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Kill Bill, IBM vs Microsoft
theodp writes "Though IBM did not invent Linux, does not distribute it and earns nary a penny on it, the computer giant is spending billions in a crusade to make Linux the world's most popular operating system. All told, more than 12,000 IBMers today devote at least part of their time to Linux. To hear IBMers tell it, all this effort is a matter of giving more choices to customers tired of the Microsoft monopoly. But according to Forbes, IBM has a broader agenda--undermining Bill Gates' company in the battle for a new $21 billion market for Web-linked software."
one spot likens Linux to an omniscient child prodigy who resembles Eminem.
....and Twins.....
Maybe that's what Linux needs to cross over as a mainstream desktop OS? Celebrity endorsements!
Imagine ads featuring Colin Farrell beating up his Windows PC and putting out cigarettes on the keyboard! A Dawson's Creek ripoff where Katie Holmes's "private, amateur photography" gets lifted off her computer through because she happened to be running an unpatched IIS, part of the default Windows 2000 installation.
Or, best of all, Snoop Dogg chillin' with a bunch of penguins in his own language resource center, showing them all kinds of shizzle on his Thinkpad laptop running KDE.
If IBM sells Linux as well as they have OS/2 and VisualAge products, I don't see how Microsoft can lose. IBM has a bad track record of poor marketing strategy. Hopefully they'll finally get it right this time...
A love beyond compare...
Best quote from the article... "While IBM's products run on Windows, it wants its customers to see how nicely they would run on Linux as well, using the free operating system as a lure. "[It's] Like getting free bread in a restaurant," says Irving Wladawsky-Berger, vice president of technology and strategy at IBM.."
Hmmm.
All in favor of overturning evil software monopoly and rooting for evil hardware and software monopoly say "Yes!"
They don't make money off of selling linux but they do make money off of linux. Just look at thier linux offerings
does this mean that ibm considers microsoft to be winning the battle for web based software?
did you forget to take your meds?
"IBM has a broader agenda--undermining Bill Gates' company in the battle for a new $21 billion market for Web-linked software."
What? You say IBM has an agenda? They don't support Linux just to spread peace and love and free software? Quick, stop the presses!!!
Anything that can undermine Microsoft's ability to come up with vendor-lockin monopolistic "standards" is a good thing in my book. If a user wants to run a machine that lets her do anything and everything that the hardware is capable, without DRM, without Activation, without upgrade fees, without limiting her to ancient versions, then it should be her prerogative.
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With the announcement of IBM's new per user subscription model web applications (last week, was it?), I can see how this is a certain possibility. What better way to promote platform independence than to market an alternate operating system AND show off your new web apps in use on it? Intelligent marketing for Big Blue.
They could do it a lot faster by making the pieces that regular people ( ie not slashdot users ) still miss when they look at the linux desktop.
Microsoft still gets most of its strength from vendor lock based on windows.
Give people an alternative desktop that asks no sacarfice on their part and you kill the giant.
IBM has the resources to do this.
Steve
What exactly do their Thinkpad configurations have to do with their support of Linux? Last I checked, Linux was originally developed for x86. . .
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
I hear once from a IBM guy that they did not like MS because when they were working on a clustering system, they had asked MS to add a feature to windows, MS said we would get back to you, and never did, IBM felt that MS just brushed them off, so they went with Linux. And thus creating bad blood.
2 of the computer industry giants are squaring off, I wonder who will win if they get in to a no hold back fight, could be fun to watch.
Nah. Paris Hilton going "so I was using windows, and then it was, like, bleep bleep bleep, and I'm like, what? bummer."
Just animate tux!
He could be a national icon, like mickey mouse or toucan sam.
The question is, what kind of voice would he have? A swedish accent? bork bork bork?
no
The fifth ad campaign by Quentin Tarantino.
Starring David Carradine as Bill Gates
Michael Madsen as Steve Ballmer
Uma Thurman as The Bride (Tove Torvalds, avenging her dead husband Linus, her reign of bloody revenge sponsored by IBM)
and Chiaki Kuriyama as Gogo NT, the prototype Microsoft Killing App. (because really, when you're dealing with this stuff, you need a killer android, preferably Japanese in a schoolgirl outfit, for the sheer surrealism factor.)
Brazil has decided you're cute.
Sounds like IBM's ROI could be higher if their marketing were smarter. Then again, does it matter to OS if HP gets more Linux business than IBM does?
Wow! I hadn't connected Paris Hilton and Ellen Feiss, but now that you mention it...
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Remember, IBM is prone to the same sorts of behaviors as Microsoft.
They are not doing this out of kindness, and if IBM can take advantage of the situation down the road, they will.
Just be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"Looked dead, didn't I? But I wasn't. But it wasn't from lack of trying, I can tell you that. Actually, Bill's last OS put me in a coma - A coma I was to lie in for four years. When I woke up, I went on what the movie advertisements refer to as a 'roaring rampage of revenge.' I roared. And I rampaged. And I got bloody satisfaction. I've squashed a hell of a lot of competitors to get to this point, but I have only one more. The last one. The one I'm driving to right now. The only one left. And when I arrive at my destination, I am gonna kill Bill."
(Apologies to Tarantino)
Happy people make bad consumers.
Maybe, perhaps, they dont want to spend ridiculous amounts of money engineering and supporting a product that no one wants? The x86 thinkpads run *both* Linux and Windows just fine.
-fren
"Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"
Linux is perfect for a service-based company like IBM:
+ Even if it gets 99% marketshare: no anti-monopoly lawsuits.
+ Total control: build in whatever feature you need for your business.
