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Nissan Exhibits IEEE 1394-Compatible Car

Dirak writes "High-speed IEEE 1394 optical fiber networks have gone off-road with new Nissan's prototype vehicle demonstrated this year's at 11th World Congress on Intelligent Transport Systems. The prototype is equipped with 7 cameras on the body and a 12-inch LCD monitor in the front and another in the rear seat area. Thanks to the in-vehicle IEEE 1394 LAN, which is capable of high-speed communications at 400Mbps via optical cable, the front and the rear seat monitors can display various information simultaneously, for example. The application of optical fiber also means that the weight of the cables can be reduced to about one-half the weight of a conventional wiring harness."

221 comments

  1. $1 says... by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... somebody will get modded up for making an 'insightful' point about how impractical it is for whatever oversimplified reason.

    --
    "Derp de derp."
    1. Re:$1 says... by ExtremeGoatse! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it is a very practical car. The optical fiber used in place of wiring allows the weight of the cables to be reduced to about half of the weight of wires. Think of all the wiring that is in the typical automobile. If we can replace auto wiring with optical fiber, saving over 100 lbs in ecah car, just think of the increased fuel savings! Some of the ideas that start in concept cars end up being very useful in everyday applications.

    2. Re:$1 says... by iezhy · · Score: 1

      most of the wiring in car are power lines (not data) i dont see how can replace them with optic fiber

    3. Re:$1 says... by tonsofpcs · · Score: 1

      Yes, but now let us compare cost. Also, fibre needs more plastic (or similar) coating just to make it visible, yet alone workable.

    4. Re:$1 says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Halve the weight of wires? Saving 100lbs in each car? Not quite.

    5. Re:$1 says... by haus · · Score: 1

      Hey 100 lbs per car, that should almost enough to offset the extra weight caused by overweight Americans sitting inside the car! No more low carb for me, pass the Twinkies.

    6. Re:$1 says... by flyneye · · Score: 1

      youre right,it would be impractical to find a nic cable long enough for ANY roadtrip.gimme a dolla!

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    7. Re:$1 says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The optical fiber used in place of wiring allows the weight of the cables to be reduced to about half of the weight of wires. Think of all the wiring that is in the typical automobile. If we can replace auto wiring with optical fiber, saving over 100 lbs in ecah car, just think of the increased fuel savings!

      Um, y'wanna try running your headlights/heater/starter/etc. on optical fiber? Optical (lightweight) communication is ONE thing but you'll never eliminate enough wire to make a difference. 100 lbs of wiring per car? You ever LIFT 100#? I'm sorry - there isn't that much wire in a car.

    8. Re:$1 says... by mynickwastaken · · Score: 1

      On this time MOST http://www.mostcooperation.com/ is running "on the road" in over 30 car types (BMW, Mercedes, etc.). And already can transport DVD Video ;-)

    9. Re:$1 says... by mwood · · Score: 1

      I'd be more impressed if they can solve the problem where some wire hidden inside a structural member breaks and renders half the electrical devices in the vehicle inoperable, requiring a $500 fishing expedition to find and repair it.

      (A good start would be to get rid of all the designers who think that making all wires and fasteners as inaccessible as humanly possible is the acme of engineering.)

    10. Re:$1 says... by Single+GNU+Theory · · Score: 1

      Many of the power cables in cars go to lights. You can centralize your lights like the fuses and relays are centralized. Instead of having deep reflectors holding bulbs, you'd end up with flatter lights. Imagine getting two more inches in your trunk without the tail lights sticking into the compartment. Some of this advantage is already being realized with LED lamps. You could have a light box with small visible light solid-state lasers or bright LEDs replacing a hundred bulbs and their associated wiring and switching gear in your car (think of all the lights: dash lights, fog lights, all the marker lights, the one in the glove compartment, the luggage lights in the trunk...).

      --
      Little Debian: America's #1 Snack Distro!
    11. Re:$1 says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we can replace auto wiring with optical fiber...
      Lots of wiring in cars carries significant currents. Think of headlights, tail/brake lamps, wiper motor etc. You could use optical fiber instead these wires only if you put at each endpoint a device that will be controlled by a fiber-optic signal and will switch 5-30A relays. This will add to cost, weight and, most likely, reduce reliability.

    12. Re:$1 says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You electronphobic....

      I'd love to see you try starting a car with an optic fibre between the battery and starter motor.

      Yes, sensors are a major part today but they only use the smallest trickle of power therefore these wires are already very small, even compared to your interior lights.

      I doubt there's even 100lbs total of wiring used today in cars to transmit data as opposed to deliver electricity to all the windows, interior lights, sound system, mirrors (inc. built in defrosters), rear window defroster, climate control, rear and front lights along with everyting else under the bonnet which need the sparky sparky.

  2. Big Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean, seriously, whats so special?

    Optical in a car? So? We've had cables in a car for quite some time. We've had monitors in a car for quite some time. We've even had internet in a car for quite some time. Whats so special?

    We've moved to communicating 1394 with light wires?? Hurray.

    No offense, but why is this "stuff that matters"?? Or is it just "news for nerds"?

    1. Re:Big Wow. by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The article is quite light on details; is it just video sent over the firewire link, or is all car data sent by firewire? If it's the later, this could be quite an improvement. If you've ever had to pull out and reinstall a wiring harness, then you know you average car has 8 bazillion wires in it, all of which are unlabeled aside from some obscure color code. A single firewire jack on everything that needs data would be WAY nicer...

      Of course, I doubt you could pull the requisite 15W to power brake lights from a firewire port. :P

    2. Re:Big Wow. by HonkyLips · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps it's not that special, but it's interesting. I don't know if you've played around with your car's electrical system, but they can be an absolute nightmare when something goes wrong. I had all sorts of problems with my first (crappy) car, mainly stemming from a ground cable coming loose. Auto electrical systems are not a fun thing to work on. Traditional wiring can rust, connectors can break, faults in other parts of the car (especially grounding problems) can screw up totally unrelated parts of the car... I had my headlights refuse to work when I accidentally connected my car radio incorrectly, even though it worked fine etc etc etc. I've installed a lot of car radios and in older cars there is no uniform system for wire colours or even power colours. It can take longer to figure out which cables connect to which than it does to actually mount the radio and speakers...
      By moving from a traditional wire loom to an optical system with a protocol like 1394 not only are you avoiding physical problems like weight and corrosion, you're also making everything much easier to troubleshoot and install.
      Personally I think this is great. It's not too dissimilar to the comparison of VoIP to PSTN.

      --
      Putting syrup in coffee is some form of blasphemy.
    3. Re:Big Wow. by Ark42 · · Score: 4, Informative



      http://www.dansdata.com/drivedocks.htm claims up to 60W can be pulled over firewire.

    4. Re:Big Wow. by bergeron76 · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, what do you drive? Does your car have optical technology? I mean, considering that it's nothing special. Are you so 'elite that you can make a statement so derisive as to determine what others may consider "news"?

      I didn't think so. Since you're posting AC, my bet is that you're some dork with 0 (z3r0) credibility. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that you know absolutely nothing about telematics (that means computers in cars). It's much more sophisticated than "cables in cars". Since you're posting AC, let me break it down into something you can understand - "What's so special? We've had transistors in computers for quite some time, why is this news?"

      Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? (I'm probably giving you more credit than I should because I'm assuming you know what a transistor is).

      --
      Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
    5. Re:Big Wow. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Also keep in mind that basically everything in the car is going to go electrical, including brakes, steering, et cetera. Some of this stuff has happened already. We'll be able to run one power bus around the car that gets successively smaller, protected by successive inline fusible links and fuses, and one optical control lead which goes to all of the components. It will simplify troubleshooting of both control and power systems, make it immediately apparent which system has failed, and make the whole thing cost dramatically more, all of which should appeal to automakers :) Running components on the upcoming 48V systems (which will still use a 12V battery for starting) will reduce the weight of the power system, as well.

      This is actually quite practical today, though not using 1394 to communicate between components. Something more like 1-wire is needed. The majority of the engine room harness will remain based on traditional wires and 5V sensors for the forseeable future, however, because equipping all those sensors with their own processor and keeping it all alive in the engine bay would be difficult to say the least. However, having a controller in each taillight module, each headlight module, and so on is quite feasible and will probably not add much to the cost of these components - have you seen what that stuff costs these days? It's ridiculous.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Big Wow. by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Brake lights are moving to LEDs these days, so the power draw will be lower than you'd expect.

    7. Re:Big Wow. by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not over an OPTICAL firewire. I wouldn't go anywhere NEAR the car if hat a 60W laser :)

    8. Re:Big Wow. by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's not that special, but it's interesting. I don't know if you've played around with your car's electrical system, but they can be an absolute nightmare when something goes wrong. I had all sorts of problems with my first (crappy) car, mainly stemming from a ground cable coming loose. Auto electrical systems are not a fun thing to work on.

      FYI, automotive manuals tend to include wiring diagrams which, horror stories aside, tend to be rather accurate. They include color codes for the wires.

      Makes things a lot easier for, say, hooking up trailer lights, wiring in an extra cab fan, or figuring out why half the car doesn't have any running lights.

      The other thing is that, when working on or nearby any electrical system is to take some masking tape, and mark any harnesses you disconnect. Then write down the harness on a spare sheet of paper/cardboard. Saves a lot of hassel upon reassembly.

    9. Re:Big Wow. by adolf · · Score: 1

      There's ten bazillion wires in cars. The reason for this is that there's ten bazillion different things that need done, all in different places.

      Fiber optics won't help that problem at all.

      The only way to reduce cabling and maintain functionality is to use a multipoint data bus of some sort. And it doesn't make a lick of difference if that bus runs over twisted pair, single-mode AT&T glass fiber, coax, or bailing wire. In terms of quantity, they're all the same.

      And now that we know we need a bus, we need a topology. I don't think 1394 supports ring, and I doubt that Nissan is doing any wacky IP routing tricks in their car, so there will be zero redundancy.

      Which brings us to a choice: You'll either have multiple single points of failure that will disable multiple systems simutaneously, or you'll have just as many wires as you started out with. No getting around that, at least not with IEEE 1394. Think about that until it makes sense.

      As for troubleshooting, it would be a complete pain in the ass. I can verify every cable, and read almost every sensor in my car with a volt-ohm meter. I can't read shit on Nissan's proprietary 1394 network. The extent of one's diagnostic capability would be limited to shouting "OH MY GOD, I'M BLIND!" after verifying that light is, indeed, travelling down the pipe.

      But there's really nothing to suggest that any of these things are happening.

      Rather than anything particularly grand, it seems that all Nissan has done is accomplish the divine feat of transmitting video images over Firewire. My grandmother has been doing this at home with her DV camcorder for years. Color me unimpressed.

      Besides:

      Automotive wiring isn't too bad, really, for simple maintenance and modifications. The biggest problem, usually, is that some of the wires are hard to get to.

      Yeah, sure, there's a fuckton of wiring in a modern car. But they're all documented, each and every one of 'em. And they all make sense.

