Walmart Stored Value Cards Compromised

morcheeba writes "It appears that Walmart's pre-paid gift cards have been hacked. Customers are buying cards and finding that criminals have already emptied them of value. It seems someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration data, and can create clones of recently activated cards. (via engadget)"

Comments

What't the penalty for this?

[LeahofRivendell]

That is, in the ideal world where criminals could in no way pay off the court system with tons of stolen money

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's probably not illegal. If walmart wants to sell snapple bottlecaps for $20 and accept them in their store to buy $20, it's not anyone's problem if their scheme doesn't work as intended. If they want legal protection from the government, they should use Federal Reserve Notes as their "gift cards". (i.e. let someone else worry about forgery and fraud)

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[gl4ss]

* It's probably not illegal. If walmart wants to sell snapple bottlecaps for $20 and accept them in their store to buy $20, it's not anyone's problem if their scheme doesn't work as intended.*

where do you live, in a fairytale world where comic book legal logic prevails? of course it's illegal, probably goes under fraud too and depending on how it was done maybe some misuse of power or illegal telecommunications interception.

or perhaps you say that stolen calling cards are legal to use as well and that it's legal to use credit card numbers you found from google? and that shoplifting is legal if you just manage to get out of the store? and that hacking into a bank is legal since they put their computer on the internet and you only used public protocols? sorry but that kind of logic only gets you in jail where you'd belong if you did those things.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[abb3w]

It's probably not illegal.

Um.... such Gift Cards appears to be a form of Debit card (and in some cases are exactly that), and would to my casual glance be prosecutable as fraud, and investigated by the Secret Service.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[wcdw]

Stored value cards are _NOT_ the same as debit cards, in many important respects. For one, the customer CANNOT get cash from the card.

Stored value cards are classed exactly the same as paper gift certificates, as that is what they are. (They are also subject to escheet laws in most states.)

I was part of a small team which created the first such card - Blockbusters - and am still amazed at how fast they've proliferated.

http://www.theboyz.biz/ - Your source for computers, parts and more!

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are also subject to escheet laws in most states

I am from eSpain and I am offended by your use of an eswear word in that esentence.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[TykeClone]

Debit cards are highly regulated - especially as to what the consumers' rights are with respect to fraud. Walmart is not (yet) a bank, and as such they don't fall under the same regulation that controls debit cards.

They would probably be well within their rights to tell the consumers to beat it - not that it would be a good business practice to do so.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[wade-o-potato]

They can get cash back depending on the State they are issued in.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[roastedMnM]

"For one, the customer CANNOT get cash from the card."

Actually you can at walmart.

. they just won't tell you that you can unless you really (really really) demand it....

(my credentials do not involve inventing "gift cards" but simply that my "work through college" [even though that is not possible anymore] is at walmart.)

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[abb3w]

Stored value cards are classed exactly the same as paper gift certificates, as that is what they are.

Possibly; however, did you read 18 USC 47 sec 1029? In particular, Subsection e.1:

the term ''access device'' means any card, plate, code, account number, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, personal identification number, or other telecommunications service, equipment, or instrument identifier, or other means of account access that can be used, alone or in conjunction with another access device, to obtain money, goods, services, or any other thing of value, or that can be used to initiate a transfer of funds (other than a transfer originated solely by paper instrument) [Empasis added]

Paper gift certificates, if accessable digitally by an account number, would also seem to be covered here, as well as gift cards.

Of course, you may be right about the legal distinctions between a true stored value card and a debit card; I believe laws on refund of any remaining balance is regulated by the individual states, and rules do vary.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[abb3w]

Walmart is not (yet) a bank, and as such they don't fall under the same regulation that controls debit cards.

Perhaps. I was told by an employee of Barnes and Noble, however, that B&N cards are actually issued and run by AMEX. (Anyone able to give details?) If WalMart has a similar arrangement with one AMEX/VISA/MC/DISC (probably Discover, since that's the only card Sam's Club takes last I checked), they might still fall under the regulations by another route.

They would probably be well within their rights to tell the consumers to beat it - not that it would be a good business practice to do so.

For one thing, antsy consumers might then call their congresscritters to agitate for that correcting that lack of similar regulation.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[TykeClone]

Earlier in the thread, it was said that Walmart's gift cards are not issued by an outside vendor - they're issued by Walmart itself. I really don't think that they'd fall under the regulations that control normal debit cards.

I agree on your second point. Walmart is just about the Microsoft of retail and they've got to start being fairly careful how they tread lest they tick off some pointy headed beaureaucrat.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[abb3w]

Earlier in the thread, it was said that Walmart's gift cards are not issued by an outside vendor - they're issued by Walmart itself. I really don't think that they'd fall under the regulations that control normal debit cards.

Right. In that case, the cards would still legally fall under 18 USC 47 s. 1029 (as an access device that can be used to obtain goods/services) with regards to the crime being fraud, but probably not with regard to to consumers getting refunds. But I'm not a lawyer, and WallyWorld has plenty of 'em. =)

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[TykeClone]

Right. In that case, the cards would still legally fall under 18 USC 47 s. 1029 (as an access device that can be used to obtain goods/services) with regards to the crime being fraud, but probably not with regard to to consumers getting refunds. But I'm not a lawyer, and WallyWorld has plenty of 'em. =)

And they're still not under the banking regulations (Reg E, and maybe some others?) that apply to normal debit and credit cards.

Re:What't the penalty for this?

[Maestro4k]

• Stored value cards are _NOT_ the same as debit cards, in many important respects. For one, the customer CANNOT get cash from the card.

Wal-mart's corporate policy is they can be cashed out in full at any time so how would that affect their classification?

Most people don't know they can cash them out but it's trivial to do (I worked at a Wal-mart for a few years while hunting for new IT work). Just go to the service desk and tell them you'd like to cash the card out. They have to get a CSM or Manager to do an override to allow it (this is mainly for security purposes, for instance to make sure the card is physically there) which is why it's best to do it at the service desk. (Not to mention the service desk employees are more likely to know that it can be done, the cashiers might not.)

There are actually quite a few things that are customer-friendly at Wal-mart that most people don't know about. It's not so much that Wal-mart doesn't want them to know, they just don't bother to advertise them much. For instance if you buy a Sanyo TV the in store warranty is for a full year instead of the 90 days on other TVs. Most employees even don't realize this in fact. You'd think Wal-mart would make sure to advertise this fact as most people would prefer to have the full warranty in store and be more likely to buy their TVs at Wal-mart. From a profit perspective they make pretty much the same on any TV, regardless of brand.

• I was part of a small team which created the first such card - Blockbusters - and am still amazed at how fast they've proliferated.

Kudos to you then, they're a great idea. The Wal-mart here has a gas station so I use a shopping card to budget my gas each month. I find it far easier to keep to budget this way since I can't spend the gas money anywhere except at Wal-mart or the gas station there. When I worked at Wal-mart I'd use one to pay for snacks/drinks on breaks. It was a lot easier and quicker (very important when it takes 5 minutes to get to the damn break room) than other methods. I'm not surprised they've taken off like that have though, they made gift certificates much easier for people to buy/give/use and easier for the retailer to sell.

I think it's an inside job

[plover]

This has to be someone hacking from the inside of Walm*rt. Maybe not an employee, but it sure looks like someone is inside their network.

First, look at how gift cards work. Many retailers use the model where their gift card records in their database created upon activation. This means they don't even ask the manufacturers for a list of "cards printed"; they simply direct the manufacturer to produce "a million cards in this number sequence, label them $20," that sort of thing. The value is added when the record is created at issuance. I'm assuming Walm*rt is operating in a similar fashion.

It's theoretically safe, because a shoplifted card isn't redeemable. The cards never actually "store" their value, all the value is located only in the database (more correctly, the value is in the ability to redeem from the database.)

So, if someone is redeeming the cards in a distant state just hours after issuance, they're doing it by sniffing the data real-time, somewhere on the inside of Walm*rt's systems. The article implies that the thief knows when the card is issued, and cashes it in within hours. Cashing the cards in distant states implies network access to at least run the scam (although that may be an email to a conspirator.) The fact that the victims were located in different states implies the perpetrators either have central access to the database involved, or have access to the POS systems that are selling and activating the cards.

The points of access are numerous. This could be happening in the POS registers, the store POS servers, the networking gear, the central authorizing servers, the central sales logging servers, or the database. It could be someone in their security group looking at electronic journals on-line. It could be a hacker in the parking lot with 802.11 gear telnetting to any of the above equipment, emailing card info to his buddies. The redemption is probably being done via "forged" cards, which might be as simple as printing a barcode on a sticker, covering the existing barcode, and then keeping the cards after redeeming them to hide the evidence. A smart thief would redeem $149 on a $150 card to keep the card with the $1 balance on it in his pocket.

That's a lot of ground to cover for their investigators. Given their M.O. I can think of a few traps they can set to catch these guys, but they're probably going to take time to implement. And with the high probability of an inside job, who do you trust in their systems end to help you catch the bad guys?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[gl4ss]

I agree(probably someon on the inside).. no other way for it to be several times at the same store otherwise..

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Quarters]

First, look at how gift cards work. Many retailers use the model where their gift card records in their database created upon activation. This means they don't even ask the manufacturers for a list of "cards printed"; they simply direct the manufacturer to produce "a million cards in this number sequence, label them $20," that sort of thing. The value is added when the record is created at issuance. I'm assuming Walm*rt is operating in a similar fashion.

More and more stores are selling cards with no value displayed on them. When you buy one it is blank and the person at the register adds both activation information and the value at the time the card is purchased. The cards on the racks are essentially blank.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[nacturation]

More and more stores are selling cards with no value displayed on them. When you buy one it is blank and the person at the register adds both activation information and the value at the time the card is purchased.

A key example of this is how the Starbucks cards work. You can choose to put $10 on it, or $100, or $8.13 or whatever. It runs down, you just add more funds to it much like a debit card.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[dagoalieman]

I wonder why they can't follow the money... they run these things like credit cards, I would assume there's a log somewhere of the transactions.

Is there a geographical correspondence to where these cards are emptied? Or online?? Get an ip address, subpoena- this sorta stuff isn't taken lightly by the feds anymore.

Or better yet.. can they spot the activation locations.. do THOSE have a correspondence?

It seems to me this case would be simple to solve with some minor investigation of the data. And logs (which can be enabled if they aren't already.)

The only odd thing here is the case went public. Usually you keep these silent until you have a firm suspect. They're easier to catch if they keep at the same routine, instead of getting scared off to not return for a while. I'm guessing they pretty much already have this guy in hand...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[danharan]

At the very least, any time someone redeems a card within hours of purchase and at a distance that is farther than you would expect someone to be able to travel - there should be an alarm set off.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

I know a little bit about Wal-Mart's Networking layout.

Your typical store has at least 6 sets of switches: UPC office (where the servers are kept), GM (general Merchandise), GRC (Grocery), Garden Center, PICS (In the electronics Department, and Receiving. These switches are laid out into at least 3 vlans: POS, Non POS, and Wireless. By Default, the POS vlans are set to ports 1-12 on the switch. The switches are connected by a fiber backbone that usually involves two separate physical routes...so if one is cut, the other will be able to pick up the load. They're concnentrated to some cisco routers, and it'll go out either a 56K modem line or a T1 line, using a Hughes Sattelite link as a backup.

You've got your usual mixture of IBM Cash register controllers (CC and DD), what they call their "SMART" system (I think it's running a flavor of AIX), BOSS (Best Optical Selling System), MMS (Multi-Media Server, runs the Wal-mart TV Network), and a few others.

It's trivial to get into a UPC office to gain access to these things. Most stores don't check ID's, let alone work orders. Default passwords are commonplace ("ma5t3r", "9052/9052" and the like), and it's very easy to get an employee to Log in for you if needed. WalMart keeps printed logs of just about every transaction that is created, as well as in electronic form.

If it were an inside job (which I doubt knowing the intellect of most Wal-Mart Workers. Do you want to be the squiggly?), all someone would have to do is gain access to the UPC office, bring yer good ole' hub, a WAP, and volia....no one would ever notice (usually because there are boxes stacked in the UPC offices, and well, no one really has a clue to what really needs to be in there, anyway).

(Posted AC to protect my job)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[maeka]

Redeeming all but a few dollars on a card is a good idea I hadn't thought about but (if Wal Mart is smart) it isn't going to be enough to save the theives' asses.

IANAWME but I do know that the cleaner American big-box discount retailer (think red) video captures every credit card transaction and I don't think it's going very far out on a limb to assume they do the same with gift cards. If Wally World does the same it will be only a matter of days before the crooks are caught...unless they are running this like the old cloned-cellphone game where the crooks sell the cloned goods, but don't actually use them personally.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

I'm pretty sure the case wasn't publicised by Walm*rt. I can't think of a single benefit they'd get by announcing to the world "our gift card customers are getting screwed." This was made public by an annoyed customer who went to her local TV station, and the reporter did a bit more digging (just like they're supposed to!)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[kwandar]

Lets presume its not an inside job.

So they simply print up in duplicate, a bunch of Walmart cards, and stock the store with sequentially numbered cards. I mean what Walmart employee would notice you "adding" cards, which are non-redeemable anyway?

Then they simply do a daily inventory of the cards that have been purchased, email their co-conspirator in another state and use their duplicate card to redeem the card. Voila!

It doesn't seem that difficult - mind you, the simplest explanation is an inside job.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[SealBeater]

Replying to the post about how Wal-Mart gift cards work, I've noticed this
cards before. (This is all speculation, I read the article) One possiblity
is that, the person doing this, for instance, has a bar code printer (if
their smart). If they are stupid, they have an in on the database, and are
transferring the credit to their card, then using it. Easy to track even if
Wal-Mart isn't logging transactions, and even tho I agree that their probably
stupid, big companies are usually smart to pay lots of money for security
(expensive != good, of course). So, they print out a card, (or a sticker for a
card) go to a store, buy it up. Looks like they are sticking to a store in
Cali, so unless they are reading slashdot, they are screwed if they go there
too often, unless they have a crew (have a girl, makes guys stupid) and even
then, they are screwed, it'll just take longer.

As for the sniffing idea, well shit, every Wal-Mart I've seen has at least 4
WAPs with antenees. Good ones too, Cisco 1500s which pump out a lot more power
than linksys (at least the default ones). I can't imagine that the registers
(which have to send info over the wire somewhere) send them encrypted or
anything like that. Personally, I'm surprised that we are just now hearing
about it.

Oh, and don't be surprised if this going at any number of stores. I see WAPs
everywhere. Brave New World.

SealBeater

Re:I think it's an inside job

[idiot900]

If it were an inside job (which I doubt knowing the intellect of most Wal-Mart Workers. Do you want to be the squiggly?)

It's easy enough, then, to be a networking pro and get a job as a Walmart drone by just not putting your qualifications on the application? If one's new coworkers are then as stupid as you imply, running an inside job such as this doesn't sound too difficult.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[hendridm]

Not only that, but if you've ever looked up at a Walmart, you'll notice they have about a 1:1 ratio of black bubbles to checkout lanes. I'd dare to say every square inch of the store is under surveillance. The database should give them a time the card was used and at which register. They'd just need to find a camera that was pointing in that vicinity.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[s7uar7]

I think we have a suspect. Mr Coward, would you mind stepping this way please.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[sharkey]

This could be happening in the POS registers, the store POS servers,

There's the problem right there. You shouldn't try to run a business on a piece of shit.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree(probably someon on the inside).. no other way for it to be several times at the same store otherwise

Not at all. It's trivial for an 'outsider' to do it!

Step 1) Copy down a bunch of Gift Card's serial numbers. Just grab them off the rack, go to a quiet area of the store, write them down (or read the numbers into a tape recorder, or swipe them into a card reader). Then replace the cards.

Etep 2) Call the automated 1-800 number onthe back of the card and see if those cards have any value on them. If not, skip to the next card. If they DO have value on them, proceed to step 3.

Step 3) Take a gift card, and re-write the magnetic strip on the back, so it has the number of the card that has money on it.

Step 4) Go to the store and buy stuff with the card. It is unlikely the cashier will compare the number onthe card with the number that prints on the receipt.

Like I said- Trivial. And it easily explains why it was several fromthe same store, too.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[penguinoid]

Customers don't take lightly to getting srewed over. Personally I think that this news story coming out is worse for Wallmart than if they had let customers who were screwed over keep their money.

What the fuck are gift cards for, anyways? Me, I like cold hard cash (or cache).

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

As you can plainly see from the IP records, that was obviously not my post. It was made only minutes from the last Anonymous Coward posting, but was from several states away.

Investigators are looking into the matter.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

if you've ever looked up at a Walmart...They'd just need to find a camera that was pointing in that vicinity.

To get a picture of the top of the guy's head???

Re:I think it's an inside job

[jkeyes]

that wouldn't work because the card serial numbers have the golden stuff you have to scratch off with your finger nail.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[gl4ss]

they know where they have been cashed and when, and are probably trying to track the guy down with the police.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[FLEB]

That might not work, though, as I'd imagine the database knows the numbers of which cards were printed (or has at least enough sense to not make sequential numbers valid).

An alternate theory, though:

Someone shoplifts a pile of unused cards (or "borrows" them from a stock pile, if they're staff), scans and dupes them, then re-glues and re-shelves them at the store. Wait a few days for the cards to get bought (especially effective if you planned it right just before a holiday), and use the dupes to buy stuff.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[gasgesgos]

I was a wal-mart employee... they don't record very much at all... you see the little black bubbles on the ceilings in a store? about 80% of those are empty, and the ones they do record aren't reviewed unless something's seriously wrong... wal-mart keeps prices low by not video taping every credit card transaction and by pretending they have security... if they happen to lose a small amount because of crappy security, oh well... it's a drop in the bucket compared with store profits (the store I worked at took in a little over a million dollars day during the week after thanksgiving) ...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[CodeMaster]

Don't overrule smart "consumers". As you pointed out they simply direct the manufacturer to produce a million cards in this number sequence The numbers ARE sequential (to some degree - they do need to pass some mod10 check or alike - not too different than credit cards), which means - you only ned one card number, and then a way to check the status of other numbers (available online). To redeem at store - get hold of a mag stripe writer and just use the same card (nicely branded) with your new numbers.

Also - many retailers have the cards just lying around the store - flip them over and if you are lucky (B&N, Borders, CVS, etc...) the card number is just there. Write it down, and wait for someone to activate it (buy it). the rest is up to you.

Again - all you have to do is be an observant shoper - what do the cards look like, are they sequential, is the card numbered covered with a scratch-off (better security), etc... Because most of these gift cards ride on the Visa/MC/AMEX networks, they have to conform to these rules, thus have easily guessable numbers, stupid PIN numbers etc...

Just my $0.02

get a free ipod! This really works... Only one GMAil invite left!...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Cereal Box]

Can you explain the "Walm*rt" thing? Are you one of those people that believes that Wal-Mart is the most evil corporation to ever exist and therefore think its name should be treated like a bad word?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the magnetic stripe inaccessible, too?

or swipe them into a card reader

Re:I think it's an inside job

[gasgesgos]

I'd dare to say every square inch of the store is under surveillance.
I'd say about 100 square feet of the store is under surveillance...

You see 20 registers and 20 black bubbles...
2 of those have cameras...
1 might be recorded...
there's probably someone watching them only on a very high volume weekend.


I worked in a wal-mart for a number of years, the bubbles are to scare people, like the "security tag detectors" on the doors...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[fredklein]

Not all retailers hide their card numbers. Besides, it just takes a few people not noticing the number is already 'scratched' for this to work.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[jrockway]

Those security tag detectors aren't fake. I remember walking into Shit-mart once when my new jacket set the thing off. I was in fifth grade but was treated like I was some serial killer. "How did you steal that little kid?"

They didn't seem to understand that there are other stores in the world. I bought it somewhere else and they didn't take the tag out!!

Anyway, I won't set foot in a walmart to this day. I didn't need that abuse then and I'm not going to risk it again. Morons.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[jrockway]

point of sale, not piece of shit. It's IBM equipment, which is usually pretty good :)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[AsnFkr]

I know how this is being done, our local Walmart has a big problem with this over the last holiday, and after some investigation they figured out how it was being done. Here's the know-how:

Quick background:
-None of the "amount data" is stored on the gift card. It's all server side, interfaced by the cash registers when swiped. All the card has is a unique ID number to identify itself to the register when swiped.

-The cards used have credit card type stripes on the back, easily readable by *many* cheap swipe readers. http://www.barcodediscount.com/cats/credit-card-re aders/ You can also by rather cheap swipe formatters/programmers with a quick google.

-The cards are also sold on shells that anyone can get to, and they are on cardboard backing packaging where is it *very* easy to just bend the package and have full access to swiping the card.

The procedure:
-First the criminal buys a bunch of cards for the lowest possible amount. I think this is $5. They now have valid cards.

-Next the criminal takes a small Credit Card swiper into the store, grabs a hand full of the cards and swipes a ton of them..stores the card info into memory on the device or a small laptop/pda in their pocket or purse. then they place the card back on the shelf and go home.

-They go home and use the numbers they have taken from cards at the store and program them over the valid $5 card they had bought.