+ Cheap: concentrate on what YOU need, let somebody else write a driver for that USB toothbrush.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
If and until IBM adopts Linux across the board themselves, it appears that they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. This came up before, and a number of IBMers said that it was impossible to get off of Microsoft entirely, mostly due to Windows specific apps (such as MS Project)--that may be so, but then how do you reasonably expect the rest of the world to adopt Linux?
And it's bullshit anyways--I understand IBM to have more than a few of their own coders. With enough will, you could rewrite the apps that you need, and then release them back to the OSS community, and the world will indeed thank you for making a migration from MS possible, for themselves as well.
Frankly, it'd be like going to Apple and finding that they all use Vaios. Hint: they don't. They do use MS applications, but they do so on Macs, like Office. And those that don't work on Macs--like the POS system for their retail stores--they port so that they do. What do you think would happen to sales of Macs if the you walked in and saw an IBM POS at the checkout counter at the Apple Store?
IBM has the opportunity and the resources to make their migration from Windows to OSS fodder for whitepapers and PR for decades to come. It's illustrative that they haven't yet, and I think it's a cautionary tale for any other company considering the same move.
--
$tar -xvf
Say it ain't so! You mean IBM isn't investing in Linux because they're a furry, friendly, happy company out to spread good will to world+dog?
I thought IBM was the little guy standing up to the evil, horrible Microsoft empire, fighting bravely for freedom, justice, apple pie, and all that's good in the world. Guess I should read a little less Slashdot, whose parent company is VA Systems, which has a vested interest in the promotion of Linux.
IBM is trying to get back in the game in a big way.
Federal: for years Sun, SGI, MS and select other companies (including IBM) have had a hold on the federal sector. IBM wants a much bigger piece of that pie as they see $$$$ there. They see their WebSphere and DB2 pillars as major ROI in this sector to the point that they are practically giving the HW away for free if you go the WAS/DB2
Commericial/Corp: MS on the desktop and probably a heterogeous backend network. Does IBM think they can surplant MS on the corporate desktop? Not if they continue to use Lotus notes, et. al. IMHO. MS has them beat there, but could there be a major rework or even junking of those tools with existing OSS projects? I don't know the answer here, but by at least getting Linux in the backend, they protect themselves against a full corporate MS monopoly.
Plus there has always been an uneasy interaction between some of the IBM products and the MS OS. I remember that patching Windows 2000 with a hotfix actually did something to the Windows kernel that prevented IHS (IBM's repackaging of apache) server from running smoothly. IBM would them have to patch IHS to get it working again. I suspect that they didn't really care for those types of tug-a-wars, intentional or not.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
This seems like it would be nice fodder for some parady site to pick up. But somehow IBM isn't as sexy as the other person who went out to 'killbill' But it is ironic that my thinkpad that I commonly use when reading and surfing from bed is commonly called 'my girlfiend' and carries the hostname 'bitch'.
No, really. Somebody find a link (bonus points if you can find an MP3 of the song).
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Thinkpads using Intel chips can run either Windows or Linux. Thinkpads using PowerPC chips would only be able to use Linux. It's not at all cost effective because demand is so low for Linux laptops. IBM hasn't completely dumped Windows for clients. If an IBM client demands Windows, they get it. IBM's much more pushy on the server side anyway.
IBM is committed to Linux because it makes good business sense to them. Offering products that will lose them money, like PowerPC laptops, is not a good business plan.
Developers: We can use your help.
That doesn't even make sense. Perhaps if you said "If IBM was really committed to PowerPC", your argument might have been interesting (but still unrealistic), but since x86 runs Linux wonderfully, I don't see what the lack of a PPC Thinkpad says about their commitment to Linux.
Though IBM did not invent Linux, does not distribute it and earns nary a penny on it
Has IBM ever made money on an operating system? I thought it was generally understood that IBM's business was selling "solutions"; the whole kit - hardware, services, support, customization, consulting.
Does OS400 run on an IBM AS390 mainframe? (serious question!)
An operating system is just part of the package for IBM - they obviously like Linux for small/medium business environments; people are probably less scared of Linux than AIX/OS400/etc, since there is probably more (and cheaper) non-IBM support for Linux based solutions. I guess in that sense, Linux is the Windows of the Unix world as far as support goes - everyone and their dog knows it.
Whether it's running Linux or not, you're still going to pay through the nose for an IBM kit. I honestly can't see how spending money/resources on Linux could be directly aimed at Microsoft any more than if they spent it on AIX. Perhaps Linux just gives them more bang for buck and makes business sense?
But according to Forbes, IBM has a broader agenda...
Yes. This is because IBM is what we call a "company" which exists to make money. Obviously there's a profit motive. This isn't some dark secret.
I'll say this about the article, though, it's pretty good for a Lyons piece. Looks like he finally was able to dig his head out of his ass.
Do you have ESP?
They sell a lot of servers running linux and they provide support for them. Those are 2 big areas they make money off linux.
They also have a powerful operating system to use with putting not nearly the effort needed for their own proprietary OS with that kind of power.
Evolution or ID?
IBM may be spending billions on Linux, but none of it is helping me. Every retailer who has looked at Linux at point of sale has run up against the same problem: lack of device drivers.
It really wouldn't make a dent in IBM's Linux budget to provide drivers for the most common peripherals attached to their registers. They need to do it now, or Embedded XP (which is not a bad product) is going to become entrenched, and so continue Microsoft's rise in the POS operating system space.
--
E_NOSIG
for big iron, and anything but x86.