      Your headlights failed when you installed your new radio because you did not RTFM sufficiently.

      It's not hard stuff. Radios use four positives, (hopefully) four negatives, power, switched power, ground, antenna, sometimes a wire for an antenna motor and sometimes one for lighting. Either go to the library, and learn about which wires do what before you begin, or buy your documentation in the form of a pre-labelled wiring harness. (This should be obvious.)

    10. Re:Big Wow. by astro-g · · Score: 1

      Good luck pulling any power from a fibre optic cable though.

    11. Re:Big Wow. by kabocox · · Score: 1

      Of course, I doubt you could pull the requisite 15W to power brake lights from a firewire port. :P

      All that just means it's time for autofirewire edition... that doesn't sound very good. Let's make that autoiwire, nah that sounds dorky. Let's just like IEEE come up with and addition to the 1394 standard to include high Watt devices... It'll be IEEE 1394b or something.

      I give up. I'm not in marketing.

    12. Re:Big Wow. by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Virtually all weirdness is caused by some kind of grounding problem in cars. Sometimes it feels like electrical systems in cars do not obey the normal rules of electricity (for example, the windscreen wipers failed in my old Dodge - I checked there was voltage when the switch was on, and sure enough there it was, I checked the motor was working, and sure enough it was - but despite volts and a working motor, they didn't wipe - problem turned out to be an intermittent ground which only showed up when the system was assembled as a whole. But it was very very odd and not easy to trace). There is a condition we call Escortitis because Ford Escorts suffer this so chronically, where the entire rear light cluster flashes when the indicators are used - caused by bad grounding, and the indicator bulbs grounding out in series through the rest of the lights.

      Intermittent connections are a particular problem in older cars because of the hostile conditions the wiring is subjected to - and they are almost impossible to repair because often the wiring harnesses are bundled in masses of tape. The headlights failed on my Ford Sierra (late at night, on an unlit road section, when I was going at 80 mph - not nice) due to an intermittent wiring fault. Under test, the wiring functioned flawlessly. But when I put it back together, the lights didn't work at all. I ended up simply cutting the old wires at the fuse box and the headlights, and putting in brand new wiring of my own.

      The strangest problem I had was with the Dodge. I got stopped by the police for having no brake lights - I checked the fuse and it had blown. I put in a new fuse, and tested the lights, and they worked fine. So off I went. A week later, I checked the fuse again and it had blown. Eventually, I rigged up my multimeter on the 10A setting in series with the brake light circuit to try and identify when the short circuit was occurring. With the dampness of the time of year, I was rolling down my window when coming to the end of my road due to the condensation. When I lowered the window, some chafed wires were making contact with the body work, and the meter briefly hit full scale deflection (so hard I heard the needle slam on its 10A stop), blowing the brake light fuse.

      Why the hell the brake light circuit got anywhere near the windows in the door I don't know (IIRC, the brake lights seemed to share some wiring with the power locks, despite having a separate fuse - it may have come down to faults elsewhere as the vehicle was old, and the current taking a path that eventually put it on the brake light circuit), but they did. I replaced a bunch of wiring to fix the problem. That Dodge was the worst vehicle I have ever owned for getting weird electrical shorts and bad grounds.

    13. Re:Big Wow. by condition-label-red · · Score: 1
      1. Optical in the car is a big deal. There is a great deal of concern over EMI and moving high speed data over optical alleviates this problem.
      2. To date, all video commonly available in autos is analog. This is a purely digital solution which allows more than 4 uncompressed DVD-resolution video streams over a single digital link. Which, by the way, is daisy-chained and does not require hubs.

      This is the same IEEE1394/Firewire/iLink that is used by high end A/V systems, lowly iPods, and portable HDD. You can even plug in most DV camcorders and have them be available as a video source on the bus.

      Look for this to start showing up in the 2007/2008 model years in high end vehicles.

      --
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
    14. Re:Big Wow. by condition-label-red · · Score: 1

      For more info: IDB Forum

      --
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
    15. Re:Big Wow. by IDidn'tPostThis · · Score: 1


      1. Relays and switching can work wonders
      2. They can always make power separate or go beyond the firewire spec in that regard. After all, the firewire is really about supplying data, not supplying power.

    16. Re:Big Wow. by EEgopher · · Score: 1

      Easier to install? Only if you're carefully doing it yourself. At the UAW assembly plants, when you have 10 seconds to perform your assembly task, folks like to yank wire from big hanging reels, and don't care too much for being delicate with it. This has been a problem for automakers who've used fiber-optics in the past; the fibers frequently break. I wonder how Nissan will regulate their assembly process.

      --
      hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
    17. Re:Big Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not hard stuff. Radios use four positives, (hopefully) four negatives, power, switched power, ground, antenna, sometimes a wire for an antenna motor and sometimes one for lighting. Either go to the library, and learn about which wires do what before you begin, or buy your documentation in the form of a pre-labelled wiring harness. (This should be obvious.)

      Barring a screwup at the factory with regards to wire A being swapped with wire B.

      Crutchfield has wiring harnesses for every radio they sell (I think). They're not the cheapest place to buy car radio X from, but the wiring harness and other information that they have make it worth the premium to buy from them. Last radio I installed, it took me longer to get the radio physically installed in the car then to worry about the wiring harness. Paying them the extra $50 or $100 was money well spent.

      Where you can still run into issues is when you're putting extra amplifiers, bass woofers, equalizers, etc. into the vehicle.

    18. Re:Big Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fiber optics that replace a wiring harness to your stereo? When you figure out how to send electricity through the fiber, as opposed to light, maybe then, will it work. ALL of those light signals have to be converted to analog/digital electrical somewhere along the way... what powers the 12 in lcd in the back seat? The firewire fiber? nope! no electrons flowing there, just photons.. Guess YOU'LL HAVE TO RUN A WIRING HARNESS TO THE LCD. Where do the weight savings come from again?

  3. Now becoming a reality for us all.... by XST1 · · Score: 2, Funny
    The car is fitted with one monitor in the front and another in the rear seat area. Depending on the chosen mode, the front seat monitor can display up to four images at one time from seven different cameras mounted at the front, side and rear of the vehicle, giving the driver all-round visibility including blind spots. Simultaneously, the rear seat monitor can show DVD images.

    Sounds like something between an Episode of Pimp My Ride and a James Bond's Aston Martin DB5.

    1. Re:Now becoming a reality for us all.... by sh1ftay · · Score: 1

      nstrated this year's at 11th World Congress on Intelligent Transport Systems. The prototype is equipped with 7 cameras on the body and a 12-inch LCD monitor in the front and another in the rear seat area.

      Great! Now I can watch the ground pointlessly whiz by instead of paying attention to wear i'm going.

      Marge: I wish we had a glass bottomed car, I can't help but imagine what we're missing!

      Well now your prayers are answered Marge. And they said cellphones were bad..

  4. does this mean... by Bartman_205 · · Score: 1

    that you can play a dvd in your car instead of driving? i mean, do we really need another distraction in cars? plus all of that new electronics, something is bound to go wrong.

    --
    "The world will not come to an end if i write on my hand."
    1. Re:does this mean... by superpulpsicle · · Score: 1

      For those with 2 hour commutes, distraction is a MUST!

    2. Re:does this mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For anyone making any sort of cummute, distraction is damned near deadly !!

      I hope I am never on the same road as you, Hoss. I really mean that.

    3. Re:does this mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice nick... hope I never see your body splattered along the side of the road some day.

  5. Ahhh onboard cameras by Indy+Media+Watch · · Score: 2, Funny

    This will make it so much easier to film those Getaway in Stockholm videos and other tidbits for "world's wackiest car chases".

    Of course the black-box type implications of potential onboard video recording capability can't be underestimated either. Thermal imaging will make driving through the fog slightly easier as well, though I think we'll have to consider the safety implications of geeks at high-speed tweaking onboard surveillance to watch the road rather than actually watching it...

    --

    Indy Media Watch-Proctologist of the Internet

    1. Re:Ahhh onboard cameras by TykeClone · · Score: 1
      Thermal imaging will make driving through the fog slightly easier as well,

      Think deer at night - thermal imaging would be great to have especially at this time of year.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    2. Re:Ahhh onboard cameras by inflex · · Score: 1

      I think this was done years ago by Chrysler... one of their family-mover vans had it as an option.

      PLD.

    3. Re:Ahhh onboard cameras by TykeClone · · Score: 1
      Must have been rather pricey and uncommon then.

      A more satisfying option would be to have an automatic weapon that you can target deer with and take care of them before they take care of you :)

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    4. Re:Ahhh onboard cameras by HeyLaughingBoy · · Score: 1
      A more satisfying option would be to have an automatic weapon that you can target deer with and take care of them before they take care of you :)
      ...then cook the resulting dinner on your exhaust manifold on the way home :-)
  6. Usefulness by fembots · · Score: 4, Funny

    I can already see some uses of this technology.

    1. Sensor which alerts owners that their car tyre has been chalked (parking tickets).

    2. Sensor to trigger water spray to remove any chalk marks

    3. Monitor to checks all four wheels, when you feel/hear something weird, but don't want to stop your car.

    4. Monitor to checks if your skirts is trapped between the door and slapping on the tarmac going 100mph.

    5. Monitor to show your windscreen wiper spray tank level, so you know when to refill.

    1. Re:Usefulness by HeliosTrick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about number 6? 6. Playing high-speed driving games instead of actually driving. Actually though, your number 5 is already in existance. I had a '97 Pontiac Bonneville with a low spray tank level warning. I think with that much bandwidth though, there's no reason a car could be sensored out to the max. If only they'd toss on a mode so you could see what the check engine light really is...

    2. Re:Usefulness by fembots · · Score: 1, Funny

      I think my #5 is flawed. With that many sensors, the car could have sensed the low level of water in the tank, and proceeds to collect rain water, filter it and refill the tank automatically.

    3. Re:Usefulness by xenoandroid · · Score: 1

      Only if you live in a warm climate, wouldn't want washer fluid to freeze.

    4. Re:Usefulness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually #3 is already long available as an optional aftermarket part. And as for #5, every car has that, doesnt show the exact level, but tells you when its low, i think its quite a sufficient piece of information for *wiper fluid*.

    5. Re:Usefulness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My car from 1988 already has a windshield washer fluid light.

    6. Re:Usefulness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Expensive european cars such as the higher models of BMW, Benz, Audi already have indicators of what is exactly broken, instead of the simple Check Engine Light. Decent code readers cost around $120. However, AutoZone rent them out for free.

    7. Re:Usefulness by linuxkrn · · Score: 1

      Many automobiles have "displays" where it tells you what is wrong instead of a ligh. Such as a Jeep Grand Cherokee. It will display on a LED display (text) that your fluids are low. While this sounds great, when the sensors go bad you are bombarded by a invalid warning until you get them repaired. Since there are a LOT of sensors this can be expensive. They also have low tire sensors on some automobiles as well.

