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20,000 Zombie PCs -- $3000

Saint Aardvark writes "From F-Secure blog comes these links to two USA Today articles on spamming. The first gives an example of how a grandmother ended up becoming a security expert after Comcast cut her connection for spamming. The second quotes spammers advertising networks of Zombie PCs for sale. The price? $3000 for 20,000 machines."

130 of 423 comments (clear)

  1. So, for 3 Grand... by GTRacer · · Score: 5, Funny
    ...Can I get folding@home running on those 20 thousand boxes?

    GTRacer
    - Things to do

    --
    Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
    1. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 5, Funny
      No - but you can spam a lot of people and ask them if they would like to run folding@home.

      Probably a lot of them would, after all look how many people clicked on something to become a zombie in the first place...

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    2. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Probably. If you're willing to pay the same price as the spammers.

      Incidentally, I used ShareSniffer, back in it's day, to find unprotected shares and install the distributed.net client on about 120 machines. Mean thing to do, I know, but what the heck. At least it wasn't for monetary gain.

    3. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by xmas2003 · · Score: 5, Funny
      I bet I get modd'ed down into oblivion, but rather than send Email to 20,000 people about my folding@home team, would it be OK if I posted it here for 20,000 Slashdotters to consider joining?!? ;-)

      BTW, I'm really surprised that the 20,000 PC's are "only" $3,000 - seems like you could have 'em do clicks on Google Ads or other affliiate type stuff and make a lot more than that ... assuming you don't get caught.

      --
      Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
    4. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by ImaLamer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not to nitpick...

      But this is against the distributed.net's policy, and they do pay for a winner.

      But really, it wouldn't do anything noticable to the user since it works during "idle" times only.

      I've always kept dnet up when doing CPU intensive work, it never interferes.

    5. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by Duncan3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      *laughs*

      Um, no, we really wouldn't appreciate you doing that with our software. And it is against our terms of use. http://vsp27.stanford.edu/license.txt

      But back in my d.net days, we estimated that about 1/3 to 1/2 of all installs were zombies or forgotten. The original 5 proxies (hardcoded IP's, including my old dorm IP) probably still get pounded on after all these years.

      --
      - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
    6. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by MightyPez · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And I had no clue that in a time when a majority of middle aged and elderly people using PC's with just enough knowledge to turn them on, an elitist asshole could belittle someone who took time out of their life to learn nuances of security on the internet.

    7. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by Chazmati · · Score: 4, Insightful

      She's probably an expert within her peer group. It's all relative, isn't it? :)

    8. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by niteice · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Judging from the amount of people that don't install antivirus and don't turn on auto windows updates, she does indeed seem like a security expert.

      --
      ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
    9. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by TykeClone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Would that be for one spam run or for "ownership" as long as they're available? If it's just for one run, that's pretty good money as you can sell the product over and over again.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    10. Re:So, for 3 Grand... by abirdman · · Score: 5, Insightful
      But don't you see? It doesn't require a "security expert" to keep a Windows machine clean and virus-free. All it requires is a little software and a clue. People don't purposely install software that will turn their computers into zombies. They do it because they don't understand that opening an email with that "free screensaver" or "hot picture" will infect their machine (and they're right, it shouldn't be that way!). They don't realize that random popups offering Viagra aren't built into the OS and normal, and that they're different from the random popups that Microsoft Update sends. I know and have observed several people (not stupid!) who just routinely close any popup window, don't read any of them, and assume everything is normal.

      If grandma figures that all out, and especially if she tells all her friends, then I have no problem with her calling herself an expert. Don't worry, no prospective employer is going to hire her over someone who knows something, unless maybe she's hired to train end-users in the humdrum tasks of everyday workstation security. Imagine, if you will, a Beowulf Cluster of "grannies-who-get-it" showing everyone they know the nuts and bolts of how not to infect their computers! How to manage Microsoft update, how to d/l, install and run SpyBot S&D, a virus scanner, a spam filter program like POPFile, and maybe even a more secure browser (read, one that doesn't automatically install and run whatever random piece of code it finds on the net). They would do more for overall Internet security than a batallion of security experts preaching arcane router strategies to tired and jaded Network Admins. There would still be occasional viruses, worms, and exploits, but those could be left to the experts. I see no reason to be cynical about this.

      /END OF RANT

      --
      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
  2. Rhetorical question: by haxor.dk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How many % are running Microsoft Windows ?

    Zombie Macs and Zombie Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, it would seem.

    1. Re:Rhetorical question: by brilinux · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Zombie Macs and Zombie Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, it would seem.

      Yeah, but Macs and Linux boxes are also not very common anyway. It may be much easier to use Windows boxen as Zombie boxes, but percentage wise, if every Linux and Mac desktop were a zombie box, they would still be a smaller percentage. Perhaps it would be better to figure out what percentage of desktops running each individual OS were zombie boxes, this would probably still be much lower for MAC OSX and Linux. FreeBSD etc than windows.

    2. Re:Rhetorical question: by haxor.dk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your argument is reasonable, but alas invalid. Last Google % for Macs was, inscientific as some may label it, 3% (Linux was 1% IIRC?). Yet, I'd challenge you to find me just a handful of rooted Macs or Linux boxen. And in case you should manage to, it would still be a much lower proportion to the proportion of Macs and Linux machines comared to WinTel boxen.

    3. Re:Rhetorical question: by thedillybar · · Score: 2, Insightful
      >How many % are running Microsoft Windows ?

      How many % of all end-user machines are running Microsoft Windows?

      >Zombie Macs and Zombie Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, it would seem.

      In the world of common users, Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, too. Macs are almost as common as snowcones in Florida...not quite.

    4. Re:Rhetorical question: by haxor.dk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ">How many % are running Microsoft Windows ?

      How many % of all end-user machines are running Microsoft Windows?"

      Significantly less than the % af rooted Win boxes.

      ">Zombie Macs and Zombie Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, it would seem.

      In the world of common users, Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, too. Macs are almost as common as snowcones in Florida...not quite."

      Nonsense.

      Last Google Zeitgeist (before it was taken offline) was 4% Macs (sorry not 3% as ai stated earlier) and 1% Linux. As such, I'd say they are a bit more prevalent than anything cold in hell.

    5. Re:Rhetorical question: by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Just you wait! Once the number of Magic Box users with Linux rises above a threshold, it'll happen. You might think that Linux and Macs are more secure by default, but these are users who will open email with attachments, open the zip attachment, type in the password to open the executable in the zip attachment, run the executable. More warnings and barriers won't help.

      These people have The Will To Stupid, and cannot be stopped!

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    6. Re:Rhetorical question: by pyros · · Score: 4, Informative
      You might think that Linux and Macs are more secure by default, but these are users who will open email with attachments, open the zip attachment, type in the password to open the executable in the zip attachment, run the executable. More warnings and barriers won't help.

      But unless they're running with root privileges (which most distributions don't do by default) you can't overwrite system binaries or executables, or run daemons on priviledged ports (like open smtp relays on port 25), etc. I know that the attacker could do things like use nonstandard ports or privilege escalation hacks like buffer overflows, but it's extra work the attacker needs to do, making it a less attractive target (and thus, more secure by default).

    7. Re:Rhetorical question: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I was going to root my GF's box last night..but she gets made when I refer to it as linux.

