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EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor
Raunch writes "The BBC says that EU is determined to be one of the sites that host the multi-billion-dollar International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor Even if they have to do so less-than-internationally: 'If there is no agreement at six we are determined to do it with fewer.' Not only that, but 'The EU wants an agreement on the project before the end of the year'"
No, it's not the US putting up a fight. No, it's not the US that would probably be shut out in the cold. This is a threat against Japan and to a lesser extent China. Can we please keep the US vs. Europe flamewar out of this thread?
A deadline? Wait .. I thought the purpose of government was to prevent things from getting done. Couldn't have happened anywhere else but the US^H^H^H EU!
Steal This Sig
There is certainly a big fat chunk of change to wind up in the host country. With costs spread across 6 contributing countries, and even if the host country has to pay a larger share, that is all money going into:
- local construction companies (high end ones)
- local infrastructure (data, transport, etc)
- ongoing salaries being spent in the local villages
- pride for the news bylines containing $GLORIOUS_MOTHERLAND
I understand the US is pretty agnostic to location (realizing that the one thing all the other 5 could agree that it would absolutely not be the US)-- but with recent developments where Paris is not so much the US friend, and Tokyo is ever more loyal, I wouldn't be surprised if the US starts to put its thumb on the scales...
davejenkins.com |
This is something so important to the people of the world, and all the politicians can think of is to fight about where it will be placed.
I just wish, for once, these people would get out of their petty mindsets and realize that the more important issue here is NOT where it's going to be, but what it is going to do.
Er, go ahead with the flaming about the evil terrorists who will destroy the reactor or take over the worlds energy sources now.
StrayByte.Net
China, Europe, Japan, South Korea, the Russian Federation, and the United States of America are all involved .
... China and S.Korea has political issues to think about . Right now , nobody in the WORLD will agree about a US based Nuklear reactor . Japan ? .. That whole country has bad memories associated with anything Nuklear (for the whole world too).
I'd have thought "Nobody wants it in their backyard" would be for a Nuklear reactOr ?.
Russia does sound a nice place but everyone has shudders about another Chernobyl
So what's the big deal about EU ?. (ok, if they did it "less-than-internationally" for access , technology and funding it'd be bad...).
After all it's just not one country that can be taken over, too near enemies or has a bad history of using nukes (Hmmm).
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
A significat new energy source is going to be huge, especially with world demand for oil (due to the growth in Chinese industry) rising to the point where its pushing supply to the limits...
Supposedly this reactor would represent the last major step required before, hopefully, fusion power stations could become a reality. The EU very naturally wants t locate it in Europe, thus giving Europe a stronger edge and focus in alternative energy research.
Interestingly the alternate site is not in the US, but rather in Japan. And that is certainly what the EU is worried about - the Japanese economy, afte a decade and more of recession is finally starting to crawl back. And the Japanese are very good at small and efficient, and are already leading the world (jointly with Korea I guess) in alternative power transport (hybrids, and hydrogen fuel cell cars).
It will be interesting to see how the fight finally plays out.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
I guess it's to speed up the filming of Terminator 4.
delay the fusion project. Reason: oil industry. I attended a presentation about the technical background of Fusion(tokamak) reactors in Hungary last year. Probably 2036 is the time when the first feasible fusion reactor could have started working, that was the plan a year ago. It happens to be at the same time when oil supplies run out. If these kind of reactors make it before that time, oil companies lose money. And thats a thing the USA wont let.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
I'm tired of the Euros and their damned 'go it alone' attitude! The world just became a more dangerous place.
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor
No. I should read 'France Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor'. France and Japan have been battling over the reactor since the project was announced. It looks like the consortium will splinter. That is not a bad thing. It might inject some real high stakes competition into nuclear fusion reaseach.
an ill wind that blows no good
I hope they get this wrangling over the site over with soonish and get down to building something. We need some abundant energy source pretty soon to avoid either global anarchy when the fossil fuels run out or global catastrophe when we gas the planet with CO2. ITER is the best chance yet. I bet there'll be cool science/technology spin-offs too.
The world is everything that is the case
The article and the "treat" by the EU to get an article written make the whole thing look like a Negotiation tactic to break a deadlock. Very unremarkable in any other way, these sorts of negotiations go on all the time.
