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Book Review: Moon-Mars Commission Report

code_rage writes "A preview of the Aldridge Commission Report was discussed recently on Slashdot. Now that the full report has been released, a more in-depth presentation might be appropriate." code_rage has written a lengthy summary of the report below. Other readers sent in the Executive Summary and several news stories. A Journey to Inspire, Innovate, and Discover author President's Commission on Implementation of United States Space Exploration Policy pages 64 publisher US Government Printing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov/ rating The glass is half {empty,full} depending on your outlook reviewer code_rage ISBN 0160730759 summary Presidential Commission proposes major changes to NASA

The single most prolific spinoff attributable to NASA is not Teflon, Tang, or Velcro. No, it's high-level reports on how to fix NASA. The latest report, written under the authority of a 9-member commission named by President Bush, proposes how to implement NASA's latest orders: complete the Space Station and retire the Shuttle by the end of the decade, return humans to the Moon by 2020, and eventually send humans to Mars.

The Background
The President's proposal, while lacking details, has been greeted with enthusiasm by many aerospace workers, for whom the application of the term "beleaguered" is more than appropriate. What other major industry has lost half its workforce in the last 15 years? (Oh yeah, the airline, IT and telecom industries, who managed about the same attrition rate in only 2 years: evidence of efficiency, or something.) Space scientists have awaited the implementation report with some trepidation: their Hubble servicing mission has already been traded for the uncertain prospect of a robotic mission, and some NASA science missions have already been pushed back by the budget impact of the Moon-Mars mission.

Meanwhile, public opinion has not quite caught fire. Opinion polls taken in January show at best indifference and at worst hostility to the new plan. Greg Klerkx wrote "Perhaps the most disheartening aspect of the explosion of Columbia, other than the human tragedy, was that it changed very few opinions about NASA or NASA's human spaceflight activities. Both should continue, the polls unanimously concluded, but with no more or less vigor than at present." [p. 12, Klerkx 2004]

The Commission, led by longtime government official E.C. Aldridge, also includes four space scientists, a retired Air Force General, a former Congressman, a business and government executive, and the well-known CEO of a high tech firm. Notably, no astronauts or former NASA executives were on the panel.

Contents
Transmittal Letter
Executive Summary
Section I - Introduction: The Space Exploration Vision
Section II - Organizing the US Government for Success
Section III - Building a Robust Space Industry
Section IV - Exploration and Science Agenda
Section V - Inspiring Current and Future Generations
Section VI - Concluding Comments
Appendices

Historical Context
After any disaster or major program failure, commissions are empaneled and they tend to produce two sorts of reports. The first type of report is a failure analysis, including specific prescriptions for recovery. The second is a more broad examination of strategies and goals. This report falls into the second category. While the Aldridge Commission report includes some recommendations that duplicate some previous ones, the new report differs in some important ways from those.

In 1986, the Paine Commission examined how NASA should respond to the Challenger failure. The commission's report in places reads like a primer on space technologies, and proposes specific goals similar to those of the Bush plan: completion of the Space Station, return to the Moon, and a manned mission to Mars. The Paine Commission seems to have felt that the basic problem facing NASA was a lack of a long-term vision and political commitment.

In 1990, the Augustine Commission studied how NASA should respond to a variety of troubling problems on the Shuttle and other programs. This study endorsed space science strongly, while also supporting Space Station. The report focused strongly on workforce issues like morale, attrition and aging. It also noted weaknesses in NASA's executive leadership practices. The report made some specific reform proposals, some of which reappear in the Aldridge report.

The Report
The Aldridge Commission report differs from previous examinations in important ways. First, it has a very limited scope. The Commission did not perform an open-ended study of what NASA ought to do, or how much emphasis to place on astronomy vs planetary science vs human spaceflight. They only studied how to accomplish President Bush's new goals for the space program. Paradoxically, their limited brief resulted in a far more profound proposal to reorganize NASA than previous reports. The range and depth of reforms proposed by this report greatly exceeds those of previous reports.

The top-level recommendations include:
1. Establish a Space Exploration Steering Council, reporting to the President
2. NASA should establish much more private industry participation in space operations, beginning with unmanned launch services
a. Reorganization of NASA HQ
b. Spin off NASA Centers as Federally Funded Research & Development Centers (similar to JPL and the DOE National Labs)
c. NASA should establish 3 new organizations:
+ a technical advisory board, modeled on the Defense Science Board
+ an Independent Cost Estimating organization, modeled on DoD Cost Analysis Improvement Group
+ a research organization, modeled on DARPA and formed from the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts
d. NASA should adopt DoD-style project management methods
3. NASA should identify and begin development of critical technologies
4. Renew and sustain development of a robust space industry
a. NASA should actively solicit ideas from all sources
b. Congress should fund prizes targeting specific missions and technologies, and work on space property rights
5. NASA should pursue international partnerships
6. NASA should consult regularly with scientists and the National Academy of Sciences
7. The space exploration program should be tied into educational programs and public relations

Section I "Introduction: The Space Exploration Vision" presents three basic justifications for the exploration program: The human urge to explore, economic growth, and national security. Three "imperatives for success" are also presented: sustainability, affordability, and credibility. Sustainability is described as being able to sustain both technical momentum and long-term political support for what will be an expensive program. Affordability is described as "go as you can pay," where each milestone is reached through "spiral, evolutionary developments." The report compares the funding to cancer research, where the pace is determined by a political judgment of "annually, how much can we afford?" The report describes credibility as an amalgam of best practices. While the Commission recognized that space exploration is full of risk, NASA must not appear careless or foolish. NASA must embrace both management practices as well as technical ideas regardless of their source.

Analysis
The Commission's Report is itself a model of the practices they exhort NASA to follow. Whether by intention or not, many of the ideas in the report have been the stated position of advocacy groups like the National Space Society and the Mars Society. Some of the reforms have been specifically proposed by previous Commissions.

The biggest problem I wondered about was funding. So far, about $12B has been proposed for this vision. Yet, many of the recommendations seem likely to cost a great deal of money. For example, on p. 23, the report states that much of NASA's infrastructure needs substantial modernization. Elsewhere, technology R&D is addressed by proposing a DARPA model or even the In-Q-Tel Venture Capital firm funded by the CIA. The Pentagon's "System-of-systems" approach is proposed as a model for project architecture. Special attention is given to the need for reliable heavy lift launch capability. In discussing how to pursue international participants, the Joint Strike Fighter program is listed as a model. Each of these areas requires either significant direct investment (infrastructure, heavy lift, R&D) or large bureaucracies to administer complex contracts (system-of-systems, JSF model). There is an unavoidable tension between the need for R&D, "go as you can pay," available funds, and "credibility."

The money issue is partially addressed by proposing tax incentives, privatization and private competition. But competition cannot reduce the amount of honest-to-goodness investment needed to remediate the technology deficit. It can only promote the most efficient approach. We need more R&D, yet private competition is seen as a way to "reduce government investment" (p. 20). The elephant in the room is that aerospace is a highly regulated market with relatively low profit margins. This means that direct reinvestment is fairly low. A glance at a list of the top R&D companies shows that top-tier aerospace companies do not reinvest a lot of their own money.

The second issue that troubled me is the applicability of the models they proposed. JPL, the National Labs, various DoD organizations and methods, the X Prize, and other examples are listed as models for various reforms of NASA. This raises some questions. First, are these models applicable? No evidence is presented to indicate that the Commission considered whether different organizations with different goals, constraints, missions, and sizes can use a given model successfully. The proposal to spin off most NASA centers as FFRDCs seems quite radical. Would any commercial firm spin off everything except a design team? Is this what the Aldridge Commission proposes of NASA? How many NASA employees would be left, and in which disciplines? Can the JPL model be applied well to other NASA centers? Would the centers work together better or worse? Would there be limits to how many centers a given contractor would be permitted to operate? I suspect it's much easier to designate JPL as a model than it is to enact in the real world. Do the security and procurement scandals at some DOE labs give us anything to worry about? What about the need for the National Labs to chase proposals in light of funding cuts? Does that make organizations more market oriented and relevant, or does it simply waste the time of researchers?

Finally, the Commission's report failed to address the biggest political problem our human spaceflight program faces: a lack of relevancy to ordinary people. The transmittal letter to the President states that the Commission's web site received over 6,000 written inputs, and that public comments were 7:1 in favor of the new vision. This is of course not a scientific survey, rather it is a self-selected and rather small sample of people who are presumably interested in space exploration. Elsewhere in the report, supportive public testimony is cherry-picked without context or attribution. In one case, I recognized a quote that, taken out of context, sounds much more supportive of a government monopoly on human space travel than the speaker probably meant: "We all wanted to go" (p. 13) was characterized as an expression of the deep and broad effect that the Apollo program had on Americans. I believe this was Tony Tether, Director of DARPA. The full quote was: "What NASA seemed to forget was that then, we all wanted to go," Tether told commissioners. "We were forgotten about." But if NASA can find a way for American citizens to take the baby steps that would eventually allow them to reach the moon - or even just space - themselves, it would do wonders for the space agency's support, he added. "If you can do that, you will have a constituency that you don't have today," Tether said. The longer quote is here.

These anecdotes do not invalidate the report, but I do wonder if the Commission is overselling the enthusiasm that the public will have for this program. Section I, and the report's title, endorse the "inspiration, education, and innovation" arguments for space travel that have so far failed to garner support for a more expansive space vision. One brief mention was made of space tourism and of making NASA an engine of the economy (p. 20). There are hints at the relevance problem sprinkled throughout the report, but public support is more or less presumed, not demonstrated.

What's Good:
If your attitude about NASA reorg proposals is "wake me if it's a big deal," then this is your wakeup call. The Aldridge Commission Report proposes the most profound and far-reaching reorganization of NASA since its founding.

To a larger degree than I would have expected from this board, the proposals are strongly market- and business-oriented. I presume this is the implicit desire of President Bush (MBA, former CEO) and possibly NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe (an accountant).

The report is written in an engaging, enthusiastic style.

What's Bad:
Where's the Beef? "Go as you can pay" does not seem like an adequate response to an agency that has faced aging infrastructure and workers for more than 14 years (see Augustine report). Increased funding and profit margins might address many issues better than bureaucratic realignments or spinoffs. There is no discussion of how to value intangibles like scientific discovery and inspiration, yet tangible values are of prime concern to contractors. NASA's credibility is discussed only in terms of competency, not based on perceived relevancy to the public.

What's Missing:
There is no consideration of potential disadvantages of the various proposals. Supporters of space science may find the report dismissive of their priorities and concerns. There is no critical evaluation of the benefits of space program investments vs direct investments in education, science and technology.

This report is remarkably thin on supplementary materials: there are 13 pp of appendices. More is available on the Commission's web site.

Refs:
[Klerkx 2004]: "Lost In Space: The Fall of NASA and the Dream of a New Space Age," Greg Klerkx, 2004. ISBN 0375421505
[Paine 1986]: http://history.nasa.gov/painerep/cover.htm
[Augustine 1990]: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/augustin e/racfup1.htm
[Aldridge 2004]: http://www.moontomars.org

The reviewer is an aerospace engineer with experience in human spaceflight engineering and operations, commercial satellite development and operations, and scientific satellite development and operations. No current relationship to NASA, and no significant interests in companies with an interest in this proposal.

You can download A Journey to Inspire, Innovate and Discover from moontomars.org. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to contribute.

254 comments

  1. Excellent Review! by apsmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is an amazingly thorough review - thanks "code_rage"! And you've hit on exactly the point that disturbs me a bit too - if this is all so great, why aren't we planning to spend a lot more money on it, rather than just continuing in the same-old ho-hum manner in space? Perhaps the commissioners felt that was out of their scope, but that seem to be the substance of Kerry's
    complaint too - if we're serious about this, lets spend some real money on it!

    My thoughts from a couple of days before the report came out are up on sciscoop - I think the report does adopt a lot of the "O'Neill" vision of space. Maybe it's our job to make sure the money really comes through now.

    --

    Energy: time to change the picture.

    1. Re:Excellent Review! by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I though the whole point of running up massive deficits was precisely to kill off these sorts of discussions. Well, maybe as they pertain to universal health care and education...

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Excellent Review! by mhmealling · · Score: 1

      Come on Arthur! You should know better! ;-) Since when has throwing money at NASA actually helped? This budget is almost identical to the same budget that _built_ Apollo. With the likes of SpaceX, Bigelow and Scaled why should NASA's budget be larger? Especically when this effort gets _all_ of the Shuttle and most of the ISS budgets in 5 or so years.

    3. Re:Excellent Review! by pilgrim23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wonderful article. In a similar vein I would suggest looking at Dr Jerry Pournelle's Chaos Manor site http://www.jerrypournelle.com/ and his various reviews of NASA policy. also, this article (which is linked on Jerry's site) http://tinyurl.com/2ljja truely says it all on the problems with NASA.

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    4. Re:Excellent Review! by demachina · · Score: 1

      An OK review though it leaves out the huge pink elephants in the room.

      A.The board completely avoided closing some of NASA's to many competing centers which desperately needs to be done. They spend to much time fighting each other and there is way to much duplication of effort and overhead. They did this because they knew if they tried to close any centers the congressional delegation in the state its in would fight the whole plan tooth and nail. That strongly suggest NASA's centers are more pork than anything to do with getting the job done. I'd personally vote to close Johnson. Houston is the armpit of the U.S. and the only reason Johnson is there is because President Johnson wanted to put it there. Everything Johnson does should be at Kennedy for the sake of simple efficiency and proximity. Many of the contributing causes to the Columbia disaster were due to really poor long distance communication between Johnson and Kennedy.

      B. It probably does need to be done but the major thing this plan is going to try to do is to knock all of NASA's employees out of the ranks of the civil service which is why Bush likes this whole idea. It is an undying mantra of Republican's that they want to get rid of civil servants. They tend to be unionized, which Republicans hate with a passion and being unionized they tend to vote against Republican's, and they are hard to control or motivate. If the Bush administration can move thousands of people from the ranks of the civil service to private contractors it also will put a whole lot more money/pork in to the pockets of their friends and benefactors in big business. You can't argue that it would be a plus since one of NASA's biggest defects is they have lots of dead weight employees they can't get rid of easily or motivate.

      --
      @de_machina
  2. How are we to properly discuss this… by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...given so little detail?

    1. Re:How are we to properly discuss this… by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Painfully obvious that you missed the point, jackass.

  3. X-Prize by Mz6 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    First off, what a great review! I know you briefly touched on the X-Prize, but don't you think that once the X-Prize is claimed it should have a pretty grand effect on Space exploration? Especially since the plans include going to Mars? I think for them to accomplish this goal in the next 20 years they will need some major funding, and above all some better innovation.

    Just my $0.02.

    --
    Hmmm.
    1. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      To get to Mars is going to require a radically new technology. We either have to speed up the spacecraft considerably, figure out a way to safely put the crew on ice for the trip, or figure out how to recycle almost every scrap of organic material the crew is going to use.

      A 3 year trip is a lot of food, and a hell of a lot of packaging material. In flight-replitishment with remote probes is going to be very tricky. (Think hitting a bullet with a bullet.)

      It's also going to require a very unique set of individuals who can stay confined with others and not go completely nuts.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:X-Prize by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lets look at it in terms of MREs. According to a company that makes MREs (My Own Meal), each of their MREs are 8 ounces and provide 1200 calories each. In space, certainly 2400 calories would be plenty - I'd be surprised if they burned anywhere close to that, but lets be pessimistic. That's 16 ounces per day. Given an estimated 9 month mission (3 months transit in each direction, 3 month stay), that's 270 lbs per astronaut. The fuel mass alone will dwarf that; it's a non-issue.

      Where you got your "3 year trip" line from, I'm not sure (perhaps if you wanted to get there with ion drives...) Even three years of MREs, however, would only weigh one ton per astronaut. We're looking at a spacecraft that on its own will weigh hundreds of tons. It's still not that big of a deal.

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    3. Re:X-Prize by Entropius · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know some folks who work on water filtration and recycling systems for missions like this. It's quite a challenge, as things that we don't even consider as contaminants will build up in the water supply over enough cycles.

      Remote probes aren't efficient anyway, since you've got to pay the energy cost to boost that stuff halfway to Mars anyway. May as well just make a bigger main spacecraft. On the bright side, those supplies can be boosted into Earth orbit in advance of the manned mission taking off.

      Back-of-the-envelope math: A person in space goes through, iirc, about 1800 Kcalories a day. Dried food provides somewhere around 4 Kcal/gram, so you're looking at 450 grams (=1 pound) per person per day. For a four-person mission over three years, you're looking at two tons of food.

      Considering that any Mars ship is going to be huge anyway, this isn't that bad. It's the water that's nasty.

    4. Re:X-Prize by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      I know you briefly touched on the X-Prize, but don't you think that once the X-Prize is claimed it should have a pretty grand effect on Space exploration?
      The X-Prize is all but irelevant when it comes to space exploration. Space exploration and exploitation means acess to orbit, not glorified amusement park rides. Space exploration needs the equivalent of a min-van, while the X-prize craft are little more than golf carts.
    5. Re:X-Prize by Aimak · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's also going to require a very unique set of individuals who can stay confined with others and not go completely nuts.

      Indeed very unique cosmonauts because most probably they will have an one-way ticket to Mars. A return trip to Mars will double everything: costs, risks, etc.

      Volunteers, step forward!!

    6. Re:X-Prize by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Informative
      If you're flying in a commercial airliner, you've got about 13% of the potential+kinetic energy that it requires to win the X-prize.

      However, once you've won the X-prize, you've still only achieved about 3% of the potential+kinetic energy that it requires to reach orbit.

      Considering that you've got to carry your rocket fuel with you as you go, achieving orbit is even harder than the 3% number would suggest. There's still a long way to go.

      It's going to be a long time before private astronauts competing for prize money spend more than a few fleeting minutes in space, much less think about going to Mars.

    7. Re:X-Prize by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      To get to Mars is going to require a radically new technology.
      Not really, we have much of the technology, we just need to move it off the lab bench and into the field. The real problem is going to be to design equipment that can last for the whole length of the trip, and to arrange for proper spares etc..

      Sparing is a very black art. The (US) Navy has been working on the problem of properly managing spares, minimizing MTBF and MTTR, and minimizing the ammount of preventative maintenance required etc. for a couple of decades now. And though great strides have been made, there's still a long way to go.

      A 3 year trip is a lot of food, and a hell of a lot of packaging material.
      With a modest amount of recycling and some care in planning, you can get the requirements for life support down to around a ton of supplies per person, per year. Much of those supplies can also serve 'double duty' by serving as radiation shielding around the 'storm cellar'.
    8. Re:X-Prize by beacher · · Score: 1

      Anyone who's eaten MREs for a substantial amount of time will tell you that MREs really stand for Meals Refusing To Exit. If you picked a food that actually digested and could be evacuated properly, you will see some fuel gain from waste disposal.

      MREs are evil. Eat ONE hamburger after a week of MREs and get ready to poop a weeks worth.

    9. Re:X-Prize by code_rage · · Score: 1

      Yes, I think the Ansari X-Prize is very important. The Aldridge Commission report did mention the X-prize competition as a model that should be expanded upon. They said that about $400M has been invested by the competitors, to go after a $10M prize: a 40:1 investment.

      Another important effect of such prizes is the disproportionate amount of excitement that is generated. I don't think anything NASA could do for $10M would generate as much news coverage and public interest.

      Also, these sorts of competitions bring in a lot of creative ideas that would probably never be tested at NASA. The X-prize, if successful, will subject NASA to a new sort of competition that will spur more creativity. I'm confident that NASA employees and contractors have a lot of creative ideas, but often there is no chance to try them out because somewhere, the design has already been decided upon.

