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CCC Mods Rent-a-Bike To Allow Free Rides
Autoversicherung writes "Germany has an activated by phone bike rental system across all major cities. At 6 cent a minute quite pricey, germanys famous Chaos Computer Club thought a free ride every now and then couldnt hurt.
Optimizing the original system in the process, modifying the blink code to be easier found and changing the logo. About 10% of Berlins bikes are patched already. A detailed description of how they did it, and how the system works."
Heh. War biking. Cool!
Some people are like slinkies--basically useless but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
Darn things require so much energy to move.
Their website explains...To return your bike, take it to the nearest major crossing within the core area and lock it to a fixed object, e.g., a traffic sign or a bicycle stand but not, please, on a traffic light.
This would not work in America.
Not a chance, we aint got flying cars yet so what makes you think bikes are any more likely?
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully..." -Wherry
6c a minute sounds pricey, until you realize it's $3.60 an hour, which doesn't sound so bad.
What happens when you lock your bike to something that doesn't belong to you and someone (i.e. store owner) gets pissed?
If the system stops making money the bikes will be removed and the service will stop. Then who benefits? The price maybe high for the service but the option is to simply not use it. Just because the apples are over priced does that give you the right to steal them. Free market means you also have the right not to buy not to steal.
The CCC was sent an anonymous report on how the bikes were hacked. From the webpage: "An article in our magazine Datenschleuder that has been passed along from an anonymous source details how the the system can be circumvented to gain free access to the bikes without calling anybody: [Externer Link]"Hack a Bike" is a fine example of a true hack."
Why hack something that is for the common good, such as public, non-polluting transportation?
That's the whole idea, fatty.
Elsewhere where this kind of thing is done these bikes are custom and the parts are not compatible with normal bikes. I think Copenhagen did this.
Were that I say, pancakes?
I also think the mods don't know exactly what "redundant" really means.
(I think this was the 3rd post)
MAKE YOUR TIME
Hey, sorry but it sounds to me that they are using a hole in a digital system to allow free usage of the PHYSICAL property of somebody else. I will leave to IP philosophe whether to copy IP is stealing or not, but to use somebody else property because the lock is not strong enough is obvious STEALING and VANDALISM. How about going into somebody else flat, eating their food, sleeping in their bed, because their digital alarm system with door code can be easily hacked with the maintenance password ? What on slashdot next ? How to steal a car by bypassing ignition key system ???
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The mods are so hopped up on crazy glue and sugar that when they stop masturbating to horse porn long enough to moderate they tend to be a bit random. Basically a -1 means "I don't like it" and the label means fuck all.
You should remember it's 6 EuroCents so it's 3.60 EUR which is about 2.13835 EUR.
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If I run a bike shop and pay rent and/or taxes on the property, so anyone can come look at the bikes but if they want to use one, they have to pay, that's a normal retail situation. I'm entitled to control what happens with my bikes within my private space.
What happens, though, if I just start locking the bikes up to lampposts and advertising that anyone can call a phone number to pay to unlock them? Am I not trying to convert the public lampposts into private retail space without paying any rent or tax? Who is taking what from whom? Perhaps some philosopher could conclude that I've really just abandoned the bikes, and rather than hacking 10% of them, CCC might have done better to hack 100%.
BTW, the public bicycle concept AFAIK started in Holland, with the Witte Fietsen ("white bicycles" in Dutch) project. Hippies scrounged up old bikes and parts during a transit strike, got them working and painted them white, and then just left them all over the place for people to use for free. Sort of a bicycle version of the GNU project. If you needed to get somewhere, you'd just find a white bike, ride it wherever you were going, and leave it for someone else to find and use.
This was several decades ago. Witte Fietsen actually worked as envisioned by the hippies, and was successful enough that local government decided to pick up the expenses. It is still active today in some parts of Holland, though in the big cities, sadly, the bikes get stolen too fast.
The dial-a-bike thing seems like a pale imitation. Witte Fietsen didn't need to be hacked.
(the translation is of the original PDF which is in German; different info)
I found learning about this very cool bike system that works for another country more interesting than some losers hacking it.... all to circumvent a 6 cent fee.
I wish this would work in Los Angeles. It could really be useful. It wouldn't work though... too many "hackers" with wire cutters. (alot like the "hackers" above, but with less technical school clases).