Explain to me why france isnt our friend? Because they couldnt be bribed to support attacking a country that had nothing to do with 9/11? Is it because they supported letting the UN weapons inspectors do there job? (BTW, it appears in hindsight that everyone that supported the UN doing its job is right since we havent found WMDs)
You do realize that the majority of the worlds population was against the war right? You realize that even though Spain "supported" us, it was because we bribed them and 90% of the people in Spain were against it. China, Russia, Germany, and from what I understand even a majority of people polled in our closest allie the UK were against it.
So, just curious, what are the reason? Please dont tell me they stink, eat too much cheese, or dont shave there armpits.
Well, we already off load most of our CO2 production to third world countries and china, the decline in manufacturing and farming (yes farting cows) is significantly helping to reduce our CO2 levels.
The outsourcing of work to other countries is also keeping our inflation low, cheep imports=low inflation, we hardly produce any food in this country.
So don't be greedy, let a heavily polluting country like China or a country with next to no resources like Japan have the pride in have a fusion research faculty.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
um yeah that's right, France has a really big problem with "terrorists" and people disliking them don't they? Unlike, say the US.
I can only think of one country that actually dislikes the French at the moment and that's the US.
Can't help thinking that the word "Experimental" in the name is going to frighten people unnecessarily.
I've had the theme tune to Quantum Leap going through my head all day... Now you have, too!
But who will pay the electric bill
Philip
Signatures are broken
If our supplies of coal and oil even get close to drying up before we can mass produce electricity from fusion generators then the world is in big trouble. Not only do we rely on oil for our light and heat but for transport of *all* goods, food and clothes. Our economies and lives would be thown into turmoil and you can bet that the powerful countries won't object to war to solve these problems (maybe they are doing so already?) Our civilisation hinges upon our supplies of energy (see Last and First Men :) and this makes research into fusion power the most important endevour of our time.
With regards the EU making the world a more dangerous place comment, I can only assume that was a joke.
They drink mostly coffee. I am afraid you confuse them with another exotic ethnic group.
And you think that's less dangerous than having terrorists out to get you?
---
We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience
With the cost of Iraq war draining at about $1.5B per week, it roughly takes 1 month of war for 1 reactor, in monetary terms.
I'd rather be French and be accused of being all "hot air" than be American and invade innocent countries, but I suppose it's a matter of taste.
:/
Mod parent down please.
All i remember from visiting the site is the colors. They hurt, a lot!
:P
Oh and the website feedback form with the pastel green text on a slightly darker shade of pastel green background asking how do i find the color schemes. Sadly there was no option for "This is not 1995".
I didn't rtfa, i'd rather not explode my eyes some more. This site makes me wish for a monochrome screen
100% of statistics are wrong.
So basically the EU is saying "If everybody can't agree, then we'll just pick up our toys and go home and play by our own rules." That kind of unilateralism is poisonous to international relations. It is one thing to go unilateral when you think your *vital* interests (i.e. something you are willing to go to war over) are at stake and a completely different thing to be a unilateralist just to stick your finger in somebody's eye. Fusion research is important, but not something the EU is willing to go to war over, so they should negotiate. The EU should not act unilaterally because to go unilateral will harm international cooperation and sour relations with Japan and the US.
Hopefully they won't go and cause a resonance cascade...
What terrorists?
while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
I can only think of one country that actually dislikes the French at the moment and that's the US.
Not to be a French apologist, but have you heard of Algeria?
Suck my balls
Uhh, what innocent country is that? Ivory Coast?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
With having 2 seperate projects. One US/Japan and an intra EU project? OK - it increases costs but a few billion is hardly significant in governmental terms. Hopefully they would engage in knowledge sharing and figure out who did what best and how TOGETHER their creations are greater than the sum of its parts...
Or maybe I'm just hoping for some rational, reasonable thinking and not politics.... Hmmm... That'll be the day....
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Ya, too bad we've had cold fusion up and running at area51 since the 70's. We just like to laugh at everyone else throw their money into dead-ends.
QUOTE: "If I were a fusion scientist going to work on ITER, I'd much prefer to live in beautiful France than in the sparsely populated bit of North Japan where ITER would be built."
Yeaahhh... but that's not the point!
1. Which location will make a better video game when it all goes sour and opens a spiraling portal to Dark Aether?
2. You don't want the scientists to be distracted by the svelte natives.
3. Don't do that!
Plasma Physics and Fusion Glossary
Before spending too much money, the EU may want to consider the "Fusion Barrier Law" referenced on this site.