      Section III of the report is all about revitalizing the space industry. If this report does nothing else, it calls attention to some innovative ideas that address what Aviation Week calls "The Crisis In Aerospace." All to the good.

    10. Re:X-Prize by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Where you got your "3 year trip" line from, I'm not sure"

      Three years is the minimum-energy transfer orbit to and from Mars... any faster than that starts to require a lot more fuel.

    11. Re:X-Prize by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      I believe what the grandparent was (attempting) to comment on was that the report states that NASA should try to follow the X-Prize model in places, not use the X-Prize rockets themselves.

      The report claims that such prizes and bounties for specific pieces of the exploration pie will energize the industry and provide some good tech, to boot.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    12. Re:X-Prize by Rei · · Score: 1

      It took Spirit and Opportunity a mere three months to get to Mars.

      According to this NASA page, the fast transit considered is only two months. Most proposals I've seen are for 3 to 6 months.

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    13. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Remeber, when you throw around numbers like "only a ton", that is a ton per astronaut. And that doesn't include packing material. If you have a 10 person crew, that is 10 tons of material. Each kilogram of cargo required several more kilograms of fuel to push it to it's destination, and several kilograms to slow it back down to orbital speed.

      Sure, half of that will be used up on the inbound leg, but then you have to boost the other half OUT of mars orbit and back to earth. That's more fuel, which for the first part of the trip is just cargo needing even more fuel for the first leg to push it.

      We are talking about a set of complex equations where painting on the interior can make the spacecraft 5 tons heavier.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    14. Re:X-Prize by chasm!killer · · Score: 1

      What no one seems to be considering is that adding 2000 lbs of suppiles to 170 lbs of astronaut and 200 lbs of life support per astronaut really is increasing the payload over 400%.

      We then have to increase the size of the lauch vehicle 400% (otherwise we don't have the boost to get it 100% of the way to Mars, probably just past the moon.

      So total weight of the lauch vehicle is 5X that of a comparable size (1110 lb robot lander, if we have 3 astronauts) robot mission.

      I think we do need some planning and intelligent budgeting, rather than "back of the envelope" executive summaries.

      --
      -- Ancient (IBM 1620 and Atari 400) Programmer
    15. Re:X-Prize by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "According to this NASA page, the fast transit considered is only two months."

      Maybe you should read that page more carefully, since it says nothing of the kind: 'the transit time to Mars will be about 180 days', then there's nearly a two year stay waiting for a launch window back to Earth.

      "It took Spirit and Opportunity a mere three months to get to Mars."

      Spirit: launched June 10 2003, landed January 3rd 2004

      Opportunity: launched July 8, 2003, landed January 24th 2004

      That sure was a long 'mere three months'.

    16. Re:X-Prize by mnemonic_ · · Score: 1

      That page mentions a 6 month transit time to Mars, then a 16 to 18 month surface stay, then 6 months back to Mars. That's 28-30 months, which matches most proposals that I've seen.

    17. Re:X-Prize by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      1) Last time I checked plants like Carbon dioxide. Mars' atmosphere is almost 98% CO2. Plants just need to be kept warm.

      2) It takes 6 months to get to Mars using current technology. We've had people on the space station longer. The only real issue is radiation, and that's only if we launch at solar maximum. The 3 year figure is getting there, staying for 1.5 years, and getting back. This is taken from NASA's reference mission.

      3) It's not like they're going to be incommunicado the whole time. A 40 minute delay is fine for anyone who can write a nice letter.

      4) It's "replenishment."

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    18. Re:X-Prize by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      I'll go.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    19. Re:X-Prize by benhocking · · Score: 1

      Hohmann transfers are a typical low-energy trajectory used when going to Mars. See this site for an easy tool to generate a time-table for leaving from Earth and arriving at Mars. The next good time for departure is July 9th, 2005, and you arrive on March 25th, 2006, taking approximately 6 and a half months. Of course, then you'd have to stay on Mars for the next window if you really wanted to be thrifty.

      There are other faster alternatives that use more energy, and not all of these are prohibitively expensive.

      --
      Ben Hocking
      Need a professional organizer?
    20. Re:X-Prize by schnarff · · Score: 1

      You know, you really ought to catch up on the FAQs. It's only a 6-month flight to Mars, and astronauts would be on the surface of the planet for 1.5 years -- for a total round-trip of less than you're saying it'd take one-way. Besides that, if we're smart enough to use resources on Mars -- i.e. carbon dioxide in its atmosphere to manufacture rocket fuel for the return trip -- we can pare down the amount of materials necessary for this trip greatly.

      Mars today is doable. We just have to do it right.

    21. Re:X-Prize by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Of course, then you'd have to stay on Mars for the next window if you really wanted to be thrifty."

      Exactly, that's why it takes three years for the round trip.

    22. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      Plants metabolize oxygen just like we do.

      Yes, the do convert CO2 (and water vapor) to O2 and sugar. But they need oxygen to fuel the process.

      And assuming that you can just take off on Tuesday and be on Mars six months later, it's going to take you at least as long to get back. That's 12 months.

      And orbital mechanics aren't that simple. The Earth and Mars are on 2 different orbits. Once per year, the Earth is closer to Mars. Months later, Earth is on the opposite side of the Sun from Mars. Thats the distance from the Earth to Mars (Varies) PLUS 93,000,000 miles.

      You wind up parked on Mars because you are waiting for the Earth to catch up to you.

      Oh, and your 40 minute delay is more like 70 minutes when you arrive at Mars. And you are going to be sharing a very narrow bandwidth with the Ship's telemitry. Email would work, certainly photo attachments, but you are out of luck if you want to see a video of something.

      Oh yes, your only movie collection is what you bring with you. Which, by the way, is more cargo.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    23. Re:X-Prize by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone who's eaten MRE's will tell you that MRE really stands for something totally unprintable. I was in the basic training class that tested the original dehydrated pork patty meal, which was one that was dropped from the final mix. If you think the ones in use today are bad, you should see the rejects. To be fair, the "passed through a Canadian reactor ham brick on two thick crackers" meal is pretty good, and the noodles and chicken in sauce is fine if you have time to use a heater. We can hope the astronauts won't be too pressed for time to cook properly. That and stay completely away from the various forms of "pound cake" (Sawdust flavored, sawdust flavored with chocolate chips, sawdust and banana bits, sawdust and cinamon spice, etc.).

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    24. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      I said a 3 year trip. That includes 6 months out, 6 months back, and 18 months loiter time. (What do I just pull these numbers out of my ass or something?) Depending on the way the orbits line up, 6 months of fudge room.

      Now, considering what a challenge it is to get material into Earth orbit, with an industrial base and a ready supply of factories and refined material, I am highly doubtful you would have much luck trying to scratch build that infrastructure on an alien planet, with materials you are carrying with you.

      Do you realize how much energy is required to refine raw materials? And then how much energy would be required to launch said products back into space? And manufacturing equipment you plan on bringing with you is going to be heavy. And it's going to need it's own power supply. (And if you plan on relying on solar, you had better plan on being on Mars for a while.)

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    25. Re:X-Prize by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      But we can crack CO2 and make oxygen. All we'd need would be electricity from solar panels or nuclear power. (Nukes would be better because solar panels have a low power density.)

      Second, it's not one 12 month trip, it's two six month trips, with replenishment on Mars. Don't bring along enough food and water and fuel for the whole trip, just enough for one way. (Plus emergency.) In situ production saves cost and weight.

      70 minutes is fine. Email and photo attachments are great. With a better comm system (a satellite left in mars orbit, for example), you could easily send video. And if not, no biggie. Hell, Lewis and Clark were out of communication for years and though to be dead. Email isn't so bad.

      And a 400GB drive holds dozens of movies. And weighs very, very little. Considering the crap movies they're making nowadays, it might be better to bring along the classics instead of relying on Hollywood to send them to you!

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    26. Re:X-Prize by Rei · · Score: 1

      My bad - I misread the page. :)

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    27. Re:X-Prize by Rei · · Score: 1

      I mentioned that it was a ton per astronaut. Compared to most mission design proposals (which typically range from 100 to 1000 tons), it is trivial. The biggest area of focus needs to be on specific impulse for the craft and radiation shielding. These are the areas where you'll cut off the most mass - not food.

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    28. Re:X-Prize by Mr.+Foogle · · Score: 1
      It's also going to require a very unique set of individuals who can stay confined with others and not go completely nuts. Kinda like the crews on US Navy submarines ...

      --
      Display some adaptability.
    29. Re:X-Prize by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 1

      You don't scratch build the factory on Mars. You build it on Earth, send it to Mars 18 months before the astronauts, let it churn away for that time, lots of consumables for them by the time they get there. In case of problems, you send an identical automated factory in a separate ship at the same time the manned ship leaves, which will arrive at roughly the same time. Seriously, the GP is correct; it's not that hard to get there using Mars Direct; see here, here and even here (NASA adopted a more conservative version of Mars Direct some time ago). Or read The Case for Mars .

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
    30. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      The first site talks about launching a nuclear powered factory to mars to produce methane-based rocket fuel.

      Methane is a LOUSY rocket fuel.

      Site number three is almost humerous, and I quote:

      Conventional chemical rockets (currently used for the space shuttle) will be used to launch Mars-bound spacecraft into LEO. The propulsion system that will most likely be used by the Mars transit vehicles once in LEO will be Nuclear Thermal Propulsion. Developed to near-flight status in the 1960s, for any given velocity change, a nuclear thermal rocket (NTR) uses about half as much propellant as a chemical engine.

      Well no. The NTP engine was NOT developed to near-flight status. It was never physically constructed, let alone tested. The operation of this device violates most nuclear test ban treaties, and operating one withing the Van Allen belt would eventually contaminate the Earth's surface with nuclear material. (Whether that is elementary at this point in light of previous atmospheric tests and Chernobyl I leave as an exercise for later.)

      Even with this wonderous (but never actually built) form of propulsion, you merely cut down the amount of fuel. It still takes 6 months to get there because any faster or slower and you are increasing the distance to be traversed. Indeed the one study still has the same travel times I was talking about EVEN WITH THE NUCLEAR ENGINE.

      Dear god, did you actually READ this material, or did you hope that merely siting several sites was going to give you creds?

      There is a damn good reason it hasn't been done up until now: It's damn near impossible.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    31. Re:X-Prize by delong · · Score: 1

      This is only correct if you send everything in one trip.

      The most popular Mars plan calls for two trips - an unmanned cargo trip that plants in situ fuel generator, a nuclear reactor for power, and various other supplies. The manned vehicle and hab follow on the next window.

      There really is no need for any radical technological improvements to get to Mars. It's mostly incremental improvements, most which can be tested on the Moon beforehand, building infrastructure and expertise.

      We might get there within our lifetimes. Don't be a gloomy gus, man! ;)

    32. Re:X-Prize by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 1
      Funny. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I wonder.

      The first site talks about launching a nuclear powered factory to mars to produce methane-based rocket fuel.

      Methane is a LOUSY rocket fuel.

      Does it say it can't be used as a rocket fuel? No, it's not ideal, but it's much easier to produce on Mars, and it has been used as a rocket propellant before. Have you ever heard the saying, the best is the enemy of the good? Sometimes you can use a merely good enough solution rather than wait for a technically superior one. Or do you think we should wait to develop anti-gravity first?

      Well no. The NTP engine was NOT developed to near-flight status. It was never physically constructed, let alone tested. The operation of this device violates most nuclear test ban treaties, and operating one withing the Van Allen belt would eventually contaminate the Earth's surface with nuclear material.

      The only nuclear propulsion system which of necessity would contaminate its surroundings is Orion. But NTP (eg Nerva) uses a nuclear reactor to expel any propellant you like (best with hydrogen though). The propellant in the basic design does get somewhat contaminated, but this can be eliminated using modfied designs. (BTW, that "almost humerous" site you mention is NASA's. Of course, you're smarter than they are ...) And FYI they did build and fire test rigs on the ground which showed that engineering-wise the principle is sound, but did not get a chance to test it in space before the program was cancelled.

      Even with this wonderous (but never actually built) form of propulsion, you merely cut down the amount of fuel. It still takes 6 months to get there because any faster or slower and you are increasing the distance to be traversed. Indeed the one study still has the same travel times I was talking about EVEN WITH THE NUCLEAR ENGINE.

      Um, and so? Is there some law of physics which says a trip has to be made within a certain number of days? Why are you so hung up on the length of the trip? (Yes, I've read your original post about putting the astronauts to sleep and whatnot. I'm not sure why you think these issues are showstoppers when nobody in the field seems to.) And why do you think cutting down on the amount of fuel is a trivial concern? The more fuel you carry, the more fuel you have to carry to push THAT around. The point is to make the spacecraft smaller, lighter and CHEAPER. That's why we haven't gone to Mars, because every proposed mission from von Braun onwards has come with a $500 billion price tag attached to build some massive spacecraft, not because its "damn near impossible". Zubrin's plan can get it done much cheaper.

      BTW, your "because any faster or slower and you are increasing the distance to be traversed" is silly. The standard 260 day travel time is the Hohmann minimum energy transfer orbit. If you burn more energy and go faster, you can indeed get there a lot quicker (you'll just have to burn even more to match orbits when you get there).

      I don't get people like you. We can't do something right now, therefore it's impossible or not worth the attempt. With an ounce of imagination and historical awareness, you'd see how ridiculous this is.

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
    33. Re:X-Prize by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      As a matter of fact the laws of physics DO say the trip takes a certain number of days.

      It doesn't matter how fast your rocket is. The planet is going to be exactly where the planet is going to be. It takes a finite amount of time to traverse the millions of miles between them, and by that time the planet has moved considerably.

      Now when you say "burn even more to match orbits", you are talking about and order of magnetude more.

      Now someone, at some point, has got to heave this beast into Earth orbit. The larger the spacecraft, the more launches required to get the peices aloft, the more complicated the assembly in space. Even using the cheapest expendible rockets, and assuming nothing goes wrong, we are talking about a price tag in the trillions of dollars.

      Doubling the fuel means doubling the weight that has to hoisted to orbit, means doubling the price. I hate to be the one waving dollar signs here, but yes Virginia these things do cost money.

      As far as not getting people like me, did you think for a minute that I don't sit up at night fiddling around with calculations? That I don't dream of some day looking down at the Earth and saying "So Long Suckers"?

      There are so many problems on Earth that need to be solved before we can think about space travel. Because no matter how far we go, we still only have one place to come back to.

      I would rather have a cure for world hunger, or an end to our dependence on fossil fuel long before I want a bunch of fighter jocks to fly to Mars and bring back rocks.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    34. Re:X-Prize by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 1
      I never specified how much energy it would take to match orbits - I just said it would take more. There is nothing magic about space travel that says you can't travel to Mars in a nearly straight line if you want to (and yes Virginia yourself, I am - or was - an astrophysicist, so I'm pretty au fait with the laws of physics). Travel at 99% of the speed of light if you want to (and can, more to the point); it will only take you an hour or two to get there, by which time Mars will have moved only 100,000 km or so. Of course, that is ludicrously unfeasible with current technology. But the point is the faster you can go, the less time it will take - that IS physics. The big problem is stopping, and again you can do that if you don't care about energy or propellant. I will say again, there is nothing magic about the 260 day transfer time (except, of course, that it is the Hohmann minimum energy and that by its nature it matches orbits with Mars at the end); if you expend more energy you can get there faster - eg see here, which posits "sensible increases in propulsive energy" and concludes you can cut travel times by up to 100 days each way. Anyway, this is somewhat irrelevant; the standard Mars Direct plan does NOT depend on nuclear rockets or indeed any new technology or fancy orbits. We can do it right now, and cheaply too. It was just the NASA Reference Mission which talked about that; as I said it's only a version of Mars Direct, one which is more conservative and more expensive. I only linked to it to show that Mars Direct is not some loopy idea that some weirdo sci-fi nuts have come up with; it's valid enough to influence NASA thinking on manned Mars missions, even if they don't (yet) go all the way with Zubrin.

      Doubling the fuel means doubling the weight that has to hoisted to orbit, means doubling the price. I hate to be the one waving dollar signs here, but yes Virginia these things do cost money.

      Well, you were the one who said that the nuclear rocket plan "merely" saved fuel ... But anyway, the whole point of Mars Direct is that it harvests the fuel for the return trip on Mars so you don't have to bring it all the way from Earth. As you point out yourself, there's a huge cost saving right there. (Oh, and I should also point out that Mars Direct tries to minimise the number of launches from Earth; you only need one Saturn V class booster per spacecraft - that is to say three in the limited scenario I originally suggested. True, we don't have any Saturn V class boosters any more (unless you count the Russian Energiya which I don't think has been used in many years) so to be fair development costs for that should probably be included in Mars Direct's costs. It could also be done with smaller boosters and in-orbit assembly, which also brings costs and risks.)

      I don't know what you do at night; all I know about you is what you write, and while your objections are not all irrelevant, they are not the end of the story either. They can be solved, and clever people have suggested clever solutions for them. We need a can-do attitude to get there, not a can't-do one.

      Also, I never said anything about whether going to Mars was more worthwhile than curing world hunger; I was merely responding to your assertion that it would be too difficult to build a factory on Mars to produce propellent. I just wanted to point out that the best plans we have don't require astronauts to do this, and I got flamed for my troubles. But I will point out that we can do both (that is, both go to Mars and cure world hunger or whathaveyou); people always bring this false dichotomy up in relation to space travel but at the same time seem to ignore the massively wasteful spending on military hardware (even if you accept the need for a powerful military, annual cost overruns alone on large projects would fund NASA ten times over - yes, I just plucked that figure from nowhere, but its something like that). Mars Direct m

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
    35. Re:X-Prize by GileadGreene · · Score: 1
      ...properly managing spares, minimizing MTBF and MTTR...

      Actually, you'd probably want to maximize your MTBF (really, your MTTF), and minimize your MTTR (MTBF=MTTF+MTTR). You want to make failures infrequent, and the time required to repair them short, thus maximizing both reliability and availability. Many groups (yes, including the USN) have been working on sparing, reliability, and dependability, for many years. It is much less of a black art than it used to be, and there are a number of well known and commonly used techniques for improving dependability. The problem is that they tend to require large amounts of redundancy, which is not exactly compatible with a mass-constrained space mission.

  4. Space Academy by Manhigh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    explore options to create a university-based virtual space academy" for
    training the next generation technical work force.


    This may be my favorite part. Itll will be difficult to replace the upcoming flood of retirements with so few students majoring in aerospace engineering (emphasis on space) these days. Giving NASA an academy from which to draw potential engineers, astronauts, and technicians would give it a pool of driven young minds.

    Can the Starfleet Academy be far behind? :)

    --
    "Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
    1. Re:Space Academy by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I kinda like the idea. Though at that point you would have to indenture the graduates to the feds, because defense contractors would be picking them off like flies.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Space Academy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I know people who have recently graduated with aerospace degrees, and have not been able to find jobs in their field.

      The problem is not supply of workers, but demand for them. Fooling more students into entering dead-end careers is both useless and deplorable.

    3. Re:Space Academy by joeljkp · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm an undergraduate aerospace student, and I'm working at NASA every other semester. Among friends, this plan is a big deal. I hear that NASA is gearing up to hire lots of young engineers, and from where I'm sitting, I see a lot of 20-somethings in my office. Whether this thing keeps going or runs out of steam will mean work or grad school (or another major) for a lot of current students.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    4. Re:Space Academy by jorex · · Score: 1

      My favorite recommendation of the report as well. At a minimum, this will start the re-inspiration of students and the young (heck, all of us). If done correctly, it'll get more involved and hopefully instill some ownership. The other major finding that goes hand in hand with this is that any space exploration vision must be a national priority (with President, Congress and the American people sharing in the commitment). I don't know how we're going to obtain that in the near term.

