fiveonethree@NOSPAMNO.yahoo.com and we'll talk.
Companies create real difficulties for employees that go far beyond wages. These difficulties translate into real costs for the employee. Pardon me for caring more about the employee.
Actually, companies use automated manufacturing because of little things like repeatability, cost, speed, and tolerance. A product produced by a highly automated process is nearly always of a higher quality than a hand-assembled product, when produced in the same volume. If the employees hadn't been unionized, the company would have gone to an automated process anyway, because humans can't do what automated manufacturing can.
This is why the plants built overseas still use automated techniques - AM is simply BETTER. If it was solely cost of labor that drove AM, why would they use it overseas, where labor is cheap?
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
I would say that unions are almost entirely not the reason for forcing manufacturing overseas, but they make for a convenient scapegoat. At worst, they might have accelerated the process. Abusive unions bear more than their fair share of responsibility for this, much as abusive employers bear most of the responsibility for the formation of unions in the first place.
Similarly, offshoring/outsourcing isn't responsible for most of the job loss in the US, but it makes a nice scapegoat.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
SBC is no longer Southwestern Bell Company...they changed to Southwestern Bell Communications but are now simply "SBC".
Just as Kentucky Fried Chicken is simply now "KFC".
They advertised this heavily here.
Companies create real difficulties for employees that go far beyond wages. These difficulties translate into real costs for the employee.
If that were true, the employee would leave for a less difficult life. If they stay, it must mean the alternatives are worse.
Pardon me for caring more about the employee.
And how many jobs have you created?
Actually, companies use automated manufacturing because of little things like repeatability, cost, speed, and tolerance. A product produced by a highly automated process is nearly always of a higher quality than a hand-assembled product, when produced in the same volume. If the employees hadn't been unionized, the company would have gone to an automated process anyway, because humans can't do what automated manufacturing can.
This is why the plants built overseas still use automated techniques - AM is simply BETTER. If it was solely cost of labor that drove AM, why would they use it overseas, where labor is cheap?
Many overseas companies do use automation, but it is very primitive compared to what is available here. More sophisticated machines are too expensive -- unless the workers threaten "union" and "strike".
That's not to say that the virtues you cited aren't important, they are, but you have to look at the whole picture. Automation DOES look much more desirable when workers are union.
1. they also make a crap ton of money, don't have to work regular workers hours and get to visit the capitol for free.
2. Union members have to agree to the terms submit by the "boss", they can't back out if they disagree. Its like they just say they represent you, take your money, then do what they want most of the time.
I have family members that are long term members, they feel powerless here. There is no contract resolution and still a strike. A strike with a preset end day and no goals to achieve.
Jeoin
The relevant legislation is the Wagner Act; a summary: can be found at this site (Google cache).
Basically - they *have* to negotiate with the union. The union has to negotiate back. If agreement can't be reached, the company doesn't have to deal with the union, but the company cannot refuse to negotiate with the legally selected representative of their employees, embodied as a union.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Today was my last day as a 411 operator with SBC. Starting a new job next week. Yay, me.
Anyways, SBC is fucking cheap. They make mad profit every year, but they can't afford a single water cooler for our little 90 person office on the shoreline in Connecticut. They want you plugged in and taking calls on time, but the clocks go unfixed. It feels like a fucking casino. A simple bit of routine maintenance. I'm surprised the mens bathroom light got fixed today.
Good employees that make a company as profitable as it is, should not be treated like disposable trash.
BytesTemplar.com
Matter of degree, true. :)
/. tends to get my union-supporting side fired up, you know? :)
I think of almost entirely not as 10%, whereas partly implies 20-40% to me, so its a big enough difference for me to argue about.
Also, the amount of anti-union sentiment I see on
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
What a one sided response. If you actually researched the issues at hand you would realize it's primarily about health benefits. While I do think unionization has created over-paid employees in some fields, you shouldn't assume.
Hmm.
I don't know how many jobs I've created. I know that in the year I've been in full-time employment, the projects I've worked on have been quite successful, leading to my company doing very, very well. I couldn't quantify it, but I would bet that the work I've done has led to job creation. I work for a large corporation, which makes it more difficult to give you a number; I hope you understand.