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
According to spiegel.de there are no bikes in Berlin today. The Deutsche Bahn has collected them all for a winter break and will check if anybody has manipulated them.
Btw: The CCC will meet from December 26th to 29th for their annual congress. Motto: "The ususal suspects".
P.S.: I submitted this story on Saturday.
The CCC only got a detailed report about the system and the hack from an anonymous source, and they just published it online and in their magazine.
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
I thought Chaos was that company that makes all my programs work...
Now, if they're really recalled over winter for a once-over, I wonder how much harder they will be to get into when the snow melts and they reappear? Will the Call-A-Bikes become more impenetrable, as Darwinian geek theory dictates they'll need for survival?
On the flip side, I must also applaud the hackers for not simply vandalising the bikes, but modifying them to return to service once the "free ride" was over. (Perhaps misguided) - theft all the same, but at least free of physical destruction.
If you do have the time to hack a bike before you want to use it, then come to Copenhagen, Denmark. You can use the bikes for free.
t tp://www.woco.dk/composite-1100.htmr s.aol.com/humorme81/citybike.htm
http://www.bycyklen.dk/engelsk/frameset.html
h
http://membe
After pouring over the page, I think they have left out the most important thing: what the code is to use it. I went through the code at bottom, and because I suck at programming, didnt get a word of it...
Alot of these modern bikes have tires that come not with bolts that you need a wrench to remove, but with something you can remove by hand without need of a wrench(I do not know the exact word for this piece...). It is more convenient when you want to remove and put on a tire, but it also more convenient for thieves. Also there are bike seats that are clamped in a similar way and require no wrench. I have seen several bikes securely chained but missing a seat or tires.
The problem I have with that is that with how often bikes are stolen, vandalised and the initial cost of purchasing them the 6cent per minute might seem costly but appears to be closer to just covering the costs of the service. This is no Robin Hood Hackjob to have those bikes available for free, it's just a way of inching the concept closer to being abandoned by the company. And with by now 10% hacked and this ongoing without publicity for a while they can't honestly claim that it's just for pointing out a security flaw in the system.
Doesn't the lock bar just go through the spokes?
:)
They didn't even think of just cutting all of the spokes out of way. Dummies.
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You can purchase the quick release mechanism with a lock on it if you really want to. I've never had a problem with it (but then, my bike is so beat up, nobody would want to steal it...)
Don't count your messages before they ACK.
has been going on since the 1960's and works fine in the places where it operates. It is cheaper to run per user than conventional public transit systems like buses and undergrounds, all of which have subsidized fares that cost much more than the bikes do. Do you think the New York Subway is also run by hippies?
A lot of people will remove the tire or seat to make it less appealing to thieves. A thief walking away with a bike missing a tire, or rolling one along without a seat is going to be more obvious than one who just cuts the chain.
N.
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
I believe the city of Austin, Texas tried something like this once. The city had a bunch of yellow bikes placed throughout the city for free use. Needless to say, people looking for an easy buck found repainting them worked wonders.
Out of Cheese Error:
Please reboot universe
" So if I park my own bike somewhere, I'm trying to convert this piece of city into my own private parking space?"
I agree with your point, but your analogy is silly unless you own 1700 bikes. You're expected to park your own personal bike by chaining it to the nearest lamppost.
"If this is morally defensible is your own call."
It's easy for me to say because I don't own the bikes, but it's worth noticing that they went to lengths to make sure the bikes were still usable. (Compared to all the other vandalism these bikes have apparently suffered.)
Also, notice that they didn't give out their magic code on the Internet.
It's obvious that these people are just doing this for fun, not out of a strong desire for financial gain. Heck, for all the man-hours that went into this project, they could have worked at a minimum wage job and then purchased a bicycle.
Let me guess - having published your praise of all the nice German hackers, who hack the system to get the "free joyride" on someone elses' property, you will then write yet another complaint on some mainstream media "improper usage" of the word "hacker" - "Dear Editors, you confuse us, the oh-so-ethical hackers with the bad nasty crackers"?
For the record: The CCC published a report which it had been sent anonymously. The actual modifications may or may not have been made by CCC members. We simply don't know. I doubt the CCC would officially endorse these actions.
The 'witte fietsen' plan was dumb, like most of the stuff hippies thought up.