    8. Re:Rhetorical question: by angst7 · · Score: 2, Funny


      How many % of all end-user machines are running Microsoft Windows?"

      Significantly less than the % af rooted Win boxes.

      There are more rooted Windows boxes than there are Windows boxes?

      Actually that should be read as "The percentage of end-user machines running windows is (significantly) less than the percentage of windows machines that have been compromised (rooted).

      It's possible that that could be true, though not likely, since if 95% of users run windows, its unlikely that more than 95% of those systems have been compromised. It's certainly not possible for it to be a statistically significant number.

      That said, I would just like to point out that this whole thing is rather silly.

      Word.

      --
      StrategyTalk.com, PC Game Forums
    9. Re:Rhetorical question: by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the world of common users, Linux boxes are about as common as snowcones in hell, too. Macs are almost as common as snowcones in Florida...not quite.

      Insightful??? No. Funny??? Yes.....

      Funny thing is that the author seems to say that Macs are close to ubiquitous (snowcones seem to be likely to be common in Florida because they are a form of hot-weather refreshment) but Linux machines are nowhere.

      Worldwide, Linux machines probably marginally beat Macs in the desktop space. Domestically, Macs are a bit ahead, for now....

      In China, OTOH, legal copies of windows are much more rare than FreeBSD desktops in the US!!!

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    10. Re:Rhetorical question: by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the spams outgoing, you dont NEED to run anything on a privileged port, and standard user access will do. So long as the rooted system accepts mail in, even on a non standard port that you can configure your master host to connect to, then it can happily spam everyone else. The mailserver doesnt need to talk FROM port 25.

    11. Re:Rhetorical question: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If a system is "rooted" then they do have root access. Thus the name. And you don't need root to use sendmail which is installed by default on many distributions.

    12. Re:Rhetorical question: by gmuslera · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yes and no. If Linux users grow a lot could rise the number of rooted Linux computers. But the way in will hardly be mail, or at least mail attachments. With linux you don't have a single cpu architecture, a single installable program format (some use deb, others rpm) and not a single set of basic libraries (glib5? 6? qt3? pick a random linux binary and you should probably check dependencies before it could run) and last but not least, reasonable distributions discourage users in a way or another to run as root (i.e. in suse your root desktop if full of exploding bombs as a hint).

      But with a lot of linux users, maybe with some of them don't aplying security fixes and activating services because they are just there could mean that a future remote exploit to a commonly installed service (i.e. ssh, apache) could have some success, and there number of installed system is not a problem, one of the latest worms exploited a vulnerability in a not so common, commercial firewall for windows, and was pretty sucessful.

  3. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new security grandmother overlord. All bow to thee.

    1. Re:Obligatory by Rubberpants.net · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Now you listen here young man! The next time I catch you spoofing e-mail headers I'm not bringing you down milk and cookies!" *whack!*

    2. Re:Obligatory by Mr.+Bad+Example · · Score: 2, Funny

      > I, for one, welcome our new security grandmother overlord. All bow to thee.

      I look forward to laboring in her cookie mines.

  4. Will this give WETA a run for their money? by jaxdahl · · Score: 4, Funny

    I wonder how the processing power would compare to WETA's supercomputer cluster and their pricing. It would be slower to coummunicate data among the computers and ensure data quality, but I wonder how it compares.

    1. Re:Will this give WETA a run for their money? by alienw · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just like a career in robbing banks will compare to medical school as far as potential earnings.

  5. Whose fault? by RollingThunder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Heather Hall can trace the start of her online banking nightmare to the day she received what she thought was a legitimate e-mail request from Bank of America asking her to click a link to a bank Web page. The 27-year-old health services worker typed in her login, password and account number. ...
    Bank of America agreed to reimburse the money stolen from Hall's account, but only after she badgered them. "They wanted me to believe it was my fault," says Hall.

    Yes, it's her fault. She did something foolish.

    1. Re:Whose fault? by Renraku · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Scams are criminal acts. Thus, the money was removed from the bank due to a criminal act. A bank that loses money to a criminal act that refuses to reimburse its customers might well lose its status as a bank. They took from her, without her permission, money from her bank account. Which is stealing, fraud, etc, etc. Maybe it was her fault it got stolen, but the money was stolen, from the bank.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    2. Re:Whose fault? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have you seen these emails? They're damned convincing. Even the site you go to looks like the real thing, and all the links go back to the real thing. If you don't know enough to understand that you should only do business on THE EXACT DOMAIN that you've done business with, there's little you could do to realize that it's not legit.

      Things get even worse when someone registers a domain like "ebay.it" or "citlbank.com". Even many close examinations would fail to note the problem in the URL.

    3. Re:Whose fault? by iCEBaLM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I walk up to you on the street and say "Hey, I'm from Bank of America, I need your bank account information." and then you proceed to give it to me, then it is indeed your fault.

    4. Re:Whose fault? by lpangelrob2 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Foolish, yes, but from a non-nerd point of view, not so obvious. It looks like it comes from the company. Why not provide their login, password and account number?

      Since I haven't sensed that a widespread educational movement is in place to tell users otherwise (besides the occasional article in the newspaper, and I personally believe that doesn't count), can someone else step up to the plate? It sucks to have to repeat the "who's responsibility is it"? thing ad infinitum.

      So here's a story... I have two Macs hooked up at home. Comcast gives you the cable modem and basically just tells you to plug it in. Not surprisingly, if I were to have an old WinXP system that was stuck on dial-up (I can't download 400 MB service packs or security updates), I would be virus infected. Fortunately, I had OS X with a firewall... except they told me to disable the firewall and virus software since I was having problems. If that works, ordinary user thinks, "Wow, well if I can't use a high-speed internet connection with a firewall/virus software, what's the point"? That seems like a setup for disaster.

      Remember, most users come up with questions like this. I don't think they're at all aware of what can happen, or what the effects of identity theft are, or how much it sucks. All they know is that geeks like us tend to berate them, companies like Comcast give them a mile of rope to hang themselves, and companies like Microsoft push insecure solutions that have enough security holes to cause companies like Comcast to shut off their internet access.

      Come on, we can do better, all around.

    5. Re:Whose fault? by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe technically, but that's not how the law works (thankfully).

      Or do you think every time you hand a credit/debit card to a cashier at K-mart, that gives them the right to start charging things to your account?

      Hell, your account number and routing info is on a cheque. So everyone you write a cheque to gets unlimited access to your chequing account?

      Thinking bigger, all I need is your SSN (easily obtained) to steal your identity and take out a few hundred thou in mortages.

      And it's all your fault! You gave it to me when you came to work for me! Hahahaha.

      If BoA allows any unauthorized person to remove money from my account, it is their fault.

      It doesn't matter how they came across my PIN or account number.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    6. Re:Whose fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the problem is far worse than this.

      With the ability to register unicode domain names, you may indeed see www.citibank.com and have no idea that the "a" is from the russian alphabet and therefore points to a different server and IP, even though visually, right down to the pixel, they are identical.

      All browsers should show warnings for any domain containing characters from multiple languages, or not permit them at all. I can think of no legitimate use for them.