That said, I've worked in a union and now outside of one, I've run a not-for-profit with 6 employees and ~120 volunteers, and I've worked as employee #2 for a small (and successful, I will note) engineering business. All of which occurred while I was in school. So I think I can safely state that I have some experience in labor and its management.
Nice try on the "many overseas companies use automation". The manufacturing industries hardest hit in the US (automotive, electronics, semi-conductors, steel) are generally far more advanced in technique overseas.
Of course automation looks more desirable when employees are union - anything that lets you reduce the number of people you employ is going to look more attractive when the employees are more costly. However, there are costly non-union employees too - the difference there is that they probably don't have contracts guaranteeing certain levels of employment. They'll just get fired.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
My DSL went down on Monday, I called them the same day, and they said "We'll call you between 4 and 8PM tomorrow"
No call. Great service guys. Can't wait to see what it'll be like without 80% of their workforce.
- Sherman
On the other hand, in recent years the unions have done more harm than good to workers and consumers. Basically, they've themselves become what they once opposed: greedy, spineless racketeers.
But back to the first hand, we should never be jealous or upset when workers demand better for themselves. We should encourage the strikers, even if their actions inconvenience us. Anyone's victory against corporate greed is a victory for all of us!
SBC is a major, major player in telecommunications. As it holds basically the entire west coast and the southwest, it has a very large portion of the US, which is a very large contributor to the internet community, to put it mildly. Clearly if the USA dropped off the face of the earth the internet would go on without us, but seriously folks, that geographical area is significantly important (or is that the other way around) to the internet in general.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The article stated that the strike pertained to new service and repairs, not to ongoing service. I was questioning its relevance to the wider Slashdot group, and whether in the international name space more effort could be made to explain to users exactly what those intials meant without leaning on Google.
Yes, I'm very aware that Slashdot does whatever it wants, and the core crowd of Linux users are fond of telling people to RTFM instead of providing direct and personable help, but still -- doesn't hurt to put your POV out there.
The sig is just a random poll that I put in my sig every few days -- I'm not sure how that's supposed to have anything to do with the strike, this site, or my comment.
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
...but people creating real IP don't get outsourced.
THink harder!
Blar.
Your decision-making skills should only be used if that is part of your job description. What if the guys doing trash pickup decided that the only wanted to hit half the houses?
Blar.
(Fuck you, by the way - you're a jackass - I am not employed by a union, but I respect the idea).
You obviously have an abusive union. If the union's contract requires that they move everything, it is their responsibility to move it within a reasonable time frame. Most unions don't give a shit about you moving a monitor; they care about things like heavy equipment (server racks and furniture and the like). If they're willing to file a grievance over your moving a monitor, fuck them, you're right. But if you start moving server racks, I have no problem with them filing a grievance against you, just as I expect you'd be a little bit pissed if your boss replaced you with less than minimum-wage Indian coders.
But calling them union thugs betrays a certain mindset. Most union members don't move shit. They do skilled work. They just happen to realize what most software/IT workers refuse to - they will have better conditions in groups than alone.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Thanks for the clarification.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I'm non-union. If one of the other EEs started doing my work, you bet your ass I'd bitch to management. Wouldn't you?
It's the same thing. Just the fact that a union's involved gets people all stupid about it.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
SNET (Southern New England Telephone) is owned and operated by SBC. I saw SNET trucks all over Connecticut. Now I'm back in California and see SBC trucks everywhere. They cover a fair portion of the USA.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
Management knows this, and accepts less throughput for better quality. I also get the more entertaining (and challenging) problems assigned to me because I can figure them out, whereas Mr. Speedy gets frustrated when he can't fix it in 5 minutes.
BTW - I work in a union shop, and although it isn't great, it does protect you when some manager decides to make your life a living hell. Also rewards you when you stay put for a few years, as I'm starting to find out. OTOH, they also protect some drooling morons who shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
Clinton was a neoliberal whose neoliberal policies, along with Bush, another even more conservative neoliberal, have laid waste to America's job market. I say try them both for treason in a recognized court of law.
In fact, the democratic party of America is in NO WAY a leftist organization. THere is no Left in America.