You'll have to dig a bit as AP is a prolific writer, but it's there.
Basically AP has 'proved' that energy out of a fusion reactor is limited to 2/3 of energy in to the reactor.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
RTFA! It is a fusion reactor! Totally different technology! I had one down the street from me years ago in Princeton, NJ. Too bad the program was cut after they started having breakthroughs. I hear one of the unemployed physicists had to work at Best Buy to get by for a while because there are not many job postings for this line of work.....
or all the Muslims that aren't allowed to wear their scarves?
Speaking as a Brit, we don't like the French either! Or the Welsh for that matter. Its just one of those things! ;-)
0. I hope ITER is committed to open sourcing the technology once it is developed. 1. I believe we need to start deploying fusion reactors as soon as we can safely do so. 2. Energy / oil companies are probably not going to lose any money in the deal because they are going to be the ones building and operating fusion reactors so they do not need to worry that much. 3. The only losers in this will likely be the major oil producing nations. 4. I would rather have all-electric cars powered by cheap energy produced by fusion reactors rather than hydrogen-powered ones {hydrogen powered vehicles have a tendency to explode}. Live long and prosper
Japan should build one at their site and EU should build the other at theirs.
Imagine Japan-China-India vs. US-EU-etc.
I'd pay to see that.
No one in here likes the Brits.
How about Corsica and the resistance to French colonialism there? The Corsican resistance periodically explodes bombs to try to drive the French out. (I don't condone bombing, but it makes the point that the French are not universally loved). There also has been scattered anti-french violence in other French colonies like New Caldonia. And Algerian islamists (also victims of French imperialism) such as GIA try to strike french targets when they get the chance.
France's opposition to the US war in Iraq had *nothing* to do with priciple and everything to do with
Who told you that one, Undercover Elephant?
You do know they are only banned in state schools, right? And only girls wear them? Just how much damage do you think these French Muslim schoolgirls are going to do?
Not only fusion, but also secret inteligent squirles...
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
There are a lot less earthquakes in France than Japan !
Surely not a trivial issue for something like this ?
With all the writing this guy does, on physics, the stock market and on other stuff, you wonder where he finds the time to do any actual research. Reading his 'proof' about the limits on output of a fusion reactor, I can draw only one conclusion: he's a crackpot.
Oh and in between cracking the secrets to the stockmarkets and proving wrong all the eminent scientists who believe fusion power can work, he also solved the problem of the Grand Unified Theory of Physics, according to his website.
This is not intended as a flame; but I have some serious problems taking this guy seriously.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
...than they are at building their website. That home page is truly awful, with very little real text and everything done with images. If you want to visit with Lynx, or if you're a search engine, bad luck.
Ydco co
I was under the impression that the US was neutral on the issue of site location
I quote:
"Looney said that "If the US joins ITER it would not be as a lead player." The United States is "absolutely neutral" as to where the facility would be located..."
From:
http://www.aip.org/fyi/2003/065.html
What if it blows up ? .. it is a Thermonuclear reactor ... Oh, God what have I done, I've got common sense.
But hell, I want it to be in EU for other reasons.Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Why are people suggesting that this will in any way affect the US's dependancy on oil. We use oil primarily for our vehicles. Unless everyone is going to get a fusion reactor in their car or someone miraculously solves all of the problems associated with electric cars, this will have very little affect on our dependency on oil. It will have a very large affect on our coal and fission consumption.
Actually, Americans like the Brits. It's a big crazy cycle!
"If a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a hand gun" - Dan Rather
"What makes a man turn neutral?"
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
The Americans like the British government because it does what they say. That policy is very unpopular here in Britain, and will most likely change after the election next year.
spain is the terrorist objective, not france
Yes, and Spain gave into the terrorists and the terrorists just keep on plotting to kill them.
me of them, heavily injuried claimed for their live, but had no luck. I thinks that's the true TERROR-ism
Yes, it's just horrible how those men, who tried to kill US soldiers the day before, weren't given flowers and chocolates. And no, the marine shouldn't have shot him, but a little bit of perspective is needed here.
I'm assuming the press in your country isn't covering the blood filled torture chambers and slaughter houses that the troops have found? Or how the innocent Iraqis are glad that the US has come, but they wish the US had come earlier.
"If a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a hand gun" - Dan Rather
Okay, what's the official rule on how many countries you have to include before you may use the coveted "International" logo? I always thought it was two.