    7. Re:Whose fault? by flosofl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's also JavaScript overlay on the address bar. Put the "spoofed" address in an overlay that fits over the legitimate one. Same thing with the "padlock" for SSL.

      --
      "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
    8. Re:Whose fault? by bfields · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If I walk up to you on the street and say "Hey, I'm from Bank of America, I need your bank account information." and then you proceed to give it to me, then it is indeed your fault.

      The closer analogy would be you walking up to me, saying "Hey, the Bank of America is over there", and giving me directions to an address where you have, overnight, erected an identical replica of a bank of america branch. (OK, perhaps the font on the logo is just slightly wrong if I think to look really closely.)

      In retrospect, I shouldn't have trusted directions from a random stranger, but by the time I'm standing there with the bank branch in front of me and the original referral already forgotten, it may not really cross my mind to doubt its legitimacy.

      The real idiocy here is all the banks setting up "secure" websites where you authenticate by sending them one secret (or maybe one of a few secrets), with the result that all it takes is for that secret to be compromised once, and your identity is compromised forever.

      Perhaps this will finally them that they need something better. (Surely some kind of USB dongle/smartcard-like thingy would be cheap enough now?)

      --Bruce Fields

    9. Re:Whose fault? by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The closer analogy would be you walking up to me, saying "Hey, the Bank of America is over there", and giving me directions to an address where you have, overnight, erected an identical replica of a bank of america branch. (OK, perhaps the font on the logo is just slightly wrong if I think to look really closely.)

      And even closer analogy than that would be you saying "I work for the Bank of America - you must go to that new office over there and enter your banking information, because otherwise we'll shut your account down."

    10. Re:Whose fault? by Brandybuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Similar scams have been played in real life with fake ATMs...

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    11. Re:Whose fault? by kallisti · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Have you seen these emails? They're damned convincing,


      Sounds like a good time to try the Phishing IQ test. As for using the exact domain, lots of sites use a different provider for their online commerce, so that won't necessarily work.

    12. Re:Whose fault? by LoudMusic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Scams are criminal acts. Thus, the money was removed from the bank due to a criminal act. A bank that loses money to a criminal act that refuses to reimburse its customers might well lose its status as a bank. They took from her, without her permission, money from her bank account. Which is stealing, fraud, etc, etc. Maybe it was her fault it got stolen, but the money was stolen, from the bank.

      Though I do agree that this is the law and that you are correct, I disagree with the law. Fraud and scams have been going on long enough that I believe anyone who is the victim of a scam or fraudulent act is the person at fault and should be held responsible for their actions. How difficult would it have been for her to call her bank and ask if they were sending such emails? And how many times has the general public been told by any system administrative group "We will never ask for your usename and password." ? She screwed up and it cost her bank a lot of money. If I were her bank, any rates on loans just went up, and interest on savings accounts just hit the floor.

      In this case, the woman essentially is no longer the victim - the bank is. So scams and fraud will not stop because the idiot consumers (this woman as an example) have no reason to stop falling for the scam. They are the weakest link! They must be punished!

      (:

      --
      No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    13. Re:Whose fault? by jpkunst · · Score: 4, Informative

      Do you have any links to examples or javascript that can actually do this?

      Firefox spoof demonstration. No padlock spoof, though, I believe.

      JP

    14. Re:Whose fault? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > If BoA allows any unauthorized person to remove money from my account, it is their fault.
      > It doesn't matter how they came across my PIN or account number.

      Problem is, a person with the account number and PIN *is* an authorized person; that's the whole point of PINs in the first place. That's why you don't give them out to ANYONE who asks, and that's why yes, it was it was the person's fault for giving out info that should NEVER be given out.

    15. Re:Whose fault? by Boricle · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I wonder if perhaps the banks need to set up their own "phishing" process.

      Email their own members, redirect them to the wrong web site, which looks real - and once they login, give them a stern looking warning and a lecture on Phishing.

      And if they get sucked in two or three times, revoke their account privliges.

      It would be annoying - but eventually I suspect that banks will have to take more proactive measures to educate their customers.

  6. Break down percentages. by nberardi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What is the percentage of OS broken down. Is it consistant with the OS spread. Such as 90% Windows, 7% Linux, 3% Mac? Anybody know of a break down? What does everybody think it is?

    1. Re:Break down percentages. by coene · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My bet is 100% Windows. It doesn't make sense to devote time for development to target anything else.

  7. No wonder... by Meostro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Zombie victim Carty took matters into her own hands: She did research on how to clean up and protect her PC and diligently updates programs that scan her computer for various types of malicious code. Her PC now runs clean. "I had no clue at Christmas that I would become a security expert," she says.

    So that's all it takes to be a security expert these days? No f'ing wonder there are so many security problems these days

    Also, it lightens my heart and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that it only took "as many as 70,000 pieces of mail" in a day to get Comcast to shut her down.

    1. Re:No wonder... by bludstone · · Score: 5, Funny

      Holy crap. That makes me a secuirty expert! Time to update the resume!

      --

      no .sig
    2. Re:No wonder... by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, she installs NAV and she's a security expert.

      By that token, everyone who's installed SP2 for XP is now a security expert.

      Are you linux guys listening? Huh?

      When's the last time YOU updated YOUR virus definitions? If you ever wanted proof that linux is a hobby OS, and not for security experts like Gramma Carty, this is it.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    3. Re:No wonder... by jazman_777 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      So that's all it takes to be a security expert these days?

      A one-eyed man in the land of the blind is King.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    4. Re:No wonder... by hunterx11 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The sad part is that she is a security expert compared to most people. If the majority of people didn't know that cars used internal combustion engines, you'd practically be a car wizard if you knew things like that the car has a transmission and different gears.

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    5. Re:No wonder... by FyRE666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Holy crap. That makes me a secuirty expert! Time to update the resume!

      If I were you I'd brush up on my spell checker skills before firing off those CVs...

  8. From the article by Rubberpants.net · · Score: 5, Funny

    "When I pay my water bill, I expect my water to be drinkable out of the tap. Today, when you pay your Internet bill, the data you get is not consumable."

    Not without some kind of sauce or dressing. Plain 1's and 0's taste like cardboard.

    1. Re:From the article by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Funny

      Pretzels?

      It really doesn't matter.

      It all turns to number 2's in the end.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  9. Heres an idea! by blankinthefill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lets buy a whole bunch of these zombified pcs, and launch a DDoS attack against the isps of known spammers! It may force some action, and I think it would be worth the cost.

  10. Security Expert? by rvw14 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Zombie victim Carty took matters into her own hands: She did research on how to clean up and protect her PC and diligently updates programs that scan her computer for various types of malicious code. Her PC now runs clean. "I had no clue at Christmas that I would become a security expert," she says.

    It is quite sad that a person who just updates their computer and runs a virus scanner is now considered a "security expert."

    1. Re:Security Expert? by astrokid · · Score: 2, Funny

      hmmm.. That gives me an idea, I think it's time I updated my resume.
      :)

      --

      Chewie does not get a medal. Come on, George. Can a Wookie get a medal?
    2. Re:Security Expert? by bokmann · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's funny, because Grandma laughs at people who buy frozen pizza and pre-fab cookie dough who think they are 'cooking'.

    3. Re:Security Expert? by nothings · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's called "hyperbole". Look it up.