About as dumb as the average dotcom business plan, like much of the stuff thought up by the typical business fanatic.
Some people will not have respect for something they receive for free. If they can break it without consequences, they will.
A statistically small fraction of poorly socialised people, generally children, will vandalise the system. Depending on the resulting costs (as compared a so-called free market approach with costs in advertising and competitive duplication, or monopoly rent) this approach may or may not be a good idea. Judging by other posts here it is a good idea in smaller towns.
---
Commercial software bigots - a dying breed.
This was a message from FHNESTS (Foreigners Helping Native English Speakers To Spell).
Nanana SNANA & GNANA - beat you to it!
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Go these in Helsinki. They're even free to use, you only need a 2 euro deposit, just like with shopping carts. They're provided by the City's local transport dep't.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
"I agree with your point, but your analogy is silly unless you own 1700 bikes. You're expected to park your own personal bike by chaining it to the nearest lamppost."
Agreed, the analogy doesn't fly straight as an arrow, but the point is simple. Public space is government controlled. They allow me to park my bike anywhere ( as opposed to charging me if I don't park it on my own private property, as with cars in much places ), and they allowed Deutsche Bahn to park their rental bikes anywhere, which is a sort of hidden subsidy for this project, I figure.
As for the morality, maybe they aren't in it for financial gain, but that gives them no right to sabotage Deutsche Bahn's tries to make the system cost effective, just because they can. It not much different from vandals breaking the free 'witte fietsen' just because they feel like it and can.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
..the Case of Bugs Meany and the Chaos Computer Club.
8)
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
Your argument fails because even the 'witte fietsen' plan is firmly embedded in the free market economy. You didn't think these bycicles where really free, did you? They were produced by a company for money, then discarded probably because repairing them was less cost effective than buying a new bike. Then some hippies went off and repaired them; which in turn cost money for the manhours spent repairing the bikes.
This maybe wasn't charged, but the point is that the whole 'witte fietsen plan' was dependend of the free economy it was said to defeat. There was some smart recycling, granted, there where some altruistic people obviously able to spend their free hours repairing bikes. But they only have those free hours to spend because of modern economics making it unneccesary to spend _all_ your time feeding yourself and your family.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
from the article: "It wasn't until January that one of us finally thought of a way to carry on with hacking the bike [...] The next few weeks [...]"
So they have been riding these bikes for free for the last ~10 months, and now while the the bikes are back for maintainance, they reveal that some are hacked (and should be reflashed)
All in all I'd say it is a fair trade-off. they reveal a bug in the system (IP-protection bit not set) and ride a bike for free once in a while. They don't reveal the backdoor code, so it is not like everybody and their dog can get a free ride.
Kudos to them I say!
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
I read the part that said:
"About 10% of Berlins bikes are patched already."
Hacking for fun, yeah sure. But doing what could ultimately cause the demise of this whole concept.. thats just Wrong.
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
I want to run the CCC hack thru Babelfish to make it run on Zipcars here in the US.
--
make install -not war
Could you translate a detailed article into German:
If you have nothing useful to say post as AC.
Your argument fails because even the 'witte fietsen' plan is firmly embedded in the free market economy.
My argument succeeds quite nicely thank you. The so-called free market economy succeeds partly because it is firmly embedded in a command economy (i.e. government).
There is no such thing as a pure "free" market. If it existed it would be warlordism, might makes right, those with the biggest stick get all the rewards. Instead we have a complex legal and economic framework that discourages negative competitive behaviour (protection rackets, anti-trust, fraud, false advertising, stock manipulation, manipulation of minors, forging money, spamming etc.) and allowing positive competitive behaviour (improvement in product, lowering of price, informative advertising etc.).
Sometimes a more free, competitive market is appropriate, sometimes more coordination and cooperation is appropiate. It all depends on the particular circumstances. Though a powerful tool there is nothing magic about markets and like all tools they don't necessarily give the best result in all circumstances.
---
DRM - Democracy Restriction & Manipulation
"Inside every British person, there is a little monarchist. Inside every German, there is a little anarchist."
Say you want to go from Hollywood to West LA or from the airport to downtown. A bike isn't going to help you. Los Angeles is too spread out. Getting from anywhere to anywhere in Los Angeles takes between one and two hours anytime during the day. And that's in a car. Getting around LA sucks.