-A few days later, under the assumption that the cards they had copied have been legitimately sold and not yet used they go into the store with their copies and use them. All it takes to verify the card is working is to find a stupid wal-mart drone and ask them to scan it and tell you the worth of the card. As far as the cash register system is concerned the card is valid because it has a valid ID number. If it comes back with more than $5 on the card available for spending, they criminal wins. Spend the card and go on their way.

-Now when the actual owner of the card comes in it will appear to have been spent, as its ID number is the same as the one used by the criminal has been used, even though the card technically has not.

Its rather ingenious actually, and works best at Xmas. You scan cards the 15-23 assuming they will be activated and you will have a few days until they are spent (at least until the 25th) as they are popular Xmas gifts. It's also hard but not impossible to track the criminal, as you have to find the time of the transaction and dig up video of the transaction taking place...and most walmarts have rather shotty video quality at the registers, but the chance of getting caught in the act are slim and none. But if you do it, don't be surprised if cops show up at your door a week later. Snoogins.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

But why would you? Ripping someone off for $100-$150 at a time is not a very good way to get rich, it's a good way to caught.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming the cards at WalMart work like the ones at target, the balance can't be transfered. The only operations appear to be adding money to a particular card(associating the dollar value with the barcode on the back of the card) and spending the value on merchandice.

Are you sure that the WAPs are for the registers? At Target the registers are on twisted pair wire. It's probably ethernet, but IBM could still be using token ring. They may use the WAPs for the portable inventory control terminals. I don't think that the ones we had at Target were 802.11, but it might have been faster if they were. The Portable Data Terminals we used had no access to the gift card system, but since they just ran a telnet session to the store computer it might not be the same at WalMart.

The fact that they haven't found the person suggests that the gift cards look just like the real thing. The ones at Target have a fancy color picture on the front and have the number stamped onto the back in black ink. Melting off the old printing and printing a new barcode would be much easier than getting access to the central database .

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind all of the different vendor links that wal-mart has. It's not outside the realm of possibilty that a shady person at another company found a hole that allowed them into wal-marts network. In fact, there are some vendors that wal-mart uses that do, in fact, have access to things on the network at each individual store.

I would venture to guess that when Wal-mart launches their Financial Services (which they've been working on for a long time), there will be more money lost. Money transfer (like western union) most certainly is a very good incentive for a criminal to rip them off.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

This plot would make a great movie!

Under Siege 4: The Supermarket!

or how about:

Sting, Part 2

Re:I think it's an inside job

[idiot900]

But why would you?

For the intellectual challenge.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[tylernt]

1 million gross, of course. Standard retail markup is 35%, so that's "only" $350,000 net. Then subtract overhead (power bill, wages, etc). So the profit is still a hefty chunk 'o' change but not quite as spectacular as $1M.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

They have barcodes, not stripes, dummy.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in a wal-mart for a number of years, the bubbles are to scare people, like the "security tag detectors" on the doors...

You are either a liar or an idiot. You certainly didn't work in Loss Prevention at Wal-Mart and, well, regular employees aren't told jack about LP procedures. Everything you think you know is nothing more than rumor. Employee theft is a bad enough problem, but luckily most of them are people like you who think we're stupid and incompetent because they believe those rumors. As someone who currently does work in Wal-Mart LP I can assure you that every one of your "facts" is completely wrong. Every register has an active camera and every camera is recording. There is also full coverage of the store, and all of those are recording as well.

I'm not even going to comment on the Sensormatics.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[dr_labrat]

Not used to being in this position, but sorry, I'm British...

And no. I am not new around here. You are. (You are American,(Forgive nesting, but unless you are Indian.(feathers, not dots))(*thats*, netsting(brackets, not twigs(not that I dont like twigs)) i.e. you might be spanish, but even then thats later than many Vikings (who were here first (except for Native American Indians))), (But I divulge(with bad English, and punctuation).

Walm*rt

p
SO. Please explain the astersik....

Walmart, I am familiar with: its Asda. Pikey/chav Fortum and masons, much in the same way that burburrey is chav/essex tartan.

Are us geek brits to assume that there is a:

Wallm0rt

Wallm4rt

Wallm3rt

Wallmirt

C'maon.

Play Fa*r.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[kwandar]

Sounds like a plan! Walmart doesn't care if you shoplift the cards as they have no value until registered. Also saves the cost of duplication.

You could simply copy the mag stripe from each card.

The only real catch is knowing when the cards are purchased and if you were to shoplift complete racks of cards, and replace them, it would be easy enough to track. Inside help would of course make it easier, but it isn't necessary.

Almost make you think you should go into business! ;)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[MindStalker]

Wal-marts gift-cards cards work like debit cards, with magnetic strips you swipe at the credit card machine. It then subtracts the balance from the amount stored in "account", you can readd money into this card at any point and use it over and over again. Several walmarts have associated gas stations where you can use this card at the pump and get a discount also.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[gcaseye6677]

In most stores, it seems like the employees completely ignore the alarm when someone sets it off. The most I've ever seen them do is waive somebody through when they see that the person has a bag of merchandise in hand and has just left the register. Having worked in a $7 an hour sales job, I know what I would do if I suspected someone shoplifting - absolutely nothing. $7 an hour is not enough to risk a potentially dangerous confrontation. The main reason for sensors is to make people think they'll get caught shoplifting and to make management feel like they are doing something to prevent theft (maybe the store's insurance requires them). I'm sure they don't even begin to deter the serious professional thief.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[CodeMaster]

Good point,

One comment - the criminals would not be too likely to buy a bunch of $5 cards if they are going to swipe (and probably "swipe") a few cards at/from the store.
No one from Walmart cares if you walk out with a card that has not been really purchased since they are supposedly worthless...
You need the physical cards just so you can write the numbers of the ones left at the store on them. This makes the scam profitable from the first use of a number you swiped with value on it (instead of waiting to be in the black for a bunch of $5 cards...)

get a free ipod! This really works... Last Gmail invite left!...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[FFFish]

You write it as WalM*rt because Slashdot doesn't support the (tm) sign and because WalMart(TM) will stomp you into the ground if you use their name unlawfully.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Nogami_Saeko]

Then you buy one coffee with it, and it's empty again :)

The greatest thing (for the company) about those Starbucks "debit-style" cards is that people who are putting their money in them by charging them up, are effectively combining their money and giving Starbucks a big cash loan that Starbucks can keep in the bank and make interest from until you use eventually use them. So they get your money AND all of the interest made from your money. Keep the cash in your own account and keep your interest as well.

Great business technique.

N.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Your typical store has at least 6 sets of switches: UPC office (where the servers are kept), GM (general Merchandise), GRC (Grocery), Garden Center, PICS (In the electronics Department, and Receiving. These switches are laid out into at least 3 vlans: POS, Non POS, and Wireless. By Default, the POS vlans are set to ports 1-12 on the switch. The switches are connected by a fiber backbone that usually involves two separate physical routes...so if one is cut, the other will be able to pick up the load. They're concnentrated to some cisco routers, and it'll go out either a 56K modem line or a T1 line, using a Hughes Sattelite link as a backup.

So these 6 sets of switches are located in various places in the store? And there's a fiber backbone linking them all togheher?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[T-Ranger]

Except that Wallmart doesnt do anywhere near "standard retail markup". Im no expert, but Ive read Sam Waltons book. Paraphrased, Sam Waltons theory on setting prices is: everyone else charges the maxium possible; We charge the minimum possible to still survive. Mind you, some things have higher markups then others, those being (somewhat) defined by the manufacturer, DVDs, say.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[DAldredge]

Those WAPs are for the handheld terminals that the CSM's (Customer Service Managers use) and some of the Automotive depts also use the same wireless network for their workorder entry.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a squad of crack commandoes with assault rifles hiding in a bunker under the third register in every store too.

oh shit, I wasn't supposed to say that was I.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

I broke up with my girlfriend three years ago, and I hack walmart cards to screw her over every time she tries to buy something. ha ha! (I use gps trackers and hack the security cameras to figure out where she's going to shop)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that you're Anonymous Coward, I'd say pleading insanity would be a rock-solid defense.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[mrscorpio]

Who's using it unlawfully?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Kobayashi Maru]

Now imagine they deployed said system and you read a Slashdot article along the lines of "WalMart gift cards track shoppers movements."

It's a good idea, don't get me wrong, but you should realize you're suggesting the same kind of automated, computer-controlled heuristical overloard situation that is so loathed by the YRO crowd. This is why it is important to consider the technology we deploy carefully!

Re:I think it's an inside job

[jyoull]

Sam Walton died in 1992 and his book came out the same year.

Now, it's a friendly book y'all but it's also 13-year-old news. Wal*Mart is not in business to just survive. They're quite ruthless toward competitors, vendors, and even the cities in which they appear. The company devotes considerable energy to increasing its bottom line without too much worry about nicey nicey new age synergistic relationships, cuz it's a bit too powerful now to care about that stuff.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, maybe I'm not like the idiots who bitch about WalMart 'coming in and driving out Mom-n-Pop businesses', but then turn around and shop there anyway.

I've never been in a WalMart.

So forgive the FUCK out of me for not knowing exactly how their gift cards work. The gift cards I have seen have all had magnetic stripes. How else do they 'swipe it like a credit card' at the register?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[SealBeater]

Are you sure that the WAPs are for the registers?

I didn't mean to say that the WAPs for for the registers, merely that there are
WAPs present, and sooner or later, I'm sure, once you get on their network, you
can get in their network

SealBeater

Re:I think it's an inside job

[ppanon]

Are you related in any way to Noel? He was also funny and very creative.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Konowl]

I doubt this is true in the new stores...

I work for one of Wal-Mart's biggest competitors in Canada, and when we build a new store, every square inch of floor space is covered by a camera. About the only places NOT covered are bathrooms and changerooms.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

You're kidding yourself to think they don't have that information already.

What they probably don't have is an on-line alarm center that compares gift card issuance or redemption in the time and geographical fashion needed to catch this guy. Yet.

It would have been the first approach I'd have taken to solving this problem, at least if I worked for Walm*rt's authorizing systems area.

In a related note, have you ever been called by a Visa representative and asked something like "did you just purchase some computer equipment in Florida?" Visa already has a system like this in place today. They do track your shopping habits geographically, and if they get an authorization request for a large purchase outside of your "normal" range, it sets off alarm bells in their Fraud Detection unit.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[T-Ranger]

No, no just to survive. And that was an oversimplification, obviously. Walmart stores are large by themselvs, and there are lots of them. They sell a wide range of products in a wide range of markets. They make their money on volume. (that they invested early and heavily in, say distribution systems, IT, etc only means they have lower overhead, but I digress).

Those criticisims of WalMart may be true. I dont know. They have been around since before Sam Walton died, however. My point is that WalMart very much is interested in driving prices lower.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Security agent: "'ma5t3r'? That's stupid! That sounds like the password an idiot would use for their luggage!

President Skroob: That reminds me. Have the password changed on my luggage immediately!

Re:I think it's an inside job

[skraps]

So these 6 sets of switches are located in various places in the store? And there's a fiber backbone linking them all togheher?

Get with the times. :-) It's pretty common nowadays to have ethernet switches with a fiber ring uplink.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

That's a very real possibility.

A similar scam was perpetrated many, many years ago in banks. If you're old like me, you might remember that banks used to have blank deposit tickets piled up for their customers to fill out while waiting for the next available cashier.

The bad guys simply placed a few non-blank deposit tickets on the top of the stack. They looked blank, but had a MICR line at the bottom for an account. Some were even so bold as to place their own actual deposit tickets in the stack. If the cashier was careless and ran the deposit ticket through her machine, it would deposit the money to the perpetrator's account.

At least that was the theory. I don't know just how often the bad guys got away with it.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[FFFish]

It was a poor attempt at humour. Don't laugh.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Get with the times. :-) It's pretty common nowadays to have ethernet switches with a fiber ring uplink.

I know that. It just sounds kind of wierd and overbuilt. I worked at a big retail store about 10 years ago, and the IT infrastructure wasn't nearly this complicated. And last I was in a walmart I didn't notice so many network connected machines around the store to need this kind of stuff. You'd think that their needs would be simple enough to just run cable drops all throughout the store to one central location.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[halowolf]

I understand your point of view. It has become quite common in Australia for stores to insist on checking your bags for stolen goods (however common sense tells me that if your bags are checked for stolen goods then thieves will simply hide their spoils somewhere else).

I get quite sick of being expected to hand over my bags for inspection or wait in a queue to leave a store. I'm not a thief and I don't expect to be treated as one just because I had the audacity to walk into their store. So whever there is a queue or something I just walk around it and leave. Sometimes I'm stopped sometimes I'm not. It's a somewhat arrogant attitude to take, but honestly I don't care. I am not a thief and thats all that matters to me everytime my integrity is called into question be store owners and their security.

Nowadays when I am carrying a few bags and whatnot, or my bag I take to work and I'm thinking of going into a store where I will most likely be searched, then I simply don't go in. Which means that they are potentially loosing sales.

I understand that Australian businesses are losing big money to thieves but I don't care to be treated like a criminal. Besides thieves are very adaptable and find ways to beat the systems in place, and stores seem far to slow to respond to changing circumstances.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[cybrthng]

Those criticisims of WalMart may be true. I dont know. They have been around since before Sam Walton died, however. My point is that WalMart very much is interested in driving prices lower.

Thats the issue at hand. Walmart can (and does) force vendors to give them prices advantagous over every competitor in the market. Walmart buys more so they get the discounts, but they also have the clout to say to people that if they DON'T sell to walmart at the price WALMART once they will loose the market.

The only thing walmart is good as is screwing over its employees. I'd rather pay for quality goods knowing that good hard workers are able to make a living, afford health insurance and have a job.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Gonarat]

You don't need access to WAP, or even the central database to pull this off. Most retailers have their cards in an assigned BIN range, which is a range of 16 or 19 digit (can be other lengths, but 16 or 19 is typical). If you can figure out what the range is (easy -- just buy one or more cards), get a card number generator program, use the 800 AVR (Automated Voice Response) number, and keep trying until you hit a card number with value. Fix up your card, and you're in business.

These guys may get away with this for awhile, but most Retailers get fraud reports which they can use to analyse this kind of thing. Once they figure out the pattern, they can wait for the criminal(s) to make a mistake.

It is not easy to prove fraud since gift cards are not linked to a customer, so they must catch the criminal with an altered card, or prove there is no way that a card bought at store A could be used at store B in a given time frame.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[AsnFkr]

Agreed, but then you have the chance of getting causing a bit of a scene in a otherwise seemless plan.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Gogo Dodo]

Actually, it's even better than that. Some cards are not completely used so Starbucks gets to keep the cash without supplying anything in return. For awhile, the cards would even expire, but lately, that's been deemed illegal in some states. Companies love gift cards and the like. It gives them cash up front and when the cards are redeemed, the purchase is usually over the amount on the card, so they get a bigger sale. If the purchase is less than the card, the company pockets the difference if the customer decides just toss the remaining balance.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[DavidTC]

Yes, the grandparent is a fool. I worked at Wallyworld, not in LP, but I knew someone who did. He said, basically, that other employees don't have any idea what's going on there. The management deliberately doesn't tell them anything, so basically everything's a rumor. I suspect that the management figured out that employees are probably more likely to steal from the store, and also realized they didn't want to be told this. But, hey, like I said, I don't know anything...I'm just one of the few people who worked there who realized I don't know anything.

Of course, I was a cashier, so the only thing I was even vaguely expected to do toward loss prevention was to open up coolers and tackleboxes. People who shoplift normally don't even go though the checkout. And the only things I could steal were pens and tictacs. (Well, obviously, I could have stuck a few hundred dollars in my pocket and sprinted out of the store. But not undetected.)

However, I simply can't go with the idea that all cameras are recording. There's no reason they wouldn't have told us that, and what we were supposed to do about shoplifters are predicated on altering management without letting them out of our sight, and we were told that basically nothing would be done if we did let them out of our sight.

In other words, if you shoplift in Walmart, wander quickly around the store immediately afterwards, and you'll probably get away with it. They don't want people pretending to shoplift and then sticking things back on shelves when no one's looking. Which makes no sense at all if the cameras are always rolling and have complete coverage...they could just check the tape before stopping someone. (Or, at least, before searching them.)

Like you said, we weren't told jack about how actual LP works...but I don't understand what they would have to gain by telling us that it's more important to watch the shoplifter than to alert someone, if in actuality they have tapes of everything.

That said, I couldn't care less. While I loathe Walmart, I don't plan to start shoplifting from there. I do laugh as I casually get 20 dollars cash back on a 59 cent purchase, though, secure in knowing that my bank charged them 2 dollars for that.

And if they ever talk about a schedule power outage...that's a bomb threat. Just in case anyone cares and actually wants to get out of the store.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[wolrahnaes]

Gift cards are there because some people have a problem with giving/recieving cash, they think it's somehow worse than a "real" gift. These people then think that by giving a gift card, that this is somehow better than cash.

Really, gift cards are for morons, plain and simple. Give the gift of cash. It's the perfect gift because it's always just what they want.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Linuxathome]

It's also great business because once the value goes down to a small amount--an amount lower than the cheapest item you can buy in the store--the customer is forced to either buy another item to clear the card AND spend more money at the same time just to do so. Or risk losing that money to Starbucks, where it can gain interest for Starbucks until the escheet period passes.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Nazmun]

But if he has a card swiper he wouldn't need the serial number. I'm a cashier and we go through cards that have never been scratched off. We just swipe it.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

It's all about networking capability and cost.

Remeber that 100 base TX over cat 5 ethernet is rated only for a max of 150 meters per segment. If you've got to run further than that (and going up into ceilings, around ducts, etc., makes for a long run quickly) you need some kind of hardware to act as a repeater, be it a router, switch, hub, or booster. Those cost big money, since not only do you have to buy them, you have to install them, you have to power them from their own electrical outlet which also costs lots of money to install. You also have to pay to maintain them with service contracts, monitoring software, payroll costs, etc., which means that even a simple repeater ends up costing roughly the same as a full blown 24-port switch, while giving you only 1/24th the value.

The cheapest solution is to put a router and fiber switch at your building's service entrance. Run the fiber to a closet in each corner of the building, and in each closet put a switch. Then you can run the final wires from the closets to your devices over cat 5.

This eliminates "random repeaters" hanging unmaintainably in the ceilings. Fiber is high capacity, and unaffected by EM interference generated by other devices in the building, such as HVAC systems or lighting ballasts, and is well suited to the long portions of the runs.

10 years ago, if you were in a Walm*rt or other big retailer, chances are the wiring was completely different. IBM POS systems at the time used a "store loop" system, running over shielded two-twisted-pairs. Those runs were rated for 2000 feet, but I know of some installations that pushed them as high as 4000 feet. While it was a loop topology designed to run from register to register, for maintenance reasons many retailers found it simpler to run individual lines from a central switch panel (typically an Autoshunt device.) With 2000 foot cable lengths, this is possible, where the 300-375 foot cat 5 is not. NCR used a "Starlan" network topology, again all wires were brought back to a central closet. And Siemens Nixdorf ran yet another proprietary serial network in a hub-and-spoke topology through boxes called "star boxes".

It wasn't until the adoption of ordinary PCs as cash registers that ethernet caught on in the retail world. And since ethernet cards were way cheaper than token ring cards (no IBM tax) and far, far cheaper than store loop cards (for the proprietary register networking), ethernet was adopted on price alone even though other networking alternatives had their attractions.

While it may seem more complicated today, you should have tried to troubleshoot problems with any of those other "networking" technologies. The IBMs, in particular, acted a lot like a really slow token ring loop, and could talk only in one direction. Confuse just one computer, and the whole loop failed. Break two computers, and now none of the computers can even tell you where the break occurred anymore. Also, you have to train technicians on all the magic diagnostic commands, the electrians on the funny wiring requirements, and you have to have special software running on special hardware with a special OS; whereas ethernet is just ethernet. And everybody knows ethernet, which means service contracts and support staff just got way cheaper, too.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[CountBrass]

What no-one seems to have mentioned as a possibility is the most obvious and likely one: Walmart's software is bugged so it's either not properly crediting the cards in the first place: or it's debiting them when it shouldn't

As the old saying goes: never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

Exactly. I'm being petty and juvenile (and I post to Slashdot, go figure.) I answered this question above, if you'd care to read why.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't read barcodes? my cuecat can. :-)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think that their needs would be simple enough to just run cable drops all throughout the store to one central location.

As I mentioned in another reply, Wal-Mart's maximum distance for twisted-pair cable runs is 325 feet. There really is no "central location" to put switches that everything would be within 325 feet of. The center of the store is reserved for merchandise and wouldn't really be a good place to put a huge bank of critical switches. All the switches are around the periphery.

Network devices:

1. Front-line registers.
2. Wireless access points, mounted throughout the store and run to the closest switch.
3. WYSE terminals at customer service & elsewhere.
4. Outlying registers, i.e. electronics, sporting goods, housewares, etc.
5. Back-of-store stuff, including layaway systems, managers' computers, more dumb terminals, a training lab, etc.
6. Time clocks.
7. Produce scales.
8. All the servers & stuff in the UPC office.
9. Other things I'm not remembering.

All connections between the switches are fiber (except for a couple of crossover cables between switches in the same set) and are redundant; all sets of switches connect back to the UPC office but also to one other set of switches for redundancy.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

p.s. I'm not the anonymous employee who started this thread; I'm a contractor who did a network project from the home office for a while.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of stores in the US have a similar system in place, except with selective enforcement - a guard by entrance/exit may ask to see your bags and ticket. If you set off the alarm, he may do the same, but they often request it without.