  11. Voodoo Legend by MikeMacK · · Score: 5, Funny
    And, much like zombies of voodoo legend, they mindlessly do the bidding of their masters and help commit crimes online.

    I didn't realize the zombies of voodoo legend were online.

  12. Another story: Telenor takes down 'massive' botnet by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Informative

    Telenor takes down 'massive' botnet (From the story, they didn't really take down the botnet, just rendered it headless for a little while.)

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  13. Odd. by nathan+s · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have to say, I don't understand how people get into so much trouble.

    Maybe I've been lucky, but I've ran a Windows XP system for about a year now (and a Windows 98SE system for about 2 years prior under the same conditions), doing the occasional patches from Windows Update, without a virus scanner or firewall. If I do something stupid that makes me suspect that I've contracted something, I'll drop over to http://housecall.antivirus.com/ and do a quick scan. This generally only happens when I'm trying to find a crack for something on a P2P network and the bastards have embedded a keystroke logger or some other little nasty in a trojan crack package.

    Otherwise, I do an occasional glance-over at the list of processes running, and if my modem is lighting up like a Christmas tree I might fire up Sygate Personal Firewall or something just to see what's happening with the traffic, but I've never seen it give me real cause for concern. I still get some port traffic for the old Code Red worms and what not, but nothing that seems to have been really problematic.

    As I said, maybe I'm just lucky. Then again, maybe I don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook Express, and maybe that helps a lot. Who knows.:-)

    1. Re:Odd. by Lispy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Errr, have you looked up the zombie auction and did you detect any familiar sounding subnets? ;-)

    2. Re:Odd. by ChangeOnInstall · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe I've been lucky, but I've ran a Windows XP system for about a year now (and a Windows 98SE system for about 2 years prior under the same conditions), doing the occasional patches from Windows Update, without a virus scanner or firewall. If I do something stupid that makes me suspect that I've contracted something, I'll drop over to http://housecall.antivirus.com/ and do a quick scan. This generally only happens when I'm trying to find a crack for something on a P2P network and the bastards have embedded a keystroke logger or some other little nasty in a trojan crack package.

      I don't think you're lucky, but rather that you are unaware of the real state of your computer. Not all viruses/worms/cracks make themselves known to the end user, even a savvy user who is checking the process listing. It's very easy to hide processes from the user, regardless of their system-administrative credentials on a Windows system. Malware is designed by folks who know the ins-and-outs of a Windows box far better than you or I, with the goal that it might be able to fool the author himself.

      I highly recommend adding a firewall to your situation at the bare minimum.

      I do not personally use Antivirus software on my Windows boxen, but only because I use them only for software testing, and do not install any software other than that produced by either myself, the Fortune 500, or well-known open source developers. I also do not use Outlook or MSIE on these boxes, with the exception that MSIE is used in the software testing.

      If you're running cracks and warez though, you're putting yourself in a very compromising position even with antivirus software. Running without it is foolish if you value your data, privacy, or have any regard for what your computer does while you're away.

      --
      What has *science* done?!? -- Dr. Weird (ATHF)
  14. Article attaches no blame to Microsoft by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's interesting that articles like this don't blame Microsoft. One wonders how Microsoft arranges that.

    1. Re:Article attaches no blame to Microsoft by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Money? Lots and lots of money?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:Article attaches no blame to Microsoft by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And one wonders why users do not recieve some of they blame they rightly deserve, either.

      First lady in the story - obviously had zero protection beforehand, and it took a major problem w/her connection being disconnected before she got some. If nothing else, at least it sounds like she has the concept of basic security down a little better now.

      Second lady mentioned - a single call to her bank for verification would have likely saved her any trouble. I have gotten several "phishing" mails myself, and they are incredibly easy to recognize - often from a bank I have no accounts with or that never sends mail otherwise, they contain grammatical/spelling errors that would never appear in a real mail, and ask for information that the real bank would have absolutely no reason to need verified.

      Third lady mentioned - more Microsoft's fault than the others, due to the security holes. Still, it sounds like she either didn't patch things, opened a nasty attachment, or otherwise brought the software on through her own action. Hard to tell since they don't mention anything by name.

      So yes, Microsoft is evil. But don't fool yourself into thinking that users aren't contributing their share of problems either.

    3. Re:Article attaches no blame to Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have gotten several "phishing" mails myself, and they are incredibly easy to recognize - often from a bank I have no accounts with or that never sends mail otherwise, they contain grammatical/spelling errors that would never appear in a real mail, and ask for information that the real bank would have absolutely no reason to need verified.

      You should see some of the semi-literate shite that comes from my bank. And not on emails asking me to verify my account details either.

      The first few batches of truly illiterate youngsters have made it into the media, and now serve to corrupt the next generation by example. We're all doomed. Before long, we'll have the reverse of what you've pointed out - anyone who can string a sentence together will be regarded as either (i) a dumb criminal who "cant' rite propper" or (ii) a smart criminal who's put far too much effort into his writing to be from a real bank.

  15. The reverse firewall defense ... by syrinje · · Score: 3, Informative

    Very few people realise that deploying a cheap effective reverse firewall will save them from being unwitting spam zombies (kinda sounds like sex slaves don't it? It sure is as demeaning!).
    Granny had the right ideas.
    Home users, please note - a. You need a firewall
    b. You need a reverse firewall
    c. You need to dump IE and use Firefox
    d. You need to try dumping windoze and move on - that puppy is probably crapping all over your machine.
    --

    --
    See that long UID - that's what you get for lurking too long
  16. What kind of zombies? by FluffyWhiteBunny · · Score: 3, Funny

    Are these Scoobie Doo type zombies? They aren't all that bad it's just some guy with a mask. As long as it's not the new "Dawn of the Dead" uberzombies I think we'll all be ok, just walk around them.

  17. Spam declining? by gtrubetskoy · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Actually, according to my spammeter the amount of spam has been slightly declining over the past few months. I'm still at around 400/day level though...

    1. Re:Spam declining? by Saint+Aardvark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Interesting...the graph at my old job shows the same thing. Keep in mind, though, that could just as easily be spammers working around filters (at least in my case, and I assume yours).

  18. The price? $3000 for 20,000 machines... by Onimaru · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...the ability to DoS SCO for the rest of the century...priceless.

    There are some things money can't buy. For the rest, there's my Zombie Army of Evil.

    --
    adam b.
  19. 100% Windows. by pavon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would a spammer want to deal with the increased complexity and labor involved in infecting and managing a heterogeneous zombie herd when it would increase its size by less than 10%? It's a waste of time and money.

  20. Switch ad in the making? by Kevin+DeGraaf · · Score: 2, Funny

    Zombie victim Carty took matters into her own hands: She did research on how to clean up and protect her PC

    So which distro is she running, then?

    --
    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked.
    1. Re:Switch ad in the making? by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      She did research on how to clean up and protect her PC

      Wanna bet some cash money that "research" meant asking the guy at Best Buy who sold her a copy of Norton for Enterprises and a few sets of Monster Cables?

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  21. Funny by suwain_2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's funny you should mention computer problems.

    Whenever I view this it.slashdot.org site, everything on my screen is all washed-out.

    Is this a symptom of being a zombie PC?

