Preview of KDE 3.4

comforteagle writes "In this month's KDE: From the Source George Staikos details what is to be expected from the upcoming 3.4 version of KDE. An Alpha release is due any minute so you might as well know what you're in for if you're a loyal K head. Some changes include major rework within KHTML & Konqueror, Subversion support, and Apple's Rendezvous."

Comments

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fp!

[Anonymous Coward]

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Rendezvous?

[LEgregius]

I believe Apple changed the name for that. The internal name is ZeroConf.

Re:Rendezvous?

[Sc00ter]

No. Zero Conf is an opensource project that has been around since before Rendezvous.

Rendezvous is apple's version of ZeroConf.

More info on ZeroConf

More inof on Rendezvous

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

ZeroConf was the open source version.

It is no longer called Rendezvous though. It's called OpenTalk.

Re:Rendezvous?

[podperson]

Just to clarify the preceding correction:

Rendezvous and Zeroconf are the same thing, the latter being the Open Source release of the Rendezvous technology.

The ZeroConf page is maintained by Stuart Cheshire, who is the engineer at Apple responsible for Rendezvous.

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to GNOME 2.8's changelog (I think that's where I read this), it's now called OpenTalk, actually.

Re:Rendezvous?

[rd_syringe]

Another new version of KDE, but I still see none of the changes that people have been requesting for years that would make Linux an actual usable operating system for the desktop. These range from a universal binary installation/uninstallation API (Windows 95 had this ten years ago) to a hardware-accelerated graphics/audio API akin to DirectX (whatever it takes to do this...replace X11 if you need to). A redesigned interface that is much less cluttered and confusing--taskbars and start menus are horrendous interface choices that have only been implemented to rip off Windows. And a much-needed improvement in responsiveness. Both KDE and GNOME are so incredibly slow compared to OSX and Windows. Again, Windows 95 provided the same level of functionality we're finally reaching ten years later, yet Windows 95 was much snappier and easier to use and ran on 8MB of RAM.

We don't need more cute little sidebar buttons and more esoteric features that few use. We need basic revisions to the fundamental design. Gnome seems to be the only project concerned with this. Y-Windows is the most promising project when it comes to actually PROGRESSING THE DESKTOP ON LINUX.

Note that I respect if you disagree and think KDE/X11 is the greatest. Just offering my views, because I really love the idea of using a Linux desktop everyday like I use Windows XP and OS X. But come on, every year I get tired of waiting for the much-heralded "year of desktop Linux" that never comes. People post the obvious reasons why it doesn't take off, and elitist dorks just dismiss it and go back to arguing about completely meaningless things like Emacs versus vi.

Re:Rendezvous?

[xirtam_work]

Apple have stopped using the name Rendezvous in favour of 'OpenTalk'. ZeroConf is the another name for the same protocol used by the open source version of the project.

Another company owns the trademark on the work Rednezvous when used in relation to networking.

Re:Rendezvous?

[LWATCDR]

Shouldn't ZeroConf be at the OS level and not at the desktop level?

Re:Rendezvous?

[jubei]

Yes. The main component of ZeroConf is a multicast DNS server. However the server is nothing without something to advertise, so their must be a standard way to register services with the server.

This is currently lacking. Just a FYI, there is an opensource implementation of ZeroConf called Howl. Last time I checked into it, several months ago, it was using some apple code, and therefore was not GPL compatible. Apple code was supposed to be replaced at some point.

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just pick one of many unified api package installation systems. For the desktop use FVWM2. Can't get better than that.

Re:Rendezvous?

[JabberWokky]

Sure. Which OS? Get back to me when you've got it running on AIX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, SCO, OSX, Linux, Solaris and the other *nixes that KDE runs on. Until then, it will have to be implemented at a higher level.

--
Evan

Re:Rendezvous?

[LWATCDR]

So it will work on AIX if you are running KDE? What about Gnome? or Afterstep, or if you are using the command line.
Just seems like it is in the wrong place. Sort of like making your Browser and Email client part of the OS and not Apps

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why dont you follow the advice in your sig?

Re:Rendezvous?

[dn15]

Really? Where have they stopped saying Rendezvous and started saying it's OpenTalk? Not that I don't believe you, but the OS X product page is unchanged: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/rendezvous/

Re:Rendezvous?

[xirtam_work]

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. It was all over the Mac news websites a few months ago. I just did a search on the apple developer and main sites and came up blank on open talk as well. I will investigate further when i attend a OS X 10.4 Tiger developer event next week.

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course no-one mods up the one post containing the correct information (parent post).

Apple recently changed the Rendezvous name to OpenTalk because of legal reasons (already existing product). It happened around June IIRC.

Re:Rendezvous?

[Trejkaz]

With support only in the OS, what is the point of having it in the first place? Without developing support into the individual applications, your mail client won't be able to use it to find your mail server. Your web browser wouldn't be able to use it to find your web proxy. And the server applications you actually run, would never be able to advertise themselves as available to the network!

Re:Rendezvous?

[JabberWokky]

Well, think of it this way - the OS provides basic hardware access. The userspace increasingly provides application level drivers (sound drivers, X provides mouse, keyboard and graphics). This allows the user to customize their system without the need to run or access kernel level processes. That makes things more stable and simple in the core kernel and allows the user more flexibility in their space. The system's access control cannot be bypassed by userland processes, so keeping as much high level stuff in the user side of things is a Good Thing To Do, IMO.

Plus, it allows for the (aforementioned) system portability. KDE aims for POSIX/X compatability, with X being a loose requirement (KDE NoX exists, but the thing from X that KDE depends on most is the inter-application communication framework rather than anything having to do with graphics or input).

--
Evan

Re:Rendezvous?

[amRadioHed]

So it will work on AIX if you are running KDE? What about Gnome? or Afterstep, or if you are using the command line.
Just seems like it is in the wrong place. Sort of like making your Browser and Email client part of the OS and not Apps

I agree that this seems like something that would be better implemented elsewhere, but it is the KDE developers who are implementing it. From their PoV within KDE is probably the easiest place to implement it and so far as support in some other windowmanager why would you expect them to care about that?

Re:Rendezvous?

[JabberWokky]

KDE is not a windowmanager - it is an environment. It is, by intent, a complete set of userlevel tools (including CLI tools, scripting and libraries) that provide a user's environment.

KDE developers seem to be fairly concerned about interoperability. Some more than others, but freedesktop.org gets cited quite a bit. GStreamer and DBUS are both discussed quite a bit as potential technologies for KDE 4 (major revisions can break binary compatability, so there has already been quite a bit of discussion on what should be changed vs. what should be incrementally improved).

The tendancy runs: if it is an open standard and runs on all POSIX systems, it is preferred by KDE. It will be interesting to see what changes happen. aRts is almost certain to be removed, as it's poorly maintained and not very well regarded (powerful but laggy and high load).

There has also been a tendancy towards making KDE trimmer over time; each version runs faster and requires less hardware even as it does more. KDE 4 will likely introduce new tech that will bulk up the release, and will likely be trimmed down and made faster over the minor releases. Or at least that's what I predict.

--
Evan

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

"One of many?" What are commercial software developers supposed to do, code for all of them? Why isn't there one universal one described by Freedesktop.org?

I see my post got marked as "Flamebait" for absolutely no reason...that's disappointing...

Re:Rendezvous?

[LWATCDR]

Okay.. But how will Mozilla or Gaim work if Rendezvous is part of KDE. Will these start to require KDE? As for servers... The box I run servers off of doesn't even have X much less KDE

Re:Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

You really are quite amazing. Quote:

I see my post got marked as "Flamebait" for absolutely no reason...that's disappointing...

It got marked as "Flamebait" because it is flamebait. But it would seem that you, being the complete and utter moron that you are, lack the mental capacity to discern such a thing. Now that's truly disappointing...

Re:Rendezvous?

[Trejkaz]

Obviously, Mozilla and GAIM would both need to code support for it themselves, just like everyone else. They are, afterall, applications.

In Korea, only old people ...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

In Korea, only old people preview Kde

In Corea...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only old people use KDE!

Re:In Corea...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Korea! not "Corea"

Re:In Corea...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Corea only old people use CDE

Re:In Corea...

[peterpi]

Heheh, made me laugh, but only because I suffered a year at the hands of CDE at university.

some KDE myths

[Anonymous Coward]

The KDE project is famous for its funded and organised trolling of weblogs and
message board associated with Linux and Free software/open source. Outrageous newbie
impressing claims are made for the software and huge quanities of FUD are spread to
destroy competitors. If this sounds familiar, then you are correct, most of these
tactics were lifted straight from Microsoft's arsenal of dirty tricks. The Windows
look and feel is not the only thing the KDE project has copied! In this short article
I will address some of the lies and FUD spread by the KDE trolling teams. It is my
hope that this, in some small way, will redress the balance and re-introduce two
things almost eradicated by the KDE project: Honesty and facts.

Myth #1 - KDE is more integrated than GNOME

The oft-heard cry of the noisiest KDE advocates. No explanation is given, the reader
is expected to simply grok the wholesomeness of KDE and the lack of this mystical
quality in GNOME. It is nonsense of course. Neither desktop is particularly
"integrated" compared to Windows XP, and certainly not compared any version of the
Apple Mac. Whatever "integrated" actually means.

Myth #2 - KDE is easier to use

Again, such nebulous arguments are never explained, and the reader is expected to
simply understand the truth of the zealots statement. Both KDE and GNOME have
user-interface irritations (all systems do), but "ease of use" is not a simple thing
to measure. KDE has never been subjected to detailed user testing, unlike GNOME
[gnome.org] [gnome.org], and the claims of user-friendliness are from crazed
supporters and not average users. Furthermore, the KDE faithful rarely look beyond
simple-minded copying of Windows, and forget that administering a desktop system is
just as important as having widgets in the correct place on the toolbar. For example:
What about application installation and removal? GNOME has the excellent RedCarpet by
Ximian [ximian.com] [ximian.com], which makes the installation, removal and updating
of applications trivial. KDE users are expected to fend for themselves with brutal
command line driven systems. GNOME also has the excellent Ximian setup tools to
handle various tricky cross-platform and potentially risky system configuration
operations. KDE offers none of this, only a few small half-assed Linux-only tools,
which make no attempt at check-pointing to return to known working configurations.

Myth #3 - KDE is more popular

In what sense? Arguably more people use KDE, but it is a close run thing. Most KDE
zealots use the results of online polls as proof of their superior userbase - which
is, quite frankly, complete and utter nonsense. Online polls are the joke of the
century; it doesn't even require a motivated script kiddie to render then worthless.
A single post alerting the faithful on a zealot-ridden site can skew the result so
much it makes American presidential elections look fair and well organised.
Popularity is also difficult to measure when *both* GNOME and KDE are frequently
installed on the same system. The systems can co-exist and even run at the same time,
except for certain applications such as panels. Many KDE users actually run GNOME
applications for their superior features and stability, not realising that by doing
so they are barely running KDE at all.

One of the few solid measures of popularity is commercial use of a desktop, and here,
GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and Sun committing to using GNOME as the
desktop for their Unix systems. This also ties in with the previously mentioned ease
of use. Sun's major contribution to the GNOME project is in the areas of
user/developer documentation, testing, accessiblity and user-testing. Three of the
less glamourous parts of desktop development. The arrival of the GNOME 2.x series
will see these contributions reach fruitition and allow GNOME to make a quantum leap
ahead of KDE in most of t

Re:some KDE myths

[carnivore302]

It almost seems like trolls spend more time on their posts than regular users, and often include some nice words of wisdom:

Online polls are the joke of the
century; it doesn't even require a motivated script kiddie to render then worthless.
A single post alerting the faithful on a zealot-ridden site can skew the result so
much it makes American presidential elections look fair and well organised.

This is so obvious, I have in fact never thought about it this way. "He guys, on www.xyz.org, I've put up a poll. Do (a) love xyz, (b) hate xyz. Please stop by and vote!". Guess what happens to the results..

While I am a KDE user (loving it since version 1.0) I do think a couple of the objections raised have merit, and others can be easily countered:

What about application installation and removal? GNOME has the excellent RedCarpet by
Ximian [ximian.com] [ximian.com], which makes the installation, removal and updating
of applications trivial.
KDE offers none of this, only a few small half-assed Linux-only tools,
which make no attempt at check-pointing to return to known working configurations.

I think this is true. Although most of us are not hindered by untarring, typing ./configure;make;make install, it is true that KDE is behind in this respect. On the other hand, when using gentoo it is often a matter of a simple emerge -u xyz.

[Konqueror]
It is quite unreliable and even simple standards compliant
pages can crash it quite comprehensively

Maybe, but it hasn't crashed on me for a very long time. As both a windows and kde user, I must say explorer crashes more often than konqueror.

Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely slow startup
times of KDE apps on GCC. One need only look at the recent fuss
over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) used to bandage up the design and coding
flaws in the decrepit KDE architecture to see the truth.

Choosing C++ as the main language for KDE is indeed a decision with lots of impact. At the time of the birth of kde, which must be 7 or 8 years ago(?) only two viable choices were available: C or C++. The choice for C++ has probably speed up the time to implement things, but turned out to be slow at execution. The whole linking mess was discovered long after KDE started out - the KDE architects cannot be blamed for it. As an aside, I think if KDE were redone in java (now also a viable alternative), it would reach the same functionality as todays KDE in very shorter timeframe, while being faster and having fewer bugs.

Still, I think the parent deserves a (+1) underrated.

Re:some KDE myths

[Anonymous Coward]

> It almost seems like trolls spend more time on their posts than regular users

Regular users posts their comment only once and don't repeat posting them with only minor adjustments over the years.

Re:some KDE myths

[Anonymous Coward]

As an aside, I think if KDE were redone in java (now also a viable alternative), it would reach the same functionality as todays KDE in very shorter timeframe, while being faster and having fewer bugs.