No no no... it's ok to shoot innocent civilians in the Ivory Coast because they're using FRENCH bullets!
But Iraq was innocent because Saddam was killing his own people using Russian and Chinese bullets!
It's ok, just as long as they aren't American bullets!
"If a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a hand gun" - Dan Rather
A 'Brit' who hates the Welsh!?!?!?!?! The Welsh are British, or did that escape your notice? I know several who don't hate themselves. Perhaps you don't think you're European either.
Your xenophobic joke is as amusing as the American teenagers braying about 'Ass-rape' whenever prison is mentioned. Get a life.
That's right -- and when you actually do manage to get a cup of tea in France, they brew it using tea bags and don't put milk in it. Double gick!
the other iter members went ahead and cleared the blockade that has been laid since bush reentered iter.
The first post is completely wrong about it being a "threat" to China or anyone else. China *wants* the reactor to be built in the EU instead of Japan. So does the other ITER member, Russia. If the US hadn't opposed the french location and induced Japan to resist it more strongly despite the odds, the project would have went ahead some time ago.
Unlike nuclear fission power, fusion power has enough fuel available that it could potentially supply all of the world's energy demand for thousands and even millions of years and it doesn't produce nearly as much dangerous nuclear waste nor can fusion power be used as a disguise for a nuclear weapons program. The amount of deuterium for fusion is practically unlimited - 1 kg of ordinary water contains about 1 gram of heavy water which contains deuterium instead of common hydrogen. It seems that, unlike in the past decades where the researchers said "Fusion Power will be ready soon, there are just some issues which we expect to have resolved soon if we get more money." it now is "We have the issues resolved and could build a reactor that can sustain a fusion reaction and give a net output of energy. Now we just need the money to build a reactor sufficiently large so we can prove and make sure that it works like we think it does."
Of course with such a pretty-much-as-cheap-as-coal technology available as the solar tower that is so simple in its function, provides steady uninterrupted power, and about which relevant laws of nature are so well understood that it is guaranteed to work, it may be questionable if we actually have a reasonable need for fusion power on earth. Of course, solar towers need a sunny place to build them in order to be efficient and they don't need any high-tech to build either, which may well be the reason why the west has mostly stopped supporting the technology. Solar tower for large scale electricity production can be build with just basic construction materials like mostly cement, steel and glass(which is sand) and with labor. Ideal if you want to help many poor countries, but inadequate if you want them to stay poor and dependent to keep exploiting them.
Speaking as a Brit, I am Welsh.
Now fuck off.
I'm sorry that my post failed to amuse you. :(
As much as I agree with you on the Welsh thing I feel the need to point out that the Welsh are in fact also British, so saying "As a Brit I don't like the Welsh" doesn't make much sense. You probably meant "As an [Englishman|Scot] I don't like the Welsh"
If there are any Welshman reading this the correct phrase for yourselves is "As a Welshman can you direct me to the nearest Benefits Agency Office, boyo?"
Just after I hit submit I noticed my foot stuck in my mouth! Doh!!
As much as I wish you were right, I bet Tony and his motley crew will get in again... largely due to the alternatives not looking particularly strong. :-(
People in the US have not like the French for decades. I think it partly has to do with how much we butcher the French language when we speek it and partly due to the number of jokes we have about the French when it comes to war. Most of the war jokes are due to the French getting over-run repeatedly by the Prussians/Germans. It has nothing to do with France not supporting the war in Iraq/Afganistan.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Actually the law was written such that it could be applied to the Jewish Yamaka and the Christian Cross. It wasn't a ban on headscarves only but somewhere along the lines of "outgoing religious items"
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
If the EU really wanted to have ITER in Europe they would have chosen the Spanish site (Vandellós) which was a technically better bid. AND the US would have voted YES to SPAIN (at least in 2003).
So at this very moment the ITER would be being constructed in the EU with a clear consensus.
But not, France wanted the ITER in France, not in the EU, and here we are at this deadpoint.
SHAME ON YOU FRANCE
Clearly the reason that ITER needs to be build in the EU is because unlike our US cousins, EU citizens are smart enough to grasp the complex difference between the words "fission" and "fusion" and understand that "fission" is not the same as "fusion" even if they do both begin with the letter "f" and end in the letter "n".
It's amusing that the ignorant comments about this reactor "blowing up" all appear to come from US posters. I really can not fathom why you all seem to be so totally ignorant of the basic concept of fusion reaction..