    --
    ________________________________________________
    suwain_2 :: quality slashdot p
  22. Socially Inept by Lovedumplingx · · Score: 2, Funny

    The first article states, Cyberintrusions traditionally have been the domain of socially inept males launching electronic attacks for fun and bragging rights...

    Sorry maybe it's just me, but aren't nerds by definition socially inept. Let's be honest, it's the socially inept who keep the world running.

  23. Pay the $3k and clean house by jamezilla · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This sounds like a good deal for the authorities. For 3 grand you get:
    1. a list of machines that need to be cleaned up
    2. a bank account or other information that can be used to track down the spammers/crackers
    I guarantee $3k is cheaper than what it would actually cost tax payers if the authorities did their job with normal investigative work.
    1. Re:Pay the $3k and clean house by fgb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Not to mention that if they get the spammer, they can probably get the money back!

    2. Re:Pay the $3k and clean house by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In an economics class I took, we were presented with a case where a bunch of missionaries got together for a project where they would collect alot of money, then go to a third world nation and buy some underage prostitutes, then bring them to the states to give them help, treatment, and a caring foster home to be raised up in.

      It all sounds good on paper until you look at the fact that the people that kidnapped the kids got paid, so they have incentive to repeat the process. The argument was that the better (albeit longer and harder) fight was to make child prostitution not profitable or try to arrest or contain the kidnappers somehow.

      Somehow I think the the spammers would figure out a way to get their money, cover their tracks, and sneak away. I don't think they really care what happens to the 20k zombies. They got their money, weather the zombieNet was used to clean house or actually send spam.

    3. Re:Pay the $3k and clean house by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, that would work, but it would be APPEASING the spammers. Modern government can't open the door of appeasement. No, far better to raid some third world software development house that has nothing to do with spam, kick the shit out the bastards and hope it stands as a warning to everybody else.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
  24. The true value of Windows... by dtjohnson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let's see...$3000 for 20,000 windows boxen works out to 15 cents per machine. Yeah boy, that's about what one is worth.

  25. Granny.... by kinrowan · · Score: 2, Funny

    what a big ... mailbox you have.

  26. ISPs could do *so* much here. by Samurai+Cat! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just start monitoring for bursts of spam from their clients, and simply *pick up the phone* and *call them.* "Sir, we've detected mass spam coming from your connection. Please clean up your computer. You have one week."

    --

    "People" using "unnecessary" quotes should be "shot".
    1. Re:ISPs could do *so* much here. by Photo_Nut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What about blocking the customer from the internet, and redirecting all HTTP traffic into an informational web page, reading something like:

      "ISP has detected that your computer has been sending out suspicious network traffic. In order to protect you from the worms, trojans, and viruses, and other dangers which may have infected your computer, please download and run (link to ISP provided virus scanner). If the program detects that you don't have a known problem, it will reactivate your internet connection automatically. Thank you for choosing ISP. We hope this service of protecting our customers is valuable to you, and appreciate your feedback (web form)."

      It seems to me that internet service providers should give their customers service to handle the problems that they will get from being connected to the internet. If connecting to the net causes your computer to be probed and attacked, then ISPs should attempt to isolate these attacks and protect against them. Why leave the only security up to the (often ignorant) customer?

      By submitting this comment, I am giving up my ability to moderate this discussion.

  27. So where are the cops? by Jaywalk · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Breaking into someone else's computer without permission is illegal. A zombie network of 20,000 PCs means that someone has compromised 20,000 computers and, apparently, advertising that fact for personal gain. How hard would it be for a cop to shell out the $2000, then arrest spammer? Of course anyone who has read Sterling's The Hacker Crackdown realizes just how clueless law enforcement can be with technical issues, but this one looks like a no brainer:
    • The perpetrator (a spammer) is almost universally hated.
    • Spammers do real damage.
    • They are doing this damage for a pure profit motive.
    • They are operating out in the open, making for an easy arrest.
    So why are these bozos still in business?
    --
    ===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
    1. Re:So where are the cops? by LoudMusic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Breaking into someone else's computer without permission is illegal. A zombie network of 20,000 PCs means that someone has compromised 20,000 computers and, apparently, advertising that fact for personal gain. How hard would it be for a cop to shell out the $2000, then arrest spammer? Of course anyone who has read Sterling's The Hacker Crackdown realizes just how clueless law enforcement can be with technical issues, but this one looks like a no brainer:

      How embarrassing would it be for the police to discover their own machines in the zombie network ...

      --
      No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    2. Re:So where are the cops? by spoonyfork · · Score: 2, Funny

      Breaking into someone else's computer without permission is illegal.

      It isn't breaking in if you ask to be let in and they let you in.

      --
      Speak truth to power.
  28. Not so much actually by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Informative

    We get Linux boxes in labs we don't manage hacked all the time. They usually aren't used for SPAM, they are instead used for warez, eggdrops or shells, but they get hacked all the same. Reason is the same too: someone fails to patch their system, and it gets exploited.

    Linux needs patching as well because OSS is not immune to security holes. SSH, BIND and even PNG are three off the top of my head that have had security problems in the past. If you run a Linux box that has an SSH server, and you don't patch it when an SSH venurability comes out, someone WILL hack it.

  29. Re:Hard to believe this stuff is going on... by Onimaru · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, it's nasty all right.

    Wanna be more disgusted, though? Say we did get a good handle on one of them. Well, then the federal prosecutor has a hell of a job on his hands. All he has to do is make 12 people understand how spam works, how they found the guy, why their "searches" were legal, what he was doing, and why it's a crime. Which, if it were possible to make people understand, would have prevented the crime in the first place.

    And, if he's really unlucky, the defendant waives jury trial and he instead has to convince one very conservative 70 year old man of all these things.

    --
    adam b.
  30. what is this supposed to mean? by bbdd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ""Consumers should demand what they do of other utilities," says Kip McClanahan, CEO of security firm Tipping Point. "When I pay my water bill, I expect my water to be drinkable out of the tap. Today, when you pay your Internet bill, the data you get is not consumable.""

    how is it my ISP's fault if i am too stupid to secure my own system? it is quotes like this that pass the buck from the end-user/consumer. hey, if you want to drive a car, you need a license. want an internet connection over 56k? make people pass some sort of security review or test.

    (yes, save your breath, i know ISPs can do things to reduce the problems, but it's not their fault in the end that these machines are messed up.)

  31. Security Expert? by tommasz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but calling that woman a Security Expert is wrong. She discovered the hard way that not being aware of security was a mistake but all that makes her is a security-aware user. Of course, that implies most computer owners aren't.

  32. Alternative by TheVidiot · · Score: 2, Funny

    10,000 Homo DJ's - $14.99

  33. caveat emptor by WormholeFiend · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If spammers are scammers, can you really expect good value for your money?

    I fully expect follow-up news stories on how someone who wanted to open a business online fell for a mass marketing scam, paying spammers thousands of dollars only to see the spammers vanish in thin air with their money.

  34. I wonder how the transaction is actually made by OpenSourced · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean, it's like "I transfer you 3 grand and then you mail me a password to a controller server", or something like that ? I guess you have to be mighty sure of the delivery of the goods to enter in such deals.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
  35. NEWSFLASH: Grandma thinks she's a security expert by ShallowThroat · · Score: 2, Funny

    from the article:

    Zombie victim Carty took matters into her own hands: She did research on how to clean up and protect her PC and diligently updates programs that scan her computer for various types of malicious code. Her PC now runs clean. "I had no clue at Christmas that I would become a security expert," she says.