I've found that taking the attitude of calmly, and completely, ignoring their presence works wonderfully for being able to walk out without raising a red flag.

The same trick works just as well for the average suburban US police force. I stopped paying attention to them, and they stopped pulling me over. Now if only I could stop the nuisance "village sticker" tickets issued by cops who drive up onto private property and run my plate for no valid reason on random Saturday/Sunday mornings.

Law enforcement as revenue stream at work - cop has no calls, and rather than dutifully patrolling area for suspicious activity, looks for citizens to siphon money from...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, my employer gives gift cards to employees on their birthday. I think they've negotiated a discount on the purchase price vs. redeemable value.

I sure as hell don't mind getting a gift card from them, since a regular check is kind of annoying to me (direct deposit forever, woo!).

Re:I think it's an inside job

[brandorf]

As an ex-employee of said company, I can verify that the gift cards have magnetic stripes. The number that you need to call to check the balance is hidden behind a scratch-off spot.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[brandorf]

Wal-Mart's wireless equipment uses 900mhz. I don't know what protocol that might be, but that's what the machines proclaim on boot-up. This is probbably less a security choice and more likely a result of older equipment.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[DNS-and-BIND]

In America, you can just push aside any "security" check and exit the store. If the store personnel want to stop you, that's false arrest and you can sue their asses off. Assuming you're not actually stealing anything, of course.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

The handheld Laser Radio Terminals (LRT)[google it] and Portable Data Terminals (PDT) [google it] are made by Symbol Technologies, they run DRDOS and are basically VT100 terminals. The old ones worked at 900Mhz, but the newer ones (within the past 5 years or more) are 2.4Ghz.

You can find data sheets for current Symbol Technologies PDT and scanner products at their web site.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[halowolf]

In Australia every store that I've seen that searches people has a sign at the entrance, that says one of the conditions of entering this store is that you agree to allow your bags to be searched upon request.

I don't know the legal status of such things and what exactly will be the consequence of not allowing the search to take place and what legal recources I have. I really don't much care to hire a lawyer to find out for me either. Recently police powers to search have been increased, but its not exactly like I confuse those misleading security guards psuedo police uniform hybrids with police officers.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Agent__Smith]

"Having worked in a $7 an hour sales job, I know what I would do if I suspected someone shoplifting - absolutely nothing. $7 an hour is not enough to risk a potentially dangerous confrontation. The main reason for sensors is to make people think they'll get caught shoplifting and to make management feel like they are doing something to prevent theft (maybe the store's insurance requires them). I'm sure they don't even begin to deter the serious professional thief."

Not only do I agree completely with this statement, but I will go you one further... I, as many, have done my time in the minimum wage gulag, and EVERY SINGLE place I ever worked retail had the policy that even if you did observe someone stealing that you were not to try and detain or stop them in any way, just try to get a good description to give police etc... I asked one of the big cheese corperate security dudes about it one time during one of those scintilating loss prevention seminars, and was told that the potential loss of a little bit of stock absolutely pales in comparison to the possible liability the company would face if either the employee or the thief sustained any kind of injury. Makes sense. It is like a lock on your door... any competent thief can get past your locks. They aren't their to keep out the pros, just to keep the honest people honest.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not a lawyer, are you. You are kind of funny, though. False arrest...sue their asses off. That really is pretty funny. Completely whacked, but funny.

By the way, you're wrong. And blissfully ignorant - just like all of your cheese-head bretheren on Cops that are going to sue the asses off the police department for false arrest.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[mn3m05yn3]

The obvious reaction would be to activate entries in the database that weren't actually sold and don't have physical counterparts. Any such card that shows up on a sales floor was obviously illegally counterfitted. But if it's an inside job, this won't help you catch the crooks cause they'd know what you were up to.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[scifiber_phil]

Yes, and that is why I am angered at computer equipment "rebates". They know they can sell an item for forty bucks, change fifty, and then offer a rebate for ten bucks. You don't get the rebate return for many weeks. Meanwhile the seller collects interest on your money. In the end seller gets the needed forty bucks, plus a nifty bonus of the interest from your cash. You get screwed, but usually feel as if you got a bargain because you got a "rebate". Basically it is a legal scam.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Lumpy]

Most stores it's even worse.

K-mart has maybe 4 cameras covering the entire store and based on the stores I know people in, over 50% of those cameras are broken.

Hell many stores even have the no-go scanners at the entrance turned off.

There is a very acceptable level of theft that stores now accept, espically cince profits on products, as in walmart's case, is way up because of the extreme disparity of the store's cost to get the product versus the lowest price they will sell it at.

for Example. A 5 Quart Jug of MOBIL 1 synthetic oil... the most expensive 10W30 oil you can buy sells in their store for $19.94 regularly. many other stores that carry it sell that Jug for $24.99 while Walmart pay's less than $7.00 for that jug of oil INCLUDING transportation costs because they buy it in gigantic amounts... They are in fact many manufacturer's biggest customer.

So if they sell 5 jugs of that oil and another 3 walk out the door, they still made a good profit compared to all their competition.

Almost everything else in their store is either at a >100% profit margin or higher. Some items have a 500% profit margin!! absolutely unheard of in retail sales.

There are more things that are just as scary but give you real insight into the retail world when you have friends on the inside that carelessly leave important and very interesting papers on their desks while you screw around waiting for them to get out of work.

Dont get me started about the value level of shoplifting they will ignore or only verbally abuse the shoplifter about. Shoplifting discrimination based on value??? blew my mind.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey fuckhead, this is the management at Wal*mart.

That's right, Wal*mart, not Walm*art.

So go kill yourself now.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Doctor Crocodile]

Earlier this year I attended a trade seminar http://www.retailsystems.com/ with a Walmart phb-type as a speaker. After a ton of other statistics he remarked that certain items (pampers for instance) can turn more than once a day. As they pay their suppliers on 15 days (best payers in the business) they get 15 days worth of sales WITHOUT OUTLAY. Their cash management function has about $13bn on deposit at any one time. They don't need the stored value cards, Procter & Gamble are lending them ten times as much.....

Also on LP, the discussion switched to self-checkout. Somone asked him whether they tusted their customers enough... apologies to the parent post but his response was that the customers were at least as honest as the cashiers, probably more so.

And finally, on the cameras. The black domes you've seen in the ceiling aren't the only eyes in the sky. Check out the pinhole in that motion detector......

Re:I think it's an inside job

[WuphonsReach]

I work for one of Wal-Mart's biggest competitors in Canada, and when we build a new store, every square inch of floor space is covered by a camera. About the only places NOT covered are bathrooms and changerooms.

All in all, it really doesn't surprise me.

About 10 years ago, the *cheapest* camera that you could buy was around $500-$1000. Plus the cable run ($500?) and the dedicated VCR ($100) and the tapes (probably another $50/yr). Needless to say, if you wanted 50 or 100 cameras in the store, it was a heck of a lot cheaper to only put in 10 and having 50+ empty bubbles.

Of course, given the wonders of the digital age, cameras now cost under $100 and the results can be stored in a digital format. Probably the only cost that hasn't changed is wiring or labor to install. And if the cameras work over ethernet, even wiring gets cheap if you can tap into an already existing network infrastructure.

Heck, a lot of camera systems are even full-color now because they have the bandwidth and storage for it.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

K-mart has maybe 4 cameras covering the entire store and based on the stores I know people in, over 50% of those cameras are broken.

Probably because they're using 10-20 year old technology. (Back when cameras were a few grand each and only capable of B&W pictures.)

Remember how much home video cameras used to cost? Now you can get one for about 1/10th the cost or less. Well, that same function applies to security cameras which means that a store can now install 2x or 5x for the same amount of money as 10 years ago.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[WuphonsReach]

Paraphrased, Sam Waltons theory on setting prices is: everyone else charges the maxium possible; We charge the minimum possible to still survive.

Which is fine, so long as Wal*mart wasn't a huge chain with extremely large "buying power" over their suppliers. Before they got that big, they were just another fish in the pond and the suppliers could tell them to go "shove it" if they tried to bully down the price.

I refuse to shop there because they're too big and it's too much power concentrated into too few of hands. (Not to mention the other issues with their employee relations, attitudes towards suppliers, etc.)

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Stephen Samuel]

Hey! POS servers are POS servers. No matter WHO makes them, they're still POS.
(get with the joke, buddy)

(and if you don't think that IBM can't make a piece of sh!t, you never saw the PCjr.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[unixdad]

A smart thief would redeem $149 on a $150 card to keep the card with the $1 balance on it in his pocket.

Ok, I guess I would make a bad thief. Why would this be smart? Are you suggesting that the victim wouldn't notice the missing money, and would just go ahead and put more money on the card?

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, only a peace officer can arrest a citizen. Security guards have zero authority, and you can blow by them with impunity, especially if you're leaving the property. Sure, they can bar you from returning but that's about it.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[dasmegabyte]

Meanwhile, the person you gave it to got a nice, sturdy, attractive plastic card rather than a flimsy piece of paper, meaning it's more likely they'll keep it in their wallet and not lose or damage it.

I had a $50 gift certificate get soaked, I essentially lost the money. Another time, I had a $800 gift certificate to a canoe and kayak shop (wedding present from ALL my friends) that got misplaced in a move...luckily, the guy recorded all his large GCs and was able to look us up!

The plastic debit card system is a GODSEND for giving gift certificates, which are a great gift for somebody whose tastes you're not sure of or who only needs things that are more expensive than you can afford on your own. I commonly get gift certificates to the Apple store or to my local speaker shop, because everybody knows I like good audio but nobody's going to drop $1000 on a pair of speakers that I haven't even listened to yet. Gift certificates are slightly more intimate than just giving cash (cash goes into pockets and is used for gas, groceries, whatever, GCs are spent where you think that person would like to shop) and occasionally some businesses sell discounted GCs...so buying one is like buying anything at the store 10% off, and they often stack with coupons. Bob's stores was notorious for doing that in our area -- I used to get my Dockers for $10-$15 a pair.

Good for the customer, good for the business...I wouldn't be surprised to see GC only business pop up here and there. Jillian's tavern works sort of like that...you buy a game card and put credits onto it, with no limit on how many credits you have to use. I have a pair of $80+ game cards that were gifts, meaning that's essentially $160 Jillian's made and I never cashed in on, mostly because I hate Jillian's.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[DAldredge]

Some walmarts, like the one in kilgore texas, have pocketpc based systems that the CSM's use. They where made by HP.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[plover]

If the thief bought $150 or more, the cashier would keep the expended card. If it were forged, that would be leaving evidence behind.

If the thief bought only $149, the card would still have a balance, and the cashier would return the card to the thief, leaving no evidence behind.

Fortunately, most thieves are really, really stupid, and leave behind plenty of evidence for investigators to find. Of course, I don't know what kind of thieves they're suffering from, but they seem at least moderately clever.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Macgrrl]

More and more stores are selling cards with no value displayed on them. When you buy one it is blank and the person at the register adds both activation information and the value at the time the card is purchased.

I saw cards like these in K-Mart the other day in Melbourne (Australia), they were valid for use anywhere within the Coles-Myer retail chain.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Dare nMc]

> that wouldn't work because the card serial numbers have the golden stuff you have to scratch off with your finger nail.


The gift cards I got in the past, they were activated without ever exposing the serial number,
I think that number must be in the barcode, so I am guessing one could scan the cards on the rack with a barcode reader, wait until those cards are purchased, then use the acquired information later.

Equipment reuired, PDA with a barcode reader, barcode printer, a dead card to replace the barcode on.

Just a guess...

Re:I think it's an inside job

[jovetoo]

Or you can just be an unqualified but network savvy computer geek. Just the kind of guy to be out of cash and looking for an easy job to pay the rent/upgrade race.

Re:I think it's an inside job

[Maestro4k]

• I'd say about 100 square feet of the store is under surveillance...

  You see 20 registers and 20 black bubbles... 2 of those have cameras... 1 might be recorded... there's probably someone watching them only on a very high volume weekend.

Not anymore, the newer super centers have a camera in ever single bubble and they're monitored regularly, more so at high volume times. Not sure when they started this but I know the local super center (about 5 years old) is this way because I worked there for a while. You should see the racks and racks of VCRs that record all the cameras!

• I worked in a wal-mart for a number of years, the bubbles are to scare people, like the "security tag detectors" on the doors...

Actually most everything expensive now comes in pre-tagged from the manufacturer and those detectors are more than just a scare tactic as well. It's actually pretty effective since it doesn't rely on the employees remembering to tag stuff. It also serves as a source of customer annoyance when the deactivators act up. Management isn't always keen on spending the money to fix them so they'll stay bad for long periods and lots of customers get royally embarassed when the alarm goes off.

A little late?

[darkmeridian]

The date of the article was June 10, 2004. Maybe this was in another time zone or something so it was more recent than I thought?

Re:A little late?

[NeuroManson]

That's nothing, I submitted a story back in November, only to find it posted 9 months later, and under a different name altogether.

Re:Owned!

[ArchAngel21x]

So now Wal-mart customer are stupid? You arrogance must know no limits.

Bad Publicity

[MikeMacK]

"Well initially he told me that he really couldn't do anything for me," Tami Kegley says of the Wal-Mart employee she dealt with. "He said it was a corporate issue." But Tami persisted, and got finally got the $150.00. Carol also got her money back.

Wal-Mart does not need anymore bad publicity, this should be a non-issue, if people got cheated, they need to provide recompense. It's not like they can't afford it.

Re:Bad Publicity

[jazzer]

Wal-Mart does not need anymore bad publicity

I beg to differ, they need all the bad publicity they can get.... :) I'd love to watch Walmart sink...

Re:Bad Publicity

[Edmund Blackadder]

But I hate it that they always initially refuse these things. It's like you have to make a big deal out of it in order to get your money back. Or, in other words, the store takes advantage of people that are too polite too nice and/or too busy to make a scene.

Re:Bad Publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

if people got cheated, they need to provide recompense. It's not like they can't afford it.

1. Get Walmart gift card.
2. Immediately take it to another state and spend it.
3. Three weeks later attempt to spend it again, and complain you were cheated when it comes up with $0 balance.

Re:Bad Publicity

[Curtman]

Hmmmm. I've got a (legitimately) emptied Walmart card. Maybe I should just head down there and scream bloody murder. I could use a couple stacks of DVD-R's to go with my new drive.

Re:Bad Publicity

[MikeMacK]

And people wonder why no one believes them when they have a legitimate gripe.

Re:Bad Publicity

[Curtman]

Thats my point. I don't actually have a Walmart card. But you can be certain someone out there is doing this as we speak.

Re:Bad Publicity

[MikeMacK]

Probably true, but if your stupid enough to commit fraud for a couple hundred dollars, then good riddance.

Re:Bad Publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

You reimburse as theft-loss and investigate the matter. It'll save face and be alot easier to catch someone who does that. It'd also be alot less expensive than bad publicity. That could cost you thousands compared to 150.00 dollars. In this scenario it's not only good business but you might lock in a customers loyalty as well. Which means repeat business. All this for 150.00 dollars of the own customers money. Either thats a dumb Walmart manager or they need to retrain their staff.

Re:Bad Publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't as evil as you make it sound. If they let the people at the service desk just hand out money any time someone had a problem the store would be hurting. All wierd exceptions are handled at the corporate level. The article said that when they called the corporate office, walmart straightened it out.

Re:Bad Publicity

[ergo98]

And people wonder why no one believes them when they have a legitimate gripe.

One of the big electric retailers used to allow you to return any electronics up to something like 3 months after the date of purchase for a full refund. I remember being in disbelief hearing that there was a large group of people that would go and buy video cards, wait until just before until the expiry of the return window and then return it for the newest latest and greatest. People wonder why they face such difficulty getting fair treatment from corporations, but usually it's because for every one legitimate issue there are a dozen weasles and thieves trying to abuse the system.

Re:Bad Publicity

[dasmegabyte]

Or maybe they make it just a little difficult for small time grifters -- who WalMart attracts by the hundreds as it is, I once saw a guy return a worn and dirty pair of boots, claiming he bought them that way, and got his money back, i returned several broken PSXs back in the day -- to take advantage of their goodwill. I mean, shit, if you believe everything the customer says, you're inviting cheapskates to lie to you. A little suspicion goes a long way.

Cool but....

[dirkdidit]

What kind of geek buys their computer gear at Wal-Mart? I mean come on, even Best Buy would have been a step up. I bet he'd even opt for the Extended Service Plan. Either way, the culprit will be set for life when it comes to toilet paper and snacks.

Re:Cool but....

[nizo]

the culprit will be set for life when it comes to toilet paper and snacks.

Ummm, considering the number of cameras in every Walmart I have ever seen, it will only be a matter of time before whoever is doing this gets caught. I would bet money that sooner or later Walmart will start sending fake cards through the system (with high dollar amounts) to catch these kinds of people too.

Re:Cool but....

[e9th]

The bad guys were smart enough to pull this off in the first place. I'm guessing they're smart enough not to purchase stuff with serial numbers or "extended warranties."

Re:Cool but....

[karniv0re]

What kind of geek buys their computer gear at Wal-Mart?

The kind of geeks who can get it for free.

Re:Cool but....

[MikeMacK]

As I understood, Walmart.com was one of the first major sites to sell Linux pre-installed on cheap computers. Whatever you feel about Wal-mart, that is a cool thing, in my opinion.

Re:Cool but....

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Buy crappy computer from Walmart with forged gift card.
2. Sell computer on Ebay
3. Profit!!!

4. Buy good computer parts.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Re:Cool but....

[ciggieposeur]

As recently as 1998, Walmart and other retailers wiped out the camera records 24 hours after they were made. I used to know someone who would write bad checks at Walmart, Target, etc. and then claim the checkbook had been "stolen" the next day. After the police report was filed all of the retailers wrote it off.

Re:Cool but....

[davidstrauss]

I bet he'd even opt for the Extended Service Plan.

Make fun of it all you like, but I get free battery replacements (and maybe even the new hardware versions) for my iPod for four years, at a cost of $40. Also, Best Buy employees usually won't opt to fix the problem. They'll usually just give you the lastest new model of equal or greater size. That means my 4G iPod may become a 5G or 6G when I need to get the battery replaced in a year or two.

Old adage..

[Ikn]

Something like "idle hands are a devil's playground"? Well, bored geek employed at Walmart = ..well, this.

Re:Old adage..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure they've twisted it around their product, but on the Virgin Mobile T.V. ads here in the UK, its "The Devil makes work for idle thumbs (keep yours busy, text another mobile viring for 3p)".. that thing sure sticks in ur mind.

Re:Old adage..

[MedHead]

Minimum wage pay, union busting, illegal anti-competitive behavior against local busines, discrimanatory against women in their merit practices--

So they pay minimum wage... that's their choice. Nobody is really forcing you to work there. I know, in small towns, the evil store takes away all other jobs and forces you to work in their store - my counter to that argument would be to question the pay rate of the original occupation. If it's a small town, you're probably not getting much over minimum wage anyway.

Union busting? Unions are terrible, and a waste of time. I worked in a union-backed retail store, and the only thing I found the union did was take my money from my paycheck every week. I tried using it, and the union was, and continues to be, worthless. I applaud Wal*Mart for being union-free.

How can you be "anti-competitive"? I don't know what you mean, mind explaining?

I have no experiences with the discriminatory behavior, so I can't really comment much on your final statement. In my area, there are more women working in Wal*Mart than there are men, so I don't know how true your statement is in terms of the entire company. Your area may have problems, but I would link that more to the poor managerial staff, and not Wal*Mart in general. But as I said, I don't have experience with that, so I can't comment much.

Re:Old adage..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing is more dangerous than wandering lordless ronin hackers! Some villager merchants probably offered a years supply of ramin noodles to seven of them in return for saving them from the attacking Walmart.

Re:Old adage..

[Xabraxas]

Union busting? Unions are terrible, and a waste of time. I worked in a union-backed retail store, and the only thing I found the union did was take my money from my paycheck every week. I tried using it, and the union was, and continues to be, worthless. I applaud Wal*Mart for being union-free.

People have the right to form a union if they want to. If you don't like unions then don't join them. It's not anyone else's problem. Despite complaints from people about unions (including my own personal experience) their presence is better than their abscense. We've already seen what happens when we don't have the right to form unions.

How can you be "anti-competitive"? I don't know what you mean, mind explaining?

Do you know anything about predatory pricing, discriminatory pricing, and display fees? I didn't think so or you wouldn't be posting.

I have no experiences with the discriminatory behavior, so I can't really comment much on your final statement. In my area, there are more women working in Wal*Mart than there are men, so I don't know how true your statement is in terms of the entire company. Your area may have problems, but I would link that more to the poor managerial staff, and not Wal*Mart in general. But as I said, I don't have experience with that, so I can't comment much.

First of all, the CEO must ultimately take responsibility for the company. In fact CEO's have been arrested for offenses committed by their managers or even salespeople usually as a result of healthcode violations. Walmart also has a responsibility as a company to provide for a fair and non-discriminatory work environment and they haven't done that. Maybe you missed the news when Walmart had a class action lawsuit against them for disciminatory behaviour, concerning the lack of women who received promotions. Next time you are in a Walmart take a look at what positions the women usually hold as compared to the men.