Wince when did IBM make money [real money] selling software?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
...I am starting to get the idea that IBM just might have it in for Microsoft somehow. :) Bahahahaha!
Actually, none of this was new to me except that I didn't realized all of this was happening on such a grand scale! I've seen the TV ads but it just didn't register to me that it was costing them loads of money... (of course it does... I just don't think about it)
I agree that Microsoft should be taken down to the point that they actually have to work and toil to make a good product but it makes me wonder if IBM thinks it can control Linux. Could they be that stupid?
So IBM doesn't care what platform it runs its wares and services on. They make loads of money on their service contracts. I should hope that their business model doesn't change. If it doesn't then the Linux community has nothing to fear at all in my opinion.
Still, it would be interesting to know what portion of this effort stems from simple and pure hatred of Microsoft. Microsoft screwed IBM more than once in the past...
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
IBM are pro Linux whereas DELL and HP are selling Linux just to keep certain customers happy but are ultimately MS puppies.
"HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP for business" is all too often in adverts for their hardware and they couldn't be more in each other's pockets (HP and MS). But this is business and HP and DELL will do whatever it is that makes them the most money without putting themselves in 'jeopardy'.
Whereas IBM has a history of conflict with MS and are in no way trying to keep in the MS good books. Linux is the perfect vehicle for them to sell services and at the same time disrupt the MS server (and soon desktop) monopoly.
When a company advertises Linux on TV you know they are serious about it.
Good for them.
How about an PowerPC Apple powerook with Linux installed?
Here
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
"IBM's Linux pitch is either stupid or insincere. I think it's a little bit of both. It's not a sensible strategy for IBM in the long run," Zachmann says.
I wonder if we can see any biases in Canopus research?
Daniel Lyons of Frobes is up there with Laura Didio and Rob Enderle when it comes to having a clue about anything. These people are mostly pens for hire who will do or say anything to make a buck. I would highly encourage the Slashdot editors to put these people on ignore.
"IBM's Linux pitch is either stupid or insincere. I think it's a little bit of both. It's not a sensible strategy for IBM in the long run," Zachmann says."
I am not so sure about that. In 2001 Thomas Schenk's article compared Linux with AIX and found it wanting in terms of enterprise support. Clearly Linux has come a long way since then.
In 2003, Steve Mills, senior vice president of IBM's Software Group said Linux is the logical successor to AIX
For the customers, it sure would be nice not to have to pay AIX licensing fees.
Have you Meta Moderated t
Trading one monopoly for another makes no sense. Kind of like what we Americans do every four years or so with our Presidents...trading one bad thing for another.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
You know.. I just love what IBM is doing with Linux right now, but I wouldn't trust them to do the right thing any further than I could throw Bill Gates. I can see all of the Linux eggs going into one basket in the future, if the opensource community is not careful. Who knows, maybe it would be a good thing... Time will tell.
Linux is an "enabler" in PHB speak.
. as p
e.g.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1240127,00
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I found a small company that makes machines just like this! They have a web page here.
Guess what, non-linux users tend to use Flash and Real.
Guess who IBM want to use linux?
No matter how advanced the poduct is all of it eventually becomes a commodity, if the market is big enough. Once that happens, its very difficult for the providers of that product to control the industries it supplies. IBM is trying to jump-start the process(well I think it has already started, and IBM is just speeding it up) so it can capture more control in the direction of the computer/IT industry.
Of cource, thats all in the article... but I like the way I said it better. I've been reading about successfully manageing business in a changing market, by understanding the process in which a new technology becomes a commodity.
Business News and Resources: www.usasource.net
Web-linked software? Linked to what? Probably XAML and Avalon, thats what. IBM's got 50 customers like Munich? They would need 50,000 like that to make Redmond sweat. I know that Microsoft is hated here, but SOMEBODY is spending that money on them. (best quarter ever)
Sooner or later, some smart company is going to understand how Microsoft makes all that damn money, and stop telling themselves that they can win by just changing the rules.
The rules are:
Own the desktop
Provide the best-of-breed apps for that desktop
Own the developers who support that desktop
Own the contracts with those who supply those desktops
Leverage the desktop in every other market
Club competitors over the head with your 50+billion until they run to new markets and stop competing in yours.
Die Rich.
The new era of web-enabled applications is available now and to date is not powered by Microsoft. Using technologies like Laszlo Systems' LPS you can hook a web-deployed desktop app up to any number of XML based web services. This is the whole point of Longhorn and XAML. M$ was scared of Netscape because it made Windows irrelevant, then frightened by Java for the same reason, now they're trying to grab this new space before it matures. Thankfully they're doing too little too late and this genie is out of the bottle. SVG and XUL are cool but won't be good enough in time to stop the juggernaut. .Net and Longhorn become totally irrelevant.
Laszlo has it working now, and the apps run in 98% of the computers and devices hooked to the internet today. All IBM needs to do is add the final piece of the software stack together with DB/2, WebSphere, Linux and the client (Laszlo) then both
As seen on Wired: Get a free desktop PC
I was just about to post something regarding PowerPC, which, I think, IBM probably has in mind as a possible periferal benefit to pushing Linux forward to consumers.
To begin with, IBM has been focusing more on back-end servers and such, and not just providing the server and software, but the service. All those E-commerce commercials that you see, that the average person has no idea what's being sold? They're working. So IBM will sell you the server, they'll install the software, they'll customize it to your needs, help develop implimentation stragies for all this stuff, and provide continuous support, and if that's your business, Linux is a good tool to be using. It's free, or even if you buy a RedHat or SuSE distro, it's still relatively cheap, like TCO. Plus, all the customizing for the customer's specific needs goes a lot easier, because you can always rewrite source if you need to. Plus, IBM knows they can get along much more nicely with Novell than MS. The whole Novell/IBM allience is probably going to become a force in business in coming years (much more than now, I mean).