Yes, excellent idea. Java is faster than assembler and quicker to code in than visual basic. You could start by replacing KHTML with the wonderful Hot Java and then replace all the buttons with the high performance Swing library.

Re:some KDE myths

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely slow startup
times of KDE apps on GCC. One need only look at the recent fuss
over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) used to bandage up the design and coding
flaws in the decrepit KDE architecture to see the truth

When was the last time you used kde? You may be surprised at the speed improvements kde has made recently. I used KDE up to version 3.0 where I finally found it to be so bloated and slow that I actually returned to windoze. Of course.. it wasn't just KDE that was bloated and slow, it was also Red Hat 8.0. Windows actually ran much faster. I wasn't as far ahead of the power user curve as I am now and I wanted an easy to use environment.

I returned to my linux journey this January where I installed Slackware with XFCE. XFCE is great. I love the CDE style since I spent a vast majority of my time during my college years coding in Solaris. The problem was that I found myself using more and more KDE programs. Gnome/Gtk programs may have been more flashy, but definitely tend to be behind the curve in both features and usability. In addition, I really hated the lack of key bindings and the rigidity of the interface.

When KDE 3.2 came out I heard that it was significantly faster and less resource demanding. I made the switch just a couple of months ago and I was VERY impressed. I use gentoo now and optimized the build and I now get a very fast start up for both KDE and all KDE apps. I do hate the standard windoze style interface, but have since customized it to a CDE style. This was not so straightforward, but few DE/WMs could manage so much at all. Plus I get hot-keys and tab functions galore and don't have to use the mouse much at all..

Don't mistake static builds with pre-linking, they are similar but different. I've never liked the shared library concept. This was not even worth the saved space way back when windoze started doing it. It's what led to DLL hell.. and now leads to package/library hell. I saw BRAVO for more static linking. As far as pre-link.. I use cron to prelink my system once a week. The few GTK programs I use seem to benefit from it as well. Does that mean they're decreipt?

Re:some KDE myths

[msh104]

excuse me... but static linking applications would tripple it's size, if not more. just imagine konqy and the 44 libs it uses (on my system that is) compiled static together.. it would become VERY large. then add kicker, kdestop, kopete, amarok, kontact and all the programs it uses... it would cost you gigs of discspace for a decent kde install.

Re:some KDE myths

[Carewolf]

You cannot statically link KDE anymore. The whole architecture depends on loadable plugins.

Through a few hacks you probably statically link just libqt, libkdecore, libkdeui and libkio, except for Konqueror, I don't think the blow-up will be that bad. Remember that static links are optimized to only included the parts actually used.

Subversion support

[Nosf3ratu]

Nice to see some embedded support for Subversion. Not that I particularly like Subversion more than CVS, but it has some rather excellent features.

...no, I don't know why my Karma is terrible.

Re:Subversion support

[Nimrangul]

Your poor karma is easy to explain, it is because of the high number of Troll and Redundant posts you have, hell even your 4 Funny has a Troll and Flamebait in it.

I have Excellent karma because typically all I say are things like this; stuff which people are hard pressed to find insulting or inflamitory.

Unfortunately, I just ruined it by posting off topic.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

...no, I don't know why my Karma is terrible.

Well, I just looked at some of your past posts. I'm pretty sure that I know why. :p

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you so engrossed in your own karma that you can't see the system?
Just start claiming you own a mac. Say some stuff about OSX and IPODs and you'll have excellent karma in no time.
Works for me, and I wouldn't buy a apple product if you put a gun to my head.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Excellent karma because typically all I say are things like this; stuff which people are hard pressed to find insulting or inflamitory.

Actually most of your posts are conforming and redundant, but thanks to meta-moderation you have high karma.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

stuff which people are hard pressed to find insulting or inflamitory.

By which you mean redundant.

Re:Subversion support

[Megaweapon]

Actually most of your posts are conforming and redundant, but thanks to meta-moderation you have high karma.

Conformity and the reiteration of said conformity by the SlashBot masses is what slashdot is all about.

Re:Subversion support

[Nimrangul]

Redundant? Not really, someone else would need to have said the same thing first for my posts to be redundant (I admit that I have been redundant a couple times by a few minutes, but that is hardly most of my posts).

This isn't redundant.

Nor is this, though after reading it I wish I could edit it, oh such awful grammer.

My parental post here wasn't either; the one following it was, as it said basically the same thing as me.

Conforming, yes, I conform with people's standard views of what is reasonable and constructive and sometimes amusing, else I could not get anything high on the karma-whoring train.

Re:Subversion support

[cakefool]

Let me fetch my iMac10, we'll see if you change your tune...

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

Conforming, yes, I conform with people's standard views of what is reasonable and constructive and sometimes amusing, else I could not get anything high on the karma-whoring train.

Karma is a means not an end. You miss the point entirely, instead of posting your conforming pseudo-views, maybe you should post what you actually think. The idea is for intellectual, and interesting conversation, not some imaginary karma that returns you nothing in life. You truly are a karma whore, even by your own admission.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont be like the other nithing (morons) It has been known for some time now that

this site has GONE TO THE DOGS. Nothin else to see here. Move along....

Many of us know this. You are just too insecure to join that list..

Im tired of explaining it to you

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap you got modded down and you mentioned imac and the number 10. I think it's cause you didn't seperate them.
Try putting "jaguar", "panther", or even "I can't wait for 10.9!".

Re:Subversion support

[cakefool]

I hate to do this, but...

its a pun on the iMac, and the Mac10 - a gun...

I hate myself

Re:Subversion support

[aichpvee]

If only I had the mod points, that deserves so much better than an offtopic.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate you too.

But I love my iMac running iTunes on OS X 10.9 so I can transfer files to my mini-iPod. Steve Jobs is such a manly man! I love Apple!





Do you think it'll work?

Re:Subversion support

[Crazy_MYKL]

The irony in this being modded down is immense.

Re:Subversion support

[Anonymous Coward]

I was pleased to see this myself. I like Subversion, but it could use a little support otherwise no one will ever upgrade from CVS!

Re:Subversion support

[Nimrangul]

You misunderstand coward. I do not attempt to mould my posts to the whims of the masses, my posts simply are not offensive to them, thus the high karma score.

I am not selling my ass or anything like that, I am simply saying my mind and people don't dislike what I say.

What to expect, from the source

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem In Database Connection

Oh, OK.

Article text.....

[B5_geek]

Incase of slashdotting:

KDE 3.3.2 was tagged today, so we should see a new bug fix release of KDE in the first or second week of December. Earlier this past week, the plans for a KDE 3.4 release were also finalized. This will be the last major KDE 3 release before KDE 4. KDE 4 will make use of the Qt 4 library which promises to be quite a revolution for KDE and all Qt applications, but will break binary compatibility with previous releases.

The release schedule for KDE 3.4 plans for an alpha release December 3, a beta release January 7, and a final release March 16 2005. The 3.4 release will bring a large number of features and functionality enhancements over previous KDE 3 releases. Here are some of the features already implemented:
Hardware Support

- Support for special keyboard keys on Dell Inspiron and ASUS laptops.
- A new battery monitor (under development).
- media:/ addition to the KDE I/O subsystem to list devices on the system.
KHTML and Konqueror

Konqueror

- KHTML has undergone major work lately, though much of it will appear in KDE 3.3.2. Merging with Safari fixes continues, alone with new work and fixes by KDE developers. Site compatibility continues to improve, stability is very much improved, and KWallet no longer blocks Konqueror while waiting for a password.
- Support for multiple site logins with KWallet (for all protocols, but not HTML form completions yet) added.
- A notifier was added to visually indicate when user-agent spoofing is active.
- KHTML plug-ins are now configurable, so the user can selectively disable ones that are not used. This does not include Netscape-style plug-ins.
- Netscape plug-in in CPU usage can be manually lowered, and plug-ins are more stable.
- Over the past couple of months, confirmed KHTML and Konqueror bug reports have been on a significant decline as bugs are fixed more rapidly and fewer are reported.
E-Mail and Personal Information Management

- Major improvements in synchronization, including support for synchronizing between two PCs.
- Enhanced support for groupware servers, including Exchange 2000, OpenGroupware, Kolab 1 and 2, SLOX, Groupwise, and eGroupware.

SLOX

- XFace support for associating faces with mail and news articles.
- Blogging and journal support.
- KMail supports KWallet.
- Client-side IMAP search support.
- Improved drag and drop in KMail.
- Improved anti-spam support in KMail.
- Uncountable other e-mail, organizer and address-book enhancements.
Kopete

- Novell Groupwise and Lotus Sametime protocol support added.
- Support for adding URLs to bookmarks.
- Drag and drop of files and contacts.
- The NetMeeting plug-in now allows the use of arbitrary applications to start a chat.
- Support for incoming MSN messages that are handwritten.
- An adium look-alike chat window style.
KPDF

- KPDF includes new numerous new features including:
- New rendering engine.
- Optimizations and enhancements for zoom, search, and thumbnails.
- Better printing (using Postscript directly).
- Support for password protected PDFs.
- Image extraction support.
- Nicer user interface in general.
Libraries

- QCA - A complete cryptography architecture.
- Usage of GCC 3.4 symbol visibility functionality for much improved application startup time.
- Optimizations of various styles and other components.
- Cleanup and reworking of KJSEmbed to make it much more functional.
- Password dialog gives feedback on the relative strength of new passwords.
Desktop / General

- KDM theme support.
- Numerous window manager enhancements, including indicators for remote applications.
- Major Kicker panel reworking, with support for hiding tray icons.
- Empty password support (password-less wallets) in KWallet.

KWallett

- Support for setting the clock with NTP.
- Completely redesigned, more flexible trash system.
Other Cool Things We Might See

All of these feature

Re:Article text.....

[CerebusUS]

- Support for Apple's DNS based service discovery.

Oh please please please let this be configurable (as in, I want to toggle it OFF) so those of us who used "company.local" for our Active Directory domains can still browse them from KDE.

Slashdotted

[rekle]

The site is slashdotted already! :( Anyone know a mirror?

Re:Slashdotted

[Chuck Bucket]

Here's a mirror.

CB

I hope...

[strredwolf]

...they fix alot of old bugs with KDE, including no auto-refresh!

Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to prevent obvious karma whoring?

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Ed_Moyse]

Well, the site is down already and if he hadn't posted that then I wouldn't have been able to read the article. So I don't really think it's karma whoring.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[ErroneousBee]

Shouldnt you be posting this under your logon, so we can mod your whineing OT comments down?

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Nohea]

It is, since they get the +5 informative points.

Its not exactly informative, since there was no discussion, and the link was there at the top of the page.

We still could have read it if posted anonymously.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Diff AC, but umm... it is blatant KW. Every post has this. It gets old.

"In case of /.'ing" OOPS DID I POST THAT UNDER MY NICK???

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[SoTuA]

Why do you care that someone is so obsessed with karma that he/she does a copy/paste of the article text?

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[MORB]

The whole karma system is supposed to favor people who post pertinent stuff, and respect good etiquette. And this is important, because people with high karma are more likely to get moderation point.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[MarkRose]

But is pointing out that he wasn't karma whoring and getting modded to 4, Informative not karma whoring itself?

Of course, if this post gets modded up, I guess that would be karma whoring too. Oh the irony...

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[mAineAc]

I used to get moderation points. I haven't got any in about 6 months though. I don't understand this as I always meta moderate and I have excellent karma. I think the system is broke so it doesn't matter what anyone does anyway.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why do you care that someone is so obsessed with karma
> that he/she does a copy/paste of the article text?

Because it's a favourite tactic of the /. trolls. For any news story, post a copy of the article text with a note (valid or not) that the site has been /.ed. Watch as karma rockets up. When you've got enough karma points, you get mod points, and can start modding up other troll posts.

AC cannot moderate.

That's why.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Shouldnt you be posting this under your logon,
> so we can mod your whineing OT comments down?

You mean like your OT comment was modded down? No thanks.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[siliconjunkie]

There is one factor you are missing that /. takes into account: how often you visit slashdot. As I understand it, the closer you are to the "average" logged-in slashdot user, the better your chances of getting mod points (if you don't visit enough, or visit too much you have less of a chance for mod points). I can't remember where I read that, but from my own experience, it sounds about right.

Case in point: I had "positive" karma and visited slashdot four or five times a day (give or take a few visits). I got mod points twice a month for several months in a row. I set /. as my homepage, and visited ALOT more often when I was going through a stretch of unemployment, and (even though my Karma went to "Excellent" due to modding of my posts) I no longer got mod points (for months on end) because I was visiting too much. I got a new job, and changed my homepage, went back to visiting quite a bit, but not nearly as often as when I was unemployed, and *boom*, the FIRST DAY after /. was no longer my browsers home page...mod points. And again a week later. Interesting.

Re:Shouldn't this be posted Anonymously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why exactly would it be more virtuous for him to post anonymously? If you don't think it should be modded up at all, then your issue is with the moderators. If you do think it should be +5 then, well, that's how moderation works. If it's worth being +5, you get karma for it.

Real Window Managers

[SlashdotMirrorer]

I know I'll probably be modded down as flamebait for promoting alternative window managers in a KDE message thread, but I think it might be a good time for the every day user to take a look at how bearded terminal hackers are making things more efficient. Many "LINUX power users" are making their every day work more efficient by using and developing great window managers such as EvilWM, which I am currently typing this post up in.

Maybe a grassroots movement towards simpler window managers is in order. This would be a movement similar to what Bruce Perens trailblazed for GNU/Linux back in the early nineties to fight the onslaught of OS2 and Win 3.1. Now that we have a stable system to build upon after all of these years, we should concentrate on a good user interface. Not necessarily a Desktop User Interface, but a thin, lightweight interface that allows the user to more efficiently do their work without any messy cognitive analogies.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an idea... why don't people use what appeals to them without any grassroots movements or appeals or campaigns?