      Example: http://www.wjjeeps.com/evic1.jpg

    8. Re:Usefulness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2002+ Audis and VWs have enhanced internal networks, and can actually do diagnostics while the car is moving. Of course, they don't use optical cable, but who gives a rats ass? It seems like Nissan is more interested in stupid bells and whistles than in reengineering their engine to allow for a more robust management system. 7 video cameras? DVD players? These are aftermarket items that any geek with enough cash can put on any car. A car that is aware of its electrical and mechanical systems, and can perform real time diagnosis - that's a bit more valuable, and almost impossible to implement on the aftermarket side.

    9. Re:Usefulness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >5. Monitor to show your windscreen wiper spray tank level, so
      >you know when to refill.

      My Volvo from '88 has this.

      Next...

    10. Re:Usefulness by 74nova · · Score: 1

      5. Monitor to show your windscreen wiper spray tank level, so you know when to refill.

      shoot, my 83 bmw 528e had that as well as a brake lining warning light

      --
      use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
    11. Re:Usefulness by OzzyRulez · · Score: 1

      Since the check engine light is also used to trick you into thinking something is wrong (thus you take your car to the dealer, they replace this and that for no reason whatsoever, reset the light, and bill you), I doubt you'll ever see that.

  7. It's about time by SpermanHerman · · Score: 0

    Hopefully more car and truck manufacturers will start incorporating better technology within their vehicles. I bought a 2003 honda accord with voice recognition and a sweet gps touch screen. Bring on the technology!!!

  8. 400 Mbps by Planky · · Score: 4, Funny
    The multimedia capabilities are made possible by the adoption of a high-speed 1394 optical fiber network communications system which allows a data transmission rate of 400 Mbps (mega- bites per second).
    Thats some super speedy eating :D
    1. Re:400 Mbps by dbCooper0 · · Score: 1
      Eye saw that two, an was gung to pint out the eras in the statehood, but I sea you half all ruddy beet me two it.

      Good Jibe. Too me, better luck next thyme.

      Eff their were no such dings as hypo-Graflex eras, wheat oils wood wee be abel two polk fawn at hear on Dash-Dot? ;-))

      --
      db
      Cig:
      ôô
      /`
  9. sweeet by bLindmOnkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I love the idea of multimedia in the car, but just one problem:

    "The prototype is equipped with 7 cameras on the body and a 12-inch LCD monitor in the front"

    Wouldn't this be more than a little bit distracting for the driver? I mean, what's more interesting, watching the red light change green or watching neo take the red pill?

    1. Re:sweeet by fembots · · Score: 1

      Maybe the "front" means the front of the car, ie the car you're following can see the message you try to tell him, like "Move over you #$@#$", saving you from showing your fingers.

      Or, if the LCD is fitted in front of the driver, maybe the driver can watch the red light change green through the LCD...

    2. Re:sweeet by Planky · · Score: 1

      I somehow doubt they would let you play dvd's/movies on the drivers lcd screen. It wouldn't even be let on the road if it allowed drivers to do that.

    3. Re:sweeet by ryanvm · · Score: 1, Funny

      I mean, what's more interesting, watching the red light change green or watching Neo take the red pill?

      Watching the red light.

    4. Re:sweeet by LostCluster · · Score: 1

      I think the idea would be to replace the entire in-dash display console with an LCD monitor that replicates the speedometer and odometer, but can also replace the non-descriptive "Check Engine" light with a scrolling message that gives exact information about the sensed problem instead of requiring somebody with a special chip-reader tool to extract that error message.

    5. Re:sweeet by Judg3 · · Score: 1

      but can also replace the non-descriptive "Check Engine" light with a scrolling message that gives exact information about the sensed problem instead of requiring somebody with a special chip-reader tool to extract that error message.

      There's a big reason WHY there is only a check engine light and not a full diagnostic output - because vehicles aren't as smart as you think they are and are often wrong.

      Here's a common example of what I mean..
      You get a 'check engine' light and a code scanner says your oxygen sensor is bad. You replace said oxygen sensor, same thing happens. Repeat 2-3 times until you finally take it to the mechanic to have the leaking throtle-body gasket replaced.

      See, in that example, the O2 sensor keeps saying "There's to much oxygen in this exhaust, cut back!". So the engine says "Ok, here's a little less o2.". O2 sensor STILL says "TO MUCH O2 - CUT BACK!". The engine goes "Ok" again, and reduces the air a bit more.

      Now, after awhile, the engine is basically going to assume that the O2 sensor MUST be broken because all it's done is ask for less air, and I can't give it any less then I'm doing now. So it ignores the O2 sensor, uses a stored 'profile', and pops a code.

      So you see, if you give out all the diagnostic info to the driver and the replace the part the car says is wrong, they'd start to think their automaker is a POS that can't design a system well.

      Those of us who understand all the above, and know to go to AutoZone to rent a free code reader, can properly fix it without blindly swapping parts.

      --
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  10. GTA by Thomas+Henden · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now, if you can get some more of these cars and play networked GTA with your friends...

    1. Re:GTA by Stevyn · · Score: 0

      Get LoJack!

    2. Re:GTA by 74nova · · Score: 1

      what if you could get the car to simply act as a controller for the game whilst in park and turned off? talk about a realistic wheel/brake/clutch controller. an expensive one, perhaps, but the the drives around when your not using it for playing GTA, after all.

      --
      use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
  11. Cable Weight by mod_critical · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wow, they're bragging up the reduction of weight of a wiring harness in a car. That's just awesome. Holy crap don't want to go over GVWR in the Nissan with a copper cabling system. Pardon me while I go shopping for light weight optical camping gear as not to kill my gas milage.

    1. Re:Cable Weight by BWJones · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually......the typical weight of an automotive wiring harness is around 50 lbs which absolutely does impact your milage and has been an issue for automotive manufacturers for a number of years particularly with increasing fuel economy standards that will be going in place over the next few years. Every little bit helps.

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    2. Re:Cable Weight by streak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, wiring harnesses are pretty damn heavy.
      I know that a wiring harness of a Cadillac Escalade weighs in at somewhere around 100-110lbs for the complete harness.

      Reducing weight is a big deal for automakers.

    3. Re:Cable Weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The general rule of thumb is 1 MPG for every 100 lbs. This would boost fuel economy by about .5 MPG.

    4. Re:Cable Weight by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Wiring harnesses are heavy, expensive and difficult to install and maintain. If this can make a significant weight and complexity reduction, it may well be more than worth the added upfront cost.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    5. Re:Cable Weight by BWJones · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The general rule of thumb is 1 MPG for every 100 lbs. This would boost fuel economy by about .5 MPG.

      Don't think that's a big deal then eh? OK then. .5 MPG here factored in with 150 thousand miles over the life of a car factored in with gas at $2.00 US per gallon would save you something like 70 thousand dollars over the life of the car.......is that right? Whoa......Actually, I never thought about it in those terms, but even if it saved me $5 thousand dollars, it would be worth it.

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    6. Re:Cable Weight by pchan- · · Score: 3, Interesting

      before in car networks, when you had to run a cable from the driver-side window switch to every window in the car, vehicles had somewhere near 20 miles (!) of cables inside. today, class two networks, such as CAN, MOST, and this firewire thing, have taken over alot of the functionality, replacing dumb control wires with protocol messages and microcontrollers. did you know that in a modern high end gm vehicle, and similarly in a mercedes, you can now control every non-critical component (windows, headlights, air conditioner, wipers, radio, ...) from a single lan? MOST even carries audio data from your CD changer over the same network. we're talking literally hundreds of pounds saved, especially in large and feature-full vehicles.

    7. Re:Cable Weight by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But what is the weight of 7 cameras and two LCD monitors? I'm guessing if the drivers can show 4 feeds at once, its probably not a 4 inch LCD.. and the boxes to mux the video feeds..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    8. Re:Cable Weight by Zackbass · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's not right. Let's try it with some example numbers. Say we get 20mpg. Over 150000 miles with $2 gas that's 150000/20*2=$15000 in gas. Now we get 0.5 extra mpg, so it becomes 150000/20.5*2=$14634. I think you calculated the cost of running a car that gets 0.5mpg. You can't even pin that on an H1. :P

      --
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    9. Re:Cable Weight by BWJones · · Score: 1

      Wiring harnesses are heavy, expensive and difficult to install and maintain. If this can make a significant weight and complexity reduction, it may well be more than worth the added upfront cost.

      Indeed. Even on the old cars with simple wiring harnesses I worked on as a mechanic during college, there could be significant problems. One of the cars I maintained was a 1969 Lamborghini Miura and tracking down electrical problems in that thing was a monster job. And don't even get me going on the early British cars with the Lucas electrics.....

      True story: During a drive down a local canyon with the owner of one of the British cars I maintained I smelled smoke. "Don't worry" the owner says "It always smells like that". A couple miles later I say "You know, I really think something is burning" to which he replies "Nah, it's just......" Poof!. Smoke and flames lick up underneath the hood and we go screeching most inelegantly off the side of the road just in time to extinguish the flames.

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    10. Re:Cable Weight by BWJones · · Score: 1

      Yep, you are right. That is what I get for typing without thinking. Sometimes I marvel at the fact that I made it through Calculus in high school and partial differentials in college. .

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    11. Re:Cable Weight by kayen_telva · · Score: 1

      holy cow your math is wrong.
      lets say i get 25 mpg = 6000 fillups x 2$ = 12000
      ok, now I get 25.5 mpg = 5882 fillups x 2$ = 11764
      a grand savings of $236

    12. Re:Cable Weight by JanneM · · Score: 1, Funny

      And don't even get me going on the early British cars with the Lucas electrics.....

      Ahh, Lucas - inventor of the electric darkness.

      Reminds me of the old joke of why the Brits don't have a computer industry? They have yet to figure out a way to make a CPU leak oil.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    13. Re:Cable Weight by mod_critical · · Score: 1

      Oh well, yes, they are quite weighty. However, I'm certain you are talking about a wiring harness for the whole car's electronics system, not just the video system. I suppose that maybe there is a large enough impact if they are mentioning it in the article, it is just too devoid of details as to how fiber is going to make a significant weight difference over copper.

    14. Re:Cable Weight by theonetruekeebler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The weight savings are significant, as are the savings in cost of assembly and maintenance. Not just the 75 pounds of copper wire you don't have to carry around, but that you don't have to route, don't have to design and build large enough channels to let pass, don't have to pay a troubleshooter $50/hour to sort through looking for the white wire with the blue dotted stripe and for God's sake not the white wire with the blue dashed stripe. Wiring harnesses are a nightmare. The wires are incredibly thin and fragile, and modern car that has been in a serious but non-totalling accident will probably have electrical problems all its life, due to damage to the harness.

      Even on a modern motorcycle, it can get ugly. I've had to replace the harness on a 1999 BMW motorcycle, where it weighed almost 25 pounds and required the removal of every single body panel and parts of the rear subframe to get to parts of it. It was rated as a ten hour job for a skilled mechanic.