My other first post is car post.
In English money that would mean an all day bus pass for just 60p whereas it in fact costs £2.50 or $4.80 ( mind you it can be used on any of the buses in the West Midlands ).
...He smiles and says: "this technology makes us to the premier station-independant city-bike-sytem. the code is unbreakable and we are really proud of"...
Unbreakable, is it? Like banking via BTX?
It's been around for years, I had such mechanisms on my first racing bike in the 80s.
The purpose being quick repairs, you can get the wheel off in seconds, flip the level, turn the nut on the other side of the wheel and lift it off.
Yes some sadles have quick release too, advantage being you probably can drop the saddle down quick if you're off-roading on your mountain bike and don't want the saddle to hit you somewhere sensitive.
Agreed, though I'm more worried about defacement of my bike than theft.
Having been an urban biker for about ten years, I can tell you that having a bike defaced/kicked/smashed/broken/scratched every day is overall much more disheartening than just having one stolen every few years.
It's one thing to know that someone REALLY wanted something you have; It's another to realize how many ignorant morons with stock in the oil companies will kick someone's bike.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
I'm willing to bet that even the "failed" the program was much more successful than most people realize since those "stolen" bikes are probably still providing transportation for people who can't afford much else. One has to adopt a mindset of abundance when evaluating programs like this. If you are stuck on "are people sharing" etc. the program will always be judged a failure as we do not live in a gift economy. "Are some of those bikes useful?" and "Do some people who could not previously afford transportation have it now?" (presumably) state the objectives much better. Unless of course the objective was to provide convenient transportation to a relatively affluent few in which case the program was doomed from the start.
It does sound like a relatively small number of overpriced (for the job) bikes were provided. In my city I can buy a hot mountain bike for $15 so why would I pay anything close for a stolen one-speed POS? If someone can only afford $5 for transportation, maybe they are just a good candidate for a free bike.
Yes. However, that's allowed. One is just temporarily taking public in a non-obtrusive manner for minimal gain. Once one starts a commercial operation essentially stealing these parking spots from others for free retail space they've just lost moral ground in my book.
> If we were to liberate a 'peen nation we'd be
> for getting that body count up as high as
> possible.
>
> So ribbit or cheers or whatever your local
> goodbye is, cause when the GIs roll in to
> liberate your country the only people left alive
> will be the women - and them only till the GIs
> have had their fun.
although many people might agree with you that the american way is not the apex of civilization, americans aren't _that_ barbarian. don't believe the al quaeda propaganda!
[i have an opinion and i am not afraid to use it]
So, other than a firmware update (which I suspect may have to happen to all bikes regularly anyhow), those hackers haven't done any physical damage that can't be easily undone.
Arguably, they have caused revenue loss for the DB from the bikes that were used for free, but since there is no description on how the backdoor works or how it is advertised, I would assume that only a select group of people knows of this.
In the article itself they made some "ethical" decisions (i.e.: not able to grab a currently rented bike, not able to park a freebie without giving a regular customer the chance to phone it in), which indicates that they want to preserve the utility value for regular customers as much as possible.
All in all:
Is this legal ? No siree, definitely not...
Did the hackers do it to get free bikes, or just for the challenge of it? My guess would be the latter.
Is this a nice hack in the spirit of the hackers of the old days? Definitely: this hack required a lot of skill and creativity, for that they deserve some respect.
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
[Zappa]
Perhaps some philosopher could conclude that I've really just abandoned the bikes, and rather than hacking 10% of them, CCC might have done better to hack 100%.
Ah, so without having to think about whether you're stealing from a fellow citizen, you blame it on an unspecified, undefined "philosophy". Ridiculous.
You can't compare the taking you're doing with the Dutch bicycles, because those were intended to be free - here, you're just committing robbery from your neighbor. Everybody leaves bikes locked to public property, everywhere. You just aren't willing to admit that you like being a thief, and only because your victim doesn't get to see or catch you. Because if you did, you'd start stealing from little old ladies, and you'd probably like it too. You have no shame.
Saying that bikes locked to public property are abandoned is absurd - when you park a car on a public street, and lock the doors, you must be abondoning that fine set of wheels, I guess, right? Let me know where you live, and I will come rid the street of your trash!