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody knows that the root of all politics is grass. Hemp has fueled political debate for the better part of the last three decades. Therefore the only way to successfuly solve the window manager conundrum is to legalize it. I mean, if windowmanagers aren't political, then I don't know what is pot flavored then.

Re:Real Window Managers

[zenmojodaddy]

Good call. The problem I have with both KDE and GNOME is that some packages offered as part of the desktop are so dependent on various other components that they're unusable on their own. I don't use GNOME at all but have had to install the full shebang when I install Slackware, because working out the various dependencies for a few packages is just too much work.

If Microsoft integrates a browser with a file manager, or hints at integrating a media player or anything else in the OS, everyone cries foul, so why is that considered good practice in the major *nix environments?

I'd much rather see a truly modular system, so the the user is free to pick and choose a window manager, a file manager, a browser, a messenger etc. and have them all play nice together, regardless of whether they are part of KDE or GNOME or standalone projects.

For the record: Slackware, Fluxbox and ROX-Filer all the way, baby.

Re:Real Window Managers

[nick korma]

I am not what you would call an experianced Linux user so my opinion here is probably worthless - but when I have used linux - Suse, Mandrake, Knoppix, Gnoppix and more recently Morphix I have always found KDE to be a little hectic (hence the Gnoppix and Morphix use) - I know that you can change the fonts etc but I like a more rounded gui (this is all probably possible i know) I like the curves and welcoming feel of Gnome far more - I am currently playing around with a few live distro's before taking the plunge and installing it as my primary OS at home (Stuck on XP at work) just my ten cents worth

Re:Real Window Managers

[daijo78]

Have Slackware. Have Fluxbox. Got to check out that ROX-Filer thing then I guess:)

Re:Real Window Managers

[a_karbon_devel_005]

Bleh.

1) KDE != WM. Repeat after me: "KDE IS NOT A WINDOW MANAGER." It's a desktop environment and it does way, WAY more than a simple WM. God it's 2004 people, HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED THIS YET?

2) The IMMENSE proliferation of small, lightweight WMs has ALWAYS been active in the Linux community. EvilWM, IceWM, TWM, BlackBox, FluxBox, Waimea, Kahaki, etc. etc. etc. There is really NO NEED for any more WMs to "get back to basics" THEY'RE ALREADY OUT THERE. Most of them are damned good as they are. Real users want MORE features at this point, these kind of posts are just counter productive. It's 2004. People want to USE the 2.4Ghz 64 bit Athlon they just bought (for cheap). Mom doesn't want fluxbox, she wants her computer to put up a little CDROM icon when she inserts one into her computer. Congrats KDE team on making an efficient, fun, functional DE.

Re:Real Window Managers

[a_karbon_devel_005]

I'd much rather see a truly modular system, so the the user is free to pick and choose a window manager, a file manager, a browser, a messenger etc. and have them all play nice together, regardless of whether they are part of KDE or GNOME or standalone projects.

You can use a different window manager in KDE than kwin, as long as it's standards compliant.
You don't HAVE to use Konqueror in KDE.
You don't HAVE to use Kopete. You don't even have to install it.
MS bundles tend to be UNREMOVABLE from the system. That's the difference. KDE is just a collection of libraries. Some applications don't work all that well without certain other applications, but you're not FORCED to use/install most of them. And there must be SOME interoperability between the applications to get a smooth, polished DE. But really it's not as bad as you make out.

Re:Real Window Managers

[rseuhs]

[..] more efficient

Yeah right. So instead of Konqueror being preloaded and popping up in half a second (still too long, but bearable) I have to load a standalone browser and wait for 5 seconds or longer.

Same goes for filemanagers of course.

Yes, if you don't run any serious applications alternatives might be "more efficient", but Konqueror running on KDE is by far the fastest browser on Linux.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to see one, code it. Otherwise, shaddap and stop your whining and get a job.

Re:Real Window Managers

[SlipJig]

I agree. I prefer to use Enlightenment (btw, DR17 is now in CVS!), and one problem I've run into is that if I try to fire up Nautilus, it stomps all over the E desktop and pulls up the Gnome desktop instead... well, actually it's a kind of weird fusion, with the Gnome background and icons but E stuff there as well.

I do like E's eye candy, but am sympathetic to the parent poster's argument for a leaner, cleaner desktop/WM. Many of E's themes are over-the-top, but at least it's flexible and fast enough to support a lean environment. E runs at least twice as fast on my machine as either Gnome or KDE.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Walles]

working out the various dependencies for a few packages is just too much work

If you think working out package dependencies by hand is a mess (I definitely agree), why are you using Slackware? On Debian Testing, over 16000 packages are just an "apt-get install foo" away.

If Microsoft integrates a browser with a file manager, or hints at integrating a media player or anything else in the OS, everyone cries foul, so why is that considered good practice in the major *nix environments?

When Microsoft does that, it's an attempt at unfairly strengthening their monopoly. When KDE or GNOME does the same, that's their fair attempts at gaining market share.

Being a convicted monopolist makes all the difference.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Seli]

First of all, I suggest you find out what the difference between a desktop environment and a window manager is.

I wonder, what exactly are you trying to say with the title "Real window managers"? That KDE doesn't have a real (whatever that is supposed to mean) window manager? How comes then users of all those real window managers moan (http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/ 11/29/171204 - search for not stealing focus or opening new applications on the virtual desktop they were started on) about (lack of) window manager features KDE's window manager has had since some time already?

And, you know, features have their costs. Imagining my mum or sister using EvilWM (presumably together with xterm, right?), that's not even funny ... that's cruel.

Re:Real Window Managers

[SyntheticTruth]

"If Microsoft integrates a browser with a file manager, or hints at integrating a media player or anything else in the OS, everyone cries foul, so why is that considered good practice in the major *nix environments?"

But KDE *does not* tie the browser to the OS, it ties the browser to the *desktop* and there is a *HUGE* difference in that. I can't think of any part of Konqueror that directly makes calls to kernel functions (though admittingly I have not dove deep into the code.)

MSIE is a beast that is *tied* to the kernel, uses kernel internals, and thus, is bad. I have yet to see *any* *nix desktop/window manager that does such a thing.

Re:Real Window Managers

[herc_mk2]

The problem I have with both KDE and GNOME is that some packages offered as part of the desktop are so dependent on various other components that they're unusable on their own.

The problem I have with both KDE (which I use) and GNOME is that they both require that ancient bloatware package known as "The X Window System."

Much as I dislike Microsoft Windows, the Win32 GDI (which ain't that much different from the Win16 GDI) is very thin and provides more than enough functionality and device independence for 99.9% of the users out there. How often do you need to run an X app across the wire? How many times do you need to support multiple displays and screens (OK, this is slashdot, so I know some of you do -- I have myself, but it's very rare).

I'd love to see a thin, fast, cross-platform replacement for X.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Daengbo]

You need to use nautilus --no-desktop. That should fix your problem with the icons.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

Great trollin'. You managed to get quite a few mods :-)

Re:Real Window Managers

[diamondsw]

Okay, show me how to replace the "window manager" and "file manager" in Windows? Or Mac OS X? Modularity is all well and good, but I don't see why KDE or Gnome - which aim to provide an entire "desktop experience" - should support ripping themselves to pieces.

As for strange interdependencies between "higher level" packages, that's just standard Linux dependency insanity - nothing to do with Gnome. I have a command-line only Gentoo system (only containing sudo, bash, and nano) that is insisting on installing X11 and Gnome because some utility had it marked as a dependency. That's just life with Linux and its idea of "something is dependent or not", rather than "this is essential, these packages are optional for added functionality".

Re:Real Window Managers

[TheLoneGundam]

The problem you describe is not a window manager problem, but a problem with installation tools. I do not know if this exists in any Linux, but in the installation tool I use for z/OS (SMP/E Systems Modification Program Extended) they have a simple operand to use when installing any piece of software or patch (actually the meta-term for both is 'systems modification' and they work similarly) that says "install this piece, and any prerequisite or corequisite pieces". The products and fixes ship with modification control statements describing such dependencies. This was all developed because of the kinds of complex dependencies you are describing. There was once an "Ask Slashdot" posting about what IBM could do to help Linux .. helping out in the installation area, while not "sexy", is definitely one place they could really help. They've been managing complex software interdependencies for decades now, I think they have some expertise to bring to the table.

Re:Real Window Managers

[rmull]

actually...

app load times in kde has historically been a big problem. It's due to the way the library loader works with c++ apps. The current solution is "kdeinit", which is kind of a hack, but the right way to do it is to have improved control over what exactly is exported from a library, which gcc 3.4 gives.

Re:Real Window Managers

[0racle]

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire?
So often the MS added remote desktop, which I use often through the week.

How many times do you need to support multiple displays and screens
Every day, I have multiple monitors at work.

ancient bloatware package known as "The X Window System."
Please explain how X is bloated.

I'd love to see a thin, fast, cross-platform replacement for X.
Well from this post I gather you want an X that doesn't have support for things that are finnaly being added into other OS's because they're usefull, and you are of course free to write one. You can have your barely useable X, but I use these features of X that you have deemed 'bloat.'

Re:Real Window Managers

[zenmojodaddy]

Correct, KDE is not a window manager. It is a desktop environment, which tries to provide a rich user experience. Great. If it helps entice people to user Linux, or the BSDs for that matter, great.

There are many light window managers. Also correct. I'm not disputing any of this. Nor am I disputing that there are a lot of kool packages (sorry!) in KDE. I just wish it were easier to extract only the packages I like and use them without having to install the whole deal. As I said, I also have the same problem with GNOME, so I'm not picking on KDE.

Maybe I shouldn't have replied to a post titled "REAL WINDOW MANAGERS"...

Re:Real Window Managers

[Hatta]

The problem I have with both KDE (which I use) and GNOME is that they both require that ancient bloatware package known as "The X Window System."

X is not bloated. It's the toolkits. Try running a lightweight window manager (fluxbox, icewm, etc). It's damn snappy. X can run on the most minimal machines and even PDAs.

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire?

Every day. X needs better network transparancy, not less. Keep in mind that for local delivery, X uses unix domain sockets which impose no observable overhead.

How many times do you need to support multiple displays and screens

Again, every day. And again, if you don't use them, it doesn't hurt you any.

(OK, this is slashdot, so I know some of you do -- I have myself, but it's very rare).

What's next then? X is slow because of virtual desktops? Makes about as much sense as your other objections.

Re:Real Window Managers

[ajs318]

I too got hit with dependencies on Slackware. What I found you have to do is find the file that won't run due to unmet dependencies, and then go

$ ldd /path/to/foo

Make a note of what libraries are missing, and search on the Slackware web site to find the package they belong to. Then use wget and installpkg as necessary. You could probably automate the process.

Alternatively, you could run Debian {bye-bye, my cred with the Slackware fans .....} You can even copy most of an ex-Slackware userland {not the software, but the config and data files} onto a Debian install and expect it to work. IMHO, there's not a lot to choose between the two anymore -- Slackware used to only need 4MB RAM, but now it needs 16MB RAM.

Re:Real Window Managers

[runderwo]

If Microsoft integrates a browser with a file manager, or hints at integrating a media player or anything else in the OS, everyone cries foul, so why is that considered good practice in the major *nix environments?

Easy. Because product bundling and product tying are not equivalent, and because KDE does not have a disproportionately large market share which would cast even more suspicion on such actions.

Re:Real Window Managers

[cortana]

An app that didn't make any calls to the kernel wouldn't be able to do much...

To see what system calls Konqueror makes, run 'strace -f konqueror'. This won't catch them all, of course, becuase KDE relies on other processes to do a lot of its work. You can start an X server with xterm as the only client, and do 'strace -f startkde' to see the lot.

Of course, one can always apt-get remove konqueror if one doesn't want it installed, the rest of KDE will not stop working. Try that with Internet Explorer. :)

WRT to MSIE using 'kernel internals': is there actually any documented evidence of when/where/why it does this? Internet Explorer probably uses the "Native API" *less* than a typical Unix process would use system calls; where Mozilla would open(2) a file, IE would call the OpenFile Win32 API, which would be handled by the Win32 server (csrss.exe, IIRC).

Re:Real Window Managers

[Raphael]

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire? How many times do you need to support multiple displays and screens (OK, this is slashdot, so I know some of you do -- I have myself, but it's very rare).

Let's see... Every day I have two or three XTerms on different machines from which I launch some editors (emacs, xemacs) and various graphical programs (purify, xcompare). Then I also have a mail client (sylpheed) running from yet another machine through ssh X forwarding and sometimes also a web browser (FireFox) running remotely from that machine. I even run the GIMP remotely at least once per week. And I do a lot of copy and paste between these applications running on different boxes. Basically, it would be hard for me to work without the network transparency offered by X. Should I also mention that these boxes run different operating systems (Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD) and use different processor architectures?

Granted, I may not be a typical user and as you pointed out, some Slashdot visitors are likely to do unusual things. But for me, relying on X to work accross the wire is not very rare - it's what I need every day.

So the fact that KDE and GNOME rely on X is a feature, from my point of view. I wouldn't mind if a replacement for X would be added as an option, but I don't think that I would use it.

Re:Real Window Managers

[happyemoticon]

I don't know, I *generally* use Fluxbox, but I swap back and forth between that and KDE depending on the time of the month. Fluxbox is nice, fast, and runs all of my apps, but I've got some aesthetic/interface issues with it:

• Way too angular-looking
• Have not yet found a lightweight, fast VT that can copy & paste into other apps (is this too much to ask?)
• Workspaces need to be organized in a straight line?
• Rox-Filer is kind of weird and counterintuitive

Besides, since I just went from 512=>1024 ram, KDE is plenty fast, and I'm very in love with OOo 1.3-kde. I find all of the other WMs either too stripped down (fvwm), too baroque (e16), or too weird (icewm, and gnome for that matter).

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wish it were easier to extract only the packages I like and use them without having to install the whole deal. As I said, I also have the same problem with GNOME, so I'm not picking on KDE.