      Compare this to the wiring system on a 2005 BMW K1200S, where the wiring harness is replaced by a four wire cable that run everywhere: two wires for power and two for data. Each section of the bike, like the instrument cluster, has a box in it that reads the signal and routes the power where it needs to be. The whole system weighs 6 pounds, and a 19 pound weight savings on a motorcycle is significant.

      An on-vehicle LAN solves a hell of a lot of problems, and IEEE 1394, with its prioritization protocols and huge bandwidth, is a great idea.

      --
      This is not my sandwich.
    15. Re:Cable Weight by sshack · · Score: 1, Funny

      With the way the american public is maybe they should start giving out free jenny craig memberships with every car sold then?

    16. Re:Cable Weight by nolife · · Score: 1

      Not only a math error, the 50lb removal of wires has to be replaced with something. There was no mention anywhere in the article of this concept replacing an existing wiring harness. In a car, you have wires for signaling, and wires for power. The wires for power delivery are not something you can remove, your headlights require a certain amount of amperage and there is no other way to get it there without an adequate copper wire. I guess in theory you could run several +12v wires around the car and provide power capability in series to everything that needs it. You would also need some type of data bus to each electrical or electronic component or modulate a signal down the same power wires with every device having an electronic reciever and power switching capability to handle the load. Kind of like an X10 system for the car. When you hit the brakes, the brake pedal electronic transmitter sends out code 01011001 down the line, any recieving device programmed to respond with 01011001 passes power from its power bus to the device it controls like the left, right and center brake light. How much weight are you going to save here if any with a car like that?

      --
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    17. Re:Cable Weight by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The question I would like to ask is what percentage of that weight is insulation? Yes the copper weighs more for a given quantity but there's more insulation than wire. Autos are going 48V and that means that the insulation will be more important than ever to prevent arcing. Perhaps a more durable sheathing will be used so that we can have thinner insulation...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:Cable Weight by bob+beta · · Score: 1

      we're talking literally hundreds of pounds saved, especially in large and feature-full vehicles.

      Hmmm, so the big fat bloatmobiles in particular will benefit from somewhat of a savings in wiring weight. Hmmm. Now they can make the chassis a foot or two wider.

    19. Re:Cable Weight by thogard · · Score: 1

      I figure about 1/3 is connectors, 1/3 the wire and 1/3 the insulation.

      With fiber, the connectors weigh far more than most of the modern automotive ones, the insulation will be thicker to protect the fiber but the fiber its self will be way less than 1%.

      Most 12V systems have insulation rated at 400V so there won't be any change between the 12 and 48 v systems except the wires can go down a size or two.

      Saab used a CAN BUS like thing for a while but it turns out that extra electronics on the end of everything ended up costing more than just running the wire. Wire is cheap and well understood and easy to diagnose.

    20. Re:Cable Weight by YGingras · · Score: 2, Insightful
      the typical weight of an automotive wiring harness is around 50 lbs which absolutely does impact your milage
      A typical sedan weight more than 2500 lb, a typical SUV more than 4000. So half of 50 lb is less than one percent improvement. I think there is lot of places where they could trim the weight down more cost effectively.
    21. Re:Cable Weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He isn't joking. Look at most motorcycle wiring diagrams (and the wiring itself), they're a goddamn rat's nest / nightmare. Vehicle networks enable some really sweet simplicity and elegance.

    22. Re:Cable Weight by jimicus · · Score: 1

      You think you've got it bad? My car gets around 40-45 mpg - great! - but petrol costs around £3.80/gallon in the UK.

      Note that these are imperial rather than US gallons - Google tells me 1 US gallon = 0.832673844 Imperial gallons. Or around $8.35 per US gallon of fuel.

    23. Re:Cable Weight by hb253 · · Score: 1

      It must be a very vague general rule because I cannot confirm the effects of weight on mileage in my last two cars (a 1994 Eagle Vision TSi and now my 1998 Audi A6 Quattro).

      Whether its just me (about 210 pounds) or me and my family (wife and 2 kids, say 520 pounds total), the highway mileage on the Vision was always around 24-25 mpg, and about about 21-22 with the A6.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    24. Re:Cable Weight by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Another benefit would be that optical fiber is mostly immune to the extremely large noise issues in your average car; EMI becomes much less of a concern, at least in terms of the wires. Still have to worry about it on the boards, though.

      --

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    25. Re:Cable Weight by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      how fiber is going to make a significant weight difference over copper.

      Especially given that you can't replace all the wire in a car with fibre. Everything still needs to get power (the heaviest single chunk of wire in a car runs from the battery to the starter). All the various devices that are communicating via the fibre still need to get power from somewhere.
      And all the lights (sure, the dash indicators could be fibre based, I suppose) still need power.

      Sure, it's a cool application of technology, but much of that 50 pounds of wire in a car is for power, not for signalling.

      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
    26. Re:Cable Weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seem to recall reading that the Ducati 999 uses a CAN bus to send data between the computer (under the seat) and the front-end electrics, which includes the lights and instrument cluster in a compact unit.

    27. Re:Cable Weight by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      I guess in theory you could run several +12v wires around the car and provide power capability in series to everything that needs it. You would also need some type of data bus to each electrical or electronic component or modulate a signal down the same power wires with every device having an electronic reciever and power switching capability to handle the load.

      That's where things are going already. In some newer GM vehicles, everything that isn't a light bulb or a speaker is connected to generic power and an in-car LAN called the i-Bus (i for instrument). Components like gagues the in-dash display, the stereo, and the ECM are all on the i-Bus, and need far fewer direct cables run to them than in earlier models. The little chip that each device needs to participate on the i-Bus are way lighter than the wires that would have had to be run, and the relays would have been there anyway, just at the other end of the wire.

  12. Herf Gun vulnerability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Now I can really have fun zapping Nissans...with my /. inspired herf gun.

  13. Cars are dirty and vibrate by chaffed · · Score: 2, Informative

    The last time I checked optical cabling like niether virbration or dirt. So is this really a great application? BTW 1394... WHY? it makes some sense but seems slightly random as well.

    --
    What could possibly go wrong?
    1. Re:Cars are dirty and vibrate by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1394... WHY?

      Probably because the technology in supporting electronics and chipsets, not to mention programming knowledge, has been massively subsidized by the mainstream computing market. Going off and reinventing the wheel with their own transport system just isn't rational in such a case.

    2. Re:Cars are dirty and vibrate by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cars are also filled with all kinds of nasty electromagnetic fields, which copper cabling hates.

      Pick your poison.

      (also, if you use proper connectors, optical cabling doesn't mind vibration all that much)

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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  14. speaking of firewire and optical connections... by Tumbleweed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IEEE1394.b was supposedly capable of scaling to 3200mbps via optical connections, but I've not yet seen any such equipment (or even the 1600mbps variant) - anyone know what the poop is on >800mbps FW?

    1. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by smcavoy · · Score: 1

      I've used firewire 800 PCI cards and HDs.
      AFAIK 1394b is 800mbps over a 9 pin connection.
      1600 and 3200 would be 1394c and 1394d respectivly, if they were to follow the current scheme.
      I didn't realize it could be done over optical cable , I guess it's a very layerd protocol like ethernet.

    2. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      It is. FireWire is basically the transport layer. Above it is typically a SCSI command set, used to talk to the disk drives that are typically used on FireWire. Instead of SCSI, you could have IP -- and IP over FireWire is a legitimate protocol, supported by Windows XP and Mac OS X (at least the latest versions).

      It's actually kinda interesting where SCSI is turning up these days. FireWire; Fibre Channel; ... it's no longer just the old parallel protocol from days gone by. Says something about the design of the command set, it does.

    3. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by mrklin · · Score: 1

      I do not have any additional insights on >800mbps FW but a major reason why that has yet to be developed for commercial use is even the fastest HD array cannot supply data at 3200 mbps (excluding whatever the military is up to in their secret lab).

    4. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      The initial specs for 1394b, as I mentioned in my first post, said it was to scale to 1600 & 3200 (with 3200 being optical-only); I've just not seen anyone implement the higher speeds yet. These speeds have nothing to do with any 1394c or d (of which I've never heard any mention).

    5. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      3200mbps = 400 MB/s. I'm gonna get a nice high-end SCSI array could hit that, no? I could be wrong.

      The other advantage to the optical FW spec was extended cable lengths over non-optical connections.

      I was thinking it would make a pretty nifty network connection, especially for clusters.

    6. Re:speaking of firewire and optical connections... by dsouth · · Score: 1
      You need to get a better storage vendor.

      LSI, DataDirectNetworks, and others all have array systems that can push more than 320MBps (note the big B). I've got filesystems running on six year old SGI hardware that can push more than that to between a single file and a single execution thread. [To be exact, the system can do around 620 MBps over 8 fc1 loops all hooked into the same set of 10 jbod enclosures.]

      A single fibrechannel2 interface runs at around 2000 mbps. Both the vendors above produce controllers that can saturate four client side interfaces (~8000 Mbps) and in both cases the limiting factor is the controller and fibre, not the disks. [And in fact both vendors allow you to hook twin controllers to the jbods in order to double the bandwidth.]

      There are probably other vendors as well, but I've worked with systems from the two I mentioned and can categorically state that the performance is better than 3200Mbps and has been for at least 4 years.

  15. optical? by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 1

    when did firewire go optical?
    re: High-speed IEEE 1394 optical fiber networks...

    --
    If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
    1. Re:optical? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when did firewire go optical?

      2003.

      (Sorry about the foreign link. They seem to have removed apple.com/firewire/ recently, and redirected it to the developer page.)

    2. Re:optical? by flmngbrd · · Score: 0

      i don't see anything about optical...

    3. Re:optical? by simcop2387 · · Score: 2, Informative

      read more

      Twenty times as far

      FireWire 400 delivers data over cables of up to 4.5 metres in length. Using professional-grade glass optical fibre, FireWire 800 can burst data across 100 metre cables.

  16. 4 images? been there, done that... by Karma+Sucks · · Score: 2, Funny

    Knight Rider, anybody?

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    (Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
    1. Re:4 images? been there, done that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but I bet those four images are from boring angles, showing stuff could be seen just as well from the car windows anyway. KITT was a lot more advanced since it could show images from many different angles, even pictures that looked like they were filmed from a helicopter alongside the road! Try to do that with a puny Nissan!

  17. $2 says... by Indy+Media+Watch · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...You will get moderated down instead.

    --

    Indy Media Watch-Proctologist of the Internet

  18. Re:You forgot one by DigitalHammer · · Score: 1, Funny

    6. Watch pr0n while driving. Err...on second thought, maybe in-car pr0n wouldnt be a such a great idea. It'd cause insurance premiums to skyrocket, because male drivers' hands sure wouldnt be on the steering wheel. ;)

  19. Reality check people... by Indy+Media+Watch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Before we get too excited about weight reductions, increased technology or bragging rights, let's remember something.

    Air-conditioning, power-steering and even ABS still aren't standard despite costing next to nothing at build time and being about as essential as you could get.