Go away or I will say the words "Bay of Pigs" at you a second time!
by the way, has anyone seen the video where US soldiers get into a flat and begin to shoot almost dead iraquians? some of them, heavily injuried claimed for their live, but had no luck.
I have heard many things about this and part of the problem is that some of those same people hide guns and then when the troops go to get them they then open fire. I've also heard some pretending they are dead so when the troops get closer they can also shoot them.
I'm not saying what they did is right. I'm just saying that it is a bad situation. I'm also someone who believes that no matter what we do Iraq will go into a civil war since they have to religions that do not trust each other at all.
As far as the fusion reactor in france. Wasn't that where it was built in Railroad Tycoon 3 and then explodes and you have to try to save as much stuff as possible as the world floods?
Hmm i hope that game wasn't predicting the future!
If France would have accepted the Spanish site in Vandellós, the US would have voted yes to ITER in Europe.
But France pressed hard to present only one choice to the ITER consortium and get Spain out of the way. Should the EU present two choices the ITER would be beeing constructed at this very time in Europe (but not in France).
If the EU really wanted to have the ITER in Europe it should have accepted the Spanish proposal in Vandellós, but the French Eurocracy didn't want the ITER in the EU, they wanted it in France.
US already had said YES to Spain, it isn't the US fault, nor the EU fault.
It's France fault.
Speaking as a Brit, we don't like the French either! Or the Welsh for that matter.
What you meant was speaking as a "little englander", the rest of Britain (including Wales) don't share your xenophobic tendancies.
Personally I hate Channel Islanders. Those smug bastards taunting us with their tax free living!
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Clinton pulled out because the US wanted to experiment on fusion in a whole other are, namely firing lasers at tritium-pellets.
If you read the articles liked to the main page, you can clearly see that after 3 years the USA came back around the table, but oposed France as an area where Iter could be build, because of France's oposition to the war.
Which is really silly and childish. The USA should grow up and respect the wishes of other countries not to support an illegal war, and not try to link an international scientific endeavour with their foreign politics and their scewed worldview that the US should rule everything, blessed as it is by God Himself.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
..And about bureaucracy. To the eyes of EU politicians this is just an opportunity for more taxpayers' money to be spent (read: wasted) and for more *political* power.
There are some many smarter and cheaper alternatives to fusion... but why endorse them when fusion costs a thousand times more?
Ah, good old Archimedes Plutonium is still alive. In case you didn't know, that guy is a known usenet crackpot. I added him to my killfile in 1995 or so.
"The secret of government spending: why build one when you can have two for twice the price?"
In all seriousness... why not have them compete? The more competition, the better the final reactor will be.
The chances of Labour losing the next General Election are about 1 in 100. The Tories are still a complete joke and look set to remain that way. Once their core constituancy of white haired little old ladies and old farts at the bowls club start dying off in significant numbers we might actually see them slip away and we can have an effective opposition for a change. God knows we need one.
Hacker: Do we ever get our own way with the French?
Humphrey: Sometimes.
Hacker: When was the last time?
Humphrey: Battle of Waterloo, 1853.
This sig all sigs devours
yeah. since the US actually had the first working TFTR in the world and broke many records in this area of research I am sure it is safe to assume we USAians know nothing about fusion. I am sure there are idiots in every country. Care to put your idiots up against mine. Jackass.
http://www.fusion.org.uk/
- This and all my posts are public domain. I am a Physicist. I am not your Physicist. This is not Physically advice
You want the US to contribute massive amounts of money to a scientific research center (possibly to be built in the EU), but not to have any say in the location. I'm sure if another country, say Iraq, were to give millions of dollars to French and German companies for research... oh wait. Your politicians have already been bought.
For sale:
WWII French rifles. Never fired, only dropped once
WWII French uniforms. Reversible - Axis on one side, allies on the other.
they prefer invasion and occupation to get the energy-resources they want
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Um.. The United States of America are 50 sovereign states that agreed to not only loosely cooperate but to join and form a federal union. I think 200 years of having a common currency, tax system, constitution, Army, and system of laws while still maintaing local sovereignty, local constitutions, local laws, local tax systems, and even local military forces means the U.S. can teach a lot about cooperation among sovereign states. In those 200 years, our states have only fought amongst themselves once. While I applaud the EU's recent steps toward integration, you guys are still playing catch-up when it comes to being a model of inter-state cooperation. When somebody asks your nationality and you say "European" and not German or French or Italian, then you will have reached a level of complete cooperation and integration that the USA acheived long ago.