    5. Re:Space Academy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fooling more students into entering dead-end careers is both useless and deplorable.

      Lemme guess, you have a PhD in Political Science.

    6. Re:Space Academy by schnarff · · Score: 1

      Except for the fact that this vision calls for extreme privatization of space, which means having these guys picked off by defense contractors is exactly what we want.

    7. Re:Space Academy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering how regulated, indentured, and beholden the aerospace industry is to the government, it's hard to call defense contractors really privatives sometimes.

    8. Re:Space Academy by nyekulturniy · · Score: 1

      The Coast Guard Academy would be a good model then. Entrance to the Academy is strictly by competition, unlike the Big Three academies, which have politicians who make appointments. Graduates have to serve 5 years' active duty with the Coast Guard or another service after graduation, just as in the Big Three.

      --
      Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
    9. Re:Space Academy by mks180 · · Score: 1

      First of all, let me say that I'm a civil servent (CS) at NASA, but not working for NASA. All CS were instructed to read the report today and make recommendations to their bosses. After reading the report, I have to say that I wasn't thrilled with it. It made some good points while others I wouldn't agree with, but more often than not it stated very obious conclusions that you could get just by talking to most NASA engineers for 5 minutes.

      I have to agree with the educational outreach, such as the space academy and more training for teachers. I had plenty of teachers who could teach the material, but didn't know what it is used for in the real world. That's what makes people interested, in my opinion, by showing them how it apples to their lives. There also needs to be a change in attitudes towards failing students who are not doing well. I was a TA in college, and I and other TA's have been told to rescale the grades on homeworks and exams because not enough students were passing. You could blame the bad grades on us and the teachers, but I couldn't force students to come to my office hours if they didn't want to either. But the point is, if you pass students due to education board pressures or just to get them out of your hair, it doesn't do society any good. I had a teacher retire because he was sick of being foreced to make the classes easier over the years; so it's not just my opinion.

      Among other points in the report that I took note of was the retiring of the workforce and need to hire new engineers. Everyone has been talking about the upcoming "brain drain" at NASA. But if the plan (and the current trend) is to contract everything out, there will be no pressing need to hire more engineers. I just heard today that my center has a large number of CS currently not funded by a project for FY06 due to the restructuring and aeronautics program cutbacks. So I don't see this as a problem, but maybe that's just the aeronautics side.

      There were two points that struck me as odd. One was the recommendation that NASA shouldn't be doing work that can be done by industry. I thought that always was the mandate: to do the work that the private sector can't or won't do due to high cost/risk/timescale/lack of facilities/etc. Along the same line, they recommended the formation of an organization to do high risk/high payoff research. To me, that's the point of NASA. It seems to me that that has been lost somewhere along the way.

  5. .."the primary focus".. by burgburgburg · · Score: 1, Troll
    From the CNN article: The nine-member commission said commercialization of space should become "the primary focus" of the country's new space exploration vision. Given the proper encouragement, "an entirely new set of businesses can emerge that will seek profit in space," the report stated.

    So this is just a way of setting up a new venue for outsourcing American jobs.

    Seriously though, it's so good to know that this administration has gotten over that whole "expand the base of human knowledge, explore new worlds to benefit everyone" sort of namby-pamby liberalism and have their priority straight. I suggest we core the moon of all of it's cheese and on to Mars to drill/mine/rip out whatever is valuable there!

  6. Space Property Rights? by ctishman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Am I the only one who's a bit frightened by the concept of Space Property rights? We all knew it was coming of course, but why not something more akin to our handling of the oceans as international waters? Sure, let private corporations control asteroids, artificial satellites and other space debris but keep space itself free for general use by all, or by some international body.

    1. Re:Space Property Rights? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "Sure, let private corporations control asteroids, artificial satellites and other space debris but keep space itself free for general use by all, or by some international body."

      LOL... I'd love to see a government or corporation try to build a wall around a big chunk of space and claim it's theirs.

    2. Re:Space Property Rights? by ctishman · · Score: 1

      A wall? How 11th century. Try long-range weapons and a pack of rabid lawyers. Space exploration (at least right now) depends upon funding from Earth. Lawyers can cut that funding off, forcing a return home.

    3. Re:Space Property Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is until colonies can be created that are self-sustaining.

      It's no longer a matter of if "colonies can be created that are self-sustaining" but when.

    4. Re:Space Property Rights? by code_rage · · Score: 1

      Good question. At this point, I think the advantages of property rights may outweigh any theoretical disadvantages. As long as we take the attitude that you can only own what you can actually occupy and make use of, it's hard for me to imagine what there would be to fight over. And unlike the oceans, there is no prospect of "overfishing".

      Can you think of what the problems might be?

    5. Re:Space Property Rights? by justanyone · · Score: 1
      Ocean Property rights are helping now in the form of Marine Wildlife Sanctuaries, especially in Australia with their Great Barrier Reef.

      The oceans are now ruled in a really COMMUNIST way - take what you want, everybody owns it together (thus no one has incentive to guard it).

      It's killing ocean habitats around the world, leading to massive overfishing in some otherwise very, very fertile waters, and depriving us (as consumers) the opportunity of eating responsibly "farmed" fish (be that farm an area of ocean or a netted-off section somewhere, or a carefully monitored (for rogue fishing vessels) area of ocean.

      How do we farm land? Land isn't free. Ocean shouldn't be either; Areas of ocean should be owned by countries and corporations for their long-term good, with laws about behavior in them (preserving species and diversity), and incentives to behave (long-term) responsibly in the Long term.

      SPACE SHOULD BE LIKEWISE OWNED. All property should be owned or it will NOT be protected. If that ownership is national as a Park or Nature Preserve (specific areas of the moon, such as Apollo landing sites come to mind), great. If it is private, as is a mine or region (such as someone owning mining rights to Callisto), great.

      The incentive in the land rush across the U.S. in the 1800's was to get the land and use it for commercial purposes. The first step in any market-based economic system is to establish property rights so people will make capital investments that improve the property. That kind of capital investment applies in space - an outpost or scientific instrumentation & observation station is the kind of thing that can earn people long-term dividends as the economy there grows.

      If I make a mining claim on the moon, no one cares.
      If I spend money to go there on an exploration, find Gold, Platinum, or (even better yet) water, and want exclusive rights to mine it, I'm hosed. The next bozo nation that comes along can grab my claim and I'm out the exploration costs, which is a huge deal.
      • Abolish the Outer Space Treaty. Property rights everywhere make solid ecological and financial sense.
      • Pass laws allowing ownership of regions of offshore areas inside the 50-mile exclusion zone
      • Pass UN resolutions allowing for national ownership of regions of open ocean for purposes of wildlife conservation, regardless of proximity to landmass, so fish populations can regrow and be managed by supervised / regulated corporations.

      Maybe this seems extreme, but I want reef fish to be around for my grandchildren (and I'm young) and I'm not confident that the system we have with killing off vast areas of ocean bottom with dragline/dragnet fishing won't leave us a dead, empty, uninteresting set of Earth oceans.

      -- Kevin J. Rice

    6. Re:Space Property Rights? by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Interesting
      > Am I the only one who's a bit frightened by the concept of Space Property rights? We all knew it was coming of course, but why not something more akin to our handling of the oceans as international waters? Sure, let private corporations control asteroids, artificial satellites and other space debris but keep space itself free for general use by all, or by some international body.

      Actually, that's basically what "Space Property Rights" means.

      Currently, there are no property rights in space (or more accurately, on other worlds). By treaty, bodies in outer space are "governed" rather like Antarctica -- no government can claim the Moon for itself and issue deeds to explorers. Likewise, no private citizen can land on the Moon and claim it for himself or herself.

      In the case of Antarctica, maybe that's a good thing - it's a nice lab, but it's pretty small and can't sustain a tourism industry.

      In the case of the Moon, Mars, and (collectively) the asteroids - they're big enough that it'll take so damn long to "pave over 'em" or otherwise "despoil" their "natural" state, that scientific research wouldn't be jeopardized by private ownership of 'em.

      Without space property rights, there can be no return on investment for the private sector. Without the private sector's involvement, the only entities doing space exploration, tourism, industrialization or colonization, will be governments. Problem is, governments have "better" things to do than establish offworld colonies. Space exploration doesn't help a government stay in power, and unsurprisingly, governments tend not to give a fuck about it except insofar as to use space programmes to spread the pork around.

      A radical proposal:

      "The first person to land on Mars, and to live there some specified minimum duration (such as a year), and to return alive owns the entire Red Planet."

      - From Mars: Who Should Own It

      With space property rights -- whether in the radical form above, or by following the more traditional "Homesteading" model in which government opened up the West by taking ownership of the land for the express purpose of giving it away to anyone who could survive there long enough -- we're much more likely to make it off this mudball.

    7. Re:Space Property Rights? by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      Um, I seriously doubt anyone is talking about owning *space* itself. I get the impression "space property rights" refers to property on the Moon, on Mars, on asteroids, etc. I should think the situation would develop analagously to "international waters"--you have certain rights over space bordering on your territories, but not over "open space" in general.

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    8. Re:Space Property Rights? by johannesg · · Score: 1
      "The first person to land on Mars, and to live there some specified minimum duration (such as a year), and to return alive owns the entire Red Planet."

      That's a _great_ idea! This will guarantee that the whole planet will turn into a big death-match arena, giving all us Earth-dwellers plenty of entertainment!

    9. Re:Space Property Rights? by dogbertsd · · Score: 1

      "The first person to land on Mars, and to live there some specified minimum duration (such as a year), and to return alive owns the entire Red Planet."

      I grok that proposal.

    10. Re:Space Property Rights? by SB5 · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... That sounds wrong, that sounds more like an ANARCHIST way...

      Communism is about everyone getting a fair share of the pie. With the ocean it is not like that. A giant freighter with nets will take more in than a small two man craft...

      With Anarchism, everyone owns everything, as long as you hold control over it. This holds well for the ocean because you can hold control over pieces of ocean and they are yours as long you can hold on to them.

      --
      If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
      it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
    11. Re:Space Property Rights? by justanyone · · Score: 1

      "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

      Communism in practice is a village commons that everyone owns, so no one owns it. This leads to everyone leaving their trash there, or exploiting it as much as possible. This isn't a problem with inexhaustable supplies, but the Central Problem of Economics is "Limited supplies being distributed to infinite wants".

      My advocacy is simply for standard property rights laws, as exist now governing land, to be applied to oceanic areas as well as Space.

      Historical precedent is that when a new island is found, someone or some government claims it. That claim takes precedent unless someone else comes in and lives on the land, or can make counterclaim to have other historical rights to it (it's in the center of an area they traditionally control, for instance). Whichever party invests the most time, effort, and/or capital in the land has a greater claim to it, thought this claim must be adjudicated and settled by a legal process or international negotiation (or war).

      Such is the case with the Asteroid EROS. The legal arguments are fascinating. Link is here to the Eros Project.

      -- Kevin

    12. Re:Space Property Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, isn't there some guy who (twisting the formal property rights) claims to own all land in the solar system, and has even conned some people into buying land in other planets? I am pretty sure I saw something like that on television...

    13. Re:Space Property Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine, so how do you persuade the world to allow private rights, especially when it's only the largest or richest nations that will be able to make the trip?

      Who decides what nations get to give away land, and how much?

      If you think it would be decided by the first to get there, the first being the USA, what would you do if China got there first instead? Would the US accept that? Or would you have an interplanetary war starting? If so would it come under the auspices of the UN to try to get the parties talking?

      Allowing private property rights on other worlds as a spur to colonisation sounds good until you look into what would be required *politically* to do it. Even then you mightn't get true colonisation; the result could be like say many mining towns here in the .au outback that will only exist as long as an ore body holds out. It hasn't led to generalised settlement of the arid parts of Australia and won't, in a far less harsh environment than Mars.

    14. Re:Space Property Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      radical proposal:

      "The first person to land on Mars, and to live there some specified minimum duration (such as a year), and to return alive owns the entire Red Planet."
      - From Mars: Who Should Own It

      Links to a Randroid site. Might have known...

    15. Re:Space Property Rights? by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 1

      I'm trully suprised that out of all of slashdot reading this your the only one to say that or somthing simular.
      I don't know whether to respect them for 'getting it' and avoiding redundancy (doubt it, you're post hasn't been moded up), or to shocked NO ONE else has mananged to belong to the group that a)read stranger, b) read this thread, and c) connected the two.
      Of course my perspective COULD be off. For clue as to why see my nick.

      Mycroft

      --
      https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
  7. Fund Raising by Paulrothrock · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If NASA's running low on cash, here are two ideas that might be good ways to get money.

    1) A national lottery. Opportunity and Spirit cost (individually) $400 million. A nationwide lottery would be able to raise this much money, and would excite people. They would know that their money is going to put something on another planet.

    2) A reality TV show about astronaut candidates. This long-running series, run by one of the major networks, would give a human face and personality to space flight. I'm not talking about people being voted off or anything stupid like that, but an unvarnished look at how astronauts are trained and selected. NASA could get the license from a network and make a few million bucks and improve its image.

    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    1. Re:Fund Raising by kognate · · Score: 1

      This has got to be one of the best ideas I've seen todate. The normal budget of a high-flying reality TV show isn't high enough to meet the costs, but a
      national lottery, with instant tickets for different programs are just the market solutions that the current administration should look at. Think of it this way, you pay out 10% of intake, with another 10% going to program administration (no marketing, lotto doesn't need much marketing). That leaves 80
      cents on the dollar going to the program that each ticket represents.

      People would be able to play the lottery and not
      feel stupid AND since you would know exactly how much you took in, you'd know which programs were more interesting to the public.

    2. Re:Fund Raising by mwheeler01 · · Score: 1

      A national lottery would be unprecedented and somewhat illegal without the approval of each state. For instance Powerball isn't available in a lot of states because of their gambling laws. Revenue from state lotteries often go towards education but much of the time it is reappropriated later and added to the states tax revenue.

      A government partnership with a network to do a television show is interesting to say the least. It's something that I would watch and would probably increase public support, which would be more important than fund raising in my opinion.

      --
      Pretty widgets? What pretty widgets?
    3. Re:Fund Raising by Cat_Byte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I love the idea but Ann Richards said the same thing for funding schools to get the lottery in Texas. Now we're trying to find ways to fund schools again and not a penny goes to schools from the lottery. When state controls the lottery they $$ never goes where they say it will. Its been that way in every state unfortunately. The idea is awesome. The people who carry out the idea are...well....lawyers & politicians.

      --
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
    4. Re:Fund Raising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A reality TV show about astronaut candidates. This long-running series, run by one of the major networks, would give a human face and personality to space flight.

      Reality TV maintains its popularity by marketing conflict between people. That's the last thing you want with astronauts that must live for extended periods in confined spaces. The show would have a niche audience and would be unlikely to raise enough money to be useful.

    5. Re:Fund Raising by mhmealling · · Score: 1

      Why the assumption that this has to be a way to fund NASA? If it can raise money let someone do it as a business opportunity. Shouldn't the long term goal be an entire economic system in space based on free enterprise and competition instead of a program that's only run by NASA? If that's the case why are we working so hard to give money to NASA?

    6. Re:Fund Raising by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      Why fund DARPA? For the same reason you fund NASA: There are benefits to this kind of research that lead to profitable things, but there's no profit in just pure research, especially at the esoteric levels that NASA and DARPA are operating on.

      Ideally, we'd just be relying on NASA for advanced research and safety regulations akin to the FAA. I mean, it's not like we get all of our food and medicine from the FDA, right?

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    7. Re:Fund Raising by nate1138 · · Score: 1

      Actually, one state did it right. Georgia. The Hope scholarship (a free college ride for any Georgia student that meets academic minimums) has been very successful. The only real problem that they have had is with students dropping/failing out of college.

      --
      Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
    8. Re:Fund Raising by cybercuzco · · Score: 1

      Actually in MN lottery money goes to preserve the enviroinment, and thats where it actually goes.

      --

    9. Re:Fund Raising by nyekulturniy · · Score: 1

      The last reality show that dealt with pilot candidates didn't last a month, IIRC.

      --
      Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
  8. A view from a 60's relic by 14erCleaner · · Score: 5, Insightful
    You know, back when I was a kid (in the 60's, during the Gemini/Apollo era), I thought space was the coolest thing ever. It seemed a sure thing, and a good thing, that we'd be colonizing other planets within a few years.

    Of course, it didn't happen. It turns out that just hoisting enough life-support for a person for a few days into orbit costs more than most people earn in their lifetimes. The benefits of going to the moon, building the space station, and other manned ventures have turned out to be in two areas:

    * Spinoff technologies

    * Psychological side-effects

    That is, none of the actual benefits of space travel have come from the space part, more from the preparation and the coolness factor. The real practical advantages have all come from unmanned craft, mostly communication satellites.

    So, why don't we get more excited and/or spend more money on terrestrial exploration? There is better mapping of Venus than there is of the ocean floor these days.

    I'm not trying to denigrate anybody's dreams or anything, and I recognize the value of science for its own sake, but maybe blowing another $100 billion on a one-time put-a-guy-on-Mars mission isn't really a good idea. Let's try to find some more practical way to spend our budget surplus (*cough*). How about curing diseases, for example? Bill Gates has personally increased the funding for research in diseases like malaria by a significant factor; why can't our government fund this kind of stuff more?

    Pardon my grumblings....I'm just disillusioned in my old age. (where's my space ship, dammit! :)

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
    1. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Paulrothrock · · Score: 3, Insightful
      why can't our government fund this kind of stuff more?

      The short answer is "Because the rich folks don't want to pay a lot of taxes."

      The top tax bracket (for >$400,000) was 91% in the 50s and 60s, and right now it's only 39.6%. Also, the number of brackets has been decreased, so they can't raise taxes without affecting more and more people.

      Link

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:A view from a 60's relic by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      You bring up an excellent point. I for one can't figure out why the DOD can piss away 100 million on plane tickets while NASA is looking to ebay for spare parts.

      Frankly who on Earth are we defending ourselves against with Nuclear Weapons? Sure there is deterrent, but I think having enough weapons in our inventory to obliterate the civilized world 8 or 9 times is enough at this point. A missile delivery system that can drop 7 warheads on 7 different targets in 45 minutes seems like it'll due for the time being. And about the only foe our fighter craft face in the sky seems to be mechanical failure.

      We spend to much money developing weapon systems. We don't spend nearly enough developing the troops to actually use them. Nor do we spend enough educating the millions of kids that might some day be called to replace them.

      We just aren't spending money where it does any good. It really doesn't matter if we are technologically superior. It's training that makes the difference in the battlefield. It's education and experience that makes a difference in the marketplace. Sure it ain't glamorous, but these things are cheap at twice the price.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    3. Re:A view from a 60's relic by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "The benefits of going to the moon, building the space station, and other manned ventures have turned out to be in two areas:

      * Spinoff technologies "

      And the 'spinoffs' are highly over-rated too.

    4. Re:A view from a 60's relic by drkhwk · · Score: 1

      The top tax bracket (for >$400,000) was 91% in the 50s and 60s, and right now it's only 39.6%.

      I believe the top bracket is only 35% after the Bush tax cuts.

    5. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected. (The original page I found was citing old data. The one I linked to has the correct information.)

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    6. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Rei · · Score: 1

      > And about the only foe our fighter craft face in the sky seems to be mechanical failure

      I dunno... in Afghanistan and Iraq, our UAVs were downed like flies. Although I agree completely with your point. :)

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    7. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Cat_Byte · · Score: 1
      You mean like cell phones, semiconductor cubing, hubble scientific facts found, advanced keyboards, Customer Service Software, Database Management System, Laser Surveying, Aircraft controls, Lightweight Compact Disc, Expert System Software, Microcomputers, Design Graphics, scratch resistant lenses, Dustbuster, shock-absorbing helmets, home security systems, smoke detectors, flat panel televisions, high-density batteries, trash compactors, food packaging and freeze-dried technology, cool sportswear, sports bras, hair styling appliances, fogless ski goggles, self-adjusting sunglasses, composite golf clubs, hang gliders, art preservation, and quartz crystal timing equipment.