    Manufacturers need to cripple cheaper cars to somehow justify the extra $100k plus you can spend on higher-end models. Otherwise people start saying why does this car cost twice as much when it isn't twice the car?

    I suspect it will be a long time before we see this sort of thing in wide use.

    --

    Indy Media Watch-Proctologist of the Internet

    1. Re:Reality check people... by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      Air-conditioning, power-steering and even ABS still aren't standard despite costing next to nothing at build time

      While it's incredibly dubious that they cost "next to nothing", they do cost something once the car drives off the lot - air conditioning, for instance, is probably the number 1 support issue in most vehicles, and under warranty those support issues add up to thousands of dollars for the manufacturer.

      Manufacturers need to cripple cheaper cars to somehow...

      So it's all a big collusion? Why doesn't a company like Kia stick all of this great stuff in their $9,000 car and competely own the market, instead of marketing an empty shell with minimal amenities. Right...because those things cost money.

      Of course the margins increase on more expensive cars (and the margins on luxury SUVs are massive), but the idea that it's all just a big conspiracy is ludicrous - the car companies are locked in a very tight competition and want to kill each other, and it's not just coincidence that a Honda Civic is similarly equipped to a Hyundai Elantra and a Pontiac Sunfire.

    2. Re:Reality check people... by NSash · · Score: 1

      Air-conditioning, power-steering and even ABS still aren't standard despite costing next to nothing at build time and being about as essential as you could get.

      They aren't? This might vary from country to country; I understand that in the UK, for example, most cars have standard transmissions and an automatic transmission is a minor luxury feature.

    3. Re:Reality check people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, he didn't say anything about transmissions...

    4. Re:Reality check people... by Indy+Media+Watch · · Score: 1

      I never said it was a conspiracy, but the consumers have been screwed.

      I know when Lexus was introduced, they killed off the top-line Toyotas because the Lexus was twice the price and simply not worth it over the high-end Toyota badged cars.

      --

      Indy Media Watch-Proctologist of the Internet

    5. Re:Reality check people... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      Incidentally, DaimlerChrysler's ugly little Smart car is coming to the US and has as ABS as a standard feature, but does not offer power steering and A/C standard. However, most people do not need either; power steering is unnecessary in a car this small and A/C is by far not the problem in most places - usually it's the heater you need to stay alive. In the UK the base model costs about the equivalent of US$10,000, so I suspect a model with P/S and A/C will probably be about $1100. More important than those features are the standard traction control and driver and passenger airbags, and the fact that it gets 60 MPG. According to MSN both 2 and 4 seat models are coming to the US, but Zap only talks about the 2 seater.

      Most manufacturers don't have any cars over $100k, let alone two similar cars which have prices $100k apart. No Japanese automaker sells a car which costs more than US$85k (Honda NSX) and only one US Domestic automaker has a vehicle over $100k (Ford GT), not counting limited-run manufacturers like Shelby and Saleen. The two american production cars which were arguably closest together until one of them recently dropped off the map were the Chevrolet Camaro and the Chevrolet Corvette. They used the same engine, but the Camaro's powerplant was detuned so that the Corvette could outrun it - perhaps this is what you were talking about? However, the Corvette also has a double wishbone rear suspension instead of the Camaro's live axle, and the price difference was only $20,000 or so (in extreme cases) between the C5 corvette and the Camaro SS with the same powerplant.

      Now, Mercedes-Benz does have AMG models which are about US$100,000 more than the base model, but they are practically a different car. Everything that can be changed without it literally being a different car has been changed; Engine, transmission, wheels, interior, even the available paint colors in some cases.

      Or, maybe you're talking about how some cars cost more than others; it's not just about capabilities, it's about a mystique and that has nothing to do with crippling some cars and making others great. Sometimes, it IS about capabilities, and the fact is that you can't make a production car as cheap as a ford focus that can outrun a ferrari enzo, no matter how hard you wish. But, you didn't specify nor give examples, so it's hard to me to say just what you mean, when you didn't bother.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Reality check people... by ePhil_One · · Score: 1
      I understand that in the UK, for example, most cars have standard transmissions and an automatic transmission is a minor luxury feature.

      Whereas here in the US, I had to hunt and wait to find my G35 6MT Sedan, then pay a premium over the standard Auto equipped car (worth every penny). Most inspired line, when talking to my salesman (who actually remembers me bitching about Infiniti delaying the stick shift cars to speed the Coupe along):

      SALESMAN: You know, these six-speeds are hard to come by. They sell as soon as they hit the lot.
      ME: Why don't you order more of them, then?
      SALESMAN: Because nobody wants a manual transmission

      Huh? Still, this beats the Lincoln dealership, who insisted I buy the LS manual sight unseen, if I didn't like the car I could "refuse delivery". Six dealerships gave me that answer, the closest I ever came to a test drive was a used one that sold within 4 hours of trade in. But I'm sure this will be used extensively to show Americans don't like manual transmission, and we need these horrific auto-shifting SMT transmissions (curse you BMW! Manuals are about more than selecting what gear you are in! Otherwise I'd be happy with those infernal auto-sticks)

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    7. Re:Reality check people... by F'Nok · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe it's different there...

      You'd be hard pressed to see a new car here in Australia that doesn't have air conditioning.

      For that matter, ABS is on almost all (if not all) new cars, and I don't think I've see a new car in the last 5 years without power steering as standard.

      Either it's different there (and you guys get ripped off) or you're not too in touch. :)

    8. Re:Reality check people... by thogard · · Score: 1

      Must be nice to buy cars in the US market. In Australia where the car prices are much better than the UK, a Ford Mustang will set you about about AU$75k (US$56k) and a base Saab is in about the same range.

      As far as A/C not being needed, I disagree. There are places where working A/C should be requireed just to cut down on road rage. That includes everywhere that has hot summers.

    9. Re:Reality check people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's indeed what happened, the consumers were not screwed, the consumers spoke. You see, there is this thing called supply and demand, and particularily in the automobile market, you can't synthesize it. You know what a low margin business it is right? Very cutthroat!

    10. Re:Reality check people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not in touch, you have to hunt for bargain-basement cars that don't have those things to save 1000 bucks. Your typical entry level Hondas, Nissans, and Chevy's all have those things. Models that cost "100K more" almost exclusively do so because they have 500 HP engines, not because they have air conditioning. Sure, the "luxury" name has something to do with it, but people aren't buying expensive cars for ABS, they are doing it either for 'status' for because they like driving really fast.

    11. Re:Reality check people... by dustman · · Score: 1

      Manufacturers need to cripple cheaper cars to somehow justify the extra $100k plus you can spend on higher-end models.

      Basically, the free market takes care of this. It can take time, as the big boys who have a sort of implicit oligopoly / price fixing trust try to fight off the smaller guys, but it will almost always happen. (The cases where it doesn't are "natural monopolies" and government-granted monopolies (like cable companies, etc)).

      Your kind of thinking ("Manufacturers need to cripple cheap cars") will work in the short term. Over the long term, those manufacturers adopting this tactic will lose when someone else realizes "hey, I can build a better car than this for 60% of the price".

      Witness the US auto industry getting eaten alive by the Japanese in the 70s and 80s.

    12. Re:Reality check people... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm looking forward to sequential manual transmissions becoming more prevalent. They shift faster and with proper computer control, smoothly every time. My only concern is being able to double-shift, which no doubt will become a performance option. It's not that I don't like my five speed (never driven a six) but let's face it, race cars use sequential transmissions for a reason. Boy, do I wish I could get me a G35 sport coupe, though :) Right now I have a 240SX, and there is a six speed manual available, but it costs more than buying the engine I plan to swap in... And demands a higher-geared rear end to match it, which means spending more money.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Reality check people... by hb253 · · Score: 1

      I'm curious, what top line models were killed off?

      From what I remember, the only reason the Lexus nameplate exists is because they didn't think people would be willing to pay for an expensive "Toyota." There were no Toyota's at the price level of the first LS400.

      The same goes for Nissan/Infiniti and Honda/Acura.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    14. Re:Reality check people... by hb253 · · Score: 0

      Do you mean double-clutch or skip a gear when upshifting or downshifting?

      Unfortunately, it seems the trend is to take control away from the driver.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    15. Re:Reality check people... by hb253 · · Score: 1

      Actually, for the US market, Smart will be importing a Smart SUV http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id =30&article_id=8033&page_number=1 . Only Canada will get the micro car.

      The Smart car is not designed for the US market and would never meet Federal regulatory requirements.

      I don't know if you're from the US, but even in NJ, AC sure is nice to have if you like being dry and comfortable while driving in the summer.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    16. Re:Reality check people... by cbeaudry · · Score: 1

      Sequential transmissions for the general public are nothing like sequential transmissions with a DogBox and straight cut gears found in race cars.

      If they where, it WOULD be a big deal.... but it isnt. Your right though, seems they are trying to take control away from the driver :(

      Oh and also the Silvia S15's 6speed transmission is weaker than the previous 5speed. It does have a cool factore, but definately not worth the money.

    17. Re:Reality check people... by frinkster · · Score: 1

      If I'm not mistaken, Toyota added the Avalon to their lineup after Lexus was started.

    18. Re:Reality check people... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, I didn't say AC wouldn't be nicE - it's nice to have in California (where I live) in the summer, too. Having gone through two seasons with busted AC, however, I learned to live without it, and so can anyone who isn't elderly or infirm. (Hell, I even have asthma, the heat is not wonderful for me either.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:Reality check people... by HeyLaughingBoy · · Score: 1
      Manuals are about more than selecting what gear you are in

      Like what? I'm serious; I've never driven a car with SMT. All but one of my vehicles has been a stick shift, and I now drive a 6-speed 350Z as my "non-winter vehicle."
      I have no idea what you mean by that statement: the point of a gearbox, manual or auto, *is* to select the gear you're in.

      ps:
      I'm guessing you live in a warm-weather state. Here in MN, the 350Zs and G35s were selling at dealer invoice at the end of summer cause, like the saleman said, "nobody buys a sports car for Minnesota winters :-)"
    20. Re:Reality check people... by HeyLaughingBoy · · Score: 1
      the engine I plan to swap in

      What engine is that? I have a 350Z and I'm already salivating over some of the Stillen stuff and trying to figure out how I could justify it without my wife having a heart attack :-)
    21. Re:Reality check people... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm planning to drop in the CA18DET from the '89/'90 180SX. You can pick up a whole clip for about $1200-1500, which provides you with the whole harness, and is probably the easiest way to go. It's 180hp stock, good to over 300hp (my target) on stock internals. Direct-actuated valves, coil on plug... Talk about being ahead of its time. Of course, it represents a significant loss in low-end torque as compared to my KA24E, but it's got considerably more horsepower and revs to eight grand instead of my KA's paltry 6400.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  20. Get it to drive itself by LordRPI · · Score: 1

    You know, I'd love to hook up a digital video camera to that 1394 port and pray that the car can use it as its eyes and drive for me :)

    1. Re:Get it to drive itself by tasinet · · Score: 1

      Why don't you take a cab with the money the digital video camera costs and let the paki drive you? :)

  21. No shame in saying "FireWire", dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guarantee you more people know it as FireWire than know it as 1394.