But besides that, if IBM can push Linux to the desktop, it opens up all sorts of business for IBM in the desktop processor manufacturing. I mean, as long as Windows is dominant, and Windows is only supporting x86, Intel and AMD are bound to dominate the processor market. But what if we find ourselves, in the next few years, in an increasingly MacOS/Linux environment? Don't think IBM isn't eyeing this market. It just won't be profitable (and therefore feasible) until there is a OS with large market-share that supports PowerPC.
Sure OS/2 has now lost. Simplest reason? It became isolated, just try to find a programmer for OS/2.
But their hardware continues to be very very good. Maybe not the best maybe not the fastest but simply good. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM is still true. Sure people do get fired for going over budget and buying IBM is a sure way of doing that but there are still enough places that can afford IBM's prices.
They also supply one thing nobody else does. A world wide total solution provider. If you have something to do with computers were ever you are IBM can help you.
And here this IBM ad ends.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
So where does LINUX fit in? A strong LINUX means plenty of top-quality apps and to offer customers. And not necessarily IBM apps either. IBM wants to be the integrator, the service company, because it can make a hell of a lot more on billion-dollar contracts with Fortune 500 companies than it can shaving margins on $500 boxes.
How are all the Linux boosters out there going to feel when you wind up trading one dictator for another?
People want to get rid of Microsoft, or at least greatly decrease their power, so much so (and to a large extent for good reason) that you can't see that IBM will take their place in a heartbeat if they can.
Many of you may be too young to remember the days when "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" because IBM ruled the computing world, flat out. Hell, *I* don't even remember those days personally, but I've heard the stories from people that were there, and IBM was in most ways just as bad as Microsoft. They used pressure sales tactics, made deals with companies that weren't in anyones' best interests but their own, and generally didn't play fair in many instances. They'll pull the same tactics out of their hate and monopolize the world just as surely as Microsoft has, first chance they get.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. IBM is setting themselves up to again prove that cliche true, and so many people don't have a problem with it because Microsoft is the defeated other party.
Be careful what you ask for folks... you just might get it.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
Easy moderators: The title is meant to be provocative, not an endorsement. Please read further.
It's good IBM is spending the resources to make Linux a more viable competitor to M$. Go IBM Go!
That said, what is it that keeps "Windows" synonymous with "computer" in the minds of the important people (CIOs, managers, grandmas)? Marketing. Remember, it's not Outlook, it's *Microsoft* Outlook. It's not Exchange2003, it's *Microsoft* Exchange2003. Microsoft made an important decision to have their products be inseperable from the Microsoft brand. It's all Microsoft, regardless of what you're using. Got a PC? Unless you built it yourself, you probably have (or had) a "Designed for Windows" sticker on there somewhere. And notice that on those dark cases that Dell, IBM, etc. are using now, what do you see? A big dark box with a colorful sticker. It's like the seal of quality, an assurance that you're getting something easy and familar (actual experience may differ from promise).
What we need, and what IBM's endorsement has not yet brought, is that same "promise of quality" that can be readily understood by anyone and *trusted* by everyone. Face it, with Windows, you know what you're getting, for good or ill. Linux just doesn't have that yet. Maybe it's the fragmentation of distros (Suse likes KDE, Redhat likes Gnome, etc.) As we can see over and over again, people don't buy the superior product, they buy the product they have been convinced into buying.
As an analogy, I offer this from my own life: I was in the store buying groceries. I needed peanut butter for sandwiches. I've been a lifelong JIF user, but JIF is kind of expensive. So I'm checking out the generics and store brands. All a bit cheaper, but not too much, and frankly, I don't know anything about them. They could taste better than JIF, but I don't want to be stuck with an open jar of crap peanut butter if it doesn't. The price isn't much different, so I suck it up and buy the JIF; I just don't want to run the risk of being disappointed. In my mind, JIF is the gold standard and until I am convinced otherwise *by external forces* I am probably not going to change. It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I am afraid of being disappointed and out some $ for a failed experiment.
Thus, I believe we need something, someone, to create that buzz that will usurp the idea that Windows is the good, safe choice. If I can get my grandma to ask for a pc and know that she wants Linux, and not Windows, then I think we will truly have succeeded.
You can use swfextract from swftools to extract the audio track from a flash file.
I prefer my evil to come from a company with a long history of evil. IBM got the history. Would you trust some tiny little upstart or a company that is now in its 3rd century of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Denial? MS is still learning Slight-anxiety, Bit-of-doubt and Feeble-counter-argument.
Also the penguin logo is so much cooler. You can make him cute and cuddly or a fearsome killer penguin.
MS got some four colored thingy and a butterfly. Tsk. Might as well use a fruit and really show what kinda customers you expect to attract.
Anyone else find it humorous that MS logo is a bug?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If you don't have Linux, you can always get RealAlternative which doesn't involve installing Real on you computer, but you can play Real files.
Read journal when you are not understand
The system is basically an accelerometer which monitor the movements of the laptop, and spins down the HD when there is a risk of impact. I would like to write a Linux driver for it, but I refuse to reverse engineer the windows driver. More info here
RFC1925
My current employer used to make loads off of AS/400 and System/36 work, but lately everyone has come to the realization that cheaper hardware and OS'es can do things better, faster and just as reliably. Four years ago the mantra was that "you know an AS/400 will never go down!" But after the latest rounds of PTFs, services packs and OS upgrades have wrecked havoc on working installations people have taken a second glance at that opinion.