    Umm, riight. Anyone who downloads ad-aware and turns on their firewall is a security expert now? Shit, my networking prof must be a god damn diety then.

    --
    The "Insert Quote Here" line is almost as predictable as inserting an actual quote.
  36. Re:End Users are Stupid by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

    Stupid? Well, people look at their home computers like their TV or their toaster. Is there any other consumer product that requires so much awareness to run?

    Probably only the the automobile. We make people take written and practical tests before they're allowed to drive unsupervised, and then in most places they are expected to get insurance to cover any damage their operation of the car may cause.

    Is that where you want to go?

    Using a computer on the Internet will never be as simple and relatively safe as using a TV, but it could be moved down the scale of complexity in that direction, by better engineering of Internet software and making ISP managed reverse firewalls part of the standard broadband service.

    Granny should be able to just turn on her computer to order to sell her crocheting on ebay or get email with pictures of her grandkids without having to research computer administration. And, when she's done, I think she should be able to flick a massive off switch (like on the old PC/XTs) and watch the CRT raster turn into a little dot, without having to worry that somebody is using her computer when she thinks it is idle. I for one would think that was cool.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  37. Re:End Users are Stupid by gorbachev · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many who drive cars know how to fix it? I certainly don't, nor do I have any desire to learn to fix my car.

    It's not the end users' fault the majority of home computers are by default magnets for virii, trojans, worms and spyware.

    Certain OS manufacturer is at fault here, as well as the Dells and Gateways of the world, who insist on selling zombie networks when solutions to prevent them from occurring have been in place for quite a while.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
  38. 0wn3d || 4 r3nt by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...Can I get folding@home running on those 20 thousand boxes?

    Why ask for what people will give you for free?

    It would be a bit alarming to see if your own computer is in the list. Should be enough of an epiphany for some to actually do something about their personal computer security.

    w3 0wn y00r pc & w1ll r3nt 1t b@ck t0 y00

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  39. Who is this retard? by TurboStar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the USA Today article: Are hackers using your PC to spew spam and steal?

    "Consumers should demand what they do of other utilities," says Kip McClanahan, CEO of security firm Tipping Point. "When I pay my water bill, I expect my water to be drinkable out of the tap. Today, when you pay your Internet bill, the data you get is not consumable."

    Huh? Where does this guy live that he gets consumable water out of his tap? Mine tastes like a dirty swimming pool.

    I don't drink the water out of my tap; it goes through a filter before it goes in my body. I also don't open the gas line and hold a match to it; it goes through a burner in a carefully crafted device. And I don't have bare wires lying around carrying electricity; they are all installed in receptacles to keep me from electrocuting me and my guests.

    I certainly can't sue the gas company if my faulty furnace causes my house to burn down (well, who knows these days, I probably could but it'd be wrong). And blaming the electric company for pushing too many electrons through my heart when I tried to pry some bread out of my toaster with a butter knife isn't right either. If you're daring enough to consume the water out of the tap you are probably ignorant of its contents: heavy metals, pesticides, chlorine variants, sometimes fluoride, and who knows what else.

    So why should I blame my ISP for giving me data from the Internet? That's what I'm paying for and it is exactly what I want. As long as the signal levels are right for my modem and the information is IPv4 they are doing no wrong by me.

    The burden of protection lies within the devices and software connected to the net. The consumer shouldn't have to give this any more thought than what they give their car about changing its oil. So who does the average consumer have to blame? You guessed it! I'm not even going to say it.

  40. Tired of inflated stats by shogarth · · Score: 5, Interesting
    In July, spam made up 94.5% of e-mail traffic, nearly double from a year before, says e-mail management firm MessageLabs.

    Does anyone else wonder where MessageLabs gets their statistics? I can't help but wonder at their methodology (though I suspect rectal extraction). I get daily reports on SpamAssassin and my configured DNS block lists for the servers I manage. Their spam traffic doesn't start to approach 95% of inbound messages. After eliminating all internal email from the statistics, SpamAssassin flags about 20% of incoming email as suspicious and SpamHaus blocks another 10% or so. These are not confidential, hard-to-find addresses. These are university servers where staff and faculty are required to have valid email addresses posted on the department web pages. Any spider worth a damn should have harvested them long ago. I find it very hard to believe that this environment is getting 60% less spam than systems that don't provide a directory of valid addresses.

    Spam is a problem, but it's time journalists (online and otherwise) start taking stats with a grain of salt. Too many organizations are willing to publish questionable numbers in an attempt to sound like they have thoroughly researched the issue.

    Or in the MessageLabs case, to sell a product that will 'solve' the problem.

    1. Re:Tired of inflated stats by azaris · · Score: 2, Interesting

      These are university servers where staff and faculty are required to have valid email addresses posted on the department web pages. Any spider worth a damn should have harvested them long ago. I find it very hard to believe that this environment is getting 60% less spam than systems that don't provide a directory of valid addresses.

      Let me guess: .edu? Spammers have long since started washing their lists for .edu, .gov and .mil addresses. I believe many also filter out ccTLDs. You're looking at a skewed sample.

  41. The zombie collectors arent even bashfull about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Using simple tools, I have watched the inbound connection attempts made to my personal computer. Many of these attempt simple http style requests on unregistered ports. The requests are in the form: ttp://www.helllllabs.com/cgi-bin/found_one.cgi or something like that.

    Going to the website, I find its one that sells proxies of some form. Gee.

    Now this seems like they are signing their own name to their evil deeds. Could this mean anything other than this company is scanning for proxies and registering them using their own website?

  42. Bank account security is not based on secrets... by Otto · · Score: 2, Informative

    The security of my bank account is not based on secret codes or passwords or account numbers or any other blamed thing.

    Every check you writing contains the account number and the routing number and everything else needed to withdraw money from that account. If somebody creates a fake check using that info, and withdraws money from my account, then that is is no way my fault and I'm entitled to reimbursement of those funds.

    Likewise, somebody doing the same thing electronically is not my fault either. There is nothing essentially different in the transaction. Fraud is fraud.

    Bank accounts have never been based on secrets. It might not be smart for me to give out my account number to everybody, but it's something I do every time I write a check or use a debit card or use one of several forms of payment. I *must* give my account number to somebody I want to pay from my bank account.

    Is this a flaw in the system itself? Yes, absolutely. But until everybody moves towards public/private key authentication and so forth, it's just the way things are.

    The public-private key method is the only solution to this sort of thing that I'm aware of. To "write a check" or make a payment of any sort, I form a message that essentially says 'Pay so much to this person, using this transaction number, on this date' and encrypt it using my private key. Then I give it to that person. They give it to their bank. Their bank gets my public key from my bank (it's a public key, they can give it to anybody who asks for it), verifies the message is valid (since it's signed by my private key, my public key can decrypt it and it validates itself that way), and does the transaction. My bank also verifies the same message before releasing the cash from my account. Unforgeable money transfer accomplished.