    1. Re:No shame in saying "FireWire", dumbass by belg4mit · · Score: 2, Informative

      FirewWire is trademarked by Apple.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    2. Re:No shame in saying "FireWire", dumbass by the_proton · · Score: 5, Informative

      FirewWire is trademarked by Apple.

      And Apple licensed it to the 1394 Trade Association in May 2002:
      http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/may/29firewir eTA.html

      - proton

    3. Re:No shame in saying "FireWire", dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if it's a trademark that doesn't mean the poster couldn't have said "FireWire" instead of "IEEE 1394". What's apple going to do, track him down and sue him for illegal use of their mark? On what grounds, precisely?

  22. Camera in the back seat? by Matey-O · · Score: 1

    Does this mean the Parents can see what trouble their kids are gettin into on their date via streaming video on tha Intarweb?

    --
    "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
  23. Like NFS by nxtr · · Score: 1

    Anybody playing racing games can sure know the usefulness of the bumper cam.

  24. backseat becky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Thanks to the in-vehicle IEEE 1394 LAN, which is capable of high-speed communications at 400Mbps via optical cable, the front and the rear seat monitors can display various information simultaneously, for example.


    Gives new meaning to the term "backseat driver".

    I'm getting an image in my mind of my mother-in-law grinning and rubbing her hands together.

  25. add 802.11 and youv've got something by multi-flavor-geek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This could be that lean mean war driving machine that I have been looking for! Not that I can afford a new car, or a slightly used car, or a moderatly beaten car (I am in the market for a severly beaten near the point of death car).

    Hell, who am I kidding, most of my vehicles have more electronic stuff in the stereo then they do in teh rest of the car.

    --
    Like arts? Like cheesy little Indie mags? Check out www.artwerkmag.com, and don't laugh at the bad coding please.
  26. ieee 1394 = firewire, right? by jxyama · · Score: 1

    ...so does iPod-cable equipped BMWs count?

  27. You cannot run a wiper motor over fiber... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since the majority of weight is likely not from the control cabling, (though admittedly significant) running throughout the vehicle, but the high current buses for which there is no substitute for heavy copper conductors. Intelligent, local switching cannot eliminate this except in the most obvious cases.

    "Oops, no tailights at this time because I need to run the air conditioner clutch"; P=IE always and forever.

    They replace weight of copper with obfuscation and complexity, maintaining the aura of a sophisticated piece of machinery to justify a price and maintain a service centers and the American Way of Life; Automobiles and Monopolies.

  28. Maybe I'm unclear on the concept, but by unassimilatible · · Score: 1, Funny
    wouldn't this require a reeally long spool of wire to drive the car around?

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  29. Isn't... by Bug-Y2K · · Score: 3, Funny

    FireWire a BUS, not a car?

    sorry, couldn't resist.

  30. Damn, 0wned by a Sentra by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just a reminder, if you depend on physical security and have 1394 ports powered, any 1394 device can read your system's memory through DMA.

    Turn them off in the BIOS if this is an issue for you (the linked article suggest globs of epoxy...).

    Coming soon to a sensationalist news story near you.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  31. $3 says... by nuclear305 · · Score: 1, Funny

    It would be cheaper, easier, and more healthy to get the driver to lose 50lbs before slimming down the car with new wiring.

    1. Re:$3 says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I'm heavier at the moment, a year ago I weighed 165 lbs. I am about 6'0".

      I really don't think it would have been healthier for me to be 115.

    2. Re:$3 says... by NardofDoom · · Score: 1
      And how do we get people to lose 50 pounds? By walking or riding a bike, thus eliminating the need for most car trips, which are 3 miles or less.

      Of course, Nissan wouldn't want that, now would they...

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
  32. I want separate wiring by davidwr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When it comes to operational and safety components, I want things on their own subsystems. That means one set of wires for the brake lights, one set of wires for antilock brake control, one set of wires for the fuel tank level indicator, etc. etc.

    If something gets in the wiring, I'd rather it knock out half my electrical than all of it. I'd also like key systems to be isolated from non-key systems. If my headlights develop a short and the wires overheat and melt, I don't want the wires leading to my starter motor to melt too.

    Now, when it comes to entertainment, like radio, dvd player, etc., or comfort items, like climate control or the map lights, do whatever's cheapest to build, cheapest to repair, least likely to fail (bearing in mind that some wiring designs create single points of multiple failure).

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:I want separate wiring by TheTray · · Score: 1

      Well to be honest I disagree. The only things that need to be seperate that you mention would be the antilock brake control. The antilock brakes too are not such a big deal either so long as my real brakes don't go out. You do realize that cars existed for many year before these things and they stop well enough don't be a wuss put some effort into them. In atleast one case AL brakes put you in a worse position than you would be with regular brakes. Plus driving w/o lights(front or back) is very doable. I see it everyday with someone's old crappy car. Fuel tank level indicator, please. If my fuel tank indicator brakes for me nothing would change as I would get in fixed in short order in the mean time I can damn well tell when my truck is low on gas. So to sum up as long as my truck is functional enough to physically move and stop itself no big deal. In my world we have things called repair shops when something stops working I take it there and it gets fixed. My saftey in the trip to the repair shop is lower but that doesn't mean it's any guarruntee that something will happen. If we didn't do things that put us at risk we wouldn't leave the house, hell that's dangerous those things can burn down. The safest place would be in a plane or so the airlines say. Lets all just fly around, wait lets build a flying city.

      --
      -NiPs
    2. Re:I want separate wiring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The thing is, most of the jackasses on the road don't really know how to drive. Sure, they can navigate their minivan down the road--between the correct lines about 99% of the time--with no distractions... Take 5% away for each cellphone, lipstick, eyeliner, kid, and 50lbs of fat that they're trying to juggle, and it soon becoms apparent that the average person can't drive for shit.

      Their reaction time is laughable. They follow way too close, drive way too fast for their ability anc concentration level, and absolutely have a shit when even one drop of water, whatever it's form hits the pavement, and on top of that, they don't care if their car works, just as long as they get to wherever they're going in one piece. I hear far too many brakes squeeling, for instance. That's pretty important, I'd say.

      ABS is important in my part of the world. It dosen't ensure that these jackasses will stop in time, but it more or less gurantees that they're going to have at least a little control when they do slam on the brakes... And be assured, they do slam 'em, and especially when it's just a little too close for comfort.

      I swear. Drivers should be trained to race on go-karts before they ever touch something that weighs more than a thousand pounds.

  33. next step: diagnostisis by Verity_Crux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All this technology in the car and I still can't plug my laptop in and get the report as to why the check-engine light is on, and I still can't swap general parts with my other car. I assume there are marketing reasons for those issues, but isn't there some standards committee who could oppose the situation? Diagnostics software/hardware and interchangeable parts are some useful and well understood computer features, are they not?

    1. Re:next step: diagnostisis by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1
      All this technology in the car and I still can't plug my laptop in and get the report as to why the check-engine light is on

      Yes you can. I've saved about $500 in the last year using this.
      Diagnosed an intermittent misfire, a weird overheating problem, and checked out a potential used car buy.

      There are several other versions around, from $88 to over $500. However, you still need basic troubleshooting skills.

  34. Every little bit counts by Osty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As others have mentioned, saving weight anywhere possible is a Good Thing (tm) in a car. Ligher weight means a higher power to weight ratio, which means a faster car at the same horsepower (or better mileage, if you're into that sort of thing). Don't believe me? Take a look at the Porsche GT3 RS. They went so far in removing weight that the Porsche emblem on the hood is a sticker! Traditionally, it's a plastic or metal badge, but they went all out in removing as much weight as possible from the GT3 for the RS revision. BMW went so far with the M3 CSL that they replaced the floor of its trunk with cardboard. The floor pan in the C6 Corvette is made out of balsa wood sandwiched between thin layers of aluminum. Obviously these cars aren't really going for gas mileage, but the principles are the same. Besides, as we move more and more towards hybrid or all-electric vehicles, a 50 pound saving in wiring gear means that you have 50 more pounds available for batteries or other electricity storage mechanisms, thus adding extra range to the car because you're adding more power reserves without adding any more weight.

    The biggest hurdle here is not whether or not they can do it, but whether or not it gains acceptance. For example, Porsche has started using the MOST bus in recent model years for their audio equipment (they use Becker equipment, listed on that page), and it's difficult to find compatible aftermarket equipment. Firewire has the benefit of several years on the market already in various applications, so it's a well-known technology by now.

  35. Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weight. by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 5, Funny
    Digital cars will be a great thing. It's not just flying car stuff, but basic, useful improvements every geek would love:
    • Those big protrusions out the side of the car... you know, mirrors? Replace them with a pinhole sized camera in the high mounted brake light. Not only does it shave weight, but look at the air flow advantages.
    • Put all the LED's in some central part of the car and just pipe the light out to the headlights and tail lights. Switch the signals centrally, so you can use less bulbs (light all three brake lights with a single (plus backup) LED, a single signal light, etc...) The mounting for the lights in the back is then much lighter, and there is no need to route copper power wires back there. Reduced, power, reduced components, reduced weight.
    • Like the minivan rear-view cameras, improved visibility, no blind spots, given enough cameras.
    • Use infrared cameras to improve night vision (assuming HUD display instead of LCD in dash.)
    • The cameras are a prerequisite for the self-driving cars in the future (sensors for the computers)
    • All digital dashboard (series of LCD's for the whole instrument panel.) Then you can have three camera views while backing up. and see the speedometer when going forward. This will also make it cheaper to have "sport gauges" and can have dozens of other sensors that just don't fit into a normal dash, but only show up on the displays when they have something important to share. (oil pressure, oil volume, oil temperature, oil viscosity, tire pressure, tire temperature, brake fluid level, coolant level, coolant pressure) All of that could be made much more cheaply.
    • Instead of just "check engine" ... how about a dashboard that says: "um, excuse me, this is your engine, I'm running OK, but cylinder 4 has poor ignition, probably needs a new spark plug lead." or "Hi, you've cracked a cylinder head, kiss your wallet goodbye."
  36. It is "Special" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Actually it *is* a big leap forward in automotive electronics. Sure, fiber optics and serial transfer rates of 400Mbps is nothing new. But the PC and server markets usually adopt the latest and best technologies first. While other markets are subject to a "trickle" effect, adopting these technologies much more slowly.

    I can't say for foreign (non U.S. vehicles) but most domestic vehicles have network communication speeds of less than a hundred kilobits/second. The reality is, there is more than one computer in most vehicles and they do not run on the same network. Almost always running on different networks at different speeds and protocols.

    Multiple networks in an automobile is necessary due to current lack of bandwidth. It is unacceptable to have the steering wheel controls and OnStar chatter clogging the OBD II diagnostics. Things like sensors for collisions need to be able to trigger the airbags in time. A congested bus is no good for that. Only in recent years has effort been made to have faster, standardized, serial and unified networks in domestic automobiles.