For the record, Witte Fietsen didn't work because nobody wanted to take responsibility for fixing or replacing broken parts, plus people like you stole the bicycles and painted them other colors.
Big Daddy, Johnny, Burp, Aunt Zelda, Scott, Slurp, Big Momma
These people's "ethics" are laughable.
So stealing for individuals is wrong, but stealing from a big, bad company is okay? This is a great example of moral relativism.
Ha, ha! Nobody ever says Italy.
Maybe they shouldnt ruin the revenue of a enterprise that is providing responsible, ecologically sound transportation.
maybe they can find a way to keep pollution out of the air when this bike-rental goes tits-up (because they were depending on people *NOT* ruining the bikes that were left unattended and in the public).
No, we aren't that barbaric. We don't kill the women. If we did, half of you snotty euros wouldn't be here.
When we rolled through europe during ww2 did you think your grandmothers weren't fucking all those hot young GI's that came through their towns?
Stop all the anti-american BS because you're really our cousins.
Dude, why not use the free open source tool chain for AVR? To quote:
AVR Libc is an open source project whose goal is to provide a high quality C library for use with GCC on Atmel AVR microcontrollers.
Together, avr-binutils, avr-gcc, and avr-libc form the heart of the Opensource toolchain for the Atmel AVR microcontrollers.
They are further accompanied by projects for in-system programming software (uisp, avrdude [formerly avrprog]), simulation (simulavr) and debugging (avr-gdb, AVaRICE).
I use most of the above to program ATmegas under Linux with no problems. But this stuff even runs on Windows, or so I hear.
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Community Bicycle Progams
Even better, many of the programs in the US are free, i.e., they don't charge people to use the bikes. Makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it?
Community Bike Programs
The designer of the lock says, "it can't be broken". This is like waving a red flag (or two) before a bull. Of course, now someone has to actually break it to prove a point.
Call it vandalism, call it theft, call it whatever you want. Basically, the "hackers" were responding to the challenge.
Please, lets not split hairs here. It'll leave us all bald.
I never remove the tire (maybe the wheel) when parking. The tire is the rubber part of the wheel. I have been known to undo the quick-release lever of the front wheel when I forget my lock. A thief breaking his collar bone because the front wheel came off is going to be more obvious than one rolling along a bike with no seat.
Personally, I think the authors went to a lot of trouble to steal the rental bike. I hacksawed one of my own Kryptonite locks (had lost the key) in two minutes.
Speaking of hardware hacks (to try to get back on topic), I missed seeing the great Kryptonite Bic pen hack on Slashdot. I had to read about it in the Washington Post. By way of disclosure, Kryptonite has fixed this and has a new kind of key.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
Computer guys prove yet again that shortsighted and selfish thinking is not exclusive to lawyers and MBAs.
6 cents euro a minute is only 3.60 euro or $4.82 an hour, not exactly breaking the bank here.
The program was a huge success.
Remember kids, bicycles WANT to be free.
Hey, it's a real live literal example of the Free Rider Dilemma.
How much can a system be abused before it collapses? The CCC has determined (correctly) that the threshold is higher than 10%. Illegal, but a nice little math exercise.
This was done at purdue this year, the BoilerBikes. Painted gold, signs that say "free to use, ride at your own risk" etc. And then a girl ran into a bus or something, and they got rid of all of them and gave her a full ride shcolarship to make up FOR HER STUPIDITY.
You call it excessive, I call it ambitious.
What country?
In the US, if you steal a car and go for a ride in it, and then put it back, and they catch you, you go to jail all the same.
what this is an example of is Kant's Categorical Imperative, or a certain portion thereof. this idea is, among other things, a rejection of the idea that whatever produces the greatest happiness is the moral action - an idea still popular today. Kant's idea asserts that, in essence, there are "rules", and there are no exceptions to these rules.
the primary problem with Kant's idea here (or at least with how it's most commonly understood today) is that it seems to discard the importance - or even significance - of circumstances. Kant says it is wrong for someone to steal a loaf of bread to feed her starving family from a baker who won't notice the loss because if everyone stole the world would be chaos; he makes no accommodation for the idea that it's okay for everyone to steal when in those circumstances. moral relativism, by contrast, would simply say it's okay for her to steal as long as she believes it to be. neither (inherently) cares whether the baker is an individual or a multinational corporation.