      I mean come on....sports bras and golf ball aerodynamics....what would the world be without it? Source: here

      --
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
    8. Re:A view from a 60's relic by BigDumbAnimal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree in principle with some of what you are saying, but we are not actually developing and building Nuclear Weapons at this point. At SRS in South Carolina, clean up and maintance is the primary job, but no significant money is spent on Nuclear weapons.

      Yes, more money should be spent on troops (primarily increasing pay so people might actually consider the military as an alternative to private enterprise), but throwing more money at Education has never worked. BOE's can waste more money faster than any other org.

    9. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Erwos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "We spend to much money developing weapon systems. We don't spend nearly enough developing the troops to actually use them."

      Is that some kind of joke? Or are you not living in the US?

      The US Air Force spend _2 million dollars_ per pilot training them - and that figure is at least 10 years old, so G-d knows what we spend these days. If that's not a significant investment, I don't know what is.

      The US Army also has a pretty damned good training program for fighting wars. Regardless of whether going to Iraq was right or wrong, the US Army annihilated the Iraqi army with startling speed. Good training costs money, ergo, I would be somewhat surprised to hear we cheap out on battlefield training.

      IOW, you're right, but the US military is obviously doing a pretty good job of training soldiers in weapon system usage. Maybe we ought to put some money into Civil Affairs training, but that wasn't your thesis as far as I can tell.

      It's always amazed me that people aren't more aware of the educational institutions that are directly affiliated with the Department of Defense, too.

      -Erwos

      --
      Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
    10. Re:A view from a 60's relic by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      If your list wasn't almost entirely bogus, it might actually prove something. The simple fact is that almost every claim of 'space spinoffs' turns out to be untrue, or something so trivial that it can't even come close to compensating for the hundreds of billions of dollars spent flying people into space.

      Are you really claiming, for example, that the CD was invented by NASA!?!?!

    11. Re:A view from a 60's relic by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      You didn't mention patents, but I have an interested tidbit to add about that. People seem to like to quote a drop-off (or lack of) NASA patents. Here at NASA Langley, that was due to a policy stating "you can only file for a patent if your invention has real commercial possibilities". Why? Filing for patents is damn expensive.

      Just this year, I believe, they changed the rule back to "you can file for a patent if your invention has some of of aerospace applicability." So we should start seeing an uptick (at least from Langley).

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    12. Re:A view from a 60's relic by demachina · · Score: 1

      "blowing another $100 billion on a one-time put-a-guy-on-Mars mission isn't really a good idea."

      A "one-time put-a-guy-on-Mars" is a complete waste of time and money, a base on the moon isn't much better since its gravity is to low and no atmosphere.

      Putting a permanent colony on Mars would be priceless. It would dramatically alter most of humankind's horizon, give us a second biosphere, and hopefully give us a fresh start free of many of the encumbrances and inertia of societies on Earth. It would also almost certainly drive advances in a lot of fields including energy, biology, geology, manufacturing and terraforming.

      If you accomplished that we would almost certainly become a space faring race and we will have to become that before we exhaust Earth's resources.

      --
      @de_machina
    13. Re:A view from a 60's relic by adavies42 · · Score: 1
      Bill Gates has personally increased the funding for research in diseases like malaria by a significant factor; why can't our government fund this kind of stuff more?

      <rant>We wouldn't *need* to cure malaria if your generation hadn't read Rachel Carson's stupid book and banned DDT. Guess which African country doesn't have a malaria problem? South Africa, the one that tells the UN to stick their DDT rules where the sun don't shine.</rant>

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    14. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      If you accomplished that we would almost certainly become a space faring race and we will have to become that before we exhaust Earth's resources.


      To "become a spacefaring race" you need to be able to get somewhere out of the solar system in less than a human lifetime. Any other manned space trips, from man-on-the-moon, through Lunar colonies and Man on mars to a big Martian terraforming project is just dick-waving on a large scale.

      Two planets is not much different from one planet. To make a real difference, you need the potential for many planets.

    15. Re:A view from a 60's relic by wronkiew · · Score: 1
      That is, none of the actual benefits of space travel have come from the space part, more from the preparation and the coolness factor.

      This is incorrect. The counterexample is that the discoveries made by sending humans into space in the 1960s allow us now to build those satellites. The fact that those discoveries could today be made by robots in no way diminishes the importance of the early accomplishments in human space flight.

    16. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Read something interesting about DDT the other day...it was designed to be sprayed on walls. Do it once, mosquitos die when they land on the walls, and one spray will last for months.

      Hence, it was purposely designed to be persistent, not to degrade...and to be used in small quantities.

      The reason we had trouble is that farmers in the U.S. started using it in other ways, instead of how it was designed to be used...spraying repeatedly, in large quantities. The results were predictable, and the final result was the banning of DDT even for its original usage...which, as you say, would have saved many lives.

    17. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would enjoy reading Zubrin's A Case For Mars. Google for that and "Mars Direct"...plan is simple, $20 billion to get to Mars and stay for a couple years, and a couple billion a year to keep doing it.

      Brief summary: You need two Saturn V sized rockets. A Shuttle converted to a heavy-lift configuration would do. First is unmanned, goes to Mars with a return vehicle, small nuclear reactor, and a bit of hydrogen. A simple process makes methane fuel from the Martian atmosphere. Not having to carry your return fuel is a *huge* savings. Once you have your return vehicle safely landed and fueled-up, you send your crew in the second rocket. It's a 6-month trip, and to keep them healthy you tether the vehicle to your lifter top stage with a 1000-foot cable, and spin. They have a methane-fueled rover with them, and can get to the return vehicle if they land within 1000 miles. They keep using the rover for explorations, during their 2-year stay.

      No space station, orbital construction, or moonbase...he calls all that the "Battlestar Galactica plan"...just two rockets. $20 billion assumes government operation, he figures private industry could do it for $6 billion. NASA scaled up a bit and figured on fifty. Most of the money goes into initial development, you can keep on doing it for a lot less, and every time you're leaving another structure on Mars, starting to build up a sizeable base.

      Of course, the Bush administration ignored all this, and went for the trillion-dollar Battlestar plan.

    18. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Octorian · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that taxes are too low for the rich. The problem is that there are enough loopholes, that the super rich get out of paying any real taxes in the first place. Clost those loopholes, and while it may hurt the banking industry of the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands, the IRS would rake in a heck of a lot more dough.

    19. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Octorian · · Score: 1

      Yeah, probably because a low and slow flying UAV is a heck of a lot more vulnerable to an AK-47 than an F-16 :-)

    20. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Octorian · · Score: 1

      I think the real problem we face right now is that while our military is VERY good at winning the war, they're really not up to the task of occupying the territory. Unless we come up with some fantastical new technology for this, it probably means that we need a heck of a lot more troops on the ground.

    21. Re:A view from a 60's relic by chasm!killer · · Score: 1

      And even more impressive is that the social security tax (no longer paid into a trust fund literally) is providing nearly as much money to the government as the income tax . See the White House budget numbers , Table S-10.

      It estimates that the 2004 receipts from individual income taxes are going to be $765.4 billion and from social security taxes, $732.4 billion.

      We'll also borrow $521 billion in 2004 (based on the known bad HHS estimate of the drug benefit, so this is really lowball). And everything else (estate taxes, cigarette taxes, gasoline taxes, corporate income taxes, park fees, 9/11 fees for air travelers, customs fees, etc.) bring in the remaining $300 billion.

      I am really depressed, when I see these numbers, and despair of any realistic funding for the forseeable future.

      --
      -- Ancient (IBM 1620 and Atari 400) Programmer
    22. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ocupation has always been the hardest thing about invasions.

    23. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Cat_Byte · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming. I'm quoting the link I gave. It was all cut & paste.

      --
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
    24. Re:A view from a 60's relic by demachina · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. That is the definition of an interstellar space faring race. There is plenty of stuff in this solar system to keep us busy for at least a century, Mars, moons of Saturn and Jupiter, asteroid mining, etc.

      --
      @de_machina
    25. Re:A view from a 60's relic by hcuar · · Score: 1

      Rich or not... Wouldn't you be pissed to pay 91% tax? Geesh.

    26. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, hey, you saw it on the internet, so it must be true, right?

    27. Re:A view from a 60's relic by jtosburn · · Score: 1

      I found that stat to be astounding so I took a quick look at the link you provided. While the numbers appear to be factually correct, they are only one piece of the taxation pie: income tax.

      Another chart on that site concludes that "Average Effective Income Tax Rates on Households with the Highest Incomes Have Risen Disproportionately Since 1983".

      And this chart leads with " In 1999, the Top 10% of Households by Income Paid 66% of the Federal Income Tax".

      So your presentation of one pieces of a larger, more complex puzzle as being *the answer* either shows your biases or a desire for easy answers.

    28. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      In 2003, the US military funding increased by $42 billion. This is almost three times as much as the total annual NASA budget, and that was just the increase! If we want to spend our resources on something good, we as a species might as well put down our weapons right now and realize it's an enormous waste of time, money, resources and last but certainly not the least, human lives. If everyone did it at the same time and if we could learn how to live in peace, we would have buttloads of resources to spend on eradicating diseases, decreasing the gap between the billionaires and the homeless starving child, to educate everyone, and develop new, more environmentally friendly technology... and yes, colonize space.

      We shouldn't go back to the Moon and on to Mars if we're going there and then return back home. If we're going, it should be to stay there. The colonies must be as selfsustained as possible. We can't ship food to Mars all the time. I believe that an aggressive approach to space exploration and science in general is the way to go. Actually, it's one of the few aggressive attitudes I support. Why can't humankind do anything right? You're older than me so you have experienced more than I have, but I am seriously getting depressed already by the news reports we see everyday. Let's prove to ourselves that we're better than that!

    29. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      Since 1983. What about before that. How far have they fallen before 1983?

      And how much did top 10% pay in 89? 79? 69? 59? 49?

      I cited that data because it had points during the Space Race. Could you provide data from that period to back up your claims?

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    30. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't find anything about lighter weight CDs, but going to an actual NASA site I did find these:

      Cordless Power Tools:
      http://technology.nasa.gov/Success_Story_D etail.cf m?PKEY=600218&category=Success%20Stories

      Sports Bras: (Believe it or not, it's true.)
      http://technology.nasa.gov/Success_Story_D etail.cf m?PKEY=600220&category=Success%20Stories

      General Purpose Medical Telemetry:
      http://technology.nasa.gov/Success_Sto ry_Detail.cf m?PKEY=2081&category=Success%20Stories

      Computer Simulations:
      http://technology.nasa.gov/Success_S tory_Detail.cf m?PKEY=1000208&category=Success%20Stories

      Imaging Software:
      http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2004/ma y/HQ_04156_ software.html

      There are many more there as well, check it out if you are so inclined....

    31. Re:A view from a 60's relic by captainClassLoader · · Score: 1

      An AC says:

      They have a methane-fueled rover with them, and can get to the return vehicle if they land within 1000 miles.

      Yeah, and that ought to work just fine unless the return vehicle is eaten to the ground by hordes of ravenous Martian beetles!

      --
      "The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
    32. Re:A view from a 60's relic by ripsnorta · · Score: 1
      I'd agree with you except for one thing.

      There aren't really that many super rich around. Most of the stats I've seen indicate that only a tiny few percent of the population earn huge incomes. Even if you closed the loopholes and forced the mega rich to pay their share, the middle class would still be responsible for most of the nations tax receipts. I believe it follows the classic bell curve with the poor and the rich contributing the least, and the middle class contributing the most.

      But, I do agree with you. The wealthy should pay their share.

      --

      Hollywood: The place good stories go to die.

    33. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      easy deployable energy shields
      inflatable walls
      harry potter

    34. Re:A view from a 60's relic by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1
      the discoveries made by sending humans into space in the 1960s allow us now to build those satellites

      Actually, the rocket technology that launches satellites was probably driven more by nuclear war preparations than by the manned spaceflight program. We don't use Saturn V's to launch satellites. We actually don't even use the shuttle for that much. Mostly they're launched on medium-sized disposable rockets like Ariane, Delta, Titan, and so on.

      --
      Have you read my blog lately?
    35. Re:A view from a 60's relic by isorox · · Score: 1

      I'd wager with the 50s limits a millionaire would pay less tax then someone on $200k. The problem is the loopholes that rich people can exploit with expensibe accountants

    36. Re:A view from a 60's relic by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1
      To "become a spacefaring race" you need to be able to get somewhere out of the solar system in less than a human lifetime.

      Precisely. And we can't do that, not for a trillion dollars. Space is a really big, empty, unfriendly place, and there isn't much there that we can really use, except in our imaginations.

      Mars will be harder to live on than the bottom of the ocean, and there's arguably less practical benefit from the Mars base, even in the long run. What are we going to do, start importing food from Mars?

      Asteroid mining sounds kind of cool, until you calculate what it will cost to bring the stuff back to earth (or whereever the consumers are). We can't just drop it on their heads, it has to be delivered somehow, and the shipping costs will be (ahem) astronomical.

      Again, I think that manned space travel has been a big bust. It has great gee-whiz appeal, but no demonstrated utility to human lives otherwise.

      --
      Have you read my blog lately?
    37. Re:A view from a 60's relic by pfdietz · · Score: 1

      That list shows the usual mode of operation of spinoff claims. NASA produced one example of something, therefore all examples of that thing are spinoffs and are due to NASA.

      NASA produced cordless tools for Apollo, for example. They were completely unsuitable for use on Earth (using nonrechargable batteries containing large amounts of silver). Computer simulations existed long before NASA did. And imaging software has more to do with spy satellites than NASA.

    38. Re:A view from a 60's relic by jtosburn · · Score: 1

      Woah there!

      what claims did I make? Other than that you overstated one item of data, I made NO CLAIMS.

      I'm no apolgist for the right, just looking for facts.

      Take a DEEP BREATH and RELAX!

    39. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Erwos · · Score: 1

      Certainly true, and it's why I mentioned Civil Affairs training needing to become more of a priority - in a day and age of peace-keeping missions (not to imply Iraqi Freedom was one!), interacting with civilians takes on an extremely important role. Better interactions with civilians means less insurgency.

      The simple fact, though, is that the US Army is doing an OK job of putting down the insurgency in Iraq. Are they hitting a home run? No. But it's very difficult to do that against a guerilla force without doing rather nasty things to the civilian populace. A standard military force is obviously easier to pin down and annihilate.

      Yeah, the Army is taking casualties. But, compared to most other conflicts (Vietnam comes to mind), the rate has been extremely low, and is probably sustainable without a draft. The thing which is needed most at this point is an exit _strategy_ (not necessarily a specific date) by the political administration. That was one of the big issues with 'nam, and I'd prefer it not repeated for this conflict.

      The way I see it, the administration's big task is to NOT abandon the country before it's ready to stand on its own in a relatively democratic fashion. Pulling out now is only going to create yet another radical, violent Islamic theocracy, and that's not really a good plan for the world or the US. That's true whether Kerry or Bush wins the next election - whomever it is needs to see this thing through regardless of the cost.

      When it comes to handling policy with regards to Iraq, the most important thing is to not screw up the end game scenario. If we clean this mess up properly, it will do a lot (well, some) to restore the US reputation around the world. I often feel like we shouldn't have gotten involved in Iraq, but now that we are, it's time to do things right.

      (And, for the record, I have no idea whether either Kerry or Bush would do that.)

      -Erwos

      --
      Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
    40. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That list shows the usual mode of operation of spinoff claims. NASA produced one example of something, therefore all examples of that thing are spinoffs and are due to NASA.

      They are related in the same way all steam engines and steam boilers are related to the first useful steam engines.

      NASA produced cordless tools for Apollo, for example. They were completely unsuitable for use on Earth (using nonrechargable batteries containing large amounts of silver). Computer simulations existed long before NASA did. And imaging software has more to do with spy satellites than NASA.

      To continue my point above, the first actual use for steam engines was removing water from mine shafts, and they were very different than later versions for transportation or power generation. However, they are still thought of as a Good Thing, mainly because they lead to other Good Things.

      I understand and share the geekish tendence to disdain authority. Honestly though I think most on /. let it shape their view of reality a little too much.

    41. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the last line again. It was a joke.

    42. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yeah - Bill Gates would only make something like $1 billion a year then - how could he ever afford his Mortgage payment...

      Once you're making more than 7 figures you really don't need any additional income to have an incentive to work. Face it - most people with $50 million in the bank wouldn't work at all - so the people who do aren't motivated by their take home pay.

      I think that the tax brackets should be graduated. Let people make a million a year with only 40% taxes. But if you make $10 million then go ahead and ratchet it up to 90%...

    43. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Except that we're not talking about raising taxes for the top 10% of households. If you make more than about $40-50k you're probably in that group. We're talking about raising taxes on the top 0.1% of households. The ones making $10M and up...

      Raising taxes on people making $50k with kids is definitely a hardship. Raising taxes on somebody making $300k is not - at least not reasonable taxes. Once you're making $10M or more a year you can tax at 90+% and they'd still have an obscene standard of living.

    44. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I think that UAV investment is a good idea, but one reason that they are shot down frequently is that they are sent on very ambitious missions.

      Suppose you think there is a SAM site in a given region.

      Option 1 - Just don't fly over that region.

      Option 2 - Send in recon and find it, then use cruise missles or other standoff attacks to take it out.

      Back in the 80s we would just do #1. Now we can do #2. And so a few UAVs get shot down in the process, but that is why they are unmanned.

      UAVs are sent in harm's way precisely because they can be...

    45. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      No army has historically been good at occupying territory. The only thing that sort-of-works is being inhumane.

      If people want you there, you'll have no trouble (allied invasion of France). If people don't want you there you'll have trouble (examples include probably every colony ever held by an empire). The allied occupation of Germany and Japan was fairly short. And at the end of WWII the attitude among the USA/Europe was that if a village of Germans gave you a hard time the best solution was probably just to shoot them all. Such an act probably wouldn't even make the nightly news.

      From my view of history the only way to occupy a territory is to do it for a short time and to use an iron fist. Aggression should be directed at the leaders and not at the general population. Small bands of loyalists should be put down brutally. The general population shouldn't be concerned that they'll get mis-identified as loyalists. However, your goal has to be to effect a regime change and then get out of there.

      In ancient times that was the SOP. If you took over a country you surrounded a city, and then told hte population that if they opened the gates you'll simply execute the leaders, install a governor, and that in the future they'd pay taxes to you instead of whatever dictator was previously oppressing them. The gates got opened pretty quickly (the alternative was that the city would be razed to the ground and not a soul would live - except the token few who would be sent out to proclaim the news of what happens to those who get in the way).

      None of this would fly today - we're too civilized for all that. Personally - I'm glad this is the case - those cultures were nothing more than barbaric. However, I'm not under the delusion that you can simply expect to invade a country and occupy it without hassle.

      My guess is that the way to have handled Iraq would have been to get in there and then get out in a month or so. People would still be in the flying US flags rather than burning them mode when we left. If you want leave small teams to check for WMD's. But it should be hard for an Iraqi to spot an American - they shouldn't be standing on every street corner with a gun.

    46. Re:A view from a 60's relic by wronkiew · · Score: 1

      It is fair to say that rockets that launch satellites are not based on manned spacecraft. The discoveries I was referring to, however, were made by the astronauts themselves in space. How would you build a satellite if you didn't know how many meteoroids it would hit while it was in orbit? How would you maneuver a satellite in orbit if you did not understand the physical properties of outer space? The human space flights of the 1960s provided important information about the environment of space. This information would be easy to collect by robotic microsatellites today, but back then it was a job for humans.