The AS/400 is a great piece of hardware, no doubt. Their RAID controllers, massive RISCs and reliable hardware are fantastic for stable servers with 24/7 uptime. But OS/400 just can't take advantage of it. If you want to have hardware abstraction to the point that Sys/36 code from 1960 can still run you just aren't going to milk all the performance points you can out of the hardware.
One of the first things IBM did was get Linux running on an AS/400 (now eSeries). And I'm sure it wasn't a hobby project. They've got the hardcore hardware, now they need to get the industry behind a new common OS so they can sweep their OS/400 legacy under the rug. And good riddance, too.
This may seem a surprising thing to do, but in fact it makes good sense to commoditize the products that complement your own. For IBM, a hardware vendor, that's the OS. For Microsoft, an OS vendor, that's hardware.
For the last twenty years, Microsoft has been extraordinarily successful in commoditizing PC hardware. This has not been good news for IBM (though most of IBM's problems over that time have more to do with a misperception of where the market was going). Now IBM is turning the tables on Microsoft by commoditizing Linux, which if successful, will drive down the price of Windows and make it more affordable to buy computer hardware.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
... will that mean that we have no choice but to commit technological seppuku? -Alex
In fact if you think about it the most evil pairing of all time, wintel, occured when IBM outsourced something it could have done in house. If they are smart they learned from this :)
So I agree with you except the "want to be in the service industry" They ARE in the service industry. All their other stuff just helps them to be better in it.
They might have to learn another lesson first though. One they haven't learned from the wintel fiasco.
Cheap boxes don't make much profit but they get your name out there. There used to be a time your PC was called an IBM-compatible. Now I get people calling their PC a dell or windows pc.
It is a subtle piece of marketing but where do you think a small business that grew big enough with dells and windows is going to look first for their first big server?
Big companies already know where to find IBM but what about the small companies becoming the big ones?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The younger crowd doesn't realize what a predator IBM was in the late 80's. Anti-Unix zealots... because *everything* can run on one of their mainframes or their POS mini computers.
Good riddance to both of 'em.
Microsoft vs. Linux is just like Democrats vs. Republicans.
Linux is for those conservatives on the right who like things that never change and are extremely stable. Simple example are those that for whatever reason can't use anything but the Unix toolset even when they convert to Microsoft. They still need to use cygwin.
Microsoft is for those on the left that want to change things seeing a reason, and don't mind a little uglyness getting in the way of progress. Simple example...do we really need the things that Microsoft is throwing into Longhorn causing yet more instability and insecurity?
There are some on both sides who for whatever reason will NEVER switch...just like Democrats and Republicans. It's just like Coke and Pepsi too.
Computers and software are just tools to get jobs done. For many, nothing ever gets done because they keep concentrating on the tools.
Just my view.
Linux on the Apples is highly overrated. It's not NEARLY as good as Linux on x86 for a number of reasons -- more hardware choice on x86 being one of them. I have the misfortune of having an Airport Extreme Base Station -- there is NO WAY IN HELL I'll get it running with Linux. I can't even get my Win2000 box on it, and that's plugging directly into the ethernet port! So now running linux will cost me to get a new router, and I haven't even gotten my laptop running yet.
There are more people working on x86, so it's generally better supported. My PowerBook doesn't have any sleep mode under linux, the AirPort doesn't work, the backlit keyboard I paid extra for doesn't work, and many apps have to be recompiled under PPC with fixes made to the code beforehand.
All in all, if you buy a Mac, you WILL end up using it ONLY for OS X. The barriers to Linux on that platform are too great for 99/100 users. And you are one of them. Trust me.
If you want to run Linux, or are considering running linux, do NOT buy a Mac. I've been there, done that, and it's a royal pain in the ass for the quality of the results. Nice computers overall, but designed for OS X, and very unfriendly to anything but.
I've already decided; my next computer will be an IBM ThinkPad running Debian. Doc Searls has mentioned a rumor about IBM releasing Linux-only ThinkPads which have the G5 as their processor. If this arrives, I'm selling my PowerBook and all associated accessories PDQ.
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
Did you miss the little bit under the animations??
Both Flash and Real are available for Linux, if you don't want to use them, don't complain because the option is there
*Linux versions of these players are available. Get the free Linux plug-ins for Macromedia Flash and RealPlayer.
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
IBM trys to overthrow MS with a technically superior OS
I wonder what lessons both sides learned from the previous round, OS/2 vs Windows?
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
From what I've seen before, IBM has trouble making money off software. Microsoft lives by making money off software. IBM's core business is hardware and consulting services, so perhaps that's where the Linux mantra kicks in.
License "Statisfaction" by the Rolling Stones an parody a Microsoft Windows commercial.
;)
Show various users with BSOD, virus warnings that say they cannot clean the virus, spyware/adware pop-ups, systems that cannot reboot because they say they are missing a file, a system lockup, Windows error reporting happening one after the other, Missing or Invalid DLL errors, a slow moving Windows system, etc.
Then near the end stop the music, show someone running Linux with no problems, then show a message "Can't get any satisfaction, try a Linux solution by IBM and get some satisfaction!"
Genius! Brilliant! I am not just saying that because I thought it up!
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
> If people can forgive being killed then surely merely losing your data can be forgiven as well?
Yes, but the people who lost their data are still around to whine about it. Hmm.. maybe IBM just didn't go far enough...