Really, the US and the EU and Japan all need to cooperate on this matter and not engage in jingoism or zero-sum games. Why can't we all work togather instead of each one doing his own unilateral thing? I can understand being a holdout when vital interests (that by definition can't be compromised), but this is not one of those issues. This fusion lab is the kind of thing that we should all be able to work togather on. Nobody's national interests are at stake here.
Read sci.physics and sci.physics.relativity, but take care your brain doesn't explode. Those newsgroups (and the fusion ones) are great for kook-watching. I should add that there are some people who really do know their stuff and will try to explain the errors of the loonies. Some even manage to stay calm (afaics) while doing it.
The project is already one year late ! The decision of the site should have been taken last december!
This project is of the upmost importance for all of us, where ever you live.
ITER is about the enery of tomorrow. Oil isn't going to last for ever and I guess that you expect you PC to work with electron and not candles, do you?
The US should probably starts it own project, all on its own. It's not that expensive (just a couple billons dollars over 20 years).
Fusion is the energy of tomorrow! But if we want it tomorrow we better starts reseaching today!!!!
Hey, just making an observation. Take a look yourself; count all the "It's gonna blow!" posts which are made by obvious US citizens and then count the idiotic posts made by non-US citizens.
I never said that everyone in the US was stupid, nor did I say that the US doesn't have it's fair share of Fusion Reactor researchers (Although less than it should). My point is that the general population of the US seem to equate "Nuclear" with "GONNA KILL YER BABIES!!!!", and generally appear to be totally ignorant of basic concepts like "Fission" and "Fusion".
Still that was a nice rant you had there. Did it make you feel better?
Come on! How do you think the rest of the world does business? Do you think the US or Japan, or any other country behaves differently? See Microsoft or Boeing, for example!
Possibly because frenchies, spaniards and what not don't make up the mahoirtiy of posters on this board. Dimwitted fool. Also, I am sure many posts are tongue in cheek. How many people has Europe put on the moon? How many TFTR reactors have they had break even. Go shovel your ignorance somewhere else.
French politics have been more than a bit contrarian for several decades. This has diluted their influence both in the EU and in the world community in general. I'm not sure if the EU is ready to except the philosophy of "all things nuclear is in France".
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Although you dont read about it much today the anti-war groups lead by the likes of lindberg went a long way to delaying the US entry into WWII and as a result caused far more death and suffering by prolonging the war.
Hah! I would think anti-war people would NOT want the US involved in anything regarding war. But your saying anti-war activists blame the US for not going to battle in WW2 sooner is hypocrisy at it's finest.
Life is not for the lazy.
When I first read this I was thinking but isn't fusion currently incapable of producing more electricity than it consumes? Well, it turns out it is capable of producing more electricity than it consumes, but just barely. Not enough to sustain regular power generation. The record Power Amplification Factor (Q) is 1.25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_nuclear_ fusion). This project is expected to push that factor up to 10, which is "proof of principle" but still below what is desirable for "good overall plant efficiency" (http://www.iter.org/ITERPublic/ITER/fr7.html). So that's why it's an "experimental" reactor. Based on the timeline of this project (and assuming it's successful) it looks like usable fusion reactors could be less than 50 years away.
One of the results of fusion is free neutrons, going off into whatever material surrounds the fusion process. In the case of the tokamak, neutrons can't be confined by magnetic fields because they are electrically neutral. The neutrons make the tokamak itself become highly radioactive over time, and will cause it to eventually be decommissioned because it is too dangerous to work around.
Now, granted, the tokamak can be stored unused for a hundred years or so and then recommissioned (it is a hell of a lot better than the thousand-years half-lives of fission wasteproducts), but it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
It's not racism because it's not about the fact that they are racially different that creates the tension. It's the ~1,000,000 civilians the Japanese army murdered in Nanking and the other attrocities it committed during its occupation in China. It's like a man killing roughly 1/4 of the people on his block and then asking one of his surviving neighbors if his son wants to go out and play with the killer's son. What happened was really ugly, and those who witnessed it can't just forget it simply because the war is over.