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
Why couldn't they choose the quite standard way of doing those vulnerabilities publications ?
- Crack the system
- Alert the maker of the system
- Give him time to fix the flaw
- When it's fixed, publish
- More robust system for him, fame for the hacker.
What happens when you ride to a dead spot or the bike's batteries die and you can't logically 'give the bike back'?
In Copenhagen, read about how it works, in here
What is the value they provided to the bikes' owner by meticulously detailing the only security flaw they were able to find? It seems that by reflashing bikes during routine maintenance, the owners could close this hole and prevent future problems.
If they were to contract with a private security firm to verify their systems integrity, I suspect that the costs would exceed the value of a large fraction of the total bike population. And there's no guarantee the "professional" security analysts would uncover the hole.
I don't see how you can call it vandalism, as there is no apparent change to the consumer public -- the bikes remain 100% unchanged in use, only the members of a small group are able to use about 10% of the bikes for free, which I would think is a very small price to pay for what the company received in return.
Theft, perhaps -- but not vandalism.
Yeah, those damn perv. seat sniffers - I hate them!
You're RENTING a bike. For $3.60 an hour. How is that expensive? That's less than a third the hourly price bike rentals are around here in Montreal.
I have been known to undo the quick-release lever of the front wheel when I forget my lock. A thief breaking his collar bone because the front wheel came off is going to be more obvious than one rolling along a bike with no seat.
That was great, I really laughed out loud. I almost wish your bike had been stolen to put a bike thief out of comission.
Shortly before I started university someone had been going around loosening the front wheel on people's bikes as an act of vandalism, so when I started there were warnings every to check your wheel.
Boulder Colorado has a free bike program. Just like Texas A&M - according to one comment. Boulder bought up used bicycles painted them green and set them around town. Anyone can grab a green unlocked bike and ride it to wherever they want. Once you're done with your ride you have to leave the bike in plain site so someone else can find it.
Joseph Elwell.
One of the reasons, I surmise, that this rent-a-bike concept may not work here in the US is because of local mandatory helmet laws. I don't know about the European laws. However, I can see why in Europe, helmet use is less of a concern---less cars on the street, more pedestrians, more public transportation-friendly, shorter distances needed to travel from point A to point B. But here in the US, with the SUVs sharing the streets, helmets are a must. And to implement a rent-a-bike system would also mean co-implementation of rent-a-helmet program. But that adds the difficulty of renting the right helmet size, and putting on a helmet that a previous (sweaty) biker was using. So how is the use of helmets handled in Europe anyway?
Linux at home
A thief breaking his collar bone because the front wheel came off is going to be more obvious than one rolling along a bike with no seat. True, but you're forgetting something: this is the U.S. we're talking about - the land where people can sue you because they spilled coffee on their laps or because they were injured while breaking into your house. A thief breaking his collarbone may be more obvious, but he may very well be more expensive in the long run, too.
Laughter is the best medicine, but in certain situations the Heimlich maneuver may be more appropriate.
>> . I think, though, that fears of seat theft are exaggerated statistics are a funny thing. i have had two seats stolen, in broad daylight. the bright side is that it is very good exercise to ride a seatless bike.
statistics are a funny thing
I have had 2 seats stolen in the last 10 years
the bright side is that it is excellent exercise to ride a seatless bike
Actually, that depends on where you are in the US. I've been reading up on the definition of auto theft in various states, and I've found some very surprising things. The only consistent part is that, if you take a car with no intention of returning it, it's auto theft. Joyriding is not neccessarily a crime.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Thanks too for not chewing me out after I posted. I should never post when under the influence of emotion when I felt so powerless. Basically I went through a diatribe just to say they likely didn't set the security bit for the same reason I couldn't set it - and how much trouble for their company this little lack of understanding cost them.
When I read the article on how this was hacked, I could only relate to their designer and the pressure he was under to generate and release the design - and my own frustration over my failure to get my system to work the way I want it to.
Having their PR department bragging about "unbreakable security", didn't help matters one bit. There are mountain climbers out there, and they *will* climb any mountain, regardless of effort. I am sure their designer knew of the security bit - the standard AVR studio software supplied by ATMEL very obviously displays the status of the lock bits... but what isn't obvious at all is how to change them using their software. It looks like a standard "check box" type form, but clicking on the box ( on my system ) does nothing. So the "check boxes" appear to only display, not change, the state the lock bits and other "fuses" are set to during the programming step.