Perhaps if the people who were killed were still around, they would do a better job of warning people against those cars... "Don't buy that car! It KILLED ME!! Also, the cup-holders are TOO SMALL!!!"
-Mark
Could this be IBM's revenge against Microsoft for
ruining their world domination plans (http://www.ibm.com/software/os/warp/)?
Come on, they've gotta be a bit pissed.
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there were lots of different kinds of micro-computers. There were Atari 800s and STs, Commodor 64s, 128s, and Amigas, TIs, Sinclairs, KayPros, the mighty TRS80, and lots of others including the Apple and the IBM PC. One of them had an open architecture that allowed other manufacturers to build things called "clones". The clone wars followed.
Now the dominant archtecture is the one that IBM pretty much gave away (yes, I remember there were lawsuits). Apple is hanging on, and the others are gone. The final blow to IBM dominance was when they tried a closed architecture with the self-administered nut-job of the PS/2 bus. (I owned a Model 50.) IBM is a lot of things, but hardware monopolist isn't it.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
It also turned out that their WebSphere IDE was not fully functional and up to date on Linux, only on Windows, and the web-based app for running their commerce system used JavaScript stuff that only works on -- you guessed it -- Internet Explorer.
Do you have OS/2 around? Just run 'grep -ril "Microsoft" *' on it and see how many "Copyright(C) Microsoft" you will find.
OS/2 was developed in conjunction with MS a long time ago, and there are things that MS still holds the copyright inside OS/2.
The Enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It's really simple. IBM, having nowhere else to turn, decided to embrace Linux to spite Microsoft.
Nowhere else to turn? IBM had its own robust well respected and trusted version of Unix called AIX. IBM did not need Linux, IBM merely found Linux convenient. Just like the majority of Linux users, they are not motivated by a hatred of Microsoft, they just want a low-cost Unix box and find Linux convenient.
Sigh, Straw Man argument yet again. There is no mass of people called "Slashdotters" who have a monolithic point of view, no matter how much you scream about it.
Uh, there is most certainly a majority viewpoint around here, based not only on editors' opinions but the majority of +5 upmods for pro-IBM/pro-Linux comments.
You seem to be stating nobody can draw any conclusions about a majority because a few people might disagree. Too bad.
Are you seriously arguing that Slashdot and most of its readers don't support IBM?
Or maybe their Thinkpads would do a better job of supporting linux - read through the linux-thinkpad list and see how much work is needed to configure linux for a recent TPad and how much stuff (like power management) still won't work as well as it does under Windows.
At the very least IBM could patch their broken DSDT
Is it just me, or is this news really at least 2-3 years late?
I mean, IBM was a sitting duck in late 90s. Then they re-focused their strategy around Linux, and came back as a completely new "big blue", one we can actually *like*.
In y2000, IBM has already been the greatest promotor of Linux, helped open the doors for other Free Software/Open Source in the companies, and got a really nice ROI on this investment - both in term of $$, and in the mindshare.
We are in 2004 now, and someone suddenly discovered all this? Oh, my!
How much has IBM made if a significant amount of those have websphere and/or DB2 + other software ibm sells???? HP doesn't have the software offering IBM does. So yes HP may sell more boxes than IBM in sheer numbers, however I bet IBM makes more per box once you add in all of the above mentioned 'extras'. We have a whole cluster of cheap (relativly speaking) IBM servers, however they all have Websphere. A few have DB2, most have some other IBM software on them. Point is a basic linux box from IBM costs us ~$5000 (Dual CPU). NOW put Websphere + appropriate licenses + DB2 + licenses (per CPU). Now that box costs us about $25000......
Thats whats IBM is about, not just selling a bunch of cheap x86 Linux boxes! Walmart can outdo everyone at that.
BTW Need some IBM consulting to go with that!!!!!
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
As someone else has pointed out, IBM has figured out that software commoditization is well underway and that soon there won't be any money to be made from COTS--a fact that Microsoft seems either to be oblivious to or afraid to acknowledge. So of course IBM embracing F/OSS is mostly a pragmatic move on their part. I don't see anyone here posting that they think IBM is doing it out of the goodness of their heart.
Most people that I've seen are glad that IBM is supporting F/OSS, but that doesn't mean that they implicitly trust them. Get real.
At the end of the day, you just have to face the fact that foo bar baz.
Did you miss the little bit under the animations?? Both Flash and Real are available for Linux, if you don't want to use them, don't complain because the option is there.
... and a depricated one at that.
Not on my 64-bit dual opteron GNU/Linux installation they're not. Nor are they on my PPC GNU/Linux laptop.
Legacy 32-bit Intel GNU/Linux is only a subset GNU/Linux
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
cheers- raga
It's the iSeries, and OS/400 seems to be called i5/OS nowadays...
Reminds me of some companies effort to replace their aging AS/400 with NT systems around y2k:
But it appears that Microsoft was not quite so amused, and denied the whole thing.
Remember how Microsoft sunk OS/2?
Remember how Microsoft destroyed the browser market by giving away Internet Explorer?
Someone at IBM does, and they know that by making the OS a commodity item, they can reap greater profits on hardware and consulting.
HP and Dell are about to get hit by a bus, and they don't even see it coming:
I, for one, welcome IBM's move. I'm sick of buying computer systems that Just Break(tm). I shouldn't have to constantly patch my machine; my hardware should work the way it is supposed to; my software shouldn't welcome viruses with open arms. IBM knows this, and that's why I'll be buying IBM hardware in the future.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
How many years have we talked about a Linux desktop coming that would be better than Windows? Write anywhere, debug everywhere? I use Firefox because it is the BEST browser. But Mozilla needs to market the fuck out of it or non-geeks will never know.