Re:Old adage..

[RollingThunder]

People have the right to form a union if they want to. If you don't like unions then don't join them. It's not anyone else's problem.

That's amusing.

Don't join. Heh.

A company up here in Canada was bought up by a major telco. The union employees in the major telco forced a vote on the employees of the smaller company, making it mandatory for the smaller company's employees to join the union if they wanted to keep their jobs.

Yeah, they had a choice, all right.

Re:Old adage..

[Anonymous Coward]

In my area, there are more women working in Wal*Mart than there are men

Did you miss the recent news about the giagantic class-action sex descrimination lawsuit against Walmark? 75% of non-management staff are women, but only 37% of management. Walmart can't argue with the numbers, and is already thinking about settling.

How can you be "anti-competitive"? I don't know what you mean, mind explaining?

Are you really that ignorant? How old are you, twelve?

Walmart used to price certain items at a price that was so low that they were losing money. They would lower prices to on certain key items to the point where Walmart would lose money. The purpose was to drive local competitors out of business. Once the competititor was gone, Walmart would raise the price again.

That, you idiot, is anti-competitive

Re:Old adage..

[MedHead]

People have the right to form a union if they want to. If you don't like unions then don't join them. It's not anyone else's problem. Despite complaints from people about unions (including my own personal experience) their presence is better than their abscense. We've already seen what happens when we don't have the right to form unions.

They still take the money from your paycheck! Join them or don't join them, you still pay union dues. Might as well join them. Otherwise, I am paying for nothing.

Do you know anything about predatory pricing, discriminatory pricing, and display fees? I didn't think so or you wouldn't be posting.

Good grief, are all Slashdot users rude? I said, there should be no concession made to small businesses by larger businesses to stay alive. To say that Wal*Mart can't enter a community, so that a smaller business may thrive is creating a monopoly for the smaller business. Wal*Mart has just as much right to enter an area as a small business. If Wal*Mart is doing something illegal, then stop them. If they're not, it's business. If these small businesses are so great for the community, why are they dying? Because the people in the small community aren't visiting them any longer. Don't fault Wal*Mart for the lack of loyalty among small business patrons!

I think it should also be noted that Sam's Club was made for small businesses to get the deals to which Wal*Mart was privy. Ironic that it comes from the "evil" company itself.

First of all, the CEO must ultimately take responsibility for the company. In fact CEO's have been arrested for offenses committed by their managers or even salespeople usually as a result of healthcode violations. Walmart also has a responsibility as a company to provide for a fair and non-discriminatory work environment and they haven't done that. Maybe you missed the news when Walmart had a class action lawsuit against them for disciminatory behaviour, concerning the lack of women who received promotions. Next time you are in a Walmart take a look at what positions the women usually hold as compared to the men.

Has the lawsuit yet been finished? I really don't know, so if anyone has any information, please post. Otherwise, they're innocent until proven guilty. Just because there is a lawsuit in the works, does not mean it has any grounds in reality.

Re:Old adage..

[Xabraxas]

Well the grandparent basically said that if you don't like minimum wage jobs then work somewhere else, to that I say if you don't like unions jobs then work somewhere else.

Re:Old adage..

[new2this]

If it were a choice why do unions for employees to join. If my current employer were bought by a shop that was unionized the union would make it mandatory I join or walk the unemployment line.

Today's unions are nothing but corrupt corporations themselves.

Re:Old adage..

[Xabraxas]

If Wal*Mart is doing something illegal, then stop them. If they're not, it's business.

I love you hardcore capitalists. Fuck everyone, it's business and that makes it okay. Who needs morals and ethics when we have the free market? What a crock of shit. Don't forget their disgusting policy to insure older workers with themsevles as the benefactors. That's just despicable.

Re:Old adage..

[Anonymous Coward]

It does no good to try to argue with a shititarian/refuckican dog-eat-dog/survival-of-the-fittest troll. None of them have a fucking heart.

Re:Old adage..

[ConceptJunkie]

Move to a "Right to Work" state. Unions are just legalized communism and are only helpful for employees who have low skills, and therefore little leverage, and that's assuming they aren't corrupt.

Re:Old adage..

[Frogbert]

In Melbourne Australia your not allowed to work in construction unless you join the union.

Re:Old adage..

[nmos]

Maybe you missed the news when Walmart had a class action lawsuit against them for disciminatory behaviour, concerning the lack of women who received promotions. Next time you are in a Walmart take a look at what positions the women usually hold as compared to the men.

Well the local store has a female store manager and most of the assistants are female as well. Given how big they are I'd be surprised if there wern't problems in at least some stores but it's clearly not a company wide problem.

Re:Old adage..

[Anonymous Coward]

Some companies *deserve* a unionized work force.

Go work at U.P.S. sometime, especially up in the Northeast US. I was reguarly cussed out, had my job threatened on a monthly basis, with more threats if you refused to work at a facility 3+ hours away from your home. Management was by intimidation.

Re:Old adage..

[Xabraxas]

It clearly is a company-wide problem considering the class action law suit.

You obviously have not been to many walmarts if you think most of them are run by females.

Re:Old adage..

[nmos]

It clearly is a company-wide problem considering the class action law suit.

Simply filing a law suite doesn't automatically make you right.

Re:Old adage..

[Xabraxas]

One store with female managers doesn't make you right either. Do you see my point now?

Re:Owned!

[zzottt]

I guess you havnt been to a small town that has been taken over by Walmart?

Re:Owned!

[cyberfunk2]

The plural, my good man, is cutomers.

Re:Owned!

[AresTheImpaler]

I guess you havnt been to a small town that has been taken over by Walmart?

What about it? Are you trying to say that Walmart actions make people stupid? Sure, I don't like walmart too much, but it doesn't mean that walmart customers are stupid. They go to walmart because it is cheap.

Re:Owned!

[Hitmen]

You were supposed to add an S at the end, not move the one already in the word.

reimbursement

[X_Caffeine]

at least Walmart can afford to reimburse those customers. After all, they skim a buck from every card every month they remain unused. (If you've got an unused Walmart card from last Christmas, it's lost $9 of its value.)

Re:reimbursement

[emcron]

Actually, in Washington State it is now illegal for companies to skim ANYTHING off of a gift card for any reason, and the balance can NEVER expire.

Re: reimbursement

[Black Parrot]

> at least Walmart can afford to reimburse those customers

I wonder whether businesses are smart enough to hire actuaries to tell them what the economic impact of compromised technology could be, and whether actuaries have enough risk data to actuall put a number on it.

Re:reimbursement

[Bradee-oh!]

California as well.

Re:reimbursement

[Beowulfto]

That is untrue. They only start to deduct a buck a month after 24 months of non-activity. So you still have 15 months yet until you start to lose your Christmas gift.

Re:reimbursement

[FFFish]

Not only that, but you've just given them a free loan plus you dollars lose value due to inflation!

A giftcard is okay if it's going to be spent in a few weeks. It's absolutely retarded to let the cash stay in the card for any longer period of time.

Re:reimbursement

[karmatic]

Besides the fact that they are greedy corporate bastards, the purpose of this is to keep the money away from greedy government bastards.

Our laws are based losely off those of england, and include the simple concept of "all things belong to the government, you simply pay taxes so you can use them". As such, "unclaimed property" is an oxymoron.

Many states have what are known as "eschew" laws. If a giftcard expires, all of the money goes to the state. These service fees allow them to take money from the card, without having it expire and go to the government.
--
The next two people to complete an offer get up to 3 gmail invites, an orkut invite, and a $5 ebay gift certificate

Re:reimbursement

[Maestro4k]

• at least Walmart can afford to reimburse those customers. After all, they skim a buck from every card every month they remain unused. (If you've got an unused Walmart card from last Christmas, it's lost $9 of its value.)

Except that's not true, you should check your facts before posting. Wal-mart will not take any money off the cards until it remains unused after 24 months. That's 2 years! Also any time you use the card that counter is reset. If it's remained untouched after 2 years it's likely the person who has the card has forgotten or lost it.

Gift Vouchers are stupid.

[Organized Konfusion]

A: Hey happy birthday/christmas/eid here's $50 gift voucher you can only spend at wal*mart
B: Hey happy birthday/christmas/eid here's $50 you can only spend on crack, whores or beer.

What would you prefer?

Re:Gift Vouchers are stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

b should read

B: Hey happy birthday/christmas/eid here's $50 you can only spend on crack-whores or beer.

Re:Gift Vouchers are stupid.

[kalislashdot]

I would have to agree with Parent. I see absolutly no point in gift-cards. The retailers push them because they make money on them since they charge a monthly fee or the card goes unused. Then they say a gift card if different then a gift certificate so they can charge those fees. That is kinda like saying a mini-van is not a passenger car so it can pass bad crash tests.

I for one laugh!!! HAHAHA Gift cards are lame, anyone who buys them deserves this.

Re:Gift Vouchers are stupid.

[p2psecure.com]

Washington state recently (or very soon) passed a law that does away with expiration dates on gift cards. I know this'll reward my forgetful and lazy ass in about 3 years from now...

There is more to the story . . . .

[pariahdecss]

There is a side of the story that they are not reporting. The hackers Jeb and Jesse are using the hacked value cards to buy more value cards - hmmmmmm?

10 CLS
20 PRINT "Always Low Prices. ALWAYS"
30 GOTO 20

I think this has been going on for a while...

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember reading a while back that one of the major retailers, possibly walmart had gift cards with sequential serial numbers, stored on the magstripe in plaintext, so anyone with a card reader/writer can easily change the id stored on the gift card.

Theres an 800 number you can call to find out the card's balance, so it just takes a little time and guesswork to find a card number with a balance on it.

Re:I think this has been going on for a while...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I remember where I read this. It was a story on slashdot from several years ago. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/29/1414258.shtm l
Looks like the link to the article is dead, though.

Re:I think this has been going on for a while...

[LucidBeast]

They also have an online balance cheking though this needs a pin code. link

Is the pin a new addition? If not, someone could have used it to their advantage.

I would start the investigation by checking the clerk who sold this card. After that check who's reading the database where card registrations are stored. After that start checking the pipes for leaks. Going through all that is a big job though.

Funny thing about wireless is that many people consider it inherently unsecure, but at least usually it's pretty easy to have the transmission encrypted even by a novice. This is unlike ethernet where you have to start configuring some sort of VPN, which in a heterogenious equipment environment can be a nightmare if not impossible. Most likely data is not encrypted and culprit might even be able to just plug the listening device to some empty service desks network sockets (I have no idea how these are in wallmart, only been in one once, bought a pair of pants that let me down the first week I wore them).

Re:I think this has been going on for a while...

[Technician]

Hmmm Moderate or comment...

Calling the 800 number could cause a problem for the hacker.. The contested missing balance was checked by whom? The reciepant of the real card would have little reason to call the number before using the card. Caller ID blocking doesn't work on 800 numbers. It would be interesting to find out if any of the card balances were checked via the 800 number shortly before or after the card purchase.

Re:Owned!

[zzottt]

do a search on google for Walmart customers and IQ and you will find that most of the results agree with me. Generaly Walmart customers are stupid.

Why steal when you can make?

[usefool]

If someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration data, why can't this someone just get a pre-paid card, and change its value according with all matching/tracking records in the database?

In this case, no other customer is going to report missing money, and this someone can quietly purchase and "top up" the card regularly until maybe the auditing season.

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[jolyonr]

Probably indicates that someone has read-only access to the data, or is somehow sniffing the data on the wire.

Jolyon

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[aldoman]

Maybe:

a) They haven't thought of that. I'm sure I'd have problems thinking everything through if I'd just worked out a way to get as much money as I want.

b) Maybe they have problems rewriting the database without being caught (or maybe the records get locked apart from being deleted?)

We don't even know if they have access to the database. They could be something far more sinister behind it.

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[Tony Hoyle]

Plug a wireless AP into their network and sit outside in the car sniffing packets... easy enough.

You'd probably get a few of their passwords that way too.

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[name773]

or far less sinister, as one poster reasoned

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[SealBeater]

If someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration
data, why can't this someone just get a pre-paid card, and change its value
with all matching/tracking records in the database?

There might be a system of checks and balances, like the card not being
activated unless/until the til is checked at the end of the day, to prevent the
employees simply issuing themselves cards. It might even check against a different
database..other than the above pure speculation, I agree.

SealBeater

Re:Why steal when you can make?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would the store care if an employee steals money by issueing themselves cards and not paying for them? Either the cashier sells a $100 card to themselves for $0.00 or they just don't put any money in the till for it. Either way the company will keep the security tapes and the register journal until they hit the fellony level and have them arrested. They hold the cashier's last paycheck to make sure the person will have the money to pay the store back. Security gets to make an example out of someone, increase their theft recovery stats, and the store doesn't really lose any money.

Re:Owned!

[cyberfunk2]

The joke is inherent in the intentional misspelling of "customers".

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[cammoblammo]

Man, I thought I was doing well without having to RTFA, but you made me read it anyway.

The injustice is that you now get *good* karma!

Or system error...

[plover]

Yeah, I know replying to yourself is bad karma, but I just thought of another possibility: system error.

Walm*rt may have an error in their central authorizing servers that's "confusing" redemption replies. Imagine a server that accepts requests from tens of thousands of different registers (probably a mainframe.) All those responses have to go back to the place they came from. What if a response was corrupted and an approval went back to a wrong register?

Or what if a request was corrupted? What if some stack corruption in their register changed a 12345 into a 22345, and they just happened to match a card issued elsewhere?

Or, what if the manufacturers screwed up and printed duplicate serial numbers on the backs of a batch of cards? Jane Doe goes to buy a card, but that serial number was already purchased by John Smith in a different state. If Jane's purchase request was made "offline", the card would be given to her immediately, but the card activation would have to be made after she left. Now, if Jane redeems her card, she uses John's value. Walm*rt would have no way to go back to Jane to say "Sorry, we gave you a bad card."

For these scenarios to work with a card being cashed within hours of being issued seems highly unlikely until you remember one thing: Walm*rt operates over 8000 stores, with probably over 200,000 POS registers, each of which is cranking through perhaps two or three hundred transactions a day. When you start factoring in just how many transactions might be corrupted, having a couple of "unlikely" coincidences seems more like a statistical certainty than a random chance.

Re:Or system error...

[DragonMagic]

I believe most people do away with this with the checksum digit at the end of most cards. This is to prevent problems with scanning or typing in cards.

In credit cards, it's nearly impossible to screw up a single number and have it work; with ISBNs, it's a little harder so you don't accidentally ring someone up a higher or lower cost item; etc.

Re:Or system error...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or what if your grandma is a uber-l33t hacker. Who is using those trips to Walmart to cash in and bring you back that new Linux Desktop with shirt. The one with the bear on it, made in Korea.

What if... yeah, what if.

Re:Or system error...

[Colol]

The number printed on the card is really irrelevant -- they're read by the mag stripe reader at the POS, both for activation and debit (just clarifying; not discounting your idea). This actually makes production flaws all the more interesting to me. What if the machinery kept printing the right numbers, but every card produced was given the same serial in the stripe?

Walmart's cards are "rechargeable" after all (and anyone can add funds to any card), so the POS system might not find anything wrong with 100 people crediting $20 to card 412345678.

Heck, you could walk out with some gift cards that hadn't been activated yet, reprogram/restripe them to match your card, and stick them back on the shelf. As long as you knew when the balance was increased, you'd have a veritable cornucopia of digital cashflow. Granted, you're limited to spending it at Walmart or Sam's Club, but it's there.

Re:Or system error...

[jrockway]

He's saying a bit gets flipped somewhere far away. Maybe an "i++" got interpreted as an "i+=0" because a cosmic ray hit the memory (or the memory was overheating).

This is not a human error, it's a computer error. (Which was programmed by humans that could have erred, but you know what I mean. It's not the cashier's fault.)

Re:Or system error...

[Anonymous Coward]

At Target, our gift cards activated instantly. They can also be activated more than once. So if someone bought a card for $50 and someone else bought a card with the same barcode for $50 the card would have $100 on it. The person in the article said that there was one credit of $150 on the card and one redemption of $150. WalMart might not have the same sort of system, but I would assume that they would want to let people refill the cards and also spend the value immediately.

Re:Or system error...

[DavidTC]

Oh, god, that's genius.

And you can even expand it. Forget reprogramming cards, purchase them by sticking a buck on them (or however little they allow), read the code, repaint the scratched off code, and stick them back on the shelf.

Then you copy the code onto another card and keep going in and asking if there's any money on that card.

Re:Or system error...

[NicenessHimself]

There was actually a successful fraud using this scheme. An (unknown) gang successfully printed seemly normal paying-in slips but with the magnetic ink account number being their own. They placed these in The Old Lady of Threadneedle Street bank in London. In just a few days, they ran away with millions and were never traced.

Unsurprising

[wayward]

Walmart is not known for compensating its employees well, and the turnover rate seems to be high. (Its economic impact on communities is generally not good either, that that's another topic.) It doesn't seem too surprising that insider theft might be a problem for them.

Re:Unsurprising

[plover]

Does this include their technical staff? I mean George the Greeter probably isn't likely to be the hacker in this case, nor is virtually anyone working in the stores. Only their tech staff would be the ones who know the protocols for the gift card authorizations. And they're probably the more loyal employees.

Unless it's as simple as a previous poster mentioned: pay off Nate the Night Shelf Stock Boy to get a few minutes access into a wiring closet and plant an access point. They could probably sniff the protocols easy enough, at least to see a gift card authorization and recognize the number. Then, it's a SMOH (Small Matter of Hacking) to find POS servers and/or registers elsewhere in the network. Sniff, sniff, hack, hack, and the gift card scam is underway.

snort

[zogger]

walmart slave labor in china, 13-16 hour days at 13 cents an hour, 7 days a week, 20 hour shifts during rush season like for christmas shopping. That's all -american walmart for ya. And they claim US workers need to be more productive and to compete globally with that. How? Magic fairy dust?

And they can't even keep their cards secure. What a joke.

Walmart single handedly has shutdown thousands of small town down town areas all over the nation. That's the new culture, a big square ugly box of a building, they all look the same, all got the same cheapest crap imaginable for sale. Largest corp in the world, bigger even then the energy companies. They come into a town, and do what is in essence "dumping" for a few years, incredibly cheap prices, until all the local competition is hosed, then they run the prices back up. Shop elsewhere-sure, go over to the next county, the same walmart.

I'm surprised walmart and microsoft haven't merged yet, exact same business philosphy.

Re:snort

[Edmund Blackadder]

they probably had their code written by a poor teenage girl in honduras who was getting whipped by a mean guard while she was trying to compile. I can just imagine it:

"more linking errors??? You are going to get it now BITCH!!!!" *whip* *whip*

Re:snort

[be-fan]

Welcome to capitalism. Take the heat or get out of the fire.

Re:snort

[prichardson]

Wow, that's some dark humor there. Geez...

Re:snort

[Mazem]

I'm surprised walmart and microsoft haven't merged yet, exact same business philosphy.

Except that Microsoft is consistently ranked as one of the best companies to work for. They may ruthlessly snuff out competition, but they keep their employees happy.

Re:snort

[zogger]

I'll give ya a +1 for a good point.

Re:snort

[Anonymous Coward]

That is hilarious. Why? Because Microsoft isn't even SMART ENOUGH to sell gift cards. Little low teech Wal Mart showed them!

Re:snort

[Anonymous Coward]

Hasn't Microsoft been sued for keeping "temp" employees who are really Microsoft employees (i.e., Microsoft management can promote and fire them) so they can cut them out of benefits ?

I seem to remember a number of legal issues between Microsoft and it's employees, most memorably the fellow they fired for taking a picture of Apple computers on the logging dock and posting it on his blog.

I keep track of what companies are historically known for legal fights against their own employees. It seems to be kind of a Northwestern / California thing: Intel (Randal Schwartz, that guy who kept sending email to all employees, numerous others), Apple (fires and sues/prosecutes employees for leaking secrets on a regular basis), Microsoft. Most large corporations will pay a reasonable amount to keep certain kinds of bad employee relationships from becoming public, even it means giving money to someone who is in the wrong; these guys either hire especially poor characters, or like legal entanglements.

I keep the small company that I run from having any direct business relationship with places like that. To me, if you are suing or being sued by your employees a lot, it's just a sign of a poorly run outfit no matter whose fault it is, and I can't afford to dabble in depositions for 3 years everytime there was a misunderstanding on some contract.

Re:snort

[weijiao]

Evidence? Contrary to popular belief, working hours in China are regulated and those quoted are in the realm of fantasy.

Re:snort

[zogger]

sorry, I didn't save the link, but I got those from a research paper that was showing that despite offical chinese minimum wage (at the time the paper was written, 2 years ago), the wage was 31 cents/hr, a lot of workers in heavily industrialised areas were in fact working for much less than that and with very long hours per day. I probably should have posted the link as well, sorry, I'll do better next time.