One nice thing about modern desktops is that they provide the development infrastructure to develop apps for that desktop without reimplementing the functions all over again when you want your app to use the framework.

Dependencies? Yeah. Advantages? Enough to compensate them.

Just consider how big the apps would be if they didn't rely on previously created libraries. There is a lot of redundancy taken out of the code.

Re:Real Window Managers

[tzanger]

I disagree... As one of the "bearded terminal hackers" (well without the beard, but from that generation) I moved to KDE back in the 3.0 days because I just got tired of using bits and pieces and getting a patchwork windowing system. I was (still am actually) an ardent WindowMaker fan but back at the time I made this choice I wanted a cohesive desktop. I wanted the apps to look and work similarly and I wanted the flexibility to bust out and completely customize whatever facet of the experience I needed. KDE does all that and more for me, and in a way that I haven't been able to replicate with other WMs.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Coryoth]

The problem I have with both KDE (which I use) and GNOME is that they both require that ancient bloatware package known as "The X Window System."

What, exactly, is wrong with the X Window System? It's not bloat - X gets used on handheld and embedded devices. It's not that the network transparency slows it down - when connecting to a local server X uses shared memory on the machine and doesn't go through any network calls. Speed? Now we're talking implementation issues, but X has been getting better on that front since it finally moved on from XFree86 as the default implementation on Linux. More importantly, in raw rendering speed, X is actually faster than windows. Percieved lack of speed is more due to some lingering X rendering issues (which Keith Packard is fixing), and the toolkits that run on top.

Sure X isn't ideal - nothing is, but it is a hell of a lot better than most stuff out there, and it certainly has many advantages over Win32 GDI.

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire?

Every damn day! Just because you don't use this feature doesn't mean it isn't (a) immensely valuable, (b) used regularly by everyone else. It is not at all uncommon for me to have a desktop full of apps, where each app is actually running on a different machine. X lets me do that, and have a perfetly seamless desktop as if all the apps were running locally. That is a huge advantage.

I'd love to see a thin, fast, cross-platform replacement for X.

X is surprisingly thin - more so than Windows, which has Win32 GDI tied in to everything else. X runs on embedded devices - how slim do you want? X is fast - run some raw render benchmarks for yourself. X is cross platform. I've run X servers on Windows, on Mac, on Linux, on Solaris, on AIX, and on BSD. They all connect to each other happily with no complaints. Show me Win32 GDI doing anything similar.

Jedidiah.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

MSIE is a beast that is *tied* to the kernel, uses kernel internals, and thus, is bad. I have yet to see *any* *nix desktop/window manager that does such a thing.

Bzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing.

IE is not tied into the Windows kernel at all. It is tied in various ways into the overall Windows user interface, but everything about IE happens in user mode.

If you're going to flame Microsoft, at least flame them for their actual sins. They're guilty of so many real ones, I don't understand why people feel compelled to create imaginary ones to complain about.

Re:Real Window Managers

[tzanger]

But KDE *does not* tie the browser to the OS, it ties the browser to the *desktop* and there is a *HUGE* difference in that. I can't think of any part of Konqueror that directly makes calls to kernel functions (though admittingly I have not dove deep into the code.)

Actually Konqueror is tied in to KDE pretty damn tightly but it's done in a good way... All the ioslaves can be used outside of Konqueror and Konqueror can be replaced with Firefox or nautilus or whatever you want... But Konqueoror's always there helping out.

Re:Real Window Managers

[uslinux.net]

Actually, I believe you could even run konqueror in Gnome if you wanted to, though what you'd end up with is konqueror loading tons of kde programs (like kdeinit) in order to start. Just like how nautilus works in KDE.

Re:Real Window Managers

[joib]

I just wish it were easier to extract only the packages I like and use them without having to install the whole deal.


With disk space costing less than $1/GB, I don't see the point of your argument.

As for old computers with small disks, well tough. The KDE/GNOME apps are probably too heavy for them anyways.

Re:Real Window Managers

[PoprocksCk]

"Have not yet found a lightweight, fast VT that can copy & paste into other apps"

Huh? Just hilight the text and middle-click into the app you want to paste the text in.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Raphael]

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire?

Every day. X needs better network transparancy, not less. Keep in mind that for local delivery, X uses unix domain sockets which impose no observable overhead.

I will grant to the grandparent post that X adds some overhead for the applications that have to send a large amount of rapidly-changing data to the display (e.g., games). The problem is that even if relatively efficient techniques such as unix domain sockets are used, updating the display frequently does require several context switches between the client application, the kernel and the X server.

But this only applies to a small number of applications. For most of them, the overhead is probably less than 1% of time taken by the application to do other stuff. And for the applications that require fast display updates, then there are several X extensions that have been specifically designed for that (e.g., DGA). Of course, using these extensions require more programming effort beyond what is provided by the common toolkits (Qt or GTK+) and you lose the cross-platform nature and network transparency of X, but it is possible to write fast applications based on X if you need to.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anne Thwacks]

Real users want MORE features at this poin

Real users don't want applications dependent on downloading bucketloads of Audio crap when their hardware doesn't even have a sound card.

Many work environments do not allow sound, and why should we have all this aRts stuff unnecesarily?

Re:Real Window Managers

[beforewisdom]

I know I'll probably be modded down as flamebait for promoting alternative window managers in a KDE message thread, but I think it might be a good time for the every day user to take a look at how bearded terminal hackers are making things more efficient. Many "LINUX power users" are making their every day work more efficient by using and developing great window managers such as EvilWM,

I used to think like that and be religious about using icewm, eventhough I had a powerful machine.

Then one day I gave KDE a try. It only took me 10 min to set up my desktop, I got nicer results, and some nice frills.

I have been a KDE convertee since then.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Roberto]

-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 39220 nov 16 21:35 /usr/bin/kdeinit

You know, kdeinit doesn't actually do anything. It's just a way to get libraries into memory faster.

Re:Real Window Managers

[rseuhs]

I don't really care wether it's a "hack", it solves the problem and that's the only thing that counts.

Re:Real Window Managers

[FooBarWidget]

Because Microsoft is a monopoly, and Linux is not. Such is the law. End of story.

Re:Real Window Managers

[minus_273]

if anyone wants to see X run on a handheld, check out gpe.hanhelds.org

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

3) You can swtich out KWin (KDE window manager) with whatever you want. I have enlightenment running as my WM in KDE.

Yes I have the RAM to support this wickedly fattening food. :)

-mo

Re:Real Window Managers

[JabberWokky]

Even more to the point, Konqueror is a container app, similar to... say /bin/sh. It loads various KViews for different document types. These KViews are equally available to any app, and can be replaced. For instance, you can use Gecko instead of KHTML when viewing html. You can remove the file KView and wind up with just a browser (okay, it will also let you view Audio CDs with virtual mp3 and ogg directories so you can drag and drop rip, and a whole slew of other KViews - you've have to remove all but KHTML).

Basically, KDE is written under the *nix philosophy of "many small apps working together". DCOP allows anything - even bash scripts - to be KDE apps.

--
Evan

Re:Real Window Managers

[Grishnakh]

I think you're a little confused. As others have pointed out, MSIE isn't tied to the kernel, just to other things in the OS.

The real difference between Konqueror/KDE and MSIE/Windows is that Konqueror and KDE are optional, and can be removed from the OS without affecting other (non-KDE) applications. Windows can't be pared down like this.

If I want to build a small embedded computer that uses a simple nonstandard GUI on a touchscreen, it's fairly easy to do that in Linux. Just don't install all the KDE/Gnome stuff, and it won't be wasting either disk space or (more importantly) memory. That's not possible in Windows, where you're stuck with IE and everything else that a normal desktop user would want. (And before the Windows fans start yelling) Yes, it is possible to get a special "embedded" version of windows that is customizable, it costs big bucks, and is only available to developers. I can download the latest full-blown SuSE or Red Hat version, and during the install choose only the minimal packages I need, leaving out all the bloat. The bottom line here is "modularity". Linux has it, Windows doesn't.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, I personally could not live without being able to use ssh to my home machine to run remote apps from there. KDE is awesome for remote desktops too with the fish://.

Re:Real Window Managers

[bsartist]

That's just life with Linux and its idea of "something is dependent or not", rather than "this is essential, these packages are optional for added functionality".

That might well be life with Gentoo, but it's not the case with Debian. Apt packages can have both "required" and "suggested" prerequisites.

Re:Real Window Managers

[iceburn]

I'd much rather see a truly modular system, so the the user is free to pick and choose a window manager, a file manager, a browser, a messenger etc. and have them all play nice together, regardless of whether they are part of KDE or GNOME or standalone projects.

I agree, that's exactly why I use xfce. For instance, I didn't like the default taskbar that comes with xfce. Its lacking in functionality, you can't even right-click on a task to minimize, close, etc. So, I just edited the startxfce4 script, commented out the entry for xftaskbar, and added an entry for gnome-panel. It even uses the gtk theme I've selected through xfce.

And the file manager that comes with xfce is... ugh... weird. So, I just use ROX-Filer. Works great with xfce.

If you like icons on your desktop, you can use iDesk. Its really really flexible. I have icons for various directories and devices on my desktop, single-left-click to open it in ROX, single-right-click to open in in an xterm. It can do a buttload of other stuff too.

In case anybody is interested, this is my setup: xfce 4, ROX-Filer (I think the link is http://rox.sourceforge.net/ but it seems to be down at the moment...), gnome-panel, xfwm, and iDesk. And it runs relatively fast on my old 366mhz laptop which is a huge plus.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, I really like KDE as well.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

updating the display frequently does require several context switches between the client application, the kernel and the X server.

Context switches are not an issue unless you're painting individual pixels onto the framebuffer -- which is going to be slow as a snail in molasses anyway because of function call overhead...

Re:Real Window Managers

[shadow303]

Gentoo is capable of having optional dependencies. The only problem is sometimes the crack-smoking package maintainers make more things mandatory than they should.

Re:Real Window Managers

[IncohereD]

Real users don't want applications dependent on downloading bucketloads of Audio crap when their hardware doesn't even have a sound card.

Many work environments do not allow sound, and why should we have all this aRts stuff unnecesarily?

This is why you install Gentoo with "-arts -esound", etc.

*ducks*....

Re:Real Window Managers

[IncohereD]

I just wish it were easier to extract only the packages I like and use them without having to install the whole deal. As I said, I also have the same problem with GNOME, so I'm not picking on KDE.

Personally I was shocked at how tiny, say, MonoDevelop is, because of all the dependencies. Where something like Eclipse or OpenOffice is just MASSIVE, because they don't depend on anything.

I finally just switched to using GTK apps only to avoid having both the Gnome/KDE and KDE/QT dependency trees installed (mainly since my only really necessary apps - Mozilla and Gnucash - are gtk). Once you've installed a few apps, you're usually looking at maybe 10 megs per app, and maybe a few megs of new sets of bindings.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Jesus_666]

I'd be happy if I could just have KWrite without having to install aRts.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

I know I'll probably be modded down as flamebait for promoting alternative window managers in a KDE message thread

You should be. Saying something like "I don't use KDE because [x], however [y] suits me perfectly, so I use that" is fine. Breaking out the pom-poms for your favourite WM simply because a competitor is talked about is not fine.

Maybe a grassroots movement towards simpler window managers is in order.

You do that. I think you'll find that most people prefer features to simplicity. As long as a DE (KDE is not a window manager) is not too complicated, the extra features win out. And KDE is a long way away from being too complicated IMHO.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. KDE integrates the web browser with the desktop in the sense that it provides a standard way to reach the web browser page renderer.

It is easy to change the actual browser being used, as demostrated by the folks who integrated Gecko in KDE recently. And when you change you change in *all* programs that needs to render HTML.

That is a feature.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

Another part of the solution is 'prelink'. It's an admittedly ugly solution (you need to run it every time you update something KDE-related), but oh so much nicer KDE gets.

Re:Real Window Managers

[master_p]

"it certainly has many advantages over Win32 GDI"

Some clarifications are in place...

First of all, Win32 windows draw on device contexts, not on graphics contexts. A window output can be printed as is, without needing support for postscript graphics.

Win32 regions are much faster than X regions.

Each window in the Win32 environment has a totally user-defined coordinate space. That's a lot of help for applications that need to have the Y coordinate inverted.

The Win32 GUI is scalable: changing the font size will scale all windows without changing the looks of the GUI.

The Win32 GUI environment is certainly not tied to everything else as you imply. You can use it without using anything else from Win32.

Win32 runs on embedded devices, too (Windows CE).

X does not have a standard toolkit like Win32 does.

Cut-n-paste does not work across all X apps, like in Windows.

X-Windows does not have transparency.

The X-Window system is good for what it does, but it could have been much better. Here is a list of missing features or features to update:

1) real alpha blending
2) device independence
3) clear-type
4) server-side extensions (like complex widgets running on the server)
5) a standard widget toolkit
6) data types (for OLE and global cut-n-paste/drag-n-drop)

The networked feature of X is fine and should stay. Windows suck at GUI networking, and solutions like the Terminal Server are just hacks. But as a single GUI desktop environment, it is the best.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Billly Gates]

A windowmanager is a windowmanager.

KDE or Gnome is a whole integrated environment! Big difference.

Kde is a little bloated and so are the later releases of gnome unfortunately. The new support for c++ symbols in gcc3.4 will make KDe much faster. About time that gnu c/c++ and gnu software which is only 10 years behind commercial software is finally doing these things.

OS/2 and Windows offer limited functionality due to their age and I think kde 1.x and gnome 1.x offer similiar functionaility and features.

If you do not like an integrated environment than use a wm or start a terminal and do what you need to do. Not everyone is a beared Unix admin who has a need to run batch jobs.

Thats the great thing about Unix or Linux. The power is in your hands if you do not like something unlike Windows. Dont use it.

If you never design a system for anyone but beared unix admins then no one else but them will use it.