After reading TFA, what happens is Europe and partners, really want to go ahead with this and will do it alone if necessary. (basicaly they gave japan until end of year to decide)
I agree completely on the urgence, because there is already scientific proof, that the concept would work. The technology only needs to scale up, and prove itself, before using it massively. (to get +- infinitum energy).
That is a "good thing"tm.
With all the problems from a oil-dependent economy (with some of its problems discussed all around this thread), moving to a clean, cheap, source of energy is the way to go.
Then we wouldnt even argue about CO2 or kioto treaty.
Of course it would be so fucking good, that many of the presures on the whole capitalistic, global economy, would be gone, and conspiration teories abound.
But that (getting a cheap, clean source of energy) really needs to happen if we are to make the world a better place, for us and latter generations.
EU executive comission only wants to go forward, fast, and if possible with japans approval and support:
"A central feature of a consensus would be a genuine partnership between the EU and Japan,"
So if europe rather go alone than wait for ever to do it, they have my aproval both as an european and as a citizen of the world. If japan wants to join it would be even better, and i'm sure there's enough research to be done by both.
But be quick,or be late.
I'm trying to get modded "Interesting Flamebait Informative and Insightful Redundant Troll" *-* Please Help *-*
"Just how much damage do you think these French Muslim schoolgirls are going to do?"
They can inspire folks in Iraq to take French journalists hostage. Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot are still out there somewhere.
quoting James Woosley:
... have we in the past from time to time targeted foreign corporations and government assistance to them?"
... The part of the world that where this culture of getting contracts through bribery, that actually has a great deal of money, and is active in international contracting is to a first approximation Europe".
Explaining his view that Europe was the main centre of world industrial bribery, he asked "Why
"Some of our oldest friends and allies have a national culture and a national practice such that bribery is an important part of the way they try to do business in international commerce
"[...] The principle offenders, from the point of view of paying bribes in major international contracts in the world, are Europe. And indeed, they are some of the very same companies -- the companies are in some of the very same countries where the most recent flap has arisen about alleged American industrial espionage."
You probalby don't know, but this reactor will NOT solve the fusion problem. In fact, people are skeptical today about the feasability of fusion reactors (among other problems, it's not clear which materials would support intense neutrone radiation for a long time, or how to get the thermal energy out of the plasma).
The problem is that French physicists somehow managed to push the goverment into getting involved into this, thus draining huge amounts of money from all the other disciplines. Just imagine the NSF giving half its money to one project with to foreseable outcome...
and the current 'terrorist threat', and the '
cold war', and patents, and microsoft, and bush and fucking right wing christan freeks.
Shut the fuck up. We kicked you out of our country for a reason, hell we even gave you your freedom,
You have to dig back 80 years before you can find one thing you think was good.
Lets face it, you probably helped start the cold war, and the whole nuclear arms race. Hitler wasn't that bad either, I wish he'd finished killing off all the religious right, then maybe we wouldn't have so many problems in the middle east (or george bush for that matter).
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Put it on on Dome A. The Chinese can transport it there (they're going anyway, so they can lug the ITER with them, and if it's too heavy, they can conscript a million more peasants. Think modern day Pyramid construction). The Japs can assemble it and the Americans can pay for it (national debt, you say? what national debt?). The Europeans can administer it (they like to think they're good at administering things anyway), and the Russians can provide moral support, reassuring everyone that Dome A is warm compared to where they grew up in Siberia (and more importantly, they can supply the vodka). IANANS (nuke scientist), but perhaps the cold temperature will come in handy in cooling the torus or something like that. Perfect solution, now I just have to explain to GW what nuclar fusion is. Wish me luck.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
And Hiroshima and Nagasaki are at the top of the atrocities humans commited to themselves.
Well..France has had terrorist problems for years. "Action Directe", Corsican seperatists and Algerian extremists spring to mind. But I don't think any of those will be interested in going after a research facility.
How about Corsica and the resistance to French colonialism there? The Corsican resistance periodically explodes bombs to try to drive the French out.
You forget a small detail : We have a democracy, here, and the Corsican nationalists are engaged in every election. At their VERY BEST they get about 20% votes. So what ? Should we flatly ignore the 80% ppl wanting to stay french in favor of those 20% ?
New Caledonia voted for an independance plan. It will vote again (I don't remember when) and if they want independance they'll get it.
French Gaullist Nationalism - It makes the French feel big and important *snip* That's why De Gaulle pulled out of active NATO involvement
No, he simply did not want us to go on war towards the Warsaw pact under US command, without having the faintest say. Can you perhaps see a similarity with much more recent events ?