My point was, there's no way to compete in the US against that. My second and more important point is, I can distinctly remember when almost all articles bought at any local store were in fact made in the USA, and they were both affordable, the quality was pretty fair,and the consequences of that were that many more USA workers had decent jobs and they were easier to find. As globalisation has continued, we have garnered high trade imbalances (it hasn't even stayed equal, it's gotten terribly skewed *not* in our favor, no one can dispute this), the dollar is steadily dropping in international worth, it is not rising, we have much higher incidences of personal and corporate bankruptcy, debt compared to savings is at record highs, we've swapped actual home ownership for perpetual home re and re re financing (basically renting forever at much higher cost) and pension systems in particular (private pensions, social security, government pensions) have gotten to the point that even the ones who promoted globalisation years ago are sounding the alarm, alan greenspan being one of them just last week in fact. Not sure internationally, but inside the US it's headed for a pretty big collapse, a cascading default situation. And walmart is a big part of the problem all by themselves. I think it's exactly telling they are constanly pushing commercials about walmart on TV that aren't selling anything but the concept of walmart being "american". Not "such and such on sale today at walmart", nope, these I've seen are pure political propoganda commercials. They wouldn't need to do that if they were in fact "all american"as people would see it. Millions see they are NOT, walmart is reacting to it, but they cann't dispute the facts. You simply cannot compare a relatively low retail wage and in-country retail job with a wealth producing manufacturing wage, and one where the currency stays inside the border where it gets spent and re spent and re spent again. You cannot ignore the huge amounts of money that are permanently transferrred out of the country, that's this trade deficit thing. Every year, we have a constant and growing trade imbalance not in the US favor. If globalisation and walmart itis worked, we wouldn't be seeing that. It exists because we are swapping temporary huge gains for a small subset of the population in exchange for again, temportarily cheaper consumer prices and lower quality articles. Eventually the system will eat itself as even the cheapest of the articles will be non affordable as there won't be enough people working with enough surplus income to maintain the growth figures needed to keep building walmarts. In my opinion we've already crossed that point and are existing on massive national credit now and not in any sort of produced wealth normal trading.

Re:Owned!

[MedHead]

I guess you havnt been to a small town that has been taken over by Walmart?

And what's so bad with Wal*Mart coming in to a small town? You don't like new jobs in a small town? My uncle would be extremely pleased if a Wal*Mart came into his area - right now he's working in a lumber mill that caused his hands to be crushed several times now, and he's making less than a cashier at a retail store! Don't assume every person weeps when the "evil" Wal*Mart builds a store. Your choice of words - "taking over" - is quite negative, when a new Wal*Mart in the area definitely is not something negative.

All large companies today began as small companies in the past. To complain that Wal*Mart doesn't give Ed's Groceries a chance is ridiculous. Wal*Mart didn't suddenly pop into a super size existence - it grew. It grew from the size small businesses are today. Those small businesses are the same size of company as Wal*Mart was years ago. Wal*Mart started before those new companies. Early bird gets the worm. Small business is risky. It's life. You move on. And all those other clichés.

On another note, why are there users here writing Wal*Mart's name as "WalM*rt"? Is there some phobia with writing the name properly? Are people so angst-ridden that they can't handle writing out the name? Are they in fear of somehow paying backhand respect to a company that is so "evil" that by writing out the name they and their children are cursed for all eternity? Grow up people, write the name for crying out loud. It's not going to kill you.

Okay, rant's over. Please don't take this for trolling. I just don't like anal attitudes about simple, petty things. It gets to me.

It seems.

[ftgow]

The cracker must be low on paper towels and socks.

Re:Owned!

[AresTheImpaler]

do a search on google for Walmart customers and IQ and you will find that most of the results agree with me. Generaly Walmart customers are stupid.

I went to google and tried a search for "walmart customers and IQ." It didn't find any pages that suggest that walmart customers are stupid. At least that has has facts you can trust. There were 2 links that had other people say that Walmart customers are stupid. Unfortunately I do not believe them. Hell, I don't even know who they are and/or if they are researchers, professors, or any one doing some kind of study about the IQ's of walmart customers.

If what you are trying to say is that walmart customers in general have a lower education level. Then this could be debatable. But a lower education level is not the same as being stupid.

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[Tony Hoyle]

law enforcement at the highest levels possible, to rectumfy the problem

Looks like the cuplrit is going to really get it in the ass...

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[Cerebris]

From the parent: A corporate spokesman says the company, " is working with law enforcement at the highest levels possible, to RECTUMFY the problem and catch the people responsible." (all caps mine)

I wonder just what rectumfying is. Maybe it's like "radidzomai" in Greek (to be buggered by a raddish), or the Tossed Salad Man. I'll bet rectumfying would deter anyone else from hacking gift cards!

-Colin

Re:Owned!

[cmacb]

There are two Walmarts "near" me. One is 20 miles to the north, the other is 15 miles to the south. They are the two closest "department" store operations near me, although I can drive 30 miles or so east to a Sears. I can't see how either of the Walmarts have put anyone out of business. There were no department stores here before Walmart, now, there are still none, but the Walmarts are at least within a days drive. Walmart does not have a very large selection in some areas, particularly computers. What they do have represents good "value", with no-names at the low end and HP and Compaqs at the "high" end. For online 3D game-play you probably need something a bit better than you are going to find at Walmart (in the stores at least, their mail-order selection is better). For what I do with a computer most of the time (web, email, photo and music collection, etc. these mid-range computers (some of which are available without the Microsoft tax) are more than adequate. For me and other people in my situation you are not going to get us to feel guilty for going to Walmart, so you might as well stop trying. You shop wherever you want to, and I'll do the same.

Lots of bubbles, not many cameras

[slk]

While this is from approximately third-hand sources, wal-mart type stores have lots of those glass bubbles that look like they should contain a camera.

However, in most cases, only a few actually contain cameras. They might move the cameras around, but remember, wally-world labor is cheap, glass bubbles are cheap, and cameras are expensive.

Re:Lots of bubbles, not many cameras

[ThomaMelas]

Not really. You can pick up a decent CCTV camera for about $200 (cheaper if you're willing to accept a cheap bullet type or lower). It would be cheaper in the long run to just place the cameras and have the cable runs then it would be to move the cameras.

Re:Lots of bubbles, not many cameras

[r_j_prahad]

I can buy a fixed-focus B&W monitor camera for under $100. And I'll bet Wally-World's cameras aren't on az-el mounts either. So the wiring to the bubbles probably costs more than what they pay for the cameras - it'd be a shame to leave a camera position empty to save a few bucks.

They do have logs.

[nietzsche_freak]

They do log when and where the cards are activated and emptied. From TFA:

Carol's shopping card was purchased in Olympia, and days later, cashed out by a stranger at the Wal-Mart in Chehalis even though Carol still had the card.

"Here's my receipt," Carol points to the shopping card notation at the bottom which reads: "Shop card reception 0.00"

In Tami's case, her receipt shows the $150.00 card was activated at 11:32 in the morning, then cashed out three hours later in a another state!

My guess is they'll nail the ones responsible in short order, seeing as how they know dates, times, and locations, and no doubt have decent electronic surveillance inside their stores as well (for all those pesky shoplifters ).

Re:They do have logs.

[CaptBubba]

The cameras are not aimed at the customers, they are aimed at the cashiers. My mother had her mastercard stolen and they pulled the camera records when it was used, and while you could clearly see the cash register and drawer, the thief's face was far enough outside of the camera's focus that he was unidentifiable.

Of course, if it was an inside job this could be useful.

Re:They do have logs.

[ergo98]

Of course this is because most retail shrinkage is due to employee committed crime (rather than the oft blamed customer).

Re:They do have logs.

[DavidTC]

While it sounds like an inside job, or at least someone with access to the store's systems, the cashier they're using the card at wouldn't have anything to do with it.

Re:They do have logs.

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but the point was that in this case the cameras don't help since they're either aimed at people walking out of the store (shoplifting), walking around store aisles (shoplifting), or at the cashiers (with enough focus to remove the customer from the picture).

If someone robs a cashier, they'll get picked up by the cameras by the doors, and it'll be very obvious who that person is. The cashier, on the other hand, needs to be watched like a hawk so they don't pocket a precious, precious $2 bill every couple weeks, and rather than lose focus with a wider shot, they've got the cameras zoomed in on the registers.

These people are exploiting a weakness in the average retailer's camera system. How long until they get nailed by a camera that's aim is a little off is anyone's guess.

I suspect it's organized crime related, and not necessarily an inside job. They could certainly be exploiting an 802.11 link and hacking the system from inside, just like an insider would. Most 802.11 APs are, stupidly, placed inside firewalls...

Corporate Policy?

[Bowling Moses]

Given how Walmart mistreats its employees (forced unpaid overtime, automatic firing for even *thinking* of getting unionized, illegal immigrant janitors making well below minimum wage and locked in the stores at night, etc.) and how Walmart systematically ruins local economies, and who knows what else, would it surprise anyone at all if some Walmart executive would have the system set up to wipe out gift cards X% of the time? In Walmart's case assuming a system compromised by petty theft is just unwarranted--systematic and corporate-sanctioned theft may be more appropriate.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[adzoox]

"Walmart systematically ruins local economies"

That's the troll statement of the day.

The new Walmart in my town added 38 MILLION a year to the tax base - usually does when one moves to town - prevents taxes from being raised.

As for the little guy that is claimed "to be put out of business by Walmart" - I say - if you can't take the heat - get out the kitchen.

Walmarts are cleaner, cheaper, and better staffed and employ more people than the US government now! Do they have problems yes - some of the problems you mentioned? possibly. But your statements are FUD and some of them untrue.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[penguinoid]

Um, no. If Wallmart were actually robbing their own custumers illegaly, they would take a lot of backlash, probably enought to wipe them out. At the very least they need to keep up an appearance of being nice and trustworthy.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[zaren]

Walmarts are cleaner, cheaper, and better staffed...

Wow, where do you live? The Wal-Marts that I've been in have all been thoroughly trashed (half-eaten food stuffed in behind the unfolded piles of clothes in the display racks, unwanted clothes piled up alongside the stereo equipment), no less expensive than any other store in the area (unless you WANT something that MIGHT work the second time you use it), and staffed with people - regardless of age - that can't make change in their head (or even with the aid of the register) or realize that breakable items go in the TOP of the bag, and not the BOTTOM.

Give me a mom-and-pop store that actually CARES what they look like to - and how they treat - the customer any day.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[atrizzah]

Wow, where do you live?

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forced overtime? That's crazy. At other retail stores overtime is strictly forbidden. Our store was held accountable for its payroll. They had to have a really good explanation for any extra hours even if it wasn't over 40.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