There are many geek uses too for a full integrated environment including scripting support for gui apps(kde is leaps and bounds ahead of windows in this area), to apps using the same protocal to communicate, to development work where using including code from kde or gnome libs instead of writing your own, can save alot of time. You do not get that with a wm. The exception is gnustep which is a clone of nextstep which is very out of date and limited for obvious reasons.

Also if you need to do things like write documentation for a program you can use kthml's libraries to accomplish the task quickly for your users.

Kde can organize yours apps in the title bar and you can zoom each icon by moving your mouse cursor. This and other enhancements make work easier.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Billly Gates]

Have you used previous versions of X11 before 2001?

No true type font support, poor graphics performance, hell to write any code with the api, no sound support, no 3d support, slow as hell even on fast systems, etc.

FOr a good laugh read what the authors of the Unix Haters manual have to say about it?

X is not that bad but the FreeX86 X11R6 is a poor implementation but it is improving. Ask anyone who uses X on another platform? True type font support and support for Mesa finally made it in during the last few years. Hopefully Xorg will improve it.

THere has been talk several years ago about the Berlin project which was going to be a replacement for X and would be moddeled after Apple's aqua. Unfortunately it was written in an obscure langauge called Forth so no one knew how to work on it. THe project was abandoned.

Win32 GDI as buggy as it is can run on a 486 with 8 megs of ram. Can Xfree86 do that?

Re:Real Window Managers

[Coryoth]

Have you used previous versions of X11 before 2001?

Yes, though it was mostly Sun's X server that I was using back then. Hell, I remember using X in the early 90s. There are a lot of different implementations, some better than others. XFree86 really stagnated a bit a while ago, but things are moving again with Xorg.

THere has been talk several years ago about the Berlin project which was going to be a replacement for X and would be moddeled after Apple's aqua. Unfortunately it was written in an obscure langauge called Forth so no one knew how to work on it. THe project was abandoned.

It wasn't abandoned. I am not sure what gave you that idea. It was, however, renamed to Fresco, and is still in development. I followed Berlin development since about 1998. It has been very slow, but the concept is nice. I doubt it will ever become mainstream. Far more likely is improvements to existing X implementations, and new and better extensions (see Keith Packard's latest work).

Win32 GDI as buggy as it is can run on a 486 with 8 megs of ram. Can Xfree86 do that?

Yes, I believe it can.

Jedidiah.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, that has irked me quite a few times. When I want to install Kmail, I need the PIM (personal information management?) KDE package. This in turn needs the freaking PDA stuff, like palm pilot, sync and even some freaking nokia libraries! I don't even own a nokia or palm!

Tels

Re:Real Window Managers

[Anonymous Coward]

> X is not bloated. It's the toolkits.

Right, X is perfectly suitible for running winner apps like xclock and xterm.

However the fact that it HAS NOT scaled to the featureset needed for modern toolkis is a serious problem (with X, not the toolkits).

Re:Real Window Managers

[Matt_Joyce]

"Real users want..."

OK, this is where I stop reading.

Re:Real Window Managers

[SlipJig]

Will try that - thanks!

Re:Real Window Managers

[Mad_Rain]

How often do you need to run an X app across the wire?

Every day. X needs better network transparancy, not less. Keep in mind that for local delivery, X uses unix domain sockets which impose no observable overhead.

A little offtopic: I don't know if you've tried this out or not, but I've been using NX server for a bit, and it makes using X from a remote location lots more usable. It's pretty cool. There are free packages for Debian (look for FreeNX), I think it's included in Knoppix now, and you can search for other packages too (like for Fedora).

Re:Real Window Managers

[drsquare]

That's not the point though, the point is, you can't use Konqueror or any of the KDE programs without having KDE installed, and without KDE's bloated libraries having to load everytime you use even the smallest utility. The same goes for Gnome. At any point, you may have several sets of libraries loaded, all doing exactly the same thing but in slightly different ways.

MS bundles tend to be UNREMOVABLE from the system.

If you're using a program that relies on Gnome libraries, then Gnome is UNREMOVABLE from your system. The same goes for KDE.

Re:Real Window Managers

[drsquare]

Great, so when you select Nautilus from the menu, you chose the --no-desktop option? Oh wait, you can't use command line options in the GUI. The only way to do that is to delve into the deepest settings and add the --no-desktop.

Also, how would a newbie know about this --no-desktop setting? They'd just see their desktop ruined by a single program. If a simple program on Windows destroyed your background and icons, you'd all be laughing at how awful Microsoft were, and praising Linux.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Daengbo]

"You all" is a little general... I think that this is stupid default behaviour. Nautilus should just start in "browse home directory" mode and allow --desktop. I don't think that a newbie will be running Enlightenment, like the GP, so it's not a problem. In Gnome, it all just works perfectly.

Re:Real Window Managers

[a_karbon_devel_005]

"That's not the point though, the point is, you can't use Konqueror or any of the KDE programs without having KDE installed, and without KDE's bloated libraries having to load everytime you use even the smallest utility." You're exaggerating or you don't understand what you're talking about. EVERY PROGRAM needs the libraries necessary to do their job. Either you have replication of those libraries all over, or you use common ones. If you're going to use Konqueror, SURE you need some base libraries, but you'd be surprised how many KDE programs will run in one form or another with just kdelibs and kdebase.

Re:Real Window Managers

[Roguelazer]

1) real alpha blending
-- Has this with XCOMPOSITE

2) device independence
-- PostScript/similar output would be nice, yes. Maybe we'll "impliment" it from Mac OS one of these days, like Windows did.

3) clear-type
-- Has this with FreeType, had it before MS had ClearType

4) server-side extensions (like complex widgets running on the server)
-- That's why we have toolkits. X is a Protocol.

5) a standard widget toolkit
-- Why would you want that? I hate Qt, lots of people hate gtk+. I wouldn't want to have to pick one...

6) data types (for OLE and global cut-n-paste/drag-n-drop)
-- We have XDND (a decent drag-n-drop implimentation) and copy-and-paste between every X app I've ever used...

-1 Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

An Alpha release is due any minute so you might as well know what you're in for if you're a loyal K head.

A half ass windowing system that isn't even up to par with windows 95 or OS 9?

KDE Again!

[jon855]

Welome back KDE, now it got to fight for my GNOME space... I just hope KDE won't be as bloated s before. god bless Gnome and KDE users all alike.

the Devil is in the Details

[DarkSarin]

which is what this article lacks. Don't get me wrong--there is some cool information there, but I want to see screenies of the entire desktop--has that changed much or not?

I would also like more information about the core KDE, not just the peripheral stuff like Konq & KHTML.

All that said, the idea of a new version of KDE is fairly kool, but frankly, as an XFCE user (and occasionally Gnome), I find the KDE desktop & icons to be just a shade on the kludgy side. They don't look as clean or professional in my mind.

But that's just one geek's opinion.

Re:the Devil is in the Details

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the KDE desktop & icons to be just a shade on the kludgy side.

The icons and the general look are easy to be configured to ones liking. I don't say that one has to like KDE, but "I don't like the icons" is not a very godd reason... :)

Re:the Devil is in the Details

[Carewolf]

It is not that interesting because we usually don't change the look on minor releases. For KDE 3.4 you can expect a new much faster Plastik widget-set to be the default.

If you look closer, there are some nice details though. For instance the symbol hiding, which will speed-up applications start of all KDE applications.

Re:the Devil is in the Details

[mattyrobinson69]

kde is amazingly configurable (i have my transparent kickers down the left and across the top), i'd list all the things ive changed from default but i just cant be botherd.

you can change the icons to something else, have a look at kde-look.org.

XFCE is pretty cool though, for my girlfriends old p1-mmx 233mhz machine.

Slashdotted already

[Sesse]

Use Coral (given that they manage to get through at least once and cache the page) :-)

/* Steinar */

Re:Slashdotted already

[mhesseltine]

Not that anybody actually reads the FAQ, but wouldn't information on using Coral be something good to put in the FAQ, under the section on submitting stories?

Then, if (and this is a BIG if) the editors were to view the page (using the Coral link) before posting the story to the front page, the Coral cache would have had a chance to get to the page before the /. effect took place.

And, while I'm offtopic to the main discussion; how about a Slashdot.org story, maybe once a month, where discussions about Slashdot could take place. This would let people discuss how Slashdot works in a particular forum, instead of having to venture offtopic.

Konqueror + Gecko?

[ScriptMonkey]

Does anyone know if this will include Konquerer with the ability to use the Gecko rendering engine?

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with KHTML?

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[philipacamaniac]

Zack's blog doesn't say anything about KDE 3.4, but QT Mozilla is available now for testing. Yay! http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/14?PHPSESSID=e5d d84569f3907829c4a09159b7901f4/

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

The changes needed are not on the KDE side, the changes have to be applied in the Gecko/mozilla sources. Basically making Gecko a kpart for use in KDE. At least some of the changes are in.

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Daengbo]

Using kdebindings you can easily tell konqueror to use gecko instead of khtml

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[beforewisdom]

Ditto.

It would be a wonderful thing for everyone at a technical level.

It would also be inspiring to see the cooperation adn the elimination of redundant work.

It would be cool if mozilla/firefox could be themed by the KDE, but I guess you pretty much get that with konqueror using gecko.

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

what exactly is gained by using QT in Mozilla? Drag and drop support, faster rendering?

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better KDE integration: style, file dialog, print system, ...

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

The first link on Google for "kdebindings gecko konqueror" is this comment.
It seems likely that you have just copied the first part of that.
If not, please explain how you can "easily tell konqueror to use gecko".

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Daengbo]

kdebindings offers a dialog to choose (or did some time ago). I can't give more details now, because I don't have KDE installed currently. I switched to Gnome when Thai input and readability became important to me.
I first did it after being told it was possible a couple years ago, right here on Slashdot. This comes up almost every KDE discussion, and I have seen a comment similar to mine in almost as many cases. I'm really quite tired of the question...

Re:Konqueror + Gecko?

[Brandybuck]

A rude answer would be: who cares?

A marginally politer answer would be: why do you care? So let me ask it. Why do you care? Everything Gecko has, KHTML has. Both are free and open. Both implement almost all current HTML/CSS/ECMA standards. Both will correctly render almost all web content. Both have very similar performance (as stand alone engines).

The point is not to develop a new monopolistic monoculture on the web, but to promote open standards. As such, there's simply no need to promote one engine over the other. In fact, promoting one over the other would be counterproductive. If you find a standards-compliant site that KHTML won't render, the proper course of action is to fix the bug in KHTML. Ditto for Gecko.

mEp?

[Anonymous Coward]

most people into a 4boUt 700 users

Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it have proper exchange support in korganiser and kmail?.. if not then whats the point of the new version hahehehe. j/k

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Daengbo]

OK, this was a troll, but from here:

Kontact

• Add alternative tab-based viewmode. Daniel Molkentin
• SnapIn/SnapOut actions for changing between an app running stand-alone or embedded in Kontact at run-time.
• Make Kontact (KOrganizer/KMail) work with Exchange 2000. Daniel Molkentin

So I guess that's a "yes."

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Shawn Parr]

I understand the grandparent is a troll, but my question is will the exchange and Groupwise compatibility really be included and will they work?

I just upgraded to SuSe 9.2 for Groupwise functionality (there is even a Groupware setup app with a button for Groupwise). Well, it doesn't seem to work. Very disappointing.

The version of Evolution 2.0 that is shipping does not include SOAP support (this is revealed on the Novell support site) even though we have been hearing for months that Evolution 2.0 will have full Groupwise sync. Turns out only if you get the nightly snapshots, which often can have other wacky issues.

Kmail will IMAP to a Groupwise folder fine, but the rest of Kontact just pops up errors trying to connect to a SOAP server.

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Daengbo]

I use Debian, not Suse, but I think that you're talking about the kontact-plugins and the setup app for it. It works fairly well against eGroupware for me, but I've never tried Groupwise. I suspect all this fuctionality will be better than in 3.3, but the new stuff will probably not be complete and be buggy, because that's just the way it always is.

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Anonymous Coward]

I just upgraded to SuSe 9.2 for Groupwise functionality (there is even a Groupware setup app with a button for Groupwise). Well, it doesn't seem to work. Very disappointing.

Well, it does work (I tested it myself). However, you need a very recent version of groupwise to get it working with either Kontact or Evolution. Please don't blame software when it's not at fault!

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Anonymous Coward]

However, that feature is in the "planned features" section, not the "completed features" section, and it's getting kinda late. Note that some of the features in the red section have been there for several releases; they just get moved to the next release's feature plan...

Re:Does it have a proper exchange handler

[Anonymous Coward]

Late? Listed features can be committed until February 2nd, 2005 - that's two months from today!

COREA!

[Anonymous Coward]

KEKEKEKEK err um CECECECE

Groovy man

[Anonymous Coward]

i cant wait till i get my hands on KDE-3.4.x

i got 3.3.1 running nicely on Slackware-10 and it is absolutely beautiful...

definitely a windoze killah...

IMAP filtering in KMail

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone know if the new KMail will supported incoming message filtering on IMAP folders? The ONLY reason I'm stuck using evolution at work is because evolution can sort mails coming into my IMAP Inbox into various other IMAP folders.

Re:IMAP filtering in KMail

[Daengbo]

From here

KMail

• Asynchronous encryption Ingo Kloecker , Marc Mutz
• Namespace support for IMAP Carsten Burghardt
• Using komposer Zack Rusin
• Full text indexing Don Sanders
• Leave on server for x days for POP Don Sanders
• Asynchronous filtering Don Sanders
• Multi/part related mails Don Sanders
• Get rid of mimelib (a.k.a. KMime). Marc Mutz
• Redesign filters to use Sieve internally. Allow editing of Sieve scripts on IMAP servers to get rid of the bug reports a la "KMail doesn't support IMAP folders for filtering" Marc Mutz
• Make the visible headers configurable, allow for "show all and hide specified headers" as well as "show specified headers". Already available as a patch. Klas Kalass
• Rewrite the composer window to drop KEdit and support richtext engines. (old ktexteditor patch available here). See also the new code in libkdepim/komposer Zack Rusin
• Improved configuration of header and attachment views Aaron J. Seigo
• Asynchronization of crypto operations. Ingo Kloecker
• Automatic HTML to plaintext conversion when replying to HTML mails. Don Sanders
• Make use of KWallet. Ingo Kloecker

So...yes?