- Don't go on thinking we have illusions about our "power", that's utterly wrong. But we do not accept anything for the sole reason it is proposed by a more powerful country
- As for muslims, especially Algerians, I must say they feel real bad here, as is proven by them fleeing this land everyday... oh wait...
- I was more than once in our former North-African colonies and as a french I was often especially welcomed. Damn, these people must be masochists... BTW The Algerian independance war was a disaster most french disaproved, and De Gaulle put an end to it.
- The current US governement thinks it can use brute force to get a better Irak. We'll see, it might as well provide us with a brand new Islamic republic...
One of those Europeans...
The majority of fossil fuel power plants are coal with some gas but hardly any oil. Gas is already running out so I hardly see how fusion reactors, even if you could build one tomorrow, would affect things.
Sorry but a fusion reactor is most definitely a nuclear reactor. It is, however, a different type of nuclear reactor. Current reactors split up large nuclei into smaller ones via a fission reactor. A fusion reactor binds two nuclei together to form a heavier one.
The reason both reactions give energy is because iron-56 is the most stable nucleus = one with the most binding energy per nucleon [proton or neutron]. Lighter nuclei can gain energy be binding together and heavier nuclei by splitting up.
I'd also take issue with the statement that it is the cleanest and safest source of energy. I grant you that it is far cleaner and safer than fission but the main attraction of fusion is the readily available supply of fuel: sea water (or at least the deuterium you can extract from it!). My guess would be that something like wave power will be far cleaner and safer but it is just not practical to line the entire world's coasts with power plants!
It's good that the US is trying to set a better example then.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/08/olympic.bribes.03/
Big international business is corrupt. Who would've guessed?
Which shows the stupidity of it, even if it was meant for establishing geo-political influence in that oilladen region. That said, even Bush himself acknowledged he had thought things would go more smoothly after winning the war. Ah, well, whatever the price will be, *he* certainly will think it was worth it.
Why? What's wrong with hair? It's there for a reason, unlike your brain.
You DO realise that the French use more cosmetic products per person than any other nation on Earth, don't you?
There are other carrier types around which can support large fighter aircraft. Whilst the US has the most, they are not the only ones.
Visceral Psyche Films
I understand that the holy grail of fusion is to get past the "break even" point where the reaction produces more energy than it takes to sustain itself. Something I've always wondered about is how far past break even is considered practical. I mean anything past that point is free energy so is .0001% worth the bother? Am I thinking of it the wrong way?
I think you pointed out the problem: there is no legislative, nor military or police-force on earth that could make the USA accountable. Which they know all to well, and therefor they act as the classical bully who knows no1 can touch him.
Maybe we should look for a stronger UN, where the veto-right is inhibited or at least severely restricted, and countries, even big ones, are held accountable for their actions.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Ever heard of international law? In the UN, it is no secret that it was an illegal war; Kofi Anan himself has said as much. It's not a problem of identifying it by the UN, it's a problem of getting accountability, as I said.
It's one thing to point to the problem, it's another one to be able do do something about it (as you yourself indicated).
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
When the original states first gained independance from the UK, they were each individual states with all the powers of sovereign states. They had their own currencies and militaries. They were loosely confederated under the "Articles of Confederation", but still were completely independent states with the power to wage war. But they saw that cooperation was more important than independance so they created the Constitution and Federal government. They agreed to share their sovereignty with the Federal government and so they gave up those rights. Why can't Europe do the same?
And they're paying me off too. It really is a good deal - come on over
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
"There is no such thing as international law when there is no way to enforce it."
;-)
That is clearly not true. You have laws, which are not enforced; the legal system in most western countries are rifed with it. You have laws that were enforced, but not any longer. And you have laws, which are basically uninforcable. You even have laws that that are made by agreement, not be force.
Even the US itself accepts the notion of international law, only they have the tendency to acknowledge it when it suits them, and disregard it when it doesn't. That doesn't mean that international law doesn't exist, it just means the US (and other countries that do the same) is hypocrite and arrogant.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Shudder... AP used to upset me quite a lot with his ridiculous statements on usenet.
One of his ideas to help global warming was to cover a significant portion of the earth with Helios-like aircraft (NASA experimental solar powered aircraft). Insanse. And not in a genius sort of way.