Marketing wins, period.
All I am saying, is that for every great technology, they need to have equally or even more great marketing, or they will fail. This is a fact that companies continue to ignore.
You can still download all of them for free and not pay the support contracts. Try that with commercial software.
The "source code" policy had to be stopped because customer-modified code generated a lot of calls for maintenance, and therefore costs for IBM at that time where the maintenance was still unbilled, I believe.
Now, the question is : "How would they name it" ?
Do you think "OS/3" would be a good choice ? :D
Signature omitted in order to save space. Thanks for your understanding.
As long as it's not Gilbert Gottfried, I'm cool with it.
dinner: it's what's for beer
I am not that sure about that. After all CMS or CICS were *much* more suited to terminal architectures available at that time (mostly 3278/9 and 3174 control units. On these, you just cannot run anything like vi ;o), but you ease the CPU work to the point where you can have have 17,500 CICS terminals or 2000 CMS terminals connected to a 3033 having... less memory than our present PCs ! :-o
Not that bad :o)
Also, I guess that IBMers were just as clumsy on UNIX than UNIX users were on CMS; and/or any vi-only users on the (excellent!) XEDIT :oD
IBM was probably right at the time; however, true, they were too slow to "move with the market" in time.
Probably it was not accustomed to at the time either ;o) Remember however that IBM mainframes already had these wonderful typeballs 2741 fully-buffered terminals when plenty of their competitors were happy to give Teletype ASR33 and KSR33s ! :-o
Signature omitted in order to save space. Thanks for your understanding.
The parent is a troll right? I have to respond anyway...
DB2/400 performance absolutely sucks
Yeah I started believing the propaganda too but then I did some testing of my own. Simple SQL select statements took twice as long using MYSQL as DB2/400. Throw in some scalar functions with a "group by" and MYSQL just rolled over and died. DB2/400 didn't even slow down.
WebSphere performance and management blows
I don't have experience with WebSphere but I do use Apache and Tomcat. The intranet I maintain runs both. Management is just what you would expect for any Apache/Tomcat install. The performance of Tomcat and java servlets hasn't been an issue either.
after the latest rounds of PTFs, services packs and OS upgrades have wrecked havoc on working installations
Are you sure this isn't a personal problem. I've been through three model upgrades, twice as many OS upgrades and countless PTF installs. All came off without a hitch. Total unplanned downtime in 6 years: 45 minutes.
Their RAID controllers, massive RISCs and reliable hardware are fantastic for stable servers with 24/7 uptime. But OS/400 just can't take advantage of it.
I'm not sure what a massive RISC is but that doesn't matter. The reliability of iSeries/AS400s is directly due to OS/400 so I'm not sure how OS/400 isn't taking advantage of all that great hardware. The error handling capabilities of OS/400 are a true work of art. Virtually all cards and devices can be hot swapped. Adding drives and new features (PCI cards) can be done without a reboot. Newer models include standby processors for capacity on demand and fail over capability. And OS/400 can run multiple partitions. Those partitions can be OS/400 or Linux. I just don't understand what you mean by OS/400 just can't take advantage of it
The iSeries really does Rock! To know it is to love it.
Having run OS/2 for years, I can atest to this little factiod, running Command & Conquer in a window on OS/2 with sound, while working on email and having a telnet session up monitoring a process at work. Can you yet do this in Windows? (I haven't tried, the BSOD frightens me too much to leave anything running during a game!)
And, IIRC, the thing that killed OS/2 wasn't anything less insidious than MS's anti-competitive practices, something about Office 97 not being backwards compatible by design (recall that little forced update fiasco?) and Office 97 apps asking for a memory address at the 2GB limit. (OS/2's VMs were limited to 512MB, so Office apps bombed when they didn't get what they asked for, not that they used anything above 512MB. I suppose someone enterprising should have hacked the memory request code, but that didn't happen.)
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I used to work with an AS/400. Had a drive failure ( dolts ( not IBM ) installing drives had set the input voltage to wrong setting, messed up controller ). The machine halted, warned us about the problem. Dolts came back, made temp fix, got the drive array back up. Machine just resumed what it was about, no additional problems.
We decided to upgrade the processor in our AS/400. The new one was the PowerPC based unit. The old one was whatever was in use before that. I had worked with the IBM service person before, so he let me do the upgrade. Did a PTF like HAL upgrade, shut down the machine, slid out old card with CPU on it, slid in new card with CPU on it. IPL, and away we went. Everything worked just as before, except faster.
emt 377 emt 4
That is just what I was thinking. Make all operating systems free today and it hurts MS more than it does IBM.
That's uncanny. It's almost as if you had read the linked article, which made a similar point. Great minds think alike, I guess. :)
Of course, IBM's market share of personal desktop computers could be better and I have never understood why that have so much trouble competing in that arena.
IBM made the mistake of trying to control (and tax) the PC market by moving from their original open architecture to a proprietary MicroChannel bus with its PS/2 line of PCs in the mid-80s. Ironically, IBM PCs came to be viewed as *non-IBM compatible*. They got greedy, and the clone makers, who provided a better, cheaper alternative, ate IBM's lunch. Starting to sound like a familiar story?
So, the CPU is the same...
The hardware around the CPU is not. As someone who has seen both, the AS/400 ( in the days I was involved with it ) was very good. Very expandable, lots of throughput. We had the corp office, and about ~200 external users, and things ran pretty well. Hardware to replicate this in the PC world? Way more than one machine. And we would have had to pay to have admin folks at each external site. Cost in aquisition and in ongoing maintainance would have ( and did ) make the AS/400 look like a bargain. Not to mention that we would have had to pay thru the nose to get the software needed written.