My sentiments exactly ... I would honestly like to know so I can report them to corporate headquarters. Walmarts are suppose to be to a VERY high standard - it's one reason they excelled beyond Kmart - Kmarts were consistently as you described.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't say forced paid overtime.

~~~

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what you're saying is, just because Wallmart moved into town people magically started spending $38 MILLION dollars more than they used to? Hahaha. Yeah, right - money just doesn't just materialize out of thin air, it had to come from somewhere...

More likely, a bunch of people in surrounding towns started coming to Wallmart, right? What happens when Wallmart decides to build a store in one of those towns too? What happens when all the nice tax breaks your town gave Wallmart to build the store in your town dry up, and they pull up shop and leave? Too bad you screwed all those other local businesses - now you get to drive to some other town to get your shopping done (guess what happens to your local taxes now!). Maybe the town didn't throw in any tax breaks - did they do a bunch of road work for the store? Who paid for that? Who's subsidizing all the Wallmart worker's healthcare that the company is too cheap to cover?

Sure, Wallmart saved YOUR taxes from being raised - for a while. You can bet someone else's taxes just got higher. It's going to cost you one way or another eventually, and probably more than it otherwise would now that you're directly or indirectly subsidizing Wallmart's corporate profits.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[ciggieposeur]

Pretty much anywhere south of Mason-Dixon line.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[bluGill]

Minnesota. I've never been in a wal-mart as trashed as you say. (though this is a tiny sample)

When Wal-Mart came to town all those mom-and-pop stores that we went to only because they were close went out of business. Those that actually had customer service did just fine. It was Ben Franklin and Pamada (two local chains that were no better than wal-mart) that left. Good riddance to them all.

Before wal-mart people drove half and hour to the mall for all their big shopping, after wal-mart they could shop locally.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[nmos]

Given how Walmart mistreats its employees (forced unpaid overtime, automatic firing for even *thinking* of getting unionized, illegal immigrant janitors making well below minimum wage and locked in the stores at night, etc.)

What makes you think these things happen any more in Walmart than other retailers (including "Mom & Pop" stores)?

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Bowling Moses]

In our system in the US, the law generally belongs to the side with the highest paid lawyers. Walmart makes 2% of the US gross domestic product, therefore for all practical purposes they have an unlimited amount of money to spend on lawyers. Joe Paluka, defrauded by Walmart of $50, hasn't got squat in comparison...not even if there are a 100,000 fighting it--that's just a total payment of a paltry $5 million. After Walmart's lawyers have dragged it out for 2+ years there's not much incentive for a (competent) law firm to fight it. Walmart knows this, and given how they mistreat their employees and the communities in which they place their stores it is simply a question of is it worth Walmart's time to defraud their customers given the a) negligible chance of a defrauded customer winning in court b) the law team's paychecks c) the negative publicity...assuming that it comes out at all, of course (Hey newspaper! No more adverts if there's too much negativity! Now bark like a dog. Good boy!).

Just look at Diebold for an example. Diebold did more than just steal a few tens of dollars from a few thousand people. Diebold subverted the electoral process by "accidentally" converting a few thousand democratic votes into a few thousand republican votes via a software "bug." Was Diebold keelhauled in the courts? Was the corporation dismembered for voter fraud? Are the executives currently the being cornholed by thier very best *special* freind Big Al, their 350 pound 6' 4" roomie at San Quentin? Nope. They're doin' just fine enjoying their bonuses. Wake up and smell the coffee: If you're rich, you're impervious...and Walmart's as rich as they come. They make Haliburton and Enron look like shoeshine boys.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Bowling Moses]

Did Walmart really add $38 million to the tax base or did that $38 million come from somewhere? Now a Walmart might slightly increase the local tax base because of out of towners comming in to do shopping since it is slightly more convenient to do all your shopping in one place, but more likely than not that $38 million simply came from smaller local shops not getting the business they used to and thus paying less in income tax.

Now we all know that very few, if any, local Mom 'n' Pop stores can compete with the Walmart juggernaut. Now although we do live in Fear of Walmart comming to a town near us, Uncertainty that Walmart may show interest in our little business, and Denial that our store will go bankrupt because we're now competing with almightly Walmart, none of my statements were untrue and I challenge you to prove it!

Re:Corporate Policy?

[adzoox]

Yes,

business taxes
local option sales tax
paycheck deductions

Look, I said it perfectly in the parent - if you are small - you are saying at the first sign of competition that you won't/can't compete! Good riddance with that attitude.

Ever heard of promotions?

How about offering classes?
Fashion classes
Pharmaceutical education/blood/heart monitoring/Cholesterol

I would challenge you to prove me wrong that fewer than 80% of the taxes generated are new taxes.

A previous post mentioned infrastructure - well that's a fact of nature. Businesses by the dozens locate near WalMarts and come to town and MOVE near them. They provide a mini economy of their own.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was Ben Franklin and Pamada (two local chains that were no better than wal-mart) that left. Good riddance to them all.

Those aren't mom-n-pop stores, those are just poorly run chains.

A mom-n-pop store is more commonly referred to as a company that owns only a single store, or maybe up to half a dozen.

The problem with Wal*mart is that it basically abuses a flaw in the "free trade" concept. Freedom of choice only works where both buyers / sellers / suppliers are all on roughly equal footing. Where a buyer can go elsewhere if they don't like the seller (or the seller with the supplier or vice-versa).

When a supplier has monopoly advantage, the seller has no choice but to pay the monopoly price. When a seller has too much power, they get to dictate prices to the supplier. The supplier can't go elsewhere or the powerful seller will pull their business. Sometimes, the supplier isn't even allowed to sell to other sellers which puts them even more at the mercy of the powerful seller.

And the consumers end up with cheap crap.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, Wallmart saved YOUR taxes from being raised - for a while. You can bet someone else's taxes just got higher. It's going to cost you one way or another eventually, and probably more than it otherwise would now that you're directly or indirectly subsidizing Wallmart's corporate profits.

The bigger issue is the amount of money that is now leaving the local economy for wherever Walmart is based (or buys their product from).

Oh wait... that's probably the *trade deficit* we hear so much about.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[WuphonsReach]

What makes you think these things happen any more in Walmart than other retailers (including "Mom & Pop" stores)?

It may, but with dozens of smaller stores, it's easier to vote with your feet or seek a job at one of the other stores.

Not so easy if your choice is only work at the mega store or be unemployed.

A bit over-the-top, but the basic point is that when too much power ends up in a single company's hands, consumers and workers usually end up with the short end of the stick.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Bowling Moses]

Business tax that Walmart gets out of via tax incentives--of which this is just an example. Where can the local store go to get its $10 million and 350 acres of land to compete? This is only one of the things that large corporations do to unfairly squeeze out the little guy.

Local option sales tax won't help. There will be a little more tax from a few more people from out of town comming in attracted by the convenience of doing all their shopping in one place. This will do nothing against $10 million and 350 acres, even if stretched out for many years. Also there will be a loss of sales tax because people with lower wages buy less. There will of course be a large loss from local businesses going under as they will no longer be paying business tax...the tax that Walmart gets reduced/exempted from as an incentive. For taxes a Walmart comming to town is probably a net negative.

Paycheck deductions--I guess the moderators were correct when they modded your first post as "troll" because this proves it. We all know that when Walmart comes to town there are reductions in people's paychecks.

Fashion classes at Walmart...that's really over the top. So's the idea of a special sale on toasters saving the town from financial ruin, and the "mini economy" of a Walmart, burger joint, and gas station. Never did here where this $38 million mysteriously comes from...don't expect to either.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

you neither read nor comprehended anything - what an insensitive clod.

YOU moderated the post down previously admit it.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Found this in metamod - the troll should be corrected there.

Bowling Moses - you need to take an economics lesson.

I agree with the last post about comprehension.

There was no mention in the reply about fashion classes at Walmart - I believe the parent was saying local clothing stores could HOLD fashion classes or fashion shows to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from Walmarts.

I looked through your other posts too - you are obviously an areligious liberal nutjob.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[adzoox]

"...the seller has no choice but to pay the monopoly price"

Ummm Walmart sells HP, Sony, Perry Ellis (under the United brand), Nintendo, and just about any other high end, middle and low end brand for just about every product they sell.

Give ANY example where these same products are cheaper ANY where else. Oh and if you can find an obscure example Walmart beats it by 3%!

Their "monopoly" has hardly created a market for higher prices and cheap goods. If anything, their buying power has been a huge win for the consumer when shopping at large retail chains - Circuit City and Best Buy (two companies that do VERY well) don't hold to candle to competing products.

Re:Corporate Policy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice Southerner bash - but false. You'll find exceptions everywhere. But they are just that: exceptions.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer company

[Anonymous Coward]

I laugh at those bastards, I hope whoever's doing this bleeds them dry.

--
The only thing worse than being held hostage by Muslims is being rescued by Russians.

Re:Couldn't have happened to a nicer company

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you explain to me exactly how Walmart is being "bled dry" by people giving Walmart $20 in return for a 1 cent plastic card that either gets hacked (as per the article) or spent in a store?

Maybe I'm stupid, but I just don't see how Walmart loses out in this deal. ]

Not to interrupt your OT Walmart rant...

[Chordonblue]

But, what's wrong with China changing it's laws to better support their own people? If you are seriously suggesting that we stop using Chinese products then you'd better look around. In electronics, there's hardly any other choice. Why do you single out Walmart for this? Open your eyes and look in ANY other retail store.

The US simply can't compete with cheap labor like this so... We use it if they want to supply it.

Perhaps it would be better for these people to slave and die in the fields instead of becoming industrialized, but I'm not sure. Every nation that has gone through this process started this way - out of necessity.

Don't weep too uncontrolably for China. At the rate they're going their economy will soon dwarf the US. Pray that their governmental system changes before them or perhaps YOU will be working for .50 cents an hour.

Here's the simple solution.

[macdaddy357]

Here's the simple solution. Ditch the high tech whizbang gift cards, and go back to good old-fashioned paper gift certificates. That would be simple and effective, so it will probably never happen.

Re:Here's the simple solution.

[Edmund Blackadder]

So anyone with a high quality color printer can print them?

Re:Here's the simple solution.

[silentbozo]

The problem with paper gift certs is that, like coupons, they can be counterfieited fairly easily. If you start tracking gift certs via a centralized database, then you essentially have the same system that they have in place for stored value cards. This is a big issue for larger retailers, because having a stored value card system that can be deployed over an existing card-processing infrastructure saves them money, and allows for faster reconciling of accounts. It also saves them from having to give out cash in change for the remainder of the balance on a paper gift certificate.

Re:Here's the simple solution.

[Prof.Phreak]

...go back to good old-fashioned paper gift certificates

Like cash. If you want to give someone $20, just give them $20. It amazes me that people buy these gift cards---especially when they force someone to use that same store (ie: it's a win-win situation for the business... unless they give you a 10% discount on the gift cards, I don't see any point in getting one).

(with a discount, you could get yourself a gift card, and then turn around and purchase anything with it... saving 10% of anything you buy----so I doubt they do that).

Re:Here's the simple solution.

[TheLink]

10% discount may not be that good if they don't give you change when using the gift certs.

The store could be fine with 10% - treat it as Sale.

Re:Here's the simple solution.

[WuphonsReach]

Here's the simple solution. Ditch the high tech whizbang gift cards, and go back to good old-fashioned paper gift certificates. That would be simple and effective, so it will probably never happen.

Simpler would be:

1) Change the packaging on the gift cards so that they can't be swiped without obvious tampering.

2) Add a printed PIN code to the back of the card and treat them like you would a debit card where you have to enter a PIN to use it.

3) Don't do sequential runs of card numbers.

4) Along with #3, and for the more advanced LP schemes, toss "red flag" card numbers into the database.

Solution #1 would fix a *lot* of the issues, solution #2 would make it a bit better.

Out of curiosity

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you spell Wal-mart with a '*'? Do you think it's a swear word? Or are they like God in your religion?

nope

[morcheeba]

not an advert, just giving credit where it's due. Slashdot didn't change my submission at all (except putting it in the IT category).

Re:nope

[Anonymous Coward]

damn those bastards. this hideous radioactive beige. why do they put things in IT? This isn't even a topic that belongs in the IT category.

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[PReDiToR]

The injustice is that you now get *good* karma!

Not at all, dumb schmuck posted as AC.

slashdotted?

[Ryunosuke]

as of 5:48pm EST, I'm getting a "cannot find" error on it, /.'ed already? Anyone care to mirror the article?

Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[grolaw]

Where one of the cards was empty in three hours the problem is within the control of Wal Mart. If the matter is considered as a glitch in the system and the cards just expire too fast, well that is one thing...an error that Wal Mart should have caught.

If there is an insider trading information (that could NEVER happen, right?) then security is way off and Wal Mart still loses.

If the system is open to outsiders to hack and they have the ability to grab the latest cards purchased and burn data and make purchases within three hours then the system is way too open.

People who pull off these scams aren't interested in most goods - they want cash. I suppose that the easiest method is to buy a case or 10 of cigarettes or to try to return a high-dollar item. The former can be sold almost anywhere and the latter will give the thief cash, but only after a second pass at the Wal Mart chain. The latter is a high-risk approach and it isn't consistent with an ongoing breach...

If only a few stories are out about these cards, but the breach of the cash control system is so complete that the funds can be diverted within three hours, then the problem is far more common and serious than Wal Mart wants to disclose. The system must have been compromised so thoroughly that only a complete replacement would eliminate the problem. Wal Mart data mines (last I read, they had the largest database of consumer purchases on the planet) and these cards are clearly an integral part of their data capture system. The cost of "fixing" the system must be far greater than the losses thus far. Of course, that could be hundreds of millions of dollars....

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[reverse flow reactor]

If you don't spend the full value of the card, the balance should still remain on the card.

If you return an item to the store, they don't typically return cash. I returned a ~ large item, and they would only give it back in terms of store credit - i.e. value stored with the card. They refused to return it as cash or a credit to the credit card used to purchase the item.

Just be careful that they do give it back to you. I had a cashier try and keep my card even though it had $45 value left on it. She tossed it in the garbage after the transaction. I made sure she fished it out and returned it to me.

I've seen more 'fishy' cash-register things at Wal-Mart than any other store. Things like the cost of a good mysteriously increasing in price up to 50% between the shelf and the cash register. And, according to those who this has happened to, is a regular occurance.

Maybe it is just the Wal-Mart near here, but I really can't trust them.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[britneys 9th husband]

People who pull off these scams aren't interested in most goods - they want cash. I suppose that the easiest method is to buy a case or 10 of cigarettes or to try to return a high-dollar item. The former can be sold almost anywhere and the latter will give the thief cash, but only after a second pass at the Wal Mart chain. The latter is a high-risk approach and it isn't consistent with an ongoing breach...

Those ways are effective. Here's another:

http://search.ebay.com/gift-card_W0QQsokeywordredi rectZ1QQfromZR8

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[stephanruby]

"Things like the cost of a good mysteriously increasing in price up to 50% between the shelf and the cash register. And, according to those who this has happened to, is a regular occurance. "

This happens at many stores. Usually, it's because some item is being marked down for the week, but the store is taking its sweet time updating its database.

In California, the law is very clear about this. The price at the shelf always trumps the price at the cash register. We even have inspectors who make sure this law is enforced.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[Anonymous Coward]

The central system is usually updated on time. The most common reason for the price difference is employees not taking down sale signs when the sale is over.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[FFFish]

Wal Mart data mines (last I read, they had the largest database of consumer purchases on the planet) and these cards are clearly an integral part of their data capture system.

This is another neat thing about gift cards, in addition to the interest-free loan the purchaser makes to the company, and the lost value over time of card dollars due to inflation.

By using good data mining techniques, you can identify what products these gift cards are most likely to be used to purchase and how long it will be before that purchase takes place.

WalM*rt can then use your money to purchase a product for you just in time to sell it to you at a marked-up price! Make this system sophisticated enough and they become nothing more than a glorified FedEx, adding no value whatsoever to the product.

Pretty damn smart.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[grolaw]

Hmm...making use of your purchase history to market to you and the people like you? Isn't that the very reason that Wal Mart does data mining?

According to the WSJ the results of Wal Mart's data mining include the placement of goods in the entry to the store(s) (by region) according to season and holliday. The pricing of goods within the store are calculated to bring you in to buy the "loss leaders" but the product of the data mining profile they created from your purchases reveals that you will buy two packages of toilet paper (at a premium of $0.15 over all local local grocery stores) when you buy those -$0.05 discount flip-flops.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for Target, and the sale signs issue is pretty big. Also, misplaced products is another big issue when it comes to prices on the shelf & prices at the register.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[joeblakethesnake]

the price jumping 50% is only due to the fact that the workers in the dept. haven't changed the tags. Price changes come down from the home office, automatically print out on a printer in the back and its the responsibility of the floor associates to fix them. Its not "shady cash register scams". Of course that doesn't make it right, its not a "scam", they're not out to "get you". Walmart is a pretty ethical company, if you actually work there, you'll see that. People just like to blow up on them because they have alot of money.

Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when?

[Macgrrl]

Things like the cost of a good mysteriously increasing in price up to 50% between the shelf and the cash register. And, according to those who this has happened to, is a regular occurance.

When barcode scanners were introduced to supermarkets in Australia some years ago, there was a Code of Conduct published by the Consumer Affairs department which requires retailers to charge the lowest published price (including shelf tags and advertising materials). In fact, I seem to recall that it used to be that you got the item free, but if there were multiple items (such cans of soup), you got the first one free and paid the lower price for the remainder.

Re:Owned!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you work for Wormart? In my area, wormart's "super store" or whatever moved in, complete with lower paying jobs than the grocery stores, toy stores, and other businesses whose business they TOOK OVER.

This is America and I don't have to like it just cuz they started small and grew bigger. Hell, even if they cured cancer and Aids wouldn't mean I'd have to like them.

You ought to check your own anal attitude about simple, petty things.

Re:Owned!

[MedHead]

No, I don't work for Wal*Mart. Is that the only way folks here believe people can be positive about something so "evil"? I have a Wal*Mart in my area. I've shopped there. I've shopped at their competition - I've worked for their competition. Wal*Mart's fine with me.

I don't think defending a business would really be considered anal... my commment about the anal attitude was the spelling of Wal*Mart. Sorry for the confusion.

Re:Owned!

[hendridm]

And what's so bad with Wal*Mart coming in to a small town? You don't like new jobs in a small town? ... To complain that Wal*Mart doesn't give Ed's Groceries a chance is ridiculous.

Sweet! Now Ed can trade his family-owned grocery that made him enough to make ends meat for a

Early bird gets the worm. Small business is risky. It's life. You move on.

Monopolies hurt everyone (except the shareholder), not just the small business owner.

On another note, why are there users here writing Wal*Mart's name as "WalM*rt"?

I was wondering the same thing! I thought perhaps Walmart had become a swear in certain areas, like Canada or something. You know, "sh*t" is so much less offensive than "shit".

Re:Owned!

[Anonymous Coward]

customers, cyber, with an "s"

actually it hasn't been hacked.

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone can do this. all you need to do is write down the gift card number on the back of the card and then put it back on the rack. then some unknowing sap comes along buys that gift card that you have the number to, and thats all, wala, free gift card. walmart has an online store also so its not like you need a physical giftcard. just the numbers will do. this is more like a case of a dude discovering he got scammed than the walmart db getting hacked.

Re:actually it hasn't been hacked.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, obviously you haven't tried this.

Re:actually it hasn't been hacked.

[billgrava]

Actually, did this ever really happen? The "news" story in the link is dated June 10 (for the record, it's now September 5). I couldn't find any other reference to this alleged hack. It smells to me more like an urban legend (perhaps based in a local ripoff) making a second attempt to gain some traction...

Re:actually it hasn't been hacked.

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah thats what i thought too when i read the article. there are like 2 sites about it on the whole internet. if walmarts db got hacked, it would have been on cnn and their stock would have gone for a ride.

It won't bankrupt WalMart

[erick99]

About 45 billion dollars a year are spent on gift cards. Five to 10% are never cashed in. So, we are talking about 1/2 billion dollars of "additional profit." I've gotta believe that WalMart sells a sh*tload of gift cards and even at at redemption rate of 95% is coming out ahead millions a year. So, while it's no fun to pay out on the stolen cards twice, there is ample money in the bucket from the never-to-be-redeemed to cover the losses.

Cheers,

Erick

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[intekra]

I don't think you read the article. People like you and me who buy gift cards cannot use them because the funds have been emptied by hackers. So, they aren't paying them out twice, the average Joe is getting scammed out of the money.

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[erick99]

I did read the article. I was making the case that WalMart could pay out twice and still be well ahead.

Cheers,

Erick

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[eric76]

From the article:

As for making good on the stolen money?

"Well initially he told me that he really couldn't do anything for me," Tami Kegley says of the Wal-Mart employee she dealt with. "He said it was a corporate issue."

But Tami persisted, and got finally got the $150.00. Carol also got her money back.

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[wcdw]

Unfortunately for WalMart, this is NOT true. Uncashed gift certificates are typicall subject to escheet laws -- meaning that if they haven't been used in some period of time (two years in some states), the money must be given _to the state_.

The only thing they have going for them is the interst they can raise on the uncashed cards. (Except in states not subject to escheet law.)

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[Igmuth]

Which is why gift cards never last that long. After one year or so, they always charge you a "service fee" at some extremely high rate, so as to basically empty the account out before said turn over occurs. (Walmart may be different then basically every other company out there and not do this, but I highly doubt it. I don't know, not having dealt with their gift cards.)

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[ElizaYikes]

I read recently that Amazon.com's gift certificates are issued out of a separate division, which operates out of Idaho becuase of that state's favorable lack of escheat laws. Of course, I can't find where this was discussed, but I found this page, which mentions the Idaho laws.

"Careful legal planning can potentially reduce the risk of gift certificates becoming abandoned property. Incorporating the issuer of the gift certificate in a state that exempts gift certificates from its escheat can reduce liability since the state of incorporation is often the relevant state or determining escheat liability...Under Idaho law, gift certificates with an expiration date prominently displayed on their face will not be deemed abandoned."

Amazon.com states here that "Amazon.com gift certificates are issued and sold by A2Z Gift Certificates, Inc., an Idaho corporation. The risk of loss and title for gift certificates pass to the purchaser upon our electronic transmission to the recipient or delivery to the carrier, whichever is applicable."

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[Brynath]

you forgot this tidbit:

* Does not apply in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, or Washington; applies in New Hampshire only for gift certificates over $100. Expiration date does not apply in any other states where prohibited by law.

some states prohibit this to protect their residents. If you live in those states, they Never Expire!

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[Stephen Samuel]

It was a $150 card. It was worth persisting on. People who get scammed on a $25 gift card are more likely to just eat the loss and not spend 3 hours on the phone trying to get their money back.
I also wouldn't be completely shocked to find out that she got her money back shortly after Wallmart got their first press queries.

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, gift cards and gift certs cannot expire, if you have one of these that has an expiration date you're told that the store has to honor it. At least that is the law in California.

Re:It won't bankrupt WalMart

[LifesABeach]

Lets see if I understand this correctly.

Wal Mart has been found guilty of:

1. Not paying their bills.
2. Shaving time of employees time cards.
3. Destroying whole economies.
4. Is the champion of the minimum wage SALARY.

Is screaming that the bad guys are after them?

The interest on the money not used by all those 'Gift Cards' would be a telling story; Wouldn't it?

transexual?

[LighthouseJ]

anyone else except me read that part a couple times to make sure it's true? Generally you don't hear about transexuals in media.

Re:transexual?

[UserGoogol]

Uh, yeah... that wasn't in the original article. Tami bought it for her church group, not for her transsexual group.

Re:transexual?

[jrockway]

gee you mean you can modify the article when you cut-n-paste it to slashdot?

Re:transexual?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not even spelt right. :)

Re:transexual?

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't be serious ...

Re:transexual?

[LighthouseJ]

I am joking, just the fact that it was changed to transexual was odd. It would have been just as odd to use feminists or what-have-you. Relax.

Re:transexual?

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you mean they're not the same thing?

Why the hell have I been going to church then?!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