    47. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Nerdus_Maximus · · Score: 1

      While definitely an important therefore emotional issues, I have found this thread quite interesting for one simple reason (no drum roll, just a curious thought, definitely very low on the "profound meter") .... Does there exist an objective history of the US Income Tax including sample tax returns for representative major demographic group for each decade? There must be a passionate, scholarly US Income Tax Historian or group out there, if for no other reason to keep the facts (at least, the data) straight.

      --
      Nerdus Maximus (mostly a wannabe, but you have to have goals)
    48. Re:A view from a 60's relic by jtosburn · · Score: 1

      I'd love to find just such a resource. All the partisan rhetoric is exhausting, and in the absence of objectivity, most people go with what feels right to them. IOW whatever explanation blames the people that they already don't like, that's the one they latch onto and defend fervently.

      If you ever find that scholary, objective report of US income tax history, please post!

    49. Re:A view from a 60's relic by Nerdus_Maximus · · Score: 1

      Will do ... upon further reflection and reading your post... I should have written. "dispassionate & objective history with a but passion for fact and accuracy" An interesting metric would be to show the weight of the US Tax Code if printed for each year since its Modern era inception beginning with the 16th Amendment in 1913 making the income tax permanent. "Your tax returns through the decades" doesn't sound like a thriller, but it could be worth an interesting monograph. Cheers,

      --
      Nerdus Maximus (mostly a wannabe, but you have to have goals)
  9. You misread: by burgburgburg · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    Mars Needs Guitars

    Simple mistake.

  10. Relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Finally, the Commission's report failed to address the biggest political problem our human spaceflight program faces: a lack of relevancy to ordinary people

    As if the airplane was immediately relevant to everyone the day after the wright brothers had a successfull flight?

    1. Re:Relevance by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "As if the airplane was immediately relevant to everyone the day after the wright brothers had a successfull flight?"

      Uh, you may not have noticed, but it's now nearly fifty years since the space equivalent of the 'Wright Flyer', and space is still not relevant to ordinary people. Fifty years in aviation took us from the Wright Flyer to the first jet airliners... fifty years in space has taken us from expensive, cramped capsules to really, really expensive, slightly less cramped space shuttles.

    2. Re:Relevance by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      fifty years in space has taken us from expensive, cramped capsules to really, really expensive, slightly less cramped space shuttles.

      ...And back to really cramped capsules.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    3. Re:Relevance by code_rage · · Score: 1

      How about 35 years after the Wrights flew? Men landed on the Moon in 1969. In 1938, the DC-3 has been in commercial service for 2 years. How about a DC-3 for space? If access to space becomes reasonably affordable and reliable, then there will be all sorts of exploration, economic development, and tourism.

    4. Re:Relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, not realistic. Between the Wright Flyer and the DC-3 there were thousands of different designs attempted for airplanes. Many were mediocre, some were ridiculous failures, but a lot of experience was gained.

      Contrast this to launch vehicle design. There have been a few dozen types of launchers built. The experience base is very thin. Space launch is simply much harder than atmospheric flight, so they haven't been able to do the level of real-world experimentation that leads to progress.

    5. Re:Relevance by CommieLib · · Score: 1

      I think the key here is that the Wright Brothers developed the airplane outside of the rubric of government. If there had been a government program to develop the airplane, I imagine you'd have seen the same progression, particularly if private individuals were enjoined from development.

      Furthermore, you could argue that manned spaceflight is not relevant, but I'd imagine you couldn't walk into a typical room of Americans without finding someone with a life impacted by space travel in general(satellite TV, phones, weather coverage, etc).

      --
      If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
    6. Re:Relevance by ubrinkley · · Score: 1

      My favorite quote from the report (re-quoted from the NYTimes article) "the pay-as-you-go approach could work if public and political support for space exploration by humans and robots could be maintained for several decades." -- And pigs will be sprouting wings any day now. Remember, this was from a panel criticized for being filled with "friendlies", IIRC.

    7. Re:Relevance by chasm!killer · · Score: 1

      I think that was his point. In 35 years lots of people, companies, governments, etc., worked on aircraft (blimps, airplanes, even hang gliders).

      In the same 35 years since we landed on the moon we have had very little interest in space and have not been able to do even an order of magnitude less innovating in either theory or practice.

      And I would say the landing on the moon was much more comparable to Lindberg's flight or at least that of the NC-4 in May, 1919, that the Wright brothers' flight (maybe that would compare to Alan Shepard's?).

      BTW, on August 11, 2003, the first successful robotic flight across the Atlantic took place -- based on this and the robotic flights to Mars, manned flights should have occurred 76 years before Mariner....?

      --
      -- Ancient (IBM 1620 and Atari 400) Programmer
    8. Re:Relevance by VanillaCoke420 · · Score: 1

      Probably because it's much harder to fly into an in space. The margins for errors are much smaller. One day, I am sure, there will be regular flights to orbit and cruisers going between the earth and moon. Not today and not tomorrow, but it will happen. Also, the jump between the small non-reusable capsules to the, in comparison, giant reusable spaceshuttle, is a giant leap in my book. It's far from perfect but under the circumstances it's an amazing piece of engineering. I am sure the next generation will be very much improved.

    9. Re:Relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But at the same time, plenty of government funding have been put to improve and develop aeroplanes, especially if they can be used to kill people and destroy lots of buildings. I believe this must have sped things up regarding technology in general and aeronautics in particular?

    10. Re:Relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      before 1980 we didn't waste all our time on the internet

    11. Re:Relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well Langley wasn't doing too badly with a govt-funded aircraft project. Had the Wrights not been on the scene, he probably would have ended up first.

  11. Spiral development and costs by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "spiral evolutionary development"?? D'OH!

    Also, about costs... may I point out the following:
    Mars lander that Jose'd itself into the surface: ~100 million dollars.
    Mars lander that did NOT Jose itself, and that sent back kick ass pictures: ~1 billion dollars (Viking).
    Do it right or don't do it at all!

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:Spiral development and costs by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      Another Mars lander that did NOT Jose itself, and that sent back kick ass pictures: 400 million dollars.

      It can be done more cheaply than it has in the past, it's just a matter of effort and innovative thinking.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
  12. so many wasted efforts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    how many great chemists are making perfume? how many great physicist are working for nike? how many brilliant electronic engineers are making elmo dolls? how many billionares are buying yaghts?

    If only they were all working on advancing technology; only working on how to make things better, finding better uses for things, doing important research...instead of making the things we've convinced ourselves are important.

    1. Re:so many wasted efforts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that's just crass.

      It amazes me how so many people who otherwise support the free market and the right of consumers to choose then turn right around and complain about these people's choices.

      Chemists, physicists, and electronic engineers look at the market and ask, "Academia, government, or corporate?" And guess who pays the best? Take a look at the government pay scales, and compare that to corporate. I am an electrical engineer, and the truth is, the government just doesn't pay as well as industry.

      The truth is that money speaks. Millions of people are willing to pay for the direct benefit to the self of perfume, Nike shoes, and tickle-me-Elmo dolls. Or in the case of the average /. reader, video cards and other computer hardware, games, and gear. And how many brilliant computer scientists are developing new algorithms for game rendering engines? How many network engineers work for Battle.net and eBay?

      "If only they were all working on advancing technology; only working on how to make things better, finding better uses for things, doing important research..." I hate to say it, but the average person sees far more benefit from these consumer products, the "things we've convinced ourselves are important" rather than undirected research in the basic sciences.

      If I took up a collection for space research or basic science research, I bet I could get at best, maybe $20 or $100 from people. But most people readily spend thousands of dollars a year on their consumer goods. Selfish? No. It's what's best for each individual in society, and thus what's best for society as a whole. Some people have higher motivations, and sacrifice pay for their work. Examples abound, across all industries. But you can't make that decision for anyone.

    2. Re:so many wasted efforts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't argue that the pay is better; and that these things are more important to the consumer. After all, i'm pretty happy that some guy created the condom and the 64oz soda cup.

      So, I suppose I am really upset with myself - being really no different than anyone else. even while writing my cowardly post, arguments akin to your own arose in my mind; as they always do when i contemplate that thing which I've written.

      Because, in the end the reason I want space travel and newer technologies is really the same reason anyone wants anything, it's just emotional.

      What's really important is the question, I guess.

    3. Re:so many wasted efforts by captapathy · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of smart, creative people out there in the private workforce. Instead of applying their talents toward products and services, why can't there be incentives to encourage applying those talents to far more "social" problems like reinventing government, reinventing the public education system, reducing consumption of resources. We continue to think that technology is the solution to our problems. When will we learn? I see some of the media making a big deal about Bill Clinton admitting that he had an affair "Because I Could". Isn't that this country's slogan of the last 50 years?

  13. Meta-Review: "You Bastard!" by Tackhead · · Score: 1
    > This is an amazingly thorough review - thanks "code_rage"!

    You're thinking the author?

    This code_rage person not only read the report and not only understood it well enough to summarize it, but well enough to clearly and concisely express damn near everything insightful, informative, and interesting possible about every section of it.

    So the only thing left for any of us to do is scrounge at the bottom of the (+1, Funny) barrel. Code_rage, you utter bastard!

  14. No money to go where we have gone before by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 3, Insightful
    That statement describes two problems with the moon project (I will leave MArs alone, we do not have the tech to make it happen so it is all hypothetical).

    First, there is no money to fund a moon program. When asked at a recent discussion on the subject if the military would fund such a venture, the DARPA fund manager simply said "no". He didn't qualify it even with an extra comment. It became quite obvious that there is no funding mandate for another moon landing despite rhetoric.

    Secondly, the public must weigh the value of going someplace we have already been against funding new work on the frontiers of quantum physics, nanotech, biotech, computing, etc. I find it hard to believe that a moon landing would benefit the public or the scientific community more than a breakthrough in nanotech, for example. The public should be funding science on the frontiers of discovery, not on the explored trails.

    In any case I don't know why this topic merits serious discussion any more - regardless of the projections for the costs, it is clear that the government has no plan for providing anywhere near the funds for even the most modest proposal.

    1. Re:No money to go where we have gone before by Bad+D.N.A. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without any funding of its own, the presidents exploration initiative is like the NIH deciding that penis enlargement is what it should focus on. Oh sure, everyone wants a bigger penis, until they find out that cancer research, heart research, etc.. all got dropped to pay for it.

      NASA funds a lot of good science and a good fraction of it is in serious jeopardy because the money is being pulled away to fund the exploration initiative. Want to venture a guess to what program may be hit the hardest? It's the Earth Sciences.... "But wait", you say, "aren't those the guys who study stuff like global warming". I wonder why that's happening... I wonder....

      --
      "Truth is much too complicated to allow anything but approximations"
    2. Re:No money to go where we have gone before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google for Zubrin and Mars Direct, we easily have both the tech and the money to go to Mars.

  15. Space is big. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    "Try long-range weapons and a pack of rabid lawyers."

    Before you can attack anyone you need to find them. Finding someone who doesn't want to be found in a cube of space a billion miles on a side is, shall we say, not very easy.

    1. Re:Space is big. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's not all that hard, if they're using any nontrivial amount of energy. The waste heat has to be radiated somewhere.

    2. Re:Space is big. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "Actually, it's not all that hard,"

      Yes it is. Do the math sometime...

      If you know where they are to within a few miles, then finding them from IR emissions is reasonably easy... but if you only know to within a billion miles, finding them is largely down to luck.

      Even then, of course, if they know where _you_ are, they can cool down the part of the spacecraft that's facing you, and expel the heat from the far side. That will make finding them even harder.

  16. One step ahead of you... by Gzip+Christ · · Score: 2, Informative
    2) A reality TV show about astronaut candidates. This long-running series, run by one of the major networks, would give a human face and personality to space flight. I'm not talking about people being voted off or anything stupid like that, but an unvarnished look at how astronauts are trained and selected.
    Well, there is a show in the works that sounds pretty close to what you're talking about, except that they want to send some average Joe into space. Of course, The Simposons did it first. All hail the inanimate carbon rod!
  17. Tang Nutrition Facts by loid_void · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The Nutrition Facts of TANG. So glad to hear it's still available.

    --
    Anyone seen my jagged little pill?
  18. Re:Geez! by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    You didn't need that freedom consumer 718736. Freedom and privacy only lead to piracy. We're going to keep a close eye on you.

  19. Agreed, there are more viable scientific frontiers by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If Boeing and Lockheed became interested in biotech or nanotech they wouldn't have to petition the government for further aerospace welfare funding.

    The public has turned into a funding arm for aerospace contractors at just the time when they should be figuring out how to make things work in the private sector.

    Biotech, proteinomics, genomics, nanotech, clean energy, computing, photonics, networking, etc etc etc are all areas that can provide direct benefits to mankind now and pose more unanswered questions for basic science.

  20. So how much did all THIS cost? by sparkywonderchicken · · Score: 0

    We'll only care about space after the invasion. PS Great article

  21. I wonder... by Starji · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It sounds an awful lot like NASA is becoming less like an area for developing new technologies and more like some kind of regulation agency for spaceflight. That analogy doesn't quite give NASA all the credit they deserve, but it does sound like they are stepping down from more mundane tasks and focusing on some of the more ambitious projects.

    Personally I think that is a pretty good way of handling human expansion into space. The public will get to know about everything out there, and then private industry can start to fill in the cracks. I'm not sure how well this will work in the short term, but it definately sounds like a good long term plan.

    1. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't believe NASA is stepping down. Instead I believe its more of a President having a political adgenda.

      NASA does a lot more than Human Space Flight, and I believe it would be very harmful to reduce them to that role.

      [Begin Conspiracy Alert]

      Think how much easier it would be to make changes in environmental regulations, without those pesky scientists monitoring things...

      [End Conspiracy Alert]

  22. What's with the SPAM links on spaceref.com? by chrisleetn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Look at the bottom of every page on spaceref.com's site: There are links to "Absinthe - Generic Viagra - Cialis - Hammocks - Cuban Cigars Humidors - Absinth - Sildenafil Citrate Salvia Divinorum - Salvia - Buy Salvia Divinorum - Free Samples - Xenical - Shopping"...

  23. What's the mission then? by perdu · · Score: 1
    Sounds like the commission looked at how to revamp NASA, without clearly defining what's it's new role would be. Would it focus solely on manned space flight? Then what about unmanned missions like the Mars Rovers? When those programs do succeed, they yield huge returns, both in public interest and scientific knowledge. Also, what would happen if we did try to go back to the Moon and lost a crew? (The Apollo program was very lucky and had glitches of some sort in every mission). I dont think NASA should put all of it's eggs into manned space exploration -- much as I'd like to see it return!

    --
    You only use 2% of your DNA
  24. Not the answer... by mratitude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As the old saying suggests, "If the answer to a question begins, 'The government...', the question was asked in front of the wrong people."

    Space is the remaining frontier and the issue of 'costs' in this context denotes the very problem at the core of the issue - Government is the last resort in everything and should only be done when a society cannot do something for itself.

    The evidence on non-public funding being inadequate to perpetuate technologies that will make space travel/habitation viable isn't conclusive. Rather, the evidence of government monopoly on space exploration outright blocking the privatization of space exploration is rather conclusive and obvious, IMHO.

    --


    Mod me troll, if you must, I can't help it.
  25. can you say gravy train? by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 1
    Of course we overspend on defense. We fund entire generations of weapons that never get employed usefully in modern conflict scenarios. You have to wonder why the F22 is being funded at all when the military is already moving on to the JSF for the bulk of missions. Oh are we in mortal danger if the Russians can build a prototype of a plane that can outperform the JSF? Get back to me when they can afford to produce ten of these and keep them functioning for four years.

    I'm in favor of a strong military, but this is justa gravy train for contractors. Most of this stuff serves no purpose other than to raise the stock price of TRW or Boeing.

    1. Re:can you say gravy train? by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Ike was thought of as a do-nothing President, and perhaps rather stupid, at that.

      OTOH, you don't head the D-Day invasion if you're dumb. You don't even get near the position, when the stakes are that high. We tend to forget that.

      There were two things in particular he said, that I liked:
      As he left the presidency, he cautioned the nation against the rise of the military-industrial complex. Of course we ignored his warning.
      In the immediate aftermath of WWII, he visited one of the Death Camps. I forget where his quote is placed, but it's rather stunning, and I'll try to paraphrase it: "I came here as a personal witness to his, because I know someday people will try to say it never happened."

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:can you say gravy train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the interest of just stating facts, the F-22 is an air-superiority fighter with some strike capabilites (minimal, but they are there), while the JSF is a strike fighter destined to replace all current strike fighters in the aresanal. (if it ever gets a run large enough to produce those numbers)

      Also, the F-22 is a Air Force fighter, while the JSF has variants for all major departments of the DoD, (CG excluded) as well as other nations.

  26. Launch cost is the issue by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What we really need to do, instead of trying to get a man to Mars right away, is lower launch costs. Really. We know we can get a person to Mars. But unless we think a tourist excursion is what we need, we really shouldn't be blowing this kind of money (ok, the kind of money it would *actually* cost, not what has been budgeted) on it.

    We need to lower launch costs. Plain and simple. It is quite possible; it's just *incredibly* difficult work. A reusable space plane which doesn't have the shuttle's size (nor its tiles!!), reusable booster rockets or cheaper disposables, etc, are all technically possible. It's just going to take a lot of money and time. There are no shortcuts.

    We also need to be spending more on ways to get unmanned payload to space cheaply. Anyone else for bringing back HARP, spending more on light gas guns, coil guns, rail guns, ram accelerators, and some of the other ballistic-launch methods to get a payload high enough that a small rocket can take it into orbit? Anyone for spending more money on research for advanced ion drives, magnetodynamic tethers, etc, to help craft get into higher orbits and even out of orbit? Anyone for spending more money on researching fusion drives, antimatter-catalyzed microfission/microfusion, and nuclear salt water rockets?

    There is so much out there that can *help* the space industry, instead of being a distraction. Let's make the trip affordable first!

    --
    You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    1. Re:Launch cost is the issue by Octorian · · Score: 1

      That's true. The #1 problem with spaceflight, IMHO, is propulsion. We don't have anything meaningfully operational beyond chemical rockets, and they're frankly not good enough.

    2. Re:Launch cost is the issue by Bishop923 · · Score: 1

      Anyone else for bringing back HARP

      Wasn't that the fake defense satelite from Remo Williams?

    3. Re:Launch cost is the issue by Mukaikubo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Entirely incorrect.

      Ion propulsion is, as of right now, The Way to move things about in space. With a nuclear reactor pushing it instead of solar panels, congratulations: You now know how the next and probably second and third generation of probes to the outer planets should be propelled.

      As for ground launch, we don't have anything better than chemical propulsion because we've spent the last century refining it to the point where the primary limiter on how good we can make chem rockets are the laws of thermodynamics! You can only have N amount of energy stored in chemical bonds. As a result, we're pretty much at the top of the game there- and deservedly so. It's the simplest, most cost-effective method of producing large amounts of thrust quickly there is except for detonating a nuke off your arse.

      As for different methods, well, low-thrust is really the hotbed of research right now. It's easier to get a hysterically efficient low thrust engine than a passably workable high thrust one. That said, once NERVA-derivative nuclear thermal rockets can figure out a light way to keep the exhaust from being radioactive, there'll be a sudden new technology that's good for lifting things off the ground.

    4. Re:Launch cost is the issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The long-term future IMHO is air-breathing launch vehicles taking over the work of the lower stages. It's barmy to be sending a rocket up with liquid oxygen mostly launching other liquid oxygen when you're going through an atmosphere that's 20% oxygen... What's needed is combined-cycle engines: turbojet/rocket -> Mach3 -> ramjet -> Mach6 -> Scramjet. Then a rocket "kicker" stage to get into orbit (ie a TSTO design).