Hardware: yes, it has the same CPU, but that CPU is doing business, not waiting for IO completion. All that kind of stuff is pushed out to the devices, which are generally very smart comparied to PC hardware. *That* is part of what you are paying the extra for. Dont buy it if it isnt usefull to you, but dont say dont buy it, if it is. One size does not fit all.
emt 377 emt 4
IBM has always looked at the long view - the short term stuff never really mattered to IBM.
... In order to be competitive in the consumer PC sales circus, IBM PC-Co signed a deal with MSFT to license the OEM Windows 95... Without that deal, IBM would have to bundle the full retail edition of Windows 95 and it would make their PCs uncompetitive. Unfortunately, the contract had a clause which was the knife which killed OS/2 - IBM could not sell/bundle OS/2 nor could they develop it.
... all the driver support (the old PITA for OS/2 users) is actively worked on by the community (face it, if peripherial vendors wouldn't write an OS/2 driver, they wouldn't work on a Linux driver either)
OS/2's Death was a simple case of smothering the baby because their hands were tied
IBM is basically focusing on what the industry would look like in 10 years time. In the long term, the software is essentially free, consumer hardware is sold at cost (it practically is nowadays) and all the money to be made is in consulting and customizing the software.
The major benefit of something like Linux is a single architecture which works on a wide range of hardware... from simple embedded low-power systems to high performance clusters. It makes it attractive as the skills are the same on all of them - simply the hardware may be tuned easily for the application.
When IBM looks at Linux, they see it as a platform which they can launch themselves from. This was how they treated OS/2 - as a vehicle to sell their consultancy. The retail sales of OS/2 never justified it's development costs. However, the retail "public" presence of OS/2 was important: It's very difficult to sell services on top of a system which the customer has not heard of before.
In many ways, for IBM, Linux is better than OS/2... They do not need to spend so much effort to market it. It already has a penetration into the minds of the public and generally the public perception is "It's free; it's fast; it's secure... sometimes difficult to understand" but the last bit is not a bad hurdle - it just means that the customer already expects to hire someone to put it all together.
I am pretty sure that IBM makes a lot of its profits in consultancy and custom programming. Ok, their mainframe deals can be pretty sweet for the revenue - but such big iron costs big bucks in the first place. The software front, IBM knows that it can be painful to move faster than the smaller guys (think of IBM as some kind of dancing elephant)... They are using the nimbleness of the FOSS movement to develop the foundation
Hmm... Like any long posts, I kinda forgot what my original point was...
-- The universe began. Life started on a billion worlds...
-- Except on one where stupidity was there first.
IBM certainly has had a history of taking market-capturing monopolistic moves not terribly different than some of the stuff Microsoft has been pulling. The difference though, between IBM and Microsoft is that for the most part, IBM's products don't suck.
Think for a moment-- if Microsoft's products were anywhere near as well designed as, say Apple's, do you really think they'd be getting the kind of flak they're getting now over their monopolistic practices? Linux would have a much harder time of it if most Windows users actually liked Windows.
And that's not to say that IBM can't produce junk, I'm sure there's plenty of examples people could point to. Generally though, IBM is capable of recognizing, admitting and/or correcting the problem when it occurs. But Microsoft's FLAGSHIP product is junk, it's been junk for its entire lifespan, and it would appear that not only is Microsoft incapable of competing on quality, they are completely aware of that fact and therefore resort to the most underhanded means of lock-in and other consumer-unfriendly market protections (either that, or they simply prefer to do things in an underhanded way-- a distinct possiblity).
Because of that, I'm inclined to give IBM far more slack with regards to it's "selfish" efforts to steal market share away from Microsoft...
...then why don't they offer Linux on the laptops they sell? Even a dual boot laptop would be a sign of their sincerity.
All the Slashdotters think IBM is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts
I don't think anyone here truly believes IBM is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It just so happens that IBM's interests are for the moment aligned with ours[*] so we are happy to support them in our common goals. Just like during WW2 USA and USSR shared common goals in opposing Germany and Japan.
Hopefully there are enough checks and balances (eg GPL) to prevent IBM from harming the OSS movement if OSS is no longer in IBM's interest.
[*] Open Source advocates.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
No, the WAFERS are 300mm. It's the new semiconductor standard. The actual lithograph (9nm, 130micron) machines are easier to replace than an entire production line. 200mm -> 300mm. ;-)
screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me screw me a third and ill go open source on your arse anyone who knows the history of IBM-Microsoft dealings will get the joke.
What a second... do you mean to tell me that the first goal of business is to COMPETE with one another in attempts to gain market control and increase profit potential?
I... I'm speechless. I thought that companies simply enjoyed creating stuff for people, and that the money was an unimportant "perk" of giving openly to the community.
What kind of a sick world do we live in? And why didn't anyone tell me this kind of thing sooner?
I don't get the parent posters rant either. As a person who admires well designed products, the AS400 ranks high in my book.
:)
:)
Everything on the system is an object. Devices, files, users, etc. The design goals of the AS400 were met, the glue between Mainframes, Midrange and PCs. To have it run Linux in a VM speaks volumes on the extensibility of the system.
IBM's loyalty to the system is also admirable. I once placed an 'Intel Inside' sticker on the front of ours (leased) and the technician dragged my boss into the computer room and explained to him that I had basically defiled a work of art and IBM wouldn't put up with it
The only flaw in the design is my hatred towards RPG, but thats a different topic
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.