lol this is funny....

[Anonymous Coward]

what next? are these crazed redneck hackers gonna rip of a menards? a kresgee k mart?
toilet paper and snacks, haha good work bro...

Interesting

[Pan T. Hose]

I find it very interesting that people are willing to buy those "value cards," compromised or otherwise. Similar cards were used in Soviet Russia, but no one seemed to like them, so one has to ask a question: what's wrong with money in the United States? Is it because people don't want to have cash so they are less attractive targets for criminals? After all, who would want to steal "value cards"? Well, obviously this is not the case, as the story shows. This is a very interesting issue, a one much more important than this incident alone. Why people don't want to pay with USD?

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash transactions in the USA have largely been discouraged because of the war on .

So, you want to pay cash? TERRORIST!!!

Re:Interesting

[iansmith]

I think you are asking the wrong question.

Don't ask why people in the US don't want to spend cash, but why people in Russia are not willing to put money into company cards.

It seems obvious to me that the reason we buy gift cards in the United States is because people here are very confident in the rule of law. If I go into a big chain I am very confident that the store is not going to blatantly steal my money. I also feel pretty good that they will exist tomorrow. I also am confident that any large store that DOES rip me off will be caught and dealt with by the authorities.

In Russia, this may not be the case since things are so chaotic from the switch to a free market. It may be that people in Russia are simply not willing to give money to somone without a product in return for fear of being ripped off. "I give you $50 and I get a card and a promise that I can get goods later? Yeah, right! Who is going to make you honor that promise?"

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Son, you sound like you've been listening to Communists. These are Bad People, bringing in poisonous, evil thoughts that try to destroy the American Way.

If you love your Mother and Father, you must learn to recognize these people, and shun them. It's for your own protection, and for your own good.

It's only because we stand strong, together, that we can withstand the the Communists. If nothing else, remember this: we are one nation, undivided, and Walmart's Value Card is the backbone of our currency: nothing shall dilute it, nothing shall weaken it, and by the blood of our sons and daughters we will support its strength!

There will always be those who will, with evil malice, endeavour to redeem the same Gift Card twice, but we will fight them back with the same dogged spirit that brought this Nation out of slavish bondage.

And this is why, at this time when our nation stands at the face of a great divide, this is why I ask you now as a proud American Citizen, to patriotically turn in your cash for WalMart value cards, to truly show that you have as much faith in WalMart as you do this proud nation, not just in plain words but in true, solid cash.

It is not a purchase; it is an investment that we make when we purchase WalMart Value Cards, and, as God is my witness, if we all pull together and put up our shoulders to the mighty yoke of industry that is more commonly known as WalMart, we will achieve our goal! By God, we will accept nothing less than VICTORY!

Re:Interesting

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's pretty tacky. It's the thought that counts, not the gift. Giving cash requires, as you say, no thought.

Also, cash is typically the gift of a senior to a junior. If my little brother tried to give me cash for my birthday, I'd just laugh at him, return it, and tell him to get a real gift or don't even try. I'd also be a bit offended for him not knowing this already.

Re:Interesting

[geminidomino]

To expand on that:

Never, EVER, *EVER* give your girlfriend/wife cash for her birthday or your anniversary.

Trust me on this.

Re:Interesting

[unixdad]

I wish I had mod points.
I've been married for over 15 years, and my wife reports that one of the best gifts I've ever given her (among another diamond ring, necklaces, clothes, furniture, etc.) is a gift certificate to a day of _interested_ shopping with me (ie. no hint from me that I'm tired of going back and forth between stores, that I really don't have an opinion on which item of clothing I like better, etc.)

This was also one of the hardest for me to give, as well. It's not that I'm not interested in shopping (or that I'm not interested in her) or in having her in nice clothes- it's that I honestly don't think my advice wrt clothes purchasing is worth very much.

Quite off-topic, but maybe it will help some well-intentioned but inexperienced male. :)

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as a known fetishist, I must say that fortunately, I am interested in shopping (and this is an understatement) provided these are:

1. shoes
2. stocking
3. pantyhose
4. socks
5. panties
6. glasses
7. hats
8. dresses
9. pants
10. sweaters

The only problem is my constant erection, though.

MOD DOWN!

[Anonymous Coward]

Browser hijacking trojans in parent links! Watch out, I had to shut down my computer to keep it from deleting all my files!

Re:A emperical study

[base3]

Clicking on .info domains is inadvisable while they're being given away free. Until after the holiday when the abuse desk folks, they'll still resolve.

Re:A emperical study

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this abuse? Please cite relevant TOS sections.

I don't know about where you're from...

[Phil John]

...but here if we don't know what to buy someone we buy them gift vouchers. Some stores have now started offering vouchers in a credit-card type form-factor. It gets charged with a certain amount of money and you can actually get something you won't return or exchange anyway, therfore removing that embarrasing moment when they come over to visit and don't find their vase/picture/abomination (delete as appropriate) in pride of place - everyone's a winner.

My significant other and I bought most of the essential things we needed for our new house (champagne flutes, wine glasses, whisky tumblers and 250 count egyptian cotton sheets...the usual necessities ;o) with one her dad gave her for a very nice department store here in the U.K.

Every get anywhere with ebay's legal dept?

[grolaw]

I have a client who bought a software product from an eBay auction. The product was offered as a "remainder" that was "unopened" and eligible for upgrade.

What the client received for $350 was a pirated copy of the software.

I sent notices off to the software company and to eBay's legal dept. I had no answers. A couple of years ago I had very rapid responses to such communications from an attorney.

Perhaps eBay is the way these cards are turned into cash...but the 3 hour turnaround isn't consistent with eBay....

Re:Every get anywhere with ebay's legal dept?

[russint]

Too bad you didn't just download it in the first place eh?

Re:A emperical study

[Anonymous Coward]

'Until after the holiday when the abuse desk folks, they'll still resolve.'

What does this mean?

and my family wonders...

[rubberbando]

why I always ask for cash each year for my birthday and christmas... ^_^;

War on .?

[Pan T. Hose]

Cash transactions in the USA have largely been discouraged because of the war on .

War on .? You mean, war on /., right?

Re:A emperical study

[Anonymous Coward]

He is just a censorship nazi. Like when Nazi's want to take down pro-Jewish websites because they 'slander' the good name of the nazi regieme (whatever), this guy wants to take down a website because it support pro-homosexual and pro-black viewpoints.

is anyone else thinking what i'm thinking

[real_smiff]

i think it was the grandparent wot did it!

come on, he knows how to do it, he knows Wal-Mart rather well, he posted anon.. it's got to be him!

call the cops. ha, he shouldn't have posted to /., we're too smart for him.

Re:A emperical study

[Anonymous Coward]

when the abuse desk folks return (missing word)

Didn't we see this story before?

[dougmc]

I could have sworn that I read a similar story somewhere a month or two ago ...

In that case, people were writing down the number of a card still on the shelf, or taking pictures of the bar code or something, and then noting what the sequence is (they are in order, after all) and then going home, and using the 1-800 number to see how much money was on the card to see when it was sold.

Once they found a number with money on it, they'd modify a card that they had (printing bar codes and reprogramming magnetic strips is easy) to have that number, and go and spend somebody else's money. Easy.

Seems easy enough to track, as 1-800 numbers include caller ID type info, so just see what number was called to check the balance of the card before it was depleted of funds, and if the same number shows up a few times, call the police ...

To make matters worse, the fine print basically said that this sort of loss was the customer's problem, not the retailer's. So the retailer was refusing to pay people for the lost money ...

In any event, giving a gift card sucks, even without this scam. It has *all* the tackiness of giving cash, but with the additional tackiness of telling you where you can spend this money. If you're going to buy me a present, buy me a present. If you want to give me cash, I certainly like cash. But don't spend cash on a gift card ... either use it to buy me something, or just give me the cash.

And if this does happen to you, scream bloody murder. Do not accept anything less than all the lost money, even if the fine print says that it's not their responsiblity. Call the local media if you have to. Make a scene in the store. Call the corporate office if you have to ... you'll probably eventually get your money.

Re:Didn't we see this story before?

[fermion]

I can't believe that it took so many replies for someone to post the probable hack. This is a classic case of Schneier 100 foot pole. It is not neccesary to be an uberhacker and break into walmarts database. It is not even neccesary to work in the data center. All that one needs to do is hang out at a store, write down or memerize the series of numbers on the walmart card, and wait for someone to buy one. Then pick up that technological marval called the telephone, give the numbers to an accomplice, who gasp, could be thousands of miles away, the information is transferred nearly instananously, and, viola, the crime is set.

If you want to get more complex, one of the working drones could be paid $100 to scan or copy all the cards in the store. Or a checker could be in on the deal. Still, the tech neccesary would be so 1950's, not 2000.

Re:Didn't we see this story before?

[DavidTC]

There's an easier way to trace them: Figure out who's asking for balances on unsold cards. Yes, once might be a mistake, but if someone calls in and asks for the balance on ten different cards, and seven of them haven't been sold yet, something is seriously wrong.

Re:Didn't we see this story before?

[tweek]

The real problem is that people think giving cash is tacky.

Thereis nothing tackier than giving someone something they didn't want in my mind.

I just got married and we got SEVERAL hundreds of dollars in Target gift cards. We had the wedding out of state so we really wanted to get cash or gift cards since they both travel so well.

In our case, we actually registered for VERY little because we already HAD most of the things a new couple needs. We're both 30. We already have a house and everything that a new home needs. We really didn't need much of anything else. Cash would have been nice because we could put it into savings or maybe pay a house payment with it.

As people wait later in life to get married, many of them already have the typical things that people used to get as wedding gifts (crock pot, pyrex, dishes) and cash is really the best option. With the cash that we got, we were able to pay for everything on our honeymoon that wasn't already paid for in advance. We don't carry a balance on our credit cards so that was nice.

Interesting

[Pan T. Hose]

I don't know about where you're from but here if we don't know what to buy someone we buy them gift vouchers.

That's interesting. When I don't know what to buy, I give cash. Seriously, what is so wrong with cash these days? Is it this great disadvantage that you can use it in any little store you want? I would really like to know.

Where it happens?

[phorm]

The question I have is: if they are nabbing data from somewhere between the register and elsewhere in the network, what's preventing them from nabbing Credit Card or Debit information.

Why? Why? WHY, I ASK?!

[HarveyBirdman]

If you are going to hack gift cards, why, for the love of baby Jesus, would you target Wal-Mart??? Now hack me up some Best Buy or Good Guys or Circuit City cards, and now we're talking.

Re:Why? Why? WHY, I ASK?!

[bluGill]

Does it really matter? If I could get all my wal-mart purchases for free it would save me some money. More than you might think because eventually I need new shoes, and suddenly I'd be buying them at wal-mart. (Assuming they have some that fit) Sure they might only last a few months, but for the price (nothing) I can buy many pairs of shoes[1].

Apply this to everything else wal-mart carries that I could get the same thing elsewhere. That leaves a lot of extra money left over for things that I can't get at wal-mart. With a garrage sale every few months I could buy things just to sell and make money.

Mind this is unethical so I wouldn't do it. I can think of plenty of things I'd buy if I was the type to do this.

[1]there is a good joke that fits here but I'm not gonna try to spell the names...

Possible defense

[jridley]

If the card gets used the same day as issued, or more than 250 (pick a number) miles away, ask for and record picture ID.

This should pretty quickly turn up the culprits.

Re:Possible defense

[base3]

Yup, I know that if I want to give my little nephew Bobby a gift card, I want to be sure there's a good chance of him being hassled for ID. I don't know why idiots buy these things--why don't they just give cash or gift cheques. Now if the store gave a discount for purchasing them, that'd be another thing entirely, but otherwise, it's an interest-free (and oftentimes permanent, I reckon) loan to the retailer. And with a gift card, unlike an old-fashioned gift certificate, it's the holder's word against the merchant's as to the value stored on the card.

Re:Possible defense

[jridley]

As Dilbert's mom said, Gift Certificates: all the (lack of) thought of cash, but not as good.

Give me cash any day.

As was stated in another gift card story before, you're not just giving the retailer an interest-free loan; 12% of the value of gift cards are NEVER REDEEMED.

That's a good point...

[Phil John]

...though I expect it has something to do with some people feeling vulgar about giving money...that's just how some people think. They probably think that by giving a card for a certain type of store they are at least putting some tought into the gift. It would probably make a good subject for a psych essay..."The Psychology of gift giving...money or vouchers?" ;o)

Re:That's a good point...

[DavidTC]

So, basically, they're spending their brainpower and time to think of a way to limit what I can do with their gift?

Fucktards.

Gift cards are just stupid, period.

Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Carol Kent's husband named Clark? Perhaps Superman did it!

Re:Owned!

[Noose For A Neck]

Have you ever actually been to a Walmart?

Absolute fucking bottom of the gene pool.

Re:A emperical study

[Anonymous Coward]

Kathleen,

I'm having trouble seeing your site in Lynx. All I get is an ASCII art goatse guy. Am I missing anything?

Re:Owned!

[jschottm]

Not that this will change where you shop, but the argument against Walmart isn't just that they put destroy other businesses that sell things, but that its overall effect on the businesses that it buys from and the government.

Walmart is notorius for squeezing every last panny out of the companies they buy goods from. While in the strictest economic sense, this is a great idea for Walmart, it is decimating other companies that pay a living wage to their employees, fueling outsourcing and bankrupsy in this country. I live within a two hour drive of towns with 20+% unemployment because the textile industry has been destroyed by foreign imports. No matter how libertarian/randian you may be, that kind of situation is very dangerous, because large numbers of unemployed (and unemployable) people leads to high crime and even civil rebellion.

Walmart also shifts expenses to the taxpayers. See a biased source and a collection of less biases sources.

If I lived out in the middle of nowhere, I'd prolly shop at Walmart, just because it would be the only option. I'm lucky to have a decent amount of money and to be surrounded by choices, and deal with small retailers and restuarants as much as possible rather than feeding the large corporate machines. It's not just feeling smarmy and alternative, it's good economic sense to make sure that money is circulated into your local economy. Absolutely pure capitalism is great only for big businesses - it's horrible for the inviduals.

Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[SnprBoB86]

The guy who thought up gift cards/certificates was an evil genious. At what point does someone as a business person say "maybe people are willing to exchange their real money for store credit so that they have a non-cash gift to give?" I can't imagin thinking "I want my money to be acceptable at less places for the sake of forcing a friend or family member to buy something they don't want or need".

I'm a fan of capitalism, so I don't want them to ban gift cards, but I really hate them. Damn you, you evil genious!

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[gl4ss]

that's straight from the dilbert cartoon series episode(where dilbert goes to mall and finds his father at the all-you-can-eat).

Though, in some marginal situations you might want to limit what the receiver of your money gift can buy(but doesn't walmart sell just about everything?) without hassle of exchanging the card with someone for cash.

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[DavidTC]

Yeah, limiting what people can do sometimes makes sense. For example, if I was constantly hassled by beggers, I might want to have some five dollar Burger King gift certificates or whatever in my wallet.

But a Walmart gift card makes no sense at all. Don't even try to tell me how it shows thought went into the gift...who, exactly, doesn't need something they could get from Walmart every week?

I mean, if someone rents a movie every week from Blockbuster, a Blockbuster gift certicate would show thought. But everyone buys Mountain Dew or cough medicine or a pillow or a tent or a gun or a ottoman or an 12-volt inverter or one of those balls that make the static lightning dance when you touch them or...

I mean, seriously, people. A Walmart gift card shows you put no thought into it at all, because everyone can use it. And if you're giving a gift that anyone could use, you might as well give cash.

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[DNS-and-BIND]

They're great to give away as prizes. Lots of states have laws regarding cash. If you were having a raffle for cash, it would be gambling, but as long as you give away those walmarts, it's OK.

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[geminidomino]

or one of those balls that make the static lightning dance when you touch them

I've wanted one of those since I was a 2-foot-tall geeklet. Finally got one this week to decorate my new living quarters. Stare at it for hours...

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[dasmegabyte]

Actually, the thinking probably went like this: if I buy my picky friend a gift from BigStore, he will thank me and then return it for store credit which he will use to buy something he likes from BigStore. To save him and the returns department a big hassle, I will instead buy him a small plastic card charged with the cost of the gift I'd like to give him. This is superior to cash, as it MUST be used to buy something he will enjoy rather than something he needs but doesn't like, such as gasoline or a bus pass.

Incidentally, my wife just gave my picky brother in law a gas card and a bus pass for his birthday, because he always gripes it is too expensive to come visit.

Re:Gift Cards are Evil Genious

[DavidTC]

I know what you mean. I recently got a lava lamp, and it rocks.

Store Cameras

[nurb432]

Now that walmart can track purchases to the faces on store cameras, how long before these people get caught?

Picture ID

[Anonymous Coward]

I would imagine that the fastest, cheapest thing for them to do is start taking photos when someone redeems a gift card. The database would register the photo with the card, and you could track it back. At some point in the near future, companies are going to start using biometrics for purchases, anyways. The credit card companies will just use that information to increase their profits, and people won't give a shit if their fingerprints are recorded.

Which leaves Walmart one step ahead when the whole biometric game starts. It's just in their own best interest to be ahead of the game, and this is one thing they could start a "pilot" program with.

But they'll need super-encryption to keep the database secure, and wh00t on the Federal Governement for not allowing that. Rather than actually shut down the organized crime at the source, legislatures choose re-election over progress.

Meh. Walmart can stand to lose the money. If you're buying gift certificates from Walmart, you deserve to be completely fucked in the shitbox.

Take it like a man.

Re:Why? Why? ANSWER!

[Anonymous Coward]

They deserve it.

the concept was already flawed

[frovingslosh]

It seems to me that anyone who would pay a certain amount of money for a gift card or gift certificate worth the same amount, and give a gift that can only be used at a certain place and might expire, in this way shows even less thought than giving money, and deserves this.

Re:the concept was already flawed

[gregm]

I disagree... I've gotten cards for bookstores and appreciate those more than the actual cash.. I can go to the book store and drop a wad without feeling guilty about spending that money on something like my electric bill. Give me $50 and I'll probably sue that money for groceries or utilities.

Re:the concept was already flawed

[/dev/trash]

Isn't it illegal in most states for a Gift card to expire?

Re:the concept was already flawed

[tweek]

It is NOW.

Of course they have alternate ways of fucking you. After a year, the card could loose 10% of its value each month or some craziness. States are moving to outlaw that as well.

It's really the stores own fault. They want people to think of gift cards as safe cash for gifts so now they're being forced to treat it like cash.

OT: Walm*rt

[cgenman]

I've seen this before. Why do people refer to Walm*rt with a star in the name? Is there a whole chain of Walmerts, Walmurts, and Walmirts? Or is it sometimes spelled Walmrt, Walmmmmmmrt, or Walrt? Does G*d shop there?

What gives?

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[ryanjensen]

It's because they're confused -- "Walm*rt" is actually Wal*Mart. Don't blame them for not actually looking it up themselves, they're just sheep.

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[Justus]

I was wondering that myself, actually.

The best explanation I could come up with was the fact that the Walmart logo has a star in the middle, so perhaps people were mutating "Wal*mart" into "Walm*rt."

I can't honestly think of any other reason for it, it seems a bit stupid to me.

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[Wansu]

Why do people refer to Walm*rt with a star in the name?

Well, they might be using the star as a sphinctor symbol. Yessir. Heck, we used to put 'em by people's names on memos to denote sphinctorhood.

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[plover]

It's a deliberate typo on my part. I do it mostly because I work for a company that doesn't think highly of Walm*rt, nor do I. I know there's a star in the name somewhere, but I deliberately choose to replace the 'A' with the asterisk in the same manner that I might spell f*ck. I think of it in roughly the same manner that the military types deliberately mispronounce the names of their enemies. It's just a little slam against them. (I thought your regexp jokes were pretty funny, btw.)

That said, I feel really bad for them taking a hit from thieves. As much as I don't like W*llyWorld, I really, really don't like thieves; and nobody should ever have to put up with them. Very few things are sweeter than watching videotape of a scumbag thief get nailed because of a system I wrote or helped implement. I'd personally go a long way out of my way to help Walm*rt bust these assclowns. Funny how a shared enemy can get you to set aside your differences like that.

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the sign sometime... (or the web site).

The proper spelling is Wal*Mart (note the location of the star, we did some work for them at the corporate level and they were indeed rather anal about it).

Re:OT: Walm*rt

[jcourcha]

FYI, the star in Wal*Mart was only implemented in 1992, after Sam Walton's death. You'll see a lot of older stores that still use "Wal-Mart".

Re:Owned!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you go ask plover why he spells it that way? He's the one responsible for it.

And if you're wondering why people are considering you anal, why are you defending a business? Most people don't care about for-profit businesses. It's not like the business is there just to help people, they're there to make money. Defending a large, impersonal business means defending something normal people have only apathy or anger towards, so everyone is wondering what your motivation is. We all know walmart isn't unusually humanitarian compared to other businesses. So why do you love them so much?

I work for a "Stored Value" Company

[Anonymous Coward]

I can say that most of these folks have their heads well stuffed up their asses around security.

Most of the technical requirements are made up on the spot by demanding retailers, that do pre-load value on as yet unactivated cards. Activation is often as simple as simply the first swipe(!), and they rely on standard loss prevention and inventory control in the store to prevent theft as any other models for dealing with these types of inventories are completely beyond them.

Of course, we've been all too happy to go along with that, as long as their money is green.

Then of course there are the implementation details on the backend, and we've been losing data continually on the system we have here, due to plenty of design flaws and a serious rush-to-market. It's truly frightening what an afterthought security and data integrity is with these people.

All I can say is don't buy your stored value solution from any company that ends in "stone" or "rock"!

AC so I don't lose my job, bla bla

as a employee of the enemy...

[garfunkalow]

since i do work there, it is interesting how much information they divulge at meetings. I am also allowed into their server rooms, which i don't think i (or anyone without proper securtiy clearance) should be allowed in since there should be some physical security to the boxes. It humors me to see the servers. In a hot room with box fans on the servers to keep them from overheating. VERY INEFFICIENT. There is no A/C in the room where the servers are at my location and sometimes the store pretty much shuts down due to them overheating. Back to the subject, it does sound like an inside job. I don't know what the security is like at the home office (Bentonville , AR) but if it is anything like the store i work it, it is pathetic.

hey there, dupe note

[XO]

I just wanted to add that although I'm not going searching for it, this is like 4-5 year old news here. I know I've read this before, and a long damn time ago, too. Looks like the network news reporters are starting to have to go back to old shit.. cuz all of those events.. are years ago.

Smart Cards

[BlueTooth]

This is an argument for making those cards smart card where the value is _on_ the card. Recovery of the value of a lost card would become impossible, but optional PIN #s could provide theft deterance ("Mr. Jones, the balance remaining on your card is $36.74. If you like you can enter a PIN on the pad in front of you to protect your card from theft").

Mag strip read/writer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of the older walmart cards were coded/written at the POS terminal. This would make the reader/writer a basic COM/plain-text operation.

No way ... not an inside job

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not an inside job - I've read about this before . Walk into a Walmart, get a stack of cards swipe them and record the numbers - the number to scratch is only needed if you want to call the 800 number to find out how much is left.

Put the cards back on the rack - they are the next ones that will be picked up. Remember these are purchased as gifts, they are not used right away.

Create new cards, go in the next day - "Hey freind gave this as a gift, can you tell me how much is on it ?".

No inside job, no hacking, no security leak - just exploiting a weak system.

No right-to-work in Canada, I guess.

[VT_hawkeye]

In the US, we have the concept of right-to-work laws, which prohibit employers from requiring that you join a union as a condition of employment.

Some states have these laws, some states don't. Funny, almost all the growth in auto manufacturing stateside in the past 15 years has occurred in the South, where right-to-work laws are most prevalent.

Re:No right-to-work in Canada, I guess.

[RollingThunder]

Folks aren't seeming to get it.

The EMPLOYER would have been thrilled for those employees to remain non-union.

The UNION came in and strongarmed it into being.

Yup, you're stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Person buys gift card for $x.
2. Unscrupulous other person empties the value from that gift card by purchasing merchandise.
3. Person who legitmately owns gift card attempts to use it, only to find it has already been used up.
4. Person complains to Walmart until they refund the purchase price of the card.

So, $x worth of merchandise has effectively walked out the Walmart door without being paid for, just as if it were shoplifted the old fashioned way. And shoplifting causes stores to lose money.

This Technology

[xombo]

Tons of companies use a similar technology that dials in to activate such gift cards. It would be interesting to tap the lines of these businesses or even their central command centers and decode this information for personal gain. One wouldn't even have to work on the inside.

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[cammoblammo]

Dumb schmuck? Maybe that's their way of contributing to the greater community.

Then again, this is clear proof that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

This is why I shop smart

[randomiam]

and shop S-Mart.

Re:This is why I shop smart

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are your boom-sticks located at?

Re:Owned!

[dickens]

A day's drive ? Wow. I put that much milage on my car before lunch, and I keep it pretty local. When I was commuting I drove over 100 miles a day, and that was a pretty easy commute.

And if you need a microsoft-tax-free 'puter, try tigerdirect or something. At least you know what parts are in it that way.

Holy Holes-In-Your-Security, Batman!