    Sounds great? It's a long ways off.What's needed is:
    -Every account holder to have a public/private keypair.
    -Banks have the public key, people have the private key on some sort of device.
    -Device allows transfers of cash from one person to another, probably by simply plugging in a key or wirelessly or whatever. You can think of a thousand ways to do this.
    -Banks need a protocol to transfer public keys around, and all have to agree to some form of standard.
    -Etc, etc, ad infinitum. It gets more complex the more you think about it. If you assume that the electronic cash transfer happens in real time (eliminating "float"), then it's actually slightly easier. If not, then you get the concept of people transferring funds that was just transferred to them before telling the bank about it, and it gets hella complicated. But it's all doable with the crypto, it's just complex.

    --
    - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  43. Silly Rhetorical question: by TiggertheMad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is a leading question that seems typical of a smug linux zealot. A better question would be, 'What is the ratio of zombied linux boxes in proportion to it's total installed user base.' Since most people use Windows, it follows that most of the zombie boxes should be windows boxes.

    Even that isn't totally informing, as how many of those people who run Windows would be less vunerable if they ran linux? Most of the problem isn't the OS, but the lack of understanding on how a computer works. If you aren't a skilled admin, you are going to get haxxored regardless of the OS.

    I think Linux is a superior idea and platform, but win the argument with sound logic, not snyde comments.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  44. Worst quote from TFA by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Consumers should demand what they do of other utilities," says Kip McClanahan, CEO of security firm Tipping Point. "When I pay my water bill, I expect my water to be drinkable out of the tap. Today, when you pay your Internet bill, the data you get is not consumable."

    I only partially agree with this. What should happen is they should sell me access, and I should be able to waive their protections under the promise that I provide my own. I want to run my low-traffic web and email servers from my connection. Most people don't need to. I will take the extra work of securing them in return for being allowed to use them.
    A blanket stop of much of this is all but impossible, though.

  45. It's a crime but so are lots of things by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Scams are criminal acts. Thus, the money was removed from the bank due to a criminal act. A bank that loses money to a criminal act that refuses to reimburse its customers might well lose its status as a bank.
    And robbing me at gunpoint while I take money out of an ATM is a criminal act also. Should I expect Bank of America to reimburse my lost funds? I might have a case against them if I can prove that they didn't erect adequate security measures around their ATM. But nobody ever told me I was guaranteed not to get robbed at an ATM. I'm expected to take a reasonable amount of caution about my person and be aware of my surroundings. If this particular ATM was pretty much identical to every other ATM on the network where people didn't get robbed last week, then so far as I know, it's up to me to recover the lost funds from the criminal who robbed me, not the bank that otherwise facilitated a perfectly legitimate transaction.

    Even closer to the mark, if I use my ATM card to pay for a product and that product later turns out to not work as advertised, that's a crime (at least in the state of California, where I live). We have "lemon laws" that say that products we buy should perform as advertised. I deserve my money back. But even though the company that sold me the product deducted the money directly from my account, it defrauded me -- not the bank. Why should the bank be held liable? Because I failed to investigate the seller and/or the product beforehand? Because I failed to file a civil suit against the party that defrauded me?

    "Give people an inch and they'll take a mile" is the phrase that comes to mind here. Bank of America did the right thing by ol' grandma in this case. They didn't have to, so let's applaud them for it.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  46. How do they get the PC's away from the zombies? by the_REAL_sam · · Score: 3, Funny


    Basically the Undead could have rights too, I suppose.

    --
    "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
  47. Re:Whose fault? HERS!!! by fmaxwell · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A bank that loses money to a criminal act that refuses to reimburse its customers might well lose its status as a bank.

    It didn't "lose" her money. It followed the proper security procedures involving the use of a login name, password, and bank account number.

    They took from her, without her permission, money from her bank account.

    That's the key: "They took from her." They didn't steal from the bank. There wasn't negligence on the part of the bank. The bank didn't leak her account number, login name, or password. She did. She fell for a scam through no apparent fault of the bank. And now we all pay for it in the form of higher fees, lower savings account interest, etc.

    Suppose she was duped into giving her house key to some burglar posing as someone from a carpet cleaning service. Should the mortgage company have to pay when the burglar steals her stuff? Should the home builder? Should the maker of her door lock? Of course not. So why do we treat physical keys so differently than virtual keys (login credentials)? You'd never suggest that anyone but the homeowner was responsible for the loss if they gave their house key to some con artist. So why is the bank responsible when the customer gives away the "keys" to their bank account?

  48. Re:End Users are Stupid by Reapman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fix a car no.. but maintence on a car.. yes. If you don't know how to check your oil, windshield washer fluid, heck how to fill the gas tank, your not going to get far. I agree that we don't need the world being able to repair failed hardware or troubleshoot irq settings (Bad example I know) but being able to keep their computer "clean" and in decent working order should be achievable. Not saying it's the end users fault completely, software and hardware still has a ways to go before it's as easy as it probably should be for the average Joe (or Jane) but people do need to take more interest in these "new fangled computer thingies" if they're gonna use em. My 2 (CAN funds) cents

  49. Buy Grandma a Macintosh, already! by wheatwilliams · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Grandma does not have to become a computer security expert. All she needs is a Macintosh.
    Friends don't let elderly friends drive Windows on the Internet.

  50. My Linux Box was a zombie... by sunbane · · Score: 3, Informative

    That is so true... thought I had security pretty tight on my Cobalt Qube running Linux... then my ISP called me up telling me I'd already used 30G upload and download for the month after two weeks... I normally have like 400MB for a month on my little family server. The spammers were using the Squid vulnerability to make my box a zombie remailer. Had to slap on greatly increased security onto my firewall! They never logged in to my box at all - simply routed their filthy spam through my open port. From all the hits I got googling my issue, I'd say this is way to common... this is one case where Linux is easier to abuse than windows!

  51. SpecialHam.com? by sdo1 · · Score: 5, Funny
    From the USA Today article...

    One indication of the going rate for zombie PCs comes from a June 11 posting on SpecialHam.com, an electronic forum for spammers.

    And you guys didn't put that link in the main Slashdot article?!?!?! Oh come on! If there's a site that deserves to be slashdotted, that one must be it.

    -S

    --
    --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
  52. Re:Whose fault? HERS!!! by rgmoore · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It followed the proper security procedures involving the use of a login name, password, and bank account number.

    No. It didn't follow the proper security procedures. It followed its choice of security procedures. The success of this kind of phishing scam is evidence that those security procedures are not proper; they're inadequate because they're so easily defeated with a bit of social engineering. The bank needs to design a better security system- one that uses a time-dependent smart card, for instance- so that phishing doesn't work.

    --

    There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

  53. I hereby crown this woman "Queen of the Idiots" by phillymjs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the article:
    ----------
    Heather Hall can trace the start of her online banking nightmare to the day she received what she thought was a legitimate e-mail request from Bank of America asking her to click a link to a bank Web page. The 27-year-old health services worker typed in her login, password and account number.

    [deletia]

    Bank of America agreed to reimburse the money stolen from Hall's account, but only after she badgered them. "They wanted me to believe it was my fault," says Hall.
    ----------

    Gee, I hate to break it to you, sweetheart, but it WAS your fault. YOU were the gullible one who clicked on the wrong link and gave thieves your username, password and account number!