Re:IMAP filtering in KMail

[a_karbon_devel_005]

No ETA afaik. There are extensive bug reports on it though, it's "on the radar."

Re:IMAP filtering in KMail

[Fenris Ulf]

From the KDE 3.4 Release Plan:

KMail - In Progress:

• Client side IMAP filtering. Till Adam, Don Sanders
• Type-specific configuration dialogs for folders Aaron J. Seigo
• Asynchronization of expensive filter actions. Till Adam, Don Sanders
• Improved responsiveness for delete/copy/move of multiple messages. Don Sanders
• Imap folders as targets for filter move actions. Till Adam, Don Sanders
• Multipart/related mail support. Don Sanders
• Full text index. Don Sanders

Check out the full list for finished and TODO items as well!

Re:IMAP filtering in KMail

[FireBook]

I think it has something to do with kmail wanting to alter headers, which isnt allowed by most imap servers iirc. cached(disconnected) imap works just fine for filters etc.

Re:IMAP filtering in KMail

[elliott666]

If you set up kmail to use disconnected IMAP, kmail will do the filtering just like it should, plus you can get to your email offline. Give it a shot!

Report from KDE World Summit, Day 7:

[Mstrgeek]

This is good Article dealing wih Kide written by Tom Chance

http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/08/30/2 028209

Hope you find it to educational

More complete feature plan

[kigrwik]

A more complete feature plan can be found here

Though it's not always up-to-date (some devs prefer pushing their code first, and *then* update the page).

HTH,
Kig.

Needs less bloat!

[liber8ed]

KDE has a lot of potential, but even KDE 3.3 is buggy, slow and bloated with useless features.

Instead of adding more feature, why not try to fix the one already added and make it more efficient and streamlined

khtml get fewer bug report

[cyfer2000]

And mozilla/firefox get more and more bug report. Does that mean the quality of khtml is better than mozilla/firefox or something?

Re:khtml get fewer bug report

[Nimrangul]

I don't think so.

More likely it is based on the number of users; you see, Mozilla works on Windows (you know, where the users are). With the increasing number of Mozillia users they have more people testing their stuff, Konquerer doesn't have that Windows user base.

Re:khtml get fewer bug report

[Anonymous Coward]

No. That's a hard conclusion to draw merely from bug submission rates. There are a number of other factors you have to consider to determine quality too. How do the features compare? How many users are submitting bugs? Where are the bugs occuring? How often are users using each feature?

The number of uses would be the first consideration, and by virtue of working on Windows, Mozilla just has more users. The second consideration is where are the bugs being found. If they're mostly being found in core functionality, it's likely that there is fringe functionality that cannot even be reached, hiding a totally unknown number of bugs.

Project management isn't really my thing, so I'm not sure all the factors involved, but simple bug counts and submission rates aren't enough to say much of anything.

Re:khtml get fewer bug report

[neonmagic]

Most Windows users wouldn't know what a bug report was or how to do it if it hit them on the head - they simply don't give a shit. Your more advanced firefox/mozilla users on the window platform might report a bug, might not. Depends on their mood. Since the average Linux and BSD users are generally far more technically advanced than the average windows users, the chances are greater that Linux/BSD users of konqueror will report bugs back to kde. I think that evens out the user base advantage of firefox. Dave

Re:khtml get fewer bug report

[Nimrangul]

That is a fairly asinine assumption you make there.

What makes you think a smart user on a Linux system is more likely to report a problem then a smart user on a Windows system?

No, you're definately out there with your position. The Mozilla base has a much larger number of users, you cannot really argue the fact. There is a smaller number of people using Konquerer, I have nothing against the browser really, but that is the simple truth. Where there are more users, there are more people reporting their issues.

autorefresh

[b100dian]

This is my problem too. everytime I look at KDE I get the feeling of a window manager that shivers (or refreshes) and it feels 'unstable'. Menus flickering, Icons redrawing etc. I see all these.
The problem comes when I try to find somebody that notices this too: google helps not, discussion lists either etc. Even people (like: real people) deny that they notice this refreshing/flickering.
This is one of the main reasons I avoid using KDE.. and this is one of the first times I read from somebody that he dislikes the same thing.
It's worse than a bug: it's undescribable and unreproduceable...

Re:autorefresh

[nick korma]

are you sure your monitor is not next to a large fan?

Re:autorefresh

[grqb]

I get this too! Mostly it seems to happen when I open a window that has large directories in it...I always thought that it was calculating the size of the directory. It also happens when I'm downloading or moving a large file and it re-calculates the size of the file on the fly (every time it flickers it recalculates the file size).

This is quite annoying, I just shade the window until it stops flickering...sometimes this can take a while though...

Re:autorefresh

[strredwolf]

Both Konquerer, and KHTML doesn't impliment the HTML Meta-Refresh tag directive.

Re:autorefresh

[b100dian]

oh

Re:autorefresh

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you might be happy to know that Qt 4.0 has support for double buffering of all widgets (not just some as in Qt3), and you will no longer be able to see refreshing of the menus, icons, etc. Not that it will help you until KDE 4.0 is out, but it's comming.

Re:autorefresh

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I just tried a little file containing and it worked fine with konqueror 3.2.3. After 5 seconds, it forwarded me to google.

Make sure you put the meta tag in the head where it belongs.

Re:autorefresh

[moZer]

If it makes you feel any better, I see it too :-)

The flickering is due to the fact that QT is not double-buffered. There are, AFAIK, tricks to make applications/widgets double-buffered, but it's not toolkit-wide. Gtk is, however.

There is a speed vs. eyecandy/usability tradeoff involved.

Re:autorefresh

[JabberWokky]

Works fine here. It has for quite awhile, too. Plus, you can use the Autorefresh tool to reload the page at specified intervals.

--
Evan

Re:autorefresh

[JBv]

Turn off the FAM daemon (look for /etc/init.d/fam).

This should reduce some of the icon fliker in konq and desktop.

Re:autorefresh

[Spy Hunter]

This can be helped in several ways. First, by choosing a fast widget style so that buttons and things are drawn faster. Second, by using the newest Xorg server with the composite extension turned on so that windows don't have to be redrawn as often. Third, by upgrading to the newest KDE. A lot of work has gone into reducing the number of redraws that Konqueror does on its icon views while browsing files. I can't find it now, but there was a really interesting couple of articles by the guy who went in and fixed the problems. I believe he reduced the amount of redrawing to just one total redraw when you enter a folder, and a couple of smaller ones as things are loaded, instead of three or four total redraws like it was before.

Re:autorefresh

[Anonymous Coward]

Enrico Ros spend some work on removing flickering:

no flicker

Re:autorefresh

[Anonymous Coward]

There are bug reports in the KDE database indicating this was working over four years ago. I'm pretty sure it's been working since the early betas (as in pre KDE 1.0). On what basis do you claim that this isn't implemented? (Oh, and meta refresh is a nasty non-standard hack anyway. Use a proper redirect.)

Thanks a bunch

[allden]

...but my system cannot run KDE as its libkdecore is screwed :-(.
Everytime I try updating KDE, it fails

Re:Thanks a bunch

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't be screwed if you used gentoo.

Re:Thanks a bunch

[netsharc]

Can't you uninstall libkdecore, and then try to update KDE, so that it installs a (hopefully good) libkdecore as a dependency?

I agree, this part of GNU/Linux still need work, the structure of Program Files\ApplicationName in Windows or Applications/SingleFileWhichIsTheApp is a lot easier to manage instead of putting everything into /usr/bin/ ...

Re:Thanks a bunch

[Anonymous Coward]

um... /usr/local/bin /opt /sbin,/bin,/usr/bin /etc ... (get my joke?)
are used for system files.. local installs are to go in usr/local and some still think /opt is the way of the future

Re:Thanks a bunch

[Anonymous Coward]

No he'd be so busy recompling KDE he'd never have a chance to actually try running it.

beware of this

[Anonymous Coward]

And no, unlike what previous idiot stated, both images are not screenshots of different thresholds.

The site is as corrupt as the government that allows it to exist.. learn the easy, hard intermediate ..whatever way

gmail?

[b100dian]

Wait a minute!
Since when does Gmail support Konqueror?

Re:gmail?

[LMCBoy]

Since when does Gmail support Konqueror?

Gmail doesn't support Konqueror, but Konqueror now supports Gmail.

Re:gmail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since 3.3.2, all changes from head(future 3.4) concerning Gmail support has been backported.

Re:gmail?

[Balinares]

GMail has been working with Konqueror for a little while. As of version 3.3.1, I believe. You still have to either spoof your user agent, or force GMail to accept Konqueror, though, I believe.

Re:gmail?

[tzanger]

Got links? I just tried with Konqueror 3.3.1 (spoofing various agents too) but past the login I just got the "Loading..." screen and then stop. Spoofing as IE, gmail wants activex.

Re:gmail?

[Balinares]

No link per se. I just tried it with Konqueror 3.3.1's own user agent -- I just have to make GMail 'sign in anyway' -- and it worked. There are still a few glitches here and there, note, but it does work. It may be you'll have to authorize redirections (Settings > Web behavior > Allow automated reloading/redirecting), if you turned that off.

Here are the CVS logs of the fixes, dating from early October. As you can see, the fixes have indeed been backported to the 3.3 branch.

Also, I think there -is- a hack to load ActiveX's in Konqueror; I read about it ages ago, and I don't remember much about it, except that it actually seemed to work, but I just wouldn't think of it if I were you, frankly. :)

Re:gmail?

[Carewolf]

You need 3.3.2, otherwise the first "log in anyway" will not work. Spoofing as Safari or Mozilla helps pass that part, but there are other small bugs later, all fixed in 3.3.2

Mirror!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mirror

Isn't a K-Head?

[the_thunderbird]

A person who does ketimine? Do we get free K with this new version of KDE?

Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[YetAnotherName]

... but it's the applications that use it that will matter. Over on Mac OS X, Rendezvous is what lets you stream your iTunes music or share your iPhoto pictures. Will KDE's media player let you stream music to other KDE media players on the network? Or better yet, to and from other iTunes players?

Unfortunately, the article doesn't say so.

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC, as I just mod'ed this thread, but have to agree with parent. The post didn't specify whether any KDE *apps* have added code to make use of zeroconf (or "Rendezvous"). If they haven't, then it isn't worth a lot [to end users] just to have KDE support it at the core level: will Juk search for DAAP-provided music on the network? will Konqueror search for HTTP-provided content on the network? etc. Still, I'm rather excided to to see the underpinnings of this start falling into place (zcip and tmdns, as already in Mandrake, and whatever KDE seems to bring to its future app work).
slide-rule

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[jeffehobbs]

Unfortunately, the article doesn't say so

...because most likely the answer is "not yet". Rendezvous was implemented in MacOS X 10.2, but when the OS came out, nothing really took advantage of it. It took time for developers (and even Apple) to understand the implications of Rendezvous and subsequently add it to their apps. The underpinnings have to be there first.

~jeff

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[CdBee]

Yes! Must have iTunes playlist sharing in an OSS music player (interestingly I note iTunes is now supported under CrossOver Office - obviously a lot of geeks use it)

Support for Jabber-over-Rendezvous as used in iChat to IM with other users on same subnet would be nice too.

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[Carewolf]

No, but try opening a wish for it agains amarok on bugs.kde.org and see what happens.

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You never know. If this is implemented as an ioslave, then every KDE application will automatically be able to take advantage of it, right?

Re:Rendezvous support is nice, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

ioslave is already implemented. You can get it from kdenonbeta/kdnssd/ioslave and see how it works. I hope it will be pushed into kdenetwork in next few days.

Way to go KDE and Apple

[Listen Up]

It is good to see Apple improvements making their way into KDE and Linux. I recently purchased a PowerMac and made the switch from Linux/Intel to Apple/PPC. Mac OS X is absolutely everything I have ever wanted in a beautifully polished and useful user interface with everything I have ever wanted in a UNIX underneath. What a beautiful OS.

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Anonimo Covarde]

Do you spit or swallow?

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never had to code for it. You would very quickly realize how thin the veneer is and how much of a square peg the UI is crammed into unix's round hole.

The underside of OSX is the most fsked up nightmare you can imagine. It's two completely imcompatible OSes crammed togeather with nightmarish consequences. It's a huge pain for developers and a huge opportunity for virus writers should they ever bite.

I initially thought the same as you, "Finally, a desktop unix with a usable UI!" how wrong I was :(

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

OT: what the crap are you talking about?

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Lally Singh]

Two completely incompatible OSs? You do realize that Carbon and Cocoa are a shared source base, and that some of Cocoa is implemented in Carbon, and vice versa.

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

It is good to see Apple improvements making their way into KDE and Linux.

This has been happening for a while now. The first Apple improvements to KHTML went in around 3.2, IIRC.

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[be-fan]

I think he means Carbon/Cocoa and UNIX. Or Mach and BSD. OS X really is quite an patch job. It works --- but it aint' pretty underneath.

Re:Way to go KDE and Apple

[Listen Up]

Obviously you are completely wrong. I develop in Objective C/Cocoa and Java and I completely disagree with you. I have nothing to do with Carbon whatsoever.

I have spent the past 11 years working with Linux. Talk about a fucking mess, Linux is a fucking mess. If you do not fuck with OS X, such as installing Linux code underneath, it is one of the most beautiful OS's I have ever worked with.