I could not see any reason not to set the lock bit. Only thing the lock bit means is the channel to read the flash back is disabled. It does not ruin the device against future reuse, it just means the only way to get the device to accept new programming is to clear the whole flash area and reload. I thought ATMEL's hardware designers did a super job on this, as it looked like I could develop really secure apps on this chip, without hindering in the least my ability to upgrade using the 10-pin ISP connector ( albeit I would probably use a slightly different design just to frustrate hacking - but anyone understanding how the MOSI and MISO signals worked would probably fish right through it.)
I would love to follow some of the above AC's advice, but I got burned really bad once when I specified proprietary software for a client once and the software became unsupported - and he had to re-do the whole thing. Neither my ex-client nor I ever forgot that painful and expensive lesson. Many of the things I set up end up being in production and support for many years - such as some industrial motor controllers I did using the 68000, which were designed 15 years ago. My client still supports this product. I can still go in and do custom tweaks, and so can anybody else. I don't see longevity of design and support with software designed around ephemeral standards requiring certain versions of OS configured certain ways to run.
I am quite sure the designer, as the result of this experience, will become as persnikety as I am over the importance of robust design. Here he went and designed this fancy software lock, then delivered it unlocked.
Kinda sobering what some of the AC's mentioned about me to quit whining and just do whatever I am told to do. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
No problem; just put an appropriate warning label on the bike.
All your bikes are belong to us
"Your bike (XP) has been infected with the bikesky virus. All your spokes are belong to us!! Bwhahahaha!"
Oh, and can it run li..
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
"A thief breaking his collarbone may be more obvious, but he may very well be more expensive in the long run, too."
Hmp. I'd say, "Prove to me that I loosened the bolt. Mr Goodwrench here was the one with the tool kit. Maybe he likes to experiment with minimalism."
AC Wrote: In the USA it would be called vandalism and theft of service.
Yep, perhaps it would.
Glad to see you really believe in your convictions, hiding behind AC and all.
Some people are like slinkies--basically useless but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
I've never quite followed this free-speech and free-beer thing very well. Speech is free where I'm at, relatively speaking anyway, but you can bet your ass that beer is NOT free.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
"If you "borrow" the bike you are effectively preventing a possible usage by a paying customer."
If I rent the bike, I am also preventing a possible usage by another paying customer. As a matter of fact, there are dozens of ways I may prevent possible usage. The reason it is not a clear-cut case of stealing, is because DB made the bikes available so that they could be used. The general public has no contract with DB stating which uses are valid and which are not.
Some ten or twenty years ago, supermarkets over here had a huge problem with trolleys being taken home and being used there for whatever purposes. When is taking home stealing? Who decides that?
Well, finding some of the stolen bikes should be easy. as the article says, the dispatch has a database of where each bike is supposed to be, e.g. bike 0001 is in station X, because the customer tells them where they've been parked. But if one of the hackers unlock the bike from X and takes it to station Y, and then an ordinary user calls up and says "I'm at station Y, I'd like to use the bike 0001, can I have its code please?", the dispatch would see the conflict -- Database says the bike's at station X, but caller says it's at station Y -- and they would know the bike's been moved illegally.
Of course if the customer just says "I'm at station Y, can you give me a bike (tell me the number) and what is the code for it?", the dispatch wouldn't give the customer bike 0001, because 0001 isn't at Y in the DB. OTOH, if they're at X, and dispatch says "take 0001" and customer says "but there's no 0001" here, that's also a hint of trouble there.
Then again, if a hacker just takes a bike from home (X) to go to work (Y) and back again (X) everyday, there's very little chance of him getting caught.
Also, I wonder if they can use the DB inconsistencies to triangulate where the hacker might be located, because I assume they'd just take bikes from stations near their place of operation. Although of course hacked bikes can show up all over the place after being used by many people, so, well, interesting mind-exercise there.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Nah, they'll go after the manufacturer. My bikes were built without the "lawyer tabs" that come on most bikes equipped with quick-release wheels. The lawyer tabs are a pain-in-the-neck innovation to prevent improperly fastened wheels from coming off, probably because lawyers have made lots of money that way.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
It's one of those things that can bite you in the rear. I once rode about five miles with my front wheel unfastened, and I STILL thaink my lucky stars that the wheel didn't come off on me.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
I believe in bicycles as an alternative form of transportation (healthy, convenient, and good excercise). I appluad this company for what they are doing, making these bikes available to the public, and it seems like they are providing a good service for a reasonable price. I wish that we would see that type of thing in North America. So it angers me that these hackers are undermining a company that is trying to do something positive. If they want to hack something, they should find a big evil profit-mongering corporation to hack from!