[Thedalek]

It's trivial to get into a UPC office to gain access to these things. Most stores don't check ID's, let alone work orders. Default passwords are commonplace ("ma5t3r", "9052/9052" and the like), and it's very easy to get an employee to Log in for you if needed. WalMart keeps printed logs of just about every transaction that is created, as well as in electronic form.

Am I alone in noticing this as a nightmarishly insecure system? Consider this scenario: Hacker enters the UPC office, then alters the prices on a select number of high cost items to be something negligable, like $0.20 or some such. Hacker's partner buys the items on the list, winds up paying less than $5.00 for over $1,000 worth of merchandise, with everything looking fine from the POV of your non-tech-savvy register worker (or U-Scan system). Hacker gives his partner 4 minutes or so (since the prices only have to be right when they're getting scanned), then switches all the prices back and makes his escape.

That's just scary.

Re:Holy Holes-In-Your-Security, Batman!

[DavidTC]

Um, if you're going to do that, why would you bother with the UPC office? Just buy something cheap, copy the barcode, and stick it on expensive items.

Re:Holy Holes-In-Your-Security, Batman!

[plover]

Because the cashier will scan a TV, while the cash register screen says "ALTOIDS $1.29"

Yes, the bad guys tried this long, long ago.

Re:I think it's an inside job -- confirmed inside

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh! If you read ALL the people modded to -1 for no reason you would LEARN that it WAS.

---
NOTE! not all card scams were by hackers.
FYI : The employee in Michigan cited in the article worked at Pontiac branch off of I-75 and was one of the few black cashiers remaining that had not yet stolen and been fired.
She basically swapped cards with people when they bought cards and was quickly caught.
Also note : the Pontiac branch off of I-75 is the only Walmart in Michigan that has never once made a profit for the year and has been subject to numerous robberies (again by gangs of blacks) rampant shoplifting, and other issues from the rich "diverse" community near Pontiac
a couple SUCCESSFUL robberies of money room got well over 50K BTW.
Pontiac has huge prisons, countless halfway homes, welfare caseload neighborhoods and is as dark as inner city Detroit. Its a hellish place to be near and a stupid place to put a Walmart. Hudsons in downtown Detroit closed years ago citing more shoplifting per day than in sales revenue profit.
Walmart announced they are shutting th Pontiac Walmart down and moving it east three miles towards the whiter neighborhoods near Rochester hills and away from the bus lines, despite putting it closer to two other HIGHLY PROFITABLE Walmarts.

Re:Owned!

[cmacb]

I didn't express myself well. The closest department store other than the Walmarts is a Sears, 30 miles away, but I don't consider that much of an improvement. To really get to "the big city" and some shopping choice is a 3 hour drive even when there is no traffic (which of course only happens at 3 in the morning), about 150 miles I'd say. Yes, I could drive there in the morning, shop for 2 hours and get back before bedtime, but it's not something I'd want to do. My trips to the city will (I just moved here so its all future tense) probably consist of overnight stays to visit friends and do other things. For normal shopping needs the Walmarts are very welcome.

I should also add, that since I live in a "resort" town, there are THOUSANDS of small shops here, and as far as I know, none of them are particularly threatened by the existence of the Walmart. I don't doubt that there are cases of Walmarts having an adverse effect on pre-existing mom-and-pop stores. I just don't think the phenomena is a pandemic as many would suggest.

As to displaced textile workers (for example) let's not confuse cause and effect. The flood of manufactured goods from China, etc. was happening and is happening independently of Walmart. You don't solve an economic imbalance such as that by punishing a single vendor. Trade barriers, import taxes, and all sorts of other things are possible solutions. Boycotting Walmart will just cause those goods to be purchased at other stores and have little or no effect on the overall situation. IMHO.

Fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you need fiber? The data volume could be handled by 10B-T, or 100B-T. This is transaction data, not video data.

Re:Fiber?

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

I don't know either. But I didn't say fiber, he did.

Re:Didn't we see this story before? - inside job

[Fished]

Why do you feel compelled to mention the race of the cashier and the robbers? It's unnecessary, adds nothing to the putative point of your post, and is frankly pretty offensive.

I could show you places where all the thieves are white. Race has nothing to do with it - economics, and who was subject to legally mandated discrimination until 40 years ago has a whole hell of a lot more to do with it. Don't be a jackass.

Vouchers are dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

...think about it...

Its like giving cash, except you've decided where they'll spend their money.

How rude.

Hey billy, you need new "stuff", and I'll help you buy it... as long as its from Wal-Mart. I could see it if Walmart gave you 5-10%, but no. You're just limiting their choice.

Really really dumb and rude.

I tried it! Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried going to the iPod link, but I changed the refererID. Hope that was okay.

All these suggestions are overly complicated....

[dfn_deux]

The mechanics to this scam are ridiculously simple. Many stores have the cards racked like merchandise and they are activated at the register by scanning their barcode and entering the value into a back end database through the POS. All one has to do is go into the store with a small didigtal camera, take pictures of the bar codes on the cards; print up a bunch of stickers, wait a few days for the cards to get sold off the shelf and then use your new stickerized cards to make purchases against the cards that were sold.... TaDa!!!!

Re:Owned!

[MedHead]

Wha? When does debating the benefits of a business mean I "love" it?! People here loathe Wal*Mart. I like Wal*Mart, just like I like its competitiors. It's a store, not a person. Are you against debating when it disagrees with your opinion?

Stunningly stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Your step #4 is a piece of fiction.

Do you have personal experience with getting Walmart to give you money back for used up gift cards? If so, I may as well quit my job now and spend my days recycling Walmart gift cards as you suggest.

Fucktard.

Re:Stunningly stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Your step #4 is a piece of fiction.

Um, no, it's straight from the article.

Do you have personal experience with getting Walmart to give you money back for used up gift cards?

No. Again, I actually READ THE ARTICLE. Assuming you CAN read, I'll quote the relevant parts:

"You think it's safe to give someone a gift card!" said Tami Kegley, who contacted us after she and her church group chipped in for a $150 gift card at a Wal-Mart in Bonney Lake. Tami had put the purchase on her credit card.

The shopping card, as Wal-Mart calls it, was a gift for a colleague.

"She loaded up her cart and took it up there and they said there was nothing on the card," she said.

In Tami's case, her receipt shows the $150.00 card was activated at 11:32 in the morning, then cashed out three hours later in a another state!

"At a store in California," Tami explained. "He (the Wal-Mart employee) wasn't sure how it was being done, but he told me it had happened several times through that same store in California."

Wal-Mart acknowledges the scam, but for security reasons will not discuss details.

A corporate spokesman says the company, " is working with law enforcement at the highest levels possible, to rectify the problem and catch the people responsible."

As for making good on the stolen money?

"Well initially he told me that he really couldn't do anything for me," Tami Kegley says of the Wal-Mart employee she dealt with. "He said it was a corporate issue."

But Tami persisted, and got finally got the $150.00.

So if anyone's the fucktard, it would have to be you.

Good thing....

[deadgoon42]

Good thing I don't shop at Wal-Mart. walmartwatch.org

Walmart compromised

[wobblie]

Good. Why is everyone acting like this is a bad thing?

MetroCard - the paranoid solution

[Animats]

The New York City subway value card system, MetroCard, has much greater security. NYC knew they had to come up with something that really was secure. They were losing $20,000,000 a year on turnstile fraud before they switched over.

MetroCard stores the data both on the card and in a database. They're crosschecked every time a card is used. The data on the card is encrypted, of course. Cards are checked by the station computer and by a central database. Cards are read both at entry and exit from the subway, and if entries and exits don't match, it's noticed. There are protections against fraud by insiders. This system was intended to be Mafia-proof.

So far, so good. No big frauds so far.

Re:MetroCard - the paranoid solution

[xenoc_1]

Since when does the NYCTA check Metrocards at exit? There are plenty of readers for the customers to check their cards if they want. But NYC doesn't have an "exit fare" system where you have to scan your card to leave the system.

Re:MetroCard - the paranoid solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that stop you from jumping over the turnstiles?

Re:MetroCard - the paranoid solution

[dasmegabyte]

Doesn't seem to stop any of the kids who do it all day. Rarely do I see older people doing it; in fact, I have seen people begging for sub pass money right by the dispensers. This might be the increased police presence, though.

Re:MetroCard - the paranoid solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, except for the fraud committed by the MTA itself, ie. raising the rate from $1.50 to $2.00 bassed on a cooked set of books. It's amazing to me how they've gotten away with this.

Re:Owned!

[Anonymous Coward]

Damned Wal*Mart's efficiency at selling goods I want!

We must form a dog-sled workers union, and force corporations to use it to deliver goods immediately!

Re:Picture ID

[CaptainTux]

Photo's wouldn't work because WM gift cards can also be used online.

the old standard grift card suck

[Anonymous Coward]

> I did read the article. I was making the case
> that WalMart could pay out twice and still be
> well ahead.

Oh, criminals would love that... now instead of making $25 off of a $25 gift card they could then make $50 or $75 or $100. I don't think you really understand the problem, do you?

> For one, the customer CANNOT get cash from the
> card.

Jesus... this is such a trivial problem for the average person with even a little stree smarts. Let's count the ways you can get cash with a gift card:

1 - buy a money order
2 - buy something and then return the item
3 - sell the gift card
4 - etc.

> I was part of a small team which created the
> first such card - Blockbusters - and am still >
> amazed at how fast they've proliferated.

I seriously doubt that you were the first person to implement gift cards (I remember using them at Sears during the 70s, well before Blockbusters even existed). Regardless, we all love you for innovating convience (removing the need to actually think about what to get someone for a gift) and generally making life better (I hope *YOU* get stuck with a bum gift card sometime).

> The cards never actually "store" their value,
> all the value is located only in the database
> [...]
> This has to be someone hacking from the inside
> of Walm*rt.

Well, you got the first part right. Too bad you then leapted to a conclusion. All that is required is buying the first and last card off of every gift card display within the store. Then wait for people to pickup the interveening card numbers. Verify the cards are active and rewrite with that nifty little 3 track HICO/LOCO writer you picked up on ebay. Go to the store and shop till you drop.

If Walmart is stupid enought to make their database of activated cards available via internet or telephone, then they deserve to have thier little gift card program ass-fscked until it's dead.

> A smart thief would redeem $149 on a $150 card
> to keep the card with the $1 balance on it in
> his pocket.

How the fsck would that be smart? Birthday boy Joey Jr. is still going to try to buy $100+ worth birthday loot. He's going to get flagged at the cash register and Walmart security is going to give him a $150 voucher for giving the card back to Walmart (after Aunt Mae poney's up the reciept). Next time the hacked card comes through the line, Walmart has the original and the guy in posession is fscked.... let me guess, you're not a criminal, are you?

> And with the high probability of an inside job,

You're not actually involved in security, are you? If so, you need to change professions before you get someone innocent put in jail. Sometimes I get the feeling that the old "insiders are the greatest threat" mantra exists simply because that's whey the fishing is easy and the fruit is the lowest hanging for the security industry.

> You don't need access to WAP, or even the
> central database to pull this off.

Bingo! Finally someone gets it right!

> These guys may get away with this for awhile,
> but most Retailers get fraud reports which they
> can use to analyse this kind of thing. Once they
> figure out the pattern, they can wait for the
> criminal(s) to make a mistake.

Actually, it's pretty easy to "get away with" indefinetly. You just have to know how to run the interogation. Just tell them that you brought the card, at a discount, off of someone just exiting Walmart who said they had changed their mind about using the card as a gift. If they insist that you help them, ask for a lawyer. Beyond that, you can always go into the local hiring halls for day laborors and sell the cards for 50c on the $ and not have to risk jack.

> Is there a geographical correspondence to where
> these cards are emptied?

No, that's the beauty of gift cards.... they fit nicely into

You Americans are so damned litigious ;-)

[JurgenThor]

Give me $50 and I'll probably sue that money for groceries or utilities.

Now you're even suing money?

Cards Replaced

[Nazmun]

I work for sams club and we have the same giftcard as walmart (even the card says walmart+sams club on it). I was asked to change all the gift cards in the store about two days ago.

Gift Cards are a dumb idea

[RussP]

I always wondered why people give gift cards. Why not just give someone the money and let them decide where to spend it. Giving a gift card is equivalent to giving cash and then telling the recipient where they must spend it. How is that better than the cash? Am I missing something here?

Re:Gift Cards are a dumb idea

[DNS-and-BIND]

If I gave my little brother cash for his birthday, he'd spend it on drugs. If I give him a gift card for somewhere, he has to buy whatever the store sells.

Re:Gift Cards are a dumb idea

[Anonymous Coward]

...and buy what? Glue?

There's probably something more than a little fscked up with your family if you can't trust your brother.

Suggest you slurge and spend the money on some good therapy...

Re:Gift Cards are a dumb idea

[dasmegabyte]

OK, better example. I want to buy my brother a CD, but you can't return CDs here and if he doesn't like it, or already has it, I'm out the money. If I give him cash, he won't use it to buy a CD, he'll blow it on fast food and crap like that. I give him gift cards because he simply isn't very good with money but definitely wants CDs.

That doesn't surprise me.

[Ayanami Rei]

Best Buy and Home Depot didn't even bother encrypting theirs some time ago. I imagine nowadays store managers aren't so technically inept to allow that to happen now, but then, we are talking about Walmart...

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[UranusReallyHertz]

Yeah, because Wall-mart became the biggest company in the world by being ignorant about technology. Do some reading. A lot of WM success is due to brilliant use of IT to improve the efficiancy of there logistics.

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[Anonymous Coward]

My local walmart doesn't have WEP enabled.

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[Mycroft_VIII]

Brilliant?!? Clever and centralized I'll give you, but anyplace that has ONE central controll center that can shut off LIGHTS from states away, and does so with NO local overide isn't exactly brilliant.
I know of one sam's club where for a week straight the parking lot lights would shut down an hour before the place closed for bussiness. The sprinklers would come on every three days at 4 pm, even during a a downpour.
Maybe the people who put in the tech are smart, but the people running the systems aren't.
There are other anectedotes I could tell, but you get the idea. Everything is run from Bentonvill Arkansas, and there are no local overides unless mandated by law, NOT EVEN for management.

Mycroft

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[Baricom]

This fascinates me. Perhaps you could provide a link?

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[UranusReallyHertz]

Wow, didn't know that at all. That is really Orwellian. I'd love to learn more and satisfy my inherent skepticism. Could you provide any links?

Re:That doesn't surprise me.

[Mycroft_VIII]

This was from working at a sams club for a couple of months. I saw these things happen.
They can even read the breakage monitors for the glass doors on the freezer goods from bentonvill.
They started with the JIT ordering/shipping process and kept expanding it to everything from what I was told.
The first time I saw the parking lot lights out before close the manager I worked under told me all the cloudy days had caused them to come on early and when the automated controlls in bentonvill had a usage 'budget' it was adjusting for to limit electricity costs and it would take a while to fix the 'problem' because they couldn't force them to turn back on locally.
I was told by a different manager that the schedule for the sprinklers was downloaded from bentonvill and would run no matter what for specific times and durations.
All this to controll costs and micromanage expenses to maximize profit according to 'plan'.
As far as links you are welcom to look, but somehow I doubt Wallmart posts thier operational details online anywhere.

Mycroft

"Scheduled Power Outage"

[Ayanami Rei]

At Target, the employees call that a "Code Blue".
I'll leave it up to you to figure out what a "Code Yellow" is.

Little problem...

[Ayanami Rei]

Even if the gift cards are sequentially numbered, each card has a random PIN assigned to it you can only read if you scratch off the back of the card.

Some cashiers would probably balk at activating a card that is already scratched off.

But you never know.

What's nice is you can use the card numbers you've lifted at WalMart.com. I'd use it to purchase downloadable things, not things that need to be shipped, for obvious reasons.

It's such an issue it's a "joke".

[Ayanami Rei]

Try taking a product to the register with a cashier you're halfway familiar with. Then suggest the product is X dollars at the shelf. Balk if they even think about verifying it. About 50% of the time, they give it to you without checking. If you're really chummy with said register jockey they'll get the joke and play along.
It's always worth a shot.

Re:It's such an issue it's a "joke".

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've ever worked at wal-mart which I hope you havent, but I am right now. You'll know that a customer any and almost all will come through look at something and then put it back in the wrong spot or just leave it on the floor. What you're saying is the next person that comes through should get that missplaced item for the price where the dumb customer put it back in the wrong spot. Even though the label is clearly marked with the description of the item that's supposed to be there? I don't think that's right. if it's a sale sign that's fine, but missplaced items are a different story and are about 99% of the time caused by other consumers, not the workstaff.

SMART system, switches, VLANs, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

The SMART systems come in two varieties; the NCR version runs AIX and the HP version runs HP-UX.

The SmartSystem root passwords are always some lame number-substituted common word like G3or6e or Fr3e6ird, they're always the same at every store in the country (though they change every couple weeks) and they give everyone at the ISD the root password.

Regarding switches:
Garden Center is GDC. Receiving is RCV. You forgot Tire & Lube Express, which is TLE.

Regarding VLANs:
The new wireless network that's been rolled out to some stores (the one that uses Symbol access points and the new Symbol CSM handhelds) has two VLANs to itself 140 and 40. The access points are on VLAN 140, and nothing else is on that VLAN except for the AirBeamSafe units. The AirBeamSafe units have two ports, one to VLAN 140 and one to VLAN 40. There's also a port configured on UPC-1 and UPC-2 to VLAN 40 that's connected to the store's routers; and then the router connects VLAN 40 (and, indirectly, VLAN 140 through the ABS) to the rest of the network.

If anybody wants to try to accomplish anything by going through their wireless network, go ahead, but based on my knowledge of how the wireless network is connected to the rest, it's not going to be simple.

(Posing anonymously even though I don't have that job anymore)

Store is too big.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal-Mart's maximum allowed length for twisted-pair cable runs is 325 feet, following the ceiling beams (i.e. no going diagonally). Some switches are close enough, some aren't. All switches are connected via fiber at 100mbit (switches will possibly be upgrade to gigabit in the future), even the switches that are in the same room.

Re:Store is too big.

[hab136]

Wal-Mart's maximum allowed length for twisted-pair cable runs is 325 feet, following the ceiling beams (i.e. no going diagonally). Some switches are close enough, some aren't. All switches are connected via fiber at 100mbit (switches will possibly be upgrade to gigabit in the future), even the switches that are in the same room.

It's not Wal-Mart's maximum.. it's copper ethernet's maximum. http://www.duxcw.com/faq/network/cablng.htm

Re:All these suggestions are overly complicated...

[BlacKat]

Why even take pictures?

Just write down the barcode number and print them off yourself with any standard barcode printing software. :)

2600

[kwoff]

This was probably reported in 2600, so catching the criminals should be easy.

Re:in case it gets slashdotted

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, it's troll-bait because the guy replaced "church group" with "transexual group" and a few other things. Probably just someone, like me, who has a bug up their ass when it comes to WalMart and wanted to make fun of WalMart and their customers. Rather than get nailed with the "funny" karma double-whammy (no + for funny, but negatives still count), he posted as AC.

The problem and the solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem: Outsourcing call center jobs, and the type of information those jobs entail, to other countries has opened a hyper conduit of fraud. Take all these relay (free Internet communications for the deaf) fraud calls. How are these people acquiring seemingly infinite amounts of credit card numbers (exp date), names, ssn, etc? Because everyone you call for any kind of tech support now talks like the guy in the Simpson s who runs the convenience store. They all ask you for the same information. I'm afraid I will never purchaise a computer from some company who outsources my information to another country. This is crazy.

Solution: We're fucked. They make more money dealing with finance charges and late fees and fucking your credit in the ass than anything else (even if it is just fraud it's such a clusterfuck you have to go through). I have good credit and have not been fucked by these fraudulent people, but I know people who have. It really robs the entire world. It's' like dumping nuclear waste into the ocean or Bonjovi's reign over the ozone.

Re:The problem and the solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

India is actually quite a cross-roads. There are more than your fair share of russians, militant muslums, chinese gangs and asorted rift raft that converge in India (why? Well because more than anywhere else *EVERYTHING* is for sale in India). Hell, for the right amount of money, I can have an Indian beaurcrat declair you dead (you HB1 visa holders would be well advised to pursue citizen ship if *your* database ever makes it into an Indian outsourcing firm).

I have been predicting for quite some time, the decline and fall of the american middle class with repsect to where their good credit intersets with the mass exportation of data/service that outsourcing represents. One thing to remember folks, when the Wan decouples from the US$ because it's no longer profitable to sell to Americans and Europe and Asia once again become Tigers, life is going to absolutely suck for anyone with a SSN. Cheap laber jumping the fence and HB1 visa holders are going to only make the situation worse... Quite possibly the only folks left with decent jobs will be those holding security clearances.

As for me, I maintain invulnerability to identity theives by cultivating an extremely shitty credit rating (nobody will extend *ANY* credit due to several deliberate four and five figure write offs).

It's going to be an intersting future and I hope everyone who's scratching their heads now will understand my clarity when it become apparent to them, 1st hand, that the system really doesn't give a fsck about them or their good credit rating.

Mountain out of a Molehill

[ajs318]

"Old-fashioned" gift vouchers worked. You know ..... a little slip of paper with some fancy printing, like a special banknote only redeemable in certain stores, which you buy at the till and place in a birthday card. What was ever wrong with them anyway?

Re:Mountain out of a Molehill

[tweek]

Cost, volume and up until now fraud.

Most of these specialized gift cards are handled by seperate companies. They print and brand the cards for the retailers. They're reusable so Aunt Suzie could give Timmy a gift card and load money on to it each year without having to buy a new one. They work great for parents too. The gift card and private label card market are pretty much merged now.

They're also much more durable.

I just got married (yeah me!). Since the wedding was out of state, we got what we wanted (i.e. cash, checks and gift cards for the stores we registered at..Target, JC Penny, Home Depot). I think we literally saw every permutation of gift card that target had. If we didn't use up all of a card, the store left the remaining funds on it and didn't give us cash back. It kind of makes you beholden to the store.

Used to be you could go in with a $100 gift check to a store, buy a pack of gum or some underwear and get the remainder in cash. Then you could go spend the rest elsewhere.

Gift checks were valid as soon as they were printed. Fake a cashiers signature and off you go.

They're also cheaper because one gift card can hold any monetary amount that you can imagine. I think we got one card that was for $35. Used to be you could only get $10,$25,$50 and $100 denominations.

In many ways, the gift cards actually make more sense for the retailer and more money. Gift checks would just expire after a certain time period. With gift cards, the card may never expire but they can do neat things like charge interest on the card after a year. Walmart cards do this I think. After a year, you loose so much of the value of the card each month until it's all gone.

The only reason we weren't bummed about getting gift cards is that we knew we would spend them right away and they wouldn't sit in a drawer for a year.

Re:Mountain out of a Molehill

[ajs318]

Around here, if you buy items to a lower value than the gift voucher, you get as much of your change as fits the available denominations in gift vouchers. Since the smallest unit is usually £1, that means that you will never be able to exchange more than 99p of gift voucher for cash. If you want to give someone an odd amount such as £35, you just give them one each of £20, £10 and £5, in the same card. Also, there is no expiry date on gift vouchers -- that would actually be illegal, since it would constitute a form of protection racket.

There isn't a lot of fraud you can do either. Gift vouchers are serialised, and someone somewhere is keeping track of which serial number was issued to which store. They are checked for authenticity by a human being -- generally harder to fool than a machine, because you can know exactly what a machine is looking for. Where there have been forgeries, the stores have known pretty well what they were up against. A small-time forger is probably going to make less of a dent in the finances than cumulative rounding error -- and a big-time forger will have much drier lentils to soak.

Sure there's a cost incurred in printing the vouchers, and distributing them securely, but no more the store can afford to swallow -- otherwise they wouldn't issue vouchers in the first place. Setting up the infrastructure for reusable gift cards also has its own costs. It's too much like tech for tech's sake.

Re:Owned!

[Warped-Reality]

I work for wal-mart, $9 an hour, which isn't a whole lot, but it's more than any grocery store and most retailers in the area are paying...

In fact, most of the Giants/Wies' around here start you off at between $6.00 and $6.50 - Walmart will start you between $7 and $8.

Yeah, it's not a lot of money, but people never bitch about the stores that are paying less....

Developed a heuristic for this years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Walmarts have the camera "bubbles" suspended from the ceiling struts by a pole. Ever notice how some of the camera bubble suspension poles have a wire running into the top... and that others do not?

Never proven the theory, but I have unsettled employees within earshot at times by walking around the store with friends pointing at the bubbles and saying "real one", or "decoy", as the case indicated.

Re:Owned!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal*Mart doesn't sell anything that I can't get elsewhere for just about as cheap.

The problem is not that their efficient, it's their size. When a company gets as large as Wal*Mart, they gain an unreal amount of power over their suppliers. (Hmmm, kinda like how MS wasn't that bad of a company until they got big and started leveraging one part of their business to bully into another sector.)

Remember the phrase, "power corrupts..."?

Too much power, like Wal*mart has right now, allows them to get away with abuses that they would not be able to get away with when they were smaller.

(Personally, I've only spent $50 at Wal*mart in the past two years. I've seen what they do to a community, when they kill off all the local mom-n-pop stores and then offer low-wage jobs where they treat you like a wage slave. I *laugh* at the commercial with the black mother who goes on and on about how great the new Wal-mart in their area is.)

Cannot find Wal-Mart?

[dasmegabyte]

Try looking out your window. Chances are they're building one next door.

The union can't set conditions for employment...

[VT_hawkeye]

...unless the employer agrees to implement them.

Right-to-work laws make it illegal for the employer to implement such a condition, no matter what the union wants.