    CAN, (car-area-network) is one of those technologies yet still much much slower than 1394. And such technologies as CAN have only shown up in recent years of domestic production vehicles.

    With the amount of bandwidth 1394 (let alone the standardization, oh wonderful standardization!) many more things are possible. Since everything would run off the same network, "theoretically" it would be cheaper to produce a car. Less wiring due to a serial network and less development for multiple protocols and isolated networks. (Though this savings will likely *not* be passed on to the customer.)

    This has huge implications for 3rd party development as well. Since a standardized physical layer is a big step, it will be easier to develop for the network. If you have ever installed a car stereo you know it's a pain in the ass and different for almost every vehicle.

    Imagine taking your head unit, plugging into 1394 and that's it. In this scenario the speaker system is also digital and also apart of the network - installation would be a breeze. Other things could happen, like your iPod communicating with your head unit. No longer will the BMW drivers feel they are superior. (Except they will still have a better car than most) In addition, all the fancy LCD screens on head units today could give you real time OBD information.

    Some cars have a sensor for when your gas cap is open but only show the "check engine light" or something similar. Well your stereo head unit could read these messages off the network and actually display in text "Gas cap is open stupid."

    I think this is great news. Other auto manufactures wanting to stay competitive (or merge) will follow suit. Things can only get better.

    I for one welcome our new high-bandwidth automobile network overlords.

    1. Re:It is "Special" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just automotives. Aeroplanes also have multiple networks. In fact, there's 5 of them in the engine I'm working on right now, and that doesn't even begin to account for the rest of the plane, just one jet engine. Several different protocols, all serving different purposes (though two are able to be translated amongst each other, these are just diagnostics protocols), with bus speeds between 32 and 115kbit/sec. I fear how complex the entire plane would be, and how many different networks there really are.. I never even thought about it much, I was just worried about my part.

      Unit testing is fun..

  37. A little out of date? by wrinkledshirt · · Score: 1, Funny

    Nissan Exhibits IEEE 1394-Compatible Car

    Hey, I'm all for retro, but what is IEEE doing trying to set specs for compatibility with the 14th century? We hadn't even harnessed electricity back-

    [GONG!]

    --

    --------
    Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...

  38. Sounds neat but.. by Magickcat · · Score: 1

    I use my rear vision and side mirrors instead.

    --

    Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.

  39. FIBER BREAKS! by cybercomm · · Score: 1

    Its all fun and games, but we all know that fiber cannot be bent more thant 30-45 degrees directly (but rather gradualy) and even then it has to be encased in some sort of polymer/plastic armor to protest it. But the best part comes when you take it to your redneck mechanic and he just yanks the cabe and breaks it in half, somehow i dont think you would be paying 2000$ to fusion weld the cable? Or better scenario is if one of the laser diodes fails (happens over time, it is a diode, after all) after 10 ish years? Can anyone say forced upgrade? BTW isnt Fiber sensitive to constant vibration?

    I know im going all negative, dont get me wrong, i see nothing in implimenting this, i simply believe that this should be thought out more, especially if youre forced to get new cables/comm units ONLY from Nissan (due to DMCA?).

    Yeah there may be some sp errors, im in a hurry, and its the content that matters :)

    --
    Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
  40. This has also been in the works for a while... by tejohnson · · Score: 1

    You can find the actual specifications involved here: http://www.ami-c.org/

  41. cool... by codergeek42 · · Score: 0

    400 miles/sec on the freeway. fun stuff.

    oh wait, wrong measurement....

  42. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by r3001 · · Score: 1

    I really hate to contradict the pervious post because it has some interesting ideas....none of which will actually make cars any safer, or for that matter easily maintained. The primary thing that people forget is that almost all crashes that occur are driver error. Having numerous camera's on your car will not prevent you from rear ending the guy in front of you. And as to the point about reduced maintainance remember that although you gotten rid of all that nasty copper wiring and those pesky air flow reducing mirrors (They'll rue the day they cost me .00001 of a gallon in fuel efficiency!) you now have to worry about repairing multiple camera's all of which involve high tech electronics. Oh and a final point, although it would be great to know what precisely is wrong with my car remember that in order to measure that you need a butt load of sensors, which themselves will weigh down the car (gasp!) further and require maintenance. Just because it's high tech doesn't mean it's a good idea. Simpler can be better.

  43. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by myov · · Score: 1

    Put all the LED's in some central part of the car and just pipe the light out to the headlights and tail lights. Switch the signals centrally, so you can use less bulbs (light all three brake lights with a single (plus backup) LED, a single signal light, etc...) The mounting for the lights in the back is then much lighter, and there is no need to route copper power wires back there. Reduced, power, reduced components, reduced weight.

    LED car lights are almost always clusters, because a single LED isn't bright enough.

    And, other than side markers/center brake light and some higher-end cars, LEDS aren't used much to start with.

    --
    I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
  44. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by ianjk · · Score: 1

    Instead of just "check engine" ... how about a dashboard that says: "um, excuse me, this is your engine, I'm running OK, but cylinder 4 has poor ignition, probably needs a new spark plug lead." or "Hi, you've cracked a cylinder head, kiss your wallet goodbye."


    never going to happen... they already have those devices (to some extent) at the service station for a reason.

  45. I think the point is... by djupedal · · Score: 1

    ...you can run optical to various points around the car, and then tap off it for whatever device you want, rather than dedicating a particular color/gauge wire, that needs decoding later.

    Want to make a base model SUX2008? One domelight slave assembly that grabs the optical harness. Want a HiLux SUX2008 instead? No problem - same harness, just tap in with 3 more domelight modules and a connection for a DVD unit and you're done.

  46. Re:$4 says... by mek2600 · · Score: 0

    Hahaha. The funniest joke is that you got modded -1 Flamebait.

  47. AC not "essential" by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I drove a car for a few years in Houston with no AC (in the summer thank you very much), and I got by. So I'll brook no talk about AC being an essential part of a car.

    ABS maybe (though I'm not even sure there), but not AC.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:AC not "essential" by BlackHorse · · Score: 1

      I find AC more of a safety feature for quick defogging of the windows. Silly reason to pay to get it, I know.

  48. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by _fuzz_ · · Score: 1

    Instead of just "check engine" ... how about a dashboard that says: "um, excuse me, this is your engine, I'm running OK, but cylinder 4 has poor ignition, probably needs a new spark plug lead."

    Most newer cars already do self-diagnosis, but there's no way the manufacturers will let the car tell the owner what's wrong. They want you to take it to the dealership so they can fix it.

    I bought the Honda service manual for my 2000 Prelude. It had instructions for shorting a connector which would cause the check engine light to flash. I could count the flashes and look it up in the manual. It would actually tell me which cylinder was having the problem and what the most likely causes were, just like your example.

    --
    47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
  49. Redundancy Management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Supposedly the 1394b protocol can reconfigure its bus if a node goes down and the bus is looped. Suppose you have a short in your system or a sensor goes out ... the vehicle could keep functioning with this reconfiguration utility. A new SAE standard was just approved specifying the Vehicle Systems protocol on top of the 1394 bus. 1394 is replacing the MIL-STD-1553B bus in the aerospace industry for its redundancy management features and high bandwidth, and can be found on the new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

  50. SNMP it by blankoboy · · Score: 1

    Now all we need is some SNMP OIDS and we're set =)

  51. Clippy's Revenge by Grey+Tomorrow · · Score: 2, Funny

    Instead of just "check engine" ... how about a dashboard that says: "um, excuse me, this is your engine, I'm running OK, but cylinder 4 has poor ignition, probably needs a new spark plug lead." or "Hi, you've cracked a cylinder head, kiss your wallet goodbye."

    I see you're are trying to drive your car. Would you like me to take over for you?

  52. Security by I7D · · Score: 0

    I got really pissed the first time I noticed a ding on my door from some other door. Maybe w/ a tivo type system w/ this car, I can finally get the plates of the car who dinged me, and have the 'accident' on tape.
    I didn't rtfa though and don't know if there are any cameras looking out 360 from the car.

    --
    Neil is that you? Yeah yeah, it's me... Neil...
  53. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by wimbor · · Score: 1

    Well, my VW Golf, rated as 'simple' car already has that... There are multiple CPU's inside the car and the motor management computer gives feedback about possible car problems via a LED-screen... I once had a broken air-intake-sensor and it caused the car to put itself in 'safe mode' limiting my speed to 90 kph and displaying a warning. Depending on the driving style and state of the engine, the maintenance sign is displayed at different mileages (max. 30.000km) and severe errors are marked with yellow (moderate) and red (severe) color codes. All warnings inform the driver what problem is occuring. The dealer can read out exactly what component failed with a special connector. Btw, all the dashboard IS digital, despite the analogue intrument panel, all the electronics steering that ARE digital. Analogue displays are more easy to read than digital onces (easier on the eye) and thus are mph and rpm displayed analogue, although the info is available digitally.

  54. Yeah Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...to about one-half the weight..."

    When will you people ever learn how to speak english?

  55. Re:Optical 1394 Can go much faster! by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    1394b is a significant enhancement to the basic 1394 specification that enables speed increases to 3.2 Gigabits/sec, supports distances of 100 meters on UTP-5, plastic optical fiber. (copper version is stuck at 800)

    http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/About/faq.htm#1 0

  56. Its the planet, stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok - $400 isn't a lot of money for the lifetime of the car.
    But if you are talking about using, say, 5% less fuel, then it might be worth it on an environmental level.
    Then again...what about the energy and environmental economics of metal wiring versus optical fiber and various optoelectronics.....

  57. Essential=safety by fantomas · · Score: 1

    I live in the UK. AC is a luxury item still sold on cars here because 95% of the year, you just don't need it. Different temperature /humidity range in green and rolling England from desert conditions in Australia/southern USA etc. "Essential" is what our agreed safety requirements are. I drive a 1965 Singer Gazelle and get on just fine without AC, ABS, no power steering, any computers and a total of two electrical fuses :-) I'd be sad but would accept if people said that a minimum safety requirement meant certain kinds of braking mechanism etc which meant I had to adapt or take my car off the road. But the call for comfort devices as essential, well, that's all relative I think. We can all find old photos of people trundling around severe conditions in open Land Rovers, Model T Fords, etc.

  58. Boycott Nissan! by reflector · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nissan Motors has been for many years trying to bully and harass a small business owner by the name of Mr. Nissan, who registered nissan.com for his computer company, before Nissan Motors had ever considered having a web presence.
    Nissan Motors was stupid and slow, but they felt that by paying enough money to lawyers to harass this small business owner, they could intimidate him into handing over what did not belong to them, the nissan.com domain.
    This is a well-known and unfortunate story, it's been featured on TechTV and other places, more info here:
    http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story. htm

    Even though my last car was a Nissan, I decided I won't be buying from them again after learning of their behavior.

    I urge you to boycott Nissan, and to write to Nissan motors exlaining to them that you don't support corporate thuggishness.