    As long as her attitude is prevalent among the majority, the problem of malware will never go away. Not only are these people completely oblivious to the dangers waiting to snare people using Windows PCs, even when something bad befalls them they just flat out refuse to believe it was their fault.

    ~Philly

    1. Re:I hereby crown this woman "Queen of the Idiots" by coolsoldier · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Gee, I hate to break it to you, sweetheart, but it WAS your fault. YOU were the gullible one who clicked on the wrong link and gave thieves your username, password and account number!"

      WHAT THE HELL???

      It was NOT the woman's fault!

      The fault rest solely with the theif. If somebody steals money from my bank account, it doesn't matter if they got it at gunpoint or with a fraudulent email, it is not my fault, it is not the bank's fault, it is the theif's fault.

      But of course it's so much easier to blame the unsuspecting user. That's the way to get the problem solved -- get rid of the victims!

      I hereby advocate the death penalty for assault victims.

      (End of Rant)

  54. Contact your AGs by mabu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you all want this stuff stopped, contact your local Attorney General and demand they start prosecuting these cases. The Feds can't do anything if the AGs won't prosecute. Call your AG and tell him you'll make sure he isn't re-elected if he doesn't start prosecuting people for computer tampering.

  55. Disagree with the "utility" analogy. by mwillems · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Consumers should demand what they do of other utilities," says Kip McClanahan, CEO of security firm Tipping Point. "When I pay my water bill, I expect my water to be drinkable out of the tap. Today, when you pay your Internet bill, the data you get is not consumable."

    Seems to me this is off the mark, and it typifies what is wrong with our telecom-oriented providers, as they too believe this all too often.

    The provider provides a connection. He does not provide content. ISDN was a gigantic failure because telco's thought they had to provide content, rather than just a reliable connection.

    If I want content, I will buy an AOL subscription. Otherwise, what I expect is not clean water but a reliable liquid movement mechanism. You don't call it a pipe for nothing. The liquid that comes out will be determined by me, not by the provider of pipes!

    MW

    --

    ---
    BDOS ERR ON A:>
  56. Re:End Users are Stupid by ThePiMan2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    However it is your responsibility to make sure your car does not fall apart on the road, so you hire people to take care of it. Same thing should be done with home pc's.

  57. MOD PARENT UP by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh if I had mod points, my friend, you would be more karma-ful than you are right now. I couldn't agree more. At least she did something about it, instead of sitting ignoring it, hoping it gets better, unlike the other 20,000 plus people mentioned.

  58. I think you underestimate the average jury pool. by geekwench · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Having sat on a jury, I'm pretty certain that you're underestimating the intelligence of the potential juror.

    Anyone who has an e-mail address gets spam. It's an ugly fact of life in the modern age. Figure that, out of a pool of - say - 100 potentials, at least 10 of them have kids. Spammers are notorious about not checking the ages of the people who own the addresses that they spam - and they work very hard on ways to get around filters.
    Leaving the parents aside for the moment, everyone in the hypothetical jury pool gets flooded with this crap, because everyone with an e-mail account does. Period. Plus, I've observed that the less tech-savvy a person is, the angrier they get about spam, because they don't know how to stem the tide. Now, imagine a spammer going up against even 12 of the most sane, rational, mentally well-balanced of his vict^H^H^H^Hpeers. True, a lot of people don't quite understand the tech stuff; but break it down into dollars and sense ("misspelling" intended), and you'll see lightbulbs going off overhead all through the jury box.

    And that goes triple for the conservative old man. A guilty plea would be much safer, all around.

    --
    Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
  59. Re:Odd coincidence by kennedy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    i've been getting these for months. kinda makes me wonder how many people have been fooled by them.

    the funniest by far is the one from the so-called mail administrator from my domain with the same basic message. the funny thing is, i own the domain
    and i run the server that's running the MTA...

  60. Did you miss where I said by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "in labs we don't manage"? The ones we do manage, Solaris, Linux, Windows, etc don't get hacked. We have a firewall, and then firewalls on the systems themselves, auto updating, etc. However, we do not manage all the labs, and those we don't get hacked frequently (Windows and Linux).

  61. What does a Zombified PC call out... by rubberbando · · Score: 2, Funny

    I know Zombified Humans tend to call out "Brains! Brains!"

    Now does that mean that Zombified PC's call out "CPU Cycles! Need CPU Cycles!"?

    or perhaps "Bandwidth! Need Bandwidth!"?

    --
    DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
  62. Opportunity for Providers + Law enforcement by str8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If it hadn't already been published that the list was available (Like it's still for sale now that it's public knowledge), this would be a perfect opportunity for Comcast etc to reclaim some bandwidth. They could team with the FBI/Scottland Yard/Interpol (who would be very interested in such fraud) then buy the list with something tracable.
    If the deal is a scam, follow the money and bust the crook. If it's real, follow the money and bust the crook then clean up the zombies on your network.
    Basically it's a no lose opportunity.

    Psst... Hey buddy, can you spare a .sig?

  63. Zombie network by dcam · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm going to wait til I can get one second hand. It's bound to come down in price to something more like $1000.

    --
    meh
  64. Broadband companies could help a little... by zerofoo · · Score: 2, Informative

    Broadband companies could do more to protect their users and the internet in general - here are a few suggestions:

    1. Block outbound port 25 from residential users that OBVIOUSLY have compromised machines sending out hundreds or thousands of emails a day.

    2. Provide cable/DSL modems with some NAT/Firewalling capability turned on by default. Tech savvy users will figure out how to forward ports or disable NAT if necessary.

    3. Provide free trial anti-virus software with their configuration software.

    4. During installation of supplied software, ask the user if they would like to turn on "automatic software updates".

    These steps would go a long way to securing 90% of non-tech savvy people. Geeks could ignore all this and go about their business.

    -ted

  65. Re:Whose fault? HERS!!! by Gleef · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's the key: "They took from her." They didn't steal from the bank. There wasn't negligence on the part of the bank. The bank didn't leak her account number, login name, or password. She did. She fell for a scam through no apparent fault of the bank. And now we all pay for it in the form of higher fees, lower savings account interest, etc.

    Banks are legally responsible for securing the funds in your account, and for only giving those funds to authorized people. To do this, banks have a wide number of security choices available to them.

    Banks have deliberately chosen a pretty flimsy set of security procedures, even though they are held financially liable. This is because the amount they lose due to fraud with existing systems (more often, due to insurance premiums to make someone else pay for fraud) is less than it would cost them to beef up security more (both in direct cost, and in lost customers who want an "easy" bank).

    When a particular kind of fraud increases, the banks try to pick the cheapest and easiest way to curtail that specific kind of fraud. And then they stop, because they have no financial incentive to secure things any more than they already are.

    Suppose she was duped into giving her house key to some burglar posing as someone from a carpet cleaning service. Should the mortgage company have to pay when the burglar steals her stuff? Should the home builder? Should the maker of her door lock?

    No, because none of these people have contracted to secure her home. The closest is the maker of her door lock, and all they are contracted to do is make a door lock that can be used to assist in securing her home.

    When you put money in a bank, you have a contract for them to secure your money, that's the difference.

    --

    ----
    Open mind, insert foot.