You want leftism? Go to Europe, South America.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
So you admit the presence of a union in one case was of no use whatsoever! That's what I was saying. Sure, it got you your job back at one place - for a while. But look what it did for the OTHER guys who were in a union and probably thought they were as safe as you imagine yourself to be!
Do you really think it would have stopped the outsourcing to have that union still around? The only power a union has is that everyone can stop working at once - which is what the company did by outsourcing them all.
If you are relying on a union to keep you employed instead of your own devices - well, good luck.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
... it was just after I signed on with two friends to be the 3rd tenant in a Brooklyn apartment.
... soon as our strike is over, and as soon as the resulting backlog is gone through, and soon as we damn well please, haveanicedaythiscallmaybemonitoredforqualityassura nce) which meant I couldn't telecommute from the apartment even by dialup. Verizon controlled the lines, too, making it impossible to get service for a while even if you wanted another company to provide its rendition of the fabled dialtone. DSL? Ha, just you wait. Cable? Sorry, must have local phone service, we were told.
;)) And they kept charging me, months after my account was alleged to have been closed.
Two months without phone service (gosh, sorry, we're really trying to install it
So, Verizon's strike cost me about two months of rent -- that is, time during which I could either a) pay daily for internet cafes and such or b) stay in MD and work from my connection there while paying the sunk rent in Brooklyn, which is what I did except for a few weekends. Thanks, Verizon, thanks a bunch. Brotherhood of man, greatly pleased by your extended middle digit, progress marches ever on. Oh, and the (crap, fraudulently false adversing) Merlin wireless service from Verizon sucked as bad as the worst reports about it would suggest. I did get that, because I could order it from MD and have it work (well, not "work" exactly, but y'know, try to work) in NYC (unlike local physical phone hookup, which pretty much has to be done on-premises
Not that I'm bitter.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
One of my reasons for dropping a land line and going with a cell phone only was SBC. Dealing with them was just a pain in the @$$. Tha last straw was when I tried to transfer a phone line to a another person (I moved out and tried to leave phone number to roommate). Three months of calling and each time getting an answer that they will take care of it. We just gave up and I left the phone under my name and they paid it.
I have had less problems with my cell phone in four years than I did with SBC in one.
The backlog for union movers is 2 months! so i am suppose to wait for all my belongings to be moved just cause its his job? nope. I do alot of stuff thats not my job, because if i can do it better, thats a good thing. It doesnt take skilled labor to move a box. but unions make it a over paid postion so that unskilled labor gets paid skilled labor rates. Sorry, not gonna do that.
Methinks he is a social conservative without any ideological stands on economics other than following the money!
I don't know. I see unions as a capitalist position - they're simply the acknowledgement that bargaining position is improved by controlling more labor capital.
I don't think pure capitalism is a good idea; in the past, the pendulum swung too far towards the side of labor, resulting in the historical abuses by unions and the resulting economic downturns in the 70s. But now its swinging too far back towards the side of capital, resulting in a return to conditions antithetical to the best interests of workers. The best economic growth is achieved not by bowing down to one side or the other, but by competition between the two.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Complain to your boss, let him deal with the union, and do something useful that you're actually paid to do.
My boss would kick my ass if he caught me moving a server rack - I get paid a lot better than those union guys do, and it ain't to move equipment.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
I have known a number of people working for Ameritech, now SBC. They're mostly engineering types, who spend a great deal of time dealing with similar issues. SBC has steadily decreased its engineering staff and increased its sales staff over the last 12 years. The CWA staff has remained somewhat level. Yet, there has been more buildout of systems, and a continuing advancement in plant capability throughout, resulting in tougher jobs for everyone. Now the engineers are facing a probably sales quota, too. Pretty stupid, huh? There aren't enough engineers to work all the jobs assigned now. I asked for an estimate on a job last summer and it took nearly two months to get it. The engineers were backlogged that long. I think SBC is run by some real idiots who've forgotten what customers need, especially those of us dealing with large projects.