      Possible upper limit of a sramjet is still not certain, but it may be possible to reach orbital velocity *within the atmosphere*! One idea being thrown around is that the scramjet vehicle rolls upside down at very high speed, and then uses the lift from the wings to keep it in the atmosphere as it accelerates to orbital velocity!

      Even crude airbreathers can show remarkable efficiency gains. On Astronautix.com there is an account of an experimental Soviet ramjet missile from the mid-60s, the PR-90; check its performance figures if you still believe that air-breathers are unsuitable for acceleration missions.

      A working reusable scramjet vehicle would do for space launches what the gas turbine did for intercontinental air travel...

    5. Re:Launch cost is the issue by delong · · Score: 1

      Well, considering that "right away" Mars mission is probably as far out as 30-40 years, I don't think there's much in the way of conflicting priorities here.

    6. Re:Launch cost is the issue by Rei · · Score: 1

      I personally prefer the notion of HARP/Light gas gun -> Scramjet -> Rocket. Cheaper. :) Sure, your scramjet needs to be able to survive the acceleration Gs, but scramjets don't have many, if any, moving parts; you just need to stop it from deforming, and scramjets are designed carefully to resist just that.

      In fact, it has already been done.

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
  27. space shuttle, etc by scharkalvin · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The space shuttle isn't a 'safe' technology. In fact space travel itself is dangerous. Astronauts must know their line of work has it's risks and they accept this much as firefighters, police, and military personal accept the risks in their chosen professions. So why limit the shuttle to the ISS (ie: let hubble die) because it's risky? DUH! That hasn't changed since the first astronaut climbed atop a redstone. The shuttles will have to be replaced by something else, and that something won't be any safer. (It may be cheaper to use, carry more payload, be more available, etc., but it WON'T be any safer). We've lost fewer astronauts to space accidents then the miltary has lost test pilots (not to mention fighter pilot trainees) and we havn't canceled the airforce (yet). Maybe fewer people would want to become astronauts (outside the military) if the REAL risks were made clearer, but I doubt we would have a shortage of personal.
    Keep the shuttles flying as long as needed. Develop a replacement (a good one, and keep poltics and pork out of the process).

    I'm surprised that the miltary sees no value in a moon base. The scientific values are sure there. Building a long term base on the moon will serve to develop the technology to go to Mars. But until the red planet has been thoughly expolored by robots, there won't be any need for man to go there in person.

    1. Re:space shuttle, etc by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "Keep the shuttles flying as long as needed."

      Potential astronauts are everywhere, but there are only three shuttles left. Lose one more and it doesn't matter what NASA want, the shuttle program is dead... it simply cannot function in any useful sense with only two shuttles (in particular because at any time there's usually one shuttle undergoing major maintenance work).

      Even with three shuttles it's going to be very hard to finish ISS before they stop flying.

    2. Re:space shuttle, etc by azmatsci · · Score: 1

      The odds of a mission-ending failure (yes that means the ship is destroyed) during a complete mission is 1-250 and getting smaller every launch. Will.

      --
      I stole this sig.
    3. Re:space shuttle, etc by Spencerian · · Score: 1

      A reminder that only 3 Orbiters could reach ISS anyway: Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour. OV-101 Columbia, the first and heaviest Orbiter, could not reach the ISS and was left to scientific missions.

      Right now, NASA has necessary redundancy, but, yes, I agree that the loss of an additional Orbiter would serious tax NASA's new safeguards and rescue modes. They plan on having a 2nd Shuttle ready to launch on the pad as a rescue vehicle while a mission is in progress. Considering how long to takes to prep an Orbiter, having just two of them would be a serious condition.

      --
      Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
    4. Re:space shuttle, etc by pfdietz · · Score: 1

      No, Columbia could have been launched to the ISS (just not with a full payload.)

  28. Mars, Money and Motive by Vincent+Galliard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Going to Mars is important. It is, if nothing else, a proof of concept - going to Mars is orders of magnitude more difficult than going to the Moon. It requires better propulsion, better equipment, more efficiency and the planning and execution to see a group of people through a multi-year mission to another planet and back. If we can go to Mars, we can (with minimal additional scaling effects) go anywhere in the Solar System. This (other than scientific research) is the purpose of going to Mars, no more and no less.

    "What's so great about that?" you might ask. If you want it in one word, that word is "Mining". Consider: in a nickel-iron asteroid, there is an amount of metal roughly equivalent to the metal mined in the course of human history. Not to mention rare heavy metals - Iridium, Osmium, Platinum - things that are scarce on earth but relatively more abundant in asteroids. A mining operation of that scale is more than lucrative - it also presents a way to attain necessary raw materials without tearing open the surface of our own planet.

    But, yeah, mostly, it's the money. Money is the key - and I don't mean "having enough money to do these things". What I mean is opportunities for profit in space. Space travel currently costs a lot - I maintain that this is due to lack of expertise. If there is a sufficient profit motive in space, companies will find ways to do things cheaper and faster and, arguably, better (not being a terrible believer in an unregulated market, this last point is debatable). Prove that we can go get to the money, and people will go get it.

    Which brings me to my last point - spending philosophy. A lot of people decry spending on the space program, arguing that the greatest benefits have come from near-Earth satellites and such; and besides, they say, aren't there better things to spend the money on? This is true, in a sense. But, I, for one, would rather spend another billion dollars on the space program, on research and development, than on a new B2 bomber that doesn't work the way it should and whose role as a long-range strategic bomber was obviated by the end of the Cold War. Finding a more worthy cause - education, health care, welfare - does not eliminate the need to spend on less worthy causes. The point is, we don't know yet what we might find worthy in space. It is a money sink until we find that. I think it is worth examining - with plans like reuseable launch vehicles and space elevators and Lagrange-point stations, we have a number of ways to lower the financial barriers to space.

    I am not generally one to talk so, but I think we have a responsibility to future generations and to our own sense of intellectual completeness to reach into space. The cost will be mitigated over time. The benefits could be grand. The investment will surely be prohibitive. The continued and future examination and implementation of space travel depend on a long-term view of the investment, a willingness to look for opportunities, and a certain modicum of childlike wonder and hope. Space is great. It's just hard to get to right now.

    --
    Vincent Galliard, Precinct 9 -- "Minding the gap since 1996"
    1. Re:Mars, Money and Motive by kegger64 · · Score: 1

      Until the problem of 'heavy-lifting' has been resolved, mining asteroids will never become "more than lucrative". Even if you could grab a one ton asteroid that was solid platinum and return it to earth, the transportation costs destroy your economics. But, like you, I hope someday this changes.

      --
      653899 - Another prime Slashdot UID
    2. Re:Mars, Money and Motive by Vincent+Galliard · · Score: 1

      This is certainly true. Ideas like the space elevator are a step in the right direction - you could affix an ion drive to the asteroid, maneuver it into a parking orbit, mine it and send the processed product down an elevator or some such. 'course, you don't want it in too close an orbit or else you've got a much bigger problem. ;o)

      --
      Vincent Galliard, Precinct 9 -- "Minding the gap since 1996"
    3. Re:Mars, Money and Motive by khallow · · Score: 1

      The solution is higher volume. I mean the amount of Earth to space traffic. Increase that by two or more orders of magnitude and the "heavy-lifting" problem (and the other expensive problems) will get solved. We need to use economy of scale.

    4. Re:Mars, Money and Motive by drank · · Score: 1
      On the one hand, you said
      "What's so great about that?" you might ask. If you want it in one word, that word is "Mining". Consider: in a nickel-iron asteroid, there is an amount of metal roughly equivalent to the metal mined in the course of human history. Not to mention rare heavy metals - Iridium, Osmium, Platinum - things that are scarce on earth but relatively more abundant in asteroids. A mining operation of that scale is more than lucrative - it also presents a way to attain necessary raw materials without tearing open the surface of our own planet.
      But in the next paragraph you say
      If there is a sufficient profit motive in space, companies will find ways to do things cheaper and faster and, arguably, better (not being a terrible believer in an unregulated market, this last point is debatable). Prove that we can go get to the money, and people will go get it.
      So why isn't, say, Halburton falling over itself to mine some of those asteroids to realize the "more than lucrative" profits? A few minutes reflection makes it clear that asteroid mining must not be as profitable as you suppose. Here is a USGS report showing 40 year price history for the metals you mention. (Click on "Platinum-Group Metals" in the PDF table of contents). Iridium, Osmium & Platinum are all selling well below their historical inflation-adjusted peak. Econ 101 tells us that the supply of these metals must have been growing faster than the demand for them, at least when looking at long term trends.

      So the reason that Halburton is not mining Iridium from asteroids is that, plain and simple, even $400/oz for Iridium cannot cover the cost of mining, transporting & de-orbiting that metal from asteroids. I think what you meant to argue is that at some unknown time in the future when Iridium is much scarcer than it is today, and access to space is much cheaper than it is today, asteroid mining might be a lucrative business. Sadly, most "lucrative" commercial space opportunties prove just as ephemeral upon close examination. Remember the 80's propaganda about micro-gravity pharmaceuticals manufacture on the space station?

      Personally, I do not believe that space will be conquered until private individuals and private companies find a reason to live & work there. I don't believe any amount of NASA technology boondoggles or NASA programs to put government employees in orbit will accomplish this. On the other hand, I'm pretty optimistic that within 5 years, we'll see a vigorous sub-orbital space tourism market as a result of the current X-Prize competitors' efforts. I think that NASA might have a positive contribution on space technology development if relies more on prizes and incentives for non-government actors. Big NASA projects like the Shuttle & space station (and I suspect a mission to Mars) accomplish nothing but the distribution of pork and the elimination of budget for more worthwhile projects.

    5. Re:Mars, Money and Motive by Vincent+Galliard · · Score: 1

      I guess what you say in your last paragraph is the biggest part of what I was getting at - I appreciate your critique and realize that, no, asteroid mining is not feasible and not particularly necessary today. But as demand grows, it will be a resource we will want to turn to, and those high barriers to space that make it fiscally undesirable will only come down when somebody makes the financial effort to do it.

      --
      Vincent Galliard, Precinct 9 -- "Minding the gap since 1996"
  29. Oink, Oink - this is pork, not space flight by Animats · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There's a key line in the "executive summary":
    • NASA Centers be reconfigured as Federally Funded Research and Development Centers to enable innovation, to work effectively with the private sector, and to stimulate economic development.

    "Stimulate economic development" is a code word for "spend money in my Congressional district". And "Federally Funded Research and Development Centers" aren't organizations tightly focused on single goals.

    That "executive summary" addresses all the wrong stuff. It doesn't mention cost, schedule, or basic approach. It's all about organizational structure. That's not how Apollo was done.

    It also says very little about NASA's thirty years of failures to build a new launch vehicle. Those bozos can't even replace the existing Shuttle. Not for lack of money, either. In the past 30 years, NASA has spent more money than it did from 1960 to 1974, with far less to show for it. Keeping all those "centers" going costs billions.

    DARPA, by comparison, is tiny. DARPA itself is a few hundred people. They buy and evaluate; they do nothing in house. There are no "DARPA centers" chewing up billions in overhead.

    1. Re:Oink, Oink - this is pork, not space flight by Orne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ... Those bozos can't even replace the existing Shuttle. Not for lack of money, either. ...

      Ok, you have a NASA administration that is completely incompetent (by your own admission, throwing good money after bad), and then you complain that the commision wants to change out the organizational structure. As if leaving these people in the positions to make business decisions is viable?

      And amazingly enough, changing NASA's finance model to a DARPA model, shouldn't cost as much money as NASA is now, so it shouldn't be a surprise that future funding is not as aggresive as it is today. In my opinion, we have given them plenty of money, which they squandered on building (1) a floating international research station without science modules and (2) a flying tractor trailer to move shipments when we needed taxis. They've hardly earned my respect to continue to have responsibility.

    2. Re:Oink, Oink - this is pork, not space flight by Animats · · Score: 1

      The commission didn't suggest any tough decisions, like shutting half NASA's "centers", or accepting that chemical propulsion has reached its limits, Or closing out NASA's non-spaceflight activities. That's my point,

  30. Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget air. I like to breathe.

  31. Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Jim+McCoy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Food is easy. Try packing all of the water and air you will use for the next 9 months in a small suitcase...

    Both of these consumables can be recycled slightly (water more than O2) but there will still be loss because we have not come close to building a closed loop environmental support system that is ready for space or small enough to make it up there. A closed-loop water system is close enough to reality that some of it could be applied here, but a closed-loop system for breathing is not going to be flying anytime soon (these involve things like growing plants to convert CO2 to O2, which increases the volume and weight of the spacecraft significantly.)

    A body at rest consumes about 0.3L of O2 per minute. That is 432L per day of metabolic consumption and 116000L over nine months. Using 3000psi composite cylinders (larger, but lighter and we are weight-restricted here) you are looking at about 1.5 tons of weight for gas storage with no reserve and with no allowance for regulation or distribution of the O2. If the astronauts were actually going to do more than lie very still for nine months then your O2 budget goes up.

    For water the problem is both easier and harder. It is easier because we have actually made good progress on small, lightweight water recycling systems, and it is harder because each litre of water lost carries a significant cost in terms of weight. An average person consumes 2L of water per day, so you would need 540L for your nine-month mission. We will start by saying that your water needs for cooling and other uses can be handled by non-recoverable losses in the recycling system. Now, if your water recycling system is 80% efficient you will still need to lug up 250 pounds of water and another hundred pounds of container and piping.

    Now we are talking about 2 tons of consumables per astronaut, assuming the astronauts do nothing more than lie in their chairs and watch TV for nine months...

    BTW, the grandparent came up with three years because for a Mars trip there are two options, short stay or long stay. For your short trip the astronauts would have a couple of weeks on the surface before they would have to leave so that their return transfer orbit would be able to catch up to the earth. The other option is to keep the astronauts on the surface for a year and meet up with earth after both planets have cicled around and are close enough for a transfer orbit. The grandparent poster was also assuming a more fuel-efficient transfer to Mars using a Hohmann transfer orbit, which takes 8.5 months.

    No one gets a "three month" stay on Mars, at least not if they want to return to Earth. It is either weeks or a year. Any other option requires a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of fuel to catch up with the Earth.

    1. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      Water and O2 can be made on Mars, along with propellant. Without recycling. Columbus didn't take along every piece of food and ounce of water they'd ever need, because he knew there was going to be stuff he could use when he got there.

      And I have this really neat thing on my desk. It's called a "plant." It has the astonishing ability to take CO2 and converting it to oxygen. Other models can also make food and process water! With this kind of astonishing technology, I don't know why we can't go to Mars *right now*!

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure about trying to grow plants on mars on an initial mission (would the space, mass, and energy requirements for such a large, even inflatable, pressurized greenhouse really justify it? Perhaps - it's hard to say). On the other hand, you probably could justify a big plastic bag of photosynthetic bacteria and minerals in a "just add water and CO2" situation - perhaps they could even produce sugars for you. :)

      I'd imagine it'd be a whole lot easier than trying to grow plants... although if they could get true farming going, that would be just great. :)

      --
      You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
    3. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Slinky+Saves+the+Wor · · Score: 1

      Well, you could also build a closed circulation system, a biosphere if you will, kind of like they tried with Biosphere 1 and 2.

      A small replica of the ecosystem, in essence: plants make O2 and consume CO2, humans and fish etc. consume O2 and make CO2, food is fish and plants etc. Pesticides include ladybugs. And so forth, and so on.

      Read more here about the Biosphere experiments and biospherics in general.

      Don't know if it would add much weight to a space ship, but I guess there's some initial weight to get things rolling rolling and after that all subsequent humans and plants would go in pretty cheaply, weight-wise. So it would not scale linearly as it would in the case of O2 gas canisters.

      --
      I do not moderate.
    4. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by ccoakley · · Score: 1

      What mass/volume of this plant technology is required to recycle the CO2 for a single person? Also, does this technology have any consumables of its own such as H20? Seriously, do you think an office plant provides you with enough air to sustain your life?

      As far as producing 02 and Water on Mars, how much equipment is required for that (and include the maintenence equipment)? Columbus was taking a risk that he would get to Asia before food ran out. He knew that he could buy his replentishment supplies in Asia. Furthermore, he knew that his trip back would take about the same time as his trip there (Asia/Europe didn't move closer/further as his trip progressed). He didn't plan on hitting a continent before Asia. What if he had hit a giant desert continent with no discernable food source? Ok, teach a man to fish... but the water problem remains unless they had decent destillers or something for getting drinking water from salt water. History is not my best subject.

      By the way, it is going to take a lot of propellant to come back (Mars gravity is close to Earth gravity). That implies that you have to store it in those same discarded (oops) boosters that you took off of earth in (or replacements sent to mars on a seperate trip). We can't take off of earth effectively without a costly launch platform, what makes people assume we can do it on mars (because mars is all rocky, just like the moon so we can use the same launch technology)? How are we going to get that set up? Those air force pilots better bring along a couple of good constuction workers. Hell, just landing a craft upright will take a lot of fuel (or you need to build a big ass crane to upright it after it lands, which exacerbates the mass problem).

      OK, now I am going to RTFA...

      --
      Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
    5. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      What mass/volume of this plant technology is required to recycle the CO2 for a single person? Also, does this technology have any consumables of its own such as H20? Seriously, do you think an office plant provides you with enough air to sustain your life?

      Suprisingly, plant technology can be stored in a very low-mass, low-volume form, known as a "seed." Combined with Martian soil (which has been shown in dirtside simulations to grow plants well) and water that can be evaporated from martian soil, it expands many orders of magnitude, consuming CO2 as it goes and storing it inside itself. And while a single plant is not large enough to support a human, many plants have been shown to be sufficient in dirtside experiments. Indeed, their O2 output increases as human activity increases, always pursuing homeostasis!

      Transit times from Mars to Earth and vice versa can be the same, if you schedule it right. If you can sustain yourself on the surface, there's no reason to leave, other than to return samples. Farming can do this, and a nuclear reactor would provide years of power.

      And we're not going to be flying the Shuttle to Mars. It will be a specially designed vehicle. And it won't be the one we went there with. It will have landed before the people are launched, so they have their return vehicle in place. Mars has 1/3 the Gravity of earth, which means much less fuel requirements for launch and trans-Earth injection.

      If you're really curious (as opposed to being an ass), you should read Zubrin's A Case for Mars.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    6. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by ShieldWolf · · Score: 1

      What about the CO2?

      Can't you retrieve the oxygen back from the CO2(this will of course require ENERGY)?

      Isn't that what plants do now?

      Why bring 1.5 TONS of air and then vent 1.5 TONS of CO2 out into space?

      --
      just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
    7. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by ccoakley · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to be an ass. Actually, the whole farming on Mars thing has always occurred to me as infeasible, at least on the timelines people discuss sending humans to mars on. So, the seed response is a bit of a zinger against my post. However, I am not aware of any plants grown from seed which do not also require a lot of oxygen (most plants have a fairly long respiration cycle as well). Most of the oxygen on earth comes from the ocean. Of course, since oxygen production is a surface phenomena, it isn't surprising given that the majority of the surface is ocean. I am by no means an expert at biology (ok, most things). Harvesting the O2 is still a formidable problem. Plants are not efficient in terms of the surface area they require for the quantity of O2 they produce (they may be the most efficient method that exists, but that doesn't invalidate the argument). The fact that there has been no successful sealed ecosystem experiment on Earth is more troubling. You have to build something to harvest resources on mars. First, you have to pay for designing that something. Then, you have to pay for getting that something to mars.