    1. Re:Boycott Nissan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.nissan.com/
      Go figure...

  59. firewire vs CAN (I'm curious) by tech49er · · Score: 1

    In-car networks are fine - they've been used for ages. CAN (controller area network) are used not just for non-critical systems but for all sorts of things like braking, gears and the rest, and this is what its designed for. I'm just wondering whether (as it seems above), 1394 is being used for all this too. CAN doesn't have the bandwidth for streaming video etc but do you want to put your life in the hands of a multimedia-protocol when you're bootin down the road (Not much use having Ally MacBeal playing as you're careering into a wall)?
    Or have I got this all wrong? I now that the CAN spec allows for flexibility in the physical network layer and upper layers? Is this a case of both standards being used but operating on different levels (doubtful though, since CAN imposes data-rate constraints)? Or is there two systems? The critical network and the frivolous network?
    Or is it just that 1394 matches CAN for reliability, stability, simplicity ...

    --
    "... always going forward 'cause we cant find reverse! "
    1. Re:firewire vs CAN (I'm curious) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most likely implementation would be two seperate networks. Some vehicles have 2-3 networks just for control. The fiber optic cabling systems also tend to not be rated for high temperature (under the hood) usage.

      Keep in mind that I don't work with MOST or 1394. I do use CAN and I would not want unknown controllers to be attached to the same CAN bus as my devices. Multimedia systems are most likely to have the customer want to attach their own device.

    2. Re:firewire vs CAN (I'm curious) by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Multiple networks. Even CAN defines specs for several different schemes, and GM (for one) advocates using multiple CAN networks in a single vehicle; a high speed network for safety-critical devices, a medium data rate network for entertainment systems, and a low data rate (single wire - the others are two wire) network for modules that only need to communicate a couple times per second. 1394 and CAN are not specs that can be mingled.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  60. No more windows by thisisauniqueid · · Score: 1

    The prototype is equipped with 7 cameras on the body and a 12-inch LCD monitor in the front and another in the rear seat area.
    You'll never need to look out the window again.

  61. ever spliced optical fibre? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    it doesn't work very well. you get a break in this cable anywhere along its length and you'll probably end up stripping out all fibre and replacing it all. it's very difficult to track down the break if you can't see it - even the specialist testing tools that bounce light off the break and measure time/distance are only accurate to 10 feet or so - not much use in a wiring loom hidden behind the dash.
    next time you have a fender bender you could end up rewiring your car...!

  62. Access tp onboard car computer by leon.gandalf · · Score: 0

    and here I thought a car manufacturer was opening up their onboard computer to the end user.... just another gimick rear view camera.

  63. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

    Give it a few years; within 10 years, I'm expecting the majority of car lights (including headlamps and taillamps) to be LED-based. The advantages are just way too many to resist; the only downside right now is cost (and, to a certain extent, white LED brightness when speaking of headlamps) and cost is dropping rapidly.

    That said, the idea is still dumb because the clusters of light-pipes would be more hassle than mounting the LEDs remotely and powering them; you don't need a single wire per LED, just 2 or 3 wires per cluster (depending on whether switching is local or remote). Light pipes would force you to require more LEDs (transmission losses), plus you do need to be able to run almost all lights simultaneously (both turn signals for hazards, taillamps for brake depression, headlamps for night... there're situations where all of the cars lights would need to be on at once) which means that you can't use less LEDs anyway.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
    (I read with sigs off.)
  64. Re:$4 says "sure, but..." by acariquara · · Score: 1

    ...does it run Linux?

    --
    Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
  65. Obligatory Swordfish Quote by jaavaaguru · · Score: 1

    Thanks to the in-vehicle IEEE 1394 LAN... the front and the rear seat monitors can display various information simultaneously

    "It has a DS-3 connection. We can access 7 different networks simultaneously."

  66. Durability? by boatboy · · Score: 1

    So, I'm no expert on optical fiber, but I know they used to be pretty fragile. I have spent enough time on vehicles' electrical systems to know that even thick copper stresses, cracks, and fails. Is there any concern that fiber may not be durable enough for a vehicle application?

  67. Optical Fiber... by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

    "The application of optical fiber also means that the weight of the cables can be reduced to about one-half the weight of a conventional wiring harness."

    They tried conductive fiber, but plastic doesn't conduct very well.

    WTF? Optical fiber? That's like noodle spaghetti.

  68. ITS definition by MormonBoy · · Score: 1

    ITS stands for Intelligent Transportation Systems, not Intelligent Transport Systems. There is a whole world of ITS that very few people know about. To learn more maybe the ./ers should visit http://www.itsa.org/, or better yet visit a company that does ITS for a living, http://www.iteris.com/. There is even a national architecture standard available for all to use when planning and developing an ITS project. Visit http://itsarch.iteris.com/itsarch/ to get more information.

    Enjoy. The roads of the future are ITS based products and deployments. Infact, has anyone seen those little camera in the intersections? That is ITS. Has anyone seen those neat like weather stations along the roadside? That is ITS. Has anyone used a toll road automated pass system? That is ITS. Has anyone seen a commercial vehicle drive past an open port-of-entry while others have to stop? That is ITS.

    The list goes on and on and on. Keep ./ing.
    Mormonboy

    1. Re:ITS definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, those ./ers should really check that out... us /.ers in the meantime...

  69. Re: Don't forget... by Llama_STi · · Score: 1

    monitor to view the goods of the passenger... ;)

  70. That mode does exist! by RedK · · Score: 1

    If only they'd toss on a mode so you could see what the check engine light really is...

    Most cars have this. OBD-1/OBD-2 Honda's have a service connector that you can jump which will result in the CEL flashing error code stored on the ECU. It's a 2 pin connector located above the ECU which rests behind the passenger side kick panel.

    Older Hondas have a led light on the ECU itself which flashes the code.

    --
    "Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
    Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
  71. Old news by Black+Perl · · Score: 1

    I had firewire in my 1985 Oldsmobile Cutlass. And I have the burn marks to prove it.

    --
    bp
  72. That would make Driver's Ed fun! by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Part 1: Racing on Go-carts
    Part 2: Safe driving on Go-Carts - remedial classes if you fail
    Part 3: How to drive a car

    --
    Quote of the day: Damn Karma Bonus, mod this overrated please

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  73. That's why it's illegal in California by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Here in Collie-Fornia, display screens like that in the front seat have been illegal since the beginning of the year. While much of the motivation was televisions and DVD players that can distract the driver, it's also illegal for the passenger in the front seat to be using a laptop.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  74. First LAN in a Car? 1993? by billstewart · · Score: 1

    When did you first see a LAN in a car? A friend of mine had one at San Diego Usenix 1993. He was working on portable wireless data-transmission technology, and the alpha version of the box was in his trunk, with the beta version in a portable computer (too big to really call a laptop) in the front seat, and a thinwire ethernet neatly hidden away between them. We were able to telnet to Bell Labs research from there (didn't have a login on that machine, so we just tried "berferd"...

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  75. Bandwidth throttling? by OzzyRulez · · Score: 1

    I can see it now; my brake lights flickering because I've got 15 torrents downloading.

  76. Gas mileage is an issue for automakers??? by Funny+Bong · · Score: 1

    To me, it seems like the car companies don't care that much about gas mileage. I read somewhere (I think it was in Adbusters) that the weight of the average new car has gone over 4000 lbs for the first time since the 1970s. To me this seems ridiculous, considering the increases in technology: aluminum alloys and plastic are replacing cast iron and steel, unibodies are replacing full frames, and rack-and-pinion steering systems are replacing recirculating-ball systems. Cars today are generally not much more fuel-efficient than they used to be; here is an example. Again, there have been many drastic improvements in technology: lighter materials, improved aerodynamics, computer-controlled fuel injection instead of carburetors. But somehow, regardless of how much technology they introduce, cars in the US still seem to mostly get between around 20 and 30 mpg. The Japanese companies are making some improvement, but most American cars don't seem much better than they were 50 years ago. I am really not that excited about the new hybrid cars; what good would new technology do if the car companies clearly aren't making good use of the technology they already have? I think that most of the early hybrid cars will be more efficient, then the later ones will only get about 30 mpg for some reason, and they will keep making them that way until we have a serious oil crisis.

  77. Re:Digital Cars... It's more than just cable weigh by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 1
    I see it as a lot safer. Any time you reduce the amount of head movement required to navigate, you are going to increase the driver's situational awareness.


    If the dash board includes all the mirrors (multi-function screens), then the driver has to look in a lot fewer directions. Put the car in reverse and the three in dash screens show: left, middle and right rear views. All the views can be seen at once, rather than having to crane the head in different directions to see them all. Many older people especially have difficulty with the mobility required to safely back up a vehicle.


    If you are looking in your rear view mirror in order to pass, or because or an interesting event is occurring there (event left as an excercise to the reader :-) then the closer the angle of the head is to looking at the windshield, the more likely you are to see the car you are about to rear-end.


    The dash in the Toyota Echo was moved to the centreline in order to reduce the distance the eyes have to move to view the instruments. You can put the mirror displays wherever makes the most sense. Could even be in a HUD on the windshield, or There might be a whole new meaning to driving glasses, with important information projected on the screen there, regardless of where you are looking.


    As for the parts being expensive, Electronics used to be expensive, but they are, naturally, very, very cheap. They will get far cheaper as volume increases, and you'll be able to get your cameras at the local NAPA shop. Most of the sensors have perfectly reasonable value in terms of engine control, and should be dirt cheap in volume. Mechanical systems that are expensive and far more custom. Most sensors are relatively cheap already, are solid state, and pretty durable. Compare Dual Holley carbs vs. fuel injectors with electronic sensors, and figure out which stays tuned longer, which gets better mileage (performs better air-gas mixture regulation), and which has lower total cost (once the maintenance is included in the mix.) I think you can add a truckload of sensors for the amount of labour you save.


    Cars should include redundant sensors that vote, just like on more expensive vehicles, so that when one sensor fails, the system diagnoses it, and one can get it replaced at leisure without having the car misfire in the meantime.


    Cars are going to get simple the way PC hardware is getting trivial. It is cheaper to throw out boards than to troubleshoot them in the PC world. Diagnosing a car should be a matter of understanding what fourty or fifty sensors are saying. Computers are probably better at that than humans, and will be able to give us reasonable diagnoses. Older cars with more primitive computers tend to give garbage diagnoses (not enough data...)


    P.S. Silicon is cheap and light.

  78. So how reliable can a communications bus be? by multiplexo · · Score: 1

    If you have a direct wire between two points you have three points of failure, the wire, the transmitter or the receiver. These are relatively predictable. It seems that with a packetized communications bus you also have the specter of a failure mode involving service dropping below a certain threshold. It would be cool if you could design an automotive control bus that would allow for signalling and control and then just be able to plug things into it. Want a nav system? Plug it in? Want to pipe your cell phone over the audio system? Plug it in (or connect via Bluetooth), need a tire pressure sensor? Plug it in. Hook the brakes up to it, steering, accelerator and everything else without having to worry about designing specific linkages or control systems.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.