Would be amusing to see some references:-)
Head over to findlaw.com and check out the various state legal codes. IIRC, Colorado is one of those with legal joyriding.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
"What if I came by your home one night took you car to joy-ride in it and then returned it a week later."
My car is not available for public use, not even if people push coins through the radiator. It is not being advertised as being available for public use. I am not 'stealing' public space by parking 1700 cars all over town.
Anyway, a lot of human behaviour is not regulated, or vaguely so. This is A Good Thing, but undoubtedly also an affront to the likes of you, who would like clear, black and white lines for every conceivable situation. I happen to believe that the likes of you are also the most likely to commit the crimes you suspect others of. You will get what you wish for.
This is such a sad misconception. Subsistence living actually left more time free for recreation than our "gotta work for my dreams" modern economy. Just a quick look around finds http://anthro.palomar.edu/subsistence/sub_6.htm. Here's a choice quote:
"In the United States, only . 84% of the entire population are still farmers. Those farmers not only provide food and fiber for all of the non-food-producing Americans but also for millions of people elsewhere in the world. It is ironic, that this dramatically increased food production has not resulted in more leisure time. Far from it, Americans now individually work more hours during the year than almost all other nations."
I'm not saying that there are not advantages to the society we live in (be it the United States, Europe, Japan, whatever), I'm just saying that the "uncivilized" didn't really have it as bad as "civilized" people are conditioned to believe.
Some jerk off moderated this as a TROLL. Anyone care to explain how that's TROLLING, showing that the editors posting the stories are obviously promoting the theft of products and services!
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Or alternatively, since it's only one bike in ten, just live with it.
There is a specific law for this, at least in the UK. For quite a long time there wasn't, so if a car was "borrowed" in the way you describe that was not technically not illegal. If it was "Theft with Intent to Permanently Deprive" then it was stolen.
Another lame "blame the SUV" post. Check reality and you'll find that the rise of helmet laws predates the rise of the SUV. Note I specifically say "the rise of". The SUV itself dates back some 80 years.
...no state has a universal bicycle helmet law. Only 17 states and the District of Columbia have statewide bicycle helmet laws, and they apply only to young riders. Local ordinances in a few states require bicycle helmets for some or all riders.
Simple logic really. If the SUV rise comes after the helmet law rise, then SUVs can not be the blame unless you want to claim the lawmakers and the lobbyists behind them had clairovoyance to see the rise of the SUV. According to the link you posted, the laws basically began in the early 1990's. Yet the SUV as a significant percentage of vehicles sold (unless you want to count minivans!) did not occur until the late 1990's.
And of course, reality also shows us that there is no pervasive helmet laws in the US. According to
http://www.gwrra.org/helmetlaws.html :
And finally, according to both my link and your link these laws are nearly universally aimed at children, not adults. Further, many of these laws also contain provisions for mandating the use of helmets when roller skating -- in particular inline skates. In my experience most "rollerblading" is not done out where the big mean SUVs roam, but on boardwalks and other off-the-road places.
Thus, your premise that this would not work in the is unfounded by your own evidence. I will stipulate that it would likely not work in several particular cities such as Seattle. Though that is due to the steep roads you'll find there and in many west coastal cities. It likely would not work in the southern states because of the temperatures there. Europe's recent heat wave was generally met with an raised eyebrow of "you call that hot" by many in the SW United States. I actually had to explain to people in the northern US that Europe generally doesn't see temperatures that we get routinely in the summer "up here".
So yes there are valid reasons it may not be very successful here in the US, but the SUV is not one of them.
And the real reason for the laws is not due to cars at all, but in most cases due to nannys who failed to impress upon their children the importance fo safety and then lost them when their own children were not doing what the law would theoretically had them do. We need to quit using the law as compensation for not teaching our own children responsible behaviour.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.