      Mars is .38 surface gravity while the moon is .17 (relative to Earth). Still, that is not insubstantial in terms of fuel. I am aware that we are not sending a shuttle. In fact, my little sister is actually a rocket scientist at Lockheed working on (one of?) their next gen space platform project(s). My point was that off earth launch technology (including fuel refining technology) does not exist today and is a non-trivial problem. Even if you can get stuff from mars, you have to get the equipment to mars.

      The majority of the arguments pro Mars seem to rely on the fact that since something is possible, it can be acheived through taxpayer funding. Have these people been asleep for the last few decades? This is the US Government we are talking about! Throwing piles of money into a barrel, covering it in gasoline, lighting a match, and salvaging what you can has a higher return on investment than most government funded projects. Heck, look at the post today about the magic laser stun gun.

      I'd be a lot more for the whole mars thing if it wasn't pushing back science missions that actually have a chance of working. What happens if, after spending a trillion dollars on the project and absorbing the costs of all of the overruns and minor failures along the way, the public opinion of the project drops to a small minority? Then we will have lost all of the science missions that were cast aside AND the mars mission. What happens if the martian farming project takes five years and ends in failure? There are two government models: the first, fund an expensive project with good funding to solve the problem. The second, inadequately fund many cheap projects to solve the problem. Unfortunately, both models fail quite often (fortunately, many failures turn into successes after quadrupling their budget in overruns). The odds of everything coming together within the proposed budgets? Slim.

      The taxpayers have balked at large projects before. Remember the supercollider project? That was a horrible waste of funding. Imagine if that funding had gone into magnetics (and high temperature superconductor) research. At the end of that initial funding, the supercollider could have probably been built for a fraction of the origional cost. Note, I've stolen this; this was actually the conclusion of a large number of people on the project, who attributed a lot of the problems to the size of the cooling equipment required by the magnets. Of course, they didn't want to lose their funding, and they didn't do magnetics research.

      So, the question should not only be "Can we do it?" The questions should be "Can we do it within the funding constraints we envision?" and "Are there better projects to invest in that might reduce the cost of this project later on?" You might even want to add "Are there better projects that won't act as stepping stones for this project but are more worthy of funding anyway?"

      Note: I had not heard of Zubrin's book. Thanks for the reference.

      --
      Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
    8. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Well, I think part of his point was that a biosphere large enough to support a human is going to be extremely massive, and mass equals fuel equals cost.

      Why do you think it wouldn't scale linearly? Each added human/animal is that much more consumed O2 and water, meaning that much more plant matter to maintain equilibrium, all of which needs support by the other elements of the system.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    9. Re:Water and O2 are the consumables that matter by Slinky+Saves+the+Wor · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it wouldn't scale linearly? Each added human/animal is that much more consumed O2 and water, meaning that much more plant matter to maintain equilibrium, all of which needs support by the other elements of the system.

      True. I was thinking about something with the reproductive properties of plants and the length of the trip, but apparently I didn't quite think far enough...

      --
      I do not moderate.
  32. Propulsion Systems by Egekrusher2K · · Score: 1

    It seems as if our biggest hurdle that we have to jump at this point is a new propulsion technology. Rockets are very limiting, in more than one way.

    1. The amount of heat that they generate.
    2. Fuel consumption. A significant amount of the overall weight and mass on space shuttles have been devoted to carrying fuel.
    3. They tend to blow up.
    4. They are relatively slow. If we ever plan to leave our solar system, we are going to need much faster propulsion systems.

    We need something that requires little fuel, is not unnecessarily dangerous to launch, and will propel us much faster than todays systems. We just don't have the technology for a propulsion system such as this yet. Maybe we should worry about obtaining technology such as this before we send our astronauts to their doom.

    --
    Listen to my experimental-industrial-techno!
    1. Re:Propulsion Systems by Vincent+Galliard · · Score: 1

      Answer: ion propulsion. It doesn't have nearly the thrust of a chemical rocket, but a) is about an order of magnitude more efficient (as measure in terms of specific impulse), and b) can, with a bit of time, get plenty fast. This is the most likely propulsion technology to be used for intrasystem travel in the near future.

      --
      Vincent Galliard, Precinct 9 -- "Minding the gap since 1996"
  33. Yes we can go to Mars by azmatsci · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Whats the deal with everyone saying we don't have the tech to go to Mars? They tech has existed since the early 70's. You do not need advanced hab modules or rockets, simple computers (LINUX or HAL, take your pick) work fine, and you don't need some crazy spinning gravity inducing spaceship to get you there. The origional plan was for an Apollo-type pod and LIM to be used with an additional cargo container for water and food. The simple profile had 1.5 years out, a 2-6month stay, and a 1.5 year return. Its not rocket science people. OK so it is. But the fact remains it is not hard to go to Mars. The point of giong to Mars should be the development of all the new tech to make the journey and stay more confortable and profitable. Which is the real reason we should be going, profit. When people came to the US, they had to make money for their investors back in UK or Spain to pay off their journey. Mars should be the same. Send the poeople there sponsored by compaines like Lockheed and Boeing and have them do research to make their companies money. I volenteer to be one of these people, but my wife is going to be pissed.

    --
    I stole this sig.
  34. But this is more than Apollo by apsmith · · Score: 2

    If we're building new space industries we clearly don't want just government money on it. But as you say, the current spending plan gives little money to the new initiative before 2010: why not get more of that money up front and get this thing moving a lot sooner? If the money is paying for services a competitive environment instead of cost-plus contracts, it'll only help. After all, even Elon Musk is getting both government and private contracts for his services.

    --

    Energy: time to change the picture.

    1. Re:But this is more than Apollo by mhmealling · · Score: 2

      If NASA could be trusted with that money and if the request for more money would not doom the entire vision to an early congressional grave, I might agree with you. But given NASA's history and the current political climate I can't see either of those happening. NASA is already making noises about gearing up a Shuttle derived heavy lift component. I'd rather restrict their budget so they can't do that than run the risk of them using larger budgets to do things they shoudln't be doing.

  35. mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can I truthfully write "no text" when that itself is text?

  36. More on rocketforge by apsmith · · Score: 1

    I should point out mhmealling has some good commentary of his own here.

    --

    Energy: time to change the picture.

  37. why go to mars when most of us are living there? by stgabriel · · Score: 1

    Considering how wacked the world is, what's the point of going there, other than to say We Were Here? We might as well I suppose, considering that we probably won't be around in a century. Take a look at this site and you'll get the idea. This world is in GREAT hands ;-)

  38. Exactly, more Boeing GRAFT by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 2, Informative
    I love the "patriotic" imagery Boeing puts in its promotional material and commercials. In fact Boeing is more involved in ripping off American taxpayers than most other companies. I'm not talking "alleged", I'm talking about direct claims from the Pentagon, GAO, etc that Boeing does not dispute.

    Projects like these are more subjective, but lets face it, Boeing and Lockheed lobby hard for this gravy - these open-ended projects are where they really make their bank.

  39. Why I feel that NASA should simply be disbanded by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    NASA has simply outlived its usefulness as an agency. There are a few projects that by international agreement still need to be continued for a number of years (such as the completion of the ISS), but I would not cry too much if Congress simply pulled the plug altogether.

    Some aspects of this proposal are valid, such as spinning off the research agencies. I could see the creation of a "Department of Science" or some other federal bureaucracy that would oversee national research laboratories, including much of the NSF programs (Like the Antarctic research bases), leftover items from NASA such as JPL or Ames, and include other scientific projects that are generally "Big Science" that take so much capital to put together that it really makes sense to fund them with federal dollars due to legitimate return on their value. A restructuring of the NSF would also have value on its own as well. A restructuring like this would even allow other areas of research to be created that currently aren't being done.

    When I think of NASA, I think of a bunch of cool looking guys (and a few cool women) dressed up in spacesuits going to places that nobody has ever gone before. For over 30 years NASA has done nothing even resembling this idea, so it is no wonder that a bunch of greying astronauts (no matter how fit they are) with stuck-up elitist attitudes have absolutely no connection with ordinary Americans like myself. I happen to know personnally (I've been in his home and done things with his kids... now raising kids of their own) one of the Apollo astronauts, and boy did he have a bunch of fun stories including his own recollections of Yuri Gregarian, not to mention Neil Armstrong and others I'm sure /. readers would be familiar with. The NASA that exists today is not the same sort of agency that existed back during the Apollo program.

    I am a solid supporter of further space exploration. I feel we, as a species, need to get off this rock and move on throughout this universe. NASA, rather than helping out in moving this idea forward like they did in the 1960's, they are now a major obsticle keeping people from going into space. The longer NASA continues to exist as an agency, the longer and harder it will be for my kids and grandkids to get into space themselves. If this is a P.R. perception that NASA needs to change for both myself and within NASA as well, so be it. I wish it would simply go away because we no longer need the agency.

    I do think that a civilian-based space exploration agency of some sort should exist, and perhaps something should be done to preserve the Astronaut corp, but there is so much more to NASA than astronauts that this minor part of the agency could be kept running for almost nothing compared to what it is currently taking to run the agency. When the main Astronaut corp office is in LEO rather than in Houston, Texas, I might give those guys a little more respect. Unfortunately I think the USAF will have a military base in space well before NASA gets its act together.

  40. Re:NASA should speed up things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    huh!!
    why do they have to wait??
    Don't they have a tolkein in your centauri?!!?

  41. Some Choices Re:Propulsion Systems by StefanJ · · Score: 1

    Someone mentioned ion drives.

    These are definitely more efficient than conventional liquid fueled rockets, and even more than the fission rockets we tested in the 60s, but they are not an attractive choice for manned spaceships.

    It would take a LONG time for an ion-drive equipped ship to reach escape velocity. You would need to bring along life support supplies for the weeks or months it would take a ship to just get away from the Earth. Also, they would be exposed to solar flares and such during this time.

    A more refined fission rocket, which might be less efficient than an ion drive, but would have sufficient thrust to get a rocket to escape velocity and on its way fairly quickly, would be the way to go.

    Eventually, we'll have access to fusion drives and such, but even then they'd probably be paired with higher-thrust rockets for gross maneuvers. The low-thrust high-efficiency drives would be used for constant accelleration and deacceleration in between orbital insertion / departure burns.

    Orion style bomb-drives are a possibility, but they'd have major political problems. Maybe for emergencies.

    Regarding point 4:

    One engineering hurdle we'll have to address on almost all advanced propulsion systems is waste heat.

    If you have a nuclear reactor, you'll need to drag along great big radiators.

    Stefan Jones

  42. Private Investment by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    I wonder if that's what the commission is talking about when they say that they think private companies could do a better job. The governments had their chance and they've proven that all they can do is spin their wheels and waste money. Maybe it's better left to private industry.

  43. What I see is .... by innerweb · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ... another tipping of serious government resources to be given to the private sector, specifically, defense and similar contractors.

    NASA works primarily because it is government. Yes, it always has the chance to be swayed from one political side to the other (slightly). NASA, though is also one of the few (only?) institutions of the government that has actually returned more money to the economy than it has taken. The thought of slice and dice on NASA is chilling. NASA provides (or provided) a strong platform for bringing initial research from the point of being non-viable in a business sense to a viable and even necessary understanding for businesses.

    Take a look at most business today, especially corporations. How far down the road are the looking for a return on investment before they are willing to spend their capital on anything? Not even 4 years in most cases. There are a few exceptions, but normally limited to the pharmaceutical companies. Even most investment funds are geared to a year by year investment strategy, and they have one of the longest look ahead time frames for any product on the market.

    I see the same private interests peeking up here as I see in almost all other privatization, schools, parks, roads, etc. The failure of this view is to recognize that by their very nature, all businesses must make a profit, and that means to the exclusion of all things perceived profitless (or not profitable enough). Our space program would have never happened if that had been the view (profit), and more than likely many things from tennis shoes to microwave ovens would either not exist yet or never exist. (Yeah, I know theoretically, all things in time will exist, but realistically, from a profit motive standpoint, most things will not exist, as the profit motive is not strong enough and even a societies available consumption is finite in nature. Basic supply and demand says no (or not enough) demand, no need for a supply.)

    One of the problems with advanced cutting edge/bleeding edge research (like the moon missions) is that you have to throw tons of money away to get the advances. But as has been shown time and again (moon shots, Internet, Christopher Columbus, Marco Polo, ), the benefits can be unmistakably life altering. This is something that most businesses are not good at, and in the hands of businesses would slow to a trickle.

    IMO, NASA should be returned to its prior years of glory. I say glory because as a nation we glorified it. We stood as a people behind its mission. The bully pulpet of the president was strongly behind it. It was advertised and promoted. If anything should be outsourced, perhaps that would be the best start. We do so well promoting our drug using abusive sports heroes, but we fail to promote that which is essentially most valuable to us as a society, even as a race.

    InnerWeb

    --
    Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
  44. International cooperation by heroine · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Better yet, just pay another country to do it. Pay India for the software. Pay France for the rockets. Pay Canadia for the robotic arms. Pay China for the electronics. NASA should be an consumer, not a producer.

    1. Re:International cooperation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a low-ass UID. I salute you, primordial slashdotter!

  45. bigger issues than space academy by maxhavoc · · Score: 1

    I worked at JSC through a subcontractor between my degrees.. let me say that most of the technical work seemed to be done by subcontractor personnel.. most of the civil servants I encountered were busy climbing the ladder to micromanage everything.. this is a generalization, mostly from what I saw working there for a few years.

    dont get me wrong; I am a space advocate. I think it is one of the most noble undertakings of the human race. But NASA has left a bad taste in my mouth (at least my experience at JSC) and I eagerly await privitized space without the regulation of NASA... Im waiting on plans for the moon base, and as others have noted, launch costs are prohibitive.

    The way NASA blows through the money they have at the end of the fiscal year... its like expensive toy shopping.. "use all your budget money! congress wont give us the same budget next year if they see that we dont use it this year".. NASA likes to penalize subcontractors for being underbudget just as much as overbudget. It would just make sense to me to move the money to projects that are overbudget (and this is not to say projects should go overbudget knowing that hopefully some project goes underbudget) rather that blowing it on things that just arent necessary to make it look good on paper to the NASA monitors...

    Regarding the academy idea, there is already a braindrain seperated by age gap.. The outgoing older management that probably worked in the good ol' days of space seem to be only replaced by younger managers.. no tech transfer to the younger generation, just management skills.
    You can pick up a lot in school, but experience with technical people means so much more, especially when the funding and public popularity of the good ol' days isnt there.

    Basically, we are haveing to start form the ground up again. We have newer technology, but its still in its infancy and no real funds to develop them. All the old tech for launch vehicles (however wasteful) has virtually been lost with retirees.

    An academy would be a great idea, but just as you have to sell the idea of space to the public, you have to sell it to engineers/technicians as well... Money is always a motivator and the aerospace industry isnt as lucrative as other engineering industries (I guess given the number of unemployed engineers, anything is better than nothing). If the subcontractors are doing most of the tech works, its the subs that need the academy pool, but if the contracts dont have the money to support the salaries there is no need for personnel.

    my $0.02

  46. Hey that's actually a very good idea by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 1

    Seriously man, contact NASA. I'm not a big Reality TV Fan, but I think I would watch somthing like this. It's a very good idea.

    --


    (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
  47. I disagree somewhat by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 1

    I agree civilian based exploration is the future. But that is still some time in the future. For now NASA is still our best option and they shouldn't be abandoned until we can say with all honestly that the private sector does a better job.

    --


    (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
    1. Re:I disagree somewhat by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I don't advocate an immediate disbandment of NASA, but if there were a phase-out period of say 10-15 years where different parts of NASA were handed over to other agencies and some way to preserve the Astronaut corp in some form, I would be totally supportive.

      NASA right now, even after decades of anemic funding, is still a monster organization that simply can't be shut down immediately, or at least shouldn't. There is much that can be salvaged from the corpse of NASA, but I don't see anything shy of a total dissolution of NASA that would solve the current bureaucratic nightmares.

      A gradual shutdown would also allow different presidential administrations (a problem with this proposal, as anything lasting longer than 4 years usually doesn't happen in D.C.) to put their own $0.02 into the mess, but for me, my political support for NASA is over, and nothing would be a "sacred cow" that I would complain to my congressman over, including local NASA contractor jobs.

      The shuttle SRB motors are made in a plant only 50 miles from where I'm writing this, and I've even applied to work there in the past, with a very realistic chance to get a job there. I wish that ATK Thiokol would get into the private launch business, but they don't want to "rock the boat" at the moment. They currently have rockets that are capable of going into orbit with some fairly large payloads, as if the Shuttle itself isn't big enough. With just a little bit of a change in direction on the management level they could be in direct competition with Scaled Composites and Armadillo Aerospace, but they won't change until those upstart companies are making more profit than both they and Boeing are making combined in profits from space launches.

    2. Re:I disagree somewhat by shadowbearer · · Score: 1


      The main problem is overregulation by the Federal government. Until that is addressed in a non-4-/2/8 year-manner, private space flight will continue to have to jump thru increasingly expensive hoops.

      Restructure that ( and it's pretty well structured right now to keeping government contracts by major industry moguls like Boeing etc) - restructure the contract favoritism to fund - no, to just leave it the fricc alone - X-program style efforts like Rutans', and I think we'd see a huge explosion in private companies providing access at costs that NASA could never touch. I suspect that a lot of the public-at-large is figuring that out. Good!

      Public perception, media spin, and insurance, I won't even touch - all three of them are so biased against doing *anything* that involves risk, that it makes me puke. Media, particularly. Not as a whole, but certain induhviduals and corpserations out there can't contemplate farther than their thumb and forefinger. Fuck the media, and if the insurance co's can't analyze long-term risk, then fuck them, too.

      Countries like China, private enterprises (if the current insanity continues they will be offshored!) and Europe are going to lap us. The US is too busy contemplating it's own navel to be useful for any really serious human endeavour other than on the military side. It's not a lack of public interest, it's a lack of public participation, in the face of all the other distractions our gov has involved us in. (I'm *NOT* going to go there).

      Yours in agreement ( IB extremely pissed off, my oldest friend -A) ; and lets hope that when private goes legit - if - that the best from the corps goes where they can make a diff~!

      SB
      [ Angry? Moi? Neh. Not even started yet ]

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
  48. Cathedral versus the Bazaar perchance? by moorley · · Score: 1
    My biggest gripe against current space exploration is the monolithic design.

    What if our history dictated everyone flying around in huge "Hindenburg" like aircraft, would there be any innovation in the Aerospace industry?

    Or instead of individual cars everyone was fixated on a limited number of grand double decker transports that only professional drivers could handle?

    The point I'm trying to get at is why don't we make small solid technologies rather than huge technologies? Why rockets with huge payloads? Why not something more like the X-Prize?

    Part of what seems to be killing NASA and the space industry is the view that only a certain type of technologies will work in space. I'm not sure how to change it but would more modular technologies be more fitting? Smaller payloads, more spacecraft, longer reaching technologies?

    Just my two cents. It just seems exploration is always a dangerous when you don't have redundancy. Christopher Columbus at least could build another raft but our explorers run the risk of death by oxygen deprivation or burning up in the atmosphere because we only have a few spacecraft that costs billions of dollars. Doesn't make sense to me.

    Even if it takes 50-100 years a few solid designs would be more interesting to me rather than these barely flying monoliths.