Pocket PC Sync

[nurb432]

Anyone know when the kitchensync will work generically with PocketPC devices?

So tired of keeping outlook around just for the ability to sync/backup...

Obligatory Futurama quote

[RPoet]

I don't say that one has to like KDE, but "I don't like the icons" is not a very godd reason...

Calculon: An Oscar, you say? That would get me out of this festering rat's nest called "television" once and for all. Let me see the script. [Zoidberg hands it to him and he speed-reads it.] No, no I don't like the font.

GET OVER IT

[Anonymous Coward]

You are yet another member of that infinite and immortal group of pure morons that can NOT learn. You probably fork out $ for it too. What a looser.
Get a life. Karma is actually just an integer on web sites.

ITS NOT REAL. You are probably hideously ugly in real life and cannot have REAL karma .

summary: get over it

Re:GET OVER IT

[Nimrangul]

Let us take a look at the meaning of the REAL karma:

Karma: The total effect of someone's actions and conduct during their existance, positive actions being rewarded with gifts and negative actions resulting in punishment. Karma can be interpreted as the immediate reactions of the world to a person's actions or the result of actions taking in a previous life.

Nowhere within the defitition of karma does it say an ugly man may not have karma. By the very meaning of the word anyone and everything have a karma as long as it can pick what it does, anything with a will of it's own has karma.

You would be able to tell if I forked out "$" for it; I would have an asterisk (that little star sign on your keyboard, over the 8: Read "*").

I do not see why you anonymous people get so displeased with someone when instead of being a cockwad the try to be at least constructive in what they contribute.

apple's rendezvous

[Miguel de Icaza]

how does rendezvous compare with Microsoft's Universal Plug and Play standard (as found in Media Center Extender)? They sound very similar to me, but MCE inevitably will become the ubiqutous home Discovery standard so isn't this effort just (no offence) 'accademic crap' at the end of the day.

How To Be a Karma Whore

[Anonymous Coward]

Just lurk for awhile with your threshhold at 4 or 5, and notice which posts get mod'ed up. {NB. Watch out for "funny" -- funny mods don't help your karma, but downmods against "funny" do work against you. Going for +5 Funny is always a gamble, since some moderator won't get the joke.} Also, try posting comments in stories that have gone off the boil. They won't get mod'ed up, but they won't get mod'ed down either, and unmoderated posts seem to have some small positive effect on your karma -- though I haven't confirmed this, being quite happy with my own excellent karma.

When you're ready, start posting for real. Be sure to read the discussion first, before you post your post. You don't want to be the second person to say something.

When your karma reaches excellent, then you can think about some trolling. A good troll should get mod'ed up to +5 before it gets mod'ed down. Or you can try to go for the coveted 5 Funny.

Final hints: Pro-Windows and anti-copying posts are best received in the "games" section, while anti-Windows and pro-copying posts are best received in the "YRO" section. Posts worshipping the sh*t from Steve Jobs's arsehole are best received in the "apple" section. Always tick the "post anonymously" box when posting hints for karma whoring.

Re:How To Be a Karma Whore

[Anonymous Coward]

I see there really are people with less of a life than me

Re:How To Be a Karma Whore

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the best way to keep your karma is to have been around longer than the karma cap. It seems that when Taco changed Slash and moved from karma as a number to the current "words" scheme, the old karma values your account had were never changed. So if you had 200+ karma when the cap came, it can take years to wear that down below 40 so that your karma is always "Excelent".

That and posting AC all the time. That helps too, and if you can get an AC post modded up +5 it drives those "I don't read or respond to Anonymous Cowards" asshats up the wall, which is always a bonus.

What about the menu editor?

[jav1231]

There would appear to be no mention of improving the menu editor. This should be a priority.

Re:What about the menu editor?

[CaptPungent]

Care to flesh that comment out a bit? I think you hit submit before finishing your post, friend.

What is wrong with the menu editor, and why should this be a priority?

Re:What about the menu editor?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is wrong with it, and why should a little-used part of the DE be a priority, as opposed to the more prominent parts like Konqueror?

Re:What about the menu editor?

[Brandybuck]

Please explain what is wrong with the menu editor, and why it's such a high priority to you? No, it's not perfect, but it works a lot better than most menu editors I've seen, including that of Windows.

Re:What about the menu editor?

[jav1231]

Well, it quite often doesn work. Have you used it? Have you tried to edit more than one entry at a time? Try removing items and see if they actually go away. This has plagued KDE for at least 2-3 years now from what I have seen. Right out of the box SuSE 9.2, for instance, has 3 mistakes on the menu. If you go into the editor, 3 items show as subitems for the a general menu label. However, on the menu itself, they aren't there but rather execute from the submenu item. So, for instance, clicking on Games, and Boardgames ( I think it is ) will launch Chess which appears to be an "item" in the editor. That may be a problem with KDE general but if you've ever had to edit several things at once, you would no doubt have seen its problems. I've observed similar issues in other distro's as well running KDE.

Re:What about the menu editor?

[jav1231]

Okay, I've posted it below but just to summarize, it does not work very well. If you add an item, it does fairly well. Deleting items doesn't and editting an item often does nothing. Why is this a priority? Because if you want to customize your menu you will run into problems. This should be one of the more simple things to do and it's buggy.

Re:What about the menu editor?

[CaptPungent]

Not in slackware. The stock version of KDE has not had this problem that I have ever seen.

GNAA

[Anonymous Coward]

GNOME sucks!

Konquerer

[endeavour31]

Is it me or is this browser godawful slow? I alway head to firefox since it takes 5 times longer to load a page in Konquerer. Does anyone use it with better results?

Yes its a P4 with plenty of RAM. And Firefox runs quickly. Otherwise KDE seems fine -albeit a bit tougher for the average user to configure than OSX or MS.

Re:Konquerer

[PoprocksCk]

Don't get me wrong, I love Konqueror dearly, but you're right. Its rendering doesn't seem to be as fast as Gecko's. But if and when Gecko rendering will be available in Konqi, I'll be sold. Yes, I know it _can_ be done, but I want to see it in a simple menu entry or something in Konqi.

Re:Konquerer

[Anonymous Coward]

It's you.

No, seriously. If it were not for Firefox's better pop-up blocking and Konqueror not being supported (last time I checked--though the screenshot in the article seems to contradict me) by GMail; I would probably stick to Konqueror.

Re:Konquerer

[FireBook]

You sure this isnt the IPV6 issue? (Konqueror by default tries to load everything via IPV6, then fails back to IPV4. This is disableable somewhere or other.

Re:Konquerer

[anynameleft]

Yes! I always turn away from firefox to Konqueror because firefox feels so awfully slow!

In fact, even on my Performa 6400 (180 Mhz, 72 MB RAM) I'd rather use KDE+Konqueror than WindowMaker and Firefox. Really. Startup takes forever, yes, but afterwards the UI isn't so dog slow...

Re:Konquerer

[Anonymous Coward]

It's you

I agree. I use Konqueror for my primary browser, as Firefox is by far slower (via startup _and_ rendering). Startup is a bit slow (DCOP actually) but once the KDE subsystem is loaded, everything is snappy. I use Konqueror under Ion2/3 without any difficulties.

The problem with gmail is the lack of support for the HTTPXMLRequest thingy - and that is fixed in CVS.

Re:Konquerer

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it me or is this browser godawful slow?

I find it to be the opposite, with Firefox being slower than Konqueror, especially once you have been using it for a while without closing all your windows and opening it up again.

Re:Konquerer

[Brandybuck]

I'm using both Konqueror and Firefox and I see absolutely no differences in rendering speed. In fact, now that I think of it, what kind of pages are you looking at that take so long to render that you can actually *SEE* a delay?

If you seeing any kind of noticable lag in Konqueror rendering with a reasonably fast CPU, there's something wrong with your system or configuration. I've run Konqi on a 100MHz P1 and the rendering was still usably quick. Of course, I'm running FreeBSD, but that couldn't be it, because everyone says Linux is the fastest...

Re:Konquerer

[neonmagic]

I find konqueror and firefox about the same in terms of load up speed, on a variety of websites. If there's a differences, it's usually so small as to be worthless jumping up and down about. FireFox still has been support of more websites, and also better rendering. Pages that are poorly written look dreadful in konqueror, but that's not really konqis fault. It's the shit coding ;-) Dave

Re:Konquerer

[The MESMERIC]

weird and my experience is that Konqueror is faster than all other browsers except Dillo of course.

But WHY DA FUCK does Konqueror put that ANNOYING BORDER-LINE around tags (ie Flash) is beyond me !!

And no there is no round it when coding XHTML/CSS.

Dont get angry over it.

[toolshed7]

Dont shout and flame. Geez, some terms have multiple meaning. Bad is good, shit does not mean crap, windows is not actually a bunch of windows. The list could go on forever. You might be super smart(not as smart as me of course), a genius perhaps, but debating stuff like this with flaming is just dumb. But I agree with your points, just dont F'ing shout. A windows manager and the desktop is two different things that work togther, why not explain it if it such a personal thing to you. You dont just kick a dog and not explain why you did it...you have to point and look them in the eyes and maybe put on an angry face...

Meanwhile, at the bearded terminal hacker's lab...

[Lauwenmark]

"What's that, Snibs ?

- Err... That's what they call a 'mouse' in the outside world, Sir. I thought it would be an interesting device for you to see, Sir.

- A mouse ? What is it made for ? Hunt cheese bits between the coke cans ?

- No, Sir. Actually, they use it to interact with the GUI and...

- What ?! GUI ?! You bloody traitor ! GUARDS ! Take Mr. Snibs and his... rodent to the PDP-11 mental reconditioning room !"

dumb and dumber

[mrm677]

MSIE is a beast that is *tied* to the kernel, uses kernel internals, and thus, is bad. I have yet to see *any* *nix desktop/window manager that does such a thing.

MSIE is no more tied to the kernel than any other application. Tied to Explorer? Absolutely, but no, not the kernel.

Neither is Microsoft Office. Everybody claims that the reason MS Word starts so quickly is that much of it is already loaded when Windows starts. Nice theory...doesn't explain why MS Word running under Wine starts blazingly fast on my Linux box.

SOLUTION

[Anonymous Coward]

http://groups.google.de/groups?q=suse+refresh+9.2& hl=de&lr=&selm=2vk1esF2n0d97U1%40uni-berlin.de&rnu m=2

Slackware Users and "Their" Issues

[LibrePensador]

What's interesting about this post? Nothing, it shows great ignorance.

Someone installs Slackware instead of a distribution that properly modularizes its package and dependency handling and then comes here and complains.

In Mandrake and Suse, packages are broken into smaller part. You also have meta-packages if you wish to install the whole bundle. So you can install, kde-network or you can install kget and kopete by themselves.

Get a grip and keep it!

ObTextBrowserPedantry

[Zorikin]

Konqueror running on KDE is by far the fastest browser on Linux

lynx
links
w3m
dillo

(yes, I understood what you meant to say)

slashdot rendering incorrectly?

[Anonymous Coward]

it seems i have to click 'reload' to get the page to render properly, running Firefox 1.0-3. anyone else have this problem? the comments are written on top of the left navbar.

Re:slashdot rendering incorrectly?

[pchan-]

slashdot rendering incorrectly:

hit ctrl and +, then ctrl and -. it will change your font size up and down, forcing firefox to re-render. no refreshing, and it will be rendered correctly.

SLASHDOT EDITORS: find out what this problem is and either submit a bug to mozilla or fix your broken code.

Re:slashdot rendering incorrectly?

[ubernostrum]

SLASHDOT READER: It's already in Bugzilla, it's already fixed in the main Mozilla trunk, and Firefox will roll the fix in when it next syncs up with that trunk, at the Firefox 1.1 milestone. Had you taken five seconds to look into this, you would have found all this information and more.

In the meantime there's an extension available which will reflow the page automatically for you; go to Google, type in "slashfix", and follow the first result.

Best update

[Mitchell Mebane]

"- Usage of GCC 3.4 symbol visibility functionality for much improved application startup time."

That's the only thing that's irks me with KDE: Apps just don't seem to start as fast as in Windows. I hope this brings things up to speed.

Re:Best update

[Anonymous Coward]

Prelink your applications and libraries like it's done on Windows.

Re:Best update

[msh104]

qt4 also makes a great promise for startup times. but we won't see that until kde 4.

YOU MUST BE NEW HERE, MA'AM

[Anonymous Coward]

In before the lawyers ...

[phoebe]

KDE had better be implementing OpenTalk instead of Rendezvous(tm).

Hey, mods!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone check this guys posting history, and nuke his karma please? He's obviously on some kind of bet to get every /. discussion to include the phrase "bearded terminal hacker". It's annoying me...

Re:Hey, mods!

[SlashdotMirrorer]

Help, this man is annoying me! Moderators! Anybody! Help!

Wah wah.

Re:Konquerer is slow

[Stuart Poss]

I agree. I too love it, but ... If not this version, perhaps the next, the KDE team really needs to focus on running the whole thing through a profiler and speed up the bottlenecks.

More internal support for .mpg and other multimedia file viewing directly from Konqueror would also be a plus. The thing hangs on more and more webpage content these days. I hope this is remedied in the new version.

Re: Better Thumbnail support?

[Stuart Poss]

Does the new version support viewing graphic files as thumbnails in the new version?

Presently, one must run a photo or image viewer program to get a view of image files. When you have directories full of images, it is really helpful to be able to see a thumbnail view rather than having to open each file individually. Having the option to select "thumbnail" view directly in the KDE (ie in View - Details the ability to check "thumbnail" support/options that would permit all the images in an entire directory to be viewed as thumbnails. Of course, this would need to include support for the variety of image files available, as in Gimp.

Re: Better Thumbnail support?

[ElGuapoGolf]

I believe KDE 3.3 does that already. And it has done it for quite a while I think...