You are missing my point. What would the presence of the union have done to laying off the whole group? Nothing at all, since (as I said in my last message) the power of the union is organized bargaining and the strike. In the case of outsourcing a whole group, there is no union power. And, perhaps they considreed this action because the workers had unionized.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Thats the typical college definition. But not the way it works in the real world.
How many unions have you belonged to/dealt with?
Abusive unions (Teamsters, UAW are way up there on this list) are awful. Good unions (IATSE, IBEW from what I've seen of them) get no press, but work quite well.
I tend to doubt most people's real world experience dealing with unions, because most people get their opinions on unions from the strikes they read about in the papers.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
One should never doubt real world experiences.
But yes, there are unions that are less harmful. I have a few friends that are are with Teamsters. All they ever do is collect union dues...
Unions sound good on paper, but in the real world, they are a hindrance to competition. You may say they are a necessary evil. I disagree.
Watch this SBC strike carefully...
I don't doubt real world experiences, but I have reason to doubt most people's real world experience. Its one thing to dislike unions abstractly (which is most people), as opposed to someone who's been screwed over by an abusive union (not most people).
Teamsters is about as bad as it gets; I've never seen an IATSE member who doesn't work his ass off for his money (possibly because I worked for a small local) and most of the UAW members I've met do honest work for honest pay. Shop stewards do not count.
I say that I wish they weren't a necessary evil, but they are. The real world is why they're necessary. Capitalism is as flawed in a pure form as socialism, and unions help check those flaws.
I don't really have to watch the strike; SBC workers in Illinois are covered by IBEW, not CWA. In addition, I can't say I think the CWA workers are in the wrong on this; SBC was trying to give them a pay freeze with a cash bonus (as opposed to a base increase with no bonus) and raise their health care, which corresponds to a roughly 3-4% pay cut for most of those guys. You'd be pissed if your employer was profitable and still trying to cut your paycheck too.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Ok, you sould like a college student. Do you mind if I ask where you go?
You can ask, and I'll tell you that I'm not a student, that I have a responsible job, and that I studied engineering and not any bullshit polisci curriculum.
But that was cute, really.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
You sound like a Liberal Arts student...
It's too often that people let school interfere with their education.
Funny, I'm not. In fact, I work in the auto industry now, so I get to deal with unions (and not exactly a great one) in my day-to-day job.
I studied electrical engineering at a fairly decent school for it. My liberal arts education is mostly self-directed, minus the required 16 credits of humanities courses. Most of which, in my case, were humanities, and not social science.
So if you're done with the "You sound like someone too young to know what they're talking about" ad hominems, would you like to cough up your qualifications?
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Funny, I didn't mean it as an "ad hominem" but I can see how some would take it that way. I'm sorry.
I wasn't trying to attack your qualifications either. It's just that liberal arts students are are the type of people that believe Union (among other things) have any use today. I grantee you that the Business colleges don't teach this.
But because you asked, I studied CIS at Cal Poly Pomona, here in CA. I'm a NASA certified UNIX system administrator. I work at JPL here in Pasadena.
Anytime someone says "You sound like a student" it comes off condescending. I do honestly believe that unions are still useful, exactly as I still think capitalism is still useful. I also think that we're going to hit the end of the regime of utility for both of them in the next 100-150 years; specifically, if/when we develop techniques to make copying physical things as easy as copying digital things are today, we're going to have a fundamental societal change. I think we're already in the midst of one with regards to copyright and IP and that laws are not going to be able to adjust, but that we'll require a fundamentally different mode of operation to succeed with these things in the face of universal copying and information distribution. So I hardly think I have views anywhere near those of your typical liberal arts kid. Most of them still think that IP refers to bodily functions.
As to JPL, nice. I have a good friend who does atmospheric Jupiter science at JPL. He loves it out there. I spent a summer doing EE work at NASA Kennedy (ironically, the summer before 107... I actually did a little bit of payload management work on 107. One of the worst days of my life, Feb 1.)
You were honest enough that I'll be more detailed; I studied electrical engineering at Michigan; I now work for a tier 1 automotive supplier, one of the 10 biggest. I don't divulge which one for a variety of reasons, sorry. But we're smaller than Bosch and Delphi, and bigger than IEE and Lear. That should give you enough of an idea.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)