    --
    "Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me :)
  49. outsource it by zogger · · Score: 1

    The US is outsourcing everything else, what's wrong with space? Contract the russians, they have the best heavy lift capabilities,rusting away, and they got engineers hanging around who will work for a lot less, and they are living where it costs less to live, so it's affordable NOW. Stop subsidising right and left coast extreme cost of living, and stoip spending space money to keep doofuses in meetings in washington and houston and flying around on junkets. It cost millions of dollars inside any random US bureaucracy just to TALK about something, let alone actually *do it*, and even then the political careerists make the decisions-not any smart guys who are actual engineers. Accept that space exploration is riskier than most fields, and get on with it, at greatly reduced cost,by funding the best deal out there. At medium to large scale that is the russians, at small scale that is the US (and a few others) private sector as evidenced by the X-prise entrants, and turn loose the private sector. Look at them not allowing team armadillo to get proper peroxide fuel, all that is is bureaucratic crap, OF COURSE space exploration will be RISKY. Who cares? Certainly not the people who WANT TO DO IT. I got a lot of respect for the actual NASA workers who are able to pull off ANYTHING successful dealing with the crap they have to deal with.

    If it was happening today, will and orville wright couldn't fly, first they would need a waiver from the interior department because they might disturb dune grass, then a million dollar permit from the EPA to make sure they didn't dribble any "coal oil" on the wetlands, then the military would stamp TOP FREEKING SEEKRIT on any of their work and steal it from them, then this paper then that permit and ...phooie. Bureaucracy and entrenched weenieness and "not designed here so we can't use it" syndrome is as much a hindrance as any of the legitimate technological problems, and you will keep getting that as long as "space" is run by the US congress and career appointed insider good ole boy plutocrats, same as every other agency is now run. Ain't a true statesman or visionary in the whole dang flock of 'em, IMO.

    1. Re:outsource it by Jogar+the+Barbarian · · Score: 1

      Contract the russians, they have the best heavy lift capabilities,rusting away, and they got engineers hanging around who will work for a lot less, and they are living where it costs less to live...

      We've tried this. The Russians have been close partners in Space Station Alpha (IIS) construction fro the get-go, and as you may recall, we've suffered significant delays because of Russian difficulty in completing their hardware in time to make launch schedules. At one point, construction was stymied for lack of a *single* Russian station component for almost a year, and we had to subsidize them heavily to get the job done at all. This begs the question, if to make the Russian space agency useful to us we have to sink huge amounts of money into them, why not just spend the money on building up our own launch capability?

      --
      3. Profit!
      2. ???
      1. On Soviet Slashdot, a Beowulf cluster of alien Natalie Portman overlords welcomes YOU!
  50. We need a 'Moon-Disney' by BattleHawk · · Score: 0

    The only way to make space exploration appeal to the general masses is the same way Atlantic crossings developed, whether it be by boat, Zepplin, or aircraft.
    Initially, governments (kings/queens) paid for journeys across the oceans. Once these 'Public' ventures accomplished something like building a settlement and proving the voyage to be relatively safe, wealthy upper class commissioned their own private voyages.
    The more voyages that occured, the larger the vessels; the larger the vessels, the cheaper the individuals cost; the cheaper the individual cost, the more the general masses can take part. As the number of tourists increase, the more the need for accomodation at the destination; the more accomodation, the more workers to support it...
    This all leads to the eventual construction of Disneyworld. So why not kickstart the whole thing by packing up EuroDisney and put it on the moon.

  51. I'll go.(READ ME, NASA!!) by phyruxus · · Score: 1
    I want to say something about the crew that will go to Mars (assuming there ever is one :-/)

    The concern for building crews for long voyages is that between the confined space (traumatic to primates), the long term and the need to succeed (failure is not an option), the West seems to have decided collectively that only a well-balanced, dedicated and well adjusted crew could "make it" for several years.

    To which I say, Balls.

    Here's why. Buddhist meditation is all ANYONE needs to spend multiple years comfortably stowed away like living cargo, despite all fear, pain and unexpected influences (short of a meteorite through the head). Meditation can be done anywhere and costs nothing (particularly, calories, oxygen). Furthermore, it is a process which adds to the strength of the meditator.

    I suppose that the Pentagon and others may balk at sending astronauts on a mission with orders to "meditate when you get stressed out" on the grounds that religion and science are *not* to be mixed. Not to mention, do you think prince dubya would want to send anything other than christians up there if he could? "God" forbid they get to mars and radio back, "God exists, and he's not a christian".

    Sure, most of us Slashdotters would volunteer our lives for a one-way trip. All things considered, it seems obvious to me (with only about 6 months experience of research in meditation) that ANYONE properly guided in meditation could not only make the long cold confined trip, but also make it *comfortably*, quietly, and lose nothing of their dedication to teh mission.

    Are you listening, NASA?

    --
    "A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
    "d'Oh!" ~Homer
    1. Re:I'll go.(READ ME, NASA!!) by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      Amen to that...

      Or rather Ommmmmm...

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  52. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whereas, I would argue that NASA doesn't work because it is government.

    I think you've demonstrated your complete lack of understanding about how market based systems work. Technologies do not just "appear" in the public sector because a company got around to creating it, there's an economic drive between companies to outperform one another, to create the widget with more features, to tap the untapped desires of customers.

    The airplane was developed by private citizens, as well as the telephone, the radio... and we allow the free markets to get a hold of these devices, and tweak the heck out of them. Bad reception? well our brand has a better antenna design, so it's clearer... Well, ours runs on fewer batteries, ours is lighter to carry, etc etc. That's innovation driven by the desires of the customers, and its led to better materials science, better chemistry, better everything.

    If you let government be the filter through which all spaceflight must occur, then you have added such a layer of regulation you might as well just shoot yourself in the foot for another 40 years. Heck, John Romero's Armadillo Aerospace has to get environmental burn rate permissions just to run a test flight of his rocket out in the middle of nowhere... now how is the private industry supposed to be creative when they have to deal with government crap like that?

    1. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you've demonstrated your complete lack of understanding about how market based systems work. Technologies do not just "appear" in the public sector because a company got around to creating it, there's an economic drive between companies to outperform one another, to create the widget with more features, to tap the untapped desires of customers.

      An excellent analysis of how an ideal market works, but I didn't see anything about motivating basic science.

      The airplane was developed by private citizens, as well as the telephone, the radio...

      The Wright brothers did indeed create the first airplane. However, air transport and related industries also recieved decades of federal subsidies untill they matured.

      Besides, the Wright brothers already had a profitable business, as bicycle makers. They certainly didn't pass up the chance to cash in on their invention. However, they built their flying machine because they had the desire, creativity, and intelligence to do it.

      and we allow the free markets to get a hold of these devices, and tweak the heck out of them. Bad reception? well our brand has a better antenna design, so it's clearer... Well, ours runs on fewer batteries, ours is lighter to carry, etc etc. That's innovation driven by the desires of the customers, and its led to better materials science, better chemistry, better everything.

      Market forces place far more emphasis on improving exisiting products and services than creating new ones. Just as many fundemental advances have come from non-profit motivated organizations.

      If you let government be the filter through which all spaceflight must occur, then you have added such a layer of regulation you might as well just shoot yourself in the foot for another 40 years. Heck, John Romero's Armadillo Aerospace has to get environmental burn rate permissions just to run a test flight of his rocket out in the middle of nowhere... now how is the private industry supposed to be creative when they have to deal with government crap like that?

      Who said the governement would always be the sole-source of space travel? One thing I agree with in the report is that part of NASA's goal should be increasing the private space industry. Ideally, government research organizations should be doing the things that aren't immediately profitable, but have potential pay-off in the long term. The results should be passed on to the private sector, so if anyone later thinks of a way to use them profitably they can.

      If you bother to look it up it is the EPA that set emission standards, not NASA. However, so far such regulations haven't stoped either Romeno, Rutan, or any other serious X-Prize team. What was your point?

      As for regulations in general, have you ever heard of the theory "your rights end where another persons begin"? I do agree that the current regulations should be re-evaluated and simplified, but not regulating launchs at all is a disaster waiting to happen. Please remember that while anyone has the right to gamble with their lives, they don't have the same right to endanger other people.

      To put it another way, remember "all things good in moderation." Excessive regualtions may stifle development. Yet, I believe the backlash from collisions commerical or private planes and crashs in populated areas would be just as bad for a nascent private space industry.

  53. Re:Agreed, there are more viable scientific fronti by nyekulturniy · · Score: 1

    One thing I've learned over the years is that a business should stick to its core competencies. Trying to branch out into other fields, even related fields, fails more often than succeeds. If Lockheed and Boeing stick to defense contracts and Big Iron, it will work for them. Let other companies rise up to do the related space work.

    --
    Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
  54. wake up nasa-haters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Everyone bashing nasa in replies to this review should take a moment to grep the kernel source and notice that a lot of code has been submitted and maintained by nasa employees. The beowulf code also originated from nasa employees, among other significant contributions to the linux community.

  55. real question: are the writer's incompetent ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you see that Carli Fiorina is one of the authors of this report, do you really believe they took the best and brightest to write this aimless and irrelevant POS ? Some people don't think so. Getting advice from somebody who has led one of the most dastardly industrial reorganization is not a good omen for how NASA should change.

  56. Give me a rocket... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give me a rocket and a space capsule with enough food and air. I would go land on the surface even if there wasn't much of a chance of coming back. If you got a few dozen people to do the same thing shelters could be built and a community started on the surface of Mars. I am sure there would be many other people that would be fighting for a chance to go. Just tell me where to sign that I wouldn't hold NASA/the government responsible for my death.

  57. NASA Needs Bill W.'s 12-Step Program by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems to me that the Aldridge Commission report is just taking the next logical step in carving up NASA, considering how much NASA had ignored the strategic survival plans from the two prior commissions.

    After all, if in 1986 they tell you that you had a car accident due to your drinking, then in 1990 they tell you your driving is still terrible, then we can only conclude that when you have another inept DUI accident in 2002 that it's time to restrict your driving to "work only".

    NASA has proven itself to be a poor repository of space vision. And we can see with increasing clarity that it is also a poor place to put your technological hopes for SSTO, solar power stations, lunar and asteroid mining, and overall Human habitation in space.

    I can't blame NASA for all of this, however; we must also point at the money-fickle Congress. NASA has earned good marks with the thing they were allowed to pursue in good faith and budgeting, that being the interplanetary probes. We may as well relegate them to that so they can (to borrow that hated modern phrase) "concentrate on their core competency". I'd leap for actual joy if NASA was reduced to a "National Space Exploration Administration", which would design equipment, build probes, contract to have them launched, and then manage and track them with the DSN.

    --
    [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    1. Re:NASA Needs Bill W.'s 12-Step Program by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1
      I can't blame NASA for all of this, however; we must also point at the money-fickle Congress. NASA has earned good marks with the thing they were allowed to pursue in good faith and budgeting, that being the interplanetary probes. We may as well relegate them to that so they can (to borrow that hated modern phrase) "concentrate on their core competency". I'd leap for actual joy if NASA was reduced to a "National Space Exploration Administration", which would design equipment, build probes, contract to have them launched, and then manage and track them with the DSN.


      I think that's the best idea for NASA I've ever heard. It's not a perfect record, but they have done great things with space probes. Vehicles are already privatized enough to not need NASA's direction, and in fact seems to be in a desperate race to show NASA up. The best thing the government may be able to do for space travel is finding out what is out there (and what's worth going to get).
      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  58. Commission recommendations not so good? by GileadGreene · · Score: 1
    It seems a little bizarre to me that most of the commission's recommendations for NASA boil down to "you need to do things more like the DoD". The reason it seems bizarre is that the matra in DoD space circles for the last couple of years has been "space is broken" - i.e. many of the programs are sadly over-budget, over-schedule, or otherwise screwed up.

    Perhaps the intention is to emulate the practices that the DoD is trying to use to fix their space problems. But these practices have had limited implementation so far, and its not clear that they actually help at all. Besides, having seen first-hand how many DoD space programs (including some of extreme national importance) are run, I'm not sure that the DoD is necessarily the best model to be following. I won't even get into how idiotic the whole "systems-of-systems" buzzword/fad is.

    As an aside, I wonder if one of the reasons for the commission's recommendation to spin off the NASA centers into FFRDCs is Aldridge's experience as the president of a space-focused FFRDC (The Aerospace Corporation).

  59. it was this by mnemonic_ · · Score: 1

    It was a project in the 50s for "gun launch" delivery system. Not to be confused with the ongoing HAARP.

  60. The Hell! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Planets belong to whoever can secure and colonize them. That means America.

  61. Just be quiet by mnemonic_ · · Score: 1

    "We need to lower launch costs"

    That's like saying about AIDS spreading in third world nations, "we need to stop people from dying." Is there anyone who doesn't know that launch costs are expensive? That flow of multimillion dollar bills for getting satellites into orbit is kinda hard to miss.

    The rest of your post is just stating the obvious. You say that researching new propulsion tech is hard and expensive. Wow, great insight there. Then you go on to rattle off a list of exotic methods as if they form some panacea to the cost issue. They're mostly based on sound concepts, but all of them are very far from actual employment (except perhaps a fission engine) and throwing a billion dollars at each one isn't going to turn them from engineering daydreams into working spacecraft any time soon. "Hey, here's a way of making energy cheap and clean; use fusion!" Well sir, that's a bit easier said than done.

    In the end you're just trolling for karma in the great game of Slashdot. You state something pseudo-insightful (to a relatively uninformed audience), sprinkle about some "know-it-all" terms then close with a cheeky liberal appeal that the moderators (who of course are also typical /. users) are so fond of. Give me a break. Your post makes me think of the failures of rule by the masses; mostly uninformed, sometimes sensational and based more on desire rather than rational need or deep understanding.

  62. Timelines - mundane and geeky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Here's an idealized timeline:

    2005 - designing the CEV
    2010 - testing CEV, moon probes, ISS finished
    2015 - CEV routinely services ISS, 1st CEV to the moon and back.
    2020 - Moon base has been established, mining and manufacturing experiments, Mars probes
    2025 - O2, water and metal mined on moon.
    2030 - Mars ship launches - modified Zubrin plan using Lunar O2, small nuclear reactors for power. O2 tanks being made on the moon.
    2035 - After three successful missions, President calls for a permanent Mars base.
    2045 - Mars Base launches - several robotic and finally a crewed mission of "colonists" - six carefully picked scientists who will stay for 5 years.

    Here's a more interesting timeline:

    2005 - designing the CEV, XPrise awarded to Scaled Composites.

    2010 - 3rd disaster grounds shuttle, CEV not ready yet, ISS not finished, Scaled Composites tourist service is wildly popular - space enthusiasts use lotteries to get a chance to go.

    2015 - CEV finally flying to ISS, way over budget, warnings that various compromises make it less safe than hoped. Moon resource probes operating. ISS declared complete, but lots of failing components. Scaled Composites testing 2nd generation tour ships for ultra-high speed terrestrial transport and 2nd stage micro-launch.

    2020 - CEV missions to moon, permanent base delayed by funding and safety issues. TeleRobotic probes doing lunar mining & manufacturing experiments. Private micro-robot launched by Scaled Composites survives impact on moon, sends back video showing Adidas logo.

    2025 Lunar base finally established, lunar robots depositing ultra-large array telescope on far side. ISS closed, will transfer to lunar orbit as emergency base. Mars resource probe launched (fails - too many corners cut). "Open Source" lunar micro-robots attempting duplication of NASA robotic mining/manufacturing methods on the cheap.

    2030 Lunar mining and manufacturing done by teleoperated robots, exploration done by humans. Mars resource explorer finds ice. Mars ship designed - controversy over nuclear reactor. Scaled Composites launches its first true orbital excursion. Open source microbots building "Open Base 1" - teleoperated mining and mini-manufacturing facility - aim to make bigger robots and O2 tanks and half of a lunar launch vehicle.

    2035 Mars ship components being launched - mix of human/telerobot assembly - no nuclear reactor. O2 and O2 tanks manufactured on Moon - O2 launch craft availability delays Mars launch. Open Lunatic Society announces competitive lunar O2 supply and crude launcher availability. (NASA ignores them after citing "safety concerns"). OLS reacts by announcing their own Mars mission. Scaled Composites launches first lunar orbit excursion, contracting with OLS for return O2.

    2040 - Mars mission returns - a success, lots of good science. OLS launches Open Mars Probe, renames itself Open Space Lunatics, starts telerobotic assembly of Mars ship in lunar orbit. SC transports 1st guests to tiny Lunar Hilton - mostly constructed from OSL tanks by OSL telerobots, finished by a human SC crew. OSL holds a lottery to send a member with first tourists. OSL reveals he'll be staying on moon, working with telerobots on an OSL manned base adjacent to Hilton.

    2045 Second NASA Mars mission. OSL moon base has crew of 6 humans, 500 telerobots. OSL -SC Mars mission launches with crew of 3 and a small therm-ionic nuclear reactor using lunar radioactives, plan to stay 3 years, partially by scavenging equipment left by NASA - no way home, depend on follow-up OLS mission! OSL launches robotic re-supply mission 2 years later.

    2050 NASA announces official Mars colonization plan, launches 3rd Mars expedition with crew of 5. OSL-SC send crew of 7 to Mars later that year. One of original crew and four of new crew will stay on Mars permanently. OSL martian manufacturing turning out storage tanks, fuel and O2 for return ship. Martian farm supplies food for five. Lunar OSL base has 20 permanent staff, turning out heavy components to minimize earth launch costs. Earth launch costs by SC are down to $200/kg, but they mainly carry passengers and small cargoes. Space elevator finally under construction.

  63. Antarctica comparison and privateering in spac by jesterzog · · Score: 1

    In the case of Antarctica, maybe that's a good thing - it's a nice lab, but it's pretty small and can't sustain a tourism industry.

    As long as you mean small in terms of population and infrastructure then I agree with you. Antarctica is definitely not small in area, though. It also does have a tourism industry if you do want to go there, and think it's fair to say that Antarctica is much more hospitable than the Moon or Mars. (I know I'm nitpicking.)

    It wouldn't take that much to change Antarctica from it's natural state, but the biggest irony is that its environment is (arguably) changing as a direct result of people who live in a relative minority of geographic locations around Earth... most not even on the same side of the planet.

    It'd certainly be possible to completely mess up other planets by only touching a minor part of them, too. That's exactly why NASA goes to such great lengths to steralise spacecraft that go near places like Europa.

    I guess whether or not a minority of private citizens should have a right to take the resources and change the state of somewhere like Mars or the asteroids overnight, after it's taken billions of years for them to get to where it is, is a separate issue. Personally I think we should be very careful before allowing it to happen. In a sense, though, short term profit at the expense of unreplacable resources is what spearheads colonisation in traditional western society. Going to the "new world" to terrorise and rob from existing civilisations is just one example throughout history.

    I do think that it's premature to assume that private colonisation of these places won't create problems just because it'd take a long time to populate the entire surface. Once economies of scale got going in what is comparatively a small area of the Earth's surface, it didn't take that long to start having global negative consequences on the environment involving everyone and everything that either lives/exists in it or will in the future. Once the technology is available and cheap enough, I don't see any real reason why a minority of privateers won't start abusing all of the resources around the Solar System at the longer term expense. With the exception of a few token government-related expiditions, the people who would quickly destroy as much as possible in exchange for fast money are likely to be the first through the door.

  64. multi source it then by zogger · · Score: 1

    Then perhaps a little private industry co operation "multi sourcing". If it was just one part, perhaps another company someplace else could have made it. I don't know but it seems possible. I guess my main thought is to use an international distributed effort, whomever can do the job best for the best price gets that piece of it. I'd just like to see politics and governmental bureaucracies stripped out of the efforts as much as possible is all.

  65. painfully obvious conclusions reached at nasa! by LifesABeach · · Score: 0

    the 'golden rule': he who has the gold, makes the rules.

    is there somebody that can persaude red china to step up its human space program?

  66. important? by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    And what you claim is truly important... are you not merely indicating what you have convinced yourself is important?

    Nike, Tickle-Me-Elmo (DIE!!), and modern yachts, are all the beneficiaries of space research's new materials. Perfume might be as well (does NASA do research on emulsions?). Don't underestimate how far the benefits of space research can reach.