You just need to hunt for the option. It's in the control panel somewhere. Of course, that's like saying there's a very valuable rock in Wyoming, go find it. :)

Re: Better Thumbnail support?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Icon View just "View/Preview/Enable Previews"

stfu

[Anonymous Coward]

stfu scizzme

Maybe there should be a new modifier...

[MoxFulder]

Maybe there should be another modifier, say something like "Verbatim" that can be attached to a post. This way useful copy/pasted text will get modded up so everyone can see it, but the poster won't get karma points.

Anyone admins reading?

Re:Maybe there should be a new modifier...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, then everyone can squash a Linux / OSS criticism IMMEDIATELY!

Re: One learns something useful everyday. Thanks.

[Stuart Poss]

Great, I guess I just didn't give it enough time
to search through large directories to see the results appear.

Is there any way to control the size of the previews? They are so small on my system that I can hardly see them.

Re: One learns something useful everyday. Thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

"View/Icon Size/" or corresponding toolbar buttons

Konqueror is _not_ tied to the Desktop or the OS

[Anonymous Coward]

I use ion2 for my window manager and use Konqueror with Zero problems. Misinforming people stucks.

again, a lack of priorities.

[chasingporsches]

although the screenshots show that the UI is getting better, the UI of KDE and GNOME is still severely not user-friendly.

my message to KDE and GNOME developers:
put more emphasis on usability if you don't want linux to fall in a few years.

i know linux inside and out. i am extremely comfortable with the OS, have been using it for years... but i don't use it on any of my computers at home. why? because using KDE or GNOME or any other WM for linux makes me want to dig out my eyeballs with a spork. so i use mac os x... i've tried yellowdog many times, but it just doesnt work. KDE and GNOME are ugly, hard to use, and don't come close to the user-friendliness of windows or mac os x. i usually am a linux apologist (especially to those who knock it) but there's no use BSing a crowd of linux users. the UI sucks. and i'm sure a bunch of 13 year olds who just installed red hat 7 on their parents old PII-350 are going to rebut saying i don't know what i'm talking about... but from a CS student's perspective, the UI needs a LOT of help.

Re:again, a lack of priorities.

[Anonymous Coward]

although the screenshots show that the UI is getting better, the UI of KDE and GNOME is still severely not user-friendly.

I agree that there are a lot of areas for improvement, but I don't think that they are behind Windows or Mac OS X. Both of those environments have significant shortcomings as well.

put more emphasis on usability if you don't want linux to fall in a few years.

Both the projects have usability teams, but even without them I don't understand why you think that way. Poor usability didn't stop Windows or Mac OS X from becoming accepted. Care to back up your claims?

i'm sure a bunch of 13 year olds who just installed red hat 7 on their parents old PII-350 are going to rebut saying i don't know what i'm talking about... but from a CS student's perspective

Did you ever think that, as a mere student, you aren't in a position to belittle the credibility of other peoples opinions? Or that, if a 13 year old can use it just fine, perhaps it's not all that unusable?

Re:again, a lack of priorities.

[Jesus_666]

KDE and GNOME are ugly, hard to use, and don't come close to the user-friendliness of windows or mac os x.

You obviously never had to reconfigure your Windows in any way. I have been power-using Windows since 3.11 and after switching to Linux about one year ago I was immediately surprised at how intuitive everything configuration-related was compared to Windows.

Properly configuring your system is pretty hard with Windows - most of the interesting settings are hidden in obscure places where no one in their right mind would ever look for them; some settings even require you to fiddle with undocumented hex strings somewhere in the registry or use third-party software to do the dirty work for you.
With KDE you can access pretty much everything you should ever want to configure using a very clean and intuitive control panel (compared to Windows'). The Gnome panel seems to be rather usable too, although I haven't seen it too often.

Sure, the UI needs improvement, especially in comparison to OS X. But I think that in terms of usability, KDE and Gnome have both already surpassed Windows.
It's big things like the more intuitive design and small things like X's select-and-middle-click-paste or KDEs multiple kicker bars that - in my personal opinion, of course - make Linux/KDE a lot more usable than Windows.

Re:again, a lack of priorities.

[morgajel]

put more emphasis on usability if you don't want linux to fall in a few years.

What's wrong with it?

This could just be the Mac influence in you talking. I personally find kde/windows 2k and lower a breeze to use, but when I used an ibook for a month I thought it was the worst UI ever (I dislike winXP as well). It's not so much that one is worse than the other, it's that they're two different approaches. windows vs. mac. KDE, though they don't like to admit it, owe most of their UI to windows. I'm not saying that Macs aren't good; the next laptop I get will probably be some type of powerbook, but it'll probably dual-boot with gentoo.

my wife, who is not a computer person, was able to pick up kde with very little problem coming from a windows-only background. She's now capable of changing her kdm login manager and her desktop settings. she's moved the menubar to the top of the screen. she's able to update the menu when I install something new for her if it doesn't automatically (kde->settings->menu updating tool)

so I guess my question is, what is it you're having problems with? every kde thread that comes up there seems to be someone saying this exact same thing, but I never seem to hear what is actually wrong with the UI other than it's not a mac. Have you submitted a bug report about it? that's the easiest way to get the info to a kde dev. just set it to the lowest priority/wishlist or whatever, and a dev will probably check it out.

if I pissed you off on accident, I'm sorry- I just woke up.

Re: One learns something useful everyday. Thanks.

[pantherace]

View -> Icon Size

Where's the beef?

[mccrew]

the UI of KDE and GNOME is still severely not user-friendly.
...
put more emphasis on usability if you don't want linux to fall in a few years

Define user friendly.

Re: One learns something useful everyday. Thanks.

[zod1025]

Just an FYI, by default Konqueror doesn't show previews of files larger than 1 meg (not sure of the reason why, memory or speed limitations maybe)

You can change this behavior too, under Settings-> Configure Konqueror-> Previews and Meta Data, change the "Maximum filesize" to your liking.

I'm curious.

[Changa_MC]

Why is this a troll, exactly? I mean, sure, it's iritating to hear that some think KDE is not as good as GNOME, but so what? At least they're not running windows.

Re:I'm curious.

[Anonymous Coward]

Repeated posting of prepared (outdated) texts with intention to stirr up a flame war.

Apple, FreeBSD and KDE

[n0dez]

As far as I know Apple has never contributed a single line of code to Linux; I would say that it's good to see Apple improvements making their way into FreeBSD and KDE. :)

Where can we ask technical questions about KDE?

[KWTm]

I, too, hope they've worked out that bug as well as a number of other bugs. In fact, I would love to know where to ask questions about KDE bugs and non-bugs, especially the latter. When I run into a KDE problem, it seems like a bug to me, but it might just simply be poor configuration. But I don't know where to turn. It's not in the KDE FAQ, and when I write to the authors of the various pieces of software, they ask me to check the KDE bugs email list archives --if they reply at all. This is quite understandable, since I'm sure they're busy enough tooling away at the KDE components in their spare time, but --what if it's not a bug? Isn't there some (non-bug) forum or mailing list where KDE-knowledgeable people come together? I've tried linuxquestions.org, but responses are few and scattered.

For example ... How do I set it so that KsCD doesn't pop up and try to play my music CD every time I insert one? Why does it now take 5 seconds for any KDE program to launch, instead of instantly like before? Why does my system freeze for 10 seconds every time I try to print, before the KDEprintjob whatchamacallit window finds my printer? When I use cut&paste, why does Klipper paste the previous thing I cut rather than the most recent thing? Why do my settings, for choosing which program opens which type of file, keep getting overwritten?

All these things are driving me nuts and are making this GUI almost unusable (to the point where I am serious considering venturing into GNOME territory). I'm sure that someone out there has the answers, and that I can't be the only one who has these questions, but where do I turn? Help, Slashdot!

(I will certainly appreciate answers to my questions above, but my main question is: where can I find KDE-knowledgeable people? I can't post to Slashdot every time some trivial question about KDE configuration comes up.)

Re:Where can we ask technical questions about KDE?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I would love to know where to ask questions about KDE bugs and non-bugs

That's easy to answer: http://www.kde.org/mailinglists/, http://kde-forum.org, irc://irc.kde.org/kde

Re:Where can we ask technical questions about KDE?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to forget the comp.windows.x.kde newsgroup.

Re:Where can we ask technical questions about KDE?

[JabberWokky]

Some of your questions are SUSE related rather than KDE related. SUSE provides a few extra KDE programs that do things like hardware management that are "features" that I dislike as well.

For instance, to disable KsCD popping up for disks, look to your system tray. There are a couple SUSE icons there. One is SUSEwatcher, and there's another (I've disabled them - you can too). In one of them, you can associate system events (like an audio CD being inserted) with an application. Turn off KsCD. In the latest version, I think you can also right click on the CD icon on your desktop and change preferences (a location that makes sense).

If you bought SUSE, you get support. Call the toll free number and ask. If you like IRC, there are several helpful channels as well (on openprojects.net, for one). Same goes for usenet. Also see if there is a Linux Users Group near you.

There are also several books written (some online, some available at your local book retailer) covering specifically KDE. It's not like it is a new or niche environment anymore. Joe Sixpack and Mom are starting to use it - you can often find help in the typical computer help places.

--
Evan

Re:Where can we ask technical questions about KDE?

[Anonymous Coward]

> If you bought SUSE, you get support.

You only get installation support.

My only complaint...

[Anonymous Coward]

Plastik sucks. It sucks because of the button rollover effect. It doesnt look nice with different coloured buttons. Fix this and it will not sucks.

Yes, you are rude.

[Mornelithe]

I agree that both KHTML and Gecko should continue to be developed. However, your entire post overlooked the fact that it might be nice to have both around.

When Gmail first came out, it flat out wouldn't work with KHTML. In such a situation, it would be nice to be able to switch Konqueror to use a Gecko part temporarily. The only other solution is to have Mozilla or Firefox installed separately, and no matter how much you theme them, they still won't fit into a KDE desktop as well as Konqueror will. Bonus points if I can have only the Gecko part installed without needing to install the the associated full-fledged applications (which would also benefit Gnome people who want to use Epiphany without having Mozilla around; this decoupling was supposed to happen, but I guess that project stalled).

So what's the problem with having both a Gecko and a KHTML part around and using one or the other as the situation demands. That way I can actually get things done while I'm waiting for a bug in one or the other to be fixed.

Re:Yes, you are rude.

[Brandybuck]

I have nothing against choice. Heck, the reason I want people to continue working on KHTML is precisely because I WANT choice. But I'm tired of this constant whine that KHTML sucks. It does not suck. If Gmail didn't work with KHTML in the *past* then that was Google's fault, and not an excuse to dump KHMTL wholesale. And yes, there are people who want to do that.

Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[Trogre]

I don't know, how about...

THE ABILITY TO FRICKIN EDIT THE FRICKIN START MENU!!!

You know, like Windows 95 had all those years ago. I still have OpenOffice.org 1.0.0, OpenOffice.org 1.1.0 and OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 in my Start ("K") menu, and no obvious way of deleting them. Sure I can "Hide" them but that's like using paint to obscure a 3cm diameter rust hole.

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[Anonymous Coward]

Click on the K , Settings, Menu editor

kde 3.3.1

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, try right clicking on it and choosing "Edit"

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[Trogre]

Sorry, I should have been specific:

I want a menu editor for KDE that doesn't suck, and remembers your changes after you've hit 'OK'

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[TheAcousticMotrbiker]

So, again, what's wrong with kmenuedit ?
it does remembers your changes (though the option is called save, not OK)

Of course, I don;t use the menus much,
and kmenuedit has some serious limitations, but you can do with it what you want .

(at least with the one that came with KDE 3.2 which I used tested

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[neonmagic]

umm kde menu editor works fine, and has worked fine for quite some time now. No worse than editing the menu for Windows 95 and above. Dave

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[The MESMERIC]

oogaa oogaa dooga boogaa

got it now?

Re:Features for KDE 3.4 that should be there

[ssj_195]

I've had *huge* troubles getting the KDE menu to work right on occasion. The menueditor is slow to start up, "saving" the changes sends the harddrive in to a frenzy (just what the hell is it doing, anyway?), and it will very often fail and keep failing until I restart KDE - hardly convenient (I've heard others report the bug before - something to do with "Failing to attach to DCOP process", or something). Contrast this with Windows, where I can click "Start" and immediately and seamlessly start dragging, copying or deleting menu entries without having to crank up some buggy additional application.

Don't get me wrong; I run Linux + KDE full-time at home, but I genuinely cannot understand how anyone can defend the KDE menu editing system, or say it's "no worse than Windows 95 and above".

Wrong

[Carewolf]

Unfortunatly.

I guess you were thinking of the old KMozilla plugin, but it went unmaintained as very few who used Konqueror had any reason to use it. Some of us are expecting history to repeat itself.

Re:Wrong

[Daengbo]

But there's a new QT port of Moz, right? Due out soon, I hear

From Hating KDE to LOVING IT

[The MESMERIC]

ex-Gnome Fan here.

Firstly WELL DONE for the KDE team !!
These guys are pro and seriously want to give the best window manager experience all-round.

Again well done!

KDE is just too superb now.

* You can customize for a window button - to stay always on top.

* You can embellish and eye-candy your environment as much as you want (or trim it down too) (or optimize even)

* Movies now show a preview when in thumbnail mode. Yeah I know it took them sometime but before I had to fire Nautilus just for a quick preview of what saved naughty movie to watch.

* The very best feature I find is this: right click on a file and expand the menu - navigating through the folder - until you are offered a "Copy Here / Move to Here" .. if you have that - you know what I am talking about :)

I would hug a member of the KDE team right now
(provided the member was a randy german lady with big boobies and 6 feet tall
.. I love german girls they are so randy .. I love KDE !!)

Says I editing this from BlackBox oops.

*uum*... ls -l `which sh`

[danalien]

sh == bash in other words....

Re:*uum*... ls -l `which sh`

[JabberWokky]

sh == bash for some values of sh. There are plenty of systems out there where this is not